So Ive been playing IG for about 2 years now. I used a lot of fluffy lists i the past and never really won many games as the majority of the people at my local shop play competitively. So I have started to play fairly competitively and Ive built a gunline guard list and I have a mech list. I do not play forge world and I unfortunetly dont have the money to order the books or some of the models.

Standard games at the shop are played about 1850pts but 2k is usually played. Right now the most common armies I play are nids, chaos marines, daemon, eldar, dark eldar, and tau.

Now a little about the lists they run. Tau I have little trouble with because my leman russes usually have a heavy armor to take shots and return a good amount of fire and artillery usually just blows them apart.

Daemons are either run in monstrous creature spam or in daemonettes hordes which is actually very terrifying. These list I feel like my mechanized guard would easily be able to go through rather easily.

Chaos marines Ive actually beaten and tied with but most common are nurgle marines or thousand suns, I have played against abbadon a couple times but these lists usually focus on 3 squads of the marine choice in rhinos with arhiman,typhus, abaddon, with a hell drake, forge fiend, obliterators or defiler.

Nids Im rather not worried about as its a close friend and most of our games are for fun but hes had some crazy scary lists recenlty where hes got 2 flyrants with 2 20man termagant squads with devours in pods, usually doom and some hive guard and 1 tervigon. The pods and flyrants are hardest for me as if the flyrants get iron arm they are super hard to hit or even bring down. Once the pods come in thats 60 shots that just shred rear armor of vehicles or just blow squads off the board and there 20 guys in the squad that are usually fearless do to synapse.

Eldar. Jet Bikes, their skimmer transports that turn pens into glances, and 3 wraith lords. Guy usually has 2 basic squads that sit back to hold home objectives behind a line while everything else moves up in your face

Last but not least the Dark eldar. This army is one of the most competitive players/ armies at our shop, usually either wyches or warrios in raiders with I believe 2-3 venoms with these crazy blaster units inside, lylith or duke as hq. A couple of ravegers and a razor wing. In games against this list you usually know by the end of turn 2 who wins. Basically everything moves up shooting or turbo boosting to get a crazy cover save as night fight adds to their cover from turbo boosting skimmer. The units usually all have FnP which always turns to be a problem. The problem with mech and gunline for this list is either it gets in gunlines face to fast to where the squads just tear through you in assault or if your mech they blow up your chimeras and before you know it your fighting a defensive battle in your deployment. This army is the one I want to actaully beat more than anything...

With the general Idea of what I play what I am asking dakka is starting from scratch with the codex. Building a list and then going over tactics such as how to deploy(this tends to be a problem for me at times) and then go over other general tactics that anyone can think of.

Ive used SW allies and they have improved against some armies but others just fail terribly against.

So now heres a little of what I run, mech guard list and gunline both have 2 vendettas each as thats almost mandatory to fight these armies, and Im just looking at the best all rounder list to take on most of these armies DE mostly.

Mech is rather easy as its CCS w/plasma, 2 mech vets with 3 meltas each, 3 mech vets squads with 3 plasma each sometimes it swaps with 3 melta squads and 2 plasma but it all depends on how I feel lol. The as mentioned 2 vendettas(Ive though about getting vet squads in here with 3 flamers and a demo charge or 3 meltas and a demo charge, the flamers worked very well for me to kick units off objectives) Then I usually either have 2-3 russes, they vary Ive tried 3 LRBT's, Ive thrown in an eradictor with bolter sponsons to gain an edge on night fighting and crazy cover save units, But recently Ive been running 2 vanquishers with plasma sponsons on each and lascannon hulls. 1 usually has pask. These russes blow armor and transports up from a distance and the sponsons go to town the following turn to kill anything else. I norally deploy chimeras up front so they can speed ahead and get to the enemy to make use of the plasma and melta weapons while russes trail behind slowly and take shots off of the opponent. Ive thought about putting the russes up front if my opponent goes first as they heavier armor is harder to kill and it will give the chimeras a base cover save.

In foot guard/gunline I run an aegis with quad and 2 vendettas. CCS with standard for moral and a lascannon to sit back. I then usually have 2 platoons where the PCS is either with autocannons or lascannons sitting back and granting FRFSRF or they have x4 flamers each and try to get objectives late game. I then run a minimum of 6 infantry squads usually equiped with lascannons. I find that with this base I get chewed apart easily as infantry squads die easily and I can never get enough shooting to bring down the opponent from a distance, especially the DE. Then I will usually run 3 russes, they are the same options Ive tried with the above mech list. With this list its simple for deployment. Line with quad somewhere with best sight to board. Infantry squads up front with the CCS somewhere in the middle so the Squads are all buffed from the standard and I can issue orders around. Then the tanks are in the rear so they arent assaulted. This style is already hard to play as I am forced to hunker down and hope I can keep my opponent at bay and it doesnt allow me to go out and get objectives and basically I have to hope I can hold mine. Simple tips I am wondering should I arm the infantry squads with flamers so they have something to counter horde and assult because if one squad gets assaulted and dies theres gunna be a flamer nearby to do damage. I tried plasma guns but the guys killed themselves most of the time or missed. Melta guns are the only other option as transports get in my face I need to bring them down.

So if anyone is still reading this novel at the moment what do I do, critique the lists, and add some tips for against these armies. Yet again I am sorry I dont use forgeworld as I dont have the money for it but if I did I would have sabre lascannons all over and vultures with punisher guns, then again I probably would lose as much if I did.

Thanks for any and all help!

Good list, very versatile. Some of my favourite Guard tricks that I'd also put into use are:
1.) Leman Russ Punisher. 20 shots from the mini gun is enough to rip through infantry and vehicles. Most vehicles nowadays have 12-13 Front armour tops, and with 20 shots you have a decent chance of scoring some 6's and glancing hits. You score three of these glances and your enemy's tank is dead.
2.) Skyshield Landing Pad. Grants you an automatic 4+ InvSv, which is something very useful against armies like Tau or Eldar who like their long range weaponry and fliers. You slap 2 Basilisks and a Techpriest on that, and just fire away while all those pesky Rail Guns slide off ya.

Just small personal preferences. Hope it helps!

What would you kit the punisher out with as well, Heavy bolters to increase weight of fire?

And with the sky shield I would probably run it in a mech list as the artillery wouldnt be able to be flanked easily. But in a gunline list the infantry would be better suited with the line as it covers more bodies.

How do you equip your infantry squads? would you say just lascannons or would you have a couple with lascannons sitting back with other squads with flamer or melta charging up?

My mechanized list im not worried about as its pretty straight forward.

The gunline is the hardest to work with at the moment.

You don't seem to have any terribly wonky ideas with regard to list building or basic tactics. My guess is that it's probably something going on on the table top, which we'd need to see battle reports to know what's going on.

The biggest problem with guard is usually force concentration. Mech lists will help with this, as will the russes which you're using. Just keep them together (not necessarily the biggest fan of rushing mechvets forward in front of russes - mechvets are a defensive weapon to protect the tanks, not the other way around), and you SHOULD do fine.

And if you insist on playing a gunline, it's actually really easy. Just deploy and roll dice. I wouldn't worry too much about tactics, as anything you're going to want to do like moving or assaulting or whatever, is likely just going to make things worse for you.

I would agree i dont believe its my lists as i generally have taken all my ideas from threads on this site. I would have to say my biggest problem was always not knowing my opponents units.

I will have to keep the mech vets as defensive units in the back of my mind to try out in my next game.

I dont prefer to play foot guard but i do insist on trying to at least perfect it. Any suggestions as to how infantry squads are kitted, ive been contemplating running some meltas and flamers in the squads to add some closer range punch.

Couple other topics i had thought about was how are hybrid lists, i was thinking about having a platoon on 3-5 squads with lascannons and what not behind a line to hold home objectives while a mech force moved up or at least tried to flank.

And are any of the advisors recommended. The astropath would seem to be a waste as my only reserves are 2 vendettas. If i ran one other unit in reserves like stormies or marbo then i might throw him in. Officer of the fleet could be good if my opponent even had anything in reserves. And master of ordnance seems like a possibility for the gunline but i know that he scatters all the time so im not sure why hes a "master" of ordnance.

Have you tried running Exterminator LR? With a 4 shot autocannon that is twin linked I find them great for taking care of pesky DE vehicles.

Also with large blob lists I almost think it is required to run 2 CCS just so you can try to get "bring it down" or "fire on my target" for up to 4 seperate platoon squads. Again this really helps against DE since you will be able to either twin link your heavy weapon or remove the jink save of thier skimmers if you are feeling lucky with your to hit rolls.

Owl

I have indeed tried the exterminator but that was really only against eldar. I will have to give it a go against dark eldar. Would you run it lascannon and bolters or what load out do you recommend? I tried lascannon and MM sponsons but was to happy with it.

And for the foot guard list i do think i might try running identical CCS's. Anyone think vox's wouldnt be a bad idea for order?

The problem with facing the dark eldar is them turbo boosting up and getting cover saves, all their units have FnP and the darn flicker fields are annoying. The guy that plays them also makes a lot of the saves too. But im pretty sure their not weighted dice. So i personally think i need more s6 weapons to insta kill units or get a ton of flamers for counter assult. But i just need enough heavy weapons to fire to blow up his ships from a distance.

Any other tips for fighting a Dark eldar list like this?

I think in a situation as this bringing the most fire power I can is probably the best route for a gunline and if I run mech what tactics do I use to fight them with, if I lead the slow charge up with russes lance weapons will tear right through, but that just gives my chimeras a chance to advance up a bit. to get closer and use the special weapons.

in general, i believe competitive guard list built has two major points to consider:
1-run everything cheap, unupgraded, and whatever you decide to take, take equal or more than two.

2-make every units specialize in one or two specific roles that they are good with their point cost (ie: vendetta for tank/TEQ/MC hunting, plasmavet for MC or MEQs, manticore for popping LR and annihilating hordes, infantry squads for meatshield or suicide squad, etc), do not attempt to jack-of-all-trade, ever. It might work for marines but not for guards.

once you got these two points, competitive guard list building shouldn`t be hard anymore.

