Hay forum, me and some people were discussing wheather or not the fact that Scotland is alot more left-wing than the UK as a whole and that actually confuses people who come to visit.

The reason i am asking this is that it would be good to have feedback from general people in the UK, but i belive people in the US will also have an important role in this discussion by giving us what they think of Britains political attitudes compared to there own, and if the attitudes make a diffrence to how people percieve diffrent countries in the UK.

Where I grew up, in Central Scotland, it was extremely left wing.
You could have pinned a red rosette on a chimp at election time and it would have been elected.
(Some would say that's exactly whet they did...)

Scotland has traditionally, at least in living memory, had a more liberal and egalatarian outlook than England. Its quite easy to see when you compare a map of UK parlamentary constituencies, Scotland has a lot of Labour and Lib dem seats and a bare scattering of Tory seats.

Scotland clearly is more left wing than England.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Scotland clearly is more left wing than England.

i realise this, but to what extent is ir creating a divid or bridge between the countries in the UK.

Yes. I regularly get confused when I visit Scotland.
The sheer power of the left wing community there is enough to overwhelm strong minds and destroy weaker ones.

Your colors confuse me.

In the US, red is associated with Right Wing, or conservative, or Republican.

Blue is associated with left wing, or liberal, or Democrat.


From the above comments, it appears that in the UK, these colors are reversed? That's odd. I get you drive on the left side of the road, too! Craziness!

 purplefood wrote:
Yes. I regularly get confused when I visit Scotland.
The sheer power of the left wing community there is enough to overwhelm strong minds and destroy weaker ones.

/sarcasm much



You know what i mean, it can't be good for the UK when 2 countries (Scotland and Wales) vote for one side and yet there is still a centre-right coalition.


Try to be serious here.

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

Try to be serious here.

If you wanted serious debate you posted in the wrong place.

If Scotland does become independent the English right should be happy, it will virtually guarantee them political dominance for years.

 Palindrome wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

Try to be serious here.

If you wanted serious debate you posted in the wrong place.

Your right.

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Yes. I regularly get confused when I visit Scotland.
The sheer power of the left wing community there is enough to overwhelm strong minds and destroy weaker ones.

/sarcasm much



You know what i mean, it can't be good for the UK when 2 countries (Scotland and Wales) vote for one side and yet there is still a centre-right coalition.


Try to be serious here.

Well the way you phrased it didn't make all that much sense.
It's not a massive issue...

 kronk wrote:
Your colors confuse me.

In the US, red is associated with Right Wing, or conservative, or Republican.

Blue is associated with left wing, or liberal, or Democrat.


From the above comments, it appears that in the UK, these colors are reversed? That's odd. I get you drive on the left side of the road, too! Craziness!

Thats strange because red has always been the couler for socialism in this country, hence why labour is red.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 purplefood wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Yes. I regularly get confused when I visit Scotland.
The sheer power of the left wing community there is enough to overwhelm strong minds and destroy weaker ones.

/sarcasm much



You know what i mean, it can't be good for the UK when 2 countries (Scotland and Wales) vote for one side and yet there is still a centre-right coalition.


Try to be serious here.

Well the way you phrased it didn't make all that much sense.
It's not a massive issue...

You'r right i over reacted.

Yeah.... Completely opposite here!

 kronk wrote:
Your colors confuse me.

In the US, red is associated with Right Wing, or conservative, or Republican.

Blue is associated with left wing, or liberal, or Democrat.


From the above comments, it appears that in the UK, these colors are reversed? That's odd. I get you drive on the left side of the road, too! Craziness!

In the UK red is Labour (centre left), blue is Tory (centre right) or UKIP (right wing) yellow is Lib Dem (slightly to the left of centre left) or SNP (centre left).

Yeah, I mean, communists = Reds. Makes sense.

Don't worry Kronk. In Ireland, the Progressive Democrats were our right wing neoliberals, and our Republicans are completely different to yours

To be on topic: I found the South of England to be pretty right wing (and xenophobic), but Scotland and the North seem to be much more left wing.

 kronk wrote:
Your colors confuse me.

In the US, red is associated with Right Wing, or conservative, or Republican.

Blue is associated with left wing, or liberal, or Democrat.


From the above comments, it appears that in the UK, these colors are reversed? That's odd. I get you drive on the left side of the road, too! Craziness!

Blue is right wing, the Conservative Party, aka the Tories.

Yellow is the central party, the Liberal Democrats.

Red is the left wing, the Labour Party.

Your Democrat party fits around the area of the Liberal Democrats here, perhaps a few degrees to it's right, your Republican party is a good few degrees to the right of the Conservative Party, most especially with it's inclusion of extremer social policies such as anti-abortionists and religiously driven lobbying.

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
Hay forum, me and some people were discussing wheather or not the fact that Scotland is alot more left-wing than the UK as a whole and that actually confuses people who come to visit.

The reason i am asking this is that it would be good to have feedback from general people in the UK, but i belive people in the US will also have an important role in this discussion by giving us what they think of Britains political attitudes compared to there own, and if the attitudes make a diffrence to how people percieve diffrent countries in the UK.

You're all a bunch of socialist pinkoes to me...
I agree in that it probably started when you started driving on the wrong side of the road. Plus all the extra "u"s in your words. Sure signs of commie pinkoism right there.

 Da Boss wrote:
I found the South of England to be pretty right wing (and xenophobic), but Scotland and the North seem to be much more left wing.

Does the South of England have an immigration issue (real or perceived) from the rest of the world that leads to the Xenophobia?

 kronk wrote:

Does the South of England have an immigration issue (real or perceived) from the rest of the world that leads to the Xenophobia?

It thinks that it does. If anywhere the Midlands and the North of England have more claim to have an immigration problem but thats debatable.

 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah, I mean, communists = Reds. Makes sense.

Don't worry Kronk. In Ireland, the Progressive Democrats were our right wing neoliberals, and our Republicans are completely different to yours

To be on topic: I found the South of England to be pretty right wing (and xenophobic), but Scotland and the North seem to be much more left wing.

I will assume you meant the South East and not the South West, including the annexed people of Cornwall.

Yeah, it does. Though the area I lived in was overwhelmingly white, but there you go.

Edit: MGS, yes, I was talking about Essex. Never been to the Southwest (Exeter is there I suppose, I was in Exeter for my brother's passing out), but it sounds lovely.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

I will assume you meant the South East and not the South West, including the annexed people of Cornwall.

Who all seem to vote Lib Dem. Its interesting that Tory voters are almost all contained within the home counties, Yorkshire and the South East while everywhere else seems to vote Labour or Lib Dem. Apparently the more money you have the more right wing you become.

 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah, I mean, communists = Reds. Makes sense.

Don't worry Kronk. In Ireland, the Progressive Democrats were our right wing neoliberals, and our Republicans are completely different to yours

To be on topic: I found the South of England to be pretty right wing (and xenophobic), but Scotland and the North seem to be much more left wing.

Now the last part of that is quite interesting, because when asked to define Britsh people normally take ages because there is such a mix of people.

But the mix is less than that in the US and we all know that the US don't have a great rep abroad. Does this make Britain worse or better at handling immigration.

IMHO Scotland is slightly better when it comes to immigration than some English people simply because we are alot more open than some English people, but we do, do some pretty crappy things.

I think the UK as a whole suffers from selective xenophobia. It's part of being a small island. Scotland does have a tradition of being more "left" in terms of workers rights and other social policies. I wouldn't say it's left in the more "liberal" sense. Attitudes to gay people, certain foreigners and even our own neighbours can be less than desirable.

 Palindrome wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

I will assume you meant the South East and not the South West, including the annexed people of Cornwall.

Who all seem to vote Lib Dem. Its interesting that Tory voters are almost all contained within the home counties, Yorkshire and the South East while everywhere else seems to vote Labour or Lib Dem. Apparently the more money you have the more right wing you become.

