Is there any consensus on this?

My vote would go to Feel no Pain.

For some reason people I play against it always seems to even stop instant death. I dont know how many times I have hit a T4 model with a Lascannon to beat the cover save, beat the Invul save, then they get saved by Feel no pain. I think I will just concede in future vs a FnP army.

You're being cheated then. Can't take fnp vs instant death.

Probably smash.

Btw instant death cancels out fnp.

Are there any situations in any codex where a T4 model can use FnP vs instant death from a Lascannon?

No, can't think of any.

I'll vote for, 'The Rule of Cool'.

Eternal Warrior stops you dying, but I don't think it lets you use Feel no Pain.

Ignore cover in this shooty edd. My orks hate it :/

I'd probably go for ignores cover. If your army relies on it to survive and you run up against an army with plentiful ignores cover, you won't be having a good day.

Can't pick one Ignore cover is huge this edition , but so is ASKNF in every edition.

 phatonic wrote:
Ignore cover in this shooty edd. My orks hate it :/

my orks vote the same!

FNP is brilliant on T5 because there is very little in the game that can instant death it.


But ignores cover is pretty huge, especially when used with a low AP gun.

I think that And They Shall Know No Fear is the special rule which has the most influence in the game as played.

Smash is probably the one I would pay most points for, although Ignore Cover and Shrouded are also damn good on the right models.

Feel No Pain is very good and works well on pretty much everything. Other than vehicles and T 2 models, everyone is significantly better with FNP.

Ignore Cover is very powerful, especially as we seem to have more powerful weapons this edition that ignore cover in some way. And some weapons also indirectly ignore cover, like Barrage weapons (hiding behind a wall does you no good if the template lands behind the wall).
And They Shall Know No Fear is still very good. Automatically rallying, as well as simply not dying if you can't escape from assault, is a strong ability.

I dont think there is any one special rule that I dislike, but I hate anything that stacks from a game balance perspective. There should be no way to get a 2+ cover save for example. Things should just give a solid number and you get to use the better of all the choices that apply.

Destroyer. Screw Destroyer.

And They Shall Know No Fear. No question in my mind.

FNP easily. I fought against my own Nurgle army last night and found out how stubborn it makes units.
I couldn't shift the plague marines off of objectives.

NamelessBard wrote:
You're being cheated then. Can't take fnp vs instant death.

He got cheated twice, because you can't take a cover save and an invulnerable save for the same wound.

 Jimsolo wrote:
And They Shall Know No Fear. No question in my mind.

This rule is much too powerful for what it does and for that fact the so many armies have it

 Jimsolo wrote:
And They Shall Know No Fear. No question in my mind.

Do you reckon anyone would support toning it down to something a little more like it was back in the days of 2nd Ed?

"Units containing a model with this special rule become Shaken if they fail a Morale Check. Shaken units may not move toward enemy models. Shaken units may Rally, just as Broken units, returning to normal. A Shaken Unit that fails a subsequent Morale Check becomes Broken.
Units containing a model with this special rule may also reroll failed tests for Fear."

when my whole army can run and shoot, with rerolls on that run, its pretty scary. i feel sorry for my enemies whenever i use that rule to shoot and hide (as i always do)

 Swastakowey wrote:
when my whole army can run and shoot, with rerolls on that run, its pretty scary. i feel sorry for my enemies whenever i use that rule to shoot and hide (as i always do)

Eldar trickery at its finest.

The Destroyer special rule, by a country mile.

In the main rulebook: Interceptor. It can swing a game to the point where player A is playing at one point level, and his/her opponent is playing at another.

Using a flyer? Unless it has a ton of HP, obscenely high armor, or an invuln save, it'll be destroyed when it comes on against some armies.

Using deep strikers? Not only do you get to deal with the possibility of mishaping, you also get to deal with opponents potentially wiping out that unit that just came in, before it gets to do anything.


Adding in the supplements I'd have to say Destroyer.

Soul Blaze: it makes everything better.

Relentless if you ask me. Being able to move and fire those weapons.

ATSKNF is required to make marine units even playable. If your 5 point unit can sweep a 14-60 point unit (yes, 60 points, that's how expensive some of our gak can get) then what's the point?

There's a reason CSM players don't use CSM.

Most powerful rule is Ignore Cover and Battle Focus. ATSKNF doesn't even change anything in terms of winning or losing other than making marines even worse. "Oh no, those Dark Angels know no fear! How will I ever win now?" said no player ever.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
ATSKNF is required to make marine units even playable. If your 5 point unit can sweep a 14-60 point unit (yes, 60 points, that's how expensive some of our gak can get) then what's the point?

There's a reason CSM players don't use CSM.

Most powerful rule is Ignore Cover and Battle Focus. ATSKNF doesn't even change anything in terms of winning or losing other than making marines even worse. "Oh no, those Dark Angels know no fear! How will I ever win now?" said no player ever.

You've never played IG or Tau! You have no idea how many men i have lost to sweeping advances over the years when they clearly had a numerical advantage but they got beat by a leadership roll. 50 man blob? Nope, all dead because a handful of lucky space marines caused you to fail and you rolled crummy on your leadership. THAT is a huge pain in the butt if i ever saw one. Ignore cover is pretty strong but it won't insta gib a massive squad based off of two dice. Its close though!

The special rule of ignore cover wouldn't be so bad if there was no way to get a 3+ or better cover save in the first place. Or if weapons that have ignore cover don't have any other special rules either like rending.

Ignoring cover weapons have been around for ages. Ordnance barrage should still get to ignore cover, flamers should still get to ignore cover, however AP4 is probably the best any ignore cover weapon should have ever been. Its just the way power creep escalates until the game becomes unplayable. Its been part of GWs design philosophy for years.

6th edition is just the beginning of the end as its just like what 2nd edition was at its end. Powercreep is getting to high for the current rule set to support and the "extra" supplements etc. are just like all the old crap you had to keep track of.

I'd be willing to bet that 8th edition sees an entire new game with a clean slate and start over.

Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:ATSKNF is required to make marine units even playable. If your 5 point unit can sweep a 14-60 point unit (yes, 60 points, that's how expensive some of our gak can get) then what's the point?

There's a reason CSM players don't use CSM.

Most powerful rule is Ignore Cover and Battle Focus. ATSKNF doesn't even change anything in terms of winning or losing other than making marines even worse. "Oh no, those Dark Angels know no fear! How will I ever win now?" said no player ever.

You've never played with any of the Eldar armies I see. With, not against. Try having units that are more expensive that Marines, with lower T and lower Sv and no ATSKNF to fall back on. It's a bit painful picking 200+ points off the table due to a single Ld roll.

Battle Focus is good, but it's not even close to the most powerful because it acts on 12-18" weapons most of the time. If Tau, Guard or Marines had Battle Focus it would be a completely different story because they've got long ranged weapons.

ductvader wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
And They Shall Know No Fear. No question in my mind.

This rule is much too powerful for what it does and for that fact the so many armies have it

Indeed, nearly all the benefits of Fearless and none of the drawbacks with addition that stuff that removes fearless - does not remove ATSKNF.


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Or maybe Battle Focus is the most powerful since it takes completely useless units and makes them not only somewhat worth their points, but also interesting. I write somewhat, 'cause I'm still not sure Guardians are worth more than 6 points each.

 Orblivion wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:
You're being cheated then. Can't take fnp vs instant death.

He got cheated twice, because you can't take a cover save and an invulnerable save for the same wound.

Sheesh your kidding right? This guy was rolling cover saves, invul, then FnP

With lasguns hitting he was rolling cover saves, armour saves, invul, then FnP. Sure its not some special Tyranid thing to get more saves?

 scommy wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:
You're being cheated then. Can't take fnp vs instant death.

