Hello,
The subject. Discuss.

I find it sad that with the Newest Edition that just came out for 40k that there wasn't much progression story wise. I would have like to see something regarding the false emperor eating people, how the imperium has been handling all the bad, or even a big bad. While it kinda seems as though the Nids might kinda be that the main story stayed the same.

 Smolo82 wrote:
Hello,
The subject. Discuss.

I find it sad that with the Newest Edition that just came out for 40k that there wasn't much progression story wise. I would have like to see something regarding the false emperor eating people, how the imperium has been handling all the bad, or even a big bad. While it kinda seems as though the Nids might kinda be that the main story stayed the same.

Yes, this makes me very sad. But I can understand the whole "its a setting not a story" thing. But with the rate of codex releases, it wouldnt be hard to have just a small plot advancement every edition, right?

Not really, because I prefer 40k as a setting. If the story moves on, there's very little room for players to create their fluff that has any meaning.

I think the desire to find out how things play out hits everybody at some point. Personally I made my peace with the fact that it is a setting, not a story. Conflicts and story lines are left open-ended so the players can decide. Even major campaigns like Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade were never finished, but left in a state of open, continued war, so players can keep re-visiting them if they want.

Pretty much what curran said. All of the "ifs" and ambiguity in the setting gives a lot of freedom to players to make their own fluff or predictions. Advance the plot, and you'll probably start restricting that freedom.

In addition to what has been said above, the setting offers countless possibilities to insert interesting new events into the existing timeline. Why would you have to move beyond 999.M41 - usually presented as the pivotal battle between the Imperium and the forces of Chaos (not to mention the ongoing battles in the Armageddon Warzone) and thus fairly important as a basis for the players - when you have almost 10.000 years of history to fill?

Contrary to public perception, GW does add to the story, just not at the end but in the midst! A lot of entries in the 6E rulebook's timeline are completely new; plot hooks to be detailed in further supplements later on or to serve as inspiration for players now.

Any resolution of the conflict at Cadia can only result in three things:
- The Imperium wins and Chaos suddenly appears much less dangerous.
or
- Chaos wins and the Imperium's defense breaks down, followed by the collapse of the Imperium itself.
or
- Either side wins but nothing changes because GW chickens out the aforementioned options are too drastic a change and would make a lot of fans angry.

For many years, the 13th Black Crusade has been hyped up to become the most important battle of the era - there is no way to move on without alienating a lot of gamers either because it will have no consequences OR because the consequences are of a nature they don't agree with. Can you imagine the backlash of IG players when Cadia is overrun? The backlash of Marine or CSM players when their favourite Chapter or Legion gets destroyed? When some hero suddenly becomes unplayable because he died?
Ironically, it's the fans themselves I see as both the greatest petitioners as well as the greatest hurdle to any move beyond M41.

^this^^^^

and if I want a story, a plot and progression.....
.....there is Black Library.

It can become difficult and sometimes tedious to keep updating a setting. When AD&D did this with Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance in the 90s, it was tricky to keep up with events. Certain areas would suddenly become "off-limits", of course, that is if you wanted to keep pace with the events in Faerun or Krynn.

A progression of 40k would include what? Abbaddon's 14th crusade? A big Tyranid hive fleet invasion? The unification of the Orks? Eldar finding a homeworld?

A campaign year would be so much better than progressi g the story.

no

I am so pleased they are instead exploring all the stories that got them to this point - the Horus Heresy stuff has been a breath of fresh air for me and I hope that BL and Forge World continue their good works in this area.

Moving on is a risk - look at the changes in other systems - they get the best of both worlds here - those who like the current setting get to keep, the rest of us get loads of "new" stuff in the proceeding 10,000 years

I loved BattleTech and whilst I quite enjoyd the Clan era - the later stuff left me cold.............

Plus techncially there are already some BL novels that have bits and pieces set post 999.M41 and refer back to the "game period".

I'd enjoy some plot progression alright.

I remember seeing some fan-made fluff about the future of 40K, where Tyranids and Orks combined to become a huge threat, the imperium became completely divided (With Macragge splitting off from it completely) and Chaos winning the battle for Cadia.

It was truly interesting stuff and keeps me coming back to 40K. If I ever truly, truly believed that there was never going to be any plot progression at all (I don't) then I really don't think I'd collect it anymore.

With the recent changes in how GW conducts its business, I think there's a good chance that, at some point, we'll see some real progression (A novelisation of the Black Crusade perhaps?).

Let's see... the Emperor finally dies. Everyone expects Chaos to reign triumphant until the Emperor achieves godhood because he's able to reunite all the bits of his soul in the Warp and is all "Well, this is all quite embarrassing, isn't it?" and Lorgar's all "SEE, DAD? I TOLD YOU I WAS RIGHT! BUT YOU COULD NEVER LISTEN TO ME!" and the Sensei are all "Please to let us and the Squats out of Fluff Hell kthxbye" The Astronomicon does, however, go foomp temporarily, and a few billion psykers have sudden fatal brainsplosion headaches. The Sisters of Battle now have a more concrete explanation of all their miracles, but everyone still hates them because they don't let the Sisters Repentia wear sensible tunics and trousers. Gork and Mork try to figure out who's gonna crump the Emperor first and another Waaaagh! envelops Armageddon. The four Chaos powers also start fighting amongst themselves because the day ends in Y and they also want to be first to corrupt the Emperor. As a result all of their forces start infighting and ruining even more planets. Cegorach is all catty to him: "Oh, look who FINALLY showed up to clean out this place?" Meanwhile, all the Marine chapters are looking at their Librarians and going "Bob? You in there? Look, I know it's last minute but if you could come in on Saturday that'd be greeeeeat. And clean your brain up off the floor before you close, okay?" The Black Templars are running around planets looking for witches to smite and just finding chunky salsa everywhere. The Dark Angels and their attendant Unforgiven are all en route to the Eye of Terror to pick Cypher up now that the Emperor's returned. Since Empy's back, Lion El'Johnson is back, Luther is making sense and Cypher is now waiting patiently in a tea shop on Cadia.

All of that and you can still have an era of perpetual stagnation in warfare. The Tyranids are still eating their way through the Ultramarines' pocket empire. (Seriously, how no one has jumped down Calgar's throat after the Badab War I don't know.) The Eldar are still a doomed race, the Space Wolves are still drunk as all get out from last night, the Necrons still won't die, the Blood Angels still have their Black Rage and Red Thirst. The only real difference is now humanity has a god to protect them in the Warp itself.

And meanwhile Malal is going "Hey! I was supposed to be the Warp Power of Supreme Irony, not him!"

Its a Setting that spans the entire milkyway galaxy...any major events that happen will take a very long time to play out, the lack of any progression in some far reaching story arc is a problem..the problem is, is that somebody always has to lose, and losers don't sell models, everything will always be at 5 minutes till midnight, doom and gloom on the horizon, and all that jazz,

So pick a corner of the galaxy. make up some planets or systems, and play out your own stories, and add those threads to the tapestry of the 40k SETTING.

Fairly sure it's been said but it's worth saying again.
It's not a story.
It's a setting.

The fallout from advancing the plot would be too great. As it stands, almost every faction is on the brink of either dying out or winning. If the plot was to move beyond this point, at least one faction would have to disappear from the story or take a major tweak to their fluff and/or army structure.

No, it doesn't bother me. Furthermore, I find the idea of it bothering anyone to be strange.

40k has a setting. That's the setting you have. It would be as if we were all playing a game based around the Napoleonic wars and people were getting frustrated that the game didn't move on to american civil war or franco-prussian war battles.

I'd really like it to be a story, but the problem with stories from games is that if it is a story, then at some point, someone has got to lose a war. For a while, there could be a lot of plot advancement without anything really big happening, but once GW gets into the habit of advancing that plot, there will be that point where the umpteenth truce between alien races that hate each other or even worse, between chaos and someone else, just doesn't make any more sense, so that the war will have to be pursued to the end - that is until one side is actually wiped out.

It is one of the things that in my perception at the time killed off a good part of the Battletech fanbase in Germany: they progressed the story, a lot, and it was great fun to read that, but at some point, they wiped out Clan Smoke Jaguar. It was one of the more popular clans in my group of friends, and most of them, including me, stopped reading BT fiction and playing the game at that point.

A similar thing happened with the World-of-Darkness-setting from White Wolf: when they had the meta-plot advance to Gehenna, more than half of their customers quit. They tried coming back with a new WoD, which was actually very good and in my opinion, better than the first, but it never gained the popularity of the first one. White Wolf went down. Because they advanced the plot.

Imagine what an outrage it would be if someday, because the story demands a sacrifice, one of the major marine chapters is completely destroyed. Let's say the Space Wolves. The story advances, and they are gone. Millions of players throw their miniatures at the next available GW employee and rage-quit. And the Space Wolves would probably be one of the less problematic sacrifices, since they are "only" a variant of something bigger. Imagine the last Eldar dies, or the Tau are crushed by the Imperium.

So yeah, I'd like plot advancement, because plot-advancement is fun. But it makes things difficult.

The setting/story debate rages on.

40k obviously has a setting, but I think people would genuinely like to know what happens in certain stroy arcs...

In saying that if they revealed how that ended it might invalidate those battlefields/campaigns.

Their is plenty of time left within 40k to fit your own story or for the GW guys to add more in.

And you can't "advance the plot" without ruining the setting.

Plus, if they "advanced the plot", then they would need to make the rules of the game advance with the plot. If the plot said that all psykers were wiped out (or even all of one faction), then you'd have to rebalance the codex because you'd have to take units out of them due to the plot. GW has a hard enough time balancing things with the fluff being the setting, I can't imagine how badly they'd botch hitting a moving target if it were plot.

There is no plot, individually.

The HH plot is already over. We've seen the conclusion to Armageddon and Badab.

There are lots of individual plots that start, progress and then end. Sometimes they are revisited and expanded upon; sometimes they add new plots.

Like all of us, I wonder what would/could/should happen if they ever progressed past 11:59pm, but we all know it's a setting for us to do with as we please and not a story.

The good news is that with how rich the background is and the lengths of time dealt with on a galactic scale, there's plenty of room for individual story arcs that don't affect the the setting as a whole. I take refuge in these tales.

I fail to see how advancing the story would ruin the setting. The only way to go from the eternal war of the current minute to midnight scenario, is midnight, which is just more war, but in different places. Nothing has to change.

To answer the question: Yes, very much. :<

It would be cool to see what is around the corner but honestly, there is already so much that we do not know that they could provide or even expand upon what we already have.

The lack of story progression doesn't bother me, however the current doomsday scenario the storyline is poised at simply isn't epic enough. It needs revamped.

I'd like to see more setting details. Pick a period of 40k history post heresy and flesh it out more. Give us BL storylines, the odd campaign book. That's the best way to enhance the setting and satisfy everyone.

It bothers me a bit, because we're eternally at Christmas Eve with no Christmas.

The Golden Throne is failing, the Tyranids are about to smash into the galaxy, the Tau plot armor might fail, more psykers are popping up everywhere, a half dozen Primarchs could stumble out of their respective purgatories, NECRONS, Cypher, etc. etc.

There are so many things that could happen that would provide incredibly interesting storylines, and it seems like GW just keeps adding to the potential future storylines instead of advancing any of them.

I know it's supposed to be a setting, and I'm fine with that to an extent, but we just keep sitting on the edge of a cliff and adding more things that should push us over, except we never quite go over. I do enjoy building stories in my own little corner of the galaxy in the setting, so that's good, but it just bothers me a little, kind of like seeing an awesome TV show with a cliff hanger, and then the next episode never comes.

Don't get me wrong. Personally, I like evolving settings. For example, I dig how the universe of Battletech continues to expand into new eras of play, how new units and characters come into being, have their finest hour, and then get killed to be replaced by the next generation. It makes for a dynamic narrative and a living universe. Particularly because you don't know what will happen next, and how long your favourite guy/gal/unit will survive.

With 40k, on the other hand, I think most fans wouldn't take well to such developments. Because most of the heroes and the armies are unfortunately written as too infallible and too heroic, which is kind of ironic given the grimdark nature of the background. Yet, the fans have become used to this style of narration and expect it to continue. To make matters worse, with the 13th Black Cruasade, GW have written themselves into a corner. Without the conflict at Cadia, it would be quite possibly to just go on and have smaller campaigns elsewhere, maintaining the status quo whilst simultaneously delivering the illusion of a minimum of development. With Cadia, however, they've pretty much thrown some of the franchise's most iconic forces into a deadly arena whose nature would necessitate terrible casualties if it'd ever be resolved. I just don't think the fans could take it, as much as they're wishing for it now - likely because they still believe in the expectations I just mentioned, just focused on whatever army is their favourite, and conveniently forgetting that every other player does the same for their army.

