This is something most of us were hoping for before ANY of the new Marine books came out. It would be nice to have a few USRs for some of the more popular legions.
I'm a fan of customisation, and I think we require some sort of buff to be in line with our Loyalist counterparts. Perhaps new supplements for the Big 4 Legions?
I find myself unable to vote with the options given.
My vote would be 'no'... but not because I think they are good enough (the current codex is ridiculously bland) but simply because supplements will bring about the end of all civilisation as we know it.
I would rather that they receive a Codex update that actually makes them interesting, so we can all forget that the last two codexes ever happened.
I'm wondering if they did something like that and how it would affect cult troops and marks. Like having Emperor's Children Warband Tactics means you can't have Plague Marines or any mark besides Slaanesh.
while I agree, that supplements are well........... a pain, I say that because they come in at 50.00 for not a lot of content and are that same price even if you pick them up in digital form. I do think they are however the future for GW considering the money earning potential for them, while allowing them to pop out codexs at a faster rate and still give them an option for releasing new material after a codex has been released.
As for the supplement I'm not a CSM player at all but I think its a shame that they don't have the options for customization that their loyalist counterparts do ( I want to say I'm really happy GW did what they did with the new C:SM), Im a huge fan of customizable armies. It makes it a lot more fun to play against others when there isn't just one stagnant list they're going to bring because that's all that works.
I don't think this would be terribly difficult to make and implement into the game and I think it would sell well, so a win for everyone in my book.
I would take a LEGION tactics supplement any day. Just give us World Eaters, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Death Guard, 1k Sons, Emperor's Children. Black legion already has theirs.
Given the trends, they would have to release a supplement that switches some units FOC around. Otherwise the bastards won't sell.
The tau supplement is selling for two reasons: Battlesuits are troops and the ability to ally for more riptides/special nodes.
In contrast, while the BL one allows for chosen to be troops, and upgrade one group of termies, as well as different artefacts, it's just not as good atm. While massed chosen are excellent, no one notices that.
Maybe I'm just dumb and don't know what the Legion Supplements would look like in comparison to their Loyalist counterparts, however I feel like they tried to do that with Marks and such. Like the Chaos Allegiances were supposed to be compensatory to the SM tactics.
Lobukia wrote: I would take a LEGION tactics supplement any day. Just give us World Eaters, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Death Guard, 1k Sons, Emperor's Children. Black legion already has theirs.
They should do it just like Forgeworld did. A quick update and that´s all.
No supplement thanks. The Black Legion one is awful. And they are not gonna do an all-legion supplement, mostly because that´s what countless players have been asking for since forever. It would be a major success, but GW feeds on our suffering, not on our wallets.
They shouldn't get stuff. They already have the helldrake and can take up to 4 of them , it is enough . They don't need extra rules to make the army better. Plaguemarines are cheap and resilient , same with oblits etc If chaos players want something different they should ally in some demons .
Fluffwise it also wouldn't make sense , there is no legions anymore , just small bands of marines from different units. Unlike loyalists , who have distinct traits , csm are all the same and those that are different already have their separate cult units.
Makumba wrote: They shouldn't get stuff. They already have the helldrake and can take up to 4 of them , it is enough . They don't need extra rules to make the army better. Plaguemarines are cheap and resilient , same with oblits etc If chaos players want something different they should ally in some demons .
Fluffwise it also wouldn't make sense , there is no legions anymore , just small bands of marines from different units. Unlike loyalists , who have distinct traits , csm are all the same and those that are different already have their separate cult units.
Ahhh, another one of these posts that continues to parrot that information people seem to get wrong.
No Distinct traits hmm? Despite how many following the Codex Astartes to a tee and still getting their own codex? Considering that their "distinct traits" are so minor compared to every single other faction, despite the fact that you don't have an entire 'chapter' or 'warband' on the field, for example.
Despite the Warbands being mostly separate, such as a World Eater Warband, filled with Khorne Daemon Engines, Khornate Warriors with Khorne daemon weapons in blood and daemon forged armor with slaughterfiends and vehicles marked by Khorne. This example would be far greater in scope then any Loyalist Codex, and would certainly beat out something like say, Blood Angels in uniqueness. Because the blood angels have minor differences compared to C:SM, while a World Eater codex would be drastically different then a Thousand Sons codex.
Here's a good quote from CalgarsPimpHand.
This argument is weak, old, and deserves to die a painful death. It's irrelevant at best, and honestly disrespectful toward Chaos Marine players who have been saddled with bland, insipid dexes for many years while loyal chapters are showered with rules and models.
Why? Allow me to rant:
The traitor legions did mostly break up into warbands, to a greater or lesser extent depending on the legion. And the Word Bearers are the most unified of the traitor legions, still operating as a basically intact legion. Congrats, you got that correct. But you know who else also split up their legion organization? All the loyalist legions (minus the Space Wolves). In fact, in many cases, there are fragments of traitor legions still operating in formations as large as or larger than any codex chapter. Take for instance the Iron Warriors, who retain a great degree of cohesion and still nominally operate as Grand Companies, similar in size to loyalist chapters. Or Typhus's Plague Fleet, which rivals the fleet of any individual codex chapter. Even the freakin' Alpha Legion still coordinate among their independent cells scattered across the galaxy.
So while it's true the traitor legions mostly don't operate as unified organizations tens of thousands of marines strong, it's also true that no one does anymore, except possibly the Black Templars. But even the traitors who did scatter still fight as warbands whose sizes easily range from dozens of marines to many hundreds. And those warbands are sometimes comprised mostly, or entirely, of marines from a single traitor legion. Even the most completely shattered legions, like the World Eaters, probably still have some warbands kicking around comprising a few dozen World Eaters and no one else.
Incidentally, we play a game called Warhammer 40,000 where you're not likely to have more than a few dozen models on the table at once. So when my army is a few dozen Night Lords, and yours is a few dozen Blood Angels, why does your army deserve an entire codex, while mine gets a few pages of fluff and not a single rule or special character? Heck, there are only a few hundred Blood Angels left at this point, and they don't even diverge from the Codex Astartes as much as the Black Templars. Why not just roll them into Codex: Space Marines and give them a Chapter Trait? They're basically a warband leftover from the splitting of the loyalist legions after the scouring.
Do you see where I'm going with this? Don't condescendingly tell someone to go read the Horus Heresy books to learn about why their own army doesn't deserve rules when you seem to have a poor grasp on the fluff yourself (and appear to play an army that barely needs its own codex anyway).
Lobukia wrote: I would take a LEGION tactics supplement any day. Just give us World Eaters, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Death Guard, 1k Sons, Emperor's Children. Black legion already has theirs.
Makumba wrote: They shouldn't get stuff. They already have the helldrake and can take up to 4 of them , it is enough . They don't need extra rules to make the army better. Plaguemarines are cheap and resilient , same with oblits etc If chaos players want something different they should ally in some demons .
Fluffwise it also wouldn't make sense , there is no legions anymore , just small bands of marines from different units. Unlike loyalists , who have distinct traits , csm are all the same and those that are different already have their separate cult units.
Okay then ready for this? Oh tau don't deserve anything because of that riptide and those Eldar don't deserve anything because of I dunno the ability to spam the most cost effecient and arguably broken transports that are better than many tanks in the game. Bravo, a codex has a cheap unit in PM, a good choice in Oblits, the helldrake, and a few other good picks and that is it. Also then I say that the SM book shouldn't have gained their traits since they could just ally with pretty much the majority of other factions.
Also it WOULD make sense. Here's the problem with saying everything is a warband, the warband are like chapters. Some of them are very small... others are larger than what chapters are commonly regarded to be. Through all that though, they have diistinctive styles. Just because certain legions fragmented dramatically doesn't mean that they don't still follow the tenents of their original legion. Along with that, look at the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and even Black Legion for large legions that are decently-> phenominally organized and unified through it all and still follow many of their old traditions to this day. Also they are more diverse than all the loyalists that follow the codex to a tee only having a tendency for a few extra guns and the sorts.
Even disregarding the former legions, there are several sects of chaos. The khornate followers, Slaanesh worshipers, Tzeentch tricksters, nurgle fans, worship all the gods, worship none of the gods, and use the gods to your benefit.
Makumba wrote: They shouldn't get stuff. They already have the helldrake and can take up to 4 of them , it is enough . They don't need extra rules to make the army better. Plaguemarines are cheap and resilient , same with oblits etc If chaos players want something different they should ally in some demons .
Fluffwise it also wouldn't make sense , there is no legions anymore , just small bands of marines from different units. Unlike loyalists , who have distinct traits , csm are all the same and those that are different already have their separate cult units.
Lobukia wrote: I would take a LEGION tactics supplement any day. Just give us World Eaters, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Death Guard, 1k Sons, Emperor's Children. Black legion already has theirs.
I'd be fine with a special character tax even.
deleted by nobody at all, there was never a anything here only your imagination
Despite the Warbands being mostly separate, such as a World Eater Warband, filled with Khorne Daemon Engines, Khornate Warriors with Khorne daemon weapons in blood and daemon forged armor with slaughterfiends and vehicles marked by Khorne. This example would be far greater in scope then any Loyalist Codex, and would certainly beat out something like say, Blood Angels in uniqueness. Because the blood angels have minor differences compared to C:SM, while a World Eater codex would be drastically different then a Thousand Sons codex.
I don't know who pimp hand is , but chaos writers say there are no legions anymore . the codex writer say it so , the BL writers say it so , even the codex says they broke up . If the fluff says they are all mixed up , then an avarge is taken out . And then yes you have berzerkers who can be WE and DG who are plague marines , GW sees that they are different and there for gives options to run such units . CSM are all the same there for they get one option , if GW thought that csm for Iron Warriors and Word Bearers are different , they would give options to make it so .Maybe by adding squad leaders like telion , I don't know am not a game designer .
Blood angels on the other hand are different from ultramarines or space wolfs, they have their different weapons and different vehicles , honor guards . Yes , they are codex , but also have the whole cool vampire thing going on with DC and mefiston . This makes them drasticly different from Space Wolfs or Ultramarines . Chaos marines don't have that . Only chaos players seem to not understand that the times of their old 4th ed codex are gone . Besides nothing stops them from painting their models in a different way , in fact am sure it is encouraged .
But the real truth is that chaos players just want more special snow flake rules , more OP stuff like helldrakes and if it is possible more helldrakes.
Despite the Warbands being mostly separate, such as a World Eater Warband, filled with Khorne Daemon Engines, Khornate Warriors with Khorne daemon weapons in blood and daemon forged armor with slaughterfiends and vehicles marked by Khorne. This example would be far greater in scope then any Loyalist Codex, and would certainly beat out something like say, Blood Angels in uniqueness. Because the blood angels have minor differences compared to C:SM, while a World Eater codex would be drastically different then a Thousand Sons codex.
I don't know who pimp hand is , but chaos writers say there are no legions anymore . the codex writer say it so , the BL writers say it so , even the codex says they broke up . If the fluff says they are all mixed up , then an avarge is taken out . And then yes you have berzerkers who can be WE and DG who are plague marines , GW sees that they are different and there for gives options to run such units . CSM are all the same there for they get one option , if GW thought that csm for Iron Warriors and Word Bearers are different , they would give options to make it so .Maybe by adding squad leaders like telion , I don't know am not a game designer .
Blood angels on the other hand are different from ultramarines or space wolfs, they have their different weapons and different vehicles , honor guards . Yes , they are codex , but also have the whole cool vampire thing going on with DC and mefiston . This makes them drasticly different from Space Wolfs or Ultramarines . Chaos marines don't have that . Only chaos players seem to not understand that the times of their old 4th ed codex are gone . Besides nothing stops them from painting their models in a different way , in fact am sure it is encouraged .
