Got an interesting question for the dakkadakka community. If you are on a skyshield landing pad with doom of malan'tai and he is using his spirit leech against your units would you be able to take the 4++ from the pad?
The reason I ask is because they allow you to take cover saves from it if you were in area terrain I would assume the same idea would work with the landing pad?

Shielded: Units on top of a shielded Skyshield Landing Padhave a
4+ invulnerable saveagainst enemy Shooting attacks.

So yes, you get your save. Invul is very different than cover.

Spirit leech is not a shooting attack. Skyshield specifies the invul save from enemy shooting attacks. Doesn't give a general invul save. I would say no. The faq states cover saves can be taken against spirit leech. Again tough this is an invul not a cover save....

Ahh, that is a good point. Interesting.

You will most likely be eligible for a cover save from the skyshield if it is Furled. Unless the Doom is actually on the pad.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless the Doom is actually on the pad.

Original Post wrote:If you are on a skyshield landing pad with doom of malan'tai

I read too fast.

S'okay, I forgot that his power was super special and not a shooting power.

 pretre wrote:
S'okay, I forgot that his power was super special and not a shooting power.

Except if its not a shooting attack, you dont actually have any rules allowing you to resolve the hits or wounds.

Like I said, super special. I'll let it go. I am certainly not well versed on the Doom. I figured it was just an easy answer with the skyshield quote.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
S'okay, I forgot that his power was super special and not a shooting power.

Except if its not a shooting attack, you dont actually have any rules allowing you to resolve the hits or wounds.

Yeah, lets nerf those stupid OP nids.

My reasoning basically is any non melee attack you would get a 4++ invul save from even if they were on the pad with you so it's basically treated like an "area terrain" effect so the invul save would be allowed.

TaddleMunkey wrote:
My reasoning basically is any non melee attack you would get a 4++ invul save from even if they were on the pad with you so it's basically treated like an "area terrain" effect so the invul save would be allowed.

There's a difference between 'non-melee' (your words) and 'enemy shooting attack' (the rule).

No, the Invuln is only allowed against shooting attacks.

Cover saves don't have the same requirement. There isn't a list of what you can take cover against, there is a list of what you cannot take it against. Melee attacks for one, and any attack that specifically ignores cover.

The problem with that is the skyshield specifies shooting attacks. There are plenty of attacks that are not classified as shooting or assault that would go through just because they are not shooting or assault. Dooms spirit leech. Mawlocs terror from the deep. Even Maledictions like Objuration Mechanicum hits against vehicles. Not shooting attacks. Yes there are people that are gonna try and say they dont work because you cant allocate or vehicles cant use invul. blah blah blah. Not here to argue that, dont really care. They however are not shooting attacks so skyshield wouldn't apply.

I agree to that but you get the 4++ from inside the terrain even if they guy is a foot in front of you. I would assume the force field would interfere with this ability aswell, just like area terrain interferes with it even if you were a foot away.

Also they had to faq that you can get cover saves from Spirit Leech, thats the only reason why it's allowed but I feel the terrain is acting in the same way is all. I realize it's an invul but it's an invul you get while on that piece of terrain.

If it was just a standard invul then yeah there would be no problem, but its a special circumstance invul. Shooting activates it. No shooting, no invul. They may be similar yes but its a classification of the attack type that determines save or no sve. It wold be like me saying my swarmlord gets an invul save from an orks deffroller because its hitting me.

Backlash wrote:
If it was just a standard invul then yeah there would be no problem, but its a special circumstance invul. Shooting activates it. No shooting, no invul. They may be similar yes but its a classification of the attack type that determines save or no sve. It wold be like me saying my swarmlord gets an invul save from an orks deffroller because its hitting me.

As Nos said:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except if its not a shooting attack, you dont actually have any rules allowing you to resolve the hits or wounds.

So it has to be a shooting attack or you can not resolve the hits or wounds from Spirit Leech.

I'm going to have to agree with Nosferatu and play it dirty then and just say he can't allocate so he can't use that attack. Thanks guys!

TaddleMunkey wrote:
I'm going to have to agree with Nosferatu and play it dirty then and just say he can't allocate so he can't use that attack. Thanks guys!

That isnt a hugely sensible way to go, I tend to treat it as exactly like a shooting attack, for all parts.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I tend to treat it as exactly like a shooting attack, for all parts.

Treating it exactly like a shooting attack, for all parts is how my group does it as well. It causes the least amount of issues doing it tha way.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I tend to treat it as exactly like a shooting attack, for all parts.

Treating it exactly like a shooting attack, for all parts is how my group does it as well. It causes the least amount of issues doing it tha way.

Yeah I would agree to the same thing but sadly the person who uses him in my group would never go for it, he is a rules stickler. Also now hes talking about being able to use Mawloc's ability to move the skyshield landing pad because it's a model by popping up in the center of it? Thoughts?

TaddleMunkey wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I tend to treat it as exactly like a shooting attack, for all parts.

Treating it exactly like a shooting attack, for all parts is how my group does it as well. It causes the least amount of issues doing it tha way.

Yeah I would agree to the same thing but sadly the person who uses him in my group would never go for it, he is a rules stickler. Also now hes talking about being able to use Mawloc's ability to move the skyshield landing pad because it's a model by popping up in the center of it? Thoughts?

Ask him to not be a tool?
It seems that he likes to break the game with narrow rules reading.

Ohh if only the 40k universe were filled with people that just wanted to have fun while playing. lol

TaddleMunkey wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I tend to treat it as exactly like a shooting attack, for all parts.

Treating it exactly like a shooting attack, for all parts is how my group does it as well. It causes the least amount of issues doing it tha way.

Yeah I would agree to the same thing but sadly the person who uses him in my group would never go for it, he is a rules stickler. Also now hes talking about being able to use Mawloc's ability to move the skyshield landing pad because it's a model by popping up in the center of it? Thoughts?

The Skushield is not a model, as "each model has its own characteristics profile." P. 2

The skyshield does not have a profile so it is not a model (It is terrain).

A model has both a characteristics profile and a unit type. A skyshield has neither; it's not a model. It's terrain.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
S'okay, I forgot that his power was super special and not a shooting power.

Except if its not a shooting attack, you dont actually have any rules allowing you to resolve the hits or wounds.

I now have a friend that claims that because you cause the wounds in the shooting phase you can then allocate the wounds normally because you caused x wounds regardless on if it was a shooting attack or not. What say you?

TaddleMunkey wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
S'okay, I forgot that his power was super special and not a shooting power.

Except if its not a shooting attack, you dont actually have any rules allowing you to resolve the hits or wounds.

