Hey All,

We've seen so many of these threads "Is Forgeworld legal? What is the stance of GW on Forgeworld? Will Forgeworld be allowed in tournaments?"... as a suggestion from another thread, I decided to open a thread where we can list the POSITIVES of bringing Forgeworld into "Standard 40K". So I'm posing it to the Dakka community, what do your Forgeworld units bring to the game that isn't given by the standard game? What are the positives of 40K being integrated into the game?

I'll start:

The Beautiful Models - I don't think anyone would debate that Forgeworld makes some very nice models. They have high detail and are quite wonderful to behold on the table top.

Cool new Units - Tired of the same old boring dreadnought? Why not bring a Contemptor? Want to bring a 'castle' feel to your army? Bring tarantula turrets. Want some cool additions to your battlewagon? Bring da Claw!! Want a cool walker for your 40K Warriors of Chaos Army? Bring along a Decimator! Tired of the same old Cadians and Catachans... why not some Elysians and Death Korps!! There are lots of cool options for lots of existing armies. There is always some additional flavor to be dropped into existing books.

New Fluff - The books are fantastically detailed and most often have lots of cool stories. The missions are primarily used for Apocalypse, but there are some great rules to be found within each book, and they're helpful with terrain setup and ideas for new army types.

Again, there are always downsides, and those have been brought up a lot in the other discussions, maybe it'd be nice to shed some positive light on the subject.

New Army Lists - Armored Battlegroup is my real hearthrob army, and Elysians offer Air-Cav without the silliness of the Guard codex. Death Korps gives a grittier, World War I style infantry feel than the semi-modernish Guard codex does.

I wouldn't mind forge world if it was easier to get. Its to bad they don't have a US branch or at least carry it in stores. The shipping is ridiculous.

You could use those models you spend so much money on more often.

If you can get games, of course.

Strangely: More Balance with a wider range of options of flyers and AA it really breaks the game up and balances flyers and FMCs out more.

I'd say the alternate army lists help shake up what we usually see being used being played too which is never a bad thing.

 wowsmash wrote:
I wouldn't mind forge world if it was easier to get. Its to bad they don't have a US branch or at least carry it in stores. The shipping is ridiculous.

Find some friends at your FLGS. Save up your orders and cash until you have enough to hit the "no shipping" level of 250gbp. No shipping cost AND they ship out the pricier orders faster. I always just save up my pennies now until I can hit that mark and then order. Much better than buying 250gbp in mins in smaller batches and paying their crazy shipping prices each time. Or you can order stuff right now while they have a free standard shipping sale going on.

Edit add: For the OP:
The models are gorgeous and given that not many people use them, they are often unique in a local meta. The rules are more balanced than people give them credit for as well. The books are highly detailed, full of backstory and fluff and new unit rules. I also really like the chaos lists from the 3 Vraks campaign books (IA 5-7) as they combine many different types of chaos forces into one. I only own a single FW superheavy a malcador defender, and it is such a ghetto super heavy. It has a devastator cannon hull mounted in the front, 2 lascannon and a bunch of heavy bolters in a superstructure in place of a turret. Hardly the kind of thing to make titans or other superheavies feel any fear.

Skriker

I usually bring a CSM Contemptor and I love him, I don't care if he does very little, he is still a great addition to my force

Although I think he is starting to get the title of Bug killer at my FLGS simply because on his last wound, he punched a Trygon in the chest and ripped its innards out , next stop a Hive Tyrant me thinks

Also I think it would be a good thing if FW was included more as it adds so much more to the game imo, I used to get really bored of the game until I found IA, now its much more enjoyable imo, none of the units straight out break the game like some do in normal codex's but they do add a powerful boost to you army, and in some cases for old codex's its a really good addition to have imo

Well, I'm not too keen on FW models. The same holds for our gaming group. In our bimonthly APO battles some of us field the GW released plastic kits for Baneblade pattern tanks and other super heavies and we are happy with them

I've noticed these threads kicking off lately, with Rosa Parks allusions and all, and I think it's all a bit ridiculous.

Who cares? What's the big deal? It's all toy soldiers anyway.

Many FW models are beautiful, and add much more variety to the standard GW armies. For instance, CSM get the Chaos Spartan Assault Tank, that is a Land Raider+ that's actually somewhat viable, and the Chaos Storm Eagle, a durable, flying assault transport. There are, of course, many more.

I personally have an EC Sonic Dreadnought with a Blastmaster and Doom Siren. It looks awesome beside my Noise Marines and so far has proven a decent unit in my recent games.

Thud wrote:
I've noticed these threads kicking off lately, with Rosa Parks allusions and all, and I think it's all a bit ridiculous.

Who cares? What's the big deal? It's all toy soldiers anyway.

You get some who are trying to force the hobby into a little box of what they think it should be (which often has a stipulation of "no Forgeworld") and make accusations of things being "forced" on them while they force their opinion of the game (which really isn't as narrow as they define as the article in my sig talks about) on everyone else.

Oddly a lot of these people also play competitively so there is an argument to be made there that they feel threatened by having their meta shaken even though a lot of what we're talking about doesn't have anything to do with tournaments.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Thud wrote:
I've noticed these threads kicking off lately, with Rosa Parks allusions and all, and I think it's all a bit ridiculous.

Who cares? What's the big deal? It's all toy soldiers anyway.

You get some who are trying to force the hobby into a little box of what they think it should be (which often has a stipulation of "no Forgeworld") and make accusations of things being "forced" on them while they force their opinion of the game (which really isn't as narrow as they define as the article in my sig talks about) on everyone else.

Oddly a lot of these people also play competitively so there is an argument to be made there that they feel threatened by having their meta shaken even though a lot of what we're talking about doesn't have anything to do with tournaments.

Considering the sort of "arguments" coming from the pro-FW camp on these forums, you shouldn't really point your fingers too much on the anti-FW camp. Some of those pro-FW guys in that thread in the Tournaments forum don't really seem like the sort of guys I'd like to play against.

I can't speak for everyone but I feel tournaments are basically already their own game that's pretty well removed from the normal game so trying to argue FW there is really a debate on it's merits/detriments with whomever wants to run the thing.

Outside of that I just don't like seeing people shove the entirety of what the game into a tiny little box and declaring everything outside that "not 40k". This game is too big, has too much freedom and too many things for us to do to define it that narrowly. It's more than just X or Y, it's a wide spectrum that we have people who are trying to force everyone to ignore to suit their individual tastes over everyone else's.

I stand by the statement I've made before: play what you and your opponent will agree is fun for both of you, damn everything else. It's all legal as long as it's done to be an enjoyable experience for everyone, if it's not enjoyable than you, or your opponent or, most likely, both, have done something wrong and failed to set up an experience you can both be happy with, FW or not.

it FW wasnt such an IOM love fest, it would be much more accepted.

that, despite FW and GW making statements that FW 40k approved stuff is 100% legal, it is so widely REJECTED in tournament play, should speak volumes to how the community perceives FW "balance"

if every single army got their equivalent of undercosted units like artillery carriages and so on, it would be fine.

its such a shame that while most of FW's rules are just fine, that enough are broken, and unfortunately more in the IOM's favor then anyone else.

once the rules are as nice looking as the models, and the FW love is spread around a bit more, then I think it will become more and more accepted in competitive/tournament play.

as for casual, have at er! all for fun anyways right?

With the GW prices so heavily inflated in Australia, a DKoK army only costs a couple of extra hundred dollars from Cadians (if buying direct from GW). Comparing DKoK models to Cadians is a no brainier for me, especially if it only takes an extra pay check or two to buy it all.

 easysauce wrote:
it FW wasnt such an IOM love fest, it would be much more accepted.

that, despite FW and GW making statements that FW 40k approved stuff is 100% legal, it is so widely REJECTED in tournament play, should speak volumes to how the community perceives FW "balance"

if every single army got their equivalent of undercosted units like artillery carriages and so on, it would be fine.

its such a shame that while most of FW's rules are just fine, that enough are broken, and unfortunately more in the IOM's favor then anyone else.

once the rules are as nice looking as the models, and the FW love is spread around a bit more, then I think it will become more and more accepted in competitive/tournament play.

as for casual, have at er! all for fun anyways right?

I'm sorry but I am tired of the unbalanced claims. When we have screamstar, seer bikers, riptides, etc and I look in a FW book and realize quite a bit of it is sub par I laugh at such a notion. Also its not so dramatically imperial leaning. Usually its that LR with one or two tweaks and really only due to the fact that making IA for Imperium v. Etc is very easy to do. (Although I would love to see some more DE, ad mech, ecclesiary, inquisition, Tyranid, and chaos stuff. The more the better )

FW models would get more cred from me if they did them in plastic. They already charge enough to justify putting them out in plastic instead of resin. That said, I do agree that their design department is usually better. It's a hard sell to say that FW marine bikes look worse than the GW ones, or that DKoK look worse than cadians.

As for new units - meh. People are always going to pool into taking THE list and being as uncreative as possible in their desire for the easiest win they can get. FW doesn't really add anything here, it just changes the percentage of models that come from FW in your average netlist.

The one thing I would say in favor of it along these lines though, is that fully incorporating FW into 40k would help people take the game less seriously. Unencumbered by the needs of game balance (what little is manageable already), and the codex cycle, FW can, and does, put out a huge amount of content. In a deluge of what amounts to DLC for a tabletop game, you're no longer going to be able to preserve the faintest shred of the game being a strategy game in the face of "these are the bonkers new toys you get NOW!" coming out. People conspire that GW only makes models to drive sales and nothing else (like, say, making a good game), while in the case of FW, this is a naked fact.

