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Post by: Anpu42
I keep looking over the Thousand Suns Chaos Marines and I am still confused as to why they considered a horrible choice.
Basic Thousand Suns Marines:
>Normal Marines Stats except for Ld 10: This is bad how?
>Armor Save 3+/4++: When did this become bad?
>Bolt Gun with Inferno Bolts: How is AP3 bad?
>Slow and Purposeful: Ok I can see were this could be an issue, but it cant make them that bad, a Rhino fixes that.
>Fearless: How is that bad now?
>Veterans of the Long War: Hatred (Space Marines) Bad?
>Elite Choice: Sorcerers can fix this.
Aspiring Champion:
>Normal Veteran Sergeant Stats, but with LD 10: How is this Bad?
>Armor Save 3+/4++: When did this become bad?
>Bolt Pistol/Force Weapon: Bad How?
>Level-1 Psyker: Bad How?
>Fearless: How is that bad now?
I know what it is it’s the Cost Per Model!
Wait: It can’t be that, they are cheaper than Plague Marines, everyone’s Favorite.
Personally I see them to be the perfect choice for objective Holders.
I want to know why everyone thinks there bad.
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Post by: GorillaWarfare
 Anpu42 wrote:
Wait: It can’t be that, they are cheaper than Plague Marines, everyone’s Favorite.
Personally I see them to be the perfect choice for objective Holders.
Actually, it is that. The plague marines may be more expensive per model, but you get more durability per point spent. The FNP is more valuable then a 4++, because FNP is in addition to your armor save or cover save. The T5 of the plague marine makes the FNP even more useful, in addition to helping against small arms fire.
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Post by: Deadshot
Overwatch is a big part of a shooty unit like TSons, which they can't do. Rhino doesn't fix SNP either, not in the slightest.
Plague Marines are better objective holders and don't requite a Tzeentch sorceror, just a Nurgle Lord, to be troops.
Tzeentch is a horrible discipline. An aspiring sorceror only gets Tzeentch powers and Sorcerors only get a maximum of 2 non-Tzeentch powers.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
Tzeentch powers aren't too bad. Doombolt is pretty awesome, actually...
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Post by: MarsNZ
Against anything worse than AP3 you're not even using that expensive 4++ and your Tsons are dying like normal marines. Normal marines can get 4++ from cover pretty easily too. A Rhino can't fix not sweeping. The level-1 Psyker is very costly for something that's limited to the hugely lacklustre Tzeench table.
Also Pmarines don't seem to pay a champion tax like other units in the Codex
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Post by: Anpu42
GorillaWarfare wrote: Anpu42 wrote:
Wait: It can’t be that, they are cheaper than Plague Marines, everyone’s Favorite.
Personally I see them to be the perfect choice for objective Holders.
Actually, it is that. The plague marines may be more expensive per model, but you get more durability per point spent. The FNP is more valuable then a 4++, because FNP is in addition to your armor save or cover save. The T5 of the plague marine makes the FNP even more useful, in addition to helping against small arms fire.
But FNP will do you no good vs S10 AP-2 Guard Pie Plates and Demolisher Cannons.
As for the other High Sterength AP3/AP2/AP1 Weapon a 4++ is better than a 5+ FNP
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Post by: GorillaWarfare
Anpu42 wrote:GorillaWarfare wrote: Anpu42 wrote:
Wait: It can’t be that, they are cheaper than Plague Marines, everyone’s Favorite.
Personally I see them to be the perfect choice for objective Holders.
Actually, it is that. The plague marines may be more expensive per model, but you get more durability per point spent. The FNP is more valuable then a 4++, because FNP is in addition to your armor save or cover save. The T5 of the plague marine makes the FNP even more useful, in addition to helping against small arms fire.
But FNP will do you no good vs S10 AP-2 Guard Pie Plates and Demolisher Cannons.
As for the other High Sterength AP3/AP2/AP1 Weapon a 4++ is better than a 5+ FNP
Indeed, however, against those AP3/AP2/AP1 weapons, the plague marines can get a cover save and FNP, whereas the Thousand Sons can get just cover or invulnerable.
Now about S10 AP2, the Thousand Sons win in that regard for durability, but it hardly justifies their cost. The Thousand Sons pay a hefty champion tax and have no special weapons. Plague Marines also get their plague knives and blight grenades.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
And a good Chaos player should be dealing with those pieplates. Predators and havocs, anyone?
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Post by: Ozomoto
Anpu42 wrote:GorillaWarfare wrote: Anpu42 wrote:
Wait: It can’t be that, they are cheaper than Plague Marines, everyone’s Favorite.
Personally I see them to be the perfect choice for objective Holders.
Actually, it is that. The plague marines may be more expensive per model, but you get more durability per point spent. The FNP is more valuable then a 4++, because FNP is in addition to your armor save or cover save. The T5 of the plague marine makes the FNP even more useful, in addition to helping against small arms fire.
But FNP will do you no good vs S10 AP-2 Guard Pie Plates and Demolisher Cannons.
As for the other High Sterength AP3/AP2/AP1 Weapon a 4++ is better than a 5+ FNP
I run thousands sons but thats not really true. Str 8 ap 3 pie plates plague marines usally get a cover save + feel no pain which is better then the 4+ invul. Str 10 pie plates are usually really short range.
That being said thousand sons make much better open field objective holders.
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Post by: MarsNZ
So against the small percentage of pie-plate low AP weapons Thousand Sons are better at surviving. Against everything else it's PM. That's a poor example.
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Post by: Quintinus
Yeah, when you GET it. Too bad you only have a 50% chance of getting it, reduced to a 33.3% chance of getting it if you're Mastery 2 or higher. The Tzeentch powers are complete ass. Wow, I'm so excited that I get to take a Psychic Test, then take a wound, and the POSSIBLY get a useful chaos boon! Ooooh, a Strength D6+1 blast! Let's not even forget that it doesn't even have an AP value. Doombolt is the only useful one and you can still get it Denied or what have you.  SoloFalcon1138 wrote:And a good Chaos player should be dealing with those pieplates. Predators and havocs, anyone?
Yes, Predators and Havocs are SOOO good at dealing with Leman Russes. Or Basilisks that are out of LOS.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
But if you are in cover then FnP is better, because you get both. Against my dark eldar you are paying a lot for a invul you wont use against all those splinters and your bolt guns are no more effective then any other. Then how are they good? I wouldn't care about fearless, as I would torrent the unit down anyway. The reason TS aren't good is simply because they pay a lot for an invul they wont often use, because why would I fire my AP 1/2/3 at them with a 4+ invul when I could fire it at something without it?
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Post by: Anpu42
 Deadshot wrote:Overwatch is a big part of a shooty unit like TSons, which they can't do. Rhino doesn't fix SNP either, not in the slightest.
How often are you getting Assaulted in 6th Edtion: The Shooty Edition [Sarcasm]. Most units shouuld not be getting close to you.
Plague Marines are better objective holders and don't requite a Tzeentch sorceror, just a Nurgle Lord, to be troops.
And this makes Thouseand Suns worse how?
Tzeentch is a horrible discipline. An aspiring sorceror only gets Tzeentch powers and Sorcerors only get a maximum of 2 non-Tzeentch powers.
You feel that the Firestorm is bad, I forgot Models never get close together.
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Post by: Quintinus
Anpu42 wrote: Deadshot wrote:Overwatch is a big part of a shooty unit like TSons, which they can't do. Rhino doesn't fix SNP either, not in the slightest.
How often are you getting Assaulted in 6th Edtion: The Shooty Edition [Sarcasm]. Most units shouuld not be getting close to you.
Assaults happen infrequently but they still DO happen. And Thousand Sons can't do anything about it.
Plague Marines are better objective holders and don't requite a Tzeentch sorceror, just a Nurgle Lord, to be troops.
And this makes Thouseand Suns worse how?
Have you SEEN the Tzeentch psychic discipline?
Tzeentch is a horrible discipline. An aspiring sorceror only gets Tzeentch powers and Sorcerors only get a maximum of 2 non-Tzeentch powers.
You feel that the Firestorm is bad, I forgot Models never get close together.
Dude, it's a D6+1 Strength small blast that has no AP. Even if you do wound them, they'll get their armor save. Plus it's not even a matter of spacing things out. Any competent player spreads out their models so most of the time you're only hitting 1-2 guys.
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Post by: Anpu42
Maybe it’s my local Meta Talking, but had two games in a row with my Marines that I never got the opportunity to even take a Save of any kind including cover. I am normally facing AP3 Flamers, Melta Guns and Plasma. The only thing getting saves are my Terminators.
How after are you facing the Heldrake or Heavy Flamers?
