So tonight I played a 1750 game with my Tau V. CSM. This guy is new and mostly plays with his friends. Well things to say is that sometimes he looked like he was not having fun.
Now when I started my buttocks was handed to me several times with no mercy before I won. I Bring this philosophy to other games, IF they loose they will learn.
Now.......When I played him, He looked distressed trying to figure it out, he said he wasnt but I could see. I baught An optimized tau/sm list with some major power units.
So, Is it wrong to club a baby seal?

Depends on the game.

Tournament? Prizes on the line? No holds barred, though I frown on unsportsmanlike conduct.

Casual game? Not nearly as cutthroat. The idea is that all players have fun. That doesn't mean I give up a victory just to avoid hurting someone's feelings, but we all know there are ways to play that fit in between giving up the game and figuratively curb stomping a defenseless foe.

Personally, if they're willing to listen, I'll give tips. Make is a little more open as a game, especially if we can both see it as a learning experience. I'd rather suffer a close loss through solid play on both sides than a crushing victory against an opponent who poses no challenge.

For challenging games are where we are likely to learn as well.

The burned hand teaches the best, eh?

IME, it's generally that mindset that drives away new players.

There should be some teacher/student aspects as Forar mentioned - but after a certain point, they have to either stand or fall on their own.

I gave him some advice, But I cant help but think it actually benifitted me sometimes.

I'll always judge a situation like this by the person you were in that scenario.

If you were a great human being, then it shouldn't matter. If you weren't, then the problem lies with you and not the list.

... I am biased - I used to teach Military Science to chidren at a program for gifted youth.

The real question is: Did he have fun?

If the answer is 'Yes' then good on you.

But the term 'clubbing baby seals' makes it sound like he did not have fun - it is a game, and one that you are trying to introduce to a new player.

If the lesson that he took away was 'this game is expensive and not fun' then you lose, as well as the baby seal.

Was that the lesson that you wanted him to take away?

It is possible to win a game against a new player without making the game suck for that new player. Brutally clubbing him to death is not that way.

The Auld Grump

It seemed like he had fun, But he knew he was gonna loose and conceded turn 3 so he can play more games. The guy knew I brought a Tourney list, but he stared and just wondered "What Am i going to do"
But I remember one person telling me "You cant hold back, it an an insult to them"

Why bother playing people if the game is an auto-win for you?

You learn nothing as a player. You gain no kudos. You probably don't teach them anything.

The "hard lesson is best learned" is often not true, and can just put someone off the hobby before they have the chance to improve.

I know from my own experience starting out that I always asked people not to go easy on me, and when they would let me get away moon quint once I had started shooting I would get annoyed. I learned more taking then being coddled. I also played a lot of games that I was losing significantly for much of it, but it absolutely made me better. That said however, it IS a game, and you have to roll with the punches ant not be so brutal in a casual setting. I tend to not run optimized lists, or try out ideas tha seem fun more oft the not. You should BOTH be having fun, otherwise what's the point? Besides, where's the HONOR in beating a weak opponent? Wouldn't I be more I a challenge to so with a worse list than one that is proven? Just my 2 cents.

If a player is just starting out and wants to learn movement, shooting, all that good stuff, maybe don't take a nasty shooting list that sweeps all his models off the table before he has a chance to move or shoot with them?



Just a thought.

I an this thread expecting dead seals! instead I get dead dreams?

If i was in that situation, even if i was told to go all out by a new player, I would play him like I would play a new MTG player. (I play competitively in mtg).

Id use a less optimized list. Something that can still win, but with a few less optimal units. (Like say il drop my 3 drop pods with iron clads and sg squads, and take landspeeder typhoons and dev squads). It weakens my list enough (i need the alpha strike to keep my talons safe) but still put the hurt in non tourney lists. Chances are he will be using something from a strikeforce box or starter set with some models added in just to get the points up, which means it will be a mixed force of unoptimized units.

This way you still use your experience to help you win the game and it also gives the new guy a chance to win by not playing a leafblower list.

I think that if you are having those thoughts about it, then it probably answers it for you!

If someone is getting into a game then it's far more beneficial for them (and, ultimately, for you) to go easy on them. Bring out the big guns when he knows what he is doing.

"You cant hold back, it an an insult to them" might well be true against a seasoned player at a tournament, but I definitely would prescribe to that for a beginner.

Never think of the Golden Rule as a good idea.

Jesus was an ass; you shouldn't treat people as you want to be treated in return - you should treat them as they want to be treated.

I've only ever played one game where it seemed that the other player was on a hiding to nothing - once I realised that I eased up (I play too infrequently to care about winning - I just want to have a fun game ) and we discussed our moves and so on and it was a lot nicer a game.

If you are playing against someone who is clearly in a different league to you, why continue to crush them? Neither of you learn anything.

It takes more finesse or skill with some army types to just convincingly scrape a win against a newbie, then it does to just hammer them outright. Dark Eldar being a case in point.

Look on it as another type of challenge, as merely winning outright is too easy. Set yourself a target of winning by no more than a quarter of the game value's victory points, or a single objective.

You should point him to this thread. He will appreciate it.

Steelmage99 wrote:
Never think of the Golden Rule as a good idea.

Jesus was an ass; you shouldn't treat people as you want to be treated in return - you should treat them as they want to be treated.

I prefer a better golden rule: do unto others before they do unto you.

If you mercilessly club a baby seal and make them ragequit you ensure that you will never suffer the humiliation of defeat at their hands in the future. And many years in the future they may even look back and realize how lucky they were to encounter such a kind opponent who spared them from the misery of playing a GW game.

I think that both people need to have 'fun' in a casual games (you enter a tournament you need to expect people are there to win) I often take unusual lists to try out against 'baby seals' I play hard but it normally produces an enjoyable game

I think I would enjoy such a game even less than the person I was crushing. Just go easy on him, let *him* see what works and doesn't work rather than trying to give him advice.

If it was a tournament then everybody understands what’s expected and plays hard core lists to win. If he is new and mainly plays with his friends he might just enjoy playing the game for fun.

If he looked distressed and appeared to not be having fun then that was probably the case for him. Being that he conceded the game on turn 3 so he could go and play more games, kind of suggests that he was not really enjoying the experience. If he is playing mainly for fun he may avoid playing you again in the future.

A great thing to have done would have been to swap lists after the first game and let him play your Tau and you play his CSM. A lot of value can be gained from this and he could experience playing with an optimum tournament list. It would of also been good a good insight into how he felt playing against your optimum list.

I have found this a really good learning tool for both players to go up against their own army’s and test their limitations.

Sounds pretty harsh to me if its just a casual game, I would give him advice and/or chance to win, if you really feel the need to pound new players into the ground then fair enough, but its not really my style, and to some people it will make you look like a bit of a bell.

Firmly in the wrong camp. If he's still learning (as opposed to training), I always take more of a demo game approach, taking what I think might be an interesting opponent for his force (which usually won't even be complete at that point), even if it puts me at a huge disadvantage. That way, I actually have some fun, too, trying to overcome the odds. I find that much more rewarding than just "holding back" or curbstomping the newbie.

If he is the type who tells you "no, don't hold back, I want a real game, I'll learn quicker", I tend to ask whether he thinks that a Karate starter would also learn more if the black belt teacher just broke his arms in four seconds.

That being said, the guy in question had a full 1750 point army and already plays, so what exactly made this particular example a "baby seal" I don't know.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So tonight I played a 1750 game with my Tau V. CSM. This guy is new and mostly plays with his friends. Well things to say is that sometimes he looked like he was not having fun.
Now when I started my buttocks was handed to me several times with no mercy before I won. I Bring this philosophy to other games, IF they loose they will learn.
Now.......When I played him, He looked distressed trying to figure it out, he said he wasnt but I could see. I baught An optimized tau/sm list with some major power units.
So, Is it wrong to club a baby seal?

Well there's your first problem. Especially if you brought multiple riptides

And yes, it is always a dick move to club a baby seal, unless they explicitly deserve it (aka excessive bragging, TFG, etc)

This attitude of "crush them and they'll learn" chases away many players, especially if all they are up against is net lists and flavor of the month. This attitude from some players was part of the reason I've taken a break from 40k.

Now I'm not saying throw the game here. I'm just saying that there is no reason to bring an optimized list against a noobie. Odds are he doesn't have the best units, and even if he did, he probably has little idea of how to use them. Taking a tourney level list against him is pointless. What are you really going to gain from the experience? What is the other player going to learn, except that he had no chance to win before you even put models on the table? At best, all he's learned is that the army he wanted to play can't hold its own against flavor of the month, at worst, he's posting his models on eBay right now.

When I played noobies back when I still played 40k, I always took unoptimized lists. How bad depended on how new I thought the guy was. Taking the weaker list made the game more even, and was more likely to actually teach the guy something because he had a chance to win. Plus its more fun. If I saw that the list I had would crush the other guy with little difficulty in a friendly game, why would I even bother unpacking? At that point you're basically rolling dice for the heck of it, because new guy isn't putting up much of a fight.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I almost forgot. If the noobie is cool with it or asks you to not go easy, then by all means, go ahead. I just have a bad history of watching the vets just crush new guys at some of the stores I play at, so the topic can get me a bit peeved. Sorry if I came off angry at you, that wasn't my intention.

I would love to see baby seals partying in my local bar! That would be on a new level of awsome!


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Totally wrong though - underage drinking and all that...

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So tonight I played a 1750 game with my Tau V. CSM. This guy is new and mostly plays with his friends. Well things to say is that sometimes he looked like he was not having fun.
Now when I started my buttocks was handed to me several times with no mercy before I won. I Bring this philosophy to other games, IF they loose they will learn.
Now.......When I played him, He looked distressed trying to figure it out, he said he wasnt but I could see. I baught An optimized tau/sm list with some major power units.
So, Is it wrong to club a baby seal?

Congratulations you just made me realize even more why I seldom find it rewarind to play with WAAC players whom takes joy in stomping new players. If your goal is to make people want to not play the game then I sallute you!

Reminds me of my first games against the die-hards of the store, especially my two games against a Turkish tourney champion, that gak wasn't funny, especially my second against Tau, where I got tabled on turn 2. Yay.

My own approach, in KoW at least, is to handicap myself.