But, that's a fine line. If the game devolves into "who wins is who buys this month's fancy new thing", then we're going to see a game where you buy victory. That's a boon because it REALLY destroys any credibility of 40k being a strategy game, but it's a bad thing for me at least because it fundamentally undoes why I got into 40k from MTG in the first place. I guess, on the plus side, you'd know really quickly who you shouldn't play games against because they'd show up with the new stuff from forgeworld, but you can already do that as-is.

I haven't actually read any of the FW fluff (well, almost none), so can't really comment. GW has been hurting in the fluff department of late, and if the black library also isn't doing the job, then it's nice to think that there's a third attempt being made somewhere.

I love the models. I also love some of the goofier rules... reminds me of my RT/1st edition days when we'd have to invent rules (usually based on the fluff) to make up for the huge gaps in the official rule book.

Case-in-point... grot tanks/megatanks. The idea that you can get an invul because the parts of the vehicle that are being blown off are completly superfluous to it's operation... very funny. Very fluffy too. Just my style.

I agree with most of the positives above;
Models
Forgeworld models are incredibly detailed. So detailed that it often makes the painter want to up their game to match. My favorite models are my forgeworld ones.
Variety in Units
They may give more units to IoM but the units they give to eldar, CSM, and CD (the xenos armies I have forgeworld for) are really good. Wraithseers, warp hunter, phoenix, nightwing, hornet, decimator, contemptor mortis, and spined chaos beasts are all fantastic models that also have good rules.
Variety in Army Lists
Forgeworld actually makes it possible to field a variety of army lists. With Codex: IG I can field vendettas and tanks...an all foot list is a pipe dream and if I try to field valks then I loose my ability to take enough vendettas to not auto loose to necrons. With FW added I can field all foot lists with no problem using artillery and I can field a valkyrie drop list using elysians. I can field an CWE air force list that doesn't blow up by turn 3.

In my experience forgeworld unlocks types of armies you would never be able to run under the codex with any chance at winning and makes these armies reasonably capable. This cuts down on the number of "That List" as people have alternatives if they want to win. An example is do you bring a 3 vendettas or 6 sabre platforms and a vulture? With the sabre's you no longer have to bring the vendettas but then you may not have forward scoring and you could run into a DE player (who makes mockery of artillery T7).

Thud wrote:Considering the sort of "arguments" coming from the pro-FW camp on these forums, you shouldn't really point your fingers too much on the anti-FW camp. Some of those pro-FW guys in that thread in the Tournaments forum don't really seem like the sort of guys I'd like to play against.

I find it funny that you barge into a thread named, "Forgeworld - Come see the brighter side..." to say this. Perhaps the anti-FW person within you has become a bit more rabid than you would want?

easysauce wrote:it FW wasnt such an IOM love fest, it would be much more accepted.

that, despite FW and GW making statements that FW 40k approved stuff is 100% legal, it is so widely REJECTED in tournament play, should speak volumes to how the community perceives FW "balance"

if every single army got their equivalent of undercosted units like artillery carriages and so on, it would be fine.

its such a shame that while most of FW's rules are just fine, that enough are broken, and unfortunately more in the IOM's favor then anyone else.

once the rules are as nice looking as the models, and the FW love is spread around a bit more, then I think it will become more and more accepted in competitive/tournament play.

as for casual, have at er! all for fun anyways right?

I do agree that FW needs to show more love to DE specifically. I am okay with their love level toward CD, CSM, and CWE where the number of units are less but the units they get fix major weaknesses in the armies and add entirely new play styles. The DE units look really good on paper but I have not tried any (I have almost every HQ for that army but only 10 warriors and a venom...thank goodness for allies).

If I could get myself to make the purchase, I would really think that a Hornet would be really cool for my Eldar, which are themed as "Corsairs" by being built as a Saim-Hann force. I'd like to take something "lighter" than a Falcon or Fire Prism.

A Wraithseer would be cool, but is stupidly easy to convert from a Wraithlord model with sword and the D-cannon from a support battery.

Forge World is the epitome of two friends saying "wouldn't it be cool to field "X" in a 40K game?"

I'd love to buy a Spartan Tank or the Fire Raptor... horribly expensive to me, though

@AegisGrimm
And they go out find a very talented sculptor, knock him over the head, and chain him to a bench somewhere...

 ansacs wrote:

Thud wrote:Considering the sort of "arguments" coming from the pro-FW camp on these forums, you shouldn't really point your fingers too much on the anti-FW camp. Some of those pro-FW guys in that thread in the Tournaments forum don't really seem like the sort of guys I'd like to play against.

I find it funny that you barge into a thread named, "Forgeworld - Come see the brighter side..." to say this. Perhaps the anti-FW person within you has become a bit more rabid than you would want?

Ehh... what?

I came into this thread to say this:

I've noticed these threads kicking off lately, with Rosa Parks allusions and all, and I think it's all a bit ridiculous.

Who cares? What's the big deal? It's all toy soldiers anyway.

Which, I think you'll find, is what I did.

And then ClockworkZion replied to my post, criticizing some of the Anti-FW crowd, and I pointed out that some of the pro-FW guys are much worse.

None of that has any influence on my position on whether or not FW should be allowed in games. I am still in favour of FW, even though massive douches are on my side of the argument.

There is one type of unit that I may want to use . Saber defense platforms . But to use them I would have to spam them and the cost of the models is mind blowing ,on top of it being online ordered only. And then when I compere it to what other armies can get , like melta immune LR , which are indestructible vs IG or the new Riptide , my interest in the platforms lessens a lot.
I would rather want GW make hvy weapon teams actualy viable to take out of an IG dex.

But all of that is a secondery thing .FW is not allowed to be used in tournaments , so people don't buy it and if they don't have FW units , they wont play against people using FW rules, I don't think I have seen more then 5 actual non recast FW models in 2 years of playing . One was an EC dread , one tank that looked like a WWII elefant for IG and the rest was loyalist marine stuff.

Isn't think thread supposed to be about what Forgeworld units we think would be cool to field, and the reasoning as to why?

I don't like some of their fluff (just doesn't synch too well with what I grew up with), but what I do like is the expanded model range as well as certain units that are just "oldschool" but were abandoned by the GW core studio. Case in point, the Thudd Gun.
I learned to love it in Final Liberation for the sound alone.
Also, I really dig the Tauros jeeps. I'll be sure to incorporate those into my own little interpretation of the 41st millennium.

If only they'd expand their range further ... unfortunately, most of their material seems focused on IG and Space Marines. Then again, business is business, I guess.

I forgot the best part. The books themselves are absolute works of art. They even feel nice in your hands.

@Thud
Fair enough. I prefer "excessively motivated". BTW and as I have said before a FW discussion without references to nazi and racism and some name calling is not a real FW debate.

@Makumba
If you want to get some FW models then I highly recommend getting a group together. You will find that 1 sabre platform will help your army just as much as a landraider achilles. The LR is so many points that it starts removing major portions of their army. The only non experimental FW units that are noticeably underpriced are sabres and heavy artillery. These units only become so when you can spam them with lord commissars to mitigate their leadership problems. I have found the rest are only game changing when you get surprised by them.

@Lynata
Thudd guns are all fun and games until you resolve a battery of 12 of them...then it is work. Still looks cool though.

1: More variety. Even full armies!
2: Lots of new units to play with and customize your army.
3: Beautiful models. Average quality higher than the regular 40k.
4: Great background. Average quality higher than the regular 40k.
5: Units that some armies really really need (the Avenger for SoB/AS comes to mind).
6: Stupidly sexy high quality stuff that I am no longer finding in GW´s products (yes I know FW is GW too, you know what I mean). For example, Betrayal and Massacre are incredibly good (and expensive).
7: "Oldschool" stuff as pointed out by Lynata.
8: Help some players to realize that there is fun out of the basic Codex.
And more.

 wowsmash wrote:
I wouldn't mind forge world if it was easier to get. Its to bad they don't have a US branch or at least carry it in stores. The shipping is ridiculous.

ifthey were to be willing to make a few copies of the moulds, we have a huge workforce looking for something to do and are out of jobs. My hometown has an empty plant with the railroad going straight into it and a town full of workers. Opening a US branch would be easy peasy and not only allow them to expand but also to multiply their profit margin.

Much easier to win competitive events. Since the rules are optimized, there's very few bad choices. And as I've said many, many times before, experience is the most powerful factor that wins games. The most powerful unit available to you is the one your opponent doesn't know how to fight against, and can't anticipate. That just multiplies the effectiveness of Forgeworld units exponentially. If the TO for an event you have coming up allows them, Forgeworld units can add a huge punch to your lists!

Hope you don't think that my Objective Opinion thread was an attack on you or the stuff you like, Matt. I may not think Forgeworld units are all totally balanced, but I certainly don't hate them.

Forgeworld fulfilled my greastest desire, a DKoK Grenadier army list. I've been trying to play that with various workarounds (or some other stormtrooper-esque) army for 3 editions, and FW made it come true, even though it's definitely got some drawbacks and stinkers

Also, the Armored Battlegroup is tons of fun, even though I almost never win with it. Easily my 2nd favorite list to run in 40k currently.

Well, they did give my SoB SM Battle Brothers, so that's something. I mean, they're not Black Templars, but those Red Hunters guys are pretty cool too.

