So, now that FW killed the Hades drill and instantly made my army illegal I've been searching for a new option. Since I'm limited to veteran squads a standard mech vet list seemed like the answer, especially since I'd had some luck with it in 5th when I wanted to bring an easier list against newer players. However, in 6th I've been encountering two major problems:

1) The 6th edition vehicle rules hate Chimera vets. No more scoring without getting your fragile squad out of the vehicle, explosions are more frequent, 'shaken' results apply to passengers, and hull points crippled their chances of having a transport at the end of the game. So unless I hide them in the back (and remove a major source of firepower) my vets are ending up standing around in the open far away from any objectives. And when 5/6 missions involve objectives this is a very bad thing.

2) The 6th edition metagame hates transports. Necrons are awesome, and Necrons are pretty much designed to kill Chimera spam (tesla spam everywhere and side-armor lightning bolts from their character). Meanwhile flyers are important, and the best way to kill flyers seems to be bringing a large volume of mid-strength shooting, the exact same guns that kill transports efficiently. So even if in theory the vehicle nerfs weren't so bad the metagame ensures that the "standard" 6th edition game is one where Chimera vets die very quickly.

On the other hand, gun tanks are still working fine, and flyers are very powerful. So, my current thoughts on how to deal with this problem:

1) Consider vets in a Chimera just another gun tank. They're often dead and/or out of position by the end of the game if they're using their guns effectively, so don't count them as true scoring units. Instead, they're a 12/10/10 tank with a three-shot melta gun turret, and they're competing with every other gun tank. Scoring is a minor side benefit, their real value will be in how they kill stuff.

2) Emphasize killing over scoring. Bring overwhelming firepower and remove every opposing scoring unit from the table, so that a token Harker squad on a quad gun/Sabre platoon/Vendetta vet drop/etc can claim an objective and win the game. Most likely this means a major reduction in scoring units, I've given serious thought to an 1850 ABG list that contains a single allied Harker squad as its only scoring unit.

3) Use the points freed up to bring even more flyers/artillery/etc.

The one thing I'm not sure on is whether the Chimera veterans even have a place anymore. There's a big potential advantage to limiting the army to infantry and AV 14 + flyers, so should there still be veterans beyond the minimum to fill the Vendettas? Consider the following start to a list:

CCS, 4x melta (in Vendetta)

PCS, 4x flamer (in Vendetta)
IS, melta, LC
IS, melta, LC
LC Sabre guns x3

Vets, Harker, plasma x3, LC, camo

So that's a small screening blob, passengers for the Vendetta, amazing scoring AA guns, and a 2+ save unit to sit on your quad gun and babysit your "home" objective. All for only 650 points, assuming you're already bringing the Vendettas (which is a safe assumption). Now spend the rest of the points on tanks and aircraft and you have a "mech" list that doesn't actually have any Chimera troops.

I don't think chimeras would make very good gun tanks, being pretty expensive for the firepower (most of which very, very short ranged). As a defensive thing, sure, but I'd rather spend 180 points on a properly kitted russ than that many points on a mechvet squad, if what you're looking for is just a gunboat.

I've certainly been seeing the shift of balance go from boys to toys in 6th edition. With all the benefits that shooting got, and with how you don't really need to care about assault, I'd agree that going for higher-firepower options are probably better. The best way to keep your chimeras alive is to kill the things that are good against chimeras.

Also, you do note what chimeras lost, but chimeras also did gain. No longer can they be prevented from moving forward by glancing hits, and they have a much easier time getting cover saves when they're starting out on the line at the beginning of the game. Now, they can also move 18", which is pretty quick. Also, the multilaser got better in killing power against other transports just as other things got better against your transports, and heavy bolters can now focus fire and get to actually use their Ap.

Put another way, chimeras aren't going to survive as long, but you're going to be able to do a lot more with them before they're ruined. You've now just got to think of them more as transports and less as AV12 buildings that people get to hide in.

I'm not an IG player, but as a CSM player, here are my thoughts.

I see much value in Chimeras as weapon platforms. The basic multi laser isn't half bad at threatening flyers, MCs and infantry. Yes, it's not great but it's workable and available in high numbers. Adding a few (or many) Chimera to an ADL and using their weapons to thin out the enemy ranks seems like a viable option. Might even consider giving Vets a heavy weapon to add more long range firepower. Keep this up the first few turns of the game.

For the second half of the game, load your remaining scoring units in any remaining Chimera and go full out towards an objective. The ability to move 18" should get you fairly close to wherever you need to be and you only need to hold the objective for the last turn. Once you're close enough, disemark and move your infantry onto the objective while the Chimera screens them or goes back into fire support mode, either way it's disposable at this point.

Hopefully, 5-6 Chimera and 50-60 Vets will have enough surviving bodies to claim enough objectives to win. If not, it may be time to consider adding some basic infantry squads.

Anyway, just a traitor marine's 2 cents.

 Ailaros wrote:
You've now just got to think of them more as transports and less as AV12 buildings that people get to hide in.

The problem is that mech guard depends on the Chimera for protection. Vets outside of their AV 12 bunker are too squishy to hold an objective, so if your Chimeras get blown up early (as they seem to do now) in your opponent's half of the table (where they'll be if you want to use their passengers) you have very little chance of holding objectives.

 minigun762 wrote:
I see much value in Chimeras as weapon platforms. The basic multi laser isn't half bad at threatening flyers, MCs and infantry. Yes, it's not great but it's workable and available in high numbers. Adding a few (or many) Chimera to an ADL and using their weapons to thin out the enemy ranks seems like a viable option. Might even consider giving Vets a heavy weapon to add more long range firepower. Keep this up the first few turns of the game.

This is not a viable plan. Chimeras that aren't delivering their passengers into effective firing range are not even close to point-efficient. Having a 150+ point melta vet Chimera sitting behind an aegis line and throwing out the occasional multilaser hit is a complete waste, you're better off removing scoring units entirely at that point.

For the second half of the game, load your remaining scoring units in any remaining Chimera and go full out towards an objective. The ability to move 18" should get you fairly close to wherever you need to be and you only need to hold the objective for the last turn. Once you're close enough, disemark and move your infantry onto the objective while the Chimera screens them or goes back into fire support mode, either way it's disposable at this point.

Meanwhile, since you're moving flat out, your veteran squads aren't doing any shooting. And there's no point in playing mech IG if you're not making use of your melta/plasma spam.

Hopefully, 5-6 Chimera and 50-60 Vets will have enough surviving bodies to claim enough objectives to win.

5-6 Chimeras is 750-1000 points. That's way too many points to spend on units that don't contribute anything until late in the game.

If not, it may be time to consider adding some basic infantry squads.

Which is exactly the problem: once you start adding major foot elements you lose target saturation and make life even more difficult for your tanks and Chimeras. If veterans alone can't win the game then mech IG is pretty much dead.

I've recently had a lot of success running multiple Leman Russ tanks with a couple of chimeras tagging along behind as fast reation units, and a blob led by a lord commissar for support. I placed 9th out of 50 at a tourney earlier today; suffering my only significant loss against the new daemons.
I had a game against a mech guard player, but his chimeras didn't end up doing much, and his scoring units met their ends fairly quickly, as chimeras, without proper protection, die VERY quickly, especially if they have to make their way up-field.

If you're interested; here's my list:

Equinox (1750pts)
1750pt Imperial Guard 5th Ed (2009) Roster (Primary Detachment)
Imperial Guard 5th Ed (2009) (Primary Detachment) Selections:
HQ

Lord Commissar
Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon

Troops

Infantry Platoon

Heavy Weapons Squad
3x Mortar

Infantry Squad
Plasma Gun
Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol, Melta Bombs

Infantry Squad
Plasma Gun
Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol, Melta Bombs

Infantry Squad
Plasma Gun
Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol, Melta Bombs

Infantry Squad
Plasma Gun
Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol, Melta Bombs

Platoon Command Squad
4x Flamer
Chimera
Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser
Platoon Commander
Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol

Veteran Squad
6x Lasgun, 3x Meltagun
Chimera
Heavy Flamer, Multi-laser
Veteran Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol

Fast Attack
Vendetta Gunship Squadron
Vendetta
2 Twin-linked Lascannons, Sponson Heavy Bolters

Vendetta Gunship Squadron
Vendetta
2 Twin-linked Lascannons, Sponson Heavy Bolters

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Squadron
Leman Russ Demolisher
Heavy Flamer

Leman Russ Squadron
Leman Russ Exterminator
Lascannon, Multi-meltas
Leman Russ Exterminator
Lascannon, Multi-meltas

Leman Russ Squadron
Leman Russ Executioner
Lascannon, Plasma Cannons

Hope that gave you some ideas

 undead flesh addict wrote:
If you're interested; here's my list:

And here's the problem I'm talking about. To be successful you've reduced the mech element to a single veteran squad and a flamer PCS. By both model/unit count and point total you're playing a foot IG list that happens to have a couple Chimeras. In fact, remove those Chimeras and put their squads in the Vendettas and your list hasn't changed significantly.

So to answer your question more directly; yes, mech IG is dead. It could do well against some lists, but as you mentioned in the original post, necrons a big problem, and they'll be going strong for a while.