As for your lists, actually both of them are almost quite solid, but competitively, I would suggest combining the two together. We aren`t in 5th edition anymore where guards can just spam meltavet and russes and vendettas then blow your opponent up with blasts and lots of ap1/2 in smile. 6th edition has nerf the vehicles a lot by introducing the hull point and buffing AP1/2 weapons, therefore a list consists of pure vehicles, although can output a lot of fire power at range, can be wiped out pretty easily if your opponent knows what is he doing. (drop pods, meltas, flyers, etc)

the problem with your footlist is also lack of mobility. although the infantry blobs are pretty good when using as meatshield to protect vulnerable tanks and artilleries, yet you do not have a reliable long range attack. yes, paskisher is reliable for popping armor at long range, but it does not neglect cover, therefore anything that put himself behind a ruin would have at least 1/3 chance of making your shot useless. Plus, all your weapons are either long range one shot or short range small blast, therefore you are gonna have a lot of pain when facing anything that sit themselves behind covers, like tau.

so in general, i suggest you combine the two lists together, using your blobs behind aegis to protect your tanks and artilleries if you have one, vendettas flying around popping tanks and MCs, plasmavets sit in chimera to defend vulnerable points from enemy meq or MCs, meanwhile, tanks and artilleries, well protected, shoot blasts and long range weapons to make your opponent cry.

that`s it, hope it helps

btw, you may want to put your warlord inside a chimera, as slay the warlord these days is a very important victory point in many missions.

 tankboy145 wrote:
I would agree i dont believe its my lists as i generally have taken all my ideas from threads on this site. I would have to say my biggest problem was always not knowing my opponents units.

I will have to keep the mech vets as defensive units in the back of my mind to try out in my next game.

I dont prefer to play foot guard but i do insist on trying to at least perfect it. Any suggestions as to how infantry squads are kitted, ive been contemplating running some meltas and flamers in the squads to add some closer range punch.

Couple other topics i had thought about was how are hybrid lists, i was thinking about having a platoon on 3-5 squads with lascannons and what not behind a line to hold home objectives while a mech force moved up or at least tried to flank.

And are any of the advisors recommended. The astropath would seem to be a waste as my only reserves are 2 vendettas. If i ran one other unit in reserves like stormies or marbo then i might throw him in. Officer of the fleet could be good if my opponent even had anything in reserves. And master of ordnance seems like a possibility for the gunline but i know that he scatters all the time so im not sure why hes a "master" of ordnance.

My recommendation is to go to Google type in 1d4chan "name of army" tactics and read all of them. I personally didn't no anything about the armies have played but now I know what is a threat and how it is a threat. Very helpful.

I see dark elder as your biggest problem. I would do a blob guard list and surround your tanks with guard and possible an Aegis. Dark Lances are very scary to tanks. Autocannon heavy weapons teams should punch there armor apart. Use order and you can make them to ignore there cover saves.

tankboy145 wrote:I would have to say my biggest problem was always not knowing my opponents units.

Well, if that's your biggest problem, I wouldn't worry too much. Those kinds of issues will resolve themselves over time and with experience. Also, don't be afraid to ask your opponent about his list and what it does. I'll unabashedly pick over my opponents list and ask questions, and I'll also go over new things with my opponents when I field them. You gain absolutely no bonus points for winning with secrecy.

tankboy145 wrote:I dont prefer to play foot guard but i do insist on trying to at least perfect it. Any suggestions as to how infantry squads are kitted, ive been contemplating running some meltas and flamers in the squads to add some closer range punch.

Well, all I can do is direct you to my 6th ed guard battle reports. After trying to make foot guard work, my end conclusion was to play mech guard. Some foot units to hide on objectives behind an ADL is one thing, but as a comprehensive strategy, foot units are just too weak in this rules edition and new codex environment. If they had Sv3+ or better, we might be talking about a different story, but guardsmen with only a 5+ in a world with readily-ignorable cover saves... forget it. Much less actually moving up the table anywhere.

tankboy145 wrote:Officer of the fleet could be good if my opponent even had anything in reserves. And master of ordnance seems like a possibility for the gunline but i know that he scatters all the time so im not sure why hes a "master" of ordnance.

Actually, you're in the dead zone for reserves advisers. On the one hand, as you say, an astropath isn't really that worth it to bring just a couple of units on, usually, but on the other hand, you do have reserves, which means that an officer of the fleet will actually help your opponent by delaying his stuff from coming in until after your stuff is on the table, allowing him to counterattack.

The master of ordnance isn't actually THAT bad. He benefits from both BS4, and is always in range of a BiD order. His accuracy is sloppy with the extra D6, but with BS4 and twin-linking, it's not actually that bad. The real problem is that he's just Ap3, but for only 30 points, what can you expect? Throw him in a CCS with a standard and a lascannon, and you've got a decent support base with orders, rerolls to morale, and some moderately threatening firepower. For not that expensive.

tankboy145 wrote:And for the foot guard list i do think i might try running identical CCS's. Anyone think vox's wouldnt be a bad idea for order?

Orders are nice, but not THAT necessary, and I certainly wouldn't bother wasting the points on a vox net. If you also need a spare standard, and want another tiny, cheap weapon support squad, then yeah, go ahead and add in that second CCS.

Remember, of course, that you don't HAVE to run them identically.

tankboy145 wrote:The problem with facing the dark eldar is them turbo boosting up and getting cover saves.

Firstly, volume of fire. If you brought enough anti-tank, you've brought enough to handle dark eldar. Jink may be annoying, but they're still all AV10/11 open-topped vehicles.

If you're REALLY that concerned, then take a couple of hydras and watch as your opponent's army simply disappears. They get full-BS TL S7 4-shot weapons that ignore jink saves. Several months ago, when fliers were more of a thing, I entered a local tournament with 4 hydras. One of my games was against DE. He was tabled turn 4, despite starting the game with 11 vehicles. When you're a DE player and come across a guard player who looks like this:



... you know you're in trouble.

That said, you're probably better off figuring out how to handle DE without using hydras as a crutch. As said, they're handlable with regular anti-tank weapons. Hell, they're handlable with plenty worse. If you're bringing a mech list,for example, you have two weapons per chimera that can down a DE vehicle.

Ailaros, do you have any specific squad layout configurations for IG foots? I mean physical placements, I've seen you use a "circular" deployment/movement pattern before to mitigate VS flamers/blast.
Im going to a tourney soon and need advice on the nitty gritty of tactics rather than strategies or the more "net advice". Cheers.

I'd agree with the general sentiment that the lists are good, I think most likely what's lacking is good decision making on what's shooting at what, and here is my example: Taking vanquishers is a waste of your points in my opinion, ESPECIALLY if you have lascannons in your squads. That's your anti-armor right there. A tank is easy kill as opposed to your multiple platoons where each IS has a lascannon. Plus you can use a bring it down to reroll misses. Not a bad deal for bringing down armor and MC's.

Then you're free to blast the crap out of units with normal russes and their templates, or exterminators and their metric ton of dice.

Something else I feel that needs mentioning, I don't remember reading about your artillery? Every game I play the basilisks pay for themselves. They're relatively cheap compared to their output damage and will draw a lot of fire in general from the rest of your army. Ex. If a player has to deep strike a squad to take care of the artillery battery behind a mountain, then they've wasted time and points on dealing with one unit, not to mention that he's then in perfect range for the rest of your guardsmen to FRFSRF on them.

In short: target choice and priority.

Lots of advice and much appreciated!

The id4chan would definitely help and a friend actually has started playing DE so that will also give me the chance to read over the majority of the units i play against.

I am seeing a lot of my lists are good comments so im at least happy about that. Only concerns i have are that i usually run vanqs with lascannons and plasma sponsons. Reason for them is because even though i spam lascannons with the infantry squads its rather hard to still pen av14 reliably. Ive had many games where ive gone through 4-6 infantry squads firing their lascannons at raiders and monoliths and the vehicle still get up close and unload nasty troops in my lines.

With that said im gunna actually build up a 2k list later when im out of work for criticizing. I do love my russes but for a more competitive list i believe that the artillery might need to be thrown in.

@ailaros i dont have my codex on me but i thought the MoO always scattered the full distance and his bs never reduced even in Los. I do a agree hydras would be a nice twist to add in but i also agree i should focus on winning without them because i dont want to list tailor but i would rather have a good all commers list.

I also believe i will probably add a flamer or a melta gun to each infantry squad to add fire power.

I also prefer having multiple infantry squads to fire at separate targets but should i run any blobs with commissars? Normally i dont unless i have marine allies because most of the time my commissar is challenged out or the squads are killed by sweeping advance.

Master of Ordnance can still reduce the scatter by his BS if he has LoS to the target, and he only rolls the additional d6 scatter if an arrow is rolled.

As for the Commissars, you can just get an infantry sergeant to accept the challenge so your Commissar doesn't die right away.

<3 1d4chan

Alright thanks! I will have to keep that in mind.

Just waiting to get out of work and i will build a gunline list up. Mechanized im not so worried about but i will throw that one up as well.

Yeah, a master of ordnance has a 58% chance of having the template touch the point he was aiming at, or to be 1/2" away when he rolls a hit on the scatter die. That's not really that bad, especially given that you can re-roll scatters against vehicles and monstrous creatures. He's somewhere between BS2 and BS3 when used correctly, which isn't THAT bad. Once again, the real problem is that he's stuck with Ap3, not that he's stuck with bad BS.

And no, I wouldn't bother blobbing, and yes, I would bother with weapon upgrades for infantry squads.

As for how to use foot guard, it isn't THAT tricky. Spread guys out against template weapons, point heavy weapons along good fire lanes (and without giving stuff cover saves as much as you can), and do the other obvious things, like make speedbumps against assaulters and castle against deepstrikers. Given that the only thing you can really do with foot guard is to play a gunline, and gunlines are stupid easy to play, there's not much advice that's needed.