 Lynata wrote:
I don't like some of their fluff (just doesn't synch too well with what I grew up with)

Oh? I've only ever asked about their SoB fluff, but were you unhappy with other parts of it?

Also, they can do it well too. As we've agreed before, the Repressor has some pretty nice fluff behind it.

i actually find the ig a bit 'meh'. I know they're insanely popular, and i wouldn't say they were bad per se, but the dkok look too much like steel legion, and the drop troopers look too elite to me.

I'm looking forward to the imperial army release though...fingers crossed it'll bring awesome new ig models, the rest of the 30k stuff has been top notch.

 Rippy wrote:
With the GW prices so heavily inflated in Australia, a DKoK army only costs a couple of extra hundred dollars from Cadians (if buying direct from GW). Comparing DKoK models to Cadians is a no brainier for me, especially if it only takes an extra pay check or two to buy it all.

Not sure what's it's like now but 2 years ago it was a few dollars cheaper to buy a Battlewagon with a supa Kannon + postage than it was to buy a battle wagon in store. Because of this price difference I actually see quite a few Australians using FW even if it is just because they want an alternative looking model.

Hell it's cheaper to make a DKoK Assault Brigade now than an Eldar army relying on multiple squads of Dire Avengers

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hell it's cheaper to make a DKoK Assault Brigade now than an Eldar army relying on multiple squads of Dire Avengers

that's an unfair comparison. Dkok require a high number of infantry squads, eldar don't *need* loads of dire avengers. Five infantry boxes would set you back £115 from games workshop, or £160 at forgeworld. When you factor in discounts, including discounted batalians, you can easily pick up infantry squads for half the price of the dkok.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hell it's cheaper to make a DKoK Assault Brigade now than an Eldar army relying on multiple squads of Dire Avengers

They're $11 per model ($55 for 5) in Australia at GW AU RRP. Highly amusing ; p DKK are $1.40 per model from our communist friends to the north, whom due to GW AU RRP see lots of custom from my brethren.

<3 Forgeworld models and rules, however imperfect they may be. DKK especially are actually good looking truescale (or close to) infantry models you can use with other games and not feel embarrassed about. Cadians and Catachans look horrible next to virtually any other range, it's ridiculous. So many good kits have come out of FW, the HH offerings are often great, the Iron Hands come to mind as being especially awesome.

Since the FW options for Nids are nigh useless or dumb looking (IMO) I refuse to buy them.

So no, there isn't a brighter side to FW for me.

@Jimsolo - No, didn't even know you started that thread to be honest. Everyone is welcome to their opinion on Forgeworld, some are more vocal then others. I will check out that thread now though, thanks for alluding to it.

@Thud - I'm attempting to avoid those types of claims and comparisons to sensitive issues. And I'd wager lots of people care, since there are numerous posters in each discussion started.

I had primarily made this thread for some of us less forceful Forgeworld players to say what it is about Forgeworld that makes us happy to play it and what good things we thought it brought to 'standard' games.

I have said before that I don't feel Tournaments are "Standard Games". They are orchestrated events with varying rules and guidelines outside of a standard book mission or pick-up games.

To be honest, as I have said before, I dislike competitive / tournament play because it usually brings out the worst in players. Competition is for some folks, I prefer the story and creative aspect of the game / hobby. Again this is where I find Forgeworld Books and models to excel, in the ability to tell a story.

I agree it would be nice to see some more Xenos love, in fact.. LOTS more xenos love, but IoM sells... lots.

I love the models and fluff. Their Horus Heresy stuff. And their tanks! Stygies VIII+Mars Alpha hull=Yes please.

i love the models. almost every single thing up on that site is O.O worthy lol. Especially in the Ork categories. i want a Gargantuan Squiggoth so bad, its so epic looking, but i dont play apoc so i'd never get to use it >.<

Im actually going to get some of the Tau suits to use in place of Commanders since i HATE the GW model for commanders, and i like my HQs to stand out. A different paintjob doesnt cut it lol.

Though, i wish i could tell what the models did before buying the book. Orks i know what they do, Tau i have no flippin clue outside the new and ridiculously overpowered XV107 lol.

Whomever said that the Achilles Land Raider is indestructible against IG has never tried using a pair of Vanquisher command tanks with co-axial stubbers.

 Ailaros wrote:
FW models would get more cred from me if they did them in plastic. They already charge enough to justify putting them out in plastic instead of resin. That said, I do agree that their design department is usually better. It's a hard sell to say that FW marine bikes look worse than the GW ones, or that DKoK look worse than cadians.

Not just no. HELL no. You can't do the same things in plastic that you do in resin, so plastic versions of DKoK/tanks/etc would be a huge step down in quality and lose all of the things that makes them worth buying in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Whomever said that the Achilles Land Raider is indestructible against IG has never tried using a pair of Vanquisher command tanks with co-axial stubbers.

Or anything really. The LR Achilles got its reputation for being indestructible in 5th edition, but under the 6th edition rules it's not that much more durable than a regular LR.

I just love the variety. Yeah as an IG player I might be getting the best deal as far as variety goes, but surely diversity in what your opponents are doing can be refreshing too. There's just so much more freedom to explore different playstyles and lists, not to mention opportunities in model-building.

the terrain alone should at least convert some people.

I own a city board and as much as it can bring limitations to certain games and army lists it liberates others and throwns down different ways to play - especially smaller level games.

i've started building up a zone mortalis set up now. what does GW have thats even close to that?

FW was always a favourite for me when i first started buying from them in 1999 - they have just got better and better since. The HH weekender was a hobby led (not retail led) weekend and has made it something that GW has slipped its grasp from.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Whomever said that the Achilles Land Raider is indestructible against IG has never tried using a pair of Vanquisher command tanks with co-axial stubbers.

yes but no one brings vanquishers, let alone two. I play guard and i have never glanced av14 to death, it's melta or nothing. Such a tank would be nigh indestructable vs guard, but that's life. Sometimes there are hard counters...it can't be as bad as foot guard vs blood angels in fifth.

xruslanx wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Whomever said that the Achilles Land Raider is indestructible against IG has never tried using a pair of Vanquisher command tanks with co-axial stubbers.

yes but no one brings vanquishers, let alone two. I play guard and i have never glanced av14 to death, it's melta or nothing. Such a tank would be nigh indestructable vs guard, but that's life. Sometimes there are hard counters...it can't be as bad as foot guard vs blood angels in fifth.

My standard 2000 point army is:
2x Command Vanquishers with co-axial stubbers, hull lascannons, artificer hulls, and beast hunter shells.
2x Command LRBT with artificer hull, infernus shells
4x vanilla LRBT
2x Thunderer siege tank

Plus ~300 pts change

xruslanx wrote:
yes but no one brings vanquishers, let alone two.

So maybe you should reconsider that choice when you know that there are units that are immune to melta. Or just spam more Vendettas/Manticores/etc.

Love Forge World, always have.

Love the variety it brings even if it is just for the cool factor. I see models and I think...Man I would have so much fun painting it and making it look badass. But after that I kinda want to play with it too.

While I agree some race are under-represented (Nids, Dark Eldar) and I hope this will eventually be fixed in a future books.

I love the look and feel of the Tauros. I can just picture my Catachan driving around a camo version complete with camo-net firing a grenade launcher.

Getting cover fire from a Vulture with huge chainguns raining shells in the jungle below.

BTW I still don't get what's the big deal with the Vulture people are going nuts over it like it's a relentless engine of destruction. It will go down like every other flyer.

I love my Eldar Hornets (were good at first but are now very good since last update) and Shadow Specters (Love the models and fluff and given my Craftworld is Mymeara it fits.).

Even have a phoenix bomber which is a beast but...costs something like 220 for AV10 all around and 3 HP.

In our local Meta FW is accepted and nobody blinks. We see an FW model and ask what does it do? Allright cool. Let's play and have fun. We have a very nice gaming club and the attitude of the players counts for alot.

Troike wrote:Oh? I've only ever asked about their SoB fluff, but were you unhappy with other parts of it?

Eh, there's just tons of stuff in the Vraks books doesn't quite add up, from my perspective. Both in terms of who gets sent to do the fighting as well as how they do it. Lasers ricocheting off of power armour? Nope. Not in my 40k. Same with the usual poster boys taking all the glory - honestly, you've got an Apostate Cardinal stirring up trouble, but who is getting sent to deal with him? Not the Ordo Hereticus, whose job it is to watch the Ecclesiarchy. Not the Sisters, who have some of their own rotting in said Cardinal's dungeons. Nope. Malleus and the shiny Grey Knights, as if they wouldn't have enough coverage elsewhere (including other FW books). Meanwhile, the Sororitas are relegated to the role of Damsel in Distress.

Call it faction jealousy, but this sort of stuff is a pet peeve of mine. Would've been better to not mention them at all instead of inserting them only to highlight their apparent helplessness.

It's a shame, for all in all the Vraks books are really well written. I enjoyed reading about the campaign.

Oh, did I mention I still don't like the Avenger? Neither its looks, nor that its fluff insinuates the SoB depend on the Navy for air support. Something else from FW I'll just ignore in favour of the original core studio fluff.

Troike wrote:Also, they can do it well too. As we've agreed before, the Repressor has some pretty nice fluff behind it.

That much is true, hence the "some".
Unfortunately it seems to remain an exception from the rule, at least as far as SoB are concerned.