I am having moderate success running mech-lite. My list is as follows:
HQ:
CCS: 180
2xPlasma Pistol
4x Plasma Guns
Master of the Fleet
Carapace
Chimera:55
ML/HF

Primaris Psyker: 70

Elites:
Marbo: 65

Troops:
Platoon
PCS: 50
4x flamers
Chimera: 55
ML/HF

Infantry Squad: 115
Lascannon
Commissar
Melta gun

Infantry Squad: 80
Lascannon
Melta gun

Infantry Squad: 80
Lascannon
Melta gun

Veterans: 125
Plasma Pistol
3x Plasma Guns
Chimera: 55
ML/HF

Veterans: 125
Plasma Pistol
3x Plasma Guns
Chimera: 55
ML/HF

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher: 165

Leman Russ Demolisher: 165

Fortification:
Aegis Defense Line: 100
Quad Gun

Allied Blood Angels:
HQ:
Librarian: 100
Blood Lance, Fear the Darkness

Troops:
Assault Squad: 210
+5 men
2x Melta

This list has been successful because it presents multiple threats. Basically, all the mech elements speed forward while the blob camps my objective and marbo/ Assault squad deepstrikes. What do you shoot? I have a 30 man blob that isn't going away with reroll to hit from the BA, but I also have mechanized elements in your face. And all the while I have accurate deepstrike units waiting in the wings to jump on your scary stuff. Modern mech, at least from my experience, dose not win games because it survives long, but because it overwhelms your opponent with very credible threats to the point that they can't do anything. Your average opponent will have a plan for multiple tanks, but I have NEVER seen someone who would have the capability to kill all of the tanks I run in one turn (at least in my meta).

 Peregrine wrote:


1) The 6th edition vehicle rules hate Chimera vets.

I'm not finding this to be as much of an issue as I thought it would be. It requires some forward planning, although in some games it results in a dead vet squad.

2) The 6th edition metagame hates transports.

This is where I'm finding it tough. Chimerae are just too easy to open up. I chose mech because I wanted a mobile force who didn't care about cover, but I find my chimerae hugging cover constantly. I'm scared to bring them out into the open because I know they're going to turn into a camo-patterned coffin for the vets inside.
What's more the AV:10 on the side is just awful. At least land speeders get jink; the chimerae can't get into very good positions or even bolters will take away their hull points and leave the vets stranded. It's very hard to keep them up and running.
Then you have the Heldrake, which is everywhere. With mech you're essentially bringing marine costed units that the Heldrake doesn't care about. Just as easy to kill, and against Harker squads the Heldrake will remove them in one go.

Going for an all out: kill or be killed type of list makes for games that are far too binary. You either have a great turn of shooting where you cripple your opponent who can't recover, or you roll average and you lose. I'm not interested in flipping a coin with guard.

The list I find most effective is similar to the foot list you posted, except with allies. The problem is at 1500pts allies are very hard to fit in. Most of the tournaments I've attended are 1500pts with only a few 1750. I hate to say it, because I love the chimera model: but yes, I think mech guard is dead.

My friend who is still having pretty decent success with mech but his direction has shifted a bit, instead of just fielding veterans in chimera's he's been taking less vets and adding in infantry platoons in chimera's. Yes you loose out on the bs4 and extra 2 spc weapons but he's got many more bodies on the board and many more chimeras to boot. It's been fairly effective for him so far using it in conjunction with all the other av 12 platforms such as the hellhound and various artillery vehicles.

I've abandoned my hopes for playing mech guard, don't want that many chimeras. And my vietnam themed catachans have been having great success with 3+ flyers in 1000pts lol. Or alternatively foot not as much success with foot and leman russ saturation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I forgot to note he plays armageddon steel legion and is still hooked on the old mechanized regiment rules/fluff from, the 3.5 codex lol. But as I said his win ratio hasn't been to shabby. Mine has been hit miss mostly because I've been playing 2 many pair games and losing or tieing on a single measly victory point.

Also, I'd note that if people think mech guard is dead, try foot guard. Mech guard both lost and gained in 6th. Foot guard straight lost.

It will be better to make a go of it with mech, as it's still the best style of guard, rather than to buy and paint 90 infantry models only to get tabled a few times and a row and go back to mech.

Because for the price of two PISs, you get a PIS and a transport. Chimeras may be less durable, but infantry are less durable-er. And that's nothing to say about the force concentration problems of foot lists. I'd rather have the chimera at the moment.

Ailaros I agree, your take on foot guard is struggling, but that's because you have put unnecessary limitations on your lists that other people don't.
I have no qualms in taking three Vendettas, taking allies or taking FW units. All of them really add up to make something very strong.
I'll always side with those people who don't want to do any of those things, because it does irritate me that I have to to make the most competitive list I can, but personally, I don't mind if it means I'm going to win.

I tend to see 3 major builds of IG

Foot-Guard

Foot guard straight up lost strength and gained nothing. It can win, but it will be a much tougher fight

Mech-Guard

Mech won and lost. Vehicles are easier to destroy, but foot lists took such a hit that Mech shines

Air-Cav

With 6th Flier rules, and the Vendetta, Air-Cav is probably one of the best builds. And all it pretty much requires is taking all your vet squads and substituting in Vendetta's instead of Chimeras. Vendetta's in the big amounts you will need pretty much take care of any AT you need. Vets that are properly armed can kill infantry. Only thing is that you will struggle with hordes, but hopefully the hits against foot lists will limit the hordes you will see

EDIT: Also, Vultures are just awesome

But you can add vendettas &c. to mech lists as well. Because the options for support units are the same, you have to look at just the difference between mechvets and infantry platoons.

Traditionally, the difference has been that infantry platoons are more durable and can bring more raw firepower, while mech lists are more mobile and have much better force concentration.

In 6th, though, a lot of that durability has been stripped away from foot lists, what with not having properly hidden upgrades, the addition of focus fire, and a bunch of other things.

Furthermore, getting your bonus firepower to their target is much more awkward for infantry platoons nowadays, what with not being able to put those weapon upgrades at the front, and not being able to advance up field thanks to the loss of by-unit cover, so even if you're bringing more guns at the beginning, you're not actually necessarily doing any more damage.

Add in the fact that you can't seriously run an assault army anymore, which was always a bonus to foot guard, and you've got a situation where infantry platoons got universally worse. Meanwhile, mech lists have gotten MORE mobile, and still have their advantages of force concentration.

I'm not saying that infantry guard is good, I'm saying that all the factors that you limit yourself from using make it good.
Mech lost a lot of its mobility and durability. Foot may have lost durability, but what it's lost there, it's gained in allies. Allies fix the majority of issues that you've put forward concerning the weakness of foot guard.
It's also moved more towards the gun-line, which while is less fun to play, is horribly powerful. T7 artillery that can recieve orders, T7 TL lascannons with interceptor, ATSKNF for blobs, tough units in drop pods. When you combine this you get some serious synergy and something that's far more powerful than pure Codex: IG.

I've been inactive for a month or two now, but I tend to agree with Ailaros. Mech IG should still be the best if you don't want to play a full flyer army. 3/9/18 Vendettas carrying the scoring units and exclusively tanks and artillery on the ground should work like a charm, but I don't have enough Vendettas for that, so I still prefer mech as foot guard gets swept very quickly if they advance in my experience. I'll re-try a quasi-static gunline list sometime, but I don't imagine it will work out very well.

IMO, one serious problem that wasn't mentioned is that vehicles are much easier to hit in 6th, which makes melta Chimeras super vulnerable to screening fast enemy units w/S4 or higher-any SM with a jump pack, Stormboyz, any type of Bike/Jetbike, etc. if they try to get stuff in range.

Of course, the shift to mid strength dakka and the invention of HPs doesn't help either, but I'd say mech IG lives, if only hooked up to an artificial rebreather.

Tournament play? No idea.

Competitive non tournament play? Sure.

This is not a viable plan. Chimeras that aren't delivering their passengers into effective firing range are not even close to point-efficient. Having a 150+ point melta vet Chimera sitting behind an aegis line and throwing out the occasional multilaser hit is a complete waste, you're better off removing scoring units entirely at that point.

Meanwhile, since you're moving flat out, your veteran squads aren't doing any shooting. And there's no point in playing mech IG if you're not making use of your melta/plasma spam.

If you try to get Chimera into short range, you can move 12" and snap fire everything which isn't very impressive. You can move 18" to forgo one turn of shooting to follow up the next turn with full firepower (hopefully).

The problem is that there is no effective way to move significant distance while maintaining full firepower. You can mitigate the range issue somewhat by switching to plasma vets and moving at combat speed every turn. This should give you the full BS multilaser and 3 plasma shots with an effective range of 30".

 minigun762 wrote:

This is not a viable plan. Chimeras that aren't delivering their passengers into effective firing range are not even close to point-efficient. Having a 150+ point melta vet Chimera sitting behind an aegis line and throwing out the occasional multilaser hit is a complete waste, you're better off removing scoring units entirely at that point.

Meanwhile, since you're moving flat out, your veteran squads aren't doing any shooting. And there's no point in playing mech IG if you're not making use of your melta/plasma spam.

If you try to get Chimera into short range, you can move 12" and snap fire everything which isn't very impressive. You can move 18" to forgo one turn of shooting to follow up the next turn with full firepower (hopefully).

The problem is that there is no effective way to move significant distance while maintaining full firepower. You can mitigate the range issue somewhat by switching to plasma vets and moving at combat speed every turn. This should give you the full BS multilaser and 3 plasma shots with an effective range of 30".

I think we may all be overlooking a very serious and crucial point as well.
That is, what we're expecting from the lack luster fire power of a chimera mounted veteran squad. Think about it.
The chimera multilaser is not a good gun, in this case barely reliable. You can't count on it to do anything but be a minor annoyance at best. So that being said, consider plasmas.
At 24", you're only getting 3 plasma shots off. Thats not very good either, particularly not for 170 points when you have to get in range in the first place.
Don't forget common cover can further reduce your firepower even more.
..& gets hot! Even on a 1, everybody has bad rolls, guardsmen will cook themselves off and this is even more dangerous with sustained fire.

Assuming you can get within the 12" sweet spot for meltas or plasmas, the firepower from one unit probably isn't going to put a major dent in anything.

All these factors taken into consideration, I believe veterans are not nearly as dangerous as we've hyped them to be.

