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Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 15:57:38


Post by: legoburner


I was at gencon this year and I had a good chat with the nice people at the wargames factory booth. For those who dont know, Wargames Factory have a small company in the US but their main base of operations is in mainland China. My wife and I had a trip planned to Hong Kong in September and when I mentioned this to them, I was warmly invited to go and have a look around, take some photos and put it up here on Dakka.

As most people have noticed, Wargames Factory are handling quite a few projects at the moment, with Dreamforge being their flagship range for their quality and abilities.

So without further ado, here's how the trip went down, and here is how wargaming plastic sprues are manufactured:



Here is the ferry to China approaching while still in Hong Kong. Apologies for the lack of relevance to wargaming but I love that skyline so much I share it at any excuse I get Also proof that I braved a mainland Chinese ferry to get you this article!

After a ferry ride and then a silent car ride from a friendly person who spoke no English, I found myself here (apologies for the blur):


The factory is fairly large by wargaming standards. They have a large team of digital sculptors:


And a large team of tooling specialists (only some shown here):


I had to block out anything that was obvious to see as it was quite apparent what they were working on and I did not want to be unwittingly responsible for any spoilers.

The above shows the basic process - a model is sculpted digitally (either in house or externally), or is sculpted organically and then scanned and cleaned up. Next, the model must be cut up into parts that can be made in a 2 part tool. A tool consists of two halves which must pull apart easily, so if you have any undercuts it will simply jam or shred the plastic inside when you try to open it up. The most complicated bit of any wargaming model design is getting those undercuts handled and it is why plastic sculptors have such a slow turnaround relative to resin or PVC sculpts. Once the model is sculpted and split into parts, it then has to be laid out on a sprue. A sprue must be balanced so that when liquid (hot!) plastic flows into it, it flows evenly and pushes out all of the air.

Once the layout has been designed, it is time to cut into large chunks of Steel or Aluminium. A single tool is good for 50,000-500,000 shots, so once you've made it, it will last a very very long time.

Here's some of the equipment used for cutting and some cutting in progress on various types of machines (blurry to protect IP):











You can cut by milling out the metal (as the above pictures show) or by using electrodes which burn into the steel, giving much more detail but requiring more cleanup after tooling and a more complicated setup. Most people use a combination of the two but Wargames Factory try to focus on milling due to the higher overall quality you get as a result of it. The metal has to be perfect quality or you end up with strange things happening like bubbles and burned out areas, so the raw material costs for the metal are very high.

Here's some post-machine cleanup in progress:



And here are some of the tools that they have made to date. You can see both halves of a tool quite clearly and Dreamforge's stuff is in there somewhere too:



Once a tool has been made, tested, adjusted and tested some more, it is ready for use. All you need for that are some plastic injection moulding machines of which Wargames Factory has a decent number and range. They look like this:



Simply insert the tool, get the technician to operate the machine and out pops perfect sprue after sprue after sprue. Once you have them, time for packaging and shipping which looks like this:





Wargames Factory kindly bought me lunch at a tasty local Chinese place, then we spoke about wargames and the community for a good deal of the day. I missed the last Ferry back to Hong Kong so we ate at a nice Italian restaurant and then I was driven all the way back to the border. Thanks very much to my kind hosts for a real experience - it was amazing being able to see a functional factory in the workshop of the world and is an experience that I'll be able to refer to for my whole life as I was fortunate to be in the right time and place to witness a little bit of China's continual industrialisation first hand.

I thought I'd take a moment to outline plastics in a bit more detail as well, as we often see people on here getting very confused and a single accurate point of reference would probably be quite useful. I've spoken to a lot of people in the industry and any numbers I quote are generalisations, not the prices for any specific manufacturers, including Wargames Factory.

The headline figure that most people talk about is how GW sell a $40 boxed set which has about 50c worth of plastic in it, so I thought it would be helpful to break that cost down a bit. An average plastic tool for a single wargaming infantry sprue runs $8,000-$17,500 (depending on detail, bits, etc). Sculpting for plastic on top of that is expensive due to the highly qualified people needed, often salaried, but more often outsourced for thousands of dollars per model. Manufacturing requires either heavy equipment and all the costs that go with it, or you have to outsource it to someone who takes their cut. As such, price per sprue can be anything from $0.80 - $3.50. Add on shipping, marketing, warehousing, distribution and retail costs, etc and that $40 gets cut down very quickly, even if the raw material price is pennies per sprue. Typically 5000+ copies of a sprue have to be sold just to break even. Beyond that things become quite profitable quite quickly, but it is a massive gamble for non-GW wargaming companies (like mantic and hawk wargames) to take so we should certainly support those who take the risks and be thankful to kickstarter for enabling so many companies to take a chance where before they would have only been able to dream about it.

