SO I started this thread to get a general idea of how my fellow BA feel about our... lackluster codex, and the things they are doing in an attempt to overcome this. Or, just to cheer each other up with epic stories of close wins or hard won battles. cheers!

Just click on Martel's post history, he's summed it up more than once

I've killed several GK lists with reserved Stormravens by overrunning their deployment zone in the first two turns.

Shield of sanguinius/FNP is actually decent defense against C:SM gravy guns. But falls apart against "Simpsons did it!". That is the new term for Taudar.

Oh, and I used fast mech to kite around SW until they were mostly dead. Fun, but still kind of humiliating.

Mephiston can make Wraithknights very sad until the Eldar do to him what they do to everything else.

I think I stole one from a DA player with Corbulo shenanigans, but I really should have lost that one, too.

The worst part about BA is when I army swap, how easy they are to beat. Do this, do that, neutralize that one unit, and then the BA totally fall apart. I expect every opponent to know these things and am surprised when they don't.

Oh, yeah, there are stormraven spam lists, but now the vanilla marines do that better as well.

The Codex is now one of the older ones so it is what it is.

I will say this, even though that is the case I have won A lot more than I've lost in 6th in fairly competitive games (not full blown spam craziness tourney games though mind you). Its some what freeing knowing however that when I play them no one expects too terribly much and has let me play around a lot with running DC+Chaplain armies and just random crayness, its always hilarious when my opponent tells me I cant score and I inform them I have no plans to score I'm just going to make sure he has nothing left to score with either, this has also lead to me being told your DC are OP over and over as my odd ball lists are not what people are used to playing against and this throws people off.

I guess my point is go crazy with them at this moment and do things that will make you laugh and entertain you while playing if you can. They're not a top codex anymore for now and we will have to wait our turn in line until our army is brought in line (I really think we will be the last codex done in 6th, unless they re-do those dirty crons as well, then next to last lol) with the new lower point costs and hopefully like all assault armies in the game being re-done are given a few things to help us out in 6th.

I'd kill to have a single person call DC OP and mean it. They're just too easily shot to death.

I really don't think the BA codex will really be any better than C:SM. It will very likely be worse HTH than Nids or Orks and still get evaporated in shooting by "Simpsons did it!".

As Mr. Miyagi said, "You walk middle of the road, SQUISH, just like grape!".

Martel, your nailed it but

***The worst part about BA is when I army swap, how easy they are to beat. Do this, do that, neutralize that one unit, and then the BA totally fall apart. I expect every opponent to know these things and am surprised when they don't. [u]*** <------ this soooooo so much this lol

I always feel the same exact way and I suspect its how I've won more than I feel I should've. After most games I just think wow I would've done this or that in their position and my army would've just got its teeth kicked in, but I guess that's tactics for you.

Yeah, well, overcostedness snowballs so quickly in 6th. Orks wipe up BA because boyz aren't overcosted and BA troops are. It gets worse from there. And Orks don't take No Retreat wounds anymore. Score!

BlackArmour wrote:
The Codex is now one of the older ones so it is what it is.

I will say this, even though that is the case I have won A lot more than I've lost in 6th in fairly competitive games (not full blown spam craziness tourney games though mind you). Its some what freeing knowing however that when I play them no one expects too terribly much and has let me play around a lot with running DC+Chaplain armies and just random crayness, its always hilarious when my opponent tells me I cant score and I inform them I have no plans to score I'm just going to make sure he has nothing left to score with either, this has also lead to me being told your DC are OP over and over as my odd ball lists are not what people are used to playing against and this throws people off.

I guess my point is go crazy with them at this moment and do things that will make you laugh and entertain you while playing if you can. They're not a top codex anymore for now and we will have to wait our turn in line until our army is brought in line (I really think we will be the last codex done in 6th, unless they re-do those dirty crons as well, then next to last lol) with the new lower point costs and hopefully like all assault armies in the game being re-done are given a few things to help us out in 6th.

so a list like this?

Astorath- 220
10 man tac squad w/ flamer and ML- 170
5 man scout w/ snipers and camo cloaks-90
10 DC w/ jump packs 3 PFs 2 power axes- 455
10 man DC w/ Lemartes, jump packs, 2 THs- 560
Corbulo- 105
Storm Raven- 200
Storm Raven - 200

lets just hope corbulo can tank the hell outa wounds! lol.


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honestly,,, if DC got jump packs for 3pts a model I would be happy happy happy! lol.

Instead of 15? You think?

I dunno, not much sympathy for BA. Its your turn in the cycle, when you hit you'll be better than SM or DA. Right now you have options (run as something else PA, or ally in other PA 'dexs). This is all pretty predictable and expected after all.

Some of the really stout tourney players have placed top 10ish with BA at GTs.... tough, but you can still meta bust a bit. Club play, well you can still have fun. I still run BlueBloods for fun and enjoy it.

There was a decent competitive list at the Nova. It included the following:

2 Stormravens
Terminators TH/SS
Mephiston
Furioso with Talons
3 Assault Squads

There may have been some priests as well. The tactic was to bring the Stormravens on moving 36" across the board and then use the Skies of Blood rules to drop everything off right behind them before interceptor can be used. This effectively gives your opponent five different units in his face to worry about right off the bat and gives the Assault marines time to move up the board.

EDIT: I forgot to add that the Furioso can go in either Stormraven depending on who you are up against.

 Lobukia wrote:
I dunno, not much sympathy for BA. Its your turn in the cycle, when you hit you'll be better than SM or DA. Right now you have options (run as something else PA, or ally in other PA 'dexs). This is all pretty predictable and expected after all.

Some of the really stout tourney players have placed top 10ish with BA at GTs.... tough, but you can still meta bust a bit. Club play, well you can still have fun. I still run BlueBloods for fun and enjoy it.

I don't see much indication of this being likely. They could very well take away cents and grav weapons and give the BA very lame CC chapter tactics. After the DA and C:SM codices, I'm not really that enthusiastic.


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 DarthOvious wrote:
There was a decent competitive list at the Nova. It included the following:

2 Stormravens
Terminators TH/SS
Mephiston
Furioso with Talons
3 Assault Squads

There may have been some priests as well. The tactic was to bring the Stormravens on moving 36" across the board and then use the Skies of Blood rules to drop everything off right behind them before interceptor can be used. This effectively gives your opponent five different units in his face to worry about right off the bat and gives the Assault marines time to move up the board.

EDIT: I forgot to add that the Furioso can go in either Stormraven depending on who you are up against.

Maybe I'm just desensitized, but I just don't see that as that scary. Some good target prioritization will take care of this.

I love it when people try and argue that the BA codex is amazing. It really isn't. I played with them for about 6 months and I found them really disappointing in 6th Edition in general. Not to mention all of your Assault Marines used to get toasted by those Hell Turkeys.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe I'm just desensitized, but I just don't see that as that scary. Some good target prioritization will take care of this.

Apparently the guy did fairly well with it for a BA list. I got this info from the BA forum on Bolter & Chainsword.

It was Kenny (or Kevin?) Boucher from the BoLS podcast and some painting service that ran the NOVA BA list. He talks about it in one of the podcasts and on an episode of 11th Company. There's also a battle report from one of his NOVA games on youtube.


Current BA is a pretty sad state of affairs, really. You need to absolutely optimize the army and not bring anything that isn't perfect (or as good as it gets in the BA army, anyway) at its job, and then you need to practice a lot to play it perfectly, and even then you get trashed by the top armies. There are just so many builds BA flat out can't deal with.

Yeah, I read his reports. I feel his opponents made some mistakes, but hats off to Kenny for sure. His list just has a lot of points of failure (due to randomness, not Kenny failing), but any BA list is going to.

I dunno, not much sympathy for BA. Its your turn in the cycle, when you hit you'll be better than SM or DA. Right now you have options (run as something else PA, or ally in other PA 'dexs). This is all pretty predictable and expected after all.

