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Post by: daedalus
http://www.theverge.com/2013/7/30/4571926/president-obama-amazon-speech
President Obama will deliver a speech on rebuilding middle-class American jobs today from an Amazon warehouse in Tennessee, but a look at the facts about employment at the giant internet retailer may work against the White House's intended symbolism. Amazon may be creating jobs — just yesterday it announced 5,000 new warehouse positions — but they're not likely to be the coveted middle class jobs that Obama will call for in his speech today.
The positions range from about $11 to $13 an hour, and while Amazon compares them to retail jobs, they're really warehouse jobs. Employees at Amazon's fulfillment centers retrieve, package, and send out orders to Amazon's online customers.
"THE PRESIDENT WANTS TO HIGHLIGHT AMAZON AS AN EXAMPLE OF A COMPANY SPURRING JOB GROWTH."
"The Amazon facility in Chattanooga is a perfect example of the company that is investing in American workers and creating good, high-wage jobs," deputy White House press secretary Amy Brundage told Fortune. "What the president wants to do is to highlight Amazon and the Chattanooga facility as an example of a company that is spurring job growth and keeping our country competitive." Unfortunately, that message doesn't quite mesh with a company that, as Fortune notes, pays just a little above the federal poverty line for a family of four. That doesn't quite match up with the president's call for "a better bargain for the middle class."
Of course, pay isn't everything — but Amazon hasn't received high marks on workplace conditions, either. Several reports have documented the rough working life for Amazon's "fulfillment center" employees, which depict an unsustainable work pace, job insecurity, and in some cases dangerous overheating due to lack of air conditioning. (The heat issue was so bad in some warehouses that Amazon arranged to have ambulances at the ready for employees suffering from heat stress.) For some living in depressed towns, Amazon warehouse jobs may be the best bet. As one Amazon worker told The Financial Times, "I very much want [Amazon] to stay, but equally I would like some of the worst employment practices to end."
In his speech, Obama outlines the areas he believes the country needs to focus on "if we want to create good jobs that pay good wages in durable industries." Among these priorities, listed in order of mention, are: manufacturing and high-tech jobs, infrastructure jobs, and clean energy jobs. So which priority does a job at one of Amazon's warehouses fulfill?
It's worth noting that these jobs aren't actually Amazon. They're carefully distanced through a staffing company, Integrity Staffing. Looks like employees MAY be eligible for health insurance too!
...I have no words.
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Post by: Grundz
The announced jobs and the quoted jobs are not the same obs
Also 11-13$ an hour is "middle class" as most of the jobs gained during the recovery have been minimum wage.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
I would love a job with $11-13 an hour. And their benefits begin within the first week.
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Post by: daedalus
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I would love a job with $11-13 an hour. And their benefits begin within the first week.
Where do you see that?
As an employee of Integrity Staffing you may also be eligible for medical and dental benefits.
Source: http://jobs.integritystaffing.com/job/Chattanooga-IMMEDIATE-PLACEMENT!-Warehoue-Associate-Weekend-Jobs-Chattanooga-&-Cleveland%2C-TN-TN-37421/1442839/
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Post by: Grundz
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I would love a job with $11-13 an hour. And their benefits begin within the first week.
Amazon self-employs most of their same-day shipping facilities, its the other facilities that are outsourced. (which is what is quoted)
as same-day, they put a lot of emphasis on hard work, showing up on time, you know, stuff you would be expected to do at a real job (most warehouse jobs are pretty willy nilly) Its a pretty kick ass job for menial labor where just straight up hard work can give great rewards though, go for it if you have the opportunity.
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Post by: daedalus
 Grundz wrote:The announced jobs and the quoted jobs are not the same obs
Also 11-13$ an hour is "middle class" as most of the jobs gained during the recovery have been minimum wage.
Middle class is defined as greater than mimimum wage then? I MUST be the 1% if $22,880 salary is middle class.
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Post by: Grundz
 daedalus wrote: Grundz wrote:The announced jobs and the quoted jobs are not the same obs
Also 11-13$ an hour is "middle class" as most of the jobs gained during the recovery have been minimum wage.
Middle class is defined as greater than mimimum wage then? I MUST be the 1% if $22,880 salary is middle class.
I know you just want to get into a long drawn out income gap argument to pad your post count, but i'll entertain. If you define middle class as near the median (not average) income, it is below a living wage. If you define it by population, same deal, if you define it by average (and let the top few percent or so skew it) then yeah, you're way below and should be sad.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
$13/hr is what, 30k/year about? That's middle class by just about anyone's definition.
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Post by: TheDraconicLord
Wait, 11-13$ an hour is bad?! I know €s still have a higher rate than $, but if we do 12$ x 8 daily hours x 22 working days a month (IF, they have 2 days-off each week) = 2112$ which is more or less 1590,84€.
This value kicks the crap outta a lot of ours... our minimum wage is around 500€, ffs.
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Post by: Alfndrate
 Rented Tritium wrote:$13/ hr is what, 30k/year about? That's middle class by just about anyone's definition.
Depends on debt to income ratio. I make just slightly more than 13 an hour, and I can't live on my own, and would basically be homeless.
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Post by: djones520
 Alfndrate wrote: Rented Tritium wrote:$13/ hr is what, 30k/year about? That's middle class by just about anyone's definition.
Depends on debt to income ratio. I make just slightly more than 13 an hour, and I can't live on my own, and would basically be homeless.
Well, debt is your own issue though. There is no reason a person shouldn't be able to survive on 30k a year, especially single.
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Post by: grayshadow87
Alfndrate wrote: Rented Tritium wrote:$13/ hr is what, 30k/year about? That's middle class by just about anyone's definition.
Depends on debt to income ratio. I make just slightly more than 13 an hour, and I can't live on my own, and would basically be homeless.
