This list did so well at a local tournament I played in yesterday that people were trying to get the TO to ban it from the next one. More than one comment along the lines of "impossible to beat" or "utterly broken" was muttered. I'm a very cordial and friendly player normally, but the attitude I was getting from the other competitive players at this tournament made me savor every last drop of nerd rage. 3 games vs Space Marines, Space Wolves, and Tau (all with lists that would be decent vs most, although they lacked the mobility or special shenanigans that could really bruise me) later and I took 1st and some sweet store credit.

Here's the list:
-Shadowsun
-Farsight

-Crisis Bodyguard 7x
--Crisis 3x (PR+PR+TL)
--Crisis (MP+CIB+TL)
--Crisis (MP+MP+TL)
--Crisis (FB+FB+TL)
--Crisis (SS+CC+PTE+VRT+PR+DC)
--11x Gun Drones

-Kroot 10x
-Kroot 10x
-Kroot 10x

-Hammerhead (Long Strike+RG+SMS+DP)

-Allies: Blood Angels
--Librarian (Jump Pack+Shield of Sanguinus+Blood Lance)
--Assault Squad (2x MG)
--Assault Squad (No Jump Packs+2x MG)
---Drop Pod

So this list is obviously based around the Puretide Council. They have stealth and shrouding, infiltrate, hit and run, swom protector, ignore cover, twin linked (shooting phase only), and tank hunter/monster hunter/stubborn from the PTE. With target locks, they can divide their fire perfectly to handle any situation in the most efficient manner possible. 14 rapid firing plasma shots, 4 fusion shots, 9 missiles, 22 pulse rifles. All of these combine to make a unit that hits like a truck and is tough as nails. With overwatch and Farsight, the Puretide Council is hard to assault as well. A scary unit, and one that plays a lot of psychological games on your opponent.

The kroot are cheap, mobile (with infiltrate and outflank) scoring that can lay down effective auxiliary fire when they need to. Long Strike has the really really high 46% chance of penning AV14 on any given shot with AP1, important considering multiple landraiders can be relatively effective against the Puretide Council.

The blood angels allies are for several reasons. First, it adds some tough, combat squadable troops with accurate, deep striking melta guns. Second, it adds some minor assault elements to threaten other shooting armies (like IG). Third, and most importantly, it adds the power Shield of Sanguinius to the list. Shield of Sanguinius gives any unit (friend or foe) a 5+ cover save during the opponent's shooting phase. With Stealth and Shrouded, this gives the Puretide Council a 2+ cover save even if they don't go first. This allows that big, expensive, ridiculously powerful unit to deploy in the face of virtually any alpha strike, in prime position to rapid fire on turn 1/2, just leaving a trail of missile pod/support suits behind to stay within 6'' of the librarian (who hides with the jump marines, who also provide counter assault potential). The only other way to obtain this is with an Ork Big Mek's KFF, I decided on Blood Angels because I felt they added greater utility to the army. I thought it was worth a try, and this tournament was going to be proof of concept.

Boy was this concept proven. The 2+ cover save let me play so aggressively, the unit was at 100% effectiveness every turn. The Drop Pod marines gave me a really good, flexible response on turn 1. The kroot did their job of holding objectives (helped because they are hardly worth shooting at, especially considering they just go to ground when threatened). Lemme know what you guys think!

I will assault your deathstar with my wraithknight.

And shoot the rest to death.

This is just an example.

Also BA is not battle brothers so I dont think you can use their rules.

 Marthike wrote:
I will assault your deathstar with my wraithknight.

And shoot the rest to death.

This is just an example.

Also BA is not battle brothers so I dont think you can use their rules.

you can if it says friend or foe.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Marthike wrote:
I will assault your deathstar with my wraithknight.

And shoot the rest to death.

This is just an example.

Also BA is not battle brothers so I dont think you can use their rules.

you can if it says friend or foe.

IS this in the FAQ because it doesn't in the codex.

Also why 2+ its 5+ with +1 +1 so its a 3+, am i missing something? Do you mean go to ground?

Well your going to have problems with flying MC..especially nurgle, you don't have any marker lights. GT level your going to play against better list and not to mention better players. It a nice list, but it's average at best.

 mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
Well your going to have problems with flying MC..especially nurgle, you don't have any marker lights. GT level your going to play against better list and not to mention better players. It a nice list, but it's average at best.

I was just about to mention flyers. Anyone who realise this is a deathstar list will deal with it like all other deathstar lists. Ignore your deathstar and go after the kroots, once your troops are gone then they can focuse your deathstar or just spread out and take all objectives.

I will assault your deathstar with my wraithknight.

And shoot the rest to death.

This is just an example.

Well, let's run the numbers. In one shooting phase, with monster hunter turned on, this unit will inflict 8.9 wounds on a Wraithknight. And then another 2.2 in the overwatch. And then another 1.6 in the combat. Then they will take 2.2 wounds in return, losing the combat but likely passing their leadership roll (or rolling at initiative 5 for sweeping advance in the worst case scenario). If, likely, they stay in combat, they will then hit and run, only failing on a 6. But yeah, Wraithknight is pretty decent vs this unit, forces quite a few rolls.

you can if it says friend or foe.

It says "any unit" in the codex and isn't mentioned in the FAQ, legal application.

Also why 2+ its 5+ with +1 +1 so its a 3+, am i missing something? Do you mean go to ground?

Stealth adds +1, shrouded adds +2. Thus, 5-1-2=2+

Well your going to have problems with flying MC..especially nurgle, you don't have any marker lights. GT level your going to play against better list and not to mention better players. It a nice list, but it's average at best.

I thought about AA in this list, but honestly the flyer scare is mostly overrated. Most flyers you can pretty safely ignore (Helldrakes being the exception). Armies that don't bring flyers come to the field at a good point advantage when you invest a lot into AA. Thus, I think the incidental AA (twin linked missile pods, auto hitting blood lance) will generally be sufficient. For FMC's, bringing them down with kroot (who can also form protective kroot loops) leaves them vulnerable to a LOT of monster hunting AP 1/2. Against toughness 6, they inflict 26.7 wounds, 16.6 of them making it through a 3+.

I was just about to mention flyers. Anyone who realise this is a deathstar list will deal with it like all other deathstar lists. Ignore your deathstar and go after the kroots, once your troops are gone then they can focuse your deathstar or just spread out and take all objectives.

The beauty of this deathstar, compared to others, is it's flexibility. Most deathstars you can feed a unit to, or draw to one side of the board, or ignore once it's outside of its transport. Not so here. With 3d6 assault move, it can't really be out maneuvered. Because it is ranged, it has a much larger threat area and cannot be really tied up. With target locks everything shoots at exactly what it needs to to be 100% effective. The kroot can outflank, so they usually start off the table. I'm normally 100% against Deathstars, but this one seems to break all the rules.

Good points though. You guys got any idea how I could improve this list? I'd like a rip tide for the added AA and , but I'm not sure what I'd take away for it.

well how many units can you kill? at most 1 unit per turn so your deathstar can kill 5 units, if I have tanks then you will take 1 turn to kill a tank then 1 turn to kill the unit inside and most competitive list spam MSU so in the end you would have barely killed enough to make a difference.

The current comeptitive army,
necron (wraith will most likely tie you down for the entire game, and flyer with troops inside which you can't kill unless you blow up the flyer, av13 so either 9" for melta or 1 per turn by your railgun)


eldar (serpent spam, 4+ cover and av 12, wraithknights nuff said)
Tau (Shooting 150 S 5 and lots more missle spam, or 125 missiles per turn)
Daemon (4 FMC, 1 MC, fast hounds)

Less competitive lists.
Chaos space marine (heldrake, nurgle spawn, nurgle marines OR spam of fearless cultists.)
Ravenwing (high mobility, you have to chase them down or they also have alot of shooting)
GK (dreadknights, stormraven, purifer spam)
Orks (spam of bodies so you dont have enough gun to kill them all)
Bugs (9x T6 bodies, 4 MC 2 FMC)

the most competitive lists will deal with your army easily, the less competitive lists will have some trouble but if they are not stupid and just focuses everthing on your deathstar then they should be fine.

Deathstars are best to be ignored or swarmed with tarpit unit.

Also I don't think all unit should be what you said, all unit most likely means all BA units since its a BA codex, but i guess this need to be debated, for me personally i wont allow you to use that rule, best ask the TO if he allows it then go ahead.

I feel any fast moving dedicated assult unit will destroy your deathstar or atleast tarpit them enough for them to not matter.

14 rapid firing plasma shots, 4 fusion shots, 9 missiles, 22 pulse rifles.is not very scary comming from 1000+ points

This is like the old draigo wing. good but nothing to scary, people dealt with draigo wing they will deal with this. also I forgot to mention guard (even more tanks and tons of large blasts and High S weapon spam, probably a worse version serpent spam.

Can we know what lists you faced in this tournaments?

well how many units can you kill? at most 1 unit per turn so your deathstar can kill 5 units, if I have tanks then you will take 1 turn to kill a tank then 1 turn to kill the unit inside and most competitive list spam MSU so in the end you would have barely killed enough to make a difference.

With target locks you can shoot each suit at a different unit if you want, so MSU wont work.

The current comeptitive army,
necron (wraith will most likely tie you down for the entire game, and flyer with troops inside which you can't kill unless you blow up the flyer, av13 so either 9" for melta or 1 per turn by your railgun)

Can't tie the unit up, it has hit and run and initiative 5. And the necron flyers don't have quantum shielding, only arm 11 and thus vulnerable to... everything. Plus they can't hurt anything while their troops are inside, so you can ignore them until you're down to killing scoring units.

eldar (serpent spam, 4+ cover and av 12, wraithknights nuff said)

Serpents are good for... what? They can help get a blade storm off, then the unit dies. And they are EXPENSIVE. Cover is ignored by the big unit. AV 12 is nothing when you have tank hunting missiles and fusion. I touched on wraithknights above, they aren't that big a problem.

Tau (Shooting 150 S 5 and lots more missle spam, or 125 missiles per turn)

Static tau can put out a lot of shots. But they are static, and have low LD, low BS, and low mobility. Any gunline tau will lose horribly against comparable IG armies. Either way, 2+ cover means they'd still have a hard time hurting anything, especially since less than half of the army is likely to be in range of anything at any given time.

Daemon (4 FMC, 1 MC, fast hounds)

FMC's are tough nuts, but as soon as they are grounded (not too hard to do with incidental fire) this unit can devastate them with monster hunter turned on. Detailed above.

Chaos space marine (heldrake, nurgle spawn, nurgle marines OR spam of fearless cultists.)

Helldrakes are good and can be annoying, need to use tank hunting twin linked missile pods/fusions and auto hitting blood lance to take em out. Other than that CSMs are very lackluster.

Ravenwing (high mobility, you have to chase them down or they also have alot of shooting)

Such low model count, and still not really fast enough to outrun this unit while still shooting, and not really scary at all in CC.

GK (dreadknights, stormraven, purifer spam)

Point efficient, but still marines. and still die to plasma. Storm ravens would be a good way to deliver dudes into combat, but I'd always get a turn to hurt them before they could assault me. And dreadknights? Not very good for the cost.

Orks (spam of bodies so you dont have enough gun to kill them all)

30 Orks per turn, plus whatever the kroot, blood angels, and hammerhead can kill. Spamming bodies lack the mobility to hurt me, nob bikers die to the higher quality weapons. Orks are really low down the chain of scary things for this list.

Bugs (9x T6 bodies, 4 MC 2 FMC)

Nids would be pretty easy for this list, monster hunter is a mean, mean thing and outside of the FMC's their mobility is pretty limited. FMC's are definitely still a bother, have to concentrate on them first.

Deathstars are best to be ignored or swarmed with tarpit unit.

CC deathstars can be tarpitted. This unit has hit and run and is a ranged unit. It isn't a "fire and forget" like most deathstars, which normally I agree with. It just seems like this unit doesn't behave like other deathstars, it operates in such a faster, more flexible way, doing damage the whole game with a ton of deployment options.

Also I don't think all unit should be what you said, all unit most likely means all BA units since its a BA codex, but i guess this need to be debated, for me personally i wont allow you to use that rule, best ask the TO if he allows it then go ahead.

I go with RAW, the Space Wolve version is more specifically friendly units so I can't use them by comparison. If a TO wants to mess with RAW, not much of a TO.

This is like the old draigo wing. good but nothing to scary, people dealt with draigo wing they will deal with this. also I forgot to mention guard (even more tanks and tons of large blasts and High S weapon spam, probably a worse version serpent spam.

This is similar to draigo wing, except much faster, can kill multiple units at a time, is mostly shooting, with a far large threat range. Actually, its mostly only like draigo wing in that it is hard to kill with shooting.

I know your thought processes here, deathstars are normally a dumb idea (even very powerful ones like draigo wing), but I really feel like the Puretide council transcends that normal line of though. It is just so much faster and more flexible, with such a threat range. I am concerned about the possibility of multiple FMCs, however. How do you think I could tweak this army to help mitigate that possibility?

To answer your question, no because you just don't have the points to do so. I theory craft also and do play tests some time but I am not 100% on rules. To deal with FMC is to ground them. You don't have the weight of fire of ground them consistently. You have so many points in your deathstar you won't have the points to do anything with the left over, I like the kroots but I don't like the hammerhead (rail gun tank, might got the name wrong) I think broadsides are better since, you have 1 tank and every anti tank weapon will be pointing at him. A bunch of broadside with 2+ might be better. They can also be armed with skyfire and interceptor.

I will point out a few thing after I read them and understand them more.

I want to talk about HnR, RAI and some things you might not knew because eldar serpents are not just transports and tau gunline is not low LD (they are LD 10)
To answer your question, no because you just don't have the points to do so. I theory craft also and do play tests some time but I am not 100% on rules. To deal with FMC is to ground them. You don't have the weight of fire of ground them consistently. You have so many points in your deathstar you won't have the points to do anything with the left over, I like the kroots but I don't like the hammerhead (rail gun tank, might got the name wrong) I think broadsides are better since, you have 1 tank and every anti tank weapon will be pointing at him. A bunch of broadside with 2+ might be better. They can also be armed with skyfire and interceptor.

I will point out a few thing after I read them and understand them more.

I want to talk about HnR, RAI and some things you might not knew because eldar serpents are not just transports and tau funkiness is not low LD (they are LD 10)

Your deathstar is very simmilar to a Delder+eldar deathstar with their 2+ cover and fast moving unit.

First lets talk about HnR, you can run but 18 wraiths and 1 Dlord will absolutely destroy your deathstar even in 1 round of combat, deathstar vs deathstar the necrons will win. targetlock means you can shoot at 2 units but with your firepower i am not sure you can grantee to kill what your shooting at. Necron scythe can shoot you. What do you mean they can't hurt anything while their troops are inside and all the scoring units are inside scythes so you are forced to shoot them if you want to kill the troops.

The new serpent spam is so much better than before they have 4 TL S6 shots at 36", 3 TL S6 ap2 at 24", TL D6+1 S7 ignore cover at 72". All that on a av12 tank with 4+ cover. Its nothing to be laugh at.

Tau gunline is 30" range. you have to stay outside of 15" or like terminator 2+ still die to massed fire.

This is my Chaos army:

HQ - Chaos Lord - bike - MON - Dark glory - Mace 160 pts
TR - Plague marine 2x melta - Rhino 175 pts
TR - Plague marine 2x melta - Rhino 175 pts
TR - Plague marine 2x melta - Rhino 175 pts
TR - 20x Cultists 2x heavy stubber 100 pts
FA - Heldrake baleflamer 170 pts
FA - Heldrake baleflamer 170 pts
FA - 5x Spawn MON 180 pts
HS - 5x Havocs 4 x autocannons 115 pts
HS - 5x Havocs 4 x autocannons 115 pts
HS - 5x Havocs 4 x autocannons 115 pts
FT - Agies defense line - Quad gun 100 pts

1750 pts

How do you think you can do to beat this army?

I think you might be overestimating a few of these things.

tau gunline is not low LD (they are LD 10)

Tau gunlines are low LD once the ethereal is dead (even just a little bit of bad positioning, like putting 4 FW on a side of him, lets him be picked off by a single 8 missile volley on average) or if they aren't centralized around a single point (even easier to avoid).

Tau gunline is 30" range. you have to stay outside of 15" or like terminator 2+ still die to massed fire.

50 S5AP5 shots at BS 3 do... 2.7 wounds to the council. A goodly dent in the drones (or, more likely, the commanders) to be sure.

The new serpent spam is so much better than before they have 4 TL S6 shots at 36", 3 TL S6 ap2 at 24", TL D6+1 S7 ignore cover at 72". All that on a av12 tank with 4+ cover. Its nothing to be laugh at.

I am aware they have a few powerful weapons, but for 145 pts they only get to shoot one of those weapons/turn when moving 12. And if they shoot the D6+1 one they lose their penetrating hit downgrade. On average, just the plasma (at 24'') and missiles will kill 1.5 of them a turn with hull points alone, and their shooting will inflict, if they stay still and shoot every weapon at full BS, they will inflict... 1.35 wounds on this unit. Really not that impressive for the cost.

Your deathstar is very simmilar to a Delder+eldar deathstar with their 2+ cover and fast moving unit.

That is where the similarity ends, though. That unit is predominantly CC, making their average threat range 19''. This unit has a much greater threat range, and can engage many more targets a game (starting turn 1). Like I said, it doesn't follow the same rules of engagement as traditional deathstars and that is what sets it apart and makes it viable at all.

Now, about your army, it looks quite good. I'm not sure if I could beat it at all, it would depend a lot of mission and deployment, and first turn would play a major role as well. Looks very competitive. That said, I actually really like playing against lists like this, a lot of points spent on things that simply aren't that useful against my army. Lets look at some numbers

Turn 1: Rhino popping time. Between Longstrike and the Council's 24''+ weaponry, with tank hunters up, I inflict 10.2 hull points, taking out all of the rhinos VERY reliably. So there are all your troops, stranded (in your deployment zone if I go first or steal). Depending on how well Longstrike shoots (he has ~55% chance of just killing or immobilizing one per turn), I might just shoot the missiles, 1 at each rhino (averaging 2.7 hull points each), and shoot the rest at something else. I assume you deploy the Lord with the Spawn somewhere near the middle, so they can react well. They will likely wait until another turn.

Turn 2: Your mini-deathstar (340 pts or 1/3 the price of mine) is now the major issue, barring using a speed bump unit or very good jump pack rolls, they will likely be in reasonable charge range next turn. This also means they are within rapid fire range. At this range, the unit will inflict 17.8 wounds on the unit, assuming they all get thrown on chaos spawn. This clears them out, leaving the lord by himself. Assuming he charges, overwatch will do 2.37 wounds. This will be reduced to 1.7 if you kill every drone with your shooting before hand (need some serious luck for that). In combat, assuming he doesn't roll that hateful 1, he will have on average 3+4+1+1=9 attacks, hit on 3's, wounding on 2's, with armor saves (only AP 4), he will do 1.66 wounds. In return he will take (again, assuming all drones are dead at this point) on average only a single wound. With stubborn up (no more tanks to shoot this turn) I lose but stand, hit and run on a 5-, and am free to shoot again during my turn.

Turn 3: Likely that both Helldrakes are on the field, and have done damage. The unit is hurting by now, especially if the rest of the army hasn't been able to make a big dent in your havocs (who all together will be inflicting 2.2 wounds per turn on the squad if they shoot at them). The trick against Helldrakes is to jump right next to their base. Then they can't shoot you next turn, since they have to move 18'' in one direction so if you can get everything in 6'' of the model it literally cannot hit anything the next turn no matter where it turns. Also you are guaranteed rear arc the next turn, where just the missiles will kill it only on average. Two makes this more difficult, just handle one at a time.

Past that, the game is probably chaos. How close are the plague marines? How well has the scatter from my hammerhead been to kill cultists? How well have outflanking kroot and drop pods marines done against the havocs? How many assault marines are still alive? And you'd have another 100 pts to spend, so even with a few elements of your army neutralized you'd have a bit more somewhere. From this point I think you'll agree that it looks like anyone's game with the overall luck of the game being a big factor (as it always is between competitive armies). But regardless, do these numbers show you why I think this list might just be up there in the power ranks?

As to replacing longstrike (you are right, he is inside of a hammerhead) with broadsides.... well, anti tank weapons are pretty much just as point effective when shot at suits or broadsides as they are when shot at him (he has a 4+ cover when he moves) and his S10 AP1 tank hunter is amazingly effective against heavy armor, the equivalent of about 6.5 space marine wielded lascannons when it comes to destroying AV14 each turn. He and the drop pod melta guns do a lot to solve the landraider or leman russ problem. Broadsides would be better vs flyers, but man, at LD 8 and 85 pts a pop for TL BS 3, S7/8 they just aren't all that effective at actually hurting things.

I will definitely be thinking about what I can do to be better against FMCs and the most dangerous flyers, though. I really appreciate the criticism, this little exercise made me think a LOT about what I'd do in these circumstances.

It is a deathstar list, but a shooty, deepstriking deathstar and therefore far more flexible than ordinary foot slogging CC deathstars.

I can see some potential problems.

