And i'm really curious what you guys think.

oh, and please say why.

Hard to say.

On one hand, some of their product is so bad it's insulting and the company itself is incredibly incompetently managed, but on the other hand they are really good at dealing with faulty models, late arrivals, missing packages etc.

I voted a 2, and that's having put a lot of money into the company years ago. Main reason is that they don't seem to care anymore. They publish rules that don't seem tested and don't care about "codex creep", they constantly price hike their miniatures to the point where it's now ridiculous to even get started in the game and yet they claim that they want to sell to kids/teens (what teenager is going to be able to ask mom and dad for the $300-400 to just start playing??), and overall it just either is insane greed or they are in dire financial straits and trying everything and anything to turn a profit.

IMO it's a shame since the figures are good, but they should be priced more reasonably for somebody to start playing. When it costs you over $120 (rules + codex) just for the RULES you need, something is drastically wrong at the very foundation of the business' values when they don't see something wrong with that.

Compare that to something like Warlord Games, where you can get a starting army for like $120; a smallish army but enough to actually play a legal game, and then you expand that army with reasonably-priced units. With GW, you spend $120 for a handful of units that still doesn't give you enough to begin to play a game.

i tend to view gw as a customer rather than a hobbyist. As such i'm generally happy with their performance, on the model side of things anyway. They should be providing higher quality modelling tools though, particularly paint brushes, and the spray paint should be cheaper, but the actual pot paints i am very happy with.

I don't expect this poll to be favourable towards gw though. They've been zealously unpopular ever since i can remember, and i've never understood why. If you don't like what they make, don't buy it. Seems obvious to me.

I gave it a 6.

I really enjoy the game and the rules they put out, and my friends and I have been having a blast. Escalation is one of the best things that we've had happen in our group, and the release of Forge World's Legio Cybernetica stuff has given me cause to celebrate.

However, the prices are becoming unbearable, and the company itself does several things I dislike (acting like a huge jerk who can't get with the times) is unfortunate.

It's a good company. The staff are knowledgeable. The one near me told me the location of the nearest gaming club. And the one time I had a faulty product (a wood elf army book that fell apart faster than the wood elf army) it was quickly replaced.

Prices can be a pain, but then again a pair of jeans from Next can put you back £50, so in reality it isn't so bad seeing as the models you get will last a lifetime provided you care for them.

Tip to OP: Spellcheck

xruslanx wrote:
i tend to view gw as a customer rather than a hobbyist. As such i'm generally happy with their performance, on the model side of things anyway. They should be providing higher quality modelling tools though, particularly paint brushes, and the spray paint should be cheaper, but the actual pot paints i am very happy with.

I don't expect this poll to be favourable towards gw though. They've been zealously unpopular ever since i can remember, and i've never understood why. If you don't like what they make, don't buy it. Seems obvious to me.

well, except they are the ones who make the models for warhammer 40k. If I dont want to buy the models, then i dont play the game.
The reason htey are unpopular is for many things.
1) Pricing.
2) Making rules and war gear that are just plain dumb, and with the tyranids just rushing to put out rules that clearly weren't thought through enough and are just sad.

those are the 2 big ones for me, but there are others.

They have good customer service on the back end of logistics, that is "my model is broken, etc." but very poor on the front end.

They should have better communications with their customers and at lest give the appearance that they have any care of relationship with their client base.

The pricing and other things are just marketing decisions, although honestly, in my opinion not good ones
(they need to unify the game, and have a mass marketed loss leader version (i.e. kill team with prepainted models in target) of the game, then suck people in to hobby stores for the "bigger" game of "comat patrol, 40k battle, escalation, apoc, etc.).

It feels like a very short sighted company....which, to be honest that is may of them these days - always looking at next quarter's numbers.

Oh, and before anyone says "could you do better". Yes, yes I can....thats my day job...(I help struggling companies fix problem in marketing and supply chain - gw desperately could use my help...I would even give them a discount).

I gave them a 8. They are heavily investing in the product(s) I like (40K). They are doing this with a lot of fiction, supplements, models and rulesets. I like that they are updating all armies at a fast pace. This shows a real desire to grow their business and fan base. I know some of the stuff is wild but at least they are doing SOMETHING. I appreciate that. It takes a lot of time and money to do what they are doing. Agree with it or not they are adding variety to the game. I am not a competitive WAAC player so a lot of this competitive stuff doesn't affect me.
Yes it is true they are sales related reasons for all of this but that's what companies are supposed to do. Make money and grow. We shouldn't totally demean them for this. If they don't grow they die. That's business 101. Not everyone thinks this is good customer relations but I simply view it differently. They are adding variety and options for the consumer. I personally enjoy that.
In my experience customer service has been exceptional. They have replaced a expensive model for me that I bought at a LGS. If I have had rules questions they have answered them. I have no complaints about actual service.
Sure a couple things are whacky in the game. Look at the size of it however. No other miniature gaming company nearly has the rules scope or fan base they have. I know all of us armchair quarterbacks could do better but honestly could we? I don't know if that's true.
I respect that they weathered a global recession and for a luxury expense like ours that's a big deal.
I know we all would love for GW to put customers first. Sadly in the day and age of shareholders this isn't possible. Being a publicly traded company adds a inhuman nature to business. That allows me to look at it from a different light. I look at it like this. Are you actively investing in and expanding your product. That's a clear yes.

If 40k was any other company (say Hasbro got the rights or something) then I would be gone as a gw hobbyist

I am in two minds about GW.

On one hand, they produce models that are, without a doubt, among the best on the market in terms of actual gaming. Please note I'm not saying that there aren't some far, far better models out there (there are) but they are in general intended for display or painting rather than tabletop use. As far as hard-plastic, gaming-centric models go, GW are the best out there.

Their rules are also solid. Not perfect, but solid enough that anyone who isn't being deliberately pedantic and looking to gain an advantage based purely on 17 different uses for the word 'and' can use them to play a game. Similarly, balance is not an issue unless people are deliberately looking for the most powerful combination. To play the game in the way it seems clear GW intended, playing with two forces chosen because you like the units for whatever rather than because of stats, and interpreting the rules as the framework for a narrative rather than as a be-all-and-end-all of playing the game, then the rules are solid, balanced and function as well as they have to to facilitate a narrative.

On the other hand, there are many, many things I detest about the company. The complete unwillingness to listen to the player-base, the excessive prices and the policy of pretending they are the only gaming company out there are all things I dislike. There is no reason for the prices to be so high when there are companies producing models that are nearly as good for half the price. In an age where there are so many new gaming companies ignoring them rather than working with them (or hell, even acknowledging they exist) for the promotion of the hobby as a whole. The company seems to be as inwardly centred and insular as it gets.

In summary, I'd put it like this: The products they produce are great, the way they go about producing, releasing and selling them is flawed.

I rated them a 7. As far as companies go, GW is pretty good.
They make very good products and they are very good on the support sides of things. Their stores are really cool.

The only thing that prevents me from rating them higher is that they seem to put little effort in balancing their game. If they could turn 40k into a better balanced game, they would get at least a 9.

Also, people who complain about their high prices clearly have not grasped the basics of capitalism.

Store staff customer relations: 9
Store staff game knowledge: 7
Dealing with complaints about models etc: 7
Feedback with erratas rules clarifications: 4
Letting profit predictions affect games rules (eg: trying to sell models by making their rules broken): 3
Price of models: 2
Price of codecies, rulebook, or supplements: 1 (waterstones/wh smiths would laugh them out of the shop with those prices)
Discounts to non gw gaming stores: 5 (this would be 10 if prices were reasonable in the first place)
Rules writting (clarity): 7
Rules writing (balance): 4

Just as a note, I rate them poorly as I have exceptionally high standards for businesses; analyzing businesses and helping them become more successful is my professional vocation, so I have high standards in that area.

I just happen to be a gamer as well.

 Iron_Captain wrote:


Also, people who complain about their high prices clearly have not grasped the basics of capitalism.

Regarding this, I actually agree 100% That does not mean however, that I think their price structure is a good idea.

In my opinion, their marketing and brand strategy is not supporting their full potential for long term establishment and profitability.

They do appear to be doing some internal restructuring however, and this will be a good thing - their business lines are too disconnected from one another (black libray, forgeworld, etc.) and this will be a good thing I think for them and for gamers.

The biggest thing I think they are missing is that they are under estimating the elasticity in their product line (i.e. that they can lose customers if the prices get too high), and not recognizing that as they raise the perceived barrier of entry into the game, customer retention becomes more and more critical.

I gave them a 4, because their longevity speaks for itself, and their physical products are good, but the intellectual end of their company sucks hard.

I voted a 2, because I do not HATE them, but I would never ignore the player-base the way they seem to do. Ignoring the obvious reason this thread exists (the abortion of a codex the new Tyranids appears to be), if you owned/created a successful hobbyist game and people all over the world were constantly asking/begging you to clarify shoddily written rules in an effort to take the game out of the garage and into a competitive tournament setting, wouldn't you embrace that? Wouldn't you want to fix obvious flaws in your rules? Wouldn't you instinctively give examples of obviously tricky rule situations where needed? Wouldn't you be embarrassed to ever print rules saying something to the effect of "just roll off if you and your opponent can't agree on the rules of a situation."?

They need to realize that they're not just a model making company...the rules DO matter. Game balance matters. People are spending thousands of dollars on their product only to have the rug potentially pulled out from under them when a new set of rules arrive. It's a despicable way to guide a business...

I'm gonna give them a 7. I don't play any of their games so the cost of an army, balance issues, "codex creeps" or whatever don't concern me. I love their models and I do not think they're overpriced. Expensive, but not overpriced. And their customer service is absolutely faultless.

What bothers me is their lack of communication and their legal BS, among other little things.

I don't like GW as a company, but I also don't like Sony, Coca-Cola and Chiquita as companies. I like a lot of their products, and I try to stay clear of the ones I find crappy.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, people who complain about their high prices clearly have not grasped the basics of capitalism.

Capitalism is not about "the higher the price the better the business".

Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Demand for Warhammer 40000 products is extreme. Books from the Horus Heresy regularly make it into The New York Times Bestseller List, and everyone who likes science fiction or games has heard of it. The franchise could be as big as Star Wars or Marvel heroes, we could have movies with Hollywood stars on them. But we have not. Because most of the people out there are ex-players, people who got fed up on getting their favorite faction mistreated or retconned out of existence, people who got priced out of the game, people who got so pissed off by GW that abandoned the game they loved, no longer willing to support the company in any sense.

Many, many marketing and business decisions from GW are absolutely nonsensical, hilariously stupid and/or aimed on self-destruction. The only reason the company still exists is because the setting created by the original authors (who are no longer part of the company) is amazingly good, so we have die-hard fans able to pay preposterous amounts of money for low-quality products made in a rush with nearly zero effort by people without talent that care not for the quality of the final product, sometimes for over 20 years, investing countless hours and lots of money and love on the hobby.

Sometimes I feel like a drug addict when I buy their products, I feel shame for buying something that more probably than not will cause me more nerd rage than joy. They are living out of other people´s talent, cannibalizing whatever they can, and I fear every release, because every change they are doing is for the worse, and rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant omg my poor Tyranids what did they do oh the horror the horror.

Im in the #3 group. Only because they got me into the hobby and provided a cool game for me and my friends to enjoy. But prices, constant "what the hell?" decisions they make and the attitude of staff in the 2 local GW stores have pushed that rating right down.

I will only buy the codex and rule book off them as needed. i use 3rd party models for as much as i can (victoria miniatures and so on).

I cant support GW/FW and well, even their models can be kinda stupid (personal opinion), so all i like is the game itself and some models they produce.

The prices are too high for my taste, so i simply do not buy them and spend money elsewhere. I am about to save 600% buying my fantasy army from warlord miniatures for example.

If GW shuts down, i wont miss them. But i do appreciate that because of them i got into wargaming.

I gave them a 7. In general, I'm happy with them.

But. There's always a "but".

They have lost their way and probably won't last long - and it has nothing to do with "fugly models" or "unbalanced rules", it's just that they don't seem able to devise a long term strategy and stick to it. In the last two years GW has become more and more erratic, and that, my friends, is a business-killer.

IMHO they don't seem to be able to get a clear view of the market, their position in it and the demands of their customer base, coupled with an atrocious communications policy.

I went from personal experience and said 10, as there is nothing I can personally criticize.
Perfect customer service, nice local managers (Melbourne CBD's manager was the best, very friendly, welcoming and helpful), great models, frequent new content (I have only been in the hobby for a year).

Their "gets the kids because their parents will pay" is so pre-recession.

I voted 8.

I've been I'm the GW hobby for nearly 12 years now, and have extensive experience with other miniature lines (aviation, historical, etc).
On the back of this, and with the odd exception, GW does exactly what it sets out to do on it's Company statement- producing the highest quality miniatures. (I realise of course, this is entirely subjective).

