Hey all,

Many armies out there have those nearly useless units in them that can either do nothing or are to expensive for what they are worth. The dilemma is they may have pretty cool models or could be useful.

So anyway if you could change something about one of these units what would you do (within reason, don't go giving your infiltrators hurricane bolter arms, think more stat wise)

Thanks,

Wrong forum. YMDC is for rule questions, you're looking for the proposed rules forum.

mutilators and vespids? also most of the SoB stuff :C

Well, a mod can move it. Personally I'd wish SoB Celestians had models and options to actually do what their special rules suggest, that is try melee. Now they have an Act of Faith good for melee but can't get gear for it, not even bolt pistol and CCW for an extra attack.

Pyrovores: Toughness 5, Increase Flamespurt's AP to 3, minor points bump.
Old One Eye: Toughness 7, 5-6 Wounds, Leadership 10, Armoured Shell (2+ save), Feel No Pain & It Will Not Die.
Harpy: Bonded Exoskeleton (3+ save), 20 points reduction.
Lictor: Ability to assault after deep striking.
Tyrannofex: 70 points reduction.

Moved to Proposed Rules...

Not a unit but still, IG Shotguns, make them Str 4 like SM ones

Orks
Standard Ork Boy
Option for 'Extra Training'
Gives Bs3 for 2 points per model.
This would allow me to actually play Orks with a bit of strategy...
Whether the two points is to much I don't mind.
I need accuracy

Thanks for all the replies guys

Sorry I didn't check the descriptions on the forums - will do next time

Sorry man, but thats a terrible, terrible idea.

Orks don't need and should never get accuracy. Instead of firing one rokkit at BS 3 they fire two at BS 2. Theres nothing at all less strategic about that.

Not to mention Shoota boyz are hardly useless. Sluggas on the other hand... but they don't give a damn about BS 3!

My useless unit is Flash Gits. They are the one exception to everything else in this post. They either need to be more accurate, or preferrably, twin linked or more shots. Plus way cheaper.

The other is the Blitzabomma. Bomms are hard to drop, and when you do, you get a small blast with S7 AP4 2d6 armour pen... thats just pure garbage, not even a single point of extra damage on the chart due to rubbish AP4.

i think kommandos are cool, but useless. I like the idea of infiltrating a pk and 2 burnas, but if you can't assault after infiltrating or have a bigger squad, those guys will probably just take some casualties and run before they can hurt something.

Chaos Space Marines. Give them stuborn. Problem mostly solved.

Rhinos, or all SM transports that don't cost 200 points for that matter, give me a way to assault out of you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sothas wrote:
Chaos Space Marines. Give them stuborn. Problem mostly solved.

That would be nice. Alternatively, incorporate ATSKNF with VotLW.

DogofWar1 wrote:
Rhinos, or all SM transports that don't cost 200 points for that matter, give me a way to assault out of you.

It's more of a bringing back old disemvarkation system and overall bringing CC back to life in 6E. We have a [ur=http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/545811.pagel]special theme[/url] for it.

Nephilim jetfighter:

Make it 140pts, replace the HBs with assualt cannons, replace missiles with twin-linked autocannon.

also Belial is good choice but I'd like to see him drop 20pts and have the TH/SS a 10pt upgrade.

 sing your life wrote:


also Belial is good choice but I'd like to see him drop 20pts and have the TH/SS a 10pt upgrade.

Yeah, I find any SC who is up around 200 points should have an AP2 weapon, even if it's the oldie but goodie bog standard powerfist. If they don't come in at AP2 at that price point, their weapon better have some really cool rules with it.

Like Ragnar. He was cool in 5th, but then practically all the changes hit him in the gut. Furious charge doesn't give the increase to initiative anymore, his Frost Blade became AP3, and all the while he costs almost as much as a Land Raider. And Njal is super expensive for what you get. He was already expensive, but at least you could handwave it when comparing him to some other guys like Tigurius, saying he only lost a single power per turn but gained that nifty turn-based psychic thing, but now, with ML2 psykers weighing in at about 100 pts, and ML3 guys like Ezekial coming in south of 150, he needs a hefty drop. Tigurius is supposed to be dropping a bunch, so I'm sure Njal will come down a lot when 6th drops though, which will be nice.

While we are talking 'bout ap2 i think i should point out cato sicarius is definately not worth 200 points. he does have some major survivability against small arms but in cc he will die to alot of stuff. he needs an ap2 sword.

Warp talons with grenades, cheaper 1K sons with special/heavy weapons, something...anything to make mutilators usefull, variants for land raiders and berzerkers that are good in close combat.

DogofWar1 wrote:

 sing your life wrote:


also Belial is good choice but I'd like to see him drop 20pts and have the TH/SS a 10pt upgrade.

Yeah, I find any SC who is up around 200 points should have an AP2 weapon, even if it's the oldie but goodie bog standard powerfist. If they don't come in at AP2 at that price point, their weapon better have some really cool rules with it.

Actually i was making the TH/SS an upgrade because in its present form the option is superior to belial other weapons.

What about Mandrakes? What could you do to make them better?? I have no clue and would like to get an opinion on it

Mandrakes can appear anywhere on the bored Marbo style and still assault. If the unit they are charging doesn't have line of sight to them, I.E you are charging there back, they don't get to over watch. Plus give them plasma grenades.

There, done. This means they can get that first PT easily AND get to tie up a range squad. I would take them

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not a unit but still, IG Shotguns, make them Str 4 like SM ones

Shotguns suck ass anyway.. You're better off with a pistol and a CCW, because the point of shotguns is to gear up for assault.. If you're trying to just shoot with them, then why not just have a lasgun? It's got better range, FRFSRF etc.

Pyrovore
Torrent, Feel No Pain (it's basically braindead, even when it's alive), Regeneration when in cover (to represent it eating things to heal itself)

Problem solved!

Flying ripper swarms. Regular ones die fast enough, giving them wings so they can plow into the ground and kill themselves, priceless.

Xyptc wrote:Pyrovore
Torrent, Feel No Pain (it's basically braindead, even when it's alive), Regeneration when in cover (to represent it eating things to heal itself)

Problem solved!

Nope, they'd still suck.

Rumbleguts wrote:Flying ripper swarms. Regular ones die fast enough, giving them wings so they can plow into the ground and kill themselves, priceless.

Those already exist.

Hum, yes I know. Was just making a point of how useless they are. Haven't seen a suggestion for fixing ripper swarms that didn't start from the ground to rebuild them to make them useful.

For Eldar:

Banshees : Give them grenades and the option to assault from a vehicle in the same turn.

Scorpions: Assault from infiltrate or outflank, otherwise they are golden.

Hawks: The ability to assault fliers with haywire grenades.

For CSM:

Warp Talons - Grenades, nuff said!

CSM Squads - Stubborn would be nice or make the fearless icon cheaper.

I would also like to see a Chaos only Land Raider variant with alternate weaponry and a bigger transport capacity.

Finally, and this is more of a fluff thing, units with a mark should be able to get the same benefits as cult troops, especially elite units like Terminators.

I.E. Death Guard Terminators should have +1T, -1I, Feel No Pain and Fearless like Plague Marines.

Hopefully this will come later in supplements.

FALCONS and banshees

falcons are absolutly useless. every day of the week serepnts are better.

banshees just dont make the cut iether tho

I would have to say triarch praetorians, destroyers, and flayed ones.

