So what's a really good stand in for a Reaver Titan?
The cost for one on Forgeworld is unbelievable and there's a surprising lack of good Scratch builds on Ebay currently.
If you know a good Scratch build recipe requiring little other than time and patience I'd like that even more.
ThePrimordial wrote: So what's a really good stand in for a Reaver Titan?
The cost for one on Forgeworld is unbelievable and there's a surprising lack of good Scratch builds on Ebay currently.
If you know a good Scratch build recipe requiring little other than time and patience I'd like that even more.
Go buy a 12' Mechagodzilla figure from Bandai. That should do it.
Very descriptive.
Is there a guide online or anything?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Titan Manifactorum has a good looking warlord that's not too horribly costed.
Unfortunately they're on the "building" part of their time routine right now.
And the plans for a Reaver Titan specifically. Although you might have to modify or change them based on how you want it look/materials used.
https://app.box.com/shared/eha70afaud
And the plans for a Reaver Titan specifically. Although you might have to modify or change them based on how you want it look/materials used.
https://app.box.com/shared/eha70afaud
Just set your scale and good luck!
Found the same file when I expanded my search. Thanks for the links none the less.
What should I use for maximum toughness?
I highly doubt you'll find anything with the size and bulk of a real Reaver for much less than the FW asking price - especially anything that looks half-decent. What loadout are you planning for it? That may impact the selection of viable models.
I think realistically it's either save up a while or build it with plasticard, but you probably won't find templates any better than the ones already posted since it's a very complex model and a lot of the detailing will come down to what you can do with the materials you have. What scratchbuilding experience do you have previously?
It's one of the single most overcosted pieces of plastic I've seen in my life.
I remember when Tyrgons were $20 a piece only 3 years ago. If I do get one I'll wait until we come upon another age like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote: I highly doubt you'll find anything with the size and bulk of a real Reaver for much less than the FW asking price - especially anything that looks half-decent. What loadout are you planning for it? That may impact the selection of viable models.
I think realistically it's either save up a while or build it with plasticard, but you probably won't find templates any better than the ones already posted since it's a very complex model and a lot of the detailing will come down to what you can do with the materials you have. What scratchbuilding experience do you have previously?
ThePrimordial wrote: It's one of the single most overcosted pieces of plastic I've seen in my life.
I remember when Tyrgons were $20 a piece only 3 years ago. If I do get one I'll wait until we come upon another age like that.
You're never going to get a cheap Reaver. It's a huge resin model with an amazing level of detail. And the simple fact is you just have to pay a lot of money for big resin models.
ThePrimordial wrote: It's one of the single most overcosted pieces of plastic I've seen in my life.
I remember when Tyrgons were $20 a piece only 3 years ago. If I do get one I'll wait until we come upon another age like that.
You're never going to get a cheap Reaver. It's a huge resin model with an amazing level of detail. And the simple fact is you just have to pay a lot of money for big resin models.
I'd also just get the Warhound Titan instead. Sure, the Reaver's cool, but it's exceptionally expensive and simply large. Unless you want to use it as a pretty display, I'd imagine it'd be a to transport and risk being damaged to take it anywhere. I imagine that the warhound would be more manageable than a Reaver for assembly, painting, and transport.
It isn't overcosted, it took 18 months to sculpt, is covered in exquisite detail and represents several kilos of high-quality resin in dozens of components. It's expensive because it's a masterpiece, and right now it just sounds like you went to spam 8 strength D pie plates without having to buy to a titan.
Its expensive because it was not created using modern methods and techniques, but that is another story.
Now having said that....if this is because you want a titan, and think it would bring your apoc games to a whole new level and would rather build than buy one for the challenge of it, then I think his is great...
But if you are trying to spam d weapons....I would not bother.
Reavers are not that durable for experienced players to deal with if they have equal amounts of D weapons (a couple of necron pylons will roast it).
But back to building one....
As far as materials in building one, I would build a frame first, basically a giant armature for the parts.
Then use the plans you have and make the pieces from heavy duty plasticard (or whatever) and mount them.
I will say....there is some logic to getting a warhound instead...my buddy has a reaver and two warhounds, and the warhounds get a lot more table time as there are only so many games he can run the reaver in.
I don't knw of any good substitues for the Reaver, but you could definitely think about taking one of Dreamforge's Leviathan Crusaders or Mortises as a Warhound. Considering that they both cost less than a third the price of a Warhound, it is worth every penny. Plus it just looks so damn cool.
Even bootleg titans cost a gak ton. Don't expect any good looking replacement to be both cheap and easy. You can probably do one or the other if you have the money or the talent.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: Even bootleg titans cost a gak ton. Don't expect any good looking replacement to be both cheap and easy. You can probably do one or the other if you have the money or the talent.
Counts-as Warhound, 110 bucks at full price. Not exactly a ton for a nearly ten inch tall plastic model.
MIni MIehm wrote: I don't knw of any good substitues for the Reaver, but you could definitely think about taking one of Dreamforge's Leviathan Crusaders or Mortises as a Warhound. Considering that they both cost less than a third the price of a Warhound, it is worth every penny. Plus it just looks so damn cool.
Too bad they don't actually look anything like a Warhound and therefore aren't an appropriate counts-as model.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cvtuttle wrote: Any scratch build you try to do will almost certainly pale in comparison. Especially when you see the amount of time it will take you to create one.
This. If you scratchbuild your own titan you're either going to be spending months/years working on it (and time is money), or you're going to end up with a poorly detailed "model" that is little more than a roughly titan-shaped pile of scrap plastic.
MIni MIehm wrote: I don't knw of any good substitues for the Reaver, but you could definitely think about taking one of Dreamforge's Leviathan Crusaders or Mortises as a Warhound. Considering that they both cost less than a third the price of a Warhound, it is worth every penny. Plus it just looks so damn cool.
Too bad they don't actually look anything like a Warhound and therefore aren't an appropriate counts-as model.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cvtuttle wrote: Any scratch build you try to do will almost certainly pale in comparison. Especially when you see the amount of time it will take you to create one.
This. If you scratchbuild your own titan you're either going to be spending months/years working on it (and time is money), or you're going to end up with a poorly detailed "model" that is little more than a roughly titan-shaped pile of scrap plastic.
As long as it looks cool and stands to the right size, I would allow it. Especially if you can give me some decent fluff for why it looks like that. I'm planning on doing it, and I'm kitbashing a big honking T-35 into a counts-as Baneblade, because I'm more worried about the model looking cool and being roughly the right size than I am about buying someone's Battledog Colossus war mech because it looks so much like a Warhound.
The guy at my FLGS uses Gundams. He has some Bandai snap together kits he really loves and they are just about the same size. The Zakus almost work well for this purpose, he has the arms / fists magnetized and and they would look good if the plastic wasn't so shiny.
ThePrimordial wrote: It's one of the single most overcosted pieces of plastic I've seen in my life.
I remember when Tyrgons were $20 a piece only 3 years ago. If I do get one I'll wait until we come upon another age like that.
You're never going to get a cheap Reaver. It's a huge resin model with an amazing level of detail. And the simple fact is you just have to pay a lot of money for big resin models.
I have to agree, titans should be models you invested tons of effort and money in.
EyeOfDC wrote: The death it causes is more satisfying if caused by a real..reaver..#chaostraitorlyf.
This man, and cvtuttle + Peregrin have it right. If you want to play Apocalypse stuff, get the right model.
I would have to disagree with the lot of you. I plan on purchsing a Leviathan Mortis in the near future, painting it up in my Chaos black legion colors, and fielding it as a Chaos warhound titan. If Peregrin or anyone else has a problem with it, they just won't have the pleasure of gaming with an incredibly detailed and beautifully painted model...their loss.
I have no problem with "counts as" models, so long as the size is "comparable", it's painted and based correctly, the weapons are identified in detail prior to the game, and you have the current rules on hand for reference. Anything beyond that would be asking too much of an opponent and taking an "elitist" attitude toward a game meant to be played for fun.
ThePrimordial wrote: It's one of the single most overcosted pieces of plastic I've seen in my life.
I remember when Tyrgons were $20 a piece only 3 years ago. If I do get one I'll wait until we come upon another age like that.
You're never going to get a cheap Reaver. It's a huge resin model with an amazing level of detail. And the simple fact is you just have to pay a lot of money for big resin models.
I'd also just get the Warhound Titan instead. Sure, the Reaver's cool, but it's exceptionally expensive and simply large. Unless you want to use it as a pretty display, I'd imagine it'd be a to transport and risk being damaged to take it anywhere. I imagine that the warhound would be more manageable than a Reaver for assembly, painting, and transport.
Warhounds also happen to be ludicrously easy to scratch build.
EyeOfDC wrote: The death it causes is more satisfying if caused by a real..reaver..#chaostraitorlyf.
This man, and cvtuttle + Peregrin have it right. If you want to play Apocalypse stuff, get the right model.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Apocalypse should be the game type where you are encouraged to create your own models and rules. That opinion belongs in Escalation.
Not everyone can either afford, or may choose not to spend the money on an extreme purchase as this.
I have a silly amount put into this hobby, but I have no problem if someone puts effort into it - is better than the guy who tried to by his way into a good army, but never paints it.
But back to the OP:
Sadly, these things take much more than time and patience...they take quite a bit of skill.
I would suggest trying a lot of simpler scratchbuild projects first - maybe some bunkers, a landing pad, or a bastion.
See how well you can work with the materials, and the techniques.
(go to google, type in scratch built bastion, read and read some more).
I have built a lot of stuff (mostly terrain, but a few custom models) and have to say that I would not suggest a titan as a first project.
davethepak wrote: Not everyone can either afford, or may choose not to spend the money on an extreme purchase as this.
If the person is too poor or cheap to afford the model, the question is should they have it? I say no! As there is nothing more insulting to the player base than a person who shows up with a scratch built model, while the other gamer's spent their hard earned money on the REAL model. I find it strange you would rather accept fake knock offs but not a unpainted army of GENUINE WYSIWYG models. I don't care how good your scratch build looks, if it didnt come from FW its not a reaver. This is the main reason I'm anti-scratch build, as all scrach builders are is people who want the best guns with none of the cost associated with having the best guns. These are the same people who think they are entitled to GW answering their every beck and call. LOL get real people understand this guys. YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL!
All I ask my opponent is to have the correct model if it has a model from GW. However if there is no model to buy then by all means scratch build.
davethepak wrote: Not everyone can either afford, or may choose not to spend the money on an extreme purchase as this.
If the person is too poor or cheap to afford the model, the question is should they have it? I say no! As there is nothing more insulting to the player base than a person who shows up with a scratch built model, while the other gamer's spent their hard earned money on the REAL model. I find it strange you would rather accept fake knock offs but not a unpainted army of GENUINE WYSIWYG models. I don't care how good your scratch build looks, if it didnt come from FW its not a reaver. This is the main reason I'm anti-scratch build, as all scrach builders are is people who want the best guns with none of the cost associated with having the best guns. These are the same people who think they are entitled to GW answering their every beck and call. LOL get real people understand this guys. YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL!
All I ask my opponent is to have the correct model if it has a model from GW. However if there is no model to buy then by all means scratch build.
Wow, this makes me embarrassed to be part of a gaming system where the models that you play with are determined solely by your economic status....I almost feel sorry for people like this....almost.
