Because I'll keep winning against my friends with all those units that supposedly got nerfed. Now to clarify, I am not a tournament player. There's a very good chance that I will never face Seerstar or Triptide lists. I hear the arguments that the tyranid army dies really easily to enemy shooting, but tyranid shooting is pretty fantastic in this edition. Lots of blast templates to snipe out those pesky melta or plasma guns and pinning is a Tyranid player's new best friend. Yes everyone likes Dakka Flyrants, but mine died on turn 1 to shooting. And you know what? I'm fine with that, because it took his WHOLE army to bring it down. Your models are going to die, but most everything in the codex is useful and does it's job well. Support your units, try out some of those "nerfed" models, and make the opponent fear us on the tabletop again. Let them think we are weak now, and we will strike hard before they know what hit them. Rant over.
HiveGuard wrote: Any of our troops with support are good at holding objectives.
Until they loose synapse and run off the board or wound themselves I'm glad you are winning your games. You know this entire thread is asking for a majority of the people to argue against you with a hand full supporting you.
GreyHamster wrote: Against noncompetitive lists, victories are not an indication of a strong codex or skillful play.
Which doesn't matter so long as people are having fun with the codex in their local games. GW absolutely gives not one single feth about the competitive scene, and does not write books for it.
GreyHamster wrote: Against noncompetitive lists, victories are not an indication of a strong codex or skillful play.
Which doesn't matter so long as people are having fun with the codex in their local games. GW absolutely gives not one single feth about the competitive scene, and does not write books for it.
You can have fun with bad things. Joke characters in fighting games are popular for a reason. You just don't mistakenly believe joke characters are anything but. You're not right when you say, 'well I think this is tier 1 because I beat all my friends, none of whom play tier 1.' As long as you're aware you're saying, 'well tier 3 is good enough to beat my friends,' then you're right. I personally own plenty of models broadly considered to be terrible, like Warp Talons and Bloodletters, and use them with some frequency. I win some of those games. It doesn't prove the statement 'they are a bad unit' wrong.
GreyHamster wrote: Against noncompetitive lists, victories are not an indication of a strong codex or skillful play.
Which doesn't matter so long as people are having fun with the codex in their local games. GW absolutely gives not one single feth about the competitive scene, and does not write books for it.
Wait so you claim that all around the world people play with bad lists and only in tournaments ,people play with good list ? Well I can tell you that I have checked organoleptically , that at least in Poland the chance to see a normal army is much higher and not limited to tournaments. And am sure that there are other countries in the world where the game is played the same way.
I'm fine with that, because it took his WHOLE army to bring it down
That is hard to imagine unless the army was melee one without shoting . I can't think of a melee army played out of any codex right now other then tyranids and demons , both both are full of skyfire.FMC units so downing a dakka tyrant shouldn't be hard . I do agree that dakka tyrant does die .
IMO the dakka tyrant maybe the best tyrant on paper , but it is better to run a slower and technicly weaker footslogging one , which does not die as fast and which does spread the synaps for longer and gives the support to nid troops your talking about.
GreyHamster wrote: Against noncompetitive lists, victories are not an indication of a strong codex or skillful play.
Which doesn't matter so long as people are having fun with the codex in their local games. GW absolutely gives not one single feth about the competitive scene, and does not write books for it.
Not writing for the competitive scene does not excuse being laziness and unresponsiveness to player feedback.
They should have at least never let Cruddace touch the book given the sheer amount of vitriol targeted at the man for his last ode to дерьмо.
It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
I think as the next few tournaments get played people are going to develop a healthy respect for the new nids.
I've seen 4 games so far, played in one of them myself - not as the nid player. In all cases the nids tabled the opponents and the nid players weren't what I'd call top tier tournament guys. I consider myself well above average and I don't think I've ever been spanked that hard before.
Part of it is simply the number of bodies they can now put on the board. Another part is that some of the old tactics used against them don't work anymore. Honestly I think the dex is probably a lot better than people are giving it credit for.
Has there been a single person on Dakka that has argued that no one will ever win games with the new codex? Because I'm nearly 100% sure that, in fact, that is not the complaint people are making.
But by all means, keep fighting against something no one is arguing.
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table?
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.
D&D is a beer and pretzels game and has a great deal more effort put into it rather than lazy copy paste jobs, arbitrary nerfs and invalidations of prior tactics, and usually doesn't try to disadvantage one class heavily.
The players shouldn't have to cover for GW's ass and house rule a book out of mediocrity.
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.
D&D is a beer and pretzels game and has a great deal more effort put into it rather than lazy copy paste jobs, arbitrary nerfs and invalidations of prior tactics, and usually doesn't try to disadvantage one class heavily.
The players shouldn't have to cover for GW's ass and house rule a book out of mediocrity.
You obviously don't play Fighters in 3.0 or later editions of D&D.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blacksails wrote: If 40k is a beer and pretzels game, I can't think of a game that isn't a beer and pretzels game.
Should a game require being more? Would that not make it more akin to a job?
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.
D&D is a beer and pretzels game and has a great deal more effort put into it rather than lazy copy paste jobs, arbitrary nerfs and invalidations of prior tactics, and usually doesn't try to disadvantage one class heavily.
The players shouldn't have to cover for GW's ass and house rule a book out of mediocrity.
You obviously don't play Fighters in 3.0 or later editions of D&D.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blacksails wrote: If 40k is a beer and pretzels game, I can't think of a game that isn't a beer and pretzels game.
Should a game require being more? Would that not make it more akin to a job?
WoTC at least tried to rectify fighters with the Tome of Battle and continually released errata and much more rules heavy supplements that showered the game with new toys for everyone involved.
GW's supplements are a lot of fluff, pretty pictures, a handful of scenarios, maybe a warlord table or two, a special character here and there and switching the FOC around.
Should a game require being more? Would that not make it more akin to a job?
Maybe be not a bloated mess that achieves its purpose in a smooth way with balanced factions so everyone can pick any model they want and be effective?
I don't know, maybe I'm crazy for wanting a quality product with balance and cleaner rules.
Personally, I think Warmahordes is getting more popular because it has a much, much lower bar to cross for getting into than 40K.
Aren't Warmachine/Warmahorde models pre-assembled and pre-painted? Isn't a PDF of the rules provided for free with the purchase of a box of figs? The initial outlay does not resemble the down payment of a car.
It's also much, much newer than 40K. This accounts for a lot, actually, as I think "kids" these days, getting into their first tabletop war-game, are going to see 40K, and remember that they have seen those 40K boxes on the shelves at their FLGStheir entire lives and think that it's a game for old people. And so they go with the newer-looking games. This is more a marketing issue than anything, however.
That does not, however, mean Warmachine/Hordes is *not* a beer and pretzels game. Sure, I suppose you could play it competitively, but I am led to understand that there is no real competitive edge between armies, and pretty much whatever you put down is a viable thing to play and stands a real chance of winning the game. This is the very definition of beer-and-pretzels.
40K can be this way, too, and it is in many places, such as the scenario described by the OP. If it's just you and some friends and no one has the desire, or the cash, to build the superdeathstardreadhardkilly build of the current edition, then just about anything you throw on the table is going to be viable.
Should a game require being more? Would that not make it more akin to a job?
Maybe be not a bloated mess that achieves its purpose in a smooth way with balanced factions so everyone can pick any model they want and be effective?
I don't know, maybe I'm crazy for wanting a quality product with balance and cleaner rules.
Not crazy, but crazy if you are expecting that from GW. 40K hasn't *ever* been such a thing.
Having played Tau in 5th and won about as often as I lost while my regular opponents tended to play Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Necrons, I gotta say there is something specially pleasing about winning with a codex that everyone and their mother believes is not up to snuff.
After all, if the army with the best codex always wins, the Germans would have won WWII and the Americans Vietnam.
I think most of the people in this thread have no idea what a beer and pretzels game actually is...
I think the book is pretty well balanced personally, there is a difference, however, between 'balance' and 'diversity'. It seems pretty clear to me that the army is intended to be played as a large swarm army backed up by a handful of monstrous creature (carnifexes, trygons, exocrines, harpys, crones, etc.) and small elite units (warriors, shrikes, raveners, hive guard, zoanthropes, etc.) which fulfill specialized roles within the army (anti-tank, anti-heavy infantry, deepstrike/backfield disruption, etc.), most of the attempts at 'list building' I have seen are basically trying to keep alive an outmoded style of play harking back to 4th edition nidzilla: As many monstrous creatures as possible with the swarm elements as an afterthought. This failed list building paradigm no longer works nor is it how the army was primarily intended to be utilized, and it shouldn't be surprised that all the examples of 'Tyranids are underpowered' result from it.
Aren't Warmachine/Warmahorde models pre-assembled and pre-painted? Isn't a PDF of the rules provided for free with the purchase of a box of figs?
Nope and not at all.
Also, it is worth mentioning that a massive part of the "new" Warmahordes players are actually former 40k/Fantasy players and not fresh faces. They are simply switching game systemy because Warmahordes has a good ruleset while 40k has grown quite sh*tty.
Not crazy, but crazy if you are expecting that from GW. 40K hasn't *ever* been such a thing.
Great, so you agree with me fundamentally; 40k is not a good ruleset. It isn't any more of a casual game than any other system, and I'd argue that it is in fact worse due to high cost, complicated rules with little depth, poor balance forcing players to negotiate on power levels lest one player accidentally bring a strong list, and many loopholes and situations where the rules fail altogether.
Jeffnar wrote:After all, if the army with the best codex always wins, the Germans would have won WWII and the Americans Vietnam.
I don't even know where to begin on how this is one of the worst comparisons I've ever read.
Psienesis wrote: Aren't Warmachine/Warmahorde models pre-assembled and pre-painted?
Nope.
Psienesis wrote:Isn't a PDF of the rules provided for free with the purchase of a box of figs?
Wrong again.
The pieces all require assmebly and painting and the starter sets don't come with a PDF of the rules. There is a "Starter Edition" rule set that is like 2 pages of information on how to play. You get the rules for the units that come with it via the cards, however.