I now have a friend that claims that because you cause the wounds in the shooting phase you can then allocate the wounds normally because you caused x wounds regardless on if it was a shooting attack or not. What say you?

The rules from page 12 on describe how to handle shooting attacks - we know that because of what's on page 12.
Find the resolution for non-shooting attacks.

Well you would resolve the attacks based on what the Spirit Leech rule says. Take the leadership test and for every wound you are over you take a wound. Those wounds would then go to the wound pool no?

Well the wound pool is described in the shooting section, so the only allowance to move wounds to the wound pool is for shooting (And CC attacks, but Leech is not a CC attack).

TaddleMunkey wrote:
Well you would resolve the attacks based on what the Spirit Leech rule says. Take the leadership test and for every wound you are over you take a wound. Those wounds would then go to the wound pool no?

The unit takes X wounds.
Find guidance on how to populate the wound pool. Find guidance on how to allocate from the wound pool. Do so without referencing anything in the section starting on page 12 as that section deals solely with shooting attacks.

The thing is the attack is done in the shooting phase so you would then just make him take the leadership test and then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Do you think thats how they would allow this attack to be done in a tournament? If not how would they word it to a player so that they can't use it?

TaddleMunkey wrote:
The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Only when there is a conflict.

TaddleMunkey wrote:
The thing is the attack is done in the shooting phase so you would then just make him take the leadership test and then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Do you think thats how they would allow this attack to be done in a tournament? If not how would they word it to a player so that they can't use it?

Ther is no "what you do in the shooting phase for wounds"

THere IS "here is how you deal with wounds FROM SHOOTING"

There is a difference.

In a tournament I have always simply ruled that Doom, Mawloc are just "shooting" powers - so in 6th edition you cannot wound what Doom cannot see around him, for example. This leads to the most consistent application of the rules where otherwise the power would simply not function.

TaddleMunkey wrote:
then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Page 12+ deal with shooting attacks. If it's not a shooting attack you cannot reference those sections.

Do you think thats how they would allow this attack to be done in a tournament? If not how would they word it to a player so that they can't use it?

I've seen it done as a shooting attack that doesn't require LoS (and therefore ignoring Out of Sight) or have range restrictions (and therefore ignores the stupid Out of Range change) and I've seen it done as a normal shooting attack being restricted by those two rules.

Check with the TO before you start.

The fact the the FAQ let cover saves be taken against this attack muddied the water and point to it indeed being a shooting attack.

Weirdy in 2 tourney's I've been to the TO simply picked up the codex and said "All units within........bla bla bla" and said the permission to wound is granted by the codex and not to overthink it.

I play the Doom so it was to my advantage. Bottom line no matter how you play it right now, it is HIWPI and not RAW. RAI is debatable, especially concidering the FAQ.

Friendly games to avoid the drama I play it as a shooting attack with no deny the witch. Tournament its good to over with the TO first.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

TaddleMunkey wrote:
The thing is the attack is done in the shooting phase so you would then just make him take the leadership test and then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Do you think thats how they would allow this attack to be done in a tournament? If not how would they word it to a player so that they can't use it?

Ther is no "what you do in the shooting phase for wounds"

THere IS "here is how you deal with wounds FROM SHOOTING"

There is a difference.

In a tournament I have always simply ruled that Doom, Mawloc are just "shooting" powers - so in 6th edition you cannot wound what Doom cannot see around him, for example. This leads to the most consistent application of the rules where otherwise the power would simply not function.

The logic they are using is Spirit Leech is done in the shooting phase so when you have wounds in the shooting phase the only place you could reference is the BRB under shooting phase for allocate wounds. No where on page 15 does it specify that you have to use shooting attacks to allocate wounds. I see both points here, I just want to know who is the most right and why,

We've given you "why" - because the rules on page 15 are entirely in the context of shooting wounds. You cannot read it any other way, literally, unless you are ignoring / rewriting the rules.

Ask them to show you the exact rules for this attack and allocating wounds. They cannot do so.

TaddleMunkey wrote:
The logic they are using is Spirit Leech is done in the shooting phase so when you have wounds in the shooting phase the only place you could reference is the BRB under shooting phase for allocate wounds. No where on page 15 does it specify that you have to use shooting attacks to allocate wounds. I see both points here, I just want to know who is the most right and why,

The only way to reference the rules on page 15 is to begin on page 12 with a shooting attack.
Referencing page 15 is only allowed with a rule allowing it.
Cite the rule that allows a non shooting attack to reference page 15.

Oh - it doesn't exist? Oh. Well, that'd mean that pretending Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack and can be resolved RAW is incorrect.

They are just going to ask me where it says they CAN'T reference page 15 when relating wounds to a shooting phase.

TaddleMunkey wrote:
They are just going to ask me where it says they CAN'T reference page 15 when relating wounds to a shooting phase.

Where does it say you can't use a flamethrower and melt all their models?

I'm glad you can understand the frustration here lol

TaddleMunkey wrote:
I'm glad you can understand the frustration here lol

Explain to them that 40K is a permissive ruleset. IF he does not understand, then explain the following to him.


The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

I'm not frustrated, I'm showing you the failure in their line of thinking.

In a permissive rule set you must have rules allowing you to do things - meaning you can't skip from rule t rule in the book; you have to have a reason to go there. Normal shooting attacks have a path to page 15. Non-shooting attacks that cause wounds in the shooting phase do not, RAW.

rigeld2 wrote:

TaddleMunkey wrote:
then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Page 12+ deal with shooting attacks. If it's not a shooting attack you cannot reference those sections.

Not entirely true. You could reference this section for any special rule that said to use the shooting allocation rules even if it was not a shooting attack. Which is, what I think should be FAQed for Spirit Leech, however GW has not don that yet so we get arguments of how how to shoe horn a 5e special rule in to 6e.

barnowl wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

TaddleMunkey wrote:
then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Page 12+ deal with shooting attacks. If it's not a shooting attack you cannot reference those sections.

Not entirely true. You could reference this section for any special rule that said to use the shooting allocation rules even if it was not a shooting attack. Which is, what I think should be FAQed for Spirit Leech, however GW has not don that yet so we get arguments of how how to shoe horn a 5e special rule in to 6e.

Yes, obviously exceptions are special. Reading the thread for context is key.

I've considered using the Landing Pad for several of my lists and I am also a Tyranid player. I've looked over the rules of the landing pad several times and they are very clear. If you want to interpret the rules for yourselves you can. Be my guest. But they are written how they are written. You either follow the rules as I'll describe them or you can play "house rules". That's up to you.

In the T:C, it reads (pg 58):

Spirit Leech: At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai must take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armor saved allowed.