People also quibble a lot about materials these days as there are so many options out there, so here are the main ones:

Plastic - Polysterene is the stuff that Games Workshop use on their sprues, specifically HIPS. This is the only type of plastic that can be glued by plastic glue (polysterene cement).

Plastic - Restic/PVC - This is the stuff that CMON, PP, Mantic, Fantasy Flight (X-Wing) and many others are using as a plastic on a lot of their stuff. Technically it is plastic, but it is not the same that we are used to with sprues. The detail tends to be a bit softer as the material shrinks a lot when it sets, warping sharp edges on things like weapons and bending staffs and swords if it dries at an uneven pace. Cleaning up mould lines can be tough. There are chemicals that will clean mould lines but they give off poison fumes so are not readily recommended by companies that use it.

Plastic - ABS - This is what Lego use for their plastic. I've not seen it used on any wargaming models that I can think of, but some model tanks and similar use it.

Resin - There are a huge variety of resins and even more ways to create things with them. They are usually more brittle than other materials, require competent casters to prevent bubbles and issues, and have a very high per-model cost with moulds decaying over as few as 100 models or so, leading to high moulding costs. Most resins shrink a little when setting as well, but by much less than PVC. A single resin model can cost as much as $7-8 to produce.

Metal - There are lots of metals in use as well, typically tin or pewter alloys, with lead being used back in the day and by some small producers still. Metal can be tough to clean but is easier than resin to work with. The raw material cost can be higher than most resin so it has been phased out by most producers. Metal shrinks a bit when setting as well. Final detail is typically less than resin due to shrinkage but better than PVC.

I hope the above has been interesting and informative and thanks again for the tour of Wargames Factory!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:00:45


Post by: Kanluwen


That's really cool Lego. Thanks for sharing!

Also that skyline is magnificent.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:01:13


Post by: pretre


Great post!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:04:09


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


Great post, thanks!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:08:01


Post by: Shandara


Nice!

This setup is quite high-tech and clean.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:10:25


Post by: Alfndrate


In regards to the ABS plastic that Lego are made from I believe (I believe) that some of the talks that Wyrd were doing involved them settling on that type of plastic for their plastic models.

Fantastic writeup Lego! It was really cool seeing WGF 'in the flesh'


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:11:25


Post by: legoburner


Wyrd's stuff is Polystyrene for sure - I saw and handled it at gencon.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:13:32


Post by: Alfndrate


 legoburner wrote:
Wyrd's stuff is Polystyrene for sure - I saw and handled it at gencon.

I know, experience wants me to say that as well (as I own quite a few wyrd plastics), but I'm trying to remember where I read what plastics they said they used. EricJ over on Wyrd's forums has a breakdown of the plastics in the business and which ones they were looking at.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:13:43


Post by: Chris_P


Thank you for the post. Also, the skyline is pretty good, but that ferry is more impressive to me.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:14:59


Post by: Ifurita


Excellent post. Quite informative and interesting.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:19:25


Post by: dakkajet


Great post and I loved the facts!
Thanks for sharing!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:24:58


Post by: necrondog99


That was excellent and answered many of my questions.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:35:49


Post by: The Shadow


Awesome article, thanks for sharing, very informative! Sounds like your hosts were very nice indeed. At the risk of sounding corny, it's always good to see such kindness in the world.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:51:08


Post by: gossipmeng


The points in the article are one of the main reasons I don't complain too much about pricing (even if GW is well established and has high profit margins).

Too many people out there think you just buy a machine, push a button and marines start spewing out.

Calibrating these machines and managing miscasts can be a nightmare for any miniature company.

- Thanks for sharing


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 16:59:09


Post by: Xenocidal Maniac


Wow, this is great. Thanks a lot for sharing.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 17:00:21


Post by: RiTides


This was fantastic and informative, thanks lego!! Exalted


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 17:02:42


Post by: Pacific


Very interesting, thanks for posting! Complex looking equipment, looks like they are making Terminator T-800 CPUs in the one shot!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 17:07:27


Post by: Alpharius


So, they didn't show or tell you anything that would then force them to kill you, so that's good!

Thanks for sharing!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 17:19:45


Post by: notprop


 Alpharius wrote:
So, they didn't show or tell you anything that would then force them to kill you, so that's good!