The rest of your post would make sense if Warmahordes was only picking up steam with younger people, however that isn't true either. It's just picking up steam because it's a solid well-written game, with interesting models.
Not crazy, but crazy if you are expecting that from GW. 40K hasn't *ever* been such a thing.
Great, so you agree with me fundamentally; 40k is not a good ruleset. It isn't any more of a casual game than any other system, and I'd argue that it is in fact worse due to high cost, complicated rules with little depth, poor balance forcing players to negotiate on power levels lest one player accidentally bring a strong list, and many loopholes and situations where the rules fail altogether.
Jeffnar wrote:After all, if the army with the best codex always wins, the Germans would have won WWII and the Americans Vietnam.
I don't even know where to begin on how this is one of the worst comparisons I've ever read.
I have never said differently that the rules of 40K are not a terrible mess.
What I am saying, however, is that people are getting too jimmy-rustled over this fact, and seem to think that bitching about it on a forum or, worse, telling a player who is having fun with those messy rules that they are wrong for having fun with those rules is somehow effective, or appropriate.
I am also saying if you don't like the rules, fine, you can not like the rules, that's totally fine... but don't piss in someone else's wheaties if they *are* having fun with the rules. That just makes you an ass.
After all, if the army with the best codex always wins, the Germans would have won WWII and the Americans Vietnam.
The Germans lost because the economic deck was stacked ridiculously against them (America alone outproduced the entire Axis) and attrition soon robbed Germany of any skilled soldiers or supplies to keep their army in tip top shape. The allies could produce far more materiel that was technologically equivalent and had effectively limitless manpower. Also, the Germans couldn't have even defeated Britain, they had no hope of defeating the royal navy and without the royal navy out of the way, Britain was uninvadable.
I'm not really an expert on vietnam so I'll leave it to someone else to explain to you why this is a dumb comparison.
I have never said differently that the rules of 40K are not a terrible mess.
What I am saying, however, is that people are getting too jimmy-rustled over this fact, and seem to think that bitching about it on a forum or, worse, telling a player who is having fun with those messy rules that they are wrong for having fun with those rules is somehow effective, or appropriate.
I am also saying if you don't like the rules, fine, you can not like the rules, that's totally fine... but don't piss in someone else's wheaties if they *are* having fun with the rules. That just makes you an ass.
Right, well I guess this thread was a prime target for such responses, though I do normally keep my jimmy-rustling and wheatie pissing for the threads dedicated to GW rules discussions.
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.
It's too complicated for beer and pretzels. 7 Wonders is a beer and pretzels game. Hell, I play Starcraft drunk off my butt. I can't even GET to the game store drunk.
possibly 9 rulebooks for one list, 2 FAQs, 1 dataslate, thousands invested in models, and countless hours spent modeling and painting = Just pick it up and play with your friends for giggles.
I have never said differently that the rules of 40K are not a terrible mess.
What I am saying, however, is that people are getting too jimmy-rustled over this fact, and seem to think that bitching about it on a forum or, worse, telling a player who is having fun with those messy rules that they are wrong for having fun with those rules is somehow effective, or appropriate.
I am also saying if you don't like the rules, fine, you can not like the rules, that's totally fine... but don't piss in someone else's wheaties if they *are* having fun with the rules. That just makes you an ass.
Find one person who has said "You are wrong for having fun." Stop with these strawman.
People are saying "We shouldn't have a ruleset with so many holes in it." Bitching about it on forums is all we can do until GW listens. So stop telling people they can't complain about it.
After all, if the army with the best codex always wins, the Germans would have won WWII and the Americans Vietnam.
The Germans lost because the economic deck was stacked ridiculously against them (America alone outproduced the entire Axis) and attrition soon robbed Germany of any skilled soldiers or supplies to keep their army in tip top shape. The allies could produce far more materiel that was technologically equivalent and had effectively limitless manpower. Also, the Germans couldn't have even defeated Britain, they had no hope of defeating the royal navy and without the royal navy out of the way, Britain was uninvadable.
I'm not really an expert on vietnam so I'll leave it to someone else to explain to you why this is a dumb comparison.
The Germans weren't even the army. Only the best army in a few ways. Their airplanes, for example, had crap range which plagued them in Russia.
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.
It's too complicated for beer and pretzels. 7 Wonders is a beer and pretzels game. Hell, I play Starcraft drunk off my butt. I can't even GET to the game store drunk.
Simple solution: Get drunk *at* the store. There are many, many flasks of various designs and configurations available from a large number of retailers around the world.
Or invite your friends over for 40K and Jameson. Your call. You know, whatever's easier. Whatever floats your goat.
GreyHamster wrote: Against noncompetitive lists, victories are not an indication of a strong codex or skillful play.
So if I'm playing a game in a format for which it was originally designed (garage or home games) and winning with units and a codex that people consider to be bad, are they still bad? I say no. You cannot base a units worth or usefulness based on competitive play alone. But by all means keep saying they are bad. As I stated before, it's only doing me a favor.
GreyHamster wrote: Against noncompetitive lists, victories are not an indication of a strong codex or skillful play.
So if I'm playing a game in a format for which it was originally designed (garage or home games) and winning with units and a codex that people consider to be bad, are they still bad? I say no. You cannot base a units worth or usefulness based on competitive play alone. But by all means keep saying they are bad. As I stated before, it's only doing me a favor.
I have never said differently that the rules of 40K are not a terrible mess.
What I am saying, however, is that people are getting too jimmy-rustled over this fact, and seem to think that bitching about it on a forum or, worse, telling a player who is having fun with those messy rules that they are wrong for having fun with those rules is somehow effective, or appropriate.
I am also saying if you don't like the rules, fine, you can not like the rules, that's totally fine... but don't piss in someone else's wheaties if they *are* having fun with the rules. That just makes you an ass.
Find one person who has said "You are wrong for having fun." Stop with these strawman.
People are saying "We shouldn't have a ruleset with so many holes in it." Bitching about it on forums is all we can do until GW listens. So stop telling people they can't complain about it.
GW doesn't read these forums. Bitching here will not get GW to hear you. I would suggest using GW's email address.
The thread in which someone says "say what you will about the Tyranid Codex, I'm having fun with it against my friends" is not the thread to bitch about the Tyranid Codex. Or any Codex. In fact, immediately following the OP, the first comment was a sarcastic "Great" and then a statement that the Tyranid Codex is "objectively terrible". If you don't understand what "objectively" means, then I can see why you don't see that as someone telling someone that they're doing it wrong by having fun with it. "Objectively terrible" means that it is terrible from any point of view, outside observation, free of any emotion or bias. If something is objectively terrible, that implies that it should be impossible, literally impossible, to have any fun with it at all.
This is the thread to tell the OP congrats for having fun with his/her mates and kicking ass with the new Tyranids in his/her local games. You want to bitch about the Tyranid Codex? That thread is down the page a bit.
Me? I'm trying to convince my friend to buy the new Tyranid Codex, as he owns about eighty million bugs, and I have about 1800 points of Sisters. I wanna see how things go in a close-range firefight/slugfest.
Hi! My name is WW and I IC... So say goodbye to all your cover saves and cover save-incurring models!
Hi! My name is Noise Marine, and I'm over-costed, but with each passing Dex, I find more and more units that rely on Cover Saves, So I have been seeing more and more games!
Aren't Warmachine/Warmahorde models pre-assembled and pre-painted? Isn't a PDF of the rules provided for free with the purchase of a box of figs?
Nope and not at all.
Also, it is worth mentioning that a massive part of the "new" Warmahordes players are actually former 40k/Fantasy players and not fresh faces. They are simply switching game systemy because Warmahordes has a good ruleset while 40k has grown quite sh*tty.
Psienesis wrote: GW doesn't read these forums. Bitching here will not get GW to hear you. I would suggest using GW's email address.
And bitching about it here affects their bottom line. They don't want people googling "New Tyranid Codex" and having it come up with a bunch of threads about how bad it is. You would also be kidding yourself to think GW doesn't occasionally browse the interwebs. Especially for popular sites.
Psienesis wrote: The thread in which someone says "say what you will about the Tyranid Codex, I'm having fun with it against my friends" is not the thread to bitch about the Tyranid Codex. Or any Codex.
Free forum and all that. It is on topic.
Psienesis wrote: In fact, immediately following the OP, the first comment was a sarcastic "Great" and then a statement that the Tyranid Codex is "objectively terrible". If you don't understand what "objectively" means, then I can see why you don't see that as someone telling someone that they're doing it wrong by having fun with it. "Objectively terrible" means that it is terrible from any point of view, outside observation, free of any emotion or bias. If something is objectively terrible, that implies that it should be impossible, literally impossible, to have any fun with it at all.
I know what objectively means. What it doesn't mean, is that no one can have fun with the codex. What it doesn't mean, is that the codex can't win games. What it does mean, is it is worse than every other codex out there.
Psienesis wrote: This is the thread to tell the OP congrats for having fun with his/her mates and kicking ass with the new Tyranids in his/her local games. You want to bitch about the Tyranid Codex? That thread is down the page a bit.
Given that the OP started out by attacking the people that don't like the codex, he shouldn't be surprised to be attacked back.
Psienesis wrote: Me? I'm trying to convince my friend to buy the new Tyranid Codex, as he owns about eighty million bugs, and I have about 1800 points of Sisters. I wanna see how things go in a close-range firefight/slugfest.
He could just as easily be swayed not to waste money.
Savageconvoy wrote: possibly 9 rulebooks for one list, 2 FAQs, 1 dataslate, thousands invested in models, and countless hours spent modeling and painting = Just pick it up and play with your friends for giggles.
GW logic everyone!
Beer and Pretzel games are Beer and Pretzel games because they're simple. There are far too many rules in 40k, and far too much work behind the building of an army (and the setting up of a single game) to ever qualify as a beer and pretzel game. You'll roll more dice in a single shooting phase than many beer and pretzel games will have you roll in a whole evening.
Of course, GW not knowing what a Beer and Pretzel game is and thinking their product qualifies that might explain a few things.
GreyHamster wrote: Against noncompetitive lists, victories are not an indication of a strong codex or skillful play.