1) An aimed shot at the puretide suit (Vindicare sniper etc) could deprive your deathstar of all the goodies - twinlink, ignore cover, hit and run and Puretide. I would at least put the puretide chip on some other suit to get some redundancy. But that is the weakness of the whole concept.

2) Enemies with template weapons that ignore cover. IG could do a lot of damage by Helldogs (the heavy flamer template fast attack vehicle) and nullify your BA allies psykic powers.

3) Psykers. An IG battle psyker squad could lower your leadership, forcing a retreat.

4) Early Warning Override - I believe more armies will get similar abilities. But unless you play against a Riptide/Missilside-heavy Tau list that is a problem for the future. On the other hand, an AP2 pie plate is not what you want to meet first turn.

On the whole a good list. Have you thought of using the Airburst against hordes?

1) Yeah, you need to make sure he's always far back that he can't be sniped. Putting the PEN on someone else is a possibility, although it makes explaining who is who a little bit harder. I'll have to think about it a bit more.

2) Hell dogs could take out drones, but I could also take the saves on farsight/shadowsun, who always roll at the very front since they auto pass Look Out Sir rolls when they are with the bodyguard. And if it gets within 12'', something has already gone terribly wrong lol. Definitely an element to think about, Collosus too, AP 3 and barrage targeting rules make it even scarier.

3) Battle Psykers are terrifying against this the same way they were terrifying against Nob Bikers. The difference is this unit is ranged, so you can keep your distance from them without being zoned out of your threat range.

4) EWO works against deepstriking... good thing this unit infiltrates instead! Deepstriking takes away at least 1 precious turn of shooting, this list just doesn't work if you have to deep strike.

I think though you guys....the point he's making is this: His list has answers to all of your "theorized lists" that people would not necessarily take to a tournament or a competitive setting where they should be taking TAC lists.

His list is a tough nut to crack, I think he's right. But it is built to table. If you can outlast his rediculous amount of firepower and kill of his crappy other units? He's done. You can likely get first blood if you take out his weak kroot units with Biovores (for instance because I play Nids primarily) You also take out a troop unit. Bottom line, if this list was beaten down to the deathstar, I think most armies could challenge it.

Barring everything else? Tough list....

Yeah, this list definitely has a bunch of eggs in that basket. A lot of the strategy of it comes from how to keep your scoring units alive and away from danger. I always keep the kroot in reserve, for instance, either outflanking or normal reserves depending on the positioning of objectives. The blood angels are also scoring units, potentially 4 extra when combat squaded, that are a little tougher to kill.

And it doesn't have really SOLID answers vs multiple Helldrakes or FMCs, requires careful positioning and a few good rolls to work against them.

Thanks though, I'm glad you like it!

I think there is one problem with your list as written. Your use of Infiltrate granted to the bodyguard via Shadowsun. The bodyguard squad is a separate unit in its own right. An IC specifically cannot join a unit of infiltrators. Joining Farsight and Shadowsun is in violation of this rule as Farsight cannot be granted infiltrate from Shadowsun. You can argue this, but see below for a second reason doing such is not rules legal.

Also, Farsight cannot be deployed with the bodyguard and Shadowsun. ICs join units when deployed in coherency with them, not before. Therefore the bodyguard is deployed, then IC's are deployed in coherency. The bodyguard unit would not be granted Infiltrate until Shadowsun joins them, and is therefore deployed and cannot benefit from Infiltrate. Either way, no Infiltrating Shadowsun Farsight Bodyguard unit.

You will either have to deepstrike them, or deploy as normal for this army to work RAW. There exists no FAQ to contend this.

That being said, the Farsight bomb is nasty and effective.

Thanks for the comment, I've hashed this out and seen this hashed out several times. It is a very technical argument that plays on a lot of interpretations of grammar (this thread in particular sets the standard for the back and forth on the issue: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?375194-IC-s-with-Infiltrate-and-attaching-them-to-units-without-the-special-rule). For instance, the word "with" and the sequence it implies throws a whole lot of wrenches into the mix. However, GW has addressed this in an FAQ exactly once, and since FAQs (even of other codices) trump both the rule book and codex, I've always gone by that.

Very specifically, the Codex: Space Marine FAQ talks about how Shrike can join a unit before deployment and grant them infiltrate. This counters the wording in the rule book, and (similar to the ruling that rage doesn't activate with counter attack for Blood Claws applies to Nid units with rage and counter attack as well) thus subverts the writing in the book for all codices.

Good point to bring up, however, and one that will inevitably be brought up every time you attempt to use a character to grant infiltrate to a unit (something that is pretty clearly RAI based on the rule book wording). I bring a copy of the C:SM FAQ to every tournament just in case it comes up.

Iron-Fist wrote:
Thanks for the comment, I've hashed this out and seen this hashed out several times. It is a very technical argument that plays on a lot of interpretations of grammar (this thread in particular sets the standard for the back and forth on the issue: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?375194-IC-s-with-Infiltrate-and-attaching-them-to-units-without-the-special-rule). For instance, the word "with" and the sequence it implies throws a whole lot of wrenches into the mix. However, GW has addressed this in an FAQ exactly once, and since FAQs (even of other codices) trump both the rule book and codex, I've always gone by that.

Very specifically, the Codex: Space Marine FAQ talks about how Shrike can join a unit before deployment and grant them infiltrate. This counters the wording in the rule book, and (similar to the ruling that rage doesn't activate with counter attack for Blood Claws applies to Nid units with rage and counter attack as well) thus subverts the writing in the book for all codices.

Good point to bring up, however, and one that will inevitably be brought up every time you attempt to use a character to grant infiltrate to a unit (something that is pretty clearly RAI based on the rule book wording). I bring a copy of the C:SM FAQ to every tournament just in case it comes up.

That being so, Shadowsun may be able to grant infiltrate to the unit and deploy with them as infiltrators, but that still does not allow Farsight to gain the Infiltrate special rule in turn as he would be gaining Infiltrate from the unit. I would still throw this to a TO on both counts at first opportunity. The rules clearly state and appear to be intended to prevent such an occurrence.

"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."

Serpent moving 12" can shoot 2 weapons.

For the drones when you allocate wounds to them they use their armour save or you take the save for the commander then allocate to them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing to add is if someone can kill your libby then your 2+ cover will be gone because without a cover save to begin with you can't buff it

Yeah, that is an order of events problem that also needs to be solved. The idea being Farsight joins the unit before they are infiltrators, then is given the infiltrator rule afterwards.

I'd prefer just a straight FAQ, but I'd be willing to give that point to a TO if it ever came up.

This is just a farsight bomb, if you want to know the true power of the tau ready the ultimate stupid post and if you don't believe it is actually ultimate stupid I suggest playing it.

Come again?

Iron-Fist wrote:
Yeah, that is an order of events problem that also needs to be solved. The idea being Farsight joins the unit before they are infiltrators, then is given the infiltrator rule afterwards.

I'd prefer just a straight FAQ, but I'd be willing to give that point to a TO if it ever came up.

RAW and RAI are very clear. An IC without Infiltrate cannot join an Infiltrating squad. You are attempting to justify this by adding an order of operations where none exists and banking on an FAQ written for another codex, then applying it to a imaginative order of events to skirt a clear cut rule. To do so IMO is in very poor taste and strictly speaking against the rules. RAW is very clear, Farsight cannot join a unit of Infiltrators and I will go as far as to say that RAW it is against the rules to even deploy Farside and Shadowsun in the same unit making the Farsight Bomb illegal RAW unless the unit is deployed via deepstrike, and then it is a semantics argument which leans in favor of disallowing Farsight and Shadowsun in the same unit.

Do you really need to make the ridiculously powerful Farsight Bomb more powerful and versatile?

Iron-fist I believe you haven't play against an all nurgle MC and fate weaver list....how do you handle a 2+ cover save with no marker light. Fate weaver at 2+ save with rerolls of 1. Plus if some of my MC gets Iron Arm....I don't see this list winning any GT...maybe local tournaments. Plus blood lance can't hit FMC

 mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
Iron-fist I believe you haven't play against an all nurgle MC and fate weaver list....how do you handle a 2+ cover save with no marker light. Fate weaver at 2+ save with rerolls of 1. Plus if some of my MC gets Iron Arm....I don't see this list winning any GT...maybe local tournaments. Plus blood lance can't hit FMC

You do know farsight bomb ignores cover saves?

But yeah, Farsight bomb tends to work better on smaller scale games where enemy cant answer to the firepower and versatility of that unit.

Well there's some rules issues here:

The bomb CAN NOT infiltrate. Shadowsun has infiltrate but there is no way to join her to the squad for them to infiltrate and if you could Farsight couldn't join the unit...

As for the list:

Farsight bomb us near impossible for many people to deal with. Personally I'd run full stones and more plasma over missiles in the list.

Longstrike sucks at dealing with AV14 less than 25% chance to kill if they have cover it just gets worse for him. Let the bomb deal with AV14 as it can with twin linked fusion.

The rest of your list is poor. The BA allies font cover any of the weaknesses of the Bomb. Whilst the total lack of AA will cost you against your worst match ups (death&despair squads, helldrakes).

The strength of the bomb has won you the tournament against better players the weakness of the rest of the list will cost you.

Skyrays and Missilesides are the best support to the bomb.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Well there's some rules issues here:

The bomb CAN NOT infiltrate. Shadowsun has infiltrate but there is no way to join her to the squad for them to infiltrate and if you could Farsight couldn't join the unit...

Do You have page number to back Your argument up with? I only found text saying IC wont benefit from unit's special rules, so Farsight cant infiltrate with unit but Shadowsun definitely can as the rules state unit benefits from IC's special rules.

The problem with deepstriking Shadowsun and Farsight is that they enter reserves as infiltrators. You do not have to declare that they are in reserves until after both your and your opponent's normal deployment. Farsight cannot be reserved in a unit of infiltrators as he would not be able to be reserved with them unless he also was being granted the Infiltrate special rule and being deployed after normal deployment as well. No choice about deploying and declaring infiltrators last after normal deployment sans Farsight.

 Shan1 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Well there's some rules issues here:

The bomb CAN NOT infiltrate. Shadowsun has infiltrate but there is no way to join her to the squad for them to infiltrate and if you could Farsight couldn't join the unit...

Do You have page number to back Your argument up with? I only found text saying IC wont benefit from unit's special rules, so Farsight cant infiltrate with unit but Shadowsun definitely can as the rules state unit benefits from IC's special rules.

Page 39 2nd paragraph. Note how you attach to unit during deployment. You must deploy within 2" of them thus they must already be deployed. If they are infiltrating to you can't hold off Far sights deployment yo deploy with them, if Shadowsun wants to give them infiltrate they have to already be deployed and thus are not eligible to be held back for infiltrate (which requires you to not be deployed).

It is a deathstar that is ok, but against ignore cover they still die easy enough, against misfortune that reduces their saves as well. My list laughs at farsight bombs though, just like one or two lists laugh at mine, it is situationly good.

What ignores cover do you have? What bomb lists are you playing?


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MarkyMark wrote:
It is a deathstar that is ok, but against ignore cover they still die easy enough, against misfortune that reduces their saves as well. My list laughs at farsight bombs though, just like one or two lists laugh at mine, it is situationly good.

Perfect timing, so either ap2 beams or str6 ap4. More thinking of guard with colossus and wave seperant spam

Daemons buddy

Perfect timing is likely to be on 1 unit so you get 1 turn where you kill a few extra drones and then bang your ignores cover is dead, if you even roll that power...

Who takes a Collosus anyway? Though they are good against the bomb their suck factor against every other top tier army means you rarely see them. Serpents only do it with the shield and you can reasonably expect to kill 4-5 Serpents turn 1 with a proper bomb build (2 Sky rays firing all 6 missiles at a Serpent each, 3 Missilesides firing 24 S7 shots at another plus the bomb).

A proper Bomb is very difficult to beat with an army that can do well in tournaments as the things that really scare it often suck against other builds.

It is a deathstar that is ok, but against ignore cover they still die easy enough, against misfortune that reduces their saves as well. My list laughs at farsight bombs though, just like one or two lists laugh at mine, it is situationly good.

Most ignore cover is pretty limited (Helldrakes being a major exception). Things like collosus are scatter prone and fragile. Markerlights are in that same boat. most flamers are either too short range to be really useful against this unit. I'd be interested to see a list that straight laughs at a unit like this, if you have time time to type it up.

Page 39 2nd paragraph. Note how you attach to unit during deployment. You must deploy within 2" of them thus they must already be deployed. If they are infiltrating to you can't hold off Far sights deployment yo deploy with them, if Shadowsun wants to give them infiltrate they have to already be deployed and thus are not eligible to be held back for infiltrate (which requires you to not be deployed).

Space Marine FAQ (under Shrike) specifies that independent characters can join units before deployment (and allow them to infiltrate).

Longstrike sucks at dealing with AV14 less than 25% chance to kill if they have cover it just gets worse for him. Let the bomb deal with AV14 as it can with twin linked fusion.

The rest of your list is poor. The BA allies font cover any of the weaknesses of the Bomb. Whilst the total lack of AA will cost you against your worst match ups (death&despair squads, helldrakes).

The strength of the bomb has won you the tournament against better players the weakness of the rest of the list will cost you.

Skyrays and Missilesides are the best support to the bomb.

Longstrike is amazing against AV 14. 46% to penetrate, 23% to destroy is actually a REALLY good average, especially from corner to corner ranges. For example, a space marine wielded lascannon only has a 3.7% chance of destroying AV 14. A space marine wielded meltagun in melta range only has a 19.4% chance. He is a really reliable weapon.

BA Allies, if you read above, give the key synergy that makes this list so much more powerful than a normal Farsight bodyguard. The 5+ cover from shield of sanguinius is absolutely key, making the Puretide Council almost immune to 99% of shooting. They also add tough troops and deepstriking melta turn 1, so I don't have to do something really really stupid like try to use my council to melta tanks at the other end of the board which may or may not contain terminators. Death and despair is... not that good. If somehow the templates hit 5 units each, it inflicts 2.5 wounds, inevitably put on drones. Skyrays and missile sides are... not very good either imo. Skyrays can't really hurt anything, S8AP3 needs to be absolutely spammed to do damage and its markerlights don't really add too much to this list. Useful against flyers? Maybe, although all 6 of its missiles will inflict a grand total of... 2 hull points of damage to AV 12. I'm really not sure where the idea that they are good against flyers comes from. Missile sides cannot move and shoot, so their threat range is 36'' total. They can do damage to things with less than a 3+ armor save in that range (especially with the addition of missile drones), but it is not really the most viable plan to count on. I would like to add a VT+EWO ion accelerator riptide, but I really don't know what I'd take out to make that happen. Maybe Longstrike and a kroot squad? I dunno.

Iron-fist I believe you haven't play against an all nurgle MC and fate weaver list....how do you handle a 2+ cover save with no marker light. Fate weaver at 2+ save with rerolls of 1. Plus if some of my MC gets Iron Arm....I don't see this list winning any GT...maybe local tournaments. Plus blood lance can't hit FMC

Yeah, GT's are a lil out of my price range lol. Maybe one day, but probably not super soon. And yeah, I saw that in the FAQ yesterday after I posted it, I should go back and edit it so no one makes my mistake! As to 2+ rerollable cover saves, the bomb (which is most of my firepower) ignores cover. But I think you mean a 2+ rerollable invulnerable save from using the grimoire of true names... which has to be carried by another model... which means you shoot that model so he can't do it again next turn. Also has a 1/3 chance to fail. But yeah, still very tough, esp as a FMC which this list has trouble with anyway.

RAW and RAI are very clear. An IC without Infiltrate cannot join an Infiltrating squad. You are attempting to justify this by adding an order of operations where none exists and banking on an FAQ written for another codex, then applying it to a imaginative order of events to skirt a clear cut rule. To do so IMO is in very poor taste and strictly speaking against the rules. RAW is very clear, Farsight cannot join a unit of Infiltrators and I will go as far as to say that RAW it is against the rules to even deploy Farside and Shadowsun in the same unit making the Farsight Bomb illegal RAW unless the unit is deployed via deepstrike, and then it is a semantics argument which leans in favor of disallowing Farsight and Shadowsun in the same unit.

Yeah, I am tempted to agree. Now I feel bad, I like to play inside the rules and hate even making mistakes like this. Farsight and Shadowsun are definitely allowed in the same unit, nothing against that, but upon further examination I don't think he can be deployed with them at infiltration. It does look like there is a semantic argument for him to join the unit at the beginning of the game (rather than join at deployment, which is expressly forbidden by infiltrator rule) if the unit deploys in coherency with him. He certainly couldn't outflank with them or, indeed, even deepstrike with them unless you define "infiltrators" as a unit that is infiltrating rather than a unit with the infiltrate special. Damn you GW, this gak shouldn't be this hard.

Only Blood Angels get the cover save from Shield of Sanguinius, so this tactic does not work.

I think you're looking at the 5th Edition SM FaQ that is not how the rules work now. No infiltrating for the bomb.

How much is your Long strike tank for 180ish points you have a 23% chance to kill a LR that 19% for a 25 point marine? Well let's take 4 marines for little over half the cost of your tank. What is their chances now? Or for 114 points you get 4 meltaguns on suits. Again you're odds against that LR go up hugely. For a single shot he has a great chance against an LR but single shots are not the best way to deal with tanks and Longstrike is always a single shot.

Your maths is well off on the despair squads. If they can hit 5 and with a footprint the size of your squad Id expect to be able to get 6 easily enough that's 10 hits wounding on 2+ causing ID. That's 8.33 kills before the Death marks themselves shoot personally I run 2 such squads. There goes your death star if you let me get shots at it.

Your estimation on Missilesides illustrates you've never played with or against them. After the bomb they are the best thing in the codex. They murder infantry (including Terminators) and light to medium mech. The Sky rays give you an alpha strike of 12 missiles turn 1 which should be hitting on a 2+ to help for that first turn before the bomb gets into maximum range, it will also help de-mech your opponent so the bomb doesn't have to waste a turn killing transports. Then you have 4 MLs a turn that can Skyfire for support the Missilesides.

VT Riptide why? Just why? It is terrible at skyfiring. You don't rate 5 S8 hits on a flyer for 115 points but think 1.5 S7 for 210 points is a good investment? Seriously?

Iron-Fist wrote:
Space Marine FAQ (under Shrike) specifies that independent characters can join units before deployment (and allow them to infiltrate).

Sorry, SM FaQ specifies that Shrike can join a unit pre-deployment, not any IC.

Cheers

Andrew


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How are you going to maintain the link to the BA Librarian? (Even if it works, and I have doubts.) You keep saying that this is your linchpin for the bomb, but then go on to say how you keep passing any wounds to the drones. Net result you've lost the chain.

Also LoS wounds can still only be passed to within 6" even with the Tau special rule, not within the entire unit.

Cheers

Andrew

 FlingitNow wrote:
Perfect timing is likely to be on 1 unit so you get 1 turn where you kill a few extra drones and then bang your ignores cover is dead, if you even roll that power...

Who takes a Collosus anyway? Though they are good against the bomb their suck factor against every other top tier army means you rarely see them. Serpents only do it with the shield and you can reasonably expect to kill 4-5 Serpents turn 1 with a proper bomb build (2 Sky rays firing all 6 missiles at a Serpent each, 3 Missilesides firing 24 S7 shots at another plus the bomb).

A proper Bomb is very difficult to beat with an army that can do well in tournaments as the things that really scare it often suck against other builds.

One unit with a lot of firepower

With Eldar and Tau being the new go to boys for comp lists I think ignoring cover is king, also with plague bearers sporting a 2 plus cover save.

As I said before against some lists the Tau bomb is very good, it laughs at marines as does the rest of the tau dex.

I think you're looking at the 5th Edition SM FaQ that is not how the rules work now. No infiltrating for the bomb.

Nope, it's the current one. And FAQs trump the rule book, so I guess it is how the rules work now.

How much is your Long strike tank for 180ish points you have a 23% chance to kill a LR that 19% for a 25 point marine? Well let's take 4 marines for little over half the cost of your tank. What is their chances now? Or for 114 points you get 4 meltaguns on suits. Again you're odds against that LR go up hugely. For a single shot he has a great chance against an LR but single shots are not the best way to deal with tanks and Longstrike is always a single shot.

The tank is 190 pts, the way I outfit it. That is is .0012 dead landraiders per point. Space marines with lascannons are, usually, 15+25=40 pts each, ending up with an efficiency of .0009 dead landraiders per point. If you are using tacticals (as your 25 pt number would imply), well, we should probably include the "buffer" models in that equation as well and it becomes even less efficient. Then you have to consider how much more the mobility and toughness of a AV13, 4+ cover save vehicle with a decent secondary weapon system, ignoring night fight, and the nice perk of overwatching everything adds to that disparity. The dropping suits are indeed more efficient, but come in turn 2 at the earliest (after the landraider is at least mid field, maybe across the board), and are very, very vulnerable when they get there (usually get to shoot once, while Longstrike usually gets ~3 turns, sometimes the whole game depending on opponent). Then you have to include the possibility of scattering out of melta range or into something. But yeah, definitely a judgement call, I just happen to think Longstrike is very much worth it.

