Ive been reading through the 40k wiki recently and have found apart from orks tyrands and chaos, humans seem to be the bad guys, often killing before even trying to contact races and killing even when peace is proposed.
liam10191 wrote: Ive been reading through the 40k wiki recently and have found apart from orks tyrands and chaos, humans seem to be the bad guys, often killing before even trying to contact races and killing even when peace is proposed.
Your thoughts on this?
In 40k, the only races that have survived in the Galaxy are those that have been agressive enough to hold their own.
While there are peaceful races, none of them last very long. Because eventually they get conquored by Orks, raided by Dark Eldar, subverted by Chaos, or had other unmentional things done by any of the other myriad hostile races out there.
Mankind has learned to be very paranoid. Aliens are almost always trouble, better stamp em out good before they get the chance to hurt you.
Case in point: Tau.
Several thousand years ago, an Imperial survey ship discovered the planet that would later be the capital of the Tau Empire.
The Tau were very primative at the time, having only barely discovered Fire.
The planet was slated for colonization and several colony ships were dispatched. They were destroyed by a warp storm that blanketed the area, making further attempts at colonization impossable. And so the area was forgotten.
A couple thousand years passed and, due to some fluke of the Warp Storm, the Tau had advanced to the point of having Interplanetary travel capabilities. As well as being enough of a military threat to warrent an Imperial retaliation.
The Imperium knows this is what happens if you leave Xenos alone. Thus they are always exterminated unless some value can be found for them.
If war crimes, tyranny, and genocide are grayscale, sure.
Depends. If they are done against Aliens, are they truly warcrimes/genocide?
Those things only apply to things with human rights. The key word being Human.
They are not human, so they cannot have human rights.
Even more so when the aliens in question are just as hostile as you are, or even more so.
Eldar view humans as nothing more than animals, and would gladly slaughter billions of humans to save a single Eldar life, soulstone, or for a bit of a laugh and because they need to do it to avoid getting soulmunched by a ravenous warp diety.
Scipio Africanus wrote: Most major SM chapters are considered good guys. UM and BA are good guys.
Wait what?? I guess you could say that if you AREN'T one of the countless civilizations that these chapters have exterminated over the centuries. Just because you wear bright colors like superman doesn't mean you aren't an evil bastard.
The answer to this is actually the essence of what makes a setting GrimDark (which, for the record is more a style of black humour/parody than something you play straight).
Basically, in any setting that is so horrible where the best you can muster for the forces of good are, say, the Imperium of Man (or for another example the Judges of the Hall of Justice); then you know you have a crapsack world.
That's part of the central humour of the 40k setting. The humans are the goodguys, because even though they are intolerant, genocidal xenophobes; they are still heads and tails over almost every other faction.
This is part of why I hope they change the Tau up a little, because they kind of ruin the joke if they keep them as shining paragons of justice (or at least less tarnished than the IoM). But luckily the subtext of them being a depraved, Orwellian dystopia seems to be closer to the mark these days (now they just need to play down the naivete a tad more).
The setting is funnier when the Imperium are the good guys. If that ever ceases to be true then the setting will have drifted to far from proper GrimDark. Never play GrimDark straight, never.
In a lot of ways it is a fairly British thing and I enjoy 40k's overblown GrimDark for the same reason I love Judge Dredd. In any other setting the progtagonists of these properties would be the villains, they would be the evil empire that everyone boos. But in the settings they exist in we cheer for them only because the alternatives are worse. They would both loose something if the jack-boot pressed against the throat of the downtrodden were also the shining hero everyone roots for. Because it is all played for humour it just ends up making it even darker when you think about it.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: In 40k, everyone is the bad guy. Humanity is simply one of the most dickish races.
Fixed that for you.
The other races aren't nice either, to be sure, but when it comes to blind, bigoted asshattery the IOM has every other gakker beat.
Eldar run a close second, but at least they know how to party
To OP: Humans are the bad guys. So are everyone else, except maybe the Tau, but who cares about them.. They're nice... and not into mind control hoodoo at all.. nooo my precious...
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Grey Templar wrote: Well, its more like the Imperium is the good guys because they're human. And we here on Earth are humans. So naturally we root for our species.
When extinction is on the line, you gotta go with your species. And its your duty to make sure your species continues
Given what we do to each other on a daily basis, and doubly so for in the 41st millenium, i'm not rooting for Humanity. Orks are a good deal more humane, and given what Humanity's turned into in 40k they're better off extinct.
As they put it in Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country
Inalienable. Human Rights. The very name is racist..
Sorry if you can't watch, this is from my phone, hence youtube mobile, otherwise just look up "are we the baddies"
Yes everyone is evil except the Big E but he's dead so he doesn't count... Basically GrimDark is usually told following the story of the last hope of humanity but unfortunately the character is flawed in one way or another and everyone hates him and whenever the story has an upturn and you start to reach the end it suddenly gets much much worse, worse than you can imagine then a miracle and things get better for a bit but its all gilded and was secretly leading to an even worse problem.
If you have any questions read the manga "Berserk" it's amazing and so GrimDark
Oh the Tau are definitely the bad guys, they just don't really know it. Have you ever heard the saying, "The path to hell is paved with good intentions."? There seems to be some sort of warp entity guiding them along to a specific goal (which warp entities being what they are is usually a bad thing) (I think they are the ultimate tongue in check joke of this darkgrim comedy)
Sure humans are the "good guy" if you are A) a human and B) a terran and C) NOT a psyker if yuou are all three then, yes they are good guys. Just like CWE are the good guys to CWE, to everybody else they are the ultimate dicks.
Orks are good guys to everyone. They gives yus da dakka, yus no like the dakka?
DE are also really nice, you were into the entire S&M scene, right? You never said the safety word so we thought you were.
Ronin_eX wrote: The answer to this is actually the essence of what makes a setting GrimDark (which, for the record is more a style of black humour/parody than something you play straight).
Basically, in any setting that is so horrible where the best you can muster for the forces of good are, say, the Imperium of Man (or for another example the Judges of the Hall of Justice); then you know you have a crapsack world.
That's part of the central humour of the 40k setting. The humans are the goodguys, because even though they are intolerant, genocidal xenophobes; they are still heads and tails over almost every other faction.
This is part of why I hope they change the Tau up a little, because they kind of ruin the joke if they keep them as shining paragons of justice (or at least less tarnished than the IoM). But luckily the subtext of them being a depraved, Orwellian dystopia seems to be closer to the mark these days (now they just need to play down the naivete a tad more).
The setting is funnier when the Imperium are the good guys. If that ever ceases to be true then the setting will have drifted to far from proper GrimDark. Never play GrimDark straight, never.
In a lot of ways it is a fairly British thing and I enjoy 40k's overblown GrimDark for the same reason I love Judge Dredd. In any other setting the progtagonists of these properties would be the villains, they would be the evil empire that everyone boos. But in the settings they exist in we cheer for them only because the alternatives are worse. They would both loose something if the jack-boot pressed against the throat of the downtrodden were also the shining hero everyone roots for. Because it is all played for humour it just ends up making it even darker when you think about it.
I agree with this statement reallly adds to the game when the hero in the end really is not a hero, but is the only one out there that is worth cheering for.
Depends. If they are done against Aliens, are they truly warcrimes/genocide?
Those things only apply to things with human rights. The key word being Human.
They are not human, so they cannot have human rights.
Even more so when the aliens in question are just as hostile as you are, or even more so.
Eldar view humans as nothing more than animals, and would gladly slaughter billions of humans to save a single Eldar life, soulstone, or for a bit of a laugh and because they need to do it to avoid getting soulmunched by a ravenous warp diety.
You make it seem as if the imperium would never commit genocide on a massive scale of humans At least the tau have the decency to let you live out the rest of your life in peace after they take over... They just quietly sterilize everyone
Depends. If they are done against Aliens, are they truly warcrimes/genocide?
Those things only apply to things with human rights. The key word being Human.
They are not human, so they cannot have human rights.
There's no reason humans would have any rights that Eldar or Tau are not entitled to. To say different is just random nonsense - like saying warcrimes only apply to things with blonde rights, and as redheads are not blonde, they cannot have blonde rights. It's just a bizarre, irrational statement.
Rights war crimes, and genocide are all made up categories we apply based on parameters we created. I doubt any of the three are things anyone in the 40k universe care about at all, and certainly not the Imperium of man... but if we are going to make use of those categories at all, we are going to have to come up with some kind of rational framework for talking about them. Saying you can commit war crimes against only sentient beings might make sense, but saying you can only make them against humans would be almost impossible to make logically coherent. You'd just end up with some kind of circular gibberish...
