I heard some cool stuff about this model! First off I heard that its dimentions is "suppose" to be six feet by at least a 3 ft shoulder length. Its easily more massive than anything else ever.
I also heard that its suppose to be the most powerful model ever made by GW...FW or whomever came up with the rules. But I do not know where to look for the rules.
Like its fairly easily capable of wiping out at least 6k of points of armies by itself from its sheer firepower alone and is almost impossible to kill.
How powerful is it exactly? Is it really the over powered model that no one can build because of cost?
Are there updated rules for 6th edition?
Vasarto wrote: I heard some cool stuff about this model! First off I heard that its dimentions is "suppose" to be six feet by at least a 3 ft shoulder length. Its easily more massive than anything else ever.
While the Imperator is indeed the largest of GW's titans, in 40K scale it comes out to around 3' tall. Not 6, and definitely not 8.
I also heard that its suppose to be the most powerful model ever made by GW...FW or whomever came up with the rules. But I do not know where to look for the rules.
There aren't any official rules for 40K, because it's never been made for 40K. It was from the Epic game.
Yeah its pretty beastly. Dont forget that youre playing it only in an apoc game and that the person that brings it likely wont be taking anything else and that it will be a HUGE target for then enemy team.
It's so much of a target it probably won't live that long. You'll have everyone from Joe McAverage and his Lascannon to Superman von Chesticles and his mega-ultra-laser-tank-gun-of-doom firing at it the first chance they get.
Fairly destrutive, but has a huge minimum range, rendering it useless against close foe.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Imotehk
The arm weapons can fire straight down, and the only weapons worth taking are the Hellstorm Canno, Vengeance Cannon and Plasma Annihilator which have no minimum range.
Anyway, the Imperator is over twice the height of the warlord, which would roughly be around 3.5' feet tall, so the Imperator stands at a good two meters in 40k scale.
Only epic models for this exist...will Hayes, the best sculptor forgeworld has, has expressed interest in doing a warlord project (one class below) but it will probably be a few more years due to the hours heresy stuff.
Kain wrote: ...They made a model out of it and the Warlord?
I thought those were scratch build only?
Anyway, the Imperator is over twice the height of the warlord, which would roughly be around 3.5' feet tall, so the Imperator stands at a good two meters in 40k scale.
No, fail, wrong.
Going by the scale charts on both the Warlord datasheet and Emperor Titan datasheet, they are NOWEHERE NEAR 2 metre!
The Warlord is usually described as 1.5 the height of a Reaver Titan (16"), give or take, so would put it at roughly at 24" tall, and its scale chart in the old Apocalypse book shows similar comparison when compared to the Warhound Titan at 10.5"
The Emperor's fluff height varies. I've seen entries on wikis that quote them as 150ft, to 400ft, to 150metres to even an enormous 400m.
That said, the scale chart puts the model if you convert one, somewhere between 3 Warhounds (31.5") and 4 Warhounds (42")
A safe bet would be somewhere around 36", which makes it 3 times the height of a Reaver, and 1.5 the height of a Warlord.
2 metres! Good god man! Maybe a Strike Cruiser from nose to engine! Not a 28mm scale Titan! Sorry if I come off a little rude, but I am just flabberghasted really.
A good scale shot with official Epic miniatures (other than the Warlord is one of the 1st edition beetlebacks) that you can extrapolate a 40K size from:
Kain wrote: ...They made a model out of it and the Warlord?
I thought those were scratch build only?
Anyway, the Imperator is over twice the height of the warlord, which would roughly be around 3.5' feet tall, so the Imperator stands at a good two meters in 40k scale.
No, fail, wrong.
Going by the scale charts on both the Warlord datasheet and Emperor Titan datasheet, they are NOWEHERE NEAR 2 metre!
The Warlord is usually described as 1.5 the height of a Reaver Titan (16"), give or take, so would put it at roughly at 24" tall, and its scale chart in the old Apocalypse book shows similar comparison when compared to the Warhound Titan at 10.5"
The Emperor's fluff height varies. I've seen entries on wikis that quote them as 150ft, to 400ft, to 150metres to even an enormous 400m.
That said, the scale chart puts the model if you convert one, somewhere between 3 Warhounds (31.5") and 4 Warhounds (42")
A safe bet would be somewhere around 36", which makes it 3 times the height of a Reaver, and 1.5 the height of a Warlord.
2 metres! Good god man! Maybe a Strike Cruiser from nose to engine! Not a 28mm scale Titan! Sorry if I come off a little rude, but I am just flabberghasted really.
A strike cruiser is roughly 3km long, and so would be about the size of your car.
A 15km Battleship would be what...the size of an abrahms tank?
fidel wrote: QUICKLY.... SOMONE MATHHAMMER A BATTLEBARGE AND STRIKE CRUISER INTO REAL WORLD FROM 28MM!
I realllllyyyy want to see this happen
Well, finding size comparisons for 40k stuff is always a nightmare, but one guy did a lot of research and claims that a strike cruiser is about the size of a Lunar class ship, except a little chunkier. That makes it about 6-8km keel length. battle barges are significantly harder, and the more spaceborne chapters obviously have bigger stuff, but he estimated a size of about 15 km as a good "baseline", to put them as slightly bigger than a standard navy battleship.
Doing some really quick MS Paint math, I would estimate the "height" of said ships at their tallest points (i.e. back near the engines where they get wider) to be 5.3 km for the battle barge and 2.85 km for the strike cruiser. I could only get side views, not top, so for width you're on your own.
Apparently a Warlord is about 100 ft tall given the scale drawings in the Apoc rulebook, and it should have a 24" mini. When I did the math on that I ended up with a scale of exactly 50:1 (when applied in a meter to meter context)
Thus a strike cruiser will be about (7*1000/50)= 140 meters long and 57 meters high. The mighty battle barge will be 300 meters long and 106 meters high.
Kain wrote: ...They made a model out of it and the Warlord?
I thought those were scratch build only?
Anyway, the Imperator is over twice the height of the warlord, which would roughly be around 3.5' feet tall, so the Imperator stands at a good two meters in 40k scale.
No, fail, wrong.
Going by the scale charts on both the Warlord datasheet and Emperor Titan datasheet, they are NOWEHERE NEAR 2 metre!
The Warlord is usually described as 1.5 the height of a Reaver Titan (16"), give or take, so would put it at roughly at 24" tall, and its scale chart in the old Apocalypse book shows similar comparison when compared to the Warhound Titan at 10.5"
The Emperor's fluff height varies. I've seen entries on wikis that quote them as 150ft, to 400ft, to 150metres to even an enormous 400m.
That said, the scale chart puts the model if you convert one, somewhere between 3 Warhounds (31.5") and 4 Warhounds (42")
A safe bet would be somewhere around 36", which makes it 3 times the height of a Reaver, and 1.5 the height of a Warlord.
2 metres! Good god man! Maybe a Strike Cruiser from nose to engine! Not a 28mm scale Titan! Sorry if I come off a little rude, but I am just flabberghasted really.
A strike cruiser is roughly 3km long, and so would be about the size of your car.
A 15km Battleship would be what...the size of an abrahms tank?
fidel wrote: QUICKLY.... SOMONE MATHHAMMER A BATTLEBARGE AND STRIKE CRUISER INTO REAL WORLD FROM 28MM!
I realllllyyyy want to see this happen
Assuming 1:64 scale a 3km long cruiser would be...
47 Metres (150ft)
At that size it would be cheaper to buy one of these and stick votive icons all over it
Amd if you want a 15km battleship at 1:64 scale, look into giving the HMS Belfast a paintjob
Edit:
Sorry I underestimated, Belfast is only half size
This is a 15km Imperial Navy battleship in 1:64 scale
purplefood wrote: Imperator means Emperor.
They are the same class there are just different names for the class.
Imperator means Emperor in High Gothic/Latin, but its a pattern of EBT designed for all purpose fire platforms and close assault.
As mentioned the other pattern is a Warmonger which is solely designed for long range shoot-outs beyond the range of other Superheavies, including Titans. If you think that's impossible, it can have a Doomsday Missile Launcher that has a range of a might 540"!!! That's over 13 metres!
Can lead to confusion?
Its GW, thats not a mistake its a feature.
The new Apoc book for example, has Warhounds and Reavers, no Warlord and no Imperator. If youre not carefully looking for other classes and types than the 2 of the book it will be easy to miss the few lines.