For praetorians give them more attacks. Having one attack as a close combat unit makes it useless, especially when their only melee weapon with ap is unwieldy.

For destroyers make them cheaper, jet bikes, or jet pack infantry.

Flayed ones need better armor, or a transport or the ability to assault out of reserves or just to be troops.

If I could change something about a unit, it would be the Flash Gitz.
Let me make this clear, I really want to like these guys, they are a kitbasher's dream, especially with all the bitz n' gubbinz the orks come with. But what turns me off of them isn't the high cost or even the fact that they take up a heavy slot. It is their total lack of options. Really? Only THREE special options? These gitz are the richest of the rich, but they couldn't pay to get some extra barrels, Kombi weapons or scopes. But why stop there? Their armor needs snazzing up! Perhaps a shiny set of plating with a 3+ save like Badrukk's, or a fancy cloak that functions as a bosspole with a 5+ save? Not to mention the fact that ALL the models in the unit must have the same upgrades. How uncreative can you be?

CloudRider wrote:
Orks
Standard Ork Boy
Option for 'Extra Training'
Gives Bs3 for 2 points per model.
This would allow me to actually play Orks with a bit of strategy...
Whether the two points is to much I don't mind.
I need accuracy

Ork boyz don't train. Stormboyz train, but they train to launch themselves ork-first at the enemy.

Penal legion: Ability to buy up to ten extra soldiers in a squad, 70 pts base and 7 pts a model, let them chose their Desperado skill rather than rolling on a table, +1WS

Still not really great, but much better than before

I may as well throw my hat in the ring. Why is it that the only shooty options for my SM commanders are a bunch of bullcrap combi-weapons and storm bolters? How is it that every captain/chapter master in the known universe picked some kind of whoopin' stick? A space marine commander should be able to take whatever freaking man-portable weapon he wants! Why can't my Chapter master, my freaking CHAPTER MASTER take an assault cannon!? is there really not enough to spare? why can't I give my captain a flamer of all things, would it really be that overpowered? My custom chapter's primary trait is an utter hatred for CC, so why would the chapter master start waving a sword around? or why wouldn't the devestator captain at least carry a heavy bolter? NONSENSE.

 Lord Gatlas wrote:
I may as well throw my hat in the ring. Why is it that the only shooty options for my SM commanders are a bunch of bullcrap combi-weapons and storm bolters? How is it that every captain/chapter master in the known universe picked some kind of whoopin' stick? A space marine commander should be able to take whatever freaking man-portable weapon he wants! Why can't my Chapter master, my freaking CHAPTER MASTER take an assault cannon!? is there really not enough to spare? why can't I give my captain a flamer of all things, would it really be that overpowered? My custom chapter's primary trait is an utter hatred for CC, so why would the chapter master start waving a sword around? or why wouldn't the devestator captain at least carry a heavy bolter? NONSENSE.

assault cannons wouldnt be man portable unless you are in terminator armor.

 Exergy wrote:

 Lord Gatlas wrote:
I may as well throw my hat in the ring. Why is it that the only shooty options for my SM commanders are a bunch of bullcrap combi-weapons and storm bolters? How is it that every captain/chapter master in the known universe picked some kind of whoopin' stick? A space marine commander should be able to take whatever freaking man-portable weapon he wants! Why can't my Chapter master, my freaking CHAPTER MASTER take an assault cannon!? is there really not enough to spare? why can't I give my captain a flamer of all things, would it really be that overpowered? My custom chapter's primary trait is an utter hatred for CC, so why would the chapter master start waving a sword around? or why wouldn't the devestator captain at least carry a heavy bolter? NONSENSE.

assault cannons wouldnt be man portable unless you are in terminator armor.

Says you...

For Blood Angels:
Tactical Marines (dammit GW, learn to play your own armies!)
Non-assault oriented Death Company (too damn expensive either way but at least with cc weapons they're worth the points)

Tyranids:
Lictors
Pyrovores
Mawlocs (just get a fething trygon)
Warriors (not always, but they're pricey and not points well-spent if you're using endless swarm tactics, they are also pretty damn easy to kill, making them hard to justify for MC)
Rippers (expensive, weak, easy to kill)
Old One Eye (it's a crappy version of a crappy MC, who I'm mentioning next)
Carnifex (formerly the most feared MC of them all! Now it's an expensive gun-beast that's gakky in CC and too expensive to take for ranged)

 StarHunter25 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Lord Gatlas wrote:
I may as well throw my hat in the ring. Why is it that the only shooty options for my SM commanders are a bunch of bullcrap combi-weapons and storm bolters? How is it that every captain/chapter master in the known universe picked some kind of whoopin' stick? A space marine commander should be able to take whatever freaking man-portable weapon he wants! Why can't my Chapter master, my freaking CHAPTER MASTER take an assault cannon!? is there really not enough to spare? why can't I give my captain a flamer of all things, would it really be that overpowered? My custom chapter's primary trait is an utter hatred for CC, so why would the chapter master start waving a sword around? or why wouldn't the devestator captain at least carry a heavy bolter? NONSENSE.

assault cannons wouldnt be man portable unless you are in terminator armor.

Says you...

Those weapons are rotary cannons not assault cannons and are way worse, something like salvo 3/5 S3AP6

Rumbleguts wrote:
Hum, yes I know. Was just making a point of how useless they are. Haven't seen a suggestion for fixing ripper swarms that didn't start from the ground to rebuild them to make them useful.

Give them eternal warrior and lose the 'eating themselves' rule. Give them a pricey upgrade for making them rending?

Useless units?
Nobody has mentioned Scout Bikes, nor melee Scouts. Using them is like giving youself a handicap.

...Actually, you'd lose your dignity in the progress too....

Lictors. They just don't do what they're designed for. Use them and you'll get laughed out the door.

Spetulhu wrote:
Personally I'd wish SoB Celestians had models and options to actually do what their special rules suggest, that is try melee. Now they have an Act of Faith good for melee but can't get gear for it, not even bolt pistol and CCW for an extra attack.

A common suggestion I see is letting them take storm shields and power weapons. Would work nicely, I think. Makes them very good at assaulting and quite survivable, as is befitting of an elite choice.

As for models, something like the Celestians in Soulstorm might be nice.

 Tigramans wrote:
Useless units?
Nobody has mentioned Scout Bikes, nor melee Scouts. Using them is like giving youself a handicap.

...Actually, you'd lose your dignity in the progress too....

and no mentions of Mandrakes, which are far far worse

Whoa! CC scouts are great for clearing cultist blobs, specialy when paired with a LSS. Oh yes, and a cheap unit to throw at a monstrous creature to do damage with krak grenades when the MC insta-gibs your expensive Boltergaunts just as easily as the cheap scouts. Also using scout redeployment a 2nd turn charge is very feasible.

The Emperor's Champion - give him more attacks, make his sword S6 all the time, problem solved. 2 attacks base with a S4 weapon just doesn't cut it for character hunting, even with ID on 6's to wound in challenges.

 Exergy wrote:

and no mentions of Mandrakes, which are far far worse

Oh wow, how did I manage to forget the Mandrakes! *slap on a forehead*

SHIELD DRONE SQUAD.
Heck, give them SOMETHING
/Thread.

 Tigramans wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

and no mentions of Mandrakes, which are far far worse

Oh wow, how did I manage to forget the Mandrakes! *slap on a forehead*

they have stealth, easy to miss

 Exergy wrote:

they have stealth, easy to miss

Oh yes, nice one xD

 BoomWolf wrote:
SHIELD DRONE SQUAD.
Heck, give them SOMETHING
/Thread.