But the real truth is that chaos players just want more special snow flake rules , more OP stuff like helldrakes and if it is possible more helldrakes.
Okay then. Please grab all the marine players including space wolves and grey knights and shove them into one codex because they aren't diverse enough to diserve 50 thousand codices and the sorts.
Oh and I don't want that. I want to be able to play my favorite god army without having to remember that by the very nature of even specializing in one god even with almost every model having the opportunity to have the mark of tzeentch, I am cutting off any capability of playing. Also... ANY supplement is just adding special snowflake rules on top of others. GK, SW, BA are all SM+ or ++ and the SM codex is the magical fairy land of special rules. And I gotta ask why did the two xenos races get supplements when they both are arguably more broken and have far better internal balance than chaos. And for all the claims the legions mean nothing... then why does the codex have blurbs for each and every single ancient legion? It's because although some have fractured horridly and others have been able to be warbands that are still closer to their legion status (Iron Warriors are more like chapters, Word Bearers are generally pretty united), it is because certain warbands aren't melting pots. Heck, chaos gods hate eachother and have an arch nemesis (Tzeentch and Nurgle aren't pals)
Also please remember that Tau, Eldar, and IG also have many different regiment styles. Yet are there always options for it? Not quite. Bar just bringing more of THIS unit or THAT unit.... there really isn't a way. Unless you grab a forgeowrld book or the new supplement books. WHat about the Tau farsight? Obviously they are different yet until now they have been in the same codex as all other tau. Eldar? All those different places yet only recently did they make a Eldar book for it.. IG? IG are some of the most diverse when it comes to regiments just because of the planets they are raised on yet they lost doctrines.
---------------------------
But how does BA deserve its own codex when BT don't? Why don't Salamanders or any others get their own? Salamanders have their own relics and due to their nature probably their own vehicles. Finally, themes are worthless. If so, Salamanders also deserve a codex. And what about you know the egyptian Thousand Sons? Or the barbarian World Eaters? or the plague inducers? Or the ear splitting mad men? Or the devout and religious forces of chaos? Or the chaos members that don't even use chaos icons and the sorts? How is it that their relics, unique weapons (and trust me chaos has far more diverse weapons and vehicles) with more varied members some being all warped up and some not even some daemon prince leaders somehow less diverse than some vampire marines deserving their own codex when so many other loyalists don't?
Lobukia wrote: I would take a LEGION tactics supplement any day. Just give us World Eaters, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Death Guard, 1k Sons, Emperor's Children. Black legion already has theirs.
I'd be fine with a special character tax even.
deleted by Alpharius
Whew, fixed that just in time.
Heh, you're alright
That aside, I'd slit ... open a whole sack of cash into GW's money pool to be able to play a CSM army that isn't Mark o' Nurgle day in and out, or can just not rely on the daemonforge stuff (i.e. Heldrakes). I play casual (thank some god), so I don't mind as much that my AL is kinda* gimped, but it's got no flavor to it. If I played Raven Guard (or whatever the loyalist analogue is to the AL), I'd have my own named character, tactics geared toward my play style, and that smug satisfaction knowing MY army is cared about among-st the higher ups, which I seem to see mostly in SM players.
* By kinda, I mean that if I didn't play casual (or just fought IG at all, or Tau, or Eldar, or SM) I'd have more losses to my name then letters.
Well supplements seem kinda cheap. You pay almost as much for the supplement as you do the codex, so why not just write better codices? I mean, why does SM need 5+ books to cover things that are relatively the same? Why would Chaos or Tau or anyone else need supplements? Leave that sort of thing to Forgeworld. Clump all the SM Chapters into one big book, expand the CSM Legions and do the same for other books. Have all the books come pre-cooked and let people go to FW for spices. The stuff in the Farsight Supplement could have easily been added to their main codex.
darkcloak wrote: Well supplements seem kinda cheap. You pay almost as much for the supplement as you do the codex, so why noy just write better codices? I mean, why does SM need 5+ books to cover things that are relatively the same? Why would Chaos or Tau or anyone else need supplements? Leave that sort of thing to Forgeworld. Clump all the SM Chapters into one big book, expand the CSM Legions and do the same for other books. Have all the books come pre-cooked and let people go to FW for spices.
Actually I'll admit I concur with you to some extent. Whilst I wish for supplements, that is primarily because of a hunch that 6th edition will be here longer than other editions if the supplements are succesful enough. Also because I'd be spending way too much on 50k supplements. Salamanders you say? Unique guardsmen ones for those more connected to line guardsman, mech, armoured, and the sorts? The SoB and Inquisitor you say? All of these chaos supplements? Why yes please!
Despite the Warbands being mostly separate, such as a World Eater Warband, filled with Khorne Daemon Engines, Khornate Warriors with Khorne daemon weapons in blood and daemon forged armor with slaughterfiends and vehicles marked by Khorne. This example would be far greater in scope then any Loyalist Codex, and would certainly beat out something like say, Blood Angels in uniqueness. Because the blood angels have minor differences compared to C:SM, while a World Eater codex would be drastically different then a Thousand Sons codex.
I don't know who pimp hand is , but chaos writers say there are no legions anymore . the codex writer say it so , the BL writers say it so , even the codex says they broke up . If the fluff says they are all mixed up , then an avarge is taken out . And then yes you have berzerkers who can be WE and DG who are plague marines , GW sees that they are different and there for gives options to run such units . CSM are all the same there for they get one option , if GW thought that csm for Iron Warriors and Word Bearers are different , they would give options to make it so .Maybe by adding squad leaders like telion , I don't know am not a game designer .
Blood angels on the other hand are different from ultramarines or space wolfs, they have their different weapons and different vehicles , honor guards . Yes , they are codex , but also have the whole cool vampire thing going on with DC and mefiston . This makes them drasticly different from Space Wolfs or Ultramarines . Chaos marines don't have that . Only chaos players seem to not understand that the times of their old 4th ed codex are gone . Besides nothing stops them from painting their models in a different way , in fact am sure it is encouraged .
But the real truth is that chaos players just want more special snow flake rules , more OP stuff like helldrakes and if it is possible more helldrakes.
Despite the Warbands being mostly separate, such as a World Eater Warband, filled with Khorne Daemon Engines, Khornate Warriors with Khorne daemon weapons in blood and daemon forged armor with slaughterfiends and vehicles marked by Khorne. This example would be far greater in scope then any Loyalist Codex, and would certainly beat out something like say, Blood Angels in uniqueness. Because the blood angels have minor differences compared to C:SM, while a World Eater codex would be drastically different then a Thousand Sons codex.
I don't know who pimp hand is , but chaos writers say there are no legions anymore . the codex writer say it so , the BL writers say it so , even the codex says they broke up . If the fluff says they are all mixed up , then an avarge is taken out . And then yes you have berzerkers who can be WE and DG who are plague marines , GW sees that they are different and there for gives options to run such units . CSM are all the same there for they get one option , if GW thought that csm for Iron Warriors and Word Bearers are different , they would give options to make it so .Maybe by adding squad leaders like telion , I don't know am not a game designer .
Blood angels on the other hand are different from ultramarines or space wolfs, they have their different weapons and different vehicles , honor guards . Yes , they are codex , but also have the whole cool vampire thing going on with DC and mefiston . This makes them drasticly different from Space Wolfs or Ultramarines . Chaos marines don't have that . Only chaos players seem to not understand that the times of their old 4th ed codex are gone . Besides nothing stops them from painting their models in a different way , in fact am sure it is encouraged .
But the real truth is that chaos players just want more special snow flake rules , more OP stuff like helldrakes and if it is possible more helldrakes.
Your hatred for heldrakes seems to be getting in the way of your ability to make a reasoned argument or even construct a readable sentence. Paragraph one and paragraph two are essentially completely contradictory.
As a Word Bearer player, I am sick of people saying they are scattered war bands. We are Legio and proud of it! So, after you learn English go read some WB novels. For the record, I don't use drakes and never will. Just because you can't learn to bring some AA, don't lump us all together . We just want a balanced codex that represents our favorite legions. We don't want OP or snowflake status. Is that too much to ask for?
Musashi363 wrote: As a Word Bearer player, I am sick of people saying they are scattered war bands. We are Legio and proud of it! So, after you learn English go read some WB novels. For the record, I don't use drakes and never will. Just because you can't learn to bring some AA, don't lump us all together . We just want a balanced codex that represents our favorite legions. We don't want OP or snowflake status. Is that too much to ask for?
This.
I often use C:SMCT:IH for my Iron Warriors because (imo) it is a better representation of Iron Warriors in general. And it's a shame, because it means I rarely get to use daemon engines. I would love to see a supplement that gave at least the legions* a 'chapter trait'.
_e
*No, they don't fight as legions. But when you see DG Bezerkers, let me know.
Musashi363 wrote: As a Word Bearer player, I am sick of people saying they are scattered war bands. We are Legio and proud of it! So, after you learn English go read some WB novels. For the record, I don't use drakes and never will. Just because you can't learn to bring some AA, don't lump us all together . We just want a balanced codex that represents our favorite legions. We don't want OP or snowflake status. Is that too much to ask for?
This.
I often use C:SMCT:IH for my Iron Warriors because (imo) it is a better representation of Iron Warriors in general. And it's a shame, because it means I rarely get to use daemon engines. I would love to see a supplement that gave at least the legions* a 'chapter trait'.
_e
*No, they don't fight as legions. But when you see DG Bezerkers, let me know.
Oh oh! No better! DG Thousand Sons! Nurgle and Tzeentch are best friends right? (also if memory serves me, don't many iron warriors still work in a kinda sorta great company structure kinda like in a chapter size of CSM?)
Yeah, alot of the IW Great Companies are around chapter sized. C:SMCT:IH works, but having to chose between most units feeling like IW or have IW units is really frustrating.
Codex: Heldrake is just fine, and won't change much regardless of what Legion is released next. It will still be Codex: Heldrake, but with different Wargear. I mean, seriously? A Black Legion army led by someone besides a BL character? C'mon, GW.
I doubt you will see heavy supplement use in Tournaments. If you do, see Codex: Heldrake above. Therefore, I'd say just make your own Legion rules. My group is quite happy with this. I encourage you to beat GW to the punch and determine your own "Legion tactics".
VotLW, in my opinion, is a good mechanic and should be present even in the case of a Legion supplement.
erick99 wrote: Yeah, alot of the IW Great Companies are around chapter sized. C:SMCT:IH works, but having to chose between most units feeling like IW or have IW units is really frustrating.
_e
Wouldn't Imperial Fists be a better fit for Iron Warriors than Iron Hands? Their primarchs had similar battle doctrines and you don't see the Iron Warriors replacing their bodies with machinery while screaming "THE FLESH IS WEAK!"
The IW legion trait would probably be somewhat similar to IF. Tank Busters for Havocs and Daemon Engines. Maybe something else besides bolter drill. Maybe twin link melta weapons as well for bunker busting?
Your hatred for heldrakes seems to be getting in the way of your ability to make a reasoned argument or even construct a readable sentence. Paragraph one and paragraph two are essentially completely contradictory.
How are they contradictory ? GW says there is no legions . The makers of the csm codex before this say they felt that csm were too over the place and streamlined them to be more fluffy and the Kelly codex is based on the 4th ed codex. If GW felt that csm needed extra rules , they would have given them to chaos marines . Ergo when BA or DA get a different codex , then they get it because they are different enough . There is no snowflaking for more OP rules , it is what they deserv . Chaos on the other hand does not need those , because neither the fluff , nor the game balance requires it . And the fact that chaos players want extra rules on top of a 4th Fast Attack slot only shows how whiny they are.