That's not to say I do not enjoy some of FW's non-SoB fluff, though!

 Lynata wrote:
Oh, did I mention I still don't like the Avenger? Neither its looks, nor that its fluff insinuates the SoB depend on the Navy for air support.

So what exactly do you think SoB use for air support? Have they ever been given fluff that includes their own dedicated air support, while even marines have to ask the navy for help sometimes? And no, "they don't have air support" isn't an option if they want to participate in 40k battles outside of special SoB-only scenario missions.

 Lynata wrote:

Troike wrote:Oh? I've only ever asked about their SoB fluff, but were you unhappy with other parts of it?

Eh, there's just tons of stuff in the Vraks books doesn't quite add up, from my perspective. Both in terms of who gets sent to do the fighting as well as how they do it. Lasers ricocheting off of power armour? Nope. Not in my 40k. Same with the usual poster boys taking all the glory - honestly, you've got an Apostate Cardinal stirring up trouble, but who is getting sent to deal with him? Not the Ordo Hereticus, whose job it is to watch the Ecclesiarchy. Not the Sisters, who have some of their own rotting in said Cardinal's dungeons. Nope. Malleus and the shiny Grey Knights, as if they wouldn't have enough coverage elsewhere (including other FW books). Meanwhile, the Sororitas are relegated to the role of Damsel in Distress.

Call it faction jealousy, but this sort of stuff is a pet peeve of mine. Would've been better to not mention them at all instead of inserting them only to highlight their apparent helplessness.

To be fair, at least they do a decent job of explaining why the Ordo Malleus get's involved and why the Ordo Hereticus gets sidelined in the story. While understandably frustrating for someone who likes the SoB, I didn't find their portrayal particularly awful, just unfortunate for those in question, ending up as sad pawns in a game between Inquisitorial Ordos, a particularly grimdark end for a grimdark story. Not so much "Damsels in Distress", awaiting heroic rescue, but more "they're just f****d, there is no good end here". It's still better than the Ward treatment and the ridiculous Bloodtide.

I really like Forgeworld a lot.

They have expanded all kinds of units, for all of my armies, so I have no reason to complain. I really love the new Necron stuff, and the updated Chaos stuff in the new IA Apoc book. I'm lucky I guess that no one has a problem playing Forgeworld. I just make sure to bring a copy of the book, in case there are any questions.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Whomever said that the Achilles Land Raider is indestructible against IG has never tried using a pair of Vanquisher command tanks with co-axial stubbers.

yes but no one brings vanquishers, let alone two. I play guard and i have never glanced av14 to death, it's melta or nothing. Such a tank would be nigh indestructable vs guard, but that's life. Sometimes there are hard counters...it can't be as bad as foot guard vs blood angels in fifth.

My standard 2000 point army is:
2x Command Vanquishers with co-axial stubbers, hull lascannons, artificer hulls, and beast hunter shells.
2x Command LRBT with artificer hull, infernus shells
4x vanilla LRBT
2x Thunderer siege tank

Plus ~300 pts change

so, forgeworld isn't op because you can use other forgeworld to counter it?

The models are very well built. The fluff is amazing. There are far more rules per page than a GW Supplement. Sure there are some broken units that feth up the rules, but they aren't as readily available for spam...so that makes it better than Scythes, Riptides, Helldrakes or Vendettas already.

The only thing I'm not a fan of is the Armored Battlegroup. I understand the want to take this for the 'idea and fluff' of bringing tanks to a battle...but without prior consent from a player so they can somewhat tailor a list...this game is TERRIBLY boring. I'm VERY pro-FW, but the two players in my area prefer ABG armies for regular games of 40k don't get many games. This is because Objective games become a hide-and-seek fest since the tanks can't Deny Objectives, and half of a regular army...or more...can't touch the tanks without assaulting. Just annoying games to play without prior warning.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I'm not too keen on FW models. The same holds for our gaming group. In our bimonthly APO battles some of us field the GW released plastic kits for Baneblade pattern tanks and other super heavies and we are happy with them

That doesn't do much for the Eldar/Tau/Dark Eldar crowd.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
The models are very well built. The fluff is amazing. There are far more rules per page than a GW Supplement. Sure there are some broken units that feth up the rules, but they aren't as readily available for spam...so that makes it better than Scythes, Riptides, Helldrakes or Vendettas already.

The only thing I'm not a fan of is the Armored Battlegroup. I understand the want to take this for the 'idea and fluff' of bringing tanks to a battle...but without prior consent from a player so they can somewhat tailor a list...this game is TERRIBLY boring. I'm VERY pro-FW, but the two players in my area prefer ABG armies for regular games of 40k don't get many games. This is because Objective games become a hide-and-seek fest since the tanks can't Deny Objectives, and half of a regular army...or more...can't touch the tanks without assaulting. Just annoying games to play without prior warning.

While I can sort of understand this, in my experience playing against ABG's is usually an easy win, precisely because the ABG usually has few or no scoring units, and often little ability to maneuver to get better firing positions on troops behind cover sitting on an objective

There is only one complaint I have about FW and that is some of the detail on the larger models. I bought one of the slaaneshi daemon lords because the model is pretty impressive and will be a nice centerpiece on the Slaanesh/Tzeentch daemon army shelf (I intend to add one of the nurgle daemon lords for my other daemon army at some point). The one thing thatis crazy is that ALL of the spiky details on the daemon lord are separate pieces. Drove me nuts trying to keep track of and manage all of the spikes on the Khorne daemon prince model, but there have to be 3 times as many on the slaaneshi lord. Going to go bloody blind working on this one and this is the primary reason that I've built all the other kits I got in the order with this one, but the lord is still waiting to be cleaned up and built...doh!

Yeah first world problems in a big way: My super detailed uber cool model is too super detailed.

Skriker

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
In our local Meta FW is accepted and nobody blinks. We see an FW model and ask what does it do? Allright cool. Let's play and have fun. We have a very nice gaming club and the attitude of the players counts for alot.

It would be awesome if more people were like that. Still, I don't complain myself for now, since I have no problems at all using a FW Sonic Dreadnought whilst playing with my closest gaming friends. I've explained what kind of weaponry it has and established the points cost with them, and we're all happy.

I find a 10-tank ABG with extra units for flavor a tactical challenge to win with, which always yields moments of excitement during the third or fourth turn climax.

As for Forgeworld countering Forgeworld, you mean regular 40k units countering other regular 40k units. I don't see what's wrong with that. It would suck if you needed an Apoc unit to counter it, yes.

 Peregrine wrote:
So what exactly do you think SoB use for air support? Have they ever been given fluff that includes their own dedicated air support, while even marines have to ask the navy for help sometimes?

It was mentioned that they have their own ships back in their 2e codex, and this hasn't been retconned, to my knowledge. And, of course, there's the simple fact that SoB fluff hasn't really gone anywhere for a while, being pretty much only slightly to moderately expanded or recycled. So the absence of fluff specifically dealing with SoB air support certainly doesn't mean that it can't exist.

 Peregrine wrote:
And no, "they don't have air support" isn't an option if they want to participate in 40k battles outside of special SoB-only scenario missions.

We can deal with flyers pretty well without using FW, actually. Exorcist spam or a quad gun manned by Dominions (who can mae it ignore cover) generally put flyers down just fine.

Though a flyer would certainly be nice, but suggesting that we need it to participate in 40K battles at all is wrong.

 Troike wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So what exactly do you think SoB use for air support? Have they ever been given fluff that includes their own dedicated air support, while even marines have to ask the navy for help sometimes?

It was mentioned that they have their own ships back in their 2e codex, and this hasn't been retconned, to my knowledge. And, of course, there's the simple fact that SoB fluff hasn't really gone anywhere for a while, being pretty much only slightly to moderately expanded or recycled. So the absence of fluff specifically dealing with SoB air support certainly doesn't mean that it can't exist.

Well, see, the problem with this argument is that the fluff for the Avenger did retcon it, by saying that the Sisters need to call upon the Imperial Navy for air support.

If you don't like that retcon, it's fine, the fluff is malleable. But to say that Forge World is wrong to retcon the fluff because the fluff hasn't been retconned is nonsensical.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Whomever said that the Achilles Land Raider is indestructible against IG has never tried using a pair of Vanquisher command tanks with co-axial stubbers.

AV14 immune to melta , IWND procing on +4 , PotMS . totaly easy to kill and what am I suppose to do with two vanquishers against all other armies?


Also aren't command tanks armor company only?

Makumba wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Whomever said that the Achilles Land Raider is indestructible against IG has never tried using a pair of Vanquisher command tanks with co-axial stubbers.

AV14 immune to melta , IWND procing on +4 , PotMS . totaly easy to kill and what am I suppose to do with two vanquishers against all other armies?


Also aren't command tanks armor company only?

Command tanks are indeed armored company only, but with allies you can get at least one command Vanquisher in almost any army save Tyranids, iirc.

You could use the Vanquishers to kill their vehicles, or the Beast Hunter shells to ID Characters/MCs (especially hilarious against riptides and wraithknights). Hell, the AP2 blast can kill just about any infantry to varying degrees of effectiveness. And the coaxial stubber can add some wounds to light infantry, while making the blast twin-linked as well.

I don't want to play armored company . I play IG not armored company. + I wouldn't be able to fit them in to an army , most people here play 1500pts .

Even If I take one , if I don't start my opponent will just kill it turn one with a pod unit , because the vanquisher isn't immune to melta .