We do not slaughter humans because a war crime is wrong;
and a war crime is wrong because it slaughters humans.
The question of if humans are the bad guys is purely a case of perspective. If you were a human born in that time then you'd be raised to believe your the good guys. Of course, we're looking at that universe with the eyes from this timeframe and applying our own values to it.
Depends. If they are done against Aliens, are they truly warcrimes/genocide?
Those things only apply to things with human rights. The key word being Human.
They are not human, so they cannot have human rights.
There's no reason humans would have any rights that Eldar or Tau are not entitled to. To say different is just random nonsense - like saying warcrimes only apply to things with blonde rights, and as redheads are not blonde, they cannot have blonde rights. It's just a bizarre, irrational statement.
Rights war crimes, and genocide are all made up categories we apply based on parameters we created. I doubt any of the three are things anyone in the 40k universe care about at all, and certainly not the Imperium of man... but if we are going to make use of those categories at all, we are going to have to come up with some kind of rational framework for talking about them. Saying you can commit war crimes against only sentient beings might make sense, but saying you can only make them against humans would be almost impossible to make logically coherent. You'd just end up with some kind of circular gibberish...
We do not slaughter humans because a war crime is wrong;
and a war crime is wrong because it slaughters humans.
You seem to be equating the differences of Humans and Aliens to the purely cosmetic differences between different human individuals.
Redhead, Blonde, Black, White, etc...
All are Humans. Eldar are not Humans. Orks are not Humans. Tau are not Humans. etc...
Saying they have the same rights as humans is just as absurd as saying a dog or a cow has the same rights as a human. They cannot have the same rights, they arn't Human.
Humans are certainly the bad guys, epically towards other humans.
Think about it, the IoM enslaves entire sectors of the galaxy to its way of life, where the vast majority of humans are worked to death in appalling conditions, civil liberties and freedom of expression are seen as heresy, the environment is totally populated and toxic towards life, social mobility is none existence and all citizens must worship the God Emperor with fanatic zeal or face punishment.
That is saying nothing about the IG and its treatment of the cannon fodder.
When you consider that, Xenos are lucky they only get shot.
Jokaero are barely sentient (I could just as easily say dogs are morally good) and the Watchers don't really do anything... I mean they watch things i guess...
People are gonna hate me for this but, think of the IoM as the germans and hittler. In ww2 hitler wanted his people to live in peace and blamed the rest of the world. He thought the only way for peace was world domination. To the german people he was a hero his acts were noble and valorius, and in reality what he wanted would have worked. Now look a the iom same thing, the big E wants the human race to live in peace and in his eyes the only way is complete destruction of non humans, so it depends on how you look at it imo they are the good guys...in the eyes of humans, but if you want to know the true lawful good faction thats the tau
Backspacehacker wrote: People are gonna hate me for this but, think of the IoM as the germans and hittler. In ww2 hitler wanted his people to live in peace and blamed the rest of the world. He thought the only way for peace was world domination. To the german people he was a hero his acts were noble and valorius, and in reality what he wanted would have worked. Now look a the iom same thing, the big E wants the human race to live in peace and in his eyes the only way is complete destruction of non humans, so it depends on how you look at it imo they are the good guys...in the eyes of humans, but if you want to know the true lawful good faction thats the tau
I was with you until you said tau were good. They're just as bad as everyone else, they just smile a lot more and whine a lot less.
If war crimes, tyranny, and genocide are grayscale, sure.
I think when they say "grimdark" they don't mean "grayscale," I think they mean grimdark.
History is written by the victors. As there is no United Federation of Planets or any similar organization to pass judgement on the various factions, there are no war-crimes committed by the Imperium (or any other faction, for that matter). It is at war for its very survival, and thus there is no atrocity too great, no enemy kill-count too high, no weapon too terrible, that it cannot be used.
CrowSplat wrote:Wait what?? I guess you could say that if you AREN'T one of the countless civilizations that these chapters have exterminated over the centuries. Just because you wear bright colors like superman doesn't mean you aren't an evil bastard.
Those civilizations failed to worship the God-Emperor properly, or failed to stand by the Imperium (much the same thing, really). They had it coming.
The world of 40K is pretty freaking grimdark. Looking at fluff of all the major factions/races, I'd have to say that Tau and Ork are the least "evil/badguyish."
Tau are generally considered the least grimdark of all the factions, and, though I don't know all that much about them, I'd say they're definitely not as bad as humanity in general.
Orks are not "bad guys," they are simply doing what their race was programmed to do, and they are no more bad guys than a predator is a bad guy for hunting its prey. They're only "bad" in that they don't take remorse in destruction, though that's mostly because they pretty much run purely on instinct in that regard.
In any case, humans are just as antagonistic as most factions in 40K. This doesn't make them the bad guys. Just remember, they are in fact sometimes considered "Catholic Space Nazis."
Mankind does the horrible things it does because it has to in order to survive. If they don't work everyone 15 hours a day in war factories, Xenos exterminate Mankind. Psykers are executed because the risk of having a walking nuclear bomb around in a metropolitan area that is likely hearing voices in his head (that are not only real, but malevolent) is too great. The Commisar executes the Guardsman who tries to retreat not out of malice, but because the Commisar has decided that the number of lives that will be saved by holding the position just a little bit longer outweighs the life of that one Guardsman.
xSPYXEx wrote: There is no "good" or "evil" in Warhammer. Everyone is equally guilty.
Well, that's not true at all.
The correct quote is that there is no innocence, only degrees of guilt. Chaos is definitely more evil than the Imperium. The Dark Eldar are significantly more evil than the Tau.
Grey Templar wrote: Well, its more like the Imperium is the good guys because they're human. And we here on Earth are humans. So naturally we root for our species.
When extinction is on the line, you gotta go with your species. And its your duty to make sure your species continues
I challenge that!
I may be on the side of humans, but there are many human factions.
The IG represent the common man - these are the general good guys. And they get stomped. A lot. Even by their own kind. Because that's what happens to good guys.
The SM are the superheroes - but will happily wipe out the common man for very little reason, and when you get down to it, they're all very close to being the supervillans. This is because they have a very nazi ideal as to what a human is - if you're not the perfect man, they won't give two sh*ts about you.
The sisters of battle can only be seen as "good" if you subscribe to their religion, and if you don't, they're just as bad as the SM.
Same goes for the Inquisition. And GK.
Then we have the forces of chaos (traitor marines and humans, not the daemons). All they want iss to free you to be able to do whatever you want. You will only be punished if someone decides you are in their way of having fun. They promote freedom (sort of). These are the REAL good guys, and yet somehow with a dark undertone of depraved evil.
The deeper you go, the more confusing the morality gets...
Because absolute, unrestricted freedom rather rapidly degenerates into anarchy, which quickly gives rise to either despotism or annihilation. There is no "middle ground" with Chaos, it's a study of extremes.
Psienesis wrote: Because absolute, unrestricted freedom rather rapidly degenerates into anarchy, which quickly gives rise to either despotism or annihilation. There is no "middle ground" with Chaos, it's a study of extremes.
Yep, and that's why they're my favourite - one day the noise marines are preaching the healing power of music, the next they're an*l-raping you in front of everybody, whilst being whipped to a bloody death by a worshiper of khorne.
Backspacehacker wrote: but if you want to know the true lawful good faction thats the tau
And how is sterilization of conquered population, mind control and conquest and aggression against anyone who doesn't want to join Grater Good Lawful Good exactly?
Tau are Lawful Evil at best, the best example of Lawful Good in 40k are Ultramarines, Sisters of Battle, Space Wolves and various other independent characters.
Still, they are the closes thing to good guys in 40k, especially the Ultramarines.
And who cares if the yare like that toward aliens? LIke Orks, Dark Eldar, Eldar adn other xenos should deserve compassion after all that have done to Mankind.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: Still, they are the closes thing to good guys in 40k, especially the Ultramarines.
And who cares if the yare like that toward aliens? LIke Orks, Dark Eldar, Eldar adn other xenos should deserve compassion after all that have done to Mankind.
Actually, I was referring (partly) to what they do to humans. If you step out of line, even by accident, for a tiny fraction of a second, for even a very minor thing, they don't hesitate to kill you.
In instances where a human colony has been left alone long enough to start evolving, they get called mutants, and a Space Marines job description is "Kill all heretics, aliens and mutants".
Humans can even be called heretics simply for learning too much about technology etc.