In addition it has great customer service, strong market presence, enough variety to stay fresh, 2 Tolkein-esque Universes, and can cater to a wide range of fanbase: fluff to competitive, absolute beginner to expert Veteran.

My only gripe is that their prices are on the uncomfortable side, especially when you've watched them climb up through the years.

So, in my book, an 8 is well deserved.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, people who complain about their high prices clearly have not grasped the basics of capitalism.

There is capitalism, and then there is what is essentially price gouging. GW's is closer to the latter. It would not be so bad if there were starting armies priced reasonably, and then charge a premium for the bigger things that you don't use as often. Instead, they charge an arm and a leg for things that are needed, with price hikes that don't actually come with a valid reason.

I have recently discovered Mantic Games and KoW. For comparison I looked at their undead mega army, which looks to be about 8-10 units plus a war machine and a general; a fully playable army right out of the box (no idea of how many points or whatnot it is). This runs about $165 USD. I looked at the equivalent pricing of GW's Vampire Counts figures, and hit over $180 USD at just about three units; not even a playable army and even if you swapped out a unit for a general, that's still two units plus a commander, basically the bare minimum required to even attempt to play (and not even something that is expected to be fielded) versus an entire army. The quality looked roughly the same.

The difference in price for roughly the same quality is beyond ridiculous, and that's IMO the biggest problem with GW - they basically are pricing themselves out of their own market because veterans already have a lot of figures, so don't need many new pieces, and new players just can't justify paying $300+ to have the smallest possible force to even begin to play a game. The price isn't justified by anything other than them claiming they are a "luxury" hobby, but in the same breath they claim they are marketing to teenagers. On top of that their prices don't even make sense. One unit will be $30 for 10 models, another unit will be $50 for 10 models. It's like they price arbitrarily.

2/10

They consistently produce bad rules because they don't care enough to do better, and then act like they can just say "beer and pretzels" and ignore the problem. Their models are inconsistent in quality, and incredibly expensive. They act like driving away potential customers by ignoring entire player groups is a good way to run a company. They can't figure out even basic marketing principles. They don't understand that the internet exists and it's not 1980 anymore. And their legal department is a stunning example of incompetence and greed, spending millions of dollars to shut down free advertising and go after random authors for using "IP" that GW doesn't actually own. About the only thing GW does even remotely well as a company is giving decent customer service in replacing defective products, but they don't get very much credit for using replacements as a substitute for basic quality control.

5/10. I like their models and fluff. But! On one occasion I mail ordered some paints and they never arrived. I contacted them weekly for about three months and received no replies. Very disheartening. It's funny because I hear people praising their customer service all the time but my experience is the exact opposite.

Voted a 4...

rules are mostly clear and when they aren't FAQs are released, so thats good.
rules are not very balanced, several armies tend to dominate and worse there are many units in codexs that are just awful and nobody takes. (Helbrutes)
Many of the models look great, and only the older models dont look good, but they will be updated soon enough. I'm very pleased with how detailed they are.
The prices are downright painful.
The staff are very friendly and helpful.
The lawyers are aggressive and stamp out imagination and creativity

Overall a fun game but the company needs to get its stuff together.

I gave it a 7.
I love all of the GW games but I hate how expensive it is to play it.

6.

They're not an even company. Most companies, I'd be able to say that they are consistantly a certain score, but with GW they do really good things (jumped up their rate of new books, make excellent sculpts) and then they turn around and do insulting things (absolutely ridiculous price hikes and destructive rulesets that are made solely for cashflow like the force feeding of allies.)

I'm not gonna scream that "OMG GW ARE ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY!"
I'm a capitalist to a large degree and when I see a company doing things for money I see that as just and right.

But I feel like at some point you have to make something enjoyable too. I feel like a lot of the decisions lately have been very short term and over the long term it's going to destroy a game that used to be fun, and sooner or later we'll leave it.

They're abusing the large investment we've made into the game and are assuming it'll keep us. I don't think it will if the current trend continues. Fantasy hasn't been hit by this sledge. I hope it says that way.

I'm happy to pay the money- I just wish there was An open channel of communication. Even one way, from GW to us. I wish I knew their intent with many of their decisions.

3.

The current GW is not good.

The models are mostly fine, but everything just feels lazy and hideously overpriced.

The setting is great but it is a thing that has been established already. It does not make the company itself good.

It listens far too little to feedback and far too much to short-term $$$.

Also ^ that. They are put to shame by, say, those Eternal Crusade guys and their openness.

GW makes good quality products, but they are all ridiculously overpriced. Also, the rules seem quickly thrown together and unbalanced just to help GW sell their overpriced models.

They also make bad business decisions and only look at the short term.

I didnt want to start a separate thread for this but I just cant believe that tyranid warriors cost 51 dollars a box and SM centurions cost 78. That just seems to be ridiculous. That type of stuff irritates me as a customer. I love the hobby, but the company makes me constantly grit my teeth with this type of senselessness.

I gotta say this. Supply and demand man. Whether I like capitalism or not (I don't actually have an answer it has flaws like any other system although due to my upraising I tend to think it is better) matters not. Do I think that the models cost to much? Yes but I am a consumer. I must say, my problem comes not from the prices but the start-up prices. The rulebook isn't cheap and the need for a codex makes this only worse. Battleforces, building an army, paints, etc... it's all so much. It has a horrifically high entrance cost and that doesn't factor the imbalanced nature of the codices. Even with a perfect starting book there are so many traps and ancient armies that still grate along. It's a highly time intensive hobby that is difficult to get into.

Along with that, they are unreliable. Whilst not all their models are perfect, many are good. Not the best in existence but most models that are better are not really built for the table. The control on the fluff is admittedly sub par and inconsistent to an aggravating point that even that no fluff is canon gets complex and confusing, is terrible at front pr, can't get with the times, and tries to be the big guy in court cases and paranoid and zealous.

But then there is their PR whenever you need repairs or fixes and good gosh is it absolutely lovely! And for all its flaws 40k has a charm to its design and fluff.

I gave them an 8. When my Xmas order of a Ball Predator, Or Trukk, and new special effects paints were lost by fed ex they sent out a whole new order, raised it to next day shipping, AND threw in a FREE Bane blade (the one with 8 options). They did it quickly and was very friendly.

Great thread and some interesting comments. Just some points to throw in the mixer:

The people saying about the expensive prices, what is you business background to criticise pricing policy? Do you buy Coke or Pepsi sold for a 2000% mark up and complain to them!

To the ones saying the overzealously protect their intellectual rights, why would they not they are a business!

Tand to all the people saying that there should be a way for them to listen to the gamers. HOW exactly, we can't agree on anything in on thread let alone getting the whole of Dakka to agree. You obviously have never seen anything that has been designed by a committee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh I gave them a 10 by the way. I earn a good wage so if i want to spend £30 on a model i can. I do things because i enjoy them, if i don't i wouldn't do them. I enjoy the setting and playing for fun against a couple of mates.

It is a lot cheaper hobby than golf or following a football team!

Because there is such a thing as price gouging. I understand that no one is forcing me to buy models, but the fact of the matter is this game was expensive 10 years ago when I first started buying minis. Now, the models have more than doubled in some cases while the materials have become undeniable cheaper.

You used to be able to get boxes of minis for 12.50. Now that doesn't even get you a single model in some cases. That's pretty absurd.

I enjoy painting, but I feel like I've never been able to really get into playing the game because I can never get a solid group of people to spend the time and money. Its indefensible when you talk prices.

I don't get the point of having a 10 there (and neither a 1 or even 2 honestly). Then again I can't think of really a single company that is perfect nor absolutely terrible in every way.

In response to you madd_leeroy. Perhaps I don't have a background in it.... but I have to ask, how is making this game more expensive to start up good for the company? 50 dollar this 80 dollar that I can live with. But when starting the game costs a minimum of 100 dollars and the 100 dollars doesn't have balanced armies and aren't usually that great, and are 2 specific armies, and really not enough dice, I do throw question to it. Also some of the quality of brushes aren't so grand. It's more of the entry cost gets higher and higher and where does it stop. Now maybe I am absolutely wrong, but I can't help but feel that there are certain prices that will make most walk away. How is it that the rulebook unless bought in the 100 dollar starter box costs is a giant awkwardly huge $74.50 dollar book for just the rules. Then you need to buy the code for 49.50. This isn't even thinking about buying the models for the army! That isn't chump change even if it isn't the most expensive hobby.

Also I'm talking they try to protect intellectual rights they actually have no right to. The chapterhouse trials showed a lot of intellectual property GW claimed to have was anything but true. Oh and don't forget where GW sued some random book for being titled Spots the Space Marine: Defense of the Fiddler. Here's the thing GW, you don't own SM. It is a bland term that too many others have right to.

madd_leeroy wrote:
The people saying about the expensive prices, what is you business background to criticise pricing policy?

The common sense of realizing that it's not good for the long-term health of the game when a new player has to spend $500-1000 just to start playing the game.

To the ones saying the overzealously protect their intellectual rights, why would they not they are a business!

Because GW's "defense" of their intellectual "rights" goes way beyond what is necessary to protect their business interests. Sending C&D letters over some random author's use of "space marine" as if GW actually owns the concept (and no, they don't own it) accomplishes nothing besides damaging their own reputation. Sending C&D letters to fan sites that post leaked information that is legal under "fair use" laws accomplishes nothing besides throwing away free marketing hype and damaging their own reputation. Suing third-party bits manufacturers over IP they don't actually own the rights to accomplishes nothing besides throwing away a million dollars and damaging their own reputation. And none of these actions have any real legal merit behind them, it's entirely abuse of the legal system to send "we can pay for lawyers and you can't" orders to claim privileges that they aren't entitled to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VanHallan wrote:
Because there is such a thing as price gouging.

Yes, but it doesn't have anything to do with GW. Price gouging only applies to situations where someone is selling essential items at a huge markup, such as selling bottled water for $100 a bottle in the aftermath of a natural disaster. The concept can not possibly apply to GW since they produce nothing but luxury items, and nobody would suffer any harm by being unable to afford their products.

8 for me.

The product is fantastic, I really don't think there is a better model out there than I've seen from them. Price is affordable in my eyes, and I'm a firm believer of you get what you pay for. The local store is very good, very helpful and fosters a good community spirit, and the manager plays regularly at the the local club as well and is well liked. Rules are wide ranged, and as a casual player I like the options to play different themed games, whether it be an attack on a fortification, a large force against a massive unit, or a straight up fight. The fluff is brilliant as well, can't praise that enough and is years ahead of any other.

Negatives; well the White Dwarf isn't as good as it once was, and not a huge fan of all these dataslates ( however there are exceptions, Cypher was very good) but that's my only small gripes.

I started the hobby with a Squat army in 1st before I get the usual comments

VanHallan wrote:
Because there is such a thing as price gouging. I understand that no one is forcing me to buy models, but the fact of the matter is this game was expensive 10 years ago when I first started buying minis. Now, the models have more than doubled in some cases while the materials have become undeniable cheaper.

You used to be able to get boxes of minis for 12.50. Now that doesn't even get you a single model in some cases. That's pretty absurd.

I enjoy painting, but I feel like I've never been able to really get into playing the game because I can never get a solid group of people to spend the time and money. Its indefensible when you talk prices.

Sorry VanHallen price Gouging must be an american phrase, i haven't heard it in the UK. You are missing the point, you are saying that prices have gone up, well yes name me some form of entertainment hat hasn't over the last 10 years. Proportionately is playing GW any more expensive than watching a football team? To go and watch Chelsea it costs me and my son £200 for the tickets and £150 travel and accommodation for an afternoon of entertainment. £30 a month buys me a new codex or box of figures. To play golf here at a good club costs £50 a month in fees alone, plus dress, clubs etc. To join a gym is £30 a month etc etc.

GW are a business first and foremost and if you look at their profits they seem to be a well run sustainable business.

I voted a 1 to offset the three 10's :S GW employees on here no doubt.

Honestly I don't know where to judge.

The GW that I once knew had fairer prices (still overpriced tho), better care for rules and balancing, and shops that created a friendly atmosphere and it seemed they took time into picking sociable nerds to manage their stores.


The current GW is pretty much the opposite, in every possible way, on the furthest end of the spectrum as well.

Currently I'd have to give them a 3, they do some things right but they run a company where you kind of need to do ALL the things right (or at least well), or the things you did right don't work either because everything else is wrong.

Price gouging is defined as charging way more than something is worth, it's just typically used in the context of essential items and after disasters.