Yeah i have noticed that to ,all the way back to the 1900 Liberal reforms were the Torries opposed the plans.

I'd say Scotland (and Wales) share with Ireland a certain obsession with "the Bloody English" which we could all do with forgetting about.

Not sure if Scotland is xenophobic against anyone other than the English though. Haven't been there enough to notice.

Edit: It's quite interesting that none of the main UK parties have a foothold in Northern Ireland, too.

I've only met one Scottish person, a former boss, and he was pretty liberal with most of his views but very homophobic.

Maybe you guys know him? There's not that many people in/from Scotland, right?

/Dumb American

The home counties have always been noticeably traditionalist in the sense where they dislike change, other people and people with different ideas...

 Da Boss wrote:
I'd say Scotland (and Wales) share with Ireland a certain obsession with "the Bloody English" which we could all do with forgetting about.

Not sure if Scotland is xenophobic against anyone other than the English though. Haven't been there enough to notice.

Edit: It's quite interesting that none of the main UK parties have a foothold in Northern Ireland, too.

You'r right there is a bit of the "wee man" complex going on, less so in Wales IMHO, but it's just interesting to notice the diffrence between the mostly rich south of England and the not so rich Scotland and the North of England, perhaps it has something to do with past industries or relatives or experiences by people throughout the country, i just don't know, perhaps it's the stereotype that is making people act this way.

It didn't help that our manufacturing plant was smack in the middle of the Montrose area of Houston, which hosts the annual Gay Pride parade for obvious reasons if you ever visited. Going to lunch with him was a trip.

 kronk wrote:
I've only met one Scottish person, a former boss, and he was pretty liberal with most of his views but very homophobic.

Maybe you guys know him? There's not that many people in/from Scotland, right?

/Dumb American

Don't worry mate, BBC Scotland recently done a survey and were surprissed to discover people outside Edinburgh

I actually got that joke!

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Yes. I regularly get confused when I visit Scotland.
The sheer power of the left wing community there is enough to overwhelm strong minds and destroy weaker ones.

/sarcasm much



You know what i mean, it can't be good for the UK when 2 countries (Scotland and Wales) vote for one side and yet there is still a centre-right coalition.


Try to be serious here.

It's not quite as bad as that.

To be fair, Welsh and Scottish residents have their own assemblies and also get to vote on stuff that affects only England.

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I'd say Scotland (and Wales) share with Ireland a certain obsession with "the Bloody English" which we could all do with forgetting about.

Not sure if Scotland is xenophobic against anyone other than the English though. Haven't been there enough to notice.

Edit: It's quite interesting that none of the main UK parties have a foothold in Northern Ireland, too.

You'r right there is a bit of the "wee man" complex going on, less so in Wales IMHO, but it's just interesting to notice the diffrence between the mostly rich south of England and the not so rich Scotland and the North of England, perhaps it has something to do with past industries or relatives or experiences by people throughout the country, i just don't know, perhaps it's the stereotype that is making people act this way.

You've clearly never been to some places in North Wales...
There are some very unfriendly places if you don't speak Welsh...

 purplefood wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I'd say Scotland (and Wales) share with Ireland a certain obsession with "the Bloody English" which we could all do with forgetting about.

Not sure if Scotland is xenophobic against anyone other than the English though. Haven't been there enough to notice.

Edit: It's quite interesting that none of the main UK parties have a foothold in Northern Ireland, too.

You'r right there is a bit of the "wee man" complex going on, less so in Wales IMHO, but it's just interesting to notice the diffrence between the mostly rich south of England and the not so rich Scotland and the North of England, perhaps it has something to do with past industries or relatives or experiences by people throughout the country, i just don't know, perhaps it's the stereotype that is making people act this way.

You've clearly never been to some places in North Wales...
There are some very unfriendly places if you don't speak Welsh...

nope i have only been in Cardiff, never been to the north of Wales.


Just say "Arab" (a-rab) in welsh it means stop (i think) so when they starting hating you for not knowing Welsh just say "Arab" and walk away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
I actually got that joke!

It would have been awkward if you your reply was


?

On the Welsh thing, when I visited the UK about 6 years ago, I stayed at a small manor house (they called it a castle) for a few nights. When I was out and about, looking at old castles, we stopped at a small pub/diner for dinner. I went in speaking English (well, Texas English), asking if they were serving dinner yet and the lady just looked at me and spoke to her friend in Welsh (I'm assuming). After a bit of awkwardness, I just left. We came back by the next evening, a little later, and there were more cars, so we stopped. Others were being served food, so we gave it a shot.

She took our orders just fine in English that day. Odd. :-)

 kronk wrote:
On the Welsh thing, when I visited the UK about 6 years ago, I stayed at a small manor house (they called it a castle) for a few nights. When I was out and about, looking at old castles, we stopped at a small pub/diner for dinner. I went in speaking English (well, Texas English), asking if they were serving dinner yet and the lady just looked at me and spoke to her friend in Welsh (I'm assuming). After a bit of awkwardness, I just left. We came back by the next evening, a little later, and there were more cars, so we stopped. Others were being served food, so we gave it a shot.

She took our orders just fine in English that day. Odd. :-)

As i said i can't speak for the Welsh, but they are very proud of their native tounge.

We had a pleasant time, though. But then, I am devilishly handsome.

Wow, that's rude.
In Ireland, we call someone like that a Gaelgóire Mór (probably mispelled that). Translates roughly as Big Irish Speaker, and it's sarcastic and derogatory.

Although, I am happy that the Welsh have preserved their language. Good for them.

You run into it some here in Houston. Some of the mom and pop Mexican places where a waitress will act like she can't speak English, even though I've been in that restaurant before and heard her speak English!

Very rare, though.

I had it a lot when I was in France, even when I was making the effort to speak french! Totally put me off France. Dislike visiting there now.

 Da Boss wrote:
I had it a lot when I was in France, even when I was making the effort to speak french! Totally put me off France. Dislike visiting there now.

I had the opposite experience. I was in rural France for 2 weeks (for work) and in Paris for a week (on vacation), and I didn't meet anyone there that I'd call rude except at the Eifle Tower.

But then, I'm devilishly handsome (as we've established) and have a thick Texas/Louisiana accent.

Edit: I think we may be drifting far from topic, though...

 kronk wrote:

There's not that many people in/from Scotland, right?

Grounds keeper Willie went to my school.

 Frazzled wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
Hay forum, me and some people were discussing wheather or not the fact that Scotland is alot more left-wing than the UK as a whole and that actually confuses people who come to visit.

The reason i am asking this is that it would be good to have feedback from general people in the UK, but i belive people in the US will also have an important role in this discussion by giving us what they think of Britains political attitudes compared to there own, and if the attitudes make a diffrence to how people percieve diffrent countries in the UK.

You're all a bunch of socialist pinkoes to me...
I agree in that it probably started when you started driving on the wrong side of the road. Plus all the extra "u"s in your words. Sure signs of commie pinkoism right there.

Oh great god of weiners, do inform me...

Where does the term "pinko" originate from?

 kronk wrote:
I've only met one Scottish person, a former boss, and he was pretty liberal with most of his views but very homophobic.

Maybe you guys know him? There's not that many people in/from Scotland, right?

/Dumb American

I knew one Scot. He would babble gaelic at me and I'd tell him to shut and learn Texan you dernferenner. Ironically we were in the same German class.

While they vote left wing and are left wing in many ways regarding things like public services and unions, there tends to be a lot of backward attitudes more in fitting with the right wing. The deeper you go into Wales and Scotland, the more narrow minded religious people are found, the more casual bigotry and opposition to anything different like gay or black people. They might vote left wing, but they aren't terribly liberal.

