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If war crimes, tyranny, and genocide are grayscale, sure.
I think when they say "grimdark" they don't mean "grayscale," I think they mean grimdark.
History is written by the victors. As there is no United Federation of Planets or any similar organization to pass judgement on the various factions, there are no war-crimes committed by the Imperium (or any other faction, for that matter). It is at war for its very survival, and thus there is no atrocity too great, no enemy kill-count too high, no weapon too terrible, that it cannot be used.
CrowSplat wrote:Wait what?? I guess you could say that if you AREN'T one of the countless civilizations that these chapters have exterminated over the centuries. Just because you wear bright colors like superman doesn't mean you aren't an evil bastard.
Those civilizations failed to worship the God-Emperor properly, or failed to stand by the Imperium (much the same thing, really). They had it coming.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
The world of 40K is pretty freaking grimdark. Looking at fluff of all the major factions/races, I'd have to say that Tau and Ork are the least "evil/badguyish."
Tau are generally considered the least grimdark of all the factions, and, though I don't know all that much about them, I'd say they're definitely not as bad as humanity in general.
Orks are not "bad guys," they are simply doing what their race was programmed to do, and they are no more bad guys than a predator is a bad guy for hunting its prey. They're only "bad" in that they don't take remorse in destruction, though that's mostly because they pretty much run purely on instinct in that regard.
In any case, humans are just as antagonistic as most factions in 40K. This doesn't make them the bad guys. Just remember, they are in fact sometimes considered "Catholic Space Nazis."
SixthRanger has entered the game
"Jon's here!" "Jon's dead!" "Jon became difficult terrain!"
Mankind does the horrible things it does because it has to in order to survive. If they don't work everyone 15 hours a day in war factories, Xenos exterminate Mankind. Psykers are executed because the risk of having a walking nuclear bomb around in a metropolitan area that is likely hearing voices in his head (that are not only real, but malevolent) is too great. The Commisar executes the Guardsman who tries to retreat not out of malice, but because the Commisar has decided that the number of lives that will be saved by holding the position just a little bit longer outweighs the life of that one Guardsman.
And the really horrifying thing? He's right.
Saint Celestine: I used to think that being an immortal warrior of the God Emperor made relationships impossible. But then Gamers For Marines Getting Laid introduced me to a man just like me!
xSPYXEx wrote: There is no "good" or "evil" in Warhammer. Everyone is equally guilty.
Well, that's not true at all.
The correct quote is that there is no innocence, only degrees of guilt. Chaos is definitely more evil than the Imperium. The Dark Eldar are significantly more evil than the Tau.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Grey Templar wrote: Well, its more like the Imperium is the good guys because they're human. And we here on Earth are humans. So naturally we root for our species.
When extinction is on the line, you gotta go with your species. And its your duty to make sure your species continues
I challenge that!
I may be on the side of humans, but there are many human factions.
The IG represent the common man - these are the general good guys. And they get stomped. A lot. Even by their own kind. Because that's what happens to good guys.
The SM are the superheroes - but will happily wipe out the common man for very little reason, and when you get down to it, they're all very close to being the supervillans. This is because they have a very nazi ideal as to what a human is - if you're not the perfect man, they won't give two sh*ts about you.
The sisters of battle can only be seen as "good" if you subscribe to their religion, and if you don't, they're just as bad as the SM.
Same goes for the Inquisition. And GK.
Then we have the forces of chaos (traitor marines and humans, not the daemons). All they want iss to free you to be able to do whatever you want. You will only be punished if someone decides you are in their way of having fun. They promote freedom (sort of). These are the REAL good guys, and yet somehow with a dark undertone of depraved evil.
The deeper you go, the more confusing the morality gets...
Because absolute, unrestricted freedom rather rapidly degenerates into anarchy, which quickly gives rise to either despotism or annihilation. There is no "middle ground" with Chaos, it's a study of extremes.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: Because absolute, unrestricted freedom rather rapidly degenerates into anarchy, which quickly gives rise to either despotism or annihilation. There is no "middle ground" with Chaos, it's a study of extremes.
Yep, and that's why they're my favourite - one day the noise marines are preaching the healing power of music, the next they're an*l-raping you in front of everybody, whilst being whipped to a bloody death by a worshiper of khorne.
Backspacehacker wrote: but if you want to know the true lawful good faction thats the tau
And how is sterilization of conquered population, mind control and conquest and aggression against anyone who doesn't want to join Grater Good Lawful Good exactly?
Tau are Lawful Evil at best, the best example of Lawful Good in 40k are Ultramarines, Sisters of Battle, Space Wolves and various other independent characters.