( plus, someone managed to localize the Emperor class.. points at flag. )
OtoH, they included history of some Titan Legions.
Sadly another work of and ..
1hadhq wrote: Can lead to confusion?
Its GW, thats not a mistake its a feature.
This is not true. Not GW's fault. The fact is people confuse the name "Imperator" to be interchangable with "Emperor." This is people's fault, not GW.
The fact they have many different patterns, like all vehicle classes, is not strange. However, as Imperator pattern is the one designed for close(r) range combat than the other main pattern (which is too far) the Warmonger, the Imperator pattern appers in books more. As some people have basic understanding of Latin, or google translate, and see Imperator to mean Emperor they think the names are interchangable.
However big there are game-wise, fluff-wise they're a bit daft. They could probably be taken out by three Guardsmen and an Ogryn, the way they seem to get regularly trashed by a couple of Titans that are supposed to be melted pools of radioactive slag five seconds into the encounter judging by the build up to the showdown you get in the novels.
The one in Mechanicus does OK, though. Well, until it gets its legs melted off by a volcano.
Fluffwise BL can't really get them right. If they tried to portray them as the game-background does, then the story would be boring. If they were antagonists, the protagonist characters and Titan (Legion) should be scrap within a paragraph. And if the protagonist Legion had them, then the story is boring because there is no struggle.
I think I read it on 40k Wiki, but I'm not so don't quote me, that Emperor Titan's void shields, armour and firepower are so great that they can even trade fire with low orbiting spacecraft. Not capital ships live Emperor class Cruisers and Battlebarges, but a Strike Cruiser.
They are strong enough to resist orbital bombardment and carry some weapons that can be found on space ships, but I don't think they have any practical surface to space fire capabilities.
Obviously it wouldn't be your first choice but still, my point is that EBT have such God-stopping levels of firepower that if fluff was rigigly adhered to, any BL novel would have the side with the EBT win almost instantly.
Although, what I would really like to see is EBT vs EBT, maybe in multiples.
Grey Templar wrote: They are strong enough to resist orbital bombardment and carry some weapons that can be found on space ships, but I don't think they have any practical surface to space fire capabilities.
I think they have a defense laser mounted in that cathedral to shoot at space ships.
1hadhq wrote: Can lead to confusion?
Its GW, thats not a mistake its a feature.
This is not true. Not GW's fault. The fact is people confuse the name "Imperator" to be interchangable with "Emperor." This is people's fault, not GW.
You didn't catch my Point .... I was Talking about the most recent Book . First Apoc and Epic : armageddon aren't so confusing, but their latest publication may be.
Deadshot wrote: Fluffwise BL can't really get them right. If they tried to portray them as the game-background does, then the story would be boring. If they were antagonists, the protagonist characters and Titan (Legion) should be scrap within a paragraph. And if the protagonist Legion had them, then the story is boring because there is no struggle.
I think I read it on 40k Wiki, but I'm not so don't quote me, that Emperor Titan's void shields, armour and firepower are so great that they can even trade fire with low orbiting spacecraft. Not capital ships live Emperor class Cruisers and Battlebarges, but a Strike Cruiser.
Every faction has defenses against Emperor Battle Titans.
The Orks in Helsreach for example manage to put one in peril by luring its hothead princeps into an ambush, they detonate enough ordinance to drop a city on it, pinning it down.
Later, they proceed to of course send an even bigger Titan at them.
I think that it hurts lore more in trying to put exact numbers on certain things. For me, it's more enjoyable to better know in vague form how one thing is better than another like: lasgun is an extremely efficient weapon; Emperor titans are as high as mountains and etc. I always found GW attempts to put hard numbers on something to be distasteful.
I begin to imagine titans from this excellent piece of artwork:
Warhound titans are massive compared to conventional scale warfare, but they are small enough to use terrain such as cities as cover and hiding spots as it was seen in novel "Titanicus''. From it, I imagine reavers to be significantly larger than theirs smaller brothers and warlord titans yet again noticebly larger than reaver titans. Also, I think that warlord titans are beyond of stealth due to their large size and they are size of towering giants in battlefields.
Such as:
In comparison reavers are smaller like:
And mighty Emperor's class titans are comparable to mountains as I said:
I hate to say it, because Titanicus was my favorite 40k novel bar none, but the cover really annoyed me. For one thing I don't recall there being a single space marine in the entire book, and for another I swear the shadowy titan in the background has to be significantly bigger than the one in the foreground, even though they're obviously the same model based on the outlines (I swear it has to be bigger, maybe my sense of scale/depth perception is just broken).
They are my sources of imagination, I like to imagine titans similar to those. For me, titans are huge like that and not just pathetic few metres in height how it was painted in audio drama: ''Eye of Vengeance''.
Btw: Reaver's head should be at the level of warlord's chest. In that picture, warlord titans are little too large. Or as you say, it's depth problems. Also, those mountains in last picture are very small in size. They are just huge enough to be real mountains, but they are dwarfed compared to that we have on earth.
If I did and at some stage I seriously hope to make one of these, then I would most definitely make its arm weapons a plasma annihilator and a hellstorm cannon.
BaconUprising wrote: If I did and at some stage I seriously hope to make one of these, then I would most definitely make its arm weapons a plasma annihilator and a hellstorm cannon.
Well, if Destroyer weapons still Auto-wound, auto-armour penentrate, ignore cover and inflict instant death, then you want the Vengeance cannon and Hellstorm.
Firing 4 10" Blasts with Str D, AP2, vs 6 Str 8 or 3 Str 10, AP2, with longer range and larger AoE.
But the Hellstom cannon yes. 8 pie plates of Str 9, AP3 awesome. Like 9 Basilisks rolled ominto 1 weapon. Guarenteed to wipe any MEQ off the table in one go.
This thread is a bit weird. It's a fluff background section of the forum and if anyone is off-topic here then it's only people who talk about table top game's rules.
That's a Warlord, not an Imperator.
Why not? You will be hard-pressed if you would need to find Emperor-class titan which would be significantly larger than this.
The thread is related to fluff height and height of scratchbuilt models models of the Warlord and EBT.in relation to Reaver and Warhound Titans. Tabletop rules have a relation to this. Such as their Carapce minimum range being 36", in relation to Reaver and Warlords who's carapace weapons have 12" and 24" minimum range respectively, which can help gauge the size.
Deadshot wrote: Fluffwise BL can't really get them right. If they tried to portray them as the game-background does, then the story would be boring. If they were antagonists, the protagonist characters and Titan (Legion) should be scrap within a paragraph. And if the protagonist Legion had them, then the story is boring because there is no struggle.
I think I read it on 40k Wiki, but I'm not so don't quote me, that Emperor Titan's void shields, armour and firepower are so great that they can even trade fire with low orbiting spacecraft. Not capital ships live Emperor class Cruisers and Battlebarges, but a Strike Cruiser.
Every faction has defenses against Emperor Battle Titans.
The Orks in Helsreach for example manage to put one in peril by luring its hothead princeps into an ambush, they detonate enough ordinance to drop a city on it, pinning it down.
Later, they proceed to of course send an even bigger Titan at them.
That's what I'm saying. Even that amount of ordnance would barely supress the EBT and not very effective. Also, EBTs are so rare, powerful and revered that hotheads don't get one, period.
And really going by descriptions, any defences are obstacles at best. Emperor Battle Titans are THE be all and end all in ground warfare. Enough firepower to level squadrons of other superheavies, regiments of tanks, legions of soldiers, several times over. More protection than all the Aurora Chapter's vehicle pool combined. Essentially unbeatable except by extended orbital bombardment or the combined firepower of many, many smaller Titans and Titan-Hunters like the Shadowsword.
But niether the Design team or BL can create rules or stories for them that match up, because it would be so OP broken it would make Heldrakes look weak and the stories would be uninteresting.
I can use an example from "Titanicus" and grey knights novels which portrayed Emperor class titan (spoilers of course).
There emperor class titan had marched into a squad of warlord titans, probably due to his arrogance and insanity which is typical from chaos. Focused fire from all warlord titans was enough to overload its shields and to destroy it, meaning that even unsynchronized fire from warlord class titans are enough to destroy Emperor class titans. It of course would take longer due to recharging shields, but squads of warlord titans are still enough to bring these monsters down.
In Grey Knights novel, Castigator class siege titan was more advanced version of Emperor class titans, it was a relic of Dark age of technology, a pinnacle of human titan technologies. Even though, author went too far describing how advanced it was, it still might be a viable example of how powerful they are.