He got cheated twice, because you can't take a cover save and an invulnerable save for the same wound.

Sheesh your kidding right? This guy was rolling cover saves, invul, then FnP

With lasguns hitting he was rolling cover saves, armour saves, invul, then FnP. Sure its not some special Tyranid thing to get more saves?

Nope. You my friend have been played finely. Sorry to be so unsubtle

anyways, I would choose Deep Strike for the most powerful rule. But that's mainly due to the amount of armies I've seen split by Deep Striking units...

G.A

Obviously Destroyer.

I can't see how some people think Ignores Cover is better?

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
ATSKNF is required to make marine units even playable. If your 5 point unit can sweep a 14-60 point unit (yes, 60 points, that's how expensive some of our gak can get) then what's the point?

You've never played IG or Tau! You have no idea how many men i have lost to sweeping advances over the years when they clearly had a numerical advantage but they got beat by a leadership roll. 50 man blob? Nope, all dead because a handful of lucky space marines caused you to fail and you rolled crummy on your leadership.

Return to 2nd Ed again? If you break from combat, each model in the winning side gets one automatic hit with their strongest weapon? Presuming they roll high enough Initiative on the Sweep and all?

Jayden63 wrote:6th edition is just the beginning of the end as its just like what 2nd edition was at its end. Powercreep is getting to high for the current rule set to support and the "extra" supplements etc. are just like all the old crap you had to keep track of.

Yeah, everyone's complaining about how that new Tyranid codex is jsut another example of Codex Creep.

I do find it funny that we moan for years about Codex Creep, and when they bring out a new dex that's not instantly overpowered everyone moans anyway...

nobody wrote:
In the main rulebook: Interceptor. It can swing a game to the point where player A is playing at one point level, and his/her opponent is playing at another.

Using a flyer? Unless it has a ton of HP, obscenely high armor, or an invuln save, it'll be destroyed when it comes on against some armies.

Using deep strikers? Not only do you get to deal with the possibility of mishaping, you also get to deal with opponents potentially wiping out that unit that just came in, before it gets to do anything.


Adding in the supplements I'd have to say Destroyer.

Totally agree. Most powerful, but fair. When several units have it, for cheap *cough EWO it can go from potent to cheese real quick. A close second would be a tie between Battle nFoucus or Ignores.Cover. ignores cover is much like interceptor.one or two units with bit is powerful etc.

I'm quite amused by those who seem to think ATSKNF is better than a rule that permits units to shoot without worry of return fire

Core rulebook interceptor it makes reserves style armies very unappealing and flyers usually paper thin armor won't often survive interceptor skyfire shots.
every other book destroyer easily

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
ATSKNF is required to make marine units even playable. If your 5 point unit can sweep a 14-60 point unit (yes, 60 points, that's how expensive some of our gak can get) then what's the point?

You've never played IG or Tau! You have no idea how many men i have lost to sweeping advances over the years when they clearly had a numerical advantage but they got beat by a leadership roll. 50 man blob? Nope, all dead because a handful of lucky space marines caused you to fail and you rolled crummy on your leadership.

Return to 2nd Ed again? If you break from combat, each model in the winning side gets one automatic hit with their strongest weapon? Presuming they roll high enough Initiative on the Sweep and all?

Jayden63 wrote:6th edition is just the beginning of the end as its just like what 2nd edition was at its end. Powercreep is getting to high for the current rule set to support and the "extra" supplements etc. are just like all the old crap you had to keep track of.

Yeah, everyone's complaining about how that new Tyranid codex is jsut another example of Codex Creep.

I do find it funny that we moan for years about Codex Creep, and when they bring out a new dex that's not instantly overpowered everyone moans anyway...

Well honestly I'm just sad they made the pyrovore worse....

Anyways.... I have a list.
-Ignores Cover
-Interceptor
-Battle Focus
-DESTROYER!
-Fear......

Honorable Mention:
-Fething And they Shall Know no Fear + Chapter Tactics. Good gosh hit the lottery? And how much does it cost? 1 point! That's what GW calculates it all to be. AtSKnF isn't really bad but it deserves mention for being oddly cheap.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
ATSKNF is required to make marine units even playable. If your 5 point unit can sweep a 14-60 point unit (yes, 60 points, that's how expensive some of our gak can get) then what's the point?

There's a reason CSM players don't use CSM.

Most powerful rule is Ignore Cover and Battle Focus. ATSKNF doesn't even change anything in terms of winning or losing other than making marines even worse. "Oh no, those Dark Angels know no fear! How will I ever win now?" said no player ever.

You've never played IG or Tau! You have no idea how many men i have lost to sweeping advances over the years when they clearly had a numerical advantage but they got beat by a leadership roll. 50 man blob? Nope, all dead because a handful of lucky space marines caused you to fail and you rolled crummy on your leadership. THAT is a huge pain in the butt if i ever saw one. Ignore cover is pretty strong but it won't insta gib a massive squad based off of two dice. Its close though!

A good idea that many players utilize is to invest in a way to make the blob Fearless. Like you said, it's a huge investment (not really, you should see how expensive marine units can get, 250 points is normal) so protect that investment. I don't see why you think it's fine for a 250+ point unprotected blob should not be swept but a 250+ point marine unit like 20 CSM should be okay to be swept.

I also don't know if I find it ironic, amusing, or maddeningly soul-crushing that Tau and Eldar players have the gall to say that marines are at an advantage to them with a straight face.

TORRENT, always TORRENT.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
I also don't know if I find it ironic, amusing, or maddeningly soul-crushing that Tau and Eldar players have the gall to say that marines are at an advantage to them with a straight face.

Do you know why is it possible? That may be because we are talking about a single rule, not about whole units, codexes etc.
Each and every discussion must end in: "but you are Eldar \ Tau so you must apologise for everything!!"?
Geez, how much pity do some of the players need..

Yes, most units are more powerful, that does not mean each and every SM rule is so weak that comparing them is "maddeningly soul-crushing". Really? Those are the words you use to compare ATSKNF to Ignore Covered? Drama much?

Ignores cover. It used to be rare, but now it can be damn near anywhere. It's pretty much broken the game...

It's honestly come to a point where I feel like I'm some sort of a douchebag just for playing Eldar, regardless of the years I've spent collecting them.

ATSKNF is definitely much better than Battle-Focus and bordering broken, as they touch so many rules that work for every other army out there, except Marines. While Battle-Focus just adds extra usefulness to certain units. Same as Bladestorm. And funny how you see no one complaining about those two rules when they complain about Eldar. It's usually just Serpents.

 Voidwraith wrote:
Ignores cover. It used to be rare, but now it can be damn near anywhere. It's pretty much broken the game...

Roll on the edition of no AP better than AP3!

Terminators rejoice!

You will be free again!1one

Iranna.

Im gonna go ahead and toss in the Psyker special rule cuz 2++ reroll...

Oh and soul blaze ofc just look at anything in the current csm dex ever.

Preferred Enemy

I've always hated ATSKNF for the fact that half the armies get to ignore much of the leadership/morale part of the game.

I don't know if its the most powerful, but its on my list.

Tough question, because it always depends on the squad.

For example:
Relentless is one of my favourites, but so many units wouldn't care less (Assault Marines with their pistols, Eldar with Assault 2 guns).

So I'll go with ATSKNF for it's overall usefulness. Any squad that isn't Fearless wants it and many times I'd change Fearless of it (not always tough).

 Jimsolo wrote:
And They Shall Know No Fear. No question in my mind.

I agree with this guy. Smash gets an honorable mention.

In my opinion there isn t a most powerful special rule, there are only to many armies who can spam and combine some special rules for cheap to become OP.

Tau with theire marker lights and LOS ignoring smart missiles making cover completely obsulete + EWO.
Eldar with pseudo rending and run&fire.