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
Still, they are the closes thing to good guys in 40k, especially the Ultramarines.
And who cares if the yare like that toward aliens? LIke Orks, Dark Eldar, Eldar adn other xenos should deserve compassion after all that have done to Mankind.
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: Still, they are the closes thing to good guys in 40k, especially the Ultramarines.
And who cares if the yare like that toward aliens? LIke Orks, Dark Eldar, Eldar adn other xenos should deserve compassion after all that have done to Mankind.
Actually, I was referring (partly) to what they do to humans. If you step out of line, even by accident, for a tiny fraction of a second, for even a very minor thing, they don't hesitate to kill you.
In instances where a human colony has been left alone long enough to start evolving, they get called mutants, and a Space Marines job description is "Kill all heretics, aliens and mutants".
Humans can even be called heretics simply for learning too much about technology etc.
Backspacehacker wrote: People are gonna hate me for this but, think of the IoM as the germans and hittler. In ww2 hitler wanted his people to live in peace and blamed the rest of the world. He thought the only way for peace was world domination. To the german people he was a hero his acts were noble and valorius, and in reality what he wanted would have worked. Now look a the iom same thing, the big E wants the human race to live in peace and in his eyes the only way is complete destruction of non humans, so it depends on how you look at it imo they are the good guys...in the eyes of humans, but if you want to know the true lawful good faction thats the tau
Actually, I was referring (partly) to what they do to humans.
What to say? It's big galaxy and bad things happen, many of them don't end with happy ending. But they don't attack the lost colonies immediately, they offered them to join the Imperium first. And most of the time the one who refuse are Hitler-liek dictators who won't let go their power. If the colony is infested with mutants who can harn Humans and forbidden technology ( liek certain AI's ) of course they will attack them because they know the alternative ( mutants brought down a LOT of Human worlds during the Age of Strife and Humans already and one was before because of high developed technology that have they barely won ). The Imperium today is a result of 30.000 years of Human history that consisted of many Human-alien wars, mutant attacks one one major AI uprising, can you really blaim them for being like that after surviving all that. We would be like them if the same happened to us.
To the OP, to sum it up - Humans are as much evil as other races are. Galaxy in 41'st millennium is one big arena and all races fight for their own survival. Mankind being pressed the most of all the others. To us they look evil, but if we were in their situation we would act exactly the same.
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
How can the Ultramarines be the Good Guys? That is like saying the SS were the good guys. UM fallow the Emperor who in my opinion is the worst person ever. He is Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Kahn and every other person who is considered evil all rolled into one.
He wanted to "reunify" the human empire or what ever it was called then (I forget) so after 1000s of years being away from the Imperium because of warp storms, and you have founded your own way of life, and low and behold the Emperor comes and says to join him or die, (just like the Tau) if you refuse, he destroys yous until you submit or perish.
So no, the UM are not the good guys at all. The Imperium is not the good guys,
Chaos is not the Good guys.
Tau are not the Good guys. It's either Join the Greater Good or perish.
SoB are not the good girls because they fallow the Emperor.
IG are not the good guys because they fallow the Emperor.
Orks are not the Good guys because they love War just to fight.
Necrons are not the Good guys.
Don't know much about Eldar, so not sure if they would live in peace with Humans or Tau or anyone else. From what people said in this thread, I guess they are not good either.
Dark Eldar, are not good guys either.
If anything, Tyranids are just Neutral. They are not evil or Good, They just want to survive. Just like how the Lion or any wild animals kills to eat and survive.
(Did I forget anyone else?)
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
In this universe, there are no good/bad guys. Just those who are able to survive and dominate They all have their own way of going about it. Wether to enslave the galaxy, purge it, or devour it. Some may seem better then the other, but when you look at the reason, and the side effect they all end up at least in the grey zone. One man's victory is another man (xeno/daemon/ideology's) defeat.
But I'm rooting for humans, cuz I is one, FER DA EMPRA!
Those are my two cents on the madder.
After all these years of searching for Marbo...he found me. Heretics beware! He's back!
The Emperor created the Great Crusade knowing all these horrible things would happen to people that wouldn't join, but he didn't take any joy out of the fact. He felt plenty of guilt, but he did it because he knew a unified, secular human empire forged in blood was preferable to the alternative.
Yeah, humans do some pretty terrible things in 40k. But my favorite quote about anything in 40k is about Exterminatus, and I think sums up 40k pretty well:
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand know that you have no right to let them live."
Nivek5150 wrote: The Emperor created the Great Crusade knowing all these horrible things would happen to people that wouldn't join, but he didn't take any joy out of the fact. He felt plenty of guilt, but he did it because he knew a unified, secular human empire forged in blood was preferable to the alternative.