Exactly. BA have been my primary since the second ed box set and we've had very little to complain about over the years. It's just our turn in the cycle so I'm not overly concerned. People complain about this book like it just came out yesterday. If that were the case I'd be the first in line to knock it. Really though, it's not a lackluster book (I defy even Martel to find one single good example of someone saying it was lackluster when it first came out), it's just an OLD book. The edition change has caused our points to be too high and has nerfed some of our main strengths. That's a bit annoying but not really anything to rage over. Considering we've had one of the stronger books through many editions I can handle being on the down side for a little bit.

GW seems committed to updating everyone during this edition and I'm sure our new book will be awesome. Some times my fellow BA complain so hard it's almost like the secretly WANT the book to be bad. Meh ...

2 Stormravens
Terminators TH/SS
Mephiston
Furioso with Talons
3 Assault Squads

Fairly similar to what I run. People on the net will have you believe that Storm Ravens are falling from the skies like rain and that dreadnaughts explode automatically the second they hit the table but I've not found that to be true. Tau are a tough match up for this list as are Eldar, but they are tough for everyone right now. Over all though it's still a fun list to play IMO.


EDIT:

I've also been using them as allies for my DA. A squad of jump pack DC with a Sang Priest makes a great escort for Ravenwing and since the DA flyers are kind of weak it's nice to be able to bring a Storm Raven. Anyone else running them as allies? I'd be curious to hear your ideas.

Codex BA was very nasty in the 5th meta. However, other lists were able to adapt to it. At the same time, it was never better than the IG or the SW, and the GK and Necrons quickly made everyone forget about it.

Even in 5th, the BA had many of the problems they do now. Poor model count. Bad internal balance. In fact, the magical 5th edition vehicle damage table and razorbacks is really what made my BA winners. If left to ASM spam, I would never have gotten over the IG and SW hump.

Compare to the lack of ability to adapt to Taudar without bringing unkillable deathstars.

However, other lists were able to adapt to it. At the same time, it was never better than the IG or the SW, and the GK and Necrons quickly made everyone forget about it.

Not sure what you're looking for from the book really. That statement is true of almost every codex. Plus, GW even stated that 'Crons was really written with 6th in mind anyway so of course it crushed the fifth ed meta ...

Even in 5th, the BA had many of the problems they do now. Poor model count. Bad internal balance.

Agree to disagree. I mean yeah, they had limited model count but not excessively so considering what they could bring. I found the internal balance to be excellent and the one possible thing that's actually improved a bit in 6th. I agree the points in 6th are way TOO much now, but did not feel that way in 5th.

In fact, the magical 5th edition vehicle damage table and razorbacks is really what made my BA winners. If left to ASM spam, I would never have gotten over the IG and SW hump.

So you had to use a different tool to overcome a different style opponent AND you had that tool readily available to you? I know books that would have killed for that type of flexibilty. Again, not sure what you're after. To be clear, I'm not trying to be a jerk or rag on you or anything. It's just that I don't see some of this as issues.

Compare to the lack of ability to adapt to Taudar without bringing unkillable deathstars.

Right, but again, that's true of EVERY book right now. What answer does the new CSM book have for Taudar? What about the brand new DA book? Demons get smacked around pretty hard by them as well. Like I said, just not clear what you're after. Things being too points restrictive is definitely (imo) a legit complaint that is particular to the BA book right now, but really, a lot of your other comments are true of many of the books right now.

I thought daemons could hang with screamerstar shenanigans.

The internal balance of the BA codex is and was awful. SG and VV have always been bad, as has most of the special characters. As were bikes in 5th. And tac squads.

Most BA units were actually a bit overcosted in 5th. Especially compared to IG and SW and later GK and Necrons. But most BA players ended up avoiding the trap units and doing well anyway.

What I'm saying is that the BA really weren't a QUALITY codex, they just got to take discounted razorbacks that had a magical damage table that protected them. Most other BA schemes, including mass decent of angels were easily handled by good players. 5th was the beginning of the end for low model count lists with middling resiliency, and now 6th is the nail in the coffin.

I'd say this book (from what you guys have said) is the biggest flaw with how GW does new editions. BA used to be amazing when they came out in 5th. Top of the charts. Now they're at the very bottom?! Sure, a great player can win with them. But an average player looking for a fun game? Not likely. The BA book didn't change, but the main rules cleaned enough house to make them go from top to bottom. This shouldn't happen. Of course, all books should be as close to even as possible, but that's another matter.

BA were below SW and IG even on the day they dropped in 5th. And it took the BA players in my area a while to figure out Orks. And then they got kicked in the power-jimmies by the GK.

What you're saying is actually true of 3rd edition BA. Totally broken from day one and never really surpassed. 5th edition BA took plasma to face and died like little bitches just like they do now.

Huh. I ran the roost with BA in fifth (I bandwagoned), and got bored and sold them cuz they were too good. I switched to BT afterwards and had loads more fun (the holy hand grenade had nothing to do with my decision, I swear). I made that jump well before 6th though. Never had an issue smoking IG in my area.

IG, properly constructed, had the firepower to blow BA off the table. Descent of angels didn't really help, because you were in perfect battle cannon formation. Again, you were praying for terrain to save you. Weak sauce.

What I'm saying is that the BA really weren't a QUALITY codex, they just got to take discounted razorbacks that had a magical damage table that protected them. Most other BA schemes, including mass decent of angels were easily handled by good players. 5th was the beginning of the end for low model count lists with middling resiliency, and now 6th is the nail in the coffin.

I agree that 6th beat book up kind of bad but a lot of codexes struggle through edition changes. Again, most of your complaints could be equally applied to nearly ALL of the other books but you're talking about BA as though they were some kind of unique failure or something ...

Also, while razorspam was quite good, you can find a myriad of examples all over the net of people having success without that build both last edition and this one so I'm not sure that criticism is 100 percent valid.

I thought daemons could hang with screamerstar shenanigans.

Right up until SMS and marker lights eliminate the cover saves and/or ignore LOS to Fateweaver and whomever is holding the Grimoire ...

I can almost guarantee their successes were not against optimized IG, SW, Necron, or GK. BA pay a premium to bring FNP and in 5th plasma cut straight through it. Psyrifleman doubled BA out. The solution was to hide behind AV 11.

The BA are somewhat unique in that they put armies out that get tabled in 2-3 turns by Tau/Eldar. It's only happened to me once, but I've seen it several times.

BA uniqueness is their very, very low model count if you use an average cross section of the codex. You have to avoid 2/3 of the codex like the plague to field a reasonably sized force. This was true even in 5th.

I can almost guarantee their successes were not against optimized IG, SW, Necron, or GK. BA pay a premium to bring FNP and in 5th plasma cut straight through it. Psyrifleman doubled BA out. The solution was to hide behind AV 11.

Some of them were in fact GTs against those very armies. GK and Newcrons were definitely bad matchups but again, how does that make the BA different from any other codex that wasn't GK or 'Crons?

The BA are somewhat unique in that they put armies out that get tabled in 2-3 turns by Tau/Eldar. It's only happened to me once, but I've seen it several times.

Soooo .... just like everyone else? With the exception of massive horde type armies I've seen Taudar table pretty much everyone that fast.

BA uniqueness is their very, very low model count if you use an average cross section of the codex. You have to avoid 2/3 of the codex like the plague to field a reasonably sized force. This was true even in 5th.

I found in 5th that I could field decent sized armies and still use a good variety of untis so YMMV on that. I mean yeah, they were still smaller on average than everyone else's, but when you're accuratley DSing multiple freaking LRs in someone's face quantity suddenly doesn't matter as much. lol

Again, that has been taken to an extreme in 6th edition to the point that yes, I would agree that the army is now TOO expensive to be reliably used but that's the fault of the edition not the codex. Literally everyone of your other complaints at this point can be summed up as "I don't like our book becuase it's not 'Crons Greyknights or Space pups" so I guess I'm just not sure what you're wanting out of it. Actually, yeah, let's do that. What DO you want out of it?