This happens during the Shooting Phase but no where does it state it as a Shooting Attack. This is a special rule. Hundreds of models in this game have them, you follow them as written.

In the BRB, it reads (pg 115):

Shielded: Units on top of a shielded Skyshleld Landing Pad have a 4+ invulnerable save against enemy Shooting attacks.

If the walls of the Landing Pad are up, it's considered Shielded. This provides 4+ invulnerable save against enemy SHOOTING ATTACKS. Nothing about anything else in game. Not Psychic Maledictions or Assaults or special rules. Only Shooting Attacks (or Psychic Shooting attacks).

In the most recent FAQ, it was stated that the Spirit Leech from a Doom of Malan'tai wounds can be saved by Cover saves (as well as invulnerable). If the model has an invulnerable save, then it can be used to save wounds from Spirit Leech, however, the Landing Pad does not provide this save. The Landing Pad only offers the 4+ if the gates are up and the wounds are made by a Shooting Attack.

Furthermore, it is also argued that the Landing Pad is area terrain. Most area terrain provides cover. However, this is not the case for the Landing Pad.

In the BRB it reads (pg 115):

Terrain Type: Unique. The top surface of the Skyshield Landing Pad is open terrain. To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain.

Open terrain does not provide any cover. You will not get the 4+ Invulnerable save while on top of the Landing Pad, nor will you ever get a cover save while standing on the Landing Pad (from Spirit Leech). Even when moving off and on (which has nothing to do with shooting), it is treated as difficult terrain. Similar to a hill or water, once again, not providing any cover. You could, however, go to ground for a 6+ cover save.

To go into more detail about the Landing Pad and Tyranids specifically, if Termagants are on the Landing Pad and fall under Instinctive Behavior - Lurk, they will run off of it and run towards the nearest Area Terrain (assuming nothing is in range of them to shoot). The Landing Pad is treated as Open Terrain and they cannot sit inside of it without being in Synapse or passing a Leadership test in the Movement Phase.

This is how all the rules read. If you play "house rules" or don't agree with them, you may play with different rules. I simply stated how they read.

Saythings wrote:
I've considered using the Landing Pad for several of my lists and I am also a Tyranid player. I've looked over the rules of the landing pad several times and they are very clear. If you want to interpret the rules for yourselves you can. Be my guest. But they are written how they are written. You either follow the rules as I'll describe them or you can play "house rules". That's up to you.

In the T:C, it reads (pg 58):

Spirit Leech: At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai must take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armor saved allowed.

This happens during the Shooting Phase but no where does it state it as a Shooting Attack. This is a special rule. Hundreds of models in this game have them, you follow them as written.

In the BRB, it reads (pg 115):

Shielded: Units on top of a shielded Skyshleld Landing Pad have a 4+ invulnerable save against enemy Shooting attacks.

If the walls of the Landing Pad are up, it's considered Shielded. This provides 4+ invulnerable save against enemy SHOOTING ATTACKS. Nothing about anything else in game. Not Psychic Maledictions or Assaults or special rules. Only Shooting Attacks (or Psychic Shooting attacks).

In the most recent FAQ, it was stated that the Spirit Leech from a Doom of Malan'tai wounds can be saved by Cover saves (as well as invulnerable). If the model has an invulnerable save, then it can be used to save wounds from Spirit Leech, however, the Landing Pad does not provide this save. The Landing Pad only offers the 4+ if the gates are up and the wounds are made by a Shooting Attack.

And if the Doom's ability is not a shooting attack you have no instruction on how to populate the wound pool, and Spirit Leech does nothing.

Furthermore, it is also argued that the Landing Pad is area terrain. Most area terrain provides cover. However, this is not the case for the Landing Pad.

In the BRB it reads (pg 115):

Terrain Type: Unique. The top surface of the Skyshield Landing Pad is open terrain. To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain.

Open terrain does not provide any cover. You will not get then 4+ Invulnerable save while on top of the Landing Pad, nor will you ever get a cover save while standing on the Landing Pad (from Spirit Leech). Even when moving off and on (which has nothing to do with shooting), it is treated as difficult terrain. Similar to a hill or water, once again, not providing any cover.

To go into more detail about the Landing Pad and Tyranids specifically, if Termagants are on the Landing Pad and fall under Instinctive Behavior - Lurk, they will run off of it and run towards the nearest Area Terrain (assuming nothing is in range of them to shoot). The Landing Pad is treated as Open Terrain and they cannot sit inside of it without being in Synapse or passing a Leadership test in the Movement Phase.

This is how all the rules read. If you play "house rules" or don't agree with them, you may play with different rules. I simply stated how they read.

The underlined is simply not true in all cases. you will get the 4+ for any shooting attacks (More about the doom and shooting attack below) and if the doom uses Spirit Leech and he is not on the pad you will get a cover save.

You are correct that the pad is open terrain, but if the models on top of the pad are obscured from the point of view of the firing model (Say a unit on the ground shooting a unit on the pad) then they will get a cover save if they are obscured.

Plus, the rules for the pad say that you get the 4+ invuln from shooting attacks when on top of the pad when the pad is in Shielded mode.

So either:
1) Spirit Leech is a shooting attack and does not break any rules
Or
2) Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack and you can never populate the wound pool and Spirit Leech does nothing.

1 breaks the least rules and does not render the ability useless.

Saythings - please provide rules to allow you to populate the wound pool. Note you are disallowed from using anything from page 15, as that is only applicable to shooting attacks.

Or, you can realise that allowing the Doom to do anything with SL is a houserule, and we can talk abotu the rest at that point

Saythings wrote:
I've considered using the Landing Pad for several of my lists and I am also a Tyranid player. I've looked over the rules of the landing pad several times and they are very clear. If you want to interpret the rules for yourselves you can. Be my guest. But they are written how they are written. You either follow the rules as I'll describe them or you can play "house rules". That's up to you.

In the T:C, it reads (pg 58):

Spirit Leech: At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai must take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armor saved allowed.

This happens during the Shooting Phase but no where does it state it as a Shooting Attack. This is a special rule. Hundreds of models in this game have them, you follow them as written.

As written, Spirit Leech has no method of allocating wounds. If you disagree, cite the rules please.

Furthermore, it is also argued that the Landing Pad is area terrain. Most area terrain provides cover. However, this is not the case for the Landing Pad.

Most area terrain provides cover (meaning - not all) and therefore something that does not provide cover is not area terrain?

I think the point saythings is making, is that it bypass the normal wound pool mechanic. No reason for it to actaully use the shooting wound pool. This does as rigeld2 points out set up a problem.

TFG says: Doom wounds but can't allocate any of the wounds. Per strict rules lawyering this the YMDC position.