I'm guessing that Gitsmasher is the type of person that kicks a homeless guy for daring to take up space on the sidewalk. lol
davethepak wrote: Not everyone can either afford, or may choose not to spend the money on an extreme purchase as this.
If the person is too poor or cheap to afford the model, the question is should they have it? I say no! As there is nothing more insulting to the player base than a person who shows up with a scratch built model, while the other gamer's spent their hard earned money on the REAL model. I find it strange you would rather accept fake knock offs but not a unpainted army of GENUINE WYSIWYG models. I don't care how good your scratch build looks, if it didnt come from FW its not a reaver. This is the main reason I'm anti-scratch build, as all scrach builders are is people who want the best guns with none of the cost associated with having the best guns. These are the same people who think they are entitled to GW answering their every beck and call. LOL get real people understand this guys. YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL!
All I ask my opponent is to have the correct model if it has a model from GW. However if there is no model to buy then by all means scratch build.
Wow, this makes me embarrassed to be part of a gaming system where the models that you play with are determined solely by your economic status....I almost feel sorry for people like this....almost.
If your economic status doesnt allow you to keep up with flurry of codex releases we have seen the past year I ask should you even be playing Warhammer? I'm asking a valid question. If you cant afford to play should you be playing? There are plenty of other things to keep you occupied that are less costly. Lord knows I've walked away from this hobby many times in the past when my economic status changed from various lay offs...etc
Also.
Welcome to the world we live in. Enjoy your stay. I sure as hell am
davethepak wrote: Not everyone can either afford, or may choose not to spend the money on an extreme purchase as this.
If the person is too poor or cheap to afford the model, the question is should they have it? I say no! As there is nothing more insulting to the player base than a person who shows up with a scratch built model, while the other gamer's spent their hard earned money on the REAL model. I find it strange you would rather accept fake knock offs but not a unpainted army of GENUINE WYSIWYG models. I don't care how good your scratch build looks, if it didnt come from FW its not a reaver. This is the main reason I'm anti-scratch build, as all scrach builders are is people who want the best guns with none of the cost associated with having the best guns. These are the same people who think they are entitled to GW answering their every beck and call. LOL get real people understand this guys. YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL!
All I ask my opponent is to have the correct model if it has a model from GW. However if there is no model to buy then by all means scratch build.
Wow, this makes me embarrassed to be part of a gaming system where the models that you play with are determined solely by your economic status....I almost feel sorry for people like this....almost.
If your economic status doesnt allow you to keep up with flurry of codex releases we have seen the past year I ask should you even be playing Warhammer? I'm asking a valid question. If you cant afford to play should you be playing? There are plenty of other things to keep you occupied that are less costly. Lord knows I've walked away from this hobby many times in the past when my economic status changed from various lay offs...etc
Also.
Welcome to the world we live in. Enjoy your stay. I sure as hell am
davethepak wrote: Not everyone can either afford, or may choose not to spend the money on an extreme purchase as this.
If the person is too poor or cheap to afford the model, the question is should they have it? I say no! As there is nothing more insulting to the player base than a person who shows up with a scratch built model, while the other gamer's spent their hard earned money on the REAL model. I find it strange you would rather accept fake knock offs but not a unpainted army of GENUINE WYSIWYG models. I don't care how good your scratch build looks, if it didnt come from FW its not a reaver. This is the main reason I'm anti-scratch build, as all scrach builders are is people who want the best guns with none of the cost associated with having the best guns. These are the same people who think they are entitled to GW answering their every beck and call. LOL get real people understand this guys. YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL!
All I ask my opponent is to have the correct model if it has a model from GW. However if there is no model to buy then by all means scratch build.
So your saying you should pay to win? That if you are poor but have talent that you should lose? You dissuade creativity entirely with this statement. Players like you ruin the game and embody the depressingly commercial GW ideals.
XXXX
There are always going to be "those" people that don't like to share "their" hobby with the lower class, It seems strange to me that we as a people look up to the "upper class" for inspiration on how to act, when clearly all they know in the world is how to keep the lower classes under their boot.
davethepak wrote: Not everyone can either afford, or may choose not to spend the money on an extreme purchase as this.
If the person is too poor or cheap to afford the model, the question is should they have it? I say no! As there is nothing more insulting to the player base than a person who shows up with a scratch built model, while the other gamer's spent their hard earned money on the REAL model. I find it strange you would rather accept fake knock offs but not a unpainted army of GENUINE WYSIWYG models. I don't care how good your scratch build looks, if it didnt come from FW its not a reaver. This is the main reason I'm anti-scratch build, as all scrach builders are is people who want the best guns with none of the cost associated with having the best guns. These are the same people who think they are entitled to GW answering their every beck and call. LOL get real people understand this guys. YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL!
All I ask my opponent is to have the correct model if it has a model from GW. However if there is no model to buy then by all means scratch build.
So your saying you should pay to win? That if you are poor but have talent that you should lose? You dissuade creativity entirely with this statement. Players like you ruin the game and embody the depressingly commercial GW ideals.
XXXX
There are always going to be "those" people that don't like to share "their" hobby with the lower class, It seems strange to me that we as a people look up to the "upper class" for inspiration on how to act, when clearly all they know in the world is how to keep the lower classes under their boot.
I like to name those types "scum"
XXXX
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah this is getting a lock
davethepak wrote: Not everyone can either afford, or may choose not to spend the money on an extreme purchase as this.
If the person is too poor or cheap to afford the model, the question is should they have it? I say no! As there is nothing more insulting to the player base than a person who shows up with a scratch built model, while the other gamer's spent their hard earned money on the REAL model. I find it strange you would rather accept fake knock offs but not a unpainted army of GENUINE WYSIWYG models. I don't care how good your scratch build looks, if it didnt come from FW its not a reaver. This is the main reason I'm anti-scratch build, as all scrach builders are is people who want the best guns with none of the cost associated with having the best guns. These are the same people who think they are entitled to GW answering their every beck and call. LOL get real people understand this guys. YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL!
All I ask my opponent is to have the correct model if it has a model from GW. However if there is no model to buy then by all means scratch build.
Wow, this makes me embarrassed to be part of a gaming system where the models that you play with are determined solely by your economic status....I almost feel sorry for people like this....almost.
If your economic status doesnt allow you to keep up with flurry of codex releases we have seen the past year I ask should you even be playing Warhammer? I'm asking a valid question. If you cant afford to play should you be playing? There are plenty of other things to keep you occupied that are less costly. Lord knows I've walked away from this hobby many times in the past when my economic status changed from various lay offs...etc
Also.
Welcome to the world we live in. Enjoy your stay. I sure as hell am
I'm just going to set you on ignore...
XXXX
I'm not going to ignore you, Gitsmasher. Your wonderfully enlightening posts make me feel like a much better person.
davethepak wrote: Not everyone can either afford, or may choose not to spend the money on an extreme purchase as this.
If the person is too poor or cheap to afford the model, the question is should they have it? I say no! As there is nothing more insulting to the player base than a person who shows up with a scratch built model, while the other gamer's spent their hard earned money on the REAL model. I find it strange you would rather accept fake knock offs but not a unpainted army of GENUINE WYSIWYG models. I don't care how good your scratch build looks, if it didnt come from FW its not a reaver. This is the main reason I'm anti-scratch build, as all scrach builders are is people who want the best guns with none of the cost associated with having the best guns. These are the same people who think they are entitled to GW answering their every beck and call. LOL get real people understand this guys. YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL!
All I ask my opponent is to have the correct model if it has a model from GW. However if there is no model to buy then by all means scratch build.
So your saying you should pay to win? That if you are poor but have talent that you should lose? You dissuade creativity entirely with this statement. Players like you ruin the game and embody the depressingly commercial GW ideals.
XXXX
There are always going to be "those" people that don't like to share "their" hobby with the lower class, It seems strange to me that we as a people look up to the "upper class" for inspiration on how to act, when clearly all they know in the world is how to keep the lower classes under their boot.
I never said *not share* I asked if you cant afford to pay for the models should you be playing? How is that elitist? This is a real question that I wish most of the player base would ask themselves. As I honestly believe that some of the players shouldn't be playing. I sometimes wish *these* people would leave the hobby.
And this takes us to the laws of supply and demand. If all these people leave the hobby then GW will see an increase in supply but no demand, and when they realize its because not enough people can afford to play it will force GW to do 1 of 2 things. 1. lower prices, or keep prices the same but give a better value for their hard earned well deserved money(lord knows I would love this) to bring players back. Or 2. go out of business.
There are other alternatives.
Apparently you can get equally good looking ones made of better materials than Forgeworld with your choice of 3 weapons for $400. It's obviously a recast of Forgeworld stuff but it looks fabulous.
I ordered one a second ago. Should be building it and painting it in a week or so. Don't ask how.
That said. This is still an interesting topic, and I still want a second one.
ThePrimordial wrote: There are other alternatives.
Apparently you can get equally good looking ones made of better materials than Forgeworld with your choice of 3 weapons for $400. It's obviously a recast of Forgeworld stuff but it looks fabulous.
I ordered one a second ago. Should be building it and painting it in a week or so. Don't ask how.
That said. This is still an interesting topic, and I still want a second one.
Post some pics for us I always love to see Reavers being assembled/painted.
ThePrimordial wrote: There are other alternatives.
Apparently you can get equally good looking ones made of better materials than Forgeworld with your choice of 3 weapons for $400. It's obviously a recast of Forgeworld stuff but it looks fabulous.
I ordered one a second ago. Should be building it and painting it in a week or so. Don't ask how.
That said. This is still an interesting topic, and I still want a second one.
Post some pics for us I always love to see Reavers being assembled/painted.
davethepak wrote: Not everyone can either afford, or may choose not to spend the money on an extreme purchase as this.
If the person is too poor or cheap to afford the model, the question is should they have it? I say no! As there is nothing more insulting to the player base than a person who shows up with a scratch built model, while the other gamer's spent their hard earned money on the REAL model. I find it strange you would rather accept fake knock offs but not a unpainted army of GENUINE WYSIWYG models. I don't care how good your scratch build looks, if it didnt come from FW its not a reaver. This is the main reason I'm anti-scratch build, as all scrach builders are is people who want the best guns with none of the cost associated with having the best guns. These are the same people who think they are entitled to GW answering their every beck and call. LOL get real people understand this guys. YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL!
All I ask my opponent is to have the correct model if it has a model from GW. However if there is no model to buy then by all means scratch build.
As someone who owns a Forge World Warhound Titan I completely disagree with this. I would be happy to play my titan against a cardboard cut-out if my opponent wanted to try out their own superheavy. Yeah it would be cool if they bought the real model, but who am I to tell them what to do with their money? As long as it's similar in size and they explain to me the weapon loadout beforehand I would be happy.
Also, I have the money to buy the 'correct' model but don't always want to. Sometimes I don't like the GW one and want to use a FW counts as. Sometimes I fancy kitbashing. I don't think people should have the right to tell others the 'correct' way of playing.
I keep encouraging our Eldar player to take a Wraithknight as a counts as Revenant but he's not a fan of Escalation
davethepak wrote: Not everyone can either afford, or may choose not to spend the money on an extreme purchase as this.