So maybe you should reconsider that choice when you know that there are units that are immune to melta. Or just spam more Vendettas/Manticores/etc.

Do you know how many turns it takes to kill a LR with + 4 IWND AV14 and melta immunity , with 10 lascannons , without any cover ?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Well, see, the problem with this argument is that the fluff for the Avenger did retcon it, by saying that the Sisters need to call upon the Imperial Navy for air support.

If you don't like that retcon, it's fine, the fluff is malleable. But to say that Forge World is wrong to retcon the fluff because the fluff hasn't been retconned is nonsensical.

But it didn't retcon them having their own starships. And to get things planet-side in starships, you'll probably need aircraft. All it says is that they request the Avenger because it's a potent symbol to them, not that they lack access to aircraft altogether.

And anyway, I'm not sure that FW has the tightest grip on SoB fluff. As Lynata mentioned, FW has them simply not showing up to a Cardinal going rogue, and said Cardinal having executed several SoB already. I'd much rather see what GW has to say on the issue, really.

Makumba wrote:
I don't want to play armored company . I play IG not armored company. + I wouldn't be able to fit them in to an army , most people here play 1500pts .

Even If I take one , if I don't start my opponent will just kill it turn one with a pod unit , because the vanquisher isn't immune to melta .

So maybe you should reconsider that choice when you know that there are units that are immune to melta. Or just spam more Vendettas/Manticores/etc.

Do you know how many turns it takes to kill a LR with + 4 IWND AV14 and melta immunity , with 10 lascannons , without any cover ?

Unwillingness to adapt your army and tactics (seriously, there have been tactics to avoid podded AT for like 3 editions now) to a new threat shows conservatism on a scale I don't think I can even fathom.

Seriously, your argument against Forge World inclusion is "I DUN WANNA CHANGE MY LIST OR TACTICS! I WANT TO BE EXACTLY THE SAME AS I'VE ALWAYS BEEN!"? Most people consider that a detrimental thing...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
The models are very well built. The fluff is amazing. There are far more rules per page than a GW Supplement. Sure there are some broken units that feth up the rules, but they aren't as readily available for spam...so that makes it better than Scythes, Riptides, Helldrakes or Vendettas already.

The only thing I'm not a fan of is the Armored Battlegroup. I understand the want to take this for the 'idea and fluff' of bringing tanks to a battle...but without prior consent from a player so they can somewhat tailor a list...this game is TERRIBLY boring. I'm VERY pro-FW, but the two players in my area prefer ABG armies for regular games of 40k don't get many games. This is because Objective games become a hide-and-seek fest since the tanks can't Deny Objectives, and half of a regular army...or more...can't touch the tanks without assaulting. Just annoying games to play without prior warning.

While I can sort of understand this, in my experience playing against ABG's is usually an easy win, precisely because the ABG usually has few or no scoring units, and often little ability to maneuver to get better firing positions on troops behind cover sitting on an objective

That's what I meant to say, in that they either wreck the enemy through kill points or loose handily in Objectives

So without prior knowledge and bringing a proper counter force, kill point missions suck.
And without the ABG player bringing supporting troops, objective missions suck.

Basically, win or lose...it is rarely an interesting game.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
The models are very well built. The fluff is amazing. There are far more rules per page than a GW Supplement. Sure there are some broken units that feth up the rules, but they aren't as readily available for spam...so that makes it better than Scythes, Riptides, Helldrakes or Vendettas already.

The only thing I'm not a fan of is the Armored Battlegroup. I understand the want to take this for the 'idea and fluff' of bringing tanks to a battle...but without prior consent from a player so they can somewhat tailor a list...this game is TERRIBLY boring. I'm VERY pro-FW, but the two players in my area prefer ABG armies for regular games of 40k don't get many games. This is because Objective games become a hide-and-seek fest since the tanks can't Deny Objectives, and half of a regular army...or more...can't touch the tanks without assaulting. Just annoying games to play without prior warning.

While I can sort of understand this, in my experience playing against ABG's is usually an easy win, precisely because the ABG usually has few or no scoring units, and often little ability to maneuver to get better firing positions on troops behind cover sitting on an objective

That's what I meant to say, in that they either wreck the enemy through kill points or loose handily in Objectives

So without prior knowledge and bringing a proper counter force, kill point missions suck.
And without the ABG player bringing supporting troops, objective missions suck.

Basically, win or lose...it is rarely an interesting game.

'

You guys are either incredibly dull critics that need to be set on fire to feel anything, or haven't been playing in my area ever (I'm guessing the latter). There's two ABG players here, and their games (against whomever) always attract a crowd.

I run an ABG, I don't mind that the army is very win/big lose big, I have fun every game I play with it, but there is an element of truth in that it can be a very binary army, usually not in favor of the ABG

I'm thinking the Mortis dread's anti-flier abilities are going to be a boon for competitive DA.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Makumba wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Whomever said that the Achilles Land Raider is indestructible against IG has never tried using a pair of Vanquisher command tanks with co-axial stubbers.

AV14 immune to melta , IWND procing on +4 , PotMS . totaly easy to kill and what am I suppose to do with two vanquishers against all other armies?


Also aren't command tanks armor company only?

Command tanks are indeed armored company only, but with allies you can get at least one command Vanquisher in almost any army save Tyranids, iirc.

You could use the Vanquishers to kill their vehicles, or the Beast Hunter shells to ID Characters/MCs (especially hilarious against riptides and wraithknights). Hell, the AP2 blast can kill just about any infantry to varying degrees of effectiveness. And the coaxial stubber can add some wounds to light infantry, while making the blast twin-linked as well.

so you admit that it is more or less unkillable by any list that is not specifically tailored to counter that one vehicle?

Gather round folks, we may be close to seeing something special...a forgeworld acolyte is actually close to admiting that a fw unit is actually op!

Hardly unkillable. It can be killed with medusa, lascannons, manticores, vanquishers, and demolisher cannons. It obviously isn't something I would want to spring on people but if you know it is an option and you don't take at least one of those weapons you deserve to get beaten.

In fact your average IG list takes a minimum of 9 lascannons from the vendettas everyone and their dog takes.

There's a large array of weapons that can kill the achilles, it's not as powerful as it's original incarnation, its rules got toned down and the 6E vehicle rules don't work well, it's primary role of being an invincible scoring bunker no longer works.

 ansacs wrote:
Hardly unkillable. It can be killed with medusa, lascannons, manticores, vanquishers, and demolisher cannons. It obviously isn't something I would want to spring on people but if you know it is an option and you don't take at least one of those weapons you deserve to get beaten.

In fact your average IG list takes a minimum of 9 lascannons from the vendettas everyone and their dog takes.

lascannons will bounce off it, medusas, vanquishers and demolishers are very rare in most guard lists, though vanquishers will still flop with about a 12% chance to pop it. You might manage to strip its hull points away if you divert your entire army towards shooting it for a couple of turns, which will be helpful if your opponent was curteous enough to not use the rest of his army for a while.

Incidentally it will take 16 twin-linked lascannon to strip it to death, on average.

xruslanx wrote:

lascannons will bounce off it

Not any moreso than anything else that's AV14...

, medusas, vanquishers and demolishers are very rare in most guard lists

The latter two yes, the Medusa makes appearances often enough. Demolishers were more popular before the change to Heavy/Lumbering Behemoth.

You might manage to strip its hull points away if you divert your entire army towards shooting it for a couple of turns which will be helpful if your opponent was curteous enough to not use the rest of his army for a while.

Incidentally it will take 16 twin-linked lascannon to strip it to death, on average.

If you can deal with a couple Leman Russ tanks at range, you can deal with an Achilles, both of which cost near the same amount of points. If you're relying entirely on melta for anti-AV14, then you're opponent has merely exploited a flaw in your list.

I am guessing you do not use prescience libbys or inquisitors?

I noticed you completely ignored the manticore. Nice.

That is terrible that a model might make underused portions of the codex see more use. Definitely not a good thing.

A single vendetta has a 12.5% chance to explode the thing and strips 0.75 HP per turn. The rather common 3 vendetta lists you see will have a 36% chance to explode the thing in 1 turn.

It is a 300 point vehicle with the fire output of ~2 vendettas. Your assertion it is invincible is just not right. It is decent at getting a large unit from point A to point B. That is it.

I don't mind FW (but only cuz I have a contemptor and a Achilles) as long as they have "approved" rules.

 ansacs wrote:
I am guessing you do not use prescience libbys or inquisitors?

I noticed you completely ignored the manticore. Nice.

That is terrible that a model might make underused portions of the codex see more use. Definitely not a good thing.

A single vendetta has a 12.5% chance to explode the thing and strips 0.75 HP per turn. The rather common 3 vendetta lists you see will have a 36% chance to explode the thing in 1 turn.

It is a 300 point vehicle with the fire output of ~2 vendettas. Your assertion it is invincible is just not right. It is decent at getting a large unit from point A to point B. That is it.

this may surprise you, but i don't run vendettas, or ally cheese. If the only way of killing said unit is by using over-powered units...then that unit is over powered. I never said it was more over powered than anything in any existing codex. Though as it happens, i can't think of any other 'cheese' units that are so over powered even when there's only one of them.

If my opponanent ran such a tank against me, it'd be an auto-lose unless i got very lucky and glanced it to death with meltaguns. If i was mentally ill and took some demolishers i might have a fighting chance, as long as i had them deployed in the right place. But on average i wouldn't fancy my chances.