So really, maybe its our tactics that need to be rethought. Lets play to our strengths.
If you don't want to park your chimeras back field, you have to move them up to a distance in which you can engage.
18 inch move is what we should play at to get our boys close, & I think the loss in firepower from a bs3 multilaser, and maybe 3 plasma shots is negligent.
However, moving through the open is a death sentence - there is no reason to rush our chimeras to their untimely demise.
Be wary of getting fooled by the safety of cover. 5+ isn't great and even a 4+ isn't worth gambling on. We're gonna put a huge target on these units.
Moving them from cover to cover, LOS blocking is preferable. This has the added effect of drawing opponents into your sweet spot for weapons range.

We need to buff the firepower of a single veteran chimera to count on the tactic. This plays to our other strength, target saturation.
I think chimeras should be played as packs. Groups no smaller then 3, bounding between and behind terrain.
I'm gonna throw this out there too, that our hellhound variants may be sorely overlooked in that they can really help with the offensive capability of such a tactic.
The hellhounds' speed allows them to keep up, adds more juicy targets and most importantly, adds a good strong amount of firepower.

Foot guard is not so bad as people make it out to be. Rather, in itself - maybe, but combined arms is our strength. A platoon in cover in our deployment is tough to move.
Our artillery is very strong, and we want to hide our CCS/take advantage of their orders. So I think the most viable build is

An infantry platoon, lascannon/plasma squads sitting in terrain or behind an aegis on an objective with the CCS and our artillery. This gives firepower from turn 1 and an anvil to break.
A pack of chimera chassis skipping from point to point, some combination of mounted infantry squads/veterans and hellhounds.
Gunships and lemans to taste.

CaseyColt wrote:
An infantry platoon, lascannon/plasma squads sitting in terrain or behind an aegis on an objective with the CCS and our artillery. This gives firepower from turn 1 and an anvil to break.
A pack of chimera chassis skipping from point to point, some combination of mounted infantry squads/veterans and hellhounds.
Gunships and lemans to taste.

This sounds like a really bad idea. You've got a little of everything, but no focus on anything. That means no target saturation, no redundancy, etc. You might do well against similarly unfocused opponents but to be really competitive you need to pick something and be the best at it, not try to do everything at once.

 Peregrine wrote:

CaseyColt wrote:
An infantry platoon, lascannon/plasma squads sitting in terrain or behind an aegis on an objective with the CCS and our artillery. This gives firepower from turn 1 and an anvil to break.
A pack of chimera chassis skipping from point to point, some combination of mounted infantry squads/veterans and hellhounds.
Gunships and lemans to taste.

This sounds like a really bad idea. You've got a little of everything, but no focus on anything. That means no target saturation, no redundancy, etc. You might do well against similarly unfocused opponents but to be really competitive you need to pick something and be the best at it, not try to do everything at once.

What do you think about what I said in regards to the chimeras though?

Makes sense still, I get what you're saying. I suppose if you want to play very competitively, you have to embrace such a linear very competitive dynamic.

I'm under the impression Ailaros and Peregrine don't like the spammy lists or WAAC lists, but I've seen countless vet squad + chimera spam lists in the Lists forum and on battle reports. 1 chimera isn't as effective as it used to be but 6-8 still gets the job done.

As a player and list building I find it hard to squeeze enought AT into a list to take out a reasonable number of Chimeras a turn and still be able to deal with the vets that pop out of it. Your target saturation stays the same (-1 chimera +1 squad).

I'm pretty sure Peregrine likes her competitive lists lol.

Peregrine wrote:

CaseyColt wrote:
An infantry platoon, lascannon/plasma squads sitting in terrain or behind an aegis on an objective with the CCS and our artillery. This gives firepower from turn 1 and an anvil to break.
A pack of chimera chassis skipping from point to point, some combination of mounted infantry squads/veterans and hellhounds.
Gunships and lemans to taste.

This sounds like a really bad idea. You've got a little of everything, but no focus on anything. That means no target saturation, no redundancy, etc. You might do well against similarly unfocused opponents but to be really competitive you need to pick something and be the best at it, not try to do everything at once.

Agreed. The Guard can't get by with very generalist approaches. We need to focus on outgunning/outnumbering our opponent so much in one area that they are overwhelmed. That's why we're called the sledgehammer of the Imperium after all. Leave the "little of everything" to the Space Marines who can actually do that and survive

Griddlelol wrote:I'm pretty sure Peregrine likes her competitive lists lol.

Im sorry to make an off-topic comment here, but is Peregrine actually a girl and I've just been really ignorant and never learned this? Nothing actually gives it away to me haha, im so sorry

Dare I suggest Mech IG switched from Amphibious Personnel Carriers to Flying Personnel Carriers?

I've been having some lovely luck stuffing Veterans into Vendettas and Valkyries, and just filling HS slots with Medusa Artillery Carriages and a Manticore behind an Aegis. Solid Alphastrike, and then flyers come on and the game is in the bag.

 Wingeds wrote:
I'm under the impression Ailaros and Peregrine don't like the spammy lists or WAAC lists, but I've seen countless vet squad + chimera spam lists in the Lists forum and on battle reports. 1 chimera isn't as effective as it used to be but 6-8 still gets the job done.

Ailaros has some weird restrictions about what units he's willing to use.

I love spammy lists. I might not always play them because I'm too busy building different models, but in general I always design the most powerful version of a list and then work from there. My current low opinion of Chimera spam isn't because it's spam, it's because I'm starting to think that it isn't a very effective strategy.

I am currently having some success with Mech IG in my area.

Yes, they suffer from what everybody has has noted above but they gained a few more things which "kinda balances" the issues. Like snap firing when shaken etc.. Some people forget that you can overwatch out of the chimera, so thats 5x models snap firing something nasty usually.

I personally think one of the reasons am doing well atm in my area is, everybody ditched their transports. Its nearly all foot. So nearly everybody is packing more anti-infantry firepower and they have reduced what anti - tank they have.

This helps my current list, a rolling av12 wall is hard to deal with if you havn't planned for that amount of armour.

I am also enjoying the combo of mass multi-lasers and heavy flamers.

I like the ability to change what wep i need depending on how close the enemy is. I find, once 1x chimera has been charged by a unit of orks or something. Regardless of the result, they get bunched up by the charge move then the other chimeras' heavy flamers go to work

The thing is, everything you said can be applied to foot lists too. A blob of 40 men, with prescience has a far more devastating overwatch potential than 10 vets.

I've also had a lot of success with a mech list, but I played it for fun, not because it was particularly competitive. It plays into the current meta's idea of bringing plasma. Plasma doesn't have a problem with destroying my chimerae, it does however fall short when trying to KO fliers or when spent on killing two 5pt guardsmen.

I'd definitely like to see some potential lists that are more than chimera spam, without forge world or allies.

I think it depends on how you use the chimeras with vets. If your plan was to rush up the field and unload with your plasma and melta guns, that plan is not going to work very well. Anything out in the open now gets murdered. Be that light vehicles or infantry.

However, if you take artillery and hide it out of line of sight you can rain high S shots on your enemy without them being able to retaliate. Then your opponent has to come to you. This is where 3-4 chimeras full of vets can make for excellent counter attacking forces. The chimera also protects the guys inside from getting hit by a bale flamer or tesla for at least a turn. The explosion will kill some, but I'd rather take a chance on that than just be shot right away.

As most have pointed out in this thread, infantry is just terrible now (unless you can make bikes or terminators scoring). There's no good way to get across the table for them. Walking is out of the question and transports aren't very good at actually transporting. So what does infantry do now? They hold objectives. So what you need for that are cheap bodies that are not going to break. If you can take a few cheap units that fulfill that criteria, that's all you can expect from them.

This edition is about toys and cheap boys.

Pyreguard wrote:
I personally think one of the reasons am doing well atm in my area is, everybody ditched their transports. Its nearly all foot. So nearly everybody is packing more anti-infantry firepower and they have reduced what anti - tank they have.

Do Necrons and various flyerspam lists just not exist in your area?

CaseyColt wrote:
I'd definitely like to see some potential lists that are more than chimera spam, without forge world or allies.

Just to point out the obvious: I use FW rules just like any other rules GW publishes, and various FW units are important to my lists (of any type). So if you want a no-FW discussion you're probably looking in the wrong place.

So for 55pts, you sit back and nullify the strength of your short range vets? Seems pretty silly. While you guys are sitting in their metal coffin, they're wasting time that they could be contributing. At least foot guard starts ploughing high strength, long range fire from turn one.
Again, foot guard can take artillery and place it out of LoS. You're listing a bunch of things that foot guard can do, but instead of spending 55pts on what is essentially a turn of survivability, you get a whole extra squad.

bogalubov wrote:
However, if you take artillery and hide it out of line of sight you can rain high S shots on your enemy without them being able to retaliate. Then your opponent has to come to you. This is where 3-4 chimeras full of vets can make for excellent counter attacking forces. The chimera also protects the guys inside from getting hit by a bale flamer or tesla for at least a turn. The explosion will kill some, but I'd rather take a chance on that than just be shot right away.

The problem with this is that holding back Chimeras and not shooting effectively with their passengers means wasting points, meanwhile all that tesla/lascannon spam/etc is blowing up Chimeras. This kind of strategy only works when your opponent has very limited anti-transport firepower, and the 6th edition metagame is very strongly in favor of spamming lots of things that kill Chimeras efficiently.

As most have pointed out in this thread, infantry is just terrible now (unless you can make bikes or terminators scoring). There's no good way to get across the table for them.

Vendettas are a great way of getting across the table. The question now is whether to drop my troops to a token scoring unit or two in Vendettas, or if multiple units of Chimera vets still have a purpose in addition to the Vendettas.

 Peregrine wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
However, if you take artillery and hide it out of line of sight you can rain high S shots on your enemy without them being able to retaliate. Then your opponent has to come to you. This is where 3-4 chimeras full of vets can make for excellent counter attacking forces. The chimera also protects the guys inside from getting hit by a bale flamer or tesla for at least a turn. The explosion will kill some, but I'd rather take a chance on that than just be shot right away.