RAI says: It populates a unique pool that is used and emptied before normal shooting phase actions. This is in keeping with how the codex originally worked and about the only way to keep Doom functional

While it is not a shooting attack, CC attack, or Nova Power (which it closely resembles) GW has indicated that it does still get to allocate wounds by providing a FAQ that states you can take cover saves from Spirit Leech. Unfortubnately they let it up to us to figure out between now and the next codex

Special rules are written and must be followed as such. Spirit Leech causes wounds because that is how it is read. It tells us no Armor saves are allowed. Then a FAQ was introduced and it stated Cover Saves are allowed.

In order to receive cover saves, they must be in Terrain that provides Cover. Open terrain does NOT provide cover. The Landing Pad reads are a Unique piece of terrain and it clearly states it counts as open terrain. If it was a shooting attack, you could debate whether actual models use true LOS or not. However, the Spirit Leech, like hundred of models, is a unique special rule and must be treated as such. It is not a shooting test and it adds wounds to the wound pool because the rule states that the unit takes wound for each point they fail by.

I said most terrain provides cover. I worded it as most because some count the field of play to be terrain. It is open ground or open terrian. This provides no cover, there is simply nothing to hide behind. This is actually how the rules on the Landing Pad read. Treat the landing pad as if it was open ground. The Landing Pad can't provide cover. You can argue if a model is not in LOS from a shooting attack because in the BRB a unit shooting another unit must have true LOS. However, since the Landing Pad is open terrain, if the model shooting can see the unit targetted, it will not get cover, regardless of how obscured it is. Open terrain does not provide cover. LOS is a completely different topic that is related to Shooting. LOS is not necessary for this special rule. The Doom simply needs to be within 6" of the unit taking the Leadership Test.

Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. A special rule with special properties. Until Spirit Leech itself is FAQ, you must treat it as written. For each point the unit fails its Leadership Check by, it takes a wound.

Saythings wrote:
Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. A special rule with special properties. Until Spirit Leech itself is FAQ, you must treat it as written. For each point the unit fails its Leadership Check by, it takes a wound.

Yes, the unit takes a wound. Great. No one has argued that.

Now - it's not a shooting attack. How do you allocate the wound?

There is no written rules for Wound Allocation of Spirit Leech; I'd imagine it'd be up to you and your opponent, or a TO if you're in a tournament. Everything in 6th edition points to models closest. Every rule for which model you should take off (short of a barrage weapon) states you take off models closest. This is consistent with shooting, psychic powers, and CC. You could even argue the back of the unit if you wanted to, but I'd imagine your opponent would choose models closest to get out of the 6" for the following shooting phase.

The whole argument of this thread was whether or not they get the invulnerable save. So we agreed, they don't get invulnerable and they don't get cover saves on open terrain because Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. This special rule, without the aid of a FAQ, wounds the enemy unit. It's up to the people playing or the TO for where you're taking the wounds. However, in every aspect of 6th, you'd take off models closest.

This thread shifted from Invulnerable Saves to Cover Saves to Wound Allocation. The first two is answered 100% by RAW. The Landing Pad will not protect units from Spirit Leech, either from Invulnerable Saves OR Cover Saves. It is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. The third part, Wound Allocation, is the tricky part. But if you agree with 1 and 2, it's up to the player's digression where you take the wounds from. You could randomize it between all models if you wanted to. But the wounds will happen regardless.

Saythings wrote:
There is no written rules for Wound Allocation of Spirit Leech; I'd imagine it'd be up to you and your opponent, or a TO if you're in a tournament. Everything in 6th edition points to models closest. Every rule for which model you should take off (short of a barrage weapon) states you take off models closest. This is consistent with shooting, psychic powers, and CC. You could even argue the back of the unit if you wanted to, but I'd imagine your opponent would choose models closest to get out of the 6" for the following shooting phase.

Right - nothing written. So either you treat it as a Shooting/CC attack (Shooting making more sense) or you make up rules. One option makes sense, the other is making stuff up.

The whole argument of this thread was whether or not they get the invulnerable save. So we agreed, they don't get invulnerable and they don't get cover saves on open terrain because Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. This special rule, without the aid of a FAQ, wounds the enemy unit. It's up to the people playing or the TO for where you're taking the wounds. However, in every aspect of 6th, you'd take off models closest.

There's actually precedent for a non-shooting attack to cause Wounds that are allocated.
Soul Blaze.
And using that precedent, you're wrong about what models are removed.

This thread shifted from Invulnerable Saves to Cover Saves to Wound Allocation. The first two is answered 100% by RAW. The Landing Pad will not protect units from Spirit Leech, either from Invulnerable Saves OR Cover Saves. It is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. The third part, Wound Allocation, is the tricky part. But if you agree with 1 and 2, it's up to the player's digression where you take the wounds from. You could randomize it between all models if you wanted to. But the wounds will happen regardless.

Your bolded point is untrue RAW.

Alright. I'm going to assume whenever you play a Tyranid player, you're going to tell them Spirit Leech is useless. You'll also tell them in the transition between 5th and 6th edition the rules for the Doom became unclear. He will except your explanation and the Doom won't use Spirit Leech. Let me know how that goes!

I'd rather not spend anymore time arguing over the rules that don't clearly explain one way or another. I would much rather wait for the new Codex or another FAQ to come that explains this predicament. For all purposes, I clearly explained the ONLY rules that ARE given:

I explained that Spirit Leech is a special rule.
I explained that Spirit Leech has no armor saves.
I explained that Spirit Leech has cover saves.
I explained that Spirit Leech does not count has shooting (as it is a special rule).
I explained that Spirit Leech effects units within 6" (regardless of LOS).
I explained that the Skyshield Landing Pad provides 4+ Invulnerable Save to Shooting Attacks.
I explained that the Skyshield Landing Pad is open terrain.
I explained that open terrain gives no cover save.
I explained that you need true LOS to shoot (but Spirit Leech is not a Shooting Attack)
I, also, explained there are not rules (currently written) for this particular special rule for Wound Allocation.

Your way: There is no written rule on how Spirit Leech works in 6th. There is no 100%-correct way to proceed. You interpret a lack of rules as a loop hole that renders a special rule worthless.

My way: I understand that 6th edition has affected a "5 edition" special rule. I read the BRB and C:T, I do not pick and choose what I read in each. I clearly state what rules are written. I explain how each rule breaks down until you can not break them down anymore. At this point in time, there is no wound allocation for Spirit Leech in 6th edition. However the case may be, all the rules I listed still apply.

In summary, wound allocation is not clear on Spirit Leech (in 6th edition), but all the rules I listed are, in fact, 100% accurate.