Fair enough. I was only talking about prescience and vendettas since they are common in most lists. Even simple HWT lascannons with orders can kill it too. What type of army do you run? It would be more productive I think to brainstorm ways to kill it within your list type.

Even if you cannot kill it then you can very easily ignore it. For 300 pts it has negligible firepower and if they put something in it then it is a deathstar and deserves the deathstar treatment; ie kill everything else.

xruslanx wrote:
this may surprise you, but i don't run vendettas, or ally cheese.

So maybe this is the problem: you arbitrarily declare certain strategies to be "cheese", and then you have trouble dealing with stuff because you've ruled out your best counters.

If my opponanent ran such a tank against me, it'd be an auto-lose unless i got very lucky and glanced it to death with meltaguns. If i was mentally ill and took some demolishers i might have a fighting chance, as long as i had them deployed in the right place. But on average i wouldn't fancy my chances.

So then maybe you should reevaluate your opinion that taking demolishers makes you "mentally ill", since they seem to be your best counter (in addition to Manticores, Vendettas, etc). It sounds like the problem here is that you're stuck on the assumption that you can't change your list and have to use melta as your only counter AV 14. In that case adding the LR Achilles is good for the game because it forces you to think about including some diversity in your choices instead of just taking melta and assuming you're done.

Plus, doesn't this contradict your argument elsewhere that bad balance makes the game better? I would think that you of all people would love these overpowered units because it's a great game when you get crushed by them with no counter available.

If your list can't deal with any single unit, the problem is with your list, not the unit you are facing. This is a simple truth no matter what rules are in place.

I dunno - I'm not sure how I'm supposed to save my Tervigons from a drop pod Rune Priest jawing then to death.

Aside from rolling better that is.

Put 18"+ of gaunts spaced out as a honeycomb so that if the drop pod does scatter onto the troops the contents of the pod die.

 ansacs wrote:
Put 18"+ of gaunts spaced out as a honeycomb so that if the drop pod does scatter onto the troops the contents of the pod die.

Do you mean die in the next turn when they get swamped or something? Because they wouldn't die on the turn they arrive would they, the pod would just displace to the outside of the gaunt formation?

Seeing as how the drop pod won't suffer from scattering onto a unit, and there's a 6" disembark from the pod, and Jaws has a 24" range, I'd have to literally deploy models in no mans land to avoid it.

Given that's impossible, how about we agree it's a bad idea? Your suggestion would require literally flooding my deployment zone and throwing models in illegal deployment places.

TBH I'm not that scared of them and can mostly handle them. But saying its a problem with my list is factually incorrect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your suggestion also ignores that it would be a horrible list against anything but pod priests. "Problem with the list" indeed.

If you scatter onto a unit your reduce scatter until you can land. Honeycomb patterns can allow you to place the pod without being able to place the unit.

Where did I even mention deploying as such? You guys are talking about illegal deployments when it doesn't even involve deployment.

If you do not loose the game to a single unit your list is dealing with it. Your entire comment is then pointless as your list is dealing with rune priests according to your latter comments. The comment you replied to was dealing with the assertion that a single unit would mean an auto loose of the game. Such prompted my comment. Though I guess if you are loosing the game to such then you probably are lining all your units up in a 24" line so even screening will not manage it.

BTW you can leave a ~5" gap between the gaunts and the tervigon as the pod needs to be more than 1" from each unit. The priest has to be 1" from the outer gaunt...18+1+5=24"

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
In our local Meta FW is accepted and nobody blinks. We see an FW model and ask what does it do? Allright cool. Let's play and have fun. We have a very nice gaming club and the attitude of the players counts for alot.

It would be awesome if more people were like that. Still, I don't complain myself for now, since I have no problems at all using a FW Sonic Dreadnought whilst playing with my closest gaming friends. I've explained what kind of weaponry it has and established the points cost with them, and we're all happy.

Totally agree. if more FW players were willing to do demonstration games and allow peopleto check out their stuff, the distrust of FW might lessen. I'm tickled to death to even see the models.

 ansacs wrote:
If you scatter onto a unit your reduce scatter until you can land. Honeycomb patterns can allow you to place the pod without being able to place the unit.

You'd either have to have a massive pattern or a dumb opponent.

Where did I even mention deploying as such? You guys are talking about illegal deployments when it doesn't even involve deployment.

You're aware drop pods come down turn 1, right? Ie is likely that I haven't been able to do anything but deploy.

If you do not loose the game to a single unit your list is dealing with it. Your entire comment is then pointless as your list is dealing with rune priests according to your latter comments. The comment you replied to was dealing with the assertion that a single unit would mean an auto loose of the game. Such prompted my comment. Though I guess if you are loosing the game to such then you probably are lining all your units up in a 24" line so even screening will not manage it.

That's the point though - my list isn't managing it. My tactics are. The first few times I played against a 4 pod priest list I lost horribly (turn 3 was the longest game). Without changing my list one iota I started winning most games against them to the point I'm having a bad day if I lose.
You said that lists had to deal with units. That's not always true.

BTW you can leave a ~5" gap between the gaunts and the tervigon as the pod needs to be more than 1" from each unit. The priest has to be 1" from the outer gaunt...18+1+5=24"

So 3-4 turns of movement (to get the 18" honeycomb)... How is that valid advice again?

Regardless, my point was that your statement was way too broad - not everything can be solved with list building alone. Tervigons getting nukes 2/3 of the time by jaws cannot be fixed by list building (not well anyway - you'll neuter yourself against non jaws lists) alone.

 EVIL INC wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
In our local Meta FW is accepted and nobody blinks. We see an FW model and ask what does it do? Allright cool. Let's play and have fun. We have a very nice gaming club and the attitude of the players counts for alot.

It would be awesome if more people were like that. Still, I don't complain myself for now, since I have no problems at all using a FW Sonic Dreadnought whilst playing with my closest gaming friends. I've explained what kind of weaponry it has and established the points cost with them, and we're all happy.

Totally agree. if more FW players were willing to do demonstration games and allow peopleto check out their stuff, the distrust of FW might lessen. I'm tickled to death to even see the models.

So you keep mentioning demonstrations games. How do you propose people do that who play in areas where people unanimiously refuse to even entertain FW being played because they think it's "unofficial" or "not legal"? This is a problem that can't always be solved by playing demo games you know. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's just one that isn't applicable 100% of the time and I think you fail to recognize that in favor of pushing that constantly.

Wasn't my advice and your comment boils down to what then? That because of bad play rune priests stomped you once upon a time but your list was fine and you stopped playing badly? Considering all your statements I have lost track of your point completely.

 Peregrine wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
this may surprise you, but i don't run vendettas, or ally cheese.

So maybe this is the problem: you arbitrarily declare certain strategies to be "cheese", and then you have trouble dealing with stuff because you've ruled out your best counters.

If my opponanent ran such a tank against me, it'd be an auto-lose unless i got very lucky and glanced it to death with meltaguns. If i was mentally ill and took some demolishers i might have a fighting chance, as long as i had them deployed in the right place. But on average i wouldn't fancy my chances.

So then maybe you should reevaluate your opinion that taking demolishers makes you "mentally ill", since they seem to be your best counter (in addition to Manticores, Vendettas, etc). It sounds like the problem here is that you're stuck on the assumption that you can't change your list and have to use melta as your only counter AV 14. In that case adding the LR Achilles is good for the game because it forces you to think about including some diversity in your choices instead of just taking melta and assuming you're done.

Plus, doesn't this contradict your argument elsewhere that bad balance makes the game better? I would think that you of all people would love these overpowered units because it's a great game when you get crushed by them with no counter available.

If you don't understand something, say so. You clearly don't understand why anyone would not powergame/waac so i'm just going to stick you on ignore.

ansacs wrote:Wasn't my advice and your comment boils down to what then? That because of bad play rune priests stomped you once upon a time but your list was fine and you stopped playing badly? Considering all your statements I have lost track of your point completely.

Talore wrote:If your list can't deal with any single unit, the problem is with your list, not the unit you are facing. This is a simple truth no matter what rules are in place.

Read Talores post carefully. Let's assume you lose over and over to a single unit your opponent brings. If al you do is "play better" and start winning, was your list at fault? It takes a good understanding of what's happening to determine if your list is at fault or your tactics. There's zero guarantee that exists here so in reality the statement should be "It's very unlikely that with the units available to you and tactics available to you that a single model is overpowered enough to win games." Unfortunately that doesn't roll off the tongue as well so people only look at half the issue. After my second loss I sat down with my list and his and thought about tailoring... But decided my list was fine. Telling someone else that the problem is with their list may end up with them learning little except that they can tailor to a specific list.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Forgeworld fulfilled my greastest desire, a DKoK Grenadier army list.

FW are in the process of fulfilling my greatest desire - a full range of Mechanicum models!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
In our local Meta FW is accepted and nobody blinks. We see an FW model and ask what does it do? Allright cool. Let's play and have fun. We have a very nice gaming club and the attitude of the players counts for alot.

It would be awesome if more people were like that. Still, I don't complain myself for now, since I have no problems at all using a FW Sonic Dreadnought whilst playing with my closest gaming friends. I've explained what kind of weaponry it has and established the points cost with them, and we're all happy.

Totally agree. if more FW players were willing to do demonstration games and allow peopleto check out their stuff, the distrust of FW might lessen. I'm tickled to death to even see the models.