It wouldn't be so bad if it was paying a bit for the big centerpiece models like Wraithknights but actually getting started was a reasonable cost. As I said it seems other companies can do this (Warlord and Mantic Games) so either GW is greedy, GW got robbed when they paid for their plastic molds, or the other companies are taking a profit hit by selling for less (doubt it as IIRC both these companies have ex GW people there so surely they know that they could sell at a higher price). Again when $165 will get you an entire army plus rule book from Mantic and $120 is needed just for the rules from GW before you buy a single model there is something VERY wrong somewhere. GW was always a bit pricy but at least before it was fairly reasonable compared to absolutely ridiculous now. $40 for the same ten guys that was $25 before and are roughly the same quality? What exactly are you paying the extra for? Apart from a few minor things the current Space Marine plastics are the same quality as the ones released in 3rd edition at a lower price.

The fact that so many people here are complaining about the prices really is a bit absurd. Not only is it capitalism at work, but there are online stores that give 10, 15, and even 20% off all purchases. Add in the fact that most of the price hikes were made in a time where Bitz sellers were springing up everywhere, and it's no wonder GW felt the need to increase prices. Prices people STILL paid.

The only reason I pay the actual GW price at all is to support my FLGS, which is owned by a friend. Before he opened the place, I purchased almost everything on Amazon, Ebay, or some other site where I could find great discounts.

Gw is getting a lot of things wrong, but I doubt maximizing profit is one of them. It's hard to blame a business for making money...

The problem with the pricing is not the fact they are maximising profit, it is the fact that there are other companies out there doing comparable things in wargaming with a much lower cost.

Take mantic for example. A lot of their models are on par with GW in quality, and are half the price. Their rules are available free, where GW charges £45 for a rulebook. They run sales and offers, where GW don't. The end result is that although GW is financially more successful, they lose the goodwill of the customer, whereas a large proportion of those who have had dealings with Mantic are willing to support and promote the company, which in the long run far better than the GW policy of 'take all we can get, give nothing back'.

 Paradigm wrote:
The problem with the pricing is not the fact they are maximising profit, it is the fact that there are other companies out there doing comparable things in wargaming with a much lower cost.

Take mantic for example. A lot of their models are on par with GW in quality, and are half the price. Their rules are available free, where GW charges £45 for a rulebook. They run sales and offers, where GW don't. The end result is that although GW is financially more successful, they lose the goodwill of the customer, whereas a large proportion of those who have had dealings with Mantic are willing to support and promote the company, which in the long run far better than the GW policy of 'take all we can get, give nothing back'.

Exactly. The problem isn't the prices period, it's that either they are lying or just greedy, and they constantly do it for poor reasons or often no reason at all. It's one thing to actually charge a price increase for a valid reason, it's another to just arbitrarily decide hey we can raise prices $10 and offer the same thing as before, especially when GW is the only company that does it (and that seems to be more because they can get away with it, and know that most people are locked into them). That's pretty much the definition of price gouging, even if it doesn't fall under that category legally.

 Paradigm wrote:
The problem with the pricing is not the fact they are maximising profit, it is the fact that there are other companies out there doing comparable things in wargaming with a much lower cost.

Take mantic for example. A lot of their models are on par with GW in quality, and are half the price. Their rules are available free, where GW charges £45 for a rulebook. They run sales and offers, where GW don't. The end result is that although GW is financially more successful, they lose the goodwill of the customer, whereas a large proportion of those who have had dealings with Mantic are willing to support and promote the company, which in the long run far better than the GW policy of 'take all we can get, give nothing back'.

Kudos to Mantic. Maybe one day companies like them will unseat GW. In the meantime, we're all still here complaining about Games-Workshop, so there must be something to this 40k game that we're interested in protecting.

Hi all.
I gave GW plc a 2 out of ten.
Peregrine summed up my feelings in his post.So I wont repeat it here.

 Voidwraith wrote:
The fact that so many people here are complaining about the prices really is a bit absurd. Not only is it capitalism at work, but there are online stores that give 10, 15, and even 20% off all purchases. Add in the fact that most of the price hikes were made in a time where Bitz sellers were springing up everywhere, and it's no wonder GW felt the need to increase prices. Prices people STILL paid.

The only reason I pay the actual GW price at all is to support my FLGS, which is owned by a friend. Before he opened the place, I purchased almost everything on Amazon, Ebay, or some other site where I could find great discounts.

Gw is getting a lot of things wrong, but I doubt maximizing profit is one of them. It's hard to blame a business for making money...

Not hard for me.

 Voidwraith wrote:
It's hard to blame a business for making money...

It sure is. It is, however, not hard to blame a business for the way it's making money.

A five. I can excuse the corporate greed and outrageous prices, but I can't forgive the insanely bad codex balance. The new nid book especially comes to mind.

As a company - 10/10.

Popular, long lived, really got to grips with charging lots for such a small amount of product. healthy turn over of product - to wit - codex and rule-set changes meaning they can keep fleecing players for their hard earned.

But no, really, they score a middling 6 or a 7 for old times sake.

madd_leeroy wrote:

VanHallan wrote:
Because there is such a thing as price gouging. I understand that no one is forcing me to buy models, but the fact of the matter is this game was expensive 10 years ago when I first started buying minis. Now, the models have more than doubled in some cases while the materials have become undeniable cheaper.

You used to be able to get boxes of minis for 12.50. Now that doesn't even get you a single model in some cases. That's pretty absurd.

I enjoy painting, but I feel like I've never been able to really get into playing the game because I can never get a solid group of people to spend the time and money. Its indefensible when you talk prices.

Sorry VanHallen price Gouging must be an american phrase, i haven't heard it in the UK. You are missing the point, you are saying that prices have gone up, well yes name me some form of entertainment hat hasn't over the last 10 years. Proportionately is playing GW any more expensive than watching a football team? To go and watch Chelsea it costs me and my son £200 for the tickets and £150 travel and accommodation for an afternoon of entertainment. £30 a month buys me a new codex or box of figures. To play golf here at a good club costs £50 a month in fees alone, plus dress, clubs etc. To join a gym is £30 a month etc etc.

GW are a business first and foremost and if you look at their profits they seem to be a well run sustainable business.

Let's talk about apples to apples. Comparing this hobby to a sporting event or a concert is hardly the same thing. You take a compnay that sells a product, such as a box of minis and another company that sells something else. What do you want to pick? Cars? Chocolate bars? Soft Drinks? Fast food?

All of those products have risen in price over the last 10 years, but they have not DOUBLED in price. 30 dollars for a single plastic librarian is absurd. I bought pewter Blood Angels special characters for around 12-15 dollars when I first started this hobby.

Now, those same models are made out of cheaper, flat out LOUSY material and they cost almost twice as much. For what? capitalism? no. In a proper capitalist system competition drives companies and consumers to find the MOST appropriate price. Not the maximum profit for the company. This is simply bad business and unjustifiable pricing. The fact that so many of you don't see it that way is a real laugh.

I play guitar, and let me tell you, Gibson makes a VERY expensive guitar. there are LOADS of companies that make quality instruments for less, but people still pay for the Gibson name. BUT even Gibson prices dont double in 10 years. I bought a les paul for 1700 dollars in 2000. Today that same guitar will go for about 1900, maybe as high as 2100.

But if they jacked that price to 3500 or some other absurd amount they'd lose market share, which is something GW doesn't have to worry about.... yet.

The price system is awful, regardless of who pays the piper. And its awful because they aren't justifying it in any legitimate terms, as others have said.

I gave them a 7. Their products are fantastic, and their staff are great (although they can be a bit pushy, keep trying to sell me stuff. I know it's their job, but if I wanted to get something I would).

However their prices are rocketing beyond reason (although this is understandable to a certain extent I suppose) and their rules atm are perhaps a bit too unbalanced or poorly thought out. It feels like extortion in short, and I think that if they're driving away even their hardcore fans from buying from them, then they're going to face problems in the future.

 StarTrotter wrote:
I don't get the point of having a 10 there (and neither a 1 or even 2 honestly). Then again I can't think of really a single company that is perfect nor absolutely terrible in every way.

.

I put 10 so its a real "what out of 10 would you rate it".
I didnt expect anyone to rate it a 10




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh also just to throw my thoughts in, the biggest reason i gave gw my score is because of how crappy the rules are becoming.
I mean, tyranids for example. what the heck is gw thinking? For one small example, the tyranid rippers. No one used them before, and so gw decided to make them more popular by.... INCREASING THE POINTS!!!!!! just rediculous.

8.

When it comes to the gaming industry, most companies focus either too hard on the 'gaming' aspect (TSR, Third Eye) and either go bankrupt or get acquired, or too hard on the 'industry,' and ignore game quality in favor of the almighty dollar.

Games Workshop is, bar none, the best company I've ever seen at walking the tightrope between the two. Their rules set, while not perfect, is constantly evolving, leaving each edition better than the last. The game is, while expensive, a game where your models are perpetually useful, (in all but a handful of rare circumstances) and edition/codex updates occur with enough time lapse to be reasonable, but swiftly enough (in most cases) to satisfy. Their customer support for their products simply cannot be beat.

Do I have issues? Certainly. I wish many of their older kits were in plastic, I wish they'd put out FAQs for the hardcover codexes, and of course I wish they were cheaper. Still, good company, especially compared to some of the others out there.

@Jimsolo.
'or too hard on the 'industry,' and ignore game quality in favor of the almighty dollar.'

You do not think this applies to GW plc? (Falling sales volumes for the last 8 years , and their ONLY responce is to increase product prices over the rate of inflation to make up the losses ).

They don't seem to care about how supply and demand work either. S&D would be - see sales dropping, lower prices while still maintaining profit. GW logic - sales dropping, raise prices for everything and especially the things people buy to offset the reduced sales elsewhere and keep the insane profit margins.

I did not rate is highly as I can't think of a single thing GW go that is good that other companies don't do so much better but I can think of a lot of terrible things GW, and only GW, do.

WayneTheGame wrote:
They don't seem to care about how supply and demand work either. S&D would be - see sales dropping, lower prices while still maintaining profit. GW logic - sales dropping, raise prices for everything and especially the things people buy to offset the reduced sales elsewhere and keep the insane profit margins.

That works. If you’re losing sales because you’re pricing people out, or that your competitors are undercutting.

If it’s not one of those things, then lowering price does nothing but lower your profit margins further, until you don't have one. Maybe they had a more informed possition on why there are less sales.

Certainly from the earnings report it seems as a company they have taken the correct approach to keeping the business running rather than the incorrect one. We can speculate. Sometimes desicions made to float the business are not always good for the customer, indeed when your facing needing more income from somewhere the customer will never win, whichever way the deficite is managed it will eventually impact the customer someway, some are more subtle than others.

 da001 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, people who complain about their high prices clearly have not grasped the basics of capitalism.

Capitalism is not about "the higher the price the better the business".

Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Demand for Warhammer 40000 products is extreme. Books from the Horus Heresy regularly make it into The New York Times Bestseller List, and everyone who likes science fiction or games has heard of it. The franchise could be as big as Star Wars or Marvel heroes, we could have movies with Hollywood stars on them. But we have not. Because most of the people out there are ex-players, people who got fed up on getting their favorite faction mistreated or retconned out of existence, people who got priced out of the game, people who got so pissed off by GW that abandoned the game they loved, no longer willing to support the company in any sense.

Many, many marketing and business decisions from GW are absolutely nonsensical, hilariously stupid and/or aimed on self-destruction. The only reason the company still exists is because the setting created by the original authors (who are no longer part of the company) is amazingly good, so we have die-hard fans able to pay preposterous amounts of money for low-quality products made in a rush with nearly zero effort by people without talent that care not for the quality of the final product, sometimes for over 20 years, investing countless hours and lots of money and love on the hobby.

Sometimes I feel like a drug addict when I buy their products, I feel shame for buying something that more probably than not will cause me more nerd rage than joy. They are living out of other people´s talent, cannibalizing whatever they can, and I fear every release, because every change they are doing is for the worse, and rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant omg my poor Tyranids what did they do oh the horror the horror.

I'd point out though that them getting onto the NY Times best seller list is largely due to manipulation. It's made by the amount of books ordered by the store, not by the amount of copies bought by the public consumer. BL prints a small finite amount of copies and regularly stops printing titles altogether for no reason other than trying to make bookstores buy large amounts of their copies so they actually have a body of the works to sell.

As for GW, I rate them a 2, for being a largely suicidal business that will die hard if any model company comes around that can rival their share of the market and GW doesn't finally smack some sense into itself and get its sh*t together, because they're in a rightly sorry state as of now and wouldn't last long against a rival business. Their products are hilariously marked up over their value and either they are suffering horrendous losses we don't know about.... or the more likely and they're simply gunning for short term profits, which is bad for long-term longevity. Their phobia of modern technology doesn't help either with them seeming to do little to invest in actually pushing W40K into the public view rather than simply rely on their fans. They don't push. They'll get wiped out by any competent company that knows what its' doing that comes along with a better product. The only thing I really see keeping GW afloat for any future duration is the iconic nature of W40K, which is just hard to fight. It doesn't matter how good your customer service was. Even now I'm worried about investing into a product that might be dead as the dodo withing a decade as technology marches on. GW just doesn't seem to be smart. They don't take real risks. They don't invest. They simply do the only thing they apparently 'know' how to do and constantly hike up the price. And I hate it because I love W40K and would hate it to befall as miserable fate because GW fethed up.

