In a letter to the editor published in The Wall Street Journal Perkins, a founding member of Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, asks whether a "progressive Kristallnacht" is coming. Perkins's letter is in response to an editorial on speech codes at American colleges.
"Writing from the epicenter of progressive thought, San Francisco, I would call attention to the parallels of fascist Nazi Germany to its war on its "one percent," namely its Jews, to the progressive war on the American one percent, namely the "rich," Perkins wrote in the letter to the editor.
He continued that he perceives "a rising tide of hatred of the successful one percent. There is outraged public reaction to the Google buses carrying technology workers from the city to the peninsula high-tech companies which employ them."
Perkins cites outrage over real-estate prices as an example of overblown liberal outrage.
"This is a very dangerous drift in our American thinking. Kristallnacht was unthinkable in 1930; is its descendent "progressive" radicalism unthinkable now?" Perkins concluded in the letter.
Perkins is listed as a partner emeritus on the Kleiner Perkins Caulfield & Byers website.
This post was updated.
Read the full letter to the editor below:
Regarding your editorial "Censors on Campus" (Jan. 18): Writing from the epicenter of progressive thought, San Francisco, I would call attention to the parallels of fascist Nazi Germany to its war on its "one percent," namely its Jews, to the progressive war on the American one percent, namely the "rich."
From the Occupy movement to the demonization of the rich embedded in virtually every word of our local newspaper, the San Francisco Chronicle, I perceive a rising tide of hatred of the successful one percent. There is outraged public reaction to the Google buses carrying technology workers from the city to the peninsula high-tech companies which employ them. We have outrage over the rising real-estate prices which these "techno geeks" can pay. We have, for example, libelous and cruel attacks in the Chronicle on our number-one celebrity, the author Danielle Steel, alleging that she is a "snob" despite the millions she has spent on our city's homeless and mentally ill over the past decades.
This is a very dangerous drift in our American thinking. Kristallnacht was unthinkable in 1930; is its descendent "progressive" radicalism unthinkable now?
Tom Perkins
San Francisco
Mr. Perkins is a founder of Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers.
The flaw in his thinking is that he's conflating the ability to turn money into larger amounts of money at the cost of other human beings in with a religion whose members were used as a scapegoat by a country left impoverished after being on the wrong side of a war.
So is this some new form of meta Godwin? Where the discussion is Godwined before it even reaches the internet?
Oh and a crazy rich guy saying things that don't make sense while trying to justify hanging on to his obscene wealth. Oh and he lives in San Fransico the city filled with rich people who hate themselves for being rich while doing absolutely nothing about it.
Maybe he should move to one of the dozens of other much saner metropolitan areas of the country?
The NSA needs to check this guy out in case he has any insider info on Benghazi and/or if any of these 'progressives' look like Obama's son and whether or not they have skittles.
If this is the quality of rich people in the US, then might I be so bold as to suggest murdering them followed by divvying up their stuff might be an actual improvement?
BaronIveagh wrote: If this is the quality of rich people in the US, then might I be so bold as to suggest murdering them followed by divvying up their stuff might be an actual improvement?
BaronIveagh wrote: If this is the quality of rich people in the US, then might I be so bold as to suggest murdering them followed by divvying up their stuff might be an actual improvement?
BaronIveagh wrote: If this is the quality of rich people in the US, then might I be so bold as to suggest murdering them followed by divvying up their stuff might be an actual improvement?
You realize you are suggesting murdering someone simply because they are either successful of lucky.
Either way, it makes you horrible for suggesting it.
Is he actually, genuinely suggesting that the Jews are equivalent to rich people in the US, i.e. that the Jews were the one with power in Nazi Germany? Because I think I've heard that "theory" before...
Regarding your editorial "Censors on Campus" (Jan. 18): Writing from the epicenter of progressive thought, San Francisco, I would call attention to the parallels of fascist Nazi Germany to its war on its "one percent," namely its Jews, to the progressive war on the American one percent, namely the "rich."
Was there a non-fascist Nazi Germany of which I am not aware?
At any rate, that's gibberish. The comparison is bad, and the language is worse. Someone had a senior moment.
BaronIveagh wrote: If this is the quality of rich people in the US, then might I be so bold as to suggest murdering them followed by divvying up their stuff might be an actual improvement?
Seaward wrote: The link he's going for is the scapegoating and vilifying of an undeserving group for everybody else's problems.
Because the tiny percentage of super wealthy are in no way responsible for growing inequality or the global instability caused by the banking and business system which made many of them (especially venture capitalists and other people who generate more money by virtue of having money) there money. Yep, it is totally a fair comparison to say that questioning the morality of 85 people controlling 50% of the worlds wealth is the same as claiming Jews betrayed Germany in WW1 and should die for it.
Steve steveson wrote: Because the tiny percentage of super wealthy are in no way responsible for growing inequality or the global instability caused by the banking and business system which made many of them (especially venture capitalists and other people who generate more money by virtue of having money) there money. Yep, it is totally a fair comparison to say that questioning the morality of 85 people controlling 50% of the worlds wealth is the same as claiming Jews betrayed Germany in WW1 and should die for it.
I explained the link he was going for, I did not say I agreed with it. Save your tirade for somebody who either cares or at least deserves it.
Seaward wrote: The link he's going for is the scapegoating and vilifying of an undeserving group for everybody else's problems.
It's a little early to self-righteously make that comparison, and a little ignorant of American politics to somehow think we hate the rich anymore now than we did 50 years ago. America and the Rich is like Kanye West and Kim Kardashian. We don't really want to be together but we hav ea baby now and neither of us wants to be accused of parental abandonment
I explained the link he was going for, I did not say I agreed with it. Save your tirade for somebody who either cares or at least deserves it.
I'll be over here lighting cigars with Benjamins.
I didn't say you agreed with it. I understand you were just clarifying the link he was making. I just felt it needed re-iterating how dumb that link was by tacking on to what you said and the use of argumentum ad absurdum.
Seaward wrote: The link he's going for is the scapegoating and vilifying of an undeserving group for everybody else's problems.
It's a little early to self-righteously make that comparison, and a little ignorant of American politics to somehow think we hate the rich anymore now than we did 50 years ago. America and the Rich is like Kanye West and Kim Kardashian. We don't really want to be together but we hav ea baby now and neither of us wants to be accused of parental abandonment
I don't think we had anything near as powerful in terms of allowing hate to feed off itself as the internet 50 years ago, so I don't think I'd agree.
I don't think we had anything near as powerful in terms of allowing hate to feed off itself as the internet 50 years ago, so I don't think I'd agree.
I would ague that, 50 years ago, there were far more echo chambers, and that they were more pervasive; hence all the opposition to the civil rights movement.
There really isn't much to say about this. The guy is making ridiculous comparisons. The Right Wing in this country is pretty strong, so I don't think he has to worry about the Extermination Camps yet.
I don't think we had anything near as powerful in terms of allowing hate to feed off itself as the internet 50 years ago, so I don't think I'd agree.
I disagree with this. I am old enough to have been an adult before the internet was such an ubiquitous thing, and I have been exposed to much wider spectrum of ideas and points of view since I started sailing the internents on the regular. For example, while I was aware of tin-foil hat crazy leftists, I had never conversed directly with one before. Similarly, I had never encountered a lassez-faire right winger in person who could articulate his ideas clearly before, either.
Easy E wrote: There really isn't much to say about this. The guy is making ridiculous comparisons. The Right Wing in this country is pretty strong, so I don't think he has to worry about the Extermination Camps yet.
But the Nazis were also right wing... On the extreme right of the political spectrum to be precise.
This guy's comparisons are wrong on so many levels. I could list all his mistakes, but I think most people here are more than capable of doing that themselves.
It is funny how some people always seem to feel a compulsive urge to compare everything to Nazis.
THe internet didn't bring ideas into existance so much as provided a venue by which those ideas can be expressed. I.E. There is no more hate for the rich now than there was before. Now you just get to hear about it because the guy harping about it over in Maine has a blog anyone can read.
The same thing is true for people who love the rich, of course. If there appears to be a lot of anti-rich sentiment around, perhaps that is because, compared to 10 years ago, the World Economic Crisis has created more resentment. We had the internet back then, obviously.
If the rich want to create the impression they are widely loved, or to fight back against the socialist blogohordes, or something, they could employ people to write pro-rich blogs and stuff like that.
IDK if this blogger is considered right wing, left wing, or neutral.
TPM is a lefty blog.
As to Perkins... he's a nutter imo.
However, if he'd want to have a rational conversation to this topic, be like Thomas Sowell:
Well, I think "earned" is the problem word in that sentence. Earned implies compensation in proportion to the work done. That is where people have a problem.
Well, I think "earned" is the problem word in that sentence. Earned implies compensation in proportion to the work done. That is where people have a problem.
Especially in regard to people like Paris Hilton and her ilk who have literally not "worked" a day in their lives, but instead get to live off the actual work their parents did. Guys like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, etc. who did something to build their company's into what they are "deserve" respect.
I appreciate that men and women who build their fortunes are entitled to their reward of their labors. But lets face it. There are people in the world today with so much money they can't spend all of it. Ever. Instead they sit on it until they die and their children promptly throw it all away on junk and legal fees for various felonies and civil torts that they end up getting away with while contributing relatively little to society. That money would be more useful elsewhere (hyperbole).
More seriously, who realistically needs to be earning millions of dollars yearly. It will not destroy their lives or hurt them at all to give even half of that away every april because they're still going to richer than pretty much everyone else.
LordofHats wrote: I appreciate that men and women who build their fortunes are entitled to their reward of their labors. But lets face it. There are people in the world today with so much money they can't spend all of it. Ever. Instead they sit on it until they die and their children promptly throw it all away on junk and legal fees for various felonies and civil torts that they end up getting away with while contributing relatively little to society. That money would be more useful elsewhere (hyperbole).
More seriously, who realistically needs to be earning millions of dollars yearly. It will not destroy their lives or hurt them at all to give even half of that away every april because they're still going to richer than pretty much everyone else.
There is also the point that people need to pay into the system that provides them with the ways and means of acquiring and protecting their vast wealth.
The fact that we actually hold the "Feth You Got Mine" ideal in high regard here in America is not only scary, its self destructive.
If you rich, congratulations you live in more comfort than 99.8% of the world ever will. This however, does not exempt you from contributing to society.
This however, does not exempt you from contributing to society.
Why not?
To play devil's advocate:
Define contribute. If they give 10% to charity they are contributing by provide funds for charitable relief. If they are spending 10% on hot babes and cool cars (or the inverse) they are dropping 10% into the economy and thus contributing to society.
The only way they ARE NOT contributing to society is if they are hoarding all their money in zinc and stuffing it in a well.
I'm going to come out and say spending huge loads of cash on expensive cars and hot women (while a dream for us all) isn't much of a boost to the economy. The highest end of the luxury industry (Ferrari for example) is really just rich people giving money to other rich people with a marginal benefit to everyone else.
That money could be better used improving the education system (because terrible), amking college educations cheaper, or helping the homeless. Better yet, use that money for something really good like advertising the corruption of the pharmicutical and healthcare industry and lobbying for change.
Buying an expensive car is cool, but it doesn't benefit society much.
Money spent into High wealth industry normally just feeds back into the exact same level of the economy that money came from.
Because I can tell you right now the workers who made that ultra hot cool car ain't getting most of that money.
Taxes are just an efficient way of helping the lower class because said companies making enough money for there top brass to live comfortable somehow cannot afford to pay their employees a living wage.
>Rich business man refuses to pay employees living wages
>Goverment forced to step in so people don't starve
>Rich man is taxed to keep people fed/alive
>Rich man whines about losing money
No matter what, somebodies gotta make sure people don't just die in the streets.
LordofHats wrote: I'm going to come out and say spending huge loads of cash on expensive cars and hot women (while a dream for us all) isn't much of a boost to the economy. The highest end of the luxury industry (Ferrari for example) is really just rich people giving money to other rich people with a marginal benefit to everyone else.
That money could be better used improving the education system (because terrible), amking college educations cheaper, or helping the homeless. Better yet, use that money for something really good like advertising the corruption of the pharmicutical and healthcare industry and lobbying for change.
Buying an expensive car is cool, but it doesn't benefit society much.
So "benefit" is now only defined as benefitting the homeless or making college education cheaper, or slanderous advertising?
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Alexzandvar wrote: Money spent into High wealth industry normally just feeds back into the exact same level of the economy that money came from.
And?
Because I can tell you right now the workers who made that ultra hot cool car ain't getting most of that money.
Labor is a major expense Capex and fixed cost are a major if not the major expense Inventory is a major expense All these send funds to other companies or the government and hundreds or thousands of jobs
Dividends are usually barely statistically relevant.
Taxes are just an inefficient way of helping the lower class
Corrected your typo
because said companies making enough money for there top brass to live comfortable somehow cannot afford to pay their employees a living wage.
Wait I thought we were talking about high end sports car employees. Have you seen their salaries?
No matter what, somebodies gotta make sure people don't just die in the streets.
Alexzandvar wrote: The fact that we actually hold the "Feth You Got Mine" ideal in high regard here in America is not only scary, its self destructive.
You see... attitudes like this is destructive. I don't see that.
If you rich, congratulations you live in more comfort than 99.8% of the world ever will. This however, does not exempt you from contributing to society.
In the US, at least... as of 2010, the top 10% of earners paid 70% of the taxes in the US.
Reconcile this chart to your "Feth You, I Got Mine" mentality.
Disclaimer: I do believe we need to update the tax code, but not for "redistribution of weath" reason... more, to even the playing field. (or, at least, fething reclassify what "income" truly is).
LordofHats wrote: THe internet didn't bring ideas into existance so much as provided a venue by which those ideas can be expressed. I.E. There is no more hate for the rich now than there was before. Now you just get to hear about it because the guy harping about it over in Maine has a blog anyone can read.
I would argue there is a good deal more hate for the rich now than there was before, as the internet has made the spread of information far, far easier than it previously was. So now when people do ludicrously stupid things like drive drunk, crash and kill 6 people, then walk away with barely a slap on the wrist, more people in more places not just in the US, but in the world, are hearing about it.
Basically, previously the rich could hide their dickish ways for more easily than they can now that information reaches the world in just a few seconds.
On the flip side of the coin, the generosity of the rich is more easily exposed through acts from buying $280,000 worth of toys for poor children, to fighting infectous diseases all over the globe.
Alexzandvar wrote: The fact that we actually hold the "Feth You Got Mine" ideal in high regard here in America is not only scary, its self destructive.
You see... attitudes like this is destructive. I don't see that.
If you rich, congratulations you live in more comfort than 99.8% of the world ever will. This however, does not exempt you from contributing to society.
In the US, at least... as of 2010, the top 10% of earners paid 70% of the taxes in the US.
Reconcile this chart to your "Feth You, I Got Mine" mentality.
Disclaimer: I do believe we need to update the tax code, but not for "redistribution of weath" reason... more, to even the playing field. (or, at least, fething reclassify what "income" truly is).
You need a personal income of $75,000 to get into the top 10%. If the top 10% had all the money and the rest of you had nothing, the income tax distribution would be even more skewed. It doesn't necessarily indicate anything meaningful.
So "benefit" is now only defined as benefitting the homeless or making college education cheaper, or slanderous advertising?
Those are just examples of things more beneficial than a super cool gas chugger that money could be put towards. And if it's slanderous to point out that the healthcare industry is corrupt, then just about anyone words uttered by anyone about anyone else is slanderous.
Because its not. I wouldn't consider anyone making less than $120k a year to be particularly wealthy. Better of than many certainly, but they're not lighting cigars with benjamins and making hedgefunds for their grand children rich. I don't even know if the people I'm concerned with at even the 1%, they might be the .5%.
So "benefit" is now only defined as benefitting the homeless or making college education cheaper, or slanderous advertising?
Those are just examples of things more beneficial than a super cool gas chugger that money could be put towards. And if it's slanderous to point out that the healthcare industry is corrupt, then just about anyone words uttered by anyone about anyone else is slanderous.
Er...no.
You're arguing an entire industry is corrupt.
You're then arguing spending moeney to say that is a one of your fiew listed benefits to society.
Because it is. Anyone who has failed to realize it at this point just isn't paying attention (and you'd think people would jump on it, ACA and all that).
So "benefit" is now only defined as benefitting the homeless or making college education cheaper, or slanderous advertising?
Those are just examples of things more beneficial than a super cool gas chugger that money could be put towards. And if it's slanderous to point out that the healthcare industry is corrupt, then just about anyone words uttered by anyone about anyone else is slanderous.
That gas chugger creates hundreds of jobs. What is your metric for societal benefit? Where is the Bureau of Societal Benefit Metrics?
feeder wrote: I disagree with this. I am old enough to have been an adult before the internet was such an ubiquitous thing, and I have been exposed to much wider spectrum of ideas and points of view since I started sailing the internents on the regular. For example, while I was aware of tin-foil hat crazy leftists, I had never conversed directly with one before. Similarly, I had never encountered a lassez-faire right winger in person who could articulate his ideas clearly before, either.
I could be wrong, but I don't think self-sustaining perpetual motion echo chambers like Huffington Post and DailyKos existed prior to the internet. While the internet has certainly made it easier for people to find information, if they want it, it's also made it easier for people to get together in their little cocoons and feed off of each other's outrage while ignoring anything that contradicts what they wish to believe.
It's all the arguments made over the years about talk radio, basically.
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LordofHats wrote: Because its not. I wouldn't consider anyone making less than $120k a year to be particularly wealthy. Better of than many certainly, but they're not lighting cigars with benjamins and making hedgefunds for their grand children rich. I don't even know if the people I'm concerned with at even the 1%, they might be the .5%.
Kilkrazy wrote: $75,000 doesn't sound an awful lot to me, actually.
Really dependent on where you live.
Again... I ain't saying it's perfect, but you're awfully dismissive of that chart.
What are we really arguing about.
Spell it out for me.
See my post about top 1% (or less) tier people whining about taxes when in reality often times they wouldn't be saddled with rising taxes if the very companies they controlled actually yknow payed people something they can live on.
The increasement in "Entitlements" in the US is just the private sector shifting the burden of caring for people unto the government in order to increase the bottom line for the highest ranking employee's
That gas chugger creates hundreds of jobs. What is your metric for societal benefit? Where is the Bureau of Societal Benefit Metrics?
You really want to argue that the luxury car industry creates more jobs than the non-luxury car industry? Ferrari is worth like 10 billion as a company. Ford is worth nearly 200 billion. In the grand scheme of things, the luxury goods market isn't worth much. it's a small industry run by social elites that caters to social elites. Now I'm fine with that industry existing (Ferarri's are cool) but I'm not going to stand here and pretend that someone buying a watch worth more than I'll make in a decade is really helping the economy as much as the guy making $5 Pokemon wallets.
Most of the money for that watch leaves the hands of one rich guy and goes straight into the hands of another. They have far fewer employees and far less of that money works its way down the totem pole. Buying expensive things costs a lot of money but it doesn't necessarily translate to the trickle down gravy train people like to pretend it is.
It has to be addressed that income disparity DOES need to be addressed by the government unless we want to make whats currently happening in the Ukraine a reality here.
Its not a matter of if people will riot if it gets any worse, its when people will riot for how bad it already is.
Because it is. Anyone who has failed to realize it at this point just isn't paying attention (and you'd think people would jump on it, ACA and all that).
According to you it is. Opinions are not facts. Sorry.
Because it is. Anyone who has failed to realize it at this point just isn't paying attention (and you'd think people would jump on it, ACA and all that).
According to you it is. Opinions are not facts. Sorry.
This is the same thing as saying evolution is a lie because its a theory.
Sure its an opinion, but it has a lot of evidence in its favor
According to you it is. Opinions are not facts. Sorry.
An industry that plays shell games with patent law, artificial drives up prices every five to six years, bribes doctors to push expensive drugs that are functionally identical to cheaper ones already on the market, and does everything humanly possible to subvert regulations about drug trials is an opinion.
Kilkrazy wrote: $75,000 doesn't sound an awful lot to me, actually.
Really dependent on where you live.
Again... I ain't saying it's perfect, but you're awfully dismissive of that chart.
What are we really arguing about.
Spell it out for me.
I am dismissive because the chart is essentially a mathematical trick used to justify the current situation on the grounds of "because statistics".
If the top 10% had all of the money, they would pay all of the tax. If the income was more distributed, the proportion of tax paid by the bottom 90% would increase
Why is 75% a good situation for society as a whole? Maybe it's a terrible situation. Maybe the top 10% should pay a lot less tax, or maybe a lot more.
That gas chugger creates hundreds of jobs. What is your metric for societal benefit? Where is the Bureau of Societal Benefit Metrics?
You really want to argue that the luxury car industry creates more jobs than the non-luxury car industry?
Thats your straw man. I never said anything about the nonluxury market one way or the other. I didn't even say the rich were blowing their wads on luxury cars, just cars. They could be like Elvis and buying fifty cars for his dearest friends.
Ferrari is worth like 10 billion as a company.
no fine Italian models were harmed in the making of this car.
Ford is worth nearly 200 billion. In the grand scheme of things, the luxury goods market isn't worth much.
You're right. It would be relevant if it were... relevant to anything anyone posted.
it's a small industry run by awesome car guys that caters to guys who like awesome cars but aren't manly enough to ride a hog.
Corrected your typo.
Now I'm fine with that industry existing (Ferarri's are cool) but I'm not going to stand here and pretend that someone buying a watch worth more than I'll make in a decade is really helping the economy as much as the guy making $5 Pokemon wallets.
If you weren't Chinese you would. Your example only helps the Chinese.
Most of the money for that watch leaves the hands of one rich guy and goes straight into the hands of another.
Again you don't get math or budgets do you. It goes into the hands of employees then small companies supplying parts, and large companies providing steel and other materials, and guys who built the plant and the tooling, and the local municipality that supplies the power.
They have far fewer employees and far less of that money works its way down the totem pole. Buying expensive things costs a lot of money but it doesn't necessarily translate to the trickle down gravy train people like to pretend it is.
Better than just slandering nurses and doctors which seems to directly appear on the List Of APPROVED SOCIETAL EXPENDITURES.
Because it is. Anyone who has failed to realize it at this point just isn't paying attention (and you'd think people would jump on it, ACA and all that).
According to you it is. Opinions are not facts. Sorry.
This is the same thing as saying evolution is a lie because its a theory.
No its saying you're blowing smoke out your ass without backing it up. In essence your moutyh is writing checks your butt can't cash.
Seriously, please never ever be on a jury, unless I am the defendant of course, because my lawyer will play your heart like a fiddle.
According to you it is. Opinions are not facts. Sorry.
An industry that plays shell games with patent law, artificial drives up prices every five to six years, bribes doctors to push expensive drugs that are functionally identical to cheaper ones already on the market, and does everything humanly possible to subvert regulations about drug trials is an opinion.
Again, facts support, else you're just attacking nurses. Evidently you standard for SOECITEL BENEFIT is attacking nurses. Does kicking sand at babies also count under your schema? It has the same benefit.
Kilkrazy wrote: $75,000 doesn't sound an awful lot to me, actually.
Really dependent on where you live.
Again... I ain't saying it's perfect, but you're awfully dismissive of that chart.
What are we really arguing about.
Spell it out for me.
I am dismissive because the chart is essentially a mathematical trick used to justify the current situation on the grounds of "because statistics".
If the top 10% had all of the money, they would pay all of the tax. If the income was more distributed, the proportion of tax paid by the bottom 90% would increase
Why is 75% a good situation for society as a whole? Maybe it's a terrible situation. Maybe the top 10% should pay a lot less tax, or maybe a lot more.
i think we've established that facts and logic haveno place in this thread.
Thats your straw man. I never said anything about the nonluxury market one way or the other. I didn't even say the rich were blowing their wads on luxury cars, just cars. They could be like Elvis and buying fifty cars for his dearest friends.
It's not a straw man. that's my argument from the get go. Luxury goods are not as powerful in the economy as other things, doesn't benefit as many people, and in my opinion all the money spent on them could find better places to be used. EDIT: As if there wasn't room to increase taxes and still have a mountain of cash left over for those luxury goods which people in the multi-millionaire position often have enough money to do.
This is abundantly clear when I first brought it up. If you don't disagree with that, then we're arguing over nothing.
Your example only helps the Chinese.
Chinese people are people too.
Better than just slandering nurses and doctors which seems to directly appear on the List Of APPROVED SOCIETAL EXPENDITURES.
Now you're making a straw man. I never said anything about nurses and doctors do get bribed. I'm not even going to post links use google you'll find plenty of articles on the subject.
The Healthcare industry is corrupt and does a lot of dirt business. Some doctors are more complicit than others (nurses not being the ones to make medical decisions are probably innocent). If they don't want to be called corrupt they can stop being corrupt. Live in your fantasy land if you want but the problems with the medical industrial complex have been well established for nearly 30 years. Its just that no one listens (as made evident here).
Kilkrazy wrote: $75,000 doesn't sound an awful lot to me, actually.
Really dependent on where you live.
Again... I ain't saying it's perfect, but you're awfully dismissive of that chart.
What are we really arguing about.
Spell it out for me.
See my post about top 1% (or less) tier people whining about taxes when in reality often times they wouldn't be saddled with rising taxes if the very companies they controlled actually yknow payed people something they can live on.
O.o
You see... this screams class envy to me. Sorry.
The increasement in "Entitlements" in the US is just the private sector shifting the burden of caring for people unto the government in order to increase the bottom line for the highest ranking employee's
Man... that's jaded as all hell.
It goes in cycles.... always has. Once the employment environment get better, those "increasement" will naturally decrease.
Again you're assuming facts not in evidence. Repeating it ten times only works in the re-education camp. Proof is required.
As to the luxury issue. I never brought it up, but pretty much everything besides food and basic clothing is a luxury. But we'll switch it to Honda. Lets say der uber richer spends 10% of his money on Honda cars, motorcycles, jetskis, and lawn equipment. What if he takes one dollar and throws it at a candy nurse and psits on her. Does that work? After all he's attacking the health care industry. Is he now a saint?
Given the nature of the modern world calling a Civic a luxury item is kind of disenginuous.
And again, at this point you're only showing ignorance. Literally. Sources on the corruption are so plentiful you can find them in a simple Google search (not even mentioning dozens of books and hundreds of journal articles on the subject, go use JSTOR for an hour) and I'm not going to play that game. Denying that the healthcare industry often engages in fraud and corruption is simply the result of not paying attention, not a righteous stand for truth.
Alexzandvar wrote: It has to be addressed that income disparity DOES need to be addressed by the government unless we want to make whats currently happening in the Ukraine a reality here.
Its not a matter of if people will riot if it gets any worse, its when people will riot for how bad it already is.
From each and his ability to each and his need eh?
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LordofHats wrote: Given the nature of the modern world calling a Civic a luxury item is kind of disenginuous.
Er...no.
{quote]
And again, at this point you're only showing ignorance. Literally. Sources on the corruption are so plentiful you can find them in a simple Google search (not even mentioning dozens of books and hundreds of journal articles on the subject, go use JSTOR for an hour) and I'm not going to play that game. Denying that the healthcare industry often engages in fraud and corruption is simply the result of not paying attention, not a righteous stand for truth.
You're still not putting forth facts or studies. Its like me saying democrats babies. Absent proof thats just a slanderous attack.
But again, slander appears to be on the LIST OF APPROVED SOCIAL EXPENDITURES, so its ok.
LordofHats wrote: Given the nature of the modern world calling a Civic a luxury item is kind of disenginuous.
And again, at this point you're only showing ignorance. Literally. Sources on the corruption are so plentiful you can find them in a simple Google search (not even mentioning dozens of books and hundreds of journal articles on the subject, go use JSTOR for an hour) and I'm not going to play that game. Denying that the healthcare industry often engages in fraud and corruption is simply the result of not paying attention, not a righteous stand for truth.
Lord... can I interject something here?
In all walks of life, someone, or some company will try to circumvent the system.
That's a fact of life.
I object to your premise that "the healthcare industry often engages in fraud and corruption " as if it's SOP for the entire industry. Especially in large scale healthcare companies, they spend a gak ton on compliance to reduce fraud, because if they don't (whether it's intended or not) that's the quickest way to get sanctioned by the State/Fed.
You're brush is too wide in this, find a smaller brush please.
The increasement in "Entitlements" in the US is just the private sector shifting the burden of caring for people unto the government in order to increase the bottom line for the highest ranking employee's
Man... that's jaded as all hell.
It goes in cycles.... always has. Once the employment environment get better, those "increasement" will naturally decrease.
It's jaded, but look at McDonalds for the effect in action.
I am dismissive because the chart is essentially a mathematical trick used to justify the current situation on the grounds of "because statistics".
You're still dismissive... take that chart, and compare it to the fact that 47% of the lower income scale do NOT pay any excess Federal Taxes (in many case, they'll get a return!).
So... on the one hand, the top 10% pays the vast majority of the taxes...
On the other, the lower 47% don't owe any federal taxes.
Wrap you head around that.
If the top 10% had all of the money, they would pay all of the tax. If the income was more distributed, the proportion of tax paid by the bottom 90% would increase
Why is 75% a good situation for society as a whole? Maybe it's a terrible situation. Maybe the top 10% should pay a lot less tax, or maybe a lot more.
That is a debate we must continually have. I think our current tax code is way too complicated with too many government sponser'ed "losers and winners".
That's why I'd love to have a 3-tier'ed flat rate of some sort. But, I'm likely going to see the Emperor reincarnated in front of me, than THAT to happen.
When the US had the strongest growth in recent history, it had more income equality/greater buying power among the middle class.
And it makes sense.
Give a poor family $100, and what will they spend it on? Food, clothes, bills, toys, furniture, etc.
Give a rich family $100, and what will they spend it on? Some of it might go back into the US, but a large portion ends up sitting there, not doing anything, or is spent on foreign items like luxury Italian cars or homes in the Caribbean.
The best illustration of this is how much money goes back into the economy via something like food stamps, versus something like the Bush Tax cuts, especially once you isolate the $250,000 income and above tax cuts. Food Stamps pump over $1 back into the economy per $1 spent, thanks to money cycling through the economy from person to person. By comparison, the Bush tax cuts added something like $0.30 per $1 spent.
The benefit of a large middle class with a great deal of spending power is obvious. The problem is how do we expand that middle class and pull up the poor while not violating the rights of the wealthy.
Personally, I'm for transferring our tax system to a much more incentive based system as you reach certain wealth thresholds (with a more gradual increase than a sudden jump which makes earning that $1 over the previous tax level unappetizing). For income taxes, eliminate most loopholes above a certain threshold and increase penalties for hiding money. Capital Gains should be folded into regular income, and not taxed at the lower rate. For corporate taxes, a similar sliding increase based on company value makes sense, but include the ability to get tax breaks for full-time jobs with benefits, with the caveat that they don't kick in until a short period of time has passed and only last for the duration of employment or several years, whichever comes first (with the further caveat that replacing one full-time employee with another doesn't trigger the tax cut, a provision designed to keep people from firing employees after the tax benefit has ended in order to hire someone new for a new tax benefit).
For example, if Walmart wants to hire all their employees part time with no benefits, they're going to be paying a high rate of corporate tax with no loopholes. If they instead hire a large chunk of people full-time with benefits, they'll have a lower tax rate.
As for the article in the OP? It's a stupid comparison. The rich aren't in any danger of having their doors knocked down and dragged into the street. The rich clearly know that too, after all, if they had any fear that that might happen, you'd think they'd handle their wealth a little differently. The argument is designed purely to try and make those arguing for steps to lessen inequality look like terrible people.
I am dismissive because the chart is essentially a mathematical trick used to justify the current situation on the grounds of "because statistics".
You're still dismissive... take that chart, and compare it to the fact that 47% of the lower income scale do NOT pay any excess Federal Taxes (in many case, they'll get a return!).
So... on the one hand, the top 10% pays the vast majority of the taxes...
On the other, the lower 47% don't owe any federal taxes.
Wrap you head around that.
That is only the flip side of the same coin. You want the poor to pay more taxes? Get their income to reach the level of paying taxes.
In all walks of life, someone, or some company will try to circumvent the system.
That's a fact of life.
I don't disagree,
I object to your premise that "the healthcare industry often engages in fraud and corruption " as if it's SOP for the entire industry. Especially in large scale healthcare companies, they spend a gak ton on compliance to reduce fraud, because if they don't (whether it's intended or not) that's the quickest way to get sanctioned by the State/Fed.
Clearly the best way to commit fraud is to spend no money on fraud reduction. The Feds will surely be fooled by the sheer audacity
Heard about what the Sisters of Saint Francis (now the Franciscan Alliance) have been doing throughout the Mid-West? Forcing good doctors out of work with trumped up charges ranging from insanity to drug distribution to steal their practices and then get their license repealed so they can never practice again with nice gag orders so they can't talk about it. I know this because its big talk in rural Indiana and Illinois and dozens of small one doctor and family practices were stolen. It never makes big news because their contracts don't allow them to go to the press less they get sued and even if they did, the company that did it to them would just cite their own psychiatrists who declared them all crazy over trivial issues of stress or fraud reports from the (oh look the fraud department) that said they were distributing drugs with... medically valid perscriptions.