Your estimation on Missilesides illustrates you've never played with or against them. After the bomb they are the best thing in the codex. They murder infantry (including Terminators) and light to medium mech. The Sky rays give you an alpha strike of 12 missiles turn 1 which should be hitting on a 2+ to help for that first turn before the bomb gets into maximum range, it will also help de-mech your opponent so the bomb doesn't have to waste a turn killing transports. Then you have 4 MLs a turn that can Skyfire for support the Missilesides.

I've played with them and against. They aren't bad, but they always seem to represent a whole bunch of the army and never seem to perform the way they are expected. I find them especially underwhelming against infantry. 36'' range, same as a moving firewarrior, let's use that as a comparison. A firewarrior gets .037 wounds per point (before saves) against toughness 4. A broadside gets .029 wounds per point. Hardly the model of efficiency. At 30'' this goes up to .0529. At 21'' (notably less, but a decent comparison point) the firewarrior gets .074. They are not terrible against infantry, but surely we'd give most basic infantry the advantage in that particular category. The Council kills .017 MEQ's per point vs broadside's [equation: wounds/point=(number of shots)*(chance to hit)*(chance to wound)/(points of unit)]

But they are meant to be shooting at medium vehicles, so let's look at that. Here broadsides compete Broadsides will kill (via hull points or explodes) .0049 AV12, 3 hull point vehicles per point spent. Longstrike is a surprisingly comparable .0034 per point spent, and he is also much more useful against high AV. Pretty much a wash offencively in this category, especially since if they take velocity trackers a unit of broadsides can't hit multiple targets. Similarly, broadsides are better against infantry and are static, Longstrike is better against heavy vehicles and is mobile, again, depends on what the army needs. Just pointing out that they aren't breathtakingly efficient (for comparison, Long Fangs get .0052 kills per point invested). [equation: kills/point=(number of shots)*(to hit)*(chance of getting glance or pen/3+chance of getting pen and explodes)/(points of unit)]

However, I will 100% agree that they are clearly better against flyers than Longstrike, and about twice as point efficient as the Puretide Council, who currently fill this role in my army (.0032 for missile sides vs .0018 for the council). Does that make up for their fragility (compared to the Council, that is) and lack of mobility? A judgement call, and one I tend to disfavor them in. I just don't see them being the grand efficient winners that they seem to be made out to be.

VT Riptide why? Just why? It is terrible at skyfiring. You don't rate 5 S8 hits on a flyer for 115 points but think 1.5 S7 for 210 points is a good investment? Seriously?

Because it is useful at other things and is REALLY REALLY tough. The skyfire is a marginal utility for them (which is generally what I feel skyfire should be). I can see why you would disagree, however. Meanwhile, the skyray is pretty "meh" at just about everything.

Sorry, SM FaQ specifies that Shrike can join a unit pre-deployment, not any IC.

Semantically, no, it doesn't specify him as being special or different in this respect. It just mentions that he "has joined [a unit] before deployment."

How are you going to maintain the link to the BA Librarian? (Even if it works, and I have doubts.) You keep saying that this is your linchpin for the bomb, but then go on to say how you keep passing any wounds to the drones. Net result you've lost the chain.

In the Blood Angels codex it says "any model", and this is not modified (as many other rules in that codex has been) to Codex: Blood Angels specific. In fact, it is only mentioned in the FAQ to make it clear that it also gives vehicles a cover save. To maintain the "link" you simply keep one part of the unit (I usually trail the 2 missile suits and support suit behind) within 6'' of the librarian.

Also LoS wounds can still only be passed to within 6" even with the Tau special rule, not within the entire unit.

LOS actually has to go to the nearest model, which is why I put the two IC's at the very front of the unit and put all the drones right behind them (and closer than the other suits).

Iron-Fist wrote:

I think you're looking at the 5th Edition SM FaQ that is not how the rules work now. No infiltrating for the bomb.

Nope, it's the current one. And FAQs trump the rule book, so I guess it is how the rules work now.

I can't see how you can justify using the SM FAQ to allow the infiltrate. It references a specific model (shrike) from a different codex (SM) to allow his special rule (see but remain unseen) to function until a new dex is released. Using an alternate codex ruling to make something work the way you want it is a little dodgy to me.

The deployment rules (to me) are very clear - you have no opportunity to infiltrate the bodyguard due to the way characters deploy with units.

I have yet to see a tourney locally that allows what you want.

That said, if they rule it that an IC with infiltrate does indeed confer it prior to deployment and thus are allowed to join prior to being placed in the table - i will enjoy my illic nightspear along side a full maxed out Dark Eldar beast pack in combat with you at the start of the game

Well, since you can't assault the first turn when you infiltrate, I'm okay with you starting an expensive and toothless unit within rapid fire range. =)

And yes, it references the ability to join a unit before deployment and not as a special ability or unique aspect of the character. A strong RAW argument for what is obviously RAI.

Iron-Fist wrote:
Well, since you can't assault the first turn when you infiltrate, I'm okay with you starting an expensive and toothless unit within rapid fire range. =)

And yes, it references the ability to join a unit before deployment and not as a special ability or unique aspect of the character. A strong RAW argument for what is obviously RAI.

You seem to have misunderstood me - I am not assaulting the first turn - i am starting in base to base with you at deployment. Illics rules allow me to ignore deployment restrictions while infiltrating... thus i can start in base to base

But that reference is part of a special rule held by a character - his rule is see but remain unseen - not infiltrate.

Its not a strong RAW at all for a general ruling. Its a specific codex overruling rulebook situation. RAI could go either way. I will be happy either way!

I have a 1500pt ork list that can dish out 3 str8 ap3 large blasts, and 2 str2d6 ap2 large blasts a turn. With all that shooting at your death star, there probably wouldn't be much left of it after a turn. Its still a decent list, but like most death star lists it will have hard counters. Granted your not very likely to come by a list like that in a tournament setting, since it would most likely get creamed, but its still worth taking into consideration.

Also templates will be a problem for this list too.

 Massaen wrote:


You seem to have misunderstood me - I am not assaulting the first turn - i am starting in base to base with you at deployment. Illics rules allow me to ignore deployment restrictions while infiltrating... thus i can start in base to base

Thank god no TO is ever going to allow that. And that must be one of the worst RAW rulings GW has ever made and I'm not even sure if the rule ATM allows it because ignoring deployment restrictions doesnt ignore normal rules for having to be 1" away from enemy models.

____________________

After reading pg 32, I gotta agree with FlingitNow, no infiltrate for bomb.

Iron-Fist, what kind of loadout would you suggest for allied farsight bodyguard unit?

 Shan1 wrote:

 Massaen wrote:


You seem to have misunderstood me - I am not assaulting the first turn - i am starting in base to base with you at deployment. Illics rules allow me to ignore deployment restrictions while infiltrating... thus i can start in base to base

Thank god no TO is ever going to allow that. And that must be one of the worst RAW rulings GW has ever made and I'm not even sure if the rule ATM allows it because ignoring deployment restrictions doesnt ignore normal rules for having to be 1" away from enemy

Just for kicks, I could argue that the 1" rule applies only in the movement phase and that I am only prohibited from moving within 1", not deploying within 1". After all, scout moves are now a deployment, not a move.

My point is that just because I want to read it this way does not mean its right. Intact, I think my example is legal to use if you want to infiltrate a farsight bomb... It's raw after all

That said, if they rule it that an IC with infiltrate does indeed confer it prior to deployment and thus are allowed to join prior to being placed in the table - i will enjoy my illic nightspear along side a full maxed out Dark Eldar beast pack in combat with you at the start of the game

And of course you'd have Karandras attached

Or you'd just infiltrate 10 D-Scythe Wraithguard 1" away from the bomb and make it all go away turn 1...

The hilarity of this rules mistake should not be under estimated.

See here for further details:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/541563.page

I second that the BA librarian can't confer a cover save to a unit from another army - the FAQ reads that it only confers saves to Blood Angels. The bomb is still easy enough to keep in cover though for the 2+ saves.

To be honest, it just looks like your local competition haven't adjusted to the current meta.

I'll not take anything away, the bomb is strong, its a deathstar that can attack multiple things at once so it does address the traditional problems of limited killing power.

However, as has been stated, it'll be weak vs the things that are currently super strong, to whit. Psychic powers, FMCs and ignore cover stuff. Specifically...

Eldar with serpent spam. These guys will be firing their shields at you and 5d6+5 str 7 t/l, cover ignoring, pinning shots will almost definitely have your guys pinned and castrated after a turn of shooting + misfortune and any other maledictions they cast on you (taking advantage of it being a massive unit and getting good value from a single power cast) will mean the rest of the shooting isn't negligible.

Chaos demon screamer council (go to sons of sanguinus for an idea of the build) 4 heralds all with mastery lvl 3, getting the +2 save from fate weaver 4+ invulnerable from forewarning, able to reroll all 1s, upto 12d6 str 6 ap4 shot with perfect timing. plus it can handily take you in CC.

ANY tau army with markerlight support. Napkin math, but an overcharged ion accelerator with ignore cover should ID shadowsun and farsight 1st shot if they are the closest models. given perfect spreading 2 shots will take out the majority of its punch (9-10 models minimum)

Helldrakes

As has already been mentioned FMCs will tear you a new one. You mention grounding checks, but looking at your army (and being generous) you can force maybe 1 grounding check on any FMC before your farsun bomb has to shoot. Honestly I quite fancy those odds with a single daemon prince. And unlike any other deathstar If an I8 daemon prince makes it into combat with you (and any list with a prince in it is geared to making it into combat, 3d6 JSJ be dammed) you'll get murdered and swept/locked in combat/murderfistraped by a black mace.

So IMO to recap. Your list is strong, there is no way it needs banning from your LFGS. TBH if there was a prize (how much store credit btw?) then the guys you were playing should have brought stronger lists. In future for purely friendly games shelf it tho...or direct your opposition to this thread, bend over and lube up.

Iron-Fist wrote:

Sorry, SM FaQ specifies that Shrike can join a unit pre-deployment, not any IC.

Semantically, no, it doesn't specify him as being special or different in this respect. It just mentions that he "has joined [a unit] before deployment."

Please use the entire FaQ.

Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following:
“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit
chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before
deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule).

This applies only to Kayvaan Shrike, not to a general rules query, but to a specific ability/rule. The entire sentence only applies to him and not to generic characters.

Please show a general rule that allows infiltrating ICs to join units before deployment?

Cheers

Andrew

You seem to have misunderstood me - I am not assaulting the first turn - i am starting in base to base with you at deployment. Illics rules allow me to ignore deployment restrictions while infiltrating... thus i can start in base to base

But that reference is part of a special rule held by a character - his rule is see but remain unseen - not infiltrate.

Its not a strong RAW at all for a general ruling. Its a specific codex overruling rulebook situation. RAI could go either way. I will be happy either way!

Yeah, an interesting question mark right there too. You'd prolly lose people trying to get the specific parts of his special rule to apply to other parts of the squad, since it isn't specified in the rule book the way infiltrate is.

I have a 1500pt ork list that can dish out 3 str8 ap3 large blasts, and 2 str2d6 ap2 large blasts a turn. With all that shooting at your death star, there probably wouldn't be much left of it after a turn. Its still a decent list, but like most death star lists it will have hard counters. Granted your not very likely to come by a list like that in a tournament setting, since it would most likely get creamed, but its still worth taking into consideration.

Also templates will be a problem for this list too.

Yeah, the large blast alpha strike (notably from IG) is the major reason I feel that shield of sanguinius (or an Ork KFF if you prefer that) is so key to this army. It's the only way to get a 2+ cover save on the unit very reliably and that is how your weather the storm there. Templates with AP3 are pretty rare, and really only the Helldrake is a reliable delivery method for them. The popularity of that unit definitely makes that a potential blind spot in the list, but honestly I think the strength of the Helldrake stems mostly from the difficulty involved in making a list that deal with one cost effectively while not losing out against non-Helldrake-containing armies (most of them).

Eldar with serpent spam. These guys will be firing their shields at you and 5d6+5 str 7 t/l, cover ignoring, pinning shots will almost definitely have your guys pinned and castrated after a turn of shooting + misfortune and any other maledictions they cast on you (taking advantage of it being a massive unit and getting good value from a single power cast) will mean the rest of the shooting isn't negligible.

5 of these, with their normal gear (starcannon/shuriken cannon, holofields), with minimum squads of guardians only, end up costing more than the farsight bomb and will take significantly more damage from the bomb than the bomb takes from them. The Council will take 5.56 wounds from those cover ignoring weapons, plus another 1.2 from the other weapon fired. Meanwhile, at 24'' the Council will 2.0 of them per turn, going up to 3.7 per turn at 18''. They seem like they would be more effective than a lot of things though.

Chaos demon screamer council (go to sons of sanguinus for an idea of the build) 4 heralds all with mastery lvl 3, getting the +2 save from fate weaver 4+ invulnerable from forewarning, able to reroll all 1s, upto 12d6 str 6 ap4 shot with perfect timing. plus it can handily take you in CC.

Yeah, this seems VERY good. Failing 1/36 saves is stupid good. A few things that need to go right: need to roll forewarning (1/6*4*3=2, a very likely chance), need to not fail the grimoire (2/3 chance), and need to not fail the psychic test (8.33% chance). A very tough list that I have thankfully never encountered, I am truly unsure how to handle this without something like a SW libby cancelling powers on a 4+ or a really tough CC unit just to pin it down. I'd probably try to engage it with assault marines if possible. In CC, a full unit of screamers and 4 heralds (assuming no CC gear, they dont have access to much that's good anyway) kill 2.7 marines in each assault phase, so it would buy some time but not an unlimited amount. Notably the GoTN does not affect its bearer, so if you can single him out with precision shots you can get him (no eternal warrior and T3 means that he can be picked off with a single lucky plasma shot). Those are some very narrow windows, this unit looks tough as nails.

ANY tau army with markerlight support. Napkin math, but an overcharged ion accelerator with ignore cover should ID shadowsun and farsight 1st shot if they are the closest models. given perfect spreading 2 shots will take out the majority of its punch (9-10 models minimum)

Yeah, markerlights can be mean. But most armies at 1850 will only include maybe 5-6 markerlight hits turn one. That means he can strip the cover from the Council for one unit (and generally only for one turn). I actually faced this in the third game of the tournament, he was going first and had a big unit of pathfinders and a riptide. I spread out, he hit with 4 markers, stripped my save down to a 6+ for his riptide, hit 4 models, wounded 3, and I used LOS to pass them from farsight to the drones right behind him. Then they pathfinders died and his riptide had a hard time being effective.

As has already been mentioned FMCs will tear you a new one. You mention grounding checks, but looking at your army (and being generous) you can force maybe 1 grounding check on any FMC before your farsun bomb has to shoot. Honestly I quite fancy those odds with a single daemon prince. And unlike any other deathstar If an I8 daemon prince makes it into combat with you (and any list with a prince in it is geared to making it into combat, 3d6 JSJ be dammed) you'll get murdered and swept/locked in combat/murderfistraped by a black mace.

Oh yeah, FMCs are a glaring hole in this list, along with flyers. I feel like they are in most lists, because of the expense (or as I see it, opportunity cost) involved with AA options. Kroot loops will help, overwatch will help (3.9 unsaved wounds v T5 3+/5++ from overwatch with monster hunter up, not terrible considering demon princes have 4 wounds). The big thing? If I take monster hunter to try and get those good odds, I don't have stubborn and my chances of being swept before I can Hit and Run are WAYYY higher. I think normally, if I knew I was unlikely to stop him from assaulting, I'd simply take stubborn and then hit and run after the combat, turn on monster hunter again the next turn, and demolish the landed daemon (16.2 wounds per shooting phase, minus the deaths from the 3.33 wounds the daemon prince will inflict on his charge). I could definitely use more small units to try and get those grounding tests to fail, though, that would be ideal.

So IMO to recap. Your list is strong, there is no way it needs banning from your LFGS. TBH if there was a prize (how much store credit btw?) then the guys you were playing should have brought stronger lists. In future for purely friendly games shelf it tho...or direct your opposition to this thread, bend over and lube up.

Thank you! I'm quite happy with it, although this conversation has brought up a lot of things I'd like to address. The prize was just $40 (semi-monthly tournament), and yeah, this list will not be making friends any time soon (can't imagine the flabbergast involved in the 4x herald/screamer list mentioned early, rerollable 2+).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, one more:

I second that the BA librarian can't confer a cover save to a unit from another army - the FAQ reads that it only confers saves to Blood Angels. The bomb is still easy enough to keep in cover though for the 2+ saves.

The FAQ doesn't say anything about shield other than that it can affect vehicles. This is specifically different than several other rules (like Blood Chalice) which are switched to Codex:BA only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following:
“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit
chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before
deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule).

This applies only to Kayvaan Shrike, not to a general rules query, but to a specific ability/rule. The entire sentence only applies to him and not to generic characters.

Please show a general rule that allows infiltrating ICs to join units before deployment?

He joins them before deployment. It isn't part of his special ability, that just gives them the infiltrate special rule. It also doesn't say "this allows him to join them", it jut says "joined", as though it was something he could do beforehand. Semantically, this shows the RAI and, being in an FAQ, it makes it RAW. A similar (although less specifically applicable) ruling can be found in the Ork FAQ, where IC's are allowed to join Snikrot's unit and use their ambush rule before the start of the game.

Wow, I stand corrected - I would swear blind that it was in the FAQ at the start of sixth edition that SoS only works on Blood Angels units... Do they remove things from FAQs as well as add them?

That's great news for me and my SoS librarian in a razorback - now my allied chimeras, griffons and vendetta are going to be getting handy 5+ cover saves!

I think that games workshop should be more careful about this sort of thing though and move to block it quicker - things that grant cheap 2+ saves or even 2+ re-rollable covers / invulnerables (grr fateweaver, fortune + archons, mantle of the laughing god...)

As for this list, I would be interested to see how eldar work with them as allies - I can't help but think that spiritseers and farseers on jetbikes would add a LOT to this unit!

Eldar definitely add to this list, especially since they can do a similar assault move (although it would not benefit from the 3d6 move from shadowsun). If I could count on their powers more reliably (WTF was GW thinking making eldar roll for every power like they were orks or chaos demons) I would be much more high on them. As it is, I think Eldar allies might have a very good place in Farsight Enclave lists, although I haven't really looked at it too closely yet (seeing as I don't have a full copy of the FE rules yet).

Has anyone mentioned riptides? Because one Ion Accelerator Riptide with Pathfinder support smashes this unit with one direct-hit blast.

Edit - as to the joining a unit debacle, I direct everyone to Pg. 38 BRB, Infiltrate, last text block.

An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.

To me, this shows an RAI of not doing this Farsight infiltration, as it shows intent to not have special characters without the infiltrate rule appear as infiltrated.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Has anyone mentioned riptides? Because one Ion Accelerator Riptide with Pathfinder support smashes this unit with one direct-hit blast.

Yeah, it isn't like markerlights and Riptides are a rarity now a days.

Has anyone mentioned riptides? Because one Ion Accelerator Riptide with Pathfinder support smashes this unit with one direct-hit blast.

"Smashes" might be a bit of an overstatement, considering with proper spreading they will hit 3-4 max, with a 48.14% chance of scattering more than the radius of the blast. Then the wounds will be pawned off onto drones (one of the IC's is always put up front, with drones right behind, auto-pass LOS), avoiding the instant death thing. Then you have 1 turn, because those pathfinders have a giant target on their faces lol.

To me, this shows an RAI of not doing this Farsight infiltration, as it shows intent to not have special characters without the infiltrate rule appear as infiltrated.

Yeah, I agree, that is something I definitely played wrong. I'm wondering if he can join them "before the game begins" by being deployed normally and then having them deploy within 2'' of him during the infiltration stage? I'm not sure. Either way, farsight starting with the unit isn't 100% essential (he mostly just gives access to the bodyguard, Shadowsun is the one who gives all the juicy special rules), just a nice lil bonus.

Iron-Fist wrote:
He joins them before deployment. It isn't part of his special ability, that just gives them the infiltrate special rule. It also doesn't say "this allows him to join them", it jut says "joined", as though it was something he could do beforehand. Semantically, this shows the RAI and, being in an FAQ, it makes it RAW. A similar (although less specifically applicable) ruling can be found in the Ork FAQ, where IC's are allowed to join Snikrot's unit and use their ambush rule before the start of the game.

Which he can't actually do because the deployment rules and joining of IC to units specifically prevents this, ergo it has to be something to do with the special ability under which it is listed.

Also, FaQs are, basically, GW's equivalent of houserules. The one thing that they are not is RaW. Errata is RaW. FaQs are not.

I'm quite happy for any IC with See, but not be see ti join a unit beforehand, but infiltrate? Nah, not happening.

Semantically, this shows the RaI of SBNBS, not infiltrate, nor does it show semantically that characters can join units before deployment. BrB is quite clear on that one.

PS, I'd love to be able to join Shadowsun and infiltrate a unit of XV88s, but the deployment rules prevent me from doing so.

Cheers

Andrew

Um... the FAQ's are the errata... and the whole game is GW's house rules...