Thanks for sharing!


Or they tried and couldn't defeat him.......ergo the midnight flit to the border.

A most excellent report/piece of espionaging. Thanks for sharing Lego.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 17:22:21


Post by: Bat Manuel


Nice article.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 17:31:27


Post by: Skalk Bloodaxe


Very informative, thank you for posting that. It offered me a much different (i.e. educated) perspective on pricing based on design / manufacturing / distro. I'll never be 'happy' about shelling out (insert retail price here) but at least I know a reasonable amount of the purchase price makes into the pocket of people doing the grunt work.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 18:06:44


Post by: PsychoticStorm


That was quite interesting, thanks for that.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 18:08:27


Post by: crazyK


Enjoyable read, thanks for posting and sharing the pictures.

I would love to know more about the business side of things as to what goes into determining choice of materials. I can assume it factors in sales volume, but it's interesting to say the least.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 18:20:32


Post by: Harriticus


Underneath the factory I imagine it went a lot like this




Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 18:29:23


Post by: silent25


Thanks for the report Legoburner! Take it you were in Canton then? Was in Hong Kong over a decade ago with a friend who grew up there and we traveled to Canton which was across the bay on that type of ferry. Very cool and fast ride.

Very impressed with what I have heard and seen about WGF since it was taken over by the owner of the Chinese factory. It's clear he sees the value in the market and while a niche, it can be a profitable niche. Looks like they will be the go to manufacturer for any small company wanting plastic figs.

Also thanks for the cost breakdown for of the sprues. Having to sell 5000+ copies of a sprue is not really easy for a lot of companies. Heck, some of the numbers from the CHS lawsuit showed GW doesn't even sell 5000+ units for some of their Fantasy kits.

*edit* Just curious, did you have your digital camera checked when you came and went from the country? At a previous company I worked for, we were forbidden from bring and digital items (cameras, phones, laptops) with us to China for the fear of malware.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 18:30:20


Post by: Ouze


Great post. I could read stuff like this all day.

There is a video here from the Proxie Models guy that shows you how the injection molding machine works:




Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 18:40:28


Post by: silent25


Just wanted to add one more figure to the sprue calculation costs. Back in 2010, Poots of Kingdom Death posted to the Forthers United forum with some production questions. He let it be know he was paying his sculptors $1,000 to $2,000 a fig and a similar number for concept art. He was roundly mocked for that number and told he was being ripped off. Sadly, Forthers migrated to a new forum this year and the thread was lost.

Given Poots is now sitting on one of the most successful Tabletop kickstarters out there and is able to transition to Polysterene plastic, I would say the investments were worth it.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 19:01:20


Post by: NoseGoblin


Awesome! Thank you for posting... almost feels like I was there and it is great to see some shots of the shop. FYI Poots was not exaggerating, when I shopped for digi sculptors to see if it was a viable option to pull in some help, I came back with $1500 to $2500 for a digital sculpt of a standard trooper model. I would hate to think what the bill would have been for something like my Leviathans or APC model.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 19:02:22


Post by: RiTides


Lucky that you could do them yourself, then

Must be cool to see your own work in the factory like that! Now it just needs to make its' way from there into my hands


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 19:22:48


Post by: edlowe


Fantastic post!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 19:28:57


Post by: legoburner


silent25 wrote:*edit* Just curious, did you have your digital camera checked when you came and went from the country? At a previous company I worked for, we were forbidden from bring and digital items (cameras, phones, laptops) with us to China for the fear of malware.


Nope, leaving on the Hong Kong crossing is very easy - the border between HK and Shenzhen is pretty straightforward due to the sheer volume of business traffic there.

NoseGoblin wrote:Awesome! Thank you for posting... almost feels like I was there and it is great to see some shots of the shop. FYI Poots was not exaggerating, when I shopped for digi sculptors to see if it was a viable option to pull in some help, I came back with $1500 to $2500 for a digital sculpt of a standard trooper model. I would hate to think what the bill would have been for something like my Leviathans or APC model.


Thought you'd like it. I'm really sorry for getting all those cheetos in your leviathan tools - I just wanted a cheeto crusader. If anyone gets orange dust on their models it is my fault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, GW used to be cool and would do tours like this more than a decade ago. Nothing now though - but if people from GW are reading (as I bet they are), feel free to PM me and invite me to nottingham.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 20:05:52


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


Great informative post


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 20:08:23


Post by: Ahtman


I think it is nice that they unchained the employees for your visit. Very considerate of them.



Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 20:26:23


Post by: Talizvar


 Alpharius wrote:
So, they didn't show or tell you anything that would then force them to kill you, so that's good!
Thanks for sharing!
You would be surprised how in certain industries that statement is not far from the truth.
When an auditor goes to review a facility and does not come back and you wonder if he found something that would make the company pull the product and then he go {poof!}


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 20:29:50


Post by: silent25


 NoseGoblin wrote:
Awesome! Thank you for posting... almost feels like I was there and it is great to see some shots of the shop. FYI Poots was not exaggerating, when I shopped for digi sculptors to see if it was a viable option to pull in some help, I came back with $1500 to $2500 for a digital sculpt of a standard trooper model. I would hate to think what the bill would have been for something like my Leviathans or APC model.


Yea, not surprised at the number. Given that a talented 3D sculptor who can convert concept art into a 3D model can easily be employed in the Video Game industry. Though artists are at the low end of pay in the video game industry, that is still top pay for a lot of traditional game companies.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 21:06:48


Post by: TheMostSlyFox


Still no reason to pay more than what other companies want for equal quantity and quality in material :/


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 21:15:56


Post by: jafabian37


 Alfndrate wrote:
In regards to the ABS plastic that Lego are made from I believe (I believe) that some of the talks that Wyrd were doing involved them settling on that type of plastic for their plastic models.

Fantastic writeup Lego! It was really cool seeing WGF 'in the flesh'


Actually, the problem with ABS- good luck trying to glue it with plastic cement.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 21:31:22


Post by: Cyporiean


jafabian37 wrote:
 Alfndrate wrote:
In regards to the ABS plastic that Lego are made from I believe (I believe) that some of the talks that Wyrd were doing involved them settling on that type of plastic for their plastic models.

Fantastic writeup Lego! It was really cool seeing WGF 'in the flesh'


Actually, the problem with ABS- good luck trying to glue it with plastic cement.


Yes, Polystyrene Cement only works on Polystyrene for some inexplicable reason.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 21:35:33


Post by: Sean_OBrien


But plastic cement works fine with ABS...

http://www.amazon.com/Ambroid-Pro-Weld/dp/B0035Y26HS

There are solvent cements which work fine on all sorts of plastics, and ABS isnt even that hard to get a compatible cement with. For fun, glue a kids LEGOs together and watch them try to get them apart....no, I guess not.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 21:36:18


Post by: chromedog


Plasticweld works on ABS, HIPS and certain PVCs (more aggressive solvents at higher percentages).

But most other poly cements won't touch the stuff, agreed.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/16 23:54:47


Post by: Largeblastmarker


Thanks for the interesting post lego!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 00:23:37


Post by: morfydd


Very nice..love the pics you could take ..even with the blur outs ..fairly informative as well..


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 02:07:33


Post by: Relapse


Excellent thread that leaves me jealous.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 04:10:34


Post by: Jehan-reznor


Thanks for the post, no inside info on what was about to ship from wargasm factory?


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 04:44:44


Post by: Schmapdi


Very interesting - thanks for posting!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 07:16:11


Post by: StyleXHobby


Great post, thanks for this.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 07:52:37


Post by: Azazelx


Great post. Thanks for sharing this!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 13:33:12


Post by: theflyingarrow


ahh the joy of living in hong kong


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 14:14:30


Post by: bbb


Awesome post! While there did you see anything that was super secret and awesome? Not trying to get you to spill about anything, but just curious if there's some cool stuff coming up.

What companies do we know of that are working with WF now? Dreamforge, WWX, Kingdom Death, Malifaux... Not sure what else.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 14:22:33


Post by: ghpoobah


Lego,

Awesome post, love the fact we got to see some (blurry) photo's.

Also, good to get a breakdown of costs to put the prices we're paying for shinies into perspective.

Exalted


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 14:25:31


Post by: Forar


 Alfndrate wrote:
 legoburner wrote:
Wyrd's stuff is Polystyrene for sure - I saw and handled it at gencon.

I know, experience wants me to say that as well (as I own quite a few wyrd plastics), but I'm trying to remember where I read what plastics they said they used. EricJ over on Wyrd's forums has a breakdown of the plastics in the business and which ones they were looking at.


I distinctly recall Wyrd saying they were using ABS plastic as well. (fake edit: their blogs are gone, but in a forum post Eric says that it's not 100% ABS, but a hybrid).