There are also some bad combinations of special rules:

Helldrakes - Flyer, fnp, torrent AP3, 360°, ignore 1-3 on the vehicle demage table.



Well I dont think ATSKNF is to strong.

It's Smash to me. Renders most of my anti-TMC stuff laughable, which isn't exactly cool.

 SarisKhan wrote:
It's Smash to me. Renders most of my anti-TMC stuff laughable, which isn't exactly cool.

Let's say its a standard MC (S6 with 5 attacks on the charge)

5th Ed (S6 + 2d6) = 5 attacks with an average of S13
6th Ed (S10 + d6) = 3 attacks at an average of S13.5

Smash makes MCs dangerous against T4/T5 stuff, but it's actually less dangerous against vehicles than the old ruleset.

As for TMCs, Carnifexes are S9, so they care naught.

Just important to note.


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Also, Zealot might be worth mentioning because it's a two for one deal.

I'm surprised not having read Reanimation Protocols yet... It's rather frustrating when you shoot a gozillion rounds,kill all but one scrawny warrior and then they rise again.

That aside, atsknf in this edition is a bit less powerful, since close combat is not so "encouraged"...

Battle focus and Support Fire are intense, too

My vote goes for ignore cover. ATSKNF is hyper-overrated and I question the objectivity of anyone who picks this rule. Ignore cover and smash both have bigger game effects than ATSKNF. If your opponent lets ATSKNF be a factor, that's on them, not ATSKNF being good. Because my lowly BA overcome lists with ATSKNF all the time. I don't need to sweep marines or worry about them regrouping if I *kill* them.

I've played without this rule in effect several times and rarely missed it.

Destroyer.

I want to say Ignore Cover, but I agree with one of the previous comments that 2+ cover should not be possible and definitely not in the amounts I've seen it. I honestly think that Ignores cover should only ignore terrain based cover.
For example: You have a unit in ruins with shrouded. It gets hit with a cover ignoring weapon and negates the 4+ from the ruins and changes the cover save from a 2+ to a 5+. It reduces the durability significantly, while not entirely negating the cover mechanic for units that pay a lot of points for their cover boosts.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I want to say Ignore Cover, but I agree with one of the previous comments that 2+ cover should not be possible and definitely not in the amounts I've seen it. I honestly think that Ignores cover should only ignore terrain based cover.
For example: You have a unit in ruins with shrouded. It gets hit with a cover ignoring weapon and negates the 4+ from the ruins and changes the cover save from a 2+ to a 5+. It reduces the durability significantly, while not entirely negating the cover mechanic for units that pay a lot of points for their cover boosts.

The 2+ started being a thing, especially en masse, because of ignores cover.

That doesn't seem like it makes sense. Because the increase in things that ignore cover, people brought units that had a higher cover save ignored?

I remember seeing lots of 2+/3+ cover before the Tau and Eldar got updated.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
That doesn't seem like it makes sense. Because the increase in things that ignore cover, people brought units that had a higher cover save ignored?

I remember seeing lots of 2+/3+ cover before the Tau and Eldar got updated.

They ignored my cover, so I am taking more units that need cover ignored, tau are only ignoring cover on 2 or 3 units tops.

having more of it means they struggle more and you can even dictate their targets to an extent.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I want to say Ignore Cover, but I agree with one of the previous comments that 2+ cover should not be possible and definitely not in the amounts I've seen it. I honestly think that Ignores cover should only ignore terrain based cover.
For example: You have a unit in ruins with shrouded. It gets hit with a cover ignoring weapon and negates the 4+ from the ruins and changes the cover save from a 2+ to a 5+. It reduces the durability significantly, while not entirely negating the cover mechanic for units that pay a lot of points for their cover boosts.

Which benefits MEQ the most as a result.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I want to say Ignore Cover, but I agree with one of the previous comments that 2+ cover should not be possible and definitely not in the amounts I've seen it. I honestly think that Ignores cover should only ignore terrain based cover.
For example: You have a unit in ruins with shrouded. It gets hit with a cover ignoring weapon and negates the 4+ from the ruins and changes the cover save from a 2+ to a 5+. It reduces the durability significantly, while not entirely negating the cover mechanic for units that pay a lot of points for their cover boosts.

Which benefits MEQ the most as a result.

Actually, bugs and orks, KFF and Venomthropes would be kings of cover.

Most scouts and units like striking scorpions and lictors would benefit immediately.

The Solitaire would literally laugh at tau, he would shred tau actually.

I Xenos have more forms of natural shrouding and stealth overall, white scars and dark angels are the only marines that would really really benefit.

A hard choice for me between Eternal Warrior and Ignores Cover so I'm going to leave them as a tie.

 scommy wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:
You're being cheated then. Can't take fnp vs instant death.

He got cheated twice, because you can't take a cover save and an invulnerable save for the same wound.

Sheesh your kidding right? This guy was rolling cover saves, invul, then FnP

With lasguns hitting he was rolling cover saves, armour saves, invul, then FnP. Sure its not some special Tyranid thing to get more saves?

Ouch, I think it sounds like the most powerful rules are the ones that people make up and then try to get away with. Yea, you only ever get one save, and you pick the best from the following: Cover, Armor, Invuln. Then, if the S of the attack is not double your T, you get a FnP (if your unit has FnP that is!). Id make sure his unit was actually supposed to have FnP.

Next time you play this guy, have the rulebook handy and tell him he has been doing it wrong. If he argues, ask him to point out the special rules or exceptions in his codex.

FnP at what save though :p i dont know if a 2+ FnP exists in game...

My vote would be eternal warrior

Elgrun wrote:
FnP at what save though :p i dont know if a 2+ FnP exists in game...

My vote would be eternal warrior

Corbulo. But he's only T4, so he gets IDed a lot.

Martel732 wrote:
My vote goes for ignore cover. ATSKNF is hyper-overrated and I question the objectivity of anyone who picks this rule. Ignore cover and smash both have bigger game effects than ATSKNF. If your opponent lets ATSKNF be a factor, that's on them, not ATSKNF being good. Because my lowly BA overcome lists with ATSKNF all the time. I don't need to sweep marines or worry about them regrouping if I *kill* them.

I've played without this rule in effect several times and rarely missed it.

'cause you must kill all marines of a unit to break their back, for most other armies it's enough to break their morale. If you don't kill all tacticals, guess what single model is going to automatically regroup, move 3", then move another 6" and then run up to the objective? Yes, ATSKNF means you have to play around it. Ignores cover is powerful, but it's limited due to it's scope whereas ATSKNF is given out more freely than AP2/3.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
My vote goes for ignore cover. ATSKNF is hyper-overrated and I question the objectivity of anyone who picks this rule. Ignore cover and smash both have bigger game effects than ATSKNF. If your opponent lets ATSKNF be a factor, that's on them, not ATSKNF being good. Because my lowly BA overcome lists with ATSKNF all the time. I don't need to sweep marines or worry about them regrouping if I *kill* them.

I've played without this rule in effect several times and rarely missed it.

'cause you must kill all marines of a unit to break their back, for most other armies it's enough to break their morale. If you don't kill all tacticals, guess what single model is going to automatically regroup, move 3", then move another 6" and then run up to the objective? Yes, ATSKNF means you have to play around it. Ignores cover is powerful, but it's limited due to it's scope whereas ATSKNF is given out more freely than AP2/3.

It's a rule that is taken for granted by way too many players.

With ATSKNF being so great, it's obvious that power armor armies are at the top of the competitive heap. Oh wait...