Mr Morden wrote:I loved BattleTech and whilst I quite enjoyd the Clan era - the later stuff left me cold.............

This is a good example of the risks that come with advancing a setting (also see Skylifter's extensive post). Looking at Battletech, I see a lot of fans have different favourite eras that seemingly depend on when exactly they joined the hobby. Many of the really old veterans prefer the Post-Invasion era from the 3025s and absolutely loathe Clan stuff. Fans who joined up around the Clan invasion like the 3050s up until the Jihad but hate the following era. Me, on the other hand, I've just recently delved into this franchise, and lo and behold, I like all the eras so far. That doesn't mean that I will retain this happy attitude, however, for by now I have found my favourite factions and characters as well, and I dread what may happen to them in the future.

As I said ... expectations. As much as people like to clamour for development, many of them will be pissed if it doesn't conform to the direction they've been hoping for. Anyone remember the public outrage following Eddard Stark's death in GoT?

iproxtaco wrote:I fail to see how advancing the story would ruin the setting. The only way to go from the eternal war of the current minute to midnight scenario, is midnight, which is just more war, but in different places. Nothing has to change.

So you'd be fine with half the armies meeting on or over Cadia just being removed? Because I'd think a lot of their fans might disagree. Especially the "X wouldn't lose, they're too cool for that!" kind of fans.

PaperworkNinja wrote: The Sisters of Battle now have a more concrete explanation of all their miracles, but everyone still hates them because they don't let the Sisters Repentia wear sensible tunics and trousers.

They already have a concrete explanation, and the Repentia are not supposed to wear anything sensible.

Zond wrote:I'd like to see more setting details. Pick a period of 40k history post heresy and flesh it out more. Give us BL storylines, the odd campaign book. That's the best way to enhance the setting and satisfy everyone.

This. GW should really just repeat something like the Medusa V global campaign. Better yet, accompany it with novel and comic releases, too. They could make a whole sub-franchise out of it, if they wanted, just like they did with the Horus Heresy. The potential is there!

 iproxtaco wrote:
I fail to see how advancing the story would ruin the setting. The only way to go from the eternal war of the current minute to midnight scenario, is midnight, which is just more war, but in different places. Nothing has to change.

If nothing changes, why bother advancing the story? The setting allows for more war in different places already, considering the setting encompasses the whole galaxy and a timeline that covers 10,000 years.

 Lynata wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I fail to see how advancing the story would ruin the setting. The only way to go from the eternal war of the current minute to midnight scenario, is midnight, which is just more war, but in different places. Nothing has to change.

So you'd be fine with half the armies meeting on or over Cadia just being removed? Because I'd think a lot of their fans might disagree. Especially the "X wouldn't lose, they're too cool for that!" kind of fans.

Why would they have to be removed? What specific armies have to die in order for the story to progress? Currently, we're sitting on the precipice of several major conflicts. The only way to go from here is to start telling the story of those conflicts. There doesn't ever have to be anything decisive, but it'd be nice to actually play the game and act like my characters and armies are doing something, instead of feeling like I'm reenacting events from the past.

 iproxtaco wrote:
I fail to see how advancing the story would ruin the setting. The only way to go from the eternal war of the current minute to midnight scenario, is midnight, which is just more war, but in different places. Nothing has to change.

Because that is not advancing the plot, just changing it. People who want to advance the plot want to know what happens with the Eldar, or dose the big E finally bite it. Do Chaos finaly make advances in to the real world. Etc.

At the moment every faction is on the precipice. It is like a pile of rocks. Move one and the rest will fall. At the moment every faction is on the edge and may fall off or may pull back and grow.

Will the Eldar may die out or may re-establish themselves?
Will the the Emperors death reunite the Imperium or cause it to fracture and die?
Will the Tau rise up to take there place as a major player able to counter all the threats of the galaxy or will they be snuffed out before they make the leap that is clearly on its way?
Will the Necrons rise up to defend against the Tyranids or will they sleep until the danger has passed?
Will the Tyranids strip the galaxy clean or will one or more factions finally find a way to stop them? The Necrons may have the power if they awake and the Tau may be able to if they have time. Or will the Tyranids carry on to Terra following the beacon of the Emperor only to turn back when they notice the void dragon, or will the Emperor die before possibly then leaving the Tyranids in chaos. Is there more Tyranids on there way? Have we seen just a fraction of the fleet?
Will Dark Eldar manage to flourish in the safety of the webway, or will there ways eventually eat them up?
Will Chaos manage to make strides in to the matirum finally damaging humanity and gaining a foothold in reality or will they be pushed back and the Necrons once again begin to work to hold the warp closed?
Will the Orks... Na, feth it. The orks are going to carry on being orks what ever happens.

Etc etc.

At the moment the setting is on the edge. Everyone is balanced, and all it will take is one little nudge for the whole house to come tumbling down.

Moving the story on would be a bad idea. Better we are in a place where all factions have a chance at winning or loosing.

I Agree with the "setting" guys, mostly. Although they could advance the story and kill a few people (individual heroes like Cpt. Tycho have died, if you want to play them, your battle happens in the "past") bit by bit, it doesn't bother me much as long as there is history to explore.

There are still some ways to advance the plot without destroying the setting, if only to get us past this current cliff hanger so we can start setting up the next cliff.

Hypohthetical Plot Advancements:

Advancement: The daemon primarchs burst out of the warp and Chaos explodes beyond Cadia in the 13th Black Crusade and is now all over the place.

How it Affects YOU: Chaos Primarchs become playable (if insanely expensive) models, maybe Apoc only, maybe not. Otherwise, nothing changes. They burst PAST Cadia so you can still have your Cadian regiments and you can still have your Imperium VS Chaos or whoever battles where-ever and when-ever. Despite this being a plot advancement, the setting stays the same without destroying or restricting you in any way, only now you have the option of fielding daemon primarchs... or writing daemon primarch fanfiction. Whatever.


Advancement: Roboute heals, Lion wakes up, Salamanders find all the relics and find Vulkan, Khan comes back from the warp, Leman Russ returns with the fruit but the fruit's effects aren't immediate, etc. However, the 13th Black Crusade is in full swing and Chaos is all over the galaxy. There is no time for political upheaval and the primarchs immediately go to war against their chaos brethren. Any ideas about fixing the Imperium's current situation can wait, because right now, Chaos isn't just at the doorstep. They're in the door!

How it affects YOU: Same as above, the plot has advanced, but the setting is still just as free form as always. Only real difference is now there are loyalist primarchs you can field on the tabletop or roleplay with or whatever.


Advancement: More tyranids arrive, more necrons wake up, more orks unite under Grazgkull's banner.

How it affects YOU: ....it doesn't. .......alright, honestly besides Chaos and the loyalist primarchs, there aren't many other particularly hanging plot threads I can think of that would be interesting to advance, I guess maybe the Black Templars finally catch up to Grazgkhull but after that, it's kinda like... whatever? *shrug*


Oh, I know.

Plot Advancement: Whatever the hell is chasing the Tyrannids arrives.

How it affects YOU: New playable army!

iproxtaco wrote:Why would they have to be removed? What specific armies have to die in order for the story to progress? Currently, we're sitting on the precipice of several major conflicts. The only way to go from here is to start telling the story of those conflicts. There doesn't ever have to be anything decisive, but it'd be nice to actually play the game and act like my characters and armies are doing something, instead of feeling like I'm reenacting events from the past.

As I mentioned in the last post, I'm referring chiefly to the 13th Black Crusade. Here is a list of the armies that should, with all due respect, be threatened by annihilation. Some of those have already suffered heavy casualties on Armageddon. Or would you suggest that, miraculously, all those armies leave this biggest and most brutal clash between Imperial and Chaos forces since the Horus Heresy without so much as a scratch?
Obviously, IG regiments are at a smaller risk here in that there's many more where those came from (unless a player happens to be one of the unlucky few whose regimental number corresponds to one in the material), but Marine Chapters have only 1k troops, and a Chapter ceased to be functional when that number drops below 100.

And that's not even touching upon the issue that GW has, over the years, hyped up this conflict so much that it's nigh-impossible to resolve it without disappointing people. You can't spend a decade prattling on about how terrible this confrontation is and how it's the End Times of the Imperium and how the result would change the setting - and then proceed to resolve it without much effect on the universe as presented in the material.

It's not difficult to come up with potential results, and it's even fun to think about the different directions the setting would take from there - but I just do not believe that the fans could handle the drastic changes that would accompany this. And if there are no drastic changes, people would be disappointed by how stale everything feels. It's a lose-lose situation for GW either way. The only way to continue past M41 would be to "reboot" the End Times and write out this final confrontation entirely in favour of a more stable timeline that omits such a seemingly decisive climax.

KhornedBeef wrote:
I Agree with the "setting" guys, mostly. Although they could advance the story and kill a few people (individual heroes like Cpt. Tycho have died, if you want to play them, your battle happens in the "past") bit by bit, it doesn't bother me much as long as there is history to explore.

How would you like if your favorite character/faction got that sticker?

"Sure they're your favorite, but all the stuff they did is in the past and they have no future, so not only do they not have any impact on the story, but they will never see any updates because they are wiped out in the advanced plot."

It wasn't so much a suggestion as me pointing out, that GW already risked stepping on a small number of toes, so they might do so again. Though I'm not sure if Tycho was established before Armageddon.
Nevertheless, I'd be willing to make a few sacrifices to the plot gods, if the results is well written. Not wiping out a faction, mind you.

TiamatRoar wrote:
There are still some ways to advance the plot without destroying the setting, if only to get us past this current cliff hanger so we can start setting up the next cliff.

Hypohthetical Plot Advancements:

Advancement: The daemon primarchs burst out of the warp and Chaos explodes beyond Cadia in the 13th Black Crusade and is now all over the place.

How it Affects YOU: Chaos Primarchs become playable (if insanely expensive) models, maybe Apoc only, maybe not. Otherwise, nothing changes. They burst PAST Cadia so you can still have your Cadian regiments and you can still have your Imperium VS Chaos or whoever battles where-ever and when-ever. Despite this being a plot advancement, the setting stays the same without destroying or restricting you in any way, only now you have the option of fielding daemon primarchs... or writing daemon primarch fanfiction. Whatever.


Advancement: Roboute heals, Lion wakes up, Salamanders find all the relics and find Vulkan, Khan comes back from the warp, Leman Russ returns with the fruit but the fruit's effects aren't immediate, etc. However, the 13th Black Crusade is in full swing and Chaos is all over the galaxy. There is no time for political upheaval and the primarchs immediately go to war against their chaos brethren. Any ideas about fixing the Imperium's current situation can wait, because right now, Chaos isn't just at the doorstep. They're in the door!

How it affects YOU: Same as above, the plot has advanced, but the setting is still just as free form as always. Only real difference is now there are loyalist primarchs you can field on the tabletop or roleplay with or whatever.


Advancement: More tyranids arrive, more necrons wake up, more orks unite under Grazgkull's banner.

How it affects YOU: ....it doesn't. .......alright, honestly besides Chaos and the loyalist primarchs, there aren't many other particularly hanging plot threads I can think of that would be interesting to advance, I guess maybe the Black Templars finally catch up to Grazgkhull but after that, it's kinda like... whatever? *shrug*


Oh, I know.

Plot Advancement: Whatever the hell is chasing the Tyrannids arrives.

How it affects YOU: New playable army!

And all of those tip the balance in favor of that faction. That faction suddenly has what it has been chasing for many thousands of years.

You also have to understand the background of the fluff. Take the Primarchs for example. Them waking up. They are the 40k equivalent of King Arther or Gog and Magog. "When we reach our darkest hour our saviour will awaken".

The chaos example, that is chaos busting though and going beyond Cadia. The whole point of Cadia is it is a "last line of deference" situation. They hold the eye of terror in check, keeping a lid on it, but once it explodes it will tip over in to an unstoppable tide.

Tyrannids, Necrons, orks... The whole point at the moment is they are a threat that is just about in check. The Imprium is stretched to the limit at the moment. If adding more has no effect then whats the point? "More orks band together. Noone notices..."

We don't know anything is chasing Tyrannids. Thats part of the point in that. They may be just a plague of locusts going to strip the galaxy bare or they may be being chased. Who knows. If they are being chased we may be saved if we can just hold out... Or it may be much worse...