So if I'm playing a game in a format for which it was originally designed (garage or home games) and winning with units and a codex that people consider to be bad, are they still bad? I say no. You cannot base a units worth or usefulness based on competitive play alone. But by all means keep saying they are bad. As I stated before, it's only doing me a favor.
No. I can win with Thousand Sons, but that doesn't actually make them good. I can get lucky and have Pyrovores actually kill more than they cost, that doesn't make them good. Here's the thing, if you are having fun with it, cool. If you are winning with it, cool. Are the negative reactions a bit too much and there's probably a list or two for competitives that whilst not taudar or seerstar or screamerstar level good are still a pretty decent option? Yeah there probably will be. Have you ever heard of Blazblue? Well, for a while, I played a guy named Tager in it. At that time, he was in the bottom tier. I could beat my friends with him. I've won in the unbalanced mess that is Super Smash Bros melee (the wii one. Mabe it is brawl?) with Ganondorf whom is the worst champion in it even against Metaknight. Does that make them good? No! They are still sub par players just as in 40k Thousand Sons are sub par. In casuals, it doesn't mean as much because your enemy is probably going to be taking something sub par as well but the playing fields isn't even here either. I person playing a CSM only Tzeentchian army is probably going to lose a vast majority of their games even at this level and if your foe isn't as good at the game as you, you can promptly curb stomp him with almost anything. Eldar? Time to beat you with heldrake-less, bikerless, plaguemarineless armies! But that doesn't mean that the CSM codex is any good. Play casually and have fun because if you are having fun who cares but just because something succeeds for you doesn't mean that objectively those units are any good (I'll still wait for Nids to determine them overall. I'm overly cynical and can't really see anything big but who knows maybe a dataslate will be a surprise)
Also, I've watched some films that are objectively terrible but loved them for how bad they are or something else
Everyone complaining about the people complaining have missed the point to a degree that astounds me... We're not complaining about the new Tyranids power level, we're complaining that the book had units taken out of it, had little to no new fluff added, was a pathetic copy paste job of the last terrible codex and did not fix the internal balance of the codex at all.
Yes this codex has the power to win games and you can tell us all how great you're by doing so but don't say this is s good piece of literature.
I initially felt really bad for my brother when the Nid codex dropped, it looked miserable. Then I partook in a 500 pt tournament at a flgs while there was a 2500 pt tourney going on simultaneously. During some down times, I got to watch some nids play at 2500 pt and it always seemed that they did decently right up to turn 3, and then their opponent would successfully wipe out most if not all of the synapse on the board and then suddenly the nid player would be all sorts of SOL. In the 500 pt tourney, I faced a couple nid players and tended to be the same: take out synapse, watch part if not all of the rest of the army get screwed by instinctive behavior, mop up. Felt bad for one guy I went up against, a unit of 30(probably less, it was just one sizeable clusterfeth) hormagaunts cannibalized themselves into oblivion.
So I still feel bad for my bro, but not as much. Regeneration scares/annoys the gak out of me.
Zande4 wrote: Everyone complaining about the people complaining have missed the point to a degree that astounds me... We're not complaining about the new Tyranids power level, we're complaining that the book had units taken out of it, had little to no new fluff added, was a pathetic copy paste job of the last terrible codex and did not fix the internal balance of the codex at all.
Yes this codex has the power to win games and you can tell us all how great you're by doing so but don't say this is s good piece of literature.
I don't think anyone is trying to compare a Codex to literature. Vonnegut or Steinbeck, this ain't.
Zande4 wrote: Everyone complaining about the people complaining have missed the point to a degree that astounds me... We're not complaining about the new Tyranids power level, we're complaining that the book had units taken out of it, had little to no new fluff added, was a pathetic copy paste job of the last terrible codex and did not fix the internal balance of the codex at all.
Yes this codex has the power to win games and you can tell us all how great you're by doing so but don't say this is s good piece of literature.
I don't think anyone is trying to compare a Codex to literature. Vonnegut or Steinbeck, this ain't.
As a codex, the new book is an incredibly lazy copy pasta job that alleviated...precisely none of the problems raised with the old book and introduced some new ones.
To this observer it seems that people are disappointed because the Tyranid Codex is not up there with Tau and Eldar. Nevermind that they beat every other codex.
I haven't played against the new Nids, but it sounds like Eldar S6/7 36' firepower is going to be huge problem for their synapse creatures. Maybe the Nids can make Jetseer councils fail some spells. Maybe. It doesn't sound like a good codex to me. It might even be below C:SM, which would be a first for Xeno codices in 6th.
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.
A beer and pretzels game aimed at customers who are not allowed to drink yet. Yep, I can see where it all went wrong
Naw wrote: To this observer it seems that people are disappointed because the Tyranid Codex is not up there with Tau and Eldar. Nevermind that they beat every other codex.
This book is inferior to...pretty much all the sixth edition books, still iffy against the Necrons who are overall still high tier, and overall is about as competitive as the Ork book. Anyone who tells you it's objectively better than the Necron, Marine or Daemons book is straight out lying to you.
And the Ork book is older than my children.
What GW should do is make every new codex to the standards of Taudar and every unit to the standards of Riptides and Wave Serpents. Because there's no other way to save the game's balance now besides a reset.
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.
A beer and pretzels game aimed at customers who are not allowed to drink yet. Yep, I can see where it all went wrong
Naw wrote: To this observer it seems that people are disappointed because the Tyranid Codex is not up there with Tau and Eldar. Nevermind that they beat every other codex.
I haven't noticed that be the biggest problem. I've seen rage primarily that there is one bit of odd extra fluff, ymgarl, spores, doom, and something were removed, they made pyrovores WORSE as well as rippers, removed additional options, and didn't answer the problems people had with the previous Nid codex. Yes there are people that wish they were on tau, Eldar, and even daemon levels but that isn't what I have seen brought the most rage. Oh, and what does that mean Nids beat? They lose to daemons, tau, and Eldar. DE can still stomp them, Necrons probably still can. Discounting old and out of date codices, the only thing they will or might beat are CSM, DA, and SoB
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Naw wrote: To this observer it seems that people are disappointed because the Tyranid Codex is not up there with Tau and Eldar. Nevermind that they beat every other codex.
I haven't noticed that be the biggest problem. I've seen rage primarily that there is one bit of odd extra fluff, ymgarl, spores, doom, and something were removed, they made pyrovores WORSE as well as rippers, removed additional options, and didn't answer the problems people had with the previous Nid codex. Yes there are people that wish they were on tau, Eldar, and even daemon levels but that isn't what I have seen brought the most rage. Oh, and what does that mean Nids beat? They lose to daemons, tau, and Eldar. DE can still stomp them, Necrons probably still can. Discounting old and out of date codices, the only thing they will or might beat are CSM, DA, and SoB (in terms of overall balance and effectiveness maybe)
I prefer a toned down and balanced codex than the Tau and Eldar cheese and codex creep. They are the only "unbalanced" codexes in 6th (of course, re-rollable 2++ is chees as well, but interceptor on the riptide for +5 pts is completely ludicrus..)
In 5th, every new codex was way better than the last.
spartiatis wrote: I prefer a toned down and balanced codex than the Tau and Eldar cheese and codex creep. They are the only "unbalanced" codexes in 6th (of course, re-rollable 2++ is chees as well, but interceptor on the riptide for +5 pts is completely ludicrus..)
In 5th, every new codex was way better than the last.
If every codex is over the top and overpowered, then no codex is.
spartiatis wrote: I prefer a toned down and balanced codex than the Tau and Eldar cheese and codex creep. They are the only "unbalanced" codexes in 6th (of course, re-rollable 2++ is chees as well, but interceptor on the riptide for +5 pts is completely ludicrus..)
In 5th, every new codex was way better than the last.
Not true at all. The BA were NOT better than IG or SW. That's one example.
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.
A beer and pretzels game aimed at customers who are not allowed to drink yet. Yep, I can see where it all went wrong
Drinking age in England is 16, isn't it?
It's 18 to purchase I think, while allowed at 16 when on private property of something. Need to ask a Brit to be sure.
So if winning does not a good codex make... and you can win with a "bad" codex... does it really matter in the long run if a codex is deemed good or bad?
huh? The problem is good can be arbitrary for the individual. What do you want from the codex? Fluff? Diversity? Creative models to deploy? More options? More choices? Do you want it to have a beastly competitive list and have it have several lists so you aren't stuck with a monolist, or do you simply want it to deploy your models and take yours off when they die and your opponent theirs when they die. If you can have fun with it, well then it doesn't matter if the book itself is bad. For you, it will suit your purposes just fine. But you have to remember that there are legitimate reasons individuals are displeased in the book. A lot of bits were taken out, many things were not addressed nor improved, an entire method of deployment was removed and there were many things lost with very little gained back. The must take went from Elites to heavy and Flyrants went from simply better to never touch a normal hive tyrant. They lost biomancy and have no way of even countering the fact that everybody else at least gets allies and many individuals are frustrated that it did very little when the developers admitted the codex had many problems instead making it more punishing when you lose synapse whilst making many things that already weren't fielding even more costly but then making you feel forced to take it lest your units start running away or eating eachother apart.
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.
A beer and pretzels game aimed at customers who are not allowed to drink yet. Yep, I can see where it all went wrong
Drinking age in England is 16, isn't it?
It's 18 to purchase I think, while allowed at 16 when on private property of something. Need to ask a Brit to be sure.
Can at 16, but only with parental consent and not drinking publicly.
Trust the Student
Anyho back to topic, I hope it really is as bad as they say so I can crush under Hades Autocannon fire haha
HiveGuard wrote: So just ask if your opponent is ok with you playing with the 5th edition codex instead of complaining?
What do you lose if people complain until any google search for "6th edition tyranid codex" leads to threads pointing out it's flaws? What is your stake in this? Are we threatening your ability to play the game by pointing out that this is a mediocre rehash of an already mediocre predecessor codex? No? Then kindly get off your high horse.
After all, if the army with the best codex always wins, the Germans would have won WWII and the Americans Vietnam.