GW hiking prices up isn't capitalist people. That's simply the business practice of an idiot. A smart capitalist company invests. They invest their license, they invest their name, and they invest their resources. For example, even a mediocre blockbuster W40K movie would RAKE in a new audience and help as extremely profitable marketing. Expanding their license would also be profitable. It's sad that it's easier for me to buy a Minecraft T-shirt than it is to buy a W40K T-shirt made by the company owning the IP.

Also, of the numerous things GW really just has to stop doing, it's special editions. Just.... no. They're counter-intuitive and in the end limit prices.

Once we get some more votes ( im thinking 300) ill average them out and see where gw is at.

Just looked up the Glassdoor reviews on GW and they arent much better to their employees than they are to their customers. Its kind of sad really.

 Paradigm wrote:
I am in two minds about GW.

On one hand, they produce models that are, without a doubt, among the best on the market in terms of actual gaming. Please note I'm not saying that there aren't some far, far better models out there (there are) but they are in general intended for display or painting rather than tabletop use. As far as hard-plastic, gaming-centric models go, GW are the best out there.

Their rules are also solid. Not perfect, but solid enough that anyone who isn't being deliberately pedantic and looking to gain an advantage based purely on 17 different uses for the word 'and' can use them to play a game. Similarly, balance is not an issue unless people are deliberately looking for the most powerful combination. To play the game in the way it seems clear GW intended, playing with two forces chosen because you like the units for whatever rather than because of stats, and interpreting the rules as the framework for a narrative rather than as a be-all-and-end-all of playing the game, then the rules are solid, balanced and function as well as they have to to facilitate a narrative.

On the other hand, there are many, many things I detest about the company. The complete unwillingness to listen to the player-base, the excessive prices and the policy of pretending they are the only gaming company out there are all things I dislike. There is no reason for the prices to be so high when there are companies producing models that are nearly as good for half the price. In an age where there are so many new gaming companies ignoring them rather than working with them (or hell, even acknowledging they exist) for the promotion of the hobby as a whole. The company seems to be as inwardly centred and insular as it gets.

In summary, I'd put it like this: The products they produce are great, the way they go about producing, releasing and selling them is flawed.

This chap saved me typing out my thoughts.

They got a 7 from me; but that is on the basis on me as a customer of GW PLC.

As a gamer who is getting his feet wet out of the GW bubble, they get a rating of a 2 or a 1 depending upon how harsh we feel.

The game is getting creaky, clunky and due to some of the 40k community a right pain in the arse to play due to silly combos etc.

Moreover many seem to blatantly assume things with regards to what type of match they want to play without asking. Warmahordes is superior in that regard due to the infamous page 5 which creates a level playing ground, so expect the cheese but played honourably not by some smug git with an axe to grind.

Other than the gripes I have stated GW still knock the socks off the competition in terms of model quality. You cannot fault them there, that must be said.

They need a kick up the backside really...

I voted a 4.

Great models and settings, usually good customer service.

Poor balance is a serious problem for game companies, and they barely seem to care.

I think the current rules for both systems are overly complicated.

The prices are at a point where I will no longer start a new army. Army Books/Codex prices are at a point where I will no longer buy rules for armies I don't play (and in the past, I would then be tempted to start them).

 Paradigm wrote:
I am in two minds about GW.

On one hand, they produce models that are, without a doubt, among the best on the market in terms of actual gaming. Please note I'm not saying that there aren't some far, far better models out there (there are) but they are in general intended for display or painting rather than tabletop use. As far as hard-plastic, gaming-centric models go, GW are the best out there.

Their rules are also solid. Not perfect, but solid enough that anyone who isn't being deliberately pedantic and looking to gain an advantage based purely on 17 different uses for the word 'and' can use them to play a game. Similarly, balance is not an issue unless people are deliberately looking for the most powerful combination. To play the game in the way it seems clear GW intended, playing with two forces chosen because you like the units for whatever rather than because of stats, and interpreting the rules as the framework for a narrative rather than as a be-all-and-end-all of playing the game, then the rules are solid, balanced and function as well as they have to to facilitate a narrative.

On the other hand, there are many, many things I detest about the company. The complete unwillingness to listen to the player-base, the excessive prices and the policy of pretending they are the only gaming company out there are all things I dislike. There is no reason for the prices to be so high when there are companies producing models that are nearly as good for half the price. In an age where there are so many new gaming companies ignoring them rather than working with them (or hell, even acknowledging they exist) for the promotion of the hobby as a whole. The company seems to be as inwardly centred and insular as it gets.

In summary, I'd put it like this: The products they produce are great, the way they go about producing, releasing and selling them is flawed.

You stole my thoughts. I fully concur.

I voted 2, only because they aren't Comcast.

This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

With 5 being a company i have no feelings towards at all, i rate gw a 3. Possibly my feelings towards them have mellowed somewhat since i stopped buying anything other than a couple of updated codexes from them in the last 3 or so years.

I gave them an 8. -1 point for prices, -1 point for lack of attention to FAQs. They have THE best customer service I have ever encountered in any company. I personally love the quality of their models (minus finecast, but that's easily avoided for me). Their rules are fine for me. Yes there are mistakes, but when you are trying to balance and keep track of hundreds upon hundreds of rules for a game that constantly has unique scenarios, you are bound to miss some things. Their stores are amazingly friendly and have constant events for the community, which is great. But most importantly, despite their business decisions and their rules imperfections, they have provided me with a hobby that I have sunk countless hours into without regret. For that I will always be grateful.

It's obviously not a horrendous company if people keep coming back to it. People just like to bltch. There's no perfect product out there... They make a cool product that has millions hooked and I enjoy collecting, painting, and playing with their models.

 sing your life wrote:
This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

Well i think that it is intersting to here people opinions. You dont ahve to vote or look at this page.

7.

Because I wanted to subjectively give them praise for their miniatures and customer service while at the same time giving them gak rating for their rules and prices.

Here's the thing about a 10-point scale: it's a sham.

1-7 : BAD.
8-10: GOOD.

That's how a 10-point scale works when evaluating it. It could also be evaluated as
1-5: BAD
6-8: Average
9-10: GOOD.

But a <7 is always a really bad score for a business. Really really gak score. You don't want 7, really, 'cause that means you are failing as a business. Which is why I gave them a 7

RE: Rules, I would rather have simpler and more abstract rules that allowed for flexibility in individual groups to add things but not bogging down the game with dozens of rules. If they really want to emphasize "forging the narrative" then that should be the goal.

I keep bringing it up but look at Kings of War's rules. They are extremely simple, but in that simplicity becomes a very good framework for creating your own special rules or scenarios that fit your league or campaign. You can easily, for example, create a custom scenario or have some kind of bonus given to a unit to represent something without having explicit rules state what you can and can't do. Standardize rules for tournaments, but keep them basic and abstract for modification in campaigns.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

Well i think that it is intersting to here people opinions. You dont ahve to vote or look at this page.

However, as I explained the opinions on the thread aren't taking into account the full picture with GW.

I did not vote in the poll for this reason.

I gave a 5. My basis for lowering the score was purely money. I find GW is too greedy. The models are overpriced, when a codex comes out it gets another 50 dollar supplement in a few months time that really should just be part of the dex. The magazine issue is a blatant money grab. Cycling models out so you have to buy the new thing is kind of a wash because you get new models to use but you lose old ones, still fiscally motivated but that's to be expected with a new dex. In fact I would be pissed if I got a new dex and no models. It comes down to being to greedy. I don't care about the rules, they are good and for the most part everybody is still playing and having fun so we should really all shut up about them. But Internet traffic would grind to a halt if nobody complained on here anymore.

 sing your life wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

Well i think that it is intersting to here people opinions. You dont ahve to vote or look at this page.

However, as I explained the opinions on the thread aren't taking into account the full picture with GW.

I did not vote in the poll for this reason.

It doesnt matter. Their goal is to service customers for a profit. If they fail to provide customer satisfaction then as a business they will fail... eventually. We dont have to know everything about a person to dislike them, same with a company. Otherwise we couldnt dislike any company at all besides our own if (if you own one). We are stating our opinions as customers who have been serviced by GW for (most of us) years. If we arent happy then there is a reason for it, which is stated in the opinions of those in the poll.

one positive thing about GW is it is giving other companies a lot of lee way (through pricing) to produce their own minis and sometimes games. In my opinion GW is slowly having to share more of its market. Which is great.

Voidwraith wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
The problem with the pricing is not the fact they are maximising profit, it is the fact that there are other companies out there doing comparable things in wargaming with a much lower cost.

Take mantic for example. A lot of their models are on par with GW in quality, and are half the price. Their rules are available free, where GW charges £45 for a rulebook. They run sales and offers, where GW don't. The end result is that although GW is financially more successful, they lose the goodwill of the customer, whereas a large proportion of those who have had dealings with Mantic are willing to support and promote the company, which is in the long run far better than the GW policy of 'take all we can get, give nothing back'.

Kudos to Mantic. Maybe one day companies like them will unseat GW. In the meantime, we're all still here complaining about Games-Workshop, so there must be something to this 40k game that we're interested in protecting.

Please don't think I'm saying that 40k should just go away. As a universe, I love it, as a game, I love it, and as far as the models go, I love it. Like I said in my first post in this thread, the problem is not with the product at all, but with how it is handled by the company behind it. In a world where more and more companies are producing GW-quality products at half the price, while GW screw the customers for every last penny, they are not really defendale as a business from a customer's point of view. I love 40k, but I wish it was handled better.

To be honest, unless there is some serious change at GW, I give them another 5-7 years as market leaders before Mantic, Freamforge or someone else takes over. In the face of new competition, GW are going to have to step up their game.

sing your life wrote:This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

Fair point. However, I would argue that how the customers see the company is just as important as how someone with a background in business sees it. Ultimately, the success of GW or any other company depends on customers continuing to spend their money there rather than leaving the market or going to the competition, and the customers will only do that if they see the company as competent, effective, and actually providing something in the way that they want. It doesn't matter what GW are doing from a business POV if what the customers see is a faceless, greedy and stubborn corporation.

I'm into a lot of nerdy things (video games, comic books, etc.) and they're easily the worst recreational activities company I've come across by a mile. The greed is expected but they transcend corporate greed, are constantly trying to literally scam customers rather than simply rip them off, have zero interest in customer interaction, and most of all seem to have a disdain for the customers themselves. After being heavily invested in Marvel comics for the last few months, it was refreshing to see a company that actually has a modicum of fondness for its customer base and doesn't actively try to scam me every week.

They make EA seem absolutely saintly. I wish GW nothing but financial harm. I know it's considered le edgy here to defend them, but that's just outside of reality.

So it is a table top company that has a well established game system and a very wide variety of some of the best looking plastic minis around. They also sell some decent paints, but some rubbish hobby tools.

The pricing is bad, but I buy at a discount, which makes it OK. 10 Plaguebearers are $21 where I go, instead of about $30. The discount kept in mind, as I doubt I could ever buy straight up prices again, I like GW.

So the good: Long standing pretty unique game with a good core set of rules. Amazing models that provide a lot of entertainment to assemble and paint, and HUGE amounts of lore and backstory on just about everything in the game.

The Bad: Prices, without discount it would be far too much .Lack of ability to fess up to their own mistakes. Most new codex have at least one glaring error, or issue with common sense that has the players frustrated. I feel like GW could easily have some play testers and the author get together and ask, "What did you intend with this?" This also brings me to the huge gap GW puts between itself and it's fans/consumers. I feel like there is never direct communication with GW or any authors. This bugs the hell out of me.

Possible improvements: I have a vague idea of where GW is going, and where 6th is going (40k) and I like it. We are seeing some boxed sets that are actually good deals, and we are seeing a good release of codex in a timely manor. No more 6-8 months of nothing, then boom, new codex.