In that novel, warhound titan was ordered to charge into him. Scout titan made a pretty good job at damaging him and soaking up damage. He wasn't destroyed out-right by burst damage and even more, I think he had managed to inflict light armor damage on one part of that titan. Details of how battle went are vague. That scene is poorly described, but I think Castigator class titan simply was ambushed and warhound managed to get into range where his shields don't work anymore and long-range weaponary is unusable.
I'll repeat again that I really wish we could have had a longer more involved battle at that point in Titanicus. At least a couple pages of the warlords dancing around and pecking at the Emperor with a couple getting destroyed before they used the "desperate forbidden technique" and synchronized fire.
It just felt like the author doing something like "hey, I just put an Emperor titan in here...oops. How do I make it go away?"
Why not? You will be hard-pressed if you would need to find Emperor-class titan which would be significantly larger than this.
What do you mean 'why not?' ... It's not an imperator because it's not an imperator. Warlord and imperator titans look completely different.
You can't really judge the size of it based on there being rocks in front of it, and the size of pretty much everything in the 40k universe varies wildly from artwork to artwork anyway. You really can't draw any firm conclusions about scale from 40k art.
I want you to provide reasons why you think it's not an Emperor class titan. Knowing adeptus mechanicus, I wouldn't be surprised if every one of them is ''hand-crafted" piece of art and because of that, their look could differ wildly.
I judge from artwork size of titans, because I find it a better representation than GW's table top hard numbers.
Imperator class titans tend to be characterised by the large cathedral that sits on their shoulders...
Also a titan being kilometres high would be absurd, more absurd than most things in 40k already are that is.
I like w40k absurdity, then every damn thing in this universe is more deadlier than a last one. Personally, I don't find hard to suspend my disbelief then we are talking about titans size.
Btw: can anyone provide me with any source which describes Titans? I care not of race or nature of a source, even decent fan-fiction will do. I want to gather all information about them to look for clues which would suggest my theory about hand-crafting Titans. It's OT, but I want to know if Emperor class titans have powerful enough machine spirits to actually refuse princeps if it doesn't like him? Smaller ones already interact with them and ''possess'' them. Knowing that machine spirit only grows in strength with complexity of its machinery, Emperor titans should possess spirits as strong as their possessed deamonic Titans and would be comparable with spaceships who were seen to actually bully its screws.
Emperor Titans really suffer the worf effect. Them losing to a bunch of Warhound Titans is like, the equivalent of a fit adult human soldier losing to a bunch of housecats. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons, Black Library writers. -_- Why even bother building something that probably takes more time, materials, and resources to build than an entire friggin' city if it can lose in a match-up like that?
TiamatRoar wrote: Emperor Titans really suffer the worf effect. Them losing to a bunch of Warhound Titans is like, the equivalent of a fit adult human soldier losing to a bunch of housecats. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons, Black Library writers. -_- Why even bother building something that probably takes more time, materials, and resources to build than an entire friggin' city if it can lose in a match-up like that?
The Yamato doesn't take more resources to build than an entire city (It takes generations to build one). Realistically the Emperor Titan either should win more to justify its cost, or shouldn't exist in the first place because there's no way to justify its cost.
Course, this is the same world where Space Marines are supposed to live for centuries and chapters only have a thousand marines yet they somehow persist despite how often they get butchered in the fluf and are allegedly CONSTANTLY in war (in order for a chapter of 1,000 marines to realistically be able to survive and replenish losses while being constantly in war as portrayed by the stories, they'd have to be a LOT more durable than what we're seeing of them, scalpel of the emperor or not!). Warhammer 40k logistics just get really nonsensical sometimes.
No, its where a practically godlike machine is brought down far too easily by things that by all rights should be mere annoyances. Smaller Titans and dedicated Titan hunters yes, but not when they bring them down witout suffering catastrophic losses.
Deadshot wrote: The thread is related to fluff height and height of scratchbuilt models models of the Warlord and EBT.in relation to Reaver and Warhound Titans. Tabletop rules have a relation to this. Such as their Carapce minimum range being 36", in relation to Reaver and Warlords who's carapace weapons have 12" and 24" minimum range respectively, which can help gauge the size.
Deadshot wrote: Fluffwise BL can't really get them right. If they tried to portray them as the game-background does, then the story would be boring. If they were antagonists, the protagonist characters and Titan (Legion) should be scrap within a paragraph. And if the protagonist Legion had them, then the story is boring because there is no struggle.
I think I read it on 40k Wiki, but I'm not so don't quote me, that Emperor Titan's void shields, armour and firepower are so great that they can even trade fire with low orbiting spacecraft. Not capital ships live Emperor class Cruisers and Battlebarges, but a Strike Cruiser.
Every faction has defenses against Emperor Battle Titans.
The Orks in Helsreach for example manage to put one in peril by luring its hothead princeps into an ambush, they detonate enough ordinance to drop a city on it, pinning it down.
Later, they proceed to of course send an even bigger Titan at them.
That's what I'm saying. Even that amount of ordnance would barely supress the EBT and not very effective. Also, EBTs are so rare, powerful and revered that hotheads don't get one, period.
And really going by descriptions, any defences are obstacles at best. Emperor Battle Titans are THE be all and end all in ground warfare. Enough firepower to level squadrons of other superheavies, regiments of tanks, legions of soldiers, several times over. More protection than all the Aurora Chapter's vehicle pool combined. Essentially unbeatable except by extended orbital bombardment or the combined firepower of many, many smaller Titans and Titan-Hunters like the Shadowsword.
But niether the Design team or BL can create rules or stories for them that match up, because it would be so OP broken it would make Heldrakes look weak and the stories would be uninteresting.
Except the Ork Giga-gargant was big enough to more or less step on EBTs.
I want you to provide reasons why you think it's not an Emperor class titan.
It isnt an Emperor class Titan because its a Warlord as shown by Purplefoods pic.
Emps are identified by their cathedral like structures on the back of them and much greater size/weaponry loadout.
It dosent matter if you believe the art you posted is interpretive or not, its a fact the pic you linked is a Warlord.
Deadshot wrote: That's what I'm saying. Even that amount of ordnance would barely supress the EBT and not very effective. Also, EBTs are so rare, powerful and revered that hotheads don't get one, period.
Provide the fluff that states that millions+ tons of debris on top of it would not be able to suppress an EBT.
The Imperium of Man is nothing if not "inefficient". The very usage of Titans is incredibly idiotic, considering they have their own sentience that tries to override the Princeps. Which it was beginning to do.
And really going by descriptions, any defences are obstacles at best. Emperor Battle Titans are THE be all and end all in ground warfare. Enough firepower to level squadrons of other superheavies, regiments of tanks, legions of soldiers, several times over. More protection than all the Aurora Chapter's vehicle pool combined. Essentially unbeatable except by extended orbital bombardment or the combined firepower of many, many smaller Titans and Titan-Hunters like the Shadowsword.
But niether the Design team or BL can create rules or stories for them that match up, because it would be so OP broken it would make Heldrakes look weak and the stories would be uninteresting.
Rules? Sure.
Stories? In Helsreach it was only inconvenience all of twice in the story. Once, when a city was dropped on it, which it recovered from, and later when an even larger Titan was brought against it.
And of course in Mechanicus the enemy EBT just straight up was never defeated, it went through all the loyalist Titans and vehicles like they were made of tissue paper. It required causing the volcano it was standing on to erupt to take it out, in a sort of suicidal maneuver which also killed all the loyalists.
TiamatRoar wrote: Emperor Titans really suffer the worf effect. Them losing to a bunch of Warhound Titans is like, the equivalent of a fit adult human soldier losing to a bunch of housecats. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons, Black Library writers. -_- Why even bother building something that probably takes more time, materials, and resources to build than an entire friggin' city if it can lose in a match-up like that?
no it's more like a Buffalo being taken down by a pack of wolves. Very feasable.
Ernestas wrote: I want you to provide reasons why you think it's not an Emperor class titan.
For one, because it looks nothing like an Emperor Class Titan, but does look like a Warlord Class Titan.
For two, because that particular artwork is from the cover art for the graphic novel 'Titan II - Vivaporius', and is the Warlord Titan Imperius Dictatio.'