If the person is too poor or cheap to afford the model, the question is should they have it? I say no! As there is nothing more insulting to the player base than a person who shows up with a scratch built model, while the other gamer's spent their hard earned money on the REAL model. I find it strange you would rather accept fake knock offs but not a unpainted army of GENUINE WYSIWYG models. I don't care how good your scratch build looks, if it didnt come from FW its not a reaver. This is the main reason I'm anti-scratch build, as all scrach builders are is people who want the best guns with none of the cost associated with having the best guns. These are the same people who think they are entitled to GW answering their every beck and call. LOL get real people understand this guys. YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL!
All I ask my opponent is to have the correct model if it has a model from GW. However if there is no model to buy then by all means scratch build.
As someone who owns a Forge World Warhound Titan I completely disagree with this. I would be happy to play my titan against a cardboard cut-out if my opponent wanted to try out their own superheavy. Yeah it would be cool if they bought the real model, but who am I to tell them what to do with their money? As long as it's similar in size and they explain to me the weapon loadout beforehand I would be happy.
Also, I have the money to buy the 'correct' model but don't always want to. Sometimes I don't like the GW one and want to use a FW counts as. Sometimes I fancy kitbashing. I don't think people should have the right to tell others the 'correct' way of playing.
I keep encouraging our Eldar player to take a Wraithknight as a counts as Revenant but he's not a fan of Escalation
davethepak wrote: Not everyone can either afford, or may choose not to spend the money on an extreme purchase as this.
If the person is too poor or cheap to afford the model, the question is should they have it? I say no! As there is nothing more insulting to the player base than a person who shows up with a scratch built model, while the other gamer's spent their hard earned money on the REAL model. I find it strange you would rather accept fake knock offs but not a unpainted army of GENUINE WYSIWYG models. I don't care how good your scratch build looks, if it didnt come from FW its not a reaver. This is the main reason I'm anti-scratch build, as all scrach builders are is people who want the best guns with none of the cost associated with having the best guns. These are the same people who think they are entitled to GW answering their every beck and call. LOL get real people understand this guys. YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL!
All I ask my opponent is to have the correct model if it has a model from GW. However if there is no model to buy then by all means scratch build.
As someone who owns a Forge World Warhound Titan I completely disagree with this. I would be happy to play my titan against a cardboard cut-out if my opponent wanted to try out their own superheavy. Yeah it would be cool if they bought the real model, but who am I to tell them what to do with their money? As long as it's similar in size and they explain to me the weapon loadout beforehand I would be happy.
Also, I have the money to buy the 'correct' model but don't always want to. Sometimes I don't like the GW one and want to use a FW counts as. Sometimes I fancy kitbashing. I don't think people should have the right to tell others the 'correct' way of playing.
I keep encouraging our Eldar player to take a Wraithknight as a counts as Revenant but he's not a fan of Escalation
davethepak wrote: Not everyone can either afford, or may choose not to spend the money on an extreme purchase as this.
If the person is too poor or cheap to afford the model, the question is should they have it? I say no! As there is nothing more insulting to the player base than a person who shows up with a scratch built model, while the other gamer's spent their hard earned money on the REAL model. I find it strange you would rather accept fake knock offs but not a unpainted army of GENUINE WYSIWYG models. I don't care how good your scratch build looks, if it didnt come from FW its not a reaver. This is the main reason I'm anti-scratch build, as all scrach builders are is people who want the best guns with none of the cost associated with having the best guns. These are the same people who think they are entitled to GW answering their every beck and call. LOL get real people understand this guys. YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL!
All I ask my opponent is to have the correct model if it has a model from GW. However if there is no model to buy then by all means scratch build.
As someone who owns a Forge World Warhound Titan I completely disagree with this. I would be happy to play my titan against a cardboard cut-out if my opponent wanted to try out their own superheavy. Yeah it would be cool if they bought the real model, but who am I to tell them what to do with their money? As long as it's similar in size and they explain to me the weapon loadout beforehand I would be happy.
Also, I have the money to buy the 'correct' model but don't always want to. Sometimes I don't like the GW one and want to use a FW counts as. Sometimes I fancy kitbashing. I don't think people should have the right to tell others the 'correct' way of playing.
I keep encouraging our Eldar player to take a Wraithknight as a counts as Revenant but he's not a fan of Escalation
You sir have earned the right to your opinion, unlike the whiners on this thread however.
Also can someone please answer this question?
If you cant afford to pay for the models should you be playing?
sub-zero wrote: Gitsmasher, thank you so much for making my point for me.
And may I ask which point?
Absolutely!! " unlike the whiners on this thread however. " This statement embodies the very essence of "elitism". Not only do you insult the us (lower class), but you completely dismiss us as having a valid opinion. That is the point that I was making all along, the fact that we normal human beings are forced to put up with an elitist society made up of privileged people such as yourself, who feel that money is the golden ticket to happiness and everyone else who doesn't meet your financial criteria is simply discounted as nothing more than the dirt that you scrape off of your boot. How's that?
Personally I'd have no issue with scratchbuilding, but if someone simply slapped a Gundam with extra weapons down on the table I'd be pretty pissed off. I own a FW Reaver and Warhound; the models require a level of attention I'd never reached before, and yet someone things that a Gundam or a cheap toy bought from the 99p store is a good stand-in. If you don't want to buy the model at least put the effort in to make a half-decent scratchbuild.
sub-zero wrote: Gitsmasher, thank you so much for making my point for me.
And may I ask which point?
Absolutely!! " unlike the whiners on this thread however. " This statement embodies the very essence of "elitism". Not only do you insult the us (lower class), but you completely dismiss us as having a valid opinion. That is the point that I was making all along, the fact that we normal human beings are forced to put up with an elitist society made up of privileged people such as yourself, who feel that money is the golden ticket to happiness and everyone else who doesn't meet your financial criteria is simply discounted as nothing more than the dirt that you scrape off of your boot. How's that?
I stand by my statement that whiners who can't come to terms with the fact that life isn't fair and that you can't have everything you want all at once, have no "valid opinion".
It seems you skipped over the part where I said I have walked away from this hobby when my economic status changed in the past. Want to know why?
It's because I understand this hobby ant cheap and that my money can be used on more productive things, like food, clothes, bills, and just keeping it in the bank.
If I'm a jerk fine. But I've seen too many good gaming clubs, and stores go out of business because of the whiners in this thread. You show up to play with your knock off cardboard models, play a game then not buy anything. You want lt use the facility for free but don't want to help with upkeep. No I'm not the elitist jerk. You are. At least I buy the correct models from the store and help SPREAD the wealth. Where as you probably stand there play and contribute nothing.
Build it, and do the best you can, quality people will respect you for it.
I will play you.
Oh and side note; forgeworld sales don't support your FLGS.
Just sayin.
Already bought a better made re-cast one for $400.
I like this attitude though. It's what the game is about.
I very much doubt it's better made.
XXXX
You will be very very surprised.
I would very much doubt it. Forge world use a relatively high quality resin. Smaller companies, especially recasters are likely using low quality materials to mass produce their products as cheap as possible. The massively lower price alone hints that the item is almost certainly not of the same quality. The fact that it is a recast at all suggests that the companies motives are probably not too healthy. Therefore it stands to reason for me to come to the conclusion that this item would very likely be of a lower quality.
Sure some independent companies use better materials, this wouldn't be one of them. Not if they are recasting another companies products.
Build it, and do the best you can, quality people will respect you for it.
I will play you.
Oh and side note; forgeworld sales don't support your FLGS.
Just sayin.
Already bought a better made re-cast one for $400.
I like this attitude though. It's what the game is about.
I very much doubt it's better made.
XXXX
You will be very very surprised.
I would very much doubt it. Forge world use a relatively high quality resin. Smaller companies, especially recasters are likely using low quality materials to mass produce their products as cheap as possible. The massively lower price alone hints that the item is almost certainly not of the same quality. The fact that it is a recast at all suggests that the companies motives are probably not too healthy. Therefore it stands to reason for me to come to the conclusion that this item would very likely be of a lower quality.
Sure some independent companies use better materials, this wouldn't be one of them. Not if they are recasting another companies products.
XXXX
1 year ago i would have said the same thing. anyways enough of this topic.
Build it, and do the best you can, quality people will respect you for it.
I will play you.
Oh and side note; forgeworld sales don't support your FLGS.
Just sayin.
Already bought a better made re-cast one for $400.
I like this attitude though. It's what the game is about.
I very much doubt it's better made.
XXXX
You will be very very surprised.
I would very much doubt it. Forge world use a relatively high quality resin. Smaller companies, especially recasters are likely using low quality materials to mass produce their products as cheap as possible. The massively lower price alone hints that the item is almost certainly not of the same quality. The fact that it is a recast at all suggests that the companies motives are probably not too healthy. Therefore it stands to reason for me to come to the conclusion that this item would very likely be of a lower quality.
Sure some independent companies use better materials, this wouldn't be one of them. Not if they are recasting another companies products.
XXXX
Or Forgeworld is overcharging out the ass.
Which is more likely out of the two?
Build it, and do the best you can, quality people will respect you for it.
I will play you.
Oh and side note; forgeworld sales don't support your FLGS.
Just sayin.
Already bought a better made re-cast one for $400.
I like this attitude though. It's what the game is about.
I very much doubt it's better made.
XXXX
You will be very very surprised.
I would very much doubt it. Forge world use a relatively high quality resin. Smaller companies, especially recasters are likely using low quality materials to mass produce their products as cheap as possible. The massively lower price alone hints that the item is almost certainly not of the same quality. The fact that it is a recast at all suggests that the companies motives are probably not too healthy. Therefore it stands to reason for me to come to the conclusion that this item would very likely be of a lower quality.
Sure some independent companies use better materials, this wouldn't be one of them. Not if they are recasting another companies products.
XXXX
Or Forgeworld is overcharging out the ass.
Which is more likely out of the two?
considering the terrors i have purchased from forge world i say they are over priced. End result is great but not worth the effort given the alternatives.
Build it, and do the best you can, quality people will respect you for it.
I will play you.
Oh and side note; forgeworld sales don't support your FLGS.
Just sayin.
Already bought a better made re-cast one for $400.
I like this attitude though. It's what the game is about.
I very much doubt it's better made.
XXXX
You will be very very surprised.
I would very much doubt it. Forge world use a relatively high quality resin. Smaller companies, especially recasters are likely using low quality materials to mass produce their products as cheap as possible. The massively lower price alone hints that the item is almost certainly not of the same quality. The fact that it is a recast at all suggests that the companies motives are probably not too healthy. Therefore it stands to reason for me to come to the conclusion that this item would very likely be of a lower quality.
Sure some independent companies use better materials, this wouldn't be one of them. Not if they are recasting another companies products.
XXXX
Or Forgeworld is overcharging out the ass.
Which is more likely out of the two?
Both. Forge world heinously overcharges but their stiff is still a big step up from everyone else. From GW in terms of sculpting form recasters the actual quality of the material.
Build it, and do the best you can, quality people will respect you for it.
I will play you.
Oh and side note; forgeworld sales don't support your FLGS.
Just sayin.
Already bought a better made re-cast one for $400.
I like this attitude though. It's what the game is about.
I very much doubt it's better made.
XXXX
You will be very very surprised.
