Depends on what powers he gets, really.

If he gets a nasty combo and gets them to go off Ghaz really doesn't last that long, unfortunately...

Without powers Ghazghkull has a chance of taking out the Swarmlord before losing his 2++ and being obliterated, Once you add Endurance and/or Iron Arm and/or Enfeeble into the mix he will almost definitely lose.

Ghaz wouldn't do well in this scenario. Ork technology is dependant upon their collective psychic energy of believing it will work. If Ghaz is the only Ork, he'd probably just be trapped in a heap of rusty metal. He also wouldn't be able to call a Waaaggghhh!!! for the 2++ as there are no Orks to rally.

Vect and Abbadon would both lose to SL in any arena. SL is bigger, tougher, fast, more skilled at CC, kills instantly, ignores all armor, highly Psychic, SiTW. He wouldn't even need his Bone Sabres, he could easily insta-kill Vect or Abbadon with a punch. Thanks Smash!

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Without powers Ghazghkull has a chance of taking out the Swarmlord before losing his 2++ and being obliterated, Once you add Endurance and/or Iron Arm and/or Enfeeble into the mix he will almost definitely lose.

Swarmy has 5 wounds and a 4++ in CC... the number of wounds needed to get past that is beyond any of the listed characters, and Swarmy hits back hard...

True, but Ghazghkull can last multiple rounds with his 2++ and has a lot of attacks, so he does have a very small chance of winning if the Swarmlord forgets it's a psyker for some reason.

EDIT: Never mind, for some reason I thought Ghazghkull's 2++ lasts for 2 game turns instead of 2 player turns, there's no way he's killing the Swarmlord in 2 rounds of combats with only 6 attacks, psychic powers or not.

Ghaz only has a 2++ when he calls a Waaaggghhh!, but he can't call one when he is the only Ork. So in this scenario vs SL he would have no armor.

 60mm wrote:
Ghaz wouldn't do well in this scenario. Ork technology is dependant upon their collective psychic energy of believing it will work. If Ghaz is the only Ork, he'd probably just be trapped in a heap of rusty metal. He also wouldn't be able to call a Waaaggghhh!!! for the 2++ as there are no Orks to rally.

Vect and Abbadon would both lose to SL in any arena. SL is bigger, tougher, fast, more skilled at CC, kills instantly, ignores all armor, highly Psychic, SiTW. He wouldn't even need his Bone Sabres, he could easily insta-kill Vect or Abbadon with a punch. Thanks Smash!

He'd have to get past Vect's Shadowfield first Sure, he'll do it eventually, but likely not as a one-hit chumpslap. Swarmy makes you reroll inv saves, not ignores them. rerolling a 2+ almost always still ends up being a 2+...

Swarmy is bigger, yes. Size isn't everything It comes with some downsides and has diddly to do with who would win stat-wise.

Vect is only one WS below Swarmy, and hits first as he's faster

He will wound Swarmy on 3's despite his high toughness and ignores his armour also, though Swarmy will still get his 4+ inv.

He is Preferred Enemy VS anyone he likes in addition, and has enough attacks to conceivably kill Swarmy in one turn (on the charge) with amazing rolling, or at least severely maul him before he goes down with average rolls.

SITW does jack vs anyone non-psychic.

Vect also carries a S8 AP 2 pistol which may be a bit of an equaliser if he gets to plug you with it before he charges you, or a pair of big black balls that hurt you and heal him in the same move, again bypassing Swarmy's armour.

(Plus he might well be zipping around in his pimpwagon o death as well, if we assume he has all his gear )

Chances are Swarmy will still kill him, but it's not as one-sided as you make it sound. He'll be hurting.


I'm not as familiar with Abba Dabba doo, as i usually fight him, not use him.

He is lower WS than swarmy, but hits simultaneously as he is just as fast as swarmy. He will be wounding Swarmy on 2's (assuming no Iron Arm is in use) and ignoring his armour with the Talon of Horus, and gets the Shred rule . 4+ inv's for swarmy again. He also has Rage, so will be pretty brutal on the charge, though less so if he is the one being charged unless he gets his Counter Attack off.