When I went to school there was one black kid in the school out of around 800 pupils. Parts of North Wales are even less diverse. I could go on for ages about the various things I've seen or known. Once example of 'tolerance' for someone different was someone I knew who was half Mauritian, but when visiting a village in Wales was actually asked in the street 'What are you?' as though she was an alien. Around the same time her boyfriend was beaten up for 'dating a black' as they put it.

It's not as bad as that probably sounds, that's fairly extreme. But it is distinctly noticeable how parochial the attitudes are once you get out of the cities and into the countryside, however left wing they vote. I lived in Wales most of my life, I've seen a fair bit of it. I've lived in the middle of nowhere in Wales, and lived in the centre of London.

I've had a similar encounter in Wales, until I said loudly to my mates about going back to Cornwall as these celts had forgotten their hospitality. They suddenly all started speaking english and we got on fine.

There's no real excuse for it, it's rude and gakky.

Also, had some Irish in my local pub late one night, bunch of youngsters, they started going on about supporting the IRA and our Irish landlord turfed them out of the pub at once, shouting something in Gaelic, I asked him what it was he called them and he said 'bog irish, scum of the earth'. He wouldn't tolerate any talk of the IRA or anti english talk.

 Squigsquasher wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
Hay forum, me and some people were discussing wheather or not the fact that Scotland is alot more left-wing than the UK as a whole and that actually confuses people who come to visit.

The reason i am asking this is that it would be good to have feedback from general people in the UK, but i belive people in the US will also have an important role in this discussion by giving us what they think of Britains political attitudes compared to there own, and if the attitudes make a diffrence to how people percieve diffrent countries in the UK.

You're all a bunch of socialist pinkoes to me...
I agree in that it probably started when you started driving on the wrong side of the road. Plus all the extra "u"s in your words. Sure signs of commie pinkoism right there.

Oh great god of weiners, do inform me...

Where does the term "pinko" originate from?

Well all you pinkoes started out red, but you're just not good with laundry...
Not like us Amuricaans. Our colors never run. Because we're Americans, and we use Tide, not commie soap.

I have to use Tide Free because of my allergies.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Also, had some Irish in my local pub late one night, bunch of youngsters, they started going on about supporting the IRA and our Irish landlord turfed them out of the pub at once, shouting something in Gaelic, I asked him what it was he called them and he said 'bog irish, scum of the earth'. He wouldn't tolerate any talk of the IRA or anti english talk.

Was that here or back in the land of haggis?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
I have to use Tide Free because of my allergies.

Thats like Tide X2, because its Free. Sweet sweet freedom, not bottled up like Euro soaps.

I've found living here my entire life, that in the rural areas and small to large towns, people who are "different" are a rarity.

When I was in school, there were only white kids in 500 or so students.

In our local town we had one black couple running a cafe (who live 2 doors down from me, and I remember with amusement the night my sister used their hot tub outside with them, forgot her clothes and ran back home with a towel and nothing else) and we used to have around 4 chaps from Pakistan running a decent chip shop (the owner sold it and it's run by a white chap now), and another 2 running a newsagent that's out of the way and rarely visited.

Working in the town for 6 years straight in a retail job with a huge store front window that I stared out of all the time, I've seen one more black couple, a few asian teens and that's about it. Current population is around 3600ish in the town itself, and the surrounding area that the town serves contains a further 110,000 or so.

Now, personally, I've found those living in my village, there's a set of people who disapprove of the black couple who live here, simply because of their skin colour, which is sad. I've also had many uncomfortable conversations with customers that were quite racist whilst working. I think my "favourite" was "Did you hear about that Tesco thing? Where a roof caved in and killed a paki? Well, as they say, Every Little Helps!" followed by a hearty chuckle. It did cheer me up somewhat when he left and the guy behind him said "fething prick".

Politics wise, the well, only one house had a sign different to everyone elses, which was routinely cut down by some unpleasant people. The local area is now represented by a Conservative MP. Who to my shame voted against marriage equality.

Now, going into Cardiff, it's completely different. People of all walks of life there. I have no idea of attitudes as I don't live there/go there often.

 Da Boss wrote:

Edit: It's quite interesting that none of the main UK parties have a foothold in Northern Ireland, too.

I believe the three main UK parties don't actually contest in NI at all - there traditional religious / nationalistic rivalries over-ride domestic politics. However the main NI nationalist party has traditionally sided with the Tories.

Pff, you wouldn't know left if you saw it.

 Frazzled wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Also, had some Irish in my local pub late one night, bunch of youngsters, they started going on about supporting the IRA and our Irish landlord turfed them out of the pub at once, shouting something in Gaelic, I asked him what it was he called them and he said 'bog irish, scum of the earth'. He wouldn't tolerate any talk of the IRA or anti english talk.

Was that here or back in the land of haggis?

That was in Cornwall, Land of the Pasty.

We don't cotton to none of your fancypant Northern haggis down here son. This is the South, South West that is.

strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I'd say Scotland (and Wales) share with Ireland a certain obsession with "the Bloody English" which we could all do with forgetting about.

Not sure if Scotland is xenophobic against anyone other than the English though. Haven't been there enough to notice.

Edit: It's quite interesting that none of the main UK parties have a foothold in Northern Ireland, too.

You'r right there is a bit of the "wee man" complex going on, less so in Wales IMHO, but it's just interesting to notice the diffrence between the mostly rich south of England and the not so rich Scotland and the North of England, perhaps it has something to do with past industries or relatives or experiences by people throughout the country, i just don't know, perhaps it's the stereotype that is making people act this way.

You've clearly never been to some places in North Wales...
There are some very unfriendly places if you don't speak Welsh...

nope i have only been in Cardiff, never been to the north of Wales.


Just say "Arab" (a-rab) in welsh it means stop (i think) so when they starting hating you for not knowing Welsh just say "Arab" and walk away.

It's araf. And it doesn't matter. The north of Wales is not a particularly pleasant place for a non-welsh person to be in my brief experience.

kronk wrote:On the Welsh thing, when I visited the UK about 6 years ago, I stayed at a small manor house (they called it a castle) for a few nights. When I was out and about, looking at old castles, we stopped at a small pub/diner for dinner. I went in speaking English (well, Texas English), asking if they were serving dinner yet and the lady just looked at me and spoke to her friend in Welsh (I'm assuming). After a bit of awkwardness, I just left. We came back by the next evening, a little later, and there were more cars, so we stopped. Others were being served food, so we gave it a shot.

She took our orders just fine in English that day. Odd. :-)

Do you know where in Wales?

It's worth pointing out that social liberalism isn't the exclusive preserve of the left-wing. It's something they've co-opted in an effort to secure the youth vote.

 kronk wrote:
She took our orders just fine in English that day. Odd. :-)

Did you happen to be wearing a WRU jersey or t-shirt that day? Or perhaps just about anything to identify you as a "fan" of Welsh rugby?




Also, I have been wondering, what are the "official" names for y'alls political parties, and where do these other names (like tories, etc.) come from?

 Hedgehog wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:

Edit: It's quite interesting that none of the main UK parties have a foothold in Northern Ireland, too.

I believe the three main UK parties don't actually contest in NI at all - there traditional religious / nationalistic rivalries over-ride domestic politics. However the main NI nationalist party has traditionally sided with the Tories.

The word you're looking for is 'Unionist'. The full name of the Conservative Party is the 'Conservative and Unionist Party'.

Quite right, I forgot that 'nationalist' means something different in NI

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Also, I have been wondering, what are the "official" names for y'alls political parties, and where do these other names (like tories, etc.) come from?

The offical names are obvious. The name Tory dates to the 17th century (it means an Irish cattlethief/bandit) and was used to describe the political partty who supported absolute monarchy (very broadly speaking the right of todays politics) and who were the forerunners of the conservative party. Their opponents were Whigs (a Scottish cattle thief) who favoured a constitutionla monarchy. Labour and the Lid Dems don't exist that early so the name hasn't passed on.