I'll start with jump packs that don't cost 15 pts a model for the iconic DC. Maybe some HTH tech that doesn't revolve around being the assaulting party? Maybe some special characters that aren't hideously overcosted?

IG and SW were also bad matchups, but manageable compared to 6th.

You weren't using decent of angels on LRs were you? If so, you're tossed out of the BA club for not reading the rule. DSing LR was only good for getting them killed to mishaps and dropping them into melta range for your opponent.

Once the shock and awe of the BA wore off, IG and SW and even vanilla marines learned how to abuse the low model count and make it far harder than people make it out to be. 5th edition was not a glory time for the BA, they were a contender, nothing more.

Here are some changes I would like to see

DC jump packs down to 3-5 pts per model,

for a chapter tactics- BA FnP saves are always made on a 4+ like back when.
and
all BA chain CC weapons have the rending special quality.

price reduction all around to about the price of C:SM pts/model, and a MAJOR price reduction on sang guard. and I would be quite happy, (also 5-10 pt reduction on jumppacks for priests maybe)

Here are some changes I would like to see

DC jump packs down to 3-5 pts per model,

for a chapter tactics- BA FnP saves are always made on a 4+ like back when.
and
all BA chain CC weapons have the rending special quality.

price reduction all around to about the price of C:SM pts/model, and a MAJOR price reduction on sang guard. and I would be quite happy, (also 5-10 pt reduction on jumppacks for priests maybe)

I haven't thought much about specific point levels but I basically agree with most of this. In fact, I'd actually be happy with a re-pointed version of the exact same book we have now. Maybe add a second cheaper flyer (just don't call it the "Blood Talon" lol) but that's about it. I'm happy with our book, just NOT at the current points levels.

Tycho wrote:

I thought daemons could hang with screamerstar shenanigans.

Right up until SMS and marker lights eliminate the cover saves and/or ignore LOS to Fateweaver and whomever is holding the Grimoire ...

What? Screamerstar will crush Tau. Cover saves are irrelevant, the Grimoire is hidden in the unit, and Fateweaver will be off the table half the time and out of range the other half.

Dante should be EW. Get rid of the lame ass Sanguinor.


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Thud wrote:

Tycho wrote:

I thought daemons could hang with screamerstar shenanigans.

Right up until SMS and marker lights eliminate the cover saves and/or ignore LOS to Fateweaver and whomever is holding the Grimoire ...

What? Screamerstar will crush Tau. Cover saves are irrelevant, the Grimoire is hidden in the unit, and Fateweaver will be off the table half the time and out of range the other half.

That's what I thought, but didn't want to argue it.

Don't get rid of the sang, he is a badass, he just needs a re-work.


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but yes I also agree dante needs EW. if calgar gets it the 1100 yr old master dante should as well :/

Tycho wrote:
Right up until SMS and marker lights eliminate the cover saves and/or ignore LOS to Fateweaver and whomever is holding the Grimoire ...

Its not that easy. The Grimoire holder is usually in the middle of a squad and will LoS the wounds off. Fatey will be spending as much time off the board as possible (since his reroll works when hes not on the board)

 raiden wrote:
Don't get rid of the sang, he is a badass, he just needs a re-work.

Re-work is an understatement.

I took a bunch of rarely seen BA units in a silly hodgepodge army to my local club yesterday, including The Sanguinor, and it was just sad. Really, really sad.

I think BA still have a couple of good builds. The builds will have bad match ups, but hey, it''s an old codex in an edition which doesn't favour MEQ.
Sadly, all of them involve running minimal troops that hide for most of the game (reserves, transports, LOS blocking terrain).

I think the one build that has the most potential is the BA Fear circus. 3x Podded Fear Furioso Librarians, 2x Fear Librarians. When it works, it's broken, lol'ing Riptides of the table turn 1.

Of course, doesn't work vs Fearless opponents. If only GW would get around to FAQ'ing how Iron Arm and Endurance work with Furioso Dreads. In the meantime, there's Telepathy.

Unless, of course, your opponent sets up with enough room to fall back.

One thing that I've found surprises people that only BA can do:

Jump pack units with plasma guns... possibly deep striking!

No other SM army can give their assault marines plasma guns.

It can be very surprising for your enemy especially since BA are rarely used these days so people are unfamiliar with them. Dev Cents will hate you

I also am highly in-favor of deep striking aggressively with BA. As it is this is an army that has the odds stacked against it. Adopting extreme and, as a result, unexpected manoeuvres through large scale DSing can tip the scale tactically. It just means that you'll either win big through the element of surprise or lose big. But if you are likely to lose anyways then why not go for a hail mary?

Deep striking wasn't good for the BA in 5th and probably isn't good now. BA just don't deliver enough firepower to make it effective.

Martel732 wrote:
Deep striking wasn't good for the BA in 5th and probably isn't good now. BA just don't deliver enough firepower to make it effective.

Probably = Didn't try it.

Try it. Use mass plasma. Have multiple units supporting each other. Above all else: go balls deep. Act like a coward using DS and you'll die like a coward.


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The core concept is that you're outclassing the enemy so strongly in one phase of the game, the movement phase, that it will spill over into other parts.

It is the same concept utilized by Tau armies except they do so in the shooting phase.

There are units in the BA book that can be hidden easily enough that are also tough enough to ensure T1 survival (eg. Mephiston).

Again - this is BA. They necessitate a balls-to-the-wall approach to overcome the disadvantaged state of their codex. Play Tau if you want something calmer.

I personally haven't tried it, but I've had it used against me. The sounds of plasma honor guard dying to my generic old ASM is like old 5th ed music to my ears.

BA have model count problems out the wazoo. Fielding a bunch of plasma goobers is not the solution. Too many lists can just accept your damage and then crush you on the subsequent turn.

 raiden wrote:
Here are some changes I would like to see

DC jump packs down to 3-5 pts per model,

for a chapter tactics- BA FnP saves are always made on a 4+ like back when.
and
all BA chain CC weapons have the rending special quality.

price reduction all around to about the price of C:SM pts/model, and a MAJOR price reduction on sang guard. and I would be quite happy, (also 5-10 pt reduction on jumppacks for priests maybe)

Agree with most of this but the rending. 3 st5 rending on pretty much all our assault marines would be pretty broken if we also got a price reduction... then again, shuriken weaponary...


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EW on dante, extra 2w on sanguinor and EITHER a 4++ or ap 2 strike at initiative weapon for mephy. Oh and the option of taking astorath and lemartes without packs...


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Dc tycho actually being able to join the dc would be nice too...

How is HTH rending broken, but the Eldar get to have ranged rending on everything?

Ninjaed I see.

Going out on a limb here: you'd have to have so pimpin HTH tropos for them to even begin to breach the "broken" event horizon in 6th.


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Get rid of Sanguinor. He's stupid and useless.

It'd be broken if you spam it. 40-60 guys with rending and a point reduction. So say 1k points for 60guys (16pts each plus 4 vet sarge upgrades for 10pts) with rending (running naked). Rending would mean they can deal with anything without support. Rending is what makes necron wraiths so fearsome in combat, without it they would be meh, plus you can only get 18 wraiths in a single FOC. We would be able to get 60 in troops, 30 in elites, 30 in fast attack, and 10 in HQ. That would be crazy amount of rending!


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Yeh - Sanguinor is pants. But more wounds would definitely help him out, either that or IC status.

Rending wouldn't make any change in the meta, as marines can already suplex Tau and Eldar in HTH. But they can't get there. It wouldn't do that much to Daemons, either. Marines need more survivability, not new fancy attacks that cost more points but accomplish nothing.

after playing some space wolves... I want instead of the rending, or added to that all ASM squads to have counter-attack ....

Martel732 wrote:
Rending wouldn't make any change in the meta, as marines can already suplex Tau and Eldar in HTH. But they can't get there. It wouldn't do that much to Daemons, either. Marines need more survivability, not new fancy attacks that cost more points but accomplish nothing.