How about all of the Power Swords, Power Axes and other AP2 Melee Weapons in Challenges?
Those Terminates are going to crush your T5 Marines without working up a sweat, at least with the Thousand Suns, they will stand there for a Turn or two so you can some help to them.
I am not saying the Thousand Suns are the Best, but they definably don’t suck.
Automatically Appended Next Post:  Vladsimpaler wrote:Have you SEEN the Tzeentch psychic discipline?
No this makes the Sorcerer So-So, not the Thousand Sons. I look at the Aspiring Sorcerer as a Sergeant with a Power Weapon that can cause ID.
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Post by: hazal
Its true there are things where 4++ is better then t5 and fnp. Also there are situations where ap3 bolter shots are going to own face.
But the issue is that, point for point. The plague marines are better, as well as more survivable against a wider range of threats. They are also more threatening in more situations, their special weapons and plague knives are scary scary tools. That and they can take assaults better as well being able to over-watch and having defensive grenades.
I am not saying the T-sons are bad units, they are just hampered heavily by their inability to take special gear and their inflated cost. If they where 3 points cheaper and able to take 2 special weapons, you would likely see them a lot more.
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Post by: Savageconvoy
The powers you have access to are terrible. If the powers don't buff the unit, you shouldn't even have an expensive champion in there. I could see it justified if the champion was so good that the unit was more so to protect him, but even doombolt couldn't justify it. If the champion had access to diviniation, I could see them being useful.
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Post by: Anpu42
 hazal wrote:Its true there are things where 4++ is better then t5 and fnp. Also there are situations where ap3 bolter shots are going to own face.
But the issue is that, point for point. The plague marines are better, as well as more survivable against a wider range of threats.
I am not saying the T-sons are bad units, they are just hampered heavily by their inability to take special gear and their inflated cost. If they where 3 points cheaper and able to take 2 special weapons, you would likely see them a lot more.
I agree completely [I know you do see that phrase much here] other than the Special Weapons, to me it seems Un-Fluffy,
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Post by: Quintinus
Anpu42 wrote:Maybe it’s my local Meta Talking, but had two games in a row with my Marines that I never got the opportunity to even take a Save of any kind including cover. I am normally facing AP3 Flamers, Melta Guns and Plasma. The only thing getting saves are my Terminators. How after are you facing the Heldrake or Heavy Flamers?
Against the Baleflamer, a Plague Marine and a Thousand Son are fairly equal in terms of survive-ability.
How about all of the Power Swords, Power Axes and other AP2 Melee Weapons in Challenges?
Depends on who's wielding them when we're fighting. The nice thing is that Plagues can 1. Fire Overwatch, 2. Have defensive grenades to negate charging bonuses, 3. Have plague knives so against T4 and below opponents they can reroll to wound and against T5 or higher they wound on a 4+. Heck, they even have Krak Grenades for vehicles. In combat, Plagues have 2 attacks because 2 CCW. Champions have 3 attacks (because 2 CCW unless you have a lightning claw) and can have Power weapons as well. Meanwhile, in combat Thousand Sons do nothing except hit their opponent with a single attack. Oh and let's not forget that in challenges, your expensive sorcerer (he's 58 pts) HAS to challenge.
Those Terminates are going to crush your T5 Marines without working up a sweat, at least with the Thousand Suns, they will stand there for a Turn or two so you can some help to them.
Let's say the typical TH/ SS Terminators in a unit of 5. When they charge against Plagues, they get overwatch and blight grenades negate their +1 attack bonus so AT MOST they will get 10 attacks. Even less if one dies during overwatch, etc. Then the Plagues go first since Thunderhammers are unwieldy, and so I get to make my 2 attacks each per guy which reroll to wound because poison. If the worst case scenario happens and I don't kill any, then there's 8 attacks coming at me (sergeant has to challenge). With 8 attacks, 4 hit, 3.32 wound, and with FNP I lose 2.19 Plagues. versus Thousand Sons, the 5 charge in. You get no Overwatch so they get 12 attacks against you, again worst case scenario and you don't kill any. 12 attacks, 6 hit, 5 wound, you lose 2.5 Thousand Sons. (Remember again that you have to challenge with your sorcerer).
I am not saying the Thousand Suns are the Best, but they definably don’t suck.
Nah, they're pretty sucky.
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Post by: Anpu42
Your experiances and mine are compleatly difrent.
My Plage Marines have already Died in Droves to Walls of Plasma SPAM to my Marines before my Terminators even get close. The only thing that dies quicker is Bearzerkers.
I have had my Thousand Sons take concentrated fire from Multi-Meltas and Las-Cannons for 3 Truns befor Droping.
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Post by: Quintinus
Really neat dude, I'm glad you're as lucky as you are. However statistically Plague Marines are better which I proved up above.
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Post by: Anpu42
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Really neat dude, I'm glad you're as lucky as you are. However statistically Plague Marines are better which I proved up above.
While I do understand Mathhammer I have found it to be wrong on the table top at times.
So I will ask this, have you tried using Thousand Suns?
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Post by: Quintinus
Anpu42 wrote: Vladsimpaler wrote:
Really neat dude, I'm glad you're as lucky as you are. However statistically Plague Marines are better which I proved up above.
While I do understand Mathhammer I have found it to be wrong on the table top at times.
So I will ask this, have you tried using Thousand Suns?
No, I've played against them several times and tabled them every time. For reference I play Guard, Inquisition, and Daemons.
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Post by: Anpu42
Vladsimpaler wrote: Anpu42 wrote: Vladsimpaler wrote:
Really neat dude, I'm glad you're as lucky as you are. However statistically Plague Marines are better which I proved up above.
While I do understand Mathhammer I have found it to be wrong on the table top at times.
So I will ask this, have you tried using Thousand Suns?
No, I've played against them several times and tabled them every time. For reference I play Guard, Inquisition, and Daemons.
That explains Everthing.
Your you information, I uasly only Field 2 Squads of Thousand Suns, the rest is a the mix from Dark Vengance. I actualy found my best is the Hellbrute. I usaly get lucky and it spends the game with Fire Shield on it. Most of my Aspiring Champions I loose by them becoming Deamons, so yes I have been Lucky with them.
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Post by: bogalubov
Anpu42 wrote: Vladsimpaler wrote:
Really neat dude, I'm glad you're as lucky as you are. However statistically Plague Marines are better which I proved up above.
While I do understand Mathhammer I have found it to be wrong on the table top at times.
So I will ask this, have you tried using Thousand Suns?
Mathhammer isn't wrong. You just have to understand that in a dice game with a fairly small sample size you are subject to variability. Hoping that you hit the correct side of that variability is not a particularly appealing strategy.
The 1k sons AP3 bolters are easily reproduced by heldrakes (which are even better due to ignoring cover). Many units can take plasma weapons. Plague marines can take plasma guns for example. Then the plague marines can tackle the same targets as the 1k sons, but they can also affect vehicles in both shooting and assault. Furthermore, if they're faced with terminators the plasma guns have something to say about that as well. The 1k sons just bounce off terminators.
If you could take the sons without the aspiring sorcerer then perhaps you'd see them more frequently.
That explains Everthing.
Your you information, I uasly only Field 2 Squads of Thousand Suns, the rest is a the mix from Dark Vengance. I actualy found my best is the Hellbrute. I usaly get lucky and it spends the game with Fire Shield on it. Most of my Aspiring Champions I loose by them becoming Deamons, so yes I have been Lucky with them.
Finally, it's possible to proof read things even on a smart phone.
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Post by: Anpu42
I am sorry to say, but yes Mathhammer Can Be Wrong.
Look at the Heldrake, when it first came out it was hated as much for its look as much as for it’s “Rules”. Then it was taken out an used and then there was this “Holy [Bleep]”.
Blood Claws look Horrid especially when placed next to Grey Hunter, but when tooled up right and the right Synergy they are brutal.
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Post by: kb305
plague marines also get 2 special weapons and 1 combi weapon per 5 guys.
lol AP3 bolters. lol
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Post by: Anpu42
[Rant mode]
I AM NOT SAYING THE OTHER UNITS ARE NOT BETTER!!!
I AM SAYING THAT THE THOUSAND SUNS DO NOT SUCK!!!
[Rant off]
I would love to run an a Tzeentch Army, but as much as I love Fluffy Armies I cant find myself to do such.
When I do make a Chaos Marine list I usually take 1 Sorcerer with MoT, 2 10 Man Squads of Thousand Suns and usually one Squad of Obliterators with MoT. Then I use MoS units for most of the other Units.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Anpu42 wrote:
I agree completely [I know you do see that phrase much here] other than the Special Weapons, to me it seems Un-Fluffy,
I see this a lot and get confused as to why people think that.