Alright here goes a foot list: 2k IG

CCS 115pts
Lascannon
Standard
MoO

CCS 85pts
lascannon
Standard

PCS 50pts
x4 flamers

x4 infantry squads(not blobbed) 320pts
x4 meltas
x4 lascannons


PCS 50pts
x4 flamers

x4Infantry squads 320pts (not blobbed)
x4 lascannons
x4 melta guns

x2 veteran squads 230pts(each squad goes in a vendetta
x6 flamers(3each)
demolitions on both squads

Vendetta 260pts (not in a squad)
Vendetta

Vanquisher 260pts
lascannon
plasma sponsons
pask

Vanquisher 210pts
lascannon
plasma sponsons

Aegis Line/Quad 100pts

List updated 2k exactly

Seems like a solid list, with all the major bases covered, but there are one or two things I would comment on:

1) The Chimera for the CCS seems a little out of place, one AV12 vehicle will be easily singled out and has the potential to give away First Blood easily. The extra mobility doesn't seem to be needed for the infantry-heavy list, and I don't think the bonus to LOS will really make that much of a difference.

2) The PIS with flamers and LC seem a little confused to me. They seem geared towards AT, but the flamers imply either that you intend to advance, wasting the LCs power, or you want them as a deterrent to chargers. Outside of a blob firing four of them on overwatch, a flamer is not going to save a PIS from being slaughtered in CC by any meaningful threat. I would say keep the flamers if you plan to advance with the squads, but drop the LC. With the other platoon, the CCS and the vendettas, I think you probably have anti-tank covered and could afford to drop them. If, on the other hand, you plan to stay still and shoot, drop the flamers or upgrade them to meltas like the other platoon. I think this would be a better use of the points you spent on the chimera.

3) What role to you intend the LRBTs to play in this list? With the amount of AT you have, I would say they are not needed vs tanks, and with the flamer vets and hordes of lasguns, anti-light-infatry is also covered. That leaves anti MEQ/TEQ, but if you plan on using them to kill heavy infantry, Executioners (for AP2) or Punshers/Exterminators (for torrents of fire) would be better choices. Also, I would go out of my way to make full use of the Heavy rule and put sponsons on the tanks. Plasma for the former (although you will probably only get 2 tanks as they are expensive) or HBs for the latter. In general with Lemans, I find it is better to specialise in one thing than try and do everything.

You're bringing a 2,000 point list without taking advantage of 2 FOCs. That automatically puts you at a very serious disadvantage.

And naked LRBTs are a waste of 150 points. You'll get more use out of a pair of plasma cannon armored sentinels than those things...

So as im out doing military stuff i wont be able to update the list right away but i will agree to drop the chimera, only reason i put it in was to basically not grant slay the warlord easily. And behind a wall with 4 up cover its got some survivability. We do have hell drakes in the meta so they occasionally will come right on and smoke the hq.

The idea with the flamers with lascannons is to also add more anti horde. Because as 1 squad gets assaulted and swept away there will then be a flamer and a rapid firing lasguns to do wounds as with dark eldar the majority of my guardsmen will be wasted as the lascannons will be used to kill transports. But i see your point and i will probably drop the chimera and upgrade the flamers to melta.

Now with the russes i was going for the cheap av14 with a large blast so i can pop transports and force my opponent to spread out and hug cover. But what suggestions would you recommend with the russes and for sposonsons for them. Should i stick with my vanqs with lascannon and plasma sponsons? My russes usually die i. Assault or get easily destroyed due to lance weapons so i mean it seems pointless to sink points into them, unless i can be convinced otherwise.

@ailaros i only see double FOC im a foot guard list if i spammed multiple platoons but otherwise its not needed and if i add more armor it takes more away from the gunline theme but i would have to reduce the amount of infantry squads to do so. I see double foc viable for mech but i dont see it for gunline much. What ideas would you have for it?

6 manticores? I normally dislike them, but in those quantities, why not? Moreover, 6 deathstrikes. You're basically guaranteed to get a couple of shots off right away, and then a couple more the next turn. Add camo netting and an ADL for instant hilarity.

You could also run russes independently, rather than in squads, to help prevent overkill. Really, any support unit could benefit from this.

Plus, if you really want orders, you can take 4 CCSs. With 4 masters of ordnance, you're actually not that unlikely to hit stuff with them.

And yes, stick with your vanquishers with plasma cannons. In an increasingly MC-heavy world, being able to put wounds down early and often is a good thing. Plus, you have volume of fire AND Ap2, which means you're also going to be better against terminators and vehicles.

The suggestion for Las/plas vanquishers is a solid one, other good setups include a Exterminators with HB sponsons, possibly a lascannon, which can put the hurt on light to medium infantry as well as light vehicles, or (slightly more situational) a 3xHB Punisher, possibly with Pask. If you face a lot of MCs, the volume of fire and rerolls to wound should be able to force enough saves to weaken/kill most MCs, and if they are still standing, you have plenty of lascannons and meltas to finish them off. Other Russ variants may be more useful depending on your local meta, but you should be able to specialise easily should you need anti-infatry (Punisher/Exterminator) or AT/ MC (Vanquisher/Executioner). And definitely run them sepertely, not in squads.

The idea of using flamers in the way you suggested is certainly doable, but personally I would go for meltas on the PIS and run a 4xflamer PCS. Most of my lists include at least 3 of these squads, and the idea is to manouvre them behind the area you are likely to be charged, lose the assaulted squad, and unleash flaming death. This is the same principle as your PIS with flamers, but more concentrated, as it is unlikely you would be able to bring 3-4 flamers into range with seperate squads. That way, the PIS can focus on AT with lascannon and melta , while 4 flamer templates should kill/significantly weaken most charging units, especially if they roll poorly for consolidation after combat. You can always divert other units to finish them off if needed.

Personally I've never seen the advantage of the vanquisher. It's an anti-tank russ when the guard already has anit-tank options out the wazoo. Plus a russ can't take advantage of bring it down. Where you have an 150 point russ you could grab, a CCS and a heavy weapons team decked out with lascannons. With bring it down, you reroll all of your failed to hits, sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

In my opinion the best use of russes is taking out MEQ or TEQ with a demolisher/executioner.

Pretty much I find it hard to justify taking an anti tank/MC weapon that won't benefit from one of the Imperial Guard's most useful weapon: orders.

The advantage of the Vanquisher in my opinion is that it is more effective against AV13/14 than LCs, as well as against MCs. With LC and PC, they can also do anti MEQ/TEQ as well, whereas the executioner struggles at anti-tank and the demolisher has too short a range. As I mentioned, I think it's best to specialise with russes, and the Vanquisher will do one thing, and do it well, rather than trying to be a jack-of-all-trades. You can then take another russ geared for a more anti-infantry role, such as a HB Punisher/exterminator.

The CCS and HWTs are less good due to the poor Ld of the HWTs meaning orders are hard to use effectively, and the setup coupld potnetially give away 3 KP (2+ Slay The Warlord) and can be killed by small arms. The vanquisher requires dedicated AT fire to kill, only gives one KP, can score in BGNT.

 Paradigm wrote:
The advantage of the Vanquisher in my opinion is that it is more effective against AV13/14 than LCs, as well as against MCs.

The improvement is marginal for a vanquisher's chances to pen a vehicle over a HWT (9.62% vs. 8.25%), that's without commands as well. Note that you also have points left over with the HWT. I do agree that HWT's are squishier, but throwing the LC team within your normal infantry squads (in the back you basically have 8 free wounds before they get touched and a nice bump in leadership!)

 Paradigm wrote:
As I mentioned, I think it's best to specialise with russes, and the Vanquisher will do one thing, and do it well, rather than trying to be a jack-of-all-trades. You can then take another russ geared for a more anti-infantry role, such as a HB Punisher/exterminator.

There are certainly advantages to both, but my big fear whenever I spend that many points on a specialized unit is that it'll die and I'll be left high and dry with no anti-tank! Just some thoughts, don't get me wrong, I've run vanquishers before and they do their job well, but mine always have a bad habit of exploding in the first or second turn :-p

A vanquisher won't blow away like a fart on the breeze. A CCS and a HWS is a good way to lose both the warlord and first blood points.

Plus, once you pay for that vanquisher, you can give them two plasma cannons and a lascannon for only 55 more points, without needing to pay the carrier cost again. If we compare a fully kitted vanquisher to a pair of lascannon HWSs, it's comparing, say, a plasma cannon hit and a vanquisher cannon hit to three lascannon hits. The HWS does a bit more damage, but the vanquisher will get to fire after turn 1.

A fully kitted vanquisher can be destroyed by one well placed shot, a lascannon in an IS squad cannot. On top of that, you're compairing a fully kitted vanquisher, over 200 points, to a heavy weapon squad, around 100 points.

For the same cost you basically have two choices, you can distribute the las cannons between 3 separate IS's, giving them ld 8 and 8 wounds of extra cannon fodder, or 2 separate heavy weapon squads, giving you 6 las cannon shots that can fire at two different targets.

Or you can have a tank that can die to the hands of a single shot from an anti-armor vehicle. Again, I'm hesitant to put over 200 points in a model that can only have one target a turn and can be killed with a single lucky shot.

Okay first thing your comparison is somewhat of a mess. "Comparing" HWT in IS as if they cost 20 pts rather than 70 pts per lascannon is just ridiculous. It is like me comparing a LR vanquisher with pask but as if it cost 155 pts rather than 205 pts.

If you think lascannon HWS are as good as a vanquisher leman russ then I would like to point out that HWS cannot survive any enemy attention at all even with good cover saves. They also fail orders 50% of the time on average.

A vanquisher should always have a lascannon hull weapon. It should also usually have sponson weapons.

IS with HWT are 70 pts a piece and are not a realistic way to deal with AV14. They are excellent for dealing with MC, AV13-, and are even good against paladins/wraiths. The vanquisher is the long range replacement for a melta team not for lascannons in your IS.

eclipseoto wrote:A fully kitted vanquisher can be destroyed by one well placed shot, a lascannon in an IS squad cannot. On top of that, you're compairing a fully kitted vanquisher, over 200 points, to a heavy weapon squad, around 100 points.