Yeah, humans do some pretty terrible things in 40k. But my favorite quote about anything in 40k is about Exterminatus, and I think sums up 40k pretty well:
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand know that you have no right to let them live."
When has the Emperor ever expressed guilt for any of the atrocities he committed?
You seem to be equating the differences of Humans and Aliens to the purely cosmetic differences between different human individuals.
Redhead, Blonde, Black, White, etc...
All are Humans. Eldar are not Humans. Orks are not Humans. Tau are not Humans. etc...
Saying they have the same rights as humans is just as absurd as saying a dog or a cow has the same rights as a human. They cannot have the same rights, they arn't Human.
I'm doing no such thing. I am saying that it is completely impossible to make a rational argument that simply by belonging to the category "human" something has access to certain rights. It's not even wrong, it's just gibberish.
Your argument form works as well for a cow or dog as it does for a human... "Humans are not cows. Dogs are not cows. Humans and dogs cannot have the same rights, as they are not cows."
But why would you give a cow rights? Why would you give humans rights? Is it simply because "human" is the only animal with those letters in that order? Because if not, you are going to have to resort to categories outside of the word "human". If humans have rights because they are sentient, then so do Tau and Eldar. If humans have rights because they are bipeds, then so do Tau, Elder, Orks, and Chickens. If humans have rights because they exactly match the proportions and genetic code of their ancestors, then Imperial Guard have rights but Space Marines, Ogryn and Squats do not.
If you want to discuss rights, you need to define what rights are, and further what categories and traits confer them. Until that point, my argument that humans do not get rights because they are not cows is just as good as your argument that cows do not get rights because they are not human.
The nature of what can be considered 'Good' is pretty deep philosophy and as previously mentioned you can't judge aliens by human values, after all they are 'alien' .
As a test, Id ask: so everyone has to fight wars to survive, I mean, its a mean universe so its kill or be killed right? But who kills more than they need to? Are they cruel about it?
I'd rank it this way:
a- Kills indiscriminately, for fun and tortures to boot
CSM/Daemons
Dark Eldar
b- kills to ensure survival but is perhaps a bit thorough
Mankind
Necrons
c- Kills instinctively, little free will
Orks
Tyranids
d- Kills only when necessary
Eldar
Tau
That's my angle on it, there is also a couple of other ways you could judge who is good, for example which faction exercises the greatest acts of Altruism; that is, who helps another race out at cost to themselves? (immediately that won't work because even Dark Eldar, who are one of the most genocidal factions helped out Eldar, even if just because they found their ventures into 'necromancy' with Wraith constructs interesting).
Also it is said the merit of a society can be judged by how well they care for their most vulnerable. Mankind certainly has no time for their worst off, unless they're valuable warriors, of course. The Necron make sure everyone is shiny and in fully working order. I'd say Eldar are pretty much best here, craftworlds actually sound like pretty nice places to be.
What about how fair and just each society is? What personal liberties are there? How about votes and democracy? The Imperium is a totalitarian dictatorship, so pretty much worst there. At least Chaos and Orks are meritocracies, even if it is only by who is biggest/strongest/most brutal. Are Dark Eldar Kabals monarchies? Thats the impression I got, certainly Commorragh is mostly anarchy so you can do what you want, unless you're a slave of course. Again, I get the feeling that Tau and Eldar are top here.
Those are just some of my thoughts on the matter, as said many times in 40k there isn't really any true 'good', but this a positive thing because there isn't really a true 'good' in real life either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/30 10:34:59
Humanity has learned what it has to do to survive, ethics is a long gone argument. They know mutants can't be trusted and are signs of bad things, execute them. They know untrained psykers can kill and reek havoc upon the populace, so they hunt them down. They know the dangers of chaos and the aliens influence, so the Inquisition stamps it out. It may come across as 'evil' and 'wrong' but if they didn't do those things they would be ripped apart by chaos xenos and themselves.
To quote Bane
A necessary evil
Without it humanity would of been crushed by the galaxy's inhabitants
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: Humanity has learned what it has to do to survive, ethics is a long gone argument. They know mutants can't be trusted and are signs of bad things, execute them. They know untrained psykers can kill and reek havoc upon the populace, so they hunt them down. They know the dangers of chaos and the aliens influence, so the Inquisition stamps it out. It may come across as 'evil' and 'wrong' but if they didn't do those things they would be ripped apart by chaos xenos and themselves.
To quote Bane
A necessary evil
Without it humanity would of been crushed by the galaxy's inhabitants
SixthRanger has entered the game 
"Jon's here!" "Jon's dead!" "Jon became difficult terrain!" 
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant! 
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