I love playing one 1,500 point army against two 1,000 point armies that are allies.

Needing to coordinate their plans makes it a lot more likely that they will think about their battle plan instead of rushing forward in a line.

Giving myself a time limit, while they can take as long as they need to make their moves is another way of balancing things.

I save the crushing for experienced players. (Hi Jon! Hi Julie!)

The Auld Grump

 Trondheim wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So tonight I played a 1750 game with my Tau V. CSM. This guy is new and mostly plays with his friends. Well things to say is that sometimes he looked like he was not having fun.
Now when I started my buttocks was handed to me several times with no mercy before I won. I Bring this philosophy to other games, IF they loose they will learn.
Now.......When I played him, He looked distressed trying to figure it out, he said he wasnt but I could see. I baught An optimized tau/sm list with some major power units.
So, Is it wrong to club a baby seal?

Congratulations you just made me realize even more why I seldom find it rewarind to play with WAAC players whom takes joy in stomping new players. If your goal is to make people want to not play the game then I sallute you!

Wow, I never said I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the game because the guy and me where laughing that whole. And for those, He isnt a brand new but he is still learning, He knows the rule and been playing for a few months.
And I did give him advice and where to put his Warp talons, his Landraider so Kharn can get into combat fast. He didnt whine he just quit so he could get more games in that night.

Yeah. Seal Clubbing should be a national sport in Canada-

Wait that? Yeah your a terrible person and should feel bad. THINK OF HIS FRAGILE WARGAMER EGO.

If you are in a casual game with someone you knowingly is way below you in experience and skill, then what is the point of going through the exercise of crushing them underfoot except to feed your own ego on the tears of others?

Can even a professional have fun shooting hoops with some friends who are not very good? Sure. Do you say "1on1" an crush them utterly and beat them 21-0 and then say 'Good game scrub!'?

I have better things to do with my time.

If the person is a novice and is learning the game, then I enjoy helping someone learn the game, and that may mean playing a game where you explain rules and tactics for both sides of the table so they can learn what they SHOULD do and what to expect someone to do to them.

If the person knows the game, but simply doesn't have an optimized list so it would just be a gross mismatch where the game is won/lost before a dice is rolled, I would consider changing my list to gain experience with some lesser-used units.

If this is considered a 'training match' where both people are going to play hard, then so be it. I will sometimes decline a game saying 'Hey I am practicing with a tourney list, so I am looking for someone who is looking for a no-holds barred match.' and people either can accept a potential clubbing (or give me one back)

Crushing people learns them nothing if they lack fundamental understanding of the game and their armies. A defeat can help improve an experienced person who has the experience to understand *WHY* they lost. Novice people not experienced with the rules who are defeated due to 'not knowing' something or not understanding something haven't learned anything from being beaten by a Yu-Gi-oh trap card. If your goal is to educate, then educate. Teach them how and why you do what you do and what actions they should do so they can see the game under full transparency.

Yes, But what if they know the rules, know turn order and how everything goes down? What then?
Also, Why should you tone it down? It is an insult to the other player if you do not do your best

oh don't kill a seal,

Cause you need a meal, NO!

Do it cause you wanna hear the little sucker squeal!

Look em in the face, and do it just for kicks,

And poke out thier eyes with yer eye pokin sticks!

-----

That is a reference, btw. I have an internet cookie to the first who gets it.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yes, But what if they know the rules, know turn order and how everything goes down? What then?
Also, Why should you tone it down? It is an insult to the other player if you do not do your best

If they lack the experience to play the game and the game is decided before the game begins, what is the point in crushing them? Usually they lose because they barley know their own codex and the core rules let alone 20 other codexes. If they have never played against Orks, they may know how the game works but will probably spend most of the game falling into pits because he lacks experience of how my units work and his army interacts with mine.

So I can either throw my codex and list at him with the minimum list and say 'figure it out while I crush you.' or I can play the game with pure transparency so he can gain understanding and experience from the game. Is it possible I may still crush him? possibly, but at least he will know why it is happening by explicitly being transparent. I am capable of playing a game in such an impartial way where the game can continue as normal but help remove mistakes due to ignorance of rules or mechanics from the mix. It helps people learn.

It is not an insult to help someone who is inexperienced learn to play or not taking advantage of ignorance in a casual game where there is a massive inequity in skill and experience. Sometimes a demo game or playtest can be enjoyed by both and is more productive than 'clubbing seals'

I really don't see the point in playing an optimized tournament-style list against a new player, or even an experienced player who is not also playing a tournament list. I wouldn't unpack my models for a game like that. I would use that game to try out new things in my codex that I wouldn't normally use, which is usually more fun than a netlist game anyway.

In a competitive environment though, no holds barred. Even then I wouldn't be inclined to "rub it in" as long as he took the loss with dignity.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yes, But what if they know the rules, know turn order and how everything goes down? What then?

Knowing all the rules doesn't mean much by itself. You still have to learn how to apply the knowledge. A soldier may know all about combat after he completes basic training, but it doesn't mean he'll immediately be a Rambo on the battlefield.

Also, Why should you tone it down? It is an insult to the other player if you do not do your best

Your "best"...what? Your best listbuilding? Your best gameplaying? Your best sportsmanship? I find this NSFW quote to be very appropriate. Your best does not matter. What matters is how you define winning. Discouraging a new player to the point where they no longer enjoy playing the game is akin to winning the battle but losing the war. We all lose when players leave the hobby.

I still remember one of my first games of WarMachine.

We'd barely started when my opponent goes something like this: "I'll move this guy here and cast a spell on that guy. He can than more there and buff this guy. He then moves here, attacks your 'caster, annnnnnndddddd... BOOM! You're dead! Wanna try again?"

No, I don't really want to try again. In fact, it put me off for quite a while.

Yes, I knew the rules (sort off, anyway) and knew the general strengths and weaknesses of both armies. But I didn't know about the obscene combos you could make, had no real feeling for the threat-range of my opponents army, didn't know what to look out for...

And so, several years later, the whole "Page 5" mentality - Play Like You Got A Pair - still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Why is it an insult to not play your best? Why not go easy on a newb? I'm genuinely curious.

Because, It shows them you think so little of their ability, that you have to go easy on them. In sports if a new guy comes in, the other team doesnt let him score because he is new, they give him a hard lesson which is "Learn from you mistakes"

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Because, It shows them you think so little of their ability, that you have to go easy on them. In sports if a new guy comes in, the other team doesnt let him score because he is new, they give him a hard lesson which is "Learn from you mistakes"

Point taken.

However, in my mind there is a big difference. This is not a sport, it's a game - a social hobby, if you will. In sports, you will generally train with your own team for quite a while before getting to play against a real opponent. When playing 40K, on the other hand, the only real training you can get is against an opponent - no chance to train with your own team first as there isn't one.

Also, do keep in mind that a veteran has every right to think little of a newbs ability. After all, he's a newb for a reason, right? Certainly, when I begin playing a new game, I enter my first game with the definite expectation that my opponent is much better than me and could easily table me within a few turns. And I would be very surprised indeed if my opponent didn't expect the same. And that, exactly, is why I would expect him to go easy on me. Yes, he could table me easily, but then again... That's a bit of an easy victory... Nothing worth bragging about, right? So what's the point? You won, sure. But what about your opponent? At best, he walked away, having learned very little - if anything at all. At worst, he walked away, never to return.

Who is to say that they didnt learn anyything? When I played my Warmachine game They didnt get me any quarter(You could say they gave me "No quarter") They stomped me. Im not put off the game, I just need to learn more about it and how things interact.
And who is to say walkling away crushed doesnt teach you anything? It taught me plenty, like how i should position my models so they are not crushed, how not to deploy And most importantly, learn from what my opponent did.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Who is to say that they didnt learn anyything? When I played my Warmachine game They didnt get me any quarter(You could say they gave me "No quarter") They stomped me. Im not put off the game, I just need to learn more about it and how things interact.
And who is to say walkling away crushed doesnt teach you anything? It taught me plenty, like how i should position my models so they are not crushed, how not to deploy And most importantly, learn from what my opponent did.

Who are you to decide how people best understand or learn the game? Your style of 'educating' people by beating them to a pulp is not 'one size fit all'. While being beaten to a pulp may be how you learn best and does not put you off the game doesn't mean it will be the same for all people.

You also have the issue of how human nature reacts to fundamentally unfair situations... and in a game with deeeeeeeeeep imbalance like 40k, the game doesn't become a contest of skill and games can be won or lost before a dice is even rolled. When people identify something as unfair, they have different reactions. Some instantly exploit the 'unfairness' for personal advantage, Some attempt to rewrite the system to balance the system to be fair for all, and some simply retreat from or divest themselves from the unfair system. This has even been proven in primates where two monkeys are asked to do the same task for different rewards. When they observe the unfairness for the same supposed action, they shut down. This is also one of the major differences between the genders and how they game. Women are known to be much more attracted to 'cooperative gameplay' and are more adverse to 'unfairness' in games.

So because you enjoy educating people via savage beatings, learn best via savage beatings and naturally exploit or take advantage of a fundamentally unfair system doesn't make it right, or appealing or fun for everyone else. The best you can do is find 'like-minded people' which are usually found at organized events where everyone is also 'exploiting the unbalanced system for personal advantage' and 'playing to win'.

Empty pointless victories are empty pointless victories, and I can't take pleasure in them. If you feel using a statistically superior list in an unbalanced system against someone without the money to buy the newest powerhouse list or lacking the experience to know the rules to the level you do constitutes a 'earned' victory and had fun 'educating' them, then enjoy yourself. You might lack opponents pretty quickly if you don't find like-minded people.


Boils down to: If you can identify them as a 'baby seal' then you admit that they had no hope of winning and the game is unfair. If you try to redefine baby seals or move goalposts to include people who are not baby seals, then try to defend beating people in fair games, then don't call them baby seals.