The Germans lost because the economic deck was stacked ridiculously against them (America alone outproduced the entire Axis) and attrition soon robbed Germany of any skilled soldiers or supplies to keep their army in tip top shape. The allies could produce far more materiel that was technologically equivalent and had effectively limitless manpower. Also, the Germans couldn't have even defeated Britain, they had no hope of defeating the royal navy and without the royal navy out of the way, Britain was uninvadable.
I'm not really an expert on vietnam so I'll leave it to someone else to explain to you why this is a dumb comparison.
Actually that's my point entirely. In WWII. The Germans were arguably the pinicle in terms of military structure and equipment. So much so, that the doctrine they used is still followed in general terms today by almost every major military. The designs of their equipment were so advanced that many modern weapons can trace their ideological origins to items used by the Germans in WWII. Still the Germans lost due to economic and logistical factors.
In Vietnam you had the most advanced military on the planet fighting a war against farmers and peasants armed with AK-47s and improvised weapons, but political and social factors forced the Americans to withdraw from the conflict.
War doesn't always go to has the best army on paper and neither does wargaming. The player, the battlefield, the scenario and the dice all have a role in the outcome that isn't accounted for in the army list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HiveGuard wrote: So if winning does not a good codex make... and you can win with a "bad" codex... does it really matter in the long run if a codex is deemed good or bad?
And the Ak-47 was one of the best assault rifles of the time, which explains why it's still popular to this day. The North wasn't just farmers either. They were an actual army with good equipment.
The Germans were arguably the pinicle in terms of military structure and equipment
Here's your problem; this isn't a true statement. Unless you live in Hollywood or 1944 suburban America. Anywhere else and its kind of bunk.
The Germans had specific equipment that was great. And they had great NCOs. But most of their army was horse drawn and their average rate of advance was equal to the Union army of the Civil War. Hardly a pinnacle.
The must take went from Elites to heavy and Flyrants went from simply better to never touch a normal hive tyrant
True. People say that Biomancy was a crutch for nids , but they didn't magicly get errated for 6th ed . They had the same codex they had in 5th , and I don't think anyone can say that one was good. Biomancy made nids good . Taking it away would have made sense , if they got something in return and they didn't . What they got is a phase out type rule and those are never fun . Taking synaps because it buffs your army and allows different tactics is cool . Taking synaps because without it you lose , is not fun and it makes no sense considering they took away so many things .
Sure people say that stuff like biovores got better. And they are right in , on paper in a void where opponents don't move and don't shot back biovores got better. But then to run them you have to keep a tervigon in your back field and if that big ass model gets killed your artilery isn't so good anymore. It is not effective and it isn't cheap in points and the only other option to use something else is to either burn an HQ slots on a prime or taking zoethropes . And both of those options are worse , then tervigon , unless we put them all in a big ass stronghold and add a few void shields and venoms . Then the whole thing starts working , but it also starts to cost a ton of points too. And if someone plays where stronghold assault is not core rules , he is in deep trouble.
Can at 16, but only with parental consent and not drinking publicly.
That is the strangest thing I have ever heard. What would stop someone from buying alkohol at the age of 10-12 ?
MWHistorian wrote: There's no shame in admitting its a crappy codex full of Copy Paste stuff from the last edition or that your army tends to self destruct.
You can admit that the codex has deep flaws and still have fun and still win.
But to say the codex is great is just delusional.
I agree with this a lot. The codex is not great. But nor do I think it is awful.
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.
No, not really. Mindless dice throwing stops being fun around 6th - 8th birthday. Maybe 12 if you're slowed.
btw suggesting 40k is beer and pretzels in 99% cases is just trolling. It was succesfuly debunked so many times that only people immune to logic and reason or simple trolls can repeat such an obvious fallacy.
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.
No, not really. Mindless dice throwing stops being fun around 6th - 8th birthday. Maybe 12 if you're slowed.
btw suggesting 40k is beer and pretzels in 99% cases is just trolling. It was succesfuly debunked so many times that only people immune to logic and reason or simple trolls can repeat such an obvious fallacy.
I have yet to see someone debunk the idea that 40K is a beer and pretzels game.
I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.
I have yet to see someone debunk the idea that 40K is a beer and pretzels game.
I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.
Sure, but then every game ever made can be called a beer and pretzels game.
At this point, we might as well drop the whole beer and pretzel thing and go back to just calling it a game. Like every other game.
I actually think that would be a grand idea. It's a game. It's not SrsBzns.
However, some people seem convinced that a game of 40K is somehow srsbzns, because they play it in large (?) buildings with other people and that all aspects of the game should be devoted to enhancing that playstyle.
To which I say "yeah, it'd be cool if it was like that"... but it hasn't been this way. Ever. It's not going to start now.
So drink a beer, roll some dice, move your war-dolls around.
But that's not the point a lot of people are making.
The point is that the Nid codex was a rushed product that is overpriced for the content it delivers, and continues to show that GW is only capable of producing poorly balanced codices with messy rules.
Its not that it srs bznss, its that people are disappointed a product for an army they love is very substandard.
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.
No, not really. Mindless dice throwing stops being fun around 6th - 8th birthday. Maybe 12 if you're slowed.
btw suggesting 40k is beer and pretzels in 99% cases is just trolling. It was succesfuly debunked so many times that only people immune to logic and reason or simple trolls can repeat such an obvious fallacy.
I have yet to see someone debunk the idea that 40K is a beer and pretzels game.
The size of the rulebook is enough to debunk it.
Psienesis wrote: I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.
Why throw dice? Just make a sound and push your opponent's models off the table. Fun.
In the meantime, I want a balanced, tactical game that forces me to use my mind in order to play succesfuly. After 10 beers, it is still what I want, homo sapiens is capable of strategising even when drunk.
HiveGuard wrote: Because I'll keep winning against my friends with all those units that supposedly got nerfed. Now to clarify, I am not a tournament player. There's a very good chance that I will never face Seerstar or Triptide lists. I hear the arguments that the tyranid army dies really easily to enemy shooting, but tyranid shooting is pretty fantastic in this edition. Lots of blast templates to snipe out those pesky melta or plasma guns and pinning is a Tyranid player's new best friend. Yes everyone likes Dakka Flyrants, but mine died on turn 1 to shooting. And you know what? I'm fine with that, because it took his WHOLE army to bring it down. Your models are going to die, but most everything in the codex is useful and does it's job well. Support your units, try out some of those "nerfed" models, and make the opponent fear us on the tabletop again. Let them think we are weak now, and we will strike hard before they know what hit them. Rant over.
HiveGuard wrote: Because I'll keep winning against my friends with all those units that supposedly got nerfed. Now to clarify, I am not a tournament player. There's a very good chance that I will never face Seerstar or Triptide lists. I hear the arguments that the tyranid army dies really easily to enemy shooting, but tyranid shooting is pretty fantastic in this edition. Lots of blast templates to snipe out those pesky melta or plasma guns and pinning is a Tyranid player's new best friend. Yes everyone likes Dakka Flyrants, but mine died on turn 1 to shooting. And you know what? I'm fine with that, because it took his WHOLE army to bring it down. Your models are going to die, but most everything in the codex is useful and does it's job well. Support your units, try out some of those "nerfed" models, and make the opponent fear us on the tabletop again. Let them think we are weak now, and we will strike hard before they know what hit them. Rant over.
How do blasts snipe out melta or plasma guns? The Biovore is the only one with barrage.
In the meantime, I want a balanced, tactical game that forces me to use my mind in order to play succesfuly. After 10 beers, it is still what I want, homo sapiens is capable of strategising even when drunk.
You want Warmachine/ Hordes for that.
About 7/10 for balance (Vs. circa 2/10 for 40k). It's not perfect, but it's a rule set that's simple but also deeply tactical, if you select the more tactical armies.
Clarity of rules: 9.5/10 vs. 5/10. Pretty much every rules query on the forum is answered with "Look at page xx where it is all clearly explained." Any still unclear rules get clarified by members of PP staff within a day or so and may appear in their FAQ, updated every couple of months. GW's stopped doing any FAQ now? When they could be bothered that is...
Rules support: Mentioned above. Excellent rules help, great forum and timely rules answers. 9.5/10 vs. GW's 0/10 cos' they really couldn't give a t*ss.
Community Engagement. Weekly updates from PP on their latest products and sneak peeks and advance releases of units up to 12 months before official release in the latest update. Vs. GW's super secret no previews at all release schedule.
Updates: Every faction (Apart from one deliberately limited faction) gets updated every 12-18 months via newly released books. As mentioned above, balance isn't perfect but at least this way PP can attempt to patch the game, strengthening the weaker factions as required. Vs. GW's releases where stuff gets released and then forgotten for years. 10 years since the last Bretonnian book? 9/10 vs. 2/10.
No point complaining about GW products cos they don't care. They've sold rubbish for years and they're still doing it. Vote with your wallet and try some other games. If not WM/H, then maybe Flames of War, Malifaux or infinity.
Maybe then GW will attempt to write a decent Nids codex.
Psienesis wrote: It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.
Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.
Sorry its not beer and pretzels when my friend who plays tau has to "go easy" on all the other players in the group so he doesnt win too easily. That or he just plays his necrons so we stand a better chance. Just saying it's not fun unless its a close game, and the codexs aren't balanced enough to achieve that.
HiveGuard wrote: Any of our troops with support are good at holding objectives.
and absolute gak at getting to them unmolested.
Is there an army whose troops aren't good at holding objectives "with support"? I mean, most other armies seem to do fine without support, so I'm not sure how that really falls into the "plus for Nids" category.
HiveGuard wrote: Any of our troops with support are good at holding objectives.
and absolute gak at getting to them unmolested.
I like how he says "with support", because he knows that without a Venomthrope and a Synapse creature nearby most of our troops will simply die to a few blast weapons or spontaneously try to eat each other or run away from the objective they were supposed to be capturing.