And that's just one example. Tiny brushes don't even begin to cover it.
I have a simple solution for the whole bloody problem: return income tax levels to what they were during WW2. That would be about 94% tax on incomes above Three million dollars per annum (adjusted for 2013 dollars). They also capped executive pay and controlled prices and wages. Oddly, it worked.
I have a simple solution for the whole bloody problem: return income tax levels to what they were during WW2. That would be about 94% tax on incomes above Three million dollars per annum (adjusted for 2013 dollars). They also capped executive pay and controlled prices and wages. Oddly, it worked.
Works for me. BaronIveagh wins the thread. I'd duck though. Corporate snipers are coming as we speak.
Frazzled wrote: Works for me. BaronIveagh wins the thread. I'd duck though. Corporate snipers are coming as we speak.
It wouldn't be the first time I made some company's dog house. I think there are still people pissed about me outing an illegal logging operation. There may or may not have been some fire involved, and a little property damage may have occurred.
However, if he'd want to have a rational conversation to this topic, be like Thomas Sowell:
So, if one wishes to have a rational conversation on the matter at hand he should be disingenuous?
Only until his conversational opponent notices. It's a clever way to get a few points early on. If you're fast enough about it, you can win the conversation altogether before the opponent realizes what's happened.
I think thanks to my time on the internet I'm getting immune to self-pitying nonsense, because it's only really the historical stupidity of the comparison that pisses me off. I mean, there are actual real examples of the rich being scapegoated for a problem that was actually beyond them - General Grog rightly points out that the Communist takeover in Russia would have been an example that actually makes sense.
Now, comparing 'I think we need to talk about income equality' to the Communist uprising would still be stupid, self-pitying nonsense, but at least it would be historically informed analogy, instead of this idiocy of comparing it to Nazi Germany and the Jews. I mean, who's side do you think the moneyed interests were on in Germany? The Socialists, or the Nazis? fething idiot.
Seaward wrote: The link he's going for is the scapegoating and vilifying of an undeserving group for everybody else's problems.
Which makes sense as long as we maintain the assumption that each person's individual wealth is completely a function of their own personal virtue, and the greater system at large plays no part in allocating the economy's scarce production to various members of the population.
Given that's a completely insane assumption... well then it becomes clear that comparing Nazi Germany to a push for greater equality in income should, to anyone who's somewhat sensible, be seen as completely pants on head crazy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LordofHats wrote: It's a little early to self-righteously make that comparison, and a little ignorant of American politics to somehow think we hate the rich anymore now than we did 50 years ago. America and the Rich is like Kanye West and Kim Kardashian.
It isn't so much that hatred of the rich has changed, more that an increasing number of people are beginning to realise they're missing out on a reasonable share. That poverty isn't just a thing that happens to them, and is the result of personal moral failings, but a thing that happens to lots of people and often for the simple reason that 60+ hours of work doesn't provide enough income when you earn a basic wage.
See how it says 'self identified' in the graph? Well the actual spread of people who are lower, middle and upper class has changed very little in 5 years... what's changed is people's self awareness of where they really sit in the economic totem pole.
whembly wrote: However, if he'd want to have a rational conversation to this topic, be like Thomas Sowell:
Because, Mr Sowell, 'greed' is not a comment on 'mine' and 'yours', but a comment on personal wealth and consumption. 'Mine' and 'yours' are important parts of any economic system, but so is equality.
Ignoring that, framing it away with a strangely worded bit of nonsense, is not actually rational at all.
whembly wrote: However, if he'd want to have a rational conversation to this topic, be like Thomas Sowell:
Because, Mr Sowell, 'greed' is not a comment on 'mine' and 'yours', but a comment on personal wealth and consumption. 'Mine' and 'yours' are important parts of any economic system, but so is equality.
Ignoring that, framing it away with a strangely worded bit of nonsense, is not actually rational at all.
The odd thing is that I know people who have been part of a division of a company who have produced record results for said company, and use that as justification for asking for a pay raise, and that's "greedy", according to the managers they were bargaining with, yet it's not "greed" for those on the top to pocket that difference.
whembly wrote: However, if he'd want to have a rational conversation to this topic, be like Thomas Sowell:
Because, Mr Sowell, 'greed' is not a comment on 'mine' and 'yours', but a comment on personal wealth and consumption. 'Mine' and 'yours' are important parts of any economic system, but so is equality.
Ignoring that, framing it away with a strangely worded bit of nonsense, is not actually rational at all.
'Mine' and 'yours' is an important part for clear demarcation of what you've earned. It's property rights.
So, the whole "income inequality" is nothing more than political punchline.
Personal wealth and consumptions should have no bearing in determining, 'he has enough'.
Dramatic stories portraying a widening inequality of income and a disappearing middle class in America have permeated the media in recent years. These stories have been based, almost universally, on biased analyses which manipulate and distort the underlying economic facts.
Data generated by the Census Bureau, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the Federal Reserve and other nonpartisan sources refute claims commonly made by the left. For example, data from such agencies show that:
Differences in family income largely reflect differences in how many members of a family actually work -- and how hard they work.
Income is about as widely distributed today as at any time in American history, and income is nowhere nearly as concentrated among top earners as it was in the period before World War II.
Americans in all income groups have prospered, or have failed to prosper, together. Gains by upper-income Americans have not come at the expense of middle- or lower-income Americans. Nor has anyone else gained in those periods when higher-income families have lost ground.
The best era in recent history for middle-income and lower-income American families was the Reagan boom, which lasted from 1982 to 1989. During that period, middle-class families saw their real incomes grow by an average of 12.6 percent, while lowest-quintile families saw an average increase in real earnings of 12.9 percent.
There is a remarkable degree of income mobility in the American economy. Today's "poor" are tomorrow's "rich," and vice versa. To a considerable extent, income distribution reflects obvious demographic factors. For example, workers in their prime earning years generally make much more money than those who are starting out in life or are retired.
Basic economic data do not support the gloomy picture promoted by the left. Moreover, the data show that the last 25 years do not represent an undifferentiated upward or downward trend for middle- and lower-income Americans. The Carter years, for example, were an economic disaster; the Reagan years were a bonanza; and the years since have been characterized by stagnation and downward drift.
The data certainly do not suggest that higher taxes, increased government spending, or hyper-regulation of the economy will benefit middle-income or lower-income citizens.
In recent months, the debate has been expanded to include the distribution of wealth (as opposed to just income). Liberal claims here, too, are based on manipulated data and faulty reasoning. More fundamentally, the wealth inequality debate should focus on what public policies will aid the accumulation of wealth by more, not fewer, American families.
Foreword
To borrow a fistful of boxing metaphors, pound for pound and jab for jab, this paper on income inequality pummels as many myths into submission as has any American Experiment publication over the last half-dozen years. In doing so, John H. Hinderaker and Scott W. Johnson cite numerous examples of statistical mistakes and misrepresentations when it comes to how income and wealth have come to be distributed (or more accurately, earned) in the United States. Just as importantly, they show how such fictions have already seriously contorted national debate and policymaking.
In simplest form, "The Truth About Income Inequality" argues that our nation is not growing economically skewed in unprecedented and undemocratic ways, contrary to rising assertions in various quarters about the supposed unfairness of the "Reagan" and "Republican" revolutions. Sure, loads of numbers have been thrown about since the 1980s "proving" that America is growing less fair. But as Messrs. Hinderaker and Johnson persuasively demonstrate in detail, those numbers and interpretations are flat-out wrong. Here's an example:
The left routinely issues warnings about the galloping death of the middle class, arbitrarily defined here as families with incomes between $15,000 and $50,000 annually, in constant 1990 dollars. As Messrs. Hinderaker and Johnson write, there is "a kernel of truth in this contention," but not as commonly understood. Yes, they acknowledge, a smaller percentage of families were in this income category in 1990 compared to 1970. But all of the net statistical decline, they show, was caused by members moving into a higher income category, above $50,000.
Having said and relayed this, you should know that I'm generally one of the first in my circle of associates and friends to recognize that making a living -- supporting a family -- can be increasingly tough for young and poorly trained men and women. Certainly it was more possible a generation and two generations ago for ill-equipped breadwinners to actually win, or at least scrape by, than is frequently the case now. This is but another way of saying that the economic premium on a decent education has unsurprisingly and rightly grown over time.
Likewise, given a decade and more of corporate downsizing and "reinventing," I would like to think myself quick to recognize that many workers, perhaps especially older ones, feel less secure about their jobs and livelihoods than they once did. Once more, as with the nervousness of many younger workers above, these worries can be well-grounded.
But as the following pages meticulously show, in no way are such understandable concerns synonymous with a radical skewing or fraying of America's economic compact. As the authors make convincingly and quantitatively clear, the United States remains a nation of extraordinary opportunity and mobility. Or, from another angle, the evidence is bountiful that the "rich" are not getting richer, as is routinely claimed, at the expense of a newly trapped caste of left-behind Americans.
This is the second time that John Hinderaker and Scott Johnson have teamed up on a Center paper, as they wrote the very good "Lani Guinier Reconsidered" in August 1993, right after her nomination as U.S. Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights appropriately collapsed. Mr. Hinderaker received his law degree from Harvard University and his undergraduate degree from Dartmouth College. Mr. Johnson did his law work at the University of Minnesota and also attended Dartmouth as an undergraduate. They both practice law in Minneapolis and write frequently as a team for local and national publications.
"The Truth About Income Inequality" is not only a superb piece of argumentation, it is also a first-rate piece of journalism, as in addition to mastering arcane documents, Messrs. Hinderaker and Johnson interviewed key researchers and players in and out of government in this exceedingly technical, not always high-minded controversy. The essay in hand is a major breakthrough and contribution to straight talk and intellectual honesty, and my colleagues and I in American Experiment are terrifically proud to publish it. My great thanks to them.
My large thanks as well to Mr. and Mrs. Fred T. Lanners, Jr., for their generosity in underwriting this project and in assuring its wide dissemination. They are valued, long-time supporters of the Center.
American Experiment members receive free copies of almost all Center publications, including "The Truth About Income Inequality." Additional copies are $4 for members and $5 for nonmembers. Bulk discounts are available for schools, civic groups and other organizations. Please note our phone and address on the previous page for membership and other information.
Thanks very much, and as always, I welcome your comments.
Mitchell B. Pearlstein
President
December 1995
Introduction
The proposition that income inequality is a problem, and a growing one, has become a staple of the left. Assertions of a "widening income gap between rich and poor Americans" and a "disappearing middle class" appear daily in the nation's newspapers as the refrain of liberal politicians and sympathetic journalists.1 By dint of repetition these assertions have attained the status of conventional wisdom; most commentators no longer consider it necessary to cite evidence to support them. Examples of this phenomenon could be multiplied endlessly, but a typical instance is the claim by Michael Lind, senior editor of the New Republic writing in the New York Times Book Review, that "income inequality in the United States has reached proportions not seen since the Great Depression."2 No authority was deemed necessary to support this rather startling claim -- which, as the data set forth below show, is entirely false.
Not surprisingly, politicians -- usually Democrats, but also including such Republicans as Pat Buchanan -- have seized on this conventional wisdom and sought to turn it to partisan advantage. In their hands, assertions of unprecedented income inequality invariably accompany pleas for higher taxes, more government spending on social welfare programs, or expanded government regulation of the economy. Some commentators and politicians call explicitly for redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor.3
Before adopting measures that seem calculated to hamper economic growth and slow the creation of wealth generally, the relevant data should be scrupulously examined. The purpose of this paper is to review the basic data on income distribution in America, both contemporary and historical, in order to evaluate the truth of the proposition that the distribution of income is unfairly and increasingly skewed toward the rich, to the detriment of the poor and middle class. Equally important, we will try to put the data on income distribution into the larger context of work, achievement and opportunity in a mostly-free economy.
For it goes without saying that in a free economy, some people will always earn much more money than others, and a given person will, during some stages of his life, earn much more than in other stages. It is therefore far from clear that there is such a thing as a "right" distribution of income, and to our knowledge, no critic of current patterns of income distribution has set forth any meaningful criteria by which the "right" income distribution can be determined. Instead of articulating such criteria, critics have generally been content to argue that income inequality is "increasing" or "widening" and have assumed that it goes without saying that such a trend, if true, would be bad. Both the belief that income inequality is increasing, and the assumption that any such increase must necessarily be bad, need to be critically examined.
Inequality of income and inequality of work
Discussions of income distribution are inherently misleading in one fundamental respect: Income is not distributed, it is earned. This fact, while obvious, is often overlooked. Upper-income Americans are routinely derided as "the rich," as though they typically achieved their status by clipping coupons. Both politicians and journalists often seem to think that "the rich" are at best lucky, and at worst criminal. The implicit message is that upper-income citizens should be grateful that the government allows them to keep some of their money. Richard Gephardt's reference to people who earn good incomes as "winners" in "the lottery of life" is one infamous example of this attitude.
But upper-income Americans did not win a lottery. To a remarkable extent, differences in income relate directly to differences in work. For the most part, upper-income American families do better than lower-income families because they work more.
In 1990, of the families that comprised the lowest 20 percent in household income -- the bottom quintile -- 55 percent had no income earners at all. And even among the bottom-quintile family members who were employed, only 24 percent worked full-time. On the other hand, in the highest quintile of income (i.e., the top 20 percent), 83 percent of families had two or more income earners. And, amazingly, 11 percent of families that ranked in the top income quintile included four or more income earners.4
In other words, most families with high incomes contain no corporate chief executives or professional baseball players, much less lottery winners. The "fortunate fifth," in Robert Reich's endlessly repeated phrase, isn't fortunate -- it is hard-working. Most upper-income American families simply work more jobs and longer hours than their neighbors. It is fair to question whether the fact that harder work is typically rewarded with higher incomes really constitutes "inequality."
The supposedly disappearing middle class
Since the late 1980s, liberals have argued that the middle class is disappearing. They have portrayed America as a country increasingly divided between rich and poor, with fewer and fewer families in between. Statistics have been manipulated shamelessly to make this claim appear plausible. In particular, many left-of-center commentators have argued that, since 1970, the percentage of American families in the "middle class" -- defined as those with incomes between $15,000 and $50,000 -- has declined.
There is a kernel of truth in this contention, as the chart below shows. The percentage of families in the arbitrarily defined "middle class" did decline between 1970 and 1990, from about 63 percent of all families to about 55 percent. But this statistical "decline" of the middle class did not occur because its members were losing ground. On the contrary, all of the net statistical "decline" of the middle class was caused by its members moving into the higher income category -- families with incomes in excess of $50,000 in constant 1990 dollars. That category grew from 24 percent of the population in 1970 to 32 percent in 1990.
Distribution of Family Income
In other words, the middle class hasn't declined, it has become more prosperous. While some politicians may be nostalgic for the days when a large majority of Americans were locked into an income level arbitrarily defined as "middle class," it is hard to see any reason to complain about the fact that many people have moved into a higher income category.
The table below gives a more detailed picture of the fortunes of middle-income Americans. The table divides the population into five income quintiles, and charts the average income of each quintile from 1973 to 1991. All figures are in constant 1991 dollars, so all gains are real and not the result of inflation.
Real Average Family Income Since 1973 (in constant 1991 dollars)
Year
A number of conclusions can be drawn from this table. Perhaps the most obvious is that all income groups rise and fall together. When upper-income Americans prosper, so do middle-income and lower-income Americans. Conversely, when high earners are stagnating, so are income-earners in all other categories. Critics of income inequality often state or imply that the prosperity of upper-income Americans comes at the expense of other groups. They believe that economics is a zero-sum game, so that, in George Gilder's classic formulation, wealth causes poverty. But history provides no support for that claim.
Focusing specifically on middle-income Americans (i.e., the third quintile), the table shows that the average income of the middle quintile declined in real terms from 1973 to 1975. It then increased from 1975 to 1979. There was a substantial decline from 1979 to 1982, reflecting the "stagflation" of that era.
Then, from 1982 to 1989, the economic well-being of middle-income Americans steadily increased. Average income grew every year during that period, adding up to a 12.6 percent real growth in middle-quintile family income. In 1989, middle-class family income reached its highest level in American history. While average middle-quintile incomes have fallen off since then, the data yield no support for the idea that the middle class is undergoing a historic decline in its fortunes.
Moreover, the data in the above table, which are based on family income, unfairly understate the growth of real income. Since the 1970s numerous social trends have reduced the number of adults in the average family. Some of these trends are benign; e.g., an increasing average age of marriage. But by far the most important trend reducing the size of families, and thereby depressing median and average family income, has been the high divorce rate, combined with increasing numbers of people who have children but who never marry. The impact of these trends on family income is obvious: If two married people work, and if they each earn $50,000, they have one household with a $100,000 income. If they divorce (or, for that matter, if they never marry), they are two households, each having a family income of $50,000 -- representing, in the economic statistics, a 50 percent decline, even though the total amount earned is the same.5
Thus, the fragmentation of the American family has significantly depressed statistics based on family incomes. A truer measure of economic trends, as opposed to social trends, is individual income. As Thomas Sowell and others have pointed out, real individual income -- i.e., income per person in constant dollars -- grew by about 40 percent from 1969 to 1992, far outpacing average growth in family incomes.6
The chart below shows real per capita income in constant 1992 dollars over the period 1970-1992.
Per Capita Money Income
Year Constant Dollars (1992)
1970 $10,793
1975 12,028
1980 13,275
1985 14,360
1989 15,904
1990 15,444
1992 15,033
Source: Census Bureau
These Census Bureau data show substantial and reasonably steady gains in real personal income over recent decades. Individual income figures, like the family income data reviewed above, demonstrate that far from losing ground, the American middle class has significantly improved its economic well-being since 1970.
Concern over middle-class incomes is often linked to the fear that high-paying manufacturing jobs are being lost to foreign competition, and are being replaced by low-paying or "dead end" jobs in the service sector. While it is undeniable that the American economy in recent years has created an enormous number of new jobs, news reports often deride these jobs as mere "hamburger flipping." If it were true that the modern economy were creating only or predominantly low-paying jobs, there would be legitimate grounds for concern about the future of middle-income Americans. But again the facts fail to support doomsayers' claims.
While the data are not all in on the current expansionary phase of the economy, the job creation that occurred during the expansion of the 1980s has been thoroughly analyzed. It is well known that between 1982 and 1989, the economy created more than 19 million new jobs. What is less well known is that a large majority of these jobs were in categories normally regarded as high-quality. The chart below shows job creation in the 1980s, broken down into the classifications used by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Jobs Created January 1982-December 1989
Job Category Number (Millions) Percentage Increase % 1989 Median Earnings
Managerial/Professional 7.600 33.1 $32,873
Production 2.194 19.0 25,831
Technical 6.630 21.8 20,905
Operators 1.374 8.2 19,886
Services 2.120 16.8 14,858
Farming -0.116 -3.7 13,539
Total/Average 19.892 20.3 $23,333
Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics (employment); Bureau of the Census (earnings).
Fully 89 percent of the jobs created during the expansion of the 1980s were classified by the Bureau of Labor Statistics as Managerial/Professional, Production and Technical -- the three highest-paying categories. The largest growth was in the Managerial/Professional category, and the growth in production employees almost exactly equaled the growth in service workers. Once again, the data provide a far more positive picture of middle-class prosperity than the conventional wisdom purveyed in the American press.
None of this is to suggest that economic conditions are perfect for middle-income Americans. In particular, rising tax rates have squeezed the after-tax incomes of most Americans. Middle-income Americans have indeed lost purchasing power since the historic peak of 1989, the end of the Reagan era. And the data accumulated so far seem to indicate that the current expansion is not producing the same proportion of high-paying jobs as that of the 1980s. But on balance it is simply wrong to suggest that the American middle class is shrinking or is in the throes of a long-term decline.
What about the poor?
One constant theme of the liberal critique of the economy is that the rich are getting richer while the poor are getting poorer. Superficially, Table 2 above might seem to support that thesis, since, while the fortunes of upper-income and lower-income families have risen and fallen together, the net effect of 18 years of ups and downs has been an 18 percent growth of real incomes in the highest income quintile, and a 9 percent decline for families in the bottom quintile.
This comparison, however, is badly distorted by the family breakup that has decimated poor families in the last two decades. More than any other group, low-income Americans' average family incomes have been depressed by family fragmentation.
This point is illustrated by a related set of data, covering a slightly different time period and focusing on Black Americans. Between 1967 and 1988, real income per Black household rose only 7 percent, suggesting stagnation in Black incomes. But this suggestion is misleading. Over the same time period, real income per Black person rose by 81 percent!7 The difference largely reflects the effect of family fragmentation on average family income.
Moreover, as the statistics cited above show, the fundamental reason why the bottom 20 percent of families don't make much money is that they are not working much -- as of 1991, 55 percent of those families had no member who earned any income at all. Given that the poorest segment of the population, however defined, consists of people who earn little or no money, and given that technological progress will continue indefinitely to increase both the total amount of wealth created and the amount that can be earned by the most successful and hard-working individuals, it is simply a fact of life -- or a fact of statistics -- that the "gap between rich and poor" is destined to grow. This fact in itself is not noteworthy. The real issue is whether those at or near the bottom of the economic heap still have the opportunity to move up.
Opportunity and income mobility
Conventional discussions of income distribution proceed by dividing the population into income groups -- generally quintiles -- and following the progress of those quintiles over time. This is what Table 2, for example, does. Such analysis obviously can be useful. But it also tends to be misleading, because it is hard to discuss the gains and setbacks of various income groups without implicitly assuming that the same individuals persist in those groups over time. In other words, when we say that Table 2 shows bottom-quintile families losing ground to the stagflation of the late 1970s, then making steady gains during the Reagan boom, and then losing ground again in the 1990s, it is natural to visualize a single family and to conclude that such a family wound up, when all was said and done, about where it started out. This assumption could lead to the pessimistic conclusion that America is, after all, a stratified society where the poor are doomed to remain poor, and to drop ever farther behind the growing prosperity of those at the top of the ladder.
Such a conclusion, however, would be utterly false. The fact is that America, to an extent that may be unprecedented in its or any other country's history, is a land of opportunity and upward mobility. When we follow individuals through time, as opposed to following statistically defined income groups, we find a picture of growth and opportunity.
Several recent studies have shed light on this critical issue. In 1992, the Treasury Department analyzed tax returns filed by 14,000 taxpayers for all of the years from 1979 to 1988. For each year, they determined the distribution of income among all 14,000 filers and assigned each tax filer to an income quintile for that year. They then compared the economic status of each tax filer in 1979 with the status achieved by 1988.
The results were startling. The Treasury Department study found that very few of those who started out poor (i.e., in the bottom 20 percent of income) in 1979 remained poor. On the contrary, 86 percent of those who were in the bottom quintile in that year had moved to a higher quintile by 1988. And the Treasury Department found that a person who was "poor" in 1979 was more likely to have become "rich" by 1988 than to have remained "poor." Only 14.2 percent of those in the bottom 20 percent in 1979 were still in that category in 1988, while 14.7 percent had not only improved their lot, but had moved all the way to the top income category.8
This study tells us something critically important about America's "rich" and "poor." They are, in large part, the same people at different times in their lives. "Poor" people certainly include some who are demoralized, disabled or dissolute. But to a greater extent, "poor" family units consist of students, young people who are just starting out in life, recent immigrants, and retired people. The authors of this article, and many of those who will read it, were once classified as "poor" in government statistics. This year's bottom 20 percent are not the same as last year's, or those of the year before. Over time, the vast majority of low-income people find jobs, work their way up, and spend their peak earning years in far more prosperous circumstances. They are replaced at the bottom by young people, immigrants and others who then proceed to work themselves into a higher category.
Income mobility, of course, is a two-way street. The "rich," like the "poor," are an ever-changing group. Contrary to popular conviction that the rich only get richer, the Treasury Department study found that of those taxpayers who had ranked in the top 1 percent in income in 1979, 58 percent had dropped out of that category by 1988.
Further confirmation of the remarkable degree of mobility in the American economy comes from a second study, conducted for the Urban Institute by Isabell Sawhill and Mark Condon. Sawhill and Condon followed a procedure somewhat like the Treasury Department study. They identified a group of families and recorded their incomes in 1977, arranging them into quintiles of family income for that year. Then, in 1986, they recorded the family incomes for the same people. Rather than arranging the 1986 incomes into quintiles, they calculated the average family income, as of 1986, for each of the five groups that had been identified in 1977. The results of the study are shown below.
Sawhill and Condon found that the group that experienced the largest percentage increase in income, on average, were those who started out in the bottom quintile. Those families saw their real incomes increase a remarkable 77 percent, on average, by 1986. The second-poorest group experienced the second-largest increase -- an average of 37 percent. The smallest average increase between 1977 and 1986 was that of the highest income group. Families in the top 20 percent in family income saw their average real incomes increase by only 5 percent in nine years. On the basis of these data, Sawhill and Condon characterize the period from 1977 to 1986 as an era when the poor were getting wealthier fast, and the rich were getting wealthier slowly.9
These income mobility data are of tremendous significance to the income inequality debate. They show that much of what passes for inequality between rich and poor is really inequality between generations.10 America is not a country in the process of stratifying into permanently separate and unequal camps, one rich and one poor. Rather, it is a country that offers its young people and immigrants unprecedented opportunity to achieve financial success.
If the rich person and the poor person are, in large part, the same person at different stages of life, it is reasonable to ask whether there is anything objectionable about the "inequality" that results from the fact that a mature, experienced, established worker can earn more money than one who, in the early stages of his career, lacks those advantages. It appears clear that far from being objectionable, this type of "inequality" is an inherent and desirable characteristic of an advanced society.
This point can be made by a simple illustration. Imagine two societies. The first is a primitive peasant society in which the typical employment is near-subsistence farming. The average "career path" is flat. A person can readily learn the simple skills necessary to earn his livelihood and, having learned them, his productivity and consequently his earnings will be essentially constant, until failing strength and health lead to a declining income in his later years. In such an economy, a typical earnings history might look like this:
Next imagine a more specialized, more modern economy, where technical skills, experience, a network of relationships and mature judgment are all conducive to advancement. A typical earnings history in such an economy might look like this:
In the first economy, there will be far less income inequality than in the second. Demographic factors -- the fact that experience and the qualities that go with experience can significantly increase earning power -- will make the second, more advanced economy far more unequal in its distribution of income. At any given time, experienced workers will be earning much more than less experienced workers. Yet virtually anyone would consider this a good thing. In the second society, opportunity is far greater and the typical person will attain significantly greater material well-being over his or her lifetime.
Therefore, it is not at all clear that "increasing income inequality," which is universally decried by pundits, is necessarily bad. Widely unequal earned incomes are the desirable concomitant of an advanced economy. Until left-wing critics put forth a coherent theory as to what constitutes the "right" income distribution -- a theory that must, among other things, take into account the demographic factors reviewed above -- there is no clear ground on which to attack the pattern of income distribution now prevailing in the United States.
What about the rich?
Most of the data discussed above are organized in terms of income quintiles. While this approach is imperfect for the reasons already discussed, it is a widely used and practical way of tracing the fortunes of upper-, lower- and middle-income Americans. But of course, nowhere near 20 percent of Americans can be considered "rich," and much of the publicity that has surrounded the income inequality issue has been directed at the rich, often embodied as corporate executives and professional athletes. Some readers will no doubt want to know whether the 1990s are really a golden era for the genuinely rich, as critics claim.
Since any era is a good time to be rich, this question calls for historical perspective. And in historical context, it is simply not true that top income earners today are faring unusually well. On the contrary, it appears clear that until quite recently, income was much more unequally distributed than it is today. The chart below shows the percentage of the total aggregate personal income that was earned by the top 5 percent of income earners from 1913 to 1991.
Percent of
aggregate
income
earned by
top
5 percent
of income
earners
Source: 1913-1946, Eugene Smolensky and Robert Plotnick, Inequality and Poverty in the United States: 1900 to 1990; 1947-1990, U.S. Bureau of the Census, Current Population Reports, Series P-60.
In 1913, the richest 5 percent of the population earned about 30 percent of aggregate income (excluding capital gains). That proportion stayed about the same until 1933, when it slowly began to decline. There was a more rapid decline during World War II, and by 1947 the share of the top 5 percent of income earners had fallen to 17.5 percent of total income. It then fell to about 15.5 percent, where it stayed through most of the 1960s and 1970s, and inched back up to around 17.5 percent in the 1980s, exactly where it was in 1947. Thus, by historical standards, the share of income being earned by the top income group is relatively low, and has remained essentially unchanged in recent years.
The other significant point that emerges from the above chart is that, within a context of long-term decline in the proportion of income earned by the top group, income inequality tends to widen in times of prosperity, and narrow in times of recession. Thus, short-term drops in the income share of the top 5 percent occurred in the recession years of 1949, 1957-58, 1973-74, 1980-81, and 1990.
Upon reflection, this should not be surprising. In times of prosperity, more people are earning more money, and it takes a higher income to qualify for the top 1 percent, 5 percent, or any other statistical yardstick. Nearer the bottom of the income spectrum, incomes tend to be more fixed. So it should be expected that in boom periods, income inequality may increase somewhat, while in times of recession, income inequality will tend to narrow. And, in fact, the table above shows that this is exactly what has happened throughout the post-war era. "Increasing income inequality" is a statistical construct that, in practice, is likely to be synonymous with prosperity.
Putting the statistics to one side, there is no question that at the extremes of talent, industry or luck, a person in today's economy can earn an extraordinary amount of money. Amounts earned by the most successful individuals do seem stratospheric. Why is it that Madonna earns more money than did Elvis? Why does Kirby Puckett earn more than Ted Williams did? And why does Steven Spielberg earn more than Howard Hawks did? Superior talent is probably not the answer. The modern world has created opportunities for the talented and ambitious to leverage their abilities beyond what was possible in past eras. Billions of people around the world buy compact discs, attend movies, and watch television. Worldwide communication and global markets have opened unprecedented opportunities not only in the entertainment industry, but in many other businesses as well. Those same billions of people wear jeans, eat hamburgers and drive cars. Small wonder that talented inventors, entrepreneurs and businessmen can earn a great deal of money.
The more fundamental question is, why should anyone consider it a bad thing for someone else to succeed? There is, in some quarters, a conviction amounting almost to superstition that money earned by one person must somehow be at the expense of another. But all of the economic data reviewed above refute that crude notion of how the world works. At some point, one must ask whether, at bottom, the whole contemporary campaign against inequality rests on any foundation more solid or more praiseworthy than naked greed and envy.
The role of the Congressional Budget Office in generating misleading data
The Census Bureau data reviewed above will be new, and perhaps surprising, to many readers. This is not because those data are hard to find. They aren't. Nor is there any particular doubt about their accuracy. But the facts about income distribution or, more accurately, income dispersion, as measured by the Census Bureau, have gone virtually unreported in the press. In fact, the media have imposed a near blackout on the relevant Census Bureau figures. Instead, reporters, editors and the media generally have collaborated with liberal politicians in publicizing alternative "data" that purport to show an alarming decline in the fortunes of middle-income Americans, and skyrocketing income growth in the top income group, particularly during the 1980s.
Virtually all of the "data" purporting to document these trends originated in the Congressional Budget Office. Throughout most of the 1980s and continuing until 1994, the CBO operated as an arm of the Democratic Party. One of its functions was the production of alarmist "data" to support the political agenda of the party that then controlled the CBO. The CBO carried out this function only too well.
Beginning in 1987, at the request of Democratic Sen. George Mitchell, the CBO produced "data" purporting to show two things: First, that the income of average families was actually declining; and second, that a majority of the economic gains during the Reagan boom went to the top 1 percent and other categories of high-income earners. These propositions were music to the ears of liberal politicians, who immediately began using them for partisan purposes. Bill Clinton, for one, prominently featured both of the CBO's themes in his 1992 presidential campaign.11
How could the CBO produce data so grotesquely at odds with the Census Bureau's numbers and other reliable sources of information? A full account of the statistical chicanery underlying the CBO's "data" is beyond the scope of this paper. Indeed, the full story behind the CBO's manipulation of data has never been told.12 But the following examples will serve to show how far the CBO was willing to compromise itself for the political purposes of the then-Democratic congressional majority, and how misleading its statistics are.
The CBO's data were created by mixing IRS tax return data with Census Bureau data to derive figures purportedly measuring average income levels in various percentiles of income earners, including the top 1 percent.13 The Census Bureau does not release data on the top 1 percent of income earners because it considers such data too unreliable; the CBO was therefore responsible for the creation of data regarding the top 1 percent of income earners in the context of its calculation of income growth for all income groups generally.