The problem with this is that holding back Chimeras and not shooting effectively with their passengers means wasting points, meanwhile all that tesla/lascannon spam/etc is blowing up Chimeras. This kind of strategy only works when your opponent has very limited anti-transport firepower, and the 6th edition metagame is very strongly in favor of spamming lots of things that kill Chimeras efficiently.

As most have pointed out in this thread, infantry is just terrible now (unless you can make bikes or terminators scoring). There's no good way to get across the table for them.

Vendettas are a great way of getting across the table. The question now is whether to drop my troops to a token scoring unit or two in Vendettas, or if multiple units of Chimera vets still have a purpose in addition to the Vendettas.

I would be thrilled if people wasted their shots on my chimeras. That means they're not shooting the vehicles that are actually doing the damage out there. Last tourney I played 4/5 games I had all 3 of my chimeras still alive by the end of the game. People focused on my artillery while the vets did a great job eating anyone who got too close.

The irony is, with everyone going anti-horde to deal with guard allies and "Troops on the ground" build's, a full mech army would probably knock people for a loop, they would never expect it, and if you took a ton of tanks that could deal with the infantry spam people are running now, you could probably do fantastic by going directly against the "meta"

I realized the same thing Peregrine. My local meta doesn't have Cron Air spam so it took longer to realize this. What I decided to do was to just use the Elysian list from IA8. I went the paratroopers route for the moment as I sell off my chimeras to buy Valks and Vendettas to go Airborne. Or I might just stick with paratroopers.

It mitigates the lack of mobility, and also mitigates the lack of force concentration by allowing you to hit them exactly where you need to.

Vehicles in general, but *especially* anything under AV13, is just too easy to kill in 6E, and lack much of the utility they use to have in regards to at least contesting objectives and scoring with embarked troops. Mechvets have too few T3 5+sv Ld7/8 meatbags to hold objectives outside of transports, while the tanks can't do much to aid them in that role besides try and body-block (often with their ruined hulks).

HP's generally reduce most vehicle lifespans by half in 6E against shooting attacks, and despite many saying CC is dead, it's not (Orks, nids, especially Necrons don't have issues getting lots of units stuck in turn 2, it's the heavy mechanize MEQ assault units that have issues) and there's little in the game easier to kill than tanks in CC (especially as they can't Overwatch) except weak units of Guardsmen.



I've had great success with my aegis line+carapace+artillery (e.g. Rapier Laser Destroyers and Heavy Mortars) foot vet lists, losing only to a very assault oriented Necron army with lots of AV13-shield fire support, but the tanks the mechanized lists rely on are just so bloody easy to kill and lack objective-critical capability that they just don't cut it anymore. Chimeras die faster now than they did in 4E, which is...astounding.

Even Leman Russ centric Armoured Battlegroup lists are oddly fragile.

I think in the last three months I've seen exactly one vehicle die to an explodes result where it still had HP's remaining. They're *super* punitive sadly.

 Evileyes wrote:
The irony is, with everyone going anti-horde to deal with guard allies and "Troops on the ground" build's, a full mech army would probably knock people for a loop, they would never expect it, and if you took a ton of tanks that could deal with the infantry spam people are running now, you could probably do fantastic by going directly against the "meta"

Except the 6th edition meta seems to be very heavy on flyers, and things that counter flyers tend to be very good at destroying Chimeras. The 9999999999 missile launcher lists of 5th are gone, but it's really not much better when they're replaced by necrons with 999999999 tesla guns.

Now, if you manage to find a metagame in which flyers are rare and nobody plays necrons your idea would work beautifully. Without flyers around the focus is more on infantry and anti-infantry, and a mech list can be very effective. I've even had that happen, and had easy wins when my opponent wasn't expecting so many tanks. The problem is that those games seem to be getting rarer and rarer.

Vaktathi wrote:I think in the last three months I've seen exactly one vehicle die to an explodes result where it still had HP's remaining

That's bizzare. Of all the games of 6th I've played so far, I think I've only ever killed a vehicle by stripping it of hull points a handful of times. Likewise, almost all of my own vehicles lost have been in explosions.

Anyways, I think that the real frustration here is this:

bogalubov wrote:Anything out in the open now gets murdered. Be that light vehicles or infantry.

Both sides of the coin - foot and mech - have been really struggling to get units across the board. Perhaps the reason that vendettas are so popular (other than that they're good, and they have a lot of fanboys), is because they're one of the few ways to get units into your opponent's deployment zone. Until they get shot down, at least.

If anything, I think this is the problem to solve. For how much of a reputation that guard has as being overpowered, if we're really rather limited in how much we can get out of our own deployment zone, well, that's a real problem.

 Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I think in the last three months I've seen exactly one vehicle die to an explodes result where it still had HP's remaining

That's bizzare. Of all the games of 6th I've played so far, I think I've only ever killed a vehicle by stripping it of hull points a handful of times. Likewise, almost all of my own vehicles lost have been in explosions.

Statistically, unless being hit by meltaguns, dying to hull points *should* be the norm, by far.

Looking at say, Autocannons vs AV12, you need 72 BS3 autocannon shots to average a single Explodes result, but only a quarter as many (18) to average having killed it through Hull Point loss. Lascannons vs Av12 are more even but still weigh more towards the HP's quite noticeably, requiring an average of 12 lascannon shots to kill through an Explodes result but only an average of 9 to kill through HP's.

You math people....

I get, at least, an explode vehicle every game. Generally it is 2-3 blown vehicle across the board.

But yeah- I never played a game in which a vehicle didn't blow up, all the while having all HP left, or only a sinlge one lost to a glancing shot.

Oh I get vehicles that explode, but they die much more often to HP's, and having one explode where HP's wouldn't have also done it in is rather rare, thus making the damage table rather pointless.

This is one of those conversations that will just keep going back and forth with NO side gaining any ground. I have not lost a single game with my full MechVet list so far in 6th. And before you read this and think that i am just playing new people that do not know have to play, let me say that no i have not. I am here in the DC area and the crowd that we have around here is very competitive and tournament active. I have faced the CronAir, "old" screamer flamer demons, AV13 CronWall, and many more. Do my Chim Chassis die, YES! But the outcome is always the same,... here it is,..... IG in general and Vets jobs in 6thED is now the job of damage output!! If you have overwhelming firepower(which IG can do very easily) than you can blast your enemy off of the table. And if your 55 point Chim dies in an explosion, the only thing that matters for the people inside is that your special weapons in your squad are still firing the next turn. That is WHY you take Vets, and any time you can keep firing the special weapons the squad still has some BIG teeth.

Just my 2 worthless cents

 Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I think in the last three months I've seen exactly one vehicle die to an explodes result where it still had HP's remaining

That's bizzare. Of all the games of 6th I've played so far, I think I've only ever killed a vehicle by stripping it of hull points a handful of times. Likewise, almost all of my own vehicles lost have been in explosions.

Anyways, I think that the real frustration here is this:

bogalubov wrote:Anything out in the open now gets murdered. Be that light vehicles or infantry.

Both sides of the coin - foot and mech - have been really struggling to get units across the board. Perhaps the reason that vendettas are so popular (other than that they're good, and they have a lot of fanboys), is because they're one of the few ways to get units into your opponent's deployment zone. Until they get shot down, at least.

If anything, I think this is the problem to solve. For how much of a reputation that guard has as being overpowered, if we're really rather limited in how much we can get out of our own deployment zone, well, that's a real problem.

I don't think it's a problem that is isolated to guard either. I also play chaos marines too and any build that focuses on having marines on the table is terrible. That is because if you're dumping points in troops you get units that you feel compelled to use since they cost so much, but you have no way to get them across the table. Yeah there are infiltrating lists that are possible, but you're at the mercy of the dice gods how many troops can do that, 1 or 3. If only one unit tries it, it will just get ruined.

It's more important than ever to win the deployment roll so you can end up with more objectives in your own zone so your opponent has to struggle to get to you.

That's why I don't view going mech as a benefit in terms of mobility. It's a benefit in terms of survival. I get to ignore all anti-infantry weapons most of the game and get to overwatch assault units twice from my chimeras.

So I don't think mech is dead. How they are used has radically changed though.

I completely agree with Bogalubov here! It is 100% HOW you use them.

Am lucky, there's about 4 cron air players in my area so it makes my list better as it doesn't have to deal with them all the time. Thanks goodness I don't have To face flamer spam any more because that was a difficult one to play against.

I am still having success with mech Ig but more importantly am enjoying it. Also I am not crushing my opponents completely.

bogalubov wrote:

That's why I don't view going mech as a benefit in terms of mobility. It's a benefit in terms of survival. I get to ignore all anti-infantry weapons most of the game and get to overwatch assault units twice from my chimeras.

Overwatch usually doesn't accomplish terribly much hitting only on 6's, you'll average (assuming 2 shots and 5 dudes) 1.66 hits only, especially if you aren't loaded up with template weapons. Likewise, the tanks themselves are ludicrously vulnerable to assault, it's easier for a tac squad to kill a moving Leman Russ tank or flat out speeding holo-field Falcon on a charge than it is to kill 2 marines statistically.

On top of that, many of the anti-infantry weapons actually make decent AT now thanks to hull points and never needing to bother with a damage table.

So I don't think mech is dead. How they are used has radically changed though.

In every conceivable sense mech has become drastically less useable and survivable under 6E. Transports have less utility and cannot hold or even contest objectives with embarked scoring units, and tanks in general are easier to kill than they've ever been before typically.

Yes, Pyre. The thing about facing some of these "Power" lists is that there are ALWAYS a downside. Lets take CronAir.... You have ALL of your fire power except the 2 VenVets(i always take 2) on the table while they only have a lil bit. Turn one, you, depending on how smart they are, or how little arty you have on the table(i take 2 mantis) should be able to knock their socks off. Then they piece meal you their fliers. As long as you space your people out(which is not hard considering you have ALL of turn one to do so) the big DeathRay weapon should not be AS bad.

bogalubov wrote:

That's why I don't view going mech as a benefit in terms of mobility. It's a benefit in terms of survival. I get to ignore all anti-infantry weapons most of the game and get to overwatch assault units twice from my chimeras.