Saythings wrote:
Alright. I'm going to assume whenever you play a Tyranid player, you're going to tell them Spirit Leech is useless. You'll also tell them in the transition between 5th and 6th edition the rules for the Doom became unclear. He will except your explanation and the Doom won't use Spirit Leech. Let me know how that goes!

I am a Tyranid player. Don't assume bias where there is none, and don't assume that RAW is HIWPI either. 2 fails so far.

Your way: There is no written rule on how Spirit Leech works in 6th. There is no 100% correct way to proceed. You interpret a lack of rules as a loop hole that renders a special rule worthless.

My way: I understand that 6th edition has effected a "5 edition" special rule. I read the BRB and C:T, I do not pick and choose what I read in each. I clearly state what rules are written. I explain how each rule breaks down until you can not break them down anymore. At this point in time, there is no wound allocation for Spirit Leech in 6th edition. However the case may be, all the rules I listed still apply. Furthermore, wound allocation is not clear on Spirit Leech (in 6th edition), but all the rules I listed are, in fact, 100% accurate.

So... Your way and my way aren't different at all. What's your point again?

No bias. You can play Tyranids all you like, and you could also play them incorrectly. I forgot Tyranid players can't play other Tyranid players.

I'm playing by how the rules are written. Not by what rules aren't written. The point is there is no need to argue this anymore until 6th C:T or another FAQ comes out.

Saythings wrote:
No bias. You can play Tyranids all you like, and you could also play them incorrectly. I forgot Tyranid players can't play other Tyranid players.

Damn, there's no orkmoticon rolling his eyes.

I'm playing by how the rules are written. Not by what rules aren't written.

So you're playing that Spirit Leech can't allocate wounds?
It's a permissive rule set. You only have permission to do what the rules say you can.
If you're playing by what rules are written you have no rules allowing you to allocate Spirit Leech's wounds.

rigeld2 wrote:

Saythings wrote:
No bias. You can play Tyranids all you like, and you could also play them incorrectly. I forgot Tyranid players can't play other Tyranid players.

Damn, there's no orkmoticon rolling his eyes.

I'm playing by how the rules are written. Not by what rules aren't written.

So you're playing that Spirit Leech can't allocate wounds?
It's a permissive rule set. You only have permission to do what the rules say you can.
If you're playing by what rules are written you have no rules allowing you to allocate Spirit Leech's wounds.

Just because this is a RAW forum doesn't mean you have to be mean....

We can all agree there is no RAW for this topic, Codex gives me permission to wound a unit, BRB says I can't allocate those wounds, however doesn't say what to do with un-allocated wounds from non CC/Shooting, thus the game ends there. DRAW.

Or we revert to............

THE GOLDEN RULE

Discuss first, and/or talk to your TO.

Or, as people have pointed out - just treat it as a shooting attack. So out of sight applies, out of range, and most importsantly it is consistent with 6th edition.

Or you could play that you want a special exemption, and unlike other attacks in 6th get to allocate to models out of LOS. At that point a reasonable compromise is the first position, as the correct *rules* way is that SL does nothing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, as people have pointed out - just treat it as a shooting attack. So out of sight applies, out of range, and most importsantly it is consistent with 6th edition.

The only reason I disagree with that is because of Soul Blaze. They are different of course - Spirit Leech has an origin (obviously) and Soul Blaze doesn't, but there is precedent for a special rule to cause wounds and not be resolved as a shooting attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, as people have pointed out - just treat it as a shooting attack. So out of sight applies, out of range, and most importsantly it is consistent with 6th edition.

The only reason I disagree with that is because of Soul Blaze. They are different of course - Spirit Leech has an origin (obviously) and Soul Blaze doesn't, but there is precedent for a special rule to cause wounds and not be resolved as a shooting attack.

But only where the special rule tells you how to determine this. SL is more like a blast shooting attack then it is soul blaze or something similar.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, as people have pointed out - just treat it as a shooting attack. So out of sight applies, out of range, and most importsantly it is consistent with 6th edition.

The only reason I disagree with that is because of Soul Blaze. They are different of course - Spirit Leech has an origin (obviously) and Soul Blaze doesn't, but there is precedent for a special rule to cause wounds and not be resolved as a shooting attack.

But only where the special rule tells you how to determine this. SL is more like a blast shooting attack then it is soul blaze or something similar.

Don't get me wrong - I understand where you're coming from. I just don't see it as an absolute-must-be truth after realizing how Soul Blaze works.

Go-go Gadget: Updated Tyranid FAQ!
Wonder twin Powers Activate!!; Form of: 6th Tyranid Codex!

This is the only way to end this thread

Least we can agree that the Spirit Leech is unaffected by the Landing Pad! Thread sucessful!
The question is: can Spirit Leech wound in 6th edition? (Look at first 2 lines of this post for more detail)

Saythings wrote:
Least we can agree that the Spirit Leech is unaffected by the Landing Pad! Thread sucessful!

It's amusing you think that.
If you treat it like a Shooting attack (nos' platform) there is no reason to deny the Invul save.

There is reason to think shooting. You made that clear. You also made it clear that there is no wound allocation. So it simply didn't work in 6th. If you are willing to count it as a shooting attack, then should be just as willing to treat it as a unique would pool.

You're reading into rules that don't exist. The BRB even tells you, don't forget to have fun. Read that rule and stop being TFG.

IMO, if it happens during the shooting phase whether a 'shooting' attack or not you have permission to allocate wounds as per the shooting phase> Wound allocation section. I've looked it over a few times and I really can't see why 'Wound allocation' only applies to 'shooting' attacks.

I may be missing something. The wording of wound allocation does not specify any type of attack specifically it gives permission to allocate wounds to, only those happening during the shooting phase.

Saythings wrote:
There is reason to think shooting. You made that clear. You also made it clear that there is no wound allocation. So it simply didn't work in 6th. If you are willing to count it as a shooting attack, then should be just as willing to treat it as a unique would pool.

IE a non shooting attack? Sure - that's possible. But it requires creating more rules than just assuming it's a shooting attack.

You're reading into rules that don't exist. The BRB even tells you, don't forget to have fun. Read that rule and stop being TFG.

No, I'm not reading into anything. At all. You've agreed it doesn't work as written and have put forward one way of handling it (that requires making up rules).
Nos has another method - that requires making up no rules but means that the Skyshield invul works.
I have another method - that requires making up no rules.

I'm not saying your method is incorrect, I'm saying that there is no consensus like you wanted to pretend there was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nem wrote:
IMO, if it happens during the shooting phase whether a 'shooting' attack or not you have permission to allocate wounds as per the shooting phase> Wound allocation section. I've looked it over a few times and I really can't see why 'Wound allocation' only applies to 'shooting' attacks.