So you keep mentioning demonstrations games. How do you propose people do that who play in areas where people unanimiously refuse to even entertain FW being played because they think it's "unofficial" or "not legal"? This is a problem that can't always be solved by playing demo games you know. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's just one that isn't applicable 100% of the time and I think you fail to recognize that in favor of pushing that constantly.

I have YET to see anyplace where 100% of the people refuse to even look at a FW models. Pretty much any shop in the country will be more than happy to let you use yours while the shopowner uses their own (most shops have least one on display. if no one locally has any, play one of your buddies who has some at the shop. make sure it is at a busy time where other players are present. Take your time (but don't hog the table overlong if players are waiting for one to open up) and discuss the pros and cons with your buddy (or the store owner). People listen and trust me, you will have an audience before your game is over of people who are at the very least interested in checking out and looking at the models. I have YET to see a shop owner who would not put you on their schedule and advertise it if you speak with them about it because it brings customers into the store and the store owner will usually be more than happy to keep track of an ongoing FW order (adding their own purchases onto it) and calling it in/being the pick up point.

the point I'm 'pushing" is that by exposing players to it in a positive manner, showing them firsthand how fun it can be (maybe leaving the pages where it shows that it is official where they will "notice" it without hammering them with it, the players wont care if it is legal or not. So long as there is a set standard of rules for them to see for it in black and white so they don't have to argue and hash them out, they just. will. not. care. if it is legal or not. they will want to play with itbecause it is fun and the models are cool. Then, the shop owner can post that they are legal when the locals start asing him/her.

of course, you will always have a few hardcore ant-FW people but hey, you cant reach everyone. They will either come around or find fewer and fewer opponants. And if you are desperate and they are the only one handy, you can always play a game without it to keep your hand in for tourneys (unless your able to talk the local TO into allowing it (that might come after you woo the majority of the local players)..

I hadn't even thought of the terrain pieces that they've made, those are also great I will agree, although I haven't been able to get any of them yet. I do want to mix and match and get some of those board pieces to start building up an at-home game board.

Mechanicum, I really hope that they continue to flesh those units out. I'm very happy with where it's at right now with the Magos and the big beasties.. I'm hoping they release Skitarii next. I'd love to see an army of them.

Then, the shop owner can post that they are legal when the locals start asing him/her.

A shop owner would have to be stupid to support an outside source of models for his customers. IF he doesn't somehow sell FW himself , what does he gain from people buying it ? people will just cherry pick the best models from FW , using the cash they would normaly spend on ally or their own army and give their cash to FW and not him .

Makumba wrote:
A shop owner would have to be stupid to support an outside source of models for his customers. IF he doesn't somehow sell FW himself , what does he gain from people buying it ? people will just cherry pick the best models from FW , using the cash they would normaly spend on ally or their own army and give their cash to FW and not him.

That's a little extreme:

1. You're sort of saying a shop owner won't allow anything that isn't bought in his store. I doubt there are too many draconian store owners out there chasing customers away for daring to bring in FW models.
2. Cherry picking the best models from FW? To what end? Get one over on the store owner? Doesn't seem realistic.

I have seen even small stores get ahold of FW stuff. I bought one of the chaos symbols from a small store you could barely turn around in. of course, the store owner talks to his/her customers (the successful ones) and gauges what the customers like and can be the central point of the "order. That means that out of a 1500 order, he/she can put in a portion of it to buy things that they can put on the shelf for sale. I'll tell ya what, I would MUCH rather pay an extra $5 for a tank if I can get it now than have to go through months of back and forth and backouts amongst other players comprising an order ourselves and then waiting for delivery in hopes that what I ordered will have been in stock.
Besides, anyone who has been to a shop that uses/has FW in stock will tell you that it is a boon that adds revenue. For one thing, it brings in new customers from a wider geographical area if word gets out you have it..

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Forgeworld fulfilled my greastest desire, a DKoK Grenadier army list.

FW are in the process of fulfilling my greatest desire - a full range of Mechanicum models!

Can't wait at all. Adeptus Mechanicus come to meeeee

Add to the list the new escalation supplement and then suddenly you have an excuse to break out those wonderful Forgeworld superheavies without having to go full Apocalypse! Gives me an excuse to finally purchase the Valdor and Minotaur! Not to mention the fact that I can now deploy my CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT!

Unit1126PLL wrote:Well, see, the problem with this argument is that the fluff for the Avenger did retcon it, by saying that the Sisters need to call upon the Imperial Navy for air support. If you don't like that retcon, it's fine, the fluff is malleable. But to say that Forge World is wrong to retcon the fluff because the fluff hasn't been retconned is nonsensical.

You are both correct and incorrect.

Forge World is not "wrong" to follow a different interpretation - but at the same time it is a different interpretation, written by a different studio in different publications. For it to qualify as a retcon this would require an overarching continuity to exist in the first place, which just isn't the case. GW will probably just ignore this, much like they ignored the idea of there being SoB Orders with blue robes (IA vol.2) and instead continue sticking to black, white and red.

All that some(?) people are saying is that they don't like FW's interpretation, which really is just a matter of interpretation and/or personal preferences, just like some people don't like something in a novel or even a Codex.

Peregrine wrote:So what exactly do you think SoB use for air support? Have they ever been given fluff that includes their own dedicated air support, while even marines have to ask the navy for help sometimes? And no, "they don't have air support" isn't an option if they want to participate in 40k battles outside of special SoB-only scenario missions.

Personally? I'd vote for Valkyrie drop ships, Lightning fighters, Aquila shuttles and Argus landers, if only because I've already seen those in various outsourced material (the Soulstorm computer game and some BL novels). I like the designs, and think they'd fit the role they would have to fill.

And Marines having to ask the Navy? For space superiority, maybe, but certainly not for basic air-to-ground support, which is the only thing that matters for the tabletop.

I believe there's a lot of people exaggerating the Navy's monopoly as presented in GW's books somewhat. The Imperial Guard is completely dependent on the Navy for sure, and since the IG is the Imperium's largest and most important military body, this makes this relationship particularly obvious and well documented in the setting. However, looking further, we've also seen GW writing about the Inquisition having its own ships, the Adeptus Mechanicus, hell even the Arbites space cops have their own fleets...

Aside from consistency to the Codex Imperialis and its original mention of SoB fleets as well as simply fitting to current fluff (who exactly allows the Seraphim to deep-strike? and if the Ministorum kept the SoB to remain independent of the Guard would they not also want to remain independent of the Navy?), this question also becomes important when you consider how often the SoB seem to act independently of other Imperial organisations, and even against other Imperial organisations - or do you think that, for example, the Navy backed their invasion of Fenris?


... but that really should be its own thread, I guess. Apologies for so much off-topic. When it comes to Sororitas, I could blather all day.

 EVIL INC wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

So you keep mentioning demonstrations games. How do you propose people do that who play in areas where people unanimiously refuse to even entertain FW being played because they think it's "unofficial" or "not legal"? This is a problem that can't always be solved by playing demo games you know. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's just one that isn't applicable 100% of the time and I think you fail to recognize that in favor of pushing that constantly.

I have YET to see anyplace where 100% of the people refuse to even look at a FW models. Pretty much any shop in the country will be more than happy to let you use yours while the shopowner uses their own (most shops have least one on display. if no one locally has any, play one of your buddies who has some at the shop. make sure it is at a busy time where other players are present. Take your time (but don't hog the table overlong if players are waiting for one to open up) and discuss the pros and cons with your buddy (or the store owner). People listen and trust me, you will have an audience before your game is over of people who are at the very least interested in checking out and looking at the models. I have YET to see a shop owner who would not put you on their schedule and advertise it if you speak with them about it because it brings customers into the store and the store owner will usually be more than happy to keep track of an ongoing FW order (adding their own purchases onto it) and calling it in/being the pick up point.

Just because you haven't seen it, it doesn't mean such places don't exist. It's like claiming dentists aren't real just because you haven't seen one.

We've had many reports of players in past FW threads who say their club has banned all FW (and that's not even counting store owners who ban FW models despite the fact they can make money on paints, terrain, and all the non-FW stuff you need for the army, like vehicles. Reduced sales from someone are better than no sales at all from someone). It's a real issue where you have people who absolutely refuse to deal with it because of the idea they've created that it's "not GW", "not Official" or "not legal". These are things some people need the ammunition to get past first before they can even consider demo games, especially if they're the only "pro-FW" player in the group. I'm not saying they need to browbeat it into people but they need to have the points to raise to counter those arguments to gain any ground to push on further with.

Believe it or not, I get what you're saying. I just know from the threads of the past that this problem isn't always so easily solved (if it was then just explaining it on Dakka would have swung the entire community over to being pro-FW once that was cleared up but we still get some people who refuse to budge and will argue everything under the sun and shift goal posts everytime you can find any "proof" that fulfills their conditions).

likewise, Just because you have not seen clubs or stores that allow FW models does not mean they don't exist.
I never said it was easy. heck, without direct GW support, it will be an uphill battle. However, I feel and have always felt that in general people are "good" and that making an effort to appeal to them and expose FW to them in a positive way so that they will WANT to use the models will win the over faster than just telling them it is legal (in past threads, I used extreme "never happen" examples to prove this point and people purposely took it literally to support their strawman arguments). If they WANT to play you you wont have to tell them it is legal because they just wont care. They will no longer feel that they are "forced to play you" or "have to play you" (read these figuratively as that is how I hae always meant it. only using the literal meaning in the never happens examples to prove the point) out of duty or pressure or responsibility.

years ago before being exposed to the models, I too thought that it was the rich man's overpowered more money = win stuff. I will admit that I used to be one of "those guys". I was wrong in my thinking and am glad tohave been proven wong. now, years later, I fully understand that stuff in the codexes can be totally broken so a rich person does not have to buy FW to win. They can just buy 3 riptides. why then, is FW still so popular? Because the models are simply amazing. The rules are also not as unbalanced as many of the things in the codeses and it expands the modeling and painting possibilities to new horizons.