I agree!

Eldar.

Exarch Powers.
Iron Resolve: remove.
Feel No Pain: add.

Avatar.
Night Vision: replace; Feel No Pain at 15 points.

Autarch.
Falcon Wings: add; grants Herald of Victory & Skyleap.
Warp Generator: change; one random model suffers a wound with no armour save allowed.

Guardian Storm & Striking Scorpions & Autarch.
Scorpion Chainsword: rename; Eldar Chainsword
Chainsword: replace; Eldar Chainsword.
Power Sword: change; 10 points per model

Banshee.
Plasma Grenades: add.

Fire Dragon Exarch.
Iron Resolve: removed.
Feel No Pain: add; 10 points.

Harlquin.
Dodge: add; 4+ evasion save in melee.
Holo-suit: change; grants effect of current Veil of Tears at personal level.
Veil of Tears: change; Malediction 24", affected unit automatically miss with Snap Shots.
Hallucination Grenades: change; units assaulted by model armed with Hallucination Grenades count all models assaulting it as if armed with assault grenades.

Warp Spider Exarch.
Stalker: replace; Feel No Pain at 10 points

Falcon.
Shuriken Catapults: replace, Shuriken Cannon
Dedicated Transport: add; all but Wraiths.
Assault Vehicle: add.

Wave Serpent.
Cost: increase; +10
Serpent Shield: change; range 24"
Assault Vehicle: add.

Hemlock Wraithfighter.
This is just an odd one. It needs to be fixed. It's named fighter, but acts like a bomber, but bombs using a psychic power that many armies are nearly completely immune against. Suggestion:
Two heavy D-scythes: add; Template, Torrent: remove; blast.

In general the Eldar codex is a good one. There are no real complete wastes. There are some oddities, such as a model able to purchase Night Vision when he's got no weapons with a range longer than 12". Then you've got the Harlequins which GW continues to make conservative or no changes to because of their state in the other codex (which means they never receive the changes they need). And you've got the Guardian Storm which exists in a state where their cost reflects the cost of Guardian Defender rather than what they actually bring to the table.

 BoomWolf wrote:
SHIELD DRONE SQUAD.
Heck, give them SOMETHING
/Thread.

Shield drone squads don't exist, there are only drone squads that can be comprised of any combination of shield, gun, or marker drones. So they can have two different weapons.

Flash gitz, Tankbustas, Kommandos, Stormboyz, Gretchin, Burnas, Basic Nobz with Power klaws, and Deffcoptas. That is all.

Most of the Eldar Aspect Warrior HQs are way too expensive for what they do. Just my opinion however. Probably need to make them cheaper is all.

Its well known that Pyrovore is the worst unit in 40K, even with the competition. I do agree that Torrent would help it a lot, but it should have two firing profiles. One as a torrent Hellhound cannon and one as a twin-linked multi-melta. It instantly fills a hole in the 'Nid arsenal, being AP 1 shooting and mid range anti-heavy armor. I'd also act as a 12" 'Do Not Enter' zone for enemy armor. Also, just for the lulz, it should be made Calvary. Since it is, technically, one 'Nid riding another 'Nid.

Mandrakes...yes, they need some help. I don't think 1st turn assault is really the issue since it essentially nullifies IG gunlines that aren't tanks. I'd rather do something relatively simple, like start them off with a pain token. Also, give them Shrouded instead of Stealth first turn they arrive, then Stealth after the fact. Appearing 18" away, then moving 6 and pinning a gun line unit is far more reasonable than showing up and instantly nullifying a unit of Pathfinders, IG HWTs, or any other squishies who have 0 change in CC. Its even worse since you'd have probably deployed them close to each other to take advantage of orders or Lord Com leadership, and thus they could just effectively delete your gun line for the purposes of the game.

Flash Gitz, I agree, are atrocious. Too expensive and not enough dakka to justify the expense. If I'm going to pay for Gets Hot!, I want them to be damned Plasma Guns at the very least. Not 'randomly meltaguns or maybe multi-lasers, you just can't tell'. Those Gitfinders deal with cover saves is nice, but those upgrades should be worth their salt instead of things to waste points on. I'm okay with some measure of randomness to the orkies, but enough is enough. Gets Hot! is all the randomness needed, make them pay to upgrade their weapons into either Plasma Guns or Meltaguns, not randomly either or neither. Also, of all the units that are Orks in the game, they could get away with BS3. But I'm not married to the idea.

Yeah, Kommandos are terrible, but mainly because they've got no survivability. If you infiltrate them, they are essentially a first blood you're giving to your opponent. They could use better options, too. Only two spechul weapons isn't cutting it. Pair of Rokkit Launchers? Great. Won't hurt anything, so you've just wasted your points. Don't think they can all take Shootas, but they should be able to. At least then they can pop up in range to Dakkadakka some units first turn. Also, maybe give them some things like the old Catachan rules where they can put booby traps on terrain pieces. Make those terrain rules work in your favor even more.

Rough Riders. Noone uses them for a few very good reasons. They compete with Valks, Vendettas, and Hellhounds for a Fast Attack slot, and you'll be hard pressed for them to earn their points back. Give them back their AP2 so they can be a solid counter charge unit, or make their Hammer of Wrath hits Str 5, AP3 so they can actually gib most things on the charge that aren't Terminators.

Oh, Last Chancers, you weren't given that in the IG codex. Penal Legionnaires should totally have the Combined Squads rule but only with other Penal Legionnaires. Additionally, they should be 50 pts base for 10, and then you can buy those optional upgrades for 10 points each. Sure, having all would make them 8 points a model, and they'd still be Guardsmen so they'd not be great even with the upgrades, but having 30 of them Outflank and start double tapping at 24" before charging feels better than what we've got currently. They'd at least be a somewhat viable option compared to what is the only viable way to take enemy objectives, which is Valkyries & Vet teams. Besides, I have a feeling Vet teams are going to get the nerf bat hard next codex.

I could go on, so I'll stop here.

Glancing through this thread it seems that the problems with these "useless units" fall under four categories:

1) Units that have been nerfed by changes in USRs, and the rules more generally.
2) Units whose main problem is simply being outshone by another unit(s) that competes for the same slot, or at least those precious points.
3) Units that are not bad per se, but are just a bit overpriced.
4) Units that are just flawed from the outset.

Of course a unit's problems might fall under more than one of these categories.

The first problem I sympathise with the designers over. 40k is a huge game, with loads of units, and it changes constantly. Someone is bound to get screwed here and there. Plus these are often dated units that can possibly hope to be patched back up again in the future.

The second I feel is similarly unavoidable. True internal balance in a codex is near impossible, and some units are always going to be that little bit better. I feel a lot of the fault for the flack these units get lie with over competitive players. Sure they might never make it into that uber tournie list, but there is no reason you can't just enjoy them in friendlier games. Falcons are a great example. If serpents didn't kick so much ass I don't think people would slag them off as much. I use them, they are great in game and do roughly what you would expect for the points. But, yeah, those serpents just do a little more...

The 3rd problem is similar and a bit frustrating. A point reduction is often the ideal solution to problem 2) as well. I often wish GW would just grow a pair with their FAQ's and at least in the most obvious cases give them a little tweak. If you have ever played ANY online pvp game, patches will repeatedly tweak and strive for balance between the different things you can use/play with. GW has the means now, in the internet age, and should use them. It is more work, but it is in their interest as it would sell those problem models!