Firstly, yes, a vanquisher can be destroyed by a single shot, but that's pretty unlikely. Meanwhile, a single bout of scatter laser fire can ID a HWS off the table. That IS pretty likely. Furthermore, anything that's going to be actually good against a vanquisher (like 10 combi-melta sternguard) are going to be good against HWSs as well, while there is a lot that's good against HWSs that can't even scratch the paint on a vanquisher.

Secondly, I was comparing a 210 point vanquisher to two HWSs, which cost 210 points.

eclipseoto wrote:For the same cost you basically have two choices, you can distribute the las cannons between 3 separate IS's

so, let's compare. 210 points for the vanquisher, and 210 points for 3 PISs with lascannons.

In this case, you certainly get better durability than the HWSs, but you also get one fewer shot at range per turn. You also run into force concentration issues, as it's going to be easier for your opponent to get cover saves (or be out of LOS from one of them altogether), for example, and it's also easier to assault a more spread-out mass of infantry. Also, while a vanquisher can go down to dedicated anti-tank, 30 guardsmen are also vulnerable to dedicated anti-infantry. I've seen 30 guardsmen get shot off the table in a single turn on more than one occasion. And then, as mentioned, you have to deal with leadership issues, unlike a vanquisher, which is fearless.

PISs with lascannons aren't bad (I've run a fair number of them for that exact reason), but they're not straight better than a fully kitted vanquisher either.

Fun fact: a single lascannon hit has a 5.5% chance of killing a LR Vanquisher (on frontal armor) in one shot, but a ~20% chance of killing a model from a HWS and forcing them off the table with a failed leadership test (assuming deployment 6" from the table edge).

 Peregrine wrote:
Fun fact: a single lascannon hit has a 5.5% chance of killing a LR Vanquisher (on frontal armor) in one shot, but a ~20% chance of killing a model from a HWS and forcing them off the table with a failed leadership test (assuming deployment 6" from the table edge).

This actually made me laugh pretty hard. It was like one of those pop ups on windows or a movie, I just had this picture of you as the springy paper clip. Nice bit of math and a very relevant fact.

Alright this thread blew up in the past day lol but i do like the discussions and the tips.

I will swap the infantry squads to all be kitted out with a lascannon and melta gun. The pcs will be equiped with flamers for counter assault tactics. The chimera will be dropped for additional points towards the infantry.

The remaining points will be focused on what i can do for the russes. I like everyones points on the different variants and the arguement for the lascannon heavy weapon teams. In my meta usually the only weapons that ever kill my russes from a distance are lance. Even then its rare as i always try to give my russes a cover save. But in general my russes are usually killed by melta guns or assaults. Assaults are probably 90% of the time.

I will look over what i can swap and switch around and see what russes i can put in the list. I got 450pts in lrbt's in the list right now so with those dropped and the remaining points from the chimera after i fix up the infantry platoons i will see what russ combos i can throw in.

I've seen 30 guardsmen get shot off the table in a single turn on more than one occasion. And then, as mentioned, you have to deal with leadership issues, unlike a vanquisher, which is fearless.

PISs with lascannons aren't bad (I've run a fair number of them for that exact reason), but they're not straight better than a fully kitted vanquisher either.

durn cowardly guardsmen... this is a really good point.

 tankboy145 wrote:
What would you kit the punisher out with as well, Heavy bolters to increase weight of fire?

And with the sky shield I would probably run it in a mech list as the artillery wouldnt be able to be flanked easily. But in a gunline list the infantry would be better suited with the line as it covers more bodies.

How do you equip your infantry squads? would you say just lascannons or would you have a couple with lascannons sitting back with other squads with flamer or melta charging up?

My mechanized list im not worried about as its pretty straight forward.

The gunline is the hardest to work with at the moment.

Personally, I don't like to kit out infantry, because I don't see much use in it, due to the fact they die instantly if you dont stick em into Chimeras, which cost an extra 55 points. I mostly use heavy weapon teams. Costly, yes but if deployed in the right spot, they can do some damage. I mostly go with 2x missile launchers and 1x Hvy Bolter, just in case. As to kitting out the Punisher, I discovered excessive tank upgrades to be unnecessary point consumers, because if you have many tanks, kitted out with useless things, the total of points spent on upgrades could have been spent on another tank, so I never kit out tanks beyond what they need as standard. Heavy bolter sponsons for most battles, should take care of any pesky infantry, especially Tau, or occasionally flamers if you're playing against a horde army like Nids or Orks.

Definitely take HB on the punisher, as fire, fire and more fire is how that thing kills stuff. With all Leman variants, the sponsons should compliment the main gun.

Again, I like to keep PIS cheap, usually using GL or flamers, but I also think that going to the other end of the scale and bringing massed lascannons and meltas will spell death for any army that relies on vehicles. I still think a couple of Vanquishers do this better though.

subbed so I can keep track of this thread - very helpful for my IG plans

List is updated so all the infantry squads match and have lascannons and melta guns. The PCS's have flamers and will be used as counter assault units when the opponents charge.

The chimera was dropped. The LRBT's were dropped to the Vanq's with plasma again.

How does the list look now?

 tankboy145 wrote:
List is updated so all the infantry squads match and have lascannons and melta guns. The PCS's have flamers and will be used as counter assault units when the opponents charge.

The chimera was dropped. The LRBT's were dropped to the Vanq's with plasma again.

How does the list look now?

The list is looking really solid now, no real problems to speak of. One final thing to bear in mind is you don't declare combined squuads until deployment, so if you end up playing Kill Points or feel you need better force concentration and effieciency from orders, you can always blob. On the other hand, if you come up against an army with lots of smaller units, or with a lot of vehicles, then run them seperate to minimies damage and maximise target saturation, and to engage multiple targets. With two CCS and 2 PCS, there will be plenty of orders to go around.

My only concern is that you have a lot of anti-tank and not a lot of anti-MEQ. I think you have 18x Las Cannons (might have miscounted there), plus the vanquishers? It might be wise to make swap the vanquishers for more anti medium units, like marines, terminators, etc. than anti-vehicles. Also keep in mind that the plasma cannon sponsons are going to have to fire at whatever the main gun fires at, so even if you do decide to take the vanquisher, you might drop the sponsons so the points could be used for some plasma somewhere else that's not generally going to fire at armor.

eclipseoto wrote:
My only concern is that you have a lot of anti-tank and not a lot of anti-MEQ. I think you have 18x Las Cannons (might have miscounted there), plus the vanquishers? It might be wise to make swap the vanquishers for more anti medium units, like marines, terminators, etc. than anti-vehicles. Also keep in mind that the plasma cannon sponsons are going to have to fire at whatever the main gun fires at, so even if you do decide to take the vanquisher, you might drop the sponsons so the points could be used for some plasma somewhere else that's not generally going to fire at armor.

Speaking from experience, the vanquisher with plasma cannons is great against MEQ in the absence of armour, and for anti-MC, making the tank more versatile than you think. With the sheer number of LC, melta and AP2 on the tanks, most armour will be dead T3 at the latest, and then all those weapons can turn on the MEQ. Massed lasgun fire also brings down marines rather effectively.

 Paradigm wrote:

eclipseoto wrote:
My only concern is that you have a lot of anti-tank and not a lot of anti-MEQ. I think you have 18x Las Cannons (might have miscounted there), plus the vanquishers? It might be wise to make swap the vanquishers for more anti medium units, like marines, terminators, etc. than anti-vehicles. Also keep in mind that the plasma cannon sponsons are going to have to fire at whatever the main gun fires at, so even if you do decide to take the vanquisher, you might drop the sponsons so the points could be used for some plasma somewhere else that's not generally going to fire at armor.

Speaking from experience, the vanquisher with plasma cannons is great against MEQ in the absence of armour, and for anti-MC, making the tank more versatile than you think. With the sheer number of LC, melta and AP2 on the tanks, most armour will be dead T3 at the latest, and then all those weapons can turn on the MEQ. Massed lasgun fire also brings down marines rather effectively.

Gotcha, I guess I just prefer to keep the Russ as a marine killer first and anti-tank second whereas you prefer the opposite. It's good to know that you've found the vanquisher to be effective in the absence of armor as well though.

eclipseoto wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

eclipseoto wrote:
My only concern is that you have a lot of anti-tank and not a lot of anti-MEQ. I think you have 18x Las Cannons (might have miscounted there), plus the vanquishers? It might be wise to make swap the vanquishers for more anti medium units, like marines, terminators, etc. than anti-vehicles. Also keep in mind that the plasma cannon sponsons are going to have to fire at whatever the main gun fires at, so even if you do decide to take the vanquisher, you might drop the sponsons so the points could be used for some plasma somewhere else that's not generally going to fire at armor.

Speaking from experience, the vanquisher with plasma cannons is great against MEQ in the absence of armour, and for anti-MC, making the tank more versatile than you think. With the sheer number of LC, melta and AP2 on the tanks, most armour will be dead T3 at the latest, and then all those weapons can turn on the MEQ. Massed lasgun fire also brings down marines rather effectively.

Gotcha, I guess I just prefer to keep the Russ as a marine killer first and anti-tank second whereas you prefer the opposite. It's good to know that you've found the vanquisher to be effective in the absence of armor as well though.

Yeah, the vanquisher has actually become my go-to tank recently, rather than my old favourtite the exterminator. I suppose a large part of the reason I don't use LRBT for anti-marine is that I tend to pack a lot of plasma vets and stormtroopers as well. LRBT are certainly good against MEQ, so I can see where you're coming from.

Yea with the vanqs having the plasma sponsons they effectively can put out ap 2 with all its weapons allowing it to hurt meq/tech. The vanq cannon an lascannon are to hopefully pop vehicles at a distance.

Also each infantry squad has a lascannon and a melta gun ontop of the mass of lasguns.