KhornedBeef wrote:
It wasn't so much a suggestion as me pointing out, that GW already risked stepping on a small number of toes, so they might do so again. Though I'm not sure if Tycho was established before Armageddon.
Nevertheless, I'd be willing to make a few sacrifices to the plot gods, if the results is well written. Not wiping out a faction, mind you.

So you want meaningful, well-written plot advancement without any real consequences (no wiping out factions or major characters)? That's pretty much having your cake and eating it, too.

If you try to advance the plot with no stakes or nothing 'really' changing, just moving around, then how much have you actually advanced the plot? It does not work well for 40k, because you have a setting where any significant change is going to massively shake up the balance of power, and will subsequently trickle down and impact all of the other factions. Let's just do this little example:

Let's say our plot advancement has Chaos taking an advantage in the 13th Black Crusade. What all is affected?

First of all, Chaos is stronger, naturally.
This in turn weakens the Imperium, lowers Marine numbers, reduces Guard and so on.
With more resources going into the Crusade, other threats such as Orks, Tyranids, what have you, get stronger, further pressing the Imperium.
This adds to the spiral of weakening Imperium and strengthening Chaos/Xenos.

Until you get to a point where it is impossible for the Imperium to survive at all. This is not some weird plot twist, this is just how the story is balanced. You cannot make a significant story change without there being an equally significant change in the balance of power. Change the balance of power, and the sheer size of it will mean that the faction is either crushed, or shielded in the very worst kind of plot armor.

So you want meaningful, well-written plot advancement without any real consequences (no wiping out factions or major characters)? That's pretty much having your cake and eating it, too.

*Sigh* probably true. Heck, I'd let them kill Logan Grimnar *ducks quickly away from thrown barrel of fenrisian ale strapped with nuclear warheads*, but with all this build-up, it would still feel anti-climactic.

 PaperworkNinja wrote:
Let's see... the Emperor finally dies. Everyone expects Chaos to reign triumphant until the Emperor achieves godhood because he's able to reunite all the bits of his soul in the Warp and is all "Well, this is all quite embarrassing, isn't it?" and Lorgar's all "SEE, DAD? I TOLD YOU I WAS RIGHT! BUT YOU COULD NEVER LISTEN TO ME!" and the Sensei are all "Please to let us and the Squats out of Fluff Hell kthxbye" The Astronomicon does, however, go foomp temporarily, and a few billion psykers have sudden fatal brainsplosion headaches. The Sisters of Battle now have a more concrete explanation of all their miracles, but everyone still hates them because they don't let the Sisters Repentia wear sensible tunics and trousers. Gork and Mork try to figure out who's gonna crump the Emperor first and another Waaaagh! envelops Armageddon. The four Chaos powers also start fighting amongst themselves because the day ends in Y and they also want to be first to corrupt the Emperor. As a result all of their forces start infighting and ruining even more planets. Cegorach is all catty to him: "Oh, look who FINALLY showed up to clean out this place?" Meanwhile, all the Marine chapters are looking at their Librarians and going "Bob? You in there? Look, I know it's last minute but if you could come in on Saturday that'd be greeeeeat. And clean your brain up off the floor before you close, okay?" The Black Templars are running around planets looking for witches to smite and just finding chunky salsa everywhere. The Dark Angels and their attendant Unforgiven are all en route to the Eye of Terror to pick Cypher up now that the Emperor's returned. Since Empy's back, Lion El'Johnson is back, Luther is making sense and Cypher is now waiting patiently in a tea shop on Cadia.

All of that and you can still have an era of perpetual stagnation in warfare. The Tyranids are still eating their way through the Ultramarines' pocket empire. (Seriously, how no one has jumped down Calgar's throat after the Badab War I don't know.) The Eldar are still a doomed race, the Space Wolves are still drunk as all get out from last night, the Necrons still won't die, the Blood Angels still have their Black Rage and Red Thirst. The only real difference is now humanity has a god to protect them in the Warp itself.

And meanwhile Malal is going "Hey! I was supposed to be the Warp Power of Supreme Irony, not him!"

Thank you for this. I just imagined Cypher sitting like a boss on Cadia sipping some tea.

The lack of progression doesn't bother me at all. 40k has a setting. If I want to know what happens at the end of the 13th black crusade then I will just start a campaign at my local FLGS with my friends and play out what happens. Add to the background and let us play out the "new" stuff on our own.

 Ironwill13791 wrote:


Thank you for this. I just imagined Cypher sitting like a boss on Cadia sipping some tea.

He'll also be wearing a monocle and saying "Hmm, yes, quite."

 Steve steveson wrote:


And all of those tip the balance in favor of that faction. That faction suddenly has what it has been chasing for many thousands of years.

The Imperium's been primarily chasing the primarchs for thousands of years? That's news to me. It's not like the primarchs are the Emperor, here. Although even the Emperor awakening wouldn't solve the Imperiums' current problems or give the Imperium a secure future.

You also have to understand the background of the fluff. Take the Primarchs for example. Them waking up. They are the 40k equivalent of King Arther or Gog and Magog. "When we reach our darkest hour our saviour will awaken".

No, the primarchs are just the sons of the 40k equivalent of King Arthur. Although again, so what? Even if the Emperor himself hypothetically awoke and was magically healed, his power is only so limited. An Ork Warboss (even if a really big one) can still kill him, for crying out loud. Not that I support the idea of the Emperor awakening because there are too many other valid theories, possibilities, and interpretations that would be invalidated by such an event, but the Primarchs on the other hand don't really have that caveat.

The chaos example, that is chaos busting though and going beyond Cadia. The whole point of Cadia is it is a "last line of deference" situation.

Cadia's the first line of defense, not the last.

They hold the eye of terror in check, keeping a lid on it, but once it explodes it will tip over in to an unstoppable tide.

Propagandic nonsense. Chaos will certainly be able to launch attacks much easier on the Imperium by that point but unstoppable? And even if they are, just chuck a ton of necrons and tyrannids at them and stalement is re-assumed. The only way for Chaos to be unstoppable is for the pylons to explode and the Eye of Terror itself envelop the galaxy per Abaddon's plan, and that's not what I'm suggesting here.

Tyrannids, Necrons, orks... The whole point at the moment is they are a threat that is just about in check. The Imprium is stretched to the limit at the moment. If adding more has no effect then whats the point? "More orks band together. Noone notices..."

Precisely. There is no point in terms of the setting itself. The plot advances, the setting stays the same. Except now players have even MORE options to deal with when crafting armies and stories (the primarchs, daemon primarchs, battles of bigger scale, etc).

We don't know anything is chasing Tyrannids. Thats part of the point in that. They may be just a plague of locusts going to strip the galaxy bare or they may be being chased. Who knows. If they are being chased we may be saved if we can just hold out... Or it may be much worse...

Obviously. That's why it's a plot advancement for it to be revealed that something is in fact chasing them, and what that thing is. And voila, plot advancement + new faction without destroying the setting.



Really, your retort is a mess. You're trying to argue my suggestions destroy the setting yet it's pointless if they don't destroy the setting. Stop worshipping Nurgle and accept that sometimes you can have a little change without destroying the current order of balance to an unrecognizable level. The setting wasn't destroyed when the Necrons and Tyrannids were introduced and it won't be destroyed if the Primarchs and Daemon Primarchs are reintroduced. In fact, the setting is already slowly reintroducing them. We actually have CONFIRMATION now that Lion is fully healed just waiting for the signal, and there are "reports of daemon primarchs spotted in the Black Crusade", for example (although I suppose if you really wanted to be technical, the daemon primarchs have always been around anyways and don't need reintroducing. Besides Fulgrim and Lorgar, I suppose).

I like it as a setting rather than a complete narrative so that the games I play can be "mini-novellas" into M.41 I don't like it when drastic changes in the setting are made to advance the story and don't need to know every detail of all the things that have been hinted at.

No it dosen't, way becouse it been set at the end days and we been told time will not advance, you really get annoyed be thing you all ready been told will never happen. Then your playing the wrong game. Now do you really want them to write "and with a wimper mankind ends.", becouse that is the end story, welcoming the Grimdark. No one need to be squated.

 Lynata wrote:
When some hero suddenly becomes unplayable because he died?

well, in fairness death company tycho's death is documented in his entry in the BA codex. This made me feel a bit strange at first, playing a dead charachter, but i sort of went star wars on it and told my self that the warhammer 40k universe is a parallel one set a long long time ago, therefore all the characters are dead, the time just isn't told yet, and that the setting specifically centres on the 41st millennium.

It makes be a bit sad that i probably wont see the story unfold, but i am glad GW held the story line as is, for the reasons above, i like the idea that it is a setting, not a story, instead they should continue beefing out the fluff we are up to.

What are peoples' opinions on the 13th Black Crusade world-wide campaign, actually? That thing actually did advance the plot to the point where later editions actually rewinded things a bit. If WH40k had plot advancement, theretically one way to really milk it would be worldwide campaigns like that.

Did GW stop doing such things because it wasn't popular? Because it painted them into a corner? Or simply because it was too much work for what it did and GW is really lazy these days?

Noir wrote:
No it dosen't, way becouse it been set at the end days and we been told time will not advance, you really get annoyed be thing you all ready been told will never happen. Then your playing the wrong game. Now do you really want them to write "and with a wimper mankind ends.", becouse that is the end story, welcoming the Grimdark. No one need to be squated.

When were we ever told time will not advance? Do you have a citation for this from a GW employee?

Or am I misinterpreting your post? It's a rather... hard to understand post.

I too am with the setting crowd. I'm kind of sad I missed playing in events like the 13th Black Crusade, but I think holding these huge battles as events is the right way to go, not just telling us what happens next. We need another campaign!

TiamatRoar wrote:
What are peoples' opinions on the 13th Black Crusade world-wide campaign, actually? That thing actually did advance the plot to the point where later editions actually rewinded things a bit. If WH40k had plot advancement, theretically one way to really milk it would be worldwide campaigns like that.

Did GW stop doing such things because it wasn't popular? Because it painted them into a corner? Or simply because it was too much work for what it did and GW is really lazy these days?

Noir wrote:
No it dosen't, way becouse it been set at the end days and we been told time will not advance, you really get annoyed be thing you all ready been told will never happen. Then your playing the wrong game. Now do you really want them to write "and with a wimper mankind ends.", becouse that is the end story, welcoming the Grimdark. No one need to be squated.

When were we ever told time will not advance? Do you have a citation for this from a GW employee?

Or am I misinterpreting your post? It's a rather... hard to understand post.

Way back in the day when GW was still a games company. And the Black Crusade is not a advancement it is a Recon. The story has never moved forward, it has just been rewriten. Small but important difference.

 Sheokronath wrote:
I too am with the setting crowd. I'm kind of sad I missed playing in events like the 13th Black Crusade, but I think holding these huge battles as events is the right way to go, not just telling us what happens next. We need another campaign!

^THIS!^

I'd love some new fluff, half the fun of this hobby is in the reading. For me at least.

No, because the current status quo is the best situation in 40k right now. If they progressed the story continuously, a lot of dumb BS would happen. Emperor would come back then die again, Primarchs would come back then disappear again, etc.. A lot of the mystery and suspense in the 40k setting would be screwed with.

I think you could advance the setting in a fairly balanced manner.

As was mentioned, Cadia isn't the last line of defense. It is certainly one of the most important, but it's not the last.

There are ways to balance the story out.
- Chaos gets stronger, has a foothold on Cadia
- More Necrons wake up
- More Tyranids arrive
- More orks unite
etc.

Sure, the current story in the Imperium would basically mean that the Imperium would be in major decline at that point, but there are some ways to escape that. There are dozens of random heroes and heroic entities bouncing around the Imperium, everything from the Legion of the Damned to six missing/injured Primarchs.

What if all those bad things happened, but simultaneously something major changed, like a Primarch coming back/waking up and redoing the codex to account for the growing threat? Maybe Rowboat increases the SM cap from 1K to 5K, and over 100 or so years the number of Marines quintuples.

There's that quote that if the Tyranids arrived in force, every man, woman, and child would need to be conscripted to fight that force. Something similar already happened with the Eldar, there was mention that many civilian paths were abandoned in favor of warrior paths, so it's not completely out of the question that the Imperium could increase their military strength.

It would require very careful writing, but it could be done.

As for losing special characters, yes, a lot of people would get annoyed if some big names disappeared, but GW has killed people in the past, even going so far as to say Eldrad died (sort of) during the 13th Black Crusade (and then promptly turned the clock back).

If you wanted to, maybe make a tradeoff. The Chapter that loses their big name guy gets their primarch back, or something similar. I imagine if Azrael died a lot of DA players would be angry, but they'd probably chill out quite a bit if Johnson woke up to take over. Same thing with Rowboat. If Calgar got eaten by Tyranids, I imagine a lot of people would be sad, but they'd get over it if the Primarch showed back up.