I couldn't disagree more that Imperium is inefficient. Many Imperium based organisations are very model of how things should be done. Problem comes not from Imperium, but from its independent planets which often are run incompetently. Also, bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is an necessary evil in order to at least have any solid rule over millions of planets. Even in real life, there is little to nothing that would be more efficient for the Imperium to use than bureaucracy.
I have been thinking about Titans sizes again. I was shocked then I have heard people talking about 60 metres tall Emperor class titans. Such constructs would be simply too small to justify their rarity. Emperor class titans should be an extreme resource and time drain due to their rarity on a battlefields. If that isn't the case, then why they are so rare on a battlefield? Most certainly, planets who are dedicated to industry should just mass-produce in their thousands at very least. Due to their low material costs and damage that they can inflict (even lower level titans impact is significant) as seen in ''Titianicus" novel that would make Imperium totally unbeatable.
I'm looking at skyscrapers to better imagine possible sizes of them and for me, it seems appropriate to put such constructs at up to 1km in height.
60m? Emperors? Nay. Try 150+. 60 for Warlords as a rough estimate is the usual figure.
Emperor Titans are just too complex, difficult to build and expensive to mass produce. Even Warhounds are massively expensive and difficult to build more than two or three at a time.
Deadshot wrote: 60m? Emperors? Nay. Try 150+. 60 for Warlords as a rough estimate is the usual figure.
Emperor Titans are just too complex, difficult to build and expensive to mass produce. Even Warhounds are massively expensive and difficult to build more than two or three at a time.
this. I thnk you are thinking a size down if you think the largest titn is only 60m
Ernestas wrote: I have been thinking about Titans sizes again. I was shocked then I have heard people talking about 60 metres tall Emperor class titans. Such constructs would be simply too small to justify their rarity. Emperor class titans should be an extreme resource and time drain due to their rarity on a battlefields. If that isn't the case, then why they are so rare on a battlefield? Most certainly, planets who are dedicated to industry should just mass-produce in their thousands at very least. Due to their low material costs and damage that they can inflict (even lower level titans impact is significant) as seen in ''Titianicus" novel that would make Imperium totally unbeatable.
I'm looking at skyscrapers to better imagine possible sizes of them and for me, it seems appropriate to put such constructs at up to 1km in height.
Comparing the Epic Warhound and Imperator, and scaling that up based on the 40K Warhound puts the Imperator at around 75 to 80m tall. 1km is so far out of the ballpark that it never even saw the ball.
Rarity doesn't have to be a result of being improbably large. Imperators are rare because they are incredibly complex to build.
I for example like Titans being massive. It fits lore which describes them as all-destroying god machines.
Their complexity alone also hardly justifies their low rate of production. By making only one Emperor class titan I think that it's enough to streamline the process of making more of them. Knowing that tech-priests are walking computers, it's reasonable to assume that all information on how to make them should be gathered from only one prototype. Also, tech-priests see them as avatars of Omnissiah due to machines complexity and power. Due to that, I think there should be no idealogic or religious reasons why all data stored in their memory HHDs wouldn't be used to mass produce them.
Ernestas wrote: Such constructs would be simply too small to justify their rarity. Emperor class titans should be an extreme resource and time drain due to their rarity on a battlefields. If that isn't the case, then why they are so rare on a battlefield?]
Deadshot wrote: 60m? Emperors? Nay. Try 150+. 60 for Warlords as a rough estimate is the usual figure.
Emperor Titans are just too complex, difficult to build and expensive to mass produce. Even Warhounds are massively expensive and difficult to build more than two or three at a time.
this. I thnk you are thinking a size down if you think the largest titn is only 60m
That is quite the opposite of what I said. I said the ballpark figure for Warlord Titans is around 60m. Who are no where near the largest.
Lexicanum wrote: The superheavy Battle Titans called Emperor Titans are subdivided into two known classes, the "Imperator"-class Titan
and "Warmonger"-class Titan
. Of these, the "Imperator"-class Emperor Titan is a general-purpose assault platform, whereas the "Warmonger"-class Emperor Titan is a dedicated fire-support unit with advanced fire control and targeting systems. Both are extremely powerful weapon systems and are often unmatched by an enemy force on any battlefield where they are deployed. They are loaded to the brim with pre-installed weapons, and their mounts can handle Titan weapons too big for even Battle Titans (they do not carry any of the close-combat weapons, as their sole focus is on extreme firepower). Emperor Titans are very rare, and can crush many weaker war engines. This type of Titan has legs so large they can house a full company of Adeptus Mechanicus
 orImperial Guard
 troops for defence and assault assistance. These Titans can stand up to 150 meters (approximately 400 feet) tall
Deadshot wrote: 60m? Emperors? Nay. Try 150+. 60 for Warlords as a rough estimate is the usual figure.
Emperor Titans are just too complex, difficult to build and expensive to mass produce. Even Warhounds are massively expensive and difficult to build more than two or three at a time.
this. I thnk you are thinking a size down if you think the largest titn is only 60m
That is quite the opposite of what I said. I said the ballpark figure for Warlord Titans is around 60m. Who are no where near the largest.
Lexicanum wrote: The superheavy Battle Titans called Emperor Titans are subdivided into two known classes, the "Imperator"-class Titan
and "Warmonger"-class Titan
. Of these, the "Imperator"-class Emperor Titan is a general-purpose assault platform, whereas the "Warmonger"-class Emperor Titan is a dedicated fire-support unit with advanced fire control and targeting systems. Both are extremely powerful weapon systems and are often unmatched by an enemy force on any battlefield where they are deployed. They are loaded to the brim with pre-installed weapons, and their mounts can handle Titan weapons too big for even Battle Titans (they do not carry any of the close-combat weapons, as their sole focus is on extreme firepower). Emperor Titans are very rare, and can crush many weaker war engines. This type of Titan has legs so large they can house a full company of Adeptus Mechanicus
 orImperial Guard
 troops for defence and assault assistance. These Titans can stand up to 150 meters (approximately 400 feet) tall
i think you are misinterpreting what I have said. I'm saying that the warlord Titan (which I know and have known for a very long time) is the second largest Titan and would be about 60m. The imperator or Emperor class Titan would be around 100-150m
Anyone with an old copy of epic (or photoshop skills) can find the supposed size of an Imperator, or any size titan. The figure is about the size of a 28mm Dreadnought. How many space marine figures standing on top each other does it take to equal it's height? Done. You can't really use current GW fluff, as it's been constantly trying to outdo itself since about 2000.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Even in this art, you can see a single trooper at the foot of the Imperator's right leg, and that's actually a larger scale discrepancy than an Epic fig versus the Imperator model.
Ernestas wrote: Such constructs would be simply too small to justify their rarity. Emperor class titans should be an extreme resource and time drain due to their rarity on a battlefields. If that isn't the case, then why they are so rare on a battlefield?]
Yes, this is a main issue with adeptus mechanicus. Remove that and humanity will instantly goes to new golden age of technology. Even though, fabricator generals could alone possess entire knowledge needed to construct Emperor class titan, removing all restrictions of complexity by simply reproducing that it's known.
Ah, those cartoonish pictures of warhammer. I never liked that kind of artwork and as I said, I dislike GW's descriptions on titans sizes. I personally prefer them to be at skyscrapers levels.
As a proud owner of an Epic Imperator Titan, which I am in the process of painting now, in fact, hopefully I can help out.
I've got a Space Marine glued to the scenic base I've created to give a sense of scale... assuming the space marine is about 2 meters, I'd estimate the Emperor's total height at 70 - 80 meters tall, absolute maximum.
I am just eyeballing it, however, which is perhaps irresponsible of me in a thread that seems to be about to boil over in nerd rage regarding the subject
AegisGrimm wrote: Anyone with an old copy of epic (or photoshop skills) can find the supposed size of an Imperator, or any size titan. The figure is about the size of a 28mm Dreadnought. How many space marine figures standing on top each other does it take to equal it's height? Done. You can't really use current GW fluff, as it's been constantly trying to outdo itself since about 2000.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Even in this art, you can see a single trooper at the foot of the Imperator's right leg, and that's actually a larger scale discrepancy than an Epic fig versus the Imperator model.
Assuming that guy is about 6ft, that makes the leg roughly 60 feet. And it appears to comprise roughly 1/3 of the height.
The fact that they are apparently reasonably rare would seem to disagree with you.
You can disagree all you want, but just like your idea that they should be a kilometer tall, you're not backed up by anything official here.