Then I remember not everyone played 2nd ed where Thousand Sons squads had 3 special/heavies.
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Post by: Backfire
Another problem for TS is change to Rapid fire. In 5th edition Slow & Purposedful actually had a point since Relentless was very useful for Rapid firing troops (TS still sucked in 5th, mind you). However in 6th edition, every Rapid firing troop unit can move & shoot just like Thousand Sons, and since nearly every other troop is much cheaper, they will easily outshoot poor Rubric marines in any kind of shootout. S & P is pretty much only a detriment, preventing them from Overwatching. It would be useful if they could take Heavy weapons, which they of course can't. OK, it allows them to assault after rapid firing. Because you so want to assault with your Thousand Sons. <. sarcasm.
So no, Thousand Sons aren't great, and new armies like Tau which can spam ungodly amount of dakka make them even more obsolete.
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Post by: Anpu42
 Platuan4th wrote: Anpu42 wrote:
I agree completely [I know you do see that phrase much here] other than the Special Weapons, to me it seems Un-Fluffy,
I see this a lot and get confused as to why people think that.
Then I remember not everyone played 2nd ed where Thousand Sons squads had 3 special/heavies.
I will admit I am new to CSM, but Special Weapons, just don't feel quite right to me.
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Post by: pizzaguardian
Mathhammer is never wrong, it is always honest about averages.
And you seem to forget the faq buff to the helldrake. It was already heavily used in my meta and kept being used after that.
I too want my upcoming TS army to work, but they dont for said reasons by other people already, i will list mine as i recognised them so far.
They are too expensive with sorcerer and rhino combined.
They lack a reliable anti tank.
Their assault surely doesnt work that good.
Ap3 bolters are nice yes but they need to get really close to make their points in a game. 3 ap3 wound for a 10man t son unit in 24" just doesnt seem that good to me.
Yet even against these reasons my TS army project continues since dust filled automatons are too appealing for me.
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Post by: Anpu42
 pizzaguardian wrote:Mathhammer is never wrong, it is always honest about averages.
And you seem to forget the faq buff to the helldrake. It was already heavilynused in my meta and kept being used after that.
I too want my upcoming TS army to work, but they dont for said reasons by other people already, i will list mine as i recognised them so far.
They are too expensive with sorcerer and rhino combined.
They lack a reliable anti tank.
Their assault surely doesnt work that good.
Ap3 bolters are nice yss but they need to get really close to make their points in a game. 2.25 ap3 wound for a 10man t son unit in 24" just doesnt seem that good to me.
Yet even against these reasons my TS army project continues since dust filled automatons are too appealing for me.
So you are saying my experiances are n ot True.
That Mathhammer prove my experiances false.
What I am saying is Mathhammer CAN, not IS wrong. Things that Mathhammer can't tellyou about are intagables, like Tactics, terain and Local Meta.
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Post by: pizzaguardian
You are not putting those details in the mathhammer tough. At least i dont. I just make simple calc to see what would happen in a very strict and controlled enviorement. Expectin mathammer to tell you which army is better with every element of the game involved, is like your expecting my calculator to plan a round trip to Mars.
And yes i am saying now your experiences are not true, for me. Your experiences are yours and mine are mine.
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Post by: kb305
they lack reliable anti anything. offensively they have virtually nothing going for them.
the fact they cant overwatch or defend themselves in CC makes them even worse.
power armour is already being ignored by pretty much everyone. AP3 bolters means nothing.
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Post by: Anpu42
So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.
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Post by: Quintinus
Anpu42 wrote: Vladsimpaler wrote: No, I've played against them several times and tabled them every time. For reference I play Guard, Inquisition, and Daemons.
That explains Everthing. Your you information, I uasly only Field 2 Squads of Thousand Suns, the rest is a the mix from Dark Vengance. I actualy found my best is the Hellbrute. I usaly get lucky and it spends the game with Fire Shield on it. Most of my Aspiring Champions I loose by them becoming Deamons, so yes I have been Lucky with them.
You're right, it does explain everything. It explains that Thousand Sons suck against some fairly commonly played armies. Your entire argument FOR Thousand Sons has been a couple of anecdotes and feeling-based arguments. Yes math-hammer is all about predicting averages. But you'd be crazy if you thought that Thousand Sons could beat Death Company in combat.
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Post by: Anpu42
Vladsimpaler wrote: Anpu42 wrote:
Vladsimpaler wrote:
No, I've played against them several times and tabled them every time. For reference I play Guard, Inquisition, and Daemons.
That explains Everthing.
Your you information, I uasly only Field 2 Squads of Thousand Suns, the rest is a the mix from Dark Vengance. I actualy found my best is the Hellbrute. I usaly get lucky and it spends the game with Fire Shield on it. Most of my Aspiring Champions I loose by them becoming Deamons, so yes I have been Lucky with them.
You're right, it does explain everything. It explains that Thousand Sons suck against some fairly commonly played armies.
Your entire argument FOR Thousand Sons has been a couple of anecdotes and feeling-based arguments. Yes math-hammer is all about predicting averages. But you'd be crazy if you thought that Thousand Sons could beat Death Company in combat.
No this just proves you can win with them.
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Post by: KingDeath
Anpu42 wrote:So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.
I am certain that someone, somewhere has used Gretchin to consistently beat squads of Terminators, yet sadly anecdotes are of little value since we know nothing about your usual opponents, if you were unusualy lucky or if you are Alexander the Great incarnate. What we do know is that mathhammer says that 1k sons are overcosted/ underpowered. When in doubt i tend to trust statistics over anecdotes.
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Post by: Anpu42
KingDeath wrote: Anpu42 wrote:So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.
I am certain that someone, somewhere has used Gretchin to consistently beat squads of Terminators, yet sadly anecdotes are of little value since we know nothing about your usual opponents, if you were unusualy lucky or if you are Alexander the Great incarnate. What we do know is that mathhammer says that 1k sons are overcosted/ underpowered. When in doubt i tend to trust statistics over anecdotes.
I amnot talking about "Actedotes", I am talking about real world Experiance.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Anpu42 wrote: Deadshot wrote:Overwatch is a big part of a shooty unit like TSons, which they can't do. Rhino doesn't fix SNP either, not in the slightest.
How often are you getting Assaulted in 6th Edtion: The Shooty Edition [Sarcasm]. Most units shouuld not be getting close to you.
Assaults happen quite often in 6th, especially when a unit like Tsons has to be at 12" for optimal firepower effect. They just don't happen early enough for most armies to be able to rely on them for primary battle potential.
Plague Marines are better objective holders and don't requite a Tzeentch sorceror, just a Nurgle Lord, to be troops.
And this makes Thouseand Suns worse how? Because objectives are important and a big role for troops to fulfill and Tzeentch sorcerors don't provide the same utility as Nurgle Lords to a list generally.
Tsons are very slow, their AP3 is highly situational (it means squat if facing Orks or IG for example) they lack many capabilities of other MEQ units (e.g. supplemental special and heavy weapons), and lack the ability to Overwatch. For what they cost you're generally better off just buying equivalent points of basic marines instead point for point, often far better.
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Post by: KingDeath
Anpu42 wrote:KingDeath wrote: Anpu42 wrote:So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.
I am certain that someone, somewhere has used Gretchin to consistently beat squads of Terminators, yet sadly anecdotes are of little value since we know nothing about your usual opponents, if you were unusualy lucky or if you are Alexander the Great incarnate. What we do know is that mathhammer says that 1k sons are overcosted/ underpowered. When in doubt i tend to trust statistics over anecdotes.
I amnot talking about "Actedotes", I am talking about real world Experiance.
We have no way to actualy know and evaluate the circumstances of your successes with 1k sons.
What we do have is some pretty solid math which points to 1k sons being rather bad.
As i said before, there are many factors which could explain why you did well with them, bad competition, dumb luck or even the ability to use what little advantages 1k sons have to your advantage against opponents who are unprepared, are all possible explanations.
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Post by: somerandomidiot
Anpu42 wrote:KingDeath wrote: Anpu42 wrote:So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.
I am certain that someone, somewhere has used Gretchin to consistently beat squads of Terminators, yet sadly anecdotes are of little value since we know nothing about your usual opponents, if you were unusualy lucky or if you are Alexander the Great incarnate. What we do know is that mathhammer says that 1k sons are overcosted/ underpowered. When in doubt i tend to trust statistics over anecdotes.
I amnot talking about "Actedotes", I am talking about real world Experiance.