I hear a fair few complaints about this, but I'm not bothered.

40k isn't a story, or a TV series, it's a wargame and, to be honest, there can't really be much story progression in a wargame. Most significant story progressions will involve some things being wiped out, making them unplayable in the game. People complain about lack of story progression but I reckon a lot of it is hypocrisy in way. Consider this: next edition of 40k, GW write into the fluff that the Space Wolves, for instance, have been caught up in a colossal Tyranid invasion and have been nearly wipe out. They write in the rulebook or update the FAQ to say that no Space Wolf army may contain more than 20 models, to represent the fact that only a few remain. There'd be a huge uproar and everyone would complain about how crap GW is and how crap their story progression is.

As much as people scorn GW's "forging a narrative", this is a good thing. There's tons of background about the 40k universe and you're given this background and told "Here you go, work with this." You then play games, using the background as foundation for your games. So, do you want a massive Tyranid Invasion to converge on Fenris? That's fine, the 40k background allows you to do this and, if you wanted to, you could organise a huge campaign to see if the Tyranids do indeed manage to wipe out the Space Wolf chapter. The lack of story progression is what allows you to do this. Again, say GW wrote into the fluff that the Eldar joined with the Tau for the greater good. Now, you can't really play Eldar vs Tau without it not being fluffy, it doesn't work as well and just feels a bit weird, like having to play Space Marines vs Space Marines and having to use the word "traitor" to justify your games within the background of the games.

40K is a setting AND a story. There sheet amount of fluff and lore makes this a whole lot more than just a game setting. That must be obvious by now.

Also, advancing the story changes little. It doesn't have to turn into WH50K. Just for the love of the Emperor, can it not be 999.M41 anymore. Please.

Before reading this thread I was strongly in the "advance the story" camp, but now I'm not so sure. I do think it would make a lot of people mad if things didn't go their way, and I don't think the codex fluff writers are up to the task of doing it in a way that minimizes the people it pisses off while still making narrative sense. I wouldn't want to see entire armies destroyed, but I certainly wouldn't mind characters dying. I'm an Eldar player, but I'd be ok with Eldrad dying (for real this time) and being removed from the game. It would give them an opportunity to add some cool new characters who step up.

Regardless of what happens in the rulebooks or codexes, I think Black Library should step up and give us something. Whether that's a new series a la HH, or some sort of future-history textbook-esque thing just telling how it all goes down. Regardless of whether it affects the game or not, I really do want to know who wins at Cadia, what happens to the balance of power in the galaxy, etc. and I think there are a lot of good storytelling opportunities there.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

Regardless of what happens in the rulebooks or codexes, I think Black Library should step up and give us something. Whether that's a new series a la HH, or some sort of future-history textbook-esque thing just telling how it all goes down. Regardless of whether it affects the game or not, I really do want to know who wins at Cadia, what happens to the balance of power in the galaxy, etc. and I think there are a lot of good storytelling opportunities there.

But do you really want that?

Think about it real hard.

"Oh, so that is your Cadian Regiment/Chaos Warband there? Too bad they don't count in the fluff, huh?"

It's more a matter of things feeling stagnant. And, yes, I know... this is supposed to feel stagnant because grimdark. That said, advancing a few years or even a decade wouldn't destroy our precious little game universe. In fact, it would freshen it up and create new avenues for new stories to be written/told by the players.

I, for one, am tired of 999.M41. Move it along.

Oh, and Cadia, Imperium wins... because Emperor

 curran12 wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

Regardless of what happens in the rulebooks or codexes, I think Black Library should step up and give us something. Whether that's a new series a la HH, or some sort of future-history textbook-esque thing just telling how it all goes down. Regardless of whether it affects the game or not, I really do want to know who wins at Cadia, what happens to the balance of power in the galaxy, etc. and I think there are a lot of good storytelling opportunities there.

But do you really want that?

Think about it real hard.

"Oh, so that is your Cadian Regiment/Chaos Warband there? Too bad they don't count in the fluff, huh?"

Yeah actually, I do! If they do a novel series it would mean that they are definitely not going to advance the plot in the rulebooks and codexes, so this would be a branching-off point, where what happens in the novels and what happens in the game are now two totally separate things that don't matter in regards to one another. It would become just another Black Library story. That way people who say that the game is a setting can keep playing at one minute to midnight or in the 10k years of setting since the Heresy, and people who want some resolution get it without it interfering with the game.

FatherTed wrote:well, in fairness death company tycho's death is documented in his entry in the BA codex. This made me feel a bit strange at first, playing a dead charachter, but i sort of went star wars on it and told my self that the warhammer 40k universe is a parallel one set a long long time ago, therefore all the characters are dead, the time just isn't told yet, and that the setting specifically centres on the 41st millennium.

Oh yeah, but with Tycho you already knew. There were also SoB characters like that - Canoness "Eats Tyranids for Breakfast" Praxedes, for example. Even Celestine was said to have been annihilated in the 3E Codex; her apparent return in the 5E book seems like a retcon due to that.

But don't you think these things might have impacted the playerbase more if the players wouldn't know they are playing a doomed character from the start?
Granted, I'm not sure people are really attached to characters like Calgar or Creed or Grimnar or Dante, given that (unlike with Battletech) they don't really have much of a presence outside a few fluff blurbs. But what if we expand this to entire armies?

FatherTed wrote:i like the idea that it is a setting, not a story, instead they should continue beefing out the fluff we are up to.

Word. There are still so many millennia to fill with cool stuff!

DogofWar1 wrote:As was mentioned, Cadia isn't the last line of defense. It is certainly one of the most important, but it's not the last.

Oh, I don't actually think Cadia would be the problem. Just the armies gathering there for the big grinder.

Of course, one solution could be that GW advances the clock into "the next age" far enough so that those armies which have suffered the worst casualties had sufficient time to regain their strength. Having nobody annihilated entirely might feel a little anti-climatic, but it could be a tolerable tradeoff. The real problem that would follow then is ... what's left as the next big thing? When Cadia is resolved, it could only be topped by another battle for Terra. Which would bring us to the same situation we are in yet again. And regardless of how you resolve Terra, what could possibly follow after that?

Unlike Battletech, which can afford to jump from era to era because it is more "toned down" and as such will not sport build-ups anywhere near what happened with the 13th Black Crusade, 40k has always been a franchise that attempted to base the description of its entire universe on Epic with a capital E. This situation here merely shows the downsides to this approach. And it is an issue that the MMO industry is struggling with as well. When you're constantly trying to one-up yourself, you will eventually get to the point where you build a bubble. For 40k, this bubble is called "The Times of Ending".

MandalorynOranj wrote:Yeah actually, I do! If they do a novel series it would mean that they are definitely not going to advance the plot in the rulebooks and codexes, so this would be a branching-off point, where what happens in the novels and what happens in the game are now two totally separate things that don't matter in regards to one another. It would become just another Black Library story. That way people who say that the game is a setting can keep playing at one minute to midnight or in the 10k years of setting since the Heresy, and people who want some resolution get it without it interfering with the game.

I don't think people would take it that way. Right now, Cadia - like Armageddon - is a setting whose outcome can be decided on your table. As soon as a novel series starts to flesh it out for you, lots of people will suddenly feel as if their games "don't count" because an official product is commonly held in higher regard.
And it matters little that GW is already presenting all those novels already existing as mere possibilities twisted by legend and half-truth - a perceived 90% of the fans take it all at face value, including the vaunted Lexicanum wiki.

 iproxtaco wrote:

Will the Eldar may die out or may re-establish themselves? If it wasn't for Slaanesh...
Will the the Emperors death reunite the Imperium or cause it to fracture and die?Fracture. He's the only thing standing between FTL and sub-light travel.
Will the Tau rise up to take there place as a major player able to counter all the threats of the galaxy or will they be snuffed out before they make the leap that is clearly on its way? Possibly.
Will the Necrons rise up to defend against the Tyranids or will they sleep until the danger has passed?Rise up and kick ass. That's their mission - Szarekh will wake as many as possible and mow down the 'Nids.
Will the Tyranids strip the galaxy clean or will one or more factions finally find a way to stop them? The Necrons may have the power if they awake and the Tau may be able to if they have time. Or will the Tyranids carry on to Terra following the beacon of the Emperor only to turn back when they notice the void dragon, or will the Emperor die before possibly then leaving the Tyranids in chaos. Is there more Tyranids on there way? Have we seen just a fraction of the fleet? Yes. No to the void dragon (why would they? It makes no sense for them to just stop because a dragon that was supposedly beaten by an uber psyker in ancient plate armor defeated it. Yes. Yes.
Will Dark Eldar manage to flourish in the safety of the webway, or will there ways eventually eat them up? Gobble gobble gobble burp, said Slaanesh
Will Chaos manage to make strides in to the matirum finally damaging humanity and gaining a foothold in reality or will they be pushed back and the Necrons once again begin to work to hold the warp closed? Probably.
Will the Orks... Na, feth it. The orks are going to carry on being orks what ever happens.

It is a 'setting' however it would be nice if the story progressed a bit. They don't necessarily have to do this through codices and editions, but they can do it through canon with Black Library.

 Lynata wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:Yeah actually, I do! If they do a novel series it would mean that they are definitely not going to advance the plot in the rulebooks and codexes, so this would be a branching-off point, where what happens in the novels and what happens in the game are now two totally separate things that don't matter in regards to one another. It would become just another Black Library story. That way people who say that the game is a setting can keep playing at one minute to midnight or in the 10k years of setting since the Heresy, and people who want some resolution get it without it interfering with the game.

I don't think people would take it that way. Right now, Cadia - like Armageddon - is a setting whose outcome can be decided on your table. As soon as a novel series starts to flesh it out for you, lots of people will suddenly feel as if their games "don't count" because an official product is commonly held in higher regard.
And it matters little that GW is already presenting all those novels already existing as mere possibilities twisted by legend and half-truth - a perceived 90% of the fans take it all at face value, including the vaunted Lexicanum wiki.

That's kind of a silly reason not to do it. Nobody's games "count" for anything beyond having fun or an outcome in a campaign or tournament. Just because a novel says something happens doesn't mean it invalidates the games anyone plays. Just because Ragnar lives through the Space Wolf series doesn't mean that anybody's game where he dies on the table is any less of a game than one where he lives. If they can put together a good story, they should do it. That's why Black Library was formed, so they could write stories without them impacting the game. Otherwise everything would just be in the codexes and rulebooks.

Setting advancement is not necessarily a good thing; lots of times the setting progresses, but people don't like the direction things take, or simply know where the old way is.

To use another game example, let's pick on Battletech, went through several iterations of history (through 3150 or so), but the part everyone knows and loves is around 3050 (Clan invasions, etc.)

Or how about Hollywood, which is rebooting pretty much everything to return to square 1 in trying to keep the most well-known, iconic elements.

If the story advanced, we'd probably end up with a setting reboot eventually.

Besides, the galaxy is pretty huge, it's very easy to introduce new fluff/story elements (here's a hive fleet/ork warlord/IG coommissar we hadn't mentioned before!)

Many decades have gone into making the setting that is current as of today. yes, progression would be nice, but GW has found itself a nice happy place where they can just rehash previous battles just mentioned in the previous releases. Keep in mind that GW has gone from being more of a hobbyists/ gamers company to being a money makers... which is fine as far as investors go. White Dwarf is a perfect example of the new direction GW has taken.
I remember when white dwarf would have tutorial on how to make terrain out of non GW stuff, rewarding creatvity (like a landspeeder made out of a roll on deoderant stick case)

40k isn't a story, it's a setting.

That said, no, I'm not concerned they haven't advanced the setting. There's a massive wealth of history to dig into, as well as exploring things happening in the current timeline, without needing to advance it.

In fact, advancing it is only going to upset people because there can be no real change. The Tyranids can't advance into the galaxy and eat it, the Imperium can't wipe the Tau off the galactic map, and the Eldar can never die, all because these sort of sweeping changes that the customer base what to happen with an advancing setting would invalidate miniature ranges. So without doing that, you wind up with the setting advancing, nothing actually happening, and thus no reason to advance it.

 -Loki- wrote:
40k isn't a story, it's a setting.

That said, no, I'm not concerned they haven't advanced the setting. There's a massive wealth of history to dig into, as well as exploring things happening in the current timeline, without needing to advance it.