 Hedgehog wrote:
Quite right, I forgot that 'nationalist' means something different in NI

Well, Sinn Fein are a nationalist party, actually.

So, as I understand it, your political spectrum tends to be the one of two steps left of American politics. Extreme left in The States would be considered center left in the the UK?

I know I could google it, and I will, but I wouldn't mind hearing what the party planks are for the big national political parties in the UK. As I understand it, the left/right binary, in addition to not really mirroring the US, also has some pretty significant shifts with such as Labour's support for foreign intervention etc.

Would love to hear about it from Albatross, MGS, or really any of you guys.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
So, as I understand it, your political spectrum tends to be the one of two steps left of American politics. Extreme left in The States would be considered center left in the the UK?

I know I could google it, and I will, but I wouldn't mind hearing what the party planks are for the big national political parties in the UK. As I understand it, the left/right binary, in addition to not really mirroring the US, also has some pretty significant shifts with such as Labour's support for foreign intervention etc.

Would love to hear about it from Albatross, MGS, or really any of you guys.

I'd like to hear from DreadClaw too...

I suspect we're not THAT different collectively.

Our Conservatives are fiscally about the same as the Republican party. They lack the same stance re social conservatism as the Republicans, mostly due to the Brits not being anything like as religious as the Americans.

Your Democrats would be next in the scale, just slightly to the right wing of our Liberal Democrats, fiscally and also, to an extent, socially, given their reporting to a nation of church goers as opposed to a nation of agnostics.

Then we have the Labour Party, it's on the left of our scale, still fairly middle left on the world stage, but left for us. In recent years it's moved from it's 'hard left' just prior to and during Thatcher's years, to a more palatable mid-left, competing on some issues with the Liberal Democrats and at one stage, during Blair's time, being accused of swinging further to the right than the Liberal Democrats. So, useful pictoral time:


Republicans...Conservatives.....Democrats...Liberal Democrats (UK).......Labour (post Blair)...................Labour (pre Blair)..Social Democrats (German).....................................Communists

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Our Conservatives are fiscally about the same as the Republican party. They lack the same stance re social conservatism as the Republicans, mostly due to the Brits not being anything like as religious as the Americans.

Hmm, fiscally I'd place the Tories somewhere between the Republicans and Democrats, actually. And yeah, I agree with you on the social conservatism thing. Those days are long gone in the Party - most of the new crop are more libertarian (but more pragmatic than US Libertarians) in outlook, and that extends to social liberalism insofar as matters of personal choice are concerned. That's certainly the case in my local Conservative association, though that could be just the area. Manchester is quite a socially progressive and liberal place.

Then we have the Labour Party, it's on the left of our scale, still fairly middle left on the world stage, but left for us. In recent years it's moved from it's 'hard left' just prior to and during Thatcher's years, to a more palatable mid-left, competing on some issues with the Liberal Democrats and at one stage, during Blair's time, being accused of swinging further to the right than the Liberal Democrats.

Yeah, they lurched to the right under the Blair-Brown-Mandelson trifecta. That's what kept the Tories out for so long - how do you fight a more glamourous and appealing version of yourself? That trend appears to be reversing, though probably not fast enough for the core voter-base. They're still far right of where they were prior to Thatcher.


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Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
So, as I understand it, your political spectrum tends to be the one of two steps left of American politics. Extreme left in The States would be considered center left in the the UK?

Yes, I'd go along with that. Saying that, the Tories support the provision of a National Health Service (quiet at the back!), which is considered an extreme leftist trait in US politics, no?

 Albatross wrote:

Yes, I'd go along with that. Saying that, the Tories support the provision of a National Health Service (quiet at the back!), which is considered an extreme leftist trait in US politics, no?

That could be debated... a lot...


But, I'll say this, the NHS is beloved of the people, it is a sacred cow and any party openly saying 'we'll shut that down' would be un-electable. I know several Americans raised eyebrows at the NHS display at the opening of the Olympics, but we really do extol it that much. Parties to the right or left in the UK must be seen to be supportive of it or else.

I'm not sure I'd consider the Labour party particularly left anymore, considering the policies under Brown and Blair. It always seemed to me that in terms of economic and social policy, there was very little remaining of what I would call socialism.

And I can't really see that much has changed now either under Miliband.


Socialism in this country fell to pieces with the breaking of the unions. And in its place, we got PFI contracts, the destruction of the grammar schools, further privatisation of public services, further deregulation of the banks, and cash for honours.

Labour and the Conservative party are basically the same these days (centre right). Labour jeers very loudly about how terrible the Tories are doing, but their manifesto is basically the Conservative one with , 'Nuh-uh!' written next to each of the points, and an exclamation that they would do it all better somehow (with a failure to provide any detail on precisely how). They're both made up of the same rich boys, who went to the same schools, and entered politics straight off the bat as a career.

There no longer is a left in this country in mainstream politics.

 Ketara wrote:
I'm not sure I'd consider the Labour party particularly left anymore, considering the policies under Brown and Blair. It always seemed to me that in terms of economic and social policy, there was very little remaining of what I would call socialism.

And I can't really see that much has changed now either under Miliband.


Socialism in this country fell to pieces with the breaking of the unions. And in its place, we got PFI contracts, the destruction of the grammar schools, further privatisation of public services, further deregulation of the banks, and cash for honours.

Labour and the Conservative party are basically the same these days (centre right). Labour jeers very loudly about how terrible the Tories are doing, but their manifesto is basically the Conservative one with , 'Nuh-uh!' written next to each of the points, and an exclamation that they would do it all better somehow (with a failure to provide any detail on precisely how). They're both made up of the same rich boys, who went to the same schools, and entered politics straight off the bat as a career.

There no longer is a left in this country in mainstream politics.

QFT. Labour doesn't really have any policies or direction just now. And while the Conservatives aren't openly destroying the NHS or our education system, they're slipping little wedges in here there and everywhere to help it fall apart on its own.

'Free schools' being built on the Academies model, for example. The Academies system was set up under New Labour, as a way for extra money to come to struggling inner-city schools, to give them a leg up. First move of Gove, the new Conservative Education Secretary? Give the same status - by force in some cases - to all successful, elite schools that don't need the help. This both reduces the special status and support of those needy schools, pours yet more resources towards the successful, and also reduces the mutual support that schools were able to give each other under the local authorities model due to making them all independent, therefore unionise less... (I was in teacher training when this happened, so still have a bee in my bonnet)

And with regard to the original topic, having lived in rural and urban Scotland, and urban England, I attribute the 'social conservatism' of most Scots primarily to population density. I grew up in central Manchester until I was 9, then moved to a village near Perth - a town of 45K people that serves a wider rural population. Before I moved to Perth I'd never heard anyone use the racist slurs that begin with P & N, or heard any kind of homophobia. I got in a lot of fights because I was convinced I'd moved to 1940's Germany. Then living in places like Glasgow and Bristol again, I came to theorise it's just about population density. Are there no gay or brown people where you live? Then they're the unknown, so they're not really people... say what you like about them, racism and homophobia are a given when living in ignorance and a wee bit of fear. I've just got back from a town in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which is an even more rural country, with even less racial diversity - and most young people there couldn't see what was wrong with saying {anagram of Ginger}, because they'd only seen black people on TV... and if they say it all the time in rap songs, it must be ok, right?

Now Scotland's only got half as many people as London, so most of the population is pretty rural. Therefore social conservatism is the norm. It's the same in Taunton, way in the south.

However, Scotland's always been quite a socialist nation, since before socialism existed - I'm guessing part of that is due to just how bloody poor, and bloody proud we've always been. Even our nobles couldn't get very far from the poor bugger working in the field. Our kings were first among equals, not standing above. Admittedly those 'equals' were all nobles, but still, there's a case to be made that it's hardwired into our culture.