I play Thousand Sons. I play them a LOT. I play them at GTs, I play them at local tournaments, I play them on friendly game nights. In fact, I do rather well with them. In our local tournament circuit (the Great Escape Games Contest of Champions in Sacramento, if anyone here is from California) where we get an average of 40-50 people every 2 months for a tourney, I consistently place in the top 5, if not winning the entire tournament. I usually run Ahriman and at least 3 units of Thousand Sons, as well as Tzeentch-marked cultists, Tzeentch-marked obliterators, Tzeentch-marked Terminators, etc. I hope you get the idea.
Thousand Sons are TERRIBLE. Painfully bad. You're paying too many points for a marine with a bolter whose AP3 will rarely matter, and when it does your opponent will almost always still get a cover save. The 4+ invul is nice, but that doesn't matter when your unit can't really kill anything of value. Then we get to the psychic powers... The Tzeentch discipline is so bad it hurts. It's gotten to the point where if I don't roll doombolt on my sorcerer, I don't even use him for psychic powers. He's better off firing his bolt pistol than the small blast at most targets, unless I get insanely lucky and somebody just deepstriked (and even then, why aren't I firing my obliterator's plasma cannons at them first?).
There are plenty of good and useful units in the Chaos codex, but Thousand Sons aren't one of them. I'm not going to tell you not to play with them, as obviously I do all right, and still enjoy my army. But you'd be a fool not to understand that you're going in with a handicap.
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Post by: Anpu42
KingDeath wrote: Anpu42 wrote:KingDeath wrote: Anpu42 wrote:So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.
I am certain that someone, somewhere has used Gretchin to consistently beat squads of Terminators, yet sadly anecdotes are of little value since we know nothing about your usual opponents, if you were unusualy lucky or if you are Alexander the Great incarnate. What we do know is that mathhammer says that 1k sons are overcosted/ underpowered. When in doubt i tend to trust statistics over anecdotes.
I amnot talking about "Actedotes", I am talking about real world Experiance.
We have no way to actualy know and evaluate the circumstances of your successes with 1k sons.
What we do have is some pretty solid math which points to 1k sons being rather bad.
As i said before, there are many factors which could explain why you did well with them, bad competition, dumb luck or even the ability to use what little advantages 1k sons have to your advantage against opponents who are unprepared, are all possible explanations.
And there are alot of the things that exploit there weakneses that don't hapen every game.
How about this, I would like to see everyone who thinks Any Unit just sucks get together and and just have a game were some of these "Useless Units" are feilded. Let personal Experiance tell you if Your mathhamm is corect.
Remeber Therory is great, but you need to repeat the result three times to prove it and that is what I go by.
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Post by: somerandomidiot
Anpu42 wrote:KingDeath wrote: Anpu42 wrote:KingDeath wrote: Anpu42 wrote:So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.
I am certain that someone, somewhere has used Gretchin to consistently beat squads of Terminators, yet sadly anecdotes are of little value since we know nothing about your usual opponents, if you were unusualy lucky or if you are Alexander the Great incarnate. What we do know is that mathhammer says that 1k sons are overcosted/ underpowered. When in doubt i tend to trust statistics over anecdotes.
I amnot talking about "Actedotes", I am talking about real world Experiance.
We have no way to actualy know and evaluate the circumstances of your successes with 1k sons.
What we do have is some pretty solid math which points to 1k sons being rather bad.
As i said before, there are many factors which could explain why you did well with them, bad competition, dumb luck or even the ability to use what little advantages 1k sons have to your advantage against opponents who are unprepared, are all possible explanations.
And there are alot of the things that exploit there weakneses that don't hapen every game.
How about this, I would like to see everyone who thinks Any Unit just sucks get together and and just have a game were some of these "Useless Units" are feilded. Let personal Experiance tell you if Your mathhamm is corect.
Remeber Therory is great, but you need to repeat the result three times to prove it and that is what I go by.
I'm guessing my post went out after you started yours, but I have extensive personal experience playing Thousand Sons, and I completely disagree with you.
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Post by: pizzaguardian
So you want us to have useless units vs useless units battles?
That wont be very informative.
And your aggressive disregard for theory is weird. Your three times method would get you results like
" this TS army is great vs a vanilal sm codex, when it is the purge the alien mission and the deployment is hammer&anvil, while TS goes first and there is night fighting there also is no gate of infinity libby on the other side and he had 2 preds and a devstator squad."
Even by your standarts you have to do this exact match under exact circumstances thee times. Very weird indeed.
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Post by: Anpu42
 somerandomidiot wrote:I'm guessing my post went out after you started yours, but I have extensive personal experience playing Thousand Sons, and I completely disagree with you.
Then can you tell me wht us feel that way?
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Post by: somerandomidiot
Anpu42 wrote: somerandomidiot wrote:I'm guessing my post went out after you started yours, but I have extensive personal experience playing Thousand Sons, and I completely disagree with you.
Then can you tell me wht us feel that way?
I'm assuming you mean "tell me why you feel that way", in which case I did exactly that in a post earlier.
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Post by: Anpu42
Anpu42 wrote: somerandomidiot wrote: Anpu42 wrote: somerandomidiot wrote:I'm guessing my post went out after you started yours, but I have extensive personal experience playing Thousand Sons, and I completely disagree with you.
Then can you tell me wht us feel that way?
I'm assuming you mean "tell me why you feel that way", in which case I did exactly that in a post earlier.
What I ment was, what experiances did you have that Proved Mathammer Correct in your case.
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Post by: somerandomidiot
I'm not going to reference every game I've ever played with Thousand Sons in 6th edition, as there have been several hundred if not a thousand. My experience is that they have performed as I would expect them to, based on mathhammer. They have a few strengths that the math doesn't represent, such as being difficult for your opponent to predict exactly how much firepower they will have to dedicate to wipe out the unit (which can prove vital when a squad is holding an objective), but on the whole I don't disagree with anything that's been said regarding their weaknesses, and feel they are a sub-par selection.
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Post by: Davor
For all the people who Mathhammer all the time, WTF is wrong with you people? I mean why are you not making money off this by gambling? If your Mathhammer skills are soooo good, why not go to the casino, race track and put your Mathhammer skills to good use? 
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Post by: Anpu42
Well this is the experience that got me to like them. I had two 10 man Squads. One squad was sitting in a set of trees to hold an objective. The marine player hade a Tactical Squad move to about 14” way and fired ineffectively at me from another set of trees. I moved forward and gunned it down with wounds to spare, then a second fed me 4 Plasma Shots [Plasma Gun and Combi-Plasma] along with a Plasma Cannon and the remaining Bolter, I lost three Models. I returned fire along with the Helbrute and killed all but 2 models which the Helbrute finished in Melee. The last thing they killed off was a Sternguard Combat Squad after I lost 3 models from it. I just wish it was a Kill Point Mission.
The other one is were I tried a 20 model unit and it spend most of the game in melee with some Genestealers getting withered down by 6-12 Rending Shots a turn [of which I was saving 4-6 a turn. They lasted long enough for me to get my Obliterators in close enough to feed them Flamers and nearly finishing them off. Now I admit that this would not have happened if the Sorcerer had not killed off the Brood Lord with his Force Staff after making 4 Rending Saves.
These are why I don’t think they suck.
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Post by: ThePrimordial
Thousand Sons Rubric marines are literally souls bound to armor. As long as the armor isn't in a thousand pieces they'll still be bound and able to move around.
The fact they don't have an a Feel no pain or a second wound is unbelievably stupid.
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Post by: Platuan4th
 ThePrimordial wrote:
The fact they don't have an a Feel no pain or a second wound is unbelievably stupid.
After all, an army with 2 wounds has a lot going for it. 
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Post by: Ailaros
Firstly, as others have said, the problem with slow and purposeless is the lack of overwatch. Secondly, what everyone seems to be missing with the sorcerers is that, while a single tzeentch power might suck, they still come with a 4++ and a force weapon. Against any monstrous creature you're coming up against, that sorcerer gets to reroll his invulnerable saves (thanks to being in a challenge, and everyone around him pitching in for morale support), and once he survives that, he's just got to land a single wound to just end the MC in one hit. From a sergeant. Note that they're also better against multi-wound things like spawn and wraiths for the same reason.
Anyways, as for the main show, I agree, they're not nearly that terrible. Everyone pointing out that units can get cover, which makes the ++ not as good as FNP on the defensive, and the Ap3 not as good on the offense are missing a lot.
On the one hand, last I checked, there were things like helldrakes. As well as other shooting that is both at least Ap3 and ignores cover. And there's close combat, which always ignores cover. There are plenty of times that an armor save can be circumvented where a ++ will come in handy.