In fact, advancing it is only going to upset people because there can be no real change. The Tyranids can't advance into the galaxy and eat it, the Imperium can't wipe the Tau off the galactic map, and the Eldar can never die, all because these sort of sweeping changes that the customer base what to happen with an advancing setting would invalidate miniature ranges. So without doing that, you wind up with the setting advancing, nothing actually happening, and thus no reason to advance it.

But that's the great thing about Black Library. They can do all this without invalidating anything. Hell, they could even present it as a bunch of different possible futures and release several books with different outcomes for the galaxy, like one where Chaos wins at Cadia, comes in and destroys the Imperium, one where the Imperium pushes them back, etc. Personally I'd rather just see one series where they pick a direction and stick with it, but if they really didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings that could be an option.

MandalorynOranj wrote:That's kind of a silly reason not to do it. Nobody's games "count" for anything beyond having fun or an outcome in a campaign or tournament. Just because a novel says something happens doesn't mean it invalidates the games anyone plays. Just because Ragnar lives through the Space Wolf series doesn't mean that anybody's game where he dies on the table is any less of a game than one where he lives. If they can put together a good story, they should do it. That's why Black Library was formed, so they could write stories without them impacting the game. Otherwise everything would just be in the codexes and rulebooks. [...]

But that's the great thing about Black Library. They can do all this without invalidating anything. Hell, they could even present it as a bunch of different possible futures and release several books with different outcomes for the galaxy, like one where Chaos wins at Cadia, comes in and destroys the Imperium, one where the Imperium pushes them back, etc. Personally I'd rather just see one series where they pick a direction and stick with it, but if they really didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings that could be an option.

I get what you're saying, and GW does want the Black Library to be perceived that way already, but this isn't how the majority of gamers think about it. Lexicanum for example would go crazy if they're confronted with that sort of material as it'd force them to acknowledge the way they've been handling things for years (regardless of what the authors of those books have publicly stated) has been wrong, or the staff would break out into arguments about which sources are "true" and which are "just possibilities".

It's a psychological thing, and GW's current approach is the safest one. You won't lose gamers just because the setting's timeline doesn't move forward, but you do risk losing them when it moves forward in a way that doesn't suit their expectations. A lot of fans really like their armies and the (imho) oftentimes exaggerated descriptions of their awesomeness.

ComTrav wrote:To use another game example, let's pick on Battletech, went through several iterations of history (through 3150 or so), but the part everyone knows and loves is around 3050 (Clan invasions, etc.)

Funny enough, I know more players that hate the Clan invasion than ones who like it.
It just depends on when someone has joined the Battletech franchise - but I could easily see the 40k fanbase splitting up into such sub-groups as well. In a way, it's already happening with all those people focused on the Horus Heresy, except that one doesn't really invalidate anything.

I just hated the ugly clan mechs, and the loss of all the lovely 3025 designs "borrowed from robotech and other anime", the Mad-3R Marauder was my absolute fav, followed closely by the warhammer..ahh the magic 70-75 ton range.

But anyway, advancement of the setting in a meaningful way leads to sour grapes for somebody, and advancement in pointless or "alternate timeline" ways is equally useless, just make your own histories with friends and write up some fluff, blog it post it here, or what not..I personally don't want some hamfisted BL moron writing some half baked and juvenile outcomes for my favorite races or armies..just leave the future to the players.

To reiterate, I actually like Battletech having such a dynamic setting (though I am currently experiencing the downsides of it by witnessing the fate of Katana Tormark, a character I've grown to like a lot). It's refreshing and adds a sense of drama to the narration, not to mention that you never know what will happen next.

I just think the success or failure of such an approach depends heavily on how the IP is already handled, and I don't see it working for 40k at all. Warhammer is too focused on being EPIC and constantly looking for ways to increase the level of "cool" in its fluff. Things like Draigo happen specifically because someone wanted to add to the fluff rather than deepen what is already there (small but important difference).

When you have gamers being turned away from Battletech because of the Clan invasion or the Jihad, I can only imagine the backlash that would follow if GW were to pull something like that.

40k's lack of consistency across the material only deepens the issue. With Battletech, you at least have the various books tying into each other perfectly, regardless of whether they're a rulebook or a novel. In contrast, 40k is a mess of individual interpretations, and "making the setting your own" is lauded as an important feature of the franchise. Writing how the timeline continues goes against this idea. It is up to the playerbase to decide whether they truly want this (with all the strings attached), and up to GW to listen. And then it'd likely require a reboot just to bring things into order.

The timeline was moving forward steadily right up til the 13th Black Crusade, at a rate of about 1 game year per real life year. This didn't destroy the setting and there is no reason why a similar slow crawl forward would suddenly destroy the setting. People keep acting as if moving the timeline forward were some dangerous never before tried thing, when in reality, it was the standard case until the last few editions. People also make the error of equating timeline advancement with stupendous overturning change such as the Emperor dying or Primarchs returning, when nothing of the sort needs to happen. The slow steady incremental advancement of the timeline in past editions did not involve this, and there is no reason rolling over into M42 could not do this incremental movement.

Not only did the setting not explode when the timeline moved forward in the past, but the advancement allowed for the advancement of individual character stories, even though the larger universe stayed largely status quo. For example, only when there was movement was Tycho able to evolve as a character, from a generic BA captain, to being disfigured as a result of being felled by a Weirdboy in a battle report, to then the masked Tycho, and finally to his death. Similarly, Yarrick developed through his defeat on Golgotha (an Epic Squat/Imperial vs. Ork battle report), heightening the rivalry between him and Ghazghkull. A lot of the background which gets taken for granted today did not spring up unchanging and set in stone, but developed in gradual steps as a result of timeline movement. Some people might question what is the point of incremental advancement if the larger picture is not radically changed, and the answer is it allows for individual stories to change and progress.

There have already been mentions in a couple of BL books, such as Cadian Blood, which take place in M42, and the Imperium hasn't fallen apart. In truth, even if GW had not wanted to radically upset the setting, it could have easily incorporated the results of the Eye of Terror campaign while still effectively maintaining the status quo. There were hints of this with mentions in the subsequent Space Marine and Tau Codex of the Tau border being stripped of Imperial forces to reinforce the Cadian Gate, resulting in the burst of Tau expansion. This reflected exactly what happened in the campaign itself which saw Imperial players ignoring the Tau front. If GW had wanted to they could have had Abaddon break out of the Gate successfully, then be bogged down before reaching Terra due to Imperial reinforcements from elsewhere, yet this still weakening the Imperium as a whole due to other factions taking advantage of the weaknesses exposed elsewhere. Even if Cadia had been written as fallen, it wouldn't have meant the end of the Cadian line. Creed and the Cadians could have been written as gearing up for a campaign to retake their homeworld. In fact, there are again mentions of this in the 13th Black Crusade BL publication, in which Creed calls upon Cadian regiments to return to contested Cadia and fight to free it from Abaddon. The quest to reclaim their home is also alluded to in the BL novel Cadian Blood which actually takes place in approximately 003.M42 (from the textual clues within the book itself). Just as Yarrick's character gained some depth and character development from what was in reality a solid pasting in a GW battle report, Creed and the Cadians could gain more depth through surviving defeat and adversity.

Also not every faction has ten thousand years of history to play around with, which is why simply limiting things to the Imperium's past is not good as it leaves these players out permanently. The Tau were not a technological race until recently. When they were first encountered by the Imperium 6000 years ago they were stone age hunters, which is hardly suitable for a 40K game. The Tyranids did not really arrive on the scene til Behemoth. The Necrons did not really become more active until recently. Sure one can try to handwave it as an isolated tomb world or a splinter fleet that conveniently disappears again, but then you also relegate these to effectively never making any impact whatsoever on the background if they are forced to somehow be forgotten about or be made to go inactive again (so that the Imperium can be surprised when the Necrons or Tyranids really show up in late M41). Players usually like to play their armies as what their armies actually are, not handwaved "stand-in" armies or have deus ex machina negate any impact they might make on background.

The current static background creates problems with expansion of the armies. For example, the Tau have only been active and technological for a short period of time. Some of their weapons in their Codex are recent additions, such as the rail rifle. This creates problems for GW if more additions are added in future editions, as ever more stuff gets crammed into a narrow unchanging window of time. One thing GW has done is try to retcon stuff further back, such as the Tau's Custodian class carrier ship, but that only goes so far because it still runs into the barrier of when the Tau actually became a technological spacefaring race, and also creates problems with continuity. This is because the Tau are explicitly described as having inferior space forces in the Damocles Crusade, and the Custodian was part of a Tau naval expansion and modernization as a result of shortcomings uncovered during that Crusade. Retcon things too far back and you overturn the reason for the Custodian's existence. Don't retcon enough and you run into the barrier of the Damocles Crusade as the earliest time when one can even think about a Custodian class carrier existing, even if just on the drawing board. It also strains ever more suspension of disbelief if the Tau are shown as taking over more worlds or sectors given the small size of their empire and their limited resources.

Constrained by the existing timeline, the background of the Tau and certain other races is inherently limited to the last few centuries, something that might not be apparent for Imperial only players. Retcon has its limits and ultimately strains suspension of disbelief or creates more conflict with existing background. The only solution lies in one early M3 leader's catchphrase, "Forward". Having things in eternal stasis for edition after edition will cost GW players over the long run as with any product line in whatever industry that doesn't adapt and change.

In some limited instances, yes, there could be some descriptions of advancement. Especially the Tau, because they are to be honest a speck in the grand scheme of things. If they tripled the size of their empire the Imperium might not even notice for a hundred years. Or a new plot twist involving a specific character that doesn't actually affect the overall setting. GW actually does do those things occasionally; small advances or retcons in individual storylines to make codexes interesting.

Other than that though, the game is intentionally balanced on the edge of disaster for the Imperium such that almost any battle a player can think of could be occurring at or near the "current" year. This is honestly an important part of the game as it gives players unlimited freedom to play out the future as they see it. Any overall advancement in the game setting would just result in the exact same balance by necessity. What, you thought "eternal war" was just a tagline?

I disagree with the notion that moving forward while keeping the factions relatively the same would be pointless.

People act like the 13th Black Crusade has to end with some major players dying or being destroyed, but that's not exactly true. You want the conflict to seem really intense, but not kill off the Dark Angels or any of the other big names in the 13th BC of 3rd WoA?

Make up a bunch of chapter names, and say they perished in totality. Here, I'll make up a bunch:
Exalted Fists
Silver Swords
Flying Sharks
Vorpal Wolverines
Sanctified Slayers

5,000 marines, poof, dead. 5 chapters gone. Sufficiently large conflict, no? Add in that the rest of the chapters lost a few hundred each and you've got a body count in the high thousands for the Imperium's finest.

Same thing with IG regiments, you've got a few million of those lying around, go ahead and off a thousand or so regiments if you need to between 13th BC and 3rd War of Armageddon.

Keep the big names alive, like a few Cadian regiments, SW, DA, etc., but the conflict could be made sufficiently epic and impressive moving forward.

Sure, GW would likely write the end result so that things were still in stalemate, but that's fine. You could advance the story, tie up some loose ends elsewhere (BA conflict maybe gets resolved), add some more fluff, character development, and faction development for groups like Tau and Necrons.

 Smolo82 wrote:
Hello,
The subject. Discuss.

I find it sad that with the Newest Edition that just came out for 40k that there wasn't much progression story wise. I would have like to see something regarding the false emperor eating people, how the imperium has been handling all the bad, or even a big bad. While it kinda seems as though the Nids might kinda be that the main story stayed the same.

not at all. The story is set up in such a way that it cannot really progress and it need not progress. No one wants their favorite characters to die, they favorite chapters to turn traitor or be destroyed.

DogofWar1 wrote:
Make up a bunch of chapter names, and say they perished in totality. Here, I'll make up a bunch:
Exalted Fists
Silver Swords
Flying Sharks
Vorpal Wolverines
Sanctified Slayers

Now I want the Flying Sharks and Vorpal Wolverines to be real things...

DogofWar1 wrote:
I disagree with the notion that moving forward while keeping the factions relatively the same would be pointless.

People act like the 13th Black Crusade has to end with some major players dying or being destroyed, but that's not exactly true. You want the conflict to seem really intense, but not kill off the Dark Angels or any of the other big names in the 13th BC of 3rd WoA?

Make up a bunch of chapter names, and say they perished in totality. Here, I'll make up a bunch:
Exalted Fists
Silver Swords
Flying Sharks
Vorpal Wolverines
Sanctified Slayers

5,000 marines, poof, dead. 5 chapters gone. Sufficiently large conflict, no? Add in that the rest of the chapters lost a few hundred each and you've got a body count in the high thousands for the Imperium's finest.