HiveGuard wrote: Because I'll keep winning against my friends with all those units that supposedly got nerfed. Now to clarify, I am not a tournament player. There's a very good chance that I will never face Seerstar or Triptide lists. I hear the arguments that the tyranid army dies really easily to enemy shooting, but tyranid shooting is pretty fantastic in this edition. Lots of blast templates to snipe out those pesky melta or plasma guns and pinning is a Tyranid player's new best friend. Yes everyone likes Dakka Flyrants, but mine died on turn 1 to shooting. And you know what? I'm fine with that, because it took his WHOLE army to bring it down. Your models are going to die, but most everything in the codex is useful and does it's job well. Support your units, try out some of those "nerfed" models, and make the opponent fear us on the tabletop again. Let them think we are weak now, and we will strike hard before they know what hit them. Rant over.
So I understand that you're annoyed by whiners, but what is the point of this thread? It seems its just a way for you to brag that you're winning games despite the codex being nerfed. Or is this your way of arguing that it hasn't truly been nerfed?
I agree that the codex has flaws, but faq, codex suplements and dataslate will probably solve those issues.
In the meantime I am much happier playing with a codex that the internet calls bullcrap. Cuz I would feel bad winning with a codex that everyone thought was OP.
Given my non-competitive environment I feel I got a better codex because most things got cheaper. And a fair amount of them got better. We did lose some things but I feel we gained a good amount more than we lost. Many of the issues people have with the new codex were issues we already had in the previous codex so its not like it got worst. Merely just didnt get fixed....yet
If you honestly think that supplements and data slates are an acceptable answer to fixing the Nids flaws, then you may want to have someone hide your wallet.
The problems to a $50 codex should not be fixed by a $10 data slate or $50 supplement.
Savageconvoy wrote: If you honestly think that supplements and data slates are an acceptable answer to fixing the Nids flaws, then you may want to have someone hide your wallet.
The problems to a $50 codex should not be fixed by a $10 data slate or $50 supplement.
It's not $10. It's £10! Time to find those discount iTunes vouchers...
When I first read the codex I was pretty depressed. After a week I am much less depressed, but the Instinctive Behavior table crippling to swarm Tyranids.
I think against SM, Tyranids can have a fun game. Against Chaos, and maybe Chaos Space Marines as well. Never played and don't have access to IG or DE codex. Orcs will be a fun match Its the Eldar and Tau, especially Tau, that are going to be sheer frustration to deal with. In my opinion, for what that's worth.
"Beer and pretzels" is a funny term. Now, I'm not a huge fan of pretzels, but after a few beers I'm far more inclined to think "frak these stupid convoluted rules" and play something more simple.
Anyway, my gripe with the Tyranid codex isn't that you can't win with it or that it's underpowered. It's that it's unbalanced. Within itself, not just in the context of the rules as a whole, it is unbalanced. A good codex you should be able to play in a plethora of ways and as long as you balance your army, you are mostly fine. A bad codex you mess around with the internal imbalance of the codex to create a list you can win with. A terrible codex is one which is both unbalanced and you also can't win with. The tyranid codex isn't terrible, it's just bad.
In the meantime, I want a balanced, tactical game that forces me to use my mind in order to play succesfuly. After 10 beers, it is still what I want, homo sapiens is capable of strategising even when drunk.
You want Warmachine/ Hordes for that.
About 7/10 for balance (Vs. circa 2/10 for 40k). It's not perfect, but it's a rule set that's simple but also deeply tactical, if you select the more tactical armies.
Clarity of rules: 9.5/10 vs. 5/10. Pretty much every rules query on the forum is answered with "Look at page xx where it is all clearly explained." Any still unclear rules get clarified by members of PP staff within a day or so and may appear in their FAQ, updated every couple of months. GW's stopped doing any FAQ now? When they could be bothered that is...
Rules support: Mentioned above. Excellent rules help, great forum and timely rules answers. 9.5/10 vs. GW's 0/10 cos' they really couldn't give a t*ss.
Community Engagement. Weekly updates from PP on their latest products and sneak peeks and advance releases of units up to 12 months before official release in the latest update. Vs. GW's super secret no previews at all release schedule.
Updates: Every faction (Apart from one deliberately limited faction) gets updated every 12-18 months via newly released books. As mentioned above, balance isn't perfect but at least this way PP can attempt to patch the game, strengthening the weaker factions as required. Vs. GW's releases where stuff gets released and then forgotten for years. 10 years since the last Bretonnian book? 9/10 vs. 2/10.
For me it's 40k or nothing, if I stop playing that I'm out of TT gaming and just play on PC. I can't stand Warmachine warcraftish aesthetics, both art and models. If 40k at some point gets unplayable I'll just find or write a ruleset (example I saw 40k ported to Warmachine somewhere) for it and have a rare game here or there.
Gazzor wrote: No point complaining about GW products cos they don't care. They've sold rubbish for years and they're still doing it. Vote with your wallet and try some other games. If not WM/H, then maybe Flames of War, Malifaux or infinity.
Infinity is passable look - wise (not even a bit exciting for me though) but it's too small scale. WWII there's million games on PC, the only period I could do on tabletop is cold war/ modern era maybe as I love models like T64s 72s 80s smerch Mi 24 Ka 50 etc. Challenger is no slouch either heh.
Ayway I'm going to continue to pay GW for plastics, those are exquisite.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote: "Beer and pretzels" is a funny term. Now, I'm not a huge fan of pretzels, but after a few beers I'm far more inclined to think "frak these stupid convoluted rules" and play something more simple.
Exactly, Warhammer is no fun after a few beers just a chore thanks to 1000 USRs 100+ pages rulebook and multiple 100 pages codieces, even hardcore, mind burning boardgames are much better. The rules there are ussualy 10x simplier but they still give you tons of strategic options.
just a chore thanks to 1000 USRs 100+ pages rulebook
I really don't get this. All you have to do is read through the book a bunch of times to know the rules, and anything you don't remember you can look up in like 20 seconds if you know the book (less if you tab it for important things. It's not that complex. If you play this game, you should know the rules and know your codex. It's like how I don't get how people can't watch foreign movies with subtitles. It's not that hard.
It would almost be like heavily relying on Cover for Tyranids was some sort of miracle plan only the pros knew... Now everyone knows to brings Venoms with the update, yet, still get stomped by Ignore Cover.... So where was the point of beefing up a mechanic for an army that assaults primarily, when the prevalent "Ignores Cover" mechanic cripples the notion of your army even mattering.....
I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.
Nothing that costs as much a 1500pts army can't be serious. I can't even imagine how someone who pre ordered nids foolishly , is feeling now . So much cash and the only way to have fun is to find people that play to lose or don't know how to play or those that promise that they will not try to attack nid synaps till turn 3-4.
I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.
Nothing that costs as much a 1500pts army can't be serious. I can't even imagine how someone who pre ordered nids foolishly , is feeling now . So much cash and the only way to have fun is to find people that play to lose or don't know how to play or those that promise that they will not try to attack nid synaps till turn 3-4.
?
I pre ordered a few things, I don't feel bad about it. I was aware of everything of importance before it arrived, and had ample time to cancel or return if I wished.
Problem is, there is very little middle ground in these discussions, some users are undeniably just trolling (and I hate having to say as much) the codex at every opportunity. Like this, your saying I can only have fun against people who play to lose or don't know how to play (or compromise on tactics). The is very presumptuous of the power of the codex, the insinuation the only fun in 40k is winning, and suggesting you know everyones skill level. The middle ground which few are sitting in accept and are unhappy with many changes in the codex, but do not push it to such lengths. Some people have legitimate dislikes, some people have legitimate likes, and both are caught up in between the whitest knight and the ugliest troll.
Of course people will push the highlights when there's so much distortion in the backlash from the codex release.
Are some things bad? Yes
Are some things good? Yes
Does everyone like the codex? No
Does everyone hate the codex? No
Should be getting a game in this week with my Eldar against my brothers Nids. We both played lots of 5th edition with these armies, but have yet to have a game of 6th, or with our new codexs. Will be interesting to see how they fair!
I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.
Nothing that costs as much a 1500pts army can't be serious. I can't even imagine how someone who pre ordered nids foolishly , is feeling now . So much cash and the only way to have fun is to find people that play to lose or don't know how to play or those that promise that they will not try to attack nid synaps till turn 3-4.
We already know that you play in what must be the only all-WAAC league on the planet. Your gaming experience, as you have described on these forums, is so outside of the norm of just about every other player on the planet that I don't even know where to begin. 1500 points in models is, comparative to a lot of other hobbies, not that expensive. Want to get expensive? Take up skiiing. Cross-country hiking. Hunting. Snowboarding. Water-skiing (boats ain't cheap!). 40K is only expensive for a modelling and figures hobby, it's not, comparatively, that much compared to many other hobbies.
Look at the Super Bowl, nosebleed-seats tickets are now $2500 a pop. That's one game. One time. In the worst seats imaginable. And yet, some sports fans (and let's make no mistake, being a sports fan is as much a hobby as anything else) are going to pay that to go to the game to say they were there.
Mostly, though, if you are treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, then you're doing it wrong.
I'm not entirely sure what all the complaining is about to be honest. I suppose if the book isn't what you were expecting you could be upset, but judging from how they actually play, there are a lot of extreme overreactions.
I have personally played against, watched half a dozen battle reports, and read through a lot of posts/reviews/the book itself.
Is it a top tier book capable of dethroning the competitive waac lists? No. But how many books/lists are capable of that anyway?
Yes, it gives the impression of overall laziness and not a ton of innovation, but the changes themselves and how they translate on the tabletop are largely a nonissue.
All of the examples I have seen, when not faced with the best 40k armies have to offer, show the Nids doing quite well.
One of the most common criticisms I see deal with the seemingly 'random' adjustment to points, etc. What people fail to realize is that a lot of stuff in the book decreased in points. Nid armies are already larger for the average game. What can be perceived as seemingly random nerfs/adjustments to things from 5th edition may have been taken into consideration with the rest of the point shifts.
GW certainly doesn't have the best track record with their rules writing, but it is too much of a crutch to see anything in a codex that has changed and immediately throw tantrums because you have to adapt and change how you play/what lists you take. It's always been this way folks.
I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.
Nothing that costs as much a 1500pts army can't be serious. I can't even imagine how someone who pre ordered nids foolishly , is feeling now . So much cash and the only way to have fun is to find people that play to lose or don't know how to play or those that promise that they will not try to attack nid synaps till turn 3-4.