I voted a 5. Still think their minis are some of the best in gaming, but their rules are terrible. They've had two and a half decades to get their rules sorted and they still can't do it. So strike one. I love the background and concepts of the game universe and where the various forces fit in and the bleak dark outlook of the future, but have been rather disappointed with the way certain aspects of it have been implemented. Strike two. Their customer service when you have a product problem is always stellar, with replacements on their way incredibly fast. Unfortunately other aspects of their customer service is not as good, like stripping the staffing down in US GW stores so far that I just don't even bother to go to my local GW anymore. The one man store is too far away for me to make the trek to it only to find the store closed AGAIN during the posted open hours. Ridiculous. Also they continue to raise prices to a premium without providing a similar premium raise in quality or content. $50 for a new codex? OK. Nice pretty book with a hardback cover. OK. Only problem is that I don't buy a book like that to be pretty. I buy it based on the content and the content of the newer books is just not even remotely improved to warrant nearly doubing the price. I can't even believe anyone buys the "Collector's Editions" of the new books either, but to each his own. Also minor kit expansions that lead to premium price increases is also annoying. Like upgrading the 'nid warriors to add a few extra weapon options and shooting the price up, or $50 for *5* Sternguard models. $50 used to be the cost for 5 terminator sized minis, but now those are even higher than that. Strike 3, 4 and so on.

I think I padded my score upwards a bit because of the past history I've had with the game and the company. I have been an avid reader of White Dwarf from around issue 15 or so. I started with WFB 3rd edition and Rogue Trader along with Adeptus Titanticus. At this stage, though, I am planning my exit as a GW customer. I am finishing up the final units in my ork army (from ebay when possible) and waiting on a couple 6th edition codex updates and then I am done buying from GW for good. I'll keep playing and using all the minis I have for all the games of their's that I still play, but the prices are crazy, and new editions just to make more money without making the game any better have just done it for me.

Skriker

GW needs to abandon the whole "collector" thing.

We are gamers, 40k is a game - thats what drives sales.

They can keep calling us collectors as an excuse to why the game part is not more solid, or they don't acknowledge events, but to keep calling us collectors - is either them not knowing their customers (i.e. we are gamers) or them thinking they can fool us (which is also not knowing their customers).

If this really was just a "collecting" hobby - then no one would need more than 1 of a model, much less 100 of them.

Gave them a 7 havent done anything horrible the models are extremely good quality the game rules are playable but not great this release schedule is pretty steller though.

davethepak wrote:
GW needs to abandon the whole "collector" thing.

We are gamers, 40k is a game - thats what drives sales.

They can keep calling us collectors as an excuse to why the game part is not more solid, or they don't acknowledge events, but to keep calling us collectors - is either them not knowing their customers (i.e. we are gamers) or them thinking they can fool us (which is also not knowing their customers).

If this really was just a "collecting" hobby - then no one would need more than 1 of a model, much less 100 of them.

Speak for yourself. A vocal proportion of hobbyists are 'gamers', but many are collectors, painters, background enthusiasts, etc.

GW, as a company focuses on being a model company, with the games being an added incentive. Nearly all of their literature states and supports this position, and its a sensible position to take- even if people drift away from Warhammer as a game, the interest in scale models is likely to remain. Its one of the main reasons their product has continued to endure- dropping it would be the worst decision they could make.

 sing your life wrote:
This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

It is a poll on *customer* rating...all you need to rate as a customer is BE A CUSTOMER. So the poll is perfectly valid. You don't need an MBA to have an opinion on whether GW is holding up its end of the bargain towards its customerbase.

Skriker

 CadianXV wrote:

davethepak wrote:
GW needs to abandon the whole "collector" thing.

We are gamers, 40k is a game - thats what drives sales.

They can keep calling us collectors as an excuse to why the game part is not more solid, or they don't acknowledge events, but to keep calling us collectors - is either them not knowing their customers (i.e. we are gamers) or them thinking they can fool us (which is also not knowing their customers).

If this really was just a "collecting" hobby - then no one would need more than 1 of a model, much less 100 of them.

Speak for yourself. A vocal proportion of hobbyists are 'gamers', but many are collectors, painters, background enthusiasts, etc.

GW, as a company focuses on being a model company, with the games being an added incentive. Nearly all of their literature states and supports this position, and its a sensible position to take- even if people drift away from Warhammer as a game, the interest in scale models is likely to remain. Its one of the main reasons their product has continued to endure- dropping it would be the worst decision they could make.

And how much revenue does "collecting" bring in?

Don't get me wrong, I love the fluff, and the models. Heck I am planning on starting a lizard man army just because I love dinosaurs.
IF the rules are good...I will buy a whole army and paint it up. If they are bad, I might buy one model, and put it on my shelf.

You can be a gamer who is also a "many are collectors, painters, background enthusiasts, etc." They are not mutually exclusive.

But a collector does not need three heldrakes or five riptides or 60 marines - he buys significantly less - and its "games workshop" not "fantasy dollhouse collectors limited".

(note: I am not trying to insult someone who only buys the models for non-game reasons, I am trying to point out that only selling "collectables" is an incredibly different market).

Collecting brings in enough to keep Airfix going since 1939 and Hornby since 1901.

I accept that Gamers are also often enamoured with collecting, painting, etc. but it really gets my goat when a User unilaterally declares "Us" as "one thing" no matter what it is.

And collectors do buy several of the same model; I've lost count of the number of Harriers I've bought, not to mention Imperial Guardsmen, Space Marine Librarians, Brass Trains, and Yachts

Collectors may not always buy purely for an army, (although I'm sure many do), but I would imagine with the huge overlap between collectibles and Miniature wargaming, that they are a huge part of GW's revenue, seeing as that is where the company focus lies.

To quote Tom Kirby, "we here all make a living from serving collectors and we understand them and their needs"

 CadianXV wrote:
GW, as a company focuses on being a model company, with the games being an added incentive. Nearly all of their literature states and supports this position, and its a sensible position to take- even if people drift away from Warhammer as a game, the interest in scale models is likely to remain. Its one of the main reasons their product has continued to endure- dropping it would be the worst decision they could make.

This always makes me laugh, really hard. For decades now GW has been blowing off any real work on their rules by claiming that they are a "mini" company first and a rules/game company second and people continue to buy it into it. This is pure and utter bullcrap. When GW was small and new and a group of gamers who at the time were putting out one of the most expansive and amazing all metal mini lines ever, yeah they were more of a model company than a game company and just threw together some rules to use with their minis. Nowadays GW IS 40k and WFB. Without those games their minis sales would be close to non-existent. Without the continued cash cow of the new rule book new stream of codecies/army books and buy new armies cycle GW would be non-existent. Take away those games and you have a line of overpriced niche minis which no longer have a niche...Think back through this last year and please come up with any example where GW released an improved version of an existing mini kit that didn't directly involve the simultaneous release of a new rulebook as well? You can't because it doesn't happen anymore. They rules drive the model releases not the other way around. Thus GW is not a model company first, but a combined rule and model company and it would be nice with they would start to actually act like it.

Without 40k and WFB GW would not sell anywhere near as many minis as they do. So don't try and use that tired old line of them being a model company first, because without their games their models don't have enough to stand on their own...

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

It is a poll on *customer* rating...all you need to rate as a customer is BE A CUSTOMER. So the poll is perfectly valid. You don't need an MBA to have an opinion on whether GW is holding up its end of the bargain towards its customerbase.

Skriker

I have a BSA with highest honors, does that count for anything?
If I owned GW I would take a look at my customer base disintegration, schizophrenic business policy, cooked profit margins, and immediately dismiss the entire board.

"Collecting brings in enough to keep Airfix going since 1939 and Hornby since 1901." - actually, no it doesn't.

And thats why airfix went under and was bought by humbrol, then went under and was bought my humbry.who bought them for 2.6 million pounds in 2006.

GW is over 123 million in 2011.

And Tom's quote is part of their mis-information and they don't understand them or their needs.

Collectors are willing to pay top dollar for top quality (such as some of the nice fine scale kits out there) - games workshop - they make games.

How well did collecting keep battlefleet gothic up when they abandoned the rules?

if collecting was enough, they would never cancel products or product lines.

Look, yes, there are collectors - never said there were not - but that is not the bulk volume of their sales - GW is in denial on what their products are used for - for example on the tyranid (and others) psychic power cards - they say for "collectors".

A model collector does not need a card with rules on it.
Thats for playing a game, and that is what drives their business.

 sing your life wrote:


However, as I explained the opinions on the thread aren't taking into account the full picture with GW.

I did not vote in the poll for this reason.

Because the poll only goes up to 10, right?

6 Mostly due to obvious reasons and of course ruining Orks completely.

I think they are an IP company that mistakes itself for a model company. I would love to see them focus on deals that let them monetize the IP and get the prices down for models. They don't seem to understand that the game gets better the more people that can play it.

xruslanx wrote:
They've been zealously unpopular ever since i can remember, and i've never understood why.

Really? You’ve searched the depths of your memory and cannot recount even a single reason why people might criticise or dislike GW? There’s not a thing in this world that has ever given you even the slightest inkling why people might hold that view? At all?

You really do live in an alternate reality...

xruslanx wrote:
If you don't like what they make, don't buy it. Seems obvious to me.

Ah, good. The “if you don’t like it, don’t buy it” line. Meaningless and utterly missing the point since… forever.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
They've been zealously unpopular ever since i can remember, and i've never understood why.

Really? You’ve searched the depths of your memory and cannot recount even a single reason why people might criticise or dislike GW? There’s not a thing in this world that has ever given you even the slightest inkling why people might hold that view? At all?

You really do live in an alternate reality...

xruslanx wrote:
If you don't like what they make, don't buy it. Seems obvious to me.

Ah, good. The “if you don’t like it, don’t buy it” line. Meaningless and utterly missing the point since… forever.

basically my exact thoughts

I'd really love to hear from the people who voted 10. Once they've finished their Kool-Aid, of course. No rush.

The more interesting responses to this thread are those saying that GW rules are good or “basically fine”. This isn’t anywhere close to being true, but I suspect that a lot of people saying that just haven’t experienced rules from other companies. And you know what? That’s fine. Not everyone is a “hobby veteran”, so to speak, so broad knowledge of other systems isn’t (and shouldn’t be) automatically assumed.

But it’s the ones that do not about other systems and doggedly defend GW’s rules. They’re the ones that are a real worry.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'd really love to hear from the people who voted 10. Once they've finished their Kool-Aid, of course. No rush.

Everything you've posted in the past few days has been gold.

I am trying (somewhat) to balance out the snarky ridicule with some actual reality (hence I edited my post with something of substance).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I am trying (somewhat) to balance out the snarky ridicule with some actual reality (hence I edited my post with something of substance).

Well every time I feel like posting in one of these threads, I've found that you've already said everything I would have.

I can't help but feel that your signature block is also the mantra of the apologists.

I would rate their IP at a 8-9, their models would be rated the same, their game I would rate a 2-3

I would rate them as a company a 1 since they seem to be doing everything wrong that business shouldnt do (ignoring feedback, not advertising unless you consider a store advertising, shunning long time consumers, etc.) And doing almost nothing right, (quality control on their products like failcast, offering sales or bundle deals, supporting your community instead I'd shunning and milking it for everything its got, etc.)

 Blacksails wrote:
I can't help but feel that your signature block is also the mantra of the apologists.

It's actually something an old boss of mine used to say when everything was going to hell in the office. It just kinda caught on, and we started using it for everything.

GAMES Workshop is a war GAMING company. Kirby's smoke and mirror comment that rules are not explicitly tied to model sales is just that, a way to cover GW's corporate cynicism. I know GW is a business. I know that they are in it to make money. I do not fault them for that. But they are destroying something that I love, and like many other users on here, I find myself in a very strange and perverse relationship with them. Sadly I have been completely priced out of the hobby. I can literally no longer afford it, so I have moved to other plastic crack dealers who sell their products at real world prices.

I give GW a 2, with the Dark Eldar line the only thing saving them from a 1. (it is truly magnificent)

And I'll leave you with ex GW veteran Warwick Kinrade, when speaking about his new Battlegroup Kursk ruleset,

"I'm not interested in making stuff powerful on the tabletop, which in my experience, is usually a fairly cynical attempt to boost miniatures sales and shows no respect to the players. Believe me it happens a lot, and there is a lot of sales pressures in the corporate world. I believe in the end, if the game plays well and is fun, people will want to buy the models anyway, you won't need to twist their arms (by twisting the game). But you need to design a game from the ground up with collection in mind, not shoehorn it in afterwards."

http://issuu.com/the_gazebo/docs/issue_3

I would have voted higher than a 5 years ago but since then they have really stopped caring about rule testing (Like many of you have said) Heck if FFG wrote the 40k rules I would be extremely happy. Fantacy Flight Games really has done a great job with their 40k table top games, too bad GW takes their money for it

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
Heck if FFG wrote the 40k rules I would be extremely happy.

Of course if FFG did write the 40K rules you'd need more counters than the average WFB player needs miniatures.

Joking aside, I'd love GW to outsource their rules to a company like FFG. I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
Heck if FFG wrote the 40k rules I would be extremely happy.

Of course if FFG did write the 40K rules you'd need more counters than the average WFB player needs miniatures.

Joking aside, I'd love GW to outsource their rules to a company like FFG. I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.