Hell, the army was sent to Glasgow in 1919 to stop Scotland becoming a commie state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919_Battle_of_George_Square

So, to summarise from my rambling, Scotland's politically lefty because it always has been, but socially conservative due to lack of exposure and ignorance.

Oh, and one of the many reasons I'm against leaving the Union... Imagine the sh*tehole England will become when our current cabinet has 30 years of their own way. They're already against the European Court of Human Rights because they want to lower worker's rights. gotta make the rich richer, right? I see it as a humanitarian obligation for Scotland to protect the poor of England from such horrors.

Disclaimer: sorry, I may have expressed many opinions in there. I've tried not to have a rant but I might've. I don't want to start a big argument.

Perth isn't exactly the most racially diverse place, I grew up there but it was getting more diversity in the last couple of years

I've only been back 2 weeks, so I haven't seen much of a change yet. I went to the grammar from 96 to 02 so I'm sure you can imagine the enlightened souls I encountered...

I basically would have to agree with Ketara and Captain Roderick.

The Labour Party under Blair/Brown was more like the Tory Party than the traditional socialist party of the mid-20th century.

The Conservatives, though, dare not openly attack the NHS or education system and have simply continued the subtle chipping away that was done under the previous Labour government. (Increasing university fees, for example, and handing the spending contracts to GPs instead of unit trusts.)

On the other hand, socially the Conservatives are not very conservative. They pay lip service to the importance of marriage while doing nothing practical to support it in terms of the tax code. They are relaxed about gay marriage and abortion, for instance. (In general, obviously there are Conservatives who oppose all that. I am talking about practical government policy.)

 Captain Roderick wrote:
I've only been back 2 weeks, so I haven't seen much of a change yet. I went to the grammar from 96 to 02 so I'm sure you can imagine the enlightened souls I encountered...

I went there as well, there has been a couple more Kenyan families move there but not much else (And I hate the muirton 'people')

Small world! I suppose another aspect of British Social Conservatism might come from our desperate need to classify everyone... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

And I managed to get on with those classified as 'Minks' in the end, but Perth is anything *but* ethnically diverse.

 Ketara wrote:
Labour jeers very loudly about how terrible the Tories are doing, but their manifesto is basically the Conservative one with , 'Nuh-uh!' written next to each of the points, and an exclamation that they would do it all better somehow (with a failure to provide any detail on precisely how)

That's just being in opposition, people accused Cameron of exactly the same thing before he took office.

 Albatross wrote:

 Hedgehog wrote:
Quite right, I forgot that 'nationalist' means something different in NI

Well, Sinn Fein are a nationalist party, actually.

More Irish Republican. The SDLP would be Nationalist

 dæl wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Labour jeers very loudly about how terrible the Tories are doing, but their manifesto is basically the Conservative one with , 'Nuh-uh!' written next to each of the points, and an exclamation that they would do it all better somehow (with a failure to provide any detail on precisely how)

That's just being in opposition, people accused Cameron of exactly the same thing before he took office.

Very true, but at least Cameron had a theme to his 'nuh-uh'ing. He constantly rambled on about waste. While it was an important new article yesterday that Milliband actually said he would spend more than the Coalition. Because up until now, even that hadn't been made clear. That should be pretty obvious. 'Our symbol's a rose, and we're red, and we spend more than Tories, right?'

That shows Labour are getting their act together. It's a normal part of the political process.

 Captain Roderick wrote:

Oh, and one of the many reasons I'm against leaving the Union... Imagine the sh*tehole England will become when our current cabinet has 30 years of their own way. They're already against the European Court of Human Rights because they want to lower worker's rights. gotta make the rich richer, right? I see it as a humanitarian obligation for Scotland to protect the poor of England from such horrors.

The horrors of democracy? Jog on, you patronising idiot. You're living in a fantasy world.

I am always momentarily surprised when people break Rule #1 of Dakka. No personal attacks is part of Rule #1. - Lorek

It's not like those great Scottish socialist humanitarians have prevented several generations of Scotland's youth from slipping into benefit dependent smack-addled squalor, is it?

 dæl wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Labour jeers very loudly about how terrible the Tories are doing, but their manifesto is basically the Conservative one with , 'Nuh-uh!' written next to each of the points, and an exclamation that they would do it all better somehow (with a failure to provide any detail on precisely how)

That's just being in opposition, people accused Cameron of exactly the same thing before he took office.

Not convinced of that, at least with regards to the last election anyway.

The economy was just beginning its slide, and we were playing off Brown vs Cameron. In terms of economic policy, there was a substantial difference. Brown wanted to borrow even more exceptionally large and staggering sums of money to kick-start the economy, Cameron wanted to do the opposite and reduce the deficit. You'll note that it turned out after the election that apparently Brown had thought the whole thing would blow over in ten months.

Cameron also disagreed with Labour with regards to the open door immigration policy (something which has been severely cracked down upon during their time in power thus far).


As Brown's idea has been proved wrong, Miliband hasn't really been left with anywhere to run on economic policy. He can't say cutting the deficit is a bad idea, as its blatantly obvious ramping up more debt is bad by this stage of the game. So instead, all he can do is mumble something about how he wouldn't have done it so hard and fast, and try and change the subject.

The facts are pretty simple though. Like the Labour Government prior to Thatcher, the last Labour Government ridiculously overspent, and now we as a nation have to deal with ten to fifteen years of poverty and hardship whilst we get our house in order. Then the boom will start again. All the parties are aware of this, but saying, 'We're all economically screwed for the next eight years regardless' doesn't win many votes.

I'd vote for that party. I reckon more people would than either group expects.

New Labour was bloody awful though. Their paw prints all over education were a pretty distressing part of teaching in the UK, and the weirdo management drone types that got ahead in that environment, well, the less said the better.

I don't like the Tories much at all, either, and I think they showboat a lot. But I don't know that I wouldn't have voted for them, last election, if I'd been able to.

What's the Scottish Independence Party like when it comes to left/right? I assume sort of lefty, since most scots are like that anyway, and they're ridiculously populist?

From what I've seen of the SNP their only real policy is get independence - the rest of their policies are vote-currying exercises. That does mean that, being in Scotland, they're pretty liberal.

I'm sure someone could pick that statement apart though, it's just an opinion based on what I've noticed myself.

Albatross - thanks for that. I'm guessing you're for reducing worker's rights then?

 Albatross wrote:
Jog on, you patronising idiot.

The irony is palpable.

The SNP are an odd case, I find. You've got the whole independence bluster thing from the leadership of the party but then the actual candidates seem rather different.

To indulge in some stereotypes....

You've got the labour candidates, backed by some shifty unions.
You've got the Tory candidates backed by some shifty investment firms or old money or whatever.

Then you've got the SNP guy, who can very well be described as a 'typical' Scot, with all the challenges and maybe even advantages that entails... Eg close family with drink/drug problems and having to deal with that in their lives, or being made redundant before going into politics or other 'normal' stuff that means they're more on the same level as the voters.

I have to say that the desperate bid to get Scottish independence by making it so that the hothead, easily led 16 and 17 year old group can vote was a pretty low move.

Ah well, I very much doubt even that will get them a yes. If somehow it does, I really hope that our government bargains hard to look out for the rest of the UK rather than just caving to anything Scotland wants (like it probably will).

I have to say that the desperate bid to get Scottish independence by making it so that the hothead, easily led 16 and 17 year old group can vote was a pretty low move.

It was lower by not giving proper Devolution in the first place, which is why the Independence movement is growing fast.

In fact, it was discriminatory.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
Jog on, you patronising idiot.

The irony is palpable.