On the other hand, it's kind of missing the point to talk about cover saves in that way. While plague marines have to hide in cover to get a save against plasma guns, 1ksons don't. They're not limited by where they can and cannot get cover. Meanwhile, the Ap3 of their bolters forces the reverse on your opponents - they become beholden to cover in a way that they weren't before.
That means that you can go anywhere on the table in equal safety while hemming your opponent into limited places on the table. Any player who understands field position will be willing to pay for that kind of an advantage. That you get some other neat bling on top is just icing on the cake.
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Post by: kb305
Davor wrote:For all the people who Mathhammer all the time, WTF is wrong with you people? I mean why are you not making money off this by gambling? If your Mathhammer skills are soooo good, why not go to the casino, race track and put your Mathhammer skills to good use?
we probably graduated highschool/college and took math up to grade 12 and are not slowed so it just comes naturally?
and because we have these skills we would avoid places like that. it's the nonmathhammering people that would go there and waste their money.
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Post by: Savageconvoy
I've actually tried them out cause I wanted to try a Tzeentch heavy army and was already taking a sorc. so I gave it a shot.
My experience was that they quickly chewed through points and didn't have any upgrades worth taking.
I got them onto the field against a Ravenwing bike list.
That wasn't a fun game. So many bolters... I just couldn't make enough 3+ saves and his bikes were able to do so much more than the 1ksons for around the same cost.
Now if I had taken plague marines, I would have gotten to take armor and then FNP saves while also taking less wounds due to T5.
Really just look at it like this. 1K sons are stuck in the middle ground. They aren't durable like plague marines and don't have the quality of shooting noisemarines can take. And this edition doesn't favor middle grounds. It's one extreme or the other. Either be unkillable with decent firepower or be a glasscannon that's cheap enough to make it's points back.
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Post by: Anpu42
It is also about Synergy, you can take a Pair of 20 model Bare Bones Thousand Suns Squads [Yes I know that almost 1,000 points, it a 1,000 points with a pair of Melta Bombs] and force you opponent to deal with them, while something else deals with them, usually that is a lot of Dakka or Heavy Weapons Pointed at them, while other things kill off their troops.
This is very viable in a 2k+ Game.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
Anpu42 wrote:It is also about Synergy, you can take a Pair of 20 model Bare Bones Thousand Suns Squads [Yes I know that almost 1,000 points, it a 1,000 points with a pair of Melta Bombs] and force you opponent to deal with them, while something else deals with them, usually that is a lot of Dakka or Heavy Weapons Pointed at them, while other things kill off their troops.
This is very viable in a 2k+ Game.
I faced something like that.
I just threw a cheap unit to assault them and they were tied up useless the entire game.
It's a pathetic waste of points that can't do anything.
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Post by: Savageconvoy
The problem is that for 1000 points my opponents can field a lot more threats than the 1K put out. Eating up points is terrible for synergy.
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Post by: Anpu42
I must have lost half my post in the copy past.
It was supposed to be about Synergy and then just something fun to do.
But yes Synergy is important. One or two Squads can force your opponent to react to you. he has to deal with them or they will chew up Power Armor just from AP3 Fire. And while they are drawing fire this give you the freedom to use your other units to do other jobs.
Ignoring them is something they will only do once.
Now I have not gone though and worked out the required synergy like I did with my Space Wolves, but I am sure some one has figured out some.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
Anpu42 wrote:I must have lost half my post in the copy past.
It was supposed to be about Synergy and then just something fun to do.
But yes Synergy is important. One or two Squads can force your opponent to react to you. he has to deal with them or they will chew up Power Armor just from AP3 Fire. And while they are drawing fire this give you the freedom to use your other units to do other jobs.
Ignoring them is something they will only do once.
Now I have not gone though and worked out the required synergy like I did with my Space Wolves, but I am sure some one has figured out some.
The problem is you can easily ignore them, in my case I simply used cover, charged and killed them with my noise marines, I've even killed them at range by using mass of fire. If you field Thousand Sons then I know I'll have an easy game, because no matter what "synergy" you come up with my own Slaanesh Sorcerer will buff my troops and debuff yours in a far better synergy without needing much complicated issues.
I also notice you ignore the posts from people who have actually used thousand sons on a major scale.
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Post by: Ozomoto
There was a time when they were extremely good. That is during 6 th edition before they got there new codex.
They marines were the same as 5th (and now actually except votlw) but sap got better.
The sorcerer however was physchic mastery level 2 and could roll on telepathy. I remember maxing out with sqauds of k sons in sets of 5 just to field 6 mastery level 2 psykers
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Post by: Anpu42
Ignore, no.
mis them in the wave of Post Yes.
This thing is moving quicker than the Codex: Smace Marine thread sometines that I am alos trying to follow.
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Post by: Makutsu
Davor wrote:For all the people who Mathhammer all the time, WTF is wrong with you people? I mean why are you not making money off this by gambling? If your Mathhammer skills are soooo good, why not go to the casino, race track and put your Mathhammer skills to good use?
Because statistics say that you are guaranteed to lose in every gambling game that a casino offers? Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and back to the topic, I feel like the OP is biased already towards thousand sons and not really realizing the cons of TS.
If you say Mathhammer is faulty in any way, by default you're not talking about if the unit is better or not. You're basically stating an "opinion" that you think TS is good.
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Post by: Anpu42
 Makutsu wrote:Oh, and back to the topic, I feel like the OP is biased already towards thousand sons and not really realizing the cons of TS.
If you say Mathhammer is faulty in any way, by default you're not talking about if the unit is better or not. You're basically stating an "opinion" that you think TS is good.
I know Plague Marines are Better and have stated that a few times.
Yes I think Thousand Suns are a good unit if you use them right, just like any other unit can be good. They have their uses, almost all of them in a Power Armored Marine Rich Environment.
Just because a unit is not the Best does not it is no good, that what I have been trying to say.
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Post by: Makutsu
No they are bad because of the huge tax cost they have.
The Tzeentch Sorceror and the Aspiring Champion are both useless. That's a couple of hundred of points sunk into things that don't output enough for their point cost.
Paying huge taxes are bad.
If you don't take the Sorceror then your TSs are Elites, not being able to take objectives means that they are completely just pure bad.
If Plague Marines couldn't take objectives their popularity would definitely go down.
On top of that, as people said SnP + their normal combat ability makes them really bad in combat. Hence bad.
No overwatch and sweeping is bad.
A 4++ is bad too as it's not that survivable either, for the amount of points vs the survivability makes them bad.
When you can take Plague Marines or a Heldrake instead makes them bad.
Is playing at a handicap a good thing? No.
Heldrake fills the exact same role but much better and costs about the same but does a lot more damage and is way more survivable makes TS bad.
A subpar choice is bad.
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Post by: Ailaros
ZebioLizard2 wrote:I just threw a cheap unit to assault them and they were tied up useless the entire game.
Your opponent had nothing whatsoever that could bail their 1ksons out of close combat?
That's a problem with your opponent, not with 1ksons. It would be like blaming berzerkers for not being able to catch stuff in close combat when they were in transports. If the entire rest of the army can't open a transport or two, then the person is playing a khorne army wrong, rather than that berzerkers are terrible because they fail to excel in something which they were, on purpose, designed not to excel in.
And, has been mentioned several times already, plague marines are only more durable when they're hiding in cover. They're not when they're out in the open, at least, against weapons that are good against marines. The fact that PM NEED to hide in cover while 1ksons don't is, as mentioned, one of the primary benefits of 1ksons. They not only bring their cover save wherever they go (including not in actual cover), but it's also a cover save that they get to use against helldrakes and the like.
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Post by: Anpu42
Then what do I use if I don’t want to play Plague Marines or use Heldrakes?
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Post by: Makutsu
Anpu42 wrote:Then what do I use if I don’t want to play Plague Marines or use Heldrakes?
No one says you can't play them, I use a lot of random things for fun sakes and try out silly combos.
They just won't end up on my tournament list.
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Post by: StarTrotter
Cultists, bikers, chaos spawn, havocs, termicide, Axe of Blind Fury Juggerlord, Chaos Undivided Sorcerers, Daemon Prince (not best thing but can be rather nasty even then), Las Predator, Obliterators. Heck whilst Mutilators aren't the best thing ever buy one and use it as disruption dsing it to destract the enemy for a turn and hopefully even get in cc if lucky.
Along with that, nobody is trying to stop you from playing Thousand Sons. People call Possessed, Helbrutes, Raptors, Khornate Berzerkers, Thousand Sons, etc bad... but then you will have people like Ailerous that have won 3 games in a row with a heavily Khornate army. Just because the internet recommends (at least partially due to meta and mathammer) Plague Marines doesn't mean you need to take them. One can defy mathammer through better comprehension and luck besting enemies with the "best list" just as one can use the "best list" and although a good gamer suffer from rolling far too many ones statistically.