I'd start a petition if I thought GW listens to the customer's wants and needs, but sadly they don't care enough to do that anymore

I personally don't criticize GW as a business that much, I feel that I'm not really qualified due to my lack of experience running international companies.



The main thing I think they could improve upon is the gaming aspect; I believe a well-balanced, tournament-worthy ruleset would pay off for them more than they realize and wouldn't hurt the other aspects of the hobby at all.

GW thinks of itself as a miniatures company, while the only reason anyone would buy their miniatures is to play their games. They are too overpriced for anything else. GW needs to realize that making a better game would draw more customers in, getting them more money from miniature sales.

 Arcturus314 wrote:
GW thinks of itself as a miniatures company, while the only reason anyone would buy their miniatures is to play their games. They are too overpriced for anything else.

The last bit I disagree with. I use 40K models for sci-fi skirmish, and a box of Fire Warriors gets you more than enough models for a full warband. And that's not a high cost. It's when used with their designated rules that the models become overpriced.

I rated the company straight in the middle at 5. The company still comes out with interesting plots, stories, models etc. But I’ve been building and playing for many, many years no and it seems like every year they do something that really makes my look down on the company a bit.

The most minor thing is the constant price increase. I say this is minor because I understand that it is a business and businesses are out to make money. It is a problem to me because when I started, a box of minis was $15 bucks, and now it’s up to $37 something at my local shop. The thing that gets me most is that they are charging higher prices for lower quality products. Let’s face it, in my opinion, the new sculpting on some of the models is just pure hideous. The models look bad when assembled, and many of them are near impossible to put together without heavy modification. The fresh one in mind are the Lizardmen cav. When assembled they have massive cracks in the heads of the cold one and some of them seemed as if it were the complete wrong piece of two halves. Not to mention the new FineCraps that replaced the trust pewter. Bent staffs, massive holes in the model, broken, not cast right pieces. And the list goes on with that. I will always remember the 25th anniversary because my mini looks like crap.

To save on some ranting, I will just finish it with the constant undermining and kicking in the balls to third party model producers. Don’t make a codex, with good characters and unit, and not make models for them, then sue someone for making a model that (can be used as … model) and then after that company makes money of said things make a new codex and completely rip those models out of the book. Then, after 10 years of painting and getting used to the names of colors, change the names because too many people were copying their color names so they wanted to start off fresh with newly copy righted names.

I really dont get all the hate...

As a COMPANY, they are alright, pretty decent even.
Sure, it costs alot, but at least you can be sure any flaws in your models WILL be replaced (often by a whole new kit for just 1 flawed piece, and you keep your flawed one too)

Sure, the rule could be better, but you need to remember there are a gakton of options, and the release method means that you cannot go back and fix things that turn out too good/bad when compared to newer releases.

Weak choice? they were probably too careful with it.
OP choice? they probably missed an interaction or underestimated something.
Should it happen? no. DOES it happen? yes, to everyone.
Its not the rulemaker's fault they are forced into a silly "codex" routine rather then make and release new things individually. sure, things will get missed, things will get priced wrong and things will be messy.
Because they cant be fixed.

Finecast complains? that pretty much only hold for the old models, the newer casts (even with old models) are pretty flawless as I see. not a single bubble in my commander, not bending of pieces, no nothing.
Misfitting part? also NEVER had that issue, nor ever seen somebody else with it, only hear of it on the net, but never IRL. odd.
Paint names? well, its not like they just change names, they changed everything ABOUT the paint. how they work, what paints are out there, what TYPES are out there. its a whole new series, and I for one LOVE it.

No claims for perfection, nor will I defend the parts of the rules who ARE fethed up (IA upgrade on the riptide is worth way more then 5 points x_x) but overall-they are decent.
If you want a real bad company, look at those with customers who never receive their products, or get damaged ones that are not replaced, not the ones who do a wish-washy work at writing.
Writing is hard, look at "proposed rules" to see how hard it is, waves of people who give outright broken units and fail to see it, or asking "how to improve unit X", when it never needs a buff.
And these people work WITHIN a system, making the whole system from the get-go is so much harder.

You know a lot of people are saying GWs customer service is great and they'll happily replace everything and once upon a time I would have whole heatedly agreed with you.

Then I went and tore through 4 finecast Vargulfs, each of which was an absolute mess (at least 2 still had mold still attached), and my local redshirt tried convincing me that the patch of bubble holes just adds more texture to the fur.
When I didn't accept that he then implied that my expectations were unseasonable and gave me a refund very passive aggressively.

I would just like to point out SENDING a customer a COMPLETE replacement for a poor quality product , is the CHEAPEST OPTION FOR GW.

A £50 box costs GW plc about £13 to manufacture and deliver to their retail outlets.
So they HAVE to give you a £50 refund, OR GIVE you a REPLACEMENT by LAW.
So POSTING YOU a NEW COMPLETE box is cheaper , (Appx £15) .

And spending time getting some worker to BREAK OPEN a box they now can not sell to get you one sprue/part is just not cost effective.

So GW plc 'good customer service' is mainly JUST adhering to UK trading laws in the cheapest way possible for GW.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Sure, it costs alot, but at least you can be sure any flaws in your models WILL be replaced (often by a whole new kit for just 1 flawed piece, and you keep your flawed one too)

But that's just basic customer service that you have to provide if you don't want to get into legal trouble. If you sell a defective product you have to replace it or offer a refund. GW have just decided that it's cheaper to send out replacement kits no questions asked than to pay someone to spend time verifying replacement claims and hunting down the exact part you need replaced.

Sure, the rule could be better, but you need to remember there are a gakton of options, and the release method means that you cannot go back and fix things that turn out too good/bad when compared to newer releases.

Options are not an excuse. MTG has way more options than 40k, and doesn't suffer from the same problems. GW only has problems with their game because they don't care enough to invest the effort required to produce a high-quality game.

OP choice? they probably missed an interaction or underestimated something.

Sorry, but the only way GW could "miss an interaction" with some of the overpowered stuff they produce is if they don't playtest at all. Even basic competitive playtesting would reveal obvious balance problems like "don't allow a Revenant titan in a normal game".

Finecast complains? that pretty much only hold for the old models, the newer casts (even with old models) are pretty flawless as I see. not a single bubble in my commander, not bending of pieces, no nothing.

The material is still garbage even when it isn't a defective cast. It's way too soft and crumbly so it is easily damaged when trying to clean off mold lines or convert a model, and it's weak enough that it bends under its own weight in normal temperature ranges. Compare finecast to real resin and the problems are obvious.

Misfitting part? also NEVER had that issue, nor ever seen somebody else with it, only hear of it on the net, but never IRL. odd.

Then you're just really lucky. I've had fit problems even with plastic kits from GW. Not too many of them and even fewer crippling ones, but they exist.

Writing is hard, look at "proposed rules" to see how hard it is, waves of people who give outright broken units and fail to see it, or asking "how to improve unit X", when it never needs a buff.

The difference is that 99% of the content in the proposed rules forum is written by random players with little or no understanding of game design. GW's rule authors, on the other hand, are supposedly professional game designers that are getting paid to write high-quality rules. There is no excuse for their failures.

If you want to make an objective comparison between rule sets written by professional game developers , feel free.

Compare the rules to 40k /WHFB to any other game written by professional game developers at other companies .

In terms of clarity , brevity and elegance 40k and WHFB are comparatively awful.

You can have a ton of fun playing 40k/ WHFB games , but that is more down to the effort you and the people playing put in rather than the rules GW plc sell you.

Lots of games have a lot more variety and diversity then 40k /WHFB, but their rule books are well defined concise and intuitive.
(Because they are subjected to ample play testing, professional proof reading and editing.)

The rules are awful because they seem to encourage whoever has the money to buy the best units win, to sell more models ofc. I read a quote attributed to Jeremy Vetock that said that some armies should always win against others because of the "narrative" and another quote from a redshirt about the solution to facing that is to buy the army that trumps your opponent.

The game is not competitive because competition is based on the assumption of balance. 40k (not sure about WHFB) is certainly not balanced so competition is an illusion and what you really have is an arms race built around a flawed sales model (and the sales model IS flawed since it's designed around charging more for figures you use less of simply because you use less of them in a game).

GW has gone from a company selling a wargame and miniatures that go with it to a miniatures company that builds "rules" around pushing miniatures sales.

5.

Models are brilliant imo. Some of the fluff is very well conceived. Good atmosphere to their games. Artistically GW has done a lot to be praised for.

Management drags the score down a lot for me. Rushing out certain products, etc. Also changing the store policy to no longer support veteran gamers to play games, as it's all about bringing new people in. Certain things like that.

I do think they're good, it's just that you have to put them in context of modern companies which really do provide a lot more these days.

 da001 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, people who complain about their high prices clearly have not grasped the basics of capitalism.

Capitalism is not about "the higher the price the better the business".

Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Demand for Warhammer 40000 products is extreme. Books from the Horus Heresy regularly make it into The New York Times Bestseller List, and everyone who likes science fiction or games has heard of it. The franchise could be as big as Star Wars or Marvel heroes, we could have movies with Hollywood stars on them. But we have not. Because most of the people out there are ex-players, people who got fed up on getting their favorite faction mistreated or retconned out of existence, people who got priced out of the game, people who got so pissed off by GW that abandoned the game they loved, no longer willing to support the company in any sense.

Many, many marketing and business decisions from GW are absolutely nonsensical, hilariously stupid and/or aimed on self-destruction. The only reason the company still exists is because the setting created by the original authors (who are no longer part of the company) is amazingly good, so we have die-hard fans able to pay preposterous amounts of money for low-quality products made in a rush with nearly zero effort by people without talent that care not for the quality of the final product, sometimes for over 20 years, investing countless hours and lots of money and love on the hobby.

Sometimes I feel like a drug addict when I buy their products, I feel shame for buying something that more probably than not will cause me more nerd rage than joy. They are living out of other people´s talent, cannibalizing whatever they can, and I fear every release, because every change they are doing is for the worse, and rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant omg my poor Tyranids what did they do oh the horror the horror.

I agree with this whole heartedly. I am a 16 veteran of GW games and I can tell you its not like it used to be. The new releases are bland. No flavor. The Tyranid book is about the most boring book I have ever seen. I dont even care that they are now probably the least competetive army (which they are close to) but they are just not fun. How can my friend ever play his tyranids vs some ones eldar? Its not even a game.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
[Ah, good. The “if you don’t like it, don’t buy it” line. Meaningless and utterly missing the point since… forever.

QFT!

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Sure, the rule could be better, but you need to remember there are a gakton of options, and the release method means that you cannot go back and fix things that turn out too good/bad when compared to newer releases.

Weak choice? they were probably too careful with it.
OP choice? they probably missed an interaction or underestimated something.
Should it happen? no. DOES it happen? yes, to everyone.
Its not the rulemaker's fault they are forced into a silly "codex" routine rather then make and release new things individually. sure, things will get missed, things will get priced wrong and things will be messy.
Because they cant be fixed.

Finecast complains? that pretty much only hold for the old models, the newer casts (even with old models) are pretty flawless as I see. not a single bubble in my commander, not bending of pieces, no nothing.
Misfitting part? also NEVER had that issue, nor ever seen somebody else with it, only hear of it on the net, but never IRL. odd.
Paint names? well, its not like they just change names, they changed everything ABOUT the paint. how they work, what paints are out there, what TYPES are out there. its a whole new series, and I for one LOVE it.

No claims for perfection, nor will I defend the parts of the rules who ARE fethed up (IA upgrade on the riptide is worth way more then 5 points x_x) but overall-they are decent.
If you want a real bad company, look at those with customers who never receive their products, or get damaged ones that are not replaced, not the ones who do a wish-washy work at writing.
Writing is hard, look at "proposed rules" to see how hard it is, waves of people who give outright broken units and fail to see it, or asking "how to improve unit X", when it never needs a buff.
And these people work WITHIN a system, making the whole system from the get-go is so much harder.

The problem is that they often don't seem to notice that the rules in a codex are screwed up until AFTER they release it. That is what gets me. AND they keep making the same mistakes over and over again with each incarnation of the rules and the codecies. THAT is the part that really bothers me. Make a new army and find out you screwed the pooch is one thing. Revise an army for the 5th time and still screw the pooch and you are a bunch of idiots. If the company charges me $80 for a rulebook for their game to encourage me to buy their minis then that book better tno be full of wish-washy work at writing. Other companies found indemnic problems with their ruleset so rewrote it all better (Battlefront comes to mind on this going from 1st to 2nd editon of FoW). They then, after some time of issues being complained about by their player base released a 3rd editon of the game to *fix* those areas that there players always complained about without completely changing aspects of the game that people were fine with. The end result: A more solid ruleset that has gotten better through its different editions. GW has had some good writers on their staff, and almost every one of them have left GW to go on to other companies and write some exceptional rulesets that blow 40k and WFB out of the water completely.

