Alright lads! its time for another round, and well you know what that means time to get the models rolling. This round Is to paint up/create a fast looking well anything! This is suppose to fit in a fast attack slot, but we take models from every where so if it looks fast it qualifies. Bikes, winged beasts, planes, jets, hover tanks, turbo wheeled tank things that just sound cool, bombers, motorcycles and so on. Jet pack infantry as well. You get the idea, mobility, speed and sexy should be in there too. I am looking at you Nurgle. Good luck! the deadline is a month away.
Rules and Doo Dads Model must look like it goes fast. Whiles engines, wings, who cares as along as it goes fast! Model must be painted - even if you are not the best gold deamon status painter - this category is only a mild scale tipper
Painting as follows -will be judge be effort which includes, but is not limited too:
Spoiler:
highlighting washing OSL gem effects power weapon effects weathering and lastly free handing
Basing is also a requirement (IF IT HAS ONE) Main judging will be done based on the rule of cool
DEADLINE - August 21st
Current Contestants! *---------------------------* Hive Fleet LazarusMade Bobthehero 40kFSU Losteriksson inmygravenimage Camkierhi Casey's Law Thephony Smitty Lucarikx *bowed out* ashotninja Viktor von Domm SelvaggioSaky Boringstuff Matt.Kingsley Patmandude dsteingass Master Azalle Jackal
I'm not sure I have time to create something from scratch, after Briancj's comp I'll have less than 2 weeks. I might be able to finish my Flyrant though. What do you think? Is it suitable?
Camkierhi wrote:Would it be ok to use my warkopta, its part built at the mo, I actually put it on hold for this round, hoping it would be flyers.
Can understand if it's no.
Good comp though looking forward to it, will enter something guaranteed.
It is welcome! I will add your name.
Casey's Law wrote:I'm not sure I have time to create something from scratch, after Briancj's comp I'll have less than 2 weeks. I might be able to finish my Flyrant though. What do you think? Is it suitable?
Hmm, okay put my name down for now but I might pull out. I'd rather enter something that I build for the purpose of the competition but I'll see how this sits with me.
Ok, I'm In!
I have a big amount of painting to do 'cause I'll try to give some love to some of my oldest builds (yes that's plural )
I'll enter the Trio of Buggiz of "Da Krazy Pak", there's no way I take the paintbrush to do It otherwise...
Boringstuff wrote: Where are the giant speakers to play music as they fly into battle?
That would be awesome "ride of the Workiries"
I had someone play Ride of the Valkyries the first time I used my own Valk, during an apocalypse game, it was glorious, even tho the bird did nothing but drop 10 Grenadiers xd
At least this time I don't have to stuff around with *ahem* greenstuff.
Should be able to finish at least a min squad of seekers (5)... maybe a full sized (20) strong one if I have the time...
Okay, I've been thinking about my entry again and I have a question for you guys... Does size matter?
I'm thinking that I could probably kitbash/sculpt a large infantry/small monstrous creature in the time I have. Is that too small to be worth entering or would my piece be an ample enough size to get some 'Oooh's and 'Aaah's?
IMO No worries, the title is "SPEED". My interpretation is that as long as it looks fast go for it. Does not have to be legal unit or anything, just look fast.
eg. I was thinking of doing a Grot strapped to a rokkit in flight. I think it would qualify.
ComradePanda has last word though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and your work often gets me Oooh-ing and Aaaah-ing.
For those asking size doesn't matter Cam. had it right. Just gotta look fast. Your going to find to pull that effect off is going to be in posing or some effect from engines and things to really sell this idea. I wanted to challenge people in a category normally not traversed. To add the look of movement to a stationary object. Gw Vengence set is a good show of movement in a stationary object. Starting with those IMO is a good idea, but remember scratching and converting is a large portion of your grade here.
Best of luck! 40k I am sure you can pull something off, you have a base to work with too.
But as a reminder, has to look fast doesn't mean it has to look like it is going 1000billion parsecs per second, just give it some motion, some hint it is moving. If it is big with engines the brain does the rest. *goes play with ork supa shoota dakka jet.*
Blimey some of you guys are working fast .......all I've got is an idea. Think I need to get down the man cave and put some hours in so I have something to paint. .