You get a codex with all the cult legions , all the csm , ton of new models and units including the OP helldrake and you want even more rules . If that isn't trying to be a snowflak , then I don't know what is.
Your hatred for heldrakes seems to be getting in the way of your ability to make a reasoned argument or even construct a readable sentence. Paragraph one and paragraph two are essentially completely contradictory.
How are they contradictory ? GW says there is no legions . The makers of the csm codex before this say they felt that csm were too over the place and streamlined them to be more fluffy and the Kelly codex is based on the 4th ed codex. If GW felt that csm needed extra rules , they would have given them to chaos marines . Ergo when BA or DA get a different codex , then they get it because they are different enough . There is no snowflaking for more OP rules , it is what they deserv . Chaos on the other hand does not need those , because neither the fluff , nor the game balance requires it . And the fact that chaos players want extra rules on top of a 4th Fast Attack slot only shows how whiny they are.
You get a codex with all the cult legions , all the csm , ton of new models and units including the OP helldrake and you want even more rules . If that isn't trying to be a snowflak , then I don't know what is.
Actually it's because they felt like continuing to expand, also the only snowflake are the SM who believe they actually deserve a codex still for having minor tactical differences from each other
Not to mention yes there's no legions..Even SM doesn't have legions, though the Word Bearers come close with their unity, along with the Black Legion, considering they've grown even bigger then they were when they were the Sons of Horus. And no they were not streamlined to be more fluffy, they were streamlined because 4th edition had the idea to cut everything and make it bland.
But hey continue to troll, it's quite obvious with the fact you can't have an actual arguement beyond "They can't have more rules because they have OP heldrake" Despite the fact that chaos is pretty low on the rankings (52+) and still falling even with the 'OP rules"
The shattering of the Legions is a fallacy used to justify the Loyalist special treatment and entirely unjustified as an argument against getting representation.
- All of the Legions were split. This includes the Loyalists. If the Imperial Fists penchant for siege warfare has lasted 10,000 years of real time, it is completely reasonable to think that an Iron Warrior might have kept his skills in the wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey warp clock.
- Even the shattered Legions contain 'splinters' of pure warbands. Some of these are the size of a Chapter. The size of a normal 40k game rarely has more than ~60 Marines on the table, of course some of the splinters are going to be capable of reaching army-scales of this size.
- Word Bearers and Iron Warriors arguably still work in Legion formation. The Death Guard are relatively unified and the Alpha Legion communicate across Cells.
- "Yeah but all CSM are pretty much the same by this point"- We have rules to differentiate between the Imperial Fists 3rd and 4th Companies. We will shortly be receiving rules for Clan Raukaan against the normal Iron Hands, and rumours suggest 'Nid Hunters being sufficiently different from Ultramarines to warrant a ruleset. There are 7 individual army profiles in the standard Codex, 3 more spun into separate Codices, and Grey Knights on top of that. Forge World has sent a list with a whole host of Later Foundings, all of which are apparently different enough to warrant unique rules and a special Chapter badge.
There are more differences between an Iron Warrior and an Alpha Legionaire, than there are between Companies of the same Chapter.
(PS- I think most people hate the Heldrake, CSM players included. Because while it exists in it's current state any requests for a remake are laughed off as the dreams of players who clearly only want more power and hate fluff.)
I don't want no bloody Heldrakes! I want chapter tactics for my EC (and other Chaos Legions/Warbands), more fluffy wargear, more fluffy upgrade options, fluffy warlord traits and the like! Seriously, half of the CSM Codex is casual or semi-competitive at best, I feel sorry for the poor Tzeentch chaps.
But the real truth is that chaos players just want more special snow flake rules , more OP stuff like helldrakes and if it is possible more helldrakes.
This "real truth" is an utter lie.
I do not play competitive. I have never fielded a Heldrake (I dislike them) or an Obliterator. I like to field units which background I like. And I am not alone, competitive players are not the majority. If you are getting this impression is because the game is so stupidly broken that the only Chaos players still playing are the ones that would field Heldrakes.
I play Word Bearers and other Legions. I cannot field anything that makes me feel like I am actually playing WB. And we are a legion. You are either a troll or someone who knows nothing about the Chaos background. Not all Legions got broken. The Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors are still a Legion. And there are Death Guard, Emperor´s Children or World Eaters warbands bigger than any loyal chapter. In the Dominion of Fire, Angron commanded 50000 berserkers. What are you talking about?
And we had rules for Legions since Rogue Trader. A supplement in 1988 gave us rules for Black Legion, World Eaters and Emperor´s Children, and I mean full army lists for each one. Army wide rules, an armory of their own, and so on.
And we are getting supplements for companies of Space Marines now. It is getting ridiculous. A company of 100 marines following blindly the Codex Astartes like any other marine gets a supplement and World Eaters do not because they are just small warbands of just 50000 marines?
The real truth here is the answer to this questions: what kind of person enjoys having unfair advantages in a game with plastic toys? How can anyone be happy that Space Marines have such an advantage? How can win be so important to people that they rejoice that the opposing team has no chance?
Lobukia wrote: Wow apparently someone doesn't know their 40k lore
As of our current timeline (caution, info from books' endings follows)
Spoiler:
Word Bearers.... still fight as a Legion, easily in the 10s of thousands under central command
1k Sons, split into two major factions, one under Ahriman Ascendant's command and numbering easily in the thousands.
NightLords, unified under reborn Talos the Soul Hunter and ready to fight their own shadow war on the fringes of the 13th Black Crusade
That's some serious umph still fielding forces that easily exceed chapter strength and consider themselves "legions" in organization.
Maybe Makumba only reads the books that have pictures so he actually doesn't know the 40k lore he's talking about?
Not quite...
Spoiler:
Talos Valcoran is dead. He was never the one to unite the Night Lords - that particular honuor fell to Decimus - the son of Octavia and Septimus - Talos servants. With his geneseed
/mindlesspedantry
I've taken a butcher's at the 3.5th edition CSM Codex and imagine my amazement when I found "the Book of Slaanesh" and similar chapters devoted to other Traitor Legions. The number of special rules and upgrades for each of the Legions is astounding. The current edition feels extremely bland in comparison to that...
No, if I wanted to be like a Space Marine, I would buy the SM codex. Give me something else. Cult terminators, a stripped down landraider I can fit 30 cultists in, something unique to CSM.
Honestly, I'd love to be able to play my CSMs fully fluffy....
Prior to the edition change, this was my general army list:
Typhus
4x Termies with MoN, Land Raider
3x Squads of PM 1 sqaud of 5 bikers, MoN 2 "defilers" (I am using the Plague Hulk model from Forge World to keep the theme)
1 Greater Daemon (using the FW Unclean One)
And while yeah, many people felt/feel that PMs are a strong/.OP unit choice, I was definitely hampered by using Typhus.
A buddy of mine in 5th played a similarly styled list, only he used exclusively Khornate units. Whenever we faced our super fluffy Chaos lists against a "regular" list, it was ugly for the guy using CSM.... What I'd want to see in any sort of CSM expansion is to make characters like Typhus VIABLE options.
erick99 wrote: Yeah, alot of the IW Great Companies are around chapter sized. C:SMCT:IH works, but having to chose between most units feeling like IW or have IW units is really frustrating.
_e
Wouldn't Imperial Fists be a better fit for Iron Warriors than Iron Hands? Their primarchs had similar battle doctrines and you don't see the Iron Warriors replacing their bodies with machinery while screaming "THE FLESH IS WEAK!"
The IW legion trait would probably be somewhat similar to IF. Tank Busters for Havocs and Daemon Engines. Maybe something else besides bolter drill. Maybe twin link melta weapons as well for bunker busting?
In some ways, yes. IW do tend to chop of any mutated limbs the gods 'gift' them, so the bionics bit works, and getting IWND on vehicles is as close to daemon engines as I can get in C:SM. Ideally [imo] an IW trait would be something like Tank Hunter Havocs and 6+ FNP guys, or something like that.
Maybe Makumba only reads the books that have pictures so he actually doesn't know the 40k lore he's talking about?
Kelly said there is chaos legions. Gav Thorpe said there are no chaos legions . Dembowski said there are no legion anymore . 2 codex designers that wrote fluff for them and one of the writers for BL tell that legions don't exist anymore . And as pictures goes , well the WD kind of a does have many as do the codici , so you are right there. I take my fluff from books with pictures.
BlackArmour wrote: After seeing the new C:SM book and the variety it allows in choosing chapter tactics and allowing you to build your own army it got me thinking.
Would you be in favor of CSM getting a codex supplement that would give them chapter tactics and more freedom to design their army with personality?
Yes! I'm just starting out (eventually going to ship in those painting supplies), but the whole reason why I bought the Space Marine codex was for the Chapter Tactics that actually suit Night Lords more than their own codex currently. It just seems stupid that a Chaos Space Marine Legion is better represented by loyalist Raven Guard rules than their own faction's rules because GW barely even touched upon them. Although I'd likely be mad that, while an awesome complete CSM supplement was released, I'd have to pay more money for it.
Hopefully with the next edition, the traitor Legions from the HH (besides BL) will get a little love from GW and get their own supplements, or one complete one sold together.
Your hatred for heldrakes seems to be getting in the way of your ability to make a reasoned argument or even construct a readable sentence. Paragraph one and paragraph two are essentially completely contradictory.
How are they contradictory ? GW says there is no legions . The makers of the csm codex before this say they felt that csm were too over the place and streamlined them to be more fluffy and the Kelly codex is based on the 4th ed codex. If GW felt that csm needed extra rules , they would have given them to chaos marines . Ergo when BA or DA get a different codex , then they get it because they are different enough . There is no snowflaking for more OP rules , it is what they deserv . Chaos on the other hand does not need those , because neither the fluff , nor the game balance requires it . And the fact that chaos players want extra rules on top of a 4th Fast Attack slot only shows how whiny they are.
You get a codex with all the cult legions , all the csm , ton of new models and units including the OP helldrake and you want even more rules . If that isn't trying to be a snowflak , then I don't know what is.
Its contradictory because you incorrectly state Chaos has no legions (they do, no idea where you get this idea from). You say that these differences don't warrant separate rules within the same codex, then you go on to state that because Blood Angels are red and sometimes a handful get really angry they deserve an entirely separate codex. Also if Chaos players should be happy that they're allowed different colours and the same rules, then why shouldn't Loyalists be happy with the same?
As for the "chaos has no legions" thing that you keep throwing around. The lastest Black Legion supplement hints at that Legion alone being as numerous as the thousand Loyal Chapters combined.
Your hatred for heldrakes seems to be getting in the way of your ability to make a reasoned argument or even construct a readable sentence. Paragraph one and paragraph two are essentially completely contradictory.
How are they contradictory ? GW says there is no legions . The makers of the csm codex before this say they felt that csm were too over the place and streamlined them to be more fluffy and the Kelly codex is based on the 4th ed codex. If GW felt that csm needed extra rules , they would have given them to chaos marines . Ergo when BA or DA get a different codex , then they get it because they are different enough . There is no snowflaking for more OP rules , it is what they deserv . Chaos on the other hand does not need those , because neither the fluff , nor the game balance requires it . And the fact that chaos players want extra rules on top of a 4th Fast Attack slot only shows how whiny they are.
You get a codex with all the cult legions , all the csm , ton of new models and units including the OP helldrake and you want even more rules . If that isn't trying to be a snowflak , then I don't know what is.
Its contradictory because you incorrectly state Chaos has no legions (they do, no idea where you get this idea from). You say that these differences don't warrant separate rules within the same codex, then you go on to state that because Blood Angels are red and sometimes a handful get really angry they deserve an entirely separate codex. Also if Chaos players should be happy that they're allowed different colours and the same rules, then why shouldn't Loyalists be happy with the same?