Let's face it. Chronologically, the wheels starting coming off the bus because of what? #1 was Heldrake (S6 AP3 IGNORES COVER that can reach out and touch almost anything), #2 Wave serpents (almost always twin linked D6+1 S7 AP - IGNORES COVER that can reach out and touch almost anything), #3 Tau, with their markerlights, Riptides, and Broadsides (can IGNORE COVER with powerful weapons that can reach out and touch almost anything).

Space marines have always had ATSKNF, and the competitive scene was never as broken as it is nowadays. The prevalence of Ignores Cover has made total army builds (and their parent codecies) irrelevant (ask the Dark Angels if they'd rather see Ignores cover or ANY OTHER USR removed from the game). Tyranids have been given a great upgrade to the venomthrope (shrouding to every unit that has a model within 6" of the venomthrope) THAT DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL in the competitive scene because of how commonplace Ignores Cover is.

But yeah. ATSKNF is pretty cool...

Even though I bear huge despise towards the Feel No Pain, I must say that the most powerful special rule right now marvels in its abundance; Ignores Cover.

ATSKNF was earth shattering in 3rd. Now, in 6th, it's meh.

If you guys are having trouble murdering marines, which is something even BA can do, maybe a list rebuild is in order.

 Voidwraith wrote:
With ATSKNF being so great, it's obvious that power armor armies are at the top of the competitive heap.

We're talking about the Strength of a USR, not an army.

The difference between the two is astronomical.

Consider ATSKNF being applied to Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, IG, or anything other than marines.

The result would be tremendous.

Shooting wave serpents at marines means the ignore cover rule has almost no effect since the armour save is usually better anyways. I would actually vote that the most broken rule is atsknf, its saved my opponents and grey knight more times than i can count, and its the reason that chaos space marines are less valued than their loyalist brother-in.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Shooting wave serpents at marines means the ignore cover rule has almost no effect since the armour save is usually better anyways. I would actually vote that the most broken rule is atsknf, its saved my opponents and grey knight more times than i can count, and its the reason that chaos space marines are less valued than their loyalist brother-in.

Sure, but people use cover, including stealth and shrouding, to help all kinds of units become more survivable. A wave serpent really doesn't help vs. someone using an armor save, but it also isn't hampered against a Nurgle Daemon Prince standing in terrain, a unit of whatever going to ground behind an aegis, etc.

I prefer to fight an army with the know no fear rule than an army with run shoot run or reanimation or ignore cover. From a game play perspective.

Usually because its not like you are fighting heaps of models with that rule and its no an issue most of the game. It also doesnt kill my men before i can kill them, the know no fear rule only applies when the unit with it is dying. Which is great. My eldar dont need to loose men to use any of their rules, nor do tau need to loose men to use marker lights.

In short, the space marine rule has only annoyed me once, but my own eldar army annoys me all the time as its a bit crazy what they can do.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Shooting wave serpents at marines means the ignore cover rule has almost no effect since the armour save is usually better anyways. I would actually vote that the most broken rule is atsknf, its saved my opponents and grey knight more times than i can count, and its the reason that chaos space marines are less valued than their loyalist brother-in.

Now shoot that wave serpent at land speeders or a list relying on cover. If your opponents are alive to use ATSKNF, that's on you.


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 ductvader wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
With ATSKNF being so great, it's obvious that power armor armies are at the top of the competitive heap.

We're talking about the Strength of a USR, not an army.

The difference between the two is astronomical.

Consider ATSKNF being applied to Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, IG, or anything other than marines.

The result would be tremendous.

I hadn't thought of it like that. Although Eldar are fearless riding in their Wave Serpents already. And we've seen IG with it. It's solid, but they are still just guardsmen. When defenses stood a chance in this game, this argument would be much more compelling.

 ductvader wrote:
We're talking about the Strength of a USR, not an army.

The difference between the two is astronomical.

Consider ATSKNF being applied to Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, IG, or anything other than marines.

The result would be tremendous.

That. Pretty much to the letter.

 Araenion wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
We're talking about the Strength of a USR, not an army.

The difference between the two is astronomical.

Consider ATSKNF being applied to Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, IG, or anything other than marines.

The result would be tremendous.

That. Pretty much to the letter.

Problem is the army is the basing measure, considering that the MEQ it's applied too it's not exactly not the greatest.

 Macok wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
I also don't know if I find it ironic, amusing, or maddeningly soul-crushing that Tau and Eldar players have the gall to say that marines are at an advantage to them with a straight face.

Do you know why is it possible? That may be because we are talking about a single rule, not about whole units, codexes etc.
Each and every discussion must end in: "but you are Eldar \ Tau so you must apologise for everything!!"?
Geez, how much pity do some of the players need..

Yes, most units are more powerful, that does not mean each and every SM rule is so weak that comparing them is "maddeningly soul-crushing". Really? Those are the words you use to compare ATSKNF to Ignore Covered? Drama much?

But marines should apologize for being poster boys, getting more spotlight, and having ATSKNF even though their army is worse than yours, right?

I would rather be accused of supposed "drama" rather than make blatantly hypocritical and ignorant posts.

Most powerful rule is Ignore Cover and Battle Focus. ATSKNF doesn't even change anything in terms of winning or losing other than making marines even worse. "Oh no, those Dark Angels know no fear! How will I ever win now?" said no player ever.

I would say Ignore Cover is only great because of how they've been pushing so many codexes with high AP values, take that away and if they were ap 5 or 4 specific and I'd be fine with it. However, that is not the case. Everything is AP2 and 3 at which it becomes pretty much broken. Battle Focus is possibly the most rediculous speacial rule that was every devised. When an army has the ability to move, shoot (Rending) and move again like they were all warpspiders.... then there's a problem. I might not have such a problem if they didn't have rending as then it's not too bad.. but as it stands right now... it's down right cheating.

also ATSKNF is a little bit rediculous, it should just allow people to be stubborn, or be able to re-roll a failed morale check....I mean them not being capablee of being sweeping advanced by a 30 man blob but being able to do so to said blob is cheating . Though I can't say it's not that big a deal right now... I mean not too marine players outside drop pod armies, and grey knights actually have the capability of getting in assault to be able to use said special ability

 Dezstiny wrote:

Most powerful rule is Ignore Cover and Battle Focus. ATSKNF doesn't even change anything in terms of winning or losing other than making marines even worse. "Oh no, those Dark Angels know no fear! How will I ever win now?" said no player ever.

I would say Ignore Cover is only great because of how they've been pushing so many codexes with high AP values, take that away and if they were ap 5 or 4 specific and I'd be fine with it. However, that is not the case. Everything is AP2 and 3 at which it becomes pretty much broken. Battle Focus is possibly the most rediculous speacial rule that was every devised. When an army has the ability to move, shoot (Rending) and move again like they were all warpspiders.... then there's a problem. I might not have such a problem if they didn't have rending as then it's not too bad.. but as it stands right now... it's down right cheating.

agreed, and as a result of that special rule even more speed was granted to the warp spiders...

but run shoot run, unlike most rules, is almost always usefull

(run shoot run for Da and guard-Does nothing against 24" guns like grey knights.) As a general rule i would say that the marines rule is still good and on most units regrouping is awesome.
(sorry i played eldar when they sucked and now that they are good i must be a band wagon jumper that's also a noob even though i have been playing since my pre-teens.)
(eventually it will balance out and eldar will suck again, and guess what,... I and many vets/fluff bunnies will still be playing them.)
(space marines should also apologize for being **** fan boys that got all the attention and now complaining that other xeno races are doing well.)
As for the mass amount of ap2, eldar don't care(other than pheonix lords) because our best armour is 3+. And the pseudo rending/battle focus is great yes i do agree and it works well for eldar, but the unit sucked/was overcosted and couldn't do any job over than dying. Now they are decent, but the thing is jet bikes the thing that couldn't use battle focus got the most power from the rending attacks.(and are also cheap), the days of aspect armies are dead.