Backspacehacker wrote: People are gonna hate me for this but, think of the IoM as the germans and hittler. In ww2 hitler wanted his people to live in peace and blamed the rest of the world. He thought the only way for peace was world domination. To the german people he was a hero his acts were noble and valorius, and in reality what he wanted would have worked. Now look a the iom same thing, the big E wants the human race to live in peace and in his eyes the only way is complete destruction of non humans, so it depends on how you look at it imo they are the good guys...in the eyes of humans, but if you want to know the true lawful good faction thats the tau
Actually, I was referring (partly) to what they do to humans.
What to say? It's big galaxy and bad things happen, many of them don't end with happy ending. But they don't attack the lost colonies immediately, they offered them to join the Imperium first. And most of the time the one who refuse are Hitler-liek dictators who won't let go their power. If the colony is infested with mutants who can harn Humans and forbidden technology ( liek certain AI's ) of course they will attack them because they know the alternative ( mutants brought down a LOT of Human worlds during the Age of Strife and Humans already and one was before because of high developed technology that have they barely won ). The Imperium today is a result of 30.000 years of Human history that consisted of many Human-alien wars, mutant attacks one one major AI uprising, can you really blaim them for being like that after surviving all that. We would be like them if the same happened to us.
To the OP, to sum it up - Humans are as much evil as other races are. Galaxy in 41'st millennium is one big arena and all races fight for their own survival. Mankind being pressed the most of all the others. To us they look evil, but if we were in their situation we would act exactly the same.
How can the Ultramarines be the Good Guys? That is like saying the SS were the good guys. UM fallow the Emperor who in my opinion is the worst person ever. He is Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Kahn and every other person who is considered evil all rolled into one.
He wanted to "reunify" the human empire or what ever it was called then (I forget) so after 1000s of years being away from the Imperium because of warp storms, and you have founded your own way of life, and low and behold the Emperor comes and says to join him or die, (just like the Tau) if you refuse, he destroys yous until you submit or perish.
So no, the UM are not the good guys at all. The Imperium is not the good guys,
Chaos is not the Good guys.
Tau are not the Good guys. It's either Join the Greater Good or perish.
SoB are not the good girls because they fallow the Emperor.
IG are not the good guys because they fallow the Emperor.
Orks are not the Good guys because they love War just to fight.
Necrons are not the Good guys.
Don't know much about Eldar, so not sure if they would live in peace with Humans or Tau or anyone else. From what people said in this thread, I guess they are not good either.
Dark Eldar, are not good guys either.
If anything, Tyranids are just Neutral. They are not evil or Good, They just want to survive. Just like how the Lion or any wild animals kills to eat and survive.
In this universe, there are no good/bad guys. Just those who are able to survive and dominate They all have their own way of going about it. Wether to enslave the galaxy, purge it, or devour it. Some may seem better then the other, but when you look at the reason, and the side effect they all end up at least in the grey zone. One man's victory is another man (xeno/daemon/ideology's) defeat.
But I'm rooting for humans, cuz I is one, FER DA EMPRA!
The Emperor created the Great Crusade knowing all these horrible things would happen to people that wouldn't join, but he didn't take any joy out of the fact. He felt plenty of guilt, but he did it because he knew a unified, secular human empire forged in blood was preferable to the alternative.
Yeah, humans do some pretty terrible things in 40k. But my favorite quote about anything in 40k is about Exterminatus, and I think sums up 40k pretty well:
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand know that you have no right to let them live."
Nivek5150 wrote: The Emperor created the Great Crusade knowing all these horrible things would happen to people that wouldn't join, but he didn't take any joy out of the fact. He felt plenty of guilt, but he did it because he knew a unified, secular human empire forged in blood was preferable to the alternative.
Yeah, humans do some pretty terrible things in 40k. But my favorite quote about anything in 40k is about Exterminatus, and I think sums up 40k pretty well:
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand know that you have no right to let them live."
When has the Emperor ever expressed guilt for any of the atrocities he committed?
You seem to be equating the differences of Humans and Aliens to the purely cosmetic differences between different human individuals.
Redhead, Blonde, Black, White, etc...
All are Humans. Eldar are not Humans. Orks are not Humans. Tau are not Humans. etc...
Saying they have the same rights as humans is just as absurd as saying a dog or a cow has the same rights as a human. They cannot have the same rights, they arn't Human.
I'm doing no such thing. I am saying that it is completely impossible to make a rational argument that simply by belonging to the category "human" something has access to certain rights. It's not even wrong, it's just gibberish.
Your argument form works as well for a cow or dog as it does for a human... "Humans are not cows. Dogs are not cows. Humans and dogs cannot have the same rights, as they are not cows."
But why would you give a cow rights? Why would you give humans rights? Is it simply because "human" is the only animal with those letters in that order? Because if not, you are going to have to resort to categories outside of the word "human". If humans have rights because they are sentient, then so do Tau and Eldar. If humans have rights because they are bipeds, then so do Tau, Elder, Orks, and Chickens. If humans have rights because they exactly match the proportions and genetic code of their ancestors, then Imperial Guard have rights but Space Marines, Ogryn and Squats do not.
If you want to discuss rights, you need to define what rights are, and further what categories and traits confer them. Until that point, my argument that humans do not get rights because they are not cows is just as good as your argument that cows do not get rights because they are not human.
The nature of what can be considered 'Good' is pretty deep philosophy and as previously mentioned you can't judge aliens by human values, after all they are 'alien' .
As a test, Id ask: so everyone has to fight wars to survive, I mean, its a mean universe so its kill or be killed right? But who kills more than they need to? Are they cruel about it?
I'd rank it this way:
a- Kills indiscriminately, for fun and tortures to boot
CSM/Daemons
Dark Eldar
b- kills to ensure survival but is perhaps a bit thorough
Mankind
Necrons
c- Kills instinctively, little free will
Orks
Tyranids
d- Kills only when necessary
Eldar
Tau
That's my angle on it, there is also a couple of other ways you could judge who is good, for example which faction exercises the greatest acts of Altruism; that is, who helps another race out at cost to themselves? (immediately that won't work because even Dark Eldar, who are one of the most genocidal factions helped out Eldar, even if just because they found their ventures into 'necromancy' with Wraith constructs interesting).
Also it is said the merit of a society can be judged by how well they care for their most vulnerable. Mankind certainly has no time for their worst off, unless they're valuable warriors, of course. The Necron make sure everyone is shiny and in fully working order. I'd say Eldar are pretty much best here, craftworlds actually sound like pretty nice places to be.
What about how fair and just each society is? What personal liberties are there? How about votes and democracy? The Imperium is a totalitarian dictatorship, so pretty much worst there. At least Chaos and Orks are meritocracies, even if it is only by who is biggest/strongest/most brutal. Are Dark Eldar Kabals monarchies? Thats the impression I got, certainly Commorragh is mostly anarchy so you can do what you want, unless you're a slave of course. Again, I get the feeling that Tau and Eldar are top here.
Those are just some of my thoughts on the matter, as said many times in 40k there isn't really any true 'good', but this a positive thing because there isn't really a true 'good' in real life either.
Humanity has learned what it has to do to survive, ethics is a long gone argument. They know mutants can't be trusted and are signs of bad things, execute them. They know untrained psykers can kill and reek havoc upon the populace, so they hunt them down. They know the dangers of chaos and the aliens influence, so the Inquisition stamps it out. It may come across as 'evil' and 'wrong' but if they didn't do those things they would be ripped apart by chaos xenos and themselves.
To quote Bane
A necessary evil
Without it humanity would of been crushed by the galaxy's inhabitants
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: Humanity has learned what it has to do to survive, ethics is a long gone argument. They know mutants can't be trusted and are signs of bad things, execute them. They know untrained psykers can kill and reek havoc upon the populace, so they hunt them down. They know the dangers of chaos and the aliens influence, so the Inquisition stamps it out. It may come across as 'evil' and 'wrong' but if they didn't do those things they would be ripped apart by chaos xenos and themselves.
To quote Bane
A necessary evil
Without it humanity would of been crushed by the galaxy's inhabitants
liam10191 wrote: Ive been reading through the 40k wiki recently and have found apart from orks tyrands and chaos, humans seem to be the bad guys, often killing before even trying to contact races and killing even when peace is proposed.
Your thoughts on this?
You may as well say "is 1 actually not 1?"
Seriously that's a rediculous thing to say. Our morality is based upon what is beneficial for our society as a whole - the triumph of humanity is good, despite the modern fascination with the death of innocents. People die, get over it.
liam10191 wrote: Ive been reading through the 40k wiki recently and have found apart from orks tyrands and chaos, humans seem to be the bad guys, often killing before even trying to contact races and killing even when peace is proposed.
Your thoughts on this?
You may as well say "is 1 actually not 1?"