I believe Ninja Division/Palladium Books have also said they were going to use ABS for their line of Robotech miniatures.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 15:50:25


Post by: legoburner


 bbb wrote:
Awesome post! While there did you see anything that was super secret and awesome? Not trying to get you to spill about anything, but just curious if there's some cool stuff coming up.

What companies do we know of that are working with WF now? Dreamforge, WWX, Kingdom Death, Malifaux... Not sure what else.


They were pretty decent about keeping things secret that need to be secret. Only stuff that was pre-authorised to be shared was shown to me and while I know a few interesting things now, it is not in my place to say except there are lots more goodies on the way from them.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 16:28:39


Post by: Ratius


Very interesting reading, thanks for sharing.
Interesting to hear what Lego was made from plastic-wise.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 17:14:21


Post by: Alpharius


 Ratius wrote:
Very interesting reading, thanks for sharing.
Interesting to hear what Lego was made from plastic-wise.


I think Lego is a regular human, originating from a Mom and a Dad and...oh, wait, you mean the block toy!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 18:06:42


Post by: Eilif


Great post Legoburner. I always like seeing these kind of behind the scenes looks. For those that like this, I recommend looking up Reaper's factory tour or proxie model's plastic molding wakthrough on Utube.

chromedog wrote:Plasticweld works on ABS, HIPS and certain PVCs (more aggressive solvents at higher percentages).

But most other poly cements won't touch the stuff, agreed.


I've not tried PVC, but it has also been my experience that Plastruct PlasticWeld bonds a number of different plastics including ABS and Polystyrene. Just make sure you're using the Orange label that specifically says "Plastruct Plastic Weld". The White labeled "Plastruct Bondene" only works on Polystyrene.

Forar wrote:
 Alfndrate wrote:
 legoburner wrote:
Wyrd's stuff is Polystyrene for sure - I saw and handled it at gencon.

I know, experience wants me to say that as well (as I own quite a few wyrd plastics), but I'm trying to remember where I read what plastics they said they used. EricJ over on Wyrd's forums has a breakdown of the plastics in the business and which ones they were looking at.


I distinctly recall Wyrd saying they were using ABS plastic as well. (fake edit: their blogs are gone, but in a forum post Eric says that it's not 100% ABS, but a hybrid).

I believe Ninja Division/Palladium Books have also said they were going to use ABS for their line of Robotech miniatures.


I wonder what is behind companies using ABS. I'd heard that it was even more expensive to produce the molds, etc than Polystyrene. Maybe it's a certain blend?


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 20:36:18


Post by: Forar


I dunno, but the plastic models I've gotten from Wyrd are lightweight and very strong. Generally go together without too much muss or fuss using GF9 glue.

Has taught me that 'sawing' pieces off the sprue with my hobby blade isn't the way to go, definitely picking up a set of snips before our giant Robotech boxes arrive at the door.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 22:21:32


Post by: kenofyork


As a lifelong member of the American blue collar middle class, I object to this. China charges massive tariffs on imported goods and manipulates the currency rate to undersell US companies. What you are seeing should be visible in your neighborhood. You or your kids should be the ones setting there designing stuff instead of working in McDonalds. We have scores of college graduates who would love to be doing intern work in shops like this. Instead the Chinese are having great jobs while we work vicariously through them by reading this on Dakka.

Thanks kickstarter. You suck.


BTW. Proxie models is working with local art students to help mentor them in turning ideas in to products. I will be giving a talk to some students in the near future and have some designs in the works done by them.



Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/17 23:28:46


Post by: chromedog


 Eilif wrote:

I wonder what is behind companies using ABS. I'd heard that it was even more expensive to produce the molds, etc than Polystyrene. Maybe it's a certain blend?


You can use ABS in an injection moulding setup instead of polystyrene - it is STILL a styrene (just not the same sort. Kind of a cousin to HIPS). The moulds would be the same as for the HIPS injection moulded stuff.

It's just a harder, more durable product that will need to be primed before painting as paint will not stick to it out of the press (part of the chemistry of the compound - not because of mould release or lubricant/coolants).


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/18 00:30:06


Post by: Deunstephe


Amazing to see how it works. Thank you.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/18 02:05:47


Post by: KalashnikovMarine


Good stuff, I was just saying to coworkers how I'd love a how stuff works episode about how plastic crack is made.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/18 02:12:06


Post by: Doomsdave


Believe it or not, most of the equipment in those photos and the general process (with a few additions) you outline are how you get contact lenses as well.