We already know that you play in what must be the only all-WAAC league on the planet. Your gaming experience, as you have described on these forums, is so outside of the norm of just about every other player on the planet that I don't even know where to begin. 1500 points in models is, comparative to a lot of other hobbies, not that expensive. Want to get expensive? Take up skiiing. Cross-country hiking. Hunting. Snowboarding. Water-skiing (boats ain't cheap!). 40K is only expensive for a modelling and figures hobby, it's not, comparatively, that much compared to many other hobbies.
Look at the Super Bowl, nosebleed-seats tickets are now $2500 a pop. That's one game. One time. In the worst seats imaginable. And yet, some sports fans (and let's make no mistake, being a sports fan is as much a hobby as anything else) are going to pay that to go to the game to say they were there.
Mostly, though, if you are treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, then you're doing it wrong.
Try shooting. There's an expensive hobby. For me, 40k is what I do when I can't afford the big toys.
Yes yes, 40k is relatively inexpensive compared to deep space mining.
But can't we just compare it to the "beer and pretzels" types of games, which we were comparing it to when we commented on the cost of the hobby.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
XenosTerminus wrote: I'm not entirely sure what all the complaining is about to be honest.
I suppose if the book isn't what you were expecting you could be upset
I have personally... read through a lot of posts/reviews
Yes, it gives the impression of overall laziness and not a ton of innovation
One of the most common criticisms I see deal with the seemingly 'random' adjustment to points
GW certainly doesn't have the best track record with their rules writing
If you read through the posts and reviews, you'll notice that you already commented on the reasons why people are complaining.
As to the point costs, things overall went down but some things got overall nerfs along with it. I'm not a Nid player, nor do I have much experience with them. However I have read all the detailed explanations on why many of the point changes are unjustified/bad compared to the current meta and previous edition.
Also Biomancy. That's another thing people complain about.
Savageconvoy wrote: Yes yes, 40k is relatively inexpensive compared to deep space mining.
But can't we just compare it to the "beer and pretzels" types of games, which we were comparing it to when we commented on the cost of the hobby.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
XenosTerminus wrote: I'm not entirely sure what all the complaining is about to be honest.
I suppose if the book isn't what you were expecting you could be upset
I have personally... read through a lot of posts/reviews
Yes, it gives the impression of overall laziness and not a ton of innovation
One of the most common criticisms I see deal with the seemingly 'random' adjustment to points
GW certainly doesn't have the best track record with their rules writing
If you read through the posts and reviews, you'll notice that you already commented on the reasons why people are complaining.
As to the point costs, things overall went down but some things got overall nerfs along with it. I'm not a Nid player, nor do I have much experience with them. However I have read all the detailed explanations on why many of the point changes are unjustified/bad compared to the current meta and previous edition.
Also Biomancy. That's another thing people complain about.
I admit on paper it looks bad, but it plays fine against non-competitive lists. Hell, almost everything does. That doesn't mean some of the decisions GW makes with balancing and units is flawless, just that it's not as big of an issue as many people think it is.
Biomancy was one of the few things Nids did well- but that wasn't Nids. That was buffing an army based on tricks via spamming psychic powers.
Go watch battle reports or read some. The games don't play out like the codex is complete garbage. A disappointment, maybe, but certainly not warranting all of the hate.
I think people just need to complain. About everything.
Psienesis wrote: I listed hunting, as it generally involves either guns or bows, but yeah, sport shooting is in the same boat. Freakin' expensive!
Thanks a lot Obama!
Nah. I've been involved in hunting and/or fire-arm ownership for 25 years now. Guns have always been expensive.
What Obama did was... well, no, he did nothing. What people thought he was going to do, based on absolute fabrications, was ban certain kinds of bullets, which caused people to run out and buy those bullets in bulk, which reduced the supply, which drove prices through the roof.
Psienesis wrote: I listed hunting, as it generally involves either guns or bows, but yeah, sport shooting is in the same boat. Freakin' expensive!
Thanks a lot Obama!
Nah. I've been involved in hunting and/or fire-arm ownership for 25 years now. Guns have always been expensive.
What Obama did was... well, no, he did nothing. What people thought he was going to do, based on absolute fabrications, was ban certain kinds of bullets, which caused people to run out and buy those bullets in bulk, which reduced the supply, which drove prices through the roof.
Pretty great isn't it?
I haven't seen any .22 ammunition in my city for almost a year. There is an abundance of the vast majority of higher caliber ammunition, but the prices on most of that stuff is revolting. Hell, you can buy a box of minis for the price of a small box of most types of ammo these days.
try taking walks, drawing, writing, jogging, playing cards, reading, playing with your kids, swiming or all sorts of other stuff.
Playing with your kids isn't a hobby, it's a requirement of being a decent parent.
Drawing, especially if you are going to take a stab at being good at it, is going to cost you a fair bit in pencils, pens, inks, etc. Or, if you want to go digital, a Wacom tablet. Not exactly cheap.
Walking? If you want to do it the right way (ie, not hurt yourself) you're going to want shoes that provide you the support your feet need, and that are comfortable. Those tend to cost a bit, too.
Playing cards is cheap because cards are cheap. That is, as long as you don't play cards for money as a hobby. That can get expensive.
Swimming is not cheap if you don't have access to a free swimming pool. Having your own installed is thousands of dollars.
But you know what? You can play 40K for nothing or next-to-nothing as well. The price of the models does not, in any way, impact how serious one should take the game. There are all sorts of methods to get cheap-or-free 40K models and books.
Go watch battle reports or read some. The games don't play out like the codex is complete garbage. A disappointment, maybe, but certainly not warranting all of the hate.
I have seen a lot of the ones with Reesius. Most notably was the one against Tau in Hammer and Anvil where the entire time the Nids basically hid because they couldn't close the distance. The problem with the competitive vs non-competitive mindset is that non-competitive players don't care that competitive players are having a very uphill battle. It's not just a problem with Nids, nor just with Tau and Eldar. The rules are sloppy and poorly balanced internally and externally, at best. This isn't something that should be defended. It honestly needs improvement and it should not be frowned upon to expect more from a company that is charging a premium for their product.
I think people just need to complain. About everything.
Go watch battle reports or read some. The games don't play out like the codex is complete garbage. A disappointment, maybe, but certainly not warranting all of the hate.
I have seen a lot of the ones with Reesius. Most notably was the one against Tau in Hammer and Anvil where the entire time the Nids basically hid because they couldn't close the distance. The problem with the competitive vs non-competitive mindset is that non-competitive players don't care that competitive players are having a very uphill battle. It's not just a problem with Nids, nor just with Tau and Eldar. The rules are sloppy and poorly balanced internally and externally, at best. This isn't something that should be defended. It honestly needs improvement and it should not be frowned upon to expect more from a company that is charging a premium for their product.
I think people just need to complain. About everything.
Like how people complain about complaints.
Right. There is and always will be a divide over the competetive/non-competetive players. While everyone would benefit if the rules were tighter and more balanced, they aren't. I have said this before and will continue to repeat it come the apocalypse: 40k is not the game for you if you analyze every release strictly from a competitive perspective. It doesn't matter who is to blame, it is a simple fact 40k is not and will likely never be balanced for this type of play.
The comment that inevitably surfaces whenever someone points out people incessantly complain (especially online) that 'you are complaining about complainer's' is laughable at best. There are drastic differences between pointing out people are overly negative. It's not like people randomly start threads with topics such as 'people on here complain too much' or 'there are too many complaints about X'. No. People comment within threads that rapidly devolve into activists of their respective 'playerbase' slinging insults at eachother and digging their heels in the dirt.
The comment that inevitably surfaces whenever someone points out people incessantly complain (especially online) that 'you are complaining about complainer's' is laughable at best. There are drastic differences between pointing out people are overly negative. It's not like people randomly start threads with topics such as 'people on here complain too much' or 'there are too many complaints about X'. No. People comment within threads that rapidly devolve into activists of their respective 'playerbase' slinging insults at eachother and digging their heels in the dirt.
I have seen nobody really slinging insults or unfounded claims yet, so I don't see a problem.
And the issue isn't laughable. It's hypocritical. If I said you shouldn't drive cars and rode a bike, then I'm not in contradiction. If I said people shouldn't complain because it annoys me and my game isn't for them, then I am establishing my own criteria and preference into the situation and expressing my distaste. Which I stated was bad to do. Completely relevant.
What a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that 40K is not a "It's for this market and this market only" product. It's openly sold to and enjoyed by many different types of people. They are called consumers. As consumers they have the right, and I'd even go so far as to say the obligation, to voice their opinion on their purchase. I am a competitive player because I care about a balanced rule set. I don't like having to limit my list and I don't like asking my opponent to limit his. I don't like having to set up for a scenario game just to make things some what balanced. As it is, I am not pleased with the current situation.
Just like I'm sure GW would not like the situation if all competitive players just stopped playing the game, and purchasing models, because the game "isn't for us"
Go watch battle reports or read some. The games don't play out like the codex is complete garbage. A disappointment, maybe, but certainly not warranting all of the hate.
I have seen a lot of the ones with Reesius. Most notably was the one against Tau in Hammer and Anvil where the entire time the Nids basically hid because they couldn't close the distance. The problem with the competitive vs non-competitive mindset is that non-competitive players don't care that competitive players are having a very uphill battle. It's not just a problem with Nids, nor just with Tau and Eldar. The rules are sloppy and poorly balanced internally and externally, at best. This isn't something that should be defended. It honestly needs improvement and it should not be frowned upon to expect more from a company that is charging a premium for their product.
I think people just need to complain. About everything.
Like how people complain about complaints.
This.
A lot of people claiming "you're just doing it wrong" and waving their "beer and pretzels" flag. This doesn't convince anyone that playing competitively is wrong or bad, nor will it change their approach to a game. It's human nature. It's the reason why a group of friends can play pool together, but eventually slap a $20 on the table to see who's really the best. Play poker with chips and friends enough, and someone will always want to up the ante to real money.
Any time you bring people together playing a game, and someone will eventually feel they're so good that they should prove it with prizes, cash, trophies, medals, ribbons, etc.