But in short i believe atskfn is the best rule only because of it being on troops making them hold the objective in those crucial moments.

When did Eldar suck again?

Troops can't hold ANYTHING when they're dead. What part of this don't you understand?

Well whatever rule you guys decide is the best, it's likely that a Tau Commander is out there giving it someone who doesn't have it natively….

 Slayer222 wrote:
(run shoot run for Da and guard-Does nothing against 24" guns like grey knights.) As a general rule i would say that the marines rule is still good and on most units regrouping is awesome.
(sorry i played eldar when they sucked and now that they are good i must be a band wagon jumper that's also a noob even though i have been playing since my pre-teens.)
(eventually it will balance out and eldar will suck again, and guess what,... I and many vets/fluff bunnies will still be playing them.)
(space marines should also apologize for being **** fan boys that got all the attention and now complaining that other xeno races are doing well.)
As for the mass amount of ap2, eldar don't care(other than pheonix lords) because our best armour is 3+. And the pseudo rending/battle focus is great yes i do agree and it works well for eldar, but the unit sucked/was overcosted and couldn't do any job over than dying. Now they are decent, but the thing is jet bikes the thing that couldn't use battle focus got the most power from the rending attacks.(and are also cheap), the days of aspect armies are dead.

But in short i believe atskfn is the best rule only because of it being on troops making them hold the objective in those crucial moments.

Hey, I use a 99% Aspect eldar army, frankly battle focus is far superior over regrouping. I use it every single turn and kill units way outside my range, if they are within range i shoot then retreat backwards or into cover. battle focus woind because of its ability to stack with other special rules for extra pow pow.

 ductvader wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
With ATSKNF being so great, it's obvious that power armor armies are at the top of the competitive heap.

We're talking about the Strength of a USR, not an army.

The difference between the two is astronomical.

Consider ATSKNF being applied to Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, IG, or anything other than marines.

The result would be tremendous.

ATSKNF has technically been available to Tau and IG since 6th dropped. I don't recall any Tau lists that really got away with abusing it, but I do remember that there were guard blobs using SM characters to abuse ATSKNF for a while. Don't think they amounted to much though.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Most powerful rule is Ignore Cover and Battle Focus. ATSKNF doesn't even change anything in terms of winning or losing other than making marines even worse. "Oh no, those Dark Angels know no fear! How will I ever win now?" said no player ever.

I'm sad that I missed this reply earlier. Exalted for comedy and truth.

I hate any rule that allows for re-rollable 2+ or 3+ inv saves. Makes the unit near unkillable.

Guys, I think we can all agree the most powerful rule is...Instinctive Behavior (Lurk). Think about it, how many times have you played a KT game against a horde of Termagants, just to have them turn around and run away, on the top of turn 1?

No no it is all about Instinctive Behavior(Consume) there's nothing better than a charge that promptly turns into the enemy eating themself until nobody is left. CYNIMATIC!

The strongest rule is Independent Character.

By Far.

 ductvader wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
With ATSKNF being so great, it's obvious that power armor armies are at the top of the competitive heap.

We're talking about the Strength of a USR, not an army.

The difference between the two is astronomical.

Consider ATSKNF being applied to Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, IG, or anything other than marines.

The result would be tremendous.

An army-wide special rule that not only doesn't horribly punish me but is actually useful? Not if GW has anything to say about it.

A power armour army IS at the top of the competitive heap, but so few people play it, nobody really understands its true power.

Oh, and it doesn't have ATSKNF. :p

The Helldrake only broke things because it has the same effect on Marines that heavy flamers have on the other armies in the game. Giving Marines a 4+ save instead of a 3+ save would have been exactly as powerful.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A power armour army IS at the top of the competitive heap, but so few people play it, nobody really understands its true power.

Oh, and it doesn't have ATSKNF. :p

The Helldrake only broke things because it has the same effect on Marines that heavy flamers have on the other armies in the game. Giving Marines a 4+ save instead of a 3+ save would have been exactly as powerful.

Ehhh... We have the Heldrake, Plague Marines are OK, Spawn are OK, Zombies are OK, Obliterators are OK... I guess... But we don't have much more.

And in case you're talking about Sisters... Ehhhh... No.

Plus, to my knowledge Heavy Flamers are not a 360 degree torrent weapon mounted on one of the toughest flyers in all of 40K.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A power armour army IS at the top of the competitive heap, but so few people play it, nobody really understands its true power.

Oh, and it doesn't have ATSKNF. :p

The Helldrake only broke things because it has the same effect on Marines that heavy flamers have on the other armies in the game. Giving Marines a 4+ save instead of a 3+ save would have been exactly as powerful.

Except in tournaments it's been placing very poorly.

(space marines should also apologize for being **** fan boys that got all the attention and now complaining that other xeno races are doing well.)

Except Aside from 3rd edition, Xenos have been on Top (Eldar specifically)

2nd Edition: Eldar
3rd Edition: Chaos/BA
4th: Eldar/Tau
5th: Transporthammer: GK/Necrons/SW
6th: Tau/Eldar.

Amusingly, the top-tier power armour army I was talking about is actually Codex: Adepta Sororitas, Not Codex: Baledrake.

Heavy Flamers are 360 firing, normally, and being on a flier is not the only way to get good mobility. Being a flier is not inherently broken.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Amusingly, the top-tier power armour army I was talking about is actually Codex: Adepta Sororitas, Not Codex: Baledrake.

Heavy Flamers are 360 firing, normally, and being on a flier is not the only way to get good mobility. Being a flier is not inherently broken.

My mistake, I just rarely see such praise of the Sisters.

That's because people take one look at "MEq but lower Str and T and not ASHKTNERG" and think "OH, they must suck REALLY bad."

Especially people who haven't actually played or played against them. But twelve scouting, ignores-cover meltaguns are Baledrake-level brokenness, and 20-strong Sisters squads with Priest support can tarpit anything and kill most everything else.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That's because people take one look at "MEq but lower Str and T and not ASHKTNERG" and think "OH, they must suck REALLY bad."

Especially people who haven't actually played or played against them. But twelve scouting, ignores-cover meltaguns are Baledrake-level brokenness, and 20-strong Sisters squads with Priest support can tarpit anything and kill most everything else.

I'm not saying that Sisters are a bad army, like you I think they're a lot stronger than what people give them credit for, but they're not as strong as Eldar or Tau.

I do fairly well against Tau with my Sisters, to be honest. I'm fast enough to take out his backfield stuff and don't have to rely on gimmicks to win, since I can just march across the board in large numbers and actually bolter down his Riptide, if I don't Exorcist it.

You need 270 bolter shots on average to kill a Riptide without FNP. I'm not sure what your enemy is doing for all the turns you're stood shooting bolters at his Riptides, but I have a sneaking suspicion that he's doing it wrong.

^ That. If you have 135 Battle Sisters standing around able to gun down his Riptide in Rapid Fire range, I suspect something might be fishy.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I do fairly well against Tau with my Sisters, to be honest. I'm fast enough to take out his backfield stuff and don't have to rely on gimmicks to win, since I can just march across the board in large numbers and actually bolter down his Riptide, if I don't Exorcist it.

How would you exorcist it? They'll pop their thing in order to gain a 3++ save regardless if they are smart, at least the few times I've seen it tried. They don't really need to overcharge for sisters that much.

Back on topic.

I think the most powerful special rule is probably something rare like God or War because it allows you to choose to pass or fail at will, which in itself is mental.
Although reserve manipulation is also a very useful rule.

Now if we're discussing the most overly abundant rule which affects games the most I'd go with ATSKNF and ignores cover, because ignores cover prevents a lot of rules being useful including special abilities as does ATSKNF. However ignores cover has a more prominent status due to it largely contributing to the 'power level' of 2 armies that can throw it around a lot.