Wow. Where I'm living, that would likely be enough to live on alone, assuming that you were careful with your spending and lived within your means. I know the difference is likely just due to differences in cost of living, but it still strikes me whenever I hear things like what you said. I guess I've gotten too used to living in small towns.
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Post by: daedalus
Grundz wrote:
I know you just want to get into a long drawn out income gap argument to pad your post count, but i'll entertain.
That's awful judgmental. I mean, generally when I'm just padding my post count, it's with more inane stuff than this.
If you define middle class as near the median (not average) income, it is below a living wage. If you define it by population, same deal, if you define it by average (and let the top few percent or so skew it) then yeah, you're way below and should be sad.
What if I don't define Middle Class by either of those, and I go with any of the myriad of traditional definitions, rather than a moving goalpost one that I can't find any traditional record of:
Most definitions of the middle class I've been able to find, supported by the the various ones on Wikipedia, seem to indicate that the middle class is between the working class and the upper class, is usually comprised of professional jobs, has access to healthcare, and generally possesses discresonary income.
The things you call middle class seem to fall closer to what I see defined as the "working class", which an interesting redefinition in and of itself.
As a thought exercise, if that's your definition of middle class, what could you characterize as being below middle class? What are the defining elements of that body of people?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rented Tritium wrote:$13/ hr is what, 30k/year about? That's middle class by just about anyone's definition.
27,040, before tax (if you even pay tax at that point).
For a family of four, poverty line is 23,500.
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Post by: djones520
I got $27,040 based on a 40 hour work week Daed.
Edit: I see you caught that.
I was living on my own making 17,304 a year (before tax). With that I was paying a new car loan, insurance on it, rent on a apartment, utilities to include cable, and food. This was without the AF stipends for housing and food allowance, because I was supposed to be living on base in dorms and eating at the chow hall.
So if I was able to make it work at 17k, I don't see how people can't do it at 27k.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
I made 27 for 5 years and I couldn't do anything really extravagant, but I could afford a pretty nice apartment in a good part of town, eat out whenever I felt like, had expensive hobbies and a bit of savings. It felt pretty middle class to me.
I couldn't have raised any kids, though.
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Post by: djones520
Rented Tritium wrote:I made 27 for 5 years and I couldn't do anything really extravagant, but I could afford a pretty nice apartment in a good part of town, eat out whenever I felt like, had expensive hobbies and a bit of savings. It felt pretty middle class to me.
I couldn't have raised any kids, though.
Sure you could have, you just needed to cut corners. Like the expensive hobby, and eating out.
The problem with a lot of society is the unwillingness to do things like that.
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Post by: Alfndrate
djones520 wrote: Alfndrate wrote: Rented Tritium wrote:$13/ hr is what, 30k/year about? That's middle class by just about anyone's definition.
Depends on debt to income ratio. I make just slightly more than 13 an hour, and I can't live on my own, and would basically be homeless.
Well, debt is your own issue though. There is no reason a person shouldn't be able to survive on 30k a year, especially single.
Oh of course, but it's something that most people need to look at. If I make 35k a year and I have to live in crap project housing because the level of debt I have forces me to live in such conditions, I wouldn't consider myself middle class, even though my income might say otherwise. I've said it here on dakka before, I have an 85% debt to income ratio due to the insane amount of loans I have (student and car), and as such I have to change my means of living until it's a smaller beast. I live at home with parents, I pay rent in chores, manual labor (fixing things around the house), and cooking. I have reduced my hobby money to almost nothing, and earn my MAN DOLLIES through earning store credit by volunteering my time, and by volunteering for game companies. I would "barely" consider myself middle class, but with that level of debt, I can't survive on my own (or with a roommate) grayshadow87 wrote: Alfndrate wrote: Rented Tritium wrote:$13/ hr is what, 30k/year about? That's middle class by just about anyone's definition.
Depends on debt to income ratio. I make just slightly more than 13 an hour, and I can't live on my own, and would basically be homeless.
Wow. Where I'm living, that would likely be enough to live on alone, assuming that you were careful with your spending and lived within your means. I know the difference is likely just due to differences in cost of living, but it still strikes me whenever I hear things like what you said. I guess I've gotten too used to living in small towns.
It is enough, but debt to income feths me hardcore.
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Post by: azazel the cat
djones520 wrote: Alfndrate wrote: Rented Tritium wrote:$13/ hr is what, 30k/year about? That's middle class by just about anyone's definition.
Depends on debt to income ratio. I make just slightly more than 13 an hour, and I can't live on my own, and would basically be homeless.
Well, debt is your own issue though. There is no reason a person shouldn't be able to survive on 30k a year, especially single.
And therein lies the crux of the article's argument: apparently, 30k a year isn't enough to raise a family of 4, to absolutely nobody's surprise.
I would definitely call 30k middle class (albeit the low-end of that range)
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Post by: Grundz
Alfndrate wrote: Rented Tritium wrote:$13/ hr is what, 30k/year about? That's middle class by just about anyone's definition.
Depends on debt to income ratio. I make just slightly more than 13 an hour, and I can't live on my own, and would basically be homeless.
Depends more on where you live, "well, move" isn't really an option for some and if you're stuck in/near an expensive/major population center, you're in trouble
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Post by: PhantomViper
 azazel the cat wrote:
And therein lies the crux of the article's argument: apparently, 30k a year isn't enough to raise a family of 4, to absolutely nobody's surprise.
I would definitely call 30k middle class (albeit the low-end of that range)
But since when does "middle class" implies that a family of 4 only has a single income source?
Surely if you are translating those wages to a family of 4, then you have to take into account both parents incomes, making it 54k $ a year.
A family of 4 making 54k a year in the USA isn't middle class? You guys must be all be loaded or you pay through the roof for everything. 
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Post by: Grundz
PhantomViper wrote: azazel the cat wrote:
And therein lies the crux of the article's argument: apparently, 30k a year isn't enough to raise a family of 4, to absolutely nobody's surprise.