Think this round is going to very ork heavy................bloody speed freaks everywhere
Ruglud wrote: Hey all, some good work going on in here - looking forward to seeing how you all get that impression of speed and movement into the finished models...
Is it weird that I've decided on that bit but I haven't chosen a miniature to use yet?
Ruglud wrote: Hey all, some good work going on in here - looking forward to seeing how you all get that impression of speed and movement into the finished models...
Is it weird that I've decided on that bit but I haven't chosen a miniature to use yet?
Ruglud wrote:Hey all, some good work going on in here - looking forward to seeing how you all get that impression of speed and movement into the finished models...
Is it weird that I've decided on that bit but I haven't chosen a miniature to use yet?
Get choosing mate, the clock is ticking
yeah that is not normal
Haha, I'll jump to it asap. All these competitions are keeping me busy!
I'll get an idea roughed out and look out the bits in the morning while my other project is drying.
Ruglud wrote: Losteriksson, that's great... Are you not going with bi-wing though, I for one think that would be fantastic on an orkified flyer...
That was the original plan but the top set of wings got in the way to much. 40k Orks are much bigger than 1/48 model humans it would seem and fitting in the Mekboy pilot meant raising the top wings far higher than they would have been on the original model which to my eyes didn't look right.
Do you know the old planes when they went single wing, they had a strainer (pole) on the body and cables holding up the wings. I think that would be an option, but to be honest, looks great as is.
Ruglud wrote: Losteriksson, that's great... Are you not going with bi-wing though, I for one think that would be fantastic on an orkified flyer...
That was the original plan but the top set of wings got in the way to much. 40k Orks are much bigger than 1/48 model humans it would seem and fitting in the Mekboy pilot meant raising the top wings far higher than they would have been on the original model which to my eyes didn't look right.
Ahh, right, I see the problem...
Camkierhi wrote:Do you know the old planes when they went single wing, they had a strainer (pole) on the body and cables holding up the wings. I think that would be an option, but to be honest, looks great as is.
Okay, so I'm going to be re-doing a Valkyrie I have. It's already painted, but I'm going to be revamping it and repainting it. Is that alright? I'm probably also going to be taking it apart for repairs and the like.
Smitty wrote: Okay, so I'm going to be re-doing a Valkyrie I have. It's already painted, but I'm going to be revamping it and repainting it. Is that alright? I'm probably also going to be taking it apart for repairs and the like.
Cam and Vik suggested that I enter my Catachan Air Cav into this contest.
Funnily enough, Cam and I started hacking up a Landspeeder at pretty much the same time without knowing.
Now, thankfully our threads are crossed, and I'm amazed at what he's built!
I started it on Monday, July 29, 2013- does it qualify?
The only thing is, I posed the figs more in a rest position than an attack or alert position. Think of the "get some" scene from Full Metal Jacket to set the scene Fast Forward to today:
And here is where I am at.
does this qualify? Thanks guys! Much appreciated!
Well, it looks like the heavy stubber is shooting pretty dang fast...
Knowing your hobby fu Dave, I'm sure you can find a way of representing speed with these guys (bandanda's flapping in the breeze, red hot engine glow, etc...)
I consider you well and truly in the competition now
Haha Thanks. The ammo belt is Zinge's flexible belt. I've just straightened it for painting here. That is why it looks like it's flying I'll build an ammo hopper for it and cut and shape it to size at the end.
Damn guys, everything is looking great! My enrty is coming along. That landing gear is driving me crazy. Seriously thinking about cutting it off. Anyway...
Is it too late to enter? I have some counts as Ravenwing bike squad to add to my Angels of Vengance (DA army list) company. Still unbuilt but the plan was to get them built and primed tonight.
dsteingass wrote: Haha Thanks. The ammo belt is Zinge's flexible belt. I've just straightened it for painting here. That is why it looks like it's flying I'll build an ammo hopper for it and cut and shape it to size at the end.