Not really, Albatross is a fairly sensible guy (at least what I've read from him) he's just at times get's a little heated or acts strange with certain things (but then again who doesn't).

The SNP is the perfect example of a party gaining power by promoting divisiveness and infighting. Their entire manifesto is written on the basis of, 'screw the English, and educate the young that the English have screwed us so they vote for us'. I've heard that anti-english sentiments have grown far worse in the last ten years in Scotland than they were forty odd years ago, and they're one of the primary causes. That and Braveheart.


Despite all that, I don't think that the Scots will go independent. They may be antagonistic towards their southern neighbours (who bizarely have nothing but affection for them), but they know which side their bread is buttered on. Without the political and economic clout of Great Britain, they're reduced to a two bit second world nation that won't be able to afford all those lovely healthcare, benefits, and education perks they currently enjoy.


I find it quite entertaining that after the EU told them they'd have to re-apply and the euro crashed, Salmond suddenly has this great idea that they'll retain the sterling as a currency. Considering the controls for that particular money are set within the bank of England, it would hardly be a good mark of 'independence, allowing your inflation rates and more to be controlled by another power.

No, I'm 95% certain that the Union will hold together. Had there been a devo max option, that would undoubtedly have won out, but full independence? Too many problems at just about every level for it to be worth the bother for the average scot.

 Mr Hyena wrote:
It was lower by not giving proper Devolution in the first place, which is why the Independence movement is growing fast.

So you can't take one step at a time? Everything has to be all or nothing?

In fact, it was discriminatory.

Rightyho...

So you can't take one step at a time? Everything has to be all or nothing?

One step at a time is fine, but what should be done then if nothing is happening to improve the rate of Devolution? No other party has anything about this on their manifesto so its not surprising the SNP is doing well.

Perhaps other parties should start looking at this seriously if they want to save the union.

 Ketara wrote:
The SNP is the perfect example of a party gaining power by promoting divisiveness and infighting. Their entire manifesto is written on the basis of, 'screw the English, and educate the young that the English have screwed us so they vote for us'. I've heard that anti-english sentiments have grown far worse in the last ten years in Scotland than they were forty odd years ago, and they're one of the primary causes. That and Braveheart.

Despite all that, I don't think that the Scots will go independent. They may be antagonistic towards their southern neighbours (who bizarely have nothing but affection for them), but they know which side their bread is buttered on. Without the political and economic clout of Great Britain, they're reduced to a two bit second world nation that won't be able to afford all those lovely healthcare, benefits, and education perks they currently enjoy.

I find it quite entertaining that after the EU told them they'd have to re-apply and the euro crashed, Salmond suddenly has this great idea that they'll retain the sterling as a currency. Considering the controls for that particular money are set within the bank of England, it would hardly be a good mark of 'independence, allowing your inflation rates and more to be controlled by another power.

No, I'm 95% certain that the Union will hold together. Had there been a devo max option, that would undoubtedly have won out, but full independence? Too many problems at just about every level for it to be worth the bother for the average scot.

I actually find the Scots and the Welsh to be deluded moaning minnies tbh. They can currently influence politics in England via Parliament and have their own governments so that the English cannot do the same.

As a Cornishman, all I and most other Cornish I know have ever wanted was a colour change on the map and the same recognition they already enjoyed. Recognition of our status as a country of Great Britain instead of a county of England.

They should count their blessings, realize it's a big world and they have far more in common with the English and each other and hold Great Britain together as greater than the sum of it's parts.

I think the most worrying thing about an independent Scotland would be the swing in leadership and direction of the country.

It's quite funny that Salmond is pro-immigration in order to solve Scotland's falling population levels, yet I'd argue that the vast majority of Scottish people are against Immigration. At least to the levels that Salmond wants. Skilled Immigration is something that Scotland needs, we don't need any more non-skilled workers... we just need to give ours a boot up the arse.

I'm worried that Scotland might get independence by a small majority... which would be devastating. I think Scotland & England have far too much Union history to split now. People act as if Scotland has never had any benefit from the current set up.

 Mr Hyena wrote:
One step at a time is fine, but what should be done then if nothing is happening to improve the rate of Devolution?

Improve it from whose point of view and to what end? Total independence? A large degree of autonomy while still being part of the UK? Closely tied with the UK while having a large amount of power over "Scottish" issues?

IMO Scotland doesn't need independence any more than the historic kingdoms of England do. Actions that happened 100's of years ago are history; getting into a frothing rage over them isn't doing anything good for anyone. Look at what happened, learn from it, and move on.

Though it would be nice to cut you all loose and see if you sink or swim. Just so long as we rebuilt the wall first...

I actually find the Scots and the Welsh to be deluded moaning minnies tbh. They can currently influence politics in England via Parliament and have their own governments so that the English cannot do the same.

None of the countries should be able to influence any other in politics...its just wrong.

 Mr Hyena wrote:

I actually find the Scots and the Welsh to be deluded moaning minnies tbh. They can currently influence politics in England via Parliament and have their own governments so that the English cannot do the same.

None of the countries should be able to influence any other in politics...its just wrong.

The peoples of Great Britain should work together, support each other and be greater as a team.

Improve it from whose point of view and to what end? Total independence? A large degree of autonomy while still being part of the UK? Closely tied with the UK while having a large amount of power over "Scottish" issues?

IMO Scotland doesn't need independence any more than the historic kingdoms of England do. Actions that happened 100's of years ago are history; getting into a frothing rage over them isn't doing anything good for anyone. Look at what happened, learn from it, and move on.

Though it would be nice to cut you all loose and see if you sink or swim. Just so long as we rebuilt the wall first...

As long as Westminster policies affect england only (same would happen with the other assemblies). With things like tax, etc decided by the respective countries government. This way issues each country member of the UK faces will be able to be tackled more efficiently by Governments which understand the needs of their people, rather than Westminster which only knows about england.

Honestly, the only thing needed to keep us all together is trade. Thats about it.

The peoples of Great Britain should work together, support each other and be greater as a team.

Then Westminster needs to start making policy that actually reflects that, that helps deal with issues faced not just in england.

 Mr Hyena wrote:

So you can't take one step at a time? Everything has to be all or nothing?

One step at a time is fine, but what should be done then if nothing is happening to improve the rate of Devolution?

Damn straight! When are the English going to get their own Parliament? Stop all those Scottish and Welsh gits from meddling in our home affairs! er, wait....

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


The peoples of Great Britain should work together, support each other and be greater as a team.

Paint the town World red pink... again

 Mr Hyena wrote:

The peoples of Great Britain should work together, support each other and be greater as a team.

Then Westminster needs to start making policy that actually reflects that, that helps deal with issues faced not just in england.

What are the issues in Scotland and Wales that are not occurring in England and being ignored by Westminster?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Mr Hyena wrote:

The peoples of Great Britain should work together, support each other and be greater as a team.

Then Westminster needs to start making policy that actually reflects that, that helps deal with issues faced not just in england.

What are the issues in Scotland and Wales that are not occurring in England and being ignored by Westminster?

Lack of regeneration, Tories causing poverty to worsen with no job creation, etc. Problems that require us to be able to say no to the Tory cuts.

 Mr Hyena wrote:
Then Westminster needs to start making policy that actually reflects that, that helps deal with issues faced not just in england.

I'm struggling to think of any policy that would only work for (or against) people in England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland that could or has been issued from Westminster. I'm also struggling to think of local governments/councils not having a wide enough degree of discrepancy in how they work and respond to the needs of the local people without needing a parliament set over their wider area...

Do you have any examples of Scotland getting the short end of the stick due to policy designed to bolster some other part of the union?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Hyena wrote:
Lack of regeneration, Tories causing poverty to worsen with no job creation, etc. Problems that require us to be able to say no to the Tory cuts.

I'm sure that we've had this conversation before... but have you seen the state of the rest of the UK?