I may be missing something. The wording of wound allocation does not specify any type of attack specifically it gives permission to allocate wounds to, only those happening during the shooting phase.

Start at page 12. Allocate Wounds and Remove Casualties is part of the Shooting process (step 5).

Hi Rig

Problem is, I see the permission to allocate wounds specifically mentioned for Mawloc's terror of the deep under this 'shooting process'.
This grants permission to allocate wounds via random allocation for special rules which do not follow the normal 1-4 process?
Mawlocs TOTD - these wounds are allocated during the Movement phase, this pretty much opens up the random allocation method in the Shooting Phase to pertain to more than a 'shooting attack'.

Nem wrote:
Hi Rig

Problem is, I see the permission to allocate wounds specifically mentioned for Mawloc's terror of the deep under this 'shooting process'.
This grants permission to allocate wounds via random allocation for special rules which do not follow the normal 1-4 process?
Mawlocs TOTD - these wounds are allocated during the Movement phase, this pretty much opens up the random allocation method in the Shooting Phase to pertain to more than a 'shooting attack'.

You're looking at it wrong - while the Mawloc's TFTD is mentioned as an example under Random Allocation by the rules there's no way for it to actually "get there".
To make the rules work, it makes sense for it be able to do Random Allocation - but by the RAW it just doesn't work.

Hi Rig, I get there via the special rule, I am given permission to do everything.

Mawlocs TOTD
Blast causes hits - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Cause wounds - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Wound allocation - Granted by Random allocation


Doom-
Doom in range for leadership test - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Doom causes wounds - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Doom wound allocation - Granted by Random allocation


The only thing confusing here is my special rules do not follow steps 1 to 4, this is a direct conflict of the rules. Instead of following 1 to 4 I utilise a special rule, and when I come to wound allocation that is permissible by the random allocation section.

Earlier in the thread you asked for something on Pg15 which is not in relation to a shooting attack, well, random allocation deals with allocations from special rules.

Nem wrote:
Hi Rig, I get there via the special rule, I am given permission to do everything.

Mawlocs TOTD
Blast causes hits - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Cause wounds - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Wound allocation - Granted by Random allocation

Find permission to reference Random Allocation outside of a Shooting Attack - considering Allocating Wounds and Removing Casualties is step 5 of a Shooting Attack (page 12 for reference).

The only thing confusing here is my special rules do not follow steps 1 to 4, this is a direct conflict of the rules. Instead of following 1 to 4 I utilise a special rule, and when I come to wound allocation that is permissible by the random allocation section.

Steps 1-4 of the Shooting Attack process you mean?
So obviously you're making a Shooting Attack then, right? Oh - you're not? Um. Then how/why are you referencing Shooting Attack rules? Would you reference Death or Glory rules when you move a vehicle?

Earlier in the thread you asked for something on Pg15 which is not in relation to a shooting attack, well, random allocation deals with allocations from special rules.

There is a skeleton key in the safe. I do not have the combination to the safe nor any way to access the inside of it. Can I unlock the door over there that needs that skeleton key?

Yes, Random Allocation describes that one use is a special rule - but that's not the only use (equidistant models is another relatively common one). To reference a rule you need permission to reference a rule.
Find permission to reference Random Allocation please.

I don't think that random allocation really applies here. There's a clear source of the wounds being taken. They originate from Doom and any unit within 6" can be affected by it.

Clear source and direction of attack should mean that they're handled as normal shooting attack wounds. So allocated to closest model first and so on.

So, I think we can agree that there's no need to look for permission to invoke random allocation.

In which case it's simply a matter of:
1) Doom's ability is a codex special rule, which is allowed to generate hits by virtue of being a special rule. This also allows it to negate standard armour saves.
2) For any hits that are caused, standard shooting allocation is used to assign them.
3) The final steps of wound resolution then apply as per the steps on page 15. We know that this doesn't just apply to shooting attacks, as Vector Strike uses the same steps but only says that it counts as having fired a weapon later in the turn rather than it counts as as shooting attack.

The alternative to the above, which does use more of the BRB is to handle it as a special case Nova power. The special case being that it doesn't require a psychic test and doesn't trigger DTW.

In case one, skyshield doesn't provide it's 4++ due to it not being a shooting attack. Where as in case two it does, as it's just a specialised special shooting attack.

Doom is clearly a special rule, that does things differently. It's not the only time a codex special rule is going to muddy the waters and without GW being more vigorous with their play testing of things and writing down things exactly as they're intended to happen it's going to be down to individual groups / TOs to sort things out.

The only other option is to simply put this discussion on hold until either GW get more responsive with their FAQs / get the rules trolls back at work in the mail order department / release a new 'nid codex. Though the latter may not clear things up fully after some of the issues with the CSM and DA 'dexs.

We've not run into this case locally yet, as we're not playing the kind of games where Doom turns up. Though I'd be more inclined to handle it as a nova power rather than anything else. As that's how it feels it should work based on the description. Either way, if the 'nids are that close I've got other things to worry about,like half my psykers getting attacked by gribblies from the warp and leaving the rubrics with no one to guard.

TL;DR - It's a bit muddy rules wise, due to being a carry over from a previous edition. Use standard allocation for wounds

Well, in the case of Vector Strike there is a clear source of the wounds being taken and GW said its random in that case.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, in the case of Vector Strike there is a clear source of the wounds being taken and GW said its random in that case.

Hi

This was errata'd to specifically mention using random allocation in its entry. Were people claiming you couldn't allocate wounds from vector strike before?

Rig;
As far as I see I have all the permissions I need RAW, Asking me to look for an allocation method somewhere other than the shooting phase is not needed, Permission is granted on that page, it specifically mentions a non shooting attack, and how to allocate wounds. By using special rules, I disrupt the normal turn sequence and allocate this way.

The issue was it was unclear what to do if the model vector striking moved off the table.

Nem wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, in the case of Vector Strike there is a clear source of the wounds being taken and GW said its random in that case.

Hi

This was errata'd to specifically mention using random allocation in its entry. Were people claiming you couldn't allocate wounds from vector strike before?

Yes, absolutely.

Rig;
As far as I see I have all the permissions I need RAW, Asking me to look for an allocation method somewhere other than the shooting phase is not needed, Permission is granted on that page, it specifically mentions a non shooting attack, and how to allocate wounds. By using special rules, I disrupt the normal turn sequence and allocate this way.