As for the "chaos has no legions" thing that you keep throwing around. The lastest Black Legion supplement hints at that Legion alone being as numerous as the thousand Loyal Chapters combined.
Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes Ohh, and because they are all the same, even though they have a "handful" that smell really bad, and a "handful" that also get really angry and chop things up (ok, well they never really calm down), and you have a "handful" who are actually just hollow suits of armor with a consciousness, ohh and you have a handful that are completely fething deaf and LOOVE some LOUD NOISES.... none of them are special enough to get their own book
Yeah... Sorry, GW, but thats just fething bonkers... Chaos not unique enough, smh
Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes
Well considering that most csm are renegades from post heresy chapters , then yeah most of those have codex astartes breed in to them . They may not be doing the whole no fear thing , but on a tactical and strategic level they fight like ultramarines.
Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes
Well considering that most csm are renegades from post heresy chapters , then yeah most of those have codex astartes breed in to them . They may not be doing the whole no fear thing , but on a tactical and strategic level they fight like ultramarines.
Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes
Well considering that most csm are renegades from post heresy chapters , then yeah most of those have codex astartes breed in to them . They may not be doing the whole no fear thing , but on a tactical and strategic level they fight like ultramarines.
Oh? So if I open up my codex all of my models will have AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR? They'll also have thunderhammers and the sorts? OOOO! Are they all in warbands of 1000 that try to balance all the units out and never touch chaos daemon artefacts due to their randomness?
Wait, what? Never heard about them. Like, totally.
Is this a pun?
Yes.
Makumba wrote:
Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes
Well considering that most csm are renegades from post heresy chapters , then yeah most of those have codex astartes breed in to them . They may not be doing the whole no fear thing , but on a tactical and strategic level they fight like ultramarines.
Okay, so we have the Legion-sized Red Corsairs and about 50 (not 100% sure about this) independent Renegade Chapters, which would be roughly 150,000 Renegade Marines. Now, there are 9 Traitor Legions; their numbers were varied during the HH and most likely changed a lot during the following 10k years, but I think it's safe to assume that there are about 800,000 Traitor Legion CSM (Black Legion is around the size of an original Legion, and Daemon Primarch Angron led 50,000 Berzerkers not that long ago, so this is a likely estimate). So, you're wrong, we aren't "Smurfs with spikes".
(Black Legion is around the size of an original Legion)
Actually the Supplement for them said they have actually grown even larger then that with the inclusion of all the renegade marines joining up with the black legion, so it's numbers are far, far larger.
Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes
Well considering that most csm are renegades from post heresy chapters , then yeah most of those have codex astartes breed in to them . They may not be doing the whole no fear thing , but on a tactical and strategic level they fight like ultramarines.
Not sure if trolling.
Haha, I think I did pretty good in there, since he quoted me And I really do think that some of the arguments against the CSM getting more varied units/specialized books are ridiculous. We have what, 30 years or so of WH history to go off of, and in basically all of them we have that most of the original traitor legions are at, near, or above their original strengths from the HH period. Obviously, many of us know that some of the legions had some falling out and are spread to the 8 winds of Chaos, but that doesnt change that they are still a legion, and if something truly big enough came up, and they had a daemon primarch, they'd band together again.
Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes
Well considering that most csm are renegades from post heresy chapters , then yeah most of those have codex astartes breed in to them . They may not be doing the whole no fear thing , but on a tactical and strategic level they fight like ultramarines.
Not sure if trolling.
Haha, I think I did pretty good in there, since he quoted me And I really do think that some of the arguments against the CSM getting more varied units/specialized books are ridiculous. We have what, 30 years or so of WH history to go off of, and in basically all of them we have that most of the original traitor legions are at, near, or above their original strengths from the HH period. Obviously, many of us know that some of the legions had some falling out and are spread to the 8 winds of Chaos, but that doesnt change that they are still a legion, and if something truly big enough came up, and they had a daemon primarch, they'd band together again.
Not to mention that most games are warband sized anyways. I doubt we'd see an entire chapter on the field, let alone a legion, and even then people bring unfluffy amounts of vehicles and such too.
Because Calgars, Kharn, and Abbadon in every minor skirmish am I right!
BlackArmour wrote: After seeing the new C:SM book and the variety it allows in choosing chapter tactics and allowing you to build your own army it got me thinking.
Would you be in favor of CSM getting a codex supplement that would give them chapter tactics and more freedom to design their army with personality?
I wouldn't just be in favour of getting this supplement, I would even be willing to sacrifice my local GW store staff member to get it!
Makumba wrote: Blood angels on the other hand are different from ultramarines or space wolfs, they have their different weapons and different vehicles , honor guards . Yes , they are codex , but also have the whole cool vampire thing going on with DC and mefiston . This makes them drasticly different from Space Wolfs or Ultramarines . Chaos marines don't have that . Only chaos players seem to not understand that the times of their old 4th ed codex are gone . Besides nothing stops them from painting their models in a different way , in fact am sure it is encouraged .
But the real truth is that chaos players just want more special snow flake rules , more OP stuff like helldrakes and if it is possible more helldrakes.
So Blood angels deserve a full codex themselves because of the whole "cool vampire thing"?? Really? You could easily cover Blood angels exactly the same way as Black Templars in the base C:SM with part of their chapter tactics being a "death company" trait that can be applied to a given squad, or dreadnought and the tactics that let them choose assault marines as troops. Sanguinary guard are just prettified vanguard vets and so on. They are not drastically different from other codex chapters. They just have a curse that doesn't need a full rulebook to realize on the table top.
Meanwhile due to dedication to a given chaos power followers of nurgle are drastically different than followers of tzeentch, slaanesh or khorne, but those different chaos options all exist in a single book with little differentiation. Given the way black templars were effectively entered into the C:SM and pretty easily at that, all the other chapters could fit in as well with minor tweaks. Your argument supporintg a blood angels codex uses logic that would apply equally towards giving any given chaos force its own book too. With chapter tactics in the C:SM all of the "different" chapters can easily be incorporated into a single volume with not any space marine chapter needing its own book, except for grey knights.
Of course I already find the CSM book readily adaptable. We have marks of chaos, and plenty of interesting units that can be used to create a chaos "counts as" warband that uses the rules for marks and the various units, but not the fluff for them...
insaniak wrote: I find myself unable to vote with the options given.
My vote would be 'no'... but not because I think they are good enough (the current codex is ridiculously bland) but simply because supplements will bring about the end of all civilisation as we know it.
I would rather that they receive a Codex update that actually makes them interesting, so we can all forget that the last two codexes ever happened.
insaniak wrote: I find myself unable to vote with the options given.
My vote would be 'no'... but not because I think they are good enough (the current codex is ridiculously bland) but simply because supplements will bring about the end of all civilisation as we know it.
I would rather that they receive a Codex update that actually makes them interesting, so we can all forget that the last two codexes ever happened.
Iron Warriors:
-Tank Hunters for Havocs and Daemon Engines, twin linked melta weapons. Can take one Warpsmith that doesn't take up an HQ slot if you take a Lord.
Word Bearers:
-Zealot rule from Dark Apostle extended to 12" of effect from Dark Apostle(s). If an allied detachment from Codex: Chaos Daemons is used, they may deep strike within 6" of the Dark Apostle and not scatter. Units that ascend to Daemon Prince by the Champion of Chaos table keep all wargear and upgrades.
Night Lords:
-Fear USR to all non-vehicle units. Raptors and Warptalons may assault after deep striking but may not shoot the turn they do so. If Lord has a jump pack, one unit of Raptors may be taken as a troop choice.
Black Legion:
-Crusader and Preferred enemy (all Imperium Loyalist Factions) USR to all non-vehicle units. Units in Terminator armor may make sweeping advances including Abaddon. If Lord has Terminator armor, one unit of Terminators may be taken as a troop choice. Warlord re-rolls all failed to hit rolls in challenges against Imperium factions every turn.
Emperor's Children:
- Warp Scream special rule for all non-vehicle units. Whenever Assaulted by enemy units, the enemy's WS is reduced by 1 in that Assault Phase.
- Combat Drugs special rule for all Characters. At the beginning of each Assault phase, the Character may choose to use Combat Drugs and roll on a table. 1 means a self-inflicted Wound with no armour save allowed, but other options grant +1 WS, +1 Strength, +1 Attack and the like until the next phase.
Got those from an old CSM Codex, back when each Traitor Legion had some actual custom stuff.
World Eaters: free and compulsory Mark of Khorne for anyone able to get it. The unit gain Fearless. No Sorcerers (so no Tally Keepers from Rogue Trader).
Death Guard: free and compulsory Mark of Nurgle for anyone able to get it. The unit gain Fearless. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.
Emperor´s Children: free and compulsory Mark of Slaanesh for anyone able to get it. The unit gain Fearless. All units with WS Run an additional D3 (this will normally be 1D6+3). Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.
Thousand Sons: free and compulsory Mark of Tzeentch for all units, including vehicles. All units re-roll Ld tests when trying to use a psychic power. No other marks allowed. Sorcerers and Aspiring Sorcerers get access to Divination. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.
Night Lords: all units gain Fear. All infantry units gain Stealth. All bikes and jump infantry units get Hit and Run. No marks allowed. Special Rule: Honourless Murderers. Sorcerers get access to Divination. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.
Word Bearers: all infantry units gain Zealot. All vehicles able to get a Dirge Caster get it for free. No marks allowed. If your main force is a Word Bearers force, friendly units with the Daemon rule may re-roll their scatter dice when deep-striking. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.
Iron Warriors: Stubborn and Furious Charge for all units with WS. Havocs gain Tank Hunter. You can get up to 10 models in a Mutilator unit. No marks allowed. All vehicles gain an additional HP. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.
Alpha Legion: all infantry and jump infantry units gain Infiltration and And They Shall Know No Fear. No marks allowed. No units with the rule Daemon allowed. Killing their special characters do not give Victory Points in any case. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.
Black Legion: take whatever you want. Veteran of the Long War for everyone who can take it, for free. Battle brothers with any other Legion. All Chosen may select one of the following rules: Split Fire, Infiltration, Tank Hunter.
Renegades: take whatever you want as long as it hasn´t the Daemon rule. This represents a Chapter recently gone rogue. Battle brothers with Space Marines, to represent the fact that they still use the same gear. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.
Honourless Murderers:
Spoiler:
the leaders of the Night Lords know no honour, and will break without hesitation any rules of engagement if it favours them. At the beginning of the assault phase, if a character of the Night Lords is fighting a duel, the player can allocate all the attacks of the unit on the enemy character. Once the turn is finished, all challenges end, and the players cannot issue or accept any challenge for the rest of the game.
Additional changes:
1: Daemon Princes MAY take a mark. It is not compulsory.
2: A Heldrake can use a template weapon only if it is Hovering.
A Legion can ally with other Legion. Unless specified otherwise, they are Allies of Convenience.
Wilytank wrote: I'm still wondering about the chapters who turned traitor. What trait would they get? For instance, what would Red Corsairs get?
Of course I already find the CSM book readily adaptable. We have marks of chaos, and plenty of interesting units that can be used to create a chaos "counts as" warband that uses the rules for marks and the various units, but not the fluff for them...
Skriker
Just grabbing this bit cause it's aggravating to me. Black Legion, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, and Death Guard can be fielded full to fluff (with varying degrees of success but not the point). Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion all kinda suffer though. I mean, yes you can load up on Possessed Marines and Dark Apostles to get that Word Bearer feeling, max out your Raptor/Warp Talon quotient for NL's, total Daemon-Engine (Helbrutes, Heldrakes, and Forgefiends) with Warp Smiths for IW,... And I guess max squads of Cultists for AL?