There are more armies than just Eldar, Tau and Deamons. Rending would make marines insane against TEQ, MEQ, MCs, and tanks with a rear av of 11+, hell - they could glance raiders and monoliths to death rather than simply relying on a sarges mbs.
But yes - more survivability is the first port of call not fancy new attacks, which is why I don't agree with rending. Whether you believe it would give little advantage or not, GW would still see it as a big upgrade and fail to drop the points! I agree that 4+ fnp is key, as well as a point reduction. It would also help if BA got +1I on the charge (like we used to with fc). Counter attack to jp models would definitely help too, especially the dc.
So CH BA:
When assaulting all BA recieve +1 Initiative. Furthermore all models equipped with a jp recieve the counter attack USR.
All BA models who are affected by the Feel No Pain USR, whether inbuilt into their rules, or provided by a piece of equipment, recieve a 4+ Feel No Pain save.

TBF I think the above would go a long way to solving the issue and would be a temporary 'fix', if used now.

We already pay extra for the privilage of fast tanks and for the equipment that givea fnp so these have nothing to do with CT as CT are free, so if GW therefore say 'well you have fast tanks and fnp to make up for a lack of CT', I think I will rage quit the game.

It was one of the best Codexes in 5th Ed. It just didn't make the transition into 6th Ed all that well.

It's this edition, not the Codex that is at fault. The BA will get a new Codex soon enough.

By the end of 5th, the Necron, IG, GK, and Space Wolves were all better than BA. Of the armies that actually GOT 5th edition codices, the BA were actually one of the worst. It's just that they were up against a lot of 3rd and 4th codices as well. Now that those are being purged out, we see how poorly written the codex is. Yeah, 6th edition didn't help at all, but the transition to hard core shooting codices with competitively costed Xenos is what really did it.


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Poly Ranger wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Rending wouldn't make any change in the meta, as marines can already suplex Tau and Eldar in HTH. But they can't get there. It wouldn't do that much to Daemons, either. Marines need more survivability, not new fancy attacks that cost more points but accomplish nothing.

There are more armies than just Eldar, Tau and Deamons. Rending would make marines insane against TEQ, MEQ, MCs, and tanks with a rear av of 11+, hell - they could glance raiders and monoliths to death rather than simply relying on a sarges mbs.
But yes - more survivability is the first port of call not fancy new attacks, which is why I don't agree with rending. Whether you believe it would give little advantage or not, GW would still see it as a big upgrade and fail to drop the points! I agree that 4+ fnp is key, as well as a point reduction. It would also help if BA got +1I on the charge (like we used to with fc). Counter attack to jp models would definitely help too, especially the dc.
So CH BA:
When assaulting all BA recieve +1 Initiative. Furthermore all models equipped with a jp recieve the counter attack USR.
All BA models who are affected by the Feel No Pain USR, whether inbuilt into their rules, or provided by a piece of equipment, recieve a 4+ Feel No Pain save.

TBF I think the above would go a long way to solving the issue and would be a temporary 'fix', if used now.

We already pay extra for the privilage of fast tanks and for the equipment that givea fnp so these have nothing to do with CT as CT are free, so if GW therefore say 'well you have fast tanks and fnp to make up for a lack of CT', I think I will rage quit the game.

Maybe there are other codices, but the BA don't look so wretched against them. Not even the new Marines, because they just don't bring the pain like the big three.

I had a lot of fun in a recent game with an assault squad with 2 plasma guns, sgt with a plasma pistol, and a librarian (epistolary) with prescience and forewarning.

The plague marines had a bad day.

I didn't even need to enter H2H.

I also had a tac squad, devs with PC and a Baal pred.

Martel732 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Get rid of Sanguinor. He's stupid and useless.

No chance, he is pretty much my favourite model. Back in 5th I thought he was great, although quite situational as his role is a big mean character killer. I remember the days where he could hand Logan his backside on a silver platter. Not anymore.

Sanguinor has a high pricetag for S5 T4 and buffs for a phase of the game that is not very important.

Martel732 wrote:
Sanguinor has a high pricetag for S5 T4 and buffs for a phase of the game that is not very important.

Tell Chaos Daemons that the assault phase isn't very important. Easy now with those sweeping generalizations.

A significant drop in price, or a serious boost in abilities, could always make the Sanguinor relevant again. I think he needs to be kept. He is one of the coolest characters as far as fluff goes in the dex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I personally haven't tried it, but I've had it used against me. The sounds of plasma honor guard dying to my generic old ASM is like old 5th ed music to my ears.

BA have model count problems out the wazoo. Fielding a bunch of plasma goobers is not the solution. Too many lists can just accept your damage and then crush you on the subsequent turn.

How is trying to make an elite army (low models + solid stats/weapons), which marines (esp. BA) are, less elite by using them with underwhelming weaponry going to help anything?

Every time I've faced Blood Angels I've won. Though they always manage to wreck several of my tanks it's really the Veterans behind them that murder them.

So, Blood Angels aren't too good for rushing Gunlines even if in transports. They'll get there and do damage but they also open themselves up to the angry defenders. I could see Stormraven Spam being a problem if the dice were against me.

Other than that.. they are just marines that suck at shooting. At least to me as an IG player.

Martel732 wrote:
Sanguinor has a high pricetag for S5 T4 and buffs for a phase of the game that is not very important.

In this edition yes, but last edition he was great. Don't forget his 3++ and Eternal Warrior and in last edition also he was ignoring armour saves and stiking at an immense initiative. This edition he is certainly overcosted for what he does, but thats because he is no longer ignoring armour saves and is only AP3. To make him AP2 would require remodelling him with an axe but then he strikes last so loses his intiative advantage.

Martel732 wrote:
By the end of 5th, the Necron, IG, GK, and Space Wolves were all better than BA. Of the armies that actually GOT 5th edition codices, the BA were actually one of the worst. It's just that they were up against a lot of 3rd and 4th codices as well. Now that those are being purged out, we see how poorly written the codex is. Yeah, 6th edition didn't help at all, but the transition to hard core shooting codices with competitively costed Xenos is what really did it.

When BA book came there was lot of whining about how overpowered it was and how gross Mephiston is. Every subsesquent codex then out-competed them...

Well we will probably be the lasf codex this time so prepare for a lot of whining from our opponents

Backfire wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
By the end of 5th, the Necron, IG, GK, and Space Wolves were all better than BA. Of the armies that actually GOT 5th edition codices, the BA were actually one of the worst. It's just that they were up against a lot of 3rd and 4th codices as well. Now that those are being purged out, we see how poorly written the codex is. Yeah, 6th edition didn't help at all, but the transition to hard core shooting codices with competitively costed Xenos is what really did it.

When BA book came there was lot of whining about how overpowered it was and how gross Mephiston is. Every subsesquent codex then out-competed them...

Never heard any whining from SW or IG.


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 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sanguinor has a high pricetag for S5 T4 and buffs for a phase of the game that is not very important.

In this edition yes, but last edition he was great. Don't forget his 3++ and Eternal Warrior and in last edition also he was ignoring armour saves and stiking at an immense initiative. This edition he is certainly overcosted for what he does, but thats because he is no longer ignoring armour saves and is only AP3. To make him AP2 would require remodelling him with an axe but then he strikes last so loses his intiative advantage.

I thought he was very overcosted even in 5th. He dies to boltguns, or even lasguns.

Sanguinor is, and as always been, utter trash.

I don't want him to disappear though, as he's not only one of my favourite models in the game, but also far and away the best paint job I've ever done.

I've had great luck against every Daemon list but Screamer Star. Mephiston is an absolute beast in that matchup.

I agree with everything that has been said about the codex - its the sad, painful truth.

There are very few competitive builds at all for BA, and those that are usually don't work in a TAC environment.