It's no different for 40k. People want to be recognized for being a better painter. People want to feel they're a superior strategist or list designer. It's a warm fuzzy feeling to be recognized for spending a thousand dollars building an army, a hundred hours painting it and be acknowledged for performing above other hobbyists. Demeaning people for being competitive with a game that concludes with a winner and loser is mind boggling. Trying to convince them to play uncompetitively is a fool's errand.
The point that so many "whiners" are trying to make is that Tau/Eldar are the top armies in any given tournament. By definition, to be competitive you need to be able to defeat them once you get to the top tables. Reece has his $100 challenge because he's fairly certain the new nid book just cannot do it. Is it really such a travesty for hobbyists to be upset that they got a new book that stands no chance in a tournament setting?
The Tau update gave them a lot of very fun and useful abilities, wargear, and signature systems. Eldar got a lot of very fun and useful abilities, wargear, and relics. Space marines got a lot of very fun and useful abilities, wargear, and relics. Is it a surprise, whining, or knee-jerk when tyranid players saw this trend, but received mostly nerfs, useless relics, and worsened synapse/IB? Nothing made the army "more fun" to play. Adding 20% more models to an already slow army is a very bad thing in a timed tournament setting.
try taking walks, drawing, writing, jogging, playing cards, reading, playing with your kids, swiming or all sorts of other stuff.
Playing with your kids isn't a hobby, it's a requirement of being a decent parent. Drawing, especially if you are going to take a stab at being good at it, is going to cost you a fair bit in pencils, pens, inks, etc. Or, if you want to go digital, a Wacom tablet. Not exactly cheap. Walking? If you want to do it the right way (ie, not hurt yourself) you're going to want shoes that provide you the support your feet need, and that are comfortable. Those tend to cost a bit, too. Playing cards is cheap because cards are cheap. That is, as long as you don't play cards for money as a hobby. That can get expensive. Swimming is not cheap if you don't have access to a free swimming pool. Having your own installed is thousands of dollars.
But you know what? You can play 40K for nothing or next-to-nothing as well. The price of the models does not, in any way, impact how serious one should take the game. There are all sorts of methods to get cheap-or-free 40K models and books.
I see playing with your kids as a hobby since there are no laws forcing you to do it and especially none forcing you to enjoy it. its an activity which can be fun, that you can do often, or not. That to me is a hobby.
Drawing cost me about 5-15$ per year of crayons and paper, I consider that next to nothing. of course if you want to go seriously in something you can go all out and spend a lot but you really dont have to.
swiming requires the right location (near a lake or river) or equipment (pool) but some people have those and dont even use them. for those people, choosing to start swiming as a hobby would be completely free.
just saying, me and my girlfriend dont have much money, but we do have a lot of hobbies, warhammer is by far the most expensive one between the 2 of us. I know its still a lot less expensive then some other hobbies but some hobbies are ridiculous.
I still love warhammer.
dont really like games workshop but warhammer is cool.
Go watch battle reports or read some. The games don't play out like the codex is complete garbage. A disappointment, maybe, but certainly not warranting all of the hate.
I have seen a lot of the ones with Reesius. Most notably was the one against Tau in Hammer and Anvil where the entire time the Nids basically hid because they couldn't close the distance. The problem with the competitive vs non-competitive mindset is that non-competitive players don't care that competitive players are having a very uphill battle. It's not just a problem with Nids, nor just with Tau and Eldar. The rules are sloppy and poorly balanced internally and externally, at best. This isn't something that should be defended. It honestly needs improvement and it should not be frowned upon to expect more from a company that is charging a premium for their product.
I think people just need to complain. About everything.
Like how people complain about complaints.
This.
A lot of people claiming "you're just doing it wrong" and waving their "beer and pretzels" flag. This doesn't convince anyone that playing competitively is wrong or bad, nor will it change their approach to a game. It's human nature. It's the reason why a group of friends can play pool together, but eventually slap a $20 on the table to see who's really the best. Play poker with chips and friends enough, and someone will always want to up the ante to real money.
Any time you bring people together playing a game, and someone will eventually feel they're so good that they should prove it with prizes, cash, trophies, medals, ribbons, etc.
It's no different for 40k. People want to be recognized for being a better painter. People want to feel they're a superior strategist or list designer. It's a warm fuzzy feeling to be recognized for spending a thousand dollars building an army, a hundred hours painting it and be acknowledged for performing above other hobbyists. Demeaning people for being competitive with a game that concludes with a winner and loser is mind boggling. Trying to convince them to play uncompetitively is a fool's errand.
The point that so many "whiners" are trying to make is that Tau/Eldar are the top armies in any given tournament. By definition, to be competitive you need to be able to defeat them once you get to the top tables. Reece has his $100 challenge because he's fairly certain the new nid book just cannot do it. Is it really such a travesty for hobbyists to be upset that they got a new book that stands no chance in a tournament setting?
The Tau update gave them a lot of very fun and useful abilities, wargear, and signature systems. Eldar got a lot of very fun and useful abilities, wargear, and relics. Space marines got a lot of very fun and useful abilities, wargear, and relics. Is it a surprise, whining, or knee-jerk when tyranid players saw this trend, but received mostly nerfs, useless relics, and worsened synapse/IB? Nothing made the army "more fun" to play. Adding 20% more models to an already slow army is a very bad thing in a timed tournament setting.
It's not a travesty, but people that honestly believe GW balances this game around tournament play, or making sure each book is competitively comparable are deluding themselves.
Most of the vocally outspoken people upset over the disparity between individual army books have been playing this game long enough to know it is random, unpredictable, and unbalanced. It is very much an arms race/meta-game oriented system if you look at it from a competitive perspective.
I will say it again. This game will never satisfy you from a balanced tournament perspective.
just a chore thanks to 1000 USRs 100+ pages rulebook
I really don't get this. All you have to do is read through the book a bunch of times to know the rules, and anything you don't remember you can look up in like 20 seconds if you know the book (less if you tab it for important things. It's not that complex. If you play this game, you should know the rules and know your codex. It's like how I don't get how people can't watch foreign movies with subtitles. It's not that hard.
Yes it's not that hard. It's not beer and pretzels either when you have to read 100 pages long book "a bunch of times" also know your codex, your opponent's codex and possibly 2 more at least if you use allies, prepare the list etc.
I, for example, don't play 40k 6th edition a lot (not especialy fond of it), not more often than boardgames and what I can tell you is that with those I can sit to a game for which I read the rules once, 5 years ago, last time played it half a year ago and chances are I will not have to check the rulebook even once to play. I also play boardgames with people that play purely to win (which btw is normal in every game - including casual ones - except 40k/whfb where bunch of delicate special snowflakes tries to get everyone down to their level of play) and we ussualy get moderate to solidly drunk. The game is still based on hard strategic thinking and outsmarting your opponent, I don't know why people suggest you have to get mindless just because beer.
What I describe above is still more beer and pretzel experience than laid back game of 40k where after 3 months of not playing I have to check 15 things again to even start and throughout the game watch every exception, interaction and variation of a rule. It's not hard, it's just a chore when you're drunk and a very bad engine for laid back rolling dice and just having fun, forging a narrative etc, that you can achieve with a single dice and really simple characteristics. Sure few games in a row and it gets almost fluid but it is still one of the last games I'd choose to have "larfs with friends pushing mandolies off table".
try taking walks, drawing, writing, jogging, playing cards, reading, playing with your kids, swiming or all sorts of other stuff.
Playing with your kids isn't a hobby, it's a requirement of being a decent parent.
Drawing, especially if you are going to take a stab at being good at it, is going to cost you a fair bit in pencils, pens, inks, etc. Or, if you want to go digital, a Wacom tablet. Not exactly cheap.
Walking? If you want to do it the right way (ie, not hurt yourself) you're going to want shoes that provide you the support your feet need, and that are comfortable. Those tend to cost a bit, too.
Playing cards is cheap because cards are cheap. That is, as long as you don't play cards for money as a hobby. That can get expensive.
Swimming is not cheap if you don't have access to a free swimming pool. Having your own installed is thousands of dollars.
But you know what? You can play 40K for nothing or next-to-nothing as well. The price of the models does not, in any way, impact how serious one should take the game. There are all sorts of methods to get cheap-or-free 40K models and books.
I see playing with your kids as a hobby since there are no laws forcing you to do it and especially none forcing you to enjoy it. its an activity which can be fun, that you can do often, or not.
That to me is a hobby.
Drawing cost me about 5-15$ per year of crayons and paper, I consider that next to nothing. of course if you want to go seriously in something you can go all out and spend a lot but you really dont have to.
swiming requires the right location (near a lake or river) or equipment (pool) but some people have those and dont even use them. for those people, choosing to start swiming as a hobby would be completely free.
just saying, me and my girlfriend dont have much money, but we do have a lot of hobbies, warhammer is by far the most expensive one between the 2 of us.
I know its still a lot less expensive then some other hobbies but some hobbies are ridiculous.
I still love warhammer.
dont really like games workshop but warhammer is cool.
Just got to say, if you're drawing with crayons, you're doing it wrong and probably don't take it seriously...unless you're some new age modern artist that will sell his crayon drawing for a thousand bucks. Any hobby can be cheap if you don't take it seriously. Even 40k. Borrow a friend's army. By some cheap Reaper minis and proxy, etc.
Warhammer is cheap because motoring, yachts and guns, love the logic.
It is ridiculously expensive for what it is, plastic toy soldiers on the table. I pay because I love the models and they really are best imo but don't try to delude myself that it makes any sense financialy.
It's not a travesty, but people that honestly believe GW balances this game around tournament play, or making sure each book is competitively comparable are deluding themselves.
If you're telling people that voice their concern for a problem to stop complaining about the problem you end up with silence and a problem. More importantly this is a forum for the fanbase to gather together and discuss their opinions. This thread in particular starts off with the OP saying he wants people to keep complaining, so really you'd be the one going against the grain in this thread.
Honestly I wish people would stop encouraging a bad rule set. I get it you don't want to put your best effort into the game to win. Why run when you can jog, right? Nobody is saying the army can't be fun to play. Nobody is saying that certain builds can't be competitive.