The fourth one is the one that just plain frustrates me, when you read through a new codex, find an entry, and think "why even bother?" Banshees I am looking at you, Grrr!

 JhonasX wrote:
Lictors. They just don't do what they're designed for. Use them and you'll get laughed out the door.

that depends, if you have a three man/nid brood and your oponant(playing marines) has a scout squad with snipers in abulding, pinning down your other units, the lictor brood is perfect! but after that, there useless unless there is something close by

the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

I would have to disagree. Gaunts are cheaper and faster. Much of the points that genestealers cost are sunk into infiltrating/outflanking where they have been significantly nerfed. They only have 1 more toughness, paper armour and will die in droves just as easily as gaunts now it is hard to get them into combat unscathed. Except you can have more than twice as many Gaunts.

the_valeyard6 wrote:

 JhonasX wrote:
Lictors. They just don't do what they're designed for. Use them and you'll get laughed out the door.

that depends, if you have a three man/nid brood and your oponant(playing marines) has a scout squad with snipers in abulding, pinning down your other units, the lictor brood is perfect! but after that, there useless unless there is something close by

the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

... You don't play Tyranids obviously. I don't ever take Genestealers, I only take Gants and Gaunts (and sometimes a Terv as a troop choice) because Genestealers are extremely fragile, I had an entire squad destroyed in a single turn by only a Stormtalon and maybe one other small unit. Hormagaunts have never been taken out in one turn for me (neither have gants for that matter) because while they are slightly less durable they aren't huge targets.

Lictors! Oh I forgot about them. So many poor, poor Tyranid units.

Yeah, heard interesting rumor about Lictors getting some kind of benefit, like the first enemy turn after they arrive being only able to fire snap shots at them or some such. Would make them loads more survivable. I'd say if that's too extreme (and lemme tell ya what, it would all but guarantee they'll get into charge next turn), then Shrouded and Stealth special rule first full turn and maybe some kind of Blind Grenade would help.

A friend of mine brought this up, but it always seemed silly that Hormagaunts weren't considered Beasts, or that the 'Nid army as a whole didn't have beasts in any way. Considering who and what they are, it'd doesn't make sense. Now, I grant you, putting them 24.0000001 inches from the opposite table edge then immediately moving 12+D6" in one turn is intimidating, but c'mon.

 NydusTemplar wrote:
A friend of mine brought this up, but it always seemed silly that Hormagaunts weren't considered Beasts, or that the 'Nid army as a whole didn't have beasts in any way. Considering who and what they are, it'd doesn't make sense. Now, I grant you, putting them 24.0000001 inches from the opposite table edge then immediately moving 12+D6" in one turn is intimidating, but c'mon.

Well, we do have the overcosted and really fragile Raveners. I love the model but they just die so quickly.

 PrinceRaven wrote:


Well, we do have the overcosted and really fragile Raveners. I love the model but they just die so quickly.

I completely missed Raveners, probably because I looked at them and said why bother. I'll have to give the codex a once over. Last time I looked at it in depth was back during early 5th when I actually played table top with IG and was regularly being eaten by 'Nids. Primarily because lack of funds and scrounged army.

Stealth suits. let them buy any special weapons not just 1 per 3 and you would see them flying off the shelves

By "any" you mean any that crisis normall could, right?

Because I have seen before suggestions to give them rail rifles (and that would be abit crazy)

Though honestly, I think they just need a price brake. if you load them up with special guns they would jest make themselves a target, and they are not really hard to kill.

A note on flash gitz... I really, honestly think that a bump to BS, and the ability to take a BW as a dedicated transport would go miles to making them a viable unit. Similarly, I think lootaz should have the option to take a looted wagon as a transport option, because it would be fluffier than the fluffiest of the fluffbunny's fluffernutter sammiches.

 WildeThing wrote:

the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

I would have to disagree. Gaunts are cheaper and faster. Much of the points that genestealers cost are sunk into infiltrating/outflanking where they have been significantly nerfed. They only have 1 more toughness, paper armour and will die in droves just as easily as gaunts now it is hard to get them into combat unscathed. Except you can have more than twice as many Gaunts.

all of this depends on the board, i tend too do 3x2 gw tiles, so in the 1st turn the geanstealers run, second they ycharge into the enemys command get, get shot up in the overwatch, then the remaining 18+broodlord use there 58 s4 rending attacks, which cn instakill anything really, then they move to another target, while guants just do 1 s3 attack each which does almost nothing

to the person who said warriors were useless in a small game, if i take a bug prime, and 2 6 man warrior squads, turn 1, run, turn 2, charge and run rip apart anything, and dont care for getting shot at with the 3 wounds and decent toghness and save

and rippers are good in some cases, a, a distraction, they do work well for that, b, the bulding with the 2 quad lasscannons can only fire at the clossest ground unit and hit on 6+ for 200 points, so the rippers are perfect for that

the_valeyard6 wrote:

 WildeThing wrote:

the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

I would have to disagree. Gaunts are cheaper and faster. Much of the points that genestealers cost are sunk into infiltrating/outflanking where they have been significantly nerfed. They only have 1 more toughness, paper armour and will die in droves just as easily as gaunts now it is hard to get them into combat unscathed. Except you can have more than twice as many Gaunts.

all of this depends on the board, i tend too do 3x2 gw tiles

I'm pretty sure everyone assumes the standard 6x4 board when talking tactics and such.

Chosen: Give them back their infiltrate.
1k Sons: Cheaper and heavy/special weapons. Lets compensate for that slow and purposeful by being able to fire heavy weapons as they footslog (which they almost always do after their rhino is insta-gibbed from under them).
Mutilators: Pff... I really don't know, just remove them from the codex.
Possessed: Make them seriously cheap, and we're actually talking business here.

Also, yeah we need some assault transports. Especially those that wouldn't cost as much as Ahriman.
Drop pods wouldn't hurt either.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not a unit but still, IG Shotguns, make them Str 4 like SM ones

There really is no reasoning to give IG str 4 shotguns, fluffwise or crunchwise. Marines can use more powerful shotguns because they are much bigger and stronger. A marine might be able to fire a 10 gauge shotgun without too much trouble, while for a normal human a 10 gauge shotgun is pretty damn big (most modern shotguns used for hunting big game or home defence are 12 gauge). The point of a shotgun is to give vets an assault weapon. It isn't always a good choice, but there are times when it would be nice to shoot and then assault a unit, like if you are loaded with flamers and/or meltaguns and want to finish off a weak unit without wasting an LRBT shot or something.

Just to let you know how long I could go with this response, I play CSM and Tyranids....

CSM - There are so many issues. At this point, my joke with this 'dex is that it should be called Codex: Heldrake Delivery System, as that's about all it's good for. Most of the issues have already been addressed on here ad infinitum. The one unit I am surprised nobody mentioned: Khorne Berzerkers - They weren't great before and have been nerfed even more with the reduction on their attacks and the loss of +1I on Furious Charge. I use them out of sheer stubbornness, but realize I am gimping myself. Giving back their 2 attacks would be a start here. Not to mention some type of assault transport for them.
The other thing that was left unsaid is some kind of LR variant. I can't believe that in 10000 years they couldn't have come up with something else to do with it.