Rarity actually supports my argument that they are very costly to manufacture.
I can back it up with other sources describing their power or actions which would certainly increase their size beyond of GW's limitations. As I said before, I dislike GW's representation of them and because of that, I ignore their opinion on that matter.
Im just going to keep buying leman russes....
honestly i dont think the emperor titan looks good on the board, at least from the scratch built pictures shown, ( they are very nice scratch built models)
but it looks like a fantasy castle with big legs... id take a warhound titan any day over the larger titans, the larger tiatns seem to big for their own good...
Xenocidal Maniac wrote: As a proud owner of an Epic Imperator Titan, which I am in the process of painting now, in fact, hopefully I can help out.
I've got a Space Marine glued to the scenic base I've created to give a sense of scale... assuming the space marine is about 2 meters, I'd estimate the Emperor's total height at 70 - 80 meters tall, absolute maximum.
I am just eyeballing it, however, which is perhaps irresponsible of me in a thread that seems to be about to boil over in nerd rage regarding the subject
The Epic Imperator Titan is actually on a different scale than the rest of Epic for "dollar dollar bill" purposes. Whereas the rest of Epic is on a scale of say 1/350th the Imperator is on a scale of say 1/700th. How no one has mentioned this is beyond me.
You can look the Epic Imperator Titan scale up and you'll find it to be true. Literally everywhere in the fluff mentions Imperators being 150 meters tall except Goto's.
And a Space marine would be closer to 3 meters given the current fluff.
Void__Dragon wrote: Space Marines are only three meters tall in the funny world of Dan Abnett (Maybe, I've never seen that quote myself).
Everywhere else places them at closer to 7-8.
Are you saying you don't like Dan Abnett fluff.
Where I come from them's fighting words.
But seriously the average space marine height 8' is about 2.5 meters.
C: CSM is the only one canon enough to take into account, but then again it is the only codex I know of that actually states the height as an exact figure of seven or eight.
Xenocidal Maniac wrote: As a proud owner of an Epic Imperator Titan, which I am in the process of painting now, in fact, hopefully I can help out.
I've got a Space Marine glued to the scenic base I've created to give a sense of scale... assuming the space marine is about 2 meters, I'd estimate the Emperor's total height at 70 - 80 meters tall, absolute maximum.
I am just eyeballing it, however, which is perhaps irresponsible of me in a thread that seems to be about to boil over in nerd rage regarding the subject
The Epic Imperator Titan is actually on a different scale than the rest of Epic for "dollar dollar bill" purposes. Whereas the rest of Epic is on a scale of say 1/350th the Imperator is on a scale of say 1/700th. How no one has mentioned this is beyond me.
You can look the Epic Imperator Titan scale up and you'll find it to be true. Literally everywhere in the fluff mentions Imperators being 150 meters tall except Goto's.
And a Space marine would be closer to 3 meters given the current fluff.
1) No one has mentioned it because it's probably not true. Please cite any authoritative source that says that the Epic Emperor Titan is of a different scale than the other models. I googled it as you suggested, and didn't find anything on the subject. The model looks exactly the same scale as any artwork of the Emperor that I've ever seen. A couple of Epic models are out of scale (almost all of them flyers) but I have NEVER heard of the Emperor being out of scale, and I actually play the game.
2) What fluff? Are you talking Black Library? I don't even read that Jr. High School level crap, but from what I do know of it, everything is so inconsistent between authors that I don't think any BL "fluff" should be recognized as canon.
3) Do you understand that 3 meters = about 9.5 feet? I've never seen Space Marines depicted as over the 7'-8' range... hence, closer to two meters.
I think I am about dead on in my assessment... I know we all want our little toys to be the most awesome things in the universe, but, pretty much nothing supports the idea of an Emperor class titan being in the 150 meter range.
The "actual" size of a fictional war machine that exists in a fictional universe is the last thing I want to get in an argument over, so, you know, if you want to pretend they're a million miles tall, that's fine by me, too. But nothing official supports that.
Xenocidal Maniac wrote: As a proud owner of an Epic Imperator Titan, which I am in the process of painting now, in fact, hopefully I can help out.
I've got a Space Marine glued to the scenic base I've created to give a sense of scale... assuming the space marine is about 2 meters, I'd estimate the Emperor's total height at 70 - 80 meters tall, absolute maximum.
I am just eyeballing it, however, which is perhaps irresponsible of me in a thread that seems to be about to boil over in nerd rage regarding the subject
The Epic Imperator Titan is actually on a different scale than the rest of Epic for "dollar dollar bill" purposes. Whereas the rest of Epic is on a scale of say 1/350th the Imperator is on a scale of say 1/700th. How no one has mentioned this is beyond me.
You can look the Epic Imperator Titan scale up and you'll find it to be true. Literally everywhere in the fluff mentions Imperators being 150 meters tall except Goto's.
And a Space marine would be closer to 3 meters given the current fluff.
1) No one has mentioned it because it's probably not true. Please cite any authoritative source that says that the Epic Emperor Titan is of a different scale than the other models. I googled it as you suggested, and didn't find anything on the subject. The model looks exactly the same scale as any artwork of the Emperor that I've ever seen. A couple of Epic models are out of scale (almost all of them flyers) but I have NEVER heard of the Emperor being out of scale, and I actually play the game.
2) What fluff? Are you talking Black Library? I don't even read that Jr. High School level crap, but from what I do know of it, everything is so inconsistent between authors that I don't think any BL "fluff" should be recognized as canon.
3) Do you understand that 3 meters = about 9.5 feet? I've never seen Space Marines depicted as over the 7'-8' range... hence, closer to two meters.
I think I am about dead on in my assessment... I know we all want our little toys to be the most awesome things in the universe, but, pretty much nothing supports the idea of an Emperor class titan being in the 150 meter range.
The "actual" size of a fictional war machine that exists in a fictional universe is the last thing I want to get in an argument over, so, you know, if you want to pretend they're a million miles tall, that's fine by me, too. But nothing official supports that.
1. Doesn't take a genius to figure the Epic Imperator is out of scale. A single Epic Terminator can barely fit in the head where all the fluff describes the head as being as spacious as a large multi story living room. What we do know is there is a massive crew in the things head & in a Dan Abnett titanicus book the Chaos Imperator Abominus ( something like that just go to Lexicanum ) is directly stated to be 150 meters tall.
2. There are 10 foot tall marines & 15 foot tall primarchs w/ the average marine being 8 feet tall. They were changed from averaging 7 ftyears ago.
3.Yes I do.
You're the one who responded to a comment no even directed at you, but directed at the thread ,while arguing. That's a lie from what everyone here has seen. I just wanted to point out the scale issues in Epic.
In a level of DoW there was a Imperator dominating a massive level. The thing was a metal mountain with legs. But yes the typical Imperator is 150 meters tall.
Odd, I don't think I have ever heard of the Imperator model being out of scale with the rest of epic. That would make even the Epic artwork incorrect, not just the model.
Well the old Artwork is heavily stylized and probably shouldn't be taken as an accurate depiction of the events. All the scales are clearly a little wonky.
AegisGrimm wrote: Odd, I don't think I have ever heard of the Imperator model being out of scale with the rest of epic. That would make even the Epic artwork incorrect, not just the model.
No, the Epic Emperor model is not out of scale. The guy is just talking out of his a...
Remember, these things have to be carried inside normal space ships. Which are only 7.5-8 kilometers long at the most.
Add extra 700 meters and we have an agreement. Honestly, I don't see why you all are so hostile to my own personal imagination of them. Generally people have no problem for out of place overpowered psykers and warriors, but for some reason, titans height should be laughable compared to that they bring to the fight.
GW's canon policy is that everything labled 40k is equally canon. Even if the Emperor is displayed as the Swarmlord in disguise commanding a voltronning of six titan imperator titans with Draigo and St.Celestine as the yappy eight year old sidekicks who are kid tsundere for each other while the guy on the throne is just some Hobo he suckered who teams up with Aun'Va and Eldrad to fight Abaddon, Szarekh, Vect, and Gazghkull in a transforming disco battleship, deal with it.