So the Death or Glory rules mention movement.
Any time I move my Land Raider I demand you choose Death or Glory with your HQ.
Wait - you want me to Tank Shock first? Balderdash! Movement is mentioned in DoG and therefore I can reference it any time I move! By moving I'm disrupting the normal turn sequence!

@Grey Oops bad reading skills


Rig; I'm applying rules in a sensible way. Think your exaggerating my point a bit.
The random allocation permissions are in the Shooting phase, Doom's ability is activated in the shooting phase, where else are they going to put it?

I like Adepticon's way of handling the odd stuff that crops up which needs to be sorted out 'on the fly'.

This may or may not be the way your group handles it, but it is HIWPI.

"The best way to resolve these issues is to ask yourself the following:
1. Is there any existing Warhammer 40,000 rule you can use as a precedent?
2. What is the most reasonable thing that would happen in this situation?
3. What are the two most likely outcomes and then roll a D6: 1-3 = Go with solution 1; 4-6 = Go with solution 2.
4. If all else fails, ask a judge, however, the judge's decision is final. "

Form: http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=2522

For #1 the most similar thing to the doom's ability is a Nova Psychic power, which is a shooting attack. It seems the easiest way to resolve it as RAW the ability does nothing.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, in the case of Vector Strike there is a clear source of the wounds being taken and GW said its random in that case.

True, in this particular case we know where the wounds are coming from. Though as VS is essentially the model hitting the unit when it's directly over head random allocation does make sense and is supported by the errata.

My reference to VS wasn't an argument for how the wounds should be allocated, simply a reference to how things can happen outside of the standard turn order when allowed by special rules.

rigeld2 wrote:So the Death or Glory rules mention movement.
Any time I move my Land Raider I demand you choose Death or Glory with your HQ.
Wait - you want me to Tank Shock first? Balderdash! Movement is mentioned in DoG and therefore I can reference it any time I move! By moving I'm disrupting the normal turn sequence!

That's not quite the same thing though, as DoG specifically says when it happens and there's restrictions to when you can activate that rule. Whilst you're more than welcome to attempt to reference it, the very section itself starts out by saying when you can activate it. So, if you're moving your land raider at the other side of the board, you can't activate it, where as if you're running over my HQ I'll more than happily let you activate it should the pre-requisite be met.

I'm still inclined to say that the closest thing that makes this work RAW is Nova without a test or DTW required to make it work.

As regards to Doom, I spoke with my TO (FLGS Manager) today and he reads it as a special rule. It is not listed as shooting. Therefore 4+ invulnerable save does not go into effect on a landing pad. Furthermore, the Landing Pad is considered open terrain and can never give cover. The Doom does not need true LOS as it is not a shooting attack. He only needs to be within 6" of the affected unit (similar to KFF, Blood Chaline, and other 6" aura special rules). Wounds are applied regardless if they are models closest or at random. The two players can agree to one or the other or have a roll off.

The fact that there is no definite ruling on Wound Allocation makes it a "player call". (This is a rule, in fact it's the most important roll, Rigeld2).

In BRB, pg 4:

The Most Important Rule

In a game of the size and complexity of Warhammer 40,000, there are bound to be occasions where a situation is not covered by the rules, or you can't seem to find the right page. Even if you know the rule, sornetimes it is just a really close call, and players don't agree on the precise outcome. Nobody wants to waste valuable gaming time arguing, so be prepared to interpret a rule or come up with a suitable solution for yourselves (in a rnanner befitting the better class of Imperial Citizen, of course). If you find that you and your opponent cannot agree on the application of a rule, roll a dice to see whose interpretation will apply for the remainder of the game - on a
result of 1 -3 player A gets to decide, on a 4-6 player B decides. Then you can get on with the fighting! Once the game is over, you can happily continue your discussion as to the finer points of the rules.

1-3 Wound Allocation - Models Closest
4-6 Wound Allocation - Random

At least I got my answer on how the Doom works. Next tournament is 2/16.

Saythings wrote:
As regards to Doom, I spoke with my TO (FLGS Manager) today and he reads it as a special rule. It is not listed as shooting. Therefore 4+ invulnerable save does not go into effect on a landing pad. Furthermore, the Landing Pad is considered open terrain and can never give cover. The Doom does not need true LOS as it is not a shooting attack. He only needs to be within 6" of the affected unit (similar to KFF, Blood Chaline, and other 6" aura special rules). Wounds are applied regardless if they are models closest or at random. The two players can agree to one or the other or have a roll off.

The fact that there is no definite ruling on Wound Allocation makes it a "player call". (This is a rule, in fact it's the most important roll, Rigeld2).

In BRB, pg 4:

The Most Important Rule

In a game of the size and complexity of Warhammer 40,000, there are bound to be occasions where a situation is not covered by the rules, or you can't seem to find the right page. Even if you know the rule, sornetimes it is just a really close call, and players don't agree on the precise outcome. Nobody wants to waste valuable gaming time arguing, so be prepared to interpret a rule or come up with a suitable solution for yourselves (in a rnanner befitting the better class of Imperial Citizen, of course). If you find that you and your opponent cannot agree on the application of a rule, roll a dice to see whose interpretation will apply for the remainder of the game - on a
result of 1 -3 player A gets to decide, on a 4-6 player B decides. Then you can get on with the fighting! Once the game is over, you can happily continue your discussion as to the finer points of the rules.

1-3 Wound Allocation - Models Closest
4-6 Wound Allocation - Random

At least I got my answer on how the Doom works. Next tournament is 2/16.

Umm yea I am going to leave this right here:

7. Do not bring The Most Important Rule (TMIR) into these rules discussions. While it is something you should most certainly abide by while playing (if you're not having fun, why ARE you playing?), it does not apply to rules debates.

From: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

You got your answer on how doom works for you. but for others rulings could be different.

P.S. the underlined above is just totally wrong. If a unit is on top of a shielded Landing pad, and they are shot at from a unit on the ground, they should receive a cover save because there is a wall surrounding the landing pad, and most models will be 24% or more obscured from that wall...

The Landing Pad is considered open terrain and can never give cover (in regards to the Doom). The topic of the thread. It is not a shooting attack, the unit affected simplies needs to be within 6". 25% obscurity is not an issue.

Nem wrote:
Rig; I'm applying rules in a sensible way. Think your exaggerating my point a bit.
The random allocation permissions are in the Shooting phase, Doom's ability is activated in the shooting phase, where else are they going to put it?

It's location is fine. Just put a line to the effect of "This ability uses Random Allocation to allocate and resolve the wounds caused." In the 6th edition errata on Spirit Leech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I like Adepticon's way of handling the odd stuff that crops up which needs to be sorted out 'on the fly'.

This may or may not be the way your group handles it, but it is HIWPI.