Main issue is the marks. If you're playing to fluff, the above four armies are less marked than the dedicated ones (BL too to some degree, and WB are likely to just have all the marks in diff squads). Marks are the main way to give extra "oomph" to a given squad, and the only way to unlock some Icons (i.e. FnP(5+), re-roll charges, and those two other ones no one touches). To play more fluff-focused AL, all I can manage is Icons of Vengence for Fearless (good thing cause I get no cult troops) and VotLW for that bump to Ld. That's the main reason I want supplements; so that (ideally) I can run AL like they aught to be; either loaded down with well trained (but still cheap) cultists, or popping out of the woodwork cause everything has Infiltrate. Hell, I'd love a Mark of Chaos Undivided that gave ATSKNF, sign me up!
Sons of Malice- No Marks of Chaos or Cult Troops or Daemon troops, Allies of Convenience with C:SM and other Legions, Hatred USR Daemons, one HQ choice may be upgraded to a "Champion of Malice" for 80pts
Champion of Malice- Gains +1 to WS,W,T,S,I,LD Loses all equipment except for the Armor of Malice and Bound Blade, may not join any unit or take any transport, if within 6" of any unit with the Daemon USR the Champion must attempt to assault.
Armor of Malice- Gives the USR of Fear as well as 3+ armor save, a 4++ and a 3++ against any attacks done by units with the Daemon USR
Bound Blade- AP2, Bound Daemon Weapon
Bound Daemon Weapon
The tortuted souls of a dozen daemons are contained within this blade, as such roll two d6 when determining attacks, if either dice rolls a 1 the Champion takes d3 wounds with no armor save allowed
For those saying that , its been written that CSM are now just small war-bands and can't therefore have tactics etc. what if....... and I'm just spit balling here , GW does the UN-thinkable and semi advances the story line and claims something like there is a "new mysterious force/leader/etc, banding warbands together and these new war bands are now fighting with such and such tactics.
I seriously have to think something like that would sell and sell WELL. Its also perfect for a supplement cause you end up with a couple pages of rules and TON of fluff ( see Farsight enclaves).
OR just follow any of the ideas above, you don't have to give new models again see Farsight enclaves.
also if your codex hasnt been updated then yes Helldrakes are a pain but most CSM players know that spamming them isnt going to win them much in any tournament not going to go over why but yea not affective as it was when the codex came out.
GW never advances the story line . They haven't done it for years , if not decades , And from what I have been told they even removed the newest fluff . Older gamers showed me old White Dwarfs where cadia is taken by chaos and 13th black crusade happened . In 5th ed ,when I started to play , the 13th haven't even started.
also if your codex hasnt been updated then yes Helldrakes are a pain but most CSM players know that spamming them isnt going to win them much in any tournament not going to go over why but yea not affective as it was when the codex came oout
but they sure like to play with 2-3 in non tournament games too. There are 4 demon players and 3 chaos players here , no one runs army without helldrakes and all chaos marine players take 2 or 3 .
I don't have a single Heldrake in my army and I don't plan on changing that.
I'd love to be able to field an army that would be both competitive and fluffy. Well, that can be rather easily done with Death Guard and Nurgle stuff, but what about the rest? Still, my army is using Noise Marines as Troops, so it shouldn't be that bad (still building it), but a simple rule overhaul or slight cost reduction would be welcome anyway.
Makumba wrote: GW never advances the story line . They haven't done it for years , if not decades , And from what I have been told they even removed the newest fluff . Older gamers showed me old White Dwarfs where cadia is taken by chaos and 13th black crusade happened . In 5th ed ,when I started to play , the 13th haven't even started.
also if your codex hasnt been updated then yes Helldrakes are a pain but most CSM players know that spamming them isnt going to win them much in any tournament not going to go over why but yea not affective as it was when the codex came oout
but they sure like to play with 2-3 in non tournament games too. There are 4 demon players and 3 chaos players here , no one runs army without helldrakes and all chaos marine players take 2 or 3 .
Is your local meta competitive? Are they not? ALong with that, this argument could be easily used for IG, Daemons, Tau, Eldar, and Necrons. Certain places, they flood the lands. In other places, I placem y one heldrake into a glass case to never be used again as I feel dirty using it after only one game. And then I grab out my llovely berzerkers and pray to the emperor they reach cc (and then I quickly glance to my TS a single tear following down as I weep for my favorite legion).
Alpha Legion: all infantry and jump infantry units gain Infiltration and And They Shall Know No Fear. No marks allowed. No units with the rule Daemon allowed. Killing their special characters do not give Victory Points in any case. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.
changes:
1: Daemon Princes MAY take a mark. It is not compulsory.
2: A Heldrake can use a template weapon only if it is Hovering.
A Legion can ally with other Legion. Unless specified otherwise, they are Allies of Convenience.
Okay, while I understand and like the gist, I have but a few questions.
First:
Alpha Legion. While I like the Infiltration, I am hesitant about the ATSKNF, I know that they are/not secretly loyal to the Emperor, but then when you take the marks and Daemon SR away, forgive me, but this just sounds like Infiltrating SM.... And while I like the SR about the HQ's, there would inevitably be "OMG THAT IS SO OP! HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO WIN WITH MY 3 RIPTIDES WITHOUT GETTING WARLORD!?!?" type screams from the idiot non-CSM players. I like the idea on a roll of a 3+ or 2+ or something this HQ takes the place of a Character or other HQ within the army - hence the decoy theme of AL.
Second:
DP: I know where you're coming from, but this just doesn't make sense. A CSM kills 1000's of enemies, and then gets gifted the power of the Dark God's by none of them? Maybe you could make it that the Marks are free. Therefore they aren't AS MUCH of a point sink they are already.
SECOND:
6th Ed armies all have an OP unit that is dead-killy. Riptide, Wraith builds (Crons and Eldar), Grav-Bikes etc. Why would we nerf our special unit. Plus the idea of Heldrake >cough< dragon >cough< breathing on the enemy as it swoops past makes sense. While I agree it is OP, we need a little something to scare those MEQ, cover-cowering wretches that we are seeing so much of in 6th ed competitive lists. Lets remember that it isn't all-killing death machine and with all the Skyfire being brought in it doesn't need nerfs. It is a first priority target anyways. Just Saying.
Third:
Plus I think that the CSM should be Battle-brothers if there was this Chapter tactics.
Personally I think the HH/original legions should be getting the supplements and the Renegades get a separate one that perhaps have Chapter Tactics. But then can you imagine when we get to 7th Ed, CSM get an update, and all of a sudden there is a whole new need to update all those what 10 Supplements!? Never going to happen - too much money and too much effort. Gee-dub ain't gonna do it.
Alpha Legion: all infantry and jump infantry units gain Infiltration and And They Shall Know No Fear. No marks allowed. No units with the rule Daemon allowed. Killing their special characters do not give Victory Points in any case. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.
changes:
1: Daemon Princes MAY take a mark. It is not compulsory.
2: A Heldrake can use a template weapon only if it is Hovering.
A Legion can ally with other Legion. Unless specified otherwise, they are Allies of Convenience.
Okay, while I understand and like the gist, I have but a few questions.
First:
Alpha Legion. While I like the Infiltration, I am hesitant about the ATSKNF, I know that they are/not secretly loyal to the Emperor, but then when you take the marks and Daemon SR away, forgive me, but this just sounds like Infiltrating SM.... And while I like the SR about the HQ's, there would inevitably be "OMG THAT IS SO OP! HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO WIN WITH MY 3 RIPTIDES WITHOUT GETTING WARLORD!?!?" type screams from the idiot non-CSM players. I like the idea on a roll of a 3+ or 2+ or something this HQ takes the place of a Character or other HQ within the army - hence the decoy theme of AL.
1: ATSKNF. Most players that play Alpha Legion usually emphasize the "they look like loyalist" aspect of the Legion. This rules would turn the army into something close to a loyal chapter, making the separation between the Codexes less clear. This is intentional. On a second thought, I would change the ATSKNF rule for a special rule (let´s call it "For the Emperor!") that more or less do the same, thus "playing" with the "which side are they fighting for" aspect of the Alphas. Any player more interested in Daemons/marks can always play Renegades (the jack of all trades option) or use allies.
2: killing characters not giving VPs.
2.1: I was trying to balance it out. Point by point, and with ATSKNF making it clearer, they are still not at the same level that a loyal Chapter. Changing the Victory Conditions opens many tactical possibilities, and provides a distinctive feeling to the army. From a balance point of view, another option I thought of was some special rule for the cultists (Operatives).
2.2: Through the use of decoys is referenced in the background, I am not sure it is exactly the "theme of AL". I don´t think it is correct to state that the Alphas hide their leaders, I think the point is that they don´t have leaders, or that they do not need them. Cutting the head of the Hydra is of no consecuence not because you cut the wrong head, but because all the heads are the same, and every one of them can keep on the fight. Killing the leader means nothing. Remember that Alphas value independent thought, to the point that human Operatives and recently promoted soldiers can participate in the making of their strategies.
Second:
DP: I know where you're coming from, but this just doesn't make sense. A CSM kills 1000's of enemies, and then gets gifted the power of the Dark God's by none of them? Maybe you could make it that the Marks are free. Therefore they aren't AS MUCH of a point sink they are already.
It made sense right until this Codex. Chaos was quite a crowded place before Kelly. Independent Daemons, Minor Chaos Gods, Malal... For me, the worst part of this Codex is not the lack of competitive options, is the loss of an important part of the setting: Chaos Undivided, a completely valid option until 2012. There are many examples in the background of undivided Daemon Princes, with Lorgar and Perturabo being the most famous. What makes no sense is to force all Chaos followers to select a mark when five out of nine Legions are undivided.
SECOND:
6th Ed armies all have an OP unit that is dead-killy. Riptide, Wraith builds (Crons and Eldar), Grav-Bikes etc. Why would we nerf our special unit. Plus the idea of Heldrake >cough< dragon >cough< breathing on the enemy as it swoops past makes sense. While I agree it is OP, we need a little something to scare those MEQ, cover-cowering wretches that we are seeing so much of in 6th ed competitive lists. Lets remember that it isn't all-killing death machine and with all the Skyfire being brought in it doesn't need nerfs. It is a first priority target anyways. Just Saying.
Balance. It is an unbalanced unit, and the main problem people have with playing with Chaos players. I don´t want a unfair game, even if the unfairness is in my favor. Some other armies may have other broken units too, but the solution is not to keep things that way, but to fix things up. Two mistakes does not make one right.
The goal here is not to create more powerful armies, but to create "fluffy" armies that can compete with other armies.
Third:
Plus I think that the CSM should be Battle-brothers if there was this Chapter tactics.
I don´t see why. Most of them hate each other with a passion. DG and Thousand Sons, WE and Emperor´s Children, Iron Warriors and Emperor´s Children, (any Legion with Emperor´s Children, actually) should be Desperate Allies.
They are not allies. They wage a constant war against each other in the Eye of Terror. When they are join a crusade, they leave all differences behind, but then again that is what the Black Legion is: a way to depict a unified army made of different Legions and renegade chapters.
Example: an important part of, say, the World Eaters, is that they HATE the Emperor´s Chilren and anything Slaanesh-related. In Rogue Trader, first edition, 1988, the World Eaters had the following army wide rules: rage ("frenzy"), adamantium will equivalent, immune to fear if caused by Khorne Daemons and Hatred to: Inquisitors, psykers and spellcasters, Space Marines and followers of Slaanesh of any kind. It is part of them. Chaos is not united.
Personally I think the HH/original legions should be getting the supplements and the Renegades get a separate one that perhaps have Chapter Tactics. But then can you imagine when we get to 7th Ed, CSM get an update, and all of a sudden there is a whole new need to update all those what 10 Supplements!? Never going to happen - too much money and too much effort. Gee-dub ain't gonna do it. Good idea though.