I would very much doubt it. Forge world use a relatively high quality resin. Smaller companies, especially recasters are likely using low quality materials to mass produce their products as cheap as possible. The massively lower price alone hints that the item is almost certainly not of the same quality. The fact that it is a recast at all suggests that the companies motives are probably not too healthy. Therefore it stands to reason for me to come to the conclusion that this item would very likely be of a lower quality.
Sure some independent companies use better materials, this wouldn't be one of them. Not if they are recasting another companies products.
XXXX
Or Forgeworld is overcharging out the ass.
Which is more likely out of the two?
considering the terrors i have purchased from forge world i say they are over priced. End result is great but not worth the effort given the alternatives.
All the people bringing up the Dreamforge Leviathan as a viable option for someone looking for a REAVER proxy seem to be missing the point. And $100 for a Dreamforge is still expensive.
The one guy who thinks his recast is made from superior resin to Forge World is dreaming.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: All the people bringing up the Dreamforge Leviathan as a viable option for someone looking for a REAVER proxy seem to be missing the point. And $100 for a Dreamforge is still expensive.
The one guy who thinks his recast is made from superior resin to Forge World is dreaming.
have you seen recasts? They are superior if you dont buy from asians or online shops...
It is also impossible to have a recast that is higher quality than the master.
have you compared them before? You are wrong unless you buy from the wrong people.
They dont come cacked oin flashing. No need to wash off all the lubricant. The peices actually fit together without effort and its far cheaper. The only downside is the clear bits arent great SOMETIMES. But most will replace them because they are nice
davethepak wrote: Oh and side note; forgeworld sales don't support your FLGS.
Neither does scratchbuilding a titan.
Not that this really matters much, since a store gets "support" by selling a product that I want to buy, not because I feel like making a charity donation.
ThePrimordial wrote: Or Forgeworld is overcharging out the ass.
Which is more likely out of the two?
I don't know if Forgeworld "overcharges". I will say that unlike the recaster you bought from, Forge World has to pay for the research and development that went into that kit. Somewhere in Nottingham, there is a sculptor or more probably a team of sculptors spent a really long time making that kit, getting everything to fit, getting the molds made and - it's hard for me to say this with a straight face, but - working out quality issues with the molds so you could have a nice kit. All of this happens in a first world country to a person who has a safe work environment, a reasonable wage, and so on, for allegedly 18 months.
The recaster just has to make molds using child labor and whatever silicone and resin is the cheapest regardless of if it, say, gives off carcinogenic fumes or not (for example). They don't have to design anything, they don't have to pay taxes or issue returns or refunds or do any development and they can pay their workers pennies on the dollar.
So don't try and rationalize saving money by getting recast goods by saying "well, Forge World is overpriced". It cost them a lot of money to make that Reaver. No product made legitimately can compete with recasting.
So far as scatchbuilding one, I would not try and do a Reaver in that method. The model itself does not, in my opinion, lend itself to a plasticard build in the way that most tanks and even a Warhound do.
ThePrimordial wrote: Or Forgeworld is overcharging out the ass.
Which is more likely out of the two?
I don't know if Forgeworld "overcharges". I will say that unlike the recaster you bought from, Forge World has to pay for the research and development that went into that kit. Somewhere in Nottingham, there is a sculptor or more probably a team of sculptors spent a really long time making that kit, getting everything to fit, getting the molds made and - it's hard for me to say this with a straight face, but - working out quality issues with the molds so you could have a nice kit. All of this happens in a first world country to a person who has a safe work environment, a reasonable wage, and so on, for allegedly 18 months.
This is a very good point. But dont buy recasts from chinese places.
ThePrimordial wrote: By better quality I meant the type of resin used, and it's qualities.
What type of resin have they used then? I very much doubt that it is better quality and the cost was so significantly less.
XXXX
Forgeworld overcharges by quite a bit friend.
How much does 6 pounds of resin cost?
Certainly not $800+.
And by quite a bit I mean anywhere from 4-5 times the cost of production.
ThePrimordial wrote: By better quality I meant the type of resin used, and it's qualities.
What type of resin have they used then? I very much doubt that it is better quality and the cost was so significantly less.
XXXX
Forgeworld overcharges by quite a bit friend.
How much does 6 pounds of resin cost?
Certainly not $800+.
And by quite a bit I mean anywhere from 4-5 times the cost of production.
And yet that is not how things are costed. You don't cost a painting according to the worth of the material it is composed of. It's a small factor but its the actual process by which it was designed and made which warrants the cost.
ThePrimordial wrote: By better quality I meant the type of resin used, and it's qualities.
What type of resin have they used then? I very much doubt that it is better quality and the cost was so significantly less.
XXXX
Forgeworld overcharges by quite a bit friend.
How much does 6 pounds of resin cost?
Certainly not $800+.
And by quite a bit I mean anywhere from 4-5 times the cost of production.
And yet that is not how things are costed. You don't cost a painting according to the worth of the material it is composed of. It's a small factor but its the actual process by which it was designed and made which warrants the cost.
I wouldn't compare the FW Reaver titan to a painting.
ThePrimordial wrote: By better quality I meant the type of resin used, and it's qualities.
What type of resin have they used then? I very much doubt that it is better quality and the cost was so significantly less.
XXXX
Forgeworld overcharges by quite a bit friend.
How much does 6 pounds of resin cost?
Certainly not $800+.
And by quite a bit I mean anywhere from 4-5 times the cost of production.
And yet that is not how things are costed. You don't cost a painting according to the worth of the material it is composed of. It's a small factor but its the actual process by which it was designed and made which warrants the cost.
I wouldn't compare the FW Reaver titan to a painting.
ThePrimordial wrote: By better quality I meant the type of resin used, and it's qualities.
What type of resin have they used then? I very much doubt that it is better quality and the cost was so significantly less.
XXXX
Forgeworld overcharges by quite a bit friend.
How much does 6 pounds of resin cost?
Certainly not $800+.
And by quite a bit I mean anywhere from 4-5 times the cost of production.
And yet that is not how things are costed. You don't cost a painting according to the worth of the material it is composed of. It's a small factor but its the actual process by which it was designed and made which warrants the cost.
I wouldn't compare the FW Reaver titan to a painting.
Aftermath. wrote: If it is not real, or an absolutely awesome scratch built, I would absolutely not play against it.
You are not going to destroy my models with garbage, or a 3rd party Gundam on the table.
They are tough to obtain\build for a reason.
That's a pretty awful attitude. I can understand, maybe, not liking a Gundam being tossed on the table, but if I take the time to scratchbuild a Warhound or Reaver(I won't, I really do think the DreamForge Leviathans look cool as hell), I think that if I've done even a halfway decent job it's worth putting on the table.
They are tough to obtain/build because GW and FW overcharge so much it's not even funny. I'm buying a model of a Russian T-35 tank to use as a counts-as Baneblade at some point. It's nearly the exact same size as the Baneblade(possibly a bit larger, I think it sits up a bit higher), and is cast in plastic, just like the Baneblade. And when the model was last offered for sale, it cost about $35. So, two models, essentially the same size, from the same material, and yet one costs four times as much as the other? There's no excuse. The Baneblade has more than paid its sculptors by now. So have the Warhound and Reaver, and yet the prices are still obscenely high for them. What other excuse is there, barring bald faced greed?
MIni MIehm wrote: So have the Warhound and Reaver, and yet the prices are still obscenely high for them. What other excuse is there, barring bald faced greed?
The same thing that sets the price for everything else in a free market: people pay it.
MIni MIehm wrote: So have the Warhound and Reaver, and yet the prices are still obscenely high for them. What other excuse is there, barring bald faced greed?
The same thing that sets the price for everything else in a free market: people pay it.
Some people. A better attitude to take with GW is, rather than saying "Why are you bitching about the price?" as some people are wont to do, is to not buy their product. No matter whether you can afford it or not, by supporting GW, you're actually harming people who enjoy playing the game, but can't afford the ruinous prices that GW likes to charge. By doing this, GW prices people out of the hobby, which is a net negative for everyone. Less players means less games, less games means eventually less sales, and less sales eventually means either price drops or bankruptcy. By the time you get to price drops, you've so thoroughly poisoned the well, that you're unlikely to be able to cut prices enough to get people to buy back in.
Just my take on things.
Also, "People are willing to pay it." is not a reason for charging a certain price. It's a reason for not dropping a price, but to the best of my ability to discern, GW is playing a game of "How High Can We Go" with their prices, which is a matter of short sighted greed, plain and simple.
EyeOfDC wrote: and the only reason we pay it s because they're such good miniatures
They're adequate miniatures. They're certainly not the best on the planet, though Forgeworld models are certainly head and shoulders above the regular crapcast. GW miniatures certainly aren't worth the price per model they charge.
MIni MIehm wrote: Also, "People are willing to pay it." is not a reason for charging a certain price. It's a reason for not dropping a price, but to the best of my ability to discern, GW is playing a game of "How High Can We Go" with their prices, which is a matter of short sighted greed, plain and simple.
This is the method by which every single product in a free market is priced. If indeed Games Workshop is super overpriced, then this is a prime opportunity for cheaper and better third party models. If there really is a problem, it will correct itself.
MIni MIehm wrote: So have the Warhound and Reaver, and yet the prices are still obscenely high for them. What other excuse is there, barring bald faced greed?
The same thing that sets the price for everything else in a free market: people pay it.
Some people. A better attitude to take with GW is, rather than saying "Why are you bitching about the price?" as some people are wont to do, is to not buy their product. No matter whether you can afford it or not, by supporting GW, you're actually harming people who enjoy playing the game, but can't afford the ruinous prices that GW likes to charge. By doing this, GW prices people out of the hobby, which is a net negative for everyone. Less players means less games, less games means eventually less sales, and less sales eventually means either price drops or bankruptcy. By the time you get to price drops, you've so thoroughly poisoned the well, that you're unlikely to be able to cut prices enough to get people to buy back in.
Just my take on things.
Also, "People are willing to pay it." is not a reason for charging a certain price. It's a reason for not dropping a price, but to the best of my ability to discern, GW is playing a game of "How High Can We Go" with their prices, which is a matter of short sighted greed, plain and simple.
Cannot exalt this enough. GW's simply putting themselves at risk for a new company to rise up with economically priced miniatures (maybe even using 3D printers to their advantage) within ten to twenty years and dethrone them, becoming the new king of miniatures. GW's made the market, and if they don't shape up, someone else will make the product.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Yes, one who hasn't got the money can always use proxies.
Or you could just accept that your army won't have a Reaver titan. I can't afford one either, but I'm not going to put a pile of random cardboard boxes on the table and call it a titan just so I can get the D-weapons.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Yes, one who hasn't got the money can always use proxies.
Or you could just accept that your army won't have a Reaver titan. I can't afford one either, but I'm not going to put a pile of random cardboard boxes on the table and call it a titan just so I can get the D-weapons.
No one i know has ever purchased a Titan for the d-weapons. They just got them for the kick of having such an epic model. But if i where to use one i would definitely let my opponent use a cardboard box. A titan isnt cool unless there is another titan to crush.
No one I know got any FW models for "epic models" , but for the better rules the said models brought. After escalation made eldar titans legal more then a few people ordered them . Not from GW , but after painting it is impossible to prove that your titan is not a FW one.