The only reason to knowingly crush someone who is a baby seal without changing a thing is if you get your rocks off to it or you want to knowingly harm others in a social setting. Games should be consensual, and both players should communicate pre-game and try to do something both people will enjoy. If that means playing a baby seal and you are incapable of holding back or changing your playstyle to a more friendly or 'educational' way, then decline the game and find someone of similar skill or wants a similar level of intensity to their games.

nkelsch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Who is to say that they didnt learn anyything? When I played my Warmachine game They didnt get me any quarter(You could say they gave me "No quarter") They stomped me. Im not put off the game, I just need to learn more about it and how things interact.
And who is to say walkling away crushed doesnt teach you anything? It taught me plenty, like how i should position my models so they are not crushed, how not to deploy And most importantly, learn from what my opponent did.

Who are you to decide how people best understand or learn the game? Your style of 'educating' people by beating them to a pulp is not 'one size fit all'. While being beaten to a pulp may be how you learn best and does not put you off the game doesn't mean it will be the same for all people.

You also have the issue of how human nature reacts to fundamentally unfair situations... and in a game with deeeeeeeeeep imbalance like 40k, the game doesn't become a contest of skill and games can be won or lost before a dice is even rolled. When people identify something as unfair, they have different reactions. Some instantly exploit the 'unfairness' for personal advantage, Some attempt to rewrite the system to balance the system to be fair for all, and some simply retreat from or divest themselves from the unfair system. This has even been proven in primates where two monkeys are asked to do the same task for different rewards. When they observe the unfairness for the same supposed action, they shut down. This is also one of the major differences between the genders and how they game. Women are known to be much more attracted to 'cooperative gameplay' and are more adverse to 'unfairness' in games.

So because you enjoy educating people via savage beatings, learn best via savage beatings and naturally exploit or take advantage of a fundamentally unfair system doesn't make it right, or appealing or fun for everyone else. The best you can do is find 'like-minded people' which are usually found at organized events where everyone is also 'exploiting the unbalanced system for personal advantage' and 'playing to win'.

Empty pointless victories are empty pointless victories, and I can't take pleasure in them. If you feel using a statistically superior list in an unbalanced system against someone without the money to buy the newest powerhouse list or lacking the experience to know the rules to the level you do constitutes a 'earned' victory and had fun 'educating' them, then enjoy yourself. You might lack opponents pretty quickly if you don't find like-minded people.

I agree with Nkelsch, One shoe does not fit all sizes, for example I have been playing 40k for 5+ years and I don't remember or know all the rules, sometimes I miss rules out or miss triggers because I forget they were even there. Just saying "they will learn next time as I crush them" is pointless, no internet cookie for you, why? because at the end of the day the game is a game your not competing for a job or anything that would change your life, your there to relax and play a game and that is the same for your opponent. It is frequently said by GW and in the rulebook that this is a game where both people make agreements to make a fun enjoyable game (although half of it is too cover poor rules writing but I digress) for both people, if you feel like someone wasn't enjoying the game then sorry, but you played 40k wrong. What I would do is as said many a time on this thread is to make handicap's for yourself, instead of using all those riptides for example replace them with Kroot? use models that you like instead of what synergises well, trust me you will find the game against this opponent more enjoyable as you will be using new things, experience new situations and all in all have a good refresh on you tactical mind and maybe learn a new tactic that could work well against other opponents that you never thought of before all while helping out with the experience of the new player.

Also apologies if my reply sounded a bit angry, this was not the intention.

I'm in the uncomfortable position of finding myself agreeing with nkelsch on something.

Outside of a tournament or tournament prep game - and certainly against people who are lesrning the game and/or the basic tactics of their army - there is no honour in going full-on, WAAC, intent on grinding your opponent into the ground.

If nothing else, ensure expectations are set before the game, and be prepared to dial things back if asked.

I told that person severa times Im test out a tournament list, he knew what he was getting into

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I told that person severa times Im test out a tournament list, he knew what he was getting into

No he didn't, because he's new to the game, he knowes its going to be a hard game but, my bet is (since I was like this when I started) he doesn't understand the imbalancing of 40k and therefore would have known that he would have called it by turn 3, and by what you said in the OP then I maybe right.

Always save your tourney lists for the vets who have the experience of dealing with hardcore lists, as new players don't know what they are getting into when facing a hardcore list, they need to learn gradually the difference between the competitive side and the casual side to 40k atm new players will not know the difference meaning that they think its all the same, when they really are not

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I told that person severa times Im test out a tournament list, he knew what he was getting into

Then why make this thread? If he knew what he was getting into, why even bother asking us if "clubbing baby seals" is the right thing to do? From the sounds of the OP, it sounds like you may feel a little guilty about stomping someone who wasn't playing at your level and you knew it. Now, he may have thought he knew what he was getting into, but unless he's felt the power of a fully operational optimized Tau list, he really didn't.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Because, It shows them you think so little of their ability, that you have to go easy on them. In sports if a new guy comes in, the other team doesnt let him score because he is new, they give him a hard lesson which is "Learn from you mistakes"

Well, if he's going up against another team, he's clearly in a competitive arena, not a casual one. As for, "Learn from your mistakes," this is assuming he knew what mistakes he made other than, "Playing that WAAC dude with the Tau army."

 Extreaminatus wrote:
Then why make this thread?

Probably just to get people to agree with him that the point of view put forward is the correct one to assuage some traces of guilt.

The "If I don't bring my best I'm insulting them" thing is always bizarre to me. How are you insulting them? And even more important/relevant, how do you know their preferences so damn well that you can decide for them what is insulting? No, it's not even that, it's a nonsense excuse to crush a newbie.

 happygolucky wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I told that person severa times Im test out a tournament list, he knew what he was getting into

No he didn't, because he's new to the game, he knowes its going to be a hard game but, my bet is (since I was like this when I started) he doesn't understand the imbalancing of 40k and therefore would have known that he would have called it by turn 3, and by what you said in the OP then I maybe right.

Yes he did, He played another tourney vet who goes there aswell and uses his list against them.
And I do not feel guilty unless the person did not have fun, on the outside this person looked. like he enjoyed it, but was a little distrssed playing tau(HE said he played them before and they are not fun)


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 Extreaminatus wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I told that person severa times Im test out a tournament list, he knew what he was getting into

Then why make this thread? If he knew what he was getting into, why even bother asking us if "clubbing baby seals" is the right thing to do? From the sounds of the OP, it sounds like you may feel a little guilty about stomping someone who wasn't playing at your level and you knew it. Now, he may have thought he knew what he was getting into, but unless he's felt the power of a fully operational optimized Tau list, he really didn't.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Because, It shows them you think so little of their ability, that you have to go easy on them. In sports if a new guy comes in, the other team doesnt let him score because he is new, they give him a hard lesson which is "Learn from you mistakes"

Well, if he's going up against another team, he's clearly in a competitive arena, not a casual one. As for, "Learn from your mistakes," this is assuming he knew what mistakes he made other than, "Playing that WAAC dude with the Tau army."

When does wanting to win=waac? And he also learned it isnt best to shoot things you plan to charge and to move and not stay static.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So, Is it wrong to club a baby seal?

When I play chess against a beginner, I don't replace my bishops by two queens just to "teach him/her".
When I play rugby against a beginner, I don't use all my strength to to shove his/her face into the ground.

But maybe I'm doing it wrong.

I don't think it's okay to beat the crap out of a casual gamer with a list you built in order to win your next toy-soldiers-championship.

I do not really think that clubbing baby seals is the best analogy to suit this predicament now that you have explained further. Baby seals do not know what they are getting themselves into !

If I'm playing beginners I actually often have more fun, as it lets me bring all the odd units you'd not normally touch with a ten foot barge pole to the table. Mix in a couple of decent units and have fun.

Unless they are a gifted player right off the bat, a typically beginner is going to struggle against a vet just because of the mindset isn't there yet, target priority etc.

I've run three clubs in the past as well, brought dozens of gamers into the hobby in years gone by. Sadly been a while since I had the time to set one up. I do miss it, and the fun of introducing folks to the game.

I have been the clubbed baby seal. Not THIS one, but I have been that guy. Recently. Like the last 8 months or so really. On that note.

I was playing my first game against Eldar. This was weeks before the new Marine Codex was released. Intellectually I knew I was in for a uphill fight. 3 Wave serpents, a Fire Prism pretty much a 2k net list of ouch. He went first. By the bottom of turn 2 I was pretty much tabled. Yeah I had some units left, but nothing that could help. I was crushed, both in the game and mentally. So I decided I was going to change my "mission". I decided that in order for me to win, I had to wipe one unit off the board. Yeah he would win the game, but I would win a moral victory. I was rather disappointed with my game. I would not however, let my opponent see that. He took the time to play the game through until it was painfully obvious that I couldnt win. To honor his time commitment, I tried to make light of my loss and to at least outwardly look like I was having fun. I got home and burned the list I was using because it was obviously flawed. I grumped around the house. I put my 40k stuff away and instead of painting with my wife, I dug out a book and read. The point is; Yes, he may have "known" what the list was. Yes he may have "looked" like he was having fun. Bieng the clubbed seal to a optimised list is a rather pointless way to spend a few hours.

Did that loss make me a better player? Well, I have learned to space my units out better. I use more cover then before. Oh and I have yet to play another Eldar army LOL. I understand someone has to be the test subject for your tourney list. The only way to figure out which units work for YOUR play style is to play. Just try and bear in mind, the novices arent enjoying themselves as much as you when you beat them 26-0.

I'm gonna mix it up and agree with the OP *ducks under barrage of flaming soap boxes*

Now then, IMO, there's a difference between "clubbing the baby seal" - i.e, bringing a netlist against the guy in the store who walking in five minutes ago saying "Should I start with Dark Vengeance or the Space Marine battleforce?" - without a word, and saying "I'm bringing a tournament list to this one, are you sure you want to go ahead with it?" to a guy you've played before with weaker lists. And my reason for saying this is that it (usually) keeps people in check. It should only really be done when they're pretty confident with the rules and their army's abilities, and serves to show them what they can expect from high level play. To a degree. It's good for one time where you can say "This is the best you'll possibly face right now, lets see how you do."

I do NOT condone this against guys that have a total play time of five seconds, and you should always give prior warning before bringing it, making it clear how powerful it is.

If the guy knew this and still said yes, then you don't have anything to wrroy about, especially if both players had fun.