Great little photo-essay. Thanks.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/18 15:00:01


Post by: Pellegrino


Thanks for posting


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/18 22:48:21


Post by: Casey's Law


Thanks Lego, always a pleasure to read your threads.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/19 02:27:33


Post by: tinfoil


Exalted. Because this report was most excellently and exceptionally exaltational.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/19 02:34:44


Post by: Mooks


Excellent post Lego.
I was lucky enough to vist FN in Belgium who make Weapons and this post has brought back fond memories of that trip.

The information in your post was excellent and will be of great benifit to our community.

And yes HK is a fantastic city. Did you get to take a trip to the peak and enjoy the views?


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/19 03:33:57


Post by: Happygrunt


An excellent post! That was a really cool look into the world of plastic crack manufacturing. Thanks Legoburner!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/19 10:05:27


Post by: Orlanth


Thats the way to invest in Chinese production.

1. Choose Hong Kong
2. Own or part own the manufacturing plant.
3. Control production.

the alternate:

1. Dont choose Hong Kong
2. Be a client of a disinterested large scale plastics manufacturing complex.
3. Get shafted, a lot.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/19 12:31:00


Post by: RiTides


Except that there's no company doing wargame plastics in Hong Kong and probably none capable of such. WGF has clearly made a large investment to serve this market, and they'll only get better. Now if they can just catch up on their queue!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/19 13:48:08


Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin


A very interesting read. Makes me feel a little bit.. (really little) better for buying all this GW plastic this year.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/19 23:50:59


Post by: pancakeonions


Neat read, thanks for posting.

I've heard that GW does all this in the UK - would that also help (to some degree, anyway!) to explain why their costs are higher? I can't recall where I heard this, so I'm not quite sure it's true...!

Anyone have any insight on how they go about things?


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/20 03:36:05


Post by: Yonan


Knew the basics of production, but was great to see it all in order like that. <3 WGF, looking forward to more plastacrack goodness from them!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/20 05:44:34


Post by: SpaceMonk


Very cool. Thank you


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/20 06:36:04


Post by: legoburner


pancakeonions wrote:
Neat read, thanks for posting.

I've heard that GW does all this in the UK - would that also help (to some degree, anyway!) to explain why their costs are higher? I can't recall where I heard this, so I'm not quite sure it's true...!

Anyone have any insight on how they go about things?


GW do something very similar. They use the same software for sculpting digitally, but at least 1 year ago were still doing about 40% of their sculpting the traditional physical way (at 3-up), then scanning them in and cleaning them up on the computer. I am not sure if GW cut the tools in house or not - I know that they outsource the vast majority of their tool layout design at the very least. GW do have plastic injection moulding machines on site, and therefore the tools go back to Nottingham and the plastic is produced and packaged there.

The major inflexible costs are sculpting, the sculpting software (5 figures per machine and multiple thousands per year 'service' contract), tooling engineers and raw materials. Only the people would be more expensive for GW, the rest would be the same.as elsewhere, and if they outsource the tooling engineering to China, that just means that they have higher sculpting prices and that is all. Running the machines is a negligible difference compared to the US or China as shipping expenses more than make up the difference in electricity and maintenance prices at the volume GW operate from my understanding.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/20 14:09:20


Post by: Casey's Law


On the subject of GW plastic process. I've seen pictures of the new marine kits now and they look massively improved. Crisper, cleaner and generally a prettier surface. Any idea what changed? I'm wondering whether they have improved the machinery, material, the designs or the process? Maybe it's a mix.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/20 17:24:54


Post by: Reecius


What an awesome trip!


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/20 20:15:54


Post by: chris_valera


This is a great trip report and a lot of good info.

I'm just wondering - what was the plastic the Starship Troopers models were made of? ABS?

It's interesting to see how Kingdom Death is already doing sprues after just one kickstarter, yet established games like Battletech and Infinity are still using metals. Battletech probably because IWM has the license, but the Infinity starter boxes and TAGs should really be plastic.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/20 23:40:07


Post by: Pacific


We've heard from Corvus Belli that they won't go plastic as they want to keep production in Spain - they're an example of a Spanish business doing well in trying times, and I think they're conscious of that.

Also think probably at least 80% of the current range wouldn't be reproducible in plastic without sacrificing the level of detail.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/20 23:58:18


Post by: Kanluwen


 Pacific wrote:
We've heard from Corvus Belli that they won't go plastic as they want to keep production in Spain - they're an example of a Spanish business doing well in trying times, and I think they're conscious of that.

Also think probably at least 80% of the current range wouldn't be reproducible in plastic without sacrificing the level of detail.