Then there is meta, how much terrain is on the battlefield, special rules of game, how competitive, what are the players at the gw, etc. I'll elaborate my opinion of TS but I had to say that nobody came in here declairing that you can only play with Plague Marines or Heldrakes.
Anyways.... Thousand Sons... Oh how I have always liked thee. Fluff wise, god wise... they are my favourite Traitor Legion and I rather enjoy Ahriman. In terms of their playability.... I will respond with my own experiences. They aren't that good. They cost model per model only 1 less than Plague Marines whilst also having to pay an approximately 58 point tax to get a sergeant. This is not cheap in the slightest and I doubt it is really worth almost the price of a normal Sorcerer. Anyways, time to continue analyzing the Thousand Sons.
Pros:
-4++ Invuln meaning less worry of the few S10 shots, you don't have to worry about Tau/IG/SM/etc stripping away a cover save and then blasting you with a S10 AP3 Ordinance! It also means you can march forth even if the enemy is plasma heavy knowing you have a mobile cover save that very few weapons can rip off in the game.
-AP3 bolters! Want to make Tactical Marines afraid and Sternguards a tad bit nervous? Welcome to the AP3 zone where we will shoot you dead!
-Sergeant with Force Weapon meaning on a lucky day (good rolls against slow I like Tervigons in particular) you can instant kill a MC and even enemy warlords granted it tends to be unlikely.
-Fearless! No worries of your guys running off the table
Cons:
-Killed just as easily by standard guns as any other marine
-they are expensive
-Stuck to only using rhinos as transports which they will die to just as often as a standard marine
-They are Slow and Purposeful meaning no running and no Overwatch
-Sergeant costs 58 points. This cannot be mentioned enough. He costs a bloody load and whilst he does have a 4++ save, there are only so many saves he can pass with cheering and that ignores the likelyhood that the TS have already lost some models and are possibly fighting some other enemies
-Have to get a Tzeentch Sorcerer to actually make them troops meaning a large tax to bring them into the game as troops (I've heard of few that use them for anything else) and forced to roll a psyker ability on a table not really worth it and the +1 invuln only worth it if you pay extra for a 5++ or 4++ that raises to a 4++ or 3++.
-The Tzeentch Psyker table simply isn't that good. The primaris is one of the worst in the game, the boon of mutation is horrid, the last spell cannot be used by your sergeant, and the doombolt is the only good one.
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Post by: Quintinus
 Ailaros wrote:ZebioLizard2 wrote:I just threw a cheap unit to assault them and they were tied up useless the entire game.
Your opponent had nothing whatsoever that could bail their 1ksons out of close combat? That's a problem with your opponent, not with 1ksons. It would be like blaming berzerkers for not being able to catch stuff in close combat when they were in transports. If the entire rest of the army can't open a transport or two, then the person is playing a khorne army wrong, rather than that berzerkers are terrible because they fail to excel in something which they were, on purpose, designed not to excel in.
And herein lies the problem: You've spent so many points on the 1ksons that you don't have enough points to deal with anything else. And that never ends well. Also you seem to be implying that Berserkers were well designed. 
And, has been mentioned several times already, plague marines are only more durable when they're hiding in cover. They're not when they're out in the open, at least, against weapons that are good against marines. The fact that PM NEED to hide in cover while 1ksons don't is, as mentioned, one of the primary benefits of 1ksons. They not only bring their cover save wherever they go (including not in actual cover), but it's also a cover save that they get to use against helldrakes and the like.
Where are you getting this from? I did the math, 1Ksons and Plague Marines are basically even when it comes to the baleflamer. Plagues are T5 so are only wounded on a 3+, and they get their FNP. 1KSons are wounded on a 2+ but get their 4+ invul. Against basic weapons of each race, Plague Marines will almost always come out ahead. I haven't calculated the effects of bladestorm weapons against them. They only have a problem against weapons that cause instant death, and that's it.  StarTrotter wrote:. Along with that, nobody is trying to stop you from playing Thousand Sons. People call Possessed, Helbrutes, Raptors, Khornate Berzerkers, Thousand Sons, etc bad... but then you will have people like Ailerous that have won 3 games in a row with a heavily Khornate army.
Wow, he got lucky. woooooo Also what is "statistical outlier" for 800, Alex.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
Ailaros wrote:ZebioLizard2 wrote:I just threw a cheap unit to assault them and they were tied up useless the entire game.
Your opponent had nothing whatsoever that could bail their 1ksons out of close combat?
That's a problem with your opponent, not with 1ksons. It would be like blaming berzerkers for not being able to catch stuff in close combat when they were in transports. If the entire rest of the army can't open a transport or two, then the person is playing a khorne army wrong, rather than that berzerkers are terrible because they fail to excel in something which they were, on purpose, designed not to excel in.
And, has been mentioned several times already, plague marines are only more durable when they're hiding in cover. They're not when they're out in the open, at least, against weapons that are good against marines. The fact that PM NEED to hide in cover while 1ksons don't is, as mentioned, one of the primary benefits of 1ksons. They not only bring their cover save wherever they go (including not in actual cover), but it's also a cover save that they get to use against helldrakes and the like.
I had other, better units as a result dealing with the rest of their army. It's not like I had just that unit vs Thousand Sons + Additional synergy.
And as a result, I had more because of my cheaper costs with my noise marine army.
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Post by: Anpu42
Makutsu wrote:No one says you can't play them, I use a lot of random things for fun sakes and try out silly combos.
I would probably try to come up with a nice list, but when I field 2 Bare Bones 10 man Squads, maybe with the Icon of Flame in my list, what should I take with them. All I get is “DON’T Take Thousand Suns!” and then I spend the next 4 pages saying this is what I want to play.
So yes people are telling me what to play.
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Post by: Quintinus
Anpu42 wrote: Makutsu wrote:No one says you can't play them, I use a lot of random things for fun sakes and try out silly combos.
I would probably try to come up with a nice list, but when I field 2 Bare Bones 10 man Squads, maybe with the Icon of Flame in my list, what should I take with them. All I get is “DON’T Take Thousand Suns!” and then I spend the next 4 pages saying this is what I want to play.
So yes people are telling me what to play.
The thread title is "I am still trying to figure out why the Thousand Suns are Horrible". You want people to prove that they're horrible; people did.
In response you get all emotional and offended.
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Post by: StarTrotter
Vladsimpaler wrote: Ailaros wrote:ZebioLizard2 wrote:I just threw a cheap unit to assault them and they were tied up useless the entire game.
Your opponent had nothing whatsoever that could bail their 1ksons out of close combat?
That's a problem with your opponent, not with 1ksons. It would be like blaming berzerkers for not being able to catch stuff in close combat when they were in transports. If the entire rest of the army can't open a transport or two, then the person is playing a khorne army wrong, rather than that berzerkers are terrible because they fail to excel in something which they were, on purpose, designed not to excel in.
And herein lies the problem: You've spent so many points on the 1ksons that you don't have enough points to deal with anything else. And that never ends well. Also you seem to be implying that Berserkers were well designed.
And, has been mentioned several times already, plague marines are only more durable when they're hiding in cover. They're not when they're out in the open, at least, against weapons that are good against marines. The fact that PM NEED to hide in cover while 1ksons don't is, as mentioned, one of the primary benefits of 1ksons. They not only bring their cover save wherever they go (including not in actual cover), but it's also a cover save that they get to use against helldrakes and the like.
Where are you getting this from? I did the math, 1Ksons and Plague Marines are basically even when it comes to the baleflamer. Plagues are T5 so are only wounded on a 3+, and they get their FNP. 1KSons are wounded on a 2+ but get their 4+ invul.
Against basic weapons of each race, Plague Marines will almost always come out ahead. I haven't calculated the effects of bladestorm weapons against them. They only have a problem against weapons that cause instant death, and that's it.
StarTrotter wrote:.
Along with that, nobody is trying to stop you from playing Thousand Sons. People call Possessed, Helbrutes, Raptors, Khornate Berzerkers, Thousand Sons, etc bad... but then you will have people like Ailerous that have won 3 games in a row with a heavily Khornate army.
Wow, he got lucky. woooooo
Also what is "statistical outlier" for 800, Alex.