Thanks!
I don´t know what are they gonna do in 7th with all that supplements. I assume they will not update them.
Personally I think the HH/original legions should be getting the supplements and the Renegades get a separate one that perhaps have Chapter Tactics. But then can you imagine when we get to 7th Ed, CSM get an update, and all of a sudden there is a whole new need to update all those what 10 Supplements!? Never going to happen - too much money and too much effort. Gee-dub ain't gonna do it.
Good idea though.
I think (and/or hope) that GW does what had been rumored with 6th ed CSM; the 9 traitor legions get 1 book, renegades get a different book. If they wanted to get fancy they'd split it further with the four cult legions (TS,DG,WE, and EC) in one book, and the 5 undivided in a second one, renegades get another still. So 3 books for Chaotic humans (or superhumans) plus one for Daemons = still less then Xenos or IoM, but closer
LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote: Main issue is the marks. If you're playing to fluff, the above four armies are less marked than the dedicated ones (BL too to some degree, and WB are likely to just have all the marks in diff squads). Marks are the main way to give extra "oomph" to a given squad, and the only way to unlock some Icons (i.e. FnP(5+), re-roll charges, and those two other ones no one touches). To play more fluff-focused AL, all I can manage is Icons of Vengence for Fearless (good thing cause I get no cult troops) and VotLW for that bump to Ld. That's the main reason I want supplements; so that (ideally) I can run AL like they aught to be; either loaded down with well trained (but still cheap) cultists, or popping out of the woodwork cause everything has Infiltrate. Hell, I'd love a Mark of Chaos Undivided that gave ATSKNF, sign me up!
So it does come down to oomph after all. It isn't really about being able to build an appropriate list, but having some fancy special abilities while doing so...and that is exactly why CSMs don't need chapter tactics added in. Also reading your comments of "all I can manage" and "good thing because I get no cult troops," you are imposing limits on yourself because you can't look beyond the fluff in the book. You are apparently so hung up on how berserkers and plague marines are presented in the book that you can't include them. The book isn't inflexible in this area. The PLAYERS are inflexible in this area. This was the exact point of my post to begin with from a "counts as" perspective. If you are going to limit yourself so much in unit selecting then it isn't the fault of the CSM. Just call those cult troops something else in your army, customize minis for them and model them to match the rest of your force. Why can't an AL force have a unit of elite melee troops who are scary when they charge? Remnants of earlier assault marine squads? Who knows? A unit of thousand sons can be an It really is that simple. Sure the big four are the easier forces to build because they require less thinking, really, but if you think outside the box you can build a multitide of different forces. Huron will give you the infiltrate you want. Just call him Alpharius for heaven's sake. Last I checked the CSM book isn't limited to using characters with exact forces like they are in the C:SM. Instead of looking at units and saying "I can't include them because..." start thinking, "HOW can I include them?" instead. There is always the very high likelihood that if an AL supplement comes out that the list *still* won't be exactly what you want it to be...
So it does come down to oomph after all. It isn't really about being able to build an appropriate list, but having some fancy special abilities while doing so...and that is exactly why CSMs don't need chapter tactics added in. Also reading your comments of "all I can manage" and "good thing because I get no cult troops," you are imposing limits on yourself because you can't look beyond the fluff in the book. You are apparently so hung up on how berserkers and plague marines are presented in the book that you can't include them. The book isn't inflexible in this area. The PLAYERS are inflexible in this area. This was the exact point of my post to begin with from a "counts as" perspective. If you are going to limit yourself so much in unit selecting then it isn't the fault of the CSM. Just call those cult troops something else in your army, customize minis for them and model them to match the rest of your force. Why can't an AL force have a unit of elite melee troops who are scary when they charge? Remnants of earlier assault marine squads? Who knows? A unit of thousand sons can be an It really is that simple. Sure the big four are the easier forces to build because they require less thinking, really, but if you think outside the box you can build a multitide of different forces. Huron will give you the infiltrate you want. Just call him Alpharius for heaven's sake. Last I checked the CSM book isn't limited to using characters with exact forces like they are in the C:SM. Instead of looking at units and saying "I can't include them because..." start thinking, "HOW can I include them?" instead. There is always the very high likelihood that if an AL supplement comes out that the list *still* won't be exactly what you want it to be...
Skriker
Flip things around a bit and think of it this way.... If the Space Wolves got no Grey Hunters, or Bloodclaws, then they'd be just codex marines, if the BA didnt have DC or Mephiston, etc. then theyd just be Codex as well. What other units in those books provide "extra oomph" to a players list that currently a Chaos player wishing to play his/her chosen legion, warband, chapter, etc. in a fluffy manner do not even get access to?
The reason why many players want supplements for CSM is because, as mentioned with Alpha Legion, if you take their traits or w/e then you have no cult troops (which is kinda weird from a fluff standpoint, as thats the bulk of what the Imperium can manage to take down of the AL) if I were playing AL, I wouldnt/couldnt take Khorne Berserkers, because the AL doesn't have them. And quite simply they don't fight that way, so it's dumb to take them.
I personally played an all Nurgle army. Why the feth would I even dream of taking berserkers, or rubric marines, or noise marines? As such, I am fairly well hampered should a unit get into close combat (well, except for my termies/Typhus. but even then, typhus sucks), and frankly I don't think that Chaos players should be basically penalized for taking the CSM codex, when marine players get a bonus for taking a "special snowflake" book (a la space wolves, blood angels, dark angels and formerly Black Templars), they also should not be getting an Iron Hands clan book, as last I saw, IH were one of the LEAST popular loyalist marine factions out there.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: The reason why many players want supplements for CSM is because, as mentioned with Alpha Legion, if you take their traits or w/e then you have no cult troops (which is kinda weird from a fluff standpoint, as thats the bulk of what the Imperium can manage to take down of the AL) if I were playing AL, I wouldnt/couldnt take Khorne Berserkers, because the AL doesn't have them. And quite simply they don't fight that way, so it's dumb to take them.
Did you even bother to read the post you quoted at all? Because I am not the one who said that if you use Alpha Legion you have no cult troops. My post said the opposite. Did all of the Alpha Legions' assault marines disappear into the ether just because they started fighting for the other side? Doubtful. Is there any reason that a particular Alpha Legion warband couldn't include an old assault squad that is good at its job and very aggressive? Not in the least, except when people say but I can't have "khorne berserkers" because I play Alpha Legion. Stop limiting them by only seeing them as "khorne berserkers" and there is no problem. They don't fight that way? So if Alpha legion forces had to take an enemy objective by force, as would be indicated in a 40k battle, then they wouldn't actually fight in any assaults to take said objective? That is just nuts. They were a space marine legion. While they prefer subterfuge they are just as well trained in combat as other marine legions were. Even if they infiltrate they will still have to fight to win the battle. Thus they will shoot and commit to melee. If they won't fight for some reason then there isn't much reason to bother making a force of them for the game then either. Reading the recent Alpha legion short in the Primarchs book showed the AL marines in the book to be quite aggressive in melee once they reached it.
What is dumb is ignoring units in your codex due to self imposed restrictions that are unnecessary and then blaming the book for it.
What is dumb is ignoring units in your codex due to self imposed restrictions that are unnecessary and then blaming the book for it.
Skriker
The problem with that, is that if you use "Khorne Berserkers" how are you supposed to model them in an Iron Warriors army, or Death Guard? In order to play in most pickup games around my area, if you are using Khorne Berserkers in your list, regardless of what you say your army is, those berserkers had better have bunny ears, even if it goes against the fluff of an old legion.
I agree that the old legions who fell to chaos would still have "assault troops" but there are many who do not follow any gods or any particular god, so therefore they wouldn't have Khorne Berserkers, and therefore it would be unfluffy to take them in your force.
Maybe they should introduce something that works for the entire army so that if you take "Khorne Bezerkers", you can still call your force Iron Warriors, Maybe a 'Warband Tactics' sort of thing..
I mean, the BL, WB, DG, EC, and 1KS all have a different method of fighting from one another, and 3 of those have given themselves over, basically, to the worship of one particular chaos deity, which would greater differentiate them from their brethren. and those differences, IMO are going to be much, much greater than the differences between sparkly vampire marines, werewolf marines, bathrobe prissy marines and blue marines, as those guys generally all follow the same playbook that the former boss of the blue marines sorta wrote and crammed down people's throats till they said they liked the idea.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: The reason why many players want supplements for CSM is because, as mentioned with Alpha Legion, if you take their traits or w/e then you have no cult troops (which is kinda weird from a fluff standpoint, as thats the bulk of what the Imperium can manage to take down of the AL) if I were playing AL, I wouldnt/couldnt take Khorne Berserkers, because the AL doesn't have them. And quite simply they don't fight that way, so it's dumb to take them.
Did you even bother to read the post you quoted at all? Because I am not the one who said that if you use Alpha Legion you have no cult troops. My post said the opposite. Did all of the Alpha Legions' assault marines disappear into the ether just because they started fighting for the other side? Doubtful. Is there any reason that a particular Alpha Legion warband couldn't include an old assault squad that is good at its job and very aggressive? Not in the least, except when people say but I can't have "khorne berserkers" because I play Alpha Legion. Stop limiting them by only seeing them as "khorne berserkers" and there is no problem. They don't fight that way? So if Alpha legion forces had to take an enemy objective by force, as would be indicated in a 40k battle, then they wouldn't actually fight in any assaults to take said objective? That is just nuts. They were a space marine legion. While they prefer subterfuge they are just as well trained in combat as other marine legions were. Even if they infiltrate they will still have to fight to win the battle. Thus they will shoot and commit to melee. If they won't fight for some reason then there isn't much reason to bother making a force of them for the game then either. Reading the recent Alpha legion short in the Primarchs book showed the AL marines in the book to be quite aggressive in melee once they reached it.
What is dumb is ignoring units in your codex due to self imposed restrictions that are unnecessary and then blaming the book for it.
Skriker
It's not all one sided, self imposed nerfings...
I'm playing a chosen based Night Lords chaos marine army. I use the mark of slaanesh - I get people telling me I shouldn't use marks at all as its not 'true night lords' all the time. Its possible to play an army of alpha legion khorne berzerkers (as some of them will definitely have fallen to khorne since the heresy), but you'll be asked to justify it by your opponants. I don't like games that start with a conversation goes along the lines of 'yeah, but they wouldn't use that would they, they don't fight like that' - then this leads into someone believing that marking my troops puts me into the 'doesn't care about fluff/only here to powergame' camp.
(My NL chosen use MoS as it represents the scream the NL can pull out - like the soul hunter trilogy. I have an icon bearer, modelled as an apothecary etc)
If you play a khorne slaanesh mix, you'll get arguments. If you play Night Lords but add in khorne berzerkers, you'll get arguments. People regard that as similar to playing blood angels and having a unit of thunderwolves just randomly in there.
As a chaos player my choice in this codex is to either play with self imposed nerfs or be accused of powergaming and general 'unfluffyness'
GW gave us the fluff for all the unique chaos legions and then didn't give us the rules to support them.
PredaKhaine wrote: GW gave us the fluff for all the unique chaos legions and then didn't give us the rules to support them.
That's the problem. Cult Legions can utilise their corresponding Marks, but those are often unnecessarily expensive. On the other hand, the Undivided Legions are left with nothing special; you can use the Marks/Cult troops to imitate their abilities/traits, but it's unfluffy. I've seen the old CSM Codex (edition 3.5)... would it really hurt to include such things as "Book of Nurgle" or "Book of Slaanesh"? Even the Undivided Legions got some stuff.