How is this story advancement? You've just made up something completely new and said it died. You've just added to the setting.

What WOULD be story advancement is if you wrote in the fluff one edition that there was a chapter called the Vorpal Wolverines, and then you wrote in the next edition that they'd died out.

 The Shadow wrote:

How is this story advancement? You've just made up something completely new and said it died. You've just added to the setting.

What WOULD be story advancement is if you wrote in the fluff one edition that there was a chapter called the Vorpal Wolverines, and then you wrote in the next edition that they'd died out.

It'd be story advancement in that you'd resolve the 13th BC or 3rd WoA, or at least move them forward beyond their current stalemate.

The point I was making was in response to a lot of people saying that factions or groups within the game would be destroyed, lose, etc., and that it would anger players. After all, if you said every Cadian regiment was destroyed, I imagine a not insignificant group of IG players would be annoyed, or if the DA were destroyed, I imagine many DA players would riot. And then the point was made that if casualties didn't happen, it would result in a not sufficiently epic battle and result.

The solution I offered was that you move the story forward in terms of the 13th BC or 3rd WoA, and then destroy a bunch of groups that aren't vital to the fluff. That way, everyone is happy in that their models aren't invalidated, the result of the conflict was sufficiently epic, and the story moves forward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

Now I want the Flying Sharks and Vorpal Wolverines to be real things...

Well too bad, they're dead now. Abbadon and Ghahzgkull got them respectively.

But you run into the same thing I've been banging on about, DogofWar, that's not significant change. It's name dropping and utterly weightless in terms of supporting the plot.

It is incredibly LOUSY writing. It is just as bad as some homebrew fluff where somebody's personal new Tyranid invasion kills 15 unnamed chapters of Space Marines. It means nothing, it carries nothing and it ultimately DOES nothing.

He's not saying that killing those Chapters would be all that would happen. I think what he's getting at is, say, at Cadia, Chaos breaks through and now has a bigger foothold in the galaxy. Many Imperial planets are now threatened, etc, etc. Lots of Chapters and regiments are dead, it just so happens that they aren't the main playable ones. Chaos is still more powerful than they were, but the Dark Angels/Cadians/Ulthwe are still alive, maybe took heavy casualties, but are still alive.

However, I think I'd kind of like to see a couple major characters killed off. It would change things up and give them a chance to write in new characters instead of rehashing the same ones with every codex.

See my earlier post on the balance of power.

Filling it with the literary equivalent of packing peanuts does not change that.

DogofWar1 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

How is this story advancement? You've just made up something completely new and said it died. You've just added to the setting.

What WOULD be story advancement is if you wrote in the fluff one edition that there was a chapter called the Vorpal Wolverines, and then you wrote in the next edition that they'd died out.

It'd be story advancement in that you'd resolve the 13th BC or 3rd WoA, or at least move them forward beyond their current stalemate.

The point I was making was in response to a lot of people saying that factions or groups within the game would be destroyed, lose, etc., and that it would anger players. After all, if you said every Cadian regiment was destroyed, I imagine a not insignificant group of IG players would be annoyed, or if the DA were destroyed, I imagine many DA players would riot. And then the point was made that if casualties didn't happen, it would result in a not sufficiently epic battle and result.

The solution I offered was that you move the story forward in terms of the 13th BC or 3rd WoA, and then destroy a bunch of groups that aren't vital to the fluff. That way, everyone is happy in that their models aren't invalidated, the result of the conflict was sufficiently epic, and the story moves forward.

Except that GW already walled itself in with the 13th in the last Chaos dex. It states that this is the point the previous ones were building to and that it will be the decisive push. Saying just some random Chapter got destroyed isnt very good story advancement. Youre just leaving Chaos players more Failbaddon jokes and removing them as one of the major threats. They already retconned the victory the Eye of Terror campaign achieved, doing what you propose is just kicking Chaos players while their down. Another meaningless and hollow 'victory' for Chaos, without consequences for the Imperium. Saying one faction lost on a battlefield like Armageddon or Cadia is a big step. Victory for Chaos cant be achieved without sacking the Cadian gate, but that would dissapoint IG players. Result: no story advancement beyond the point which they have build up as one of the most pivotal moments for Chaos and the Imperium. Same could be said for places like Octarius and Armageddon.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
He's not saying that killing those Chapters would be all that would happen. I think what he's getting at is, say, at Cadia, Chaos breaks through and now has a bigger foothold in the galaxy. Many Imperial planets are now threatened, etc, etc. Lots of Chapters and regiments are dead, it just so happens that they aren't the main playable ones. Chaos is still more powerful than they were, but the Dark Angels/Cadians/Ulthwe are still alive, maybe took heavy casualties, but are still alive.

However, I think I'd kind of like to see a couple major characters killed off. It would change things up and give them a chance to write in new characters instead of rehashing the same ones with every codex.

I'm kind of torn on this. I want to see an advancement of story but some people are right, if you take something out that could upset some people and could move people away from the game. But what was suggested a few post up is what FW does all the time. They make up new chapters just so Necrons have a moon to crash into a planet to kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

How is this story advancement? You've just made up something completely new and said it died. You've just added to the setting.

What WOULD be story advancement is if you wrote in the fluff one edition that there was a chapter called the Vorpal Wolverines, and then you wrote in the next edition that they'd died out.

It'd be story advancement in that you'd resolve the 13th BC or 3rd WoA, or at least move them forward beyond their current stalemate.

The point I was making was in response to a lot of people saying that factions or groups within the game would be destroyed, lose, etc., and that it would anger players. After all, if you said every Cadian regiment was destroyed, I imagine a not insignificant group of IG players would be annoyed, or if the DA were destroyed, I imagine many DA players would riot. And then the point was made that if casualties didn't happen, it would result in a not sufficiently epic battle and result.

The solution I offered was that you move the story forward in terms of the 13th BC or 3rd WoA, and then destroy a bunch of groups that aren't vital to the fluff. That way, everyone is happy in that their models aren't invalidated, the result of the conflict was sufficiently epic, and the story moves forward.

Except that GW already walled itself in with the 13th in the last Chaos dex. It states that this is the point the previous ones were building to and that it will be the decisive push. Saying just some random Chapter got destroyed isnt very good story advancement. Youre just leaving Chaos players more Failbaddon jokes and removing them as one of the major threats. They already retconned the victory the Eye of Terror campaign achieved, doing what you propose is just kicking Chaos players while their down. Another meaningless and hollow 'victory' for Chaos, without consequences for the Imperium. Saying one faction lost on a battlefield like Armageddon or Cadia is a big step. Victory for Chaos cant be achieved without sacking the Cadian gate, but that would dissapoint IG players. Result: no story advancement beyond the point which they have build up as one of the most pivotal moments for Chaos and the Imperium. Same could be said for places like Octarius and Armageddon.

Well you can say Chaos has taken the gate and now the guard have a reason to take their planet back. But i'm bias against cadia.

 Deacis657 wrote:
Well you can say Chaos has taken the gate and now the guard have a reason to take their planet back. But i'm bias against cadia.

This would be my biggest fear actually. The tiny advancement this would bring. Cadia is still the flagship IG planet for GW. Meaning it cant be under Chaos control long, so a counter attack in a few years. Off course we cant have the Cadians lose right? Unless GW wants to scrap the Cadian line, not likely but most IG fans would be most dissapointed and maybe switch armies if they used Cadians. But on the other hand, we cant have Chaos possibly lose right? They just got there, if they dont win after already having taken Cadia its never going to happen for them. So we end up with the stalemate, or pissing off a player base from 2 of the more popular armies.

Off course GW could do another campaign and retcon it afterwards, at least it would be a bit of fun again.

Edit: GW's story fluff is like a dog chasing its own tail, pointless, but it doesnt offend anyone watching it do it.

DogofWar1 wrote:
I disagree with the notion that moving forward while keeping the factions relatively the same would be pointless.

People act like the 13th Black Crusade has to end with some major players dying or being destroyed, but that's not exactly true. You want the conflict to seem really intense, but not kill off the Dark Angels or any of the other big names in the 13th BC of 3rd WoA?

Make up a bunch of chapter names, and say they perished in totality. Here, I'll make up a bunch:
Exalted Fists
Silver Swords
Flying Sharks
Vorpal Wolverines
Sanctified Slayers

5,000 marines, poof, dead. 5 chapters gone. Sufficiently large conflict, no? Add in that the rest of the chapters lost a few hundred each and you've got a body count in the high thousands for the Imperium's finest.

Same thing with IG regiments, you've got a few million of those lying around, go ahead and off a thousand or so regiments if you need to between 13th BC and 3rd War of Armageddon.

Keep the big names alive, like a few Cadian regiments, SW, DA, etc., but the conflict could be made sufficiently epic and impressive moving forward.

Sure, GW would likely write the end result so that things were still in stalemate, but that's fine. You could advance the story, tie up some loose ends elsewhere (BA conflict maybe gets resolved), add some more fluff, character development, and faction development for groups like Tau and Necrons.

That's how it's been for 25 years. Planets are lost, planets are gained. People die, new heroes rise. This hasn't actually moved the story forward at all, it's just shuffling names around.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Deacis657 wrote:
Well you can say Chaos has taken the gate and now the guard have a reason to take their planet back. But i'm bias against cadia.

This would be my biggest fear actually. The tiny advancement this would bring. Cadia is still the flagship IG planet for GW. Meaning it cant be under Chaos control long, so a counter attack in a few years. Off course we cant have the Cadians lose right? Unless GW wants to scrap the Cadian line, not likely but most IG fans would be most dissapointed and maybe switch armies if they used Cadians. But on the other hand, we cant have Chaos possibly lose right? They just got there, if they dont win after already having taken Cadia its never going to happen for them. So we end up with the stalemate, or pissing off a player base from 2 of the more popular armies.

Off course GW could do another campaign and retcon it afterwards, at least it would be a bit of fun again.

Edit: GW's fluff is like a dog chasing its own tail, pointless, but it doesnt offend anyone watching it do it.

But that's what keeps happening with Armageddon, those poor poor Steel legion..... The green skins keep coming back. Just show that IG push back. If Cadia is lost theres nothing to say that There arnt surviving legions of of cadians and that they dont take a new planet to start NEW CADIA.... In hopes of one day taking back their home planet. Win win in my eyes.

 Deacis657 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Deacis657 wrote:
Well you can say Chaos has taken the gate and now the guard have a reason to take their planet back. But i'm bias against cadia.

This would be my biggest fear actually. The tiny advancement this would bring. Cadia is still the flagship IG planet for GW. Meaning it cant be under Chaos control long, so a counter attack in a few years. Off course we cant have the Cadians lose right? Unless GW wants to scrap the Cadian line, not likely but most IG fans would be most dissapointed and maybe switch armies if they used Cadians. But on the other hand, we cant have Chaos possibly lose right? They just got there, if they dont win after already having taken Cadia its never going to happen for them. So we end up with the stalemate, or pissing off a player base from 2 of the more popular armies.

Off course GW could do another campaign and retcon it afterwards, at least it would be a bit of fun again.

Edit: GW's fluff is like a dog chasing its own tail, pointless, but it doesnt offend anyone watching it do it.

But that's what keeps happening with Armageddon, those poor poor Steel legion..... The green skins keep coming back. Just show that IG push back. If Cadia is lost theres nothing to say that There arnt surviving legions of of cadians and that they dont take a new planet to start NEW CADIA.... In hopes of one day taking back their home planet. Win win in my eyes.

Im sorry, I should have been a little bit more clear. If Chaos breaks trough the Cadian gate it will be a massacre. At least according to the latest Chaos dex. Having them stopped after Cadia is just a loss for Chaos. Chaos has to hit hard and fast, if the Imperium gets the chance to start pushing back its already over, they have numbers on their side. For Chaos players this would just be chalked up as another failed Black Crusade, one of the biggest ones yet, also failling to clear the Cadian gate again. IG players might come to terms with losing Cadia and getting Cadia 2.0, but many will also still be dissapointed. Its a lose-lose situation for both sides. If this would happen you could just scale Chaos down to a minor power, the 13th was the greatest yet, if they cant now will they ever be able? Now Chaos is just a minor power like the Tau, needing to wait for a huge Ork Waaagh or Nid invasion to draw away enough forces to make it further.

003.M42: Tyranid scouts make it to Catachan, and are promptly eaten. The Hive Fleet veers away in terror.

 curran12 wrote:
See my earlier post on the balance of power.

Filling it with the literary equivalent of packing peanuts does not change that.

It might be packing peanuts, since you'd basically just be shuffling worlds around, but it could make for some quite interesting battles.