You're welcome to your interpretation, this is not a clear cut issue and hasn't been for a long time. I actually emailed GW about it yesterday and they say they always respond within 3 business days. *skeptical fingers crossed*

Iron-Fist wrote:

Very specifically, the Codex: Space Marine FAQ talks about how Shrike can join a unit before deployment and grant them infiltrate. This counters the wording in the rule book, and (similar to the ruling that rage doesn't activate with counter attack for Blood Claws applies to Nid units with rage and counter attack as well) thus subverts the writing in the book for all codices.

FAQs only apply to the book it was written for. If Shrike has a specific exception, then it is granted to Shrike and Shrike alone, not to other ICs.

Also, ICs cannot join units "before deployment." The FAQ says, a "unit...that he has joined before delpoyment." The only way ICs can join a unit without being deployed is if that unit and the IC stay in Reserve together. Otherwise, an IC begins the game joined to a unit if the IC is deployed in coherency with the unit. In 6th, there isn't the same "join before deployment" that there was in 5th. So the purpose of the FAQ is to show that Shrike can allow a unit to Outflank. Any models that do not have the Infiltrate USR in their stats cannot deploy via infiltrating.

FAQs only apply to the book it was written for. If Shrike has a specific exception, then it is granted to Shrike and Shrike alone, not to other ICs.

FAQs that rule on issues apply to all books. IIRC, an example was when, in 5th ed, the Space Wolf FAQ clarified that rage did not set off with counter attack, thus putting limits on the Tyranids as well.

Also, ICs cannot join units "before deployment." The FAQ says, a "unit...that he has joined before delpoyment." The only way ICs can join a unit without being deployed is if that unit and the IC stay in Reserve together. Otherwise, an IC begins the game joined to a unit if the IC is deployed in coherency with the unit. In 6th, there isn't the same "join before deployment" that there was in 5th. So the purpose of the FAQ is to show that Shrike can allow a unit to Outflank. Any models that do not have the Infiltrate USR in their stats cannot deploy via infiltrating.

Well, it would be nice if the rulebook and FAQ lined up, but they do not. In that situation, the FAQ trumps, hence the basis of this whole argument. And if any model that didn't have the infiltrate USR could not use it, perhaps the sentence "Units that contain at least one model..." Again, it isn't clear, but the advantage in this argument, thanks to the preeminence of FAQs, is on the side that allows it.

The line that says "a unit that contains at least 1 model..." allows things like drones who are attached to stealth teams or shadowsun to infiltrate or (prior to the new codex) striking scorpions where the exarch bought infiltrate and thus confered it to the squad.

FAQ's don;t rule on issues across all books otherwise they would be in the main FAQ or in a single gigantic FAQ for the whole game.

Despite us providing numerous points of contention to your readings of the rules, it is obvious you will not be swayed. I only hope that the TO's in your area and the players you face take the time to read the rules/visit dakka or some other forum and make themselves aware that what you are doing is presently - at very best - a grey area in the rules or - at worst - outright illegal within the rule set.

There is no denying the list would work without infiltrate via deep strike or even standard deployment but the bite would certainly be lessened in these cases.

As I said before - If they allow IC's with infiltrate to confer it to units - much like the FAQ allows for shrike and shrike alone - then i will be one happy eldar player... though i am not sure i want to be 'That Guy'

Iron-Fist wrote:

FAQs only apply to the book it was written for. If Shrike has a specific exception, then it is granted to Shrike and Shrike alone, not to other ICs.

FAQs that rule on issues apply to all books. IIRC, an example was when, in 5th ed, the Space Wolf FAQ clarified that rage did not set off with counter attack, thus putting limits on the Tyranids as well.

Both Rage and Counter Attack are BRB USRs. Shrike is not a BRB USR. The wording of his FAQ does not in any way alter or affect the wording of Infiltrate. Again, the only way an IC can join a unit "before deployment" is if the unit goes into reserves. It is impossible for an IC to join a unit before deployment if it then starts on the table. Why? Because of how units are deployed!
To quote IC rule: "An IC can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." There are two and only two options: 1) Be in coherency in your deployment zone; 2) Start in reserve with the squad.

Infiltrators have Infiltrate, which requires them to deploy last: "ARE deployed last" (BRB p38). So, for your squad that does not have Infiltrate...where are they located after "all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed" (BRB p38)? If they are not deployed, then they must be in reserve. And if they are in reserve, then they cannot be infiltrating! Remember that an IC CANNOT join a unit except in two cases: if they are already on the table and in coherency, or if they are in reserve together. This falls under neither of those cases.
Shrike MIGHT have an explicit exception. But note that his FAQ does not mention Shadowsun, who has to abide by all the normal permissions and restrictions of Infiltrate.

Here's a similar example: My GK assassins have a FNP. The BRB says that FNP is a 5+, but my book says that assassins have a FNP of 6+; I must abide by the restrictions set in my own codex. It would be cheating to go against the rules that are written for my own particular model. In this case, my codex makes the USR worse; that's just something I have to deal with.
The parallel: Shrike has the Infiltrate USR. The BRB gives certain restrictions to Infiltrate, and his FAQ gives a clarification to how that works. (Although I'm still sure that has to do only with the Outflank aspect of Infiltrate).
Does Shadowsun have a special exception? No. And if we start applying all unique models' special exceptions to all other models, then FNP changes to a 6+, since that's what my assassins have to use. Or we could agree that each model has its own rules, and sometimes even special versions of BRB rules: Assassins, Shrike, and Shadowsun all included.

Iron-Fist wrote:
Um... the FAQ's are the errata... and the whole game is GW's house rules...

You're welcome to your interpretation, this is not a clear cut issue and hasn't been for a long time. I actually emailed GW about it yesterday and they say they always respond within 3 business days. *skeptical fingers crossed*

This is from GW site

What Are Amendments, Errata and FAQs?

It's helpful to people's understanding of these documents that we provide a clear distinction between Errata and FAQs.

Errata provide corrections to the errors that sometimes creep into our books. It is important to note that Errata carry the same 'authority' as the main rules and permanently modify published material; where one of our books says one thing and the errata changes this to something else, the errata takes precedence as the 'correct' version of that material.

Amendments are changes made to our rules in order to make them work within a new context; the most common example would be when a new core rulebook is released which then has a knock-on effect of invalidating existing material. They are not designed to fix newly created weaknesses or shortfalls, but simply to ensure that no rule, unit, item of equipment or whatever else is left incompatible with the current edition of the game.

FAQs, or Frequently Asked Questions are grey areas, points of confusion or places where rules can and have been interpreted in conflicting ways. For each FAQ we provide the answer as determined by the Games Development team; while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation.

So no FaQs are not RaW, but GW official RaI.

Please note that I'm not attacking your argument, that your interpretation is RaW, after all the passage you used from the SM FaQ is a replace para rather than a FaQ. I simply don't like the misconception that FaQs=RaW.

Cheers

Andrew

I first saw this list the day it was posted and i have to say I LOVE the synergy and bad ass HQ action. The only thing I would like to see is some AV14 poping ability, and maybe just a little anti-flyer.

I was wondering what you would think of droppng the hammer head and throwing in a BA stormraven. They have a much higher chance of poping AV14 and heldraks and other flyers will fall mercilessly to the ground. IMO having a storm raven fly on the board to kill two heldraks and watch as your worst match up becomes your best.

And as far as the FMC lists go just chalenge with the sword HQ i believe he has a 3+inv so your shouldnt have trouble surviving a round of combat before you hit and run. ??? or am i missing something.

Also i was wondering with overwatch and this unit, can you buff their over watch some how??? if you can even deadlier.

This lists synergy is AWESOME. And if you can keep your marines and kroot alive this list will murder most others. Thanks for the post.

I was wondering what you would think of droppng the hammer head and throwing in a BA stormraven. They have a much higher chance of poping AV14 and heldraks and other flyers will fall mercilessly to the ground. IMO having a storm raven fly on the board to kill two heldraks and watch as your worst match up becomes your best.

I like stormravens, they are very good flyers, but they aren't that great against AV14 (only S8, AP 1 doesn't matter with only the rare glancing hit) and they are super expensive points wise. Plus they would be something for enemy AV to shoot at, where as in the current list they are just wasted points.

And as far as the FMC lists go just chalenge with the sword HQ i believe he has a 3+inv so your shouldnt have trouble surviving a round of combat before you hit and run. ??? or am i missing something.

Yeah that's a good idea. It's only a 4++, but if he doesn't have any wounds on him yet he has a good chance of surviving.

Also i was wondering with overwatch and this unit, can you buff their over watch some how??? if you can even deadlier.

Monster hunter still works in overwatch, but beyond that there is nothing in this list that can help that much. Not sure what else to add, I can't think of any way for them to gain preferred enemy or anything like that.

 AndrewC wrote:

Iron-Fist wrote:
Um... the FAQ's are the errata... and the whole game is GW's house rules...

You're welcome to your interpretation, this is not a clear cut issue and hasn't been for a long time. I actually emailed GW about it yesterday and they say they always respond within 3 business days. *skeptical fingers crossed*

This is from GW site

What Are Amendments, Errata and FAQs?

It's helpful to people's understanding of these documents that we provide a clear distinction between Errata and FAQs.

Errata provide corrections to the errors that sometimes creep into our books. It is important to note that Errata carry the same 'authority' as the main rules and permanently modify published material; where one of our books says one thing and the errata changes this to something else, the errata takes precedence as the 'correct' version of that material.

Amendments are changes made to our rules in order to make them work within a new context; the most common example would be when a new core rulebook is released which then has a knock-on effect of invalidating existing material. They are not designed to fix newly created weaknesses or shortfalls, but simply to ensure that no rule, unit, item of equipment or whatever else is left incompatible with the current edition of the game.

FAQs, or Frequently Asked Questions are grey areas, points of confusion or places where rules can and have been interpreted in conflicting ways. For each FAQ we provide the answer as determined by the Games Development team; while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation.

So no FaQs are not RaW, but GW official RaI.

Please note that I'm not attacking your argument, that your interpretation is RaW, after all the passage you used from the SM FaQ is a replace para rather than a FaQ. I simply don't like the misconception that FaQs=RaW.

Cheers

Andrew

And yet, they are RAW. Games-Workshop makes the rules. An FAQ comes out that adjusts something, that thing is adjusted. That's how it works, you don't get to ignore FAQs because you don't like them.

And Iron-Fist, please point out how a BA librarian can use a power on the Farsight bomb? They aren't battle brothers. You can't use powers on Allies of Convenience.

The Bomb should be Deep-struck in anyway. Prevents not only the whole "infiltrate" issue, but any confusion about who can go with what when. Everything in reserves, the come out, shenanigans ensue.

 McNinja wrote:

And Iron-Fist, please point out how a BA librarian can use a power on the Farsight bomb? They aren't battle brothers. You can't use powers on Allies of Convenience.

Except he's not targeting a friendly unit or an enemy unit or even targeting anything at all. The cover save granted by the BA Libby is to all units within 6" of the Librarian. As long as a part of the farsight bomb is within 6" of the Librarian, the bomb gets a 5+ cover that would be modified to 2+ thanks to shadowsun.

Mulletdude wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

And Iron-Fist, please point out how a BA librarian can use a power on the Farsight bomb? They aren't battle brothers. You can't use powers on Allies of Convenience.

Except he's not targeting a friendly unit or an enemy unit or even targeting anything at all. The cover save granted by the BA Libby is to all units within 6" of the Librarian. As long as a part of the farsight bomb is within 6" of the Librarian, the bomb gets a 5+ cover that would be modified to 2+ thanks to shadowsun.

Ah, well that works then. Nice little exploit there

Honestly, if you infiltrated that close to my 1850 eldar army, I'd tear you a new one. Eldar have the capacity to field a crapton of AP2. As for the Wraithknight, you might have Hit and Run, but the WK is also I5 and you all hit at the same time. You have a lot of attacks that don't hurt me and the ones that do (Farsight's Dawn Blade) won't do any significant damage.

I like the list. I've thought of doing something similar, but I lacked the money to make it a reality at the time. Against a scant few matchups, you'll have trouble (flyer-heavy lists, GK deathstars*, fast AP2 spam eldar**), but against everything not competitive, you'll wreck face, as you did in the tournament.

*A word on GK deathstars - bear in mind that those Missiles will only do so much, and if you're in plasma range, you're also in Psycannon range. 4 S7 AP4 rending shots per Psycannon, and if they're smart they'll have a bunch. If you get into CC, Halberds strike before Farsight, then swords, then everything else, then Daemonhammers. That is not something you will live to hit and run from.

** Also a word on AP2 eldar - honestly, these will give you a run for your money. D-Scythes will slaughter the entire unit in a turn. A friend of mine managed 40 hits on a single unit with his Wraithguard. Granted, that was prime positioning, but still, it makes you think. Wraithknights with Suncannons, Vypers and War walkers with Starcannons, and lots of troop-mounted shurikens will kill you, and since you have no AA, a single Crimson Hunter will throw a wrench into your schemes.

Using Shadowsun as the warlord offers one option (staying away from infiltration, because i don't want to get into that). Use the 3d6 boost to move fast upfield. You may get shot up, but hey, cover. If you use Farsight as the WL, you have another option; deep strike without scatter. I favor the DS option, but hey.

 McNinja wrote:

Using Shadowsun as the warlord offers one option (staying away from infiltration, because i don't want to get into that). Use the 3d6 boost to move fast upfield. You may get shot up, but hey, cover. If you use Farsight as the WL, you have another option; deep strike without scatter.

I'd like to know an official stance on that too. I really hate being left out in the open for that ruling. It's what is holding me back from buying tau

I could also make an equally nasty Eldar bomb of doom if I summarily ignored the rules as written and made up my own interpretations. :-P

Okay, seriously though. It is a nasty bomb, and local kids will have issues playing against it. But never will experienced GT players have a problem manhandling this list with movement and forcing you to have to expose yourself to something...be it out of LoS assaulters(Striking Scorpions) or the oncoming reserves with ignore-cover (Serpents)

A user named Teschio on here just allies in a vanilla SM Libby with gate. You then deploy
Normally and just gate with 24" T1. Problem solved....until the new SM codex completely changes gate haha.

Teschio is using Gate in a way that is illegal just as much as Iron fist here. But teschio has a much better Farsight bomb build. A proper bomb is probably the most powerful build out there right now. Its only really bad competitive match up is double death&despair Cronair.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Teschio is using Gate in a way that is illegal just as much as Iron fist here. But teschio has a much better Farsight bomb build. A proper bomb is probably the most powerful build out there right now. Its only really bad competitive match up is double death&despair Cronair.

Not as far as I can see. Gate uses Deep Strike the same way a veil of darkness does to move, and since Farsight does not scatter when deep striking, the bomb can move 24" (assuming the Librarian gets the power off) and land with impunity.

Farsight does not scatter when he ARRIVES by deepstrike the DS rules define the arriving part as coming from reserves. Hence it does not work with GoI as that merely places you using the DS rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Farsight does not scatter when he ARRIVES by deepstrike the DS rules define the arriving part as coming from reserves. Hence it does not work with GoI as that merely places you using the DS rules.

This is correct. Arriving refers to entering from reserves, Gate does not satisfy the requirement for Through Boldness, Victory.

Ally SM librarian. Gate of infinity never scattering. Problem solved....until they completely change GoI in the codex lol.

 The Shrike wrote:
Ally SM librarian. Gate of infinity never scattering. Problem solved....until they completely change GoI in the codex lol.

You are encouraging him to play against the rules? Cool.

The Bomb should be Deep-struck in anyway. Prevents not only the whole "infiltrate" issue, but any confusion about who can go with what when. Everything in reserves, the come out, shenanigans ensue.

I thought the same thing... until you don't get him in on turn 2 and your are absolutely screwed. This unit is too expensive not to be on the field, shooting every turn. It needs to deploy, normally or by infiltrate it doesnt really matter which.

*A word on GK deathstars - bear in mind that those Missiles will only do so much, and if you're in plasma range, you're also in Psycannon range. 4 S7 AP4 rending shots per Psycannon, and if they're smart they'll have a bunch. If you get into CC, Halberds strike before Farsight, then swords, then everything else, then Daemonhammers. That is not something you will live to hit and run from.

When a deathstar has 24'' range and moves at infantry speeds... why get in that range? At worst, you pick a side and just plink away at it while zipping away to a perfect 31'' from anything meaner than storm bolters every turn. Even then, 4x psycannons will inflict 1.4 wounds a turn against a 2+ cover save.

** Also a word on AP2 eldar - honestly, these will give you a run for your money. D-Scythes will slaughter the entire unit in a turn. A friend of mine managed 40 hits on a single unit with his Wraithguard. Granted, that was prime positioning, but still, it makes you think. Wraithknights with Suncannons, Vypers and War walkers with Starcannons, and lots of troop-mounted shurikens will kill you, and since you have no AA, a single Crimson Hunter will throw a wrench into your schemes.

Who cares about AP2 when you have a 2+ cover save? Those highly unlikely 40 hits would do 3 wounds. Crimson hunters are terribad, I would literally ignore it the whole game. Vypers and War Walkers are this unit's perfect target and again can't get through the cover save.

Flyers are a weakness, though.

Okay, seriously though. It is a nasty bomb, and local kids will have issues playing against it. But never will experienced GT players have a problem manhandling this list with movement and forcing you to have to expose yourself to something...be it out of LoS assaulters(Striking Scorpions) or the oncoming reserves with ignore-cover (Serpents)

It would take some seriously lucky play to put a unit that moves 6+3d6'' a turn in a position where they can be assaulted by something they can't shoot first. And keeping the serpents in reserve would be perfect: let them come on piece meal and rely on their lil' pinging shots rather than their cargo.

This is correct. Arriving refers to entering from reserves, Gate does not satisfy the requirement for Through Boldness, Victory.

Another argument that goes deep into the semantics of what "arriving" means. Do they mean arriving from reserve? Do they mean "arriving on the table"? It isn't clear. As it is, I'll probably be deploying my Puretide Council normally and just attaching Shadowsun during the infiltration phase to avoid this argument entirely lol.

Who cares about AP2 when you have a 2+ cover save? Those highly unlikely 40 hits would do 3 wounds

Your maths is off here. Not that he'd get anything like 40 hits with 5 flamers unless you are a complete moron. But you are T4 so 40 hits = 20 wounds 7 of which cause ID. With no saves allowed that is your bomb toast. But as stated you'd have to be a complete moron to let that happen. You'd just kill the D-Scythe Serpent first and then they move 6" a turn so you can deal with them at your leisure.

LoL, yeah, I was looking at the heavy version which is just blast, not template. Good catch.

FlingitNow wrote:Teschio is using Gate in a way that is illegal

No it's not

FlingitNow wrote:But teschio has a much better Farsight bomb build. A proper bomb is probably the most powerful build out there right now. Its only really bad competitive match up is double death&despair Cronair.

Yes, i know my list is cool I don't really agree on the double D&D unit as a hard counter though... sure, if he hits you with both units, you are toast. But the trick in this match-up is to never get out of your deployment zone until those two scythes come in... so i have a turn to kill them before they can shoot at the bomb, and a turn is all i need.

FlingitNow wrote:Farsight does not scatter when he ARRIVES by deepstrike the DS rules define the arriving part as coming from reserves. Hence it does not work with GoI as that merely places you using the DS rules.

Is it specifically written that the no-scatter part applies only when arriving from Reserve (like the Interception rule, for example)? No, it's not. The fact that normal deep-strike arrives from Reserve is not enough to assume that if i don't come from Reserve i don't benefit from that Trait. GoI follows all deep-strike rules, therefore the Trait applied to it without any problem. Until a FAQ comes out of course, i am sure this is not the way GW intended the rule to work, but it's the way it works... well, in October this won't matter anymore since the new SM codex will kill the list for good... but until now, it's totally legal.

BTW, i never had any issue with this rule in any tournament i attended to with that list. No opponent complained, and no judge ruled against me. And i have been playing my list a lot in tournaments (winning them, ofc, because the list is severely unbalanced )

Oh, i was almost forgetting: about the Infiltrate thing, of course you can't infiltrate with Shadowsun! Shrike works differently because it's specifically written that it does, but this is not enough to assume that every IC with Infiltrate works in the same way. The best you can do is put Shadowsun just 2" outside of your deployment zone, in coherency with the unit that is inside it. Not really a big deal....

Is it specifically written that the no-scatter part applies only when arriving from Reserve (like the Interception rule, for example)? No, it's not.

The Tau codex disagrees with you here. See page 32 "Your Warlord, and any unit he joins, does not scatter when ARRIVING by Deep Strike" emphasis mine. So when don't you scatter yeap when you are arriving by deep strike. The deep strike rules specify that this is when you are coming from reserve. Lots of other rules have had similar wording and no tournament I know has allowed any of those to work with GoI. That you've gotten away with it doesn't mean it is legal.

Technically speaking, the unit always "arrives by deep-strike" ... this is because the GoI wording says that the unit is removed from the table, and then deployed back within 24" of its original position. You imply that the word "arriving" automatically means "arriving from Reserve", but you can't quote a rule that supports that. Because there is none... Is it an exploit? Certainly. But, RaW, it works...

And it's not about "getting away with it", no tournament judge has ever ruled against me, and basically everyone i know agrees with my interpretation. Which they should, since there is nothing against it in the rules

Page 36 Deep strike rule disagrees with you. Look at the section titled "Arriving by Deep Strike".