Seriously that's a rediculous thing to say. Our morality is based upon what is beneficial for our society as a whole - the triumph of humanity is good, despite the modern fascination with the death of innocents. People die, get over it.
What i was saying is that the races i stated above seemed more evil, hence "apart from...... humans seem to be..."
BryllCream wrote: Our morality is based upon what is beneficial for our society as a whole - the triumph of humanity is good
That's oversimplifying things, 21st century society would benefit from 50% of the worlds population being wiped out right now, doesn't make it morally right.
BryllCream wrote: Our morality is based upon what is beneficial for our society as a whole - the triumph of humanity is good
That's oversimplifying things, 21st century society would benefit from 50% of the worlds population being wiped out right now, doesn't make it morally right.
I Agree, Hitler was trying to better the human race by only accepting "pure" traits, but was that good?
There's no such thing as good or bad in 40k. The setting isn't even about good vs. evil or right vs. wrong, it's about bad vs. worse. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a xenophobe by nature, but in 40k, it's hard if not outright impossible to sympathize with xenos. Even the Tau, who many claim are the 'good guys' of 40k, remind me of the Batarians from Mass Effect with their caste system, slave/client races, and rumored use of information control and propaganda. These are the 'good guys'? Nice try. They're on the same level as everyone else in the setting.
Ronin_eX wrote: The answer to this is actually the essence of what makes a setting GrimDark (which, for the record is more a style of black humour/parody than something you play straight).
Basically, in any setting that is so horrible where the best you can muster for the forces of good are, say, the Imperium of Man (or for another example the Judges of the Hall of Justice); then you know you have a crapsack world.
That's part of the central humour of the 40k setting. The humans are the goodguys, because even though they are intolerant, genocidal xenophobes; they are still heads and tails over almost every other faction.
This is part of why I hope they change the Tau up a little, because they kind of ruin the joke if they keep them as shining paragons of justice (or at least less tarnished than the IoM). But luckily the subtext of them being a depraved, Orwellian dystopia seems to be closer to the mark these days (now they just need to play down the naivete a tad more).
The setting is funnier when the Imperium are the good guys. If that ever ceases to be true then the setting will have drifted to far from proper GrimDark. Never play GrimDark straight, never.
In a lot of ways it is a fairly British thing and I enjoy 40k's overblown GrimDark for the same reason I love Judge Dredd. In any other setting the progtagonists of these properties would be the villains, they would be the evil empire that everyone boos. But in the settings they exist in we cheer for them only because the alternatives are worse. They would both loose something if the jack-boot pressed against the throat of the downtrodden were also the shining hero everyone roots for. Because it is all played for humour it just ends up making it even darker when you think about it.
Ronin nailed this topic so hard. When in doubt...
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true.
You'll see it's all a show,
Keep 'em laughing as you go.
Just remember that the last laugh is on you!
sierra 1247 wrote: This all comes down to the basic human instincts: Survival at ANY cost
Exactly! We didn't get to the top of the food chain by pussying out and being tree huggers or animal lovers; No, we burnt down those trees, and massacred any moving peice of flesh that got in out way, and it's worked out quite well so far.
Imperium - religious cult who sees them selves as the only salvation for mankind
Chaos Space Marines - Humans Rebelling against a Cult using the powers of the cults evil gods
Orks - Living out natural programing
Nids - Living out natural programing
Eldar - Trying to survive but split on how to do it
Tau - Trying to forge a empire of social purity
Necros - Trying to reconquer a lost empire
Daemons - Carrying out the will of evil gods
Another way to look at this is the conflict between Order and Chaos (or Disorder, if you prefer). Neither make any claims over the Good/Evil morality axis (rather, both sides will fall along both of these), being more interested in the dominance of either Order or Chaos (one cannot be both).
The brilliant thing about a universe where everyone are rotten is that it depends on the perspective of the viewer what faction is most rotten. The Tau, however, were specifically created not to be rotten, so I'll award them the shiniest turd award (although I've seen it voiced that the story about the castrations was written from the perspective of a single rather insane commissar).
Also, to whoever said that the Eldar view humans as animals; not true. Eldar viewed them as animals (past tense) then returned to find that they suddenly had grown a brain capable of tool making. Also, the most closed and narrow minded of all Eldar, the Alaitoc, do not view humans as truly must-kills, and some are even of the opinion that humans in general can be pretty good neighbours on a galactic scale - even though they have to be watched closely since they are so easily corrupted.
Grey Templar wrote: You seem to be equating the differences of Humans and Aliens to the purely cosmetic differences between different human individuals.
Redhead, Blonde, Black, White, etc...
All are Humans. Eldar are not Humans. Orks are not Humans. Tau are not Humans. etc...
Saying they have the same rights as humans is just as absurd as saying a dog or a cow has the same rights as a human. They cannot have the same rights, they arn't Human.
No. This is not true for a multitude of reasons, for one your analogy is absurd. Compare the dog to the cow instead of a human since a human is significantly higher order sentience. Also the human is like the dog if the Tau are the cow in that analogy when compared to an Eldar.
You see, you have no "human rights". Yes, you as a human being. It's not a natural law. If you believe in god, then I'm sad to say he didn't quite impose that law, either. You rights as a human being exists because there is a large enough number of influential enough people who recognise you as a human being and that you as such should have certain basic rights which goes beyond local law. Go far enough away from the influence of this group of people and you'll soon find human trafficking, unfree labour, unfree bordellos, etc. You'll find areas where human rights are flexible. The "rights" part of "human rights" can change depending on the influence of those around you as could the "human" part if a sufficiently powerful group of people (for any definition of people) agree that it is so. Humanity on earth in 2013 has still to meet a race which sufficiently qualifies in the minds of people, though I should note that basic rights for higher-order organic life is being formed in quite a few democracies (i.e. just because you own an animal does not give you the right to torture it to death).
Given how thoroughly the concept of "human" is imprinted in our various languages with different attributes such as "worth" and "sentience" and similar concepts, I'd not at all be surprised if once we do meet a species sufficiently compatible with human society that they will eventually be deemed "human" while the definition of our race will become more scientific. Ideally, that is. I also see it as likely it'll all go Apartheid until one species is extinct.
P.s. this is also why it's important to keep democracy alive by voting and exercising your freedom of speech. Fear the tyrant, abhor the populist and all that.
I'm genuinely surprised how serious people are taking the "its our species" line as if 40k is the real world. Its a fictional game, in which players take on the role of various aliens, which being created by humans for human consumption have plenty of identifiable traits. Really, when the Orks are effectively Cockney football hooligans wielding bazookas, I think you should only take philosophising so far.
Trying to look at it from the outside, Humanity has certainly created the most misery in the 40k Galaxy. Ignoring 10,000 years of byzantine, theocratic stagnation and repression for its own citizens, the Imperium has cleansed huge swathes of an entire galaxy on a scale larger than any other race and for far longer period of time (that we are aware of to any degree). When you take in the Great Crusade and pre-Imperial human conquest of the galaxy, Emperor's knows how many trillions and trillions of beings have died by human hands.
Its rarely brought up in fluff due to the focus of 40k but whenever minor xeno races are mentioned, they're usually the remnants of civilizations genocided by the Imperium who loathe humanity and will happily side with anyone fighting the Imperium. This is not surprising as Humanity's long held dominance of the galaxy combined with its... "specieist" views can only lead to one thing. Now I'm not sure on human to "minor" xeno population ratios are but its safe to say Humanity is the threat to most forms of sentient life, if in not pure numbers though I certainly wouldn't surprised.
This actually feeds into the debates about "who would join the Tau". Now debate long and hard about humans but for minor xenos? Not sure about you but if I was a Gunarian land squid about to see its home world hit by an Imperial Crusade, or even in relative proximity to Imperial borders, I'd sign up to the Greater Good in a heart beat. For becoming a subject of the Tau I get 1) Military Protection 2) Advanced Technology and 3) Not have my race annihilated.
The Orks are certainly up there but simply don't have the organisation or reach, sure they bulldoze through entire sectors but the Imperium has the bureaucracy, inclination and staying power. Human colonisation of an alien world is greater certainty of eventual extinction than a Waaagh, which might move on. Also you could debate Orks are naturally inclined to violence on a level alien to humans, whereas the Imperium is driven by an extremist ideology.
Tyranids are more efficient but have been in the galaxy for far less time and again don't have the reach, of course given time they might dwarf human atrocities by a fair stretch.
Chaos has certainly caused plenty of woe but given it is a reflection of living creature's emotions I'd say its difficult to judge it - after all it is Humans and Eldar etc. who cause the overwhelming amount of Chaos related carnage, as opposed to Daemons. It can at least say it has no intention of wiping out the whole galaxy unlike the Necrons and Tyranids.