In order to produce an apparent decline in average middle-class family income, the CBO introduced a systematic bias into the data by redefining and reshuffling "families" from Census Bureau data. The Census Bureau keeps statistics separately for "families" and "unrelated individuals." (The Census Bureau also keeps statistics combining these two categories under the heading of "households.") Census Bureau figures show that between 1980 and 1989, real income for the middle quintile of families increased by 8.3 percent, while real income for the middle quintile of unrelated individuals increased by 16.3 percent. The CBO manipulated these Census Bureau data by combining "families" and "unrelated individuals" into the single category of "families." In other words, single persons were defined as "families" of one. Since demographic trends produced more rapid growth in the number of unrelated individuals in the 1980s, and since families on average have far higher incomes than unrelated individuals, combining these groups into a single category of "families" greatly depressed average "family" incomes. 14
Thus, the CBO claimed that even though middle-quintile families' incomes increased by 8.3 percent and middle-quintile individuals' incomes increased by 16.3 percent, the CBO's new category of middle-quintile "families" saw their incomes decline by 0.8 percent over the same period. The CBO thus performed the remarkable trick of combining two positives -- strong growth in the incomes of both families and unrelated individuals -- and getting a negative!
The CBO's data purporting to show an overwhelming share of the income growth that occurred during the 1980s as going to the top 1 percent of income earners are also the product of statistical manipulation. In addition to the CBO's artificially created "family boom," the CBO used other methods to distort the income data further and exaggerate the income growth of the top income groups. First, the CBO, unlike the Census Bureau, included capital gains along with earned income. Second, all income figures were indexed for inflation, but capital gains, which often accrue over many years, were not adjusted for inflation. This trick skewed the apparent distribution of income in the direction of taxpayers who reported capital gains. Third, the CBO included all capital gains in its figures, but further exaggerated their effect by limiting net capital losses to $3,000. Fourth, the CBO included partnership income but excluded partnership losses as well as rental losses.15 Finally, the CBO completely ignored income mobility in its analysis. These blatant methodological distortions caused Robert Bartley to describe the CBO income data as "worthless, or more bluntly a lie."16
The CBO published its "data" without fully disclosing its methods. It took two years of heroic detective work by Christopher Frenze, then a minority staff member of the Joint Economic Committee of Congress, to uncover the technical errors and deliberate distortions that underlay the CBO numbers. Frenze, who is now a senior economist on the staff of the Joint Economic Committee, published a series of papers that exposed the CBO's manipulations.17
When the CBO's methods were revealed, it was unable to defend them.18 First the CBO distanced itself from the estimates of enormous income gains by the top 1 percent. Later it abandoned its most popular and defective family income data, including measurements used to portray family incomes in a manner inconsistent with Census Bureau data.
But the CBO's express and tacit admissions that its statistics were misleading has not deterred the left from continuing to rely on its faulty data, virtually to the exclusion of other, more reliable sources of information. On the basis of CBO income data, for example, influential MIT economist Paul Krugman has asserted that the Reagan years make "a picture of simultaneous growth in wealth and poverty unprecedented in the twentieth century" and that the "growing gap between rich and poor was arguably the central fact about economic life in the 1980s."19 Astonishingly, in his book devoted to this and other related topics, Krugman saw no need to acknowledge, disclose or account for the Census Bureau data summarized above. Krugman served as a Clinton campaign adviser in 1992.
Liberal politicians have similarly based their complaints about income inequality almost exclusively on the CBO's discredited reports. Martin Sabo, currently the ranking minority member of the House Budget Committee, is just one example of a liberal politician who has relied on the CBO's discredited numbers to support explicitly statist legislative proposals.20
It is unfortunate that some politicians will seize on any purported evidence, no matter how false or misleading, that will buttress their position. But what is even more appalling is the role played by the American press. Newspapers and other media commentators have, nearly without exception, accepted the jury-rigged CBO data at face value. Even after the CBO itself backed off its calculations and abandoned the most indefensible of its practices, the old, discredited data continue to circulate without criticism in the press. To our knowledge, not a single American newspaper has undertaken a critical analysis of the CBO's data, nor, to our knowledge, has a single newspaper covered the scandal of how the CBO manipulated data, and how its manipulations were exposed by Christopher Frenze. The willingness of our press to abandon its usual attitude of critical skepticism in order to promote the personal political agendas of editors and reporters is one of the most troubling aspects of the entire income inequality debate.
Inequality of wealth
When the focus shifts from inequality of income to inequality of wealth, animus against "the rich" emerges even more clearly. While most people recognize that income must be earned, and therefore requires work, references to "wealth" conjure up images of privilege and easy money -- even though, for most of us, our "wealth" consists of our house, our car, and our pension plan.
In recent months, there has been a great deal of interest in the purportedly increasing inequality of wealth distribution, triggered largely by the publication of a book by economist Edward Wolff.21 Wolff's book, published by the liberal Twentieth Century Fund, analyzes household wealth over the period from 1983 to 1989 and concludes that, while the total amount of household wealth increased dramatically during that time, the increase was unequally distributed, with the largest percentage of the gain going to the wealthiest families. Wolff argues that this represents an acceleration of a trend that began in the late 1960s. Based on these data, he urges that the federal government adopt a tax on wealth for the purpose of redistributing it more broadly through federal spending programs.
Not surprisingly, Wolff's book has generally been received in the press with uncritical adulation. Nevertheless, although Wolff argues his case ably, it is not at all clear that the data he relies on support his conclusions.
In the first place, Wolff's exclusive concern with the distribution of wealth obscures the more fundamental fact that the period from 1983 to 1989 was a time of unparalleled creation of wealth. Wolff acknowledges that during those years, the heart of the Reagan boom, American families added $4 trillion to their total net worth, so that average net worth grew by 20 percent per family and median net worth grew by 8 percent. The period from 1983 to 1989 saw a rapid acceleration in the pace at which wealth was created; mean marketable wealth grew at almost twice the rate at which it grew from 1962 to 1983.22 In view of these incontrovertible facts, the exclusive focus of Wolff and his followers on the distribution of gains in wealth seems one-sided at best, and perverse at worst.
Moreover, Wolff's own data show that the alleged increase in wealth inequality from 1983 to 1989 was hardly unique. In fact, his data indicate that from 1973 to 1979, inequality increased more sharply than during the expansion of the 1980s.23 In other words, according to Wolff's own data, the "increasing inequality" from 1983 to 1989 represented the moderation of a previously existing trend.
The foregoing comments take Wolff's figures at face value. But in fact there is great doubt about the accuracy of Wolff's numbers. Economist John Weicher of the Hudson Institute has analyzed the same Federal Reserve survey data relied on by Wolff, but has come to substantially different conclusions.24 Like Wolff, Weicher analyzes the Federal Reserve survey data in detail and reviews the technical issues involved in defining wealth and measuring its distribution.25 The technical issues that divide Weicher's analysis from Wolff's are beyond the scope of this paper, but the following main points can be distilled from the debate.
First, Wolff defines "wealth" narrowly, and in such a way as to maximize the concentration of "wealth" at the top of the economic scale. For example, he does not include the value of automobiles in his definition of "wealth." Since most people own cars, the inclusion of their value in the definition of wealth yields a broader pattern of wealth distribution. More important, Wolff does not include either private pensions or the present value of Social Security benefits in his definition of "wealth." Wolff has acknowledged the extreme importance of this factor; by his own calculation, including the value of Social Security and pension benefits reduces the percentage of total wealth owned by the wealthiest 1 percent of all families, as of 1989, from 39 percent to 21 percent.26
Second, even using the same definitions of "wealth," Weicher's analysis of the Federal Reserve survey data reaches conclusions quite different from Wolff's. Weicher finds that wealth may or may not have become less equally distributed between 1983 and 1989, depending on how various technical questions are resolved. On some assumptions, the distribution of wealth became more equal during that time; on other assumptions, it became less equal. At most, if any increase in inequality occurred, Weicher finds that it was so slight as to be "more or less on the margin of [statistical] significance."27
Third, Weicher, unlike Wolff, gives considerable emphasis to the enormous creation of wealth during the 1980s, and the benefits that wealth creation conferred on American families. He points out that between 1983 and 1989 the net assets of the average household increased from $151,000 to $181,000.28 Average wealth grew by about 24 percent for white households and 35 percent for Black households. And, whereas in 1983 the richest 1 percent of U.S. households owned about 39 percent of the "wealth" in the country, in 1989, they owned about 36 percent.29 These figures do not include such assets as private pensions and the present value of Social Security and Medicare benefits.
Finally, Weicher, unlike Wolff, has tried to address the question of economic mobility. We have already seen that comparing income groups over time is misleading because the composition of those groups is always changing. Weicher tried to analyze whether the same is true with respect to wealth. In other words, were the top 1 percent of "rich" families in 1983, who are said to have gotten a disproportionate share of the gains in wealth between that year and 1989, in fact the same people who were in the top 1 percent in the latter year? This question could not be answered definitively because "longitudinal" data from the Federal Reserve survey have not been made public. So Weicher tried to address the issue by referring to the self-descriptions given by the 1983 and 1989 groups on such matters as asset composition. Comparing the self-descriptions of the top 1983 group to the same information for the top 1989 group, Weicher found that there were very substantial differences. He concluded that "'the richest 1 percent' don't seem to be the same people at the end of the boom as at the beginning, by and large."30
Thus, despite the media attention that has been devoted to claims of increasing inequality in the distribution of wealth -- virtually all of it uncritical -- it is far from clear that such inequality is in fact increasing.
But there are broader issues embedded in the economists' technical debates. To say that a relatively small number of families own a substantial percentage of the country's wealth is another way of saying that, for whatever reason, most people are not saving much money. And there is some truth to this claim. Economists have for years been decrying Americans' relatively low rate of savings. But why is it that so many Americans do not save, and therefore do not accumulate much wealth? Part of the answer may be sheer imprudence. But we would propose two additional explanations.
First, taxes are too high. The Tax Foundation has calculated that the average American family now spends more on taxes than on food, clothing and shelter combined. Small wonder that for most families, there isn't much left to save. If our government seriously wants to expand the number of people who are able to accumulate wealth, it should cut their taxes. To the extent that more people are able to save money rather than pay it to the government, wealth will be more broadly distributed.
It is on this point, rather than on the technical economic issues, that we part company most decisively with Wolff and the media pundits who follow his lead. Wolff's proposed solution to the "problem" of unequal distribution of wealth is -- another tax! Wolff proposes to add to the existing tax burden a new tax on wealth. This will not increase the number of Americans who can accumulate wealth; it will decrease their number. This, we suspect, is not what Americans want. The goal of economic policy should not be to prevent Americans from accumulating wealth. The goal should be to facilitate the creation and accumulation of wealth by as many people as possible. Toward this end, the best thing the government can do is reduce its spending and cut taxes.
We suspect that a second factor may also be at work, closely related to the first. A primary motive for saving has always been a desire to provide for one's old age. Until relatively recently, it was considered mandatory to save money in order to be assured of a stream of income during one's retirement years. This retirement income was needed, among other things, to pay the medical bills that are likely to be incurred as a person ages. The need for retirement income has always been a powerful incentive to save and invest.
With the advent and steady expansion of Social Security and Medicare, that calculus has changed. The perceived need to save for old age has declined drastically, and at the same time, Social Security and Medicare taxes have made saving more difficult for everyone, and nearly impossible for some.31 The result is that many people save less and thereby accumulate less "wealth" than they would in the absence of these programs. In exchange, however, they have a right to receive Social Security and Medicare benefits, which properly should be counted as part of their "wealth." As noted above, this is a factor of tremendous quantitative significance. Simply adding the value of Social Security benefits and private pensions to the definition of a household's wealth reduces the share of "wealth" owned by the top 1 percent of families by nearly one-half. If the value of Medicare benefits were included as well, the apparent concentration of assets in the top 1 percent of families would probably be cut by more than half. Conversely, privatizing these programs and allowing taxpayers to retain the income they now pay in taxes to support them would go far toward broadening, and thereby equalizing, the distribution of wealth. Whether on balance this would be desirable can of course be debated. But it hardly makes sense to raise taxes to a level which makes the accumulation of wealth by most families difficult if not impossible; then complain that most wealth is concentrated in a relatively small number of families; and finally propose to raise taxes again to "solve" the problem of unequal distribution of wealth.
Conclusion
We may reasonably ask: Why now? Why, when by historical standards both income and wealth are broadly distributed; when the distribution of income mostly reflects the distribution of work; and when economic mobility has never been greater, has income inequality assumed a central role in our public discourse? The answer, we believe, has more to do with politics than economics.
In its current form, the debate over income inequality began in the late 1980s, and arose out of the then-heated, and still-polarizing, debate about Ronald Reagan and his administration. The Reagan Administration never lacked critics, but by the late 1980s those critics faced an intractable problem: By any conventional yardstick, the American economy had performed extraordinarily well during Reagan's term in office. Gross domestic product increased by one-third, inflation was brought under control, and unemployment fell. The Reagan Administration oversaw the longest peacetime expansion in American history. The extent to which Reagan's policies deserve credit for these trends is of course a legitimate subject of debate, but sustained economic growth, declining unemployment, and a stunning victory over rampant inflation gave his critics very little to work with.
Hence income inequality. In the late 1980s, a virtual cottage industry sprang up among liberal economists and journalists. This cottage industry was the production of statistics designed to make the economic growth of the 1980s look bad. These statistics were based not on the familiar concepts of median income, unemployment and inflation, but focused rather on such previously obscure categories as income quintiles and the Gini inequality index.
The 1980s are now receding into history, but the income inequality debate rages on. It has, in fact, assumed a broader and even more significant role in our political discourse. Left-of-center critics have gone beyond using income inequality to discredit the growth of the 1980s, and with it, the Reagan Administration. Indeed, in a spirit of apparent bipartisanship, they now generally assert that the purported trend toward growing inequality has been going on for some 25 years. But this apparent bipartisanship is, in reality, nothing less than an attempt to sweep under the rug the lessons of recent economic history.
For middle-income and lower-income Americans, the last 25 years have not represented an undifferentiated upward or downward trend. On the contrary, there have been sharp ups and downs in the economic well-being of American families. The Carter era was an economic disaster. Real income of middle-quintile American families fell by 5 percent between 1979 and 1981. Conversely, the Reagan years saw a great increase in the well-being of middle-income families: a 12.6 percent gain in real income from 1982 to 1989. The years from 1990 to 1995 have been characterized by stagnation and ever-growing tax and regulatory burdens.
These basic facts of recent economic history suggest that all Americans, especially middle- and lower-income Americans, are best served by policies of sound money, low marginal tax rates, reduced government regulation and restrained growth in government spending -- the precise opposite of the policies prescribed by liberal critics of income inequality. Of course, many factors other than government policy are at work in the economy, and it is fair for economists and politicians to debate the extent to which credit or blame for economic growth or decline should be attributed to government action. But it is absurd to try to paper over the very different results that have accompanied different government policies with vague references to a "25-year trend toward increasing income inequality."
The reason for the persistence of income inequality as a political issue, notwithstanding its lack of empirical foundation, appears clear. It provides an all-purpose justification for the redistributionist impulse that is the core of contemporary liberalism. Every increase in spending on social programs, and every concomitant tax increase, can be explained and justified by the claim that the economy is tending toward ever-widening disparities in economic well-being, which in turn must be counteracted by ever-expanding government action. If government distributes more and more resources to the poor, it is only fair, since the private sector is "distributing" more and more resources to the rich.
In truth, the liberal appetite for "inequalities" to remedy has become insatiable. Redistribution of income, which was not recognized by the founders of this country as a legitimate object of government, has now become its chief purpose. The traditional functions of government have dwindled into relative insignificance. National defense now accounts for only about 17 percent of total federal spending. And an American Bar Association study concluded that the entire apparatus of the civil and criminal justice system consumes less than 3 percent of public spending. These traditional functions of government are dwarfed by its principal contemporary purpose: Taking money from one person in the form of taxes and giving it to someone else. To sustain this vast structure of redistribution, liberals must always claim, with increasing hysteria, that inequality is growing and "income gaps" are expanding. If the public were ever to realize fully the hollowness of these claims, the entire redistributionist enterprise would collapse.
The "equality" espoused by the critics of income inequality is equality of outcome or of result. This notion of equality appropriates the language of America's founders, but it nevertheless strikes at the heart of the founders' understanding of equality, which was based on equality of rights. For the founders understood that equality of outcome is impossible and undesirable, given the different abilities with which each person is born. Thus James Madison wrote in the most celebrated of the Federalist papers that the "first object of government" is protecting the "different and unequal faculties of acquiring property" which necessarily results in the "possession of different degrees and kinds of property," or inequality of outcome.32 The liberal critics of income inequality have an argument not just with the facts or with their current political adversaries, but with the authors of the American Constitution itself.
I refuse to believe that Thomas Sowell, a smart man, does not understand the distinction between the accumulation of extraneous wealth and support for tax funded social programs.
I refuse to believe that Thomas Sowell, a smart man, does not understand the distinction between the accumulation of extraneous wealth and support for tax funded social programs.
Is that the same Thomas Sowell who Godwined Obama's response to the BP oil spill?
You're still dismissive... take that chart, and compare it to the fact that 47% of the lower income scale do NOT pay any excess Federal Taxes (in many case, they'll get a return!).
So... on the one hand, the top 10% pays the vast majority of the taxes...
On the other, the lower 47% don't owe any federal taxes.
Wrap you head around that.
47% don't owe taxes because they don't earn enough to pay them.
So by this graph the top 1% own 42% of the wealth, they should also pay at least 42% of the taxes. However when you look at the amount of services and befits the rich actually get from the government, you may decide they should pay more. Poor people don't really benefit much from the government, but the rich do. The government protects their wealth and fights wars for it, the government builds infrastructure that is vastly more beneficial to rich people than it is to poor people.
The issue I find is what is the definition of rich. I find it very interesting how the tea party has gotten the lower middle class to fight for the rich, by convincing the lower middle class that they are rich. I mean seriously, why are people who earn $60k a year fighting to keep millionaires rich?
Frazzled wrote: To play devil's advocate:
Define contribute. If they give 10% to charity they are contributing by provide funds for charitable relief. If they are spending 10% on hot babes and cool cars (or the inverse) they are dropping 10% into the economy and thus contributing to society.
First up, it's kind of awesome that you're making an argument based on Keynes
However, Keynes was talking about a really specific economic situation that doesn't hold at all times. While you're right that money spent drives economic production, any specific instance only has a real impact when the economy lacks sufficient demand (ie is in depression). You happen to be in that state right now, but it isn't very common at all, for maybe 95% of the time an economy will be at full employment. In full employment (which means an economy where any further increase in employment must drive up inflation), then pretty much anyone who isn't hardcore unemployed or moving between jobs will be working - if they weren't providing super cars for the rich, they'd be building Camrys for the middle class or something else. If a rich person comes in with piles of money, you don't get more economic activity, you just get an overall rise in prices and a re-allocation of production away from middle class production and towards whatever stuff that rich person wants.
Which, basically, should be pretty intuitively clear. When the rich have most of the money then most of the economy goes towards servicing their needs. When income is reasonably equitably spread, then the productivity is focused on providing for everyone.
Except rich people aren't making those cars, serving $30 martinis, or raising $100 cuts of veal.
Money spent on rich toys quickly makes its way to lower income brackets.
And there aren't enough rich people to make the whole economy tilt towards their needs enough to where the needs of lower classes are not met. There is only so much room for competition making luxury goods, but there is plenty of room to sell stuff to the plebs.
whembly wrote: Disclaimer: I do believe we need to update the tax code, but not for "redistribution of weath" reason... more, to even the playing field. (or, at least, fething reclassify what "income" truly is).
Yep, the top marginal rate could be higher, but most of the problems with your tax code are structural (weirdly treating different forms of income with different rates of tax, and then just letting capital gains through at stupidly low rates of taxation).
But even then, the issue isn't just with tax, the system itself is changing to pay people far more at the top than are paid down the chain. The reason your graph shows more and more of the tax burden being paid by the top 10% is that the top 10% is earning more and more of the total income. Exactly why that is happening is the trillion dollar question, and exactly if and it might be reversed is worth at least another trillion.
I wonder why it is that we need to pull the poor up by tearing down the rich. It seems like an aack-bassward approach to the problem.
Its like someone needing a Kidney and people deciding to fix the problem by just taking one from someone who has 2 perfectly good ones without asking. After all, nobody needs 2 Kidneys. You only need one.
Rich people don't need all that money so we can just take it because we can.
streamdragon wrote: Basically, previously the rich could hide their dickish ways for more easily than they can now that information reaches the world in just a few seconds.
On the flip side of the coin, the generosity of the rich is more easily exposed through acts from buying $280,000 worth of toys for poor children, to fighting infectous diseases all over the globe.
I don't think any individual anecdote about drunk driving or giving money to a children's charity drives any of the real sentiment. At least, I really hope it doesn't.
I think the real, underlying cause is that people are realising for the first time in their lifes there's no reasonable expectation that their children will be meaningfully better off than they were. This isn't because the US isn't a materially richer country year on year, decade on decade, but because more and more of the income is being centred on the top 1%, and within that the top 0.1%.
Lets put it this way (pure example). When someone spends $5,000,000 on a five star caterer for their high end country club servicing the richest and most elite men and women in the Tri-State area, yeah some poorer people are gonna get paid, but how many people does it take to service that small group? A fairly small number. The profits in turn stay in the hands of the probably very well off caterer who gets these gigs over and over and is only slightly less rich than the people they are catering for.
Most of the money spent on that catering has not moved to the lower end of the totem pole. Most of it just moved to a different set of hands on the same pole.
The money spent on the highest end luxury items stays mostly stays in the upper stratum of society. The rich give it to other rich people. This isn't a claim of conspiracy its just a explanation that someone who is very wealthy isn't really participating in trickle down economics that much when they buy ultra expensive services targeted at them. The money they spend mostly goes to another person of similar social standing, and only a fraction works its way down.
Money spent on rich toys in fact does not quickly go to lower income brackets, it mostly stays in the bracket it started in which is part of how the rich keep getting richer. Once money finds its way up to them, it tends to stay there as a natural state of affairs. It doesn't just magically work its way back down..
That caterer in turn will spend the money taking his family out to eat, pay the salaries of his employees, and purchase more food. That money is spent on more salaries, products, etc...
It definitely does not all stay in the high circles just making rounds between rich people's hands. Its called the money multiplier effect.
Even money sitting in a bank isn't actually sitting there. Its being lent out to people. Its how banks make money. That money has to eventually make its way to the lower classes or the entire economy would grind to a complete stop, but that isn't what happens.
"Enough" is subjective. Some people could live very comfortably on 100K a year and want for nothing ever.
Other people would feel impoverished, in a first world problems sort of way, and try to make more.
The issue is that CEOs are making vastly more than their average worker is today, and way more than they used to, while the average worker's salary hasn't really grown at all. Wages rose by about the same percentage between 1947 and 1979, and then from 1979 onwards income growth for those outside of the top quintile has been minimal, and even the average for the top 20% is meager when compared to just the top 1% or 0.1%.
So while putting a hard number on what is "enough" is hard, I think the vast majority of people would agree that the trend is moving in the wrong direction.
How to reverse that trend is tough to determine, but first we need to commit to fixing the trend in the first place, and not have guys like in the OP around the debate.
Seaward wrote: I could be wrong, but I don't think self-sustaining perpetual motion echo chambers like
You're wrong. I attended more than enough university student political clubs... there has never been a shortage of echo chambers for people who want to go and listen to their narrow views repeated back to them.
So you'd say I don't earn my money?
I'd say the word 'earn' is being applied to a subject where it makes no sense.
The economy doesn't pay according to what a person 'earns'. At best, the economy simply pays the rate of pay that is most efficient given the relative scarcity of that person's skillset. This means that in a year in which mining is booming, a geologist might be paid double or triple what he can command when mining is in decline... is this because he is inherently more productive in good years and therefore 'earning' more, or is it because the system around him has changed, making his skills relatively more scarce and therefore leaving him able to command more money?
This is the point, by using 'earn' people are inventing a fiction where their income is entirely based on their own personal attributes, as if the surrounding economic system mattered not at all, and they could earn the same living in Somalia that they earn in the US or another developed country.
That is adjusted for inflation, so people in the bottom 80% aren't losing money. Rich people are just having more money, that isn't a problem by itself. But people try to claim it is.
Grey Templar wrote: That caterer in turn will spend the money taking his family out to eat, pay the salaries of his employees, and purchase more food. That money is spent on more salaries, products, etc...
It definitely does not all stay in the high circles just making rounds between rich people's hands. Its called the money multiplier effect.
Even money sitting in a bank isn't actually sitting there. Its being lent out to people. Its how banks make money. That money has to eventually make its way to the lower classes or the entire economy would grind to a complete stop, but that isn't what happens.
The money eventually moves downward but it does so incredibly slowly and inefficiently.
Studies showed that the Bush tax cuts for the top 1% put about $0.30 back into the economy for every $1. Food stamps, tax cuts for the poor, and other programs that assist the less fortunate tended to put over $1 back into the economy per $1 spent.
So for the rich guy earning 3M per year, he'll probably put about 1M back into the economy, which is a ton of money, but if you looked at how much money 60 people earning $50,000 a year put back into the economy, odds are it's near their total earnings. Anything not put back into the economy almost certainly goes into college funds or retirement funds which will eventually get spent and put back into the economy.
So basically, sure, the money of the rich eventually trickles down, it's just ridiculously inefficient and slow compared to the middle class.
Grey Templar wrote: That caterer in turn will spend the money taking his family out to eat, pay the salaries of his employees, and purchase more food. That money is spent on more salaries, products, etc...
High end luxury products tend to have the best profit margin. You really think there's that much of a difference between the beef used in a five star restaurant and Ruby Tuesday (there isn't). It probably costs a few dollars more to make that $50 steak as it takes Ruby Tuesday to make a $15 one.
Even money sitting in a bank isn't actually sitting there. Its being lent out to people.
Loaned money doesn't belong to the person its loaned to. Hence, loaned. Being in debt is a result of not having the money to pay for something which for most people will always be a natural state of affairs on various items (houses/cars) but it's not like putting money in a bank gives it to everyone else.
That money has to eventually make its way to the lower classes or the entire economy would grind to a complete stop, but that isn't what happens.
Yeah, I just said people get paid. Now explain why Bill Gates has $80 billion while most of his employees are mostly making between 30k and 50k a year. Microsoft employs over 100k people who aren't executives, so you can probably translate that in total they are all paid probably in the realm of 4-8 billion dollars, meaning Bill Gates has as much as 10 times more money as everyone his company employs combined. EDIT: And most of his employes probably owe a lot of money too, because loans work that way.
I give props to Gates cause he gives a gak ton to charity, but not everyone is Bill Gates rich or Bill Gates charitable, but lets stop this delusion when just by filling his daily food and utility expenses, Gates is going to give anywhere near as much to other people as he makes.
People still think that trickle down economics works and that one person making $$$ spends the same amount of money as 10 people that together are making $$$?
It does work, just not to the extant people used to think. But work it does.
You can't have it be the entire plan but you must consider its effect. The rich are not just bleeding the economy dry like liberals would like everybody to believe. And taxing huge chunks of their income isn't going to solve anything.
whembly wrote: You're still dismissive... take that chart, and compare it to the fact that 47% of the lower income scale do NOT pay any excess Federal Taxes (in many case, they'll get a return!).
So... on the one hand, the top 10% pays the vast majority of the taxes...
On the other, the lower 47% don't owe any federal taxes.
Wrap you head around that.
Yeah, but wrap your head around this;
You work for a company, you and 19 other people. You each earn $100, it isn't great, especially after you're taxed $10, but it's a reasonably living.
Then this jerk called sebster gets hired as a manager, and he reforms the company. What he does is put himself in as a manager earning $400, while cutting the pay of you and the other 19 employees to $60 each, and nets the company an additional $400 in profit.
That sucks a bit, but then when you're all talking about you're on less income than you used to be, that jerk sebster buts in and says 'don't whinge, I pay $100 in taxes, you guys on $60 don't pay tax at all.'
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DogofWar1 wrote: Personally, I'm for transferring our tax system to a much more incentive based system as you reach certain wealth thresholds (with a more gradual increase than a sudden jump which makes earning that $1 over the previous tax level unappetizing).
Note the difference between income and wealth - wealth is what you own (your house, the value of your company etc), income is how much you earn in a year.
And there is no sudden jump in taxes for earning $1 over the last tax bracket. The system is marginal, you hit a new bracket and that next dollar gets taxed at the new rate but not your income below that bracket.
Capital Gains should be folded into regular income, and not taxed at the lower rate.
Yes, definitely.
For corporate taxes, a similar sliding increase based on company value makes sense
It doesn't really work, because you can just slice a company up in to little pieces to avoid the higher rates. Lets say I own a business, and I note that my company is about to exceed the threshhold set by your tax scheme, say a million dollars. All I would do then is set up a second company and have it buy half of my business... I might differentiate two different product lines and have each 'company' sell one each, or the distinction might be entirely artificial - I place the business in a property trust and have each company own a 50% stake in the property trust.
And ultimately, the only thing that makes sense with company tax is to charge a nominal amount, and then build real taxes around the dividend stream as it is paid out to investors.
Drop bears run most of the drug operations in Australia now. They cook meth up in their nests, high in the ecuaplytus trees. Most of the victims of drop bear attacks are actually rival pushers, straying in to drop bear territory.
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whembly wrote: I think that Chart needs to go with that TPM post KK posted Seb.
TPM? The Phantom Menace?
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whembly wrote: 'Mine' and 'yours' is an important part for clear demarcation of what you've earned. It's property rights.
Yeah, I said that " 'Mine' and 'yours' are important parts of any economic system"... but then note how I then said "but so is equality"...
So, the whole "income inequality" is nothing more than political punchline.
Nonsense. Income equality matters just as property rights property rights matter. They are both fundamental and ignoring either produces an economic system that is sub-optimal, and likely unsustainable.
Personal wealth and consumptions should have no bearing in determining, 'he has enough'.
It isn't about picking some guy and saying 'that guy has enough money, let's take some of it'. It's about recognising that the economy is not in any way a fair allocator of resources based that fair mindedly sets you pay according to some concept of hard work and talent to properly determine what you earn. The market economy is an efficient and reasonably effective allocator of resources, but it's pricing in no way reflects what a person actually contributes to the economy. For instance, a study in The Economist (I believe it was The Economist) established that teachers increase the overall economy by about five or ten times what a merchant banker does, but guess which one gets paid ten times what the other earns?
Bad article. It's well known that the census bureau understates income at the highest levels, because it doesn't ask for actual income but just a category (which in an exponential chart produces a flat top end). The best figures are drawn from tax returns, and there we can see an incredible growth in the incomes of the top 1%, and small increases elsewhere, and even flat or declining incomes down the bottom.
Some element of household income differential is due to how many people in the household work, but to pretend that's the primary driver of the inequality we see is just plain weird. We know that incomes, measured per person not per household, have increased ten times over at the top 1%, and quite highly in the top 10%, and less and less per bracket until we reach the bottom, where they've increased little or not at all in 40 years.
The claim about high income growth during the Reagan era misses the boat entirely - yes, during periods of high growth everyone's income increases... but unless someone has a magic machine of pretend economics that will set the economy in to permanent high growth, then it's fething useless as a means to raise lower class incomes long term.
The mention of social mobility is total nonsense, as all he does is simply mention that it exists. Yes, there is movement, but it's nowhere near the movement seen in other developed countries, and in the US is actually getting worse year on year.
Given the amount of rubbish in just the foreward, I didn't go on much, except to notice that, as these right wing defences always do, the stats dragged up looked only at the top 20% as a whole... when the issue isn't with IT managers or doctors, but with the top 1% (and within that the top 0.1%) who's incomes have grown massively. Having figures that only went to 1991 is a novelty, though
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Grey Templar wrote: Except rich people aren't making those cars, serving $30 martinis, or raising $100 cuts of veal.
It could be orphan boys straight from Burkina Faso, or it could be Paris Hilton attaching the muffler to your sports car, it doesn't fething matter. The idea that if you spend money you create jobs and therefore all money spent is justifiable is magical, foolish thinking. It works in one specific circumstance, when you are in depression. The rest of the time the economy self-regulates to maintain full employment, meaning that if you spend money to have people build you a sports car, that is simply shifting productive labour away from some other purpose, such as building Camrys for middle class families.
But, once again, it is fething hilarious to hear people who were opposed to stimulus spending when it actually made sense (during a depression) aping it's basic model to justify rich people spending money in any other circumstance.
Money spent on rich toys quickly makes its way to lower income brackets.
That's what everyone theorised in the 80s. Three decades later and we see what it actually produced was wildly increasing incomes at the top, and flat income growth at the bottom. It was a bad theory... and hey no harm in trying but now we know it doesn't work, and the sane approach is to stop using bad theories.
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Grey Templar wrote: I wonder why it is that we need to pull the poor up by tearing down the rich. It seems like an aack-bassward approach to the problem.