BrB page 36 wrote: Roll for the ARRIVAL of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for RESERVES and then deploy them as follows:

What is this telling us about what constitutes arriving from deepsstrike? As you can see this clearly states arriving is from reserve, you then deploy using the rules listed. The GoI jumps to that second part as it does not involve a reserves rule it therefore is not arriving by deep strike...

"ARRIVING FROM RESERVES
At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll aD6 for each
unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve
Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If
the roll is less than 3 it remains in reserve and is rolled for
again next turn."
BRB Pg124

The BRB tells us exactly what arriving means. Arriving from reserves. Gate uses the DS rules for scatter etc it does not let a unit rearrive from reserves as nothing has placed them back into reserves.

The argument is by no means conclusive and should be FAQed, but with the new dex on the horizon that is unlikely. Either way, I'd challenge it and bring it to a TO, something your opponents seem to have not done.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Page 36 Deep strike rule disagrees with you. Look at the section titled "Arriving by Deep Strike".

BrB page 36 wrote: Roll for the ARRIVAL of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for RESERVES and then deploy them as follows:

What is this telling us about what constitutes arriving from deepsstrike? As you can see this clearly states arriving is from reserve, you then deploy using the rules listed. The GoI jumps to that second part as it does not involve a reserves rule it therefore is not arriving by deep strike...

It means that no matter what, you always arrive from deep strike. The gate of infinity power tells you to use deep strike rules when placing the models. They still arrive by deep strike, you just aren't rolling for the arrival out of reserves, because they weren't in reserves. If you had to be in reserves in order to deep strike, God would not work at all. But it does, because you are told to use the deep strike rules. Which includes automatically arriving.

That's not what the rules are telling us. DS tells us it has two distinct parts one is arriving which requires a reserves roll, the other is deployment by DS. GoI jumps straight to the second part it can not be arriving because there is no reserves roll. The rules are very explicit here. If you want GoI to trigger arriving by deep strike you need to find the rule that states GoI rolls for reserves or states you auto arrive from reserve or it to state to arrive by deep strike. You'll notice no such rules exist...

FlingitNow wrote:Page 36 Deep strike rule disagrees with you. Look at the section titled "Arriving by Deep Strike".

BrB page 36 wrote: Roll for the ARRIVAL of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for RESERVES and then deploy them as follows:

What is this telling us about what constitutes arriving from deepsstrike? As you can see this clearly states arriving is from reserve, you then deploy using the rules listed. The GoI jumps to that second part as it does not involve a reserves rule it therefore is not arriving by deep strike...

The phrase you quoted applies to arrival from Reserve. I mean, you also used capital letter for the word RESERVE Does the same phrase apply to a unit that does not arrive from Reserve? Is "arrival" a synonym of "arrival from Reserve"? I don't believe it is, and nowhere in the BRB you will find something like that. Is GoI just a 24" movement with scatter? No, it's a deep-strike. Which means all rules for deep-strike apply: mishaps, impossibility to assault, etc. This includes Farsight's Trait as well. Sure, the thing needs to be FAQed, and i am pretty sure if such a FAQ will arrive it will say Farsight's Trait doesn't work with GoI. But until such a FAQ, it does work. You make the mistake of saying that "arriving" means only from Reserve, but there is no rule supporting that.

You want another proof? BRB, page 422, Gate of Infinity (which btw in every tournament around here is applied to the SM power as well, since it's obviously the same power but with much clearer wording): "It then immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike". Well well well, it seems like the unit ARRIVES using the deep-strike rules And since it arrives, it does not scatter.

Zagman wrote:"ARRIVING FROM RESERVES
At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll aD6 for each
unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve
Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If
the roll is less than 3 it remains in reserve and is rolled for
again next turn."
BRB Pg124

The BRB tells us exactly what arriving means. Arriving from reserves. Gate uses the DS rules for scatter etc it does not let a unit rearrive from reserves as nothing has placed them back into reserves.

The argument is by no means conclusive and should be FAQed, but with the new dex on the horizon that is unlikely. Either way, I'd challenge it and bring it to a TO, something your opponents seem to have not done.

Interesting, you quote the "arriving from Reserve" paragraph to prove that "arriving" means "arriving from Reserve"... sometimes you guys are funny

That phrase applies to units in Reserve (obviously), you have nothing that enables you to extend it to any unit. Find me in the BRB (or in a codex, or in a FAQ, or anywhere...) where it specifically says that "arriving" means only "from Reserve", and you will be right. Until then....

Oh, my opponents (some of them at least) brought it to TOs and judges. They agreed with me every single time. And again, they should have, because i am right


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
If you want GoI to trigger arriving by deep strike you need to find the rule that states GoI rolls for reserves or states you auto arrive from reserve or it to state to arrive by deep strike. You'll notice no such rules exist...

Sure it does, BRB page 422

Sorry crossed purposes GoI from Telekinesis does involve arriving by Deep Strike and would work with Farsight. GoI in the SM book power does not.

The section I quoted tells you that arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve. I highlighted reserve to illustrate that. Read the non-capitalised words too. So this is the rule in the BrB you are looking for that tells you arriving from deep strike is arriving from reserves.

And since the SM GoI doesn't work, the tactic relies on a random roll on the Telekenesis table...which makes it undependable, and thus a not-very-good tactic!

Edit: Comparison of the SM GoI to the BRB GoI

Marine dex wrote:
The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deep strike rules.

BRB wrote:
Remove the target unit from the board. it then immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike.

There's a clear difference in wording.

Wow a bunch of interesting comments, even on this ol' thread!

Yes, i know my list is cool

I'd be interested to check out your version of the Council, if you wanna post a link!

Oh, i was almost forgetting: about the Infiltrate thing, of course you can't infiltrate with Shadowsun! Shrike works differently because it's specifically written that it does, but this is not enough to assume that every IC with Infiltrate works in the same way. The best you can do is put Shadowsun just 2" outside of your deployment zone, in coherency with the unit that is inside it. Not really a big deal....

This actually came up on 3++ yesterday... and a lot of people (Abusepuppy for one) were on my side of it.
http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/tau-codex-review-commander-shadowsun/

in October this won't matter anymore since the new SM codex will kill the list for good... but until now, it's totally legal.

I'm kinda excited to see what that means for Tau. That excitement is like 100% the reason why GW introduced allies.

So everyone in here is caught up in whether this list is legal or not. Can we step away from that? Nothing you say on the Internet will definitively stop Iron from using the list. Can we instead try to identify TACish choices that might minimize the damage?

How about GKs using ServoSkulls to deny infiltration and warp quake to deny DSing? Mind strike missiles or any of the plethora of anti-Psyker nonsense to obliterate the Blood Angels dude, maybe an ulmeathi plasma siphon in an inquisitorial mess to help protect whatever unit I nominate to clear the Deathstar.

How about a Callidus against the BA Psyker unit?

Iron-Fist wrote:I'd be interested to check out your version of the Council, if you wanna post a link!

Sure, here it is (post #2).

Iron-Fist wrote:This actually came up on 3++ yesterday... and a lot of people (Abusepuppy for one) were on my side of it.
http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/tau-codex-review-commander-shadowsun/

This doens't mean they are right... the rules are very, very clear: you can join an IC to a unit either by declaring he is with a unit in Reserve, or by placing him in coherency with the unit. And since models with Infiltrate MUST be deployed last, you MUST deploy the unit BEFORE you deploy the character. Therefore, he can't give the unit the benefits of Infiltrate. Sure, if you read only the Infiltrate rule, you think you can do it, but if you also read the rules for the deployment of ICs, you realize you can't. And that's too bad, because i wouldn't need a Libby if i could Infiltrate that unit... with no infiltrate, the bomb is just not worth its points otherwise.

Iron-Fist wrote:I'm kinda excited to see what that means for Tau. That excitement is like 100% the reason why GW introduced allies.

I'm not... since i am raping left right and center with my list, and my list will be worthless without GoI, i am not excited, i am sad. Ok, it's kinda needed because that list is just overpowered, but still, i would miss winning with it (currently 31-0). Nothing in the new SM codex can be stronger than the current combo.. give me Stormravens for 90 points each and i would STILL prefer GoI...

This doens't mean they are right... the rules are very, very clear: you can join an IC to a unit either by declaring he is with a unit in Reserve, or by placing him in coherency with the unit. And since models with Infiltrate MUST be deployed last, you MUST deploy the unit BEFORE you deploy the character. Therefore, he can't give the unit the benefits of Infiltrate. Sure, if you read only the Infiltrate rule, you think you can do it, but if you also read the rules for the deployment of ICs, you realize you can't. And that's too bad, because i wouldn't need a Libby if i could Infiltrate that unit... with no infiltrate, the bomb is just not worth its points otherwise.

Just pointing out that a lot of prominent RAW peeps have come to the same conclusions I have about it. And I think the unit (with the toughness granted from the 2+ cover at least) is still worth it's points even if that first turn isn't quite as devastating. Might lead me to including 3x missile suits rather than 2.... but I haven't had that decision yet.

Commander Farsight
Commander Shadowsun

Crisis bodyguard team
Crisis bodyguard, C&C node, MSSS, puretide neurochip, retro-thrusters, drone controller
Crisis bodyguard, 2 fusion blasters, target lock, neuroweb system jammer
Crisis bodyguard, 2 plasma rifles, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 plasma rifles, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 plasma rifles, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 missile pods, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 missile pods, target lock
12 gun drones

6 fire warriors
6 fire warriors

skyray, blacksun filter
skyray, blacksun filter
broadsides team
broadside shas'vre, HYMPs, SMSs, early warning override
broadside, HYMPs, SMSs, early warning override
broadside, HYMPs, SMSs, early warning override
6 missile drones


Librarian

5 scouts

1750

Almost exact same set up on the Council, I like it. Don't really worry about troops, huh? Just going for the table every time. Have Sky Rays been working out for you? What is their role, just anti air/light armor alpha strike? An extra markerlight here or there for the Council? And EWO's on the Broadside, what is that for, specifically? Edit: One small issue I see with this list is how to pop AV 14 without using the squad at <9''. The worst thing that can happen to this unit is to get assaulted by terminators, your list (without drop pod meltas or Longstrike's railgun) has a weakness vs the triple landraider armies you still see from time to time.

I'm not... since i am raping left right and center with my list, and my list will be worthless without GoI, i am not excited, i am sad. Ok, it's kinda needed because that list is just overpowered, but still, i would miss winning with it (currently 31-0). Nothing in the new SM codex can be stronger than the current combo.. give me Stormravens for 90 points each and i would STILL prefer GoI...

I'm not sure the farsight list is over powered compared to a lot of things, especially considering you run it with a 4+ cover save and no infiltrate. So you deploy in cover and just take the dangerous terrain tests?

How about GKs using ServoSkulls to deny infiltration and warp quake to deny DSing? Mind strike missiles or any of the plethora of anti-Psyker nonsense to obliterate the Blood Angels dude, maybe an ulmeathi plasma siphon in an inquisitorial mess to help protect whatever unit I nominate to clear the Deathstar.

How about a Callidus against the BA Psyker unit?

All of those would work pretty well, although if you deep strike the bomb you are doing it wrong (too high a chance it wont come in turn 2... need it on the board shooting). A good player will aim at the Blood Angels until they are dead, but since the power goes off at the beginning of the shooting phase, you are always protected against an Alpha strike (very important vs a variety of lists if you lose first turn) and usually will get at least 2 turns of 2+ cover with the right deployment. Honestly, I'm not afraid to just have the assault marines go to ground if they are being focused and just stretch the string of crisis suits back a little farther for the next turn.

Iron-Fist wrote:

Okay, seriously though. It is a nasty bomb, and local kids will have issues playing against it. But never will experienced GT players have a problem manhandling this list with movement and forcing you to have to expose yourself to something...be it out of LoS assaulters(Striking Scorpions) or the oncoming reserves with ignore-cover (Serpents)

It would take some seriously lucky play to put a unit that moves 6+3d6'' a turn in a position where they can be assaulted by something they can't shoot first. And keeping the serpents in reserve would be perfect: let them come on piece meal and rely on their lil' pinging shots rather than their cargo.

It certainly doesn't take 'luck' to trap units with multiple other units. On a 1v1 scenario you'd be correct, but proper army movement would force you into a position where you had to deal with multiple threats at once or suffer death the following turn. Fast Skimmers, Jetbikes and Infiltrators do a good job of 'skirmishing' the enemy into locales forcably without any 'luck'. "Lil pinging shots" that ignore cover does wonders against the bomb you field. So does the Marksman double-toughing Crimson Hunter.

I stand by my statement.

It is a solid deathstar that, like most death stars, will cause massive issues to inexperienced players. Veterans have faced them and their incarnations enough now to be able to deal with them effectively with whatever tourny list they decide to bring.

Edit: Quote issues

Iron-Fist wrote:
Just pointing out that a lot of prominent RAW peeps have come to the same conclusions I have about it. And I think the unit (with the toughness granted from the 2+ cover at least) is still worth it's points even if that first turn isn't quite as devastating. Might lead me to including 3x missile suits rather than 2.... but I haven't had that decision yet.

People that think Shadowsun allows to Infiltrate are definitely not "prominent RAW peeps"... the rules are VERY clear, and any other interpretation is everything but RAW. Quoting Shrike's FAQ means nothing, since it's a FAQ that specifically affects Shrike, you can't infer general rules from that (expecially since the BRB says the opposite, and on top of that the SM codex is an old one, when ICs could join a unit before deployment).

Almost exact same set up on the Council, I like it. Don't really worry about troops, huh? Just going for the table every time. Have Sky Rays been working out for you? What is their role, just anti air/light armor alpha strike? An extra markerlight here or there for the Council? And EWO's on the Broadside, what is that for, specifically? Edit: One small issue I see with this list is how to pop AV 14 without using the squad at <9''. The worst thing that can happen to this unit is to get assaulted by terminators, your list (without drop pod meltas or Longstrike's railgun) has a weakness vs the triple landraider armies you still see from time to time.

I don't need troops. They start in Reserve, when they arrive they hide, at least 50% of my games they don't even fire once. All i need is one troop to conquer an objective on my table side (close to the Broadsides for added safety, and if possible out of sight/behind cover - my troops go to ground if shot at), since the opponent won't have anything to conquer his objectives (most games, he won't have anything on the table at all...).

Skyrays are absolutely invaluable. If Hammerheads costed half of what they do, i would STILL pick 2 Skyrays over 4 Hammerheads. They provide you with the much needed AA, they can deal with threatening vehicles on turn one (like Manticores, for example), once they are out of missiles, that is by turn 2 at most, they become extremely low priority targets that still give ML support, they are absolutely needed for the list to be competitive.

EWO on the Broadsides is just incredibly strong. Those suits shoot like madmen, being able to pick off units that deep-strikes near you or a flyer (or a doom on spore, that is a real threat otherwise) is great. I would get EWOs even for 20 points each, and they cost a quarter of that... I can't see any reason to give them something else a support system. Best equip in the codex. Plus, there is a seriously dirty but legal trick with Interception (which i won't disclose here, i like to keep some aces up my sleeve )

AV14 are no problem at all. With my movement, i can pop a LR and still move (in the assault phase) to avoid getting assaulted by what's inside the other 2 (or by what was inside the one i destroyed). Faced it, and it was a very easy game. You just have to be smart about your positioning. As i said more than once, this list seems easy to use, and versus a clueless kid even a monkey could win with it, but versus experienced players if you make mistakes you lose. Getting assaulted by termies is a mistake, since you can avoid it with a little skill. I think this is the hardest Tau list to use effectively, but also the most powerful.

I'm not sure the farsight list is over powered compared to a lot of things, especially considering you run it with a 4+ cover save and no infiltrate. So you deploy in cover and just take the dangerous terrain tests?

Sure i do (or i move just outside a terrain and JSJ into it afterwards, if range is an issue, but if possible i tend to not rely on those 2D6 to be safe). I lose one or two drones, but my unit will have a 2+ cover save. 24" movement is enough to hop from terrain to terrain. I usually have to do it for the first 2 turns though, after that anything that can threaten me is gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
It is a solid deathstar that, like most death stars, will cause massive issues to inexperienced players. Veterans have faced them and their incarnations enough now to be able to deal with them effectively with whatever tourny list they decide to bring.

Actually, i heard that some teams that will attend the ETC are thinking about bringing this list. And if they do, since ETC is the biggest tournament in all of Europe, with the best players of the continent, it means the list is strong even versus veterans (and extremely experienced ones). Deathstars generally have some flaws that allow them to be countered (single-target, slow after they drop, reduced survivability to focus fire, etc), but a Farsight Bomb is unique because it possesses none of these flaws.

I can't see this list being all that powerful in a tournament setting. Doesn't everyone need to take an extremely potent anti-Psyker unit to be competitive at all? Any list that can effectively target a single model or small unit and destroy it shouldn't have too much trouble with this. I always try to include this capability since potent Psykers are force multipliers, while almost every other codex unit in the game is more additive(?) in nature. (Edit) REMOVING Two models turn this list from great into mediocre: Shadowsun and the Librarian of whichever variety.

Bigfashizzel wrote:
I can't see this list being all that powerful in a tournament setting. Doesn't everyone need to take an extremely potent anti-Psyker unit to be competitive at all? Any list that can effectively target a single model or small unit and destroy it shouldn't have too much trouble with this. I always try to include this capability since potent Psykers are force multipliers, while almost every other codex unit in the game is more additive(?) in nature. Two models turn this list from great into mediocre: Shadowsun and the Librarian of whichever variety.

Yeah, sure, the two models that make it mediocre are the ones that give 2+ cover save to the whole unit and 24" precise movement each turn (if you are referring to the BA Librarian, you are right, he IS mediocre, but the SM one is absolutely necessary)... i am sure a pure Farsight Bomb, that has to rely on Reserve rolls to hope to do something, is not that mobile once it drops (thus being useless versus split forces) and can be killed pretty easily with some focus fire, is MUCH more effective... just out of curiosity, have you ever seen this list (i mean the one with SM allies) in action? Because before it became popular, a lot of people thought it wasn't strong at all, but after they got tabled in 4 or 5 turns they changed their mind.... I don't know about how it works in the US, but in Europe that list is feared a lot (and rightly so). And as i said, it will likely be brought to the the ETC, so i guess the best players in all of Europe don't realize it's not tournament-worthy...

Mis-stated. I meant removing the two units turned it from great into mediocre. They are both absolutely necessary.

I think my dark elder list could give this a run for its money. It packs 8 flamers that can get to you by turn 2 easy and is apd6 so statistically 4 of those will pierce your armor as well. Depending on how well I roll that hole unit could be gone in 1 turn. Now my type of de list isn't very common so you probably wont have to worry about it, but its still something to consider.

Teschio wrote:

Actually, i heard that some teams that will attend the ETC are thinking about bringing this list. And if they do, since ETC is the biggest tournament in all of Europe, with the best players of the continent, it means the list is strong even versus veterans (and extremely experienced ones). Deathstars generally have some flaws that allow them to be countered (single-target, slow after they drop, reduced survivability to focus fire, etc), but a Farsight Bomb is unique because it possesses none of these flaws.

Not quite, this list in the ETC will be a prey list. Your farsight bomb list does have flaws, and can be countered by a few things, I have beat a very simular list to this, the only difference being no libby (iirc it was at 1650) and kroot instead of FW's. The screamer council laughs at this as ignore cover with bolt of change and infernal gateway and flickering fire really do a number on them and they can tank a lot of shots. Add in misfortune and prescience which you have a good chance of getting misfortune.

It certainly doesn't take 'luck' to trap units with multiple other units. On a 1v1 scenario you'd be correct, but proper army movement would force you into a position where you had to deal with multiple threats at once or suffer death the following turn. Fast Skimmers, Jetbikes and Infiltrators do a good job of 'skirmishing' the enemy into locales forcably without any 'luck'. "Lil pinging shots" that ignore cover does wonders against the bomb you field. So does the Marksman double-toughing Crimson Hunter.

I'm just saying this isn't a fool proof technique, and with smart positioning on your own part you can probably avoid it. Infiltrate especially helps this.

It is a solid deathstar that, like most death stars, will cause massive issues to inexperienced players. Veterans have faced them and their incarnations enough now to be able to deal with them effectively with whatever tourny list they decide to bring.

Yeah, I'm not completely sold on my incarnation of this list. Comparing my list to Teschio's, I can see how his covers a whole lot more of the gaps, I am especially fond of the EWO broadsides, who single handedly counter a lot of "enter from reserve" tactics like D&D squads and Drop Pods. Then the drones can shoot at a separate target in your shooting phase. Just seems really good, a better configuration overall, although it depends significantly more on terrain for the vital 2+ cover save. I would love to see if the blood angels librarian could replace the GoI librarian. It just feels so strong, completely denying all the shenanigans used to kill things with cover saves, the biggest being you can spread perfectly to prevent templates and pie plates. I could see the BA librarian being better, I will still use it but I bet it doesn't catch on until after the new SM codex drops.

I don't need troops. They start in Reserve, when they arrive they hide, at least 50% of my games they don't even fire once. All i need is one troop to conquer an objective on my table side (close to the Broadsides for added safety, and if possible out of sight/behind cover - my troops go to ground if shot at), since the opponent won't have anything to conquer his objectives (most games, he won't have anything on the table at all...).