Of course this is all based on how you define bad, I'm deciding to measure it by pain inflicted on the Milky Way as in the grimdark far future there's not a lot of good, so results over intentions. The Imperium is however the only force with enough clout to take on the Hive Fleets etc. so its certainly doing the galaxy a favour in that respect.
After waffling, I'd say no humans/the Imperium aren't the bad guys as that implies there is some white knight ready to defeat them. The closest thing is the Tau and that is why I like them as a concept if nothing else, they're the only hope for many species to live without being squashed by one of the other big races but in return they provide a somewhat creepy paternalistic utopian society who might, depending on your reading of fluff, simply be going about their specieist agenda in a subtler way.
Mahtamori wrote: The brilliant thing about a universe where everyone are rotten is that it depends on the perspective of the viewer what faction is most rotten. The Tau, however, were specifically created not to be rotten, so I'll award them the shiniest turd award (although I've seen it voiced that the story about the castrations was written from the perspective of a single rather insane commissar).
Also, to whoever said that the Eldar view humans as animals; not true. Eldar viewed them as animals (past tense) then returned to find that they suddenly had grown a brain capable of tool making. Also, the most closed and narrow minded of all Eldar, the Alaitoc, do not view humans as truly must-kills, and some are even of the opinion that humans in general can be pretty good neighbours on a galactic scale - even though they have to be watched closely since they are so easily corrupted.
Grey Templar wrote: You seem to be equating the differences of Humans and Aliens to the purely cosmetic differences between different human individuals.
Redhead, Blonde, Black, White, etc...
All are Humans. Eldar are not Humans. Orks are not Humans. Tau are not Humans. etc...
Saying they have the same rights as humans is just as absurd as saying a dog or a cow has the same rights as a human. They cannot have the same rights, they arn't Human.
No. This is not true for a multitude of reasons, for one your analogy is absurd. Compare the dog to the cow instead of a human since a human is significantly higher order sentience. Also the human is like the dog if the Tau are the cow in that analogy when compared to an Eldar.
You see, you have no "human rights". Yes, you as a human being. It's not a natural law. If you believe in god, then I'm sad to say he didn't quite impose that law, either. You rights as a human being exists because there is a large enough number of influential enough people who recognise you as a human being and that you as such should have certain basic rights which goes beyond local law. Go far enough away from the influence of this group of people and you'll soon find human trafficking, unfree labour, unfree bordellos, etc. You'll find areas where human rights are flexible. The "rights" part of "human rights" can change depending on the influence of those around you as could the "human" part if a sufficiently powerful group of people (for any definition of people) agree that it is so. Humanity on earth in 2013 has still to meet a race which sufficiently qualifies in the minds of people, though I should note that basic rights for higher-order organic life is being formed in quite a few democracies (i.e. just because you own an animal does not give you the right to torture it to death).
Given how thoroughly the concept of "human" is imprinted in our various languages with different attributes such as "worth" and "sentience" and similar concepts, I'd not at all be surprised if once we do meet a species sufficiently compatible with human society that they will eventually be deemed "human" while the definition of our race will become more scientific. Ideally, that is. I also see it as likely it'll all go Apartheid until one species is extinct.
P.s. this is also why it's important to keep democracy alive by voting and exercising your freedom of speech. Fear the tyrant, abhor the populist and all that.
I think you are taking my post slightly out of context. See the post I was replying to.
Anyway, I think it would be wrong to apply our(by your definition) artificial "human" rights automatically to aliens for several reasons.
First, I see no immediate reason to. I also see no reason not to do either. But I feel it should not be the default state. Which is no more valid than your view that it should be. Its an odd discussion point.
Take a few examples.
What if we encountered a race that is similar to Orks. Extremely violent, and in fact a species that was purposely engineered for war. They are obviously sentient, but still complete monsters. There is no reason they should have any rights in a human society. Or are you of the belief that simply being sentient makes you deserving of rights?
Having mutual sentient rights is an affair for humans and aliens living together in a mutual society. Something I view as unlikely. Any alien life that does exist is far more likely to not be intelligent, and in the event there is intelligent life they are just as likely to be unfriendly as friendly. The chance of them having a mindset even remotely similar to humans is far less likely than the alternative.
I am not saying that peaceful coexistance with aliens would not be possable(and would necessitate equal societal standing) but I think its a mistake to automatically assume that should be the default stance and desire.
Jape wrote: When you take in the Great Crusade and pre-Imperial human conquest of the galaxy, Emperor's knows how many trillions and trillions of beings have died by human hands.
Don't be so quick to judge: the War in Heaven between the Old Ones, their pawns, and the Necrons almost wiped out all life. And its not like the Imperium isn't unjustified in its actions. Most Humans suffered under aliens during the Old Night, and I'd certainly bet the pre-Fall Eldar enslaved and abused more Humans than the post-Fall Dark Eldar. Even after the rise of the Imperium, the elder races still consider Humans as either pawns or animals. Not much incentive for the Imperium to be tolerant, is it?
Jape wrote: When you take in the Great Crusade and pre-Imperial human conquest of the galaxy, Emperor's knows how many trillions and trillions of beings have died by human hands.
Don't be so quick to judge: the War in Heaven between the Old Ones, their pawns, and the Necrons almost wiped out all life. And its not like the Imperium isn't unjustified in its actions. Most Humans suffered under aliens during the Old Night, and I'd certainly bet the pre-Fall Eldar enslaved and abused more Humans than the post-Fall Dark Eldar. Even after the rise of the Imperium, the elder races still consider Humans as either pawns or animals. Not much incentive for the Imperium to be tolerant, is it?
Judge? I was pointing out that people on this thread are painting the Imperium in an overly sympathetic light for what is dystopian clerical fascist state by design. Nothing more. On the Old Night, point taken but 'the aliens' aren't a group, I'm sure plenty of human worlds were conquered, wiped out, conquered alien worlds and allied with aliens to defeat a greater foe. It is in Imperial interests to show the pre-Imperial period as one of unremitting crapness. On the War in Heaven, I'm referring to the current period that was less than 60 million years ago but I see your point.
The humans in 40k are simply a product of their environment. They need to be ruthless religious fascists or die.
The Imperium is the bastion of humanity in the year 40,000 (huge threats like the Tyranids need such a large opponent). However ignoring the Imperium is a big part of the reason the galaxy is like it is would be ridiculous. Human is probably a curse word in countless xeno tongues. They conquered the galaxy, destroying who knows how many civilisations and now are stuck with the job of defending it while their flawed system of government stagnates and crumbles. The situation 'now' is not what it was during the Imperial Golden Age when the key aspects of the Imperial state were formed. They took an extremist path in terms of technological conservatism, total xenophobia and religious intolerance that now dooms them. They didn't choose the path in response to the huge threats they now face, they chose it thousands of years ago when human domination was at its height.
Anyway I'll stop there, I'm simply trying to show how the Imperium from an outsider perspective definitely are bad guys but such a term has little value in 40k, not insult one of the 40k 'teams'.
Though thinking about it, if we take a villain to be someone who enters a story in order to become dominant and upset the status quo, the Tyranids and Necrons are your best bet for intentions. They are willing and capable to destroy the galaxy plus their non-existent warp presence means even Chaos is threatened by their victory.
Anyway, I think it would be wrong to apply our(by your definition) artificial "human" rights automatically to aliens for several reasons.
First, I see no immediate reason to. I also see no reason not to do either. But I feel it should not be the default state. Which is no more valid than your view that it should be. Its an odd discussion point.
Take a few examples.
What if we encountered a race that is similar to Orks. Extremely violent, and in fact a species that was purposely engineered for war. They are obviously sentient, but still complete monsters. There is no reason they should have any rights in a human society. Or are you of the belief that simply being sentient makes you deserving of rights?
...
I am not saying that peaceful coexistance with aliens would not be possable(and would necessitate equal societal standing) but I think its a mistake to automatically assume that should be the default stance and desire.
Are we really talking about rights at this point? You are making a judgement about how to treat another race based on their behavior, not rights or lack of them.
I mean turn it around : you meet a culture of humans who are extremely violent, warlike, and whom it is impossible to live in peace with. They will kill you, or vice versa. How do rights apply to them? Does it matter that they are human?
Most people throughout history have tossed out human rights when faced with a bloodthirsty human opponent - certainly few people in war spend a great deal of time weighing whether the people they kill are sentient and deserve to be treated as such. That is a given - it is their actions above and beyond their status as sentient beings that makes them killable.