It isn't about tearing the rich down. Nothing to do with anything.
And ass backwards is worrying first and foremost about the people with immense material wealth, and the people with little wealth as an after thought. So instead the only sane thing is to realise that there are just two basic questions that matter - "How do we make sure everyone gets a reasonable share?" and "How do we make sure we not only maintain our current economy, but increase it each it year?"
The first is answered through basic equality policies, those measures available to flatten the income distribution (minimum wage, progressive taxation etc). The latter is answered by making sure the former does not go too far (that minimum wage isn't set so high that people don't bother training for skilled jobs, that progressive taxes aren't so high they discourage people pursuing higher incomes).
Rich people don't need all that money so we can just take it because we can.
Rich people enter the game just the same as the rest of us. They don't like the rules we set up, then they can make an argument to change them and see if they can win people over, or they can head off to a deserted island and see if they can earn as much tax free over there as they do here as part of this system. But what they can't do is agree to be part of the system we have and use all the parts that benefit them (property rules, contract laws, education producing a wide number of educated producted workers etc) and then bitch and moan about the one part of the system that reduces their income.
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Grey Templar wrote: That is adjusted for inflation, so people in the bottom 80% aren't losing money. Rich people are just having more money, that isn't a problem by itself. But people try to claim it is.
Seriously? You don't think that 80% of the population missing out entirely on the economic progress of the last three decades is something people should worry about. Holy fething gak. That is incredible.
You've hit it on the head. The obesity epidemic has made me consider the prospect of the 99% or the 46% or whatever the hell percent we're talking about storming anything to be pretty remote.
d-usa wrote: People still think that trickle down economics works and that one person making $$$ spends the same amount of money as 10 people that together are making $$$?
What truly boggles my mind is that the people who honestly believe in that concept tend to be the people most likely to be injured by that belief.
Grey Templar wrote: It does work, just not to the extant people used to think. But work it does.
No, it doesn't Trickle-down economics is predicated on the notion that reducing the tax burden on the wealthy will translate into significant economic gains for everyone within the United States, something which has clearly not occurred.
Arguing that it does not work "...to the extant people used to think." is arguing that it does not work.
I have an acquaintance who makes sufficient income that he has an apartment on Broadway, overlooking Riverside park and Grant's tomb. He has another one in London. and another in Frankfurt. I've seen his spending habits. His million a year do not trickle far. He drives a normal car. He drinks Hennesy. He does not eat cavier, though I will say his collection of Civil War antiques is small but top notch (having helped him assemble it). He did spend some money recently marrying the head of one of his European fan clubs.
But the truth is that most of his money is stored in off shore accounts. Meaning his money leaves the US and does not contribute in any meaningful way to the US economy,.
whembly wrote: You're still dismissive... take that chart, and compare it to the fact that 47% of the lower income scale do NOT pay any excess Federal Taxes (in many case, they'll get a return!).
So... on the one hand, the top 10% pays the vast majority of the taxes...
On the other, the lower 47% don't owe any federal taxes.
Wrap you head around that.
Yeah, but wrap your head around this;
You work for a company, you and 19 other people. You each earn $100, it isn't great, especially after you're taxed $10, but it's a reasonably living.
Then this jerk called sebster gets hired as a manager, and he reforms the company. What he does is put himself in as a manager earning $400, while cutting the pay of you and the other 19 employees to $60 each, and nets the company an additional $400 in profit.
That sucks a bit, but then when you're all talking about you're on less income than you used to be, that jerk sebster buts in and says 'don't whinge, I pay $100 in taxes, you guys on $60 don't pay tax at all.'
Classic straw man Seb... but, I'll play along.
That's the argument why people are so riled up against the high salaries that CEOs gets.
I'd argue that you're looking at it the wrong way.
CEO, or that manager in your example, are paid that much because of what other people are willing to pay them.
What's funny here is that most of the highest paid CEO are companies owned by a few giant investment firms, as opposed to corporations owned by thousands of individual stockholders.
These investment firms are spending their own money and have financial expertise to bid for their desired CEOs.
No one is forcing these folks to pay the CEOs these exorbitant compensation rates.
Seaward wrote: It's probably something people in that 80% should worry about.
The 80% do. And it's more than just the bottom 80%, even people in the bottom 90% and a little higher aren't seeing their wages increase, and are missing out in the economic growth of the country compared to the top 1%.
The problem is that money talks, and tends to win arguments. We have very lax laws in terms of campaign financing in this country, in that anyone with a wad to blow can spend as much as they please tearing somebody down. They can donate more to campaigns as well, and to parties, etc. etc. The political system in this country runs on money, which the top 1% have more of, and in turn they use it to maintain the status quo of a system that insulates them. If anyone tries to run a counter informational campaign, they get drowned out money-wise, and if they try to change campaign finance laws, they throw money at politicians until the proposal dies.
Many in the bottom 80% don't have the time or resources to investigate how messed up income inequality is in this country, so they turn to the TV, talking heads, and (despite their mistrust of them) politicians (especially the local ones they voted for, because by voting for them they biased themselves for them, even if that congressman spends all of his time fighting to protect tax cuts and loopholes for the 1%), and take that word in place of their own investigation. Poll the general population among the bottom 80%, and I'd be impressed if even half knew even the general trend of the growth rate of wages for the bottom 20%, middle 60%, and top 1% over the past 30 years.
Sebster's argument was not a straw man. He was not misrepresenting any point you made, nor did he move the argument away from it. Indeed, he addressed it directly.
You, on the other hand, appear to be trying very hard to save face.
Not to mention that over the years its become increasingly evident that many CEO's earning big bucks, aren't that uniquely skilled compred to other people. They get replaced in a meager four or five years because they aren't that good at what they do, and still get paid more in severance than most of us earn in a life time. They're essntially paid for a position they spend little time in and that has a vast pool of available candidates capable of fulfilling the roll. While this would drive down pay in other fields of work the pay of CEO's pay just keeps going up which is the opposite of what is supposed to happen in a free market. EDIT: Many of them make so much money after a decade of CEOing they can effectively retire and never worry about money again which they do.
The problem IMO is that it's not a free market. Too high a barrier to entry. CEO's of major companies essentially run a closed shop, where the requirement for MBA's and experience running equivalent companies ensure that entrance to this market is very difficult. One of the reasons we see female CEOs not coming forward at the same rate as women in the rest of the workforce. The problem with braking the closed shop is you can't just set up another industry and say "We are doing it our way" as you can't go and set up another global stock exchange.
I don't disagree but my whole point is that our current system is not working the way a lot of people would like the think it does.
To draw a parallel, in the South many non-slave owners were invested in the idea of slavery as the goal of a successful life. A successful man who worked hard could buy his own slaves and then relax for the rest of his life and his children and their children would be set. This belief completely ignored that the price of slaves from 1820 onwards became exponentially more expensive, to the point where it was ludicrously unlikely the typuical southerner could ever own any slaves let alone enough to live a live of leisure and secure the same for their children.
The same thing is happening today. People are invested in the idea that some day they will achieve a degree of wealth that allows them sit back and relax and secure similar or better for their children. The dream of wealth invests people in the current system even though they're highly unlikely to benefit from it. For every self made millionaire who popped up as a result of the recession, thousands of Americans fell down the totem poll and their prospects for improvement becomes increasingly unlikely as the costs for necessary credentials like a college education becomes higher and higher. Today it takes almost as much luck as hard work to achieve the 'American dream', and increasingly people who are already well off are the ones actually making that happen while everyone below mostly stays at about the same level they started at as children.
EDIT: To give an example, the statistics for my graduating year (2007) are increasingly alarming. Many of the college graduates who came into the workforce in the same time as me are unable to secure work on par with what their parents were able to gain and still are six years later unable to be in parity with there college graduates in the 1970's and 80's were.
It's a lefty site, but that's a great article in describing this discourse.
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whembly wrote: 'Mine' and 'yours' is an important part for clear demarcation of what you've earned. It's property rights.
Yeah, I said that " 'Mine' and 'yours' are important parts of any economic system"... but then note how I then said "but so is equality"...
What do you really mean by "equality".
Is it, "equal chance to succeed"?
or...
Is it, "better wealth distribution"?
So, the whole "income inequality" is nothing more than political punchline.
Nonsense. Income equality matters just as property rights property rights matter. They are both fundamental and ignoring either produces an economic system that is sub-optimal, and likely unsustainable.
You see... this is why I asked you what you meant by "income equality" and MORE specifically, what would you be in favor of to address it?
Income equality, a term being used by today's liberals, is utopia. It's a catchy word to drive the argument that the rich is too rich.
Now, don't get me wrong... I think the system is TOTALLY and COMPLETELY rigged in favor of the wealthy. I'm all in favor of leveling the "playing field". But that doesn't simply mean, hey, let's jack up the top 10% taxes to 70%, and LEAVE everything else alone.
The. Whole. fething. System. Needs. A. Overhaul.
Personal wealth and consumptions should have no bearing in determining, 'he has enough'.
It isn't about picking some guy and saying 'that guy has enough money, let's take some of it'.
No Seb... that's exactly what this is... Obama perfectly encapsulate this mentality with his unscripted encounter with "Joe the Plumber" when he said:
... if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody’s so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.
This mentality is... the wealthy (however that's defined) is not contributing their fair share.
It's about recognising that the economy is not in any way a fair allocator of resources based that fair mindedly sets you pay according to some concept of hard work and talent to properly determine what you earn.
Um... isn't that life? Aren't you arguing for "The Perfect System"? I vaguely remember you posting a great article on this topic way back when...
Must be Utopia.
The market economy is an efficient and reasonably effective allocator of resources, but it's pricing in no way reflects what a person actually contributes to the economy. For instance, a study in The Economist (I believe it was The Economist) established that teachers increase the overall economy by about five or ten times what a merchant banker does, but guess which one gets paid ten times what the other earns?
Right...
There's so many things that determines/distort the price of someone's skill set. Crony capitalism is one of the worst offenders.
Bad article. It's well known that the census bureau understates income at the highest levels, because it doesn't ask for actual income but just a category (which in an exponential chart produces a flat top end). The best figures are drawn from tax returns, and there we can see an incredible growth in the incomes of the top 1%, and small increases elsewhere, and even flat or declining incomes down the bottom.
Huh? Can you elaborate on this? "it doesn't ask for actual income but just a category". o.O My synapes are misfiring here...
Some element of household income differential is due to how many people in the household work, but to pretend that's the primary driver of the inequality we see is just plain weird.
Why? It makes perfect sense to me...
We know that incomes, measured per person not per household, have increased ten times over at the top 1%, and quite highly in the top 10%, and less and less per bracket until we reach the bottom, where they've increased little or not at all in 40 years.
Why are you surprised about this? What's that old adage about having more money? Something like, the more you have, it becomes a force multiplier... (I know I butchered that horribly).
The claim about high income growth during the Reagan era misses the boat entirely - yes, during periods of high growth everyone's income increases... but unless someone has a magic machine of pretend economics that will set the economy in to permanent high growth, then it's fething useless as a means to raise lower class incomes long term.
I disagree... but, remember, the Reagan era didn't just cut taxes (as most righties keep preaching)... but, he increase government spending (military, infrastractures, oil leases, etc...). Without the increased government spending to spur the economic engine, simply cutting taxes then wouldn't have done jack squat.
The mention of social mobility is total nonsense, as all he does is simply mention that it exists. Yes, there is movement, but it's nowhere near the movement seen in other developed countries, and in the US is actually getting worse year on year.
...Yet the parts of this country with the highest mobility rates — like Pittsburgh, Seattle and Salt Lake City — have rates roughly as high as those in Denmark and Norway, two countries at the top of the international mobility rankings. In areas like Atlanta and Memphis, by comparison, upward mobility appears to be substantially lower than in any other rich country, Mr. Chetty said.
Social mobility is fine, but I believe we can do better and I've advocated that attention need to be focused on early education.
Given the amount of rubbish in just the foreward, I didn't go on much, except to notice that, as these right wing defences always do, the stats dragged up looked only at the top 20% as a whole... when the issue isn't with IT managers or doctors, but with the top 1% (and within that the top 0.1%) who's incomes have grown massively.
Here we go again... because... wait for it... WAIT FOR IT...
Its. Not. Fair!
Having figures that only went to 1991 is a novelty, though
I thought it was perfectly germane to the conversation.
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Grey Templar wrote: Except rich people aren't making those cars, serving $30 martinis, or raising $100 cuts of veal.
It could be orphan boys straight from Burkina Faso, or it could be Paris Hilton attaching the muffler to your sports car, it doesn't fething matter. The idea that if you spend money you create jobs and therefore all money spent is justifiable is magical, foolish thinking. It works in one specific circumstance, when you are in depression. The rest of the time the economy self-regulates to maintain full employment, meaning that if you spend money to have people build you a sports car, that is simply shifting productive labour away from some other purpose, such as building Camrys for middle class families.
But, once again, it is fething hilarious to hear people who were opposed to stimulus spending when it actually made sense (during a depression) aping it's basic model to justify rich people spending money in any other circumstance.
How that Stimulus spending was the issue.
Again, we should've cut taxes (especially in those small businesses category) in conjunction to any stimulus package.
Money spent on rich toys quickly makes its way to lower income brackets.
That's what everyone theorised in the 80s. Three decades later and we see what it actually produced was wildly increasing incomes at the top, and flat income growth at the bottom. It was a bad theory... and hey no harm in trying but now we know it doesn't work, and the sane approach is to stop using bad theories.
Trickle down doesn't work?
I'd say it works, but not to the extent that everyone claiming it to be... it ain't the end-all-be-all solution.
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Grey Templar wrote: I wonder why it is that we need to pull the poor up by tearing down the rich. It seems like an aack-bassward approach to the problem.
It isn't about tearing the rich down. Nothing to do with anything.
And ass backwards is worrying first and foremost about the people with immense material wealth, and the people with little wealth as an after thought. So instead the only sane thing is to realise that there are just two basic questions that matter - "How do we make sure everyone gets a reasonable share?"
What do you mean by "reasonable share"? More wealth redistribution?
and "How do we make sure we not only maintain our current economy, but increase it each it year?"
With a combination of free-market and sane government regulation policies.
The first is answered through basic equality policies, those measures available to flatten the income distribution (minimum wage, progressive taxation etc). The latter is answered by making sure the former does not go too far (that minimum wage isn't set so high that people don't bother training for skilled jobs, that progressive taxes aren't so high they discourage people pursuing higher incomes).
Ah... you've answered my question.
Great response... but the questions will be "by how much".
Rich people don't need all that money so we can just take it because we can.
Rich people enter the game just the same as the rest of us. They don't like the rules we set up, then they can make an argument to change them and see if they can win people over, or they can head off to a deserted island and see if they can earn as much tax free over there as they do here as part of this system.
They're free to do that... but, in the long run, that isn't good for the US. I'd advocate that we should somehow encourage the wealthy to NOT move their money offshores. It's seems that we're in a cycle that as taxes increases for them, they're more likely to move their wealth offshores and the US loses the opportunity to have that money reinvested back into the economy.
But what they can't do is agree to be part of the system we have and use all the parts that benefit them (property rules, contract laws, education producing a wide number of educated producted workers etc) and then bitch and moan about the one part of the system that reduces their income.
Right... but, I don't get the sense that they're really complaining. I mean, it's been goodfor the super wealthy... right?
So... instead of simply taxing the super rich even more to address income inequality, I'd advocate for the following:
A) simply the fething tax code. No "government sponsored winners/loser scenarios".
B) encourage expatriated $$$ back into US for reinvestment opportunity... some how.
C) invest and especially empower local education entities (reduce HS drop outs, move away from "teaching to pass test", etc...).
D) make higher education and trade skills accessible (don't just offer subsidies, the university tuitions is getting ridiculous).
Alexzandvar wrote: It has to be addressed that income disparity DOES need to be addressed by the government unless we want to make whats currently happening in the Ukraine a reality here.
Its not a matter of if people will riot if it gets any worse, its when people will riot for how bad it already is.
We absolutely must NOT let the government tell us how much we can make. That's just lunacy. "Wealth inequality" is not a bad thing. Unfairness in life is not a bad thing. These are what motivate people. If and when these things become such a hinderance to life that people can't bear them anymore, then the people will correct the imbalance. But letting the government tell me how much I can earn is simply wrong.
Sebster's argument was not a straw man. He was not misrepresenting any point you made, nor did he move the argument away from it. Indeed, he addressed it directly.
You, on the other hand, appear to be trying very hard to save face.
Speak for yourself dude. Seb and I are debating from different viewpoints.
I'm not trying to save face... I'm handsome already.
No one is forcing these folks to pay the CEOs these exorbitant compensation rates.
An argument which dovetails nicely into LordofHats point regarding the accumulation of wealth by the already wealthy.
And so what?
Because it's not fair?
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LordofHats wrote: Not to mention that over the years its become increasingly evident that many CEO's earning big bucks, aren't that uniquely skilled compred to other people. They get replaced in a meager four or five years because they aren't that good at what they do, and still get paid more in severance than most of us earn in a life time. They're essntially paid for a position they spend little time in and that has a vast pool of available candidates capable of fulfilling the roll. While this would drive down pay in other fields of work the pay of CEO's pay just keeps going up which is the opposite of what is supposed to happen in a free market. EDIT: Many of them make so much money after a decade of CEOing they can effectively retire and never worry about money again which they do.
Do you have any documentation/sources to back up your claim that CEOs are that uniquely skilled compared to other people?
Lordhat wrote: If and when these things become such a hinderance to life that people can't bear them anymore, then the people will correct the imbalance.
Perhaps by voting for sympathetic political representatives, who may then enact certain laws under the pressure of lobbying.
Oh, and that whole "civil society" (people arguing with each other outside an official capacity) thing might play a role as well.
No, because it indicates that the wealthy are just as likely to compensate their peers in an undeserving manner as any other person; perhaps more so. Oh, and that their undue compensation has a negative effect which is far in excess of the same behavior by people lower on the socioeconomic ladder.
Do you have any documentation/sources to back up your claim that CEOs are that uniquely skilled compared to other people?
Check out Forbes or just use Google (literally this took me less than a minute to find) and you'll find plenty of articles about the problems with corporate culture. EDIT: Even more go use JSTOR. It's free.
Seriously, if I wanted to spoon feed information to people I'd go be a teacher and actually get paid for the task. Anyone who cares abotu economics should know this by now it's been an issue widely discussed for 20 years.
Do you have any documentation/sources to back up your claim that CEOs are that uniquely skilled compared to other people?
Check out Forbes or just use Google (literally this took me less than a minute to find) and you'll find plenty of articles about the problems with corporate culture. EDIT: Even more go use JSTOR. It's free.
Seriously, if I wanted to spoon feed information to people I'd go be a teacher and actually get paid for the task. Anyone who cares abotu economics should know this by now it's been an issue widely discussed for 20 years.
Dude... really?
So, it's the "Good Old Boys" argument then.
*meh*
Whatever... many of the articles are subjective.
Again... who's forcing companies to pay these high compensation packages?
And the law of the internet is upheld. Demand source then dismiss it out of hand as 'subjective.' You could at least harp on how its out of date or shows that smaller companies didnn't have the same problem but throwing up a red herring statement is much simpler. Thus why I've stopped bothering with 'pics or it didn't happen' requests. EDIT: Unfortunately I can only refuse to play the source game for so long before being forced to show how pointless it really is. If I really wanted to play that game so much I'd edit Wikipedia but that's an even greater example of futility.
Again... who's forcing companies to pay these high compensation packages?
Complex systems have a way of just making things happen without anyone inside realizing its happening. Force has nothing to do with it.
And the law of the internet is upheld. Demand source then dismiss it out of hand as 'subjective.' You could at least harp on how its out of date or shows that smaller companies didnn't have the same problem but throwing up a red herring statement is much simpler. Thus why I've stopped bothering with 'pics or it didn't happen' requests.
I just thought I asked an innocuous question and you took it as somehow attacking your claims. You obviously feel strongly about this and all I asked is what/how you're basing such statements.
Never meant to be disrespectful... sorry you felt that way.
Again... who's forcing companies to pay these high compensation packages?
Complex systems have a way of just making things happen without anyone inside realizing its happening. Force has nothing to do with it.
Never meant to be disrespectful... sorry you felt that way.
It's not about respect so much as not wanting to waste my time finding information that other people should have already found if they were so inclined to look for it. If they haven't already found it, they likely aren't going to agree with it even when presented with it, thus a futile use of time.
How would you fix it? Maxing compensation by law?
Maxing compensation is probably archaic as a solution (and unlikely to work a company can easily just find alternative ways to pay).
The simplist measure is just to tax the rich and reinvest the money to help those lower down but no one likes that idea, even if we're talking about people so bloody rich their grandchildren are set for life.
Another is to mandate parity in pay, i.e. Joe slugging it out in a cubical in accounting gets an amount relative to what CEO Bob in the corner office upstairs earned which would help bring out of control CEO payouts under control and improve the lot of the foot soldiers. EDIT: This could take several forms like compayn wide bonuses which some companies already do or salary control.
I don't expect the system to get fixed though. Sometimes like in the case of net neutrailty, super rich corpoations work to everyone's benefit, and sometimes like in this they'll keep the problem from being solved (like CEO's aren't going to allocate funds to lobby that they keep getting paid in metric tons of paper). Besides. I'm in the camp that believes the large consumer middle class was a fluke and it's only a matter of time before it ceases to exist (but then I'm a cynic).
Never meant to be disrespectful... sorry you felt that way.
It's not about respect so much as not wanting to waste my time finding information that other people should have already found if they were so inclined to look for it. If they haven't already found it, they likely aren't going to agree with it even when presented with it, thus a futile use of time.
Fair enough...
Besides. I'm in the camp that believes the large consumer middle class was a fluke and it's only a matter of time before it ceases to exist (but then I'm a cynic).
Now that's a curious statement...
I wonder if that's because the employment workforce hasn't adapted to needs of current industries.
wonder if that's because the employment workforce hasn't adapted to needs of current industries.
Give or take. The idea is that the consumer middle class only arouse due to economics of the late colonial era which relied heavily on the exploitation of Africa, Asia, and South America to raise the water level (so to speak) in Europe and the US. When those regions rise in economic power the middle class could slip into the lower due to the necessities of the global market place and cease to be what it was throughout the 20th century. Essentially its the grimist view short of anarchy one can take assuming the current economic system continues down its present course.
Other things being equal, income equality is better than inequality. But other things are NOT equal. The easiest way to make incomes more equal in the short run is to have a recession.
Much has been made of growing income inequality since 1979, but very little attention has been paid to which of the four presidental administrations preceding Barack Obama increased income equality and which ones reduced it. In short, the two presidents whose terms involved improving income equality were the two George Bushes and the two whose terms were associated with worsening after-tax income equality were Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton. It is probably not an accident that the two presidents in whose administrations the GDP grew the most were the two presidents whose time in office coincided with worsening income equality.
The president under whom the poorest quintile enjoyed the largest increase in after-tax household income was George W. Bush. And the two administrations under whom the richest quintile and richest 1 percent fared the worst were the two Presidents Bush. Among Barack Obama’s four immediate predecessors, the two biggest income equalizers were George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush.
Just to be clear, I am not pining for the good old days of the economy of George W. Bush.
But George W. Bush was the most successful of our recent past presidents in achieving very substantial increases in incomes for the poorest quintile (+18.4%), while keeping gains for the richest quintile and richest 1 percent at modest levels. For example, under Bush the Younger, the incomes of the richest 1 percent rose only 6.5 percent in eight years, compared to a staggering 84 percent under Clinton and 91 percent under Reagan.
If you would rather have Bill Clinton’s economy than George W. Bush’s economy – and I definitely would – then as a practical matter you probably don’t care overmuch about income equality.
Background Data
The best data on income inequality are put out by the Congressional Budget Office. (You can download the supplemental data on right side of this CBO page; the files unfortunately include only one year of Obama data, not enough to analyze here).
Which presidents did better or worse and in which respects? Figure 1 shows differences in the percentage of after-tax household income each segment of the population represents.
As you can see from Figure 1, the first George Bush’s presidency had no meaningful effect on the after-tax share of income for any segment of the population. The Reagan and Clinton presidencies closely tracked one another: in both presidencies the share of the poorest quintile showed a trivial drop, while the top 1% had a substantial boost of a half percent in their share of national household income.
The only presidency that had a big improvement in equality of income shares was George W. Bush’s. Each of the four quintiles in the bottom 80 percent enjoyed a substantial .4 to .6 increase in share, while the top 1 percent suffered a large 1.4 percent drop in their share of household income.
In some respects, Figure 2’s story is even more dramatic.
Between the end of 2000 and the end of 2008, the after-tax household income of the poorest quintile increased a hefty 18.4 percent in inflation-adjusted 2009 dollars. The income of the top quintile rose 9.3 percent while the income of the richest 1 percent increased only a modest 6.5 percent. Under George W. Bush, accordingly, a rising tide lifted all boats, but the boats of the poor caught a wave that (in percentage terms) raised them almost three times more than the richest 1 percent.
The Reagan and Clinton administrations oversaw large increases in income inequality, with the richest 1 percent under Clinton gaining 84 percent while the top 1 percent did even better under Reagan, obtaining a 91 percent increase. At the low end, the poorest quintile did well under Clinton (up 13.3 percent), but very poorly under Reagan (+0.6 percent). Those who care more about equality than about wealth creation might prefer George H.W. Bush’s performance to even his son’s. Under the Bush the Elder, the poorest quintile earned 10.2 percent more income in just four years, while the richest 1 percent suffered a 10.5 percent loss in household income.
If one looks instead at the Congressional Budget Office’s computation of Gini coefficients (which appear to be less driven by what is happening to the top 1 percent), after-tax household incomes grew more equal under the two Bushes and deteriorated under the Reagan and Clinton administrations.
Gini coefficients of inequality in after-tax household income during presidential terms (CBO, Table 9): 1. George H.W. Bush – reduced Gini coefficient by .016 (from .424 at the end of 1988 to .408 at the end of 1992)
2. George W. Bush – reduced Gini by .008
3. Bill Clinton – increased Gini by .044
4. Ronald Reagan — increased Gini by .062
Another way to look at patterns in inequality is to consider annual increases in after-tax household income for the lowest and the middle quintile:
Annual increases in average after-tax household income for lowest quintile (CBO, Table 3): 1. George H.W. Bush – 2.5% (total 10.2%)
2. George W. Bush – 2.1% (total 18.4%)
3. Bill Clinton – 1.6% (total 13.3%)
4. Ronald Reagan – 0.1% (total 0.6%)
Annual increases in average after-tax household income for middle quintile (CBO, Table 3): 1. Bill Clinton – 1.8% (total 15.8%)
2. George W. Bush – 1.5% (total 12.6%)
3. Ronald Reagan – 0.7% (total 5.8%)
4. George H.W. Bush – 0.2% (total 0.7%)
The two Bushes did better for the poorest quintile of households, while Bill Clinton and Bush the Younger did better for the middle class.
At the high end (where smaller increases promote greater equality), again the two Bushes did the best, both as regards the top quintile and the top 1 percent.
Annual increases in average after-tax household income for highest quintile (CBO, Table 3, reverse ranked): 1. George H.W. Bush – minus 0.6% (total minus 2.5%)
2. George W. Bush – + 1.1% (total + 9.3%)
3. Ronald Reagan – + 3.5% (total + 31.9%)
4. Bill Clinton – + 4.2% (total + 38.7%)
Annual increases in average after-tax household income for highest 1% (CBO, Table 3, reverse ranked): 1. George H.W. Bush – minus 2.7% (total minus 10.5%)
2. George W. Bush – + 0.8% (total + 6.5%)
3. Bill Clinton – + 7.9% (total + 84.1%)
4. Ronald Reagan – + 8.4% (total + 90.9%)
Leaving aside inequality for the moment, which administration enjoyed the biggest increases in GDPs and incomes overall. In GDP increases, Clinton and Reagan did similarly great, but Clinton did better than Reagan in average household income increases. And Bush the Elder’s administration did very poorly in average incomes, increasing a total of less than 1% over four years.
Annual increases in GDP: 1. Bill Clinton – 3.9% (total 35.7%)
2. Ronald Reagan – 3.5% (total 31.4%)
3. George H.W. Bush – 2.3% (total 9.3%)
4. George W. Bush – 1.6% (total 13.3%)
Annual increases in average after-tax household income (CBO, Table 3): 1. Bill Clinton – 3.0% (total 26.9%)
2. Ronald Reagan – 2.0% (total 17.3%)
3. George W. Bush – 1.1% (total 9.1%)
4. George H.W. Bush – 0.2% (total 0.7%)
If one looks at median household income, rather than averages, then George W. Bush moves ahead of Reagan in performance.
Annual increases in median after-tax household income (CBO, Table 5): 1. Bill Clinton – 2.1% (total 17.7%)
2. George W. Bush – 1.6% (total 13.3%)
3. Ronald Reagan – 0.6% (total 5.2%)
4. George H.W. Bush – 0.4% (total 1.7%)
The surprise for the median incomes table is the relatively poor performance under the Reagan administration. If one adjusts for changes in household size (as the CBO does in some tables), then Reagan’s increase in median household income almost doubles.
According to my analysis of the CBO data, the administration in which the economy was the best (both in GDP increases and in overall income increases) was the Clinton administration. Yet the best administration for increasing income equality was either the George W. Bush administration or that of his father, depending on the measure used.
The reason why CEOs in the USA and UK get paid so much is because the remuneration committees that recommend CEO pay have a lot of CEOs sitting on them, and each round of pay increases is adjusted according to the market average.
In countries such as Germany and Norway, the CEOs are not paid such huge premiums. Sadly that has led to those countries turning into benighted almost third world sloughs of despond filled with declining infrastructure, hollowed out industry, bad public health and crappy MacJobs.
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why CEOs in the USA and UK get paid so much is because the remuneration committees that recommend CEO pay have a lot of CEOs sitting on them, and each round of pay increases is adjusted according to the market average.
That sounds like Congress. Only with less opportunity for public outrage and response.
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why CEOs in the USA and UK get paid so much is because the remuneration committees that recommend CEO pay have a lot of CEOs sitting on them, and each round of pay increases is adjusted according to the market average.
In countries such as Germany and Norway, the CEOs are not paid such huge premiums. Sadly that has led to those countries turning into benighted almost third world sloughs of despond filled with declining infrastructure, hollowed out industry, bad public health and crappy MacJobs.
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why CEOs in the USA and UK get paid so much is because the remuneration committees that recommend CEO pay have a lot of CEOs sitting on them, and each round of pay increases is adjusted according to the market average.
That sounds like Congress. Only with less opportunity for public outrage and response.
LOL... almost.
They get their pay raises automatically. In order to stop it, an actual vote needs to happen.
Kilkrazy wrote: The reason why CEOs in the USA and UK get paid so much is because the remuneration committees that recommend CEO pay have a lot of CEOs sitting on them, and each round of pay increases is adjusted according to the market average.
In countries such as Germany and Norway, the CEOs are not paid such huge premiums. Sadly that has led to those countries turning into benighted almost third world sloughs of despond filled with declining infrastructure, hollowed out industry, bad public health and crappy MacJobs.
Not sure if it's down to remuneration alone. The German political landscape prevented them from shipping out their industrial base to China to increase shareholder value. Unions in turn were prepared to accept wage moderation in return for job security and a living wage.
It's also down to an extremely good education system that produces lots of the world's best technicians and engineers, and a banking system that is structured to support local sustained development of industry rather than skimming on mergers and foreign exchange transactions. And network effect, and a central location etc.
Kilkrazy wrote: It's also down to an extremely good education system that produces lots of the world's best technicians and engineers, and a banking system that is structured to support local sustained development of industry rather than skimming on mergers and foreign exchange transactions. And network effect, and a central location etc.
And yet despite all these odds the corporations manage to survive and prosper. It's a testament of the perseverance of corporations against policies for the masses.
Basically, the current trend of the rich getting richer is largely through aggressive cost cutting by suppressing employment/wages AND increasing productivity. I think that aptly explains why the DOW and S&P "looked" really well in the last decade, yet the employment/economic conditions in general suck.
Last night on "The Lance Roberts" show I was discussing the ongoing battle surrounding income inequality. The current Administration has taken on the "war on poverty" as its primary battle ground going into the mid-term elections later this year. I quoted Bill Dunkleberg recently in "NFIB/Gallup: Government Is The Problem" in regards to his very salient take on this issue.
"Since it is an election year, the main theme will be addressing the disparities in income and wealth (i.e. tax the rich and increase welfare programs) rather than promoting policies that would create jobs and raise incomes in a growing economy. This year, policy will be all about votes."
This isn't a new fight. As Robert Rector stated recently - that particular war has been less than successful.
"Fifty years and $20 trillion later, LBJ's goal to help the poor become self-supporting has failed."