I see what you're getting at, but it is hard to give up even the option of winning by objectives. With only 2 troops, all of which are minimum 6, T3/4+/LD 7 models... I dunno, if they die to even a little bit of stray fire... it means that the an enemy just has to survive until the end of the game and hold a single objective to actually WIN. This unit is really really good, but I'm not sure you can rely on it to table every opponent every time. Just seems safer to include the option of playing the objectives.

I find the drop pod marines and 30x kroot to be a pretty flexible, semi-durable scoring force that can fill a variety of rolls. 10x kroot themselves are definitely worth the 6 pts over 6x firewarriors, because of the utility of infiltrate and outflank, the ability to make kroot loops and walls, the greater number of shots and wounds inflicted (4 MEQ wounds for 12 pulse shots, 5 for 20 kroot rifle shots), and the greater toughness due to higher model count (still not amazing, but definitely better).

Skyrays are absolutely invaluable. If Hammerheads costed half of what they do, i would STILL pick 2 Skyrays over 4 Hammerheads. They provide you with the much needed AA, they can deal with threatening vehicles on turn one (like Manticores, for example), once they are out of missiles, that is by turn 2 at most, they become extremely low priority targets that still give ML support, they are absolutely needed for the list to be competitive.

I see the utility of a sky ray, but it's hard for me to buy into them. 6 seekers just isn't that much damage. All 6 of them kill .6666 AV 12 units. Not even a single chimera, statistically! Compared to Longstrike's .51 a turn! And he is a pretty cost-effective unit vs AV14 as well. I see why you like it, it's just hard for me to buy into with numbers as limited as that. Maybe 1 for the utility of the markerlights in addition to the missiles. [equation: # of AV 12 vehicles killed=(# of shots, 6)*(chance to hit, 2/3)*[(change to take off a hull point, 1/2)/(number of hull points, 3)+(chance to penetrate, 1/3)*(chance to destroy vehicle, 1/6)]

EWO on the Broadsides is just incredibly strong. Those suits shoot like madmen, being able to pick off units that deep-strikes near you or a flyer (or a doom on spore, that is a real threat otherwise) is great. I would get EWOs even for 20 points each, and they cost a quarter of that... I can't see any reason to give them something else a support system. Best equip in the codex. Plus, there is a seriously dirty but legal trick with Interception (which i won't disclose here, i like to keep some aces up my sleeve )

As I mentioned above, I think you make a great point and I 100% agree. EWO broadsides with max missile drones seem like they could be pretty good and cover a lot of wholes people have pointed out in the list. It really helps cover the weakness to D&D squads, or Drop Pods, or deepstrikers, or even Helldrakes (kinda).

AV14 are no problem at all. With my movement, i can pop a LR and still move (in the assault phase) to avoid getting assaulted by what's inside the other 2 (or by what was inside the one i destroyed). Faced it, and it was a very easy game. You just have to be smart about your positioning. As i said more than once, this list seems easy to use, and versus a clueless kid even a monkey could win with it, but versus experienced players if you make mistakes you lose. Getting assaulted by termies is a mistake, since you can avoid it with a little skill. I think this is the hardest Tau list to use effectively, but also the most powerful.

your technique for killing landraiders leaves a LOT up to chance. You rely on the pretty good chance of exploding the landraider, but it puts you an average of 16'' away. This is in a range where a lot of units can threaten assault,doing the one thing that can really bring down the council. It just seems like, especially without Shadowsun's 3d6, you're adding more chances to get hurt into the equation. I think drop pod melta guns, or Longstrike, are flexible, useful tools that cover this particular vulnerability.

Sure i do (or i move just outside a terrain and JSJ into it afterwards, if range is an issue, but if possible i tend to not rely on those 2D6 to be safe). I lose one or two drones, but my unit will have a 2+ cover save. 24" movement is enough to hop from terrain to terrain. I usually have to do it for the first 2 turns though, after that anything that can threaten me is gone.

Some risk, some dependent on the board, but doing the math, dangerous terrain isn't THAT bad these days, with armor saves allowed to be taken. Like I mentioned above, the main problem is going to be the need to huddle into terrain, more vulnerable to blast plates that way. Not a huge difficulty, but one that could hurt depending on the game board and opponent.

Actually, i heard that some teams that will attend the ETC are thinking about bringing this list. And if they do, since ETC is the biggest tournament in all of Europe, with the best players of the continent, it means the list is strong even versus veterans (and extremely experienced ones). Deathstars generally have some flaws that allow them to be countered (single-target, slow after they drop, reduced survivability to focus fire, etc), but a Farsight Bomb is unique because it possesses none of these flaws.

100% agree. I have contended exactly this thought since I first started playing this list. It has almost none of the flaws and weaknesses in other deathstars, due to its range, its mobility, the sheer magnitude of its firepower, and its ability to 100% cost effectively take down MSU.

I can't see this list being all that powerful in a tournament setting. Doesn't everyone need to take an extremely potent anti-Psyker unit to be competitive at all? Any list that can effectively target a single model or small unit and destroy it shouldn't have too much trouble with this. I always try to include this capability since potent Psykers are force multipliers, while almost every other codex unit in the game is more additive(?) in nature. (Edit) REMOVING Two models turn this list from great into mediocre: Shadowsun and the Librarian of whichever variety.

Well, in the unit independent characters are all but invincible, automatically passing LOS rolls. The librarian is less secure, and that is one reason I think Teschio's list is superior to mine. A smart of resourceful player could single him out reasonably well, leaving me with only the first turn with an auto 2+ cover save. There aren't many psychic defences that help vs non-targeting powers,

Yeah, sure, the two models that make it mediocre are the ones that give 2+ cover save to the whole unit and 24" precise movement each turn (if you are referring to the BA Librarian, you are right, he IS mediocre, but the SM one is absolutely necessary)... i am sure a pure Farsight Bomb, that has to rely on Reserve rolls to hope to do something, is not that mobile once it drops (thus being useless versus split forces) and can be killed pretty easily with some focus fire, is MUCH more effective... just out of curiosity, have you ever seen this list (i mean the one with SM allies) in action?

A deepstriking farsight bomb is stupid, it needs to be deployed to be effective, you're right there. I don't think the BA librarian is "mediocre" though, I had considered your version quite a bit and i liked the Shadowsun Warlord power so much, and the guaranteed 5+ cover power added so much to the army, that I decided on the BA. It works pretty well and has some advantages to it. I very much agree with your ideas on broadsides, however, I think they will be included in my lists from now on.

Because before it became popular, a lot of people thought it wasn't strong at all, but after they got tabled in 4 or 5 turns they changed their mind.... I don't know about how it works in the US, but in Europe that list is feared a lot (and rightly so). And as i said, it will likely be brought to the the ETC, so i guess the best players in all of Europe don't realize it's not tournament-worthy...

I agree, it is a list that break a lot of rules of thumb (don't overdo independent characters, don't put all your eggs in one basket, troops should be a major part of the army) and a lot of people seem to just dismiss it. But the sheer numbers involved are intimidating.

Iron-Fist wrote:
I'm just saying this isn't a fool proof technique, and with smart positioning on your own part you can probably avoid it. Infiltrate especially helps this.

No it doens't since the unit can't Infiltrate I know you disagree with this, but page 39 of the BRB is pretty clear on that.

I see what you're getting at, but it is hard to give up even the option of winning by objectives. With only 2 troops, all of which are minimum 6, T3/4+/LD 7 models... I dunno, if they die to even a little bit of stray fire... it means that the an enemy just has to survive until the end of the game and hold a single objective to actually WIN. This unit is really really good, but I'm not sure you can rely on it to table every opponent every time. Just seems safer to include the option of playing the objectives.

First, i have 3 troops (scouts are used in the same exact way, they start in Reserve and hide. Plus, they can enter from a table side if i need to). The opponent can't win even if he kills all my troops, because maybe i can't table him, but i can make damn sure that his scoring units die as well. Then i win with Linebreaker, First Blood (almost ensured with this list, expecially if you have first turn) and Warlord (he sure as hell can't kill mine...). This is probably the only list with minimal scoring units that works (i guess Necrons with 3 x 5 warriors on scythes and 18 wraiths is the only other one).

I find the drop pod marines and 30x kroot to be a pretty flexible, semi-durable scoring force that can fill a variety of rolls. 10x kroot themselves are definitely worth the 6 pts over 6x firewarriors, because of the utility of infiltrate and outflank, the ability to make kroot loops and walls, the greater number of shots and wounds inflicted (4 MEQ wounds for 12 pulse shots, 5 for 20 kroot rifle shots), and the greater toughness due to higher model count (still not amazing, but definitely better).

Shooting with troops means exposing them. And since those things shoot less than Broadsides, i prefer to have those. This list is pure firepower.

I see the utility of a sky ray, but it's hard for me to buy into them. 6 seekers just isn't that much damage. All 6 of them kill .6666 AV 12 units. Not even a single chimera, statistically! Compared to Longstrike's .51 a turn! And he is a pretty cost-effective unit vs AV14 as well. I see why you like it, it's just hard for me to buy into with numbers as limited as that. Maybe 1 for the utility of the markerlights in addition to the missiles. [equation: # of AV 12 vehicles killed=(# of shots, 6)*(chance to hit, 2/3)*[(change to take off a hull point, 1/2)/(number of hull points, 3)+(chance to penetrate, 1/3)*(chance to destroy vehicle, 1/6)]

First, i don't need to destroy a vehicle. A Manticore that has a crew shaken/stunned result or a weapon destroyed result if perfectly fine. Second, you made your calculations with BS4, which means that none of my 2 networked MLs hits. Third, they are very good vs MCs too (with a single ML hit, there is a good chance to kill a Tervigon on turn 1, or at least wound it enough that a few plasma shots will kill it. Hell, even without any ML hit they do 4 wounds on a Wraithknight!). Forth, and most importantly, they provide AA, something your list lacks a lot. And in the meta around here, there are quite a few flyers. Heldrakes are dangerous enough, you don't want them to shoot twice...

your technique for killing landraiders leaves a LOT up to chance. You rely on the pretty good chance of exploding the landraider, but it puts you an average of 16'' away. This is in a range where a lot of units can threaten assault,doing the one thing that can really bring down the council. It just seems like, especially without Shadowsun's 3d6, you're adding more chances to get hurt into the equation. I think drop pod melta guns, or Longstrike, are flexible, useful tools that cover this particular vulnerability.

Well, the chances of exploding a LR are really, really high compared to what you have.... 4 twin-linked Fusion Blasters, 2 of which at BS5, with Tank Hunter as well! Your meltaguns are a lot less effective than that... plus, consider that Overwatch kills 2.666 Terminators on average, plus the ones that will die with Farsight's attacks (1.19 wounds, and maybe some 1s rolled on armor saves from Crisis attacks too, they still have S5). If 2 terminators get to attack me, you are being lucky. I can definitely survive that: they will kill drones, plus i will have H&R, if i fail my morale check i have ADSKNF, which is even better, and even if i fail my H&R roll, i can still disengage with GoI next turn! As you can see, i am not that scared of termies, because i saw what i can do agains them... oh, when i was talking about proper placement, i meant using terrain as well. Moving and assaulting through difficult terrain will slow them a lot.

Some risk, some dependent on the board, but doing the math, dangerous terrain isn't THAT bad these days, with armor saves allowed to be taken. Like I mentioned above, the main problem is going to be the need to huddle into terrain, more vulnerable to blast plates that way. Not a huge difficulty, but one that could hurt depending on the game board and opponent.

Sure, all my models huddle together, but blast plates mean nothing when you have a 2+ cover save... I agree it depends on terrain, but luckily around here tables are not short on terrain.

Well, in the unit independent characters are all but invincible, automatically passing LOS rolls. The librarian is less secure, and that is one reason I think Teschio's list is superior to mine. A smart of resourceful player could single him out reasonably well, leaving me with only the first turn with an auto 2+ cover save. There aren't many psychic defences that help vs non-targeting powers.

This is actually the main problem with your list (apart from the fact that you are a lot less mobile): a smart opponent will throw everything he has on the Librarian unit and kill him. After that, either the bodyguards are unprotected (so they die with saturation, 4+ cover save is not enough) or you are forced to stay in a terrain, therefore limiting a lot you effectiveness.

No it doens't since the unit can't Infiltrate I know you disagree with this, but page 39 of the BRB is pretty clear on that.

I explained my arguments on this earlier in the thread, I'm pretty much just running with it as a given at this point.

First, i have 3 troops (scouts are used in the same exact way, they start in Reserve and hide. Plus, they can enter from a table side if i need to). The opponent can't win even if he kills all my troops, because maybe i can't table him, but i can make damn sure that his scoring units die as well. Then i win with Linebreaker, First Blood (almost ensured with this list, expecially if you have first turn) and Warlord (he sure as hell can't kill mine...). This is probably the only list with minimal scoring units that works (i guess Necrons with 3 x 5 warriors on scythes and 18 wraiths is the only other one)....

Shooting with troops means exposing them. And since those things shoot less than Broadsides, i prefer to have those. This list is pure firepower.

Unless he also holds his troops in reserve, plays the same game you do. Just saying... its a potential flaw in the list that you may want to address at some point. I know the list puts out a lot of fire power, but there are some armies that can weather it and many that can try and dodge it for a few turns. I think being able to confidently secure objectives would help round it out quite a bit.

First, i don't need to destroy a vehicle. A Manticore that has a crew shaken/stunned result or a weapon destroyed result if perfectly fine. Second, you made your calculations with BS4, which means that none of my 2 networked MLs hits. Third, they are very good vs MCs too (with a single ML hit, there is a good chance to kill a Tervigon on turn 1, or at least wound it enough that a few plasma shots will kill it. Hell, even without any ML hit they do 4 wounds on a Wraithknight!). Forth, and most importantly, they provide AA, something your list lacks a lot. And in the meta around here, there are quite a few flyers. Heldrakes are dangerous enough, you don't want them to shoot twice...

At BS 5... each one would inflict 2.8 wounds on a tervigon in cover. And then they are out of ammo. And they really can't hurt a whole lot, adding a markerlight hit pushes them up to .74 AV12/turn. The markerlight hits are useful though, if only to increase the snapshot power of Farsight. I could see taking one, but I'd be loath to limit my anti AV14 for it. It isn't bad, I just don't think it's actually as clear a choice as you are professing right now.

Well, the chances of exploding a LR are really, really high compared to what you have.... 4 twin-linked Fusion Blasters, 2 of which at BS5, with Tank Hunter as well! Your meltaguns are a lot less effective than that... plus, consider that Overwatch kills 2.666 Terminators on average, plus the ones that will die with Farsight's attacks (1.19 wounds, and maybe some 1s rolled on armor saves from Crisis attacks too, they still have S5). If 2 terminators get to attack me, you are being lucky. I can definitely survive that: they will kill drones, plus i will have H&R, if i fail my morale check i have ADSKNF, which is even better, and even if i fail my H&R roll, i can still disengage with GoI next turn! As you can see, i am not that scared of termies, because i saw what i can do agains them... oh, when i was talking about proper placement, i meant using terrain as well. Moving and assaulting through difficult terrain will slow them a lot.

ATSKNF is really good, and I like that GoI disengage trick, hadnt thought about that before. I just worry about when this situation goes wrong, or if there are multiple land raiders. Maybe my fear is unfounded.

Sure, all my models huddle together, but blast plates mean nothing when you have a 2+ cover save... I agree it depends on terrain, but luckily around here tables are not short on terrain.

2+ except from things that ignore cover, like the deadly Helldrake. It's just a trade off, I still think in most situations the SM librarian comes out ahead but the BA librarian has an advantage here and on boards with little useable area terrain.

This is actually the main problem with your list (apart from the fact that you are a lot less mobile): a smart opponent will throw everything he has on the Librarian unit and kill him. After that, either the bodyguards are unprotected (so they die with saturation, 4+ cover save is not enough) or you are forced to stay in a terrain, therefore limiting a lot you effectiveness.

I agree. 10x assault marines with a 5+ cover save (4+ if they GTG), are not invincible. But as long as the libby is alive, you get that whole next turn of shooting because it happens at the beginning of their shooting phase. Lets you deploy without depending on terrain even going second against big alpha strikes. And right now, you are relying on terrain for your cover save... limiting your effectiveness. That's the advantage of my particular variation.

If I may ask, what exactly is your plan if/when you face a horde army? I may be wrong, but im not noticing enough firepower in your list to stop say 180 orks charging at you.

Just the deathstar. With the drones, the unit kills about 23 ork EQ's every turn. In my list, kroot, the hammerhead, and assault marines help. In Teschio's his broadsides add a lot of firepower in that regard, plus markerlights from the skyrays.

Did you include the fact that they would have a 5+ cover save, assuming you did then that would mean you would be able to kill roughly half the boyz off before their in charge range, but even then that's 90 boyz you still gotta deal with, and one squad alone could tarpit your deathstar down for at least 2 turns, while the other two start tearing into the rest of your army, also there would most likely be about 20+ lootas in the backfield shooting at your kroot and hammerhead the hole time which could possibly mean the deathstar is the only thing left by the time the boyz get to you.

Also a nob biker deathstar could be a big problem if they can get to your deathstar fast enough.

The list is good but as with all deathstars, it isn't unbeatable.

BA is an interesting ally choice. Frankly, it wouldn't be my ally of choice. Space marines are better, though there is much controversy surrounding the GoI librarian. However the weakness of this build is that I believe you lose your assault move if a model without it joins the unit.

The best ally would be Eldar. This is what I would add:

Farseer - Jetbike
3x Guardian Jetbikes
3x Guardian Jetbikes (I prefer 2 of these units if you can fit them in.)
10x Warp Spiders (optional, though I really like them)

For such a small investment, you bring a lot to the deathstar and army:

1. Psychic defense.

2. Awesome psychic powers such as Fortune, Doom, Guide, Prescience, Forewarning (for close combat) and Misfortune.

3. Highly mobile scoring units

4. The ability to still move 3D6" in the assault phase (assuming Shadowsun is the Warlord).


Also, your list is good, but I can see much improvement just by adding some riptides.


This would probably be my ideal Farsight list at 1850:


Farsight
Shadowsun
"The 7 Dwarves"

Farseer - Jetbike

3x10 Kroots
3x Jetbikes

Riptide - EWO, VT, Fusion, IA
Riptide - EWO, VT, SMS, HBC


Now you have a highly mobile army with hardly any static parts. The farseer can dole out Prescience/Guide to the riptides to minimize Overheats as well.

Deathstar ignores cover saves. And you kill the ones that are closest, infantry aren't fast enough to catch this unit (either with shadowsun's warlord trait or a GoI librarian).

Nob Bikers are tough, but they'll get 10 wounds in one turn of rapid fire shooting (assuming invuls and FNP). And they can't really catch the unit if it moves intelligently.

x2 Necron death and despair squads would annihilate that deathstar in a shooting phase for a fraction of the points with that lovely ap1 flamer wounding on 2's

Next

Iron-Fist wrote:
Deathstar ignores cover saves. And you kill the ones that are closest, infantry aren't fast enough to catch this unit (either with shadowsun's warlord trait or a GoI librarian).

Nob Bikers are tough, but they'll get 10 wounds in one turn of rapid fire shooting (assuming invuls and FNP). And they can't really catch the unit if it moves intelligently.

Well catching the unit isn't the question, you cant simply go around a horde all you can do is move back until the inevitable happens, but the question would be how long it takes the horde to get to you.

Jy2 that list has literally no anti air. Your bomb gets nailed by Helldrakes and D&D squads in Nightscythes. Plus you have no real way to de-mech your opponent so your bomb is going to waste the first few valuable turns killing Rhinos and Chimeras and the like.

Also why VTs on Riptides? Wasted points. Plays the Riptides need ML support to be fully effective.

Riptides are a horrid mix with the bomb.

It also seems you haven't taken drones on the bomb which is always a mistake.

I can't see D&D squads causing Teschio's list a huge problem unless he's aggressive with the bomb. But they do provide a strong tactical advantage of forcing him to be defensive with his bomb until the squads come on. You need multiple squads with multiple flamers each though as 1 flamer would just mean a load of dead drones.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Jy2 that list has literally no anti air. Your bomb gets nailed by Helldrakes and D&D squads in Nightscythes. Plus you have no real way to de-mech your opponent so your bomb is going to waste the first few valuable turns killing Rhinos and Chimeras and the like.

Also why VTs on Riptides? Wasted points. Plays the Riptides need ML support to be fully effective.

Riptides are a horrid mix with the bomb.

It also seems you haven't taken drones on the bomb which is always a mistake.

I can't see D&D squads causing Teschio's list a huge problem unless he's aggressive with the bomb. But they do provide a strong tactical advantage of forcing him to be defensive with his bomb until the squads come on. You need multiple squads with multiple flamers each though as 1 flamer would just mean a load of dead drones.

I'm looking to build a bomb list and was wondering about this. I'll admit I'm attracted to riptides due to their mobility. Why are they bad at anti air? My meta is not majorly flyer focused, why is the synergy bad with the riptides?

I'm building my list at 1850, btw.