I would definitely call 30k middle class (albeit the low-end of that range)
But since when does "middle class" implies that a family of 4 only has a single income source?
Surely if you are translating those wages to a family of 4, then you have to take into account both parents incomes, making it 54k $ a year.
A family of 4 making 54k a year in the USA isn't middle class? You guys must be all be loaded or you pay through the roof for everything.
Median wealth (not per year, total value) for a person in the US is around $ 40k.
https://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/07/01-1
I believe the official "middle class" starts at around $25k/year
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Post by: daedalus
PhantomViper wrote: azazel the cat wrote:
And therein lies the crux of the article's argument: apparently, 30k a year isn't enough to raise a family of 4, to absolutely nobody's surprise.
I would definitely call 30k middle class (albeit the low-end of that range)
But since when does "middle class" implies that a family of 4 only has a single income source?
Surely if you are translating those wages to a family of 4, then you have to take into account both parents incomes, making it 54k $ a year.
A family of 4 making 54k a year in the USA isn't middle class? You guys must be all be loaded or you pay through the roof for everything.
That's how it was when I was young. There were very few dual income families, and it seemed like it was just really catching on. Most kids' moms I knew took care of the house, while their fathers were out working a job. The ones that I knew that had dual income families were either in such dire straits that they had to, or they were buying $10k TVs and expensive cars for their kids. Automatically Appended Next Post: Grundz wrote:I believe the official "middle class" starts at around $25k/year
That's the thing, I can't seem to find any official definition of middle class anywhere. I've seen economic models for classification described by numerous people, but I'm concerned that everyone (myself included) is going off of their own yardstick for determining where middle class lies. Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, new question:
So, for everyone who would call this job a middle class job, what would you call a job that paid $70k?
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Post by: Grundz
daedalus wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grundz wrote:I believe the official "middle class" starts at around $25k/year
That's the thing, I can't seem to find any official definition of middle class anywhere. I've seen economic models for classification described by numerous people, but I'm concerned that everyone (myself included) is going off of their own yardstick for determining where middle class lies.
I think thats because traditional measurement of the middle class has stopped applying, pretty much all "middle class" families are just families that are still just scraping by but live in areas with a higher cost of living, the days of only one parent working are gone which I think is why so many kids these days are little bastards. Even the ones that have done OK in the past like myself and DJ on a whole lot less, knew that while we were doing it we were one good car crash, sickness, trip down a flight of stairs, ect. basically one bad luck event from being in crippling debt+poverty forever.
Sure, plenty make bad decisions and end up there themselves, but the economy of this country is designed to keep you on the low end spending everything so you are willing to work more for less per unit of work to try and get ahead. Automatically Appended Next Post: daedalus wrote:
So, for everyone who would call this job a middle class job, what would you call a job that paid $70k?
I make a bit more than that, and when I made the leap, I just dont know what to do with all of it to be honest, I get by on a little more than I used to spend, with a little more luxury, if I want something I go get it, thats pretty much it, I save and invest a lot and try to spend some time helping others.
It just boggles my mind that someone making ten or a hundred times that still wants more, or even could possibly spend that much money.
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Post by: daedalus
Grundz wrote: daedalus wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grundz wrote:I believe the official "middle class" starts at around $25k/year
That's the thing, I can't seem to find any official definition of middle class anywhere. I've seen economic models for classification described by numerous people, but I'm concerned that everyone (myself included) is going off of their own yardstick for determining where middle class lies.
I think thats because traditional measurement of the middle class has stopped applying, pretty much all "middle class" families are just families that are still just scraping by but live in areas with a higher cost of living, the days of only one parent working are gone which I think is why so many kids these days are little bastards. Even the ones that have done OK in the past like myself and DJ on a whole lot less, knew that while we were doing it we were one good car crash, sickness, trip down a flight of stairs, ect. basically one bad luck event from being in crippling debt+poverty forever.
Sure, plenty make bad decisions and end up there themselves, but the economy of this country is designed to keep you on the low end spending everything so you are willing to work more for less per unit of work to try and get ahead.
I could agree with all of that, and I've been there before. I worked a crappy $10/hour job, and I was literally in the worst part of one of the lowest income towns in the St Louis area. I was living right next to the Section 8 housing. I went to work, I came home, and I didn't do much else other than try to figure out how to get myself out of that situation. I didn't have kids or anything though, so it was just me.
I just still can't reconcile calling that middle class.
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Post by: Grundz
daedalus wrote: Grundz wrote: daedalus wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grundz wrote:I believe the official "middle class" starts at around $25k/year
That's the thing, I can't seem to find any official definition of middle class anywhere. I've seen economic models for classification described by numerous people, but I'm concerned that everyone (myself included) is going off of their own yardstick for determining where middle class lies.
I think thats because traditional measurement of the middle class has stopped applying, pretty much all "middle class" families are just families that are still just scraping by but live in areas with a higher cost of living, the days of only one parent working are gone which I think is why so many kids these days are little bastards. Even the ones that have done OK in the past like myself and DJ on a whole lot less, knew that while we were doing it we were one good car crash, sickness, trip down a flight of stairs, ect. basically one bad luck event from being in crippling debt+poverty forever.
Sure, plenty make bad decisions and end up there themselves, but the economy of this country is designed to keep you on the low end spending everything so you are willing to work more for less per unit of work to try and get ahead.
I could agree with all of that, and I've been there before. I worked a crappy $10/hour job, and I was literally in the worst part of one of the lowest income towns in the St Louis area. I was living right next to the Section 8 housing. I went to work, I came home, and I didn't do much else other than try to figure out how to get myself out of that situation. I didn't have kids or anything though, so it was just me.
I just still can't reconcile calling that middle class.