Imperator Titans are roughly 60 meters tall. Helsreach mentions it and the datasheet has it at roughly 4 Warhounds high, which is 56 meters in-universe, since the Forge World books place the Warhound at 14 meters at rest. Anyone wanting 150+ meters of Imperators has a really distorted sense of scale IMO; it's not just the height, but the width and depth. At 60 meters it's still a 20-ish story building walking around.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Imperator Titans are roughly 60 meters tall. Helsreach mentions it and the datasheet has it at roughly 4 Warhounds high, which is 56 meters in-universe, since the Forge World books place the Warhound at 14 meters at rest. Anyone wanting 150+ meters of Imperators has a really distorted sense of scale IMO; it's not just the height, but the width and depth. At 60 meters it's still a 20-ish story building walking around.
They want it to be taller than the 100 meter tall king of the monsters, Godzilla, forgetting that Godzilla is king for a damn reason.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Imperator Titans are roughly 60 meters tall. Helsreach mentions it and the datasheet has it at roughly 4 Warhounds high, which is 56 meters in-universe, since the Forge World books place the Warhound at 14 meters at rest. Anyone wanting 150+ meters of Imperators has a really distorted sense of scale IMO; it's not just the height, but the width and depth. At 60 meters it's still a 20-ish story building walking around.
You're trying to tell me a Warhound 14m? I am sorry, but I honestly call BS. Everytime someone brings up this topic the titans get smaller whereas looking online tells me a Warhound is 25m and a Reaver is 40m, putting a Warlord at 60m. With the Imperator, being roughly twice the height in most fluff I have read, or at lwast described that way, puts them at 120ish.
Reaver titans are almost always depicted at 40m in height, counting their carapase weapon mounts.
The warlord is supposed to be about half again as tall as a reaver, so, anywhere from 52-60m depending on if you count the carapace weapon.
The imperator is supposed to be about twice as tall as the warlord, since the warlord titan from many books has to reach upwards with close combat weapons to stab into the belly of the imperator (iron warriors onimus). This would put Imperators at 105-120+ meters in height.
Add extra 700 meters and we have an agreement. Honestly, I don't see why you all are so hostile to my own personal imagination of them. Generally people have no problem for out of place overpowered psykers and warriors, but for some reason, titans height should be laughable compared to that they bring to the fight.
Its not that Ern, its more the pure physical limitations and basic physics that apply (even if it is a wGalaxy of Daemons and Psykers).
A Titan - say Emperor class, standing 1km tall would have to have inconceivable power/hydrolics/systems/strenght/materials to go that large.
Sure its 40k sci-fi but even GW inherently acknowledge limitations.
Even within the ridiculous GW fluff sphere they state that *sic* "the only land based creatures/constructions that can survive on a normal gravity world" are Hierophants (specific Nid constructs) and Ork Squiggoths (which are a law unto themselves anyway, since they're Orkoid!).
A 1km Titan simply does not exist in what fluff I have read.
If you can back it up with "cannon" / source material, fair enough.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Imperator Titans are roughly 60 meters tall. Helsreach mentions it and the datasheet has it at roughly 4 Warhounds high, which is 56 meters in-universe, since the Forge World books place the Warhound at 14 meters at rest. Anyone wanting 150+ meters of Imperators has a really distorted sense of scale IMO; it's not just the height, but the width and depth. At 60 meters it's still a 20-ish story building walking around.
They want it to be taller than the 100 meter tall king of the monsters, Godzilla, forgetting that Godzilla is king for a damn reason.
Well an imperator is generally shown to be over 100 meters tall. Speaking off the subject the new Godzilla from the new film is going to be at least 150 meters tall (in all likelihood over 200 meters tall). The director mentioned experimenting with Godzilla being a walking mountain but gradually went down. I'm guessing at this using the language like "by far" and the ability to even hide.
To those curious (I'm just trying to make conversation don't delete this)
http://www.totalfilm.com/features/godzilla-2014-10-things-we-learned-at-comic-con-2013
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Imperator Titans are roughly 60 meters tall. Helsreach mentions it and the datasheet has it at roughly 4 Warhounds high, which is 56 meters in-universe, since the Forge World books place the Warhound at 14 meters at rest. Anyone wanting 150+ meters of Imperators has a really distorted sense of scale IMO; it's not just the height, but the width and depth. At 60 meters it's still a 20-ish story building walking around.
You're trying to tell me a Warhound 14m? I am sorry, but I honestly call BS. Everytime someone brings up this topic the titans get smaller whereas looking online tells me a Warhound is 25m and a Reaver is 40m, putting a Warlord at 60m. With the Imperator, being roughly twice the height in most fluff I have read, or at lwast described that way, puts them at 120ish.
I'm not trying to tell you anything, ForgeWorld (you know, the company that makes the friggin' model) is. It's not that Titans keep "getting smaller", it's that people have really twisted ideas of proportions.
It's also that people refuse to accept what Games Workshop has said and published about them. I backed my claim up with two GW sources and you're refuting it with "I saw something else on the Internet!"? Good job. Well played.
Imperial Armour 7 puts a Reaver Titan at 22.3 meters tall, which means that the notion of a Warhound being 25 meters tall is massively flawed. I'm not sure where you've been looking online, but said place(s) is just massively, irrefutably wrong on all accounts.
As a last nail in the coffin, "False Gods" lists the Dies Irae as being 43 meters tall, which may or may not be due to not having a cathedral dedicated to the Emperor, as it was a pre-Heresy Imperator Titan. At any rate, Imperators are consistently described as being around 60 meters or lower except in artwork where the artist either overdoes it or has no clue how big the Titan is supposed to be.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Imperator Titans are roughly 60 meters tall. Helsreach mentions it and the datasheet has it at roughly 4 Warhounds high, which is 56 meters in-universe, since the Forge World books place the Warhound at 14 meters at rest. Anyone wanting 150+ meters of Imperators has a really distorted sense of scale IMO; it's not just the height, but the width and depth. At 60 meters it's still a 20-ish story building walking around.
You're trying to tell me a Warhound 14m? I am sorry, but I honestly call BS. Everytime someone brings up this topic the titans get smaller whereas looking online tells me a Warhound is 25m and a Reaver is 40m, putting a Warlord at 60m. With the Imperator, being roughly twice the height in most fluff I have read, or at lwast described that way, puts them at 120ish.
I'm not trying to tell you anything, ForgeWorld (you know, the company that makes the friggin' model) is. It's not that Titans keep "getting smaller", it's that people have really twisted ideas of proportions.
It's also that people refuse to accept what Games Workshop has said and published about them. I backed my claim up with two GW sources and you're refuting it with "I saw something else on the Internet!"? Good job. Well played.
Imperial Armour 7 puts a Reaver Titan at 22.3 meters tall, which means that the notion of a Warhound being 25 meters tall is massively flawed. I'm not sure where you've been looking online, but said place(s) is just massively, irrefutably wrong on all accounts.
As a last nail in the coffin, "False Gods" lists the Dies Irae as being 43 meters tall, which may or may not be due to not having a cathedral dedicated to the Emperor, as it was a pre-Heresy Imperator Titan. At any rate, Imperators are consistently described as being around 60 meters or lower except in artwork where the artist either overdoes it or has no clue how big the Titan is supposed to be.
/endrant
pretty sure your right, 25m is mega huge for a warhound. If you look at the human against the warhound you see that it is about 14-15m
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Imperator Titans are roughly 60 meters tall. Helsreach mentions it and the datasheet has it at roughly 4 Warhounds high, which is 56 meters in-universe, since the Forge World books place the Warhound at 14 meters at rest. Anyone wanting 150+ meters of Imperators has a really distorted sense of scale IMO; it's not just the height, but the width and depth. At 60 meters it's still a 20-ish story building walking around.
You're trying to tell me a Warhound 14m? I am sorry, but I honestly call BS. Everytime someone brings up this topic the titans get smaller whereas looking online tells me a Warhound is 25m and a Reaver is 40m, putting a Warlord at 60m. With the Imperator, being roughly twice the height in most fluff I have read, or at lwast described that way, puts them at 120ish.
I'm not trying to tell you anything, ForgeWorld (you know, the company that makes the friggin' model) is. It's not that Titans keep "getting smaller", it's that people have really twisted ideas of proportions.
It's also that people refuse to accept what Games Workshop has said and published about them. I backed my claim up with two GW sources and you're refuting it with "I saw something else on the Internet!"? Good job. Well played.
Imperial Armour 7 puts a Reaver Titan at 22.3 meters tall, which means that the notion of a Warhound being 25 meters tall is massively flawed. I'm not sure where you've been looking online, but said place(s) is just massively, irrefutably wrong on all accounts.