The veteran squads will drop out and pump out 3 flame templates, rapid firing lasguns and a demo charge. I believe that enough wounds to scare meq/teq evenly.

Only down fall i see with this list is that theres no large blasts aside from the demo chargea and the MoO. Otherwise the list has enough long range anti tank fire power. Theres backed up melta fire for closer up and with all that i can really put down meq and teq. I have flamer pcs for counter attacking enemy assaults. I have vendettas and a quad for anti air. And more anti armor. I have 2 ccs and 2 pcs so i will have plenty of orders to go around to really buff my shooting or get my guys bak in the fight.

Geq seems like it would be hard against this list as i dont have many large blasts but with plenty of lasguns, and flamers i think i will be good.

Tau might be a little hard to beat but as i got majority of my army with long range heavy weapons im confident i could out gun them.

As for the dark eldar im not entirely confident i will be able to beat them but with how many weapons i have i would be upset if i didnt give them a run for their money.

I wouldn't rely on outgunning the Tau, just try and kill the markerlights ASAP and get as close as you can to maximise the Lasgun firepower.

As for DE, you should easily pop any transports T2 at the latest, and can gun them down with tonnes of lasguns and flamers as they slowly footslog towards you

For GEQ, you have enough lasguns and flamers to kill the hordes, and enough AT to take out the tanks. It would be one hell of a shootout, however it goes.

I will say I'm pretty happy with this list and once i get to try it out i will post again how the battle goes.

Any other suggestions?

To be honest I think those Vanquishers are pretty overkill. You definitely have more than plenty anti tank without them. I'd probably take Executioners instead, although any variant that focuses more on anti infantry wouldn't be bad either.

 Paradigm wrote:
I wouldn't rely on outgunning the Tau, just try and kill the markerlights ASAP and get as close as you can to maximise the Lasgun firepower.

But for the love of god, watch out for their firewarriors. They rapid fire, outrange, wound on 2's and don't give you an armor save. Just be wary of the lowly firewarrior. They're more powerful than you'd think.

eclipseoto wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I wouldn't rely on outgunning the Tau, just try and kill the markerlights ASAP and get as close as you can to maximise the Lasgun firepower.

But for the love of god, watch out for their firewarriors. They rapid fire, outrange, wound on 2's and don't give you an armor save. Just be wary of the lowly firewarrior. They're more powerful than you'd think.

I agree with this, they should be only slightly below the markers in terms of target priority, take them out fast. They may be good shots, but they die easily enough, even to lasguns if you can get in range.

I will surely keep that in mind!

At my local shop theres a lot of 2v2 games so as long as i can provide some decent amount of fire support we would do alright.

Fighting tau 1 on 1 im pretty confident i could drop their units fast. And my flamer/demo vets will really put a hurt on them.

Now heres a tactics question then for against tau. Would it be wise to put the line further up the board so that my infantry can advance and at least possibly be in range oh the tau? Because if i sit back i dont have many large blasts to really scare the tau.

I would certainly say yes, agressive deployment is vital. Every turn they can hit you but you can't hit them is a turn closer to losing, so you might as well charge forward anyway, and at least try and level the playing field. Play defensive and they will just cut you down without you being able to retaliate.

If you play a lot of 2v2, try and partner with someone who has a more assaulty army, preferably marines of some kind, as the two opposite styles actually mix really well and will force the opponent to divide their firepower, which can help both armies. Also, make sure everyone on the team has a specific role, as in team games, good communication is as important as good tactics. I've seen many games lost as two or more team members didn't comunicate effectively.

In 2v2 I've had good success against tau with two different options: Deep strikers, as they generally can distract the tau a bit on the turn they arrive long enough for you to get into really good rapid fire range. The other option has been with heavy hard to kill assault units. The tau will concentrate their fire on them (because they kind of have to, or else be assaulted), leaving your guardsmen to sneak up and again rapid fire the squishy tau.

Paradigm is right though, aggression is key, as they'll outrange most of your weapons.

So i should probably deploy my army at the edge of my deployment and maybe have my line placed 6-8"infront of my deployed troops a little closer to the middle of the board so basically i have a standard move up and i should be in range if the tau dont deploy against their table edge.

Now being aggressively deployed is that usually essential for all games, like should i do that against de or no because they are more assault based.

Normally against assault armies i tend to turtle up in my deployment zone and especially against deepstriking armies i will turtle up as well.

 tankboy145 wrote:
So i should probably deploy my army at the edge of my deployment and maybe have my line placed 6-8"infront of my deployed troops a little closer to the middle of the board so basically i have a standard move up and i should be in range if the tau dont deploy against their table edge.

Now being aggressively deployed is that usually essential for all games, like should i do that against de or no because they are more assault based.

Normally against assault armies i tend to turtle up in my deployment zone and especially against deepstriking armies i will turtle up as well.

Yep, deployment on the edge and the line a movement phase away is good vvs tau. If you can deploy second, do so, and put the line where you can hit the tau. Even if you need an extra turn to reach it, that's better than having to leave your cover to actually be in range.

Against a more assaulty army, I like to still deploy close, to maxmimise damage from T1, but fall back instead of advancing each turn, so you get more rounds of shooting in.

Against an army with a lot of DS troops, spread out to maximum coherency to deny them a safe drop zone, and make sure you have at least 6" of guardsmen between clear ground and your tanks/artillery to protect them from DS melta. Guard can actually cover a large part of the deployment area if properly spread, and speaking as a BA player, it can be incredibly frustrating to have to waste DS further back due to the enemy being spread everywhere. No one does this better than guard.

I will have to keep this in mind when deploying. Deployment is usually what hurts me in most games as a guard player because my opponent finds the weaker points and manages to break through or as i mentioned deepstriking he usually gets to close up fast and takes my tanks out.

Keep in mind that fortifications should be placed before terrain not during deployment.

I actually find that I prefer to fight Tau from 42"+ with my guard. They have very few weapons with range greater than this and if I am playing gunline guard I have a lot of weapons with 48"+ range. Try not to get into a rapid fire range fight with Tau as they are better than you at it, can ignore cover, and get an armour save where you do not. A decent Tau list will out fire an IG list in the ranges from 12-36" (not including movement).

Yeah, deployment is key, and where the battle is one or lost. I find a good way of helping with this is to try and have a plan for each unit. This is easier when deploying second, meaning you will often hand over the first turn, but on the whole it is more useful. Deploy your AT where it can best counter enemy vehicles, and your infantry where they can claim objectives and still be useful.

Also, it is sometimes better to keep a couple of hard-hitting units in reserve, and then bring them on the counter enemy DS units. This keeps them safe from the initial assault, and able to more easily hit where they are needed. A couple of plasma-vet squads in Chimeras are good units for this, as they can counter Battlesuits, terminators and Drop-podding MEQ quite effectively, and naturally become a target. Keep them back, let the opponent drop their units, the roll up and hit them.

With spaced deployment, you can also force the enemy to land where you want them, by leaving a safe-clear drop zone and blocking everywhere else. This forces the enemy to either play it safe and drop further back, or be agressive and surrounded.

The vet squads in the vendettas and pcs are the counter attack units against deep striking units although i prefer the vets to go and get objectives but if my side is getting hammered then i will have to drop the vets where they are needed.

Now in a list like mine i dont really see any units that would be good to keep in reserves. And if you were to throw me h vets in the list i have above what would you drop to put them in?

And if i were to go second i feel like it would give my opponent an advantage as if any of his units that can see over the wall would get good shots off on my guardsmen since they will be a movement phase back. The riptide is the scary unit im thinking of as its tall and has a large blast de ships are close to the ground so they shouldn't see over the wall.

I agree the PCS and fulfil that role, so that should cover you against DS units. Also, remember any enemy that
DSes will, unless they run, be clustered in base-to-base contact, and might present a great target of oppurtunity for the PC on the vanquishers.

To be honest, in that specific list there is nothing I would say you need in reserve, I was talking more generally. With the PCS, PC vanquishers and masses of lasguns, you should be covered against DSers.

I see your point about going second, but it really gives you more chance of deploying out of LOS/in cover, and get better targets for the long-range weapons. You will also be able to counter enemy fliers by going second, and 2 vendettas should down most fliers on the turn they arrive. The riptide may be a threat, but he can only shoot one unit (unless it can take the split-fire thingy) so you might just have to take the casualties. The chances are the wall won't help against tau due to markers stripping cover anyway. A few dead guardsmen turn 1 is a fair trade for better deployment options, counter-striking fliers, and having the final turn to take objectives without enemy reaction in my opinion.

I see your point a fully agree about having the last turn. I played an apoc game and a standard game over past 2 days and both games my team went second and literly having that last turn to grab objectives is just huge. And it also is pretty important to see how your opponent sets up so you can counter deploy and set up good firing lanes.

Also if my forces are going to move up a bit more to get better field advantage how will i cove the rear of my tanks. Or will i just keep squads basically wrapping around them to deny deep strikers?

I would either keep your tanks on the backline, as they have the range to sit back and shoot, and the ADL shouldn't be the only cover on the board, so you can probably get them at least a 5+ cover.

You can just wrap them to deter DSers, but ultimately it comes to a choice: waste an infantry squad that could be advancing, or risk losing the tank to a DS unit. However, the latter is actually not that common, with the only risks I can see are Crisis suits, melta Drop pods/ASM and terminators, as everything else will rely on CC to pop the tank, giving you a turn to counter them with PCS/vets. As with everything, it really depends on what and who you're up against.

Alright i gotcha. Yea against the de i dont have to worry about my flank to much as all his stuff will be from the front.
Against the tau the farsight bomb is all i have to worry about, but the good news is that the flamer demo vet squad killed of all the crisis suits and drones in 1 shooting phase leaving farsight by himself so its not to hard to counter.

I dont play against marines much as they are usually on my team or they are rarely around for a game. Only pods ive dealt with for melta is a dread with a MM which would be a hard counter as thats 12" melta bonus. Not much i can do there except hope he scatters away. Other than that just blast it with ally anti tank weapons afterwards.