Pardon me sir I didn't mean it that way. I should have rephrased it. All I meant was that mathammer is correct but everyone can play models they like and occasional outliers will occur where players, even with the sub-par units, manage to win due to multiple scenarios (from how tables are set up, to any special rules, to the level of competitiveness of the local players, what armies are heavy and how they tend to play). I just meant to say play Thousand Sons if you wish to play TS
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Post by: Quintinus
StarTrotter wrote:
Pardon me sir I didn't mean it that way. I should have rephrased it. All I meant was that mathammer is correct but everyone can play models they like and occasional outliers will occur where players when even with the sub-par units manage to wwin due to multiple scenarios (froma how tables are set up, to any special rules, to the level of competitiveness of the local players, what armies are heavy and how they tend to play). I just meant to say play Thousand Sons if you wish to play TS
This is completely fair and I don't believe that any reasonable person will have problems with what you said. Very eloquently put too! I would say that wraps up this thread.
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Post by: StarTrotter
Anpu42 wrote: Makutsu wrote:No one says you can't play them, I use a lot of random things for fun sakes and try out silly combos.
I would probably try to come up with a nice list, but when I field 2 Bare Bones 10 man Squads, maybe with the Icon of Flame in my list, what should I take with them. All I get is “DON’T Take Thousand Suns!” and then I spend the next 4 pages saying this is what I want to play.
So yes people are telling me what to play.
Except nobody is. People say that they are bad because of _____ and _____. You ended your first post with "I want to know why everyone thinks there bad." and so people answered why they are considered bad (and I frankly agree with them). But to claim we are telling you not to play with the model is nonsense.
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Post by: BrotherVord
Anpu42 wrote:
I amnot talking about "Actedotes", I am talking about real world Experiance.
do you...do you know what an anecdote is? Cause that's pretty much exactly it...a story that a person tells that the storyteller at least claims happened.
Anyway after reading three pages of this, I'm sort of convinced that you're just trolling at this point because everybody else has so thoroughly logic-thrashed you. I've not played against thousand sons since at least 5th edition, maybe even 4th...I can't remember for sure. That said...if we have a forum of thousands of users and the predominant belief among them, using laws of averages, is that a certain unit is subpar and thus not worth taking for competitive play, there's probably a lot of validity to it. If you want to be as competitive as possible, pick plague marines over TS...period, end of story. Not that me chiming in and saying it is really going to change your opinion or cause you to stop arguing this.
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Post by: Anpu42
Yes I think I done with this for a while, I am running into my normal problems.
I was hoping that I would get an enjoyable discussion on an underused unit that was more two sided.
I was also hoping to get some Tactical Discussions.
I will say this which should be taken as a complement when it came to the Mathhammer. Personally I Loath Mathhammer. I can not tell you how many threads I have abandon threads because of it. I do trust Mathhammer to a point. It is a good judge to tell you how a unit Should perform. I do though find I like to test it after I calculate it and I am usually pleasantly surprised with the results. What I Loath about Mathhammer is usually have one or two who just fill a half dozen pages with it.
None of you really did this, there was a little shown and a few of us bickered back and forth about it. I think this is when I got to emotionally involved and one you pointed it out, thank you Vladsimpaler.
i will probably bring this up again in a few months when I have had a chance to test some things. This time it should be more of a I have found and way to use them.
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Post by: Akiasura
Anpu42, you do raise some good points about math hammer not always being applicable in every situation.
The difference between statistics and luck is statistics apply to a 'population' (and by this I mean the mathematical definition, not a huge group of people) while luck applies to a person doing rolls (because unless you play 3-4 times a week for 10 years, you don't perform enough die rolls to be considered a population).
Personally, I always roll way above par for to hit rolls, while my to wound rolls tend to be so below average it's absurd. My most recent game saw 17 hits with 5 frag launchers (4/5 direct hits with one blast moving an inch. This is typical) but I only caused 4 wounds against scouts.
I'm also (in)famous for being unable to make a single tough or FnP roll to save my life (my average over 10 games is 1/24 rolls successful. Yes, I keep track).
Meanwhile, my friend can not roll to hit or wound to save his life, but frequently makes armor saves above and beyond the statistical norm. I'm talking 1/18 armor saves at 3+ failed. I can pour 50 salvo bolsters into him and only kill 3-4 guys, or fire a single blast master and do the same. This does come up when I plan how to defeat him and in my list building.
The issue with taking this to the Internet is that there are enough people here that statistics rather than luck applies. We have tens, possibly hundreds of posters and lurkers that equate to a population, so luck does need to be thrown out the window here.
That said, I have yet to see a single standard deviation ever calculated in my 20 years of gaming, but this often benefits hordes more than elite armies, since they get more dice (and thus a higher N in the equation). It's why orks, guard, and nids tend to have more skewed results, and thus more....diverse opinions about their table top performance.
TL : DR version, most of this math doesn't apply to you on a personal level and isn't calculated that well. Perfectly fine in ignoring it
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Post by: Flying Toaster
The post above sheds a lot of light onto the world of luck and mathammer that people are so fond of defending. I have seen 1 Thousand Sons fielded quite a few times and each time they have performed admirably on the battlefield. Does this mean that they don't suck? Does this mean that they are better than other units that are in the dex?
Not really, all it means is that mathematically they are inferior to other options but tactically on the table they do quite well when fielded in my area.
The unit is fine and Anpu42 should still use them if he so chooses to.
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Post by: I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly
Anpu42 wrote:
Your experiances and mine are compleatly difrent.
My Plage Marines have already Died in Droves to Walls of Plasma SPAM to my Marines before my Terminators even get close. The only thing that dies quicker is Bearzerkers.
I have had my Thousand Sons take concentrated fire from Multi-Meltas and Las-Cannons for 3 Truns befor Droping.
But there's very little difference between the 5+ FNP that plague marines get and the 4+ INV that thousand sons get. And as people have pointed out, once plague marines get cover, which they should be able to much of the time, they are even tougher against plasma and such stuff. Plague marines (and normal chaos marines) are tougher to assault with more and better attacks, defensive grenades and overwatch. The only thing they don't have is AP3 bolters. But against some armies that won't matter, and against all armies the PMs have the option to buy versatile and powerful special weapons!
Essentially you're overvaluing the AP3 guns and 4+ INV save. Even without the drawbacks of an overpriced champion and S&P, thousand sons would not be worth so much over regular chaos marines, or as much as plague marines.
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Post by: Akiasura
Possibly the biggest drawbacks of the TS are mass tanks, assaults, and 2+ saves.
They are too expensive to ignore these weaknesses, and the rest of the army must compensate. Possibly one of the best combos (and fluffy) is 3 units of havocks with MoT on a sky shield landing pad with auto cannons. This gives them a decent fire platform from which they can make enemies come to them, although this doesn't help against the more...problematic armies they face (most noticeably Tau)
Anpu42, what armies have you faced with success and which ones cause problems? My friend is using 1k sons as allies because he loves tzneetch, I'd like to hear some strategies you've developed with them.
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Post by: Vaktathi
 I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:
Essentially you're overvaluing the AP3 guns and 4+ INV save. Even without the drawbacks of an overpriced champion and S&P, thousand sons would not be worth so much over regular chaos marines, or as much as plague marines.
This is largely it. While both are nice, they're drastically over-valued. AP3 is always costed at an over-premium, particularly on non-anti-tank weapons. This is not unique to Thousand Sons, pretty much any other unit with AP3 guns such as Vespid, Inquisitorial Henchmen w/Hot Shot Lasguns, and IG stormtroopers suffer this as well, so too did Dark Reapers until recently. Hell, I play a DKoK Assault Brigade and can count on two hands the number of models where the ~50 AP3 infantry guns actually ended up doing something relevant. The 4+ Inv meanwhile is nice, but cover saves and cover save enhancements are very common, and means squad against most attacks.
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Post by: Jancoran
There was a lengthy discussion on Thousand Sons earlier.
Very few have committed whole heartedly to the army and those who have, have grown to understand its tolerances and play well with them. they hit so damn hard that even a smattering of fire from such a force is pretty mean.
What works is always more important than other considerations. While the math ells you that on an open shooting range with nothing else to consider, you might want X over Y, those battlefields simply dont happen in 40K.
In a battle where reserves weren't a part of the timing of attacks... sure, the math might say do X or Y. But thsoe are also rare.
The myriad of ways you can counter a unit without firing a shot is many and varied.
For me, I see an army of Thousand sons and I do not make the mistake of underestimating them. I'll leave that to others.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Well, I guess one would have to ask, if you're not playing a MEQ army, what threat is a Thousand Sons army? their AP3 is irrelevant, the 4+ inv is nice but they die like normal marines to most other attacks, and there's likely half as many of them. If you are playing a MEQ army, unless your plan is to trade bolter fire as opposed to engaging them with heavy weapons or CC, then even than you don't have much to worry about typically. I've never had a situation where I underestimated them because they've never really met my expectations.