Swastakowey wrote: No one i know has ever purchased a Titan for the d-weapons. They just got them for the kick of having such an epic model. But if i where to use one i would definitely let my opponent use a cardboard box. A titan isnt cool unless there is another titan to crush.
So if it's all about the cool model then why would you want to play with a cardboard proxy? That isn't a cool model, it's just an ugly box that has titan rules attached to it.
Swastakowey wrote: No one i know has ever purchased a Titan for the d-weapons. They just got them for the kick of having such an epic model. But if i where to use one i would definitely let my opponent use a cardboard box. A titan isnt cool unless there is another titan to crush.
So if it's all about the cool model then why would you want to play with a cardboard proxy? That isn't a cool model, it's just an ugly box that has titan rules attached to it.
Who cares what the other person has. My model is still awesome and i have an imagination. Besides its no fun when i use mine and there arent any others to fight.
Swastakowey wrote: No one i know has ever purchased a Titan for the d-weapons. They just got them for the kick of having such an epic model. But if i where to use one i would definitely let my opponent use a cardboard box. A titan isnt cool unless there is another titan to crush.
So if it's all about the cool model then why would you want to play with a cardboard proxy? That isn't a cool model, it's just an ugly box that has titan rules attached to it.
Well, if I may comment here, I'm using the Leviathan Mortis as a "proxy" for a Chaos warhound titan. It is certainly not made of cardboard, and it's not sold by GW or their other company Forge World. I, as well as quite a few other people think that it's a really cool model, should I be "allowed" to play it?
MIni MIehm wrote: Some people. A better attitude to take with GW is, rather than saying "Why are you bitching about the price?" as some people are wont to do, is to not buy their product. No matter whether you can afford it or not, by supporting GW, you're actually harming people who enjoy playing the game, but can't afford the ruinous prices that GW likes to charge. By doing this, GW prices people out of the hobby, which is a net negative for everyone. Less players means less games, less games means eventually less sales, and less sales eventually means either price drops or bankruptcy. By the time you get to price drops, you've so thoroughly poisoned the well, that you're unlikely to be able to cut prices enough to get people to buy back in.
Just my take on things.
Also, "People are willing to pay it." is not a reason for charging a certain price. It's a reason for not dropping a price, but to the best of my ability to discern, GW is playing a game of "How High Can We Go" with their prices, which is a matter of short sighted greed, plain and simple.
So because some people want a titan and can afford it, they shouldn't buy it and shouldn't be allowed to have one just because other whiny people can't afford it?
That's not how free will or a free market works.
It's not like Forge World has been price hiking titans, not that I know of. They were always extremely expensive.
Gitsmasher wrote: This is the main reason I'm anti-scratch build, as all scrach builders are is people who want the best guns with none of the cost associated with having the best guns.
All I ask my opponent is to have the correct model if it has a model from GW. However if there is no model to buy then by all means scratch build.
That git who built that scratchbuilt zapp gun in his army because he wanted variety in his army is a horrible person who just wants strength 2d6!All he wants is the biggest guns for...wait a second.And as for that ***hole who scratchbuilt a power klaw...
Jehan-reznor wrote: Yes, one who hasn't got the money can always use proxies.
Or you could just accept that your army won't have a Reaver titan. I can't afford one either, but I'm not going to put a pile of random cardboard boxes on the table and call it a titan just so I can get the D-weapons.
Or you could accept that there are players that like the game and are more lenient, instead of atacking every form of deviation from GW correctness.
It is about having fun with the game not some elitist notion that only those who can afford everything are only allowed to play.
If someone would use a large japanese robot model to proxy as a \reaver titan, i wouldn"t mind.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Yes, one who hasn't got the money can always use proxies.
Or you could just accept that your army won't have a Reaver titan. I can't afford one either, but I'm not going to put a pile of random cardboard boxes on the table and call it a titan just so I can get the D-weapons.
Or you could accept that there are players that like the game and are more lenient, instead of atacking every form of deviation from GW correctness.
It is about having fun with the game not some elitist notion that only those who can afford everything are only allowed to play.
If someone would use a large japanese robot model to proxy as a \reaver titan, i wouldn"t mind.
Jehan-reznor wrote: It is about having fun with the game not some elitist notion that only those who can afford everything are only allowed to play.
It's not about "you must pay this much to play", it's about having an enjoyable game with awesome models. The gameplay of 40k is mediocre at best, and the one redeeming aspect of the game is seeing the armies on the battlefield and imagining the fluff behind it all. Throwing cheap proxies, especially cheap proxies that look nothing like the real model (or even a 40k model at all), on the table just so you can play with the titan rules completely ruins that.
If someone would use a large japanese robot model to proxy as a \reaver titan, i wouldn"t mind.
And I would refuse to play against it. I'd rather pack up and go home than waste time playing against a "titan" like that.
So anyone who wants to see real models on the table instead of ugly and inappropriate proxies is insane? Thanks for paying attention to the forum rules. /sarcasm
sub-zero wrote: Well, if I may comment here, I'm using the Leviathan Mortis as a "proxy" for a Chaos warhound titan. It is certainly not made of cardboard, and it's not sold by GW or their other company Forge World. I, as well as quite a few other people think that it's a really cool model, should I be "allowed" to play it?
As I believe has been mentioned previously, the issue with that model is that it's not the right size nor has the right weapons layout to match a Warhound, a substantially bulkier model with a larger footprint that does not have an option for a melee weapon.
If they ever release Knight rules, it would be different.
It's not about "you must pay this much to play", it's about having an enjoyable game with awesome models. The gameplay of 40k is mediocre at best, and the one redeeming aspect of the game is seeing the armies on the battlefield and imagining the fluff behind it all. Throwing cheap proxies, especially cheap proxies that look nothing like the real model (or even a 40k model at all), on the table just so you can play with the titan rules completely ruins that.
And I would refuse to play against it. I'd rather pack up and go home than waste time playing against a "titan" like that.
So anyone who wants to see real models on the table instead of ugly and inappropriate proxies is insane? Thanks for paying attention to the forum rules. /sarcasm
I hope you understand that there are people that have less rigid stance on what is allowed on the game table than yourself. These people can enjoy the game even if the models are not approved by the GW inquisition. If you do not like it that is your prerogative.
Anywayz i rather have some Japanese robot (for example the metal gear robot as warhound proxy) then some of these self built titans made from toilet rolls, there are masters out there with plasticard but i have also seen stuff that made my stomach turn.
Like opinions, your spirit of the game may differ from other players' spirit of the game. Just because the other player believes that the spirit of the game is to have fun with official models only doesn't make them wrong. There is a reason some tournaments tend to be more strict on what proxies you can use while others are more lenient.
Some people may allow you to proxy an Ork mob, but if you tried to use a Mr. Potato Head Stompa they get upset because they think you only did that to save a lot of money and use a strong unit.
The hobby is inherently pay to win, there's no getting around it, so some people get upset that you didn't have to pay up like they did for whatever unit and in-game advantages they purchased. If you want to be a good sport in a friendly game, or hold a tournament that measures only skill and nothing else, proxies should be allowed since money spent should not be a deciding factor when having fun and when measuring playing skill.
But here's something to think about: wouldn't you appreciate the effort and consideration of a player who worked hard on an actual titan a bit more than someone who plonks down an unpainted Gunpla?
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: Like opinions, your spirit of the game may differ from other players' spirit of the game. Just because the other player believes that the spirit of the game is to have fun with official models only doesn't make them wrong. There is a reason some tournaments tend to be more strict on what proxies you can use while others are more lenient.
Some people may allow you to proxy an Ork mob, but if you tried to use a Mr. Potato Head Stompa they get upset because they think you only did that to save a lot of money and use a strong unit.
The hobby is inherently pay to win, there's no getting around it, so some people get upset that you didn't have to pay up like they did for whatever unit and in-game advantages they purchased. If you want to be a good sport in a friendly game, or hold a tournament that measures only skill and nothing else, proxies should be allowed since money spent should not be a deciding factor when having fun and when measuring playing skill.
But here's something to think about: wouldn't you appreciate the effort and consideration of a player who worked hard on an actual titan a bit more than someone who plonks down an unpainted Gunpla?
And I would say wouldn't you appreciate the effort more if someone had spent hours and hours building and painting their own, original model that's looks at least servicable rather than them throwing down a huge, poorly put together and unlainted Fw reaver? I would refer somebody playing with proxy Titan, it shows that they cared enough about outer game, or gaming in general to paint up something and put as much effort as they can into it for the match. Much better than somebody who is essentially just throwing money at some overpriced lump of resin.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Anywayz i rather have some Japanese robot (for example the metal gear robot as warhound proxy) then some of these self built titans made from toilet rolls, there are masters out there with plasticard but i have also seen stuff that made my stomach turn.
Why do I have to put up with either? I don't want garbage "scratchbuilds" in my games, and I don't want cheap walmart toys as proxies.
Naw wrote: So where in the rulebook does it say that you can only use models from GW?
I only know the 5th edition rulebook, so I have to go with that. The first sentence of page 3:
5th edition rulebook wrote:The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as 'models' in the rules that follow.
If it's not a Citadel miniature, then it is, by the rules, not considered a model for use with 40k rules in the official rulebook.
Naw wrote: Btw, our group uses our own scenery and buildings. Maybe those are wrong, too?
There is no such sentence for terrain or buildings.
I myself happily use non-GWS models in my games of 40k. There are lots of great models made by third party sellers. However, the only fair way to do this is to pick models that are approximately the same size as the model it is standing in for, and that clearly has weapons which match what the original model is armed with. By that rule of thumb, a papercraft Warhound is OK since it's the same size and has the same loadout. Eisenkern Stormtroopers are appropriate to use as Guardsmen or Space Marines, in my book, as long as you modify the special weapons to reflect who has a grav gun or flamethrower or whatever.
A Coke Can Carnifex is not OK because it's not the same size and I have no idea what it is supposed to be armed with.
Under the 40k and Forgeworld lineup, there are no models that a default, out of the box Leviathan is an appropriate counts as for: it has significantly different proportions and has a ccw where no such weapon is available to the closest sized titan.
If you used VDR to play it as a Knight or something like that, I'd be cool with it (and it obviously would fit in perfectly with Grey Knights), but it simply is inappropriate as a Warhound in my opinion.
If you used VDR to play it as a Knight or something like that, I'd be cool with it (and it obviously would fit in perfectly with Grey Knights), but it simply is inappropriate as a Warhound in my opinion.
the the size matter? it is not like people are going to claim cover for it and all the other stuff that will buff it works no matter how high it is , stuff like void shield bunkers or +4inv landing pads doesn't care about model size .
So the rich kid one day decides to grab his parents' credit card and gets a Reaver, then bullies his dad to somehow put it together so that it looks somewhat like the intended model. Meanwhile the considerably less rich kid builds a Reaver out of what materials he can get, resulting in a correctly sized model that is far from a masterpiece but admirable considering what resources he had.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: So the rich kid one day decides to grab his parents' credit card and gets a Reaver, then bullies his dad to somehow put it together so that it looks somewhat like the intended model. Meanwhile the considerably less rich kid builds a Reaver out of what materials he can get, resulting in a correctly sized model that is far from a masterpiece but admirable considering what resources he had.
Who would you rather play?
Seriously man, dont bother reasoning with him. It will go no where.