So I don't think mech is dead. How they are used has radically changed though.

It's safe to say that bolters are fairly common anti-infantry weapons, and whats a chimera's side armor?

I use mostly mech guard for one reason: It takes less time to move. Call me lazy but I'm not a fan of taking 4+ hours for a single game (had enough of that running green tide orks in 5th).

My mech vets are typically a counter attack unit because most people in my meta are rushing towards me. While waiting for the enemy to come close, my 65 point chimera throws a multilaser, heavy bolter, and a heavy stubber 36" downrange. Not too crazy on its own, but when three or more shoot at the same target, it usually gets something accomplished.

Vaktathi wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I think in the last three months I've seen exactly one vehicle die to an explodes result where it still had HP's remaining

That's bizzare. Of all the games of 6th I've played so far, I think I've only ever killed a vehicle by stripping it of hull points a handful of times. Likewise, almost all of my own vehicles lost have been in explosions.

Statistically, unless being hit by meltaguns, dying to hull points *should* be the norm, by far.

Looking at say, Autocannons vs AV12, you need 72 BS3 autocannon shots to average a single Explodes result, but only a quarter as many (18) to average having killed it through Hull Point loss. Lascannons vs Av12 are more even but still weigh more towards the HP's quite noticeably, requiring an average of 12 lascannon shots to kill through an Explodes result but only an average of 9 to kill through HP's.

Your math is okay but your interpretation is completely off. For the lascannon you have a 50% chance on average to have exploded the chimera at 6 shots. That means that you are more likely to see explodes results 75% chance before HP strip results. That is significantly more likely to see an explodes.


For the overall thread I agree that chimera rush no longer works like it did. I find they work much better in 2 ways now.

1) AV14 rush: This is a wall of AV14 hulls with a chimera behind it. This works best with a couple vendettas to do anti air and you need to balance your weapons properly. The secret is that the AV14 is the only visible armour value for the first 1-2 turns.

2) Artillery: Yeah, this is just loading up on artillery and using the chimeras as a mobile wall to screen them.

The truth of it is that the long range damage of a vet squad has never been that good. They need to close and they used to do that with a chimera. Yes the chimera is less survivable so closing to the 12" ideal damage range of a vet squad is tough. However if you use something more threatening to distract (aka artillery) or an AV14 wall to screen then you can still close.

BTW overwatch is much better than credit is given for it. If you can even do a single kill in the overwatch then you have a chance of stopping the charge. This is not something I would count on but it does change games. Chimeras in assault are our know no fear so we can shoot again next turn.

I'm playing in a 1500 point tournament this weekend. I have enough IG, and SW, to make just about every conceivable option except full Air Cav. The meta in my area seems to have moved more towards foot lists, so just to throw in a monkey wrench I am going to run this:

CCS
4x Flamer
Chimera

Vet Squad
Melta Bomb
3x Flamer

Vet Squad
3x Melta

Vet Squad
3x Flamer
Chimera

Hellhound
Vendetta
Vendetta

LR Exterminator with HB/Sponsons

Wolf Guard Battle Leader with Runic Armor, PF

8 Grey Hunters
Melta Gun
Wolf Standard
Rhino

9 Grey Hunters
Melta Gun
Wolf Standard
Rhino

Basically I've replaced 2 Vet Squads in Chimeras with Grey Hunters in Rhinos. The first two vet squads ride in the Vendettas. My front wall is not all AV 12 but the sidewalls have no AV 10. The CCS and the Hellhound toast anyone who gets too close. As you can see, I like flamers. It's about maximizing the number of wounds you can put on a unit.

I think I can make this work. I've considered dropping the chimera vets for another tank, but I want the late game scoring options.

For Beerbeard above^^

Would it not be better to just take a barebones Rune Priest? i think it is around the same points, if not less, and you get the Div powers as well as the insanely amazing rune weapon anti psyker?

But back on topic, i like the direction Ansacs is going at!

Hmmm, what Ansacs said makes a lot of sense. I could drop all my SW and run a pure Guard list adding another vet squad in a chimera and two LRBT's. Now I would have 3 AV14 fronts...

Interesting, I will run the numbers on shots, etc.

My MecVet list looks something like this

Primaris Pysker

x5 Vets, 3 plasma, demo doctrine in Chim

x2 Vendettas

x2 LRBT

x2 Manticores


Now, my arty gets a good first turn barrage and the LRBT's are there for people to think about shooting at. Vendettas do their thing and the Vets ride around and cover where needed. Demo doctrine(for me at least) is a must. It gives me a TON of deepstrike defence.

Maybe what you could do is take a plasma loaded blob and use a wall of AV14 to do the talking. Use ABG if you are so inclined. Keep the blob behind a ADL and use the blob to cap any objectives once the nasties are dead.

Actually the funny part is I have been running thunderer siege tanks and centaurs (which no one has ever said are good). I have found them to be pretty fantastic so far but I have not run them against necrons at all yet. centaurs are Tiny (notice capital T) so you can hide them completely behind the tank where the enemy has to get behind the tank to fire at them.

I also have noticed that if you do the AV14 wall method you need good anti flier support as the vector strike flying critters will kill you. Also a dynamic element such as SW drop pods or storm troopers to deal with artillery go far.

For your list beerbeard I am not a fan of Rhino's I have never liked the model and have always found them more fragile than I like. I love the SW drop pod, grey hunters, and JoWW priest combo. I think they are probably the only unit/combination that can be added to any list and make it better.

Its pretty awesome in an artillery list. Gives you great mobility 1st turn while the prescience priest makes your artillery re-roll misses.

Some great discussion going on so far. I have been eying my pride of Chimeras (pride, pack, herd?) and trying to decide what to do with them in this ed.

Anyone tried running armored platoons? I was thinking bare squads with melta-guns backed up by flamer toting PCSs and a could of plasma vet squads.

Each squad is only 115 points, so a full platoon in Chimeras is only 575 for infantry and 100 points for a PCS with 4 flamers in a Chimera. That much melta, fire, las, scoring and armor 12 can get a lot done before going down. Is it possible that this style of saturation is now key?

 ansacs wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I think in the last three months I've seen exactly one vehicle die to an explodes result where it still had HP's remaining

That's bizzare. Of all the games of 6th I've played so far, I think I've only ever killed a vehicle by stripping it of hull points a handful of times. Likewise, almost all of my own vehicles lost have been in explosions.

Statistically, unless being hit by meltaguns, dying to hull points *should* be the norm, by far.

Looking at say, Autocannons vs AV12, you need 72 BS3 autocannon shots to average a single Explodes result, but only a quarter as many (18) to average having killed it through Hull Point loss. Lascannons vs Av12 are more even but still weigh more towards the HP's quite noticeably, requiring an average of 12 lascannon shots to kill through an Explodes result but only an average of 9 to kill through HP's.

Your math is okay but your interpretation is completely off. For the lascannon you have a 50% chance on average to have exploded the chimera at 6 shots. That means that you are more likely to see explodes results 75% chance before HP strip results. That is significantly more likely to see an explodes.

And you're not taking the same calculation and applying it to the HP's...

It's much more likely you'll glance/pen 3 times with the lascannon (33% chance on any one shot) before you pen and roll a 5 or 6 on the damage chart with the lascannon (8.33%chance on any one shot), resulting in a 50% chance for 4.5 shots from the lascannon to kill through HP's.

The explodes result is a 1/3 result on a 50/50 chance to pen assuming a successful hit. HP's need achieve a 2/3 chance result 3 times assuming a successful hit to wreck the vehicle. While it is possible for the explodes result to occur before the HP's, the HP's kill result will occur generally earlier than the Explodes kill result will, with the Explodes result requiring an average of 33% more shots to attain the same odds.

It's not until you factor in AP1 that it changes to favor the damage table over HP's.


Thus, HP's should be the primary kill method the majority of the time, and Chimeras, along with pretty much anything that isn't a very heavy tank, are hideously vulnerable to them.

 More Dakka wrote:

Anyone tried running armored platoons? I was thinking bare squads with melta-guns backed up by flamer toting PCSs and a could of plasma vet squads.

Well if you gave them a heavy weapon with the intention of always moving so you're snap firing it, it wouldn't be any worse than if Vets did it.

I'm not seeing too many problems with the IG at my FLGS. Cheap AV 12 is still pretty hard to get rid of in 6th, as lists do have a finite number of anti-tank shots.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Thus, HP's should be the primary kill method the majority of the time, and Chimeras, along with pretty much anything that isn't a very heavy tank, are hideously vulnerable to them.

Sorry mate, this is not true. It is your math that is off.

What is are the probabilities for killing a vehicle by stripping 3HP vs exploding it? Assume three heavy weapons (ac and las).

AC vs......p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!)..........LAS vs....p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!)
AV10.......0.240412153................0.22536063..........AV10.......0.047089335................0.36147548
AV11.......0.128044317................0.15551243..........AV11.......0.028527949................0.297668038
AV12.......0.049672929................0.080492843.......AV12.......0.015625.......................0.22974537
AV13.......0.009545262................0.............................AV13.......0.00735168................ 0.157578875
AV14.......0......................................0.............................AV14.......0.002679184................0.081039952

As you can see, apart from an AC firing at a 3HP av10 facing vehicle, the probability of exploding is greater in every single case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just note that these are the numbers for three heavy weapons, and the results may change as more heavy weapons add their weight of fire, but I imagine (but not certain) that the conclusion will be the same. Also, another disclaimer: I'm not sure if this is even the right methodology to use to answer the question.

Another exercise for someone who wants to try it out is to ask the question, which outcome is more likely to happen first (ie 3HP stripped or explodes! result)? I haven't ran the numbers myself, but my initial thoughts are that the exploding result will still win out.