Lucarikx

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Well we will probably be the lasf codex this time so prepare for a lot of whining from our opponents

I doubt this. Every Xeno codex has been better than every marine codex in 6th. BA are a C:SM derivative. If Orks, Nids, and IG are all better than C:SM, BA will be mid-tier at best I think.

Martel732 wrote:
I thought he was very overcosted even in 5th. He dies to boltguns, or even lasguns.

With a 2+ armour save on average it would take 18 Bolter wounds to take him out which isn't taking into account rolls to hit and rolls to wound. Average Meq for this would be (working backwards):

1/6 chance to fail armour save with 3 wounds: 6*3 = 18 Wounds

50% chance for S4 to wound = 18/0.5 = 36 Hits

66% chance to hit = 36/0.66 = 54.5 shots

So in essence you need to shot ~ 55 Bolter shots to kill him. Back in 5th I don't think even 3 Tactical squads could bring that to bear.

Yes, but over a couple turns, it was not too hard. His pricetag automatically reduced the support available. I've never had problems killing the Sanguinor. T4 is just a huge liability.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, but over a couple turns, it was not too hard. His pricetag automatically reduced the support available. I've never had problems killing the Sanguinor. T4 is just a huge liability.

So he lasted a couple of turns of shooting and you're complaining? Anything can be killed if you target a unit for a couple of turns. Mephiston can be killed in one turn of shooting.

The Sanguinor worked out well for me when I used him in 5th. In one combat he handed Logan his back side on a silver platter and also killed his wolf guard in the process. Oh happy days.

You can't kill Mephiston with a couple turns of small arm fire. That's why he was always superior to Sanguinor. Cheaper, and required more specialized weaponry to engage.

Sanguinor was and is too expensive in a list that has always had model count problems.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't kill Mephiston with a couple turns of small arm fire. That's why he was always superior to Sanguinor. Cheaper, and required more specialized weaponry to engage.

The Sanguinor however lasts longer against higher strength and lower ap weapons. On average it takes 18 Lascannons to take out the Sanguinor. It only takes 9 Lascannon shots to take out Mephiston.

As already pointed out, your opponent isn't really going to have 55 Bolter shots just laying around to solely target the Sanguinor. On the other hand 9 Lascannon/Melta/etc shots against Mephy is easily done. Even 12 Plasma shots will take Mephy out. Thats just Sternguard in a drop pod all armed with combi plasmas.

Mephy wasn't superior to the Sanguinor for survivability reasons, it was because Mephy can be S10 and tear Land Raiders apart that meant he was superior. However just because Mephy was superior, this does not mean that the Sanguinor was a bad unit in 5th. He was still better than Dante back in 5th. Although Dante was taken for Sanguinary Guard Troops.

Sanguinor was and is too expensive in a list that has always had model count problems.

Not in 5th, he wasn't.

Sanguinor was and is too expensive in a list that has always had model count problems.

That's the rub right there. He DOES draw too many points away from the rest of your force while not necessarily adding to it on the battlefield like Mephiston does (imo). I would like to see Sanguinor redone to be cheaper and maybe provide more army wide buffs instead of just being yet another beat stick (which we are not hurting for). I think it would make him more useful AND it would fit his fluff a little better.

DSing LR was only good for getting them killed to mishaps and dropping them into melta range for your opponent.

Despite the fact that melta was so common in 5th, yes, I dropped them right up front. Even melta doesn't tend to kill them as easily as some would think and when you're bringing three it can be kind of overwhelming. It's not that the strategy worked every time (it failed in rather hillarious fashion on several occcasions) it's just that it was an unusual and aggressive tactic that other armies didn't necessarily have. The BA are kind of the DE of the Marine books in that way.

Deep striking wasn't good for the BA in 5th and probably isn't good now. BA just don't deliver enough firepower to make it effective.

It was effective provided you weren't throwing units away willy nilly. In 6th though, I would agree. DSing with them now is just asking to have them all killed before they can do anything.

You still sound like you have always hated this book. I'm curious, what do you think BA CAN do (again, I agree that as of now no one is going to be pulling off any miracles - I'm just curious to see if you have any ideas on how they can be used).

For myself, like I mentioned earlier, jump packed DC with a sang priest are a great addition to a Ravenwing unit. I've also allied them to my DA to get a Storm Raven and the BAAL Pred is another unit that compliments RW really nicely imo.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this topic, especially now that's is largely irrelevant. Mephiston is marginal now, and Sanguinor is out right bad.

But I never saw anyone firing lascannons at the Sanguinor, it's always been small arms or autocannons or something like that.

Being better than Dante is not exactly a high bar. And sanguinary guard is another unit that never really has been good, making Dante even worse.


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I never did really super like the 5th ed BA book. Overcosted trap units as far as the eye could see. Razor spam was a very necessary evil against other net lists. Yeah, 4+ FNP was awesome until you ran into the wall of plasma vets and their Leman Russ back up. IG could double out our toughness and throw the AP 2 to ignore FNP. The 5th ed BA book was a bully book that had to hide in razors against formidable lists.

I know this because when other BA tried to bully me, I cut them to ribbons with my more conservative, body count focused BA lists.

As for what BA CAN do, I'd say almost nothing at this point without list tailoring. I mean if I build a list to go against WS spam, it's probably going to have few tools to deal with Tau or CSM or Daemons. The BA were able to mask and hide their overcostedness in 5th, but there's nowhere to hide now. Basically, BA need to know who they are facing without the reverse being true. And, pray for LOS blocking terrain, which is a non-trivial assumption.

Martel732 wrote:
I guess we can agree to disagree on this topic, especially now that's is largely irrelevant. Mephiston is marginal now, and Sanguinor is out right bad.

Agreed. At the moment we don't have a lot going for us.

But I never saw anyone firing lascannons at the Sanguinor, it's always been small arms or autocannons or something like that.

Depends on what your opponent has available. I admit I've not used him the new Tau & Eldar codices have come out, but that is because I have been playing Tau myself and have recently started Eldar.

Being better than Dante is not exactly a high bar. And sanguinary guard is another unit that never really has been good, making Dante even worse.

He was generally used for the ability to not scatter when deep striking. He was mean with a squad of Honour Guard with meltas.

Yeah, Dante+ honor guard would melta one thing super duper dead, and then get shot by plasma/melta in return. Note that one failed melta save kills Dante.

I hope BA don't get a 6th ed codex, and they're one of the first 7th ed codexes

With the two Marine codexes so far, GW don't appear to want to change things too much. BA need :-

1. Assault Marines made to be good in Assault. Or just forget about 'Assault' and give them Bolters and Relentless.
2. Price of cc upgrades dropped. Far too expensive when compared to gun upgrades
3. Price of Plasma/Infernus Pistols and Hand Flamers dropped
4. Mech made significantly cheaper
5. Terminators made significantly cheaper
6. Dreadnoughts made Monstrous Creatures

"I hope BA don't get a 6th ed codex, and they're one of the first 7th ed codexes

With the two Marine codexes so far, GW don't appear to want to change things too much. BA need :-"

1. Assault Marines made to be good in Assault. Or just forget about 'Assault' and give them Bolters and Relentless.

Not likely on either count. ASM have never had bolters; at least, not since 2nd.

2. Price of cc upgrades dropped. Far too expensive when compared to gun upgrades

We know what the price of cc upgrades will be from C:SM. Now BA just have to be able to take them. Because we couldn't in 5th.

3. Price of Plasma/Infernus Pistols and Hand Flamers dropped

Nice, but seems we already know the price of plasma pistols.

4. Mech made significantly cheaper

We'll get C:SM prices + fast surcharge, if we still have that.

5. Terminators made significantly cheaper

We already know the price of terminators.

6. Dreadnoughts made Monstrous Creatures

We already know what dreadnoughts are going to look like.

BA can still have an effective list in 6th, and the first step is C:SM pricing. Then we look at the bells and whistles. It's just likely this edition that all meq lists are likely to be below the Xenos.