Yes writing is hard. It is even harder if you don't test it. Often GW's new units come across like the web codecies that people make up that you mention the units are outright broken and they can't even notice. The problem is I am not paying Joe Gamer to try out his broken rules/units, but I am paying a ton of money to GW to do so. That is the big difference and why it makes people angry. Besides, if one cannot write good unit and game rules then one should probably not be a rules writer in the first place, eh?

I am with you, though, on the finecast thing. I have had a single model with a bent sword, that one heated in warm water was easily dealt with. I didn't have much finecast initially, but bough a ton of supporting units in finecast for my Dark Eldar and have had zero issues with any of the minis. The details are all crisp. There are no holes in anything. There are no deformed pieces. So the continued complaints from people about how horrible finecast is confuse me a bit. Yes there was definitely a problem initially and some of those pieces were crap and I saw those with my own eyes. I just waited to buy any to give them time to sort out the issues first.

Skriker

 Peregrine wrote:


Options are not an excuse. MTG has way more options than 40k, and doesn't suffer from the same problems. GW only has problems with their game because they don't care enough to invest the effort required to produce a high-quality game.

Did you REALLY just note as MTG as an example of good balance?!

A game that ran, simultaniusly, multiple cards that are exactly the same except a single numerical change or optional change (as in one can be targeting X, the otehr can target X or Y as you wish) that makes one strickly superior in every and all situations? and they did it MULTIPLE times

MTG is the lousiest balance ever, where price and power are quite literally, and they even admit they are intentionally linked.
A common card and a rare card from the very same edition can fall under the "like X, but better" syndrome.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Did you REALLY just note as MTG as an example of good balance?! ...

You're over simplifying and confusing balance and tight rules. One can have poor balance between factions while still having tight rules.

At a minimum, MtG has tight rules that make sense. Rarely do player run into situations where the interactions do not make sense with what is written on the cards. When they do run into those interactions, it is typically available online for immediate rectification of the rule question. GW games, have many rule's holes, which GW's solution is role a D6. With many less variables (cards or models), GW should have a much simpler time plugging the holes in their rules. MtG rules also tend to make more common sense, where as GW rules can fly completely in the face of logic. Why can't my SM with a bolter pick up the plasma gun the gun in front of him just dropped when he died? Why would a Chaos god turn a champion that just killed something in his name, turn him into a spawn?

MtG cards are fairly balanced between each other based on rarity, mana cost and color. There are examples of cards which are outliers on each end of the OP and worthless tails of the curve, but they tend to be reasonable; especially considering the volume of cards produced and the time frame. For an accurate comparison, one would need to allow play from all editions of 40K against each other. Imagine a 2nd edition Lord going against a 5th edition Lord. Not balanced at all.

As for rares being better and more expensive; its no different than GW making the newest, most expensive models better than the old stuff. See the Riptide, Helldrake, etc.

GW - Score: 3.

A company that does not even try to hide that they do not want interaction / feedback from their customers other than sales. It used to lead the way in customer interaction. Now it appears to be a liability to them.

Much of it's existence now showing "profit" is by shrinking and selling off what assets it built up during it's "golden age".

Anything "handling" it's IP or in the ballpark other than GW is considered hostile and is treated as such (hobby stores, fan base sites, conversion / scale alternate parts suppliers).

Big changes to the meta of the game on a publication / supplement basis and is marked-up accordingly.

Best execution of model design - probably, "Gorgeous" esthetic design, as of late; no.

Just compare with Privateer Press and Fantasy Flight.

I gave them a 6. They have high quality product, yet their business model is unsustainable. From a customer satisfaction point of view, I would have rated them higher if their product was more accessable.

SJ

I'm kinda surprised by the amount of people who talk about price being the biggest issue. Hobbies cost money. They are a luxury. They are purposefully expensive. GW raising prices isn't what caused sales to drop. Sales dropping caused price increases. This us true with many businesses. Of course inflation and raw material factor in as well. I have managed businesses and beat my head against P&L reports for 14 years now. Plain fact for a publicly traded company. You can sell less as long as profit is increased YOY. Shareholders will forgive that. They will not forgive profit loss in any way shape or form.
Last thing. Lowering prices rarely increases sales they only lower profit. Rarely will you sell enough to overcome the profit loss you endured by lowering prices.
As for price this hobby is somewhat expensive but they're far worse ones. Try collecting fixing up old cars, model trains, RC racers for that matter, boats (I had a small bass boat once. stab my face), motorcycles, the list goes on. I spend about 1000 annually. I find that to be pretty cheap overall.

i gave it a 6...

overal the detail and quality of the minis is getting better...

but i dont like the huge models they ar making lately... they are turning a miniature game to a toy game...

and i believe they are just doing it so they can keep up with their agenda of constantly raising the prices of their already overpriced products...

also the rate of releasing stuff got out of control and that is both nice and a dissapointment cause you wont be able to keep up eventually

higher prices ...faster rate of releasing... it is so obvius that they only care about our wallets and nothing more...

i thing GW is going down soon if it keeps that way.. fans will eventually stop spending their money on GW products and turn to other smaller companies...

also i find their colector book releases hilarius and are products targeted towards slowed people... they cost the double money and all they offer is a differnt hardcover...(SERIUSLLY?? wtf is buying that gak?)

i gave it a 6 but i am afraid they are dropping very fast..

i think at least the rules (at least the digital ones) should be out for free if they respect their fans

I say 7, sure it's expensive but despite some well known examples the models are pretty ace and the customer service is really really good.

I have had some really great games and have spent many happy hours modeling and painting.


...actually now that I think about it I think 7 is too low, maybe 8.5.

I am not clear what we are even rating here. Am I an investor in the company? Am I rating how much people like interacting with them? The quality of their products?

As you include more and more the number becomes diluted until it doesn't make any sense.

Didn't vote.

Rated them at 1. Models have appeal but are kinda nasty, publication quality is high but publication content (ie rules and story) are worthless most times. Not trying to be a jerk or nothing just calling them as I see them. Truly remarkable that they have existed so long.

 lobbywatson wrote:
I'm kinda surprised by the amount of people who talk about price being the biggest issue. Hobbies cost money. They are a luxury. They are purposefully expensive. GW raising prices isn't what caused sales to drop. Sales dropping caused price increases. This us true with many businesses. Of course inflation and raw material factor in as well. I have managed businesses and beat my head against P&L reports for 14 years now. Plain fact for a publicly traded company. You can sell less as long as profit is increased YOY. Shareholders will forgive that. They will not forgive profit loss in any way shape or form.
Last thing. Lowering prices rarely increases sales they only lower profit. Rarely will you sell enough to overcome the profit loss you endured by lowering prices.
As for price this hobby is somewhat expensive but they're far worse ones. Try collecting fixing up old cars, model trains, RC racers for that matter, boats (I had a small bass boat once. stab my face), motorcycles, the list goes on. I spend about 1000 annually. I find that to be pretty cheap overall.

We complain about the price because we compare GW to other companies in the same hobby, not 'the GW hobby' against other hobbies.
GW charge far more than any of their competitors who are putting out similar quality. Hell paying the same as you do for a finecast greater demon model from the 90s you can get some downright stunning, real resin demons.

@Boomwolf on the subject of MTG...Thats how magic works. Wizards HAS skewed certain cards to be better and others worse but all in the scheme of FORMATS. That's a key component to its design principles. Also power creep is present in any game. As strange as it may sound in magic, the cards of future sets (see ten years from now) may well eventually overlap the original "Power Nine" (though maybe not Mox's). More importantly the skew is a built in teaching tool to teach players how to identify 'efficient' cards. Then thanks to extended and eternal formats, 'bad' cards can eventually find new uses. Also Deck building restrictions still allow two cards that do an identical action but costs more to still be used. (Lightning bolt or Lightning strike for instance.)

Honestly GW couldn't hold a candle to Wizards as far as game production goes. Though Wizards IS making some very strange design decisions of late...We will have to see what that means for Wizards future.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
I'm kinda surprised by the amount of people who talk about price being the biggest issue. Hobbies cost money. They are a luxury. They are purposefully expensive. GW raising prices isn't what caused sales to drop. Sales dropping caused price increases. This us true with many businesses. Of course inflation and raw material factor in as well. I have managed businesses and beat my head against P&L reports for 14 years now. Plain fact for a publicly traded company. You can sell less as long as profit is increased YOY. Shareholders will forgive that. They will not forgive profit loss in any way shape or form.
Last thing. Lowering prices rarely increases sales they only lower profit. Rarely will you sell enough to overcome the profit loss you endured by lowering prices.
As for price this hobby is somewhat expensive but they're far worse ones. Try collecting fixing up old cars, model trains, RC racers for that matter, boats (I had a small bass boat once. stab my face), motorcycles, the list goes on. I spend about 1000 annually. I find that to be pretty cheap overall.

We complain about the price because we compare GW to other companies in the same hobby, not 'the GW hobby' against other hobbies.
GW charge far more than any of their competitors who are putting out similar quality. Hell paying the same as you do for a finecast greater demon model from the 90s you can get some downright stunning, real resin demons.

Ok sure I see what you're saying there. That makes sense to me. I am going to ask a question in all seriousness. Are the other companies actually cheaper or do they play at smaller model levels? I have never really looked at other games. I am happy with the one I got. So I ask this seriously. Is it like 40k being cheaper then fantasy only.because you play with less models? I have had friends tell.me PP stuff was just as expensive just when I see them play they only got like 15-20 models.on the table w/ no crazy vehicles like us 40k psyho's.

I dont known about Warmachine but infinity is $12-20 a model au, which is more expensive on a per model basis but each one is as well sculpted as a hero and 10 of them is all you need for an average game.
Compared to GW where a plastic hero is $22 and a finecast one is $38 or a whole army of at least $400.

Dystopian wars I picked up 2300 points for $250. Dystonian wars average size games are 750-1500 points so 2300 is the equivalent of over 3k points of 40k and is essentially an apoc force. A starter set runs you between $50 and $70 au and is a full, legal army. Ship for ship the price varies greatly as ships vary from an inch to like 6 inches but that big dreadnought centerpiece model itself is only like $20/$25.

X wing is $20 a ship and $40(?) For the bigger ones locally but unless your spamming ties 3-5 ships is a full sized game.

Then there is the Perry twins models. These guys did a lot of sculpting work for GW so essentially the same quality but the Vikings I got was $200 for something like 120+ men (after a rather annoying shipping cost).

I've just ordered some models from Victoria miniatures do as counts as gaunts ghosts and that was $45 for 10 metal guardsmen, which I thought was pretty good but that's more an aesthetic opinion.

Mantics games I have yet to play but I've handled the models and for about a quarter of GWs prices you get about 95% of the quality. I don't know but I would find it hard to believe you need more models for kings of war than fantasy.

Mierce sell greater demons which are amazingly well detailed and real resin for the same price locally as GWs crappy, outdated and smaller finecast ones.

I could probably think of some more examples but that's already a hell of a rant to post from a phone.

KoW seems to use about the same amount of figs as WHFB and the sell for half the cost. I did a comparison with KoWs undead boxed army vs the same number of models from GW and GW was over three times as much when you included the rules. That's for the same number of models, which was about 1,000 points or so so entry level army. That's insane for a new player. It came to like $174.99 for the Mantic box (including the rules) and $588.00 for GW (including rules + army book) for the starter level of army that a new player would be expected to have to even begin fighting regular games (to say nothing of the fact most WHFB players play higher than 1,000 points). Factor in paints and supplies and you're at over $700 JUST TO GET STARTED.

That's not normal price raises at all.

Yes, almost everything else is cheaper than GW. If we compare plastic models to plastic models and resin/metal models to resin/metal models, just a few Google searches would indicate that this is indeed the case. Even if you skew it quite a bit (GW plastics to other companies' resin/metal), the price difference is not that far off.

GW minis are really expensive, and the quality of Finecast is certainly questionable. Not to mention to play a GW game, you need a buttload of miniatures. Even if it doesn't need that, they are still more expensive than other companies so saying that they are outrageously priced has merits.

 jonolikespie wrote:
snip

Not sure if you're arguing for or against GW and it's prices.

Anyway, the arguments come down this way in all price threads; per model and per game. Per model is self explanatory, where as per game relates to how much money it takes to play a standard "game". There are hundreds of threads on this already, so not worth bringing up again.

 heartserenade wrote:
GW minis are really expensive, and the quality of Finecast is certainly questionable. Not to mention to play a GW game, you need a buttload of miniatures. Even if it doesn't need that, they are still more expensive than other companies so saying that they are outrageously priced has merits.