I have more respect for player that pored their heart and soul into a scratch-built model, than I do a player that bought an expensive model that they also paid someone else to assemble and paint. The art of the hobby is very important to me, more so than the immersion. I'd rather play against a loving converted "Skaven" Imperial Guard army complete with converted "Reaver" played by army's creator, than against a professionally painted Forge World army played by a snob with the most money.
I think you guys are kind of erecting a strawman here in the desire to paint this as some kind of, like, us vs the 1% morality play. I have yet to see a player refuse to play against a well-built and painted scratchbuilt Reaver.
The problem is that unlike tanks or even a Warhound, the Reaver is such that it's very difficult to scratchbuild, let alone scratchbuild well. The Lucius warhound is all boxes and some PVC pipes for legs, but the Reaver is all curved shapes and tapers. It's going to be prohibitively expensive and require a level of talent with plasticard most people, myself included, do not possess to scratchbuild one that looks good.
Makumba 571236 6404735 wrote:the the size matter?
Yes, the size matters, as well as the gun muzzle heights and so on. The whole game revolves around TLOS, so using a model that is a little shorter and substantially less wide and less long with a smaller footprint and the same weapon loadout leads to a situation where it's an unfair advantage.
Seriously, look at the size difference.
I like the model a lot. I won one in a contest, FFS, so I'm especially grateful to Dreamforge. That doesn't make it a reasonable proxy though.
You come up with rules to play it as a Knight, I'm totally down with it.
Lets not go there.....there is already a thread on the dreamforge vs. warhound .....there are plenty of opinons there, so please, lets not beat the dead horse.
Also, I can agree.....unless a person who proxying a cardboard box to determine if they wanted to make/buy a better model, I would not want to play against it either.
For example, in one of our games, a guy was considering getting a hierophant, and it was a casual game, so we let him proxy a toy for it - it was about the same size.
We were fine with it - it was a test.
Now, if six months later, he was still using the toy (a banha plushie, to be exact) that would be a bit ....cheesy.
However, if instead he had a scratch built one that he did a decent job at, I would happily welcome it.
I proxy super heavies all the time, I do it to test them before I either buy or build one. When I do proxy them, I try to make sure they are of the same size and shape.
After a game or two, I usually have a decent idea if they are worth getting, and retire the proxy.
I notice that some of the posters here are quite ...."passionate" about the poor quality proxies, and honestly, it sounds like a personal issue...as someone they know of did something specific they did not approve of. I would say....leave that behind you - not everyone wanting to proxy something is jerk - so its a good idea not to project issues in the past on someone else who is not that guy...
Again, none of the above. I don't have to choose between two awful models, I can just reject them both.
Clearly you have concerns about bad looking models, and as I know I appreciate a game where the terrain and models all look good, I can see that as reasonable some of the time.
However, I would ask, does this mean you are ok with good looking scratchbuilds if they match the shape and size of the original model?
davethepak wrote: However, I would ask, does this mean you are ok with good looking scratchbuilds if they match the shape and size of the original model?
I'm fine with scratchbuilds if they match the shape and size of the original model and match the quality and level of detail. The problem is that the vast majority of titan scratchbuilds don't even come close to that standard. Details are virtually nonexistent (plain tubes for guns, missing rivets, etc) , assembly quality is severely lacking (glue puddles, gaps, corners that aren't quite the right angle, etc), and it's generally just a pile of cardboard in the rough shape of a titan. The intent is clearly to get access to the powerful titan rules while spending an absolute minimum of time and money on the model. In the unlikely event that the purpose was clearly to build a unique model where scratchbuilding was the only option to execute the artist's vision and the result is a high-quality model then I'll be quite happy to play against it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And a quick google search for titan images to demonstrate:
This is a great scratchbuild (at least it probably will be when it's finished):
The assembly quality is great, there's plenty of fine detail work, and the result is clearly going to be an awesome model. And, if anything, it's probably going to take more time and effort than just buying the FW one, so it's clearly not just a minimal-effort attempt to get D-weapons. Now compare that with this one:
It gets the size and shape right, but it's just an awful model. And, not surprisingly, it looks like it's armed with two D-weapons.
Peregrine - I can agree with some of this sentiment...but I think this is the core of the matter right here...
The intent is clearly to get access to the powerful titan rules while spending an absolute minimum of time and money on the model.
While I can totally agree that I would not respect the player who did the this, not everyone who fails to do this...
In the unlikely event that the purpose was clearly to build a unique model where scratchbuilding was the only option to execute the artist's vision and the result is a high-quality model then I'll be quite happy to play against it
.
Is the first player.
Honestly. Sounds like you have had some bad experiences with the former types - which I can understand. But not everyone who is not a master model maker but wants to scratchbuild is a jerk.
There is a wide range. This is a blend of motivation (i.e. wants to win and not work for it) and skill (not a great scratch builder). The two do not always meet.
This is one of the biggest challenges in many things - when the motivation of someone in the past (i.e. a jerk) has created such an impression, that others who have may have independent but similar actions are compared to the same motivation.
for example, I am considering scratchbuilding a tau orca. Why? Because after playing it a few times with a proxy, I think it can actually work in a few games (dies about 1/2 the time before it can unload).
I just can't justify the cost for the full model, and have no need for one that has an interior (I don't care for the interior).
Does that make me a jerk? Anyone who even remotely looks at the orca would quickly realize that I am not getting one to be a power gamer (it is just terrible).
I just love the thing. But thats a lot of cash to justify.
Note, I did not say spend....I already have 8 genuine gw/fw superheavies. But most of them I felt the cost/appearance/use on the table were worth buying.
The orca I don't - its just too expensive for my desire to spend (again, not my means - but my personal value equation).
Now, while I do a decent job at building things, the orca will be a challenge. I think I can pull it off, but its not "the only option" but its what I choose to do.
It will be decent, and it wlll be painted to a high standard, and it will have a base with a cool diorama on it - but it won't be a "real" forgeworld (or recast) orca.
Not everyone with a proxy is a jerk, and not everyone with a real model isn't.
How about we judge people by how they play the game with us on the table?
I like the model a lot. I won one in a contest, FFS, so I'm especially grateful to Dreamforge. That doesn't make it a reasonable proxy though.
neither gets cover from terrain on tables , unless someone plays on multi layer city fight tables and how many of those are used , considering how OP demons get with them ? Both will see everything and there is nor problem of getting cover from them , because D weapons ignore cover, invs etc Game expiriance wise It doesn't have to be on the table , you just roll if you get through its void shields and the void shield bunker ones protecting it and it just point and click removed 3+ vehicles per turn.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Anywayz i rather have some Japanese robot (for example the metal gear robot as warhound proxy) then some of these self built titans made from toilet rolls, there are masters out there with plasticard but i have also seen stuff that made my stomach turn.
Why do I have to put up with either? I don't want garbage "scratchbuilds" in my games, and I don't want cheap walmart toys as proxies.
Did you ignore my previous point? There are people that have a different view than yourself, all i hear is I,I,I! we get your rigid stance on these things.
I am asking if you understand that there are people who don't have a problem with that.
He doesn't have to understand, it's his right to refuse to play them. Why are you trying to push your beliefs on him? It's not like he demanded you remove your proxies from the table. He just walks away. Why are you hounding people online asking them about your scratch builds?
To all those that "just walk away" or "refuse to play", you guys must have a much bigger pool of opponents to draw from than I do if you are so picky as to alienate people over a model. Personally, I invite people in to play the game rather than push people out of the "club".
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: He doesn't have to understand, it's his right to refuse to play them. Why are you trying to push your beliefs on him? It's not like he demanded you remove your proxies from the table. He just walks away. Why are you hounding people online asking them about your scratch builds?
I never mentioned anything on my scratchbuilts , and i never tried to push my beliefs on them, i just tried to ask if he understands that there are people who don't share his view.
Try again when you understand what i am saying.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: Seems like you're the one who doesn't understand that there are people who don't share YOUR view.
I said this,
I hope you understand that there are people that have less rigid stance on what is allowed on the game table than yourself. These people can enjoy the game even if the models are not approved by the GW inquisition. If you do not like it that is your prerogative.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: He doesn't have to understand, it's his right to refuse to play them. Why are you trying to push your beliefs on him? It's not like he demanded you remove your proxies from the table. He just walks away. Why are you hounding people online asking them about your scratch builds?
Unless you take severe offense at an opponent bringing a lot of cheese to a game, dropping the game immediately simply because someone shows up with a shoddy scratchbuild is ridiculous. If you're going to turn someone down simply because you take offense at a models appearance (which is absurd, it's a model, the point of a proxy is to see if you want to invest the money and time in either buying the set or hand-building a high-quality scratch model), you should at least pay your opponent the gas he used to drive there. If the opposing football team shows up wearing pink uniforms due to a washer mishap, you don't have a right to refuse the game simply because of how they look. Unless they show up with ten quick build titans decked out with D weapons, you don't really have any right to refuse to play someone who packed up a kit of models, drove over to the location, unpacked, assembled, only to be turned down because one model is a poor looking scratch build the point of which is to look poor as it's just a stand in because he wants to know if he should invest time and/or money in and take time out of his life to build. Unless they've been using it for a year and clearly are just using it as a permanent model, turning them down for a battle is similar to the home owner's association suing you because there's a couple weeds in your yard and your grass is an inch too high. The point of the proxy is to test run something if you're competitive to see if it's worth buying or building yourself from scratch as a competitive unit to save money.
Wyzilla wrote: If you're going to turn someone down simply because you take offense at a models appearance (which is absurd, it's a model, the point of a proxy is to see if you want to invest the money and time in either buying the set or hand-building a high-quality scratch model), you should at least pay your opponent the gas he used to drive there.
There's a difference between a proxy used as a one-time thing to test a model before buying the real one and a proxy that's intended to be used indefinitely because you're too lazy or cheap to buy/build a real model. And in the case of a Reaver titan, where everyone knows already that it's a powerful game-winning unit and doesn't have to test it, there's no real reason to ever need a proxy.
And paying for my opponent's gas because they brought an ugly army is just a joke, right?
Unless they show up with ten quick build titans decked out with D weapons, you don't really have any right to refuse to play someone who packed up a kit of models, drove over to the location, unpacked, assembled, only to be turned down because one model is a poor looking scratch build the point of which is to look poor as it's just a stand in because he wants to know if he should invest time and/or money in and take time out of his life to build.
Sure I do. What are you going to do, hold a gun to my head and force me to play? And why is having one ugly proxy better than having ten? If you're justified in bringing one then why not bring ten to "test" your ten-titan list full of D-weapons?
The point of the proxy is to test run something if you're competitive to see if it's worth buying or building yourself from scratch as a competitive unit to save money.
And if you're playing competitively with titans you're doing it wrong. Apocalypse is about putting awesome armies on the table, not playing competitively in an utterly broken game variant that's full of overpowered balance mistakes just waiting to be exploited.
Wyzilla wrote: If you're going to turn someone down simply because you take offense at a models appearance (which is absurd, it's a model, the point of a proxy is to see if you want to invest the money and time in either buying the set or hand-building a high-quality scratch model), you should at least pay your opponent the gas he used to drive there.
There's a difference between a proxy used as a one-time thing to test a model before buying the real one and a proxy that's intended to be used indefinitely because you're too lazy or cheap to buy/build a real model. And in the case of a Reaver titan, where everyone knows already that it's a powerful game-winning unit and doesn't have to test it, there's no real reason to ever need a proxy.