Hey Martel, do you think the Fear Circus is viable in a TAC tourny like FoB or WGC?

Lucarikx

Fear circus is really good against the things its good against, but there are too many lists that are straight up fearless for it to be TAC. Or even TMC.

Unfortunately, the bottom line is that the BA are overpaying for units that are the same thing in the DA and C:SM books. The SW are only viable because the grey hunter was criminally undercosted in 5th.

Do you think a Fear Circus would well vs a Tau Gunline?

Lucarikx

 Lucarikx wrote:
Do you think a Fear Circus would well vs a Tau Gunline?

Lucarikx

As a Tau player I would say yes. Basic troops like Fire Warriors and Pathfinders are at most leadership 8 and thats only if you pay for the Shas'ui. All the suits are Leadership 9 with a Shas'vre upgrade, but very little in the Tau book counts as fearless, so most units, especially all the good stuff will at most be testing on LD7 when taking a fear test.

 Lucarikx wrote:
Do you think a Fear Circus would well vs a Tau Gunline?

Lucarikx

This question was not directed at me but I am a Tau player and would like to chime in. Yes a Fear Circus would work very well against Tau Gunline. There is nothing to stop Fear and Leadership is low for base units.

Playing against a Farsight Enclave army is a different style altogether as suits are much better with leadership and rarely have I seen Farsight Enclave lists with Fire Warrirors (The unit that actually has the crap leadership)

BA were awesome in 5th when they were released. I remember hating to play against them. Of course, they were flavor of the month and EVERYONE had them (Not that ANY of them were actually BA models, just other marines).

Your time came to a close when an army equipped entirely with Power Weapons jumped in. Yeah, once the GK codex dropped I didn't see anymore BA lists.

Overall I think you just need to be costed like C:SM to be fair. I'm not sure why they wouldn't update your prices to match the C:SM release. It seems counter-intuitive to just port the book over without making the changes.

I think this bodes ill for the Space Wolf players though to be honest.

Even when brand new, SW and IG were still better than BA. Heck, I lost to Orks quite often in 5th ed.

If you lost to orks quite often in 5th with BA, I think you need to look at your tactics rather than blame the codex Martel.

I think when the next BA codex comes out we need to be given something special to help us in close combat. I think our base assault marines need to better than those in the SM codex. I know that they are when you add on the priests, and also we can have meltas on our assault marines but we need something to buff close combat for them at base level. I'm thinking along the lines of getting extra combat weapons i.e. You can take power weapons or powerfists on 2 guys in a ten man squad and then of course the sargent can get his as well. Being able to take 3 three special combat weapons in our assault marines would be a good start. Also making them more survivable would be a good idea. I reckon we'll end up getting infiltrate abilities like the ravenguard do or something like that.

In whole what I would like to see is:

1) Mephy and Sanguinor becoming AP2. Mephy being a monsterous creature and just giving the Sanguinor an AP2 sword.

2) Sanguinor gaining an extra wound at least and perhaps independent character so he can join squads.

3) If the Sanguinor doesn't get independent chacter then an artifact akin to the eternal shield would be good. A 3++ and Eternal Warrior. This would really help the survivability of squads going up the board as he could tank the shots.

4) A Terminator character. Too much focus on the assault marines last edition. I know that BA are all about jump packs but lets not forget the whole space hulk fluff and our awesome Terminators. Would be great if it was Gideon or Lorenzo as well.

5) Perhaps bring Moriar the Chosen back. Make him awesome with an invulnerable save.

Obviously other things as well like bring the points back into line with SM, but personally I would love to see the above in the next codex..

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
If you lost to orks quite often in 5th with BA, I think you need to look at your tactics rather than blame the codex Martel.

Not true. Pretty sure I could flip armies and beat the BA often enough to make it a concern. By often I mean 40% of the time. This number probably went down after I went to all mech, but I stopped seeing Orks if I remember correctly.

If people knew what they were looking at in 5th, the BA were hardly a juggernaut.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthOvious wrote:
I think when the next BA codex comes out we need to be given something special to help us in close combat. I think our base assault marines need to better than those in the SM codex. I know that they are when you add on the priests, and also we can have meltas on our assault marines but we need something to buff close combat for them at base level. I'm thinking along the lines of getting extra combat weapons i.e. You can take power weapons or powerfists on 2 guys in a ten man squad and then of course the sargent can get his as well. Being able to take 3 three special combat weapons in our assault marines would be a good start. Also making them more survivable would be a good idea. I reckon we'll end up getting infiltrate abilities like the ravenguard do or something like that.

In whole what I would like to see is:

1) Mephy and Sanguinor becoming AP2. Mephy being a monsterous creature and just giving the Sanguinor an AP2 sword.

2) Sanguinor gaining an extra wound at least and perhaps independent character so he can join squads.

3) If the Sanguinor doesn't get independent chacter then an artifact akin to the eternal shield would be good. A 3++ and Eternal Warrior. This would really help the survivability of squads going up the board as he could tank the shots.

4) A Terminator character. Too much focus on the assault marines last edition. I know that BA are all about jump packs but lets not forget the whole space hulk fluff and our awesome Terminators. Would be great if it was Gideon or Lorenzo as well.

5) Perhaps bring Moriar the Chosen back. Make him awesome with an invulnerable save.

Obviously other things as well like bring the points back into line with SM, but personally I would love to see the above in the next codex..

I almost can't conjecture without factoring in what I think GW might actually do. Which, I'm guessing, is not a lot, judging by CSM, DA, and C:SM.

Losing to Orks 40% of the time in 5th is pretty bad, I never had that much of a problem. And I face Orks a lot, though that could be why I don't have much of a problem with them.

I agree that SW and Necrons were and are pretty unpleasant, but they are like that for everyone.

There are some nice things in the new SM codex, just as there were in the DA Codex, as well as some stuff which was meh.

I personally have not found the Eldar or Tau to be as horrible to face as you have, but that might be the meta I play in.

Also, the Sanguinor does have a 3++ already.

 warpspider89 wrote:
One thing that I've found surprises people that only BA can do:

Jump pack units with plasma guns... possibly deep striking!

No other SM army can give their assault marines plasma guns.

- Not true. Chaos Raptors can have plasma guns. Or are we only counting loyalists here?

It can be very surprising for your enemy especially since BA are rarely used these days so people are unfamiliar with them. Dev Cents will hate you

I also am highly in-favor of deep striking aggressively with BA. As it is this is an army that has the odds stacked against it. Adopting extreme and, as a result, unexpected manoeuvres through large scale DSing can tip the scale tactically. It just means that you'll either win big through the element of surprise or lose big. But if you are likely to lose anyways then why not go for a hail mary?

I am not particularly knowledgable about blood angels having only played against them once in this edition (with the old eldar codex) but surely they have some things still going for them?

Wide access to jump packs and fnp can't be bad can it, especially with more reliable deep striking from DOA.

 rohansoldier wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
One thing that I've found surprises people that only BA can do:

Jump pack units with plasma guns... possibly deep striking!

No other SM army can give their assault marines plasma guns.

- Not true. Chaos Raptors can have plasma guns. Or are we only counting loyalists here?

It can be very surprising for your enemy especially since BA are rarely used these days so people are unfamiliar with them. Dev Cents will hate you

I also am highly in-favor of deep striking aggressively with BA. As it is this is an army that has the odds stacked against it. Adopting extreme and, as a result, unexpected manoeuvres through large scale DSing can tip the scale tactically. It just means that you'll either win big through the element of surprise or lose big. But if you are likely to lose anyways then why not go for a hail mary?

I am not particularly knowledgable about blood angels having only played against them once in this edition (with the old eldar codex) but surely they have some things still going for them?

Wide access to jump packs and fnp can't be bad can it, especially with more reliable deep striking from DOA.

Deep striking wasn't good in 5th and got even worse in 6th. At least for assault elements. No, the BA basically have not a thing going from them right now. Even the shiny new marine codex is not really a top tier codex, and it is much better than the BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Losing to Orks 40% of the time in 5th is pretty bad, I never had that much of a problem. And I face Orks a lot, though that could be why I don't have much of a problem with them.