He does have a 4+ inv, which will mitigate Swarmy's attacks somewhat, even if he does have to reroll successes. He is also Eternal Warrior, so no one shot pimpslap kills there either.

He too is not psychic, so SITW has no effect.

Odds are a mutual-gib on this fight assuming no wierd awesome combinations of Pyschic powers (it can happen, but is unlikely as they are random). He will piledrive Swarmy with 2+ wounding Ap3 attacks, but will be receiving 2+ wounding Ap 2 attacks in return. Both will be using 4+ invs. Neither has a good chance of killing the other in a single turn, and neither is capable of a one-hit kill on the other.

I would give the slight edge to the Swarmlord in either fight, but victory is still far from certain, and either opponent would maul him badly.












Automatically Appended Next Post:

 60mm wrote:
Ghaz only has a 2++ when he calls a Waaaggghhh!, but he can't call one when he is the only Ork. So in this scenario vs SL he would have no armor.

Who says

He's the prophet of Gork and Mork. They can send him waagh energy any time they like.

Also are we figuring these fights on fluff or on game rules? It does make a difference

Fluffwise Vect would just have a portal open in the sky and smush everywhere but the patch he is standing in with a burning imperial battleship

**edit for clarity**

People have run the numbers, the Swarmlord beats Abbadon. Preferred Enemy and forcing rerolls of invulns is huge. Don't discount psychic powers either, yes they're random but the Swarmlord has 4 of them. 4 rolls on Biomancy means worst case scenario the Swarmlord will have Life Leech, Haemorrhage and 2 of: Iron Arm, Endurance, Warp Speed, Enfeeble, and can cast 2 per turn.

I'm unfamiliar with Vect so I don't know how that fight would go down, does if he have Eternal Warrior? If not he's in trouble.

He doesn't have EW, but he swings first (see my above post) and has a 2+ inv.

So the question now is can he take out the Swarmlord in one turn, even if the Swarmlord has bonus toughess and/or Feel No Pain?

Eldrad tricked them into being on the island in the first place...

 Ascalam wrote:
He doesn't have EW, but he swings first (see my above post) and has a 2+ inv.

SL is very likely to have Warp Speed, I wouldn't count on Vect going first. Vect's downfall here is he needs to land a minimum of 5 wounds (Endurance, Life Leach) before SL lands one hit. If Vect won it'd be pure luck.

Bonus toughness won't help him any, as his sceptre always wounds on 3's anyway. FNP would.

This is all very meatball, and generally rounding up results for both sides. I'm also a little drunk, so math may be a little off...

Assuming no FNP, and amazing rolling vs average rolling.

Vect closes and plugs swarmy with his Blast Pistol. He will almost certainly hit, being BS 8, and will wound him on 2+. No inv save as it only works in CC, so that's one wound gone.

He then swings first, with preferred enemy, and 7 attacks on the charge. He will be hitting on 4's, so this is where average rolls and the scenario i put down of amazing rolling diverge. With amazing rolling he hits with all of them, wounds with all of them, and swarmy fails at least 4 of them. (approx 50 percent (3.5 for his 4++ save).

It's conceivably possible, but unlikely.

Average rolling would dicate roughly one wound lost to blast pistol, about 6 hits allowing for PE, and lets say 4 wounds (possibly 5 with PE, but we'll leave it at 4) - Swarmy will probably block 2 of these, so will be left with two wounds. Swarmy then gets to swing on Vect.

He swings 4 times, hits lets say 3 and any one of these will pulp Vect on a 2+, so we assume they all wound.

Vect's shadowfield blocks them on a 2+. Pretty decent chance they will all be blocked. Rerolling the shadowfield due to swarmy's rules drops this to about 50/50 chance of an attack slipping through i think (meatballing) so we'll assume he kills Vect, leaving him severely wounded, or fails to, in which case Vect will rip him a new one next combat round.

Certain psychic powers alter the math, and i don't have time to mathhammer the precise odds tonight allowing for the basic matchup and then each power combo.

If anyone wants to do so i'd love to read it

It goes worse for vect if he doesn't get to shoot and charge, but odds are Vect's getting the first turn given his rules.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 60mm wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
He doesn't have EW, but he swings first (see my above post) and has a 2+ inv.