Tyranids - 3/4 of this codex just flat sucks. I know these have also been gone over again and again previously on the board, but I still need to say a few things just because I love venting so much about my main army.
Lictors - Overpriced and an Elite, the death knell for getting on the tabletop in this army. If they could assault out of reserve, that would be the only way I could see saving them, and I'm not even sure that would help.
Pyrovores - 'Nuff said...., although I do like the previous idea that was mentioned of 2 firing profiles, that may actaully make them somewhat useful.....
Genestealers - Need to be able to assault out of outflank again or a point reduction
Warriors - God, I want to like these, but that 4 toughness, 4 armor is laughable at the point cost, oh and you should see what Enfeeble/Assault Cannon does to them. Missile Launchers love Warriors.....
Shrikes - All of the issues of the Warriors at even higher points....YES!
Mawloc - I tried one once, then realized what the extra 30 points provides on the Trygon....yeah, horrible
Harpy - What a waste of ink. I am not sure there is a way to save this unit without a complete rewrite

 Mahtamori wrote:
Eldar.

Exarch Powers.
Iron Resolve: remove.
Feel No Pain: add.

Avatar.
Night Vision: replace; Feel No Pain at 15 points.

Autarch.
Falcon Wings: add; grants Herald of Victory & Skyleap.
Warp Generator: change; one random model suffers a wound with no armour save allowed.

Guardian Storm & Striking Scorpions & Autarch.
Scorpion Chainsword: rename; Eldar Chainsword
Chainsword: replace; Eldar Chainsword.
Power Sword: change; 10 points per model

Banshee.
Plasma Grenades: add.

Fire Dragon Exarch.
Iron Resolve: removed.
Feel No Pain: add; 10 points.

Harlquin.
Dodge: add; 4+ evasion save in melee.
Holo-suit: change; grants effect of current Veil of Tears at personal level.
Veil of Tears: change; Malediction 24", affected unit automatically miss with Snap Shots.
Hallucination Grenades: change; units assaulted by model armed with Hallucination Grenades count all models assaulting it as if armed with assault grenades.

Warp Spider Exarch.
Stalker: replace; Feel No Pain at 10 points

Falcon.
Shuriken Catapults: replace, Shuriken Cannon
Dedicated Transport: add; all but Wraiths.
Assault Vehicle: add.

Wave Serpent.
Cost: increase; +10
Serpent Shield: change; range 24"
Assault Vehicle: add.

Hemlock Wraithfighter.
This is just an odd one. It needs to be fixed. It's named fighter, but acts like a bomber, but bombs using a psychic power that many armies are nearly completely immune against. Suggestion:
Two heavy D-scythes: add; Template, Torrent: remove; blast.

In general the Eldar codex is a good one. There are no real complete wastes. There are some oddities, such as a model able to purchase Night Vision when he's got no weapons with a range longer than 12". Then you've got the Harlequins which GW continues to make conservative or no changes to because of their state in the other codex (which means they never receive the changes they need). And you've got the Guardian Storm which exists in a state where their cost reflects the cost of Guardian Defender rather than what they actually bring to the table.

hold on, now i agree with most of that, exept 2 things
1) why falcon and serpent have assult vehcle? with falcon it would make since, because people would actually be smart to use them (unlike now)
and 2) are you saying serpents arnt good enoguh? thread was about units that arent good, and need to be changed for the better. Are you saying serpents are bad? cause there not. there broken op awesome.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
Eldar.

Exarch Powers.
Iron Resolve: remove.
Feel No Pain: add.

Avatar.
Night Vision: replace; Feel No Pain at 15 points.

Autarch.
Falcon Wings: add; grants Herald of Victory & Skyleap.
Warp Generator: change; one random model suffers a wound with no armour save allowed.

Guardian Storm & Striking Scorpions & Autarch.
Scorpion Chainsword: rename; Eldar Chainsword
Chainsword: replace; Eldar Chainsword.
Power Sword: change; 10 points per model

Banshee.
Plasma Grenades: add.

Fire Dragon Exarch.
Iron Resolve: removed.
Feel No Pain: add; 10 points.

Harlquin.
Dodge: add; 4+ evasion save in melee.
Holo-suit: change; grants effect of current Veil of Tears at personal level.
Veil of Tears: change; Malediction 24", affected unit automatically miss with Snap Shots.
Hallucination Grenades: change; units assaulted by model armed with Hallucination Grenades count all models assaulting it as if armed with assault grenades.

Warp Spider Exarch.
Stalker: replace; Feel No Pain at 10 points

Falcon.
Shuriken Catapults: replace, Shuriken Cannon
Dedicated Transport: add; all but Wraiths.
Assault Vehicle: add.

Wave Serpent.
Cost: increase; +10
Serpent Shield: change; range 24"
Assault Vehicle: add.

Hemlock Wraithfighter.
This is just an odd one. It needs to be fixed. It's named fighter, but acts like a bomber, but bombs using a psychic power that many armies are nearly completely immune against. Suggestion:
Two heavy D-scythes: add; Template, Torrent: remove; blast.

In general the Eldar codex is a good one. There are no real complete wastes. There are some oddities, such as a model able to purchase Night Vision when he's got no weapons with a range longer than 12". Then you've got the Harlequins which GW continues to make conservative or no changes to because of their state in the other codex (which means they never receive the changes they need). And you've got the Guardian Storm which exists in a state where their cost reflects the cost of Guardian Defender rather than what they actually bring to the table.

hold on, now i agree with most of that, exept 2 things
1) why falcon and serpent have assult vehcle? with falcon it would make since, because people would actually be smart to use them (unlike now)
and 2) are you saying serpents arnt good enoguh? thread was about units that arent good, and need to be changed for the better. Are you saying serpents are bad? cause there not. there broken op awesome.

I agree that the Serpent doesn't need real buffs in and of itself but nothing of the Eldar is meant to work on its own.

My gripe is the inability to make wraithblades worth my while. They look great and do their job well, but for the cost they can't compete with their shooty Wguard cousins nor can they reliably get to a target. Giving the Serpent assault would make this unit excessively better since your opponent knows exactly what this unit is going to be used for as it crosses the no man's land.

 darthnatus wrote:

the_valeyard6 wrote:

 JhonasX wrote:
Lictors. They just don't do what they're designed for. Use them and you'll get laughed out the door.

that depends, if you have a three man/nid brood and your oponant(playing marines) has a scout squad with snipers in abulding, pinning down your other units, the lictor brood is perfect! but after that, there useless unless there is something close by

the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

... You don't play Tyranids obviously. I don't ever take Genestealers, I only take Gants and Gaunts (and sometimes a Terv as a troop choice) because Genestealers are extremely fragile, I had an entire squad destroyed in a single turn by only a Stormtalon and maybe one other small unit. Hormagaunts have never been taken out in one turn for me (neither have gants for that matter) because while they are slightly less durable they aren't huge targets.

i mainly play nids, but as i said earlier i play on smaller ables instore, so the oponant has less time to shoot them, and if they get shot up easly, put them in squads of five, but piut them near eachother, so when you charge they all do and if one fails the others wont and it also helps as they can only overwatch 1 squad so if they all hit, it can only kill 5

I reckon tactical terminators could just about fit in here. I mean for 40 points they are a huge target with 1 wound. I know they recently got the 5+ invul, but still meh. So much ap2 out there just hoses them down.

 scommy wrote:
I reckon tactical terminators could just about fit in here. I mean for 40 points they are a huge target with 1 wound. I know they recently got the 5+ invul, but still meh. So much ap2 out there just hoses them down.