However, while the Administration will use the argument to garner votes in an election year, the most interesting aspect about the income inequality debate is that it is the very policies of the current Administration that is fueling the income shift. My friend Shane Obata (@sobata416) recently studied the ongoing impact of the Federal Reserve's "quantitative easing" programs as a wealth transfer mechanism from the poor and middle class to the rich. The implications of this transfer effect, as shown in the chart below, on an economy that is nearly 70% driven by personal consumption expenditures suggests that the real "wealth effect" of the Fed's interventions has been a negative rather than a positive.
Spoiler:
This wealth transfer is clearly seen in the rise in corporate profitability over the last decade. The drive to increase profits has become the focus of corporate executives and Wall Street which comprise the bulk of the top 1% and are largely compensated by rising asset prices. Chris Brightman from Research Affiliates recently published a piece on corporate profits stating:
"Profits are dangerously elevated by all reasonable measures. S&P 500 Index real earnings per share are far above their long-term historical trend. Industry profit margins are at or near all-time highs. Corporate profits, both as a percentage of GDP and relative to labor income, are at or near record levels. The dramatic rise in income inequality is a direct consequence of this spectacular reallocation of income to capital and away from labor."
The chart below shows corporate profits as both a function of employees and wages which illustrates Chris' point quite clearly.
Those two charts also suggest that, despite hopes of continued profit growth, the ability to increase profits from suppressing employment and wages is both finite and likely nearer its end than the beginning. In other words, what happens to corporate profit growth when there is an inability to extract profitability through cost cutting? Chris makes an interesting point in this regard:
"For nearly a quarter century, we have experienced profits growing at a faster clip than GDP. Extrapolating this trend into the future is speculative at best. Equilibrium real growth in earnings per share cannot exceed real growth in per capita GDP, real growth in wages, and real productivity growth, on a long-term basis, without violating our sense of social fairness: More rapid growth in profits than GDP means a rising share of income to capital. Capital's share cannot rise in perpetuity; social and political forces, if not economic developments, will cause it—sooner or later— to revert to a more usual level.
Many of today's investors uncritically assume that the conditions they have known over the course of their professional careers must be normal. The idea that we may soon experience a multi-decade period of zero or negative growth in real earnings per share, taking the level of profits down to a lower share of national income, seems preposterous. Yet economic history has seen many examples of such a turn, including the 1880–1890s, the World Wars, the 1930s, and the 1970–1980s. In fact, almost every decade except the 1990s and 2000s saw a protracted profits slump. Some declines in profitability lasted most of a decade; others, longer!"
His analysis has severe implications on both the future of the stock market and the inherent "wealth effect" created by the surge in asset prices. Furthermore, this also suggests that the "wealth gap" will be somewhat rectified as a reversion is asset prices negatively impacts the "rich" far more than the "poor." However, did the "leveling of the playing field" do anything to change the income inequality dynamics? Is anyone better off if the rich aren't as "rich?"
Asset price reversions do not fix the inherent problem that currently plagues the middle and lower income classes. While the war on income inequality is a noble one, the reality is that it will remain a losing battle as taking from "the rich" and "give to the poor" it is only a temporary solution. As Walter Williams recently wrote:
"Most of what's said about income inequality is stupid or, at best, ill-informed. Much to their disgrace, economists focusing on measures of income inequality bring little light to the issue.
Except in many instances when government rigs the game with crony capitalism, income is mostly a result of one's productivity and the value that people place on that productivity.
Far more important than income inequality is productivity inequality. That suggests that if there's anything to be done about income inequality, we should focus on how to give people greater capacity to serve their fellow man, namely raise their productivity."
In other words, fixing income inequality is about fixing the problem of productive inequality. As the old Chinese proverb states:
"Give a man to fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime."
Maybe that is the right place to start if you really want to fix inequality in America.
In other words, fixing income inequality is about fixing the problem of productive inequality. As the old Chinese proverb states:
"Give a man to fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime."
Maybe that is the right place to start if you really want to fix inequality in America.
How is that any different from what the majority of liberals are actually advocating for?
I think the difference is purely the execution of said policies... and you're right... there are things that both liberals and conservatives want. It boils down to HOW do we achieve those goals.
You know, that whole "You didn't build that" speech that you hate so much? This is exactly what that speech was talking about...
And no, I disagree with that... the president was needlessly insulting. He wasn’t just calling on successful people to pay more in tax... but was being dismissive of their accomplishments. Another way of saying that is “we can tax you because you didn’t deserve this anyway.”
Kilkrazy wrote: It's also down to an extremely good education system that produces lots of the world's best technicians and engineers, and a banking system that is structured to support local sustained development of industry rather than skimming on mergers and foreign exchange transactions. And network effect, and a central location etc.
And just having a government that's on all levels not mostly composed of morons or people just on the side of wrong side of selfish.
I was in Austria over the new year, and the place was surprisingly filled with Germans. Nice, friendly Germans, who liked talking about Germany. Everything from their afore mentioned banking system to their learner driver system seems leagues more sensible than the equivalents in most countries I've heard of or visited. Like the UK, that cesspit. I have nothing to add about income equality or the tosser featured in the OP, I just like Germany now. A country that's sensibly run by sensible people, and does sensibly well for itself.
And no, I disagree with that... the president was needlessly insulting. He wasn’t just calling on successful people to pay more in tax... but was being dismissive of their accomplishments. Another way of saying that is “we can tax you because you didn’t deserve this anyway.”
And I'd argue that a big portion of the 1% don't, but that's another story.
And no, I disagree with that... the president was needlessly insulting. He wasn’t just calling on successful people to pay more in tax... but was being dismissive of their accomplishments. Another way of saying that is “we can tax you because you didn’t deserve this anyway.”
And no, I disagree with that... the president was needlessly insulting. He wasn’t just calling on successful people to pay more in tax... but was being dismissive of their accomplishments. Another way of saying that is “we can tax you because you didn’t deserve this anyway.”
Oh noes! The ego is the worst thing to bruise!
Pfft, nothing on the Id, it lashes out. Monsters... Creatures from the ID!
You know, that whole "You didn't build that" speech that you hate so much? This is exactly what that speech was talking about...
And no, I disagree with that... the president was needlessly insulting. He wasn’t just calling on successful people to pay more in tax... but was being dismissive of their accomplishments.
If people are insulted because Obama told them that they were not their own teachers and didn't build their own roads and bridges, then they are stupid and deserve to feel insulted...
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that [American system that we have that allowed you to thrive].
The point is that he said the exact same thing that you quoted. But because Obama said it it was bad. If its somebody you like that says it, then the message suddenly becomes good.
Another way of saying that is “we can tax you because you didn’t deserve this anyway.”
No.
It is saying "you were successful in a system that was paid for by taxes. Now you pay taxes to keep the same system alive so that other people can have the same opportunities as you".
That is the surprising thing, that Tom Perkins -- who is rich enough just to go and live in Bali in a flying castle full of supermodels for the rest of his life -- actually seems to be bothered by what the sucky plebs and losers are saying about people like him.
You know, that whole "You didn't build that" speech that you hate so much? This is exactly what that speech was talking about...
And no, I disagree with that... the president was needlessly insulting. He wasn’t just calling on successful people to pay more in tax... but was being dismissive of their accomplishments.
If people are insulted because Obama told them that they were not their own teachers and didn't build their own roads and bridges, then they are stupid and deserve to feel insulted...
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that [American system that we have that allowed you to thrive].
The point is that he said the exact same thing that you quoted. But because Obama said it it was bad. If its somebody you like that says it, then the message suddenly becomes good.
Another way of saying that is “we can tax you because you didn’t deserve this anyway.”
No.
It is saying "you were successful in a system that was paid for by taxes. Now you pay taxes to keep the same system alive so that other people can have the same opportunities as you".
You see... you're missing the point. You're so vested to protect your hero that you're trying to change conversation.
Here's Obama's full quote, I underlined the "dismissive" part, so that you can see where I'm coming from:
There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.
The argument isn't over whether Obama's critics were taking "you didn't build that" out of context, the argument is that accomplishments in business is a "collective exercise" is deeply offensive to most people in business.
The very argument is disingenuous...
I have yet to hear from mainstream Republicans, Tea Party activists, or any other Righties who are genuinely against public roads, public education, police departments, firefighters, etc...
So, your argument falls flat on it's face here...
I mean, there will always be disagreement on policy matter, but most conservatives/Tea Party/or... feth it, opponents to Democrats, have never said that we should do away with roads, police, teachers, firefighters, or national defense.... To suggest otherwise, is so flipping transparently dishonest that it can only be explained as an attack on "successful" people for political advantage. That's the dismissive part.
Comprende?
Continuing the coversation... I've yet to see any arguments that "successful" people should not pay more tax than... unsuccessful people. Have you?
I've yet to see an argument that "successful" people should pay less tax, either in absolute terms or as a percentage of their income, than "unsuccessful" people. (unless you're one of those Flat Tax believer, even then, under that scheme, if you have more money, you'd pay more)
So, when politicians argues otherwise, ie, "They're not paying their fair share", they are being dishonest. But hey... since when do Politicians tell the truth?
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Kilkrazy wrote: That is the surprising thing, that Tom Perkins -- who is rich enough just to go and live in Bali in a flying castle full of supermodels for the rest of his life -- actually seems to be bothered by what the sucky plebs and losers are saying about people like him.
Yeah.. definitely has thin skinned... if your that wealthy, zero feths should be given of what other people thinks of you.
Somebody else made that happen = you didn't make the American system happen on your own. You didn't create the system in which you were successful.
Comprende?
And he still said the exact same thing that the quote you supported said. That the system made an evironment on which they were successful. And they should help keep it that way.
That's not minimizing business. That's not punishing successful people. It's helping people learn how to fish and fostering a system where fishing will remain an option for the people that want to learn to become better fishermen and build their fishing empire.
And if you don't think that there are mainstream conservatives who have demonized every group that you mentioned then you have some serious blinders on. No wonder you think that one person is full of great ideas that support enterpreneurs and another is dismissing them when both of them are saying the same thing...
d-usa wrote: Somebody else made that happen = you didn't make the American system happen on your own. You didn't create the system in which you were successful. Comprende?
And he still said the exact same thing that the quote you supported said. That the system made an evironment on which they were successful. And they should help keep it that way.
Wrong...
That's NOT the "message/context" that was conveyed in Obama's Roanoke speech. The message was ”You don’t get credit for your hard work"... it contains an undertone that business owners are selfish, that they are ungrateful toward those teachers who helped them along the way, ungrateful for the roads, police, public services via public taxes.
It was NOT the equivalent of that Chinese proverb d-usa.
That's not minimizing business. That's not punishing successful people. It's helping people learn how to fish and fostering a system where fishing will remain an option for the people that want to learn to become better fishermen and build their fishing empire.
We'll go in circle here dude... I agree with that... but that speech was nothing like that. And it's largely because of who Obama is and what he stands for... Obama comes from a political fabric that sees government as the solution to everything. Perspective AND context matters.
It's the exact same fething thing as the "spread the wealth around" spiel when talking to Joe the Plumber.
Again, we're not wanting to do away with what the government provided.
And if you don't think that there are mainstream conservatives who have demonized every group that you mentioned then you have some serious blinders on. No wonder you think that one person is full of great ideas that support enterpreneurs and another is dismissing them when both of them are saying the same thing...
*sigh*
Whatever dude... keep defending your team, as will I.
The policy argument here is that liberals want to invest in the system to help the next generation's Steve Jobs or Bill Gates become successful. In order to do this they want the current generation(s) of successful Americans to give back by more taxes to support the system. Investing in education, job training, trying to tackle income inequality or poverty.
Republicans have faith that the current generation(s) of successful people "to do the right thing". They want to invest in the current generation through tax cuts directed at the rich and successful. Republicans seem to define successful in their tax policies as rich Americans in the top tax bracket. Conservatives and Republicans love to call the rich "job creators".
My problem is that the next generation's Steve Jobs is not in the top tax bracket. He probably is a young kid raised by people in the working/middle class who also aren't in the top tax bracket. Republicans plan is trusts that rich men like the man who prompted this thread will "do the right thing" and their money will trickle down.
whembly wrote: but that speech was nothing like that. And it's largely because of who Obama is and what he stands for...
I think that we have established in the past that things like that are bad not because of what he said, but simply because it is Obama who said it.
And if you don't think that there are mainstream conservatives who have demonized every group that you mentioned then you have some serious blinders on. No wonder you think that one person is full of great ideas that support enterpreneurs and another is dismissing them when both of them are saying the same thing...
*sigh*
Whatever dude... keep defending your team, as will I.
Are you really sitting on your end of the internet with a straight face right now?
But you seriously have yet to hear a single Republican, Tea Party activist, or any other Rightie that is against public roads, public education, police departments, firefighters, etc...?
whembly wrote: but that speech was nothing like that. And it's largely because of who Obama is and what he stands for...
I think that we have established in the past that things like that are bad not because of what he said, but simply because it is Obama who said it.
Well... if its like that d... then don't fething listen to me then.
At least give me credit for remaining consistent. That Obama is one of the worst President we've had.
And if you don't think that there are mainstream conservatives who have demonized every group that you mentioned then you have some serious blinders on. No wonder you think that one person is full of great ideas that support enterpreneurs and another is dismissing them when both of them are saying the same thing...
*sigh*
Whatever dude... keep defending your team, as will I.
Are you really sitting on your end of the internet with a straight face right now?
But you seriously have yet to hear a single Republican, Tea Party activist, or any other Rightie that is against public roads, public education, police departments, firefighters, etc...?
Well, if you have never heard an anti-public sector republican because they never said they wanted to get rid of the public sector completely then you must be happy that our president is not anti-gun or anti-military.
d-usa... I must truly aggravate you to no end... to try to bring up old arguments like this.
And it's not about the old argument.
Its about the fact that you are in this thread talking about how we should make sure we have a system that lets people be successful instead of giving them handouts even though you have a history of attacking (and still do) a guy who said that successful people had help from a system that they didn't create and that we should continue to make sure we have that system that lets people be successful.
d-usa wrote: Well, if you have never heard an anti-public sector republican because they never said they wanted to get rid of the public sector completely then you must be happy that our president is not anti-gun or anti-military.
You keep on believing that, because there's nothing I can say that'll change your mind. So, if it makes you feel better... go for it.
d-usa... I must truly aggravate you to no end... to try to bring up old arguments like this.
And it's not about the old argument.
Yes it is... you couldn't wait to jump on my case on how stupid I am back in 2012.
Its about the fact that you are in this thread talking about how we should make sure we have a system that lets people be successful instead of giving them handouts even though you have a history of attacking (and still do) a guy who said that successful people had help from a system that they didn't create and that we should continue to make sure we have that system that lets people be successful.
I'm all for creating a environment that encourages successful people.
The difference is that YOU and I view Obama's Roanoke's speech very differently.
You're not going to change my mind and I'm obviously not going to change yours.
The argument isn't over whether Obama's critics were taking "you didn't build that" out of context, the argument is that accomplishments in business is a "collective exercise" is deeply offensive to most people in business.
Indeed, but the bootstrap myth needs to be dispelled somehow.
I have yet to hear from mainstream Republicans, Tea Party activists, or any other Righties who are genuinely against public roads, public education, police departments, firefighters, etc...
No, they just get offended* when it is pointed out that they benefited from those things, and that the bootstrap myth is, in fact, a myth.
The message was ”You don’t get credit for your hard work".
No, it was that "You get credit for your hard work you, just don't get sole credit for your success".
That's your opinion in interpreting that statement.
Look at it this way, would apple have been so successful if it started anywhere else? Would Microsoft?
Look at it this way, do politicians not appreciate that business owners match every dollar their employees contribute to Social Security and Medicare?
Do politicians not understand when they are patting themselves on the back for raising minimum wage or implement healthcare mandates that somewhere, some shop owner may have to raise prices, cut back employee hours, or rethink the store's hours of operation?
Can't you see how dismissive that statement was?
Whatever... we're getting off track. That article I posted, I thought it was an interesting (although, not too sure if accurate) ruminations on why/how the super-rich is pulling away.
Indeed, you consistently make bad arguments, and then try to deflect conversation when called on that fact.
Uh... no, I've stayed on point. Deflecting is right in your wheelhouse bucko.
No, you haven't.
You first claimed that Sebster was making a straw man argument, when no such thing occurred. When I called you on that fact, you attempted to deflect by way of "Speak for yourself dude. Seb and I are debating from different viewpoints."
You had the opportunity to write "You are correct, Sebster did not commit a straw man fallacy; I was mistaken." But instead you chose to ape The Big Lebowski.
No I can't. I own two businesses and I know that , while I put in a lot of hard work, I am not the only factor that determines success. People talk about poor people and entitlements, the truth is that the rich also feel very entitled to take as much as they can.
When I see CEO and other rich people defend their right to make as much money as they possibly can while cutting employee benefits and pay, I realize that these people honestly believe that they are the sole reason their multinational company is successful.....they are wrong!
I worked for the phone company many years ago and witnessed the cuts to our benefits, cutting our workforce but forcing those who stayed to do much more work, and no pay raises...all while watching the CEOS get extra large bonuses. This is the trend right now and the reason why the middle class is basically disappearing.
My problem is that the next generation's Steve Jobs is not in the top tax bracket. He probably is a young kid raised by people in the working/middle class who also aren't in the top tax bracket. Republicans plan is trusts that rich men like the man who prompted this thread will "do the right thing" and their money will trickle down.
See, my problem is that THIS generation's Steve Jobs was not in the top tax bracket when he and Bill gates started out. You get there through ingenuity, hard work and a little dumb luck. It's been proven over and over that you can't legislate prosperity for the masses. You can lead and inspire them to it, but they have to work for it themselves. Even then not everybody gets rich, but they all get richer.
Letting the government tell somebody what they're worth to society is wrong. Letting the government tell businesses that they can only place so much value on any particular person is wrong.
You can lead and inspire them to it, but they have to work for it themselves. Even then not everybody gets rich, but they all get richer.
Um no, in fact most people have gotten poorer, because the greed of the top earners is unchecked.
Letting the government tell somebody what they're worth to society is wrong. Letting the government tell businesses that they can only place so much value on any particular person is wrong.
I don't ever really see that happening, and if it does, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. CEO pay is so out of wack right now and its all off the backs of the employees who have not seen gains in income in almost 30 years, yet have seen benefits and workforce cut, while responsibilities and work have increased.
Lordhat wrote: See, my problem is that THIS generation's Steve Jobs was not in the top tax bracket when he and Bill gates started out. You get there through ingenuity, hard work and a little dumb luck. It's been proven over and over that you can't legislate prosperity for the masses. You can lead and inspire them to it, but they have to work for it themselves. Even then not everybody gets rich, but they all get richer.
Letting the government tell somebody what they're worth to society is wrong. Letting the government tell businesses that they can only place so much value on any particular person is wrong.
Exactly people like them weren't in the top tax bracket. That is my point. You can't force people to be successful no one is claiming that, though there are penalty of studies in economics talking about what various factors have to do the probability of success. From a Marco economic perspective investing in education, work training, etc. do have significant effects on economic outcomes. Just like lack of education, women having children early in life, etc. tend to have negative effects on economic outcomes. There is plenty of data on this. When we are talking about policy such as a speech made the president of the United States, we don't care about individuals as much as overall outcomes for groups and the larger picture.
The larger picture in United States is stagnate incomes, a minimum wage that worth less than it was in decades past, and host of other problems. Forgive me but I don't think tax cuts are a panacea for all economic ills.
Now even if we provide these kids with best we can provide they can still fall flat on their face, that doesn't mean we shouldn't bother to invest in them at all. If you really think that you can't offer policy prescriptions to make for better outcomes then why the hell do so many economists have jobs advising businesses and governments?
whembly wrote: Classic straw man Seb... but, I'll play along.
It isn't a straw man... when people defend rising inequality by pointing out the rich pay most of the tax, then pointing out that the rich are still miles ahead in post-tax income, while the working class is behind on post-tax income is a direct response.
I'd argue that you're looking at it the wrong way.
CEO, or that manager in your example, are paid that much because of what other people are willing to pay them.
First up, that's moving the conversation. The issue had been on tax of the rich, and whether that was a justification for income disparity.
Second up, yes, that is how the labour market works - the employer names a price and the employee decides if that's worth his time. And apart from some amendments (minimum wage, progressive taxes etc), we've been happy to let the system operate like that, because for the most part it has serviced the people as a whole quite well. The level of inequality in the system was a fair price to pay for the overall increase in wealth and prosperity enjoyed by the majority.
But there is absolutely nothing saying that if, at any time, that system no longer serviced the people well, that it couldn't be changed. And given the dramatic increase in inequality of incomes, and the lack of economic improvement of low income people in the last three decades, there is little to no argument that the current system must be maintained.
LordofHats wrote: Not to mention that over the years its become increasingly evident that many CEO's earning big bucks, aren't that uniquely skilled compred to other people. They get replaced in a meager four or five years because they aren't that good at what they do, and still get paid more in severance than most of us earn in a life time. They're essntially paid for a position they spend little time in and that has a vast pool of available candidates capable of fulfilling the roll. While this would drive down pay in other fields of work the pay of CEO's pay just keeps going up which is the opposite of what is supposed to happen in a free market. EDIT: Many of them make so much money after a decade of CEOing they can effectively retire and never worry about money again which they do.
There is a hell of a lot of evidence that most companies are extremely bad at assessing the performance or quality of their CEO. And there's even more evidence that the CEO's rate of pay is, if anything, negatively correlated with the long term performance of their company.
CEO pay is a classic example of a market that is about as far from perfect market conditions as you can get.
LordofHats wrote: The same thing is happening today. People are invested in the idea that some day they will achieve a degree of wealth that allows them sit back and relax and secure similar or better for their children.
The good news is that many people are increasingly aware of their real place in the economic pecking order;
One means the other. There simply is no equality of opportunity between a kid born to parents earning $7 an hour and gone from the house 100 hours a week between them just to earn enough to make ends meet, and a kid born to a lawyer earning $250k while the other parent stays at home.
If you genuinely, honestly want to give a kid an equal chance to succeed, you have to ensure his his family a basic level of income.
You see... this is why I asked you what you meant by "income equality" and MORE specifically, what would you be in favor of to address it?
Income equality, a term being used by today's liberals, is utopia. It's a catchy word to drive the argument that the rich is too rich.
Now, don't get me wrong... I think the system is TOTALLY and COMPLETELY rigged in favor of the wealthy. I'm all in favor of leveling the "playing field". But that doesn't simply mean, hey, let's jack up the top 10% taxes to 70%, and LEAVE everything else alone.
The. Whole. fething. System. Needs. A. Overhaul.
Maybe, maybe not. There could be a lot of things going wrong that will need to be fixed, or maybe a lot of things look terrible right now because of the state of the economy right now, that won't look so bad when things have recovered.
But I do know that a reworking of the tax brackets, to place a further burden on the rich, while reducing tax on the middle class would go a long way. Raise the minimum wage as well, and, well, even if the whole system needs an overhaul, at least right now you'll have things that are much improved.
No Seb... that's exactly what this is... Obama perfectly encapsulate this mentality with his unscripted encounter with "Joe the Plumber" when he said:
... if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody’s so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.
This mentality is... the wealthy (however that's defined) is not contributing their fair share.
What I'm saying is that it isn't about picking out specific people and saying 'you have too much, give us some'. It's just about recognising the basic fact that if the people with lots had less so that the people with little had more... then you'd have a more equal system.
I agree that in some places there are people who are all about naming specific rich people and exactly how large their fortunes are, and then describing how much of a jerk they might be... and that stuff is not a useful part of the conversation. That nonsense about Romney's horses for instance.
Um... isn't that life? Aren't you arguing for "The Perfect System"? I vaguely remember you posting a great article on this topic way back when...
Do you mean when I've mentioned Perfect Market? The point to the Perfect Market is that you never actually get it, it's just that the closer you get the closer to an optimum result you'll achieve. But given you never actually get there, what you need to do is look at the specifics of each market, and figure out the exact ways in which that market falls short, and if anything needs to be done to account for that.
Huh? Can you elaborate on this? "it doesn't ask for actual income but just a category". o.O My synapes are misfiring here...
Sorry, weird typo on my part. Should be 'only certain categories of income' or something like that. Point is, it doesn't ask for capital gains income and stuff like that, and the bigger point is that it's a volunteered number - which is generally significantly understated at the highest incomes, and possibly even understated at the lower incomes.
As a result, anyone looking for reliable information uses tax return data, which shows a much different, and far less happy story.
Why? It makes perfect sense to me...
The lowest 20% haven't had flat incomes for 30 years while the top 1% have had their incomes increase ten time over, because the poor are working less and the rich working 10 times more than they used to.
Why are you surprised about this? What's that old adage about having more money? Something like, the more you have, it becomes a force multiplier... (I know I butchered that horribly).
Because that wasn't a trend for several generations before that. At the start of the 20th century, wealth inequality was also severe (whether it was worse than now depends on who you ask). But then we saw the rise of the middle class, and while the rich still got richer, the rest of the population got richer even faster as they moved from poverty to middle class living. So while the rich got richer, say a rich person might have double their real income from $1m to $2m in that time, the wages for the median worker might have risen from $500 in real income to $2,000.
That process began to reverse in the late 70s.
I disagree... but, remember, the Reagan era didn't just cut taxes (as most righties keep preaching)... but, he increase government spending (military, infrastractures, oil leases, etc...). Without the increased government spending to spur the economic engine, simply cutting taxes then wouldn't have done jack squat.
Or more to the point, none of that drove the real cause of prosperity - which was due to a release on the previous ultra-tight money management (that had been a necessary evil to break the back of stagflation) coupled with the computing revolution.
The tax cuts and government spending were just pumping money in to an economy that was already operating at capacity. Think of it this way, say there's ten fish for sale, and ten buyers who all want a fish, all of whom are happy to pay $5, no brainer, ten fish get sold for a total of $50. Then another guy turns up, he has $20 and he wants to buy a fish. A bidding war starts among the consumers, and now maybe the ten fish get sold for $7 each and one buyer misses out. So now maybe $70 changes hands, but the real, underlying economic movement is still just 10 fish going to consumers. To actually meaningfully change the amount of fish going to consumers, you have to be in a state where there's 10 fish for sale, and less than 10 buyers, otherwise all you do is drive up prices while the actual production of the economy remains the same. And there's only been two points in recent US history where there was less than ten buyers of fish - the depression you are just coming out of, and the Great Depression.
Sorry if that example isn't clear, that's like three chapters of macro in one mildly silly anecdote.
Lazy is a bit harsh , but I was simplifying, yeah. Point taken.
Social mobility is fine, but I believe we can do better and I've advocated that attention need to be focused on early education.
Social mobility is getting worse. As I've said before, the US used to be the absolute leading light in the world on social mobility, it used to be that you had a greater chance of 'making it' in the US than anywhere else in the world. That was something your country used to be quite rightly proud of. Now as you're getting worse other countries are getting better, and the response seems to be to pretend that it isn't really something a country should strive to improve, which is disappointing, to be honest.
And it isn't just education. William Wilson wrote a great book in which he pointed out that while there's been a lot blamed on 'black culture' and how it failed inner city black communities, there was never anything wrong with 'black culture' when there were plenty of jobs in the inner city. The bad 'black culture' rose up as a response to the collapse of jobs in the region. Thing is, jobs are disappearing from lots of rural regions. You look at a region like Appalachia, and as the jobs dry up you see the rise of a white ghetto.
Education doesn't fix that - equitable school funding is great, but it does nothing when there's no jobs in a community.
Again, we should've cut taxes (especially in those small businesses category) in conjunction to any stimulus package.
There is perhaps hundreds of independant studies from multiple countries looking at the stimulus impact of different fiscal measures, and tax cuts are among the worst. Actually just giving people money works better. Hiring people to do jobs works even better.
Trickle down doesn't work?
I'd say it works, but not to the extent that everyone claiming it to be... it ain't the end-all-be-all solution.
Doesn't work. It was supposed to drive up everyone's income, so much so that while the rich got most, the poor and working class also saw their total incomes rise. 30 years on the rich saw their incomes rise dramatically, but nothing trickled down to the poor and working classes.
Now, I'll qualify that by saying there's more going economically than just trickle down (manufacturing to China etc) but trickle down simply did nothing to drive up incomes among the least fortunate.
With a combination of free-market and sane government regulation policies.
Yes! And here we are on exactly the same page.
I guess the sticking point is on exactly what constitutes 'sane' government policies
Ah... you've answered my question.
Great response... but the questions will be "by how much".
On taxes, I think you can do a lot of good just by removing the free lunch on capital gains, and using that money to reduce tax rates on middle class incomes. On minimum wage, I think $1 an hour now, to be followed with another $1 an hour next year, and from then on to be reviewed to see if another $1 an hour would impact employment too much.
They're free to do that... but, in the long run, that isn't good for the US. I'd advocate that we should somehow encourage the wealthy to NOT move their money offshores. It's seems that we're in a cycle that as taxes increases for them, they're more likely to move their wealth offshores and the US loses the opportunity to have that money reinvested back into the economy.
Ultimately, they'll move offshore as long as the economics are there. Taxes don't matter when you can get kids in Vietnam to make the product for a few cents an hour. And taxes don't matter when the skilled labour you need for your engineering project lives in the USA.
On finance it's a different matter, Wall Street and Fleet Street are the centres of global trade, for historical reasons, sustained by network effects, but always subject to disappearing to some other place that offered lower taxes. But you can make special exemptions for finance (you've got quite a history of that already )
Right... but, I don't get the sense that they're really complaining. I mean, it's been goodfor the super wealthy... right?
This thread started because a guy compared rich people like himself to Jews in Nazi Germany That's not just complaining, that's a near delusional martyr complex.
whembly wrote: Classic straw man Seb... but, I'll play along.
It isn't a straw man... when people defend rising inequality by pointing out the rich pay most of the tax, then pointing out that the rich are still miles ahead in post-tax income, while the working class is behind on post-tax income is a direct response.
Fair enough dude... I was wrong.
I'd argue that you're looking at it the wrong way.
CEO, or that manager in your example, are paid that much because of what other people are willing to pay them.
First up, that's moving the conversation. The issue had been on tax of the rich, and whether that was a justification for income disparity.
O.o Okay... I thought we were discussing that too.
Second up, yes, that is how the labour market works - the employer names a price and the employee decides if that's worth his time. And apart from some amendments (minimum wage, progressive taxes etc), we've been happy to let the system operate like that, because for the most part it has serviced the people as a whole quite well. The level of inequality in the system was a fair price to pay for the overall increase in wealth and prosperity enjoyed by the majority.
Yup.
But there is absolutely nothing saying that if, at any time, that system no longer serviced the people well, that it couldn't be changed. And given the dramatic increase in inequality of incomes, and the lack of economic improvement of low income people in the last three decades, there is little to no argument that the current system must be maintained.
Of course... like I said previously, it's not perfect and should be addressed somehow.
It's just that different groups have different ideas on how to address these issues.
One means the other. There simply is no equality of opportunity between a kid born to parents earning $7 an hour and gone from the house 100 hours a week between them just to earn enough to make ends meet, and a kid born to a lawyer earning $250k while the other parent stays at home.
If you genuinely, honestly want to give a kid an equal chance to succeed, you have to ensure his his family a basic level of income.
How do you achieve this?
Equal chance doesn't mean that everyone is equipped to achieve things in the same way. That's impossible. Equal chance just means the opportunity is there for everyone.
Yes, that means some individuals will have an easier/harder time to reach for that opportunity, but that's life.
You see... this is why I asked you what you meant by "income equality" and MORE specifically, what would you be in favor of to address it?
Income equality, a term being used by today's liberals, is utopia. It's a catchy word to drive the argument that the rich is too rich.
Now, don't get me wrong... I think the system is TOTALLY and COMPLETELY rigged in favor of the wealthy. I'm all in favor of leveling the "playing field". But that doesn't simply mean, hey, let's jack up the top 10% taxes to 70%, and LEAVE everything else alone.
The. Whole. fething. System. Needs. A. Overhaul.
Maybe, maybe not. There could be a lot of things going wrong that will need to be fixed, or maybe a lot of things look terrible right now because of the state of the economy right now, that won't look so bad when things have recovered.
Eh... good point. I'm just worried that there are structural problems with the economy and government actions such that any tweaks would be steamrolled.
But I do know that a reworking of the tax brackets, to place a further burden on the rich, while reducing tax on the middle class would go a long way. Raise the minimum wage as well, and, well, even if the whole system needs an overhaul, at least right now you'll have things that are much improved.
Agreed.
No Seb... that's exactly what this is... Obama perfectly encapsulate this mentality with his unscripted encounter with "Joe the Plumber" when he said:
... if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody’s so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.
This mentality is... the wealthy (however that's defined) is not contributing their fair share.
What I'm saying is that it isn't about picking out specific people and saying 'you have too much, give us some'. It's just about recognising the basic fact that if the people with lots had less so that the people with little had more... then you'd have a more equal system.