Other armies ive run into is another guard player who runs a mech guard list with 3 vendettas and the usual plasma and melta vets. His heavy support though is 2 punishers usually and a manticore. Hes also run storm troopers with melta guns. Simple tactics i would use would be putting the line more forward and advancing to get the cover of it. I would bubble wrap the tanks to counter the melta units but remain spaced out enough to live against the manticore. From that point it would just be a big shoot out fest hoping i can manage to pop his vehicles further away.

Yes, the Dread in the pod is a hard counter, but if it misses or fails to kill a LR (and it can easily scatter out of melta range), then it's dead against the vanquishers next turn. If not, you're only lost one tank, which in the long run is not the end of the world.

The plan against the mech guard seems solid, I would seriously recommend going second here, as you need to counter-strike the vendettas. The melta stormies are harder to deal with, but bubble-wrap can work. Pop the transports early on with the vanquishers. Hit what comes out with everything else. Manticores are hard to deal with, but if you don't blob and spread your squads, you should be able to minimise damage.

as to hwts or guard blobs/gun lines failing ld checks/legging it off the table .

I have found that a rather nice combo is creed,combined with a regimental standard,,,then through chenkov into a pcs squad for a 50pt lord commisar,giving you stubborn,units with the ability to reroll

If i were to play a fluffy game i would use creed and kell but honestly creed is so expensive i would rather have 2 separate command squads that are the same. And using a lord commissar wouldnt be bad but for the points i would stick with kell because if an officer issues an order and kell is in the ccs then the squad receiving the order uses the officer ld which is either 9 for ccs or 10 which is. Most likely as i always use creed and kell together.

The Lord would be nice as he grants a 10 ld and with kell thats rerollable so its a great strategy but i believe it gets pricey and it forces all my squads to bunch up as the commissars aurora is only a 6" range. And manticores would have a field day with my army at that point.

Also in regards to ld and stubborn i would prefer my inf squads to fail ld tests when in assault because thats when the pcs with flamers get to do their counter assault jobs. They will spring forward to the opponent and put mass wounds from the flamers on them.

Would it at all be a good idea to try and get a commissar or a lord commy in this list so that if its a kill points mission i can blob up and not have fears of a blob squad running off the table?

A Lord Commissar is never a bad idea, as they make one squad (or two if you position well so he hits the edge of two blobs) pretty much certain to pass order tests, and if you need a tarpit unit then stubborn helps with that. With a power weapons and pistol of choice he also puts out 5 attacks at WS5 on the charge, making him a nasty surprise for unprepared enemies.

And yes, you preferably want squads to flee for the flamers to counter-attack, and there is a balance to be found between regularly passing orders and not getting bogged down in CC. Really, it's up to you, but I certainly think the LC is a good choice, especially if you are running blobs. You could also save a few points by buying one per platoon, but I would argue the WS/BS and Ld boots are worth the extra 10 points.

With this list i wasnt intending on running blobs but when i remembered the kill point mission i realized i would give up a lot of kill points with all the individual squads. I think i might drop one infantry squad to throw in a lord commissar with a power weapon into the list.

Have him either sit far enough back so the first couple of squads dont get his bonus an can fall back when assaulted or stick him with some vets in the vendetta to help protect him as hes my warlord then.

Yeah, he can be as risk as the warlord, but with a 2+ LOS, he should be ok against most things, especially with Sgts to take challenges for him. I like the idea of keeping him in the second wave as it were, Only problem I can see with him in the vendetta is that if it is shot down, he's almost certainly dead.

I will have to look over the list but i might drop the second ccs in favor of the commissar. Then with the extra points throw some extra upgrades around but then again dropping the standard infantry squad might be a better choice so i can maintain orders and have moral boosts and a better heavy weapons team firing

Alright so never made up a decision on the commissar still need to test the army more.

But today was first day trying it out. Played against eldar and there werent any wraithlords or knights. The battle wasnt me struggling the whole time as i seized first turn and his fire prisim was an easy kill as it was in the open.

The only really hard part was there was an autarch with a rerollable 2+cover and basically i had half my infantry squads up and 1 certain squad died but other than that the autarch was the only unit he had left before he gave up as i had 4 objectives.

Well done on the win. As far as the Autarch with cover tricks, this is where a Hellhound or even massed flamers would be good. Or, as you did, just ignore him, as 1 non-scoring model won't change the game with no troops behind him.

Yes the autarch having that rerollable save made it seem like I couldnt kill him. So I figured I would ignore him and kill all his scoring units. Once he got close enough I had the flamers spring forward and take him but my rolls were terrible and I didnt wound at all, I needed 4's and I rolled 1's,2's, and 3's like a boss lol. So basically my last 2 turns were my army unloading into an autarch as thats all he had left. But like I said he realised the little amount of damage he was doing was nothing as I had 4 objectives so he just gave in at that point.

I would say Im easily happy with this list and will probably keep it as is. If no other tips on advice then I will say I appreciate all the help as Ive finally started to understand some tactics and been able to build a better list. If I come across further questions I will just post them here and bring the page back.

Hopefully the different tips and strategies in this forum will also further help other IG players.

If your using flamer/demo vets in your vendetta try giving them shotguns. You dont need the lasgun range and the shotguns are assault weapons. If they survive the enemies turn, then you can still fire everything and assault

Thats not a bad idea, although i would just rather have my guard not get unto assault lol. Usually once the flamers, demo charge and lasguns go off the enemy unit is pretty much dead so after another turn of shooting and the enemy unit should be dead.

Yeah, I'd stick with the lasguns, you don't want vets in combat (except with tau, where they might just win)

Yea tau is about the only exception to try that, but otherwise I would rather make sure I have the increased range, especially if my dudes scatter from the deepstrike, which usually happens.

Tested the same army out again. This time it was in a game against eldar with tau allies. I was tabled by turn 4. He didnt use an autarch but he had some unit like it that had rerollable saves and he basically cast that on his wraight knight or riptide. His allied detachment was a riptide with a asic fire warrior squad and a fireblade I believe as HQ he used the blade and warriors to sit back and hold an objective and I believe he had like a Guardian squad or something sit back as well.

He had a serpent with some flamer wraith guard that basically zipped up to my line and just ate squads alive, I did manage to kill them all. There was a squad of 2 walkers that moved out of cover fired at me and moved back into it. He had a wraight lord but it didnt do much as the whole list was rather fast and it just took pot shots. He said to make the list better he would swap the lord for more walkers.

The rest of his list was just 2 more bike squads and that was about it. The hq dude on a bike with rerolling saves was casting the rerolling saves either on his wraith knight or riptide, so basically I had to focus on the one that didnt have the rerolling saves as it was almost impossible to hurt the big guy that had it for the turn.

There was night fighting turn 1 so all his guys were getting great cover saves which basically allowed him to walk right up on me.

I deployment was hammer and anvil and I deployed my line right up to the 24" deployment line and I honestly believe that if I would have kept further back I would have had a better chance as I would have had an extra turn before he was in my face. It was emperors will so we each had one objective.

Any thoughts? I know eldar is a top tier list as well as tau and them as allies is just asking for a loss but I would like to give them a run for their money and do the best I can. I dont believe mech guard would have fared any better as there were a ton of lance weapons.

I've been away for a bit, and I'm trying to track the changes to your list, can you post what you were using?

That sounds like a tough opponent though! Not sure about that reroll rule, but I imagine he can't reroll saves if he doesn't get them in the first place! Choosing your targets is key.

I find that the big targets can very frequently be overrated for your concentrated fire. A lot of the time they can only kill one unit that they have line of sight to, and can really only do one thing well. Taking out troops/anything running up to you is key with IG. Likely one of the biggest mistakes was misplacing your fire on those two large units rather than the bikes that were giving them the rerollable save and the wraith knights coming up in your grill.

Night-fighting can also be a huge hindrance, especially on the Tau who get night vision for something like 1 pt a model. Generally though, I take night fighting as an opportunity to basically redeploy/get into good cover for sunrise.

Just a few thoughts!

CCS 115pts
Lascannon
Standard
MoO

CCS 85pts
lascannon
Standard

PCS 50pts
x4 flamers

x4 infantry squads(not blobbed) 320pts
x4 meltas
x4 lascannons


PCS 50pts
x4 flamers

x4Infantry squads 320pts (not blobbed)
x4 lascannons
x4 melta guns

x2 veteran squads 230pts(each squad goes in a vendetta
x6 flamers(3each)
demolitions on both squads

Vendetta 260pts (not in a squad)
Vendetta

Vanquisher 260pts
lascannon
plasma sponsons
pask

Vanquisher 210pts
lascannon
plasma sponsons

Aegis Line/Quad 100pts

List updated 2k exactly

This is the list that has been settled with.

But basically he had an hq on a bike that has a rerollable save and he had a psychic power that allows him to give another model or unit(i dont know) a rerollable save. So basically as he advanced he had great cover saves because of the 2 bike squads and everything stayed close to cover.

If he put the reroll save on the riptide he would also use its ability to give it a 3+ invuln which meant you couldnt kill it unless you had weight of fire. The knkight was just hard to hit and a rerolling 5++ still made it hard as even s8 needed 4s. But I had killed all his bikes turn3 so he didnt have any scoring units. The only problem was the riptides large blast and the weight of fire that all of his squads could put out.

Because I deployed close up and with night fighting he was in to assault turn 2 so I suppose I should have deployed back to get an extra turn of shooting. He focused on my command squads early so I couldnt exactly rely on orders.

Would it be possibly to drop 1 of the platoons and a CCS and add more vets in chimeras to get better shooting and more focused higher strength weapons.

That sounds like it was a pretty rough matchup Eldar+tau is very hard to beat with most lists. Unless it has been changed, though, the Fortune power (re-roll saves) only works on eldar (not had a good look at the new 'dex, but it was FAQed that way for the last one), so just query that next time you play the guy. I may be wrong, but if not, then that could change things a bit, making the Riptide a bit less tough.