Where are you getting those numbers just out of curiosity?

They don't make any sense, 3 lascannons against AV10, that auto-inflict HP damage on a hit, are 8-fold less likely to kill it through HP damage than through an explodes result that only occurs on 1 in 3.6 hits (1/3 possibility on a 5/6 chance to pen)? Even taking into account the chance to kill it on the first or second hits, that's nowhere near accounts for that difference.

I'm failing to see how a result that requires occurs once ever 7.2 shots (bs3 lascannon vs AV10, 1/3 chance to explode on 5/6 chance to pen on 1/2 chance to hit=7.2 shot average) is 8x more likely to be responsible for destruction as one that occurs once every 6 shots (requires 3x auto-remove HP with S9 vs AV10 on each hit with a 50% chance to occur=6 shot average)

 Vaktathi wrote:
Where are you getting those numbers just out of curiosity?

Yeah, those numbers are completely wrong. Just to point out the obvious one, the chance of killing an AV 10 target by HP removal with three lascannon shots is 0.125, the same as the probability of hitting with all three shots.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Where are you getting those numbers just out of curiosity?

Find the probability of a single shot from ac/las causing HP loss or explodes result. Plug those results into a binomial model to find the probabilities for 6/3 shots, for ac/las respectively, to cause at least 3HP stripped, or at least one explodes! result.

 Vaktathi wrote:

They don't make any sense, 3 lascannons against AV10, that auto-inflict HP damage on a hit, are 8-fold less likely to kill it through HP damage than through an explodes result that only occurs on 1 in 3.6 hits (1/3 possibility on a 5/6 chance to pen)? Even taking into account the chance to kill it on the first or second hits, that's nowhere near accounts for that difference.

Most of the time when you hit with a las vs av10 you are penning. You've got three shots, so find the probability that at least one will hit and yield an explodes! result.

 Vaktathi wrote:

I'm failing to see how a result that requires occurs once ever 7.2 shots (bs3 lascannon vs AV10, 1/3 chance to explode on 5/6 chance to pen on 1/2 chance to hit=7.2 shot average) is 8x more likely to be responsible for destruction as one that occurs once every 6 shots (requires 3x auto-remove HP with S9 vs AV10 on each hit with a 50% chance to occur=6 shot average)

Try it out yourself mate. Its because when you use averages, it tends to overestimate how many shots you need to be reasonably certain of achieving a certain result.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Where are you getting those numbers just out of curiosity?

Yeah, those numbers are completely wrong. Just to point out the obvious one, the chance of killing an AV 10 target by HP removal with three lascannon shots is 0.125, the same as the probability of hitting with all three shots.

If you want to know the the probability of three las stripping three HP, you need to use a binominal model. This is not the same as the probability of hitting with three shots, because you need to consider when a pen causes hp strip as well.

 Barksdale wrote:
What you are calculating here is the expected number of hp stripped. If you want to know the the probability of three las stripping three HP, you need to use a binominal model.

No, you're just doing the math wrong and over-thinking it. A lascannon that hits AV 10 automatically strips a hull point, so the probability of stripping three hull points with three shots is the probability that you hit with all three shots. And the probability of hitting with all three shots (at BS 3) is 0.5^3 = 0.125.


(Actually it would be slightly higher since you could get a penetrating hit and an immobilized result, then another immobilized result and strip the third HP even if one shot misses. But that's rare enough to ignore the possibility.)

Right, but what about the case when a pen causes a hp lost? Most of the time you are penning with a las vs av 10, not just glancing. That leaves much more oppurtunity for an explodes! result.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And remember, you need to get three hp strips, but only one explodes result. That is where the large difference in probabilities comes in.

 Barksdale wrote:
Right, but what about the case when a pen causes a hp lost? Most of the time you are penning with a las vs av 10, not just glancing. That leaves much more oppurtunity for an explodes! result.

And remember, you need to get three hp strips, but only one explodes result. That is where the large difference in probabilities comes in.

You're missing the point. You said that the probability of three lascannon shots killing AV 10 by stripping 3 HP is 0.047. This is completely wrong because the probability must be at least 0.125, since there's a 0.125 chance of hitting with all three shots and any time you hit with all three shots the target will be wrecked.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Where are you getting those numbers just out of curiosity?

They don't make any sense, 3 lascannons against AV10, that auto-inflict HP damage on a hit, are 8-fold less likely to kill it through HP damage than through an explodes result that only occurs on 1 in 3.6 hits (1/3 possibility on a 5/6 chance to pen)? Even taking into account the chance to kill it on the first or second hits, that's nowhere near accounts for that difference.

I'm failing to see how a result that requires occurs once ever 7.2 shots (bs3 lascannon vs AV10, 1/3 chance to explode on 5/6 chance to pen on 1/2 chance to hit=7.2 shot average) is 8x more likely to be responsible for destruction as one that occurs once every 6 shots (requires 3x auto-remove HP with S9 vs AV10 on each hit with a 50% chance to occur=6 shot average)

You are right I did not apply the logic to both sides but it is not weighed evenly.



Okay these are the odds to get a single result from a single shot. So if we get three HP results then a chimera is dead(leaving a road block but oh well) while two results leave a living chimera from HP but perhaps not explodes. So we see that there is a 60% chance to explode AV 10 with a lascannon with 2 hit shots while a 0 percent chance to strip 3 hp with 2 shots. Vice versa 3 HP will kill a chimera where you have 0% chance to ever explode it.



These are the odds to explode the vehicle by the time you are statistically likely to get 3 HP of damage.

You can see that the odds to Explode with a lascannon before HP striping is excellent with the AC damage being nearly elusively HP stripping. So can I ask you a question? Do you use autocannons or lascannons? If you use autocannons then In know why you see the results you do.

This says nothing of the fact that every pen-non-explodes result stops the tank from being fully effective. So explodes is important.


I agree that HP stripping + non scoring vehicles made AC a deadly weapon capable of stopping a chimera rush flat...except if the AC targets AV14 or gets blown away before it can fire. So yeah mech vet charge of the chimera (its a herd cause they get eaten alive by predators if they get bogged down and they get sacrificed for their rider's god) is dead. Mechvet needs a really good distraction and screening to close, then it can do its thing. Though sadly vendetta vet spam is better in a lot of ways, the only way it is not as good is turn 1 strike if your enemy gets close and artillery screening.

Does anyone know how to format a table on this board?

There's also the matter that you're looking at the odds of stripping 3 hull points with just three shots -- requiring that all three of the shots glance or penetrate the target. When you choose such a small number (i.e. BARELY large enough for there to be even a chance of wrecking the vehicle), of course the number of vehicles killed by hull points will be small. What we're interested in is how those ratios act as the number of shots approaches key values -- like the amount of anti-tank fire you can expect to field in a single turn, or over the course of the game.

Surely you can see that.

Corollax wrote:
There's also the matter that you're looking at the odds of stripping 3 hull points with just three shots -- requiring that all three of the shots glance or penetrate the target. When you choose such a small number (i.e. BARELY large enough for there to be even a chance of wrecking the vehicle), of course the number of vehicles killed by hull points will be small. What we're interested in is how those ratios act as the number of shots approaches key values -- like the amount of anti-tank fire you can expect to field in a single turn, or over the course of the game.

This. For example, the supposed chance of killing AV 12 with the three LCs is about 25%, so your most likely scenario is having to fire six LCs (or three of them twice on consecutive turns) or ten LCs and a melta gun or whatever. So in reality you're dealing with larger numbers of shots, and the probability of death by HP loss goes up significantly.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Barksdale wrote:
Right, but what about the case when a pen causes a hp lost? Most of the time you are penning with a las vs av 10, not just glancing. That leaves much more oppurtunity for an explodes! result.

And remember, you need to get three hp strips, but only one explodes result. That is where the large difference in probabilities comes in.

You're missing the point. You said that the probability of three lascannon shots killing AV 10 by stripping 3 HP is 0.047. This is completely wrong because the probability must be at least 0.125, since there's a 0.125 chance of hitting with all three shots and any time you hit with all three shots the target will be wrecked.

I think that you are not clear about what these numbers are telling you. There is no reason why the probability of killing an av10 facing vehicle by stripping HP should be at least 0.125. That is only the probability of all three of those shots hitting. Alot of those hits are going to be pens, some of which strip a hull point, but at least one of which is very likely to be an explodes! result.

Consider if only two of those las hit. Then there is no way to strip 3 HP. The only other way to destroy the vehicle is by getting at least one explodes! result, or by getting two immobilized results.


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 Peregrine wrote:

Corollax wrote:
There's also the matter that you're looking at the odds of stripping 3 hull points with just three shots -- requiring that all three of the shots glance or penetrate the target. When you choose such a small number (i.e. BARELY large enough for there to be even a chance of wrecking the vehicle), of course the number of vehicles killed by hull points will be small. What we're interested in is how those ratios act as the number of shots approaches key values -- like the amount of anti-tank fire you can expect to field in a single turn, or over the course of the game.

This. For example, the supposed chance of killing AV 12 with the three LCs is about 25%, so your most likely scenario is having to fire six LCs (or three of them twice on consecutive turns) or ten LCs and a melta gun or whatever. So in reality you're dealing with larger numbers of shots, and the probability of death by HP loss goes up significantly.

This is a very real possibility, but I'm not entirely convinced that it is true. I'd have to run the numbers.

I would encourage you to do so. The wrecked/exploded ratio most certainly varies as a function of the number of shots fired. As the number of shots fired increases, that ratio will approach an asymptote. I haven't run the numbers, but I'd expect the function to approach that asymptote rather quickly. Right now, you're pulling off only the very edge of the binomial curve (where all three shots glance/penetrate). Naturally, your numbers are lower. =P

The specific value of that asymptote will depend upon the expected ratio of penetrating and glancing hits and the net increase on the damage table. Obviously, these factors will vary according to the difference between Armor Value and Weapon Strength and the presence of such special rules like rending and ordnance.