Welcome in lad!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Master Azalle wrote: Is it too late to enter? I have some counts as Ravenwing bike squad to add to my Angels of Vengance (DA army list) company. Still unbuilt but the plan was to get them built and primed tonight.
i am currently debating wether it will be an imperial or a grot fighter... (never really did anything green hided...so this would be a first one...)...
at all the others... damn... the competition is tough...
i am currently debating wether it will be an imperial or a grot fighter... (never really did anything green hided...so this would be a first one...)...
at all the others... damn... the competition is tough...
besides... it would open up a whole new brach of things i wanted to do for a millenia already... i wanted to do killa kans and grot tanks and...........................
i now need to find out how to "green" that flyer of mine then... well maybe you fellas can help me out when i update
That looks brilliant, Vik! I love the the shapes and the flow of the whole thing. I'm not sure if it would be possible bit have you considered cutting the cockpit out and making it gyroscopic? Looking at it I get the impression that it could fly upside down, on it's side and in spirals. It'd be awesome if the pilot looked like he would always be the right way up, it wouldn't have to work jut look the part.
well... you all need to go to my thread as I already did some decisions!
it IS a grot fighter... and it already has quite some orky features... and it is upside up...
but I think you´ll love it nevertheless^^
also... casey ... you have a very good point there... I am still thinking about if I am able to do just that... it would make the whole thing look so much better...!
That looks very interesting there Vic, I think the gyro scope idea would be brilliant if you can pull off.
My bike's are almost all painted up, just for to base them and add the finishing touches (waiting on the mail for them to get here) then should be finished , maybe next week ??? mail's slow here
Here is my entry, all finished. I decided not to cut off the landing gear. I used some Ravenwing stuff to give the impression of movement. Also used some grayish weathering powder to simulate the soot and grim that would accumulate if the aircraft had descended from orbit and was flying through smoke and all that.
40kFSU wrote: Here is my entry, all finished. I decided not to cut off the landing gear. I used some Ravenwing stuff to give the impression of movement. Also used some grayish weathering powder to simulate the soot and grim that would accumulate if the aircraft had descended from orbit and was flying through smoke and all that.
"cant wait to see it finished!" just kidding! That is stunning and amazing!
That's really nice, clever positioning of deals and scrolls for effect. Like the weathering for speed, I had a similar thought (which I may now have to shelve! )
inmygravenimage wrote: That's really nice, clever positioning of deals and scrolls for effect. Like the weathering for speed, I had a similar thought (which I may now have to shelve! )
Why are you in Spain now? I thought you lived in America?
Automatically Appended Next Post: at losterikson... it started as a wee deo roll on... the future was bright and it could have ended as a happy tau fighter too... but alas... clouds have risen over the horizon and now it became a grot fighter plane
well today i´ve worked on the underside of the plane... i took your comments to heart and searched for more exhausts...also... i made some rocket launchers of different sizes... they still look imperial... tho i am fine with that... i think i have to inch into the grot theme one mm a time^^
also...i took the ...drive me closer theme to a new level... but see for yourself...
underside...
and rocket launchers... two of three different sizes...
i realize those pics are rather crappy^^
Yes well my project has ground to a halt while I await some red spray paint . I Thought I had some in the man cave....turned out I didn't. "Never mind" I thought "I'll just pop down the local hobby store". Well the hobby shop had every colour spray but red ...so now I'm waiting on the postman.
I've undercoated it silver applied a load of table salt and now I need to spray it red I wanted to use army painter red spray as I have the army painter red paint (which is supposed to be an exact match to the spray paint) for touching up and mixing highlights. According to ebay my paint is in the post so hopefully it will be here for the weekend
and many thanks for that tut... i was about to try that too... !
would brown work as an undercoat too? if i aim for a more rusty look?
Rust is brown, orange and red. You would have to go back in each little spot and add in the orange and red to make ti right. A spephia was can even it out.
and many thanks for that tut... i was about to try that too... !
would brown work as an undercoat too? if i aim for a more rusty look?
Don't see why not that's what the guy in the tutorial has done. I think the thing is the underlying colour needs to stand out from the top colour. As I wanted a red dakka jet I figured silver would show up better than a rust colour.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Camkierhi @ the copter is looking good did you free hand the black and white cheques on the tail?
Losteriksson wrote:
Don't see why not that's what the guy in the tutorial has done. I think the thing is the underlying colour needs to stand out from the top colour. As I wanted a red dakka jet I figured silver would show up better than a rust colour.
I planned a red one too... hmmm... good thinking there... I also thought about yellow...but we all know the story to that one... maybe I then should do blue?...it is my first orky model... so I am a bit undecided...
Camkierhi wrote:@ Losteriksson Thank you, Yes all free hand, cant you tell by how wonky they are!! LOL
so...