It's not a question of "keeping production in Spain" but rather that they want to keep the production entirely within their control.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/21 00:48:11


Post by: chris_valera


Games Workshop seems to manage good detail with their Dark Vengeance figures. They could try doing a few special edition figures, and see if the fans would accept it in exchange for lower prices.

And nothing says it has to be done in China, plastic sprues can be fabricated in Spain as well. Or fabricated in China, then flown back to Spain for production.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/21 03:36:08


Post by: RiTides


Chris, I think you need to reread Lego's post. Making tooling for plastic injection molding wargaming figures is extremely challenging. There are 2 companies consistently making polystyrene wargaming models right now, in the World! Games Workshop, and now Wargames Factory.

Dropzone Commander I believe was able to use a different company for their 2-player starter, as was Avatars of War for their few plastic kits. But, it's really hard to get right!

Also, these are all for sets. It does not lend itself as well to single model skirmish games like Infinity. Most games of that type will be metal or resin for a long time.



Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/21 11:03:47


Post by: RoninXiC


What about Renedra? They are constantly booked and cannot do any more orders. They produce all Perry plastics, all Warlord Games and many many more.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/21 14:56:56


Post by: chris_valera


 RiTides wrote:
Chris, I think you need to reread Lego's post. Making tooling for plastic injection molding wargaming figures is extremely challenging. There are 2 companies consistently making polystyrene wargaming models right now, in the World! Games Workshop, and now Wargames Factory.

Dropzone Commander I believe was able to use a different company for their 2-player starter, as was Avatars of War for their few plastic kits. But, it's really hard to get right!

Also, these are all for sets. It does not lend itself as well to single model skirmish games like Infinity. Most games of that type will be metal or resin for a long time.



You're right, the guy that just came back from reporting on stuff being made in China, told me it was impossible to make stuff in China.

And apparently so are you.

I guess this whole "China boom" is imaginary.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/21 15:36:11


Post by: Ketara


RoninXiC wrote:
What about Renedra? They are constantly booked and cannot do any more orders. They produce all Perry plastics, all Warlord Games and many many more.


Aye. And they're basically all ex-GW plastics manufacturers. If there's anyone else out there who can do as good a job as GW, it's them.

http://www.renedra.co.uk/history.html


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/21 16:07:26


Post by: Sean_OBrien


 RiTides wrote:
Chris, I think you need to reread Lego's post. Making tooling for plastic injection molding wargaming figures is extremely challenging. There are 2 companies consistently making polystyrene wargaming models right now, in the World! Games Workshop, and now Wargames Factory.

Dropzone Commander I believe was able to use a different company for their 2-player starter, as was Avatars of War for their few plastic kits. But, it's really hard to get right!

Also, these are all for sets. It does not lend itself as well to single model skirmish games like Infinity. Most games of that type will be metal or resin for a long time.



The hard to get right is a bit of a misstatement. There is a learning curve to making small plastic parts, but most of that curve has been well documented so that a competent engineer can deal with it straight away. Designers also need to understand the limitations and caveats of the material, but they arent that difficult to grasp.

The big issue with plastic manufacturing is still the higher cost of entry. Companies have to invest a fair amount up front for a slow return on the backend. It is definately a long game if you are using your own money, but Kickstarter helps sort that. The same techniques, tools and machines are used to make Reaper's Bones, Brick Arms LEGO accessories, B-Club's accessories and even things like the servo arm for my R/C toys. Amount of time spent on the mold and fine detailing vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and purpose. Different materials have different limitations and benefits. For example, the companies which have chosen PVC as their plastic of choice (Reaper for example) gain the ability of having small undercuts on their molds, but they sacrifice some rigidity in the plastic. The molds are still cut from same steel blanks and they are then ran on the same injection machines that are used for ABS or HIPS.

If you get a chance, there are several videos on YouTube which take you through Tamiya's process, and although the end user is not normally a wargamer (though I know a bunch of 1/48 WWII gamers who use Tamiya kits) the processes and techniques apply to gaming plastics just as well as to fine scale models.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/23 20:20:39


Post by: RiTides


 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The hard to get right is a bit of a misstatement. There is a learning curve to making small plastic parts, but most of that curve has been well documented so that a competent engineer can deal with it straight away. Designers also need to understand the limitations and caveats of the material, but they arent that difficult to grasp.