I agree that SW and Necrons were and are pretty unpleasant, but they are like that for everyone.

There are some nice things in the new SM codex, just as there were in the DA Codex, as well as some stuff which was meh.

I personally have not found the Eldar or Tau to be as horrible to face as you have, but that might be the meta I play in.

Also, the Sanguinor does have a 3++ already.

The hidden power claw scheme and powerful Ork counter attacks as well as battlewagon shenanigans were quite potent in 5th. Orks are the real reason I went to razor spam and MSU and fragnoughts in 5th.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Losing to Orks 40% of the time in 5th is pretty bad, I never had that much of a problem. And I face Orks a lot, though that could be why I don't have much of a problem with them.

It depends what you have really. Assault Marines might have a bit of difficulty against Ork Boy Mobz due to the number of attacks involved. If you were able to whittle them down through shooting first then its not a big deal.

I agree that SW and Necrons were and are pretty unpleasant, but they are like that for everyone.

There are some nice things in the new SM codex, just as there were in the DA Codex, as well as some stuff which was meh.

I think the new SM release is better than the DA one. Don't get me wrong, the Rad Grenade Launchers for DA bikes was pretty good but it is now easily overshadowed with the Chapter Master beatstick that you can tool up anyway you want to join any squad you want.

I personally have not found the Eldar or Tau to be as horrible to face as you have, but that might be the meta I play in.

I think its down to your meta personally. I play BA, Tau and just recently started Eldar. I honestly do believe that both Tau and Eldar shadow Blood Angels horribly. Personally I think Tau is worse because its so much easier to make an abusive list with their codex. Eldar can make a list just as good but it requires more thought and their playing style requires a bit more thought behind it. I think the players you are playing against just don't abuse their lists like some people do. Its possible to just write a normal list with Tau and Eldar that Blood Angels won't find too overwhelming to play against.

Also, the Sanguinor does have a 3++ already.

What I was saying is if the Sanguinor doesn't get independent character then I am hoping that we get an artifact for a 3++ and Eternal Warrior that we can give to a captain.

The problem with this suggeastion is that it is a straight rip off from the Space marine codex (Enternal Shield). SO I think it would be better to just give The Sanguinor IC instead.

"It depends what you have really. Assault Marines might have a bit of difficulty against Ork Boy Mobz due to the number of attacks involved. If you were able to whittle them down through shooting first then its not a big deal."

The real thing that changed my mind was the list with 150 shoota boyz, some of whom were in battle wagons. I realized that in razorbacks, I was 100% immune to shoota boyz. Then, I realized it worked really well against SW and IG because I was fast as well.

as a daemon player I've yet to lose to tau, eldar, or taudar. ..

daemon army is so fast, in their face turn one with 4 daemon princes, seekers and screamers.

Well Daemons are ranked in the top three for a reason. Now imagine what your daemons will do to meq lists.

Keeper_of_Secrets wrote:
as a daemon player I've yet to lose to tau, eldar, or taudar. ..

daemon army is so fast, in their face turn one with 4 daemon princes, seekers and screamers.

Well as said, Daemons are one of the top tier lists. They are pretty much the only assault army at the moment of any worth. A good Tau player could beat you if his list contained some certain elements necessary for taking out flying daemons.

This could be really broken or not at all effective, but I'd like to see everything stay the same, but drop the prices and take the Vanguard Vets Heroic Intervention rule (minus the part about not having ICs attached) and make it our "chapter tactic" or just an army wide special rule.

Combined with DOA, Blood Angels would become amazing deep strikers and would actually make it into close combat as intended.

You would still have to take ranged fire support or fliers of your own to crack transports and fight enemy flyer spam, but against any conventional list, it would at least be fun to play, an interesting game and would give you a much better chance at denting or wiping out your opponent

C:SM prices for all the regular marines.

Would love to see the C:SM treatment for Honor Guard given to Sanguinary Guard.

The same for C:SM command squads given to BA honor guards.

Two specials in a five man ASM squad would be nice at 17 pts a piece. 105 for two drop pod meltaguns anyone?

Expanding DoA to include a DAeathwing Assault would be nice as well.


I was having decent success with Drop Pod BA at the beginning of 6th, max out on bodies and take some priests. Till the Tau/Interceptors showed up.

 bocatt wrote:
This could be really broken or not at all effective, but I'd like to see everything stay the same, but drop the prices and take the Vanguard Vets Heroic Intervention rule (minus the part about not having ICs attached) and make it our "chapter tactic" or just an army wide special rule.

Combined with DOA, Blood Angels would become amazing deep strikers and would actually make it into close combat as intended.

You would still have to take ranged fire support or fliers of your own to crack transports and fight enemy flyer spam, but against any conventional list, it would at least be fun to play, an interesting game and would give you a much better chance at denting or wiping out your opponent

I don't think this will come to pass, its too broken to happen. I know that GW have produced some broken units but this would just take the biscuit way too much.

 bocatt wrote:
This could be really broken or not at all effective, but I'd like to see everything stay the same, but drop the prices and take the Vanguard Vets Heroic Intervention rule (minus the part about not having ICs attached) and make it our "chapter tactic" or just an army wide special rule.

Combined with DOA, Blood Angels would become amazing deep strikers and would actually make it into close combat as intended.

You would still have to take ranged fire support or fliers of your own to crack transports and fight enemy flyer spam, but against any conventional list, it would at least be fun to play, an interesting game and would give you a much better chance at denting or wiping out your opponent

So all BAs would take inq with servo skulls and get -2d6 on scater as long as they have jump packs ?

I don't want BA to be broken. But what rules could BA possibly get to even get into 2nd tier? They aren't giving marines a seer council/screamerstar, so BA will never be able to HTH those armies. So we are back to being SW and vanilla marines gimped brothers.

I still like my ideas :3. FnP on a 4+ would save me sooo many troops in my games. rending would be nice for our assault squads. the 4+ FnP helps them get into combat with fewer casualties, the rending helps them take out most things. ofc. I would perhaps like to see the option that crusader squads get of a hidden powerfist instead :3 with another CT equivalent of being fast (extra D6 on runs anyone? +3 to the run roll for jump pack units? OOO ignore terrain tests for jump pack units!) like something along the lines of WS CT,

I still remember my facepounder BA list in 5th. 5 melta sternguard in a pod, a storm raven with Lemartes, 5 DC with power weapons and jump packs and a ginsu-dread in the SR, a DS land raider with termies and a Libby in it, and two 5 man assault squads in pods (maybe it was 1). The sternguard podded in if my opponent had a strong unit on the table to kill, and the ASM pod came in if they didn't. The storm raven, LR and remaining pod came in from reserve. It was points denial until my army called the shots. I rarely lost with it (never, in fact, worst was draws) and won a few tournaments. Felt bad for a kid when ALL my stuff refused to come in and he spent three turns doing nothing except holding one objective and all my stuff arrived at the end of the game and mopped his stuff up, contesting his point (he had nothing to reach mine) as my sterns had already blown up his fast stuff. The game was over in twenty minutes with a victory for me from point denial/overkill on turn 6. It was abusive, and it wasn't how I wanted the game to go, just that nothing came in. Kid was a fantastic general though, usually beating most other players in the shop. Just couldn't compare to that dirty list. And yes, it was filthy. This was pre-Coteaz expecting me, so it had a time frame of awesomeness. Everything that dropped killed things quickly and efficiently. Again, guilty towards him having a boring game. Took second due to a tie against Orks though (would have had a win except lucky 6's against my LR with a missile launcher. That tie kept me from 1st, I had to take second in the tourney. Anyone thinking BA weren't top tier in 5th played poorly. That book WAS busted. Sad to see how it's failed against time.

No, it wasn't busted. That list you describe would have been countered by BA razor spam.