No reason not to explore Cadians being forced to abandon Cadia, and then fighting to get it back, or the conflict on Baal, or the battle for Armageddon.

Sure, ultimately, the story in the grand scheme of the galaxy doesn't move, the planet would change hands then likely switch back a few game years later, but we can get some awesome and heroic stories out of it. Who doesn't want to read about Dante fighting Tyranids on Baal, or Azrael fighting Chaos Lords on Cadia, or about the giant naval battles that will undoubtedly happen, or Sammael fighting Night Lords jump infantry while on his jetbike?

They might be packing peanuts in the grand scheme of things, but they're darn awesome packing peanuts.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Now Chaos is just a minor power like the Tau, needing to wait for a huge Ork Waaagh or Nid invasion to draw away enough forces to make it further.

Now see, this gives me an idea. Let the Imperium win. Have Chaos get pushed back into the Eye. No major characters or Legions have to be killed, but have the Crusade fail. Have Chaos fade a little bit and have other threats like the Necrons and Tyranids step up more as the big bads. Have the Tau expand a little. Give Chaos an edition out of the sun. The armies will still play the same because not every battle is fought as part of the Crusade. Then, in another edition or so, do exactly what you just said. Have the Imperium be distracted by a big Nid or Cron or Ork attack, and then Abaddon comes back with 14, and this is the one that breaks through. Maybe he comes through the Maelstrom or something this time. Boom, major advances to the story, no armies invalidated. Sure, some people might get butthurt about their favorite faction losing, but in the grand scheme of the game, things don't change, conflicts just get moved around.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Now Chaos is just a minor power like the Tau, needing to wait for a huge Ork Waaagh or Nid invasion to draw away enough forces to make it further.

Now see, this gives me an idea. Let the Imperium win. Have Chaos get pushed back into the Eye. No major characters or Legions have to be killed, but have the Crusade fail. Have Chaos fade a little bit and have other threats like the Necrons and Tyranids step up more as the big bads. Have the Tau expand a little. Give Chaos an edition out of the sun. The armies will still play the same because not every battle is fought as part of the Crusade. Then, in another edition or so, do exactly what you just said. Have the Imperium be distracted by a big Nid or Cron or Ork attack, and then Abaddon comes back with 14, and this is the one that breaks through. Maybe he comes through the Maelstrom or something this time. Boom, major advances to the story, no armies invalidated. Sure, some people might get butthurt about their favorite faction losing, but in the grand scheme of the game, things don't change, conflicts just get moved around.

But this is a major advance. Implementing this would mean the Imperium loses a significant chunk of its manpower and territory. Great, they pushed back Chaos, while stripping other sectors of their defences to do it. These worlds will fall very quickly (to nid/cron/ork) before the forces at Cadia are redeployed and suffer severe casualties again after those inflicted on and around Cadia. Now we have a significant chunk of Imperial manpower which is being killed off in wars of attrition, in which it isnt the only army with that advantage. Now we have another Armageddon scale war (or even larger), pulling in forces.

Now Abbadon comes out of the woodworks again. Assuming he isnt a complete donkey-cave (still not so sure ), he will most likely destroy all the chapters that could threaten his 'rear', like the Dark Angels. While the Imperium has to divide its forces again, but not before Abbadon also captures quite an amount of sectors. In the end this fluff kills the Imperium's side. The Imperium may say they have unlimited manpower, but they arent going to win against 2 Armageddon scaled wars and another Black Crusade with reduced forces. Think about it, the forces on Armageddon alone could most likely eleminate the Tau as a serious faction. The Imperium not having done so already means they already cant spare the manpower on such a scale (even though they say its not a problem). The strain from world and manpower loss this fluff would put on the Imperium would basicly make it game over for the 40K setting. The Imperium is done for, segmentum Solar and Obscurus will have lost a disastrous amount of its fleets. Now 40k hangs in the balance, implementing this would push the Imperium over the edge and end the cliffhanger they have created, will or will they not barely hold on?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
But this is a major advance. Implementing this would mean the Imperium loses a significant chunk of its manpower and territory. Great, they pushed back Chaos, while stripping other sectors of their defences to do it. These worlds will fall very quickly (to nid/cron/ork) before the forces at Cadia are redeployed and suffer severe casualties again after those inflicted on and around Cadia. Now we have a significant chunk of Imperial manpower which is being killed off in wars of attrition, in which it isnt the only army with that advantage. Now we have another Armageddon scale war (or even larger), pulling in forces.

Now Abbadon comes out of the woodworks again. Assuming he isnt a complete donkey-cave (still not so sure ), he will most likely destroy all the chapters that could threaten his 'rear', like the Dark Angels. While the Imperium has to divide its forces again, but not before Abbadon also captures quite an amount of sectors. In the end this fluff kills the Imperium's side. The Imperium may say they have unlimited manpower, but they arent going to win against 2 Armageddon scaled wars and another Black Crusade with reduced forces. Think about it, the forces on Armageddon alone could most likely eleminate the Tau as a serious faction. The Imperium not having done so already means they already cant spare the manpower on such a scale (even though they say its not a problem). The strain from world and manpower loss this fluff would put on the Imperium would basicly make it game over for the 40K setting. The Imperium is done for, segmentum Solar and Obscurus will have lost a disastrous amount of its fleets. Now 40k hangs in the balance, implementing this would push the Imperium over the edge and end the cliffhanger they have created, will or will they not barely hold on?

Yes, the Imperium will be at a disadvantage here, what I'm saying is that it's ok for a faction to be at a disadvantage. I can think of two fixes off the top of my head to keep the Imperium from being destroyed, though. One: at least one Primarch comes back. Two: make things a little less Imperium-centric. Maybe after the 13th Black Crusade fails, the Imperium actually gets a bit of a breather as, say, a Hive Fleet comes into contact with a massive Waaugh! and creates another Armaggedon, but one that the Imperium isn't involved in. Let the Tau advance for a while until they can start taking part in galactic events, too. Maybe when Abbadon comes back, he comes up against massed Xenos opposition. Not to say that the Imperium isn't involved in any conflicts at this time, just that not everything in the galaxy is attacking them and only them.

As long as they keep exploring new bits of history instead of reliving old bits (see: horus heresy), I don't mind.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Yes, the Imperium will be at a disadvantage here, what I'm saying is that it's ok for a faction to be at a disadvantage. I can think of two fixes off the top of my head to keep the Imperium from being destroyed, though. One: at least one Primarch comes back. Two: make things a little less Imperium-centric. Maybe after the 13th Black Crusade fails, the Imperium actually gets a bit of a breather as, say, a Hive Fleet comes into contact with a massive Waaugh! and creates another Armaggedon, but one that the Imperium isn't involved in. Let the Tau advance for a while until they can start taking part in galactic events, too. Maybe when Abbadon comes back, he comes up against massed Xenos opposition. Not to say that the Imperium isn't involved in any conflicts at this time, just that not everything in the galaxy is attacking them and only them.

But putting the Imperium at such a disadvantage would ruin the 40K setting, which revolves around the Imperium. If youre really taking it this way, its clear that in the endgame the Imperium will lose. Thats story progression at the cost of one of the most popular factions. Just check this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/546676.page, 56% of the votes in this poll are Imperial (counting CSM as part of the Imperium centric game really) and only 40% Xenos. Thats quite a significant player base to potentially upset. Look at the uproar lesser pieces of fluff caused around this forum for less popular factions. You are making the story progress at the cost of the slight majority of the armies played. Also on the hive fleet and waagh part, check out Octarius http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Octarius_War#.UhVZQJKpqfU, which will also end badly for the Imperium no matter who wins. Wh40K is about Mankind, so making it less man-centric would result in a different game. On the point of the Primarch returning, that wouldnt help at all in this new fluff. Abbadon is trying to expand the Eye of Terror, meaning we potentially have a whole bunch of Deamon-Primarch coming out to play, and seeing how it ended for Guilleman/Dorn/Manus fighting for the returned Primarch might not be such a good idea. Xenos wouldnt be that much of a problem, seeing how Abaddon bought off the only real Xenos threat which then turned into the Green Krusade. You have to think of a way to preserve the cliffhanger while advancing the story and that is really difficult with GW having put themselves up against the wall with all the impending doom wailing in the books.

Those are all good points, and the only response I have is that presumably a better writer/storyteller than I would be doing this, who could make it work. Also that I'd be just as happy/happier with this as Black Library novels, where it doesn't matter who they piss off, nobody's going to stop playing the game over a novel not connected to the game itself.

The thing about the Imperium being at a disadvantage is, it's already at one.

Heck, it's already doomed, if the Imperium maintains the status quo. It's just a matter of when.

Chaos spilling forward is going to happen sooner or later, I mean, isn't there fluff about more psykers, and thus more daemonic invasions, popping up around the galaxy at an increasing rate?

Then of course the Crons are eventually going to awake en masse.

And the Nids, of course they've got their SuperMega Hive Fleet rolling in sometime within the next 100 years or so.

And then there's possibly the thing chasing the Tyranids, which knowing the Imperium's luck is not friendly.

And that's dependent on the Golden Throne working long enough for all that to happen.

Barring a bunch of Primarchs coming back, or the Emperor dying and then reviving, the Imperium is already at a huge disadvantage, it's just a matter of how long it takes for those disadvantages to go from speculative and anticipated to real tactical and strategic disadvantages.

What this means, IMO, is that if they want to advance the clock a bit and make things even WORSE for the Imperium, that's fine, since it's going to get worse sooner or later anyway.

My DIY chapter, btw, will still be chilling on the Eastern Fringe sipping pina coladas while punching Orks and Tau.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Those are all good points, and the only response I have is that presumably a better writer/storyteller than I would be doing this, who could make it work. Also that I'd be just as happy/happier with this as Black Library novels, where it doesn't matter who they piss off, nobody's going to stop playing the game over a novel not connected to the game itself.

I I like the idea of BL novels doing that That way we could always argue if we accept it as true or not, while still reading the general direction they would move in. They could finally anwser so many questions in a way that isnt binding and could still be altered.
Also if you enjoy reading fan-fiction, LordLucan's 50k and 60k fluff is very good and enjoyable for story advancement. http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51806&page=1 (50K: The Shape of the Nightmare to come) and http://www.thebolthole.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=231&sid=ced58eb75c8ae357d11da12f40ea8369 (60K: The Age of Dusk).

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Those are all good points, and the only response I have is that presumably a better writer/storyteller than I would be doing this, who could make it work. Also that I'd be just as happy/happier with this as Black Library novels, where it doesn't matter who they piss off, nobody's going to stop playing the game over a novel not connected to the game itself.

I I like the idea of BL novels doing that That way we could always argue if we accept it as true or not, while still reading the general direction they would move in. They could finally anwser so many questions in a way that isnt binding and could still be altered.
Also if you enjoy reading fan-fiction, LordLucan's 50k and 60k fluff is very good and enjoyable for story advancement. http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51806&page=1 (50K: The Shape of the Nightmare to come) and http://www.thebolthole.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=231&sid=ced58eb75c8ae357d11da12f40ea8369 (60K: The Age of Dusk).

Cool, I'll check those out! I remember a while ago reading Rise of the Tau, which was kind of hacky at parts but overall pretty fun. I never got to the end though, at some point there wasn't any more on Bolter and Chainsword and I couldn't find the remainder out there anywhere.

DogofWar1 wrote:
The thing about the Imperium being at a disadvantage is, it's already at one.

Heck, it's already doomed, if the Imperium maintains the status quo. It's just a matter of when.

Chaos spilling forward is going to happen sooner or later, I mean, isn't there fluff about more psykers, and thus more daemonic invasions, popping up around the galaxy at an increasing rate?

Then of course the Crons are eventually going to awake en masse.

And the Nids, of course they've got their SuperMega Hive Fleet rolling in sometime within the next 100 years or so.

And then there's possibly the thing chasing the Tyranids, which knowing the Imperium's luck is not friendly.

And that's dependent on the Golden Throne working long enough for all that to happen.

Barring a bunch of Primarchs coming back, or the Emperor dying and then reviving, the Imperium is already at a huge disadvantage, it's just a matter of how long it takes for those disadvantages to go from speculative and anticipated to real tactical and strategic disadvantages.

What this means, IMO, is that if they want to advance the clock a bit and make things even WORSE for the Imperium, that's fine, since it's going to get worse sooner or later anyway.

My DIY chapter, btw, will still be chilling on the Eastern Fringe sipping pina coladas while punching Orks and Tau.