As an engineer currently designing parts for plastic molding... suffice to say, that I disagree with your disagreement

I think what Wargames Factory is doing is amazing, and I just don't think people should minimize the challenges involved in this process is all that I meant (kidding aside). And I completely agree with you that the largest barrier to entry is still the high initial cost of the molds.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/23 20:25:06


Post by: Kanluwen


 chris_valera wrote:
Games Workshop seems to manage good detail with their Dark Vengeance figures. They could try doing a few special edition figures, and see if the fans would accept it in exchange for lower prices.

And nothing says it has to be done in China, plastic sprues can be fabricated in Spain as well. Or fabricated in China, then flown back to Spain for production.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Again, Corvus Belli is refusing to go plastic because they do not have the in-house capability.
They do not want to expand to the point where they might be forced to go public.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/24 17:39:03


Post by: chris_valera


 Kanluwen wrote:
 chris_valera wrote:
Games Workshop seems to manage good detail with their Dark Vengeance figures. They could try doing a few special edition figures, and see if the fans would accept it in exchange for lower prices.

And nothing says it has to be done in China, plastic sprues can be fabricated in Spain as well. Or fabricated in China, then flown back to Spain for production.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Again, Corvus Belli is refusing to go plastic because they do not have the in-house capability.
They do not want to expand to the point where they might be forced to go public.


Oh okay, I see it now. They don't want to take on the debt. Fair enough. But there's nothing wrong with a kickstarter. I still say making starter boxes and big models like TAGs in plastic would be a big boost to the company and getting people into the game.

I did just see a video of the Infinity office and it looks very large, and very professional. I was surprised they had so many people working for them.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/24 23:13:18


Post by: PsychoticStorm


Actually, they do not want to take quality control of their hands, plus the debt, not suitable medium for what they do ectr ectr.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/25 01:50:49


Post by: KalashnikovMarine


I like the metals CB does personally... I would not however mind some of the larger models, the werewolves for Adriana in particular being resin >.> that was a son of a gun to get assembled.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/26 14:03:19


Post by: Casey's Law


 Casey's Law wrote:
On the subject of GW plastic process. I've seen pictures of the new marine kits now and they look massively improved. Crisper, cleaner and generally a prettier surface. Any idea what changed? I'm wondering whether they have improved the machinery, material, the designs or the process? Maybe it's a mix.

Just reposting this. Has anyone got any info on the subject?


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/26 14:33:53


Post by: Kanluwen


Probably has something to do with a retooled mold and the designs.

Not an expert or anyone with inside info so there is probably someone far more qualified to say than me, but I'm just hazarding a guess.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/26 16:10:00


Post by: KalashnikovMarine


Well how old was the the last Marine box set?


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/26 16:25:38


Post by: Gadge


Nice write up. Where about in HK is this place? I am heading back over this christmas to see the GFs family would like to check the place out.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/27 21:49:53


Post by: legoburner


It is not in Hong Kong, it is on the mainland so you need a separate visa and it is about 2-3 hours of travel to get there.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/09/29 07:42:11


Post by: infozetar


Hi
Your projects are amazing. Oh here I can’t help sharing some experience of fabrication after designs done.
We are working with a Injection Moulding vendor in China the name is Zetar Industry (http://www.zetarmold.com), Located in Shanghai China (a very big modern city). They are really good.Moving fast and very professional. They helped me with my new design. I asked them to do the injection mold, then plastic injection molding mass production. I was surprised by their rich experience in Injectin Molding and punched lead time. Guys in Zetar deserve every good word just as you are.


Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/10/07 16:12:24


Post by: RiTides


Here are 2 videos of WGF's machines in action. The first shows 6 of their CNC milling machines actively making molds (for Secret Weapon's Tablescape tiles). The second is a shorter video showing one of the Tablescapes tiles actually being injection molded, it's pretty sweet!







Legoburner goes to China - A Visit to Wargames Factory's... Factory @ 2013/10/07 16:42:22


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Harriticus wrote:
Underneath the factory I imagine it went a lot like this




The song is "Underground" by Tom Waits... educate yourself, heathen! ;P

I would have to say that wargames factories production capabilities are far and away the best when it comes to wargamining miniatures, GW really can't touch them (sorry, but WF uses slide-core tooling and AFAIK/can tell GW doesnt, forget about 2-part molds, WF is doing 3+ allowing for details that GW simply cannot match), still I would never use them for the simple fact that they are a Chinese company. Not that I dislike the Chinese, but I would prefer to keep it in the US, you pay a bit more up front, but you'll end up paying roughly the same via Chinese production by virtue of shipping costs and import fees in the long run. On top of that, China has this whole piracy thing going on... and then theres the simple fact that there are certain advantages to having production relatively nearby vs. an ocean away.