From what I can see, you suffered from being outmanoeuvred, which is something the guard struggle with in most lists. With the bikes, Wraithguard and walkers, I can see how this was the case. I agree on moving your deployment back in this case, as it means he either has to advance with the FW and guardians, taking them off objectives, or surrender them to doing nothing and then being hit late-game by your flamer vets.

Dropping a platoon and CCS for a couple more vet squads will allow you to react faster to any closing threat before they can put too much distance between you and them, but will mean you have a far lower model count and possibly lose durability overall depending on what kind of AT the enemy brings. If they bring lots, then you're stuck playing foot-guard by the end of T2 as all the transports get popped, if they don't then you have fast scoring units that are largely untouchable, but you won't know that until you go into the game.

As was said above, avoid fire on the big toys if there is a more pressing threat, take out scoring troops (and with eldar go for the psykers, as they lose effectiveness without the buffs), and accept the fact the Tide and Knight are killing a few infantry a turn. The vanquishers and Vendettas should also make short work of them if there are no better targets. Also with night-fighting, bear in mind your Russes have searchlights, so you could light up the approaching bikes and drop their cover save a bit. Admittedly you lose the same bonus for the russes, but it could certainly help if you can bring enough fire to bear.

Hope that helps.

I will definitely ask about that psychic power, or even post it in the rules forum to hopefully get a confirmation.

The mech units was a bad idea, i really dont know why i suggested that as after I thought about it that just meant that if those chimeras blow up they will kill more of my men and do more damage, they would have a 4+ from the line but otherwise I would maybe be able to squeeze 3 in, But im just going to work with the list I have and get used to it as if I keep changing it up I wont get the play style down.

The vanqs and the vendettas fired on the knight but as its t8 it was a challenge just to wound it and once it was wounded it invuln was annoying to get through even when it was rerollable it was more difficult.

I will have to say that I did forget about the search lights, yes it would have benefited my opponent but in the end reducing the cover woud have been good because turn 1 night fighting he got a 2+ save on all his units whether it was armor or cover though it was mainly cover. But it could have been reduced and I could have used weight of fire and I should have focused on other units.

It was certainly a hard match up and I honestly think against any armies that are very fast or bike heavy I will have to turtle up because being aggressive and holding the field is key but after that game I truly saw how slow guard is and they are just to slow to react and the units were to close with good saves and after turn 2-3 I was basically surrounded and as its a slow army I could barely properly get good things going.

Yeah, don't change the list too much, as you need to get used to it. The mech would either go badly as you say, or make you incredibly durable, but it's too much of a gamble on what your opponent brings.

As I said, the vanqs should only be hitting the big MCs if there isn't a more pressing threat, as in terms of damage per shot they are generally more effective against other things.

Using searchlights and hitting the bikes with all you have seems like a good idea if you go up against this or a similar list again, as if you can take the wind out of the initial punch it can force the enemy to change strategy rather drastically. Also, consider an Eradicator if you end up facing this a lot, the PC/LC Vanq is good for TAC, but sometimes something meta-specific can give you an edge.

The key is just to learn from the loss, you can't expect to win every game, and losses like this can actually be useful for pointing out holes in your list or strategy, in this case it seems to be cover and target priority, so in future you will do better at these.

Guard are generally slow as an army, that is the trade off for the massive firepower, but there are some things that can counter these issues, depending on what you have access too. If you have any marine allies, a couple of Pod squads dropping the enemy backline allows you keep the guard focsed on holding a position, or if you'd rather keep it within the codex, stormies can achieve the same thing. The other option is a hellhound or two, their fast, high-S ignore cover tempates could just be the answer to the eldar bikers. If you go for these, I'd drop either a CCS or a vet squad to make points.

I will have to keep all the tips in mind, Im surprised I really forgot about search lights so Im fairly confident that will help me kill the eldar more easily in early night fighting games.

The I will also have my vanqs focus the big ugly units as they are the ones that can put out a lot of high strength ap2 shots to really do the hurt on them.

In my meta theres an eldar player and a dark eldar player that are pretty much the most competitive right now. They dont really play each other so its common to play one of them, with the de player he also likes playing thousand suns chaos so im sure this guard army would make quick work of that list. Other armies consist of tau, IG mech/foot, GK and BA and farsight enclave.

I will think about the hell hounds it sounds rather interesting and so does the storm troopers, originally the vet squads were more for that roll but as the vendetta has to get to the other side of the board they risk getting shot down or killed when they do come down.

Can I ask you guys views on the following things for IG in a tournament setting (1650 points):

Master of the Fleet and Astropath. Over the course of 5 games (using flyers and reserves and with the enemy doing so too) are they worth the points?
Commissars in general leading squads - worth the points?
Camo netting on Chims - as above. Cost vs effectivness
Primaris Psyker - as above in addition to overall effectiveness/army buffs.
Outflanking scout sentinels with either MLs or ACs? Useful or worth it?

Im going to be running roughly the following at 1650

CCS with MoF, Astro and Primaris in Chim

PCS with 2 platoons X2 (50 man in total) with 2 commissars

Vets with melta in Chims X 2

2x Vendettas

Scout sentinels x3 with ACs.

Griffon

ADL with quad manned by 3 Ratlings.

Im looking for advice on how to kit out the platoons and command squads really bearing in mind at 1650 you cant overload on LCs or other relatively expensive weaponry due to points.

Thanks!

I'd keep the Astropath, but not the Master of the Fleet, if anything you want your enemy to bring on reserves (particularly fliers) first so you can counter with the Vendettas without them hitting you.

Commissars are debatable, it depends on what you want them to do. If you intend to blob, then yes, if not then no. Similarly, the more they are going to be a target (depends on weapons they have), the more Commissars are fine.

I'd drop the netting on chimeras, the 20 points you save on each can be used to put weapons on the PIS (I'd suggests AC/flamer if you don't want to go LC/melta)

Primaris is good, use him to buff the blobs with biomancy.

The scouts sents can be good for a shot at side armour. People will tell you vendettas are just better, but you've already got 2 so this is a non-issue. Take AC as the volume of fire gives you more chances to glance/pen, and side armour is rarely more than 12 on the kind of targets you are fighting with them.

Thanks Para, enjoyed reading your advice of late.
As a list overall, how do you think it looks?
Its my first tourney so not expecting huge results but dont want to be crushed either!

This list looks good enough, in that it seems to cover all the bases of AT, AA and anti-horde, with enough boots to hold objectives. I don't really do tourneys so I'm not overly familiar with the current netlists, but I can't see anything that would be a fatal counter to this list.

If you like the advice, most of it is taken from the article in my sig, The Complete Guide to Guard, where I've gone through every unit in the codex and how to use them, as well as some key strategies and styles of list. It's quite (well, very) long, but you might find it helpful.

Good luck with the tourney.

Thanks Para, I will definitely have a looksee at the article.

You remind me of this moderate cross between Ailaros and Peregrine.

No offense intended whatsoever to those guys but you're like the middle man in the IG tactic mix

My only concern list wise is: no real HtH ability, barring blobbing with a 50 man - which can only engage so much and long range anti AV14/heavy counters (triple LRs/Monos, trip Rips, trip WKs etc).
I cant see 2x Vet chims getitng close enough, fast enough and 2x Vends arent optimal VS them.

One other point: point taken about not having the MoF VS other fliers but what about drop pods/outflankers? Denying them that one extra turn of arrival might mean focusing down their main force better/quicker?
Is MoF still not worth it in your opinion?

Thanks for the compliment, I just try to help.

As for the MOF, against Drop pods he will only delay half of them, so he's not so effective there (although as a marine player, I can attest to ho annoying it is to have pods arrive late), and against outflankers he can be useful, if you see/expect to see a lot of those, then take him, but on the whole, I reckon you should only be taking him after if you have points left after sorting the bread and butter of the army. For example, if I had the choice between an GL/AC Platoon and a MOF, or a LC.MG platoon but no MOF, then I'd go with the latter.

HTH is something you kind of have to accept with IG unless you're bringing power blobs, ogryn or RR, but by keeping the squads seperate then you can mitigate this a little, as the charging unit kills10 guys and is then left in the open against the rest of the army. A nice trick here is to load your PCS with flamers and put the behind the line, and burn whatever gets through. I've used this against most things rather effectively, as it gives you enough wounds to hurt GEQ massively, but also force enough saves on MEQ/TEQ to severely cripple the squad.

Against heavy targets, you are lacking some punch, but if you drop the sents and griffon, and can fine 15 points elsewhere (I'd drop the commissars, as blobs are the only use for them and you ideally want separate squads in 5/6 missions), you can fit in a LC/PC vanquisher, which gives you long range AT for LR and the like, and enough AP2 to put wounds on the big nasties. Again, this is also something IS with LC can contribute to, so I'd make that almost a priority upgrade. The chances are if they are bringing AV14 they aren't bringing MCs, and vice versa, so having stuff that can handle both is useful. With a LC in each IS, a LC/PC vanquisher and the 2 'dettas if you need them you should be able to manage. At 1650, I doubt you'll see more than 2 AV14/MC types (except against nids, but that's to be expected)

Excellent Para.

As for the MOF, against Drop pods he will only delay half of them, so he's not so effective there (although as a marine player, I can attest to ho annoying it is to have pods arrive late), and against outflankers he can be useful, if you see/expect to see a lot of those,

I just dont know mate, thats why over the 5 games he might be worth it. I think I'll stick with it but VS fliers you're right hes....!
Is it mandatory to have the -1 or can you choose? Dont have Codex to hand.

HTH is something you kind of have to accept with IG unless you're bringing power blobs, ogryn or RR, but by keeping the squads seperate then you can mitigate this a little, as the charging unit kills10 guys and is then left in the open against the rest of the army. A nice trick here is to load your PCS with flamers and put the behind the line, and burn whatever gets through. I've used this against most things rather effectively, as it gives you enough wounds to hurt GEQ massively, but also force enough saves on MEQ/TEQ to severely cripple the squad.

Nice idea, will practice that.