This to me is the real problem. I pretty much want to play 40k again but I cannot justify the price cost, and that's with having a boxed army from previous years at my disposal. It's still a crazy amount of money to pay to build up the army, and that's assuming I want to play that army - if I went with an army I'd have to start from scratch I'd again be looking at dropping about $300+ just to start and that's hoping that the regulars don't mind playing lower points battles or you'll still be unable to play.

I'm sorry but when I can spend $120 or so on two figures (Tau Commander and Riptide, as cool as the Riptide is) or $175 for around 100 figures or more (Mantic Kings of War boxed army), the choice is clear to me, regardless of how much I enjoy GW's fluff and the world(s) they've created; the price point is too high and unjustifiable for a game. Couple that with the more I read, see and hear is that 40k and WHFB just aren't enjoyable games as they focus on the metagame and "net lists" and I'll take a game that lets you win or lose on strategy versus a game where you can literally win by having more money to spend than your opponent and therefore able to field more super-powered units that give you an advantage.

Barfolomew wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
snip

Not sure if you're arguing for or against GW and it's prices.

Anyway, the arguments come down this way in all price threads; per model and per game. Per model is self explanatory, where as per game relates to how much money it takes to play a standard "game". There are hundreds of threads on this already, so not worth bringing up again.

The point was that GW loses to plenty of companies when comparing the quality of two similarly priced models. It looses to even more when comparing the price of two similar quality models. It loses to everyone when comparing the cost of entire armies.
Because of that I can not fathom people rating the company highly. They do NOT offer ANYTHING to make up for it.

 jonolikespie wrote:

Barfolomew wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
snip

Not sure if you're arguing for or against GW and it's prices.

Anyway, the arguments come down this way in all price threads; per model and per game. Per model is self explanatory, where as per game relates to how much money it takes to play a standard "game". There are hundreds of threads on this already, so not worth bringing up again.

The point was that GW loses to plenty of companies when comparing the quality of two similarly priced models. It looses to even more when comparing the price of two similar quality models. It loses to everyone when comparing the cost of entire armies.
Because of that I can not fathom people rating the company highly. They do NOT offer ANYTHING to make up for it.

They offer models tied to a universe that a lot of people love. Mantics Enforcers are cheaper and of similar quality to Space Marines but you know... They're not Space Marines.

But wouldn't the 40k IP actually benefit greatly from another company getting their hands on it?
The current staff at GW didn't build it, they just made GKs kill sisters and BAs besties with necrons. Another company producing the same (or better) models for cheaper, whilst listening to fan feedback, trying to grow the hobby and putting out a clearer and cleaner ruleset would be wonderful.
Owning a good IP does not a good company make.

They make excellent miniatures and have good customer service. Unfortunately, they are inept in every other way. Whoever's responsible for their marketing strategy is almost single-handedly killing the company.

Looking at the company as a whole for as long as I've been a customer, I gave GW a 7. I generally think that it has consistently had the best models on the market, I enjoy Reading books from Black Library, their customer service (over the past 20 years that I've been buying their products) has been great and, most importantly, I've enjoyed countless hours with my friends playing Warhammer Fantasy and 40K. Price increases suck but I have enough models for all my armies that I rarely need to purchase much anymore. Plus, my other hobbies cost far more. I do wish GW was more like it used to be in the late 90s and early 2000s but times change, companies change and it's a different world. I'm not privy to their internal affairs or operations so who knows why they make the decisions that are made. Besides, at the end of the day, there are far more unscrupulous companies in the world screwing people over. Anyhow, I've had many more years and instances of enjoyment than headache.

Flames of War is a bit cheeper, granted its a much smaller scale, but all the models are made of pewter and resin whichs costs more than plastic. I made my entire German army, about 2000 points, or more, for less than $200. It cost me almost $300-$400 to make my plastic space marines army.

My brother orders lots of Perry minitures and has piles of Roman and Gauls, Cannons and revolutionary models, all about the size of a 1500-2000 pt Warhammer armie and none of them cost more than $150-$200 for the army. They are all 28mm models as well, and the quality of them is high in my books

Even Bolt Action is cheaper than GW. I can get a tank for $30 instead of $50, I got my 3 squads with transports for $75, and the books are $15-$20. They too are 28mm.

Barfolomew wrote:
Why would a Chaos god turn a champion that just killed something in his name, turn him into a spawn?

Chaos has ALWAYS been that way. I played chaos warband leagues all the time and they were a lot of fun, but you never knew when getting rewarded if your patron was going to raise you up in someway or turn you into a spawn. You killed something in your patron's name? So what? It was only a gretchin, or he wanted the kill to be something more impressive, or he had a liking for that model you killed for some reason. Chaos has always been that fickle about things. It is the very nature of chaos to be, well, chaotic. I could see your point if that had just suddenly appeared on the horizon to be added to the CSM codex, but such situations were written into the original chaos hardbacks from the very beginning. The annoying thing, though, is that while it was fun when you were playing a warbands league to suddenly see your rising star turned into a spawn and have your warband taken over by his lieutenant, it is not fun to have your general suddenly become a spawn a critical point in a tournement game against an army that doesn't have a chance of their general screwing themself over because they MUST issue challanges. That is ultimately why all that random crap was removed from the chaos armies going forward in 40k and WFB. The only reason I can think to bring it back now is because they had zero new ideas to bring to the table for CSMs.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lobbywatson wrote:
I'm kinda surprised by the amount of people who talk about price being the biggest issue. Hobbies cost money. They are a luxury. They are purposefully expensive. GW raising prices isn't what caused sales to drop. Sales dropping caused price increases. This us true with many businesses. Of course inflation and raw material factor in as well. I have managed businesses and beat my head against P&L reports for 14 years now. Plain fact for a publicly traded company. You can sell less as long as profit is increased YOY. Shareholders will forgive that. They will not forgive profit loss in any way shape or form.
Last thing. Lowering prices rarely increases sales they only lower profit. Rarely will you sell enough to overcome the profit loss you endured by lowering prices.
As for price this hobby is somewhat expensive but they're far worse ones. Try collecting fixing up old cars, model trains, RC racers for that matter, boats (I had a small bass boat once. stab my face), motorcycles, the list goes on. I spend about 1000 annually. I find that to be pretty cheap overall.

GW is all about the shareholders now which means they now care very little for the customers. The constant price increases are a part of that path and those price increases have never been about inflation and are everything about profit. So of course people are going to complain about the prices as a big part of their issues with the company because, after all we are NOT collecting motorcycles, building old cars or antiqueing. We are playing a GAME and it is just ridiculous to pay this much for such a hobby. Comparing playing GW games to hobbies like those expensive ones to give "perspective" just makes it even clearer that the game is way over priced. I've owned two businesses in my day and it was always a tightrope walk between providing superior product and keeping pricing competitive. The proper comparison for GW as a hobby is against other miniatures games not high end things like motorcycles and in that comparison they are failing across the board: Highest start up costs, yearly price hikes well above inflation, poorly written rules, practically non-existant rules maintenance and support. The list goes on and on. That is why people complain, but that first one is a biggie. If I want a hobby as expensive as collecting motorcycles then I will collect motorcycles and not miniatures for a game.

With what I own I could get buy without spending anything on this hobby with GW ever again and be fine, but that doesn't make the overall hobby *cheap*. It just means it would be cheap for me...

Skriker

I gave them a 4.

Positives:
-Cool models
-Incredibly detailed universe with lots of support through novels and things like the FW books.
-Detailed rules
-Easy to find models and games locally, so a large fan base

Negatives
-Horus Heresy BL books appear to have gone off the deep end and have serious continuity issues. FW's take on the Heresy is far better.
-Prices are on par with printer ink and crack.
-Inability to keep focused. Last year FAQs were coming regularly and solving big issues; then they stopped. There are still serious outstanding items.
-Failure to properly edit and organize their rule books. Most appear to have little to no play testing. Various new rules in 6th appear to have had little forethought on how they interact with others.
-Serious lack of communication with players. Rule questions are replied to with a generic brush off message. Fans only have rumors to find out what may be coming out.
- Apparent total disregard for people that are primarily interested in a solid core game with easy mechanics. Various people within GW apparently think all we want to do is slap down a few hundred models, yell out "pew pew" and have each player roll a single die to see who "won". Whereas the player base really really wants to actually play a *game*.

Not sure how I feel about the following
-Constant "reimagining" of the various races and even "history" in the 40k universe. I feel like it would be better served if they moved the universe forward, allowing each race to grow in complexity or even to change their behavior based on large events. However, at the same time, I understand it's hard to change the nature of a race, like what happened with Necrons, without throwing away previously established "fluff". So, I'm on the fence here.


==========

I gave it a 3.

There are a number of lovely models produced by GW but they are all very expensive these well made models being the only reason I didnt vote 1.

For me it seem's GW dont rate their rivals and therefore feel they dont need to pay attention to the market and set pricing to be competitive. This just helps their rivals grow and will hurt their dominance. They are constantly showing no interest in the community and stating they are a retail company. The big problem here being that what they sell requires support in the way of the rules and codices and if they refuse to deal with the gaming aspect of their product as is happening people will just give up or not bother anymore. They seem to not realise they are selling a game with rules and a community (or dont care) and act like they are just selling G.I Joes. They really seem to me like they dont know what their doing or how to deal with customers giving an arrogant impression of themselves thinking they dont have to try and people will just keep buying. They need a wake up call that the key to selling more isnt price but support.

8.

Top notch IP and continued branding.

Each main edition of the games is dramatically better than the previous.

Faction books are mostly better for the game than previous, but they're sacrificing a little too much of the original background material.

Price per unit is getting a little carried away on some things.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
8.

Each main edition of the games is dramatically better than the previous.

You are trolling, aren't you...because that is so far and away not even remotely true...

Skriker

Having idiotic claims over intellectual property, and silly pricing/moneygrabs, as well as not listening to the fanbase :/ Not really much to say without a rant, lets leave it with "satan"

Honestly GW has the only armies that look remotley worth playing to me, but the price is high. I gave a 5.

8. The quality of their models make them industry leaders and no-one else comes close in my option.

The quality is backed up by an outstanding replacement policy that goes above what I expected. I've utilised this twice this year and been very satisfied. Either full model replacement (Finecast) or full sprue containing damaged components (plastic).

The prices? Why buy full retail? I don't for any other items so this is not, IMHO, as much of a deterrent that others make it out to be. I try not to buy direct from GW as a retailer. There are distributors that sell for far less (locally and internationally).

The rules, well, I'm still on the fence about that.

I think it would be good if posters made it clear if they have only experienced the 'GW' part of the war game hobby.

Because if you only have experience of GW , you are not capable of objective comparison to other companies products and service.

If you like the style of GW minatures more than any other that is a valid opinion.
However, please do not confuse style with quality. Quality is objective not subjective .
And there are minatures of equal or higher quality , at similar or cheaper prices, available from other companies..

And just to point out replacing faulty goods or refunding purchase price is trading law.GW have to do one or the other or they are breaking the law.

The fact it is much cheaper to send a full replacement box, (24% of purchase price plus P&P.).Than any other option is not good customer service.Its just following the law, in the cheapest possible way for GW plc. .

Good customer service would actually mean having a Marketing department to conduct market research to find out who the customers actually are, and provide what they actually want.
And having open 2 way communication with GWs customers, would be a better direction than just presuming the customer would buy what ever GWplc make , at what price GWplc want to charge. .

I gave them a 10! Yes a 10! I've played their games since I was young, the company was young too. GW has kept me entertained for over two decades, I've made loads of friends, played loads of games, love the models they make, I enjoy the novels too.

8. Love the universe. Love the games. Love the books.

Love that if I get tired of an army, I can eBay it for more than I bought it for if I sell units individually (I'm a good painter). Not many hobbies allow that return.

Love their customer service. Their screw ups have been rare, but I've found dealing with them on the phone is great and they often throw in freebies. GW Scottsdale is awesome and every GW should take note to how it's run.

Don't like how secretive they are about releases. Hate how long it takes inbetween releases (though the last 2 years has been the best it's ever been). Don't like that they give some armies updates each edition but others every 2-3 editions. Don't like unexplainable price increases or pricing points.

Overall, I love the hobby and have for two decades now. Some of my fondest memories in general have come from the hobby surrounded by close friends.

Great back story, great universe, aesthetic, etc.; some very high quality products but on the other hand some terrible products like micro transaction pay to win type rules, fine crap, generally over priced products and bad customer service in some regards. The game is fun but could be improved by the rules NOT being written for the purpose of selling the more expensive models. I think if they made the game, new rules etc. more customer driven I.e. having polls for consumers to vote on and reacting accordingly and making prices cheaper and some armies more feasible to collect it would be a better company but right now they seem to have terrible business sense and appear quite sleazy.

About 2. They make some very nice models. If they charged a reasonable price for them, provided decent rules to play them with, and didn't act like flaming jackholes I'd love them more than hipsters love Apple.