On a separate note i think the cover system needs a rethink it clearly doesn't work at present.

Wow I'm suprised I was the only one so far to say Psyker for most powerful USR, I know ignores cover can be a real pain but it doesn't really matter vs a rerollable 2++

Psykers aren't that bad themselves, it's just the tables are complete trash. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use Pyromancy for example. Psykers are only powerful when they have either enough levels to get the powers they want or the primaris is an autopick over 3/4 of the table. Or when you have both. I'm looking at you and your ridiculous helmet erection, Farseer.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Psykers aren't that bad themselves, it's just the tables are complete trash. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use Pyromancy for example. Psykers are only powerful when they have either enough levels to get the powers they want or the primaris is an autopick over 3/4 of the table. Or when you have both. I'm looking at you and your ridiculous helmet erection, Farseer.

Or when you're Tyranids and you have an amazing table.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Wow I'm suprised I was the only one so far to say Psyker for most powerful USR, I know ignores cover can be a real pain but it doesn't really matter vs a rerollable 2++

Um, Psyker has nothing to do with the rerollable 2++.

The rerollable 2++ is an artifact combined with the Daemon and Daemon of Tzeentch rules. Nothing to do with Psyker powers.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
Wow I'm suprised I was the only one so far to say Psyker for most powerful USR, I know ignores cover can be a real pain but it doesn't really matter vs a rerollable 2++

Um, Psyker has nothing to do with the rerollable 2++.

The rerollable 2++ is an artifact combined with the Daemon and Daemon of Tzeentch rules. Nothing to do with Psyker powers.

And Divination to give them a 4++. Daemon of Tzeentch doesn't give better saves, it just lets you reroll 1's.

MasterOfGaunts wrote:

Well I dont think ATSKNF is to strong.

It gets my vote for being useful for any unit. Auto regroup and extra 3" moves are nice, but what really settles it for me is that you can't be wiped out in sweeping advance.

 soomemafia wrote:

MasterOfGaunts wrote:

Well I dont think ATSKNF is to strong.

It gets my vote for being useful for any unit. Auto regroup and extra 3" moves are nice, but what really settles it for me is that you can't be wiped out in sweeping advance.

Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

Martel732 wrote:


Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

You keep talking about marines while most of us are talking about the rule.

ATSKNF is a powerful rule. Ignore Cover is powerful too, but imagine if only lasguns could take it. Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

I was working on the assumption that 'special rule' only meant those rules listed in the Special Rules section of the main rulebook.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
The strongest rule is Independent Character.

By Far.

However, I'd overlooked that one. I'd agree that it's probably the most beneficial rule for any individual model to have. A 2+ roll to avoid almost any damage, which stacks with your normal saving throw? That's amazing and it's only one of the benefits of being an IC.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

You keep talking about marines while most of us are talking about the rule.

ATSKNF is a powerful rule. Ignore Cover is powerful too, but imagine if only lasguns could take it. Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

Is it? FNP has been mentioned, but it's terrible on a unit like Repentia vs someone like a 30 strong unit of tyranids.

If you ignore what units things are on, then you have no real basis of understanding how useful the rule actually is.

Perfect Organism wrote:
I was working on the assumption that 'special rule' only meant those rules listed in the Special Rules section of the main rulebook.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
The strongest rule is Independent Character.

By Far.

However, I'd overlooked that one. I'd agree that it's probably the most beneficial rule for any individual model to have. A 2+ roll to avoid almost any damage, which stacks with your normal saving throw? That's amazing and it's only one of the benefits of being an IC.

I also concede to IC, if every model had IC we'd have some pretty ridiculous and complicated shenanigans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
If you ignore what units things are on, then you have no real basis of understanding how useful the rule actually is.

Actually, then you understand how good it is overall in comparison to all other rules in all aspects of the game.

You've just provided a basis for why FnP isn't the strongest by applying it across multiple units, that's what we're getting at.

Sustained Assault from 3rd ed Barroah rules. Basically the same as a furiosos talon rule but a special rule and not wargear. I can't remember if anyone else has had that rule since.

Speaking from the Special Rules chapter (in the BRB) it would have to be ignores cover. Look at it this way, if you could give a special rules to an entire army...which would you choose.

For many armies this would be ignores cover.

If you are looking at the Entire BRB it is the Battle Brothers rule.

If you are looking outside the BRB it is Destroyer.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

You keep talking about marines while most of us are talking about the rule.

ATSKNF is a powerful rule. Ignore Cover is powerful too, but imagine if only lasguns could take it. Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

Is it? FNP has been mentioned, but it's terrible on a unit like Repentia vs someone like a 30 strong unit of tyranids.

If you ignore what units things are on, then you have no real basis of understanding how useful the rule actually is.

Which is partly my point, I just didn't go into enough detail. FnP gets a lot better on things like Riptides, or units with re-rollable invulns already. ATSKNF is still a great rule, even on marines, they're just a little lower on the power scale than Eldar and Tau (but are otherwise fine). However, ATSKNF is a very powerful rule on large blobs of durable infantry, or on CC oriented models, or on models that are weak in CC and don't want to swept.

Same goes for ignore cover. Ignore cover on lasguns is mediocre at best, but awesome on a Baleflamer.

I should specify that judging a rule based on the contents of the power level of the codex its predominantly found in (ATSKNF for marines) is not a good yardstick for determining the strength of the rule.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Sustained Assault from 3rd ed Barroah rules. Basically the same as a furiosos talon rule but a special rule and not wargear. I can't remember if anyone else has had that rule since.

One of the SW characters has a number of bonus attacks that equals the number of models he killed in the last round of combat.

Is that close? I saw him work his way up to 20something versus orks...it was...my favorite 40k moment ever.

Now if we were talking about sheer number of benefits ATSKNF wins.

NO sweep -huge benefit as it allows the best use of our weapons are useless if it comes into play.
Auto Re-group and act normally = huge.
Ignore Fear (which is by the way the worst special rule in the BRB)

 ductvader wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Sustained Assault from 3rd ed Barroah rules. Basically the same as a furiosos talon rule but a special rule and not wargear. I can't remember if anyone else has had that rule since.

One of the SW characters has a number of bonus attacks that equals the number of models he killed in the last round of combat.

Is that close? I saw him work his way up to 20something versus orks...it was...my favorite 40k moment ever.

Oh yeah saga of the warrior born? Something like that. Very close but not the same. Sustained Assault you could add another to hit roll for every hit you landed. And the bonus hits could Also generate hits. It took forever to roll out.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Sustained Assault from 3rd ed Barroah rules. Basically the same as a furiosos talon rule but a special rule and not wargear. I can't remember if anyone else has had that rule since.

One of the SW characters has a number of bonus attacks that equals the number of models he killed in the last round of combat.

Is that close? I saw him work his way up to 20something versus orks...it was...my favorite 40k moment ever.

Oh yeah saga of the warrior born? Something like that. Very close but not the same. Sustained Assault you could add another to hit roll for every hit you landed. And the bonus hits could Also generate hits. It took forever to roll out.

Dang, Old One Eye also does it, but only once...every CC hit he gets generates one more attack each. He can have 3 S10 HoW hits, 10 S10 Attacks, and I believe he's got a S8 tail attack but I'm not sure on that.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

You keep talking about marines while most of us are talking about the rule.

ATSKNF is a powerful rule. Ignore Cover is powerful too, but imagine if only lasguns could take it. Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

I'm with Breng on this: I'd still rather have ignore cover army wide than ATSKNF army wide.

Martel732 wrote:


I'm with Breng on this: I'd still rather have ignore cover army wide than ATSKNF army wide.

And I'd rather have both.