I have yet to meet a person who will not allow you to use FW counts as (contemptor dread as a normal dread) or DKok as normal guard and so forth. Even when I used to be anti-FW, I did not care about that. I was only afraid of the "overpower rules" that I thought came with the models.I know these people likely exist, but I feel that they are in a minority.

How to get everyone to enjoy the new horizons FW gives to you... I don't know. Some people will never be reached no matter what. The best Ican say is to reach who you can and always put forward how much fun it is, the new options it opens up and be generous with your kindness. This doesn't mean you cant let them know the stuff is "legal of course, it just means that the 'this is legal' approach alone I don't think will work. The carrot is always better than the stick. lol

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I am sure that you (or whoever else) is not going in to clubs and shops strongarm style and I am also sure that you aren't super strongselling the stuff (I'm sure you know they type of annoying salesman im talking about lol). Reading through this thread and the other, the main point you guys bring up is that it is legal while appearing to gloss over the means that I am pointing out.as not being relevant or as relevant. I'm sure that actually 'in the shop' your more than willing to play using the models and probably more than willing to let others check out the rules/models (what gamer isn't happy to show off their stuff). The point is that a lot of the gamers who are anti-FW come to the internet forums as well and read through these threads. I used to after I learned to use a computer back in 99 ans had not been exposed to FW yet. How they see the pro-FW people here can influence how they view FW stuff too. In many of the posts, they will see the its legal arguments combined with who owns what company what are subsidariesand so forth and think 'so what". I think that even when addressing the issue online in forums, stressing the fun of the stuff more than the legalities of the stuf is important. We sometimes forget that 'here" we have the very people we are talking about 'converting' as an audience.

Makumba wrote:
AV14 immune to melta , IWND procing on +4 , PotMS . totaly easy to kill and what am I suppose to do with two vanquishers against all other armies?

So since when does the Achilles have melta immunity? The rule for ferromantic invulnerability is:

Ferromantic Invulnerability: The hull of the Achilles has been specially constructed to resist even the most determined assault and is almost preternaturally resilient. As a result, the Land Raider Achilles is not subject to the particular effects of the Lance and Melta special rules by attacks made against it. In addition it reduces the effects of all rolls on the damage chart made against it (other than by Destroyer type weaponry), by -1

I have underlined the specific point that is in contention here. The Achilles is not subject to the particular effects of the Lance and Melta special rules. It doesn't say not subject to those weapons, just their special rules. Thus a lance weapon doesn't get the increase on the damage table roll and neither get extra penetration dice beyond the normal. Was the achilles changed in the newest IA apocalypse book or something because as far as the original rules as written go the tank has no immunity against Lance and Melta weapons, their special rules just don't apply?

Skriker

Skriker wrote:Was the achilles changed in the newest IA apocalypse book or something

Oh, right, this is also part of the brighter side of forgeworld. Unencumbered by the slow codex system and with no standardized way of distributing rules, the combination of parts of new books superseding parts of old books (and then FAQs, updates, and DLC, presumably) will mean that nobody will know what the rules for anything are anymore.

... which will mean that everybody will have to buy every new book that comes out to have any ability to know the rules for the game. I'm surprised GW hasn't phased this in to regular 40k. Oh wait... supplements...

Actually all the new FW books have their table of content for free on the website and the pdf updates are free as well...same website. So you don't HAVE to buy anything.

Skriker - when people talk about 'melta immunity', they usually mean 'immune to the extra dice'. They're just being imprecise because the Avatar as been overshadowed for so long.

 Ailaros wrote:

Skriker wrote:Was the achilles changed in the newest IA apocalypse book or something

Oh, right, this is also part of the brighter side of forgeworld. Unencumbered by the slow codex system and with no standardized way of distributing rules, the combination of parts of new books superseding parts of old books (and then FAQs, updates, and DLC, presumably) will mean that nobody will know what the rules for anything are anymore.

... which will mean that everybody will have to buy every new book that comes out to have any ability to know the rules for the game. I'm surprised GW hasn't phased this in to regular 40k. Oh wait... supplements...

Get over it Ailaros. I asked the question because I do not have the original IA volume that the Achilles was included in, nor do I have the newest Apocalypse volume. The Achilles actually didn't change and is not the newest Apocalypse book. I have since checked. That said when given the opportunity Forgeworld does update rules for units in new volumes where appropriate. Some of their IA volumes are rather long in the tooth and need to be updated to get in sync with version 6 of the game. Many of the Imperial Armour books are old enough to be based off of codecies that are now multiple versions out of date. Also forgeworld addresses complaints when they update a book as well which is why a number of units in the new Apocalypse book have changes to abilities, stats and costs. What exactly is wrong with updating old information? Nothing.

Skriker

Skriker said:

When given the opportunity Forgeworld does update rules for units in new volumes where appropriate. Some of their IA volumes are rather long in the tooth and need to be updated to get in sync with version 6 of the game. Many of the Imperial Armour books are old enough to be based off of codecies that are now multiple versions out of date. Also forgeworld addresses complaints when they update a book as well which is why a number of units in the new Apocalypse book have changes to abilities, stats and costs. What exactly is wrong with updating old information? Nothing.

Spot on, have an exalt.

People do know they can email FW and ask if their book has the most current rules so they don't have to buy anything blindly, right?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
People do know they can email FW and ask if their book has the most current rules so they don't have to buy anything blindly, right?

I also recently spoke with the folks over there and they are in process of having firstly a list of where to find the most up to date rules for a given model, and also eventually adding links to those books in every listing so there will be a little less guess work involved in the future. Sadly they didn't have an ETA for when any of it would be implemented. Would definitely make things much easier.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
People do know they can email FW and ask if their book has the most current rules so they don't have to buy anything blindly, right?

I also recently spoke with the folks over there and they are in process of having firstly a list of where to find the most up to date rules for a given model, and also eventually adding links to those books in every listing so there will be a little less guess work involved in the future. Sadly they didn't have an ETA for when any of it would be implemented. Would definitely make things much easier.

Skriker

When I asked about it they said after IA2v2 came out. So in the next month or two I'd guess.

I can vouch for the quality of the models. I got a spartan assault tank and fire raptor recently and they are very nice sculpts. I brought the unpainted, unassembled Spartan into my FLGS over the weekend and had quite an audience.

The difference in quality of the fluff is astounding. IA Apoc is terrific fun to read and reminds of what I liked about 40k about 10 years back.

IA 12 is particularly good, bit light on fluff compared to some of the earlier books but full of rules, scenarios and other goodness.

The rule books are more expensive but they do come as a quality product.

FW offer a far more diverse variety to 40k and 30k would be nothing without them but some aged 80's metal models and a makeshift set of rules.

I echo what looky likey says - IA12 is a great book. Plenty of decent artwork showing storm eagles assaulting a necron tomb world and the DKOK fighting built up areas and underground.

I have to say I was shocked by FW prices but after getting some books and models from them it felt like they were... worth it.
The First HH book was by far the best GW thing I have ever seen and was pure unrelenting awesome. It was so fleshed out in every aspect it felt weird to use my normal SM again.
But product availability is a MAJOR issue.

I think the background and stories they write about the 40k Universe feel less... silly. They come across as more "gritty" to me than the stuff in the Codexes.

So I would say FW also offers some amazing background and setpieces for the 40k universe. I feel like they make it more "realistic". If such a thing could be said about this silly universe we all play in.

 cvtuttle wrote:
I think the background and stories they write about the 40k Universe feel less... silly. They come across as more "gritty" to me than the stuff in the Codexes.

So I would say FW also offers some amazing background and setpieces for the 40k universe. I feel like they make it more "realistic". If such a thing could be said about this silly universe we all play in.

I love FW lists, much more freedom usually. Hell the HH stuff are the most balanced army lists GW has ever come out with. Fire Ward and put the FW guys in charge of writing codices.

That and the models are usually beautiful. I am finishing up my marine army to sell it so I can buy more HH stuff.

Col. Dash wrote:
I love FW lists, much more freedom usually. Hell the HH stuff are the most balanced army lists GW has ever come out with. Fire Ward and put the FW guys in charge of writing codices.

That and the models are usually beautiful. I am finishing up my marine army to sell it so I can buy more HH stuff.

Yeah I was surprised by how the points costs and rules made SENSE for once. And I mean all of them. Also Assault Marines as troops is very nice as is Storm Eagles being infinitely more useful than storm Ravens.

People complaining that they're bored of playing SW/DA/BA/C:SM and then refusing to play the FW chapters because they use FW rules...

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
People complaining that they're bored of playing SW/DA/BA/C:SM and then refusing to play the FW chapters because they use FW rules...

I still don't get why there is such a big controversy surrounding how legal FW stuff is.

 sing your life wrote:
I'm thinking the Mortis dread's anti-flier abilities are going to be a boon for competitive DA.

I was thinking this same thing this Saturday. I have a feeling that a mortis dread will be creeping into my DA soon.