I agree that in some places there are people who are all about naming specific rich people and exactly how large their fortunes are, and then describing how much of a jerk they might be... and that stuff is not a useful part of the conversation. That nonsense about Romney's horses for instance.
Yeah... be the devil is in the details, eh?
Um... isn't that life? Aren't you arguing for "The Perfect System"? I vaguely remember you posting a great article on this topic way back when...
Do you mean when I've mentioned Perfect Market? The point to the Perfect Market is that you never actually get it, it's just that the closer you get the closer to an optimum result you'll achieve. But given you never actually get there, what you need to do is look at the specifics of each market, and figure out the exact ways in which that market falls short, and if anything needs to be done to account for that.
Yup... that's it.
Huh? Can you elaborate on this? "it doesn't ask for actual income but just a category". o.O My synapes are misfiring here...
Sorry, weird typo on my part. Should be 'only certain categories of income' or something like that. Point is, it doesn't ask for capital gains income and stuff like that, and the bigger point is that it's a volunteered number - which is generally significantly understated at the highest incomes, and possibly even understated at the lower incomes.
As a result, anyone looking for reliable information uses tax return data, which shows a much different, and far less happy story.
Ah... gotcha. Fair enough.
Why? It makes perfect sense to me...
The lowest 20% haven't had flat incomes for 30 years while the top 1% have had their incomes increase ten time over, because the poor are working less and the rich working 10 times more than they used to.
Yeah... I know... did you see that last big article I posted? That may explain how the super-rich are getting richer.
Why are you surprised about this? What's that old adage about having more money? Something like, the more you have, it becomes a force multiplier... (I know I butchered that horribly).
Because that wasn't a trend for several generations before that. At the start of the 20th century, wealth inequality was also severe (whether it was worse than now depends on who you ask). But then we saw the rise of the middle class, and while the rich still got richer, the rest of the population got richer even faster as they moved from poverty to middle class living. So while the rich got richer, say a rich person might have double their real income from $1m to $2m in that time, the wages for the median worker might have risen from $500 in real income to $2,000.
I disagree... but, remember, the Reagan era didn't just cut taxes (as most righties keep preaching)... but, he increase government spending (military, infrastractures, oil leases, etc...). Without the increased government spending to spur the economic engine, simply cutting taxes then wouldn't have done jack squat.
Or more to the point, none of that drove the real cause of prosperity - which was due to a release on the previous ultra-tight money management (that had been a necessary evil to break the back of stagflation) coupled with the computing revolution.
The tax cuts and government spending were just pumping money in to an economy that was already operating at capacity. Think of it this way, say there's ten fish for sale, and ten buyers who all want a fish, all of whom are happy to pay $5, no brainer, ten fish get sold for a total of $50. Then another guy turns up, he has $20 and he wants to buy a fish. A bidding war starts among the consumers, and now maybe the ten fish get sold for $7 each and one buyer misses out. So now maybe $70 changes hands, but the real, underlying economic movement is still just 10 fish going to consumers. To actually meaningfully change the amount of fish going to consumers, you have to be in a state where there's 10 fish for sale, and less than 10 buyers, otherwise all you do is drive up prices while the actual production of the economy remains the same. And there's only been two points in recent US history where there was less than ten buyers of fish - the depression you are just coming out of, and the Great Depression.
Sorry if that example isn't clear, that's like three chapters of macro in one mildly silly anecdote.
Lazy is a bit harsh , but I was simplifying, yeah. Point taken.
Sorry... that is a bit harsh.
Social mobility is fine, but I believe we can do better and I've advocated that attention need to be focused on early education.
Social mobility is getting worse. As I've said before, the US used to be the absolute leading light in the world on social mobility, it used to be that you had a greater chance of 'making it' in the US than anywhere else in the world. That was something your country used to be quite rightly proud of. Now as you're getting worse other countries are getting better, and the response seems to be to pretend that it isn't really something a country should strive to improve, which is disappointing, to be honest.
And it isn't just education. William Wilson wrote a great book in which he pointed out that while there's been a lot blamed on 'black culture' and how it failed inner city black communities, there was never anything wrong with 'black culture' when there were plenty of jobs in the inner city. The bad 'black culture' rose up as a response to the collapse of jobs in the region. Thing is, jobs are disappearing from lots of rural regions. You look at a region like Appalachia, and as the jobs dry up you see the rise of a white ghetto.
Education doesn't fix that - equitable school funding is great, but it does nothing when there's no jobs in a community.
Education is a START. But, you're right about needing available jobs... that's why if government wants to help, it needs to do all it can to encourage more business activities.
Again, we should've cut taxes (especially in those small businesses category) in conjunction to any stimulus package.
There is perhaps hundreds of independant studies from multiple countries looking at the stimulus impact of different fiscal measures, and tax cuts are among the worst. Actually just giving people money works better. Hiring people to do jobs works even better.
That's why I said it needs to happen in conjunction!
The Stimulus by itself really didn't do jack.
Just cutting taxes, all by itself, typically isn't enough.
Trickle down doesn't work?
I'd say it works, but not to the extent that everyone claiming it to be... it ain't the end-all-be-all solution.
Doesn't work. It was supposed to drive up everyone's income, so much so that while the rich got most, the poor and working class also saw their total incomes rise. 30 years on the rich saw their incomes rise dramatically, but nothing trickled down to the poor and working classes.
Now, I'll qualify that by saying there's more going economically than just trickle down (manufacturing to China etc) but trickle down simply did nothing to drive up incomes among the least fortunate.
I feel like we need to come up with a better term that "Trickle Down", but that term has been butchered through out the years.
If *rich* corporations get a tax cut (loophole, or whatever benefit), and re-invest it back into the industry... that's trickling down.
If if the same corporations just used to savings to increase the stock dividends, and those folks just "bank it". Yeah, that doesn't do squat for anyone else.
But, whatever...
With a combination of free-market and sane government regulation policies.
Yes! And here we are on exactly the same page.
I guess the sticking point is on exactly what constitutes 'sane' government policies
:bro fist:
Ah... you've answered my question.
Great response... but the questions will be "by how much".
On taxes, I think you can do a lot of good just by removing the free lunch on capital gains, and using that money to reduce tax rates on middle class incomes. On minimum wage, I think $1 an hour now, to be followed with another $1 an hour next year, and from then on to be reviewed to see if another $1 an hour would impact employment too much.
I'd go for that. Totally go for that.
They're free to do that... but, in the long run, that isn't good for the US. I'd advocate that we should somehow encourage the wealthy to NOT move their money offshores. It's seems that we're in a cycle that as taxes increases for them, they're more likely to move their wealth offshores and the US loses the opportunity to have that money reinvested back into the economy.
Ultimately, they'll move offshore as long as the economics are there. Taxes don't matter when you can get kids in Vietnam to make the product for a few cents an hour. And taxes don't matter when the skilled labour you need for your engineering project lives in the USA.
Right... but, what I'm saying is that instead of being dismissive of the rich's ability to move skills/$$$ offshore, trying to create incentives/programs/magic to encourage those rich entities to keep the $$$ in the states.
On finance it's a different matter, Wall Street and Fleet Street are the centres of global trade, for historical reasons, sustained by network effects, but always subject to disappearing to some other place that offered lower taxes. But you can make special exemptions for finance (you've got quite a history of that already )
Heh... you ain't kidding.
Right... but, I don't get the sense that they're really complaining. I mean, it's been goodfor the super wealthy... right?
This thread started because a guy compared rich people like himself to Jews in Nazi Germany That's not just complaining, that's a near delusional martyr complex.
Social mobility is fine, but I believe we can do better and I've advocated that attention need to be focused on early education.
Social mobility is getting worse. As I've said before, the US used to be the absolute leading light in the world on social mobility, it used to be that you had a greater chance of 'making it' in the US than anywhere else in the world. That was something your country used to be quite rightly proud of. Now as you're getting worse other countries are getting better, and the response seems to be to pretend that it isn't really something a country should strive to improve, which is disappointing, to be honest.
Actually, social mobility rate remained largely unchanged:
The most recent evidence suggests that mobility hasn’t worsened. A team of economists led by Harvard’s Raj Chetty released a study last week that found the United States isn’t any less socially mobile than it was in the 1970s. Looking at children born between 1971 and 1993, the economists found that the odds of a child born in the poorest 20 percent of families making it into the top 20 percent hasn’t changed.
I'm sure whembly or someone will jump in and chew me out, but I feel like part (not all) of the problem is the doing away with of unions.
They've been on the decline for several decades, and in that time much of the wealth that has been created in the economy isn't going to the workers, or even to R&D that much, but rather is being captured by the CEOs and other high officers.
I wouldn't be surprised if at some point there is a push back towards greater unionization.
Now admittedly, many unions overstepped their bounds and became bullies, and would sometimes seek to keep completely unnecessary jobs but on the whole, unions performed a very positive function.
They always make me laugh. They're so hard done too, poor little rich folks.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25950761 Mr May, 35, Mr James, 23, and Mr Chan, 31, all of no fixed address, allegedly took tomatoes, mushrooms, cheese and Mr Kipling cakes from bins behind the store.
They were expected to say they had been "skipping" - a term used for taking food from a bin or skip that would otherwise go to waste.
Crown have discontinued the case of our three clients- accused under the pre-Victorian Vagrancy Act of being in an enclosed premises.
"They planned to plead not guilty, arguing that they were not acting dishonestly - a defence we felt confident the court would agree with at this time of austerity, food banks, food waste and profligacy by supermarkets."
Mr Schwarz criticised the CPS for coming to a decision "so late... in the light of media exposure".
Earlier, Iceland issued a statement to say its staff did not call the police and the store had been trying to find out why the CPS believed it was in the public interest to pursue a case.
The supermarket said: "The store in question is next door to a police station. Iceland staff did not call the police, who attended on their own initiative.
DogofWar1 wrote: I'm sure whembly or someone will jump in and chew me out, but I feel like part (not all) of the problem is the doing away with of unions.
They've been on the decline for several decades, and in that time much of the wealth that has been created in the economy isn't going to the workers, or even to R&D that much, but rather is being captured by the CEOs and other high officers.
I wouldn't be surprised if at some point there is a push back towards greater unionization.
Now admittedly, many unions overstepped their bounds and became bullies, and would sometimes seek to keep completely unnecessary jobs but on the whole, unions performed a very positive function.
Depends on which unions.
Private sector union shops... there's a need for those in some industries. Some can overplay their hands like that bakery union for twinkies last year.
However, Public Sector Unions are frankly ridiculous.... collective bargaining against the states?
DogofWar1 wrote: I'm sure whembly or someone will jump in and chew me out, but I feel like part (not all) of the problem is the doing away with of unions.
They've been on the decline for several decades, and in that time much of the wealth that has been created in the economy isn't going to the workers, or even to R&D that much, but rather is being captured by the CEOs and other high officers.
I wouldn't be surprised if at some point there is a push back towards greater unionization.
Now admittedly, many unions overstepped their bounds and became bullies, and would sometimes seek to keep completely unnecessary jobs but on the whole, unions performed a very positive function.
It's not the CEOs or management laying claim to the wealth of the economy, it's the shareholders. Management is simply co-opted by reward structures to only think of shareholder value above all else. The balance of power between business owners and their employees has shifted dramatically in favor of the former in the last three decades.
It's true that unions could help to shift the balance of power on the labor market more towards employees with collective bargaining agreements, however even in other western countries with a stronger union tradition their power base has corroded due to globalization and ICT and we see a similar decline of the middle class. These days many corporations, particularly multinationals, can simply threaten to move facilities (across borders) should employees demand too high a wage for their liking. Unless unions are able to organize on a larger scale than ever before, I doubt they can do very much.
Private sector union shops... there's a need for those in some industries. Some can overplay their hands like that bakery union for twinkies last year.
However, Public Sector Unions are frankly ridiculous.... collective bargaining against the states?
Public Sector Unions are definitely in a different situation than private corporation unions, since it's not a matter of recapturing profit for employees benefit due to states not generally making profits on anything, but not all of them are bad.
Teachers unions, for example, are crucial. Teachers don't get a lot of pay as it is, and schools in many districts aren't maintained well enough, and yet tend education always seems to be on the chopping block pretty early in the process when budgets need to be slashed. Some unions in the public sector can serve to ensure that state funds are directed away from important things like education to pet projects. Of course, which parts of the public sector are deserving of unions is tough to determine exactly.
LordofHats wrote: Not to mention that over the years its become increasingly evident that many CEO's earning big bucks, aren't that uniquely skilled compred to other people.
There are some pretty illustrative numbers showing how CEO salaries and benefits packages break down vs the employees of their companies. In the U.S., on average a CEO of a publicly traded company makes 350 times the average salary and compensation of an employee, a number that has been on a continuous climb for almost three decades. Go the UK, and it's about 85x and has stayed at about that for 20 years. Canada, 206. In Japan, home to some of the largest electronics juggernauts in the world, that ratio is 84. I work for a Japanese company that turned in $9,000,000 in pure profit on its financial report last year, and our CEO makes 21 times what I do (I make a little under $50K a year). The problem in the U.S. is that big businesses have becoming amazingly mobile, amazingly incestuous, with boards of directors who happily scratch the CEO's back by approving his salary and benefits packages, because a few years back, when they were a CEO of another company, he did for them, and a few years hence, when they're in the big chair somewhere else, he'll do so again, compensation packages going up and up and up. Hank McKinnell ran Pfizer from 2001 - 2006, the company's value falling by more than $140 billion during that time, and when he quit ('resigned'), his severance package was worth more $200 million. Compare that to what kind of cushion people at Pfizer who lost their job through no fault of their own got. While not everyone gets that amazingly cushy a deal for fething up, the trend has not changed in any way. The guys at the top are getting better and better deals, while the ones at the bottom are squeezed harder and harder.
BaronIveagh wrote: I have an acquaintance who makes sufficient income that he has an apartment on Broadway, overlooking Riverside park and Grant's tomb. He has another one in London. and another in Frankfurt. I've seen his spending habits. His million a year do not trickle far. He drives a normal car. He drinks Hennesy. He does not eat cavier, though I will say his collection of Civil War antiques is small but top notch (having helped him assemble it). He did spend some money recently marrying the head of one of his European fan clubs.
But the truth is that most of his money is stored in off shore accounts. Meaning his money leaves the US and does not contribute in any meaningful way to the US economy.
I'm actually quite disappointed in this thread, because people seem to have gotten distracted by, what the rich should be contributing to society, and how wealthy someone deserves to be, and none of those are the point. The single dumbest statement I have heard in relation to this editorial is, 'I've got one vote, he's got one vote. It's fair.'
Because they don't just have one vote, they have the ears of the people those votes go to, and they're using it to shape the whole country to their advantage. The issue is not, 'they have a lot of money and that's unfair, because I want more money too.' It's that, 'they have lots of money, and are using it to make more money in ways that directly make it harder for me to do the same, and undercutting what little safety nets there for people like me.' The Koch brothers have what is just about the single largest concentration of wealth on the planet between them, and they and people like them are using a huge chunk of it to pursue an agenda for half of the political leadership in this country that will benefit them and people like them, at the detriment of everyone else who isn't like them. Across the country, company profits are soaring to record breaking levels, all that money being channeled up to the guys on top, a record low being sent down to the employees on the bottom, and those top guys are still trying to wring out more for themselves.
That whole safety net thing is kind of a big sore point to me, because it's the guys who have never and will never need one who keep deciding to shrink the one that the people who do. There's a large town near where I grew up in New York state that I read about a while back whose primary employer, a textile mill, closed. One way or another probably one third of the people there worked for it, and so there was no way for for the job market to absorb that many people... ever. The ones who weren't blue collar workers mostly managed to find new jobs, move away, and move on, but for a lot of them the final years were no raises, cuts to benefits, that when they lost their jobs, they didn't have the resources to move away. When there are so many people out of work that you literally have to drive two hours to find a place that's hiring, you've got a family to feed, and no savings in the banks, you need that safety net so you can get your feet under your and recoup. There is a scary, fething pathological fear in the U.S. that someone, somewhere, may be getting more than they 'deserve,' and that justifies literally screwing a million people out of help they need, just to make sure that one guy that someone on facebook said they saw, 'buy steak with foodstamps, STEAK! (and maybe he crimped and saved all month so that he could afford to give his wife a steak dinner for their wedding anniversary, feth you.) doesn't get to do that ever again.
LordofHats wrote: Not to mention that over the years its become increasingly evident that many CEO's earning big bucks, aren't that uniquely skilled compred to other people.
There are some pretty illustrative numbers showing how CEO salaries and benefits packages break down vs the employees of their companies. In the U.S., on average a CEO of a publicly traded company makes 350 times the average salary and compensation of an employee, a number that has been on a continuous climb for almost three decades. Go the UK, and it's about 85x and has stayed at about that for 20 years. Canada, 206. In Japan, home to some of the largest electronics juggernauts in the world, that ratio is 84. I work for a Japanese company that turned in $9,000,000 in pure profit on its financial report last year, and our CEO makes 21 times what I do (I make a little under $50K a year). The problem in the U.S. is that big businesses have becoming amazingly mobile, amazingly incestuous, with boards of directors who happily scratch the CEO's back by approving his salary and benefits packages, because a few years back, when they were a CEO of another company, he did for them, and a few years hence, when they're in the big chair somewhere else, he'll do so again, compensation packages going up and up and up. Hank McKinnell ran Pfizer from 2001 - 2006, the company's value falling by more than $140 billion during that time, and when he quit ('resigned'), his severance package was worth more $200 million. Compare that to what kind of cushion people at Pfizer who lost their job through no fault of their own got. While not everyone gets that amazingly cushy a deal for fething up, the trend has not changed in any way. The guys at the top are getting better and better deals, while the ones at the bottom are squeezed harder and harder.
BaronIveagh wrote: I have an acquaintance who makes sufficient income that he has an apartment on Broadway, overlooking Riverside park and Grant's tomb. He has another one in London. and another in Frankfurt. I've seen his spending habits. His million a year do not trickle far. He drives a normal car. He drinks Hennesy. He does not eat cavier, though I will say his collection of Civil War antiques is small but top notch (having helped him assemble it). He did spend some money recently marrying the head of one of his European fan clubs.
But the truth is that most of his money is stored in off shore accounts. Meaning his money leaves the US and does not contribute in any meaningful way to the US economy.
I'm actually quite disappointed in this thread, because people seem to have gotten distracted by, what the rich should be contributing to society, and how wealthy someone deserves to be, and none of those are the point. The single dumbest statement I have heard in relation to this editorial is, 'I've got one vote, he's got one vote. It's fair.'
Because they don't just have one vote, they have the ears of the people those votes go to, and they're using it to shape the whole country to their advantage. The issue is not, 'they have a lot of money and that's unfair, because I want more money too.' It's that, 'they have lots of money, and are using it to make more money in ways that directly make it harder for me to do the same, and undercutting what little safety nets there for people like me.' The Koch brothers have what is just about the single largest concentration of wealth on the planet between them, and they and people like them are using a huge chunk of it to pursue an agenda for half of the political leadership in this country that will benefit them and people like them, at the detriment of everyone else who isn't like them. Across the country, company profits are soaring to record breaking levels, all that money being channeled up to the guys on top, a record low being sent down to the employees on the bottom, and those top guys are still trying to wring out more for themselves.
That whole safety net thing is kind of a big sore point to me, because it's the guys who have never and will never need one who keep deciding to shrink the one that the people who do. There's a large town near where I grew up in New York state that I read about a while back whose primary employer, a textile mill, closed. One way or another probably one third of the people there worked for it, and so there was no way for for the job market to absorb that many people... ever. The ones who weren't blue collar workers mostly managed to find new jobs, move away, and move on, but for a lot of them the final years were no raises, cuts to benefits, that when they lost their jobs, they didn't have the resources to move away. When there are so many people out of work that you literally have to drive two hours to find a place that's hiring, you've got a family to feed, and no savings in the banks, you need that safety net so you can get your feet under your and recoup. There is a scary, fething pathological fear in the U.S. that someone, somewhere, may be getting more than they 'deserve,' and that justifies literally screwing a million people out of help they need, just to make sure that one guy that someone on facebook said they saw, 'buy steak with foodstamps, STEAK! (and maybe he crimped and saved all month so that he could afford to give his wife a steak dinner for their wedding anniversary, feth you.) doesn't get to do that ever again.
LordofHats wrote: Not to mention that over the years its become increasingly evident that many CEO's earning big bucks, aren't that uniquely skilled compred to other people.
There are some pretty illustrative numbers showing how CEO salaries and benefits packages break down vs the employees of their companies. In the U.S., on average a CEO of a publicly traded company makes 350 times the average salary and compensation of an employee, a number that has been on a continuous climb for almost three decades. Go the UK, and it's about 85x and has stayed at about that for 20 years. Canada, 206. In Japan, home to some of the largest electronics juggernauts in the world, that ratio is 84. I work for a Japanese company that turned in $9,000,000 in pure profit on its financial report last year, and our CEO makes 21 times what I do (I make a little under $50K a year). The problem in the U.S. is that big businesses have becoming amazingly mobile, amazingly incestuous, with boards of directors who happily scratch the CEO's back by approving his salary and benefits packages, because a few years back, when they were a CEO of another company, he did for them, and a few years hence, when they're in the big chair somewhere else, he'll do so again, compensation packages going up and up and up. Hank McKinnell ran Pfizer from 2001 - 2006, the company's value falling by more than $140 billion during that time, and when he quit ('resigned'), his severance package was worth more $200 million. Compare that to what kind of cushion people at Pfizer who lost their job through no fault of their own got. While not everyone gets that amazingly cushy a deal for fething up, the trend has not changed in any way. The guys at the top are getting better and better deals, while the ones at the bottom are squeezed harder and harder.
BaronIveagh wrote: I have an acquaintance who makes sufficient income that he has an apartment on Broadway, overlooking Riverside park and Grant's tomb. He has another one in London. and another in Frankfurt. I've seen his spending habits. His million a year do not trickle far. He drives a normal car. He drinks Hennesy. He does not eat cavier, though I will say his collection of Civil War antiques is small but top notch (having helped him assemble it). He did spend some money recently marrying the head of one of his European fan clubs.
But the truth is that most of his money is stored in off shore accounts. Meaning his money leaves the US and does not contribute in any meaningful way to the US economy.
I'm actually quite disappointed in this thread, because people seem to have gotten distracted by, what the rich should be contributing to society, and how wealthy someone deserves to be, and none of those are the point. The single dumbest statement I have heard in relation to this editorial is, 'I've got one vote, he's got one vote. It's fair.'
Because they don't just have one vote, they have the ears of the people those votes go to, and they're using it to shape the whole country to their advantage. The issue is not, 'they have a lot of money and that's unfair, because I want more money too.' It's that, 'they have lots of money, and are using it to make more money in ways that directly make it harder for me to do the same, and undercutting what little safety nets there for people like me.' The Koch brothers have what is just about the single largest concentration of wealth on the planet between them, and they and people like them are using a huge chunk of it to pursue an agenda for half of the political leadership in this country that will benefit them and people like them, at the detriment of everyone else who isn't like them. Across the country, company profits are soaring to record breaking levels, all that money being channeled up to the guys on top, a record low being sent down to the employees on the bottom, and those top guys are still trying to wring out more for themselves.
That whole safety net thing is kind of a big sore point to me, because it's the guys who have never and will never need one who keep deciding to shrink the one that the people who do. There's a large town near where I grew up in New York state that I read about a while back whose primary employer, a textile mill, closed. One way or another probably one third of the people there worked for it, and so there was no way for for the job market to absorb that many people... ever. The ones who weren't blue collar workers mostly managed to find new jobs, move away, and move on, but for a lot of them the final years were no raises, cuts to benefits, that when they lost their jobs, they didn't have the resources to move away. When there are so many people out of work that you literally have to drive two hours to find a place that's hiring, you've got a family to feed, and no savings in the banks, you need that safety net so you can get your feet under your and recoup. There is a scary, fething pathological fear in the U.S. that someone, somewhere, may be getting more than they 'deserve,' and that justifies literally screwing a million people out of help they need, just to make sure that one guy that someone on facebook said they saw, 'buy steak with foodstamps, STEAK! (and maybe he crimped and saved all month so that he could afford to give his wife a steak dinner for their wedding anniversary, feth you.) doesn't get to do that ever again.
DogofWar1 wrote: I'm sure whembly or someone will jump in and chew me out, but I feel like part (not all) of the problem is the doing away with of unions.
They've been on the decline for several decades, and in that time much of the wealth that has been created in the economy isn't going to the workers, or even to R&D that much, but rather is being captured by the CEOs and other high officers.
I wouldn't be surprised if at some point there is a push back towards greater unionization.
Now admittedly, many unions overstepped their bounds and became bullies, and would sometimes seek to keep completely unnecessary jobs but on the whole, unions performed a very positive function.
Depends on which unions.
Private sector union shops... there's a need for those in some industries. Some can overplay their hands like that bakery union for twinkies last year.
However, Public Sector Unions are frankly ridiculous.... collective bargaining against the states?
The government is the ultimate big oppressive employer, potentially at least. They can actually pass laws against their own employees -- see Reagan versus ATC.
Collective bargaining for standardised pay scales works well in very large organisations like the civil service, so there is a utility point to it.
DogofWar1 wrote: I'm sure whembly or someone will jump in and chew me out, but I feel like part (not all) of the problem is the doing away with of unions.
They've been on the decline for several decades, and in that time much of the wealth that has been created in the economy isn't going to the workers, or even to R&D that much, but rather is being captured by the CEOs and other high officers.
I wouldn't be surprised if at some point there is a push back towards greater unionization.
Now admittedly, many unions overstepped their bounds and became bullies, and would sometimes seek to keep completely unnecessary jobs but on the whole, unions performed a very positive function.
Depends on which unions.
Private sector union shops... there's a need for those in some industries. Some can overplay their hands like that bakery union for twinkies last year.
However, Public Sector Unions are frankly ridiculous.... collective bargaining against the states?
The government is the ultimate big oppressive employer, potentially at least. They can actually pass laws against their own employees -- see Reagan versus ATC.
Collective bargaining for standardised pay scales works well in very large organisations like the civil service, so there is a utility point to it.
Collective bargaining between Unions and Private entities generally works because it's inherently adversarial.
In Public Sector Unionism... more often than not, the representatives of the union will often be on both sides of the collective bargaining table. It's by definition a relationship where conflict of interests manifest between the two entities.
On the one side, you'd have the union leaders advocating for the welfare of their members. On the other side, you'd have bought and paid for politicians by virtue of the Union's heavy campaign contributions. In a sense, Public Sector Unionism lacks the same economic justifications for Private Sector Unionism. It results in significant distortions of the political process, which ultimately have real adverse consequences for the taxpayers. (Mainly I'm talking about the "State taxpayers", as Unions in Federal Shops by law don't "collective bargain" in a traditional sense).
It's no wonder that Public Sector Union wages and benefits are breaking the back of state budgets. They are bargaining with themselves rather than with an arms’-length opponent. That's the main issue.
Now, there are many who wants to prohibit folks from forming unions in the public sector. To me, that's all kinds of wrong. I'd advocate that you allow Public Sector Unions, but prohibit then from using the collective bargain laws. That way, their free to campaign with any political candidate of their choice..
I've heard it said that the American Dream is that you work hard and get ahead, but for the quote/unquote '99%' it seems like they have to work hard just to stay in place. The options for getting ahead just aren't there.
Liberal vituperation makes our letter writer's point.
Five days on, the commentariat continues to drop anvils on Tom Perkins, who may have written the most-read letter to the editor in the history of The Wall Street Journal. The irony is that the vituperation is making our friend's point about liberal intolerance—maybe better than he did.
"I perceive a rising tide of hatred of the successful one percent," wrote the legendary venture capitalist and a founder of Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers. Mr. Perkins called it "a very dangerous drift in our American thinking. Kristallnacht was unthinkable in 1930; is its descendant 'progressive' radicalism unthinkable now?"
That comparison was unfortunate, albeit provocative. It's not always easy to be subtle in 186 words, as Mr. Perkins learned, though a useful rule of thumb is not to liken anything to Nazi Germany unless it happens to be the Stalinist Soviet Union. Amid the ongoing media furor and an ungallant rebuke from Kleiner Perkins, Mr. Perkins has apologized for the comparison, without repudiating his larger argument.
While claiming to be outraged at the Nazi reference, the critics seem more incensed that Mr. Perkins dared to question the politics of economic class warfare. The boys at Bloomberg View—we read them since no one else does—devoted an entire editorial to inequality and Mr. Perkins's "unhinged Nazi rant." Others denounced him for defending his former wife Danielle Steel, and even for owning too many Rolex watches.
Maybe the critics are afraid that Mr. Perkins is onto something about the left's political method. Consider the recent record of liberals in power. They're the ones obsessed with the Koch brothers and other billionaires contributing to conservative causes, siccing journalists to trash them and federal agencies to shut them down.
President Obama's IRS targeted conservative political groups for scrutiny in an election year and has now formalized that scrutiny in new regulatory "guidance" for this election year. Democratic prosecutors in Wisconsin unleashed a special prosecutor to target conservative groups allied with Governor Scott Walker. A judge threw out the subpoenas as baseless but only after months of legal harassment and dawn police raids.
Or take New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, who said in a recent radio interview that, "If they are extreme conservatives, they have no place in the state of New York." He said he meant people who oppose gay marriage or abortion, or favor legal assault weapons. He didn't say they were wrong. He said get out of the state.
New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio then chimed in to say Mr. Cuomo was "absolutely right," throwing in a riff about "crippling inequality" for no extra charge. Like Mr. de Blasio, Mr. Obama doesn't merely want to raise taxes on the rich to finance the government. He says "millionaires and billionaires" simply make too much money and deserve to be punished. Or as they say at the New York Times, NYT +0.84% they are "the undeserving rich." By the way, does that include the third-generation rentiers in the Sulzberger family?
The liberals aren't encouraging violence, but they are promoting personal vilification and the abuse of government power to punish political opponents.
In lieu of another quote pile-up, I'll just say Bookwreck's post was great.
Something I'd like to see, which wouldn't really do anything other than send a message, is that every time a proposed cut to the public safety net (food stamps, welfare, etc.) is put forth, a similar cap/cut is placed on private golden parachutes and payments. If they want to create higher requirements for Joe Schmoe (who has spent the past six months frantically looking for a job without success) to get welfare, then we should institute those requirements for CEOs and Presidents (can you imagine how hilarious it would be if we required drug tests before CEOs could get their golden parachutes?)
I like the idea that the poor are declaring class warfare on the rich. It's like the US declaring war on Japan after Pearl Harbor. The rich have been waging and winning a class war against the middle class and poor for the last 30 years.
Seriously the balls on these guys, how do they even walk?
Liberal vituperation makes our letter writer's point.
Five days on, the commentariat continues to drop anvils on Tom Perkins, who may have written the most-read letter to the editor in the history of The Wall Street Journal. The irony is that the vituperation is making our friend's point about liberal intolerance—maybe better than he did.
"I perceive a rising tide of hatred of the successful one percent," wrote the legendary venture capitalist and a founder of Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers. Mr. Perkins called it "a very dangerous drift in our American thinking. Kristallnacht was unthinkable in 1930; is its descendant 'progressive' radicalism unthinkable now?"
That comparison was unfortunate, albeit provocative. It's not always easy to be subtle in 186 words, as Mr. Perkins learned, though a useful rule of thumb is not to liken anything to Nazi Germany unless it happens to be the Stalinist Soviet Union. Amid the ongoing media furor and an ungallant rebuke from Kleiner Perkins, Mr. Perkins has apologized for the comparison, without repudiating his larger argument.
While claiming to be outraged at the Nazi reference, the critics seem more incensed that Mr. Perkins dared to question the politics of economic class warfare. The boys at Bloomberg View—we read them since no one else does—devoted an entire editorial to inequality and Mr. Perkins's "unhinged Nazi rant." Others denounced him for defending his former wife Danielle Steel, and even for owning too many Rolex watches.
It IS an utterly unhinged failure to stay in touch with reality to look at all these people saying, "wait, maybe something IS wrong with this picture," and liken it to an attempt at genocide. No matter what his cheerleaders say, I can't give him any sympathy with respect to his argument until people force him to wear a gold star and start trying to put him in an oven.
Maybe the critics are afraid that Mr. Perkins is onto something about the left's political method. Consider the recent record of liberals in power. They're the ones obsessed with the Koch brothers and other billionaires contributing to conservative causes, siccing journalists to trash them and federal agencies to shut them down.
This has nothing to do with the Nazis, or Perkins' argument. And the reason why people hate the Koch brothers is because they turned science into a political battlefield. Politics has no business in discovering facts.
President Obama's IRS targeted conservative political groups for scrutiny in an election year and has now formalized that scrutiny in new regulatory "guidance" for this election year. Democratic prosecutors in Wisconsin unleashed a special prosecutor to target conservative groups allied with Governor Scott Walker. A judge threw out the subpoenas as baseless but only after months of legal harassment and dawn police raids.