Point is, ATSKNF is still a powerful rule. I'm on the fence which one I'd rather have army wide, but I'm not denying that I wouldn't want ATSKNF for my blob guard without a character tax.

SM players seem to not be able to wrap their heads around why CSM are so crappy when I try to explain how game changing ATSKNF is.

 Blacksails wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

You keep talking about marines while most of us are talking about the rule.

ATSKNF is a powerful rule. Ignore Cover is powerful too, but imagine if only lasguns could take it. Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

Is it? FNP has been mentioned, but it's terrible on a unit like Repentia vs someone like a 30 strong unit of tyranids.

If you ignore what units things are on, then you have no real basis of understanding how useful the rule actually is.

Which is partly my point, I just didn't go into enough detail. FnP gets a lot better on things like Riptides, or units with re-rollable invulns already. ATSKNF is still a great rule, even on marines, they're just a little lower on the power scale than Eldar and Tau (but are otherwise fine). However, ATSKNF is a very powerful rule on large blobs of durable infantry, or on CC oriented models, or on models that are weak in CC and don't want to swept.

Same goes for ignore cover. Ignore cover on lasguns is mediocre at best, but awesome on a Baleflamer.

I should specify that judging a rule based on the contents of the power level of the codex its predominantly found in (ATSKNF for marines) is not a good yardstick for determining the strength of the rule.

Problem is, that's not really the judging by which we are judging it by, considering the first posts thoughts on it based on unit.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
Wow I'm suprised I was the only one so far to say Psyker for most powerful USR, I know ignores cover can be a real pain but it doesn't really matter vs a rerollable 2++

Um, Psyker has nothing to do with the rerollable 2++.

The rerollable 2++ is an artifact combined with the Daemon and Daemon of Tzeentch rules. Nothing to do with Psyker powers.

And Divination to give them a 4++. Daemon of Tzeentch doesn't give better saves, it just lets you reroll 1's.

Well there is also the seer coucil with the rerollable shenanigans

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

You keep talking about marines while most of us are talking about the rule.

ATSKNF is a powerful rule. Ignore Cover is powerful too, but imagine if only lasguns could take it. Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

Is it? FNP has been mentioned, but it's terrible on a unit like Repentia vs someone like a 30 strong unit of tyranids.

If you ignore what units things are on, then you have no real basis of understanding how useful the rule actually is.

Which is partly my point, I just didn't go into enough detail. FnP gets a lot better on things like Riptides, or units with re-rollable invulns already. ATSKNF is still a great rule, even on marines, they're just a little lower on the power scale than Eldar and Tau (but are otherwise fine). However, ATSKNF is a very powerful rule on large blobs of durable infantry, or on CC oriented models, or on models that are weak in CC and don't want to swept.

Same goes for ignore cover. Ignore cover on lasguns is mediocre at best, but awesome on a Baleflamer.

I should specify that judging a rule based on the contents of the power level of the codex its predominantly found in (ATSKNF for marines) is not a good yardstick for determining the strength of the rule.

Problem is, that's not really the judging by which we are judging it by, considering the first posts thoughts on it based on unit.

Martel later wrote that they hadn't considered just viewing the rule instead of the unit with the rule.

herpguy wrote:
SM players seem to not be able to wrap their heads around why CSM are so crappy when I try to explain how game changing ATSKNF is.

I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF and never missed it honestly. My marines are DYING not RUNNING or BEING SWEPT. DYING. Let me repeat again: DYING. Not rolling morale. CSM are EXACTLY in the same boat as C:SM. C:SM has slightly more competitive units, but at the end of the day, it's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Martel732 wrote:

herpguy wrote:
SM players seem to not be able to wrap their heads around why CSM are so crappy when I try to explain how game changing ATSKNF is.

I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF and never missed it honestly. My marines are DYING not RUNNING or BEING SWEPT. DYING. Let me repeat again: DYING. Not rolling morale. CSM are EXACTLY in the same boat as C:SM. C:SM has slightly more competitive units, but at the end of the day, it's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Well if they rearranged those deck chairs so they were at the stern of the ship, there is a good chance that Jack would not have died.


You don't realise how often you have to take morale tests, until you lose ATSKHF. Oh you have eight men. I killed two. Oh look you rolled boxcars, off the table you go! At least this happens to me, once one of my units is running, they barely come back :(

 welshhoppo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

herpguy wrote:
SM players seem to not be able to wrap their heads around why CSM are so crappy when I try to explain how game changing ATSKNF is.

I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF and never missed it honestly. My marines are DYING not RUNNING or BEING SWEPT. DYING. Let me repeat again: DYING. Not rolling morale. CSM are EXACTLY in the same boat as C:SM. C:SM has slightly more competitive units, but at the end of the day, it's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Well if they rearranged those deck chairs so they were at the stern of the ship, there is a good chance that Jack would not have died.


You don't realise how often you have to take morale tests, until you lose ATSKHF. Oh you have eight men. I killed two. Oh look you rolled boxcars, off the table you go! At least this happens to me, once one of my units is running, they barely come back :(

My units are usually never so close to the table edge. And 6th ed has made rallying very forgiving. And, yeah, I do realize how often I make them. It's actually a small minute advantage that BA still have is I'm always rolling a 9 LD and most C:SM lists are now rolling 8 LD. I'm forced to pay for LD, and can't skimp out. Marines aren't immune to pinning, which is usually the only LD roll I care about.

The way I look at it is this. If you told me I could swap ATSKNF for Ignores cover on all my SM units (even if you limit it just to units with ATSKNF) I would do it.

Devestators with ignores cover plasma cannons
Dev Centurions or Grav bikers with Ignores cover, S6 thunderfire ignoring cover, etc.

The big difference is that some armies rely on cover for durabilty, few armies rely on forcing their opponent to break and run for offensive ability (perhaps in part due to ATSKNF)

Regardless, Independent Character already wins in my book.

Imagine every model having that...now we've got Carnifex/Trygon Broods, We've got the Vindicare sitting with henchmen, Look at Crowe and Mephiston! Look at Guard blobs unforming and reforming into new squads at will.

IC wins.

 Blacksails wrote:
Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

Maybe that's what your discussion is. I'm having the "this rule is breaking the game IN THE REAL WORLD because of the way it CAN be applied by the codecies in the current rule-set" conversation. Ignores cover is the undisputed champion of that discussion.

Joining the fairy-tale "what-if" discussion, I'd throw the DAEMON special rule out there for consideration. 5+ invuls on top of whatever your normal armor save would be...I think we're done here.

 ductvader wrote:
Regardless, Independent Character already wins in my book.

Imagine every model having that...now we've got Carnifex/Trygon Broods, We've got the Vindicare sitting with henchmen, Look at Crowe and Mephiston! Look at Guard blobs unforming and reforming into new squads at will.

IC wins.

Ha, that's what helped killed Masque for Chaos Daemons.

Masque wasn't an IC in the last book either...but IC would be OK, but I don't think it would be a broken as people think.

I think it's intercepted, skyfire.

I know that's 2 but as they're so often combined it might as well be one, and it just means death for so many flyers before they get to do anything

Breng77 wrote:
Masque wasn't an IC in the last book either...but IC would be OK, but I don't think it would be a broken as people think.

IC becomes as strong as your imagination...I could take 4 Astral Aiming Purgators, a single Warp Quaking Striker and drop them into a GK Paladin squad.

If you've ever played kill team, you know how strong some units can be once they get to be their own models...hormagaunts would run as solo units and ignore IB 1-3 rolls...which would be the perfect way to negate markerlights as they'd lose most of their ignores cover effectiveness as they can't ignore cover on 30 separate models.

 ductvader wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Masque wasn't an IC in the last book either...but IC would be OK, but I don't think it would be a broken as people think.