*the strong points got mounted...
*more exhausts and even the shark gilled exhausts were build...
* a gunner grot got made for the bolter nest...
*stearing gear go included to the cockpit...
*the bomb got some serious detail work...
and...
it flies...meaning... i made a flight stand... it is a bit front heavy which needs to be dealt with by making a sturdy and heavy base... i have good confidence in this
so... without further addo...the pics:
the pose is supposed to be a downward turn...
grot bolt gunner
squabbling cockpit crew...
shark gilled exhausts on the sides...(both sides...needs sanding tomorrow...)
shock!...empty cockpit...!!!
groupshot of the crew outside...still whining...
propeller side details:
and da bomb...question...what makes a big bomb even more dangerous?...add teeth...
the big question is... where to put that beast??? i think i need to make a structure to hold that thing...
Go blue vik, cause very grot needs all the luck he can get , as for the big bomb I say mount him to the tail fin on top. They must fly over he target, do a loop and release him at the apex of the loop. Hopefully they don't meet him on the way down when they get back to he bottom of the loop. , maybe that's why they paint the jet blue, for the luck not o hit themselves with their own bomb.
ah...yes... of course... was having a discussion with my wife about the scheme... she was dead against orange together with green...but I see the potential...hmm... and blue.. well I wanted to do a non- red army for once ...
my IG have almost all red in their scheme...
Paint it light green , it would be unique in all of orkdom. Then camouflage the grots so no one will know who to shoot.
Well after painting the "Turdis", I layer some base colors on the tempest chicken, a lot more work needed here, but wanted to give an update of my progress.
In landed position
Flight position
Playing chicken hawk with a marine bike
Dead after the marines found out their bike was gone.
Still have to paint the heavy flamer, missile pods, cockpit, sensors......lots to go including the obligatory designation numbers on it of "EFU2GW"
So, having seen how much folk are raising the bar with the contest, I leave you what my deranged brain came up with as a base for the LS Tempest: Can't quite believe it balances. graven.
inmygravenimage wrote: So, having seen how much folk are raising the bar with the contest, I leave you what my deranged brain came up with as a base for the LS Tempest:
Can't quite believe it balances.
graven.
Eldar mechanic working on some spot welds? I guess he has to be fast before he's found out to be xenos and executed .
I can see I'm lagging well behind, really nice entries gents. Here's a wip, just to prove that I am working on it. It's mostly built, although it still needs some gs work. The rider is still unattached for ease of painting.
inmygravenimage wrote: So, having seen how much folk are raising the bar with the contest, I leave you what my deranged brain came up with as a base for the LS Tempest:
Can't quite believe it balances.
graven.
Holy hell mang. I think all you need to make that really balance is having that fire dragon shooting.
Man, I just got some Deffkoptas, and considered entering, but YOU PEOPLE ARE CRAZY! Really great standard on display here, look forward to the finished pieces.
inmygravenimage wrote: So, having seen how much folk are raising the bar with the contest, I leave you what my deranged brain came up with as a base for the LS Tempest:
gosh... even more...(good painters)? there goes my slim chance
speaking of...
so...i promised more pics... well i give you two updates for one...
at first i drybrushed the whole build with boltgun metal...:
but then i added black and white... see for yourself...hope you like them^^
i have to be extra careful with the painting process... if i am careless the paint comes off... sadly while being very precise with brush on primer... the primer isn´t that trusty as i had hoped for... the model thus needs extra sealing later on...
I'm really sorry, but I have to pull out...
Between work, heat and,from yesterday, a cat from friends that are in holyday now... time and will are not there.
Good Luck to everyone, I'll watch this closely
Viktor von Domm wrote: oh....that´s rather sad... but comes better climate and more time you sure will complete your bugges... right? *crosses fingers!*
indeed and sad. Use the metal blue it would be cool.
you think so? i am itching to use that color for quite some time already......ok... you won me over... will test that tomorrow!it can always take another dozen coats if this fails^^
Got my entry roughly together now.
Still might add a few little details here and there. (Cant find my bloody jetpack grot to add to it yet!)
But for now its done, minus the base and paint
Wow haven't had much chance to check on this thread properly for a few days what with my wedding anniversary, birthday and weekend away with the wife (and no children ) lots of good stuff on show I knew orks (and grots) would be popular this round.