It is not like people are saying "Hey, Scotland is a gak hole anyway, so lets spend all this spare cash somewhere else and no one will notice!"

You also have had your own local parliament that have been super helpful in... well... ignoring all of those issues in favour of blaming the English for everything, wasting billions on a bloody ugly building and calling for independence.

 Mr Hyena wrote:


As long as Westminster policies affect england only (same would happen with the other assemblies). With things like tax, etc decided by the respective countries government. This way issues each country member of the UK faces will be able to be tackled more efficiently by Governments which understand the needs of their people, rather than Westminster which only knows about england.

I'm pretty sure that local issues is the preserve of your local council, which is separate from Westminster.

Honestly, the only thing needed to keep us all together is trade. Thats about it.

So economics. Plus national defence. And because we're a greater whole than we are individually.

And, let's be honest, is it really in anybody's interest to promote ethnically motivated disintegrations? I mean, if anyone has anything to gain here, its the English. We make the majority of the cash in the Union, and ensure that the Union punches above its size in international politics and decision making.

All Scotland gains is a different national anthem, and the right to collect its own (very much reduced) income.

You also have had your own local parliament that have been super helpful in... well... ignoring all of those issues in favour of blaming the English for everything, wasting billions on a bloody ugly building and calling for independence.

The tories unnecessary cuts limit what funding there is.

You assume its a simple case of hatred. But while Holyrood has to still pay attention to Westminster then its going to be more difficult to get anything done. Isn't it common sense to want to be lead by someone who understands the people they're meant to represent?

I'm pretty sure that local issues is the preserve of your local council, which is separate from Westminster.

Local issues are affected by national issues though, until a point where national issues caused by westminster can be ignored in favour of Holyrood decisions.

 Mr Hyena wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Mr Hyena wrote:

The peoples of Great Britain should work together, support each other and be greater as a team.

Then Westminster needs to start making policy that actually reflects that, that helps deal with issues faced not just in england.

What are the issues in Scotland and Wales that are not occurring in England and being ignored by Westminster?

Lack of regeneration, Tories causing poverty to worsen with no job creation, etc. Problems that require us to be able to say no to the Tory cuts.

You're joking right? You think them unleashing their particular brand of 'political magic' again, just as before, affects just Scotland?

Ask the north of England, the south west, in fact everywhere that isn't the green and pleasant home counties.

The Tories always served the garden counties of the south east first and foremost. That's not England, that's a political party. The Scots should be unleashing hell on every Scottish Liberal Democrat who's bedded down with them. They should also be remaining British to continue to contribute and build, if the policies have been hurting the Scots, they'll have been hurting all the other liberal through left voting areas of Britain.

 Mr Hyena wrote:

The tories unnecessary cuts limit what funding there is.

...the sheer ignorance of this statement blows me away.
I mean, do you actually believe what you just wrote? You're telling me that you can look at our national deficit level, and our current debt level, and say cuts are unnecessary?

Newsflash. You can't borrow money forever that you don't have the means to repay. And we as a collective nation, have spent far beyond our means.

Nobody wants cuts. It means failing local economies, less money in your pocket, more expensive services, collapsing arts support and worse. But everyone is getting that, not just the Scottish. They don't just halve the money they spend over the border.

You do know that the Scottish Parliament and councils allocate the money in Scotland right? Parliament has nothing to do with it. They just write the SNP a big fat cheque, and say, 'Spend where you will'. If the money isn't being spent on the issues you think are important, blame the SNP, not Westminster.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Mr Hyena wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Mr Hyena wrote:

The peoples of Great Britain should work together, support each other and be greater as a team.

Then Westminster needs to start making policy that actually reflects that, that helps deal with issues faced not just in england.

What are the issues in Scotland and Wales that are not occurring in England and being ignored by Westminster?

Lack of regeneration, Tories causing poverty to worsen with no job creation, etc. Problems that require us to be able to say no to the Tory cuts.

You're joking right? You think them unleashing their particular brand of 'political magic' again, just as before, affects just Scotland?

Ask the north of England, the south west, in fact everywhere that isn't the green and pleasant home counties.

The Tories always served the gardYou do know that the Scottish Parliament and councils allocate the money in Scotland right? Parliament has nothing to do with it. They just write the SNP a big fat cheque, and say, 'Spend where you will'.en counties of the south east first and foremost. That's not England, that's a political party. The Scots should be unleashing hell on every Scottish Liberal Democrat who's bedded down with them. They should also be remaining British to continue to contribute and build, if the policies have been hurting the Scots, they'll have been hurting all the other liberal through left voting areas of Britain.

Contributing would mean developing up other parts of the UK at the cost of ourselves. I don't see what good will come from that, its just a continuation of the status quo.

You do know that the Scottish Parliament and councils allocate the money in Scotland right? Parliament has nothing to do with it. They just write the SNP a big fat cheque, and say, 'Spend where you will'.

Yes, and the money they get is not decided by the Scottish parliament like it should since scottish resources are going south.

I'm not going to wade fully into the current ongoing debate, but in addition to my earlier sentimental reason for not leaving the union, I also have a few others;

1. We are British these days, and I'm proud to be a Brit. Also proud to be Scots, but that's part of being a Brit. And I do think we all need each other.

2. Economics. Scotland gets more to spend than it pays in Tax. England pays us to stick around and let 'em blow up bits of our northern coastline every year Also, prior to the union, the exchange rate was 16 Scots Pounds to 1 English. I think that's almost Zimbabwean in horribleness. And I don't want our one-trick-economic-pony to be fossil fuels.

3. Business. It's much easier for multinationals to bully small countries into lowering business tax and worker's rights than it is for them to bully bigger countries.

4. I don't really trust the SNP to run things when Independence happens.

 Mr Hyena wrote:
money in Scotland right? Parliament has nothing to do with it. They just write the SNP a big fat cheque, and say, 'Spend where you will'.

Yes, and the money they get is not decided by the Scottish parliament like it should since scottish resources are going south.

A collective only works if the members actively help each other.

Have a look here for relevant reading.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-who-loses-if-scotland-goes-it-alone/6524

In a nutshell, if oil prices stay extremely high then Scotland can just about equal what it gets in subsidies from Parliament. However, should the oil market fall, or any other economic fluctuation occur, you would be worse off.

In other words, the best you stand to gain would be financial parity with what you have now, but with less of an international voice and economic clout.

One of the issues I think is that in an emotive circumstance like this, is very easy to rely on just demonising the other side more. That more just plays into the SNPs hands. For example, Ketaras comments.

I think Scotland could exist as an independent country and it wouldn't be a disaster. However it wouldn't be the paradise that Salmond seems to promote. It just really depends on what us Scots want for the country.

Right now as part of the UK, Scots provide a boutique impact on the world stage, whether it's the overall well respected Scots soldiers, Scots contributing to international diplomacy or trade or any other things of international importance. Scotland leaves the UK, that goes poof, which might be what an informed voting Scottish people want, I can't really blame that. Maybe us Scots really want to become a living version of Tolkien's 'The Shire' maybe we dont want, the responsibility, for example, of hosting a nuclear deterrent on the Clyde. I couldn't really blame us if that was the decision, if it was an informed one.

The way I see it, Scotland could very well exist as a sleepy little country, a golf tourist destination, known for exporting water but the only international impact we'd have would be the occasional scientist and being a glorified hotel resort for some world leaders once a decade.

Right now, Scotland as part of the UK is more than that, we really do contribute to the world and it'd just be sad to lose that potential.

Maybe us Scots really want to become a living version of Tolkien's 'The Shire' maybe we dont want, the responsibility, for example, of hosting a nuclear deterrent on the Clyde

A dangerous one that was forced on the scottish people, that none of us want.

In other words, the best you stand to gain would be financial parity with what you have now, but with less of an international voice and economic clout.