This is 11-13$ jobs though, think of what you could have done with the extra 20-50 bucks per week after taxes! You could go out to eat at dennys once a month! ;P
No but really, its the article that is wrong, they are listing wages at amazons warehouses not their same day locations, which are what the new jobs are opening at.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
$11-13 an hour can only be seen as middle class in some parts of the country. In the urban northeast, thats nothing but low-income. We've had this discussion before people, "middle class" varies widely region to region, my 40k/year salary might seem like im middle class or upper class wage earner to some people in podunk, but in the NY metropolitan area thats almost living hand to mouth. It depends on the cost of living in any given area.
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Post by: whembly
chaos0xomega wrote:$11-13 an hour can only be seen as middle class in some parts of the country. In the urban northeast, thats nothing but low-income. We've had this discussion before people, "middle class" varies widely region to region, my 40k/year salary might seem like im middle class or upper class wage earner to some people in podunk, but in the NY metropolitan area thats almost living hand to mouth. It depends on the cost of living in any given area.
Yeah... word. I do think there's a place to have an honest discussion if the current minimum wage jobs need to be adjusted. We just had a protest last weekend that the Fast Food workers + the SIEU union* we're wanting a $15 min wage. I'd argue that's too high for the St. Louis area... maybe $10-12 / hr wouldn't hurt the economy that much. *Note, the unions like this because usually their collective bargained wages are tied to the state's min wage... they'd get an automatic raise.
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Post by: djones520
Which is exactly why SIEU is involved, even though they aren't officially tied to any of it.
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Post by: whembly
 djones520 wrote:Which is exactly why SIEU is involved, even though they aren't officially tied to any of it.
Yup... question everything.
If on surface, it appears they're helping for "altruistic" reasons... look deeper.
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Post by: Aerethan
Grundz wrote:The announced jobs and the quoted jobs are not the same obs
Also 11-13$ an hour is "middle class" as most of the jobs gained during the recovery have been minimum wage.
$13/ hr is good for TN, but nationally that is not "middle class" money. $26k per year is not sustainable income for a family. If you are single and rent a room out your whole life, then sure.
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Post by: Auxellion
Grundz wrote:The announced jobs and the quoted jobs are not the same obs
Also 11-13$ an hour is "middle class" as most of the jobs gained during the recovery have been minimum wage.
Confused as to why they would label that as is. Living solo/with a roommate at 35- 40k a year area in NJ is "Stable and Survivable Money" with the ability to save 30-40% of my income IMHO. If I had a family/obligations? I wouldn't feel safe at this level even if I didnt save.
Middle class my azz
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Post by: Grundz
 Auxellion wrote: Grundz wrote:The announced jobs and the quoted jobs are not the same obs
Also 11-13$ an hour is "middle class" as most of the jobs gained during the recovery have been minimum wage.
Confused as to why they would label that as is.
Because the peasants haven't risen up yet I would assume!
You have congressmen saying that welfare is too much because he was able to (horrifically unhealthily) feed himself on it, nixing all other costs and mcdonalds saying you can live on their salary if you work 72 hours a week, the fact you don't have to murder anyone to feed yourself makes you middle or upper class.
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Post by: LordofHats
As others have said, $11 an hour is pretty good. The issue though isn't the pay rate so much as the hours. Who wants to bet most of those warehouse workers are part timers?
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Post by: djones520
 LordofHats wrote:As others have said, $11 an hour is pretty good. The issue though isn't the pay rate so much as the hours. Who wants to bet most of those warehouse workers are part timers?
Doubtful, if their complaints of unsustainable workload is true. My grandmother is working a job with a similar "workload" and she's putting in nearly 60 hours a week right now.
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Post by: Grundz
LordofHats wrote:As others have said, $11 an hour is pretty good. The issue though isn't the pay rate so much as the hours. Who wants to bet most of those warehouse workers are part timers?
Yeah not even close, you do cycle through a lot of people because many cant cut it but the ones that stick around get PLENTY of hours.
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Post by: whembly
Grundz wrote: LordofHats wrote:As others have said, $11 an hour is pretty good. The issue though isn't the pay rate so much as the hours. Who wants to bet most of those warehouse workers are part timers?
Yeah not even close, you do cycle through a lot of people because many cant cut it but the ones that stick around get PLENTY of hours.
That's been my anecdotal evidence as well...
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
If you have a family of 4 (wife, two children)--11/hr would put you in the poverty level.
Of course, it's asinine that they list "Above 23,500/annual" as above poverty level. As someone that has a family of 4--I have no idea how you could possibly survive on 23,500/yr--unless you were heavily reliant on social programs.
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Post by: Jihadin
Back to work my Low Worker Caste minions...BACK TO WORK I SAY!!!
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Post by: dogma
Alfndrate wrote:Oh of course, but it's something that most people need to look at. If I make 35k a year and I have to live in crap project housing because the level of debt I have forces me to live in such conditions, I wouldn't consider myself middle class, even though my income might say otherwise. I've said it here on dakka before, I have an 85% debt to income ratio due to the insane amount of loans I have (student and car), and as such I have to change my means of living until it's a smaller beast. I live at home with parents, I pay rent in chores, manual labor (fixing things around the house), and cooking. I have reduced my hobby money to almost nothing, and earn my MAN DOLLIES through earning store credit by volunteering my time, and by volunteering for game companies. I would "barely" consider myself middle class, but with that level of debt, I can't survive on my own (or with a roommate)
I was in a similar situation 5 years back. My first job out of college paid an average of 15 USD per hour, which was pretty damn good considering that I graduated in the middle of the GFC. However, because my annual minimum student loan payments were ~16000 USD I was left with a little less than 9000 USD to live on. I probably could have managed that with a couple roommates, but basically decided that it was more prudent to accelerate payment on the principle balance of my privately held loans while living with my parents.
At that point I only considered myself middle class because I had parents who could afford to cover my immediate cost of living, and the possession of a very expensive college degree.
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Post by: Cheesecat
LordofHats wrote:As others have said, $11 an hour is pretty good. The issue though isn't the pay rate so much as the hours. Who wants to bet most of those warehouse workers are part timers?