Or take New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, who said in a recent radio interview that, "If they are extreme conservatives, they have no place in the state of New York." He said he meant people who oppose gay marriage or abortion, or favor legal assault weapons. He didn't say they were wrong. He said get out of the state.
What does this have to do with the premise of the article? Are we talking about how bad the wealth equality argument is, or are we bashing liberals for their moral views?
New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio then chimed in to say Mr. Cuomo was "absolutely right," throwing in a riff about "crippling inequality" for no extra charge. Like Mr. de Blasio, Mr. Obama doesn't merely want to raise taxes on the rich to finance the government. He says "millionaires and billionaires" simply make too much money and deserve to be punished. Or as they say at the New York Times, NYT +0.84% they are "the undeserving rich." By the way, does that include the third-generation rentiers in the Sulzberger family?
Billionaires do simply make too much money? Is it punishment to level it out? Not unless your conscience is guilty. That so few people exist with almost royal levels of power and influence is dangerous and inherently oppressive.
The liberals aren't encouraging violence, but they are promoting personal vilification and the abuse of government power to punish political opponents.
Just like the guys on the other side of the fence do. There is not a political group in existence in the US that is not guilty of this.
DogofWar1 wrote: In lieu of another quote pile-up, I'll just say Bookwreck's post was great.
Something I'd like to see, which wouldn't really do anything other than send a message, is that every time a proposed cut to the public safety net (food stamps, welfare, etc.) is put forth, a similar cap/cut is placed on private golden parachutes and payments. If they want to create higher requirements for Joe Schmoe (who has spent the past six months frantically looking for a job without success) to get welfare, then we should institute those requirements for CEOs and Presidents (can you imagine how hilarious it would be if we required drug tests before CEOs could get their golden parachutes?)
whembly wrote: O.o Okay... I thought we were discussing that too.
We were discussing both, but that particular bit of conversation was on that one issue. It's a minor thing, anyway, so moving on
Of course... like I said previously, it's not perfect and should be addressed somehow.
It's just that different groups have different ideas on how to address these issues.
Yep, that's the rub.
How do you achieve this?
Equal chance doesn't mean that everyone is equipped to achieve things in the same way. That's impossible. Equal chance just means the opportunity is there for everyone.
Yes, that means some individuals will have an easier/harder time to reach for that opportunity, but that's life.
Sure, but on realising that no system will have absolute equality of opportunity, the answer isn't to simply give up on it. The answer is to ensure as much equality of opportunity as possible, and there are a lot of achievable things that can give a lot of kids much closer to an equal share of opportunity. Just having a decent minimum wage will mean millions of kids grow up in households where the parents are not impoverished, and are actually home with their kids for a reasonable number of hours every week.
Eh... good point. I'm just worried that there are structural problems with the economy and government actions such that any tweaks would be steamrolled.
The issue is primarily with structual parts of the economy. The unknown, I think, is how powerful those structural components are, and how many are permanent (some elements may already be reversing, see the on-shoring trend). Without knowing that, it's hard to know how much of the problem can be resolved with tweaks, and how much needs a more foundational response.
The problem is once all that is known it's probably too late
Yeah... be the devil is in the details, eh?
Very true,
Sorry... that is a bit harsh.
Don't ever apologise about being a little harsh towards me. I've been downright rude on points far more minor than that
Education is a START. But, you're right about needing available jobs... that's why if government wants to help, it needs to do all it can to encourage more business activities.
Encourage business, and also think seriously about helping to facilitate the depopulation of areas which simply don't have the economic base to sustain their current populations. Offer incentives such as retraining on condition that people are willing to move to areas with jobs, that kind of thing.
The Stimulus by itself really didn't do jack.
A wide number of economic reports disagree with you. Stimulus prevented a much greater collapse in aggregate demand.
I feel like we need to come up with a better term that "Trickle Down", but that term has been butchered through out the years.
If *rich* corporations get a tax cut (loophole, or whatever benefit), and re-invest it back into the industry... that's trickling down.
If if the same corporations just used to savings to increase the stock dividends, and those folks just "bank it". Yeah, that doesn't do squat for anyone else.
Yeah, but you can't pick and choose which choices you want to own and which you don't. The idea of 'trickle down' is that some money will be banked, while other money will be re-invested, and the overall impact is a raise in everyone's standard of living.
But the bigger problem with the theory is with the assumption that suprlus money means more investment. The problem with that is that since the development of global capital markets, there's never been a shortage of investment funds. If you a company had a viable investment opportunity, a lack of funds out there in the market has never held it back. What stops investment is the lack of viable business opportunities.
I'd go for that. Totally go for that.
Then elect me president! Sure I might be Australian, but I have it on good authority that Obama was Kenyan and it didn't stop him winning two terms.
Right... but, what I'm saying is that instead of being dismissive of the rich's ability to move skills/$$$ offshore, trying to create incentives/programs/magic to encourage those rich entities to keep the $$$ in the states.
Unfortunately that pretty much comes down to wage parity. If wages are much cheaper elsewhere in the world, then low skilled jobs will move there. What countries have tried to do to limit that effect is make as much of the economy as high skilled as possible, but that has serious marginal returns, as we're witnessing now with the generation of dumbasses being pushed through college.
The other option is to basically wait until wages increase in those countries, to the point where relative wages equal relative productivity. That is already starting to happen to some extent, with a number of companies returning to home production, as the wage difference between the US and China has narrowed to the point where the US becomes a preferred place of manufacturing again.
Actually, social mobility rate remained largely unchanged:
The most recent evidence suggests that mobility hasn’t worsened. A team of economists led by Harvard’s Raj Chetty released a study last week that found the United States isn’t any less socially mobile than it was in the 1970s. Looking at children born between 1971 and 1993, the economists found that the odds of a child born in the poorest 20 percent of families making it into the top 20 percent hasn’t changed.
But it's a really important point to recognise, as it leads to the conclusion that the problem isn't with unions, but with the specific culture of some unions. Well, the problem with many unions.
Because in many places around the world, unions have worked at developing constructive, positive relationships with industry, working together to improve productivity and worker's wages. Unfortunately too many unions remained stuck in early 20th century thinking, always looking to fight management and threaten strike action, and not helping their workers at all.
The answer, ultimately, isn't no unions, but better unions. The issue is that if we don't get better unions, then we will end up with no unions at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
whembly wrote: Do you know for a fact that Japan's Union laws are similar to the US?
I'm sure there's a number of legal differences, but I'd be surprised if the primary difference wasn't cultural.
Kilkrazy wrote: Japan's car manufacturing unions don't have an adversarial relationship with the management.
That's in Japan.
Big difference to US' Union shops.
It proves, though, that relations between management and workforce inherently are not confrontational.
Do you know for a fact that Japan's Union laws are similar to the US?
No, but that's not relevant to the point.
A country can change its laws if they lead to undesirable confrontation.
I agree with Sebster that the key difference is most likely cultural. One of the cultural differences between the USA and Japan is that Japanese bosses are far less removed from the front line workforce.
Is it this genuinely difficult to understand that "wealth" is not a zero-sum game? The "rich" aren't rich because they took their loot from the poor. The poor, the middle-class, and other rich people generally give it to them willingly, because they own or run a business that provides goods or services that they want to buy.
No one forces you to shop. No one forces you to use cable TV, the internet, have a smart-phone, or wear designer brands. You can work and hold onto as much of your money as you like. It really is that simple.
The American dream is alive and well. My two current employers both developed useful IP, worked to make that IP move valuable, and then licensed out their technology . They both went from middle-class to comfortable upper-class in the spans of 7 and 10 years respectively. There is nothing "special" about either of them. Other than they put in long hours, scrimped and saved and poured their money back into their businesses, and they surrounded themselves with good people.
You want to be rich, or even just slightly better off, get off your asses and WORK. Stop making excuses for all of the bad decisions you've made in life, and find a way to make yourself move valuable to a company, and then get to it. As soon as you fall into the trap of blaming anyone else for your station in life, you have basically opted out of the game, and you will go NOWHERE, until you change your attitude.
Filthy Sanchez wrote: Is it this genuinely difficult to understand that "wealth" is not a zero-sum game? The "rich" aren't rich because they took their loot from the poor. The poor, the middle-class, and other rich people generally give it to them willingly, because they own or run a business that provides goods or services that they want to buy.
No one forces you to shop. No one forces you to use cable TV, the internet, have a smart-phone, or wear designer brands. You can work and hold onto as much of your money as you like. It really is that simple.
The American dream is alive and well. My two current employers both developed useful IP, worked to make that IP move valuable, and then licensed out their technology . They both went from middle-class to comfortable upper-class in the spans of 7 and 10 years respectively. There is nothing "special" about either of them. Other than they put in long hours, scrimped and saved and poured their money back into their businesses, and they surrounded themselves with good people.
You want to be rich, or even just slightly better off, get off your asses and WORK. Stop making excuses for all of the bad decisions you've made in life, and find a way to make yourself move valuable to a company, and then get to it. As soon as you fall into the trap of blaming anyone else for your station in life, you have basically opted out of the game, and you will go NOWHERE, until you change your attitude.
If it is not a zero-sum game, why have the richest 1% got very substantially richer while the poorest 20% have seen their incomes practically static while working harder and harder?
Filthy Sanchez wrote: Is it this genuinely difficult to understand that "wealth" is not a zero-sum game? The "rich" aren't rich because they took their loot from the poor. The poor, the middle-class, and other rich people generally give it to them willingly, because they own or run a business that provides goods or services that they want to buy.
Situation: Prices on goods and services increase due to inflation. Wages for the grunt workers actually moving said goods and services don't increase. People on top have their net worth exponentially increase as a graph over many years.
No one forces you to shop. No one forces you to use cable TV, the internet, have a smart-phone, or wear designer brands. You can work and hold onto as much of your money as you like. It really is that simple.
Wow. You figured it out. The poor are just poor because they buy things only the rich man should have, and for literally zero other reasons. Why did we not see this sooner?
The American dream is alive and well. My two current employers both developed useful IP, worked to make that IP move valuable, and then licensed out their technology . They both went from middle-class to comfortable upper-class in the spans of 7 and 10 years respectively. There is nothing "special" about either of them. Other than they put in long hours, scrimped and saved and poured their money back into their businesses, and they surrounded themselves with good people.
"These anecdotes I know who already had a healthy financial background and were educated did it, so anyone should be able to."
You want to be rich, or even just slightly better off, get off your asses and WORK. Stop making excuses for all of the bad decisions you've made in life, and find a way to make yourself move valuable to a company, and then get to it. As soon as you fall into the trap of blaming anyone else for your station in life, you have basically opted out of the game, and you will go NOWHERE, until you change your attitude.
Stop making excuses for all of the bad decisions you've made in life
So your answer to the question "Why do 85 people have more money than 3.2 Billion other people" is that the "3.2 Billion didn't work hard enough?"
There are much better answers to that question. Work only gets you so far. Being lucky helps a lot more.
And inheriting wealth helps even more. If you look at the CEO's of major companies, the people in well paying high powered jobs, the people who run even medium sized businesses almost all of them come from comfortable backgrounds where they had a safety net to fall back on. They could take risks, or pay for expensive schooling. This is not hard work, this is wealth buying more wealth. The easiest place to see it is in the media industry. Look up any famous singer, TV personality, director or actor and 99% of them had one or both parents in a related area.
In the case of CEOs and industry it is will known the problems. Upper middle class families in the US and the UK buy there kids internships and can pay for them to work for free for 1-2 years. This then gives them access to the best jobs. Something no working class family can afford.
Also, what state school gives lessons on interviews? This gives the rich another edge. Want to be an accountant or business professional? If you want the high paying jobs you had better get on a graduate program. Fail that interview after leaving university and the top jobs are all but closed to you.
It really is not as simple as "Work harder" or "bad decisions" but opportunities available are not equal.
Stop making excuses for all of the bad decisions you've made in life
So your answer to the question "Why do 85 people have more money than 3.2 Billion other people" is that the "3.2 Billion didn't work hard enough?"
There are much better answers to that question. Work only gets you so far. Being lucky helps a lot more.
Arguably, being born into a middle or upper class household helps even more. I understand it to be hard to focus on educating yourself when you worry about getting stabbed at school and you suffer from vitamin deficiency from not eating fresh fruit or vegetables. Perhaps there is some nutritional content to be had in your bootstraps. You could likely boil them, perhaps with some salt and pepper.
No one forces you to shop. No one forces you to use cable TV, the internet, have a smart-phone, or wear designer brands. You can work and hold onto as much of your money as you like. It really is that simple.
Do you even know what poor is? Like really truly poor? Not by the looks of that list.
I love it. Thank you for the comments. I am indeed, an upper-middle class white man.
But I started out poor as gak in a Brooklyn, NY ghetto. Single mom who was always working to put food on the table for her three kids. My brother, my sister, and I came home to an empty apartment every day. We got IOU's from Santa on Christmas. Don't tell me I don't know the plight of the "have-not." I lived it.
I got my first job when I was 12, delivering newspapers. I did that, and worked as a dishwasher in a restaurant until I was 17. Then I joined the Navy, and worked on a sub for 6 years learning a trade. When I got out, I used the GI bill to pay for a B.S. degree. When I graduated, I got a M.S. degree. I'm now going back and getting an MBA.
I work anywhere from 40-70 hours a week, every week, and have since I got out of the Navy. I worked two jobs WHILE going to college for all of my degrees. I have two jobs today.
You'll notice the total lack of luck in any of the above. It's called HARD WORK. I am not rich, but I am far from the poor I grew up as.
The last thing I will ever do is begrudge another man his success, regardless of how he got it. If you want yours, go out and get it. And yes, bootstraps. Big-boy pants, a willingness to get back up as many times as necessary, and a desire to succeed that is comparable to your desire to breathe.
Or fall by the wayside and bitch about how your life sucks, and "the man" is keeping you down. You won't be missed.
No one forces you to shop. No one forces you to use cable TV, the internet, have a smart-phone, or wear designer brands. You can work and hold onto as much of your money as you like. It really is that simple.
Do you even know what poor is? Like really truly poor? Not by the looks of that list.
I think you misattributed that quote. That wasn't me.
Filthy Sanchez wrote: I love it. Thank you for the comments. I am indeed, an upper-middle class white man..
Bookwrack, in an amazing example of either clairvoyance simply being a sneaky time traveler, has already completely demolished everything in both your posts.
Filthy Sanchez wrote: I love it. Thank you for the comments. I am indeed, an upper-middle class white man.
Actually, I was referring to myself. That's why I signed it such, rather than addressing it as such. I am an upper middle class white man who has the humility to realize that he's not where he is all because he's a better person than everyone else.
But I started out poor as gak in a Brooklyn, NY ghetto. Single mom who was always working to put food on the table for her three kids. My brother, my sister, and I came home to an empty apartment every day. We got IOU's from Santa on Christmas. Don't tell me I don't know the plight of the "have-not." I lived it.
I got my first job when I was 12, delivering newspapers. I did that, and worked as a dishwasher in a restaurant until I was 17. Then I joined the Navy, and worked on a sub for 6 years learning a trade. When I got out, I used the GI bill to pay for a B.S. degree. When I graduated, I got a M.S. degree. I'm now going back and getting an MBA.
So you received government assistance in getting a degree.
I work anywhere from 40-70 hours a week, every week, and have since I got out of the Navy. I worked two jobs WHILE going to college for all of my degrees. I have two jobs today.
You'll notice the total lack of luck in any of the above. It's called HARD WORK. I am not rich, but I am far from the poor I grew up as.
I'm concerned that your sense of work-life balance might be off. I've seen people like that, and they tend to suffer later in life from all the stress. I put in the occasional weekend or late night, but I'm more than comfortable at 40 hours a week. Perhaps if you could curb your spending a little, you wouldn't need to work so many hours?
The last thing I will ever do is begrudge another man his success, regardless of how he got it. If you want yours, go out and get it. And yes, bootstraps. Big-boy pants, a willingness to get back up as many times as necessary, and a desire to succeed that is comparable to your desire to breathe.
Or fall by the wayside and bitch about how your life sucks, and "the man" is keeping you down. You won't be missed.
I have a question. Really, it's an attempt at determining whether our world views are compatible enough to even bother attempting to communicate:
Does everyone who reaps success deserve it? What if it is at the cost of another human being?
No one forces you to shop. No one forces you to use cable TV, the internet, have a smart-phone, or wear designer brands. You can work and hold onto as much of your money as you like. It really is that simple.
Do you even know what poor is? Like really truly poor? Not by the looks of that list.
I think you misattributed that quote. That wasn't me.
Sorry. I knew it wasn't you. My poor editing skills are 100% at fault. Will sort it
I work anywhere from 40-70 hours a week, every week, and have since I got out of the Navy. I worked two jobs WHILE going to college for all of my degrees. I have two jobs today.
You'll notice the total lack of luck in any of the above. It's called HARD WORK.
Ye, your hard work has got you working 70 hours a week and two jobs, with a degree, just to be getting buy ok... Hard work has really got you a long way there. I think that shows that hard work is not working for you. It sounds like I am doing much better than you. I work 37 hours a week, 9-5 and can afford most of the things I want. I'm not rich, but I am well off that I have a little house thats big enough for me, a 3 year old sports car and can pay my bills and indulge my hobbies without worrying about money too much, and I didn't work silly hours etc.
The point of my post was that I am where I am due to working for it, not because I'm exceptional, or better than anyone else. If I can do it, anyone can do it.
I worked a job for the government for less compensation than a civilian equivalent. One of the benefits I got for working that job was assistance in paying for school. So, yes?
Thank you for your concern, but it's misplaced. I'm doing just fine. I get in my share of 40K and warmahordes, and my wife and friends are far from neglected. I don't work this hard because my spending is out of alignment with my earnings. I work this hard to be able to buy the things I want, save for retirement, and donate to the groups and charities I feel represent worthy cause.
I don't feel that those who are successful, at the cost of others, deserve their success. There needs to be a very careful line drawn about who falls into that category. "The rich" is far too nebulous a term, and is used interchangeably to refer to sociopathically corrupt politicians as well as those who achieved their status through inscrutably honest means.
Take the scenario where I work hard my entire life building an immensely powerful business. I instill in my children sound morality as well as a good work ethic. They, and the generations after them, continue to grow the business ethically and honestly. Five generations later, the entire family is fantastically wealthy. What right do you, or anyone else denouncing "the rich", have to their property or their wealth? Is it really "ok" for the public to level all of the vitriol current;y aimed at "the rich", at them? Why? Making good choices over a series of generations is something people should strive for, not deride.
I work anywhere from 40-70 hours a week, every week, and have since I got out of the Navy. I worked two jobs WHILE going to college for all of my degrees. I have two jobs today.
You'll notice the total lack of luck in any of the above. It's called HARD WORK.
I guarantee you're working harder than most multimillionaires and they're amazingly being paid more than you.
Thus my point. hardwork only gets you so far and becoming super rich has much less to do with how hard or smart you work and a lot more to do with luck of draw. Also, no one should have to work 70 hours a week. Its not 1877 anymore.
The point of my post was that I am where I am due to working for it, not because I'm exceptional, or better than anyone else. If I can do it, anyone can do it.
I worked a job for the government for less compensation than a civilian equivalent. One of the benefits I got for working that job was assistance in paying for school. So, yes?
Thank you for your concern, but it's misplaced. I'm doing just fine. I get in my share of 40K and warmahordes, and my wife and friends are far from neglected. I don't work this hard because my spending is out of alignment with my earnings. I work this hard to be able to buy the things I want, save for retirement, and donate to the groups and charities I feel represent worthy cause.
I don't feel that those who are successful, at the cost of others, deserve their success. There needs to be a very careful line drawn about who falls into that category. "The rich" is far too nebulous a term, and is used interchangeably to refer to sociopathically corrupt politicians as well as those who achieved their status through inscrutably honest means.
Take the scenario where I work hard my entire life building an immensely powerful business. I instill in my children sound morality as well as a good work ethic. They, and the generations after them, continue to grow the business ethically and honestly. Five generations later, the entire family is fantastically wealthy. What right do you, or anyone else denouncing "the rich", have to their property or their wealth? Is it really "ok" for the public to level all of the vitriol current;y aimed at "the rich", at them? Why? Making good choices over a series of generations is something people should strive for, not deride.
Good post.
Completely skipping past my "is it okay to be giving so few so much power" argument for now, my only problem with what you say is that, once you have sufficient amounts of money, you no longer need hard work to make more money. You just need money to make money. It's a financial feedback loop, effectively.
There are also people who have record values of net worth who didn't slowly build up an empire from generations of hard work. The tech industry exploded, and then scattered patents like mines behind them to keep anyone from following.
I mean, if you look at http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/list/, you have to struggle to find anyone outside of the Mars', Waltons, or the Kochs who's fortune actually goes back more a generation. Hell, some of the tech industry giants don't go back 25 years. Does securing more personal wealth than the GDP of small but developed countries in the course of less than 10 years seem like a warning indicator to you?
I mean, if you look at http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/list/, you have to struggle to find anyone outside of the Mars', Waltons, or the Kochs who's fortune actually goes back more a generation. Hell, some of the tech industry giants don't go back 25 years. Does securing more personal wealth than the GDP of small but developed countries in the course of less than 10 years seem like a warning indicator to you?
Actually going to use this to illustrate my point. Its not like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or that douche who invented the abomination now known as Face Book, were somehow harder working or more brilliant than Alan Turning, Konrad Zuse, or Fredrick C Williams. If anything, those three men were vastly more intillgent than anyone in the tech industry today (it only exists because of Turning). They made more breakthroughs, did more research, and they worked their asses off and did well for themselves but they never became as affluent as those who followed them.
Did Gates and Jobs work hard? yeah, but no harder than dozens of others in history who created the science that they used to build their business'. They lived in a time and place where Microsoft and Apple could be created and that had nothing to do with either Gates of Jobs. They didn't create the world as of 1960.
I don't feel that those who are successful, at the cost of others, deserve their success.
Does this include the CEOs, Presidents, Managers, etc. who constantly raise their own salaries in a sort of Captains of Business circle-jerk while freezing wages for their workers while demanding greater productivity per worker and firing the overflow?
Real wages are barely keeping pace with inflation for the bottom 80%. Meanwhile productivity per worker has been going up consistently (aka. working hard) over the recent years. So people are working harder, and making the same amount, and that's assuming they get to keep their job, since after all, if productivity per worker increases, you need fewer workers to accomplish the total work that was needed before.
And all the while, the top 1%s salaries have skyrocketed. How? Well, they recapture the savings of the business or as much of the profit as possible, and distribute it to others at the top via salaries, dividends, etc.
So yeah, if you're in the bottom 80% you're already working really hard to just stand still. Your bootstraps are probably already all the way pulled up. But I guess if you just work EVEN HARDER, you can suddenly get off the treadmill with the ever slightly increasing incline and suddenly get on the escalator. Totally. I mean, it's so easy, everyone should just do it.
99% of those CEOs and company owners have got where they are at the cost of others. I'm not just talking about poor wages for workers in the UK and the US. Apples working practices, for example, in its factories. The abusive behaviour of Walmart and Tesco towards suppliers.
I can only think of one big business that dosn't have to many questionable working practices. John Lewis. Every staff member is a partner in the business and the CEOs salary is capped, which just goes to show companies don't have to put profit above all else.
I don't feel that those who are successful, at the cost of others, deserve their success.
So, you don't feel that you deserve your educational success given that it came at the expense of tax-payers who funded your G.I. Bill?
That wasn't given to him... he earned that.
Would someone who joined up and spent their service period peeling spuds have earned it too?
Would they have earned it more than someone who saved the world by taking out all the terrorists ever, saved the lives of a thousand brave american soldiers and negotiated world peace by waving the American flag over the smoking ruins of its enemies?
Or would you say they both did a job, got paid for that job, and then went to university because they did that job?
Filthy Sanchez wrote: What right do you, or anyone else denouncing "the rich", have to their property or their wealth? Is it really "ok" for the public to level all of the vitriol current;y aimed at "the rich", at them?
Just to play the devil's advocate, what right does anyone have to anything? In this example, it'd be the heirs who had the right to the company because we say so. We could just as easily say that they didn't have any rights to it at all. Property right is not something inherent in items, it's a social construct.
I don't feel that those who are successful, at the cost of others, deserve their success.
So, you don't feel that you deserve your educational success given that it came at the expense of tax-payers who funded your G.I. Bill?
That wasn't given to him... he earned that.
Would someone who joined up and spent their service period peeling spuds have earned it too?
Would they have earned it more than someone who saved the world by taking out all the terrorists ever, saved the lives of a thousand brave american soldiers and negotiated world peace by waving the American flag over the smoking ruins of its enemies?
Or would you say they both did a job, got paid for that job, and then went to university because they did that job?
I'm not sure I understand where you're taking with this.
But, this is not that much different than tuition assistance that some private employers offers as part of the employee's benefit package. Typically, it doesn't matter where you work in this hypothetical company, each employee get the same amount if they choose to participate.
I'm just challenging dogma's spiel that G.I. Bill is at the expense of tax-payers. Which is not accurate. He served his term in the Navy and as such, earned the benefit to use the G.I. Bill program (or whatever it's called now).
I'm just challenging dogma's spiel that G.I. Bill is at the expense of tax-payers. Which is not accurate. He served his term in the Navy and as such, earned the benefit to use the G.I. Bill program (or whatever it's called now).
Read what Dogma was replying too. His position is basically "I got where I am all on my own and no one helped me" which is a load of bull. The G.I. Bill is a public program that uses public funds. He got help.
I'm just challenging dogma's spiel that G.I. Bill is at the expense of tax-payers. Which is not accurate. He served his term in the Navy and as such, earned the benefit to use the G.I. Bill program (or whatever it's called now).
But it is at the expense of the tax payers, quite literally.
I'm just challenging dogma's spiel that G.I. Bill is at the expense of tax-payers. Which is not accurate. He served his term in the Navy and as such, earned the benefit to use the G.I. Bill program (or whatever it's called now).
Read what Dogma was replying too. His position is basically "I got where I am all on my own and no one helped me" which is a load of bull. The G.I. Bill is a public program that uses public funds. He got help.
GI Bill is only available for service men/women while serving or had served.
To me, that's part of the "benefit" packages these service men get.
That's not "help" along the same vein that you or I could get via Stafford loans for college.
I don't feel that those who are successful, at the cost of others, deserve their success.
So, you don't feel that you deserve your educational success given that it came at the expense of tax-payers who funded your G.I. Bill?
That wasn't given to him... he earned that.
I never said it was.
I disagree...
His educational success, partly from his G.I. Bill (funded by taxpayers), is one of these compensations he received from his prior service in the Navy.
So... be my guess if you want to challenge him on his bootstrappieness.
His educational success, partly from his G.I. Bill (funded by taxpayers), is one of these compensations he received from his prior service in the Navy.
So... be my guess if you want to challenge him on his bootstrappieness.
I have no doubt that he bettered his life by working hard.
I merely object to the notion that he was not assisted in doing so, that people only need to work harder in order to do the same, and that income/wealthy inequality is not problematic.
LordofHats wrote: Read what Dogma was replying too. His position is basically "I got where I am all on my own and no one helped me" which is a load of bull. The G.I. Bill is a public program that uses public funds. He got help.
I'd be perfectly fine with putting the same requirements in place to receive the 'help' of the G.I. Bill for all public assistance programs. I mean, it's help, right? It's not a trade, or a quid pro quo, or any sort of benefit package for providing services. It's just pure help.
Surely, under such circumstances, no one could argue it would be onerous to impose the same commitment requirements for welfare or Medicare.
He was lucky that he had the opportunity to "earn" his GI Bill.
If he had a medical problem he wouldn't have been able to "bootstrap" himself into getting enlisted. If we wouldn't have been fighting wars everywhere the enlistment quota could easily have been different and be wouldn't be able to bootstrap himself to enlist in a position that doesn't exist.
It's easy to ignore that success has a large "luck" factor and then pretend that you are 100% a product of your own awesomeness.
LordofHats wrote: Read what Dogma was replying too. His position is basically "I got where I am all on my own and no one helped me" which is a load of bull. The G.I. Bill is a public program that uses public funds. He got help.
I'd be perfectly fine with putting the same requirements in place to receive the 'help' of the G.I. Bill for all public assistance programs. I mean, it's help, right? It's not a trade, or a quid pro quo, or any sort of benefit package for providing services. It's just pure help.
Surely, under such circumstances, no one could argue it would be onerous to impose the same commitment requirements for welfare or Medicare.
From each according to their ability, to each according to their need?
d-usa wrote: He was lucky that he had the opportunity to "earn" his GI Bill.
If he had a medical problem he wouldn't have been able to "bootstrap" himself into getting enlisted. If we wouldn't have been fighting wars everywhere the enlistment quota could easily have been different and be wouldn't be able to bootstrap himself to enlist in a position that doesn't exist.
It's easy to ignore that success has a large "luck" factor and then pretend that you are 100% a product of your own awesomeness.
It's incredibly difficult to meet the minimum requirements to enlist, that's for sure. I mean, hell, you have to be able to run a couple miles, for Christ's sake.
d-usa wrote: He was lucky that he had the opportunity to "earn" his GI Bill.
If he had a medical problem he wouldn't have been able to "bootstrap" himself into getting enlisted. If we wouldn't have been fighting wars everywhere the enlistment quota could easily have been different and be wouldn't be able to bootstrap himself to enlist in a position that doesn't exist.
It's easy to ignore that success has a large "luck" factor and then pretend that you are 100% a product of your own awesomeness.
It's incredibly difficult to meet the minimum requirements to enlist, that's for sure. I mean, hell, you have to be able to run a couple miles, for Christ's sake.
He suggested he might not've been able to "luck" himself into a position that doesn't exist. Because recruiters are constantly turning you away in this country. I definitely didn't get called twenty times in high school during the years of Clinton's downsized military, that's for sure. I was pointing out he's right. It's incredibly tough and competitive.
I am, of course, talking pure nonsense, just to meet like with like.
He doesn't bother to argue against anything people actually type. He reads posts, creates an alternate reality based on it, then argues against the alternate reality he created in his mind.
Once you accept that his posts make a tiny bit more sense.
This is way off topic. The important point is he is saying anyone can get rich through hard work and using his getting to working 2 jobs and long hours to do ok as proof.
Surely, under such circumstances, no one could argue it would be onerous to impose the same commitment requirements for welfare or Medicare.
Are you really trying to argue that the majority of Medicare recipients have not been services to the state?
The majority? Sure, I'd be fine saying the majority. Same for welfare, Medicaid, etc.
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Steve steveson wrote: This is way off topic. The important point is he is saying anyone can get rich through hard work and using his getting to working 2 jobs and long hours to do ok as proof.
I don't think he's saying anyone can get rich through hard work.
I think he's saying that people can provide for themselves ably through a combination of hard work and good choices. The notion that all it takes is hard work has, to the best of my knowledge, never been floated. You can work as hard as any known individual, and if you keep crapping out a fresh kid every nine months and taking payday loans and prioritizing a new celly over the rent, it's not going to matter.
The majority? Sure, I'd be fine saying the majority. Same for welfare, Medicaid, etc.
So you're arguing that the elderly, who have paid taxes (Medicare and otherwise) for long periods of time and worked for just as long (improving the economy), have not been services to the state?
Your both moving the goalposts then. Wether someone can provide for themselves through hard work is a complete irrelevance to the topic of the rich and the pooling of wealth out of reach of most people.
And I don't think needing to work 2 jobs and long hours even comes under "providing ably".
What your doing now is demonising using the poor. Saying they must be poor because they are lazy or spend money on luxuries. Different argument.
Surely, under such circumstances, no one could argue it would be onerous to impose the same commitment requirements for welfare or Medicare.
Are you really trying to argue that the majority of Medicare recipients have not been services to the state?
The majority? Sure, I'd be fine saying the majority. Same for welfare, Medicaid, etc.
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Steve steveson wrote: This is way off topic. The important point is he is saying anyone can get rich through hard work and using his getting to working 2 jobs and long hours to do ok as proof.
I don't think he's saying anyone can get rich through hard work.
I think he's saying that people can provide for themselves ably through a combination of hard work and good choices. The notion that all it takes is hard work has, to the best of my knowledge, never been floated. You can work as hard as any known individual, and if you keep crapping out a fresh kid every nine months and taking payday loans and prioritizing a new celly over the rent, it's not going to matter.
What about health care or pension plans? Those have to be aids, right? Just like the GI Bill, after all, they're certainly not earned, they're given freely.
So you're arguing that the elderly, who have paid taxes (Medicare and otherwise) for long periods of time and worked for just as long (improving the economy), have not been services to the state?Ok...
Not a comparable level of service, no.
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Steve steveson wrote: Your both moving the goalposts then. Wether someone can provide for themselves through hard work is a complete irrelevance to the topic of the rich and the pooling of wealth out of reach of most people.