SL is very likely to have Warp Speed, I wouldn't count on Vect going first. Vect's downfall here is he needs to land a minimum of 5 wounds (Endurance, Life Leach) before SL lands one hit. If Vect won it'd be pure luck.

You are assuming he has Warp Speed. He might do. He might not. If he does, and rolls maximum, he would top Vect's initiative, but it's not guaranteed. If he doesn't roll max he and Vect are going at the same initiative, or Vect is still going first, though the extra attacks do make it more likely that Vect will die in reprisal.

Endurance would be a PITA, to be sure. It does tip the odds in swarmy's favor.

Life leach would require Swarmy getting to shoot first, before vect closed. Even if he got it off and hit odds are the shadowfield blocks it.

SL needs to land one hit that gets past the 2+ inv. This would indeed mulch Vect.

It's still not that easy with 4 attacks that still have to hit and wound to get past a 2+ inv in one turn, even with preferred enemy.

WS would help here, but again, you can't count on having it.

We are also assuming swarmy autopasses his psychic powers, and never suffers a Perils.


I did say that odds are Swarmy would win regardless. I just don't think it would be the pushover you are claiming.

Vect pulls another one of his "black-holes-in-a-box" and the island, the planet, the surrounding solar system and a good chunk whatever galactic spiral arm that island happens to be in get collapsed into a super-massive singularity.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Vect pulls another one of his "black-holes-in-a-box" and the island, the planet, the surrounding solar system and a good chunk whatever galactic spiral arm that island happens to be in get collapsed into a super-massive singularity.

Including him.

''When the universe ends Vect will still be alive in the nothingness that comes after, floating in an unbreachable bubble of his own deviousness and sense of self satisfaction''
Archon Benzieth, Path of the Incubus.

Vect doesn't lose. Vect either wins or he doesn't fight fair if are going by the fluff, he is more likely to make a pipe bomb out of coconut milk and explode the Swarmlord as he eats it then he is to meet the beast in single combat without cheating. Poncey Eldarz he may be, but he has been D*cking everyone off since before Eldrad hit puberty.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
''When the universe ends Vect will still be alive in the nothingness that comes after, floating in an unbreachable bubble of his own deviousness and sense of self satisfaction''
Archon Benzieth, Path of the Incubus.

Vect doesn't lose. Vect either wins or he doesn't fight fair if are going by the fluff, he is more likely to make a pipe bomb out of coconut milk and explode the Swarmlord as he eats it then he is to meet the beast in single combat without cheating. Poncey Eldarz he may be, but he has been D*cking everyone off since before Eldrad hit puberty.

You know that's not meant to be taken literally, right? It's a metaphor. And I have proof. Deviousness and self satisfaction are not capable of creating a bubble with a breatheable atmosphere and sustenance and whatnot, they are emotional states and personality traits.

Also, coconut milk isn't explosive. And I think you're confusing him with MacGuyver.

AND I AM NOT A GOSH DARNED ELDAR!!!!

Tough call. Ghaz would probably eat everyone save Abby in a 1v1.

Then again, Creed wins.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Tough call. Ghaz would probably eat everyone save Abby in a 1v1.

Then again, Creed wins.

Nobody expects the old warhound behind a palm tree tactic!

You know that's not meant to be taken literally, right? It's a metaphor. And I have proof. Deviousness and self satisfaction are not capable of creating a bubble with a breatheable atmosphere and sustenance and whatnot, they are emotional states and personality traits.

Also, coconut milk isn't explosive. And I think you're confusing him with MacGuyver.

AND I AM NOT A GOSH DARNED ELDAR!!!!

In the warhammer 40k universe don't most emotional states end up turning into warp gods that lay siege to the galaxy? Best not to under estimate what a smug smile can do! Of course its not literal, but taken in context it says that even the Archons of the Dark Eldar believe Vect infallible. He simply has to pull the right plan (or exploding starship) out of his cod piece.

Who says coconut milk isn't explosive? Its the future, practically anything can be explosive...

Anyway, on topic, Vect would lose in a straight up (Fair?) fight. But judging by his fluff, that doesn't seem in character.

Feel the taunting power of my eyebrow....

You can make coconut milk explode

Almost anything can be made to explode when given a little push and/or the right catalyst.