Riptides are bad at AA because they don't do much damage to flyers for their points. At 200+ with VTs they either get 1.5 S7 hits with Ion (even unguided Warp Spiders get 3 S7 hits for 190 points) or 4 S6 hits. The HBC needs Nova charge to be a threat but you need a 3+ to get that. Hence the Earth cast pilot from the new supplement is the only way to really make the Riptide a serious threat to flyers. Even then it is not massively effective, but decent AA.

The reason the Riptides don't dovetail well with the bomb is they do largely the same job. This means you don't cover any of your weaknesses. Plus the Riptides require ML support to be truly effective which adds further points to their cost whilst offering up a very soft target in the shape of pathfinders for First Blood.

So your list will then lack AA, whilst it will also have the bomb having to do the inefficient job of killing transports. And give up First Blood easily...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Jy2 that list has literally no anti air. Your bomb gets nailed by Helldrakes and D&D squads in Nightscythes. Plus you have no real way to de-mech your opponent so your bomb is going to waste the first few valuable turns killing Rhinos and Chimeras and the like.

Also why VTs on Riptides? Wasted points. Plays the Riptides need ML support to be fully effective.

Riptides are a horrid mix with the bomb.

It also seems you haven't taken drones on the bomb which is always a mistake.

There are drones. I just didn't feel like listing out everything in the bomb so just called it the 7 dwarves.

Riptides are my anti-air solution. The bomb can do it in a pinch as well. Personally, I'd rather take 2 HBC's over 1 HBC + 1 IA for the riptides, but everyone seems to be in love with the Ions. Anyways, the 2 are interchangeable, though I'd recommend at least 1 HBC for AA duties.

I really don't understand your opinion of why riptides are "horrid" with the bomb. They make the army fully mobile and can actually get away from threats.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Riptides are bad at AA because they don't do much damage to flyers for their points. At 200+ with VTs they either get 1.5 S7 hits with Ion (even unguided Warp Spiders get 3 S7 hits for 190 points) or 4 S6 hits. The HBC needs Nova charge to be a threat but you need a 3+ to get that. Hence the Earth cast pilot from the new supplement is the only way to really make the Riptide a serious threat to flyers. Even then it is not massively effective, but decent AA.

The reason the Riptides don't dovetail well with the bomb is they do largely the same job. This means you don't cover any of your weaknesses. Plus the Riptides require ML support to be truly effective which adds further points to their cost whilst offering up a very soft target in the shape of pathfinders for First Blood.

So your list will then lack AA, whilst it will also have the bomb having to do the inefficient job of killing transports. And give up First Blood easily...

Are you kidding me? Riptides bad at AA? Have you ever tried a riptide with skyfire, inteceptor and 12 HBC rending shots and Prescience/Guide?

But more importantly, the threat they represent to flyers will keep the flyers away or at least slow down their alpha-strike.

Moreover, the SMS can actually hurt light flyers as well as to deny their jink saves.

Prescience/Guide makes for a decent substitute for markerlights in regards to shooting accuracy.

If you don't think the tides can hurt transports, then you really under-estimate the riptide. Nova-charged HBC's can hurt most vehicles, including land raiders. It actually has a better chance than a lascannon to damage AV14.

As for hurting MSU transports, hey....this is a deathstar list. Targeting multiple units will always be a weakness of such builds. So what's new?

Are you kidding me? Riptides bad at AA? Have you ever tried a riptide with skyfire, inteceptor and 12 HBC rending shots and Prescience/Guide?

With Prescience/Guide and a successful nova charge a HBC Riptide is decent at AA. But you need the Nova charge to work which you can't rely on without an Earthcast pilot. Yes the Farseer helps too. 9 S6 rending hits on a flyer is fairly good and should get a pen through against a Helldrake and a pen and glance against a jinking Nightscythe and will kill an AV10 flyer. However 4 S6 hits or 1.5 S7 hits isn't a threat to a flyer.

Remember a flyer heavy opponent will kill your Farseer first. He's only got 3 T4 wounds for company and will go away to any concerted fire. Then no guide/prescience for you and you fail that 3+ and you're back to 4 S6 hits and 1.5 S7 for about 450 points of your army shooting. So yes Riptides are poor AA situationally with a Farseer and the right equipment than can be decent AA. If you're basing your lists AA on Riptides you are in trouble if your opponent has brought competitive Necrons or Chaos Marines.

Whilst the prescience/guide can help the Riptide it is the ignores cover that makes the Ion really work.

Yes the HBC Riptide can and does support the Bomb much better than the superior Ion variant. But if and only if you can consistently Nova charge the cannon. Why take that risk when so much else in the Tau codex can support the bomb without relying on a 3+ each turn?

flaming tadpole wrote:Did you include the fact that they would have a 5+ cover save, assuming you did then that would mean you would be able to kill roughly half the boyz off before their in charge range, but even then that's 90 boyz you still gotta deal with, and one squad alone could tarpit your deathstar down for at least 2 turns, while the other two start tearing into the rest of your army, also there would most likely be about 20+ lootas in the backfield shooting at your kroot and hammerhead the hole time which could possibly mean the deathstar is the only thing left by the time the boyz get to you.

Also a nob biker deathstar could be a big problem if they can get to your deathstar fast enough.

No, they won't have Cover save. With 180, my Broadsides can find a unit with no cover save to shoot at (180 orks ALL in cover?), and SMS Ignore Cover anyways. The Bomb itself Ignores Cover thanks to MSSS. And they won't tarpit me because they will never be able to assault me. With OP's list no, they can't be avoided, and sooner or later they will assault, but with mine, 24" movement (+2D6") is more than enough to ensure those boyz will never assault me.

Lootas have a hard time killing Skyrays (which since they won't move all game, will be deployed in cover). Behind cover, 30 lootas that ALL roll a 3 on the number of shots do 2.5 glancing hits on one. Broadsides will be under cover too, and since nothing has AP2 i won't even put drones on the front.

Nob bikers? Yes please.... i can kill quite a few of them easily, they will never be able to survive long enough to assault me.

jy2 wrote:BA is an interesting ally choice. Frankly, it wouldn't be my ally of choice. Space marines are better, though there is much controversy surrounding the GoI librarian. However the weakness of this build is that I believe you lose your assault move if a model without it joins the unit.

You don't lose the JSJ movement. Simply, the character who is not Jet Pack Infantry doesn't move, but the rest of the unit does, while keeping coherency. Think about it a little, and you will see how that can be exploited to get a 5-6" movement each turn.

The best ally would be Eldar. This is what I would add:

Farseer - Jetbike
3x Guardian Jetbikes
3x Guardian Jetbikes (I prefer 2 of these units if you can fit them in.)
10x Warp Spiders (optional, though I really like them)

For such a small investment, you bring a lot to the deathstar and army:

1. Psychic defense.

2. Awesome psychic powers such as Fortune, Doom, Guide, Prescience, Forewarning (for close combat) and Misfortune.

3. Highly mobile scoring units

4. The ability to still move 3D6" in the assault phase (assuming Shadowsun is the Warlord).


Also, your list is good, but I can see much improvement just by adding some riptides.


This would probably be my ideal Farsight list at 1850:


Farsight
Shadowsun
"The 7 Dwarves"

Farseer - Jetbike

3x10 Kroots
3x Jetbikes

Riptide - EWO, VT, Fusion, IA
Riptide - EWO, VT, SMS, HBC


Now you have a highly mobile army with hardly any static parts. The farseer can dole out Prescience/Guide to the riptides to minimize Overheats as well.

I used Eldars before the new codex, now they are trash as an ally. Yes, the new Eldars are strongest than the old ones, but not for what i needed: runes of warding. They were incredible, they really provided a huge psychic defence. But the new Eldar? No, they don't provide defence at all! Plus, 3 bikes with a Farseer can be killed easily by a smart opponent. Remember that to cast Blessings and Maledictions you have to see the target... 3+ cover save is not enough to survive.

Oh, and Riptides are trash. First, they need MLs to be effective, but the rest of the list does not. Second, they may be viable in a regular Tau list (even though sometimes i feel Crisis can do the same job better), but in THIS list, they don't give me anything i need. I need saturation, and the Broadsides give me that. I need alpha strikes and AA, and this is why Skyrays are there. What do Riptides give me? A lot of people love them (partly because of the model, which is really cool), but i feel they are not the most competitive choice in the codex. A bit overrated in general, they become a bad choice with no ML support, and an horrible choice in a Farsun Bomb.

Alright, I think I see where you're getting at re: the riptides. I do wonder though, is it possible to make this list competitive without relying on the SM librarian? Quite frankly I think it's a fantastic pairing, but I don't want to be getting into arguments about GoI and whether or not the unit can JSJ every single game. Any thoughts here?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Remember a flyer heavy opponent will kill your Farseer first. He's only got 3 T4 wounds for company and will go away to any concerted fire. Then no guide/prescience for you and you fail that 3+ and you're back to 4 S6 hits and 1.5 S7 for about 450 points of your army shooting. So yes Riptides are poor AA situationally with a Farseer and the right equipment than can be decent AA. If you're basing your lists AA on Riptides you are in trouble if your opponent has brought competitive Necrons or Chaos Marines.

Whilst the prescience/guide can help the Riptide it is the ignores cover that makes the Ion really work.

Yes the HBC Riptide can and does support the Bomb much better than the superior Ion variant. But if and only if you can consistently Nova charge the cannon. Why take that risk when so much else in the Tau codex can support the bomb without relying on a 3+ each turn?

You do realize that the farseer will be in the bomb unit, right? Not so easy to kill him with potentially 2+ cover and Look-Out-Sirs. Besides, the sources for markerlights (i.e. pathfinders, markerdrones) can normally be killed much easier than the farseer unless you invest a considerable amount of points to take them en masse.

SMS can ignore cover. And if you really want, you can add some markerlights to my list. At 1850, there may actually be enough points to run a 3rd riptide after dropping 1 unit of kroots.

HBC riptides are better as AA support because 1) they're cheaper with skyfire+interceptor than missile-sides, 2) they can cover a wider range of the board because they're much more mobile than missile-sides and 3) they are more flexible overall, being able to handle anything from infantry to land raiders.

There's a reason why some of the best players in the US run triptides. And I am talking about a GT winner.

The game is about taking risks. If you want to play it safe all the time, you can forget about winning some games. With 10-15 wounds (depending on taking 2 or 3 riptides), you will survive failed Nova-charges. Also, 8 S6 shots is still respectable, especially with Prescience.

Teschio wrote:

jy2 wrote:BA is an interesting ally choice. Frankly, it wouldn't be my ally of choice. Space marines are better, though there is much controversy surrounding the GoI librarian. However the weakness of this build is that I believe you lose your assault move if a model without it joins the unit.

You don't lose the JSJ movement. Simply, the character who is not Jet Pack Infantry doesn't move, but the rest of the unit does, while keeping coherency. Think about it a little, and you will see how that can be exploited to get a 5-6" movement each turn.

I don't have my dex with me so I will take your word for it.

Teschio wrote:
I used Eldars before the new codex, now they are trash as an ally. Yes, the new Eldars are strongest than the old ones, but not for what i needed: runes of warding. They were incredible, they really provided a huge psychic defence. But the new Eldar? No, they don't provide defence at all! Plus, 3 bikes with a Farseer can be killed easily by a smart opponent. Remember that to cast Blessings and Maledictions you have to see the target... 3+ cover save is not enough to survive.

Before and after are 2 very different things. I suggest you try using them again before proclaiming them trash. And the old RoW was just complete bullsh*t. You are living in the past if that is your expectations of the new eldar.

What the farseer provides is a 4+/5+ Deny save to the unit for psychic defense. No, that is no where near the level of the old Runes, but it is an improvement over the 6+ Deny save.

And why the hell is everyone thinking that the farseer goes with the jetbikes? He joins the bomb, not the guardians. Guardians stay in reserves and when they come in, they hide. They go for the T5 objective grab and that is a tactic that has won so many eldar players so many games. Really now, I don't understand why people are bagging on armies they don't really understand.

Teschio wrote:
Oh, and Riptides are trash. First, they need MLs to be effective, but the rest of the list does not. Second, they may be viable in a regular Tau list (even though sometimes i feel Crisis can do the same job better), but in THIS list, they don't give me anything i need. I need saturation, and the Broadsides give me that. I need alpha strikes and AA, and this is why Skyrays are there. What do Riptides give me? A lot of people love them (partly because of the model, which is really cool), but i feel they are not the most competitive choice in the codex. A bit overrated in general, they become a bad choice with no ML support, and an horrible choice in a Farsun Bomb.

ML do make them better....but so does psychic powers. You want saturation? Then you've got it. They are cheaper than broadsides, thus giving you more points to get skyrays if you want. They also don't compete against the skyrays in terms of FOC slots. Don't get me wrong. Broadsides are good. However, taking broadsides (assuming units of 3) actually take away from your target saturation just by the simple fact that they are a more costly unit. Thus, you take them, you have less points for other units.

There's a reason why the winning GT Tau build here in the US included 3 riptides and 3 skyrays.

Teschio wrote:

jy2 wrote:I really don't understand your opinion of why riptides are "horrid" with the bomb. They make the army fully mobile and can actually get away from threats.

They are horrid because they don't do anything you need, and they cost a lot. Not a bad unit in general (actually, that is debatable, more and more experienced players i know think they are not worth their points), but a list is about synergy, not random units put together. In this list, everything they do can be done better by something else, therefore they are not the best choice (plus, as i already said, no ML support turns them from half-decent to crappy in any list).

Yes, I don't need more firepower. I don't need mobility that can match the farsight bomb and can get away from assault units. I don't need more AA capability. I don't need a rugged unit that can't be 1-shotted by a lascannon or drop-podding meltas. I don't a unit that is flexible enough to handle all threats and not just infantry. I don't need a unit that is "expensive" at 200-pts, and yet would be wiser to take a unit that is less flexible and cost more than 250pts?!? Is there anything else the riptides bring that I don't need?

And if you cannot see the synergy in this list, then I seriously wonder about your tactical acumen. Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but your advice sounds like theoryhammer without practical experience insofar as riptides are concerned.

Teschio wrote:

jy2 wrote: Nova-charged HBC's can hurt most vehicles, including land raiders. It actually has a better chance than a lascannon to damage AV14.

That's true. Too bad it costs 8 times a lascannon, and it works two turns out of three (and on the third one, you suffer a wound as well). That Riptide costs like 2 Skyrays... think about that.

There's actualy enough points leftover in my list to take 1, maybe even 2 skyrays if you feel the need. But the point is, the riptide has the flexibility to deal with land raiders if needed. Some of the other units, including the missile-sides and skyrays, can't. Against LR's, you only have the bomb to fall back on. With riptides, who BTW are a threat to AV14 just by the simple fact that they are MC's, now you've got multiple units that can handle certain builds like LR-spam.

Teschio wrote:

jy2 wrote:As for hurting MSU transports, hey....this is a deathstar list. Targeting multiple units will always be a weakness of such builds. So what's new?

Really? You know what Target Locks are for, right? That unit can easily murder 3-4 vehicles a turn, more if they are light vehicles like rhinos: vs AV11, the drones, Farsight and one of Shadowsun's blasters kill a vehicle, the blaster suit kills another one, with Tank Hunter MP suits kill one vehicle each, the other blaster from Shadowsun and maybe a plasma suit another, and 2 plasma suits a sixth. With "kill" i mean also incapacitate, if i need to i can focus less vehicles and be sure to destroy them, at least 4 rhinos a turn. This list eats MSUs for breakfast.
Stop saying this is a deathstar: it has none of the weaknesses deathstars usually have: it is mobile, it is extremely resistant, and it can split fire efficiently. When you think about this list, forget everything you ever experienced about deathstars, because this list is unique.

Think again if you think S6 plasmas or S7 missiles will easily "murder" transports, even with Target Locks. The strength of Tau is to focus-fire to whittle down any unit, transports included. If you have to diversify your firepower, you are doing the exact opposite of that. Yeah, you may kill multiple vehicles if you're lucky, but more realistically, you'll just be taking 1-2 HP's off of various vehicles. And Tau does deal with multiple units better than other deathstars, but make no mistake, it is still a deathstar. The only difference is that other deathstars take on multiple units in the Assault phase whereas the Farsight-bomb takes on multiple units in the shooting phase.

themadlbb wrote:Alright, I think I see where you're getting at re: the riptides. I do wonder though, is it possible to make this list competitive without relying on the SM librarian? Quite frankly I think it's a fantastic pairing, but I don't want to be getting into arguments about GoI and whether or not the unit can JSJ every single game. Any thoughts here?

No it's not The mobility it provides is invaluable.

jy2 wrote:You do realize that the farseer will be in the bomb unit, right? Not so easy to kill him with potentially 2+ cover and Look-Out-Sirs. Besides, the sources for markerlights (i.e. pathfinders, markerdrones) can normally be killed much easier than the farseer unless you invest a considerable amount of points to take them en masse.

Inside the Bomb the Farseer definitely makes more sense. But i don't like to rely on random powers (except for Guide, which you will always have). And honestly, without GoI you end up suffering a lot some armies (like hordes, that will eventually catch up with you because you run out of space to flee from them, or any army that splits its forces, you won't be mobile enough to take care of them with the Bomb). Plus, your effectiveness on the first turn is severely limited (no hit from drones or FBs and single hits from plasmas)

Oh, and don't worry about LoS, that's what Sworn Protector is for

HBC riptides are better as AA support because 1) they're cheaper with skyfire+interceptor than missile-sides, 2) they can cover a wider range of the board because they're much more mobile than missile-sides and 3) they are more flexible overall, being able to handle anything from infantry to land raiders.

They are more mobile, they are cheaper, but they also shoot a lot less, and they rely on a 3+ roll to be very effective (and a psychic power devoted to them as well). If it were a 2+ roll we can talk about it, but too much randomness ends up hurting a list, imo. The less risks i have to take, the better i feel. As for their effectiveness versus LRs, an average of one glancing hit and one penetrating hit (with no bonus on the penetrating hit table) every TWO Riptides, both with something that allows the to reroll to hit, is not exactly optimal...

The game is about taking risks. If you want to play it safe all the time, you can forget about winning some games. With 10-15 wounds (depending on taking 2 or 3 riptides), you will survive failed Nova-charges. Also, 8 S6 shots is still respectable, especially with Prescience.

The game is not about taking risks, it's about taking calculated risks. If i need a LR to pop in one turn, i can't rely on Riptides to do it. I will need 4 TL-FBs with Tank Hunter. Even versus flyers, they are too random: assuming you pass your nova-charge test (and it's a big assumption...), you still have to roll 6s to penetrate them (i am talking about heavy flyers, AV12, expecially the much feared Heldrakes). Too random, not reliable enough if i have to base my victory on it.

I don't have my dex with me so I will take your word for it.

Not in the codex, it's in the BRB, nothing prevents you from using that movement if an IC without Jet Pack type joins a Jet Pack unit. Only, you won't move him, but every other model can.

What the farseer provides is a 4+/5+ Deny save to the unit for psychic defense. No, that is no where near the level of the old Runes, but it is an improvement over the 6+ Deny save.

With the Libby, i Deny the Witch on a 5+

ML do make them better....but so does psychic powers. You want saturation? Then you've got it. They are cheaper than broadsides, thus giving you more points to get skyrays if you want. They also don't compete against the skyrays in terms of FOC slots. Don't get me wrong. Broadsides are good. However, taking broadsides (assuming units of 3) actually take away from your target saturation just by the simple fact that they are a more costly unit. Thus, you take them, you have less points for other units.

Yes, but they are also much more powerful (and reliable) than Riptides... on a per-point basis, considering you rely on a 3+ roll AND a psychic power for maximum effectiveness, they saturate more than Riptides.

Yes, I don't need more firepower. I don't need mobility that can match the farsight bomb and can get away from assault units. I don't need more AA capability. I don't need a rugged unit that can't be 1-shotted by a lascannon or drop-podding meltas. I don't a unit that is flexible enough to handle all threats and not just infantry. I don't need a unit that is "expensive" at 200-pts, and yet would be wiser to take a unit that is less flexible and cost more than 250pts?!? Is there anything else the riptides bring that I don't need?

You need mobility, and you prefer a Farseer to a Librarian? What beats 24" + 2D6" movement each turn? What the list needs is saturation (and Broadsides are MUCH better at that), protection for troops on the backfield objectives (this is why they have EWOs, among other uses), and AA (a single Skyray is better at that than Riptides). Riptides can be good in Tau lists, but not in this one.

And if you cannot see the synergy in this list, then I seriously wonder about your tactical acumen. Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but your advice sounds like theoryhammer without practical experience insofar as riptides are concerned.

Oh no, i used them. A lot. I still think they are a bit overpriced for what they do, that can be done better by other units in the codex, but this is in a "regular" Tau list. In this one, they don't give you what you need. you know, not every unit considerd strong is actually good in every single list... Heldrakes are probably the best flyers out there, but in a in-your-face list, 18 Nurgle Spawns with a couple of ICs with them are just better... this doesn't mean Heldrakes are bad, any person can tell you what makes them strong, but they are not strong in that list.