As a last nail in the coffin, "False Gods" lists the Dies Irae as being 43 meters tall, which may or may not be due to not having a cathedral dedicated to the Emperor, as it was a pre-Heresy Imperator Titan. At any rate, Imperators are consistently described as being around 60 meters or lower except in artwork where the artist either overdoes it or has no clue how big the Titan is supposed to be.
/endrant
pretty sure your right, 25m is mega huge for a warhound. If you look at the human against the warhound you see that it is about 14-15m
I know, right? It's almost as if it says so in the fluff!
I do not provide any sources, because they are difficult to come by. I remember that there is a good quote in that book or another, but to get it, I will be forced to read through several chapters of book in order to find it. Then that? Those quotes will not be straightforward numbers as GW gives. As I said, I dislike them, I want titans to be massive in size, because that would explain even GW's own descriptions of them.
For example, Emperor class titans have 12 voids shields. That amount of protection certainly would require a power plant just to keep it running. Also, energy based weapons and entire titan itself uses up immense amount of power. All of this results in another question, how in 60 metres tall machine can possess an armored and well protected power plant in itself? Remember, they would be not out of place on top of planetary defence installation, meaning that their level of protection also in conventional armor should be immense, further supporting my argument of their need to have huge plasma reactors inside of them.
Titanicus novel has a popular quote describing conventional warfare as ''ants wars''. If we would want to take that quote as legitimate then we should admit that titans must be higher than that.
Also, it remains unexplained why titans are so rare and difficult to manufacture if they are so small.
There is an incident in ''Titanicus" of warlord titan decisively destroying around 55 of arch-enemy's vehicles after being ambushed. As I said, their power level scaling does not match their height scaling.
Its not that Ern, its more the pure physical limitations and basic physics that apply (even if it is a wGalaxy of Daemons and Psykers).
The matter is that it's double standards who are being applied here. W30k rules of power have very little in common of w40k setting. Primarchs and Emperor have unexplained power levels and no-one seems to care about it. On the other hand, people find hard to suspend their disbelief of titan's size. Rules are being broke in both cases. Physics are often being ignored or are inaccurate in w40k. I for example, can suspend my disbelief in that area and it doesn't bother me at all. I'm more concerned about inconsistency of warhammer's universe and double standards than of potential physics limitations.
Titans are rare because they're incredibly advanced; as you say yourself, Imperators have immense void shield banks. The tech required to power the void shields is extremely time-consuming to create. The weapons are also incredibly complicated.
You're also underestimating just how high 60 meters is. Seriously, it's friggin' high.
I do understand how high it is. I think that I posted video showing how high are those sizes and compared titans to skycrapers sizes. Even though, I reduced height of them several times already, I still think that titans should be a lot larger than they currently are.
About advance technology.
Tech-priests are a different kind of scientists than us. They do not need to specialize in something. High-ranking tech priest's CPU with HDD or in other words, brain, can absorb any amount of knowledge in an instant. Combine it with advanced machinery and immense industrial output of a forge world and you got yourself a question. How much they can streamline a process of creating titans and how many at a time a forge world can manufacture them? If problem lies in complexity of titans, then it's only a matter of time and expensive materials, because as I said, an established forge world have an immense manufacturing capabilities. Also, we can say that price of them is unimportant to adeptus mechanicus. Production of extremely complex machinery is a worthy cause in itself for them. In addition we all know that these tech-priest are incredibly rich and powerful, so I'm guessing that funds are not a problem at all here. Due to that, all materials are bought in great quantities. Keep in mind, that they hold monopoly on technology in Imperium and due to that, they will also have monopoly on all kinds of materials needed for high-tech industry.
So, lets say only problem of mass-producing these unstoppable Omnissiah's avatars lies in time required to produce various parts. If parts can be manufactured separately then were should be millions of those separate parts being constructed at any given time. Due to that, all that's left is to assemble titan from unlimited pool of separate parts. Having titans construction blueprints and experience in assembling titans that time should decrease to a minimum. In the end, titans usefulness is unquestionable in a battlefield. There is no reason not to produce them in a greatest quantity possible. Due to that, titans forges should be able to make them a lot quicker than it's now seen on a battlefield. Seeing that opposite is true, then it implies to me that it's not only complexity of machinery that slows production down, but also extreme amounts of material they have to work with in order to create a titan which in turn, increases time needed to produce them even more.
Btw: technology used in Emperor class titan is a same that is used and in other titans, but only utilized on a massive scale. At least, it's that lexicanum says.
I don't believe Titans are produced any more. The AdMech is, largely, sliding backwards from its pre-Heresy days, never mind its accomplishments during the Golden Age.
Fitting a nuclear reactor into something the size of a Titan isn't much of a problem, really. Shoot, we put them in Titan-sized vessels in the modern era; add 30,000 years of development, and you end up with a nuclear reactor that fits into a 5'x5' room that can power a major metropolis.
The nuclear subs of the modern era, while being much longer than most Titans, are about as big around as one of their legs, so the total mass of our nuclear subs doesn't quite measure up. If we can shove a nuclear reactor into one of those, something on the scale of a Titan is not that hard.
Ernestas wrote: Seeing that opposite is true, then it implies to me that it's not only complexity of machinery that slows production down, but also extreme amounts of material they have to work with in order to create a titan which in turn, increases time needed to produce them even more.
Or simply that there is a line in their 'Holy' instruction manual that says that they are only allowed to work on one Titan at a time.
You're making an awful lot of assumptions about time and material required to build a fictional machine in a fictional scifi setting. How long, exactly, does it take to smelt Adamantium, Armaplas and Ceramite? And how resource intensive is it? How long does it take to assemble a Titan's reactor, when you factor in both actual production time and all the stopping and praying to the Machine God bits of the process?
They don't mass-produce titans, because titans are their masterpiece works. Each one is an individual work of art, craft, and devotion to the Machine God. And that presumably slows down the build process.
They don't have to be a kilometre tall to take a long time to build. Particularly when they are being built by people who don't completely understand what they are doing, and who think that applying scented oil and an incantation are just as effective at fixing a mechanical problem as applying a spanner.
You are making assumptions too. We both do not have direct quotes or any clue of adeptus mechanicus being restricted in creating those awesome constructs. Also, tech-priests are scientists almost unique in this galaxy. Highest of them probably have knowledge far beyond any mortal being and are more in league with deamons than mortals. They struggle to understand simplest of things while are able to create and completely master extremely complex technologies. Very good example is from audio book, ''Red and black". An adeptus mechanicus research lab was tasked of creating or perfecting cloning technology. Unfortunately, warp storms ensured that all data was lost for 2000 years, but even after that, all data created prior warp-storms was far beyond that adeptus mechanicus had. They managed to perfect cloning technologies and in manipulating human genes they created a perfect warrior race and all this was done by adeptus mechanicus sanctioned priests. In the end, world was looted and sacked by adeptus mechanicus in order to steal all of its high-tech obviously. I think that most interesting thing isn't that adeptus mechanicus created technologies far beyond that they themselves possess, but that cloning technologies are already quite well refined in Imperium. In audio book it was said that that technology is lost to Imperium, meaning that tech-priests in question didn't had required knowledge to clone. On the other hand, we know that Imperium uses sanctioned cloning technologies, Krieg is a perfect example of how reliable and refined that technology is. Hence, adeptus mechanicus had this technology before even researching it, but those tech-priest are guarding it so jealausly that they themselves cannot know that they know, that is lost and that's not. A very good example is baneblade. Technology in fact isn't so complex to justify their rarity. Baneblades could be manufactured in far, far greater numbers than they are now. Problem is, Mars is a sole manufacturer of them in an entire galaxy! That is just one example how protective priests are of their knowledge. Forge worlds have varying degrees of their technological capabilities. Ryza world knows a lot more about plasma than Mars do, while Graia forge world was about to introduce a completely new grenade launcher weapon pattern called- vengeance launcher.
Titans are being manufactured across Imperium and their knowledge cannot degrade due to that. There was some clues in ''Mechanicus" novel that titans are being manufactured using blueprints and schematics, but it might be quite possible that all titans or more powerful ones are hand-crafted. Anyways, their knowledge could not have possibly degraded from humans second golden age. Tech-priests might be extremely protective of their knowledge, but they certainly do not forget anything. Everything is recorded and protected. Protected in such levels that they have technologies lost and buried in their vast data storages, waiting only to be rediscovered again. Only way for Imperium to loose its technology is with deaths of influential tech-priests who possess that knowledge.