IC becomes as strong as your imagination...I could take 4 Astral Aiming Purgators, a single Warp Quaking Striker and drop them into a GK Paladin squad.

If you've ever played kill team, you know how strong some units can be once they get to be their own models...hormagaunts would run as solo units and ignore IB 1-3 rolls...which would be the perfect way to negate markerlights as they'd lose most of their ignores cover effectiveness as they can't ignore cover on 30 separate models.

But they'd be able to take IC Riptides and...


Oh, wait.

So you are, allowing units to completely break down...if you allow that then it is very powerful.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Sustained Assault from 3rd ed Barroah rules. Basically the same as a furiosos talon rule but a special rule and not wargear. I can't remember if anyone else has had that rule since.

One of the SW characters has a number of bonus attacks that equals the number of models he killed in the last round of combat.

Is that close? I saw him work his way up to 20something versus orks...it was...my favorite 40k moment ever.

Oh yeah saga of the warrior born? Something like that. Very close but not the same. Sustained Assault you could add another to hit roll for every hit you landed. And the bonus hits could Also generate hits. It took forever to roll out.

Aren't you thinking of "Web Of Skulls", a 3rd edition wargear for Eldar Swooping Hawk Exarchs?

No, definitely "Sustained Assault." It was Baharroth's special power, but Swooping Hawk Exarchs could buy it too.

It wasn't totally broken because Baharroth was only S4, and Swooping Hawk Exarchs can't take power weapons.

 ductvader wrote:
Regardless, Independent Character already wins in my book.

Imagine every model having that...now we've got Carnifex/Trygon Broods, We've got the Vindicare sitting with henchmen, Look at Crowe and Mephiston! Look at Guard blobs unforming and reforming into new squads at will.

IC wins.

Oh man, I have a headache just imagining the puzzle of challenges it would create!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, definitely "Sustained Assault." It was Baharroth's special power, but Swooping Hawk Exarchs could buy it too.

It wasn't totally broken because Baharroth was only S4, and Swooping Hawk Exarchs can't take power weapons.

Well, I think Swooping Exarchs could take Power Weapons, but since Web of Skulls was a special weapon it could neither be used in combination nor selected together with them.

Also, Special Characters were "opponent's approval" in 3rd edition, so the opponent could simply say "no" to Baharroth which severely limited the special rules' power

The black mace's special rule on taking a toughness test on a WPN with +2 wound. If you lose the toughness test your model is removed from the table. Regardless of whether you have feel no pain, eternal warrior, or 3 wounds left.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
The black mace's special rule on taking a toughness test on a WPN with +2 wound. If you lose the toughness test your model is removed from the table. Regardless of whether you have feel no pain, eternal warrior, or 3 wounds left.

Well, JotWW, the Hyperstone Maze, Necron Monoliths, The Red Terror, and GK Champions all have similar effects, and many are better and worse in different ways.

 ductvader wrote:

Johnnytorrance wrote:
The black mace's special rule on taking a toughness test on a WPN with +2 wound. If you lose the toughness test your model is removed from the table. Regardless of whether you have feel no pain, eternal warrior, or 3 wounds left.

Well, JotWW, the Hyperstone Maze, Necron Monoliths, The Red Terror, and GK Champions all have similar effects, and many are better and worse in different ways.

I discovered the black mace playing against my son. Thought that weapon was a crock of Shoot. Took out my SM captain, along with 4 other idiots who can't make a toughness save. Lol

So, reading the whole thread, I have come to this conclusion.
And They Shall Know No Fear is actually just fine.
It is the Sweeping Advance rule that is overpowered.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
So, reading the whole thread, I have come to this conclusion.
And They Shall Know No Fear is actually just fine.
It is the Sweeping Advance rule that is overpowered.

At least...6th got rid of fearless saves.

Ah, good old "No Retreat", where Trygons would suddenly have heart attacks because a few termagants got squished.

How I celebrated when that was removed.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
So, reading the whole thread, I have come to this conclusion.
And They Shall Know No Fear is actually just fine.
It is the Sweeping Advance rule that is overpowered.

I still think automatically regrouping and then getting a normal turn is quite an improvement when trying to claim a late objective with a below quarter squad, etc...

I had that happen so many times. A single marine managing to go from running to claiming a last minute objective wins games.

Here's a new contender;

"Hard to Hit".

Serpent Shields.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I had that happen so many times. A single marine managing to go from running to claiming a last minute objective wins games.

You're the Tau. You have the firepower to be more thorough than that.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
Serpent Shields.

If all my termagants had serpent shields...

 ductvader wrote:

 Glorywarrior wrote:
Serpent Shields.

If all my termagants had serpent shields...

I'm pretty sure it's wargear...

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 Glorywarrior wrote:
Serpent Shields.

If all my termagants had serpent shields...

I'm pretty sure it's wargear...

Good point...it is wargear.

 ductvader wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 Glorywarrior wrote:
Serpent Shields.

If all my termagants had serpent shields...

I'm pretty sure it's wargear...

Good point...it is wargear.

Alright, someone make a "Most Powerful Wargear" thread.


Edit: just made it. It's here.

Reanimation Protocols. Almost all Necrons getting back up once you've killed them is just so......

As a person who plays both marines and xenos....

And they shall know no fear.

It is amazing. Most marine players take it for granted...until they don't have it.

God of War.

Calgar could be a stock Tactical Marine and he'd still be the best special character in the game as long as he had God of War.

davethepak wrote:
As a person who plays both marines and xenos....

And they shall know no fear.

It is amazing. Most marine players take it for granted...until they don't have it.

I've voluntarily played without it. It's not that big of deal in 6th. Marines are too easy to kill for it to be a big deal.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
God of War.

Calgar could be a stock Tactical Marine and he'd still be the best special character in the game as long as he had God of War.

And how does Swarmlord turn Calgar into a wimpering pup by besting him tactically and not have a boardwide buffing ability like him?

 ductvader wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
God of War.

Calgar could be a stock Tactical Marine and he'd still be the best special character in the game as long as he had God of War.

And how does Swarmlord turn Calgar into a wimpering pup by besting him tactically and not have a boardwide buffing ability like him?

Because Calgar won the rematch?

nobody wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
God of War.

Calgar could be a stock Tactical Marine and he'd still be the best special character in the game as long as he had God of War.

And how does Swarmlord turn Calgar into a wimpering pup by besting him tactically and not have a boardwide buffing ability like him?

Because Calgar won the rematch?

In the canonized new fluff, and even then he doesn't come off so well.

Regardless, in the new fluff he's still running away from Swarmy's tactical genius.

nobody wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
God of War.

Calgar could be a stock Tactical Marine and he'd still be the best special character in the game as long as he had God of War.

And how does Swarmlord turn Calgar into a wimpering pup by besting him tactically and not have a boardwide buffing ability like him?

Because Calgar won the rematch?

Honestly, who thinks that fight was actually a fair contest and not Calgar sicking his Devestators on the Swarmlord then walking up and punching the already dying Swarmlord in the face and claiming it as his kill?

 Xx_ZLOBENIA_xX wrote:
Reanimation Protocols. Almost all Necrons getting back up once you've killed them is just so......

THIS, a million times.

As for USRs, I'd say...

... deepstrike/scouts/outflank.

Well used, those three rules can make or break games. Being able to position yourself to strike your opponent's softer spots is a huge advantage.

Im going to toss Homing into the field. Just imagine if you had destroyer weapons with that, it would even be a game anymore just see who goes first then game over.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Im going to toss Homing into the field. Just imagine if you had destroyer weapons with that, it would even be a game anymore just see who goes first then game over.

'
I do agree that homing would be powerful, it's just that it is on only one weapon in existance.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
I'll vote for, 'The Rule of Cool'.

this