Recently?! I'm pretty sure the 5++ was erratad in back in 3rd edition. They've been sporting it for a long time now...

the_valeyard6 wrote:

 darthnatus wrote:

the_valeyard6 wrote:

 JhonasX wrote:
Lictors. They just don't do what they're designed for. Use them and you'll get laughed out the door.

that depends, if you have a three man/nid brood and your oponant(playing marines) has a scout squad with snipers in abulding, pinning down your other units, the lictor brood is perfect! but after that, there useless unless there is something close by

the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

... You don't play Tyranids obviously. I don't ever take Genestealers, I only take Gants and Gaunts (and sometimes a Terv as a troop choice) because Genestealers are extremely fragile, I had an entire squad destroyed in a single turn by only a Stormtalon and maybe one other small unit. Hormagaunts have never been taken out in one turn for me (neither have gants for that matter) because while they are slightly less durable they aren't huge targets.

i mainly play nids, but as i said earlier i play on smaller ables instore, so the oponant has less time to shoot them, and if they get shot up easly, put them in squads of five, but piut them near eachother, so when you charge they all do and if one fails the others wont and it also helps as they can only overwatch 1 squad so if they all hit, it can only kill 5

I've had mixed luck with Genestealers, and as Ymgarl are already an Elite choice (of which we have too many), there is no need to make Genestealer Elite. Now, if Ymgarl Geestealers had the same options as regular Genestealers...then they would definitely be Elite and we could get rid of Genestealers.

 scommy wrote:
I reckon tactical terminators could just about fit in here. I mean for 40 points they are a huge target with 1 wound. I know they recently got the 5+ invul, but still meh. So much ap2 out there just hoses them down.

Tactical Terminators do need something. A storm bolter doesn't put out enough firepower for a 5 man unit to be even remotely threatening with shooting, and powerfists, while very powerful, are striking last.

The big reason why terminators were so threatening in 5th was because of assault terminators. The status quo favored them, and while tactical terminators were considered meh, the fact that terminators were getting bought kept their tactical brothers from getting upgrades/points reductions. In addition, there was less AP2/rending/etc. floating around.

Nowadays, between weight of fire and/or low AP weapons, Terminators are very tough to use outside of a land raider team (which comes in at about 450 points), and if you're springing for that you might as well go all out and get the assault terminators.

I think something that could help would be making them cheaper (35 pts or about) and giving them access to two heavy weapons per 5 terminators, with a 3rd allowed at some level (8+ terminators or so). Maybe also giving them access to some special rules or something akin to the way old BT Termies would get special rules. Like allow Tank Hunters to apply, or give Skyfire to heavy weapons, or something.

But unfortunately, at this point we're likely locked in until 7th ed, now that C:SM has come out.

 DogofWar1 wrote:

 scommy wrote:
I reckon tactical terminators could just about fit in here. I mean for 40 points they are a huge target with 1 wound. I know they recently got the 5+ invul, but still meh. So much ap2 out there just hoses them down.

Tactical Terminators do need something. A storm bolter doesn't put out enough firepower for a 5 man unit to be even remotely threatening with shooting, and powerfists, while very powerful, are striking last.

The big reason why terminators were so threatening in 5th was because of assault terminators. The status quo favored them, and while tactical terminators were considered meh, the fact that terminators were getting bought kept their tactical brothers from getting upgrades/points reductions. In addition, there was less AP2/rending/etc. floating around.

Nowadays, between weight of fire and/or low AP weapons, Terminators are very tough to use outside of a land raider team (which comes in at about 450 points), and if you're springing for that you might as well go all out and get the assault terminators.

I think something that could help would be making them cheaper (35 pts or about) and giving them access to two heavy weapons per 5 terminators, with a 3rd allowed at some level (8+ terminators or so). Maybe also giving them access to some special rules or something akin to the way old BT Termies would get special rules. Like allow Tank Hunters to apply, or give Skyfire to heavy weapons, or something.

But unfortunately, at this point we're likely locked in until 7th ed, now that C:SM has come out.

Yup totally agree with all you said.

Tactical Terminators may be one of the more iconic units in 40k. However, try as a might, I fail to see any real use for them.
1/ They fail badly at shooting.
2/ Are soso at assault, as you said they attack last - not cool.
3/ Reasonably easy to kill in the current AP2 environment, or even with massed small arm fire.
4/ Expensive.
All in all a pretty damned useless unit.

How about termigants with stranglewebs. 15 points for a 3T 1W 6+Sv model using a template that is Str 2 and rolls against unmodified Str to Wound. Oh, and is 0 armor pen. BUT, it is assault 1 AND pins! Three of these is the cost of a pyrovore.

In GK:

Useless unit 1:

Daemonhost.
Random abilities means just when you need a good CC attack you get a shooting attack instead! ARRRGGH

Useless unit 2:
Brother Captain Stern.
Honestly WHY WHY WHY would you take him? He's 200 points of wasted potential. Wow he can reroll something! He has a "Zone of Banishment!!" that will kill your OWN UNITS TOO! and Let's Face It a Brother Captain tooled up with 50 points of wargear (Psychotroke, Rad Grenades, master crafted force weapon, blind grenades etc) will EAT STERN FOR BREAKFAST.

Useless Unit 3:
Penitent
Can't remember the name properly but the one with Fleet and multiple attacks and the fact that it is NOT AS GOOD AS A DEATHCULT ASSASSIN.


What I would change for these units.

Daemonhost:
Keep the randomness, but when in shooting you roll for random shooting attack, and when in CC you roll for random CC attack profiles.

Brother Captain Stern.
Bring him down to normal Brother Captain points. OR give him Hatred (Daemon of Tzeentch) to whole army and Eternal Warrior


Penitent
Give a FNP save of 4+ and make attacks Rending.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tactical Terminators.........

Overshadowed by Dark Angel Terminators and most definitely by Grey Knight Terminators.


They should take a leaf out of CSM codex and get a points reduction, and their special weapons shouldn't be so costly.

Mandrakes. Give them anything. They could not get worse.

Something that could help Tactical Terminators (among other needed changes), would be to give them special ammo, or something like that as a unit upgrade.

In an era when Tyranids and all sorts of other nasties are popping up everywhere, I'd think the armory would be willing to give their super special Terminator troops the right ammunition to deal with it.

Warp Talons: This one's easy. Keep them the same cost, but give them their damn grenades, and make their claws rending ffs. They're supposed to be sharp enough to slice through the dimensional barrier. So Terminator armor is stronger than dimensions!?

Khorne Berserkers 105 points

Berserker: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 LD9 SV3+
Champion: WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A3 LD10 SV3+

Composition: 4 Berserkers and 1 Champion
Wargear: Bolt Pistol, Power Armor, Frag and Krak Grenades, Chainaxe

Special Rules: No Retreat, Feels No Pain (6+), Frenzy

Frenzy: Models with this rule may Charge after Running (as may any character who joins this unit), but the unit MUST charge any unit that it can hurt within 8". This unit also has the Rage special rule and its charge bonus cannot be negated by making a disordered charge or through any enemy abilities.