"The best way to resolve these issues is to ask yourself the following:
1. Is there any existing Warhammer 40,000 rule you can use as a precedent?
2. What is the most reasonable thing that would happen in this situation?
3. What are the two most likely outcomes and then roll a D6: 1-3 = Go with solution 1; 4-6 = Go with solution 2.
4. If all else fails, ask a judge, however, the judge's decision is final. "

Form: http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=2522

For #1 the most similar thing to the doom's ability is a Nova Psychic power, which is a shooting attack. It seems the easiest way to resolve it as RAW the ability does nothing.

I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

prankster wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So the Death or Glory rules mention movement.
Any time I move my Land Raider I demand you choose Death or Glory with your HQ.
Wait - you want me to Tank Shock first? Balderdash! Movement is mentioned in DoG and therefore I can reference it any time I move! By moving I'm disrupting the normal turn sequence!

That's not quite the same thing though, as DoG specifically says when it happens and there's restrictions to when you can activate that rule. Whilst you're more than welcome to attempt to reference it, the very section itself starts out by saying when you can activate it. So, if you're moving your land raider at the other side of the board, you can't activate it, where as if you're running over my HQ I'll more than happily let you activate it should the pre-requisite be met.

I'm still inclined to say that the closest thing that makes this work RAW is Nova without a test or DTW required to make it work.

And the shooting rules specifically say that there's an order to a shooting attack and allocating wounds is part of that order. You need permission to skip steps 1-4 and Spirit Leech isn't worded to skip those.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.

Really? It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.

Really? It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova...

It requires a Leadership test like a Nova...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.

Really? It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova...

It doesn't require a Psyker test like a Nova, it doesn't allow a DtW like a Nova, it affects Psychic immune units/models unlike a Nova...

Perhaps, just maybe, it's a special rule that is similar to a Nova? Oh, right - that's exactly what it is. A special rule that causes wounds. I wonder if there are any other special rules that cause wounds...

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.

Really? It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova...

It doesn't require a Psyker test like a Nova, it doesn't allow a DtW like a Nova, it affects Psychic immune units/models unlike a Nova...

Perhaps, just maybe, it's a special rule that is similar to a Nova? Oh, right - that's exactly what it is. A special rule that causes wounds. I wonder if there are any other special rules that cause wounds...

Similar:
It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova.

Not similar:
It is not a psychic power

it has more in common with a nova than it does the soulblaze rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.

Really? It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova...

It doesn't require a Psyker test like a Nova, it doesn't allow a DtW like a Nova, it affects Psychic immune units/models unlike a Nova...

Perhaps, just maybe, it's a special rule that is similar to a Nova? Oh, right - that's exactly what it is. A special rule that causes wounds. I wonder if there are any other special rules that cause wounds...

Similar:
It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova.

Not similar:
It is not a psychic power

it has more in common with a nova than it does the soulblaze rule.

Yes, when you boil a number of differences down to one line it seems that way.
Here, I can do the same thing:

Similar:
It is a special rule.
It causes wounds.
Wounds must be allocated.

Not similar:
It does some things like a Nova.

See? It's more similar to Soul Blaze!

You guys keep forgetting that a Leadership test is taken. Exactly like a Nova.

 Happyjew wrote:
You guys keep forgetting that a Leadership test is taken. Exactly like a Nova.

But taken by the wrong unit - see?!? Another difference!

It has more things in common with a nova, than with the Soulbalze rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It has more things in common with a nova, than with the Soulbalze rule.

And I disagree.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It has more things in common with a nova, than with the Soulbalze rule.

And I disagree.

Disagree all you want, that does not make it true.

A nova power effects all units within a set distance, just like Spirit Leech.

A nova power it is used in the shooting phase, just like Spirit Leech.

It has one thing in common with soulblaze that is is a special rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It has more things in common with a nova, than with the Soulbalze rule.

And I disagree.

Disagree all you want, that does not make it true.

A nova power effects all units within a set distance, just like Spirit Leech.

A nova power it is used in the shooting phase, just like Spirit Leech.

It has one thing in common with soulblaze that is is a special rule.

And you can pretend that "it's not a psychic power" is just one instance that its dissimilar instead of
1) requiring a Psychic Test - Novas (obviously) require one, Spirit Leech doesn't.
2) targeting all units within range - Novas target, Spirit Leech doesn't.
3) hitting all units within range (a Nova would cause a Grounding test. Spirit Leech doesn't)
4) Novas have a shooting profile. Spirit Leech does not.
5) Novas are Psyker powers. Spirit Leech is not.
6) Novas allow a DtW roll. Spirit Leech does not.
7) Novas cannot effect models/units that are immune to Psychic powers. Spirit Leech can.
Edit: 8) Novas require Warp Charge expenditure - completely forgot about this one.


That's 8 differences wrapped up in your one line. Please don't pretend that's just one difference.

Spirit leech targets all units within range. If it hits them then they are a target of the power. (So that is 2 and 3 taken care of)

your #1, #5,#6,#7 all fall under the fact that Nova's are Psychic powers, and SL is not...

So the only difference is #4 (Which is covered by the fact that novas are psychic powers and SL is not).

 DeathReaper wrote:
Spirit leech targets all units within range. If it hits them then they are a target of the power. (So that is 2 and 3 taken care of)

Citation required. The codex does not say that.

your #1, #5,#6,#7 all fall under the fact that Nova's are Psychic powers, and SL is not...

That's... Kind of my point. You're wrapping them all up into one difference. That's disingenuous.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Spirit leech targets all units within range. If it hits them then they are a target of the power. (So that is 2 and 3 taken care of)

Citation required. The codex does not say that.

Spirit leech P. 58 Nid Dex. (The part that tells us that every unit within 6 inches is effected).

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Spirit leech targets all units within range. If it hits them then they are a target of the power. (So that is 2 and 3 taken care of)

Citation required. The codex does not say that.

Spirit leech P. 58 Nid Dex. (The part that tells us that every unit within 6 inches is effected).

And where does that say targeted again?

The part that tells us that every unit within 6 inches is effected means those units it affects are the target of the power.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The part that tells us that every unit within 6 inches is effected means those units it effects are the target of the power.

Citation?
Targeted has a specific meaning in 40k. As such, you need to prove your assertion.
Edit: Your stance means that the DoM can only ever assault a unit within 6". Also, you're allowing the DoM to target during the opponents turn.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The part that tells us that every unit within 6 inches is effected means those units it affects are the target of the power.

Actually that is not a leap you can make. Target and Effect are two different items in 40k

If you fire a blast that scatters into a close combat, in no way do you ever Target any unit in that close combat, but you definitely do Effect them