Vect's idea of a fair fight is one in which he sets you up to fong yourself vigorously, then sits in at a ringside seat to watch.

Abaddon and the Swarmlord are the most impressive beat sticks here.
fluffwise If Calgar won then Abaddon should have little to no trouble killing the glorified hive tyrant.
Vect is just a dark elder. He doesn't have the blessing of all the gods, or god knows how much experience, being 25 feet tall, and being a psychic power house.
It comes down to Abaddon and the Swarmlord.

I think Labmouse ran some hardcore mathammer on who "owns who" in 40k. Abby came out on top except VS Swarmy with IA?

As much as I love Ghazzy, 2++ for a player turn dosent cut it

Labmouse - can you run Abby Vs

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/An%27ggrath_the_Unbound#.UjO-TT9jGF9

Does Ang exist fluff/rules-wise anymore ? :(

Vect is the oldest and most experienced one there, he is older Slaanesh. He has never been marked by a wound. He is such a tactical genius he conquered the dark city by ordering his own troops deaths. His orbs absorb wounds as well and would wound everyone on a 4+. He is clearly the winner, plus he's faster then them all anyway so he can hit first always in this case and has crazy stats. He would have already figured out what to do and have an ambush set up and the dias waiting for him to torture the losers for many many lovely years.

 Ratius wrote:
I think Labmouse ran some hardcore mathammer on who "owns who" in 40k. Abby came out on top except VS Swarmy with IA?

As much as I love Ghazzy, 2++ for a player turn dosent cut it

Labmouse - can you run Abby Vs

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/An%27ggrath_the_Unbound#.UjO-TT9jGF9

Does Ang exist fluff/rules-wise anymore ? :(

An'ggrath would slaughter a squad of 5 abaddons in 2 turns. He's now S: D with 10 attacks standard, more attacks on each 6 to hit, and more attacks on the charge.

An'ggrath would slaughter a squad of 5 abaddons in 2 turns. He's now S: D with 10 attacks standard, more attacks on each 6 to hit, and more attacks on the charge.

What rules / book is in these days TSK?
I couldnt find him.

bigginhouse wrote:
Vect is the oldest and most experienced one there, he is older Slaanesh. He has never been marked by a wound. He is such a tactical genius he conquered the dark city by ordering his own troops deaths. His orbs absorb wounds as well and would wound everyone on a 4+. He is clearly the winner, plus he's faster then them all anyway so he can hit first always in this case and has crazy stats. He would have already figured out what to do and have an ambush set up and the dias waiting for him to torture the losers for many many lovely years.

Swarmlord insta gibs him with a single successful hit. Abbadon simply has a much more monstrous stat line with S4 & T5 and a 2+. With his daemon weapon he can go for mass attacks and off Bael in 1 turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:

An'ggrath would slaughter a squad of 5 abaddons in 2 turns. He's now S: D with 10 attacks standard, more attacks on each 6 to hit, and more attacks on the charge.

What rules / book is in these days TSK?
I couldnt find him.

I think he's in the new apoc book. I remember someone mentioned to me he's in the new apoc book. I don't have it though.

Labmouse, where are you..........?

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

bigginhouse wrote:
Vect is the oldest and most experienced one there, he is older Slaanesh. He has never been marked by a wound. He is such a tactical genius he conquered the dark city by ordering his own troops deaths. His orbs absorb wounds as well and would wound everyone on a 4+. He is clearly the winner, plus he's faster then them all anyway so he can hit first always in this case and has crazy stats. He would have already figured out what to do and have an ambush set up and the dias waiting for him to torture the losers for many many lovely years.

Swarmlord insta gibs him with a single successful hit. Abbadon simply has a much more monstrous stat line with S4 & T5 and a 2+. With his daemon weapon he can go for mass attacks and off Bael in 1 turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:

An'ggrath would slaughter a squad of 5 abaddons in 2 turns. He's now S: D with 10 attacks standard, more attacks on each 6 to hit, and more attacks on the charge.

What rules / book is in these days TSK?
I couldnt find him.

I think he's in the new apoc book. I remember someone mentioned to me he's in the new apoc book. I don't have it though.