$11 an hour is slightly better than working at McDonald's ($10.25 is minimum wage in BC) how is that middle class lifestyle? 
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Post by: djones520
 Cheesecat wrote: LordofHats wrote:As others have said, $11 an hour is pretty good. The issue though isn't the pay rate so much as the hours. Who wants to bet most of those warehouse workers are part timers?
$11 an hour is slightly better than working at McDonald's ($10.25 is minimum wage in BC) how is that middle class lifestyle?
Because cost of living in BC is outrageous. My father just moved back from there. Lived there for 5 years. Took a 50% cut in pay, and is still living better now then when he was there.
You guys tax the living hell out of everything, and then basic cost of items is significantly higher then what it is in the US.
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Post by: azazel the cat
djones520 wrote: LordofHats wrote:As others have said, $11 an hour is pretty good. The issue though isn't the pay rate so much as the hours. Who wants to bet most of those warehouse workers are part timers?
Doubtful, if their complaints of unsustainable workload is true. My grandmother is working a job with a similar "workload" and she's putting in nearly 60 hours a week right now.
djones520 wrote: Cheesecat wrote: LordofHats wrote:As others have said, $11 an hour is pretty good. The issue though isn't the pay rate so much as the hours. Who wants to bet most of those warehouse workers are part timers?
$11 an hour is slightly better than working at McDonald's ($10.25 is minimum wage in BC) how is that middle class lifestyle?
Because cost of living in BC is outrageous. My father just moved back from there. Lived there for 5 years. Took a 50% cut in pay, and is still living better now then when he was there.
Vancouver is outrageous. The rest of BC is very cheap, if you're near a city.
That sucks that your grandmother has to work 60 hours a week, man.
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Post by: djones520
Thanks. My grandfather passed away last year, and without his retirement money, making mortgage payments are rough. Thankfully she's got a job that's providing her the hours, but it is wearing her down.
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Post by: Cheesecat
Yeah, lots of people say BC is expensive and I wonder what drives up the cost their so much.
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Post by: SheSpits
I have a family of four (me, Wife and two kids) only I work. Make a little more than 13 an hour. Its tuff as hell and any little snag that pops up derails everything. I’ve cut back on everything since my wife lost her job. But to be honest I’m very happy. I have a nice place in a nice part of town (by the university) and we do ok. I have to cut back on allot, in fact I haven’t ate out in a very long time!!!! What really sucks is I do not qualify for any government assistance at all. Foods stamps denied me, which would have truly helped. I made like 50 over the limit. My kids do have insurance I never use it. If gas would go down in price that would help lol 4 bucks a gallon for 89.
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Post by: Grundz
djones520 wrote:
Thanks. My grandfather passed away last year, and without his retirement money, making mortgage payments are rough. Thankfully she's got a job that's providing her the hours, but it is wearing her down.
Hey at least with all that hard work ad menial pay she's rewarded by knowing her bosses boss can afford another house
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Post by: djones520
Grundz wrote: djones520 wrote:
Thanks. My grandfather passed away last year, and without his retirement money, making mortgage payments are rough. Thankfully she's got a job that's providing her the hours, but it is wearing her down.
Hey at least with all that hard work ad menial pay she's rewarded by knowing her bosses boss can afford another house
Trolly trolly trolly troll. *rolls eyes*
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Post by: skyfi
Grundz wrote: djones520 wrote:
Thanks. My grandfather passed away last year, and without his retirement money, making mortgage payments are rough. Thankfully she's got a job that's providing her the hours, but it is wearing her down.
Hey at least with all that hard work ad menial pay she's rewarded by knowing her bosses boss can afford another house
did that really need to be said? you came off very rude.
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Post by: LordofHats
I don't think its the ideal pay, for a single person in a low cost of living area, you can survive on $11. I know because I do. It's not the cushiest life style, but I get by. Naturally, if you live in a city (or heaven forbid DC) you're screwed. You need to be able to find liveable apartment locations for less than $600 a month, preferably less than $500. Exactly how many places like that there are in the US I guess I don't really know so maybe spoke to soon.
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Post by: Ouze
There is an interesting article here about what it's like to work in one of the warehouses (not as an actual Amazon employee, though). Long read.
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Post by: Frazzled
 AgeOfEgos wrote:If you have a family of 4 (wife, two children) would put you in the poverty level.
Corrected your typo
Poverty, at any income stream. Little rugrat vacuums!
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Post by: Aerethan
Sadly social programs ONLY take into account your gross income, not other factors that play heavily into your finances.
An example would be my rent. In order for me to work where I do, I have to live in a rather pricey area. I pay $1600 a month for a 2 bed condo to house my family of 4. So right there, 60% of my monthly net income is gone. So for the rest of my month I have $1200 to pay for food, utilities, gas, insurance, phones. At the end of my month I'm lucky if I've got $100 left over after everything.
I'm not asking for some crazy handout, but given the cost of living in my area, you'd think that at least food stamps would have more consideration taken into who gets them. I'm not trying to free load, but until I'm able to move elsewhere, I could use some help from the system that I pay into.
Now imagine trying to have a family of 4 on $13/hr when your rent is even something low like $1000/mo. Just because housing is cheaper in TN than it is in CA doesn't mean everything else is.
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Post by: Grundz
 Ouze wrote:There is an interesting article here about what it's like to work in one of the warehouses (not as an actual Amazon employee, though). Long read.
Again thats a different operation, their same day locations are not contracted
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Post by: SheSpits
I pay 1100 a month that doesnt include electric or gas or even sewer. Plus i have to pay renters insurance thats new to me! Anything below a G a month is straight up hood! NM was nice because cost of living was so low. I paid 750 a month for a 1000SQF apartment in the nice side of town with electric,gas,water and anything else included. Starting pay out there just went up to 10 an hour or 9.