Yet would finally have full domestic say in what we do.

 Mr Hyena wrote:

Maybe us Scots really want to become a living version of Tolkien's 'The Shire' maybe we dont want, the responsibility, for example, of hosting a nuclear deterrent on the Clyde

A dangerous one that was forced on the scottish people, that none of us want.

In other words, the best you stand to gain would be financial parity with what you have now, but with less of an international voice and economic clout.

Yet would finally have full domestic say in what we do.

I would find your statements more worthy of credence if they couldn't just be blanket applied to every single county in the UK who feels hard done by the Tories. I mean, sure, if you guys want independence for the sake of independence, then sure.

I guess I just can't bring myself to understand the mindset of, 'Let's split off from a Union of hundreds of years. Odds are we'll be economically worse off and infinitely less relevant internationally, but hey! We'll be able to say we run our own little patch of land'.

I mean,w hat happens if Glasgow and Edinburgh then decide to go independent from the rest of Scotland? Or, a very real example, the Shetlands?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/mar/17/scottish-independence-islands-home-rule

What if the Shetlands use Scotlands own logic against it and claim the oil nearest to them? And what if they do that and remain part of the UK? All of a sudden, a good chunk of Scotland's oil reserves become part of the UK, using the very precedent of independence and coastline recognition that Scotland will have just used in gaining their own independence.

 Ketara wrote:

 Mr Hyena wrote:

Maybe us Scots really want to become a living version of Tolkien's 'The Shire' maybe we dont want, the responsibility, for example, of hosting a nuclear deterrent on the Clyde

A dangerous one that was forced on the scottish people, that none of us want.

In other words, the best you stand to gain would be financial parity with what you have now, but with less of an international voice and economic clout.

Yet would finally have full domestic say in what we do.

I would find your statements more worthy of credence if they couldn't just be blanket applied to every single county in the UK who feels hard done by the Tories. I mean, sure, if you guys want independence for the sake of independence, then sure.

I guess I just can't bring myself to understand the mindset of, 'Let's split off from a Union of hundreds of years. Odds are we'll be economically worse off and infinitely less relevant internationally, but hey! We'll be able to say we run our own little patch of land'.

I mean,w hat happens if Glasgow and Edinburgh then decide to go independent from the rest of Scotland? Or, a very real example, the Shetlands?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/mar/17/scottish-independence-islands-home-rule

What if the Shetlands use Scotlands own logic against it and claim the oil nearest to them? And what if they do that and remain part of the UK? All of a sudden, a good chunk of Scotland's oil reserves become part of the UK, using the very precedent of independence and coastline recognition that Scotland will have just used in gaining their own independence.

Its been due for a long time before the tories...its not just about them. They're just the confirmation that nothing will ever change unless a stand is made.

If there is legitimate evidence and concerns about the islands having their own say in their own land, they its fine if they go independent. I wouldn't have a problem with that. The people of every country deserve the right to be able to speak up for their area. Comfortable slavery is still slavery.

 Mr Hyena wrote:
The people of every country deserve the right to be able to speak up for their area.

I guess it kind of depends on how you choose to define what is and isn't a country...

Comfortable slavery is still slavery.

I think you have a very skewed idea about what slavery is. Not to mention a very skewed idea about how the UK (and indeed the real world) works...

Edit: Quote fix.

 purplefood wrote:

kronk wrote:On the Welsh thing, when I visited the UK about 6 years ago, I stayed at a small manor house (they called it a castle) for a few nights. When I was out and about, looking at old castles, we stopped at a small pub/diner for dinner. I went in speaking English (well, Texas English), asking if they were serving dinner yet and the lady just looked at me and spoke to her friend in Welsh (I'm assuming). After a bit of awkwardness, I just left. We came back by the next evening, a little later, and there were more cars, so we stopped. Others were being served food, so we gave it a shot.

She took our orders just fine in English that day. Odd. :-)

Do you know where in Wales?

It was a few miles up the road from here. If the link doesn't work, then toss "craig-y-nos castle" into google maps. That's the area we were in.

 Captain Roderick wrote:
Albatross - thanks for that. I'm guessing you're for reducing worker's rights then?

Not as a matter of principle. I'm not in favour of defending them as a matter of principle either.

And you're welcome.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
Jog on, you patronising idiot.

The irony is palpable.

Go on...

 Cheesecat wrote:


Not really, Albatross is a fairly sensible guy (at least what I've read from him) he's just at times get's a little heated or acts strange with certain things (but then again who doesn't).

I just do what I do and accept the consequences. Life's more fun that way.

I do think Scotland would find things harder out of the Union than in, and England would find things easier without Scotland than with. It would save a lot of money.

The main problem would be where to site the nuclear weapons.

I found the latest exchange interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22251103 or look down for tl;dr version.

Salmond & the SNP wrote:
We may choose to retain the pound. And the rest of the British will perfectly happy to have us do so because we're their biggest trading partner. And because it would be difficult to take on our share of the national debt otherwise. In fact, if they don't let us keep the pound, we might abstain from taking any national debt at all! Win/Win!

Treasury &Osborne wrote:
Actually, I think its up to the rest of the British public whether or not they want to be in a currency union with you, its not a default accepted setting. And currency union for trade partner's sake is exactly what's causing the problems in the Eurozone, so we're not madly keen on it. And you're not very independent if Westminster controls your currency, are you?

Considering the SNP called the pound, 'a millstone around its neck' two years ago, they certainly seem to have changed their tune.

I have 3 things to say


1. I find it funny how when you type SNP and you hover over it ,it comes up "slow and purposeful" (lol)

2. IMHO the left in Scotland is farther left than the rest of the UK, but the UK is farther left than the US. Making left in Britain extreme in America, but left in Scotland socialist in the UK.

3. To the Englsih people who dislike Scotland having a say in things that only affect England, i agree if it's a matter that only affects England and Wales then Scottish and N.I M.P's shouldn't count to the result.

 Palindrome wrote:

Apparently the more money you have the more right wing you become.

That's crazy talk! It's almost like if you reap the benefits of a system you are more likely to want to maintain the status quo! Or Conserve what you have?

 Easy E wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

Apparently the more money you have the more right wing you become.

That's crazy talk! It's almost like if you reap the benefits of a system you are more likely to want to maintain the status quo! Or Conserve what you have?

Well, I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just a realist.

 Albatross wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

Apparently the more money you have the more right wing you become.

That's crazy talk! It's almost like if you reap the benefits of a system you are more likely to want to maintain the status quo! Or Conserve what you have?

Well, I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just a realist.

Does that mean that left-wing people aren't realists, because if the is the case then is Scotland in cloud coo-coo land. But the majority of the UK is a bunch of "realists".

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 Albatross wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

Apparently the more money you have the more right wing you become.

That's crazy talk! It's almost like if you reap the benefits of a system you are more likely to want to maintain the status quo! Or Conserve what you have?

Well, I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just a realist.

Does that mean that left-wing people aren't realists, because if the is the case then is Scotland in cloud coo-coo land. But the majority of the UK is a bunch of "realists".

I know you're being sarcastic, but you're actually more correct than you realise...

 Albatross wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 Albatross wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

Apparently the more money you have the more right wing you become.

That's crazy talk! It's almost like if you reap the benefits of a system you are more likely to want to maintain the status quo! Or Conserve what you have?

Well, I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just a realist.

Does that mean that left-wing people aren't realists, because if the is the case then is Scotland in cloud coo-coo land. But the majority of the UK is a bunch of "realists".

I know you're being sarcastic, but you're actually more correct than you realise...

i wasn't being sarcastic i was simply asking if in your humble opinion that very few Scottish people are realists surely entire countries can't be wrong. We seem to have made good use of our devolved parliament, may it forever stay devolved and never seperate.