The Legions are defined by what they don't have just as much as by what they do have. The World Eaters are characterised both by brutal shock troops and overwhelming assaults, and also by their lack of subtlety and total intolerance of anything Slaaneshii. It is similar to the Space Wolves and their reluctance to use Teleports, lack of Combat Squads or inability to field Scouts. These limits exist because they are part of the Legion's character and just as definitive as the perks.
Also while we are on the subject, the actual representation of the Legions is limited to a single Troop choice and a Special Character. One would think that the Death Guard has access to Chosen, the elite Plague Marines that form the Lord's retinue. However the only representation we have suddenly Feels Pain and loses Fearless. They have apparently cleaned off their Plague Knives and traded in the Blight Grenades. Similarly, Sonic Weaponry is completely absent from any Emperors Children unit higher than the grunts. Khorne's Chosen are WS4 and prone to running away, cannot access Chainaxes and will lose their Furious Charge upon the death of an Icon Bearer.
I would like the Undivided Legions to be represented by something other than 'the cheap ones'. There should be more reason to field a Legionary than simply to save some points. In a world where every Loyalist Founding Chapter receives *2* special rules, in addition to entire codices, it would be nice to have the Chaos equivalents given some representation. I'd even be happy to pay for it.
I would like the Cult Legions to have Cult specialists. I would like access to Sonics, Chainaxes, Inferno Bolts and Plague Knives on everything from grunts to Terminators to Lords. I would like a Chaos Lord to charge at the same Strength value as his Berzerkers. I would like Rubric Terminators to be Fearless. Hell, I'd even accept a reduction in the capabilities of Cult units if it remains consistent. A Plague Marine isn't defined by T5 and FNP, but a Death Guard Terminator should be defined by whatever constitutes a Plague Marine, in bigger armour.
As it stands, the system is so vague as to make Legion representation a bodge-job at best and outright detrimental at worse. The Undivided Legions have no perks or use beyond saving points. The Cult Legions have no elite units or commanders without squinting your eyes and ignoring inconsistencies. Renegades and Traitors seem to have an awfully large number of Daemon Engines and Cult troops for such recent converts. The closest to being a real army is the Black Legion, so thanks for making a Supplement of the only army successfully written already.
As it is the Chaos Marine book tries to cover such a wide range of aspects that it fails to properly represent any of them, resulting in a generally Chaotic smear that falls apart as soon as you try to focus on any individual element within that.
Mozzamanx wrote: I would like Rubric Terminators to be Fearless. Hell, I'd even accept a reduction in the capabilities of Cult units if it remains consistent.
You bring up a good point... Since you mention that of Rubric Terminators... Personally, I think that Rubric Marines (and by extension, terminators) should be Chaos "Legion of the Damned" minus the 5th edition rules of deep striking at random (and probably only teleport in if they are termies)
I'm playing a chosen based Night Lords chaos marine army. I use the mark of slaanesh - I get people telling me I shouldn't use marks at all as its not 'true night lords' all the time.
Its possible to play an army of alpha legion khorne berzerkers (as some of them will definitely have fallen to khorne since the heresy), but you'll be asked to justify it by your opponants.
I don't like games that start with a conversation goes along the lines of 'yeah, but they wouldn't use that would they, they don't fight like that' - then this leads into someone believing that marking my troops puts me into the 'doesn't care about fluff/only here to powergame' camp.
(My NL chosen use MoS as it represents the scream the NL can pull out - like the soul hunter trilogy. I have an icon bearer, modelled as an apothecary etc)
If you play a khorne slaanesh mix, you'll get arguments.
If you play Night Lords but add in khorne berzerkers, you'll get arguments. People regard that as similar to playing blood angels and having a unit of thunderwolves just randomly in there.
As a chaos player my choice in this codex is to either play with self imposed nerfs or be accused of powergaming and general 'unfluffyness'
GW gave us the fluff for all the unique chaos legions and then didn't give us the rules to support them.
Silly that people call using your codex completely powergaming. Your use of Marks of Slaanesh in your night lords, though, shows that you are looking outside the norm for which I give you kudos. Which works for me. Generally my whole attitude on other people telling me I am doing *my* army wrong is that it is MY army and I can build it however I wish as long as I follow the rules in the codex as they are presented. There is not a single rule in the chaos codex that requires Night Lords to not have any marks on their units, nor is there any restriction on having slaanesh and khorne in a force together in CSM, though I would argue that playing night lords and using slaanesh and khorne marks to set your units up as you prefer is not actually play slaanesh and khorne in a force together because you are playing nightlords and not a mix of Emeperor's Children and World Eater's. The only real restriction on marks is that a unit can only have one and an IC has to share the same mark as a unit it wants to join. So people self impose nerfs that everyone else expects them to use. What is the point of that? I just don't get it. I guess I'm weird in that as long as what my opponent puts on the table is codex legal I just don't care what fluff they want to build around it to give it meaning to themselves. All those nerfs on chaos and not using marks and cult troops except specifically in a CSM legion force who follows the appropriate god have nothing to do with actual codex legality. Fluff are not rules. They are context. As long as the rules are right an opponent's context is all for them really.
As for your last sentence my whole point here is that I disagree. GW did give us the rules to support them, but the players and the community put a bunch of restrictions on them to make them unusable in that context. Other people demanding you use your codex the way that they want you too isn't all that different from those who demand you paint your models the "right" way. If your Iyanden ghost warrior force isn't painted yellow or blue, it is *wrong*. I call just as much BS on that and most others do too, so why do people let others dictate how they are allowed to use their codex?
Ensis Ferrae wrote: The problem with that, is that if you use "Khorne Berserkers" how are you supposed to model them in an Iron Warriors army, or Death Guard? In order to play in most pickup games around my area, if you are using Khorne Berserkers in your list, regardless of what you say your army is, those berserkers had better have bunny ears, even if it goes against the fluff of an old legion.
I agree that the old legions who fell to chaos would still have "assault troops" but there are many who do not follow any gods or any particular god, so therefore they wouldn't have Khorne Berserkers, and therefore it would be unfluffy to take them in your force.
It is sad that you play in a meta where your berserkers "must" have bunny ears. Those miniatures look terrible... As for modeling berserkers for Iron warriors or Death guard, just kit out appropriate looking models with chain swords and axes, bolt pistols and a selection of plasma pistols. Add extra details to the models to highlight their "elite" status and go from there. It is a totally simple conversion project and would be alot more satisfying that using bunny eared marines. Your Iron warriors could have bionic parts, and could be modeled with cool looking powered chainsaw like weapons (I am imagining the goblin bloodbowl star player with the chainsaw who's name is eluding me at the moment). Meanwhile the death guard "berserkers" would be bloated, poxy and disgusting just like all the other death guard.
Your last line is just completely missing the point. You are not including khorne berserkers in your force. You are including an aggressive, elite assault unit that uses the *rules* of "khorne berserkers". There is a massive difference here. I am not saying play Alpha Legion and just have random units of khorne berserkers dolled up like khorne berserkers and ranting blood for the blood god six ways to Sunday in your army. I am saying add an assault unit to your AL force, painted up in alpha legion colors, converted to have the weapons listed for berserkers and using the rules for berserkers, but they are NOT actually khorne berserkers. The mark on the unit becomes a mechanic and not a hard core dedication to a chaos god. The former option would be, as you say, unfluffy, while the second is just fine. You really need to stop obsessing over the name of the unit so much.
Skriker
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kronk wrote: I'd like to see more supplements. Variety doesn't suck.
Just print the damn things already. I want REAL books.
Yes real books are a nice touch. Annoying release of ebook only in the hope of getting people to buy the things twice once they actually print a book.
There is not a single rule in the chaos codex that requires Night Lords to not have any marks on their units, nor is there any restriction on having slaanesh and khorne in a force together in CSM, though I would argue that playing night lords and using slaanesh and khorne marks to set your units up as you prefer is not actually play slaanesh and khorne in a force together because you are playing nightlords and not a mix of Emeperor's Children and World Eater's.
There is none, but at the same time most people are finding that it's far better to do space marines for their Chaos Codex's then the actual CSM codex, which is kinda depressing when you can use the Special Snowflake chapters and get your Warband over the actual Chaos Codex.
The Black Legion codex supplement is now available in print, but only in the Chaos Collection, which includes the CSM book, The CD book, and the BL Book, along with artwork book. Hopefully they will make it available soon just by itself.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There is none, but at the same time most people are finding that it's far better to do space marines for their Chaos Codex's then the actual CSM codex, which is kinda depressing when you can use the Special Snowflake chapters and get your Warband over the actual Chaos Codex.
Sadly this is what we get with codecies when there is no unified vision for each edition of the game and codex authors are left to their own devices almost completely. This lack of vision is also what let's some books be super awesome while others are just ok and still others are completely meh. :\ It still confounds me that after so many years it is almost as if the authors of a new codex will lock themselves in a room away from any and all other influences, including the current rules and existing codecies, to write their "masterpiece" which in the end can fit in nicely, not fit in at all, or be way too over the top and there doesn't seem to be anyone overseeing the process or calling anyone out on making lame or OP codex in the least...
chaosvoices wrote: The Black Legion codex supplement is now available in print, but only in the Chaos Collection, which includes the CSM book, The CD book, and the BL Book, along with artwork book. Hopefully they will make it available soon just by itself.
I've been told by the local gw manager it will be available on saturday, presumably to order.
I've been pestering him for 3 weeks, since the last WD said it was out...
I agree with most of what the guys here say. the main book itself already described the renegades and black legion quite happily. Where the cult troops were, just the warbands who had split up and came and gave the BL or RCs a hand. Hence just a single unit fighting alongside the main force. (Except that under half of the legions might as well be smurfs for all the differences that they seemed to get out of our book).
What we want though is a full army of our given flavour. With something that suits what they are about. Yes the Zerkers may have fractured and are just a bunch of loons (Though why there would even be any left I have no idea - Where are they getting their recruits from? Surely those recruits, may be Khorny, but the bionics wouldnt be there). The others may have fractured as well, but lets face it not as badly.
Don't you think it likely that a "warband" would number around 100 guys? Heck even 50. Then look at how many of those dudes you have in your 1500pt list? Why wouldn't that be a single legion force still under 1 crazy lord/sob.
Trolling aside (Looking at you Mugumbo, whatever your name is), we don't want to play black legion armies.... Hence why we have 10 different legions to choose from (Yes counting one of the unknown primarchs here).
I originally started a khorne army. But having 1 lord, Kharne and as many zerkers as I can fit on a board doesn't really fit with what their legion was (Well kinda). But giving them something else to use, Drop pods, less shooty and a fanatical devotion to killing pinkos... Would just be nice.
I enjoyed the last book. Still enjoy the new book most of the time (Not against Tau). But desperately wanted to be able to split my army into better flavours. Pretty much exactly what I could do if I was a loyalist player.
My only hope is that they bring out some suppliments that allow me to do this instead.
And tbh it will only promote "others" from downloading PDFs of the suppliments now that we've got to fork out all of that cash for the books.
But if you want to play IW, NL, AL, WBs the current book really does let you down. yes you can still manage it.
Oh and for the troller, I think you'll find most CSM players don't really like the dragon that much, they just feel they need 3 of them to be comfortable with their own inadequicies. Personally I prefer to play a Chaos Marine army, not a cultist army. Thats now why I got into the game. Having a flier is good, cause we never got one. But I would also have preferred to have a troop carrier drop ship/drop pod as part of our book. Just cause we're chaos marines, don't mean we've stopped using space ships and (most of) the other trappings of a marine army. Sure it's OP. But just cause you don't like them, don't be a hater on the user. I can't stand the Tau codex cause I get tabled every time. Doesn't mean I hate the riptide.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh actually Mukumbu. Since you hate the dragon so.