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Post by: Jancoran
 Vaktathi wrote:Well, I guess one would have to ask, if you're not playing a MEQ army, what threat is a Thousand Sons army? their AP3 is irrelevant, the 4+ inv is nice but they die like normal marines to most other attacks, and there's likely half as many of them. If you are playing a MEQ army, unless your plan is to trade bolter fire as opposed to engaging them with heavy weapons or CC, then even than you don't have much to worry about typically. I've never had a situation where I underestimated them because they've never really met my expectations.
engaging them is the answer...and so the Thousand sons bring an answer to being engaged. And if they do, whats YOUR plan?
For example: rhinos and tiny throw away units, which Chaos has plenty of access to can ssimply step in the way and wait. Then what? You have no choice: get in a shooting war with the Tzeentch and get YOURSELF tied up... or.... shoot the unimportant blockade and hope neither of you gets unlucky enough that you're out in the open afterwards. Right?
So a well built Tzeentch army brings its escorts with it and forces you into a shooting contest. Poorly built ones allow you to charge them. Since we would not waste our time HERE talking about poorly built versions, what's your plan when you can't REACH them? Same problem with Broadsides. A flippant "Ill just get them in combat" means WHAT, when kroot have bubblewrapped it? Nothing.
So I cannot say that Tzeentch is the best army ever written, i can say this: you can win tournies with them. winning wil have to be a consolation prize I guess. =)
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Post by: Savageconvoy
Ok. So you're up against a "well" made Tzeentch army and get into a shooting war. You out number them because they have super expensive marines and they die to bolters and always get an invul save equivalent to good cover. That... Doesn't sound at all threatening. And needing a unit to "guard" them when their main benefit is having a good invul is kind of silly.
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Post by: Vaktathi
 Jancoran wrote:
engaging them is the answer...and so the Thousand sons bring an answer to being engaged. And if they do, whats YOUR plan?
Unfortunately, just assuming "they bring an answer" doesn't work. I wish they would work, I'd love to see more Tsons armies out there, but there's a reason we don't 
How do they bring an answer when they cost more than half again as much as their basic contemporaries that aren't much easier to kill, and lack the staying and CC power (not to mention special weapons loadout) of their similarly costed brethren? That's the issue, most of the time, they lack the points to bring sufficient answers, or simply lack certain capabilities, or both. 
For example: rhinos and tiny throw away units, which Chaos has plenty of access to can ssimply step in the way and wait.
Unless they're blocking LoS, that means nothing in regards to shooting at the TSons. I'm mainly coming at this from an IG and CSM perspective, a Rhino can only shield from so much and only takes so much fire to remove, especially in 6E. They need the Rhino to get where they need to be, if that Rhino dies before then, then that's out of the picture, and from another CSM perspective a Rhino can be manuevered around. If we're talking about ~400pts of Tsons+Cultists
and Then what? You have no choice: get in a shooting war with the Tzeentch
Here's the situation, unless playing a MEQ army and they're able to get the first volley off en-masse against a bunch of my units in the open, I've won at this point.
Yeah, if those TSons want to engage my IG gunline in a shooting war, sweet, easy win.
If they want to trade bolter fire with another MEQ army, well, again as noted, unless they're simultaneously engaging a bunch of my own units in the open, I'm probably fine with this If cover is involved then their advantage is negated and while I'll lose slightly more i have far more shots being returned plus special weapons and I can win through attrition if nothing else. If I can engage the Tsons first, then I can likely put enough hurt on them so that i survive the return volley and engage them in CC and defeat them there, as if the Tsons are at optimal range then they're also within easy assault range, and once engaged in CC they're likely done for.
If they're having to engage something like an Ork Horde, they don't have the firepower to beat back a Mob and, again, are done for.
Even if they're bubble-wrapped with a unit of cultists, cultists are not impossible to move/cut through and must keep up with the TSons (which they can't if the Tsons are in a rhino), and at that point we're talking about ~1100-1300pts between 3 units of Tsons in rhinos and 3 units of cultists that do nothing but provide bubble-wrap leaving you with relatively little for HQ, heavy support, flyers, etc, not to mention relatively little for the rest of my army to concentrate firepower upon.
and get YOURSELF tied up... or.... shoot the unimportant blockade and hope neither of you gets unlucky enough that you're out in the open afterwards. Right?
Again, this assumed the blockade is worth much or can't be worked around. Not always doable or reliable by any means. Highly situational and any muck up hurts a lot more
So a well built Tzeentch army brings its escorts with it and forces you into a shooting contest. Poorly built ones allow you to charge them. Since we would not waste our time HERE talking about poorly built versions, what's your plan when you can't REACH them?
If I can't reach them, they're probably not reaching me either, especially not immediately at optimal range. If I'm forced into a shooting contest, unless I'm being engaged simultaneously and in the open (remember, those bubble wrap units give me cover too), I'm winning by attrition if nothing else because those TSons units are basically 300pts a piece plus whatever their bubble-wrap costs.
Same problem with Broadsides. A flippant "Ill just get them in combat" means WHAT, when kroot have bubblewrapped it? Nothing.
Not the same problem at all. Broadsides don't need to be at 12" for optimal firepower employment, and can actually engage stuff beyond 24" period, thus it's infinitely easier to keep them out of combat when they have 36" or 60" guns. Nor are they scoring units that will need to be moving about to take and hold objectives. Not even comparable situations. Tsons *have* to put themselves in imminent assault threat to be at their most effective and to take and hold objectives.
So I cannot say that Tzeentch is the best army ever written, i can say this: you can win tournies with them. winning wil have to be a consolation prize I guess. =)
I will say this, I'm not trying to purposly hate on Tsons, I love their fluff and concept, but from a tabletop standpoint, I haven't faced a Tsons list yet that I didn't have an easier than average time of defeating. Lack of numbers and certain key capabilities routinely kills them. There's a reason they're basically no-shows at most competitive events.
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Post by: somerandomidiot
Vaktathi, that was a well worded, well reasoned response, and I completely agree with you. I fear it may be lost on Anpu, though, as he seems less interested in a logical, reasonable discussion and more interested in self-aggrandizing for daring to play something the "Internet" says is sub-par. Should you ever make it down to Sacramento, CA I'll gladly play you a game with a full Tzeentch Thousand Sons army, and maybe even surprise you.
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Post by: Jancoran
yup, so try a Tzeentch list that is well constructed and then have someone competnent play it against the Ig you're discussing and see what happens.
Personally, I don't play them, have faced them, have included them in my Chaos lists as accessories and they always do well at what I ask them to do. I've blown Thousand Sons off the table, literally, as well. I just didn't find this to be a function of the Thousand sons. The General was often the problem because this is more of a finesse/timing army.
And thats one of the problems with subjects like these. Skill plays a part. I could explain to you AS the game went along, what I was planning and where my mind is at, but here on a forum its difficult. I did write an extensive article on Tzeentch which I shared in the last thread and I can send it if you PM me. But I really just have to say that the Hyperbole surrounding this army build is kind of... disappointing really.
Creative types like this kind of puzzle though. So if you are a creative type, I'd start playing and testing til you find the combo that works.
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Post by: Backfire
Vaktathi wrote:
This is largely it. While both are nice, they're drastically over-valued. AP3 is always costed at an over-premium, particularly on non-anti-tank weapons. This is not unique to Thousand Sons, pretty much any other unit with AP3 guns such as Vespid, Inquisitorial Henchmen w/Hot Shot Lasguns, and IG stormtroopers suffer this as well, so too did Dark Reapers until recently.
Yeah, I noticed same thing with Vespid and Sniper Drones...AP3 is problematic, because you end up paying premium and can't spam it like normal infantry fire, but it is only worth it when facing lots of Sv3+ and if you don't, your AP matters nothing. 8 times out of 10, it's better to have "normal" infantry weapons, because against most things they work just as well and are much cheaper. Same goes for 4++, sure it's great but again if you're not facing low- AP fire, it means nothing and you still end paying for it. Most of the time, marines die to torrent fire and against it, Thousand Sons die just like regular ones.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
I play Thousand Sons (sort of). My army is usually built around Ahriman and two Thousand Son squads, with some cultists and daemon engines as back-up.
I do quite well. I enjoy assaulting with my Thousand Sons after softening the target up with rapid-firing bolters. Aspiring Sorcerers can cut through chaff like nobody's business. If I give her an axe, my Aspiring Champions even deal with Terminators. Sure, the army is small and expensive... but that just makes it more of a challenge to use.
The only thing I struggle against is non-Marines, because trying to chase down DEldar is a nightmare and Tau can do similar things.
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Post by: Jancoran
Well Huron can fix some of those problems if you want to add a second HQ.
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