I would treat any advanced sentient* being the same way. As far as I am concerned, Orks and Humans have every right to be treated with dignity and fairness, and I have every right to shoot either one in the face if it is trying to kill me or mine. We might well be at *war* with Orks, but that doesn't mean we should raise them like cattle for food either - even if they happen to be delicious. One is a matter of noting they are dangerous, the other is depriving them of "rights" as we use the term.
*The "advanced" is important here, since plenty of animals we know of are sentient in the only way we know of to define it... aware of themselves as individuals and able to ascribe traits and individual desires to others.
The Imperium is the bastion of humanity in the year 40,000 (huge threats like the Tyranids need such a large opponent). However ignoring the Imperium is a big part of the reason the galaxy is like it is would be ridiculous. Human is probably a curse word in countless xeno tongues. They conquered the galaxy, destroying who knows how many civilisations and now are stuck with the job of defending it while their flawed system of government stagnates and crumbles. The situation 'now' is not what it was during the Imperial Golden Age when the key aspects of the Imperial state were formed. They took an extremist path in terms of technological conservatism, total xenophobia and religious intolerance that now dooms them. They didn't choose the path in response to the huge threats they now face, they chose it thousands of years ago when human domination was at its height.
The Imperium also committed xenocide back during the Great Crusade. True, they weren't such conservatives back then when it came to technology, but the Emperor did forbid all and any forms of AI research, and the Mechanicus still wrapped all their knowledge with ritual and dogma. The primary difference then and now being the Great Crusade-era Mechanicus focusing on reclamation as opposed to simply preservation for the post-Heresy Mechanicus. And the Imperium was ironically enough, religiously intolerant at the time. Of any form of organized religion that is. The Great Crusade-era Imperium steadfastly set sat aside faith, superstition, and organized religion for reason and technological certainty. As I recall, an entire city was even burned down to the ground to enforce this, and even before that, the Emperor made it a personal point to personally oversee the destruction of the last church on Terra. So, the Imperium isn't really that different then and now.
On a side note to this discussion, though still relevant, thinking through this has pointed out to me the incredible interplay the different races have on the setting of the 40k universe.
For example, most people like to side with either a good guy, or a bad guy, because they can identify with them. This idea of "good and evil" is severely tested in this universe, it's always asking "what is good?" or "what is evil?" and "How far can you take this without corrupting your soul and going to hell?".
Basic definitions for "the forces of good" bring us:
1) Righteous
2) Order
3) Fighting in defence
4) Fighting for peace
5) Helping each other and outsiders (charity)
6) Fighting for survival
7) Directly opposing what you perceive to be evil
And definitions of evil can get us:
1) Mass-murder (or any murder')
2) Wanton death and destruction
3) Disorder (or chaos)
4) Directly opposing what you perceive to be good
But here's where morality gets confusing...
Factions that can be defined as good under the above definitions:
1) IOM, Chaos [from some perspectives], Orks [Theirs is a holy war crossed with a pub crawl]
2) IOM [Highly debatable], Necrons [Closing off the warp], Tyranids [Exterminating the warp's fuel (read: all creatures with souls)], Tau, Eldar [ish?]
3) All of them, except Tyranids
4) Tau [probably], Eldar [possibly], IOM [again, highly debatable]
5) Tau. [correct me if i'm wrong]
6) All of them.
7) Again, all of them.
Factions that can be defined as evil under the above definitions:
1) All of them. [Yes, even Tau]
2) Chaos, Orks, IOM [sometimes], Dark Eldar
3) Chaos, Orks, IOM [partially/sometimes]
4) All of them.
They all fit into both categories quite happily, and I for one am impressed at the level of morality confusion GW has created here.
Varguard Erekh wrote: So, you do not question my opinion of the Tyranids? Or even ask why that opinion even exists? very well.
Is it because there is no emotion? They just hunt, eat, evolve, rinse and repeat at every obstacle
You understand a part of it. it is also because since they do not have emotions, they do not understand concepts such as corruption, stealing, selfishness, lying... the list goes on. they just live for one purpose, nothing else. if this is not the definition of the very word "pure", i do not know what is.
Anyway, I think it would be wrong to apply our(by your definition) artificial "human" rights automatically to aliens for several reasons.
First, I see no immediate reason to. I also see no reason not to do either. But I feel it should not be the default state. Which is no more valid than your view that it should be. Its an odd discussion point.
Take a few examples.
What if we encountered a race that is similar to Orks. Extremely violent, and in fact a species that was purposely engineered for war. They are obviously sentient, but still complete monsters. There is no reason they should have any rights in a human society. Or are you of the belief that simply being sentient makes you deserving of rights?
...
I am not saying that peaceful coexistance with aliens would not be possable(and would necessitate equal societal standing) but I think its a mistake to automatically assume that should be the default stance and desire.
Are we really talking about rights at this point? You are making a judgement about how to treat another race based on their behavior, not rights or lack of them.
I mean turn it around : you meet a culture of humans who are extremely violent, warlike, and whom it is impossible to live in peace with. They will kill you, or vice versa. How do rights apply to them? Does it matter that they are human?
Yes, it would matter that they are human. Because they are the same species as we are they would automatically be on equal standing.
I also know that, while these humans are warlike and violent, they are still human and it is possable to achieve an understanding with them. It may not be worth doing because of the extreme difficulty, but it is possable.
Aliens on the other hand are completely different. We cannot assume anything about them or ascribe any traits we see in humans, or even animals. How can we give them rights?
I was originally responding to the poster who was saying the slaughter of Aliens is genocide, when really such a thing is a matter of perspective. Thousands of dogs and cats are put down every year because there are too many of them. Is that genocide?
The Holocaust was, from our point of view, genocide. From Hitler and the Nazi's point of view it was culling the undesirables. Little different from putting down stray dogs and cats. If they had won WW2 and conquered the world we would have the same view.
So ultimately, right or wrong in 40k is blurred and entirely depends on your point of view. And its rather silly to take one stance over another. My silly stance is that the Imperium is the good guys by reason of species. You can have whatever silly stance you want, just realize its silly.
The Imperium is probably just as evil as the forces of Chaos. They commit mass genocide on a daily basis, and have an ideology based around xenophobia, racial purity and the destruction of all other races in the galaxy. People are burned at the stake, while even slight mutations can led to executions in some worlds in the Imperium. In no way are they the good guys.
As for the Tau, I'd say this sums it up nicely;
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." -C.S. Lewis.
Yes, it would matter that they are human. Because they are the same species as we are they would automatically be on equal standing.
I also know that, while these humans are warlike and violent, they are still human and it is possable to achieve an understanding with them. It may not be worth doing because of the extreme difficulty, but it is possable.
Aliens on the other hand are completely different. We cannot assume anything about them or ascribe any traits we see in humans, or even animals. How can we give them rights?
I was originally responding to the poster who was saying the slaughter of Aliens is genocide, when really such a thing is a matter of perspective. Thousands of dogs and cats are put down every year because there are too many of them. Is that genocide?
The Holocaust was, from our point of view, genocide. From Hitler and the Nazi's point of view it was culling the undesirables. Little different from putting down stray dogs and cats. If they had won WW2 and conquered the world we would have the same view.
So ultimately, right or wrong in 40k is blurred and entirely depends on your point of view. And its rather silly to take one stance over another. My silly stance is that the Imperium is the good guys by reason of species. You can have whatever silly stance you want, just realize its silly.
We are not taking a stance on right or wrong, we are trying to determine a rational method for determining what traits ascribe rights. Ascribing rights based on species seems unjustifiably random - if category defines rights, then why not narrow it down and say other races cannot have rights as you noted Hitler did? Since we are not basing it on attributes (sentience, intelligence, consciousness, etc.) but on simple similarity, we completely lose the ability to justify a broader category as opposed to a narrower one. Ultimately, I might as well just say that I am the only thing I can truly know feels and thinks somewhat like me, and thus nothing else should have rights.
You can try to get around this by saying we can know humans in ways we can't know aliens, but how can we prove that? If Hitler comes down and says "these people here have alien minds, and do not think or feel the way we do" how would you argue otherwise, and how is that any different from arguing that Eldar have emotional states and have minds much the same as we do? All we have is observation and the qualities we have observed to go off of. If you remove those from consideration when looking at Tau, why would you consider them when looking at Swedes?
This is all getting a little down the rabbit hole, but my issue with what you are saying isn't a moral one, but a logical one - I don't see your position as defensible. If you want to give things rights at all (we certainly are not born with them), then you need a way to do so that gives rights to things other than you. Things you can only know through observation, as opposed to melding minds and seeing that they think as you do.