The operative word there being 'successful'...

He has a 2+ inv to contend with. See above posts

He doesn't NEED a monstrous statline. He'll be wounding you on 3's anyway, and soaking your hits with superior technology

Sure, he dies fast if someone wounds him, but that's the trick... getting that wound in.

 Ascalam wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

bigginhouse wrote:
Vect is the oldest and most experienced one there, he is older Slaanesh. He has never been marked by a wound. He is such a tactical genius he conquered the dark city by ordering his own troops deaths. His orbs absorb wounds as well and would wound everyone on a 4+. He is clearly the winner, plus he's faster then them all anyway so he can hit first always in this case and has crazy stats. He would have already figured out what to do and have an ambush set up and the dias waiting for him to torture the losers for many many lovely years.

Swarmlord insta gibs him with a single successful hit. Abbadon simply has a much more monstrous stat line with S4 & T5 and a 2+. With his daemon weapon he can go for mass attacks and off Bael in 1 turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:

An'ggrath would slaughter a squad of 5 abaddons in 2 turns. He's now S: D with 10 attacks standard, more attacks on each 6 to hit, and more attacks on the charge.

What rules / book is in these days TSK?
I couldnt find him.

I think he's in the new apoc book. I remember someone mentioned to me he's in the new apoc book. I don't have it though.

The operative word there being 'successful'...

He has a 2+ inv to contend with. See above posts

He doesn't NEED a monstrous statline. He'll be wounding you on 3's anyway, and soaking your hits with superior technology

Sure, he dies fast if someone wounds him, but that's the trick... getting that wound in.

Vect has a 2+ invul? He's T3 and his armor is garbage.
Whatever Abaddon will actually take a successful wound, every 6 wounds with that 2+ armor. He can also insta kill Vect with the daemon weapon, or just overload him with piles of wounds at S: 5.
Swarmlord will kill Vect regardless due to every wound inflicting instant death. Vect isn't the oldest simply due to being Dark Eldar which are among the newest factions. They didn't exist until 10k ago, and I assume Vect isn't as old as the Dark Eldar race. I think Abaddon is actually older due to being 10000+ years old. The Swarmlord is completely unique and is reincarnated with the same consciousness, personality and well "soul". He's by far the oldest of any of the contenders. In all likelihood he's over a million years old.

no, vect is older than abaddon. vect was around during the fall, he was one of the original DE to escape into the webway.

id post source, but i cant remember exactly where it was. i think it was the codex, either 5th ed or 3rd ed.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

bigginhouse wrote:
Vect is the oldest and most experienced one there, he is older Slaanesh. He has never been marked by a wound. He is such a tactical genius he conquered the dark city by ordering his own troops deaths. His orbs absorb wounds as well and would wound everyone on a 4+. He is clearly the winner, plus he's faster then them all anyway so he can hit first always in this case and has crazy stats. He would have already figured out what to do and have an ambush set up and the dias waiting for him to torture the losers for many many lovely years.

Swarmlord insta gibs him with a single successful hit. Abbadon simply has a much more monstrous stat line with S4 & T5 and a 2+. With his daemon weapon he can go for mass attacks and off Bael in 1 turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:

An'ggrath would slaughter a squad of 5 abaddons in 2 turns. He's now S: D with 10 attacks standard, more attacks on each 6 to hit, and more attacks on the charge.

What rules / book is in these days TSK?
I couldnt find him.

I think he's in the new apoc book. I remember someone mentioned to me he's in the new apoc book. I don't have it though.

The operative word there being 'successful'...

He has a 2+ inv to contend with. See above posts

He doesn't NEED a monstrous statline. He'll be wounding you on 3's anyway, and soaking your hits with superior technology

Sure, he dies fast if someone wounds him, but that's the trick... getting that wound in.

Vect has a 2+ invul? He's T3 and his armor is garbage.
Whatever Abaddon will actually take a successful wound, every 6 wounds with that 2+ armor. He can also insta kill Vect with the daemon weapon, or just overload him with piles of wounds at S: 5.
Swarmlord will kill Vect regardless due to every wound inflicting instant death. Vect isn't the oldest simply due to being Dark Eldar which are among the newest factions. They didn't exist until 10k ago, and I assume Vect isn't as old as the Dark Eldar race. I think Abaddon is actually older due to being 10000+ years old. The Swarmlord is completely unique and is reincarnated with the same consciousness, personality and well "soul". He's by far the oldest of any of the contenders. In all likelihood he's over a million years old.