In conclusion, wide-spread creation of titans ensured that Imperium's knowledge of Titans creation process have not degraded over time. Also, there are no reason why something would have been changed from over time. Adeptus mechanicus are strong traditionalists and if any change would occur on how titans are being manufactured then it would be only a positive change.
Btw: In novel "Dark mechanicus" tech priest from Ryza forge world drops a clue for this theory. Also, keep in mind that after action reports from dark crusade or soulstorm games have hints of xeno tech being smuggled by Imperium's warlords to adeptus mechanicus, meaning that they have interests in their technology. I wouldn't be surprised if their technology will be copied or in other words "sanctioned" and produced by them as their own after a hundred years or so.
Thing is, applying real-world common sense techniques such as production lines to the Admech doesn't necessarily work. It's pefectly possible that the STC for, say, a Baneblade is commonly available, but the STC for a baneblade production line has been lost. So they're handcrafted.
And when your quality control system doesn't necessarily take into account how well your handcrafted components physically fit together, but how spiritually pure they are when you hammer runes on them an oil them with Omnissiah-knows-what-but-it's-a-bit-corrosive rather than WD-40, you end up having to make many, many more of each component to get a working example.
And a lot of data has been lost. Remember that 10,000 years ago the Admech was involved in a particularily nasty civil war, with computer viruses (some of which might have been Daemonic) rampaging through their data stacks. This was referred to as "hash code" in Mechanicum, I think.
And the oldest Technomagi have vast, unlimited amounts of knowledge. But generally they're absolutely insane.
So making something as complex as a titan even once is something of a miracle in itself.
People usually underestimates adeptus mechanicus and with it also whole Imperium. The matter is, they survived 10.000 years under constant and brutal warfare in all ways possible. Even more, they had survived even massive civil wars among themselves during that time. We on the other hand, didn't had anything similar in our history to be so stable under such great pressure. Say whatever you wish, but Imperium and adeptus mechanicus gets a lot of things right and that's not a speculation, it's a fact. If it would be otherwise, they would have fallen long time ago.
They get by. They don't get a lot of stuff "right", they get a lot of stuff "good enough". What they do get right is the simple stuff, like a lasgun, a bolter, and a chainsword. This stuff, though, is primitive compared to things like Titans or teleportariums or creating augmetics that don't require them to shove a tube up your nose.
In ''Titanicus" titan's crews was shown as fiercely competent. Titans itself show no sign of being inferior. No xenos race can manufacture them at vastly greater rates than adeptus mechanicus can. Even beloved Tau's efforts to create titans are far from achieving success. So, I will say that they got a lot of things right. Yes, they have flaws like we are discussing now, but fact that they are still standing means that Imperium is run well and adeptus mechanicus is still competent in a lot of areas. You can point out at their poor understanding of ''basic'' concepts of technology, while I can point out at enginseers who are famous for their improvisation and skill with technology. You might dislike their tradition while I can point out that thing called ''innovation and progress" usually ends up in heresy and chaos. You point out religion, I say that it holds Imperium together. It helps men to find hope and strength in grimness of days. It unites them in this vast galaxy and guide them towards the light in the mists of darkness.
Competence of adeptus mechanicus varies greatly across forge worlds. Some will be better at one thing, while others at other. Advance technology is not beyond their understanding, it's just beyond reach of normal men. Magos and other high ranking tech-priests are silently doing their research for themselves as it was seen in soul drinkers and mechanicus novels. Same matter is and with terminator armor. You cannot just ask for mass-production of them. You have to have contacts, power, money and reputation with them in order to have them built it for you.
Best proof that tech-priest do not share their most advance knowledge with Imperium is in their fleet. It's just superior that Imperium can get from them. Or even more extreme example- Ark Mechanicus.
Btw: At least no foul xenos can steal high-tech from tech priests.
And this is why I love the Eldar. No such crazy fluff as the Adeptus Mechanicus.
I know, I know...I'm kidding!!! Geesh!
But in all honestly I do like the Eldar titans better, and they make more practical sense (even though I do agree the Empire isn't practical) as a weapon system.
I also love the overall design of the Warlord Titan but find the Emperor/Imperator/Umpire-a-tater...whatever...to be very unpleasing. I know it hasn't had the 'updates' of artwork the others have had, and perhaps that is the problem. Also the overall unwieldiness of something the size of an Imperator doesn't appeal to me, I think the largest I'd ever field would be a Warlord.
It's a matter of ideology. Tau and eldar think alike hence, they prefer speed and firepower while Imperium thinks that endurance and firepower is a better option. While this generalisation is true only in vague sense, I cannot say that Imperium is wrong in creating such gargantuos machines. Those titans serve in active military service for at least hundreds of years and there is little that can oppose them. Only extreme conflicts like black crusades or that was seen in ''Titanicus" can thin their ranks properly.
Btw: Eldars do not try to endure the bullet, they try to outsmart it.
also love the overall design of the Warlord Titan but find the Emperor/Imperator/Umpire-a-tater...whatever...to be very unpleasing. I know it hasn't had the 'updates' of artwork the others have had, and perhaps that is the problem. Also the overall unwieldiness of something the size of an Imperator doesn't appeal to me, I think the largest I'd ever field would be a Warlord.
Here's an image I found once of a player's version of an Imperator if it were updated like the current Epic Warlord style, I always thought it was pretty cool because it better fits the current Imperial aesthetic:
Plus I have always liked this comparison photo for the titan sizes. It's all older Epic titans, but the Imperator model looks plenty large enough.
Ernestas wrote: Seeing that opposite is true, then it implies to me that it's not only complexity of machinery that slows production down, but also extreme amounts of material they have to work with in order to create a titan which in turn, increases time needed to produce them even more.
Suppose that the only way to create a frame strong enough for an Imperator is to let parts of the frame be submerged in some sort of strengthening liquid or a similar process that can't be hurried up. Complexity does not have to mean it's beyond the understanding of those performing it, only that it takes time because you have to get everything right.
Plus, the Machine Spirits of Titans are rather powerful. It probably takes a while to create those.
Ratius wrote: Agreed never heard of a Giga Gargant. But who knows with Orks.
Emp VS Mega Gargant (largest Gargant variant I have seen)
The question has to be asked, who let this Titan crew pass their test? You'd expect the orks to fire a bit wild in all the excitement but, blimey...are they all drunk?
Ernestas wrote: Seeing that opposite is true, then it implies to me that it's not only complexity of machinery that slows production down, but also extreme amounts of material they have to work with in order to create a titan which in turn, increases time needed to produce them even more.
Suppose that the only way to create a frame strong enough for an Imperator is to let parts of the frame be submerged in some sort of strengthening liquid or a similar process that can't be hurried up. Complexity does not have to mean it's beyond the understanding of those performing it, only that it takes time because you have to get everything right.
Plus, the Machine Spirits of Titans are rather powerful. It probably takes a while to create those.
Or maybe impregnation process can be accelerated by psychic powers? There is even a separate technology tree in warhammer universe, called techno-sorcery. Knowing sorcery and that warp-infusion does, I wouldn't be surprised if laws of physic would be twisted to better serve machine's intentended purpose. In any way, we cannot speculate how titans are created. My theory of mass production of them works only then their cost is relativelly low which supports my argument that titans have to be massive due to their low rarity. Also, certain, time-consuming things can be bypassed simply by doing a lot of same thing. If for example you need to strengthen hull with chemicals, then you can stockpile needed impregnated material in advance.
Tho we may not be able to agree on the height of the Imperitor, can we at least all agree that the cathedral on its back / shoulders was a dumb ascetic choice?
I wonder how drunk they were when they made that choice...
...Hey, this Chimay is pretty awesome, let's honor the monks that made it by putting their abby on the back of our most powerful walking war machine...
The cathedral spires allow for four cannons to provide forward and lateral fire-zones. I'm sure there's probably 2 to 4 cannons pointing directly behind the Titan from towers we can't see.
This is 360* fields of fire, visiting devastation on anyone dumb enough to continue marching towards it.
Emperor class titans are devastating in itself for anyone dumb enough to try to approach them. Personally, I dislike cathedrals on top of him and would prefer different aesthetic design. Due to that, idea of hand-crafting them seems very appealing to me. It could mean, that this design is unique creation of tech-priest or team of them. Then there could be many more differently looking titans and that would open more possibilities in table-top and in legitimate art design.
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