They were Xenos. They had it coming. The Emperor declared it Humanity's manifest destiny to rule the stars. The Imperium is just carrying the will of the God-Emperor.
@Admiral Valerian - Or a battle of Chaos... vs. Chaos. I've always defended that the Imperium is tainted by design. The Emperor found a way around this, by uniting all mankind then cutting it off from the war, but his plans were violently put to a halt. By the 41st millenium, the Emperor's project is all but forgotten, replaced in turn by a convoluted, decadent mess.
Constant war, civilizations razed, worlds scorched... Khorne should be pleased by the rampant destruction the Imperium leaves in its wake. So should be Nurgle, watching the Imperium succumb to inertia, sloth and forgetfulness, its population indoctrinated to endure whatever pains and ailments inflicted upon them. As for Tzeentch, it has more than enough to feed upon: The Imperium itself is rooted in a massive lie, a denial of factual reality of cosmic proportions, that has evolved to become an ochlocracy supported by a labyrinthine bureaucratic system overlapping with a shadowy religious organization.
Poor Slaanesh is left out of the feast, though, as the Imperium seems willing to go great lenghts to deprive its citizens of all sorts of sensory pleasures. But hey, he/she/it just devoured an entire civilization all by him/her/itself, so it's ok if he/she/it just gets the scraps - Let's assume for a moment that someone amongst the untold billions of Imperial citizens is not intimidated or horrified by the pervasive, state-endorsed Baroque/Gothic-nouveau art style, but actually enjoys it. All yours to take, Slaanesh
@Guardslayer - I don't think there's anything sensual in the Tyranids' apparent gluttony. They just crave for biomass like our society craves for petroleum...
Nivek5150 wrote:40k is not a battle of good vs evil. It's a battle of Order vs Chaos.
The line of which is blurry for the IOM...
Selym wrote:On a side note to this discussion, though still relevant, thinking through this has pointed out to me the incredible interplay the different races have on the setting of the 40k universe.
For example, most people like to side with either a good guy, or a bad guy, because they can identify with them. This idea of "good and evil" is severely tested in this universe, it's always asking "what is good?" or "what is evil?" and "How far can you take this without corrupting your soul and going to hell?".
Basic definitions for "the forces of good" bring us:
1) Righteous
2) Order
3) Fighting in defence
4) Fighting for peace
5) Helping each other and outsiders (charity)
6) Fighting for survival
7) Directly opposing what you perceive to be evil
And definitions of evil can get us:
1) Mass-murder (or any murder')
2) Wanton death and destruction
3) Disorder (or chaos)
4) Directly opposing what you perceive to be good
But here's where morality gets confusing...
Factions that can be defined as good under the above definitions:
1) IOM, Chaos [from some perspectives], Orks [Theirs is a holy war crossed with a pub crawl]
2) IOM [Highly debatable], Necrons [Closing off the warp], Tyranids [Exterminating the warp's fuel (read: all creatures with souls)], Tau, Eldar [ish?]
3) All of them, except Tyranids
4) Tau [probably], Eldar [possibly], IOM [again, highly debatable]
5) Tau. [correct me if i'm wrong]
6) All of them.
7) Again, all of them.
Factions that can be defined as evil under the above definitions:
1) All of them. [Yes, even Tau]
2) Chaos, Orks, IOM [sometimes], Dark Eldar
3) Chaos, Orks, IOM [partially/sometimes]
4) All of them.
They all fit into both categories quite happily, and I for one am impressed at the level of morality confusion GW has created here.
There are no morals when it comes to ensuring the survival of your species, mercy is a sign of weakness that can and will be exploited. 40k is basically nature with a gakload of archaic tech, ignorance and daemonic powers
sierra 1247 wrote: There are no morals when it comes to ensuring the survival of your species, mercy is a sign of weakness that can and will be exploited. 40k is basically nature with a gakload of archaic tech, ignorance and daemonic powers
If nature were half as dysfunctional as the 40k universe, nature would have died out on this planet eons ago!
After all, if morals did not help ensure the survival of the species, we never would have evolved them.
I see we're talking about very different things. As neither philosophy, nor evolutionary biology are my specialist areas, I'll leave it there.
Edit: When morality was referred to, this is more along the lines of what I was thinking of: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-biology/#EmpNorSenMor Not a whimsy "people can do bad things in certain times" but more of a empirical definition of morality in an evolutionary context.
I see we're talking about very different things. As neither philosophy, nor evolutionary biology are my specialist areas, I'll leave it there.
Edit: When morality was referred to, this is more along the lines of what I was thinking of: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-biology/#EmpNorSenMor Not a whimsy "people can do bad things in certain times" but more of a empirical definition of morality in an evolutionary context.
A person's morality is based on his/her philosophy on how the world works. they are the same thing. British and US laws are based primarily on christian philosophy and ideals. Things such as human rights exist there, because these countries overall agree that people have an inherent value, if not to the country, then to some other higher purpose, usually "God".
In Britain and the US, it is law that if someone has to die it must be done as humanely as possible (quick and painless), but in Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq and Iran, executions are carried out by throwing stones at the person. Britain and the US would not consider this to be morally right, but in those countires their morals are based on different philosophies, different religions.
Morality is just about as set as GW's fluff.
Linking this to 40k, whatever the Imperial Creed says is right becomes right. By that definition, humans are always the good guys, regardless of what they do.
Most of those concepts and ideals predate Christianity, Selym. Go back to the ancient Greeks (who invented the Golden Rule, for example), or various other pre-Christian socieities, and you'll see many similar concepts. British and US laws are based primarily on British Common Law, which is a body of laws and customs which have developed over many centuries and are quite clearly distinct from church doctrine and law.
Morality is judged by the observer. From the perspective of a modern, 21st century human, no one in 40k is a good guy, really.
Folks should also bear in mind that "human rights" are logically and appropriately applied to any sentient creature with which we can communicate and which demonstrates the capability to respect ours in turn. The idea of "sentient rights" or alien "humans" for the purpose of rights is a very old concept, and has been handled in science fiction for decades. Acting like human rights can only apply to biological humans is silly and ignores a massive body of science fiction and of moral philosophy.
Or easier still, survive at all costs, our main goal in life is to ensure the survival of our species. No matter the cost humanity must survive, if some diddy xenos civilisations happen to get in the way of us surviving then good luck to them....
Survival at all costs is definitely a central theme of GrimDarkness, but also clearly antithetical to most folks' ideas of heroism and morality. Part of the point of having ethics and morals is being willing to suffer negative consequences if that's the cost of doing the right thing.
Mannahnin wrote: Survival at all costs is definitely a central theme of GrimDarkness, but also clearly antithetical to most folks' ideas of heroism and morality. Part of the point of having ethics and morals is being willing to suffer negative consequences if that's the cost of doing the right thing.
Admiral Valerian wrote: Incorrect, we didn't evolve morals. We made/defined them. Therefore, we can also re-make/re-define them however we see fit.
Incorrect - more on the latter part than the former. Obviously some morals are made and defined, changing over time - however, all human moral behavior is contained within a very constrained set of parameters, and are based on evolved traits. There is nothing learned or made up about the social instincts and emotional responses that shape human behavior. Across all cultures and groups people have the same root moral code, and no society has ever deviated from them. Indeed, chimps, wolves, hyena and other social animals replicate much of our morality as well.
While "don't eat ham" is nothing but a social construct, "do not kill within your in group" is an instinct that long predates any human version of the rule, and the only humans who violate it without being under extreme duress are sociopaths... a group of people noteworthy mostly for lacking the instinctive reactions (chiefly emotions) that shape normal human behavior.
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Selym wrote: A person's morality is based on his/her philosophy on how the world works. they are the same thing. British and US laws are based primarily on christian philosophy and ideals. Things such as human rights exist there, because these countries overall agree that people have an inherent value, if not to the country, then to some other higher purpose, usually "God".
In Britain and the US, it is law that if someone has to die it must be done as humanely as possible (quick and painless), but in Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq and Iran, executions are carried out by throwing stones at the person. Britain and the US would not consider this to be morally right, but in those countires their morals are based on different philosophies, different religions.
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.
-Leviticus 24:16
Christians have no problem killing people with stones - nor is the christian nation of Rwanda any safer than Somalia. Humanity is a whole is entirely capable of torture, brutal killing and terrible violence to anyone who is part of another tribe/nation/religion/race/whatever. Always have been, always will be - that is as innate as treating our family well. The entire act of warfare depends on our ability to set aside other humans as "not us" and then treat them in ways we would never treat "us". That is as true of tribal warfare in Africa as it is among the US military. It's true of chimps too, for that matter.