The point is that they cant do it in any significant way. The Imperium is backed up against a wall, its do or die. For now the Imperium is still holding on and expanding slowly (like a snail). All the doom and gloom is highly overrated so far. The Imperium is still the mightiest force around holding of the Orks, Chaos and the Tyranids to an extent, doing so for over 10K years in the first two cases. Letting Chaos win the Cadian Gate means the Imperium lost, just look up what Abbadon's plan is for that place. 40K is more at the end of the beginning, now significant threats have emerged that challenge Imperial dominance (Tyranids, Necron). Advancing it further would make it the beginning of the end so to speak, if even the previous managable threats start rampaging about.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

The point is that they cant do it in any significant way. The Imperium is backed up against a wall, its do or die. For now the Imperium is still holding on and expanding slowly (like a snail). All the doom and gloom is highly overrated so far. The Imperium is still the mightiest force around holding of the Orks, Chaos and the Tyranids to an extent, doing so for over 10K years in the first two cases. Letting Chaos win the Cadian Gate means the Imperium lost, just look up what Abbadon's plan is for that place. 40K is more at the end of the beginning, now significant threats have emerged that challenge Imperial dominance (Tyranids, Necron). Advancing it further would make it the beginning of the end so to speak, if even the previous managable threats start rampaging about.

A bunch of fluff keeps referring to the "Time of Ending" and "Wolftime" and all sorts of Ragnarok-ish events happening in the near future, so I would argue we're closer to the beginning of the end than the end of the beginning.

DogofWar1 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

The point is that they cant do it in any significant way. The Imperium is backed up against a wall, its do or die. For now the Imperium is still holding on and expanding slowly (like a snail). All the doom and gloom is highly overrated so far. The Imperium is still the mightiest force around holding of the Orks, Chaos and the Tyranids to an extent, doing so for over 10K years in the first two cases. Letting Chaos win the Cadian Gate means the Imperium lost, just look up what Abbadon's plan is for that place. 40K is more at the end of the beginning, now significant threats have emerged that challenge Imperial dominance (Tyranids, Necron). Advancing it further would make it the beginning of the end so to speak, if even the previous managable threats start rampaging about.

A bunch of fluff keeps referring to the "Time of Ending" and "Wolftime" and all sorts of Ragnarok-ish events happening in the near future, so I would argue we're closer to the beginning of the end than the end of the beginning.

They may refer to it anyway they want, but the have no solid grasp on certain aspects, of which this is one of. ''Time of Ending'', ''Wolftime''? Quite vague if you ask me. They really want me to believe that its right near the apocalypse? Lets check off some points. The Imperium has been fighting the Orks and Chaos for over 10K years, during which they have also suffered massive infighting. The largest Ork Waagh ever also happened during this time (M32). The Imperium is as united as possible, no fake pretenders or Vandires of that scale. They are still fighting off Chaos and the Orks, which havent presented such a large threat as in M32/Horus Heresy, not even with Armageddon/Cadia. The Tyranids and Necron have only been arriving for a couple of centuries, which in the timeframe of 10K years is a drop in the ocean. The Imperium still has the power to press on for millenia to come (depending on the speed of both Necron and Tyranids), sure they might start to struggle, but they will survive at least. Wolftime is far to vague a term, final battle? For who and against which enemy is that? Chaos, Tyranids, Orks or even some whole new threat we havent even heard about?

In light of the vagueness of the terms like ''darkest hour'' and ''time of ending'' is all very nice, but it doesnt mean a thing. Darkest hour? Sure, we have just learned a super race of evil omnom creatures will arrive sometime in the future (no idea when, no tendrils other than vanguard forces and who knows how far they are spread out), its probably the bleakest outlook on the future so far, hence ''darkest hour''. Even if the 13th BC succeeded, which even after the Eye of Terror campaign didnt really happen, they would still need hunderds of years or even more to get to Terra (not even the rest of the Imperium, which is throwing its forces at Terra). In that light the ''Time of Ending'' could just as easily refer to the fact that the time of the Imperium maintaining the status quo for the last 10K years is slowly slipping away, the end of the beginning, which has dominantly been the age of the Imperium of Man for the last 10k years. But now that time is ending, or even better worded would be the ''Time of Ending''.

The Wolftime's got nothing on the Rhana Dandra, I'd trust the Eldar to know how it'll all end over the Wolves any day .

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
The Wolftime's got nothing on the Rhana Dandra, I'd trust the Eldar to know how it'll all end over the Wolves any day .

Seeing what already happened to the Eldar without starting the Rhana Dandra I dont put a lot of faith in the Imperial cries about doom

 -Loki- wrote:
40k isn't a story, it's a setting.

Exactly. The "fluff" is a skeletal framework for battles between cartoon characters.

Besides, why would anyone want the story to move forward? Every story GW tries to tell is awful, lol. And the one time they tried to let the fans dictate the story, there was rampant cheating and people trying to game the system and influence the results.

Ultimately, the fluff is irrelevant. It's a giant universe of thousands upon thousands of worlds. At no point will they run out of places for different colors of Space Marines to fight different kinds of bad guys. And if they do, they have ten thousand years of "history" to talk about places where different colors of Space Marines fought different kinds of bad guys.

Personally, I liked the setting the way it used to be, before they Over-Grimdarked. But it isn't like the changes GW made to the fluff changed the way the game would be played.

I personally do find it a bit frustrating that there's been little to no progression... There's a lot of people saying that progressing the story would ruin the fluff or creativity of the players but I disagree.

I think a fair comparison would be to World of Warcraft. I've been a big fan of the series since WC2, and they've had some MAJOR plot points resolve themselves, and some major characters storylines be resolved, and it hasn't really ended the world, it's not like its all roses now that the lich king is gone ( thought about soon spoilers but eff it, it's been long enough).

The setting is established, people will fight regardless, move the story forward already...

Both yes and no. One, I enjoy the setting letting you go into practically any part of the story and make some sort of a difference. It is satisfying to know there is a world where the armies are still at least slightly balanced. Going too far either chaos, nids, or tyranids will rip apart the galaxy or all three at once crippling the imperium in pretty much ever yway possible. Whilst dramatic and a final stand, it also means that imperium goes from holding the line but crumbling to whelp we are lost time for one last bravado. At the same time, it is irritating that almost nothing significant ever happens. ONe will feel their victories and losses mean nothing when... well... nothing ever happens. A vast pool that is both deep and shallow at the same time with a thousand gaping holes threatening to swallow you up.

You know what I would love? Realtime plot advancement.

A lot of people here are discussing if the plot advances, x occurs, but they seem to be assuming a significant time jump; decades, centuries even. The Imperium, based on its enormity alone, will not fall in a year, a century, or even a millenia. If we were to see a semi-realtime advancement to the plot, done with concurrent events and community involvement (HA!, not likely, but that's another matter entirely), you likely wouldn't see the end of the battle for Cadia alone for years, but we'd have the sense of inkling progression.

Armaggeddon and Cadia in particular need to be put to rest as the "present," and truth be told, even killing major characters wouldn't necessarily break the game. Plenty of settings can advance, and kill loved characters, but that doesn't invalidate the past, especially for something as broad as 40k. People still play 3025 Battletech, Star Wars has advanced a hundred-odd years after the films (though only the first 35 or so are fleshed out), and people play games set in all its timeframes, 40k now has the Horus Heresy as its own side-game, etc.

In fact, if GW were to advance the plot, both forwards and backwards, rather than tying the tabletop game to 1 second to midnight, it could actually open up a lot of room for expansion to armies. You could choose eras which lock or unlock different characters, units, etc. The core stuff would remain basically the same, but how about playing during the Scourging with some Loyalist and Traitor primarchs, and Guard which can take Land Raiders, or 500M42, with the Silent King leading the Necrons, a new generation of Marine and Guard leaders, and even more advanced Tau units?

40k is intended as a setting, but that doesn't mean the setting can't evolve and expand without alienating its playerbase. If people really hate the advancement, they can keep playing in 999M41, and change the course of battles which shaped the future, and at least to themselves or their group, change the course of history. I know I sure love blowing up Yavin 4 with the Death Star when I can, or shooting down Luke in X-Wing.

Technically, the timeline isn't meant to be continued - it'd break the core idea of the franchise: the times when the galaxy is about to end, but not reaching there just yet.

Instead, you can always speak of the galaxy's vast history of heroic sagas and moments of despair.

We know how it began and we know how it will end, everything in between is up to the players - and I think that's great.

TiamatRoar wrote:
What are peoples' opinions on the 13th Black Crusade world-wide campaign, actually? That thing actually did advance the plot to the point where later editions actually rewinded things a bit. If WH40k had plot advancement, theretically one way to really milk it would be worldwide campaigns like that.

Did GW stop doing such things because it wasn't popular? Because it painted them into a corner? Or simply because it was too much work for what it did and GW is really lazy these days?

IIRC Medusa V was the real killer, GW effectively stopped world wide campaigns and what plot progression 40K had (the year was closer to 900.M41 when I started with the game).

I would prefer if 40K retained a bit of plot progression, if anything it could give better justification for new units like a new STC is discovered and thus new tanks. Otherwise it just feels that 40K is stale and stagnant, which is a shame because I used to enjoy being part of the various online campaigns that used to be run by fans.

Much of the existing background that people take for granted today occurred directly as a result of ongoing timeline progression. It did not spring into its current detailed form ex nihilio but has been an accretion of incremental change over years. Halting progression denies the opportunity for further growth for the sake of an ill defined fear of some disaster, while consigning some factions to a limbo of no background expansion because they do not have 10,000 or more years to play around with. They had as much risk of ruining and destroying 40K back in 2nd edition, yet they didn't when they went ahead with timeline progression and the result is the background is ultimately richer for it.

I agree that advancing the plot would upset players. People keep talking about removing of Tau and having them crushed or having Chaos plow through the imperium, but really if anything like that happens at least some faction of players will be upset. I think that the progression would have to be baby steps and not drastic ones that alter the balance of the universe. Even then I think its better being open as it allows players to make their own endings if they want one.

So to answer the question, no it doesn't bother me.

 R3YNO wrote:
I agree that advancing the plot would upset players. People keep talking about removing of Tau and having them crushed or having Chaos plow through the imperium, but really if anything like that happens at least some faction of players will be upset. I think that the progression would have to be baby steps and not drastic ones that alter the balance of the universe. Even then I think its better being open as it allows players to make their own endings if they want one.

So to answer the question, no it doesn't bother me.

Squats.

That's all I'm saying.

People were bothered by Squats so much that we're still feeling the shockwave today.

And pretty much no one played Squats.

Imagine doing something like that to a faction people played, and not even for sales reasons but 'story progression'.

 stormwell wrote:

 R3YNO wrote:
I agree that advancing the plot would upset players. People keep talking about removing of Tau and having them crushed or having Chaos plow through the imperium, but really if anything like that happens at least some faction of players will be upset. I think that the progression would have to be baby steps and not drastic ones that alter the balance of the universe. Even then I think its better being open as it allows players to make their own endings if they want one.

So to answer the question, no it doesn't bother me.

Squats.

That's all I'm saying.

Squats didn't become popular until after the product line had ended.

Which goes to show that GW doesn't really know its demographics as much as it thinks it does.

Would it possible, that GW could expand into the 42nd Millennium, but still keep an overall stagnation to the 40K setting. With the leap into the 42nd Millennium, it would give an increased time-frame to work in, but no significant events would change.

For my part, all I want is for GW to progress the little events - not the major ones. If, hypothetically, 40K moves into the 42nd Millenium, then GW could advance certain plots (speaking just as a Salamanders fan) such as finding another of Vulkan's relics. Or, it could be other little events such as the beginnings of a new Waaagh (Albeit, not a one on the scale of Armageddon), or the discovery of a new STC or planetary system. Just little tidbits, to add a bit more flavour, but not spoil the careful balance that makes 40K so engaging.

 stormwell wrote:


IIRC Medusa V was the real killer, GW effectively stopped world wide campaigns and what plot progression 40K had (the year was closer to 900.M41 when I started with the game).

I would prefer if 40K retained a bit of plot progression, if anything it could give better justification for new units like a new STC is discovered and thus new tanks. Otherwise it just feels that 40K is stale and stagnant, which is a shame because I used to enjoy being part of the various online campaigns that used to be run by fans.

Did something really go wrong with that campaign that caused GW to stop advancing the plot that you might know of or be able to guess? The Medua campaign did take place in the future, but wasn't particularly plot relevant to anything. Sad that GW stopped advancing the plot after that for... no real reason, really. Maybe they just didn't like the costs and logistics of doing world wide campaigns and, once they stopped doing those, stopped doing the plot as well (because they aren't willing to advance the plot without a world wide campaign, which they aren't willing to pay for)