No Retreat: This unit is Fearless, but if it ever loses combat, it takes X additional wounds where X is the amount it lost by.
---------------------
Options:
Take up to 15 additional Khorne Berserkers: 18 points per model
Upgrade any Chainaxe to a Khornate Chainaxe (Gain Shred): 2 points per model
Any Khorne Berserker may replace its Chainaxe with a Power Weapon: 13 points per model
Every 5th Khorne berserker may replace its bolt pistol with a plasma pistol: 10 points per model
The unit may gain the Scout special rule: 3 points per model

Replace the unit's equipment with Terminator Armor, Power Weapon, and combi bolter: 20 points per model
Any Berserker in terminator armor may replace their combi bolter with a power axe: 5 points per model
(A unit in Terminator Armor is always an elite choice and may not scout)

 Dakkamite wrote:
Sorry man, but thats a terrible, terrible idea.

Orks don't need and should never get accuracy. Instead of firing one rokkit at BS 3 they fire two at BS 2. Theres nothing at all less strategic about that.

Not to mention Shoota boyz are hardly useless. Sluggas on the other hand... but they don't give a damn about BS 3!

My useless unit is Flash Gits. They are the one exception to everything else in this post. They either need to be more accurate, or preferrably, twin linked or more shots. Plus way cheaper.

The other is the Blitzabomma. Bomms are hard to drop, and when you do, you get a small blast with S7 AP4 2d6 armour pen... thats just pure garbage, not even a single point of extra damage on the chart due to rubbish AP4.

Even if Orks used to have BS3 before 4th edition.

Must be a shocker to know that Warbosses could get up to BS5! I mean the Bad Moonz shoot well enough afterall.

flayed ones. if they had a weapon option like ap 4 claws or something with a special character that buffed them a little they would be great

 scommy wrote:

 DogofWar1 wrote:

 scommy wrote:
I reckon tactical terminators could just about fit in here. I mean for 40 points they are a huge target with 1 wound. I know they recently got the 5+ invul, but still meh. So much ap2 out there just hoses them down.

Tactical Terminators do need something. A storm bolter doesn't put out enough firepower for a 5 man unit to be even remotely threatening with shooting, and powerfists, while very powerful, are striking last.

The big reason why terminators were so threatening in 5th was because of assault terminators. The status quo favored them, and while tactical terminators were considered meh, the fact that terminators were getting bought kept their tactical brothers from getting upgrades/points reductions. In addition, there was less AP2/rending/etc. floating around.

Nowadays, between weight of fire and/or low AP weapons, Terminators are very tough to use outside of a land raider team (which comes in at about 450 points), and if you're springing for that you might as well go all out and get the assault terminators.

I think something that could help would be making them cheaper (35 pts or about) and giving them access to two heavy weapons per 5 terminators, with a 3rd allowed at some level (8+ terminators or so). Maybe also giving them access to some special rules or something akin to the way old BT Termies would get special rules. Like allow Tank Hunters to apply, or give Skyfire to heavy weapons, or something.

But unfortunately, at this point we're likely locked in until 7th ed, now that C:SM has come out.

Yup totally agree with all you said.

Tactical Terminators may be one of the more iconic units in 40k. However, try as a might, I fail to see any real use for them.
1/ They fail badly at shooting.
2/ Are soso at assault, as you said they attack last - not cool.
3/ Reasonably easy to kill in the current AP2 environment, or even with massed small arm fire.
4/ Expensive.
All in all a pretty damned useless unit.

1. Storm Bolter is a bit weak for a 40pts model, provided the model was only competent at shooting, which is not where it's strength lies.
2. It also completely ignores armour and instantly kills a Chapter Master.
3. AP2 didn't get more common, it got scarcer. Remember that power weapons of any description used to be AP2. I think recent codices have more AP2 for the simple reason that Terminators and their equivalents simply didn't have enough to be scared of except vast number of attacks. Which you can't get in melee all that easily without presenting too much free combat resolution.
4. Well, yeah, of course. Give a tactical marine a power fist and he's up above 30 points. How many points do you think it's worth not only preventing twice as many shots but also becoming immune to AP3, which is a hell of a lot common than AP2, is worth?

They aren't bad and they aren't useless. It's just that for the longest time ever, with the exception of the Space Wolf codex, Storm Shields have not been priced correctly. Meaning THSS Terminators were/are dirt cheap and isn't a good comparison. Is the balance for Bolter Termies good? No, but this is Warhammer 40k we're talking about, so set against that standard they're pretty much all right and nothing worth losing time about.

"2. and instantly kills a Chapter Master. " That are not on bikes, or has a shield eternal

 Mahtamori wrote:

 scommy wrote:

 DogofWar1 wrote:

 scommy wrote:
I reckon tactical terminators could just about fit in here. I mean for 40 points they are a huge target with 1 wound. I know they recently got the 5+ invul, but still meh. So much ap2 out there just hoses them down.

Tactical Terminators do need something. A storm bolter doesn't put out enough firepower for a 5 man unit to be even remotely threatening with shooting, and powerfists, while very powerful, are striking last.

The big reason why terminators were so threatening in 5th was because of assault terminators. The status quo favored them, and while tactical terminators were considered meh, the fact that terminators were getting bought kept their tactical brothers from getting upgrades/points reductions. In addition, there was less AP2/rending/etc. floating around.

Nowadays, between weight of fire and/or low AP weapons, Terminators are very tough to use outside of a land raider team (which comes in at about 450 points), and if you're springing for that you might as well go all out and get the assault terminators.

I think something that could help would be making them cheaper (35 pts or about) and giving them access to two heavy weapons per 5 terminators, with a 3rd allowed at some level (8+ terminators or so). Maybe also giving them access to some special rules or something akin to the way old BT Termies would get special rules. Like allow Tank Hunters to apply, or give Skyfire to heavy weapons, or something.

But unfortunately, at this point we're likely locked in until 7th ed, now that C:SM has come out.

Yup totally agree with all you said.

Tactical Terminators may be one of the more iconic units in 40k. However, try as a might, I fail to see any real use for them.
1/ They fail badly at shooting.
2/ Are soso at assault, as you said they attack last - not cool.
3/ Reasonably easy to kill in the current AP2 environment, or even with massed small arm fire.
4/ Expensive.
All in all a pretty damned useless unit.

1. Storm Bolter is a bit weak for a 40pts model, provided the model was only competent at shooting, which is not where it's strength lies.
2. It also completely ignores armour and instantly kills a Chapter Master.
3. AP2 didn't get more common, it got scarcer. Remember that power weapons of any description used to be AP2. I think recent codices have more AP2 for the simple reason that Terminators and their equivalents simply didn't have enough to be scared of except vast number of attacks. Which you can't get in melee all that easily without presenting too much free combat resolution.
4. Well, yeah, of course. Give a tactical marine a power fist and he's up above 30 points. How many points do you think it's worth not only preventing twice as many shots but also becoming immune to AP3, which is a hell of a lot common than AP2, is worth?

They aren't bad and they aren't useless. It's just that for the longest time ever, with the exception of the Space Wolf codex, Storm Shields have not been priced correctly. Meaning THSS Terminators were/are dirt cheap and isn't a good comparison. Is the balance for Bolter Termies good? No, but this is Warhammer 40k we're talking about, so set against that standard they're pretty much all right and nothing worth losing time about.

AP2 got scarcer? Are you serious? hmm okaaay not sure about your meta. Do you play against Tau or Eldar? Have you actually tried to play with Tacticals recently? Do you play at all?