And paying for my opponent's gas because they brought an ugly army is just a joke, right?
Unless they show up with ten quick build titans decked out with D weapons, you don't really have any right to refuse to play someone who packed up a kit of models, drove over to the location, unpacked, assembled, only to be turned down because one model is a poor looking scratch build the point of which is to look poor as it's just a stand in because he wants to know if he should invest time and/or money in and take time out of his life to build.
Sure I do. What are you going to do, hold a gun to my head and force me to play? And why is having one ugly proxy better than having ten? If you're justified in bringing one then why not bring ten to "test" your ten-titan list full of D-weapons?
The point of the proxy is to test run something if you're competitive to see if it's worth buying or building yourself from scratch as a competitive unit to save money.
And if you're playing competitively with titans you're doing it wrong. Apocalypse is about putting awesome armies on the table, not playing competitively in an utterly broken game variant that's full of overpowered balance mistakes just waiting to be exploited.
That's the point. Unless it's a competitive tournament with rules as for the painting quality of miniatures participating in the battle, it doesn't matter what your armies look like. They could be finely painted masterpieces or globs of paint suffocating the miniature underneath, so long as it's the proper size of LOS, they can look like anything and refusing a game simply because they're fugly is hilariously petty.
And if you're playing competitively with titans you're doing it wrong.
Exactly, so why care about D weapons?
In Apocalypse, there are things that can easily take care of that. If it had been Escalation, sure, that's another cup of tea. But Apocalypse is Destroyer's home realm.
If you turn down proxies because you demand that someone needs to spend a certain amount of $$$ to play with you, whether by buying the model, paying someone to build/paint it, or both, then say that. Don't blame Destroyer, especially when most Reavers are not actually armed with the 2x Laser Blaster - 1x Turbolaser build.
Wyzilla wrote: That's the point. Unless it's a competitive tournament with rules as for the painting quality of miniatures participating in the battle, it doesn't matter what your armies look like. They could be finely painted masterpieces or globs of paint suffocating the miniature underneath, so long as it's the proper size of LOS, they can look like anything and refusing a game simply because they're fugly is hilariously petty.
Of course it matters what they look like. 40k's rules are garbage, the only reason to play the game is the experience of seeing two awesome armies on the table and imagining the fluff behind it. And that's especially true in Apocalypse, where the average "game" consists of standing around trying not to fall asleep while your opponents spend an hour-long shooting phase taking half your army off the table. If you replace the awesome armies with ugly proxies/gray plastic/etc you lose that entire aesthetic factor and the game isn't worth playing. I'd rather just pack up and go home than suffer through the multi-hour masochism ritual of "playing" 40k with a bunch of proxies that might as well just be cardboard counters.
Because it often provides a hint to the proxy builder's intent. Most of the cardboard "titans" I've seen have been armed with lots of D-weapons, which suggest that the builder's attitude was that the most important thing is getting to use the overpowered titan rules and putting an awesome model on the table doesn't matter. If someone brought a Reaver proxy with dual powerfists and a flamer at least I'd know that they weren't just looking for the easiest way to win the game.
If you turn down proxies because you demand that someone needs to spend a certain amount of $$$ to play with you, whether by buying the model, paying someone to build/paint it, or both, then say that.
It's not about money. If you don't want to spend $900 on a Reaver then invest the effort in scratchbuilding one that looks as good as the real thing. Don't tell me how you absolutely have to use this cardboard proxy titan you built the night before the game.
And you don't have to buy a titan to play with me. Feel free to bring a conventional army instead.
Don't blame Destroyer, especially when most Reavers are not actually armed with the 2x Laser Blaster - 1x Turbolaser build.
It's not about money. If you don't want to spend $900 on a Reaver then invest the effort in scratchbuilding one that looks as good as the real thing. Don't tell me how you absolutely have to use this cardboard proxy titan you built the night before the game.
And you don't have to buy a titan to play with me. Feel free to bring a conventional army instead.
Don't blame Destroyer, especially when most Reavers are not actually armed with the 2x Laser Blaster - 1x Turbolaser build.
Most of the proxies I've seen are.
This cardboard reaver strawman is getting really tedious now, Peregrine. I do not think anyone is arguing for putting up a box on the table and saying it is a Reaver. Rather they are arguing for putting up something like a Leviathan-style model. What is even wrong with that? It fits the 40K aesthetic (It is basically a big Dreadknight), it can be armed with distinct weaponry that can plausibly match its in-game weapon options- And if not, well, it's Apocalypse, man! You can easily make up your own rules for its weapons, stats and stuff. Apocalypse is the home of homebrews. A homebrew (small, no less) Titan is just as believable as a homebrew Chapter.
You are free to turn down someone because they do not have a strict tournament-styled army with 100% official models, rules and WYSIWYG equipment in the single most casual and open-to-homebrews game mode in all of 40K, but do not expect that to be some kind of standard.
But it doesn't really. If the Leviathan cost as much as a real titan interest in the "alternate pattern" would be virtually nonexistent. It's no better a match for 40k than any other generic scifi walker of comparable size, it's just cheap enough that people want to use it.
it can be armed with distinct weaponry that can plausibly match its in-game weapon options
No it can't. The guns look nothing like the weapons any 40k titan is armed with, they're no more "plausible" than any other random scifi guns.
Apocalypse is the home of homebrews.
And that homebrew should be motivated by doing something awesome that the existing rules/models can't handle, not by cutting the price of a Warhound from $500 to $150.
But it doesn't really. If the Leviathan cost as much as a real titan interest in the "alternate pattern" would be virtually nonexistent. It's no better a match for 40k than any other generic scifi walker of comparable size, it's just cheap enough that people want to use it.
it can be armed with distinct weaponry that can plausibly match its in-game weapon options
No it can't. The guns look nothing like the weapons any 40k titan is armed with, they're no more "plausible" than any other random scifi guns.
Apocalypse is the home of homebrews.
And that homebrew should be motivated by doing something awesome that the existing rules/models can't handle, not by cutting the price of a Warhound from $500 to $150.
I am not so sure. I am seeing some voices simply preferring the Leviathan model due to aesthetics. Do not be so quick to assume the intentions of all others, even if you might be correct in some cases.
The plausibility of the weapon options is subjective. I think they will work. They certainly look suitably sci-fi-40K-ish, and while they are not identical, if you want a fluff reason I am sure there are Forge Worlds out there with their own very different patterns of weaponry. We know that different patterns van vary a lot in appearance, after all, and this is not outside its parameters.
And, again, you make assumptions. If someone likes the Leviathan model, paints it like a big Dreadknight andsays 'Here, here is my Grey Knight Titan that my guys built to counter that big nasty Ang'grath.', I would not only accept it, I would encourage it.
The price is of course a major factor. That is obvious. The Warhound is, like all GW stuff, hilariously overpriced. If you can get yourself a cheaper model that looks good and tells a story to boot (Why does your Titan mini-Legion use this prototype Titan? How did they obtain it? Stolen xenotech? Do they want it back?) then that should be encouraged, not discarded in favour of pretty little straight-out-of-the-box armies.
The same goes for a Reaver, even if a Leviathan is perhaps less ideal there due to the size difference.
A cheap model and an awesome one does not have to be mutually exclusive, you know.
And we can put the walmart reaver strawman behind us, yes?
BrotherHaraldus wrote: I am not so sure. I am seeing some voices simply preferring the Leviathan model due to aesthetics. Do not be so quick to assume the intentions of all others, even if you might be correct in some cases.
But how much of that is legitimate interest in the Leviathan regardless of its cost, and how much if it is an attempt to justify using the Leviathan as something more than just a cheap proxy?
The plausibility of the weapon options is subjective. I think they will work. They certainly look suitably sci-fi-40K-ish, and while they are not identical, if you want a fluff reason I am sure there are Forge Worlds out there with their own very different patterns of weaponry. We know that different patterns van vary a lot in appearance, after all, and this is not outside its parameters.
But the point is that they don't look more like 40k weapons than any other random scifi weapons. You could put Star Wars guns on the Leviathan and they'd be just as "close" a match. And if you show someone a Leviathan without telling them the rules they'd have no clue what 40k guns it's supposed to have. All you're really saying here is the obvious fact that any vaguely gun-shaped object can be proxied as a plasma gun if you tell everyone what rules it's supposed to be using and don't really care about having the model look anything like a plasma gun.
If someone likes the Leviathan model, paints it like a big Dreadknight andsays 'Here, here is my Grey Knight Titan that my guys built to counter that big nasty Ang'grath.', I would not only accept it, I would encourage it.
My opinion of that depends on whether it's a legitimate desire to build a GK titan (which is completely against the fluff, but lots of people add titans to armies that shouldn't have them) and it being pure coincidence that the most appropriate model also happened to be cheap, or a case of after-the-fact rationalization for why such an inappropriate model is "fluffy" and the cheap proxy should be allowed.
The Warhound is, like all GW stuff, hilariously overpriced.
Not really. Huge complex resin kits are not cheap. Don't confuse "I don't want to pay that much" with "objectively overpriced".
If you can get yourself a cheaper model that looks good and tells a story to boot (Why does your Titan mini-Legion use this prototype Titan? How did they obtain it? Stolen xenotech? Do they want it back?) then that should be encouraged, not discarded in favour of pretty little straight-out-of-the-box armies.
But it doesn't tell the story just as well, because it isn't a 40k model. It's like asking me to play against your Star Trek/your favorite football team/40k fanfiction army and expecting me to love it because you've been so "creative".
And we can put the walmart reaver strawman behind us, yes?
Sure, just as soon as it starts being a strawman and stops being an accurate description of a lot of proxies in Apocalypse.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: I am not so sure. I am seeing some voices simply preferring the Leviathan model due to aesthetics. Do not be so quick to assume the intentions of all others, even if you might be correct in some cases.
But how much of that is legitimate interest in the Leviathan regardless of its cost, and how much if it is an attempt to justify using the Leviathan as something more than just a cheap proxy?
The plausibility of the weapon options is subjective. I think they will work. They certainly look suitably sci-fi-40K-ish, and while they are not identical, if you want a fluff reason I am sure there are Forge Worlds out there with their own very different patterns of weaponry. We know that different patterns van vary a lot in appearance, after all, and this is not outside its parameters.
But the point is that they don't look more like 40k weapons than any other random scifi weapons. You could put Star Wars guns on the Leviathan and they'd be just as "close" a match. And if you show someone a Leviathan without telling them the rules they'd have no clue what 40k guns it's supposed to have. All you're really saying here is the obvious fact that any vaguely gun-shaped object can be proxied as a plasma gun if you tell everyone what rules it's supposed to be using and don't really care about having the model look anything like a plasma gun.
If someone likes the Leviathan model, paints it like a big Dreadknight andsays 'Here, here is my Grey Knight Titan that my guys built to counter that big nasty Ang'grath.', I would not only accept it, I would encourage it.
My opinion of that depends on whether it's a legitimate desire to build a GK titan (which is completely against the fluff, but lots of people add titans to armies that shouldn't have them) and it being pure coincidence that the most appropriate model also happened to be cheap, or a case of after-the-fact rationalization for why such an inappropriate model is "fluffy" and the cheap proxy should be allowed.