Sterns drop in, do their thing die.

Stormraven shows up, shoots once, dies.

Occupants are now on foot. Then they die.

I'm not sure how you avoided mishaping with the DS LR, but that was also a crap tactic with all the melta running around in 5th.

I army swapped in 5th several times and never lost to BA. They were not that great; only when people panicked. BA model count still sucked and your proposed list has the same achilles heel.

Must be great to argue against it on paper when it worked amazingly in practice.

I mainly argue against it because I ripped most lists like that to pieces. They just didn't work. The reserve rules in 5th were garbage and reserving significant points was a good way to get tabled. Which is what I suspect would have happened to that list a lot in my meta for 5th.

I also argue against it because the hordes of lemmings claiming how great the BA were in 5th. I suspect that many of these players were participating in a good deal of baby seal clubbing.

The BA were demonstrably inferior to 5th ed SW, IG, Necrons, and GK. Of the 5th ed codices released, that puts the BA firmly in the bottom half. The fact that they were better than 3rd ed and 4th ed codices is nothing to brag about.

Oh, and the Stormraven was almost unfieldable in 5th. I also demonstrated this for most of my BA and GK opponents. 200 pts is too much for an AV 12 SKIMMER. It eats every lascannon and goes boom.

What I like about BA (yes i have a BA army) is the uniqueness of them for example...
stormravens WERE unique to BA and GK
baal preadators look and are cool
Death company have been buffed due to new rage rule
lots of unique characters
Land raiders are dedicated transports! (i hope they keep this in the 6th edition codex when it is released in about 1-2 years time...probably...)

I'll have to agree here with Martel on the usability of a Storm Raven in 5th. Of course it could have been our meta, too. On top of everything it had a huge footprint.

We know the jump packs are way too expensive. That will change. We will also lose Heroic Intervention the way it is now. Some of the costs also must come down.

Seeing Codex DA and SM, I don't expect us to reach even upper 2nd tier. This edition just does not cater to melee or vehicle oriented armies.

Going with Naw here. I can't imagine the BA getting anything to separate themselves from the DA/vanilla pack at this point. At least with respect to the power codices.

Martel732 wrote:
Going with Naw here. I can't imagine the BA getting anything to separate themselves from the DA/vanilla pack at this point. At least with respect to the power codices.

This is true, anything we get will not be too out of line with the other marine codices. We will get some unique wargear, etc but we will not get anything completely different. So I don't see us getting 2++ on any of our units. The marine codex can only do it on one model for one turn and I bet BA will not even get that. The suggesions made so far are the most likely suggestions. In terms of Invuls, the best we can hope for is a 3++ on an eternal warrior character which I hope can join squads.

I am also unhappy that in order to accomplish anything, my assault elements have to have a very expensive priest, otherwise they'll end up dead pretty quick. That becomes a problem as I would love to field 3 Fragnaughts in pods

I believe this edition is wasted for BA. We get our crappy update and soon afterwards we get 7th edition which changes the rules again. I can only hope it addresses the survivability of vehicles.

Pessimistic, am I?

No, BA being on the back end of the codex cycle bodes very poorly for the future I think. It's not just BA,though, its power armor lists in general.

Martel732 wrote:
No, BA being on the back end of the codex cycle bodes very poorly for the future I think. It's not just BA,though, its power armor lists in general.

Trouble is, we'll get our codex last this edition, it will turn out to be really good and then they will release 7th ed and we'll be rubbish again. I bet you any money.

If that's even true. I honestly don't see how the BA theme is going to work this edition at all.

 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, BA being on the back end of the codex cycle bodes very poorly for the future I think. It's not just BA,though, its power armor lists in general.

Trouble is, we'll get our codex last this edition, it will turn out to be really good and then they will release 7th ed and we'll be rubbish again. I bet you any money.

no, we will probably get ours before space wolves.

I wouldn't bet on that. We need it a lot more, but that's not really fair to the SW. It's amazing how much better the IG and SW translated to 6th. I may bitch a lot, but that's because I wants things to be fair.

I was unhappy with the new c:sm codex's changes. I would like to have seen the quality of marines come up, not their cost go down. What id like to see for the BAs:

Chapter Tactics
FF needs to be standard. Keep DoA. Heroic intervention for all BAs might be a bit much. Letting Command squads and Sang Guard also have it would I think be enough. So long as BA ICs could benefit from it as well, when they join those units.

HQs
Close combat oriented army's really need big bad ass ICs. For shooty army's a buff-mander is more useful. To that end id like to see master crafted returned as an optional upgrade for ICs. Im not a big fan of the Sanguinor either, and wouldnt be pained to see him go. I second the idea of letting DC Tycho get into a DC unit. Dante and Meph's power weapons may not really need to be changed dramatically from the regular stat line. Just add in shred or fleshbane, etc.

Elites
Sang Priests FNP should be 4+. Instead of FC they should give out Hate. Against csm's it should be upgraded to PE. And make thier personal FNP save 3+.

Terminators should be able to get 2 heavweapons per 5 men. With the two HWs tac termies would actualy be useful again. The sarge should be able to change out to LCs, SS & TH, or SS and relic blade. The SS would let the sarge tank wounds.

Cheaper assault termies. The TH SS upgrade would still cost more but overall a lower price for assault termies. I think they need the price reduction because they cant assault out of reserves anymore and the cost of a LR is huge.

Troops
Tacticals should get the commander trait that gives a unit regular (5+) FNP when within 3" of a objective. They should also get PE against enemy units that are within 3" of an objective. THis would make them good at thier primary task, taking and holding objectives.

Assault Marines should get a new USR I just created called Grenadiers. Grenades were made for assaulting and are important to many aspects of assault. Therefor i think special grenade use would be helpful. This ability allows those units, but not ICs that join the unit, to use double the normal allowance of grenades. They can use up to two krak grenades in hand to hand and 2 MBs for the sarge. When throwing grenades they could also throw two as opposed to the normal one. This would improve their chances against MCs and walkers in hth.

Death Co are adequately priced and deadly as is. Id just say cheaper JPs and weapons. Id say just nocking 5 points off weapons would help, and reducing JPs to 10 would be about right.

Heavy Support
Devastators should get Tank Hunter. Only marines with heavy weapons though.

As for vehicles id say a little cheaper. Keeping them fast is fluffy and unique.

I just hope we get to keep the physic hoods man. Those things are baddass.

 raiden wrote:
I just hope we get to keep the physic hoods man. Those things are baddass.

Why would you think we would lose them? Did C:SM librarians lose them? They are not nearly as badass as they were in 5th.

Psychic hoods do squat against most powers I care about.

Well I completely diened a deamons pink horrors powers and shooting all game long thanks to good ole mephy. So. I think they are rather helpful


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can stop any power (Unless this was changed) that any model passes withing the AoE

That's the old psychic hood. Hoods have a smaller bubble and modify your Deny the Witch roll.

So the BA ones have been changed? Where is it in the BrB?

Its in the FAQ:

Page 46 – Librarians, Psychic Hood.
Ignore this paragraph – refer to the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook.

I really need to print out the FaQs. Heh. Oh well. Didn't do that much in the game XD. As they were out of range half of it

You technically can't legally play the BA without the FAQs on hand for the game.

Anyone seen the Inquisitor codex? Im hearing that their servo skulls can reduce scatter by a D6...for anything. This would mean our assault units don't scatter at all.

Im thinking an allied Inquisitor and 3 assault units. MSU them with plasma, melta, and flamer weapons plus there pistol equivalents. Then DS them right where there needed. The other 5 man units can start on the board to hold objectives, distract enemy fire, and generally be the 50% needed on the table.

Whatch yall thank?

I think it's a cool idea, just be careful that your skulls don't get neutralised before you DS

You are right but servo skulls cannot be deployed in the enemy deployment zone. The key stuff you usually want to precision plasma or melta typically does not move upfield much. I find 1D6 can get me where I want in the backfield.