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Post by: Monster Rain
I found an article herethat attempts to figure out where the middle-class starts and ends:
Plenty of smart people have taken a stab at that question. In the past few years, the "middle class" income range has been described as between $32,900 and $64,000 a year (a Pew Charitable Trusts study), between $50,800 and $122,000 (a U.S. Department of Commerce study), and between $20,600 and $102,000 (the U.S. Census Bureau's middle 60% of incomes).
That's a pretty wide spectrum, but 13$ an hour is very, very close to the bottom of even the most generous income range.
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Post by: Aerethan
The lifestyles of people who make 20k vs 100k are vastly different. About 5x different.
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Post by: Ahtman
 Aerethan wrote:The lifestyles of people who make 20k vs 100k are vastly different. About 5x different.
I would say if were are just talking about lifestyle I would think the difference would be even greater than the money alone encompasses. Investing would be an option, vacations can happen, a car (with insurance no less!), ect ect.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Well, just do a thought experiment and live out a month.
Let's say we have the typical American dream family--2 adults, 2 children. Enough that they did their Darwinian contribution and replaced themselves. Let's also assume we are going to Leave it to Beaver style--with the father working full time, the mother tends the home--raises children, etc.
Dad makes a decent wage--middle class income of 50,000/annual. Clears 40,000/annual after taxes. That's around 3300/month. Now let's subtract some bills;
Mortgage: 700/month (assume a 100k home in the Midwest with good credit scores)
Utilities: 225/month (assume summer spike of electricity, winter spike of gas---and a decent energy consuming home--and no heavy water usage)
Health Insurance: 580/month (assume family coverage with dental/eye/I'm not going to go bankrupt if I haven't met my max out of pocket)
Gas: 150/month
Groceries: 500/month (Assume frugal spending here--no eating out)
Phone (Landline or cell): 20/month (I know this is low--but this will hopefully keep the "You don't need a cell phone crowd" away). I do consider cell phone plans (just cheap ones) a necessity for life now. They save lives and I would rather subsidize someone's 20/month phone service then die on their lawn because they can't dial 911.
Trash/Sewer: 25/month
Out of pocket "Life happens" moments: 200/month (Sick kid copay/medication, tire blows out, home window breakage, whatever)
That's 2400/month. That leaves you 800/month to save--if you skip out on cable TV, any luxury activities, retirement pay in, no credit card bills, no travel, no eating out---and assuming you have a 700/month mortgage (which is very likely low). And that's 50,000/year---over twice what they consider poverty level.
So yeah--I don't always agree with "Middle Class" levels--as they tend to include a great deal of families that really aren't. That and I always think of this picture;
/We have a fridge y'all, we're living it up 
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Post by: Grundz
Aerethan wrote:The lifestyles of people who make 20k vs 100k are vastly different. About 5x different.
Actually it's a lot more than that, people at the bottom spend like 90+% of their income on living, people making 100k don't consume 30,000 calories a day or drive cars that consume 100 times more gas. The issue is that inflexible costs, like gas, food, milk, morgage (to a lesser extent) add up just about everything, being able to afford an xbox and a few games with your tax return, once, does not equal a happy lifestyle, the people working a ton of hours also gravitate to gakky food, which makes them lazy and eventually kills them.
In fact if you twist it more, all this scraping along and long hours cause stress and wear people out, hurting their health and eventually killing them, how many people do the rich kill in this way yearly? 
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Post by: Jihadin
Wife and mine income a month.......would make you all want for us to adopt you..... 
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Post by: Monster Rain
I sincerely doubt it.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
 Frazzled wrote: AgeOfEgos wrote:If you have a family of 4 (wife, two children) would put you in the poverty level.
Corrected your typo
Poverty, at any income stream. Little rugrat vacuums!
I missed this gem--and it gave me a good chuckle. I absolutely agree, regardless of what your W2 says---kids definitely drive you to want more salary  .
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Post by: whembly
AgeOfEgos wrote: Frazzled wrote: AgeOfEgos wrote:If you have a family of 4 (wife, two children) would put you in the poverty level.
Corrected your typo
Poverty, at any income stream. Little rugrat vacuums!
I missed this gem--and it gave me a good chuckle. I absolutely agree, regardless of what your W2 says---kids definitely drive you to want more salary .
Kids and a spouse.
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Post by: daedalus
AgeOfEgos wrote:
Mortgage: 700/month (assume a 100k home in the Midwest with good credit scores)
Utilities: 225/month (assume summer spike of electricity, winter spike of gas---and a decent energy consuming home--and no heavy water usage)
Health Insurance: 580/month (assume family coverage with dental/eye/I'm not going to go bankrupt if I haven't met my max out of pocket)
Gas: 150/month
Groceries: 500/month (Assume frugal spending here--no eating out)
Phone (Landline or cell): 20/month (I know this is low--but this will hopefully keep the "You don't need a cell phone crowd" away). I do consider cell phone plans (just cheap ones) a necessity for life now. They save lives and I would rather subsidize someone's 20/month phone service then die on their lawn because they can't dial 911.
Trash/Sewer: 25/month
Out of pocket "Life happens" moments: 200/month (Sick kid copay/medication, tire blows out, home window breakage, whatever)
That's 2400/month. That leaves you 800/month to save--if you skip out on cable TV, any luxury activities, retirement pay in, no credit card bills, no travel, no eating out---and assuming you have a 700/month mortgage (which is very likely low). And that's 50,000/year---over twice what they consider poverty level.
Not to mention clothes for the kids (as a child, I recall having a knack for burning through clothes fast), school fees if applicable, covering extracurricular activities for the kids such as BSA, school trips, or, god forbid, a musical instrument. I suppose the "your fridge is a luxury item" crowd would no doubt find those mostly luxury items, but I've seen kids who played with sticks their entire first 18 years, and as the risk of presuming what's best for other people's kids, they need something more going on above and beyond school. Don't get me wrong though, I played with sticks. My brother and I smacked the hell out of each other with some sticks. I think I still have scars. That doesn't change the fact that we only did that because we wanted to, not because there was nothing else to do. Idle minds are decaying minds. I guess you could count some of that as your "Life happens" budget.