Against heavy targets, you are lacking some punch, but if you drop the sents and griffon, and can fine 15 points elsewhere (I'd drop the commissars, as blobs are the only use for them and you ideally want separate squads in 5/6 missions), you can fit in a LC/PC vanquisher,

My only (albeit somewhat biased view here) is that the Giff has rarely if ever failed me (Ive seen it kill 5 MEQs in cover and do all sorts over the course of 6 turns - reroll scatter with str6 ap4 large blast is brill imho). I intend it to be behind BLoS or the ADL for a good save/unkillable unit and pound away over 6 turns over 5 games.
Dropping the sentinels and it for the Vanq I dont feel would be worth it?

In addition VS an alpha strike list/long range heavy anti AV army; it'll be nuked fast, where as the Griff and sentinels hopefully wont ever get hit (much).

Great food for thought though, thanks a lot.

You can't choose for the MOF, it's just a permanent -1. If you have any games before the tournament, then try him out and see how he fits in with the list.

If you don't go for the Vanquisher (and I can see why, griffons/ scout sents are good, especially with xenos everywhere), then your best bet really is just to shove LC on anything that can have them (apart from PCS and possibly the vets), and hammer the big targets as early as possible. That, or melta-stormies, but I can't really see how they'd fit with the rest of the list except as a purely suicidal unit. Also, bear in mind that it is easy to get distracted by the big targets even when they can't hurt you, so it it's a choice between, for example, shooting one LC at a LR on the other side of the board, or everything at a squad of bikes about to hit your lines, hit the most pressing threat first.

Very interesting list, ive been playing in a campaign and 2 things i tried were sentinels an blobs. Seeing as my opponent ran a competitive nids list i got tabled.

But! The sentinels can be good. I outflanked mine and they were equiped with lascannons so i came behind the nida lists and insta killed some biovores. But i would go with autocannons or lascannons as both can damage most units or vehicles. Just remember sentinels die easily so dont expect them to live long.

Quick not i dont believe the primaris can take biomancy. I would check the FAQ but last i remember hes not able to.

As for commissar lords are great as a cheap hq to give good ld. And using regular commissar are good for blobs as well i just like lords as they can survive a little better and lately ive been running mine with carapace/plasma pistol/and a power fist. Hes beaten in some monstrous creatures and smaller units.

As for blobs it depends on how you want to run them. Its the same for using separate infantry squads. So you want to sit and shoot or eventually move up. If you sit and shoot autocannons and lascannons are great. Then use melta guns or plasma guns to add more strength to your squad.
If you plan on advancing squads with heavy weapons make sure you bound them(move one and shoot with other then following turn do same but shoot with the one that move and move the one that shot previously). This is so you aren't snap firing all of them at once.

But if you are just advancing the whole time a flamer melta or plasma gun are great for the job. If you plan on tar pitting your opponent use melta bombs and power axes on the sergeants then add flamers or melta guns. Thats a deadly blob to assault.

One thing i have noticed is if your meta has fliers you need fliers. A quad gun or Icarus lascannon wont cut it. Also if you plan on playing a lot of foot guard a defence line will be a must. Otherwise most new codex are very shooty and if you just blow on a guard squad they will die.

As for you vet squads in chimeras. If you are running 2-3 they will mainly be used as defensive units. Use them to hold back and spring forward when needed and or if the enemy is coing hard on one side have the chimeras go out and flank them an put the pressure on. Otherwise 2-3 chimeras going up the board alone will get chewed up and spat out badly.

Hope this helps!

Just checked, Primaris can take bio, it's Div he can't. 2 rolls from any list but divination.

Apart from that, everything there is solid advice. Although I'd suggest meltabombs OR power axes on the sgt, both together I feel is too much for a T3 1W model.

Thanks guys very interesting ideas.

As for blobs it depends on how you want to run them. Its the same for using separate infantry squads. So you want to sit and shoot or eventually move up. If you sit and shoot autocannons and lascannons are great. Then use melta guns or plasma guns to add more strength to your squad.
If you plan on advancing squads with heavy weapons make sure you bound them(move one and shoot with other then following turn do same but shoot with the one that move and move the one that shot previously). This is so you aren't snap firing all of them at once.

But if you are just advancing the whole time a flamer melta or plasma gun are great for the job. If you plan on tar pitting your opponent use melta bombs and power axes on the sergeants then add flamers or melta guns. Thats a deadly blob to assault.

This is the conundrum TB145? :(

In this tourney at 1650 VS (some fairly strange mission setups being honest: post #2: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/543714.page ).

I just dont know if to blob or not? It will literally come down to each mission and whether a big blob holding 1 obj is worth is VS another mission where I need to split the platoons into 4x10 and have the vets quick/late capture?! (6 squads capturing?)

I feel I've picked a good all comers list but VS certain builds I'll get hammered and in certain missions too. I've seen some of the Irish lads builds that I'll face and they are pretty hardcore (Cronair, Jetseer/WK death, SMx8 drop pod with tanks. Greentide w/Chaos etc).

Ah well: As the Imperial guard always say:
"Into the breach once more, dear friend".....

I think overall I'm going to go defensive/"gunline" though since Im comfortable with it. Any ideas for PCS/platoon loadout then?

Thanks again guys.

Well just remember guard isnt very effective in close combat so if one enemy units assaults the blob then the whole blob gets tied in and the enemy can move more units up to help assault. In this edition i would run individual squads that way if the enemy assaults and wipes one 10 man squad you have 3 more that can be ordered frfsrf or bring it down to really put the hurt on your opponent.

For pcs you either want them with a heavy weapon to sit bak with the gunline and give out orders or you want them to be equiped with x4 flamers. Either go in a vendetta and acts as a late game objective grabber or as a counter charge unit. Once the enemy assaults they kill a 10 man squad and then are left there to be destroyed by rapid fire and flamers.

What powers are good for the primaris psyker, ive never used or really tried psychic powers.

And the only reason i say axes and melta bombs is because the axes are a nice general weapon to put out ap2 at s4 but if you get some kinda monstrous creature or walker like the defiler to assault its just going to tie you up and chase you down. But if you take melta bombs only then they are useless against anything that isnt a monstrous creative or walker as they can only be used on those targets. Yes its kind of pricey for one model but i find it important in my meta as i still run into assault heavy lists where theres plenty of walkers and monstrous creatures.

I'll second the idea of keeping them separate, you lose effectiveness with orders but gain more versatility and are able to hit more targets and deploy in waves to slow any assault units. Only blob if you are unlikely to face assault or want to assault yourself.

For the primaris, I usually take at least one roll on biomancy, hoping for Enfeble or Endurance to increase the effectiveness of blobs and infantry in general. If you don't get those you could swap for the primaris for some free AP2 shots. Psychic shriek could be good.. Most things on Telepathy are kind of useful (and the ability to re-roll 2 of them as they are Warp Charge 2 means you have more chance of one of the others.). Telekinesis has some nice tricks, with the best being Objuration Mechanicum and Telkine Dome.

I see your point on the MB/PW, if your meta has a lot of walkers and CC MCs then I can see how it's worth it.

Oh so if the character has only 1 warp charge and rolls on a table and gets a power thata requires 2 warp charges he can reroll that? I should probably read into psychic power a little more.

A couple armies that Ive come in contact with that you MC or walkers are a lot are the flying dameon prince one, nids, chaos marines as Ive run into a list with 2 defilers, eldar with knights and lords. Those are the most common. But as mentioned if you you got stuff to stop those units from getting into assault with your blobs then you dont need the melta bombs.

Yeah, if you roll one higher than your mastery level you can reroll, but it has to be on the same table.

Yep, I seeing that list I can understand the need for MB, simply for the look on your opponent's face when his Wraithlord gets taken out by a guard sgt.

Maybe i will try out the primaris one day. But he just seems fragile unless his in a blob. But hes still fragile as a commissar will probably be attached and will kill him lol.

An interesting thought came to mind. Ive seen the bastion and am wondering if with the last foot guard list i built since its a double foc with 2hq and 4 troops what if i dropped one infantry squad for a bastion to put my warlord command squad in or at least on top of so they can still give orders to guys on the bottom. Viable? I thought about it because i could put my warlord ccs inside but remembered it they cant give orders from inside iirc. So then they would need to be on top. But that then still doesnt protect them any better as they still only have a 4 up cover and hell drakes could kill them all more easily as they will be bunched up. I also wounds get the benefit from the banner unless i was ontop.

I could put the warlord ccs inside and drop their banner for points. Drop one infantry squad with all upgrades and buy a bastion. Take another infantry squad and drop their lascannon and put them ontop the bastion and man an im placed gun maybe another quad but i would probably need to drop that squads melta gun.

I'd personally not take the bastion, as you either lose effectiveness of the CCS and they gain nothing from being on top. I also don't think it's worth it for the IS either. If you want another fortification (which isn't a bad idea), then I'd suggest another ADL, as it is nice and cheap (you don't need the quad, the Vendettas and other QG should have AA covered) and gives you a lot more flexibility in deployment, as you could either do 2 stacked lines, so they break one and still have to deal with the other, or one long one, making it harder to get around, not to mention the more creative options.

Don't run the primaris with a commissar, for obvious reasons, but he can last in a blob pretty well (I tend to run blobs anyway, as this is where the buffs get so much better) and he has generally been useful, not least because of a +2S force weapon with 5 attacks on the charge.

Yea after much thought the bastion would just take away firepower from the list and wont add much. That list is about as good as it will get so there isn't anything more i will really change with it. I will even post the list in the army list section and see if any other comments can be drawn from it.

Otherwise im going to try working out some mechanized lists as well to better perfect that area of army building.

Get units that are super accurate and get flyers. Also template weapons may be of some use - anything that can hit DE usually hurts pretty bad, so template weapons are usually pretty decent.

Yea the last list I have posted up for 2k is the finalized version which should be amazing with all the high strength weapons. Theres really not many blasts or large blasts but there is a fair amount of templates to burn them away as they try to assault.