He is indeed T 3. He's an Eldar. T3 comes standard Vect predates the fall IIRC, which happened well before the horus Heresy, so he's older than Abbadon. A lot of the older archons predate the fall, as does Urien. They are effectively immortal. The Craftworld Eldar didn't exist that long ago either, because they and the Dark Eldar were jsut the Eldar before that. They predate the faction.

His armour is 4+ 6++ - not bad for DE, plus a 2++ Shadowfield. Sure it's not 2+ 3++, but it gets the job done. Since when is a 2++ save garbage?

Abbadon will pretty much beat Vect hands down in a fight. I'm not denying that, as he has lots of attacks which will wound on 2's. He is much better at punching through a 2++ save due to the mass of attacks he can pile on.

Swarmlord, not so much. He has fewer attacks, so less chance of cracking the shadowfield and killing Vect that turn (see above posts). He only needs one wound to get through to tag Vect, but just because he can kill him in one blow doesn't mean he will that round. Meanwhile Vect is hitting first, generally, wounding on 3's and ignoring swarmy's armour. Swarmy will likely still win, but he'll know he was in a fight.

mathhammer will only give you the average anyway. I've seen a shadowfield archon die to the first hit in a game, or last the entire game under heavy fire without losing the field. Average gives him 5 saves before he dies, which might well see him into a second round of CC with swarmy.

I'm not going to rehash the same explanation every time someone says 'but Vect will get instakilled with a single punch', as it gets old. Read my earlier posts, or ignore them and go your own way

 Ascalam wrote:
Average rolling would dicate roughly one wound lost to blast pistol, about 6 hits allowing for PE, and lets say 4 wounds (possibly 5 with PE, but we'll leave it at 4) - Swarmy will probably block 2 of these, so will be left with two wounds. Swarmy then gets to swing on Vect.

7 WS 8 attacks with PE will not get 6 hits against the Swarmlord, so it would be more like 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1.5 unsaved. So it would take Vect about 3 rounds average to kill the Swarmlord in close combat, 5 with Endurance up.

The Swarmlord meanwhile will make 4 attacks, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved, Swarmlord kills Vect in 1 round on average.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
fluffwise If Calgar won then Abaddon should have little to no trouble killing the glorified hive tyrant... It comes down to Abaddon and the Swarmlord.

Calgar has fought the Swarmlord 3 times, twice he was completely owned and only survived because his honour guard carried him while feeding themselves to the Swarmlord to buy the others time to escape. The only time Calgar has bested the Swarmlord is on Ichar IV, where led a drop pod assault that "ended with the Chapter Master slaying the Swarmlord in single combat". Considering how pathetic his track record is against the Swarmlord I can only assume that by "ended" they mean "Calgar fed most of his forces to Swarmlord to weaken it then sucker-punched the already mortally wounded Tyranid, claiming all the glory for himself".

As far as Abaddon vs. Swarmlord goes on the tabletop, I'll run the numbers.

EDIT: Swarmlord gets the charge, gives itself Preferred Enemy and forgets it's a psyker = 3.89 hits, 3 wounds, averages 2.25 unsaved wounds
Abaddon gets Counter-attack, strikes at same initiative with the Talon of Horus = 3 hits, 2.92 wounds, 1.46 unsaved. (Swarmlord: 3.54 | Abaddon: 1.75)
Next round, Swarmlord gives itself Preferred Enemy, still forgets psychic powers exist = 3.11 hits, 2.42 wounds, 1.81 unsaved.
Abaddon strikes back = 2.5 hits, 2.43 wounds, 1.22 unsaved. (Swarmlord: 2.32 | Abaddon: dead)

The Swarmlord will defeat Abaddon without psychic powers, with psychic powers Abaddon doesn't stand a chance.

And for the record, the Swarmlord is the oldest. It is as old as the Nid race itself. And that could be untold eons. Their race could make the Old Ones like toddlers for all we know.