What your doing now is demonising using the poor. Saying they must be poor because they are lazy or spend money on luxuries. Different argument.
I'm pretty fine with true wealth being out of the reach of most people.
So what your saying is that the county is unequal and your fine with wealth (and power, as part of the point is the wealthy buy power) is held in the hands of a few with most being excluded and not sharing in the success of the economy no matter what they do?
Steve steveson wrote: So what your saying is that the county is unequal and your fun with wealth (and power, as part of the point is the wealthy buy power) is held in the hands of a few with most never being excluded and not sharing in the success of the economy no matter what they do?
I honestly have no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean.
What about health care or pension plans? Those have to be aids, right? Just like the GI Bill, after all, they're certainly not earned, they're given freely.
What about health care or pension plans? Those have to be aids, right? Just like the GI Bill, after all, they're certainly not earned, they're given freely.
What about health care or pension plans? Those have to be aids, right? Just like the GI Bill, after all, they're certainly not earned, they're given freely.
So you're arguing that the elderly, who have paid taxes (Medicare and otherwise) for long periods of time and worked for just as long (improving the economy), have not been services to the state?Ok...
Not a comparable level of service, no.
What about people who work for the state? Teachers, police, etcetera?
Steve steveson wrote: What about people who work for the state? Teachers, police, etcetera?
We already do a comparable (albeit easier) program with teachers. Teach for America. Police and firefighters I actually could see favoring for something similar to the GI Bill. I'd be thrilled to pay for it by cutting out most social welfare programs, or the Department of Education, or the TSA, or...well, you get the idea.
Steve steveson wrote: So what your saying is that the county is unequal and your fine with wealth (and power, as part of the point is the wealthy buy power) is held in the hands of a few with most being excluded and not sharing in the success of the economy no matter what they do?
I honestly have no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean.
Steve steveson wrote: What about people who work for the state? Teachers, police, etcetera?
We already do a comparable (albeit easier) program with teachers. Teach for America. Police and firefighters I actually could see favoring for something similar to the GI Bill. I'd be thrilled to pay for it by cutting out most social welfare programs, or the Department of Education, or the TSA, or...well, you get the idea.
Fair enough. Makes sense. I get what your saying now.
I'm just challenging dogma's spiel that G.I. Bill is at the expense of tax-payers. Which is not accurate. He served his term in the Navy and as such, earned the benefit to use the G.I. Bill program (or whatever it's called now).
Read what Dogma was replying too. His position is basically "I got where I am all on my own and no one helped me" which is a load of bull. The G.I. Bill is a public program that uses public funds. He got help.
GI Bill is only available for service men/women while serving or had served.
To me, that's part of the "benefit" packages these service men get.
That's not "help" along the same vein that you or I could get via Stafford loans for college.
The biggest purpose for them actually was to siphon off people from the labor supply after WW2, instead of having a ton of unemployed vets sitting around they'd be shunted off into colleges and universities and give the labor force time to reabsorb millions of people.
That said, it's still funding assistance that others pay for, it's just instead of paying it back like a traditional loan you pay X amount of time to the US Gov't.
What about health care or pension plans? Those have to be aids, right? Just like the GI Bill, after all, they're certainly not earned, they're given freely.
Hey, we're all just a bunch of welfare receivers.
You guys were lucky and fortunate enough to get in, which is different than the "I bootstrapped harder than other people" argument that created this particular discussion.
How long is the list of medical exclusions to enlist now? If somebody has a heart defect, are they lazy because they didn't join the military and then used the GI Bill to get an education? If somebody is blind in one eye, are they lazy because they didn't join the military and then used the GI Bill to get an education? People can't exactly bootstrap their other eye into being fully functional. And despite Seaward's insistence to the contrary, it's also a recruiters market right now and not everybody can just wake up in the morning and decide "I'm feeling kind of bootstrappy today, let's enlist. See you in a couple of months mom!" The majority of people won't deny the hard work and service that our military members put in and that they deserve the benefits they get, but we need to also accept that with a flip of luck all your futures could have been completely different and that you guys were dealt a good deck of cards.
I know that there are people that think that military members and veterans are entitled welfare kings and queens. They make just as much sense as people saying "I got my college degree with my GI Bill. If you didn't then you are just lazy and didn't bootstrap hard enough".
I think people are forgetting that the GI Bill is not something that is just handed to us.
We are given one single opportunity to take it. That opportunity comes when we are in Basic Training, are heads all jacked out of whack, and the only thing we are thinking about is if we'll survive to the next meal. Then they come up to us and say "Hey! If you give us $1200, in two years we'll let you have some money for college. You get this one chance to say yes, you will never get the opportunity again."
So it's not like it's just we join the military and then BAM tens of thousands of dollars are given to us. We have to pay for it, $100 a month for a full year, when our salary is at it's smallest. It's easy to sit back in your armchair and say of course it's the easiest decision ever, but you'd be surprised how much time was spent thinking on it, and how many refuse it.
Now personally, I think much of the military has gotten to a point where the MGIB is no longer necessary to take. For many of us in the Air Force and Navy our jobs are so technical that we earn dozens of college credits in our training. We have other helpful tools, like free CLEP and DANTES tests, and when Congress isn't being a bunch of asshats, we mostly get free tuition assistance, up to $4500 a year. I should get my bachelors and possibly masters completed without ever having to touch my GI Bill.
BUT, many in the military do not have the same chances I do. Many jobs in the military do not translate to the civilian world. For them, the GI Bill is not an "aid" to them, it's an "aid" to the nation because it helps to keep them out of the unemployment lines. That was the entire reason the Bill was created in the first place.
whembly wrote: Shouldn't we be arguing the degree of wealth inequality?
Because, isn't the opposite of that... wealth equality? Isn't that socialsim/utopian?
I don't think so. The degree doesn't really concern me, either. I'm for equal opportunity, but I don't believe equal opportunity will ever lead to equal results. Level the playing field completely today, and by tomorrow you'll have people who have risen and people who have fallen. By the following week, we'll be back to screaming about wealth inequality. The notion that everyone's going to achieve at the same level provided everything's "fair" is pernicious, pernicious stuff.
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d-usa wrote: You guys were lucky and fortunate enough to get in, which is different than the "I bootstrapped harder than other people" argument that created this particular discussion.
No, you're right. OCS selection's basically a lottery, and it comes down to luck. Aviation selection out of OCS? Same thing. Pure luck. Jets out of Primary? Again, nothing to do with merit (or hard work, you might say), they actually just draw names out of a hat.
d-usa wrote: You guys were lucky and fortunate enough to get in, which is different than the "I bootstrapped harder than other people" argument that created this particular discussion.
No, you're right. OCS selection's basically a lottery, and it comes down to luck. Aviation selection out of OCS? Same thing. Pure luck. Jets out of Primary? Again, nothing to do with merit (or hard work, you might say), they actually just draw names out of a hat.
Do you think about what you type?
Or you can read his second paragraph where he gets to his point
How long is the list of medical exclusions to enlist now? If somebody has a heart defect, are they lazy because they didn't join the military and then used the GI Bill to get an education? If somebody is blind in one eye, are they lazy because they didn't join the military and then used the GI Bill to get an education? People can't exactly bootstrap their other eye into being fully functional. And despite Seaward's insistence to the contrary, it's also a recruiters market right now and not everybody can just wake up in the morning and decide "I'm feeling kind of bootstrappy today, let's enlist. See you in a couple of months mom!" The majority of people won't deny the hard work and service that our military members put in and that they deserve the benefits they get, but we need to also accept that with a flip of luck all your futures could have been completely different and that you guys were dealt a good deck of cards.
The fact that you were born without a disqualifying disability, as some people are, is luck on your part that not everyone shares.
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote: The fact that you were born without a disqualifying disability, as some people are, is luck on your part that not everyone shares.
It's luck that the overwhelming majority of the population shares. The major medical barrier to entry currently? Obesity. Sorry. I'm not buying that as a "luck" situation. The major barriers to entry overall? Obesity, criminal convictions, and failure to obtain a high school diploma. I'm not buying those as "luck" situations, either.
And I take more issue with his intricate and apparently brief-Wikipedia-scan-gleaned knowledge of recruiting standards and practices than the assertion that a tiny percentage of the population would be non-waiverable medically disqualified (by conditions not of their own doing) from enlisting. It's fun to think that recruiters aren't out there hustling for every signature, but it's just not the case, even with a Democrat in the White House and a drawdown underway.
From everything I understand, my Deuteranopia would prevent me from bootstrapping via the military route, at least, for most jobs. I've read of accounts of people being rejected from enlistment of all branches of the US military because of it. Not sure how true that is, as I bootstrapped through luck and guile, rather than hard work.
I have a friend who got a very well paying job with Lockheed Martin. He's talented, he worked hard, he deserved that job. All good reasons he got his job. He also got it because his brother works for Lockheed Martin, can go to his boss and say "my brother just graduated and is qualified for this entry level position." Many people I know have found jobs through friends and family, something that is based on circumstance more than hard work.
I went to school on the GI Bill and never served a day. That was luck of being born in a family where my father is in the Army.
The outcome of your life being influenced by a luck of the draw is not an inference that hard work has nothing to do with it. People who pretend that success is the sole domain of hard work are missing the millions of people who work their asses off and gain little in comparison.
LordofHats wrote: I have a friend who got a very well paying job with Lockheed Martin. He's talented, he worked hard, he deserved that job. All good reasons he got his job. He also got it because his brother works for Lockheed Martin, can go to his boss and say "my brother just graduated and is qualified for this entry level position." Many people I know have found jobs through friends and family, something that is based on circumstance more than hard work.
I always love this argument. Of course you need a network if you want to up your chances of finding a good job. The guys who think that they should just be able to throw a resume and a cover letter at some "Careers" link at the bottom of a web page and get the same shake as everybody else crack me up.
I got my job current job because of contacts I made (and kept active) while the military was still providing all the Benjamins I use to light my cigars. I do much less and earn much more than guys who have a hell of a lot more experience than me because I did that and they didn't. If you're not networking and planning ahead and doing all that stuff, then sorry, you're going to lose out to the guys smart enough to do so. Learn that lesson early. Or I guess you could complain that the system's unfair and see where that gets you. I'm sure the guy in the White House busily fellating Walmart and Google will make you a lot of pretty promises, at least.
I went to school on the GI Bill and never served a day. That was luck of being born in a family where my father is in the Army.
You must have graduated within the last year.
The outcome of your life being influenced by a luck of the draw is not an inference that hard work has nothing to do with it. People who pretend that success is the sole domain of hard work are missing the millions of people who work their asses off and gain little in comparison.
As I said, hard work and good choices. If you're working your ass off and gaining little, you didn't do so well in the latter category.
I always love this argument. Of course you need a network if you want to up your chances of finding a good job. The guys who think that they should just be able to throw a resume and a cover letter at some "Careers" link at the bottom of a web page and get the same shake as everybody else crack me up.
And how about the millions of people who don't know anyone or have family in an industry to network them? Most people won't have that luxury.
You must have graduated within the last year.
07 (earlier in the thread).
If you're working your ass off and gaining little, you didn't do so well in the latter category.
If everyone was psychic, good choices might be a valid idea. But we're not, and we can get knocked out of the running by things that have absolutely nothing to do with our choices. Case and point I have absolutely no control over when a recession hits and wipes out my job opportunities.
LordofHats wrote: And how about the millions of people who don't know anyone or have family in an industry to network them? Most people won't have that luxury.
Then they should probably do what I did, and in fact continue to do. Just to be clear, I didn't get my job from family or friends. I got it by having an idea of what I wanted to do when I got out, and going out of my way to meet people in that industry and cultivate contacts.
If everyone was psychic, good choices might be a valid idea. But we're not, and we can get knocked out of the running by things that have absolutely nothing to do with our choices. Case and point I have absolutely no control over when a recession hits and wipes out my job opportunities.
Yeah, I don't think it requires ESP to know that it's a bad idea to have kids you can't afford, to not take out loans or mortgages or other forms of debt you can't comfortably repay, to know how to Google the highest-paying and lowest-paying degrees, to recognize that busting your ass at a $9.50 an hour job is never going to equal a summer home in the Hamptons and that you might want to consider ways to make yourself a more attractive promotion candidate, etc.
Yeah, I don't think it requires ESP to know that it's a bad idea to have kids you can't afford, to not take out loans or mortgages or other forms of debt you can't comfortably repay, to know how to Google the highest-paying and lowest-paying degrees, to recognize that busting your ass at a $9.50 an hour job is never going to equal a summer home in the Hamptons and that you might want to consider ways to make yourself a more attractive promotion candidate, etc.
It's stunningly easy to kick back in an armchair and remark as such. I should know, I've done it before.
Then they should probably do what I did, and in fact continue to do. Just to be clear, I didn't get my job from family or friends. I got it by having an idea of what I wanted to do when I got out, and going out of my way to meet people in that industry and cultivate contacts.
You worked in the military, one of the most valuable work histories anyone can have. Combined with a degree (and not being one of the guys critically injured or dead), you'd need to be slowed or exceptionally screwed by fate not to find work. Hell I networked with barely any work because people know my family (we have a rare name so we stand out), had a successful internship that was going to become a job after graduation, and I still got screwed by happenstance and ended up trapped in the lost graduating classes of 07, 08, and 09.
Yeah, I don't think it requires ESP to know that it's a bad idea to have kids you can't afford, to not take out loans or mortgages or other forms of debt you can't comfortably repay, to know how to Google the highest-paying and lowest-paying degrees, to recognize that busting your ass at a $9.50 an hour job is never going to equal a summer home in the Hamptons and that you might want to consider ways to make yourself a more attractive promotion candidate, etc.
I like how you completely avoided the point. You might not have noticed, but college is ludiciously expensive in most places and its getting more expensive. Getting a degree without encuring a lot of debt isn't an option for most people. Their parents don't have the money to pay their way, no part time job will pay enough, and scholarships and federal aid are limited (and often still not enough). The only way to get an education for most students is to go into debt.
Don't do this and don't do that is all well and good until you realize we live in the real world. People don't have as many options and they're stuck competing with everyone else with the same limited options which is a lot of people.
daedalus wrote: It's stunningly easy to kick back in an armchair and remark as such. I should know, I've done it before.
I held the same view when I was urinating into a bag while sweating my ass off in a drysuit over the Atlantic, but I'll admit it's nicer in an armchair.
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LordofHats wrote: You worked in the military, one of the most valuable work histories anyone can have. Combined with a degree (and not being one of the guys critically injured or dead), you'd need to be slowed or exceptionally screwed by fate not to find work.
You're not saying we don't have a lot of unemployed vets out there, I hope.
I like how you completely avoided the point. You might not have noticed, but college is ludiciously expensive in most places and its getting more expensive.
You're confusing me with someone who thinks everybody should be going to college.
Getting a degree without encuring a lot of debt isn't an option for most people. Their parents don't have the money to pay their way, no part time job will pay enough, and scholarships and federal aid are limited (and often still not enough). The only way to get an education for most students is to go into debt.
Then I guess if you really want that degree that you're absolutely certain is going to be useful, you're going to have to take on debt.
If I were 20 and didn't have a job, my ass would be in North Dakota making bank on the natural gas boom right now, not pursuing an overpriced liberal arts degree that I will quite simply never use.
You're not saying we don't have a lot of unemployed vets out there, I hope.
Yeah, people with mental and physical injuries (that tend to not get as much attention as they should, especially the mental ones) and men who have spent their adult lives in the military and after leaving aren't given much support when transitioning to civilian life. Some of them hit the trifecta. Of course, by your argument they're all lazy twits and didn't work hard enough or make good decisions.
You're confusing me with someone who thinks everybody should be going to college.
That doesn't have anything to do with what I said.
North Dakota making bank on the natural gas boom right now, not pursuing an overpriced liberal arts degree that I will quite simply never use.
Being an electrician pays better, has a lot less competition from people experienced in the field (apprenticeship programs are pretty plentiful). oh wait, both are fields dominated by small circles of people with specific backgrounds who all know each other and monopolize most of the positions making it difficult to get into the field.
Irony; skilled labor often has a harsher competitive environment than college grads with liberal arts degrees.
daedalus wrote: It's stunningly easy to kick back in an armchair and remark as such. I should know, I've done it before.
I held the same view when I was urinating into a bag while sweating my ass off in a drysuit over the Atlantic, but I'll admit it's nicer in an armchair.
Good for you? My point is that, for a myriad of reasons, what may be financially responsible today might not be tomorrow. You're targeting the 'easy' edge cases, but that doesn't change the fact that you could lose your job tomorrow, incur a medical payment that you can't recover from, and so on.
Well, maybe you can't. Maybe you've managed to build yourself up to such a point that you can sit in your ivory tower thinking that you're set no matter what goes wrong, hence the armchair comment.
Filthy Sanchez wrote: Is it this genuinely difficult to understand that "wealth" is not a zero-sum game? The "rich" aren't rich because they took their loot from the poor. The poor, the middle-class, and other rich people generally give it to them willingly, because they own or run a business that provides goods or services that they want to buy.
It's a lot more complex than that. Sure, it is possible to create new wealth where no wealth was never created before, I mean that's basically how society progresses, but it is grossly simplistic to then assume that all wealth is automatically generated by the individual that ends up receiving it.
Consider, for instance, the owner of a service business, where to keep things nice and simple there's revenue, less salaries for his 10 employees, and what's left is his profit. The company grossed 600k last year, and he paid his employees 40k each, leaving him with 200k gross profit. That's great, thanks to the combined efforts of the owner and his workers, and the greater society in which they operate 600k in wealth was created where nothing existed before. But then consider if those employees were instead paid 45k, leaving the business owner with 150k. The same wealth is created, but it is more equally spread. Now consider if it goes the other way, if the company owner was able to pay 20k and leave himself 400k in profit, some wealth created, but much less equally distributed.
You want to be rich, or even just slightly better off, get off your asses and WORK. Stop making excuses for all of the bad decisions you've made in life, and find a way to make yourself move valuable to a company, and then get to it. As soon as you fall into the trap of blaming anyone else for your station in life, you have basically opted out of the game, and you will go NOWHERE, until you change your attitude.
You're being very lazy there, assuming they are just looking to grab more for themselves. Basically you're just inventing a reason to villify people in order to dismiss them. But the thing is, I argue for income equality all the time on these forums, and I know full well my wife and I would be the ones giving up income to make things more equal. And I'm far from alone in this, because lots of people in the world aren't simply grabbing for themselves, but are actually concerned for the lives of others. I'm no bleeding heart, but I do think that if we are going to claim that people should get off their asses and work, they should be paid a decent wage for doing so.
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Filthy Sanchez wrote: I got my first job when I was 12, delivering newspapers. I did that, and worked as a dishwasher in a restaurant until I was 17. Then I joined the Navy, and worked on a sub for 6 years learning a trade. When I got out, I used the GI bill to pay for a B.S. degree.
"Everyone should get out there and work and do it for themselves and not wait for government to help them. I did it." "How did you do it." "I got a job working for the government, and then government paid for me to go to school."
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Filthy Sanchez wrote: "The rich" is far too nebulous a term, and is used interchangeably to refer to sociopathically corrupt politicians as well as those who achieved their status through inscrutably honest means.
And 'the poor' is an even more nebulous term, for every screw up moaning about needing more welfare, there are dozens of people working two jobs on minimum wage, spending each night thinking that hopefully they should be able to eat for the next week and pay the rent, just as long as the car doesn't brake down.
Oh, and your reference to politicians there is hilarious, as if that's anywhere near the most common example of people who got rich by giving nothing back. I mean, have you dealt with any of the people who make up modern international finance?
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LordofHats wrote: Actually going to use this to illustrate my point. Its not like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or that douche who invented the abomination now known as Face Book, were somehow harder working or more brilliant than Alan Turning, Konrad Zuse, or Fredrick C Williams. If anything, those three men were vastly more intillgent than anyone in the tech industry today (it only exists because of Turning). They made more breakthroughs, did more research, and they worked their asses off and did well for themselves but they never became as affluent as those who followed them.
Did Gates and Jobs work hard? yeah, but no harder than dozens of others in history who created the science that they used to build their business'. They lived in a time and place where Microsoft and Apple could be created and that had nothing to do with either Gates of Jobs. They didn't create the world as of 1960.
Absolutely 100% agree, and you put it really well. The people who've built wealth for themselves, be it Bill Gates or a local business owner, or even a well paid professional, they didn't create their wealth out of nothing. It came about because of the way they were able to interact with the system, with much of that system being formed long before they were born.
It's a total nonsense for a person to take advantage of that system, the technology advances that others have developed, the educational system in place, the infrastrucure, the legal system (especially its property and IP laws)... and then complain when that same system says the richest people have to pay more tax.
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whembly wrote: I'm just challenging dogma's spiel that G.I. Bill is at the expense of tax-payers. Which is not accurate. He served his term in the Navy and as such, earned the benefit to use the G.I. Bill program (or whatever it's called now).
The GI Bill was formed not just as remuneration. If offering education for people who've left the job was somehow an effective means of remuneration, you'd see private companies doing it. Instead private companies condition paying for education on the understanding that the employee remains with the company.
The GI Bill is nation building, its an effort to build up the nation's human capital, to invest in education of people who've proven themselves hard working and dedicated through their military service. It is not about what a serviceman has earned, but about what the nation wants to invest in its veterans.
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d-usa wrote: He was lucky that he had the opportunity to "earn" his GI Bill.
If he had a medical problem he wouldn't have been able to "bootstrap" himself into getting enlisted. If we wouldn't have been fighting wars everywhere the enlistment quota could easily have been different and be wouldn't be able to bootstrap himself to enlist in a position that doesn't exist.
It's easy to ignore that success has a large "luck" factor and then pretend that you are 100% a product of your own awesomeness.
And not only that, but most of the people who go to college don't have to spend years in the armed services before hand. They just finish highschool and write some letters. Surely that's a lot luckier than the guy who has to spend 6 years in a submarine smelling the fart filled air of hundreds of other crewmen. And if lots of people are in the same position as our bootstrapping All American Hero but did it much easier through luck, then surely...
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d-usa wrote: He doesn't bother to argue against anything people actually type. He reads posts...
No, he doesn't. That's the problem. He argues against what he thinks people probably said.
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Seaward wrote: I don't think so. The degree doesn't really concern me, either. I'm for equal opportunity, but I don't believe equal opportunity will ever lead to equal results.
As I already explained in the thread, equal opportunity disappears as you get more and more income inequality. The opportunity for the kid who's parents work 60 hours each on minimum wage, who needs a really good scholarship to attend college, simply aren't the same as they are for the kid who's dad earns so much his mum can stay home, and who are able to pay for tuition to any college. And even that kid's opportunities aren't the same as the kid who gets born in to old money, who can get private tutoring in any subject he isn't starring in, and for whom grades simply don't matter when it comes to attending college, because his family has a wing named after them at an Ivy League.
If you honestly believed in equality of opportunity, then you'd acknowledge the need for some amount of equality of income.
Absolutely 100% agree, and you put it really well. The people who've built wealth for themselves, be it Bill Gates or a local business owner, or even a well paid professional, they didn't create their wealth out of nothing. It came about because of the way they were able to interact with the system, with much of that system being formed long before they were born.
It's a total nonsense for a person to take advantage of that system, the technology advances that others have developed, the educational system in place, the infrastrucure, the legal system (especially its property and IP laws)... and then complain when that same system says the richest people have to pay more tax.
This. The people benefitting the most from the system (monetarily) are the people with the most money, because they're the ones who have used that system to get rich (note that I don't think there's anything wrong with that). What is being asked is that they pay the system back so that it can survive; when people pretend that Gates or Jobs or someone similar made all of their money on their own, completely divorced from society, that's in my mind effectively arguing for the state to not require those who have benefitted from the system to pay.
Hmm....
Methinks that the best solution would be for the rich to contribute more for the common good than is currently en vogue among them. A very wealthy man wisely once observed:
"The problem of our age is the proper administration of wealth, so that the ties of brotherhood may still bind together the rich and poor in harmonious relationship. ... Men who continue hoarding great sums all their lives, the proper use of which for - public ends would work good to the community, should be made to feel that the community, in the form of the state, cannot thus be deprived of its proper share. By taxing estates heavily at death the state marks its condemnation of the selfish millionaire's unworthy life." - Andrew Carnegie, Wealth
Won't there come a point, and I think the consumer index displays this, that poor people won't have enough money to buy products from the rich. At that point are they not shooting themselves in the foot?
Andrew1975 wrote: Won't there come a point, and I think the consumer index displays this, that poor people won't have enough money to buy products from the rich. At that point are they not shooting themselves in the foot?
daedalus wrote: It's stunningly easy to kick back in an armchair and remark as such. I should know, I've done it before.
I held the same view when I was urinating into a bag while sweating my ass off in a drysuit over the Atlantic, but I'll admit it's nicer in an armchair.
Good for you? My point is that, for a myriad of reasons, what may be financially responsible today might not be tomorrow. You're targeting the 'easy' edge cases, but that doesn't change the fact that you could lose your job tomorrow, incur a medical payment that you can't recover from, and so on.
Well, maybe you can't. Maybe you've managed to build yourself up to such a point that you can sit in your ivory tower thinking that you're set no matter what goes wrong, hence the armchair comment.
Don't you know? He's made out of pure bootstraps! He probably pulled himself out of his mom and immediately moved out!
daedalus wrote: Good for you? My point is that, for a myriad of reasons, what may be financially responsible today might not be tomorrow. You're targeting the 'easy' edge cases, but that doesn't change the fact that you could lose your job tomorrow, incur a medical payment that you can't recover from, and so on.
Well, maybe you can't. Maybe you've managed to build yourself up to such a point that you can sit in your ivory tower thinking that you're set no matter what goes wrong, hence the armchair comment.
And as I said, the armchair comment doesn't apply, as I felt the same way before I got to the point that neither of those things would be a big deal.
We're supposed to be upset that some people were "lucky"? Or, had more help than Joe Schmoe?
Well, it's a lot like Toyotomi Hideyoshi. You play the system to climb to the top, then close the door behind you so no one else can follow you up. It's rigging the game so that the poor stay poor, eliminating the checks on your power, and not giving anything back to the public.
I might point out that this same combination has lead to disaster in the past. And it didn't end well for the wealthy and powerful at the time either.
whembly wrote: Um... yeah... not sure if I agree with that.
o.O
You're basically arguing that "The Man" is holding down the po folks.
Partially. What I'm saying is any society where the imbalance between the upper and lower classes is too severe is inherently unstable. The greater the perceived imbalance, the more likely it becomes that people will take matters into their own hands. Unfortunately, the typical response to someone killing one of the rich and powerful is for the other rich and powerful to close ranks and start to circle the wagons using whatever means they have available. You'll see government crackdowns, etc. This however only serves to make the issue worse. Crackdowns that are either too violent or not violent enough tend to have the opposite effect to what was desired, and judging how brutal is too brutal, or not brutal enough is a tricky business.
In the US they've been using 'Bread and Circuses' to try and keep the public from noticing in the first place. One good thing about modern mass media is it really has replaced religion as the opiate of the masses.
Saying 'The Man' is keeping 'po folks' down might be dismissive, but it's also not untrue. The tax system in particular is very much rigged to keep small bushiness small and shield big business from competition. The last time things got this far out of whack in the US, there was widespread civil unrest and domestic terrorism. Imagine a modern Wall Street Bombing with an automobile loaded with metal fragments going off outside the offices of Trump, and tell me what the governments reaction would be.
In the US they've been using 'Bread and Circuses' to try and keep the public from noticing in the first place. One good thing about modern mass media is it really has replaced religion as the opiate of the masses.
Which translates to The people are too busy watching tv, to notice they're been fethed on.
BaronIveagh wrote: Well, it's a lot like Toyotomi Hideyoshi. You play the system to climb to the top, then close the door behind you so no one else can follow you up. It's rigging the game so that the poor stay poor, eliminating the checks on your power, and not giving anything back to the public.
Haven't closed the door on anybody, and I give a hell of a lot more back to the public than you. Want to try again?
Haven't closed the door on anybody, and I give a hell of a lot more back to the public than you. Want to try again?
Really? Might I ask then what you did to give back to the public? Military service? That's great. That's a step in the right direction, but let's be honest, when was the last war that was to the benefit of the American people? WW2? Arguably Korea? See, here's the problem, you go to war these days, and this is the thing that bugs me, the hypocrisy of it, for money. Not the dog faces on the ground, but the officers up the chain. They fail and get men killed, and cost the taxpayer billions, and as long as their ass is sufficiently covered, they get promoted. They retire to a cushy consulting jobs, and never give a second thought to the forty dead men in the turret, or the guys who's careers they flushed to cover their assess. Show me a combat infantry badge, a purple heart, or some commendation for actual valor, and that's serving the public. Collecting a paycheck from the military does not equate actual public service. Just look at the latest scandals coming out of the military in the US for just how little the public was really served in some cases.
As far as what I've done in the US for the betterment of the general public, I arraigned free tech support for low income people on the res in NY tate, helped set up and design free to the public haunted houses each Halloween for several years, and assisted in the preservation of historic structures across New York and Pennsylvania (financially and/or with actual manual labor). I also donated to the Salvation Army and donated antiques to several museums. And no, I didn't take those off on my income tax.
As far as closing the door, Seaward, you also don't seem to object to those that do, either. Regardless of risking your ass, Joe Average's life is not measurably better for it.
Really? Might I ask then what you did to give back to the public?
I think I can safely say that I've paid far more in taxes than most, for starters. Because that's what this is about, after all. You want more of my money.
Military service? That's great. That's a step in the right direction, but let's be honest, when was the last war that was to the benefit of the American people? WW2? Arguably Korea? See, here's the problem, you go to war these days, and this is the thing that bugs me, the hypocrisy of it, for money. Not the dog faces on the ground, but the officers up the chain. They fail and get men killed, and cost the taxpayer billions, and as long as their ass is sufficiently covered, they get promoted. They retire to a cushy consulting jobs, and never give a second thought to the forty dead men in the turret, or the guys who's careers they flushed to cover their assess. Show me a combat infantry badge, a purple heart, or some commendation for actual valor, and that's serving the public. Collecting a paycheck from the military does not equate actual public service. Just look at the latest scandals coming out of the military in the US for just how little the public was really served in some cases.
How 'bout an Air Medal? Not that it matters in the least, of course. You can risk your life in the military and wind up without anything fancy to put on the ol' chest. Plenty of guys do it all the time.
Also, what vehicle are we using currently - or ever, now that I think about it - where forty guys were in a turret? Not that you don't seem extremely knowledgeable about the military, or anything. Certainly we haven't had any officers dying in the most recent wars. Michael Murphy's enjoying a 'cushy consulting job' right now, without question. And let me tell you, getting a 23 ton aircraft back aboard the boat at night in the Persian Gulf? All about screwing over sailors, and definitely not dangerous.
As far as closing the door, Seaward, you also don't seem to object to those that do, either. Regardless of risking your ass, Joe Average's life is not measurably better for it.
Joe Average's station in life doesn't fall under my purview. Hasn't, and won't.
Seaward wrote: [
Also, what vehicle are we using currently - or ever, now that I think about it - where forty guys were in a turret? Not that you don't seem extremely knowledgeable about the military, or anything
Clearly more knowledgeable than you in some areas. 47 men were killed in Iowa's turret number 2.
And, no, I don't want your money. I want you to try and improve the lot of your fellow man, but that but based on our convos in the past, the only way a selfish bastard like you would think of anyone else is (and this is coming from me Seaward) is if you had it forcibly taken off you by the IRS. Let me ask you, you kick the Salvation Army bell ringer on the way by too, or just put washers in the pot?
We're supposed to be upset that some people were "lucky"? Or, had more help than Joe Schmoe?
No, we're not supposed to be upset that someone was lucky. Or got help. Or anything else.
'Luck' is really a red herring, because it implies some kind of punishment for accumulating wealth and high incomes, and that isn't what this is about at all. It is basically the simple statement that everyone is part of the system, and while that system has rewards in place for people to work hard, apply their intelligence, and yes get lucky, we also recognise that left alone those rewards would leave some people with far too much, at the expense of many others who would be left with far too little.
So we modify the system, give a little more to the people with very little, either to just help them get by, or to give them help so that they are capable of contributing more to society themselves. And to pay for that, we take from the people who are already receiving considerable wealth from the system.
We must be careful not to take so much that people are discouraged from continuing to work hard or apply their intelligence, but within that limitation there is a vast amount of scope to create a much more level playing field than we currently have.
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Seaward wrote: Haven't closed the door on anybody, and I give a hell of a lot more back to the public than you. Want to try again?
I like how Seaward thinks he's the person being talked about when we have a thread about the vast levels of income inequality in the world. Either being an ex-air force pilot pays about a billion dollars more a year than I thought, or he doesn't realise where he actually sits in the economic totem pole.