The Warhound is, like all GW stuff, hilariously overpriced.
Not really. Huge complex resin kits are not cheap. Don't confuse "I don't want to pay that much" with "objectively overpriced".
If you can get yourself a cheaper model that looks good and tells a story to boot (Why does your Titan mini-Legion use this prototype Titan? How did they obtain it? Stolen xenotech? Do they want it back?) then that should be encouraged, not discarded in favour of pretty little straight-out-of-the-box armies.
But it doesn't tell the story just as well, because it isn't a 40k model. It's like asking me to play against your Star Trek/your favorite football team/40k fanfiction army and expecting me to love it because you've been so "creative".
And we can put the walmart reaver strawman behind us, yes?
Sure, just as soon as it starts being a strawman and stops being an accurate description of a lot of proxies in Apocalypse.
So, my question here is two-fold...
One, if the model is cool, which I personally think the Crusader and Mortis are, why does it matter if they're cheap? The price of the model has nothing to do with how it looks, or how it plays on the table(other attributes of the model might, the price does not). The model is one that apparently a fair few people think looks really cool. I think it looks really cool. Does it really matter how much they paid for it, since it's not some walmart toy, or a cardboard box?
Two, who cares if it's a GW model? It's a COOL model. It's not like GW has a monopoly on models that can be used to play 40k, unless you want to be the most intentionally obtuse ruleslawyer and TFG ever. "That's not a citadel mini, you can't use it." Who takes that attitude outside of GW themselves? It's basically contrary to the entire spirit of the game. It would be one thing if you said you just didn't want to play against a Titan, but you don't want to play against Titan proxies, so what magical property do FW models possess that makes them acceptable to field, with identical weapons configurations to non-GW proxies?
BrotherHaraldus wrote: I am not so sure. I am seeing some voices simply preferring the Leviathan model due to aesthetics. Do not be so quick to assume the intentions of all others, even if you might be correct in some cases.
But how much of that is legitimate interest in the Leviathan regardless of its cost, and how much if it is an attempt to justify using the Leviathan as something more than just a cheap proxy?
The plausibility of the weapon options is subjective. I think they will work. They certainly look suitably sci-fi-40K-ish, and while they are not identical, if you want a fluff reason I am sure there are Forge Worlds out there with their own very different patterns of weaponry. We know that different patterns van vary a lot in appearance, after all, and this is not outside its parameters.
But the point is that they don't look more like 40k weapons than any other random scifi weapons. You could put Star Wars guns on the Leviathan and they'd be just as "close" a match. And if you show someone a Leviathan without telling them the rules they'd have no clue what 40k guns it's supposed to have. All you're really saying here is the obvious fact that any vaguely gun-shaped object can be proxied as a plasma gun if you tell everyone what rules it's supposed to be using and don't really care about having the model look anything like a plasma gun.
If someone likes the Leviathan model, paints it like a big Dreadknight andsays 'Here, here is my Grey Knight Titan that my guys built to counter that big nasty Ang'grath.', I would not only accept it, I would encourage it.
My opinion of that depends on whether it's a legitimate desire to build a GK titan (which is completely against the fluff, but lots of people add titans to armies that shouldn't have them) and it being pure coincidence that the most appropriate model also happened to be cheap, or a case of after-the-fact rationalization for why such an inappropriate model is "fluffy" and the cheap proxy should be allowed.
The Warhound is, like all GW stuff, hilariously overpriced.
Not really. Huge complex resin kits are not cheap. Don't confuse "I don't want to pay that much" with "objectively overpriced".
If you can get yourself a cheaper model that looks good and tells a story to boot (Why does your Titan mini-Legion use this prototype Titan? How did they obtain it? Stolen xenotech? Do they want it back?) then that should be encouraged, not discarded in favour of pretty little straight-out-of-the-box armies.
But it doesn't tell the story just as well, because it isn't a 40k model. It's like asking me to play against your Star Trek/your favorite football team/40k fanfiction army and expecting me to love it because you've been so "creative".
And we can put the walmart reaver strawman behind us, yes?
Sure, just as soon as it starts being a strawman and stops being an accurate description of a lot of proxies in Apocalypse.
I have never seen any cardboard, box with 'reaver' written on, or walmart titans. Your experience may vary, but I have no reason to assume it even is a risk playing. The people I meet generally have better judgement. Besides, nobody here is even arguing for it. I am not arguing for it. So do not use counter-arguments for it against us.
How much of your resistance to alternate models is legitimate concerns and how much is just pettiness?
I'd argue that the Vulkan cannon looks pretty much exactly like a big Assault Cannon, and for an oversized Assault Cannon I'd see Vulcan Mega-Bolter rules as entirely appropriate.
The H.E.L. weapon, for example, matches aesthetics of 40K, which is why it is more legit than, say, a Star Wars model. That you have to explain it beforehand is the same as me having to explain beforehand when I am using the DV Chaos Lord as a Sorcerer, and you can't seriously proclaim that as out of place in 40K. That artillery-esque cannon also is entirely in the same style as, say, a Basilisk.
A GK Titan built to counter utterly massive Daemons like the FW ones is not unreasonable, it is just furthering the Dreadknight concept. It might not be a coincidence that it is cheaper, of course, that is obvious, but it should not be detrimental to you that it is. It is only positive for the owner that it is. After all, it is not like you gain something if he forks out the cash for another model. Money does not gaurantee quality, and that one is there does not gaurantee that the other is.
The Warhound is overpriced. It is complex, it is resin, but it is more expensive than it should be, really.
That a model does not have the 40K stamp on it does not make it the equivalent of 'my favourite football team', and you know that too. Bad strawman is bad.
And, for Zog's sake, man. I am not telling you to change your opinion. I am telling you to stop assuming that your own opinion forms some kind of twisted 'standard'.
MIni MIehm wrote: One, if the model is cool, which I personally think the Crusader and Mortis are, why does it matter if they're cheap?
It doesn't matter. The problem isn't that it's a cheap substitute, it's that it's an inappropriate substitute that's being used just because it's cheaper. The Leviathan doesn't look anything like the model it's being proxied as, so including it as a "Warhound" interferes with my appreciation of the awesome armies on the table.
Two, who cares if it's a GW model?
Nobody. The problem isn't that it's a non-GW model, it's that a non-40k model. It doesn't look like it belongs in 40k, just like a random Star Wars model (even a very nice and expensive one) doesn't look like it belongs in 40k. I'm perfectly fine with people scratchbuilding their own versions of GW models and not paying GW anything, as long as the end result is an appropriate 40k model that's as nice as the model it is replacing.
so what magical property do FW models possess that makes them acceptable to field
The magical property of actually looking like a titan from the fictional universe of 40k.
with identical weapons configurations to non-GW proxies?
And, once again, the weapons are NOT identical. None of the Leviathan weapons match the options a Warhound can take. The only one that's even close is the "mega bolter", the others are just random generic scifi guns. If you asked someone to identify the guns on a Leviathan-as-Warhound-proxy they'd have absolutely no clue what they were until you told them.
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BrotherHaraldus wrote: How much of your resistance to alternate models is legitimate concerns and how much is just pettiness?
All of it is a legitimate concern. I don't like the model, I don't think it's appropriate for 40k, and I'm tired of the attitude that people are entitled to use their cheap proxy just because they don't want to buy a real Warhound.
I'd argue that the Vulkan cannon looks pretty much exactly like a big Assault Cannon, and for an oversized Assault Cannon I'd see Vulcan Mega-Bolter rules as entirely appropriate.
Not really. The mega bolter is two sets of barrels mounted in a boxy housing with just the tips sticking out, this is a single set of barrels with most of the gun exposed. You could probably guess what Warhound gun it's supposed to be just because it looks even less like anything else, but it's still not a very good match.
The H.E.L. weapon, for example, matches aesthetics of 40K, which is why it is more legit than, say, a Star Wars model.
Not really. It's just a generic scifi gun. If anything it looks like some kind of Tau gun, not an appropriate Warhound weapon.
That artillery-esque cannon also is entirely in the same style as, say, a Basilisk.
Warhounds can't take any kind of artillery cannon. If you show me a Leviathan armed with one I have no idea what it's supposed to represent.
A GK Titan built to counter utterly massive Daemons like the FW ones is not unreasonable, it is just furthering the Dreadknight concept.
I guess, but that would be a special melee "super Dreadknight", not a Warhound.
The Warhound is overpriced. It is complex, it is resin, but it is more expensive than it should be, really.
And you're basing this on what exactly?
That a model does not have the 40K stamp on it does not make it the equivalent of 'my favourite football team', and you know that too.
It's not just the lack of an official stamp, it's the fact that it looks nothing like the model it's being used as a proxy for. It's very clearly a model from some other fictional universe being used in a 40k game as a proxy.
Yep, it'd be a proxy. Ehh... What's the argument? I see proxies all the time. My Chaos Lord-used-as-a-Chaos Sorcerer is a proxy. My friend using his awesome kitbash scratchbuild Wazdakka is a proxy. Using any rules (Like Looted Wagon) without an official GW model is a proxy.
Big deal.
That it somehow stands out too much to be used in 40K is absurd. Aesthetically it matches the universe's themes. The major difference is for LOS purposes. And if you complain on the inch of height difference in an apocalypse game... Yeah.
Again... You are free to go on as much as you wish about it not living up to your standards or whatever. Fine. Your standards. Not anyone else's.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Yep, it'd be a proxy. Ehh... What's the argument? I see proxies all the time. My Chaos Lord-used-as-a-Chaos Sorcerer is a proxy. My friend using his awesome kitbash scratchbuild Wazdakka is a proxy. Using any rules (Like Looted Wagon) without an official GW model is a proxy.
Except those (presumably) are legitimate 40k models that look like the models they're using the rules for. The Leviathan, on the other hand, doesn't look like a Warhound.
The major difference is for LOS purposes.
No, the major difference is that it looks nothing like a Warhound. A Warhound is a bipedal walker, but very clearly not human-shaped. It has legs, but its guns are just turret mounts instead of arms, and its head/body are solid blocks instead of a representation of a person. In terms of posing the Warhound is very top-heavy and almost always has a pose that is leaning forwards a bit, like it is stalking aggressively through the battle to fill its scouting/flanking role. The Leviathan, on the other hand, is a suit of armor scaled up to titan size. It's very human-like in shape with conventional arms/legs and weapons mounted on its hands. In terms of posing it's also very human-like, and tends to look like an armored knight advancing slowly but unstoppably into battle (preferably to go cut something in half with its giant sword).
No it doesn't. Not to me. Not at all. I'd grudgingly grant you it's use as a Knight, but not a Warhound titan.
However, as I only play Apocalypse with people I know well, and would never play a titan outside of an Apocalypse game, I really have nothing to worry about in this regard.
The argument either way is really a moot point to me.
No it doesn't. Not to me. Not at all. I'd grudgingly grant you it's use as a Knight, but not a Warhound titan.
However, as I only play Apocalypse with people I know well, and would never play a titan outside of an Apocalypse game, I really have nothing to worry about in this regard.
The argument either way is really a moot point to me.
Warhound or Knight is irrelevant to me. If I had a Levvy it'd matter much less than getting to use the model at all.
to transport and risk being damaged to take it anywhere. I imagine that the warhound would be more manageable than a Reaver for assembly, painting, and transport.