Alexi wrote:


Did that loss make me a better player? Well, I have learned to space my units out better. I use more cover then before. Oh and I have yet to play another Eldar army LOL. I understand someone has to be the test subject for your tourney list. The only way to figure out which units work for YOUR play style is to play. Just try and bear in mind, the novices arent enjoying themselves as much as you when you beat them 26-0.

To be fair those kind of things should be pointed out to a beginner anyways, heck in some cases it has felt like I was playing myself, I stress felt, but it helps folks understand how to play the game, and helps them get their heads round some of the trickier concepts right out the gate.

Also to be honest using a tourney list to splat a list which has zero chance to cause you even a twitched eyebrow is in no way a good way to test a list. Thats not at you by the way, just a general observation.

No offense taken. I dont do so well with tourney lists. I do more of a combined arms list...a TAC sort of list

I made a thread about this a few weeks ago.
People seemed to think that I should magically be able to give my opponent an even match no matter what I knew about their skill or what list I was taking.

I played a new-ish CSM player a few days ago. Even going easy on him, with some units literally doing nothing all game, I tabled him turn 3. Sometimes you can't give someone a chance, even when you go so easy on them its obvious that you're holding back. I don't play a particularly competitive list - just he took a really terrible one.


My advice:
1) If you know you're playing against a more casual opponent, take a more casual list or warn them you're playing a tourney list.

2) If you're still tabling people, try to give as many hints as possible about target priority and movement.

3) If you still beat them up - seek better opponents if you can, swap armies, or purposefully take underpointed lists so that your opponent had a better chance without it being too obvious that you're helping out.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So tonight I played a 1750 game with my Tau V. CSM. This guy is new and mostly plays with his friends. Well things to say is that sometimes he looked like he was not having fun.
Now when I started my buttocks was handed to me several times with no mercy before I won. I Bring this philosophy to other games, IF they loose they will learn.
Now.......When I played him, He looked distressed trying to figure it out, he said he wasnt but I could see. I baught An optimized tau/sm list with some major power units.
So, Is it wrong to club a baby seal?

Congratulations you just made me realize even more why I seldom find it rewarind to play with WAAC players whom takes joy in stomping new players. If your goal is to make people want to not play the game then I sallute you!

Wow, I never said I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the game because the guy and me where laughing that whole. And for those, He isnt a brand new but he is still learning, He knows the rule and been playing for a few months.
And I did give him advice and where to put his Warp talons, his Landraider so Kharn can get into combat fast. He didnt whine he just quit so he could get more games in that night.

Play as you would play normally. Whats the differnce? That someone's feelings might get hurt? The best way to learn how to play is to get your ass handed to you. Now with that your right.... give him advice. Help him improve his list and his game play style. During the game ask him why he is making that move and politely suggest alternatives that would be better for him. But DON'T ever down play YOUR game. At the end of the game give him a few suggestions and tell him you would like to play him again sometime. Don't end the game with a "haha just stomped your ass" end it with a "hey you played pretty good... But" and then follow that up with "i would like to play you again now that you know how this, this and this part of my list works".


I don't know about other people and will not try to put words into their mouth. But after the initial learning phase where i learn the basics, i want them to play me as hard as they can. Its like when i fight people (for sport, with rules and stuff) i don't want them to take it easy on me and i will not take it easy on them. Now that being said after i choke them out i give them advice and show them how to counter moves but im not going to just let them slip it.

hotsauceman1, the fact he conceded, regardless of supposed reasoning, indicates he did not enjoy the game at all. Or did he surrender more games at turn 3 that night regardless of how he was doing?

Secondly...Why even make this thread if you're just backtracking and all sorts of defensive?

Lastly, you don't take optimized lists in this case, you take fun or random lists.

so you showed him what a crap broken unbalanced game it is.. i guess he would find out sooner or later

hotsauceman1 wrote:Who is to say that they didnt learn anyything? When I played my Warmachine game They didnt get me any quarter(You could say they gave me "No quarter") They stomped me. Im not put off the game, I just need to learn more about it and how things interact.
And who is to say walkling away crushed doesnt teach you anything? It taught me plenty, like how i should position my models so they are not crushed, how not to deploy And most importantly, learn from what my opponent did.

I think Nkelsch did a good reply to this.

What I learned from that game was that 1) WarMachine players use Page 5 as an excuse for WAAC gaming and 2) WarMachine is so insanely combo-driven as to resemble MtG - not particularly fun at all.

Now, is that all true? Probably not. I would certainly hope that there are friendly laid back WarMachine players out there. But I was so thoroughly put off by the "HA! Take that, NEWB!!!" attitude of my opponent that I'm not sure if I want to give it another shot.

Lemartes12 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So tonight I played a 1750 game with my Tau V. CSM. This guy is new and mostly plays with his friends. Well things to say is that sometimes he looked like he was not having fun.
Now when I started my buttocks was handed to me several times with no mercy before I won. I Bring this philosophy to other games, IF they loose they will learn.
Now.......When I played him, He looked distressed trying to figure it out, he said he wasnt but I could see. I baught An optimized tau/sm list with some major power units.
So, Is it wrong to club a baby seal?

Congratulations you just made me realize even more why I seldom find it rewarind to play with WAAC players whom takes joy in stomping new players. If your goal is to make people want to not play the game then I sallute you!

Wow, I never said I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the game because the guy and me where laughing that whole. And for those, He isnt a brand new but he is still learning, He knows the rule and been playing for a few months.
And I did give him advice and where to put his Warp talons, his Landraider so Kharn can get into combat fast. He didnt whine he just quit so he could get more games in that night.

Play as you would play normally. Whats the differnce? That someone's feelings might get hurt? The best way to learn how to play is to get your ass handed to you. Now with that your right.... give him advice. Help him improve his list and his game play style. During the game ask him why he is making that move and politely suggest alternatives that would be better for him. But DON'T ever down play YOUR game. At the end of the game give him a few suggestions and tell him you would like to play him again sometime. Don't end the game with a "haha just stomped your ass" end it with a "hey you played pretty good... But" and then follow that up with "i would like to play you again now that you know how this, this and this part of my list works".


I don't know about other people and will not try to put words into their mouth. But after the initial learning phase where i learn the basics, i want them to play me as hard as they can. Its like when i fight people (for sport, with rules and stuff) i don't want them to take it easy on me and i will not take it easy on them. Now that being said after i choke them out i give them advice and show them how to counter moves but im not going to just let them slip it.

Each to his own, of course.

I learned nothing useful from that game of WarMachine. The combo that killed my 'caster came out of nowhere, with no warning and no way for me to know what was about to happen.

Indeed, I much prefer the teaching to be done through a continuous dialogue throughout the game. "If you move there you risk getting assaulted next turn", "remember to spread your Marines a bit more since I've got multiple ordinance weapons", "you might want to keep some guys back to counter my Terminators when they arrive from reserves - that Leman Russ looks mighty tempting", and so on...

But then again, I must admit that I might be biased as I generally dislike "hard playing" and "tournament gaming". I've met too many players who seemed to enjoy beating down newbs (and just about anyone else, for that matter), always bringing their hardest game and protesting loudly if their opponent don't do the same. Somewhere along the way, it seems to me, they have forgotten that the purpose of playing this game is for both players to have fun, winning is a secondary concern.

so no dead fluffy things?
fluffy, 40k, dead, no? ok.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
It seemed like he had fun, But he knew he was gonna loose and conceded turn 3 so he can play more games. The guy knew I brought a Tourney list, but he stared and just wondered "What Am i going to do"
But I remember one person telling me "You cant hold back, it an an insult to them"

Play your best but that doesn't mean you have to bring your best list always. Honestly, a hardcore tournament list just isn't fun for a casual player with a casual list.

I usually have 2 lists (actually, I have a lot more than that) - a strong tournament list and a less-optimized, "casual list". However, even my casual lists are strong (just not as strong as my tournament lists). Bringing your "weaker" list doesn't mean you are giving your opponent any "freebies". It's not even an insult to them if you are still playing it to the best of your ability. At the same time, you will also challenge yourself.

BTW, I try to minimize the spam in my casual lists and try not to take more than 2 of the same type of units (unless they're standard troops). I also start using units that I don't normally get the chance to use in my more competitive lists. For example, my Fun-crons actually brings a monolith and some heavy destroyers and has no spam at all. It may seem weak, but I'm pretty good at it and have lost only once with it.

f2k wrote:

Each to his own, of course.

I learned nothing useful from that game of WarMachine. The combo that killed my 'caster came out of nowhere, with no warning and no way for me to know what was about to happen.

Indeed, I much prefer the teaching to be done through a continuous dialogue throughout the game. "If you move there you risk getting assaulted next turn", "remember to spread your Marines a bit more since I've got multiple ordinance weapons", "you might want to keep some guys back to counter my Terminators when they arrive from reserves - that Leman Russ looks mighty tempting", and so on...

But then again, I must admit that I might be biased as I generally dislike "hard playing" and "tournament gaming". I've met too many players who seemed to enjoy beating down newbs (and just about anyone else, for that matter), always bringing their hardest game and protesting loudly if their opponent don't do the same. Somewhere along the way, it seems to me, they have forgotten that the purpose of playing this game is for both players to have fun, winning is a secondary concern.

Yeah everyone has there own play style. While i enjoy winning. I much prefer to play a game where both the opponent and myself are trying our hardest to beat eachother. That being said, if i know the player doesn't know how to play the game i will help him and i use that opprotunity to try out new things (run different squads to see how they work). But throughout the game i do give them advice and let them know when they are making mistakes. But im not throwing the game to boost their confidence. It gives them a false sense of security which will get broken which will be worse than if i just beat them. At my FLGS we have this demon player that consistantly beats everyone, I enjoy playing him the most because it makes it challanging and when i do win it makes it that much better. I guess where im going with this is while you shouldn't "club the baby seal" they need to earn their win.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Because, It shows them you think so little of their ability, that you have to go easy on them. In sports if a new guy comes in, the other team doesnt let him score because he is new, they give him a hard lesson which is "Learn from you mistakes"

this analogy is pretty insulting to people who play sports.

 Allod wrote:
Firmly in the wrong camp. If he's still learning (as opposed to training), I always take more of a demo game approach, taking what I think might be an interesting opponent for his force (which usually won't even be complete at that point), even if it puts me at a huge disadvantage. That way, I actually have some fun, too, trying to overcome the odds. I find that much more rewarding than just "holding back" or curbstomping the newbie.