But you can't say that everything is perfectly fine just because your opponent isn't bringing his A game to play in a competition with you.
I will say it again. This game will never satisfy you from a balanced tournament perspective.
Because it can't or it won't?
It definitely can. There are plenty of complex games with balanced rules and balanced games with complex rules.
Why is it a bad thing that I ask for them to do the same?
If the game was balanced then everyone would win. Casual and competitive players. Or better yet, what's the harm in 40K being balanced. What do you have to lose from it?
Plumbumbarum wrote: Warhammer is cheap because motoring, yachts and guns, love the logic.
It is ridiculously expensive for what it is, plastic toy soldiers on the table. I pay because I love the models and they really are best imo but don't try to delude myself that it makes any sense financialy.
Agreed. It's very expensive, but at the end of the day it is a luxury hobby.
It's incredibly unproductive and pointless to complain how expensive an optional activity in your life is that is done solely for fun in most cases. If the prices are starting to become unreasonable to you, find a different hobby, or a different way to approach the hobby.
In a hobby that does not support actual competitive play without serious re-working of the rules? Yes, actually. Complaining that the new Codex is not on par with a pair of Codices that, when combined in certain builds, are largely and widely recognized as "broken as all hell" *is* doing it wrong. Because few, if any, other armies are on par with these builds. It's not the Tyranid Codex alone that suffers at the hands of the ultra-optimised TauDar builds.
This is not a game designed for competitive play. At all. That is why TOs have to tell people "you can bring this, you can't bring that. You can no more than 2 of those, no more than 1 of those, and you have to have at least 3 of that, this and that other thing. Also, we're disallowing the Flip A Table SR in this tourney, and instead replacing it with Bunny With A Pancake On Its Head."
And if your (non-specific you) complaint is that the Tyranid Codex is not capable of beating a very narrow selection of ultra-optimized lists from two of the top-most Codices in the game... well, to me, seems that the complaint is that your lists are not cheesy enough, rather than the TauDar builds being *too* cheesy (which is a complaint I could support to some extent).
Savageconvoy wrote:
The rules are sloppy and poorly balanced internally and externally, at best. This isn't something that should be defended. It honestly needs improvement and it should not be frowned upon to expect more from a company that is charging a premium for their product.
Well, you don't effin' say!
Newsflash: GW rules have *always* been poorly worded, sloppy, and often very poorly balanced. This is why each edition of the game is generally know for being the Edition of X, where X is assault, RazorSpam, WarpQuake, LeafBlower, TauDar or wtfever (and sometimes a combination of 2 or more). To expect anything different from 6th Ed, when 6th Ed has obviously not been trending in that direction (Codices Tau and Eldar being Exhibits A through ZZ, and the converse of Codices: CSM and Daemons being supporting evidence exhibits AA through Potato) is being particularly obstinate in a mindset that is simply not supported by the game, now or historically.
Sure, SM and Tau and Eldar were "great" Codices. AS was... far less impressive. In fact, the only truly impressive thing about it was that it was released at all. Otherwise, the primary star-player lost her main draw and the entire Army lost a vast bulk of its most-special mechanics. So it is not as if Tyranid is the only disappointing Codex in 6E so far.
Would it be nice if 40K was a clear, concise, easy to follow and understand compilation of rules, balanced units (both internally and externally), with each army being a viable option on the tabletop yet having a distinct playstyle and flavor all it's own? Feth, yes! That would be awesome!
40K has never, ever been that, though. To expect that it somehow should magically become that over 1 book is... mind-boggling.
Most importantly, though, if someone is having fun in their local games with a Codex that people don't like, then more power to 'em! The Codex works for them, they're having fun with it, and you (non-specific) probably never have to play against them for as long as you live. Everybody wins! The threads where they say "man, say what you will about it, I'm having a blast and so are my friends! I bet there's a super-secret Power 9000 list in here somewhere!" is not the thread to piss on their wheaties and tell them the Codex sucks.
It's not a travesty, but people that honestly believe GW balances this game around tournament play, or making sure each book is competitively comparable are deluding themselves.
If you're telling people that voice their concern for a problem to stop complaining about the problem you end up with silence and a problem. More importantly this is a forum for the fanbase to gather together and discuss their opinions. This thread in particular starts off with the OP saying he wants people to keep complaining, so really you'd be the one going against the grain in this thread.
Honestly I wish people would stop encouraging a bad rule set. I get it you don't want to put your best effort into the game to win. Why run when you can jog, right? Nobody is saying the army can't be fun to play. Nobody is saying that certain builds can't be competitive.
But you can't say that everything is perfectly fine just because your opponent isn't bringing his A game to play in a competition with you.
I will say it again. This game will never satisfy you from a balanced tournament perspective.
Because it can't or it won't?
It definitely can. There are plenty of complex games with balanced rules and balanced games with complex rules.
Why is it a bad thing that I ask for them to do the same?
If the game was balanced then everyone would win. Casual and competitive players. Or better yet, what's the harm in 40K being balanced. What do you have to lose from it?
I have already stated everyone would benefit from a more balanced and expertly crafted ruleset. I am not refuting this point.
My point is that that is not GW's modus operandi. It never has, and never will be.
You can hope, dream, pray.. whatever. Unless GW drastically changes their overall perspective and vision for the game (this will likely not happen anytime soon, if at all, if 6th edition hasn't proven this enough) every codex/additional supplement will continue to disappoint you.
Unless, of course, that supplement happens to be powerful (edit- broken compared to the bar set lower by the majority of the other books).
I just don't understand it, that is all. It's a vicious never-ending cycle with cries and the gnashing of teeth. It's perfectly reasonable to be upset with a company because of their business practices, goals, or products. That is your right.
What is unreasonable is expecting something different after nearly a decade. Some things are just not meant to be taken as seriously as they are, and quite honestly it isn't the least bit surprising to me that so many people dislike 40k simply because they have unrealistic expectations for what the game is/what they expect to get out of it.
There are alternatives that would suit your needs/tastes.
I think in the end the codex will be competitive, and GW knows it. You will only have to buy 3 dataslates.
Which is another thing against the codex. Even if it is a twisted way to fix "nids can't do allies" thing, it is still crap because it should be in the book, in form of FOC altering or sth, special rules etc. It is disrespectful of people paying 50$ for a book and a cash grab, and no amount of people owning armies in their casual friends circle is going to change that.
Psienesis wrote: The threads where they say "man, say what you will about it, I'm having a blast and so are my friends! I bet there's a super-secret Power 9000 list in here somewhere!" is not the thread to piss on their wheaties and tell them the Codex sucks.
So you're saying the thread that says
"I really hope people keep talking about how bad the Nid codex is..."
Where the Op also says
Let them think we are weak now, and we will strike hard before they know what hit them.
Is not the place to talk about how bad the Nid codex is?
Really?!
Psienesis wrote: The threads where they say "man, say what you will about it, I'm having a blast and so are my friends! I bet there's a super-secret Power 9000 list in here somewhere!" is not the thread to piss on their wheaties and tell them the Codex sucks.
So you're saying the thread that says
"I really hope people keep talking about how bad the Nid codex is..."
Where the Op also says
Let them think we are weak now, and we will strike hard before they know what hit them.
Is not the place to talk about how bad the Nid codex is?
Really?!
I am convinced these people are just trolling at this point. Hence why they keep resorting to the same strawman arguments.
I mean, you have one side saying they want balanced and well written rules that benefit everyone. And the other side that wants to tell people they are playing wrong, wants to refuse people from using what they purchase, and calls people names. It isn't even a debate at this point.
Psienesis wrote: The threads where they say "man, say what you will about it, I'm having a blast and so are my friends! I bet there's a super-secret Power 9000 list in here somewhere!" is not the thread to piss on their wheaties and tell them the Codex sucks.
So you're saying the thread that says
"I really hope people keep talking about how bad the Nid codex is..."
Where the Op also says
Let them think we are weak now, and we will strike hard before they know what hit them.
Is not the place to talk about how bad the Nid codex is?
Really?!
No.
I mean, Jesus, that line "we will strike hard before they know what hit them!" is, like, Saturday morning cartoon villain planning. All he needs is a large, white cat and a maniacal laugh to complete the scene.
Are you afraid that he might actually find a "OMGKillah!" list in the Tyranid Codex?
Are you going to play against him with your (whatever the heck it is you play) and be like when he somehow wtfpwns you by Turn 3 with a horde o' bugs?
No?
Then why do you care if he and his local group might end up with a list from Codex: Tyranids that is a "power list" in their meta?
I think instead of picking up the sword and shield and for 5 pages telling people what opinions this thread is allowed to contain, you should instead hit the yellow triangle on posts that you think break a rule, and try and remember that if you want to post an opinion without any dissenting feedback, a blog would be a better place for that.
To me, yellow triangle is for stuff that is patently offensive. Like, overtly racist, sexist or other "-ist" comments. Also, spam-bots.
Other than that, it's a forum. It's not serious business. Also, as I have pointed out more than a couple times, there *is* a thread just a bit down the page that specifically asks for people's opinions on the Tyranid Codex. Also also, this is less about people posting their opinions, and more about people trying to prove other people's opinions wrong. Me, I don't give a feth. But I think it's a pretty terrible thing for people to piss on something that someone else is obviously having fun with. That makes them donkey caves, and those I will hammer on until I get bored of doing it.
The OP didn't say he wanted opinions on the codex, he said that he hopes people keep talking it down, because he's having fun with it in his local groups, and hopes that they find some killer build in it that will take everyone by surprise. And then a bunch of donkey caves came in looking to get their Dreamcrusher perk, when there is a thread just down the page a bit (or might be up the page a bit as of this post) for posting their opinions on the Codex.
I'm glad you are winning your games. You know this entire thread is asking for a majority of the people to argue against you with a hand full supporting you.
Wait so you claim that all around the world people play with bad lists and only in tournaments ,people play with good list ? Well I can tell you that I have checked organoleptically , that at least in Poland the chance to see a normal army is much higher and not limited to tournaments. And am sure that there are other countries in the world where the game is played the same way.
when he somehow wtfpwns you by Turn 3 with a horde o' bugs?