There's actualy enough points leftover in my list to take 1, maybe even 2 skyrays if you feel the need. But the point is, the riptide has the flexibility to deal with land raiders if needed. Some of the other units, including the missile-sides and skyrays, can't. Against LR's, you only have the bomb to fall back on. With riptides, who BTW are a threat to AV14 just by the simple fact that they are MC's, now you've got multiple units that can handle certain builds like LR-spam.

Yes, i "only" have the Bomb for LRs. Don't you think it's enough? And BTW, being MCs is not enough to be a threat to LRs... with their crappy Attacks and WS, they can kill the vehicle, but its delicious filling of Termies will rape the Riptide in return...

Think again if you think S6 plasmas or S7 missiles will easily "murder" transports, even with Target Locks. The strength of Tau is to focus-fire to whittle down any unit, transports included. If you have to diversify your firepower, you are doing the exact opposite of that. Yeah, you may kill multiple vehicles if you're lucky, but more realistically, you'll just be taking 1-2 HP's off of various vehicles. And Tau does deal with multiple units better than other deathstars, but make no mistake, it is still a deathstar. The only difference is that other deathstars take on multiple units in the Assault phase whereas the Farsight-bomb takes on multiple units in the shooting phase.

When i say i can kill multiple vehicles, it's because i have done it... and you don't need to be very lucky to do it. Against an AV11 vehicle, a single MP suits with Tank Hunter has a good chance of destroying it, or at least immobilize it. Same goes for Plasma suits, 2 of them are 8 shots, 6 hits, on a 5+ it's an HP, and i reroll that dice too... it's an average of 3.333 HPs JUST with two suits (and this is WITHOUT rolling on the Penetrating Hit table, in which they have a +1 as well). the FB suits murders another one with a certain reliability. I have played this list long enough that i know when to focus and when to split fire, depending on what i need.
Please, can you tell me which other Deathstar has the same mobility, firepower, resistance and flexibility? Because i'm curious now...

Look up screamer star/council. Re rollable 2 plus invul means something like a 1000 wounds to kill a usual squad while that is up. It has 36inch range per turn, firepower is dependant on who you are facing, you can go for anti infantry (up to 15d6 of re rolling to hit str6 ap4) or anti tank (infernal gateway or bolt of change, both are d6+5 for str and ap1/ap2).

Flexibility in bundles really. They can ignore cover to kill any 4+ troops, they can misfortune marines if going anti infantry. They can even bring the hurt to MC's and anti air if needed.

Combat, they have 3 attacks each so dont care about mutlicharging, they have access to str5 ap2 attacks. n a normal charge a full squad will have 52 re rolling to hit attacks. It can also take on armour 14, so does something hounds cannot, that is take on av11 or more.

So mobility is better, firepower ok its psyhic and can only shoot one unit but with the deciated anti tank (bolt being beam is horrible against parking lots). Resistane is unreal, yes it can fail but they have the mobility to get out of harms way quite well and can rely on cover saves as well as the invul if failed grimoire or forewarning. Flexibilty is unreal, it can do everything needed.

Cost wise, the way I run it 675pts (plus fateweaver tax of 300pts). This really laughs at lists like yours and this is also a ETC prey list for Tau shooty armies

Ummm...no its not. Believe me I just took out a squad of 30 boyz and measured, assuming your squad is about 12" away from mine to ensure that I didn't charge you the last turn, it would take 24" just to get on the other side of the squad and then another 2d6 move which on avg. would be an extra 7". So you would only be 7" away from them by the end of your movement and btw that was measuring from the guy in your squad who would be closest to them at the start of your movement, so realistically your squad wouldn't be able to jump over them at all because the majority of your squad would land on top of mine at the end of your movement.

Teschio wrote:

I'm not sure the farsight list is over powered compared to a lot of things, especially considering you run it with a 4+ cover save and no infiltrate. So you deploy in cover and just take the dangerous terrain tests?

Sure i do (or i move just outside a terrain and JSJ into it afterwards, if range is an issue, but if possible i tend to not rely on those 2D6 to be safe). I lose one or two drones, but my unit will have a 2+ cover save. 24" movement is enough to hop from terrain to terrain. I usually have to do it for the first 2 turns though, after that anything that can threaten me is gone.

How is it you manage to only ever lose drones to DT tests? With 10 non-drone models and a 1/18 chance to take a wound from DT (1/6 Fail * 1/3 Fail Armor Save), it seems like your suits should sometimes be failing those as well. Admittedly it's not a huge issue, but it could certainly leave you out to dry with some poor luck.

flaming tadpole wrote: Ummm...no its not. Believe me I just took out a squad of 30 boyz and measured, assuming your squad is about 12" away from mine to ensure that I didn't charge you the last turn, it would take 24" just to get on the other side of the squad and then another 2d6 move which on avg. would be an extra 7". So you would only be 7" away from them by the end of your movement and btw that was measuring from the guy in your squad who would be closest to them at the start of your movement, so realistically your squad wouldn't be able to jump over them at all because the majority of your squad would land on top of mine at the end of your movement.

The 12" starting distance is the problem... if you are at 12" from me, i don't even try to run, i shoot you. Removing the first models will ensure you won't be able to assault me, since you seem to keep your models at almost maximum coherency. I don't even need to shoot with every weapon there, the drones should be more than enough. You need to get closer if you want to have a chance to assault me, but if you do, i jump on the other side.

TehCheator wrote:How is it you manage to only ever lose drones to DT tests? With 10 non-drone models and a 1/18 chance to take a wound from DT (1/6 Fail * 1/3 Fail Armor Save), it seems like your suits should sometimes be failing those as well. Admittedly it's not a huge issue, but it could certainly leave you out to dry with some poor luck.

Yes, sometimes i take a wound on suits as well (i don't count ICs, because they have 3 or 4 wounds and there is no other way to allocate wounds to them, so i will gladly fail a test with an IC than with a suit). But the important suit is just one, and that suit dies every 36 Terrain tests on average. I can live with that

Teschio wrote:
Yes, sometimes i take a wound on suits as well (i don't count ICs, because they have 3 or 4 wounds and there is no other way to allocate wounds to them, so i will gladly fail a test with an IC than with a suit). But the important suit is just one, and that suit dies every 36 Terrain tests on average. I can live with that

Yeah, I figured that was the case, just wanted to be sure.

My only other concern with a list like this (that I actually like and kinda want to try, just for the fun factor) is character MCs. I probably think about this a lot because my friend plays a flying circus Daemons list, but if you're up against a character MC (or any character with the ability to be S10), one precision strike melee attack can ruin your whole plan by removing the HnR suit and keeping you locked in combat until the squad is gone.

I suppose you could challenge, but you really don't want to lose Farsight or Shadowsun either, and both have the potential to be readily doubled out by MCs going Smash.

TehCheator wrote:
My only other concern with a list like this (that I actually like and kinda want to try, just for the fun factor) is character MCs. I probably think about this a lot because my friend plays a flying circus Daemons list, but if you're up against a character MC (or any character with the ability to be S10), one precision strike melee attack can ruin your whole plan by removing the HnR suit and keeping you locked in combat until the squad is gone.

I suppose you could challenge, but you really don't want to lose Farsight or Shadowsun either, and both have the potential to be readily doubled out by MCs going Smash.

Against FMCs, i will try to kill one each turn with the Bomb, while moving far away from the others so i won't get assaulted (to assault, they need to be Gliding, that's a 12"+2D6" assault distance). Skyrays do wonders against them even when swooping, 12 BS4 (most likely BS5 or higher, actually, thanks to networked MLs), S8 AP3 missiles HURT. If those FMC don't have 3+ AS, missilesides can do some real damage as well (at least forcing a Grounding test). Since that list has very few models, i can easily sacrifice my troops to shoot (again forcing Grounding tests, or even as meat shield, directly in front of the unit so you can't assault it. I just have to survive a few turns after all, by turn 3 you shouldn't have any more FMCs (they cost a lot, at 1750 points you won't have so many), and if the bomb is still alive i have plenty of time to win by wipe-out. Unless i absolutely need GoI to avoid being assaulted, my Librarian will cast Null Zone as well (i never said it, but it's obviously his second power). Even if you get to assault me, unless it's with two or more FMCs in the same turn, i am not worried: Overwatch can do A LOT of damage, and worst case scenario i will challenge with Farsight (that has 4+ IS, and can reroll it in challenges thanks to Moral Support). Farsight is not that important versus that army anyway.
As a last note, i remind you that you can disengage with GoI as well, you don't need H&R...

Teschio just remember that if you get in combat with a FMC and lose they have a really good chance to sweep you off the board and then there goes your 1000 point deathstar even if you challenge.

-Fire-

The Engram chip can give you Stubborn which significantly reduces the chances of a failed test. But yes if you fail a test against for instance a Daemon Prince you are almost auto caught....

iGuy91 wrote:x2 Necron death and despair squads would annihilate that deathstar in a shooting phase for a fraction of the points with that lovely ap1 flamer wounding on 2's


Yes, if i am an idiot. That is, if i get out of my deployment zone against them. I will just wait until they enter from Reserve, they won't be in range with the flamers to hit my unit, and the next turn i will murder them. Problem solved. Most people that think that a certain unit counters this list heavily don't realize they have an opponent with a brain in front of them, which can often counter those units effectively. Same goes with MLs + Riptides, easy to counter if you use your head a little, but they annihilate you if you don't. As i said before, this list needs a little thinking: advancing against D&D squads is one of those mistakes that lose you the game.

Well, standard delivery for them is in a night scythe. So you stay back against my army, and I chip away at you at range until they come in, and drop in the right spots, or you're out of range to do anything of consequence.

I think this unit is overrated, and I mean no disrespect to you as a player, or your tactics, you clearly threw a monkey wrench in some tournament lists, and thats great, but I don't believe its as devastating as people lead you to believe.

Teschio wrote:
Against FMCs, i will try to kill one each turn with the Bomb, while moving far away from the others so i won't get assaulted (to assault, they need to be Gliding, that's a 12"+2D6" assault distance). Skyrays do wonders against them even when swooping, 12 BS4 (most likely BS5 or higher, actually, thanks to networked MLs), S8 AP3 missiles HURT. If those FMC don't have 3+ AS, missilesides can do some real damage as well (at least forcing a Grounding test). Since that list has very few models, i can easily sacrifice my troops to shoot (again forcing Grounding tests, or even as meat shield, directly in front of the unit so you can't assault it. I just have to survive a few turns after all, by turn 3 you shouldn't have any more FMCs (they cost a lot, at 1750 points you won't have so many), and if the bomb is still alive i have plenty of time to win by wipe-out. Unless i absolutely need GoI to avoid being assaulted, my Librarian will cast Null Zone as well (i never said it, but it's obviously his second power). Even if you get to assault me, unless it's with two or more FMCs in the same turn, i am not worried: Overwatch can do A LOT of damage, and worst case scenario i will challenge with Farsight (that has 4+ IS, and can reroll it in challenges thanks to Moral Support). Farsight is not that important versus that army anyway.
As a last note, i remind you that you can disengage with GoI as well, you don't need H&R...

Ah, yes, I forgot about being able to disengage with GoI too, that certainly helps. Against the list my buddy runs, it's still somewhat tricky though. 3+ AS with Reroll 1's and often FNP / IWND on top of that make it hard for high AP weapons to do anything. The plasma / fusion definitely will do a lot, but even with rerolls to hit it's no guarantee you'll get that many hits to stick. Fateweaver makes it a pain in the ass to get them to actually fail a grounding test.

Skyrays do seem amazing against them, force them to use their invul save and Skyfire is pretty good. I might have to try this out against him tonight, just to see how it goes.

FirePainter wrote:Teschio just remember that if you get in combat with a FMC and lose they have a really good chance to sweep you off the board and then there goes your 1000 point deathstar even if you challenge.

-Fire-

The Librarian gives me ADSKNF....

Teschio wrote:

jy2 wrote:You do realize that the farseer will be in the bomb unit, right? Not so easy to kill him with potentially 2+ cover and Look-Out-Sirs. Besides, the sources for markerlights (i.e. pathfinders, markerdrones) can normally be killed much easier than the farseer unless you invest a considerable amount of points to take them en masse.

Inside the Bomb the Farseer definitely makes more sense. But i don't like to rely on random powers (except for Guide, which you will always have). And honestly, without GoI you end up suffering a lot some armies (like hordes, that will eventually catch up with you because you run out of space to flee from them, or any army that splits its forces, you won't be mobile enough to take care of them with the Bomb). Plus, your effectiveness on the first turn is severely limited (no hit from drones or FBs and single hits from plasmas)

Powers aren't really random. Farseer is actually there to buff the other units like the riptides, since the bomb is already twin-linked and ignores cover from the commander. The farseer has got a number of potential powers that are really useful, depending on the situation and type of armies you face. Not counting the Primaris (Guide, Prescience), any number of these powers can be extremely useful - Doom, Fortune, Misfortune, Terrify, Puppet Master, Foreboding, Hallucination, Mental Fortitude, Death Mission (Haha , )

Now I'm not saying that a Space Marine GoI librarian isn't good. He is, and your list is definitely viable (as long as the TO's rule in favor of your intepretation for how GoI works). What I'm saying is eldar is definitely just as good an ally.

Teschio wrote:

HBC riptides are better as AA support because 1) they're cheaper with skyfire+interceptor than missile-sides, 2) they can cover a wider range of the board because they're much more mobile than missile-sides and 3) they are more flexible overall, being able to handle anything from infantry to land raiders.

They are more mobile, they are cheaper, but they also shoot a lot less, and they rely on a 3+ roll to be very effective (and a psychic power devoted to them as well). If it were a 2+ roll we can talk about it, but too much randomness ends up hurting a list, imo. The less risks i have to take, the better i feel. As for their effectiveness versus LRs, an average of one glancing hit and one penetrating hit (with no bonus on the penetrating hit table) every TWO Riptides, both with something that allows the to reroll to hit, is not exactly optimal....

I guess the 3+ is not a big deal to me, but then again, I'm a daemon player. I'm used to a lot more randomness than this.

Psychic powers are meant for them. Who else is the farseer going to cast Guide/Prescience on? His own unit, the bomb, doesn't need it. The trade off for the riptides vs the broadsides is flexibility. Yes, the broadsides will outshoot them vs infantry and light vehicles. However, the riptides are much more mobile (i.e. can get away from assault units), will outshoot broadsides against TEQ's and heavy vehicles (assuming Nova goes off), have better AA capability due to skyfire+interceptor (+Prescience) and are more durable overall.....and all at a cheaper cost. I guess we will never really see eye-to-eye on this. Some are just fans of riptides while others are of missile-sides.

Teschio wrote:

The game is about taking risks. If you want to play it safe all the time, you can forget about winning some games. With 10-15 wounds (depending on taking 2 or 3 riptides), you will survive failed Nova-charges. Also, 8 S6 shots is still respectable, especially with Prescience.

The game is not about taking risks, it's about taking calculated risks. If i need a LR to pop in one turn, i can't rely on Riptides to do it. I will need 4 TL-FBs with Tank Hunter. Even versus flyers, they are too random: assuming you pass your nova-charge test (and it's a big assumption...), you still have to roll 6s to penetrate them (i am talking about heavy flyers, AV12, expecially the much feared Heldrakes). Too random, not reliable enough if i have to base my victory on it.

I just don't see the calculated risk here. You also can't rely on missile-sides or skyrays to pop a raider as well. So what? At least with riptides, you have another option other than the bomb to pop AV14, whereas with some of the other units, you don't even have that option. That is what the riptide bring to the list - flexibility.

I've ran a triple-heldrake list against a triple-riptide list before. My opponent had no problems taking down my heldrakes with his riptides. Over the course of the game, he took down 2 and weapon-destroyed the last one....and this was with average rolling, a farseer ally in his list and average failed Nova-charges.

Teschio wrote:

ML do make them better....but so does psychic powers. You want saturation? Then you've got it. They are cheaper than broadsides, thus giving you more points to get skyrays if you want. They also don't compete against the skyrays in terms of FOC slots. Don't get me wrong. Broadsides are good. However, taking broadsides (assuming units of 3) actually take away from your target saturation just by the simple fact that they are a more costly unit. Thus, you take them, you have less points for other units.

Yes, but they are also much more powerful (and reliable) than Riptides... on a per-point basis, considering you rely on a 3+ roll AND a psychic power for maximum effectiveness, they saturate more than Riptides.

Yes, they shoot better than riptides. However, they are also much more susceptible to fast assault armies and insta-killing firepower. There's your trade-off there. BTW, I think we have different intepretations of target saturation. My intepretation is multiple threats, all of about relatively equal priority. The broadsides are the opposite of target saturation, as they are a high-priority target and due to their costs, will make for less targets in the army.

Teschio wrote:

Yes, I don't need more firepower. I don't need mobility that can match the farsight bomb and can get away from assault units. I don't need more AA capability. I don't need a rugged unit that can't be 1-shotted by a lascannon or drop-podding meltas. I don't a unit that is flexible enough to handle all threats and not just infantry. I don't need a unit that is "expensive" at 200-pts, and yet would be wiser to take a unit that is less flexible and cost more than 250pts?!? Is there anything else the riptides bring that I don't need?

You need mobility, and you prefer a Farseer to a Librarian? What beats 24" + 2D6" movement each turn? What the list needs is saturation (and Broadsides are MUCH better at that), protection for troops on the backfield objectives (this is why they have EWOs, among other uses), and AA (a single Skyray is better at that than Riptides). Riptides can be good in Tau lists, but not in this one.

My comment about mobility was with regards to the riptides, not the farsight bomb. The librarian definitely gives the bomb better mobility, I will give you that. As for your definition of saturation, I think we are talking about apples and oranges here.

As for riptides not being good in this one, I just simply disagree. IMO, riptides complement the farsight bomb very well.

Teschio wrote:

And if you cannot see the synergy in this list, then I seriously wonder about your tactical acumen. Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but your advice sounds like theoryhammer without practical experience insofar as riptides are concerned.

Oh no, i used them. A lot. I still think they are a bit overpriced for what they do, that can be done better by other units in the codex, but this is in a "regular" Tau list. In this one, they don't give you what you need. you know, not every unit considerd strong is actually good in every single list... Heldrakes are probably the best flyers out there, but in a in-your-face list, 18 Nurgle Spawns with a couple of ICs with them are just better... this doesn't mean Heldrakes are bad, any person can tell you what makes them strong, but they are not strong in that list.

It's probably harder for you to see them doing as well since you run SM allies. But try running eldar allies + riptides and you will see that they don't really need Markerlights to be effective. Yes, markerlights help (and not just the riptides but the entire army), but riptides IMO are good enough to complement almost any Tau army list due to their flexibility. The farsight bomb is no exception. As a matter of fact, I like them more with the farsight bomb because now you can build a totally mobile army with no static units.

Teschio wrote:

There's actualy enough points leftover in my list to take 1, maybe even 2 skyrays if you feel the need. But the point is, the riptide has the flexibility to deal with land raiders if needed. Some of the other units, including the missile-sides and skyrays, can't. Against LR's, you only have the bomb to fall back on. With riptides, who BTW are a threat to AV14 just by the simple fact that they are MC's, now you've got multiple units that can handle certain builds like LR-spam.

Yes, i "only" have the Bomb for LRs. Don't you think it's enough? And BTW, being MCs is not enough to be a threat to LRs... with their crappy Attacks and WS, they can kill the vehicle, but its delicious filling of Termies will rape the Riptide in return...

I actually have no problems with this. If you can kill the LR with the riptide, then next turn you will also kill the unit inside with the bomb. So LR + terminators + character = 600+ pts. I don't mind sacrificing a 200pt unit to take out a 600+ pt unit. It's a very cost-effective trade-off. And if it isn't a terminator unit, then 5-man MSU units aren't going to do much to a T6 2+ monstrous creature.

Teschio wrote:

Think again if you think S6 plasmas or S7 missiles will easily "murder" transports, even with Target Locks. The strength of Tau is to focus-fire to whittle down any unit, transports included. If you have to diversify your firepower, you are doing the exact opposite of that. Yeah, you may kill multiple vehicles if you're lucky, but more realistically, you'll just be taking 1-2 HP's off of various vehicles. And Tau does deal with multiple units better than other deathstars, but make no mistake, it is still a deathstar. The only difference is that other deathstars take on multiple units in the Assault phase whereas the Farsight-bomb takes on multiple units in the shooting phase.

When i say i can kill multiple vehicles, it's because i have done it... and you don't need to be very lucky to do it. Against an AV11 vehicle, a single MP suits with Tank Hunter has a good chance of destroying it, or at least immobilize it. Same goes for Plasma suits, 2 of them are 8 shots, 6 hits, on a 5+ it's an HP, and i reroll that dice too... it's an average of 3.333 HPs JUST with two suits (and this is WITHOUT rolling on the Penetrating Hit table, in which they have a +1 as well). the FB suits murders another one with a certain reliability. I have played this list long enough that i know when to focus and when to split fire, depending on what i need.
Please, can you tell me which other Deathstar has the same mobility, firepower, resistance and flexibility? Because i'm curious now...

I believe you. Tank Hunter + re-rolls to hit makes them very nasty.....against rhino-spam. Against other types of mech - necron AV13-spam, mechdar, IG mechguards, not so much.

BTW, you can find my Deathstar experiments here:


Battle of the Deathstars (Battle Report Links on p.1)