What makes western nations as a whole less dangerous to their neighbors is not a religious edict (see how well those held up during the crusades) but a distinctly philosophical notion... the idea that all men, even those who follow other gods or ways of living, are brothers. Insofar as we can believe it, we are quite peaceful; as it has never been an evolutionary advantage to cause violent discord among one's own pack. When we don't believe it, we treat people as chimps treat members of rival groups - we harass, beat, mistreat, steal from, drive away and occasionally kill them.
Selym wrote: A person's morality is based on his/her philosophy on how the world works. they are the same thing. British and US laws are based primarily on christian philosophy and ideals. Things such as human rights exist there, because these countries overall agree that people have an inherent value, if not to the country, then to some other higher purpose, usually "God".
In Britain and the US, it is law that if someone has to die it must be done as humanely as possible (quick and painless), but in Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq and Iran, executions are carried out by throwing stones at the person. Britain and the US would not consider this to be morally right, but in those countires their morals are based on different philosophies, different religions.
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.
-Leviticus 24:16
Christians have no problem killing people with stones - nor is the christian nation of Rwanda any safer than Somalia. Humanity is a whole is entirely capable of torture, brutal killing and terrible violence to anyone who is part of another tribe/nation/religion/race/whatever. Always have been, always will be - that is as innate as treating our family well. The entire act of warfare depends on our ability to set aside other humans as "not us" and then treat them in ways we would never treat "us". That is as true of tribal warfare in Africa as it is among the US military. It's true of chimps too, for that matter.
The song rule Britannia describes Imperium and Humanity beautifully, just swap few words and you get:
"Rule Imperium, Imperium rule the stars.
Humans never, never, never shall be slaves."
In the grim darkness of the far future forget 21'st century morals, rights, etnics and everything. You cannot reason with the Ork not to chop you, you cannot reason with the Tyranid not to eat you, you cannot reason with the Necro nnot to flay you alive, you cannot reason with the Eldar to respect you, you cannot reason with the Dark Eldar to not torture you, you cannot reason with the Tau to share power together, you Cannot reason with Chaos god not to turn you into something nasty... So before people turjning and blaming everything on Humanity and calling Emperor and his Imeprium evil people should look at aliens instead. Their actions are waht made Mankind in what is today - totalitarian, xenophobic and concentric society. And I do not blame them, after so many millennial of being under constant attack from literally everything the galaxy has to throw on them can you really blame them for shooting first then asking question later every time a new alien race emerge on the galactic map?
Imperium, as it is, is not at all perfect empire. It is filled with corrupted officials and slowed Governors while noble warriors of Guard, Sisterhood and Astartes are giving their lives to protect Mankind who then must live under those retards. But Imperium as it is represents the best hope Mankind has in surviving at all. Like it was stated million times in the fluff: "Without the protection of the Imperium, Mankind would fall prey to the countless perils that threaten it."
Tau might be the only "good" in the universe, not because of being inherently good, but because they are not considered inherently evil in the eyes of our moral system. Alot of the bad stuff said about them are from the point of view of imperialists.
Imperium purge everyone that might threaten our survival in 2000 years
Eldar(grey area) same as imperium but they can actually predict the real threats
Dark Eldar KILL TORTURE
Orks WAAAAGGHHHH
Tyranids MUNCHIES
Chaos distort, destroy
Necrons- fueled by hate
The tau think" all other systems are evil, liberation is the only way"
While this seems very close minded, remember, all other systems in the galaxy ARE inherently evil, to some degree.
FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote: Tau might be the only "good" in the universe, not because of being inherently good, but because they are not considered inherently evil in the eyes of our moral system.
No. I equate the Imperium to the Protheans, with a strong belief in unity, military might, fear and hate of AIs. The Reapers are equated with Necrons (with traits from both oldcrons and newcrons), Orks with Krogan (duh!), Craftworld Eldar with Quarians (though the Quarians are nicer), Dark Eldar with Terminus slavers/pirates (though Dark Eldar are worse), and Chaos...I got nothing.
Good, and bad, are merely perspectives. To the marines, the marines are the most goodly and honerable warriors in the universe.
But heck, I play chaos Daemons, and the chaos god Nurgle, beleives himself to be a benevolent and loving god, and most of his followers agree. He gives people eternal life, and takes away all pain and suffering. All he asks in return, is that you help spread his "gifts", so that more people can be welcomed into his fatherly embrace.
And in honesty, compared to a lot of other things in the 40k universe, I would have to say nurgle -is- the closest thing to a benevolent god xD
Nurgle doesn't ask for 1000 innocent human sacrifices a day just to sustain himself, like the false emperor -.-
And in honesty, compared to a lot of other things in the 40k universe, I would have to say nurgle -is- the closest thing to a benevolent god xD
Wrong. Isha is nicer and more benevolent. She doesn't ask for compensation or help to be freed from Nurgle, but willingly gives mortals insider knowledge about Nurgle's work.
And in honesty, compared to a lot of other things in the 40k universe, I would have to say nurgle -is- the closest thing to a benevolent god xD
Wrong. Isha is nicer and more benevolent. She doesn't ask for compensation or help to be freed from Nurgle, but willingly gives mortals insider knowledge about Nurgle's work.
Psh, Isha is the antichrist of nurgle. Trying to ruin his divine plan to save the universe with his glorious plagues.
Grey Templar wrote: Well, its more like the Imperium is the good guys because they're human. And we here on Earth are humans. So naturally we root for our species.
When extinction is on the line, you gotta go with your species. And its your duty to make sure your species continues
I challenge that!
I may be on the side of humans, but there are many human factions.
The IG represent the common man - these are the general good guys. And they get stomped. A lot. Even by their own kind. Because that's what happens to good guys.
Except that they tend to win, with relatively light casualties at that. Except of course for IA and its "have them do the absolute worst thing they possibly could in given situation, without regard to the resources at their disposal or established strategic doctrine, to make the Tau look better or the Tyranids scarier or just because".
The SM are the superheroes - but will happily wipe out the common man for very little reason, and when you get down to it, they're all very close to being the supervillans. This is because they have a very nazi ideal as to what a human is - if you're not the perfect man, they won't give two sh*ts about you.
Space Marines aren't superheroes, they are, specifically, Batman; individually powerful, but not magic, and equipped with impractically complicated and expensive themed weaponry, but ultimately far too few to meaningfully impact events.
The sisters of battle can only be seen as "good" if you subscribe to their religion, and if you don't, they're just as bad a[s the SM.
The SoB are ceremonial honour guards for holy sites. You might as well question the morality of the Swiss Guard.
Same goes for the Inquisition. And GK.
The Inquisition "persecutes": a) daemons, otherworldly atrocities who want to eat you because "lol", b) people who worship daemons and try to summon them (see point 'a'), c) people who are walking conduits for daemons and who are, if not insane or too weak to survive their own powers, trained to do useful things like not exploding into daemons, d) aliens that want to eat and or enslave you, usually because "lol", benign aliens are more generally ignored, if for no other reason than being less important than the ones who are actively trying to kill you. The Inquisition has far too large a task, and far too few resources, to attack anything but the largest problems.
Then we have the forces of chaos (traitor marines and humans, not the daemons). All they want iss to free you to be able to do whatever you want. You will only be punished if someone decides you are in their way of having fun. They promote freedom (sort of). These are the REAL good guys, and yet somehow with a dark undertone of depraved evil.
Except that Imperial citizens are free to act as they wish, so far as the Imperium as an entity is concerned, provided they don't endanger the Imperium or impede/subvert the warmachine it needs to fend off the myriad existential threats it routinely trounces. The local government might not always be so kind, but that's hardly the Imperium's fault, they just afford the planet as much freedom as they do any citizen: "do what you will, but pay your taxes and don't traffic with daemons or aliens".
The problem with comparing the Imperium to the Nazis boils down to correctness or the lack thereof: the Imperium brutally deals with existential threats that objectively exist, whereas the Nazis brutally dealt with imaginary threats/problems percieved by an ideology that can only be described as gibbering lunacy.
To draw another historical example to illustrate the distinction, let's look at witch hunts: in our world we can say that this is objectively wrong, becauses magic and daemons aren't actually real things, therefor trying to persecute people who deal with them is necessarily an exercise in lunacy. If, however, they were real, and in fact posed a grave existential threat to humanity, it would be absolutely inexcusable to leave them alone out of some misguided belief in tolerance.
At least the tau have the decency to let you live out the rest of your life in peace after they take over... They just quietly sterilize everyone 
What i was saying is that the races i stated above seemed more evil, hence "apart from...... humans seem to be..."