If he is the type who tells you "no, don't hold back, I want a real game, I'll learn quicker", I tend to ask whether he thinks that a Karate starter would also learn more if the black belt teacher just broke his arms in four seconds.

That being said, the guy in question had a full 1750 point army and already plays, so what exactly made this particular example a "baby seal" I don't know.

dont insult karate like that. sports and karate actually have depth and require talent and are a bit more complicated than "buy & spam new expensive thing"

kb305 wrote:

 Allod wrote:
If he is the type who tells you "no, don't hold back, I want a real game, I'll learn quicker", I tend to ask whether he thinks that a Karate starter would also learn more if the black belt teacher just broke his arms in four seconds.

dont insult karate like that. sports and karate actually have depth and require talent and are a bit more complicated than "buy & spam new expensive thing"

Erm... what?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Because, It shows them you think so little of their ability, that you have to go easy on them. In sports if a new guy comes in, the other team doesnt let him score because he is new, they give him a hard lesson which is "Learn from you mistakes"

Complete red herring. If someone turns up for training and is new to your team you don't just stick them out on the pitch and stomp all over them. You train with them, teach them, play friendly and training games where people don't play all out. You make it enjoyable first. That is with a single new person in team sports.

If you are a team playing against a much less experienced team, or in a non team sport against a much less experienced person, you don't go out and stomp them. You don't play all out for the win. That's called pot hunting and is frowned upon in most sports. In the FA cup you end up with top teams playing against non league teams. The top teams do not send the first squad of many reasons, one of which being that thrashing someone 25-0 is embarrassing for both sides.

f2k wrote:


What I learned from that game was that 1) WarMachine players use Page 5 as an excuse for WAAC gaming and 2) WarMachine is so insanely combo-driven as to resemble MtG - not particularly fun at all.

Now, is that all true? Probably not. I would certainly hope that there are friendly laid back WarMachine players out there. But I was so thoroughly put off by the "HA! Take that, NEWB!!!" attitude of my opponent that I'm not sure if I want to give it another shot.

Each to his own, of course.
.

That's quite Ironic really, as rule 5 of page 5 specifies that page 5 is never an excuse to play like that, or do that.

Page 5 is a mentality - bring your best, play your hardest, give it your all, don't whine or Moan, be a sportsman and a gentleman ( we're all here for the same reason), be magnanimous if you win, and come back stronger if you lose. And it's not an excuse to be 'that guy'.

It's ironic - what you see as an excuse for Waac gaming is actually the antithesis of what page 5 is all about. I'm a huge supporter of the real attitude of page 5 - frankly, in my mind, it's the best thing you can do for yourself. But I can fully appreciate that I'm coming fro a different point of view here. Also, if you don't mind, I hope it's ok to point out that the combo driven nature of warmachine might not be fun for you, but it's fun for lots of other folks. I'm pretty sure you didn't mean it in such a context, but that comment of yours Is coming across a bit on the judgemental side.

Lastly, for what it's worth, I think it's a shame that one experience with one player turned you off a whole community.

f2k wrote:

Each to his own, of course.

I learned nothing useful from that game of WarMachine. The combo that killed my 'caster came out of nowhere, with no warning and no way for me to know what was about to happen.
.

And that's happened to me more times than I can count. But I actually enjoy the 'how the hell did you just pull that off' moment. I'll follow it with a handshake, and 'good game'. Then I'll analyse the moves he pulled to get him to that place, and what I did that let him get away wi it, followed with 'what willI do next time'. I enjoy that mental process. There is always something new coming against you. You're always growing as a player. But as you say, each to their own. Neither approach is more righteous.

I think It's all down to how you appreciate the experience. Obviously, I'll appreciate it differently. But then again, I'm used to being punched in the head when I make a mistake in boxing.

f2k wrote:

Indeed, I much prefer the teaching to be done through a continuous dialogue throughout the game. "If you move there you risk getting assaulted next turn", "remember to spread your Marines a bit more since I've got multiple ordinance weapons", "you might want to keep some guys back to counter my Terminators when they arrive from reserves - that Leman Russ looks mighty tempting", and so on...

But then again, I must admit that I might be biased as I generally dislike "hard playing" and "tournament gaming". I've met too many players who seemed to enjoy beating down newbs (and just about anyone else, for that matter), always bringing their hardest game and protesting loudly if their opponent don't do the same. Somewhere along the way, it seems to me, they have forgotten that the purpose of playing this game is for both players to have fun, winning is a secondary concern.

Just playing devils advocate here, but why is it on the head of the hard players? Why is it their fault the other guy is not having fun? Surely it's equally plausible the other guy is equally guilty for not stepping up, as the hard players are for not stepping down? Secondly, fun is subjective. You can't simply define fun as being 'not bringing your hardest list'. Some people see hard lists as fun. ( too often, the answer isn't this side or that side is right, just okay with folks who want the same thing out of their fame. Communication is key )

It's funny as well, but I remember recently on another forums, there was a big complaint going by a poster against a bunch of Waac power gamers that had ruined his club. You know the type - according to him, they were dirty grubby power gamers only interested in winning, and they were ruining his club and seal clubbing him relentlessly. Well, one of those guys came on and defended himself, and presented a totally different story (and this was a very well respected poster on the boards to boot) and sausage they were doing the steamroller tournament games (warmachine) as most folks there simply wanted to up their game to the highest levels. The club was, by all accounts thriving, and numbers were increasing, if I remember right. And with his posts which were well written, respectful and well thought through, it really came across as sour grapes on the part of the op.

What am I trying to say here? Well, I suppose there is always the other side of the story. Two different people can see the same thing, and interpret it in utterly different ways. Take you f2k - you say you don't like hard gaming, prefer a more softly softly approach and dislike the more hardcore gamers. Well, fair play. No sir, I'm not going to discredit you or hold your preferences in contempt ( you're fully entitled to your pov) but bear in mind, someone else will see exactly the sane thing in a totally different manner. For example, I might see that softly softly approach as condescending (mate, please let me play my own game, make my own mistakes and learn from them) and might see those hard core gamers as fun guys having a laugh.

But then again, I like the 'it's on me' approach. It's funny too, I never really got that until I played warmachine. Never got the attitude of pushing myself, and having it being on my shoulders. Maybe it's to do with the fact that in the last few years, I've done a lot of running (love my 10ks, half marathons and even a 24hour endurance race!), gym work and a bit of boxing, and that attitude of pushing myself hard, as far as I can go is simply my default attitude now. It's not wrong either. No more than your seemingly 'more laid back' one us.

Regardless, cheers.

If clubbing baby seals is wrong, i don't want to be right...


... OH we're talking about wargaming! *ahem*


It's a fine line.

Most new players are very enthusiastic about any new game they pick up. They typically don't understand the in's and out's of the game just yet, they're in a sort of "honey moon period", rolling with their poorly optimized list.

The issue is if you curbstomp this person repeatedly in this early stage, he may begin to question if his time (and money) are not spent in doing something else. During the first few games with a brand new player, i probably won't go as full force as i normally would, or i take the time to break out the cool models i love that maybe aren't 100% optimized in particular combinations.

Essentially, yeah, i take it easy on new players and use the first handful of games to give pointers, show the ropes, etc.

After a handful of games, it's on bitch.



.. oh and completely goes with out saying if its a tourney, or some other event that money has been paid to play, or there's prizes - sorry, that's not the place for beginners. COmpetitions is where people bring their A-game, it's not a place to teach people the ropes. If a beginner goes to a hardcore tournament format, he should have every expectation to get farmed.

hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Extreaminatus wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I told that person severa times Im test out a tournament list, he knew what he was getting into

Then why make this thread? If he knew what he was getting into, why even bother asking us if "clubbing baby seals" is the right thing to do? From the sounds of the OP, it sounds like you may feel a little guilty about stomping someone who wasn't playing at your level and you knew it. Now, he may have thought he knew what he was getting into, but unless he's felt the power of a fully operational optimized Tau list, he really didn't.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Because, It shows them you think so little of their ability, that you have to go easy on them. In sports if a new guy comes in, the other team doesnt let him score because he is new, they give him a hard lesson which is "Learn from you mistakes"

Well, if he's going up against another team, he's clearly in a competitive arena, not a casual one. As for, "Learn from your mistakes," this is assuming he knew what mistakes he made other than, "Playing that WAAC dude with the Tau army."

When does wanting to win=waac? And he also learned it isnt best to shoot things you plan to charge and to move and not stay static.

Whoops, I too out a caveat saying you're not necessarily a WAAC dude during editing and forgot to put it back in, but if you went up against someone else who didn't joke and laugh with you during the game they're going to slap that label on you real quick. He could have learned movement and not shooting your assault target against an easier list, as well.

Ever since I saw the neckbeards at the tournament scene in my area (which I know is not the case everywhere else), I've approached this game from a casual angle, not a, "Bring the best of everything to crush your opponent." Yeah, you can make hard lists and tournament lists, but they should be played against the same, not against a casual player who's still getting the swing of his army.

A very good and well thought out reply, Deadnight. Kudos to you for that...


Yes, it is quite ironic. Unfortunately, most people only read as far as the "bring your best" part and never get further.

However, to be entirely honest, I must admit that I'm one of those guys as well. When I first saw that page I immediately thought "WAAC player paradise". You're right, of course, and a bit further thinking will make you see Page 5 for what it is. Well, it did for me, anyway.

But still, I would honestly have preferred if they had never put that in the book.


As for being turned off, let me say that, at that point in time, I was already highly allergic to "hardcore" players, so it didn't take much

I still remember the first tournament I took part in, years and years ago. In the very first game I ran into a Dwarf player with a 1000-odd point character stuck in a 1000-odd point regiment of ultra-hard dwarfs, and a single allied High Elf mage hiding in a forest. I wasn't exactly a great Fantasy player back then, but I knew enough to realize that I had a snowballs chance in hell of doing anything at all against that army. So I spend 6 turns desperately maneuvering to avoid getting caught, in the end loosing because one of my regiments ran out of space and got cut down.
Well, that kind of things happen so I dutifully shook hands with my opponent and then, overcome with curiosity, asked if he had enjoyed the game? "Enjoyed?", he asked, blinking slowly, "I won, that's the point, isn't it?".