Anyway my red spray turned up so I had a go at this weathering technique using table salt. Not wild about the results looks good in some places and a bit crap in others but I think with practice it could turn out as useful technique to have in the painting locker. anyway a few pictures
i think either way this one will be fought among the green hides for the win....
losterikson... the build looks stunning... and i agree the peeled off look is soso in places... but i bet you can work with that when the brushes comes out to play^^...
besides... is the second coat of primer possible to flake even further due to the scrubbing off of the salt?
@Losteriksson, I wonder if the problem is that you used too fine a grade of salt? Table salt is made up of very small crystals, sea or rock salt is coarser and may have helped more with the effect possibly? Having said, that some well placed sponging on the larger areas could sort this out easily
BTW, belated Happy Anniversary, Happy Birthday and hope the weekend away was a good one
I think the problem was I used to much water to apply the salt turning the granules into much larger patches. The water pooled on the silver primer rather than flowing resulting in lumps. I think it's a technique that needs some practice.
Ahh, right I see... I've not tried the salt weathering yet, tend to go with the sponge method but I read that using hairspray to fix the salt works well...
at first i started with the sponge on weathering with vermin brown...at first this went quite good... but i had no real clue... so i made the paint too watery and ruined it almost...
when everything was dry again i used a mix of mithril silver and boltgun metal and drybrushed and feathered it around like crazy... well it´s also one of these akward moments you just had to see for yourself i guess... but in the ned it didn´t look too shabby (well actually it did... that was the whole point, innit?^^)
and then i used the blue wash (diluted even... so much for a learing curve today^^) in the end i added some decals... some upside down skulls for the gunner to keep track of his kills... and some old roughrider decals that had a certain orky pirate vibe for me... and they are yellow... which kinda suits the scheme...
so... here are the pics... a bit many ... but i toook with and without flash for you to see whats what...tho i think i need to make daylight pics... these are not the pics that tell the whole story...
and afterwards you see the first pics of the crew in WIP...
The base for mine approaches completion: Sorry about the flash, but the silver really is very bright, which was part of the plan. The glow is obviously still ongoing. Course, now I want to paint bright coloured pretty stuff but, meantime, progress on the Tempest:
@Losteriksson- Salt weathering looks nice and perfect for Orks. I tried salt weathering once, I try not to think about that poor Rhino........
@Vik- in my opinion, you are in front. A dive bombing grot plan actually dropping a bomb! Can't wait to see that crew.
@Hive Fleet Lazarus- I'm not sure what would be worse. Your swarm flying towards me, or over me. At any rate, I've never seen that many gargoyles painted up. Looking forward to the finished product.
@inmygravenimage- you got a cool thing going there and I love the color scheme.
Alright, so I've been feeling rather uninspired and I have a lot of work that'll need to be done with 3D modeling at college. I might do something last minute, but until then count me as being out of the running. :(
but well... to be still on your personal best seller list ... an update...
but i did a bit of a thinking... i wasn´t in the mood to further weather down the bird... so what to do to make it orky?... right... add some grafitti...
here are some pics... and the big courtesy goes to theo...as his idea is now to be read on the bomb... (hopefully i didn´t step on your toes with the slight variation i used... i respect every bodies beliefs... no mocking was inteded...just general high spirits!)
killroy is here
"zooom" and a lightning bolt...
exclamation mark and dead smiley...
and da bomb...( i thought writing catch on a bomb would be a nice pun... i think i will write "fetch" on a rocket^^)
Loads of great entries as usual well done everyone. I think Warlord Panda has enough aircraft to launch his own Orky air force. Speaking of which in between painting my daughters bedroom, while she is holiday with her grand parents, I managed to finish Mekboy Tork Rench and his kustom Dakka Jet so here is my entry for the comp
Well my entry to the terrain comp will be something other than ork, but that does not really count I guess. Next round I will do something else just for you Comrade.
Theophony wrote: If its an inquisition speeder then red, because no one expects a red inquisition missile up their.... Otherwise black with tiny white tip.
Rainbow missiles are the most effective against heresy.
Theophony wrote: If its an inquisition speeder then red, because no one expects a red inquisition missile up their.... Otherwise black with tiny white tip.
Rainbow missiles are the most effective against heresy.