At the very least, you should be able to conclude that the cause of vehicle destruction is a function of not just weapon type but also weapon quantity. If you missed something that basic, you should probably wait before drawing any conclusions from the data you're calculating. Even if it's calculated correctly, it might be describing a scenario that doesn't generalize to the game as a whole (such as an army that only brought 3 lascannons for anti-tank and fired them precisely once). Get a stronger feel for the data first. Run some simulations. Python is excellent for this, but just about any programming language will work.

EDIT-1: If you think about it, the reason the wrecked/exploded ratio is not constant is very simple -- the discrepancy between the value for the given quantity of firepower and the asymptotic value reflects the average percent of damaged vehicles on the field. If you've fired 30 shots and destroyed 8 vehicles, neglecting the missing hull point on the 11th isn't very significant. If you've fired 3 shots and managed to rip 2/3 hull points off the one vehicle you shot at, it wouldn't be very accurate to say you haven't accomplished anything.

EDIT-2: As an unrelated note, you appear to be discounting results where a penetrating hit achieved an explode result on a vehicle with one hull point left. Whether or not the vehicle exploded, it was still killed by HP loss. You need to count such events under both categories. (That explode result didn't let you allocate any of your excess firepower elsewhere, after all!)

Whats bugging the heck out of me is that the more I see IG in the competitive scene, the more and more we're getting turned into a "henchmen" army. We're incredible allies for literally almost everybody, but when we're on our own we really struggle at taking the fight to the other guy. We lack a really tough scoring unit that can be used aggressively. Platoons can be incredibly hard to remove, but only when holding a spot. The moment they move up, they die horrible horrible deaths.

I've also noticed that more and more lately, I've just been going for "crush the opponent so he can't kill my scoring units" instead of just playing the objectives like a normal player would. Technically, the "kill everything so we can just hold the only objective at the end of the game" is still playing the objective, but it feels like a really weird way to go about it. At least we have the firepower to pull it off, but with the Tau on the way I'm worried our reign as the kings of dakka might be in trouble...

Perhaps that's the future of 6th ed IG? We have to literally pound the opponent into submission and then just waltz onto any objective that looks fairly safe. Sounds like a kind of boring way to play, but who knows, it's kind of how IG players played before anyways

BTW: Haven't read must past the OP yet, so this is mainly me responding to the first post, forgive me if all this has already been mentioned.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Whats bugging the heck out of me is that the more I see IG in the competitive scene, the more and more we're getting turned into a "henchmen" army. We're incredible allies for literally almost everybody, but when we're on our own we really struggle at taking the fight to the other guy. We lack a really tough scoring unit that can be used aggressively. Platoons can be incredibly hard to remove, but only when holding a spot. The moment they move up, they die horrible horrible deaths.

I've also noticed that more and more lately, I've just been going for "crush the opponent so he can't kill my scoring units" instead of just playing the objectives like a normal player would. Technically, the "kill everything so we can just hold the only objective at the end of the game" is still playing the objective, but it feels like a really weird way to go about it. At least we have the firepower to pull it off, but with the Tau on the way I'm worried our reign as the kings of dakka might be in trouble...

Perhaps that's the future of 6th ed IG? We have to literally pound the opponent into submission and then just waltz onto any objective that looks fairly safe. Sounds like a kind of boring way to play, but who knows, it's kind of how IG players played before anyways

BTW: Haven't read must past the OP yet, so this is mainly me responding to the first post, forgive me if all this has already been mentioned.

IG is a hammer, man. With such ineffective objective-holders, IG has become all about going for the tabling.

At least for me.

MrMoustaffa wrote: We have to literally pound the opponent into submission and then just waltz onto any objective that looks fairly safe. Sounds like a kind of boring way to play, but who knows, it's kind of how IG players played before anyways

TheCaptain wrote:

IG is a hammer, man. With such ineffective objective-holders, IG has become all about going for the tabling.

At least for me.

Am I the only one who has a problem with this? It's really not interesting to play in my opinion. Comes down to dice rolling far too much.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Am I the only one who has a problem with this? It's really not interesting to play in my opinion. Comes down to dice rolling far too much.

Sure, but the question here is the best way to win, not the most fun army type/strategy for each individual person.

And coming down to rolling dice is a good thing for winning. It takes player mistakes out of the picture and lets your superior list optimization win the game for you. You just have to make sure that average dice give you a win.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
Am I the only one who has a problem with this? It's really not interesting to play in my opinion. Comes down to dice rolling far too much.

Sure, but the question here is the best way to win, not the most fun army type/strategy for each individual person.

Indeed, but is trying to wipe your opponent off the table the safest way to win? If you don't roll average at key points that strategy is out the window, and with such low numbers (because even 60 dice will have huge variants from their statistical average) that chance isn't non-significant.

Feels like gambling rather than planning.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Indeed, but is trying to wipe your opponent off the table the safest way to win? If you don't roll average at key points that strategy is out the window, and with such low numbers (because even 60 dice will have huge variants from their statistical average) that chance isn't non-significant.

Sure, the limited margin for error when you're depending on tabling (or at least killing all the scoring units) is a concern, but that's an entirely different objection from "it's not interesting to play" which is about personal enjoyment rather than how effective the strategy is.

So if foot lists are dead, and mech lists are dead, what the hell are you guys fielding?

tybg wrote:
So if foot lists are dead, and mech lists are dead, what the hell are you guys fielding?

6+ flyers.

Corollax wrote:
I would encourage you to do so. The wrecked/exploded ratio most certainly varies as a function of the number of shots fired. As the number of shots fired increases, that ratio will approach an asymptote. I haven't run the numbers, but I'd expect the function to approach that asymptote rather quickly. Right now, you're pulling off only the very edge of the binomial curve (where all three shots glance/penetrate). Naturally, your numbers are lower. =P

First off, the model uses the standard to hit and to glance/penetrate probabilities. It does not assume all three shots glance/penetrate.

Right, so vehicle destruction is obviously a function of weight of fire. For those interested (if anyone) the ac will switch to HP stripping being more likely (compared with explodes! result) at 4 ac for av 11 (~25% vs ~20%), 5 ac for av 12 (~18% vs ~13%). For the las, a HP becomes more likely at 12 las for av11 (~76% vs ~75%), 14 las for av 12 (~72% vs ~ 70%), 15 las for av 13 (~58% vs ~57%and av14 (~35% vs ~34%). Personally, I take the explodes! route any day of the week.

tybg wrote:
So if foot lists are dead, and mech lists are dead, what the hell are you guys fielding?

Dead doesn't mean unusable, it really means either "this is not as good as it used to be" or "it's not competitive any more."

Mech is still strong, and so is foot (when backed up with allies and FW). They're just not what they were in 5th. I've not tried a full on air-cav yet, money is a huge limiting factor for that...

 Vaktathi wrote:
In every conceivable sense mech has become drastically less useable and survivable under 6E. Transports have less utility and cannot hold or even contest objectives with embarked scoring units, and tanks in general are easier to kill than they've ever been before typically.

However, changes in the environment mean that transports can still be very useful. For instance, 6e's increased prevalence of Barrage weapons, Torrent weapons, and Thunderfire Cannons means that transports are still very important for protecting your guys. Unfortunately IG gets the short end of the stick in that side armor 10 on Chimeras makes the Chimeras themselves very vulnerable to many of the weapons used in this context.

 Griddlelol wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote: We have to literally pound the opponent into submission and then just waltz onto any objective that looks fairly safe. Sounds like a kind of boring way to play, but who knows, it's kind of how IG players played before anyways

TheCaptain wrote:

IG is a hammer, man. With such ineffective objective-holders, IG has become all about going for the tabling.

At least for me.

Am I the only one who has a problem with this? It's really not interesting to play in my opinion. Comes down to dice rolling far too much.

The decrease in cover from 4+ to 5+ has made very difficult to get across the table for anyone. In 6th edition more of my games are determined within the first few turns than they ever were in 5th. For most armies the most important dice roll is going to be who gets to place more objectives. Then the other guy has to come to you and get horribly gunned down.

I think that's why you see most tournaments vary the book missions to some degree so that both people are forced to go forward. Even then, most games come down to not who brought more guns to blast the other army to bits to prevent them from holding objectives.

I agree, most of the time, the game's result turn around who got the first turn and took care of the opponent's heavy hitting untis, leaving the weak troops being shot up/assaulted/retreating

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I agree, most of the time, the game's result turn around who got the first turn and took care of the opponent's heavy hitting untis, leaving the weak troops being shot up/assaulted/retreating

Yeah...no. Getting the second turn gives you the chance to capture/contest objectives. First turn damage can be quite easily mitigated by deployment. Unless of course the ridiculous Seize the Initiative screws up an aggressive deployment.

 Griddlelol wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote: We have to literally pound the opponent into submission and then just waltz onto any objective that looks fairly safe. Sounds like a kind of boring way to play, but who knows, it's kind of how IG players played before anyways

TheCaptain wrote:

IG is a hammer, man. With such ineffective objective-holders, IG has become all about going for the tabling.

At least for me.

Am I the only one who has a problem with this? It's really not interesting to play in my opinion. Comes down to dice rolling far too much.

Yeah it's bugging me too. If this strategy ends up being as boring as it sounds I may shelve my IG for a while, or just use them for silly games.

I'm not exactly gracing Nova, Feast of Blades, and Adepticon with my presence every year so competitiveness to me only matters as long as the list is interesting to play.

That said, shoot the gak out of everything does feel like a very Imperial Guardsy thing to do...

We rain fire down in the emperor's name, as it were.

Has anyone tried allying in dark angels with a libby/land raider to run alongside the chimeras/leman russ' to give them 4++ saves? I have been meaning to do this but I never bought a leman russ for my dark angels. (or you could run those flimsy coffins the space marines get but seems like it would die, fast)

 ansacs wrote:
We rain fire down in the emperor's name, as it were.