The second tournament I went to, this time playing Blood Bowl, I first ran into a guy who tried his best to cheat at every opportunity. The second game was against a guy who, despite quickly gaining a comfortable lead against my depleted team, kept on fouling each turn, openly stating his goal to eliminate my team entirely from the tournament, partly for SPP, partly to to cut down on the competition as the tournament went on.

After that I decided that tournaments weren't for me.

You are, of course, right in that it's not fair to judge the entire community based on the actions of a few tournament players. But, you know... Once burned...


As you say, it's down to how we want to experience the game.Maybe I would enjoy tournaments more if I was a bit more hardcore in my play-style.

But to me, the game is really just an excuse to get together with my friends, drink some beer (well, soda, actually as we have a no-alcohol policy), and stuff my face with chips and McBurgers. What game we play and what outcome it has is entirely secondary to the simple goal of having fun.


Finally, as to putting it on the hard players...

Well...

It's the only place you can put it, really.

Problem is that you can't ask a newb about to play his first game to "bring his a-game". He's simply not able to do that. A veteran, on the other hand, most likely have a big collection and can fairly easily come up with a b-game list.


Now, of course a newb (or any player, for that matter) should not demand that his opponent changes his play-style. No-one should make demands of anyone - this is a social hobby and we should all be welcome.

However, if you're a veteran player and insist on being allowed to trash newbs, using your a-game tournament list. Well... You shouldn't be surprised then, if the newb feels unfairly treated and decides to quit. Not all will do that, of course, but some will. And that goes against my personal belief that we should all be welcome.

I'm reminded of a huge debate I got involved in on WarSeer some time ago. One member said (and I'm paraphrasing from memory here) that he had a right to always bring his a-game and that everyone else in the club did the same. Fine, I replied, but that would not be a club where I would want to play as that's not how I want to play the game and it's a shame the the club is so exclusive rather then inclusive.

After that, tempers flared a bit...


I'm glad that you specifically point out that you don't hold my preferences in contempt. However, threads as this one, and the one on WarSeer, sometimes does give me the feeling that some tournament players do truly look down upon anyone who doesn't bring their a-game and that anyone who, like me, bring a fluffy (what I like to call a f-game) list are insulting them by not offering them enough opposition.

Sadly, I have to admit that occasionally I'm just as bad (and if I have insulted anyone here I apologize), and just as intolerant as they are. I've been burned so many times now that perhaps I tend to be slightly judgmental myself. Thankfully, I have now found a club where people are generally as laid back as I am. Sure, some of them could easily table me if I started to smacktalk them, but in general they go easy on me and other newbs.

Each to his own - and I've now found a place where I can relax and feel at home when gaming.


But still, I would suggest that, for the veterans, it pays to go a bit easy on newbs, lest they scare them away for good as it nearly happened for me.


Anyway, I think I'm rambling a bit here. Sorry...

Tournament Players dont hold casual players in contempt in the slightest. That creates an "Use Vs Them" attitude that ruins the hobby.
No what people hate is getting pissed on for bringing those lists. No matter what those lists will show up in games and you should be prepaered for it. You cant live in fantasy land where Riptide/serpent spam does not exist. People find these power lists fun, just like you shouldnt piss on people bring casual lists you shouldnt piss on people bring power lists

And calling him a 'baby seal' is not holding him in contempt?

Riiiggghhhttt....,

The Auld Grump

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Tournament Players dont hold casual players in contempt in the slightest. That creates an "Use Vs Them" attitude that ruins the hobby.
No what people hate is getting pissed on for bringing those lists. No matter what those lists will show up in games and you should be prepaered for it. You cant live in fantasy land where Riptide/serpent spam does not exist. People find these power lists fun, just like you shouldnt piss on people bring casual lists you shouldnt piss on people bring power lists

So hang on you say there shouldn't be an "us V them" yet you say that people should be prepared for your list? How about you bring a list on the same level as mine? or is that "unacceptable"?

Adding onto to that you say we cant live in a fantasy world where riptide serpent spam does not exist, ok then but you also cant live in a fantasy land where there are casual players such as myself who just wants to play with units that we want to use, further more we all live in a "fantasy land" as 40k is a game of well... fantasy in space right?

Remember that competitive 40k is not the only way to play the game (I for example hate the competitive side of 40k as imo all it is, is I-have-rules-hammer), we all have our preferences in a game I like to see duels against warlords, Hellbrutes smashing things (then get blown up by a lascannon ) etc, etc, you might like the tactical insight of 40k, as said there is different styles for everyone.

No offence but your statement sounded to me contradictory.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Tournament Players dont hold casual players in contempt in the slightest. That creates an "Use Vs Them" attitude that ruins the hobby.
No what people hate is getting pissed on for bringing those lists. No matter what those lists will show up in games and you should be prepaered for it. You cant live in fantasy land where Riptide/serpent spam does not exist. People find these power lists fun, just like you shouldnt piss on people bring casual lists you shouldnt piss on people bring power lists

In an unbalanced mess of a game based around 'collecting, and painting models' there are going to be a lot of people who buy what is fun to paint, not what is statistically superior. You also have a game where those expensive models or the ability to have a large variety of models is very expensive and someone may not be able to prepare for 8 necron flyers or a crapton of riptides by buying, modeling and painting 90 lootas or even having to dump a neglected army and buy a whole new one.

It is perfectly reasonable for people to play 40k in an environment which the people don't prepare for tourney play and don't have to worry about getting their models smashed by a hammer because someone who has more money and a hard-on for winning feels like rolling in an 'teaching' them all how bad they are for not buying the FotM and spamming it.

I once went to a 'casual' gaming weekend event. Toned down my lists and took things I'd otherwise never do.

Wasn't a lot of fun, in fact, it was the worst, if not one of the worst gaming day experiences I've had. I faced Tervigon spam with mycetic spore'd Devourer Gaunts, Genestealers and a Swarmlord in one game and the final big game of 3000 points was against a guy who could have won a tournament with his Plague Marine, MC spam and FW flyer list. The only game where I had a hope in hell of winning was the first, which was pretty much the only fun game.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Tournament Players dont hold casual players in contempt in the slightest. That creates an "Use Vs Them" attitude that ruins the hobby.
No what people hate is getting pissed on for bringing those lists. No matter what those lists will show up in games and you should be prepaered for it. You cant live in fantasy land where Riptide/serpent spam does not exist. People find these power lists fun, just like you shouldnt piss on people bring casual lists you shouldnt piss on people bring power lists

You "don't hold casual players in contempt", but feel the urge to give him a lesson and prepare him because he "can't live in fantasy land".

Stop being TFG and get a life.

Contempt means I hate them, I do not hate them. What I do not like is being villianized for playing a list I like.

That is not what contempt generally means, and is quite obviously not what is being meant here.

Ok, So tell me what contempt mean because over here it typically means hate.
And maybe I hould give a bigger picture. This guy has played for a year or so, he knows the rules. He has played another local tournament player who comes by regularly and teaches use to play(He taught me list building and how to move). Maybe Baby seal isnt the best analogy. HE clearly knew his codex. I also helped him like "If your warp talons DS here I cannot shoot them next turn, move your land raider closer so your chosen can assualt" We both had fun. And he promised games to 2 other people so when I was up 7-4 he conceded so he could play. I was not a jerk, I helped him

con·tempt
/kənˈtem(p)t/
Noun
The feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn.
Disregard for something that should be taken into account.

Certainly things you hate you're more likely to find contemptible, but you don't need to hate something to hold it in contempt. Hate is used too easily by a lot of people.

Edit: you've gone from "he's new" and "he was distressed" to "he's played for over a year and had fun". Something is not adding up.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Contempt means I hate them, I do not hate them. What I do not like is being villianized for playing a list I like.

Look, you've got 6k posts. This is my fourth one. You're known here. There are witnesses.

Do you really want a french guy to teach you english ?

Of course you want. Stay still, baby seal !
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/educated?q=educated

That was a good joke.
And how does a Frenchmen play war games anyway? Do you just write "I surrender" on your list and give to your opponent or o you wait until models are deployed to do that?

And now the threads went off topic, I think...

When I got started off, my friends played me with very toned down lists and generally encouraged me to proxy so that I could understand the game better. There was some rough patches though because I started in late 5th with 4th ed Tau and while they liked to play high point values that meant I needed to spend lots of points on upgrades for the few things I actually did have to reach those levels. I lost games and realized I needed to play at lower point values so I wouldn't stretch myself thin. Then we started playing lots of team games so I could learn in game with my team mate(s). I stopped needing to bring Devilfish loaded with upgrades because I only needed to field half an army. It let me slowly build up to the level where I could stand on my own.

Also when someone says "Don't hold back" they should probably specify. If I was playing a new player who said that, I'd bring a somewhat normal list but I wouldn't play as aggressively. I would maybe try to cause enough damage to force moral checks but not try to eliminate entire units; He still learns about vulnerability while getting to use the units still. I wouldn't try to make the game a landslide, but I'd still try to win; He would learn little by little what he could have done to win the game. It makes it simple and still fun. What went right: I learned that the X guns are trash and Y cannons are pretty fun. What could I do better: I should have pushed forward the last round to contest objectives instead of playing defensively so long. Remember that a new player probably doesn't know his limits or the game well enough. So when they say "don't hold back" or "I only have about 1K, but I guess I could stretch up to 1.5K" then they probably don't have the experience to know what to expect. Maybe go over the lists before hand so you can point out an obvious problem that would make the game one sided, like bringing 3 heldrakes and him having no skyfire or units with better than a 3+.

I've had games where I've gotten absolutely slaughtered by a more experienced player and I learned nothing because too much went wrong for me to really pull any useful bits of knowledge from that.
Have you ever had one of those games? Where you end up only killing a hand full of your opponents models while 80% of your army has been removed? And then your opponent realizes he forgot to put a whole squad on the table and they've been in reserves. I've been on both sides of that. It's not fun and there is nothing to learn. What went right: Nothing. What could I do better: I don't even know. That's what you end up with.

 Litcheur wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Contempt means I hate them, I do not hate them. What I do not like is being villianized for playing a list I like.