But they themselves invite further inquisition, which of course is no to be expected. Because no one expects the rainbow inquisition.
Not sure which is the money shot Still open to C&C, it's been invaluable. I did go with =I= red missiles to purge heresy, and it's Emperor's Children in origin.
Hey ho,
graven
Great stuff! Good luck everyone but it's about time I say I'm not going to be participating. Too many competitions going at once and I don't multitask well.
for the current comrade pandas and rugluds "fasta" competition (title tweaked for to fit my entry ) i present to you dear followers the finished piece!
da grot fighta!!!
and below a many of athmospheric shots and detailshots...
Spoiler:
cheers, vik
Automatically Appended Next Post: i am working on a collage...but my PC always gets bottoms up when trying to work with so much artful pics
I'm afraid I've failed once again. I haven't even started painting my entry, and my work schedule isn't going to give me a chance in the next few days. Good luck everyone.
*bows* thank you all... it really was probably the for now most fun having built I ever did!... definitely not the last grot work I will be doing!!!...
by the way... comrade...now that I've finished my entry... what will be the new competitions theme?
Viktor von Domm wrote: *bows* thank you all... it really was probably the for now most fun having built I ever did!... definitely not the last grot work I will be doing!!!...
by the way... comrade...now that I've finished my entry... what will be the new competitions theme?
Not really a prob for me either way. If it's extended I'll be slightly bummed as killed myself and dropped bits to finish my entry. But it's cool. I am easy either way. If extension helps more entries finish cool.
As I would love more time to finish I would go for the second, but my official vote is to keep the closing time as is. I know I've seen some great works done in the allotted time, and think those people should be rewarded with it. Anyone like me who didn't focus enough/got sidetracked, should still complete their projects, but also be ready to receive only what they place with on time.
I didn't drop out of this project, but go sidetracked with other builds that I am truly enjoying at the moment, so I know my entry is only part done, but in my eyes hats okay.
The dead line will stand. Post finished results. Judgement will be delayed until all judges return. I will still collect personal votes and compile the finished entries. Best of luck all!
Ugh. Not good to enter a competition when you go on holiday right in the middle of it. I started painting one model (out of 3) before the holiday and now...
Well I don't even get into the Hall of Shame as I haven't posted a picture.
Boringstuff wrote: Ugh. Not good to enter a competition when you go on holiday right in the middle of it. I started painting one model (out of 3) before the holiday and now...
Well I don't even get into the Hall of Shame as I haven't posted a picture.
Hehe, I never even started. I had to drop outta this one.
Yes and...no. Waiting for the other judge to return from holiday. So results will be posted some time next week. Until then I am going to compile our entrants this evening and the shame. Poor poor shame. Still love people who try, it is because they tried. But yoda has some advice for you! After all is said and done, and everyones is compiled. Save up your vote for favorite.
Apologies for ducking out and leaving Panda all alone during the final phase of the competition, but a short family holiday took priority - plenty of fun times on the roller-coasters of Alton Towers (Google: The Smiler - this is one awesome ride with 14 loops...) also visited Warwick Castle and became a Viking for the day with Horrible Histories
So enough of me... on with the judging - here, in no particular order, are all the finished entries compiled into the Walk of FAME (there's also a walk of shame as well )
Hive Fleet Lazarus Flock of Gargoyles
Spoiler:
WIP
Losteriksson Mekboy Tork Rench and his kustom Dakka Jet
Spoiler:
WIP
inmygravenimage Land Speeder Tempest
Spoiler:
WIP
Camkierhi "Uwee" Da Warkopta
Spoiler:
WIP
40kFSU Raven Guard Stormraven
Spoiler:
WIP
ashotninja EDF FI-16 FALCON
Spoiler:
WIP
Viktor von Domm Da Grot Fighter
Spoiler:
WIP
Denua Ork Nobz Bikerz Mob
Spoiler:
HALL OF SHAME (in no particular order...)
Spoiler:
dsteingass Catachan Air Cav WIP
grrrfranky damned rider WIP
Jackal Grot flyer WIP
Casey's Law Hive Tyrant WIP
Theophony Tempest Chicken WIP
SelvaggioSaky Trio of Buggiz of "Da Krazy Pak" WIP
Let me know if I've missed anyone or any shots or if I've mistakenly put someone in the Hall of Shame...