Has anyone tried allying in dark angels with a libby/land raider to run alongside the chimeras/leman russ' to give them 4++ saves? I have been meaning to do this but I never bought a leman russ for my dark angels. (or you could run those flimsy coffins the space marines get but seems like it would die, fast)

I'd love to try that. I every time I head to a store considering a different build with allies I end up coming home with another guard unit -_-


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 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Yeah it's bugging me too. If this strategy ends up being as boring as it sounds I may shelve my IG for a while, or just use them for silly games.

Now this sounds like whining, so there's no point in hiding it:

But I don't wanna!

After seeing the Tau rumors, I'm going to play a mech list this weekend because I think it will be the last time in an RTT until our new book arrives, whenever that is.

I'm going to try to blow everything off the table strategy, using vets in Vendettas to take the objectives. Might not work, but it will be fun to try. I'll try and go second most games, and not take an astropath to get the planes in a bit later if possible.

CCS in chimera, lascannon
4 vet squads, two with flamers in Vendettas, 2 with Melta in chimera
Exterminator with HB/sponsons
2 LRBT in a squadron
Manticore

4 Storm Eagles
2 battlecannons
7 lascannons
2 autocannons
6 melta guns
3 heavy flamers
6 heavy bolters
3 multi-lasers
6 flamers
assorted lasguns and laspistols

Weight of Metal for the Emperor!

 Griddlelol wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Yeah it's bugging me too. If this strategy ends up being as boring as it sounds I may shelve my IG for a while, or just use them for silly games.

Now this sounds like whining, so there's no point in hiding it:

But I don't wanna!

If I wanna whine I'm gonna whine. You can't stop me!

But in all seriousness I haven't even given the style yet so who knows, it may be more fun than I realize. But you have to admit, the idea of just lining up across from your opponent and doing nothing but shoot doesn't exactly sound like the most exciting game ever. I've got some ideas to keep the game interesting, but I'm not exactly sure how well they'll work out...

Put the Vets and Stromtroops in vendettas
Put a CCS in the backfeild give it a MoO
and small platoon in your enfeild to handle any deep strikes
some basic Leman Battle Tanks back with them
mabey a squadron of hydras to keep enemy air at bay and make them think

take marbo..he hurts a lot

IG Combined Arms is the hardest army for Orks to beat
(4 pie plates per turn anywhere on the board hurts a LOT)
vets dropping in on objectives with dedicated artillery support and dedicated air support makes it hard to stop

MrMoustaffa wrote:I've also noticed that more and more lately, I've just been going for "crush the opponent so he can't kill my scoring units" instead of just playing the objectives like a normal player would. Technically, the "kill everything so we can just hold the only objective at the end of the game" is still playing the objective, but it feels like a really weird way to go about it.

I've certainly found this to be true so far, and it's kind of annoying. Yes, I know I play GUARD, but that shouldn't mean that a gunline is the ONLY thing I can do.

So, something has struck me recently. Perhaps what we're all missing is that FA and other up-mobile choices (in the case of guard, stormtroopers, for example), are actually worth taking for their speed. In 5th ed, it didn't matter, but perhaps what we're all missing is that time has become a more actual variable than it was in previous editions.

Perhaps 6th ed has made them viable by making everything else painfully unable to cross open ground.

 Ailaros wrote:

I've certainly found this to be true so far, and it's kind of annoying. Yes, I know I play GUARD, but that shouldn't mean that a gunline is the ONLY thing I can do.

Gunlines are one army type that was barely hurt in 6th. If anything, more emphasis was placed on ranged firepower than ever. However, it feels kinda stupid to simply castle and fire every turn without involving any strategy. Personally, I'll prefer a mech or blob list and a possible loss every time, but sadly, it does look like that is the most competitive build for anyone who can't afford to (or simply doesn't want to) field a Vendetta spam list.

 Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:I've also noticed that more and more lately, I've just been going for "crush the opponent so he can't kill my scoring units" instead of just playing the objectives like a normal player would. Technically, the "kill everything so we can just hold the only objective at the end of the game" is still playing the objective, but it feels like a really weird way to go about it.

I've certainly found this to be true so far, and it's kind of annoying. Yes, I know I play GUARD, but that shouldn't mean that a gunline is the ONLY thing I can do.

So, something has struck me recently. Perhaps what we're all missing is that FA and other up-mobile choices (in the case of guard, stormtroopers, for example), are actually worth taking for their speed. In 5th ed, it didn't matter, but perhaps what we're all missing is that time has become a more actual variable than it was in previous editions.

Perhaps 6th ed has made them viable by making everything else painfully unable to cross open ground.

Vendettas and cheap platoon infantry squads/pcs

The cheaper the better since they are probably going to spend the first 3 or 4 turns hiding in their bird.

The PCS in a vendetta is actually 5 points cheaper than 5 warriors in a scythe, and the 10 man infantry squad is only 15 points more. 10 bodies that are going to go to ground at the first sign of trouble is actually more durable than 5 bodies with reanimation protocols.

Yes, but the vendetta is not a dedicated transport so you need to take squadrons. Squadrons aren't as bad as they were before, but they're still only one target instead of multiple ones. Being able to fire onto only one target is not as great either. The disembarkation is much easier for Necrons than grav-chute insertion, which is basically suicide on a terrain filled table. Plus, the occupants of the scythe are not dying a horrible burning death when their transport comes crashing down.

The other issue is that guard don't have the great units that Necrons do that can be trotted out for the first few turns while you wait for your flyers to come in.

Let's not directly compare IG and the Necrons. One of the cheesiest current codices, they're undoubtedly "stronger" than us-MSS, Wraiths w/WC, D-Lords, Royal Courts, MEQ saves throughout most of the codex, Lychguard, Zahndrekh... You can't argue with those. However, pretty much everyone takes IG allies nowadays just to get Vendettas, and I doubt that many people are wrong-the Vendetta is currently one of the best units in 40k in performance/cost figures.

The Vendetta enjoys a huge anti-vehicle firepower advantage vs. the Night Scythe, and the occupants are more often than not a lot cheaper and more expendable than the occupants of a typical Scythe, so again, I don't think direct comparison has any merit in this case.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
But in all seriousness I haven't even given the style yet so who knows, it may be more fun than I realize. But you have to admit, the idea of just lining up across from your opponent and doing nothing but shoot doesn't exactly sound like the most exciting game ever. I've got some ideas to keep the game interesting, but I'm not exactly sure how well they'll work out...

Bringing a maximum-firepower list and tabling your opponent doesn't necessarily mean bringing a gunline. A Hellhound squadron that rushes up the table and wipes a scoring unit off an objective is still contributing to the "kill everything that scores" plan, Vendettas/Vultures/Avengers are great maximum-firepower choices that (obviously) do a lot of moving, etc. You're going to have some kind of static element (Sabre platoon and heavy artillery IMO) to hold one objective and make use of our extremely efficient static guns, but that still leaves plenty of room for mobile units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
So, something has struck me recently. Perhaps what we're all missing is that FA and other up-mobile choices (in the case of guard, stormtroopers, for example), are actually worth taking for their speed. In 5th ed, it didn't matter, but perhaps what we're all missing is that time has become a more actual variable than it was in previous editions.

So pretty much what you're saying is you finally admit that Vendettas are mandatory in 6th? Does this mean we'll start to see a few of them in your battle reports, or will you just post another thread about how to pick the right sponsons to make your Leman Russes a fast threat?

bogalubov wrote:

Yes, but the vendetta is not a dedicated transport so you need to take squadrons. Squadrons aren't as bad as they were before, but they're still only one target instead of multiple ones. Being able to fire onto only one target is not as great either. The disembarkation is much easier for Necrons than grav-chute insertion, which is basically suicide on a terrain filled table. Plus, the occupants of the scythe are not dying a horrible burning death when their transport comes crashing down.

The other issue is that guard don't have the great units that Necrons do that can be trotted out for the first few turns while you wait for your flyers to come in.

3 is plenty at 1750/1850. With a pcs and 2 infantry squads that's 520 points in reserve, and it's important to keep some points on the table. Dedicated transport isn't an issue.

As far as fiery crashes go guardsman without upgrades are cheap and are expendable.

Necrons do have their advantages, but so do vendettas. AV12, hover mode, 3 tl lc, and a cheap price. IG, crons, and csm have the best flyers so we shouldn't be complaining.

OK, I played in an RTT on Saturday. There were two straight up IG players, both full mech. Another IG with an eccentric traitor guard list (Ratlings, Penal Legion x4, Ork aliies,) two DE, two CSM, two C:SM Ultras, and a lonely pure Ork. Some of the players were pretty new to the game, so how you finished had something to do with whom you played, but that said I came in third. One of the Ultras won, and the strange IG list came in second. These were, as an aside, the two most skilled players there. The other mech IG player came in 5th.

I ran a CCS with a lascannon in a chimera, two vet squads with 3x flamers in chimeras, two vet squads with 3x melta in Vendettas, a LR Exterminator with HB sponsons, two vanilla LR in a squadron, and a Manticore. I ended up with a draw against one DE, a close loss to the traitor guard (the dice gods failed me in that one) and tabled the other DE.

What does this tell us about mech IG? Not much. My list was a tough one for DE, their vehicles are too easy to knock down and all my templates and blasts are hard for them to deal with. The traitor guard list was a challenge, with 6 outflanking units. The other mech player took 3 Vendettas and a Thunderbolt, so his results are skewed.

I do think once the Tau book comes out I may have to put at least my Chimeras away for awhile. The Vendettas too, possibly. Even one quad gun is a pretty good answer for a small number of flyers. Multiple units with skyfire and the choice to use it? Unless you run more than 3 flyers, and only a tool would do that, you are in trouble. I'll probably go back to the lists I ran when 6th first came out: blob with Rune Priest, mobile GH squads instead of vets, and lots of AV 14.

Bb