You're also assuming a reasonable house in the midwest for which 50k/year seems to even be high per some of the salaries I've heard people making, and zero debt. Also, no car payment, no car insurance. My parents raised us on about 55k/year, which was pretty awesome for about 20 years ago, but dad also had a company car, which made having a single 8 year old vehicle paid off a long time ago much easier to pull off. It never occurred to me, logistically, how much easier it was on us for mom to still traffic us around or go get groceries for the 10-12 hours that dad was at or going to work.
One of my coworkers has two kids, and a stay at home wife. He makes roughly between 40-45k. I'm unsure of his complete financial situation, but he's told me that living as frugally as he can, he has about $50 a month to save or spend on emergencies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the cheapest cell phone plan I've seen is a T-Mobile one. $30/month, 100 min talk and unlimited data. The vast majority of my communication is email, and I have the talk for emergencies. That would probably be best for your estimate. That's per line effectively though. If I had a daughter, you can bet she'd have her own phone as early as about 12 or 13.
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Post by: Jihadin
Wife is a GS14....first off
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Post by: Cheesecat
No need to brag.
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Post by: Grundz
Edited by AgeOfEgos
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Post by: Jihadin
Serious lack knowledge on pay rates of the US government
But since you made a asinine comment Grundz
We clear well over 10K after taxes a month
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Post by: daedalus
 Jihadin wrote:Serious lack knowledge on pay rates of the US government
But since you made a asinine comment Grundz
We clear well over 10K after taxes a month
Serious question then: CAN you adopt someone over the age of 18?
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Post by: Jihadin
Can you pretend to 18 years over again  ....wait...whats coverage for kids under their parents plan under ACA? 27? Come hug Daddy Little D
edit 2
I'm so going to disappoint you as a Father...so later on in life you be in the Clock Tower....with a scope rifle...screaming how I wouldn't let you play 2nd base.....
edit 3
and we don't have to worry about child labor laws then
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Post by: daedalus
Jihadin wrote:Can you pretend to 18 years over again ....wait...whats coverage for kids under their parents plan under ACA? 27? Come hug Daddy Little D
Well, I WISH I could be 18 again. Maybe that counts? 27 still misses me by a couple years, but assuming I get to keep my current job, ACA isn't a concern either.
I'm so going to disappoint you as a Father...so later on in life you be in the Clock Tower....with a scope rifle...screaming how I wouldn't let you play 2nd base.....
Christ, that's dark.
and we don't have to worry about child labor laws then
I'll work for it. I don't mind.
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Post by: Jihadin
I would so take the gas prices at age 18 though...and my Ford Terino...my very first car....
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Post by: sebster
The article is a bit odd, and most likely is deliberately written that way to score points on Obama. I mean, yeah, warehousing jobs might not be part of Obama's new middle class, but warehouse jobs aren't the only jobs at Amazon and its a bit weird pretending they are.
Grundz wrote:In fact if you twist it more, all this scraping along and long hours cause stress and wear people out, hurting their health and eventually killing them, how many people do the rich kill in this way yearly?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110616193627.htm
"The investigators found that approximately 245,000 deaths in the United States in the year 2000 were attributable to low levels of education, 176,000 to racial segregation, 162,000 to low social support, 133,000 to individual-level poverty, 119,000 to income inequality, and 39,000 to area-level poverty."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AgeOfEgos wrote:I missed this gem--and it gave me a good chuckle. I absolutely agree, regardless of what your W2 says---kids definitely drive you to want more salary .
They also make getting that extra salary pointless, because you still never see any of it yourself
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Post by: MrMoustaffa
I did this job they're talking about. Its pretty demanding, but picking wasnt too bad. Just a lot of walking. All that really sucked was that it would get hot (warehouse was getting to 80 degrees when it was 10 degrees outside) and there was no music or anything to help pass the time. Other jobs though, like anything in receiving looked like a nightmare.
pay wasn't too bad, lord knows I've had worse jobs, but its way better than working retail. I would consider it a "get you by" job for people in college. Decent pay for a single guy if you can stand the hours. During the summer though that heat would be murder. I also don't see this as a job you could support a family with, there's just no way. You'd have to spend money on childcare because you would be way too tired to take care of them yourself.
Only other thing I remember about the job was that I spent around 50% of my time handling dildoes and shoes. I was starting to think that's all Amazon sold by the end of it. Ended up getting terminated because I had some unrelated medical issues that caused me to miss too many days.
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Post by: Monster Rain
I worked my way through college slinging dildos in a Amazon warehouse!
You whippersnappers don't know how good you have it!
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Post by: Jihadin
I had a summer job lately....130+ heat...wearing tacticool body armor....running around at times....driving at times....looking for some insurgents name Akbar up in the mountains...towns...villages...valley....tunnels...rocks....never did find Akbar...a bunch of his friends we found though....they do this neat thing with a pressure cooker.....or maintain some of the dirtiest weapon...damn things still work....well.....it was Paradise.....especially living near the infamous "Poo Pond" of Kandahar
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Post by: Alfndrate
 Jihadin wrote:Wife and mine income a month.......would make you all want for us to adopt you.....
Uncle Jihadin, if you adopt me, I come with my own guns *puppy dog eyes*
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Post by: Forar
djones520 wrote:and then basic cost of items is significantly higher then what it is in the US.
That's not always our fault though.
Part of it is a relic of a bygone age when the USD to CAN conversion was closer to 1.5-1.6
Then our dollar got stronger while the US's got weaker but it took companies a long time to get away from that "$6 US, $10 Can" approach to pricing things.
Not to mention how smug I got to feel when we broke parity on the positive side for once in my lifetime. Now whenever I check we're usually hovering within 5 cents or so on either side.