Look, you've got 6k posts. This is my fourth one. You're known here. There are witnesses.

Do you really want a french guy to teach you english ?

Of course you want. Stay still, baby seal !
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/educated?q=educated

Four posts in and you're proving you're a condescending prick? Yep, good job

Welcome to the ignore list, by the way.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Remember that a new player probably doesn't know his limits or the game well enough. So when they say "don't hold back" or "I only have about 1K, but I guess I could stretch up to 1.5K" then they probably don't have the experience to know what to expect. Maybe go over the lists before hand so you can point out an obvious problem that would make the game one sided, like bringing 3 heldrakes and him having no skyfire or units with better than a 3+.

This! I used to say this as well when I started out with Dystopian Wars and Warmachine, as I wanted to learn it properly, which lead to well, me no longer playing both those games because while I was playing them, I wasn't really taught the ins and outs of the game, but I still got my ass handed to me hard under the pretense of "asking for it!" Though when I was taught a thing or two about how to get the most out of a unit, it was usually swiftly followed by my opponent gaining the upper hand and utterly destroying me due to his tips more or less helping himself in the end.

"If you move so and so you'll be able to fire the most guns on your cruiser," which I did, only he played Antarctica, so while he was helpfully telling me how to best place my ships, he could the very next turn use some absurdly powerful beam weapon that hit and sank several of my ships in one shot, without telling me about the abilities of his ships first hand. "Oh yeah, I have a particle cannon, all ships in a straight line are now automatically hit, no shield generator saves allowed, bye bye!"

Don't even get me started on Warmachine, the competitive level is so high here it's not exactly newbie friendly or even encouraging to try. Plus when you play faction starters and you as a Khador player play against the Cryx starter.. "I vomit on your 'Jacks, so their movement is now 2", I throw the bonejacks at them and tear your caster apart, wanna try it again?"

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 Litcheur wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Contempt means I hate them, I do not hate them. What I do not like is being villianized for playing a list I like.

Look, you've got 6k posts. This is my fourth one. You're known here. There are witnesses.

Do you really want a french guy to teach you english ?

Of course you want. Stay still, baby seal !
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/educated?q=educated

Four posts in and you're proving you're a condescending prick? Yep, good job

Welcome to the ignore list, by the way.

Wait, wut ?

He's a prick for being correct about the misuse of a word ... which the post he quotes directly illustrates it's misuse ?

In what universe does this make him a condescending prick?

Also, way to call out ignoring someone. Nothing says "nanny nanny boo boo, i called you a name and now i'm sticking my fingers in my ears so i can't hear your retort" quite like announcing to the forum at large that you're ignoring someone.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
When I got started off, my friends played me with very toned down lists and generally encouraged me to proxy so that I could understand the game better. There was some rough patches though because I started in late 5th with 4th ed Tau and while they liked to play high point values that meant I needed to spend lots of points on upgrades for the few things I actually did have to reach those levels. I lost games and realized I needed to play at lower point values so I wouldn't stretch myself thin. Then we started playing lots of team games so I could learn in game with my team mate(s). I stopped needing to bring Devilfish loaded with upgrades because I only needed to field half an army. It let me slowly build up to the level where I could stand on my own.

Also when someone says "Don't hold back" they should probably specify. If I was playing a new player who said that, I'd bring a somewhat normal list but I wouldn't play as aggressively. I would maybe try to cause enough damage to force moral checks but not try to eliminate entire units; He still learns about vulnerability while getting to use the units still. I wouldn't try to make the game a landslide, but I'd still try to win; He would learn little by little what he could have done to win the game. It makes it simple and still fun. What went right: I learned that the X guns are trash and Y cannons are pretty fun. What could I do better: I should have pushed forward the last round to contest objectives instead of playing defensively so long. Remember that a new player probably doesn't know his limits or the game well enough. So when they say "don't hold back" or "I only have about 1K, but I guess I could stretch up to 1.5K" then they probably don't have the experience to know what to expect. Maybe go over the lists before hand so you can point out an obvious problem that would make the game one sided, like bringing 3 heldrakes and him having no skyfire or units with better than a 3+.

I've had games where I've gotten absolutely slaughtered by a more experienced player and I learned nothing because too much went wrong for me to really pull any useful bits of knowledge from that.
Have you ever had one of those games? Where you end up only killing a hand full of your opponents models while 80% of your army has been removed? And then your opponent realizes he forgot to put a whole squad on the table and they've been in reserves. I've been on both sides of that. It's not fun and there is nothing to learn. What went right: Nothing. What could I do better: I don't even know. That's what you end up with.

Yes I have, I have been on both sides of that. The guy who did it to me a couple of times has shown me what I did wrong and so forth. And I do feel he learned something, like maybe when you have two inches for assault dont shoot or you will kill your sure chance of getting in combat

Right.

But only if you're playing this game:

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/15805/seals-of-satan

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yes I have, I have been on both sides of that. The guy who did it to me a couple of times has shown me what I did wrong and so forth. And I do feel he learned something, like maybe when you have two inches for assault dont shoot or you will kill your sure chance of getting in combat

That's actually a pretty bad lesson. How exactly were the models lined up where the models removed from shooting actually ruined a garunteed charge? I think that's pretty far from a good lesson learned. It really depends on what he was shooting with, and what he was charging, along with what he rolled for the charge. Firing into a unit to soften them up and needing 3-4" on 2d6 is a pretty safe bet. If you think it helped teaching him to fear the odds, then you didn't do justice as a teacher.

Again, the issue is the guy quite on turn 3. Halfway through the game and he realized that nothing he could do would make a difference. That really implies that he had too much go wrong to really consider anything a learning opportunity. The only thing I've ever learned from games like that is that I was playing at a point level way beyond my means and went against something I had no tools to deal with. Basically my list was bad and I needed to start from the very beginning and nothing in that game would have really carried over.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And how does a Frenchmen play war games anyway? Do you just write "I surrender" on your list and give to your opponent or o you wait until models are deployed to do that?

Okay. You're the baby seal now.

Did you like it ? Was it enjoyable ?
Of course not. It sucks.

Now you know how the I'm the big dog here, play like you've got a pair thing really feels like to a casual gamer.

 Haight wrote:
Wait, wut ?

Actually, the mods politely asked me to stop kicking puppies.

Geez dude, Its like you never seen a "French are Cowards" Joke before. That was in jest

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Geez dude, Its like you never seen a "French are Cowards" Joke before. That was in jest

Little hint, people who are from the country in question generally don't derive huge amusement from racial stereotype humour.

You dumb, fat yank.

I iz not dum nor phat.

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 Litcheur wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Contempt means I hate them, I do not hate them. What I do not like is being villianized for playing a list I like.

Look, you've got 6k posts. This is my fourth one. You're known here. There are witnesses.

Do you really want a french guy to teach you english ?

Of course you want. Stay still, baby seal !
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/educated?q=educated

Four posts in and you're proving you're a condescending prick? Yep, good job

Welcome to the ignore list, by the way.

And yet... he was correcting somebody else's incorrect correction.... If his correction was 'condescending' then the first correction would have to be both condescending and wrong.

So, he is still right. That is what contempt means, and why I used the term.

Anger is not needed for contempt, merely disdain.

And that is exactly what the OP was expressing about his opponent.

I think that I can find a use for that term now, too... though not with either the OP nor the person that you seem so negatively impressed by..

The OP has changed his description of the game and player over the course of this thread - soon the opponent will not be a 'baby seal' but instead a 'fully trained battle walrus! With... photon flippers... or something...'.

The Auld Grump, though the old White Wolf Magazine game Seal of Satan was pretty fun....

Honestly, the first post read like, "I know I was a jerk doing this, so I'm going to go to the internet to seek validation and justify myself so I don't feel guilty about it."

"He looked distressed"

"he looked like he was not having fun."

Chances are, he wasn't and he probably had every right to.

There are plenty of options you could have done, suggesting playing a smaller point game comes to mind, then dropping your marine segment. Perhaps suggesting a more narrative scenario, and have your marines being rescued by the Tau, or some other idea.

I've seen lots of new players go through similar situations against other players with 'optimised' builds. Most of the time, it's just an exercising in ego stroking for the 'optimised' player and the other guy goes off to play another game, assuming he comes back to the club at all.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
'fully trained battle walrus! With... photon flippers... or something...'

Why is this not a thing? How much money do I need to hurl to make this a thing?

Okay, in a more serious contribution, the first thing that you have to be aware of is that 40k is *not* a balanced game, and the rules are not good. Fun, yes. Good, feth no.

Taking an internet list to a non-tourney game is kinda like using your fully-geared up character to smash some level 1 noob in an online game.

Which is fine if you both know what to expect from the game, not so fine if you didn't.

Dude, even from the very first post, you didn't sound that far out of line. It sounds like you came in without knowing how poor a player he was. When you realized his skill level was way below yours, it sounds like you tried to give him some underhand lobs. Seems like he wasn't up to that level of skill either, and you feel bad about thrashing him. There's only so much responsibility you can take for someone else's lack of competency with the game. Try to give him a good game obviously, try to show him how to play better, but if he still loses, then don't feel bad.

 Compel wrote:
Honestly, the first post read like, "I know I was a jerk doing this, so I'm going to go to the internet to seek validation and justify myself so I don't feel guilty about it."

"He looked distressed"

"he looked like he was not having fun."

Chances are, he wasn't and he probably had every right to.

There are plenty of options you could have done, suggesting playing a smaller point game comes to mind, then dropping your marine segment. Perhaps suggesting a more narrative scenario, and have your marines being rescued by the Tau, or some other idea.

I've seen lots of new players go through similar situations against other players with 'optimised' builds. Most of the time, it's just an exercising in ego stroking for the 'optimised' player and the other guy goes off to play another game, assuming he comes back to the club at all.

Pretty much agree with this.

The whole situation just sounds horrendous..

 Pacific wrote:

 Compel wrote:
Honestly, the first post read like, "I know I was a jerk doing this, so I'm going to go to the internet to seek validation and justify myself so I don't feel guilty about it."

"He looked distressed"

"he looked like he was not having fun."

Chances are, he wasn't and he probably had every right to.