Tactical Terminators need a more powerful weapon or more weapon upgrades. Is there any particular reason that they can't go into battle with a Multi-melta or plasma cannon? No? That's what I thought. They need more versatility, because right now they compete with assault terminators for the same role, and they'll lose every time.

Also,

1. Mutliators need to cost 5 points less, be able to take a Land Raider as a DC.
2. Thousand Sons need to either cost 5 points less or be better.
3. Flayers need shred or something.

scommy wrote:AP2 got scarcer? Are you serious? hmm okaaay not sure about your meta. Do you play against Tau or Eldar? Have you actually tried to play with Tacticals recently? Do you play at all?

It did. Remember, all power weapons completely ignored armour. Power weapons are very common. Pre-6th, Terminators were easy pickings for just about every dedicated close-combat unit. Assault Terminators could at least use their Storm Shields to protect them until they could use their Thunderhammers, or just use lightning claws and not worry about always striking last.

McNinja wrote:Tactical Terminators need a more powerful weapon or more weapon upgrades. Is there any particular reason that they can't go into battle with a Multi-melta or plasma cannon? No? That's what I thought. They need more versatility, because right now they compete with assault terminators for the same role, and they'll lose every time.

I heartily agree with this. Instead of doing this, though, they created Centurions. I do think that Tactical Terminators aren't supposed to be fire-support, but at the same time, they really do need bigger guns. One assault cannon per squad just doesn't cut it. Terminators are loosely equal to two Tactical Marines stuck together, so I do think they should have access to the heavy weapons that Tactical Marines do, and twice as many at that.

EDIT: Damn, "Devastator Terminators" would be awesome.

 Corennus wrote:

Tactical Terminators.........
Overshadowed by Dark Angel Terminators and most definitely by Grey Knight Terminators.
They should take a leaf out of CSM codex and get a points reduction, and their special weapons shouldn't be so costly.

CSM terminators are cheaper because they dont have chapter tactics or ATSKNF. They are still only 2 points cheaper.
A tactical terminator with storm bolter and power fist is 40 points
An assault terminator with dual lightning claws is 40 points
A CSM termaintor with combibolter and powerfist is 38 points
A CSM termaintor with dual lightning claws is 38 points.

The new CSM codex saw CSM terminators get MORE expensive, not less.

 cbteom wrote:
Chosen: Give them back their infiltrate.
1k Sons: Cheaper and heavy/special weapons. Lets compensate for that slow and purposeful by being able to fire heavy weapons as they footslog (which they almost always do after their rhino is insta-gibbed from under them).
Mutilators: Pff... I really don't know, just remove them from the codex.
Possessed: Make them seriously cheap, and we're actually talking business here.

Also, yeah we need some assault transports. Especially those that wouldn't cost as much as Ahriman.
Drop pods wouldn't hurt either.

Drop-podding Havocs with quadruple meltagun loadout would be insane.

thedavo wrote:

 cbteom wrote:
Chosen: Give them back their infiltrate.
1k Sons: Cheaper and heavy/special weapons. Lets compensate for that slow and purposeful by being able to fire heavy weapons as they footslog (which they almost always do after their rhino is insta-gibbed from under them).
Mutilators: Pff... I really don't know, just remove them from the codex.
Possessed: Make them seriously cheap, and we're actually talking business here.

Also, yeah we need some assault transports. Especially those that wouldn't cost as much as Ahriman.
Drop pods wouldn't hurt either.

Drop-podding Havocs with quadruple meltagun loadout would be insane.

As opposed to Command Squad with 5 meltaguns?

 Happyjew wrote:

the_valeyard6 wrote:

 darthnatus wrote:

the_valeyard6 wrote:

 JhonasX wrote:
Lictors. They just don't do what they're designed for. Use them and you'll get laughed out the door.

that depends, if you have a three man/nid brood and your oponant(playing marines) has a scout squad with snipers in abulding, pinning down your other units, the lictor brood is perfect! but after that, there useless unless there is something close by

the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

... You don't play Tyranids obviously. I don't ever take Genestealers, I only take Gants and Gaunts (and sometimes a Terv as a troop choice) because Genestealers are extremely fragile, I had an entire squad destroyed in a single turn by only a Stormtalon and maybe one other small unit. Hormagaunts have never been taken out in one turn for me (neither have gants for that matter) because while they are slightly less durable they aren't huge targets.

i mainly play nids, but as i said earlier i play on smaller ables instore, so the oponant has less time to shoot them, and if they get shot up easly, put them in squads of five, but piut them near eachother, so when you charge they all do and if one fails the others wont and it also helps as they can only overwatch 1 squad so if they all hit, it can only kill 5

I've had mixed luck with Genestealers, and as Ymgarl are already an Elite choice (of which we have too many), there is no need to make Genestealer Elite. Now, if Ymgarl Geestealers had the same options as regular Genestealers...then they would definitely be Elite and we could get rid of Genestealers.

so far theive been very OP imo, but thats on a smaller board, and if your useing a larger board, meaning larger game, meaning more points, once 2000 is reached thats 12 troops i can use, so if i have the geanstealers in 5 man squads, even if they get 30+ kills, it only takes effect on 5 leaveing the other squads safe, in saying that, kep them close together so when you charge, you charge them all so its all the geanstealers not just 5

BA:
Scouts, tacs, assault marines, devs, vets, command squads (hg), and libbys, all need to be brought in sync point-wise with c:sm. And none of this silly '10man before you can include a weapon of note' on the tacs.
Sanguinary guard need a 30point reduction on the squad.
Mephiston needs either a 4+ invun OR an ap2 strike at initiative weapon. If he has 2 massively significant weaknesses he shouldnt be 250pts.
Sanguinor needs his sword to be ap2 and needs an extra wound to be considered remotely near 275pts and to fit with his fluff. 20 bolter armed marines/ shuriken catapult armed guardians, should NOT be able to take down an unwounded 275pt model with ease. (40 shots, 26 hit, 13 wound, 2 wounds, but if only slightly unlucky - 3 wounds = dead)
Death co jump packs should cost 10pts max.
Whirwind really doesnt gain advantage from being fast so should only cost 5pts more.
Captains and IC in general should have access to items like artificier armour, relic blades etc (not the actual c:sm relics though).
Should have the option of a chapter master for those who play none flesh tearers successor chapters.
Dante should be given eternal warrior to make him worth his points and fluff wise being the oldest space marine, maybe at an increase of 15pts (eternal warrior is worth more but he's already overpriced.)
Death Company Tycho should actually be allowed to join the dc.
Corbulo should be 120pts not 105pts.
Our combi weapons and attack bikes should be increased in cost to reflect c:sm.
Take away ds from landraiders, its silly!

That should really sort out the BA dex. If all the above changes were made then the following would be the BA strengths and weaknesses:

Strengths:
Fast tanks
Priests for fnp and fc
Access to units such as dc, furioso, baal and sang guard.
DoA
Divination
Jump pack troops

Weaknesses:
Pay more for tanks
No units such as tfc, stormtalon, centurians, mof, hunter, stalker etc.
Pay through the nose for fnp and fc if wanted
Lack of anti air (flakk missiles, talon, hunter, stalker)
Only chapter tactic is a 1 in 6 chance of getting red thirst on each squad and doa on certain squads if you want to use it. (Weakest chap tactics imo unless going for a whole doa army).
No access to c:sm relics.
Mephiston and The Sanguinor can't join squads.

That would balance the dex up somewhat.