Edit: obviously I'm talking about goods shipped across the boarder here, though. Yes, the fact the same McD's meal doubles in price (depending on where you're comparing) can be a bit grating.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
Well, back on topic, 5000 jobs paying 11-13/hour in a city the size of Chattanooga is huge. That is on par with a large hospital or university opening in terms of economic influence.
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Post by: Shadowseer_Kim
Well since are are talking about a job in Chattanooga TN, let us look at the cost of living there.
If I made $30,000 in Eugene Oregon, I would only need to make $26,211 in Chattanooga, TN to afford the same lifestyle.
The primary difference was that housing is 32% less in TN. This is not a shock. I looked via the Century 21 website and found no end of 3 bedroom houses for around 20k-30k.
Meaning if you make $18k after taxes. If you got your wife to work a job for 2 years to help cover the bills, you would have your house paid off in 2 years.
Then you could look at having two kids, and using your income for whatever.
Sounds pretty good to me.
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Post by: Ouze
I didn't believe those numbers so I looked. Today I learned you can buy a house for $20,000, and a house you'd want to live in for $30,000.
As a New Yorker transplanted elsewhere, this is mind blowing.
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Post by: whembly
Ouze wrote:I didn't believe those numbers so I looked. Today I learned you can buy a house for $20,000, and a house you'd want to live in for $30,000. As a New Yorker transplanted elsewhere, this is mind blowing.
You're not talking about Detroit..eh? But, yeah... NY/NJ area home prices are flat out ridiculous. Bet it was a shocker for you when you moved to IA.
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Post by: daedalus
Hell, I've lived in the middle of Illinois and now St. Louis my entire life and I find this mindblowing.
If only we could develop a means of getting a house out of that area into a place you'd actually WANT to live.
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Post by: gorgon
 Monster Rain wrote:I found an article herethat attempts to figure out where the middle-class starts and ends:
Plenty of smart people have taken a stab at that question. In the past few years, the "middle class" income range has been described as between $32,900 and $64,000 a year (a Pew Charitable Trusts study), between $50,800 and $122,000 (a U.S. Department of Commerce study), and between $20,600 and $102,000 (the U.S. Census Bureau's middle 60% of incomes).
Obviously, these discussions are highly reliant upon where you live. The idea that the middle class ends at $122K in the Philadelphia suburbs is fairly ridiculous. Two very average professional jobs doesn't make a couple upper class or lead to an upper class lifestyle here. I figure maybe the conversation begins around $180K in these parts, with $200K probably being a safer number.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
daedalus wrote:Hell, I've lived in the middle of Illinois and now St. Louis my entire life and I find this mindblowing.
If only we could develop a means of getting a house out of that area into a place you'd actually WANT to live.
The area of Tennessee in question is actually kind of nice. Chattanooga is also within the economic spheres of Nashville and Atlanta.
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Post by: kronk
Ouze wrote:I didn't believe those numbers so I looked. Today I learned you can buy a house for $20,000, and a house you'd want to live in for $30,000.
As a New Yorker transplanted elsewhere, this is mind blowing.
I'm flying to North of Chicago tonight for a house hunting trip this weekend, coincidentally. $30k won't cover jack in the neighborhoods I'm looking. 
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Post by: Jihadin
Keeping my fingers and toes cross for the wife to land a embassy job in Thailand.....my bennies alone will draw close to 100K baht.....
edit 2
She also put in for Aussie land......that might be bad....some silly Aussie going to try to scare me with a spider and he's coming out the house with two knives in the hand and three in the knee...now I would have to hunt down the spider on the house with a m1bayonet clenched between my teeth and a bowie ready to go.....wearing my boonie with Apocalypse Now playing in the back ground...
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Post by: Monster Rain
100k baht?
That's a lot of Go-Go girls!
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Post by: Jihadin
I'm also half Thai so I can buy and own property there to and leave it in the Will for my daughter when I go to the pearly gates when they bury me with two turn tables at my feet...no Lady Boys....NO NO NO NO
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Post by: Monster Rain
Oh who hasn't made that "mistake" at least once?
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Post by: Jihadin
Who's willing to admit to it
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Post by: Forar
>.>
<.<
....
*stares at the ground intently*
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Post by: Jihadin
Whistle...don't forget to whistle.....
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Post by: Shadowseer_Kim
why consider it a mistake....
...
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Post by: sebster
 whembly wrote:You're not talking about Detroit..eh? But, yeah... NY/NJ area home prices are flat out ridiculous. Bet it was a shocker for you when you moved to IA.
I was in New York, and the wife and I were looking at houses for sale in a Manhattan real estate window for a bit of fun, and the prices looked pretty reasonable to us Seriously, Perth house prices are insane. A 4 bedroom house on a small block of land, in a decent suburb costs a million dollars. That's just for a decent suburb - for the top end suburbs on the coast or the ones that feed in to the best schools, in those places a million dollars might buy you 3 bedroom, one living space house at best.
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Post by: gossipmeng
Prices in Toronto are getting pretty high too. Houses in the outskirts of the city will run about $400-500K. Rent will run around $1000 per month for a 1 bedroom in most areas.
Although here a cashier at McDonalds wage is $11 per hour, which is decent compared to what some of you have mentioned about your regions.
I feel quite fortunate to be in my situation.
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Post by: Aerethan
http://www.city-data.com/county/Orange_County-CA.html
A lot of interesting data on there. Granted the numbers are 4 years old, but I can tell you that Orange County has not gotten any cheaper in that time.
And regardless of housing costs, minimum wage here is $8/ hr.
The average 1 bedroom apartment in my area is $1300/mo. Which assuming 12% in taxes, would take 185 hours to earn at minimum wage.
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Post by: Easy E
I feel this thread needs more "Old Economy Steven" in it.
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Post by: Monster Rain
 Easy E wrote:I feel this thread needs more "Old Economy Steven" in it.
Is it too highbrow?
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