If you did get a Khorne Zerker suppliment that prevented them from having a Helturkey entirely and forced them to use actual troops, assault style armies... don't you think that would be something better?
Even with allies, you'd only be left with the 1 drake at that point.
Just sayin.
I would like to hear what the Black Templers players have to say now that they've been rolled up into the main book.
chaosvoices wrote: The Black Legion codex supplement is now available in print, but only in the Chaos Collection, which includes the CSM book, The CD book, and the BL Book, along with artwork book. Hopefully they will make it available soon just by itself.
The black legion supplement is now available to pre order on its own
I got to page two and stopped reading because I had to get something off of my chest.
You KNOW GW doesn't care about Chaos because they've done everything in reverse with this double-edged sword attitude about how to make every good thing ,suck simultaneously.
Case in point: CHAOS DOESN'T EVEN HAVE STORM BOLTERS FOR IT'S TERMINATORS!!! We have COMBI-BOLTERS. The crap Chosen upgrade too! Combi-bolters! Rapid-fire, no assault, combi-suck bolters.
Chaos is pirating Imperium technology....haven't gotten any Storm Bolters yet....or Thunder Hammers, or Storm Shields, or Chapter Tactics. We don't get all the vehicles like different Land Raiders and flame-tanks like the Sisters of Battle get. GW DOESN'T EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THERE ARE WOMEN IN THE CHAOS ARMY, OUTSIDE OF DAEMONETTES WHO HAD TO DIE AND BE REINCARNATED AS A SLAANESHI DAEMON TO BE RECOGNIZED. We don't get assault transport drop ships that hover and shoot through themselves, and we don't get to shoot 4 aerial weapons off in one firing run.
And SM players have the GALL to cry foul about a Heldrake? The best thing about it, aside from Daemonforge and it's invulnerable save is that even if you knock out the baleflamer, it can still vector strike! But no! We screwed up the vector strike enough so that it's no threat to loyalist Land Raiders.
It's like they're trying just hard enough to pretend like they're saying "We're trying and we care." They don't. They need some real CSM inspiration over there to give the freaking loyalists a run for the money instead of this "Well...we won't give you chapter tactics....but if you pay for these two things you can kinda have something like that! You know with those Chaos Gods ya'll like so much more than your Legions?"
Sorry, but if Chaos get's shafted with Marks of Devotion to the Chaos Gods then Space Marines should have to buy Marks of Devotion to their freaking Primarchs or the Emperor himself. How would that chap your ass, Loyalists?
No more Blood Angels. No more Black Templar. All you get is Mark of the Emperor: +1 Toughness. Or Mark of Dorn: +1 Ballistic Skill + Banner of Fists gives your Bolters rapid fire. Not even rapid fire at any range. Just normal rapid fire your bolters already have.
So it's just flat out insulting to Chaos players for anyone to think for one second we're not being booted in the Codex. Hell, they would've been better off releasing a Codex that was like the Black Legion supplemental and then releasing a supplemental to the Chaos Gods themselves. Do it the other way around instead of this crap-fest we've got now. :\
I'm a sisters player and sometimes I come close to feeling sorry for Chaos players.
"Next up in our release schedule, Chaos Supplement: Warbands! Now you can have an unispired, boring warband of your own! What? You want...legions? Well...um...you can't have legions. I don't care how many times you ask. No, I don't care that there are still enormous legions around, you aint getting them. So stop asking." - GW
And SM players have the GALL to cry foul about a Heldrake? The best thing about it, aside from Daemonforge and it's invulnerable save is that even if you knock out the baleflamer, it can still vector strike! But no! We screwed up the vector strike enough so that it's no threat to loyalist Land Raiders.
Wait. Your complaint is that the Helldrake hs been nerfed because it cannot hurt one] expensive unit in C:SM while it murders just about everything else?
I've read some hilariously ridiculous complaints, but this one is way up there.
And SM players have the GALL to cry foul about a Heldrake? The best thing about it, aside from Daemonforge and it's invulnerable save is that even if you knock out the baleflamer, it can still vector strike! But no! We screwed up the vector strike enough so that it's no threat to loyalist Land Raiders.
Wait. Your complaint is that the Helldrake hs been nerfed because it cannot hurt one] expensive unit in C:SM while it murders just about everything else?
I've read some hilariously ridiculous complaints, but this one is way up there.
No. It's not that the Heldrake was nerfed. It CAME nerfed. Especially when you consider crap like a Vendetta throwing four Lascannon shots out of its nose into the ass of a Heldrake, while still having room left over for Deathstrike Missiles or whatever the hell other OP piece of crap the Space Marines can get there hands on.
I like the Heldrake. I won't apologize for it. Even with it's stunted weapon options, it is still a good flier while probably not good for fighting other fliers. Personally, I'd rather have Hell Talons. And the only thing Heldrakes murder that Space Marine players are sad about is the Baleflamer. Honestly, ya'll don't give a crap about the Hades Autocannon, in fact you'd prefer it because it would make our Heldrakes suck a little more. But we had to have something, even if it's a failed attempt at feigning consideration for ones business model and those invested in it.
If you bothered to read my post instead of Cherry Pick the point about Heldrake, you'd realize my problem is with the complete under-equpping of the Traitor Legions.
It's pretty bad when other Space Marine players look at you and ask "What's a combi bolter?"
You know your storm bolters? "Yeah." It's like that but worse. "Yeah, but what is it?" Exactly like it sounds. Two bolters duct taped together. :\
EVEN THE LANGUAGE ISN'T THE SAME. We have "combi" bolters. Space Marines have Twin-Linked Boltguns. One of these sounds like a weapon and the other sounds like a McGuyver experiment.
And SM players have the GALL to cry foul about a Heldrake? The best thing about it, aside from Daemonforge and it's invulnerable save is that even if you knock out the baleflamer, it can still vector strike! But no! We screwed up the vector strike enough so that it's no threat to loyalist Land Raiders.
Wait. Your complaint is that the Helldrake hs been nerfed because it cannot hurt one] expensive unit in C:SM while it murders just about everything else?
I've read some hilariously ridiculous complaints, but this one is way up there.
I think the rage came from the fact that mansa or whatever was raging and saying they don't deserve a supplement because of a heldrake in particular whining about how broken op it is (even though there are many other broken units in this game that also get upgrades)
I don't think that's really what you should be going up against AV 14 with anyway, Most armies struggle against that. Its why you tool up on Melta Chosen or Nurgle. Or chainfists.
Anyway apologies for his link. Its probably rubbish, but this would be pretty awesome.
MWHistorian wrote: I'm a sisters player and sometimes I come close to feeling sorry for Chaos players.
"Next up in our release schedule, Chaos Supplement: Warbands! Now you can have an unispired, boring warband of your own! What? You want...legions? Well...um...you can't have legions. I don't care how many times you ask. No, I don't care that there are still enormous legions around, you aint getting them. So stop asking." - GW
My guess is there are 3 "countdown clocks" on the walls of GWHQ.
One clock is for Squats, One for Chaos Legions, and one is now present for Sisters. And they get reset each time we mention how much we want one or all of them back
I just want a better warlord trait table, and artefacts. Im fine with 2 pages of additional stuff.
Oh, and FREE USR modifiers for the existing units in the book. Turn my CSM Plague Marines into 4+FNP Plague Marines that all carry Nurgles Rot, which would be like a Soul Blaze thing.
Or Night Vision and Stealth for Night Lords, with a first turn is ALWAYS night rule, and on further 4+ rolls it can keep going that way, like the damn Necrons can do. I mean, Night Lords bombard the atmosphere just to do this!
MWHistorian wrote: I'm a sisters player and sometimes I come close to feeling sorry for Chaos players.
"Next up in our release schedule, Chaos Supplement: Warbands! Now you can have an unispired, boring warband of your own! What? You want...legions? Well...um...you can't have legions. I don't care how many times you ask. No, I don't care that there are still enormous legions around, you aint getting them. So stop asking." - GW
My guess is there are 3 "countdown clocks" on the walls of GWHQ.
One clock is for Squats, One for Chaos Legions, and one is now present for Sisters. And they get reset each time we mention how much we want one or all of them back
Sounds crazy, but it does seem to fit the facts. I think you may be on to something.
Grumzimus wrote: I don't think that's really what you should be going up against AV 14 with anyway, Most armies struggle against that. Its why you tool up on Melta Chosen or Nurgle. Or chainfists.
Anyway apologies for his link. Its probably rubbish, but this would be pretty awesome.
I had a look at chaos 3.5 last night - at the night lords rules.
May only take the mark of chaos undivided.
May only use furies (no other deamons)
May use dp's and possessed as these are Night Lords with extra abilities
Night Vision
Can buy Stealth
Can swap 2 HS slots for 1 FA slot
Can have more than 1 raptor squad
I think thats about it - I'd take Night Vision and Stealth and be happy from that list...(the FA for 2 HS would be a bit much now - with BL allies, that'd be 5 Heldrakes in some armies.)
But I've had a thought - how would everyone else do the WB, NL, AL and IW in the current dex?
I think Night Lords work well with slaanesh (I5 = Scream, FNP icon bearer as apothecaries)
IW work very well with the MoN (to represent bionics)
What about the AL and the WB? how could we represent them?
PredaKhaine wrote: What about the AL and the WB? how could we represent them?
Using just the current Codex, WB should make extensive use of Possessed, Cultists and Dark Apostles, and take Chaos Daemons as allies.
AL, on the other hand... good ol' CSM, Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Tanks... No Marks, no Daemons, no Sorcerors.
So, no the chaos codex doesn't support those two legions then.
The Alpha's would get nothing of note and some self imposed nerfs and the word bearers need to ally in a separate codex and take other self imposed nerfs - Possessed/Dark Apostles I'm looking at you
Yeah Alpha Legion are very much not in the codex, but Word Bearers I think can be done very easily within the codex. The Dark Apostle just sucks though. So... bring the deamons.
Defo think that the NL & AL need the love, then the Iron Warrors. Followed by Khorne. out of the 4 main focus legions that we have in our codex (Still no idea why BL got a suppliment) they are the ones needing some help. Followed by Thousand Sons.
But we'll keep holding our breath whilst the loyalist scum get individual clan books and other rubbish that isn't nearly as desperately needed as something to flavour up our vanilla codex.
Grumzimus wrote: Yeah Alpha Legion are very much not in the codex, but Word Bearers I think can be done very easily within the codex. The Dark Apostle just sucks though. So... bring the deamons.
Defo think that the NL & AL need the love, then the Iron Warrors. Followed by Khorne. out of the 4 main focus legions that we have in our codex (Still no idea why BL got a suppliment) they are the ones needing some help. Followed by Thousand Sons.
But we'll keep holding our breath whilst the loyalist scum get individual clan books and other rubbish that isn't nearly as desperately needed as something to flavour up our vanilla codex.
I dunno, I honestly think Thousand Sons need it first, considering how bad they are now. I mean sure they are represented but it's just so bad.
Yep, the poor Tzeentch chaps could use some love. Here, have a pat on the back from Uncle Slaanesh
Btw, the Raukaan Clan supplement... Okay, I like Iron Hands (oh, the irony), but REALLY, a SINGLE COMPANY gets its own supplement whilst Legion-sized forces of Chaos get barely some traces of fluff&crunch? My mind collapses the moment I try to comprehend that.
Ohh, and because they are all the same, even though they have a "handful" that smell really bad, and a "handful" that also get really angry and chop things up (ok, well they never really calm down), and you have a "handful" who are actually just hollow suits of armor with a consciousness, ohh and you have a handful that are completely fething deaf and LOOVE some
on the enemy as it swoops past makes sense. While I agree it is 