There are plenty of options you could have done, suggesting playing a smaller point game comes to mind, then dropping your marine segment. Perhaps suggesting a more narrative scenario, and have your marines being rescued by the Tau, or some other idea.

I've seen lots of new players go through similar situations against other players with 'optimised' builds. Most of the time, it's just an exercising in ego stroking for the 'optimised' player and the other guy goes off to play another game, assuming he comes back to the club at all.

Pretty much agree with this.

The whole situation just sounds horrendous..

Seconded. If I were the OP's opponent, I'd probably come to the conclusion that the OP was being a bit of a TFG (in fact, the posts you've made in this thread do lead me to the conclusion that you have latent TFG signs - get rid of them before you loose opponents).

My advice - tailor your game and your forces to your opponent and vice versa. Always make sure you've got a few list variants and the forces to go. Educate and engage with your opponent with dialogue. Try to gage their level of play and their expectations. Discuss the kind of game you both want at the start. Common courtesy demands that much at least.

Opponent looking for a real challenge or gearing up for a tournament? Go all out
Opponent is very much a casual player looking for a friendly game? Avoid those TFG instincts and instead of trying to crush them, try new units, tactics, education, explanation of your choices and talk about their choices.

I have to agree with the guys who posted above. The account of this game and the opponent has changed rather substantially since the original post.

The post should have been titled "Is it wrong to decimate and opponent with a power list when they are playing a friendly list'.

That being the case, of course this is not wrong but will likely result in the player declining to play you again in future. I have yet to meet anyone who enjoys being tabled be the 3rd turn.

It would seem now, that the opponent just wanted to finish up so he could go play somebody else and enjoy a good game.

Meh. Smash him, its the only way he'll learn not to suck.

Or is fancier terms it will force him to either ascend and challenge himself or regress into lameness that is Goobhammer.

Hotsauce, by your own admission he appeared to not be having a good time. You're likely right. You shouldn't be bringing a tournament ready list to a new player game unless that's what has been agreed upon. Not everybody enjoys learning a game by getting their teeth kicked in.

I tried to tell him and showed him my list. He seemed fine with it. I told him 3 times im planning on using this for tournaments. He never once said no.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I tried to tell him and showed him my list. He seemed fine with it. I told him 3 times im planning on using this for tournaments. He never once said no.

How is a new player/baby seal supposed to judge a list? Is it a different codex? He probably had no clue at all what kind of nastiness was contained in your list and just conceded so he didn't look foolish.

I think we're starting to go to the crux of the issue right now.

OP, I think what happened is that when you showed him the list he probably lacked the ability to gauge exactly what that meant. A normal reasonable person would not expect a game like Warhammer to have such a huge game breaking balance problem. A reasonable person would have interpreted that statement as a list that you were simply going to be playing at a tournament that you wanted to try out. Not as the game breaking, overpowering, overwhelming, exploitative list that it actually is.

I guess that was true. He was a little surprised at twin linked Pathfinders and Lascannnons with tank hunter and Ignore cover and rerolls to hit

Tournament game, it's fair game, but be sure to help your opponent if you know you are gonna win. Assist him with rules and such.

Casual play, well why are you playing a tournament list in casual play? Aside from that, find out if the player is new. Adjust from there.

My biggest problem is experienced players wanted to "get practice" with their netlist, and playing it against new players. 2 repeat offenders at my FLGS. It was driving away players, so I had to put a stop to it.

 juraigamer wrote:
My biggest problem is experienced players wanted to "get practice" with their netlist, and playing it against new players. 2 repeat offenders at my FLGS. It was driving away players, so I had to put a stop to it.

You and your double-barreled sawnoff.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
That was a good joke.
And how does a Frenchmen play war games anyway? Do you just write "I surrender" on your list and give to your opponent or o you wait until models are deployed to do that?

You may want to check how much the French helped you to win the American Revolution.

Without them, you'd all still be speaking English.

I am a new 40K player and I see it both ways.

Its not a lot of fun to get wiped off the board without a word on what I am doing wrong. (has happened, I just hope the other person had fun)

But I also want to learn, so the going easy on me isn't doing anyone any favors.

Personally all I want is some respect as a fellow hobbyist, so go full out but give me some ideas of what I am doing wrong.

If clubbing baby seals is your thing, I am cool with that. But give the baby seal some info to get better in the future.

My old Warhammer group had the mentality of this. There are a couple people who requested getting beaten on to get better. The majority of players left, or refused to play the people doing it. I played the occasional game with the guys, but usually fobbed off excuses to avoid Warhammer games. It's a mentality that fits for very few people. Most people, while remaining friendly about it, really hate the playstyle of getting pounded on. I've been one of the "baby seals" when WHFB 8 came out. Really didn't enjoy it too much, but got a couple fun games in.

Big P wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
That was a good joke.
And how does a Frenchmen play war games anyway? Do you just write "I surrender" on your list and give to your opponent or o you wait until models are deployed to do that?

You may want to check how much the French helped you to win the American Revolution.

Without them, you'd all still be speaking English.

Off topic I know but I always point out to my English friends that I am their worst enemy. I know enough military history to know we should love the French and hate the English. Although we probably should still own Nova Scotia if it wasn't for your peace treaty terms.

Have we even seen the list in order to judge just how nasty it was?

I've been clubbed before and it great to be snapped back into reality. In 4th edition I played a lot of fluff driven lists with my friends and then skipped over most of 5th. During that break I lurked the forums and kept fairly current with 40k. I jumped back in when 6th dropped and brought some pretty decent lists -> I got smacked around though because the list doesn't tell you how to deploy or prioritize targets.

I got clubbed my first game of 6th and then won the next 2. If my first opponent went easy on me and made it a close game then I probably would have deployed exactly the same in my next games (thinking that maybe it was the dice that had caused me to lose).

I bet some of my opponents have gone home after losing and written better lists/thought through their strategy a bit more before playing.

We need to stop handing out gold stars to people who aren't deserving. Anyone who is serious about getting into wargaming will take all their losses and look at it in a positive light.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Have we even seen the list in order to judge just how nasty it was?

Tau tech commander(Ignores covers, reroll to hits Tank hunter)

2x squads of Firewarriors

Riptide

7 pathfinders

2broadisdes

Sky ray

tigarious with divination

2 Tact squads(One with a melta gun one with a plasma) in drop pods

Lascannon Devs, hanging with the Tau commander.

My friend helped me build it to play to taking objectives and holding others.

His

1 Lord with Mon
Kharn

3 units of cultist
1 unit of CSM

Chosen all with MON in a Land raider

Warp talons

Helbrute
Oh and terminators with mark or tzeentch

His list just looks so confused. I mean lots of cultist but nothing really to bubble wrap and no decent firepower to put out.
Nurgle Chosen in a Landraider just seems expensive since he went with a nurgle lord and didn't bring plague marines.
Helbrute's aren't bad but there isn't enough threats to keep this alive. I'm willing to bet it was taken out pretty quicly or reduced to uselessness.

Your list is way more goal oriented than the Chaos list and it doesn't even look like it could hold it's own in a standard casual game really. It looks extremely one sided just on paper alone.

Prettu much all of the above.

So your ltittle pony avatar is a ruse you realy are a

Whenever you play a new player to the hobby, follow these rules.

1. Ask to see his army list, then make a hard counter for it.
2. Be sure to tell him how poorly he's doing. Constantly.
3. Tell him that his models look like a blind, epileptic chimp on crack painted them.
4. Every time he kills one of your models, be sure to say "Beginners Luck."
5. After the game, refuse to shake his hand. Be sure to put in a barb about "I only shake the hands of winners."
6. Ask him if his mom is dating anyone. Ask if she's interested three-ways.
7. Immediately pretend to call someone on your cell phone and tell them how you totally owned some worthless noob.

Save the Clubbing. Teach or Warn the Seal. If he ignores the warning CLUB AWAY.

I will only club a baby seal if I need a pair of warm mittens.

Some mates of mine used to run a (night)club back in the 90s.

It was called "the harp seal" and the signature drink was a "canadian club, on the rocks".

Would one solution be to play two games - one with your own army, then after wiping him out, swap over and let him play your list.
This way he gets to experience a new force, and youget to show him that his own list can do some sneaky things and stand a chance. Hopefully he is not only inspired, but realises that he doesnt suck?

Or better yet, switch armies and show him a few things with what he's got. That way he can see that using simple tactics can make the difference.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
... I am biased - I used to teach Military Science to children at a program for gifted youth. The Auld Grump

military science as in air planes, and tanks, and portable generators, and medicine, rockets, and espionage, and surveillance? Aw man, I love that stuff. I'll never forgive my parents for never encouraging me, or enlisting me into those schools or classes. Instead, I have to learn algebra, and statistics. Man, that . Kids wants to learn about cool stuff that can build empires, or destroy one. You should give me a few lessons Auld Gump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
... I am biased - I used to teach Military Science to children at a program for gifted youth. The Auld Grump

Are you Harrison Ford?

 Pacific wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
... I am biased - I used to teach Military Science to children at a program for gifted youth. The Auld Grump

Are you Harrison Ford?

No, he's the man Harrison Ford wishes he was,

Did you know or plan ahead of time to play the new guy, or was it a random encounter during game night?

If you knew or planned ahead, then I feel you did "club a baby seal". I say this because you knew ahead of time what his experience level was, and more than likely what his list was going to be, and you still brought a hard core tournament list.

You could have coached him through list building and brought your list down to meet him. You could have used the game to experiment with different units (based on your opening comments I doubt you could/would do this).

If it was a random encounter at game night there are a myriad of ways you could have made it easier on him and harder on you. When I come across a new player, I'll throw almost everything out the window except for the basic game mechanics and turn sequence. If I kill a unit, I'll tell them not to take it off until they get to see what it does, or let them back up and try a different move and stratigy. I won't worry about victory conditions. I know this might be heresy, but it helps them and ME to learn their army. I also use random encounter games and game nights to experiment with my army. Throw things in just for the heck of it, or take units that haven't taken in a while.

The point I think many of the posters are trying to make is that your opponent was still a newbie. Yes, he's been playing for a few months, but it has only been with a close friend. It's like a group of neighborhood kids playing baseball in an empty lot suddenly playing against a major league baseball team. They are playing the same game, but their skill level are on completely different levels.