The other day when fellow dakka user desubot suggested inquisition priests with smash and a power maul, I thought that would be an expensive but pretty neat trick. But the more I thought about it the better the idea became. Consider the following unit:

2 ordo xenos inquisitors with hammer hand, one with rad granades, both with force swords.
4 or 5 priests, 2 or 3 with power mauls
7 or 8 acolytes with lp & ccw
Landraider crusader with psybolt ammo
~550pts.

Priests roll on ld10 so will usually pass. 1 rolls for rthe reroll to wound, 1 rolls for the reroll for armour save, the other 2 or 3 roll for smash.
Being zelots the unit also gets rerolls to hit on the charge. If using the smash attack rather than just smash, the 2 or 3 priests will get 2 st 8 ap 2 at initiative attacks each, rerolling to hit and wound. The two hammerhands take this upto st10, whilst the rad granades lower opponents toughness by 1, making t6 MCs t5. Even if the opponent makes a challenge (supposing it is a character MC), you just deny, so 1 priest cannot attack. This leaves 2 or 4 attacks (depending if you took 2 or 3) rerolling to hit on a 4+ and rerolling to wound on a 2+ with no armour saves allowed, each attack causing ID (4 attacks cause ever so slightly under 3 ID wounds on a fex brood, meaning most the time the brood will be wiped in one round). If the opponent could not challenge, that is an extra 2 attacks. The acolytes are wound sponges who will have 3 st 5 (wounding on 4+) attacks rerolling to hit and wound themselves for the ones who survive. If the opponent does somehow manage to down all the acolytes then the priests have a 4++ rerollable themselves. Tbf the extra armour save priest isnt really needed either unless going for a second or third fex brood.
This isnt a point sink death star as after the unit takes too many casualties the inquisitors can move off to buff other units and the landraider is still around to support or has drawn plenty of enemy firepower itself, and lets be honest - a psybolt crusader is FAR better than the usual raiders. The actual cost of the unit minus the landraider and inquisitors that can be used elsewhere afterwards only comes to between 101pts (for 3 priests, 2 with power mauls and 9 acolytes - this unit will still get the same job done) to 198 pts (5 priests, 3 with powermauls and 7 acolytes - gets the rerollable save plus more ID attacks, better if the mc can challenge as you will still have 4 attacks so can pretty much guarantee an insta gib).
Focus all the anti troop firepower you can bring to bear (which can be A LOT in an inquisition list) against any bubble wrapping gaunt units to clear the way for the raider.
Against T5 MCs you don't even need the hammerhands and the inquisitors can instead have prescience to buff other units.
Support this unit with dirt cheap acolyte units in chimeras to target any unit that will potentially tarpit the unit once the MC/MC brood is gone.


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Btw the initial unit put forward is the more expensive version.


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I have been led to believe hammerhand stacks and you test priests on the highest ld score of the unit since it is a ld test. These are of course important factors.


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This was also meant to be in tactics. Just seen it is in army lists. Third time this has happened with touch screen phone... grrrrrr!

If this works.....then this seems crazy...

It gets even better against multiwound t4 units as they will have double the attacks as they can just go for smash rather than smash attack, giving each priest 4 st 7 ap 2 attacks at initiative rerolling to hit and wound attacks and the t4 will be reduced to t3 for the ID. From 3 priests that would average 9 hits, and about 8 to 9 ID wounds. Not counting the 10 st 5 ap 3 reroll to hit and wound off the inquisitors and the mass st5 ap- attacks off the acolytes and priest/s without mauls, also rerolling to hit and wound.

It works, but it is 500-600 points and if your ride gets blown up, you are dead. Also, you only get one shot at it. If you kill the unit you charge, you will now die horribly to any shooting that comes your way. You can also take the scout book, if I remember correctly to make it even funnier.

Am I the one to say it? What an awesome, broken game we play.

True but then they have invested in shooting the raider. I don't really class the raiders points as part of the unit because it pays for itself with 12 st5 ap5 tl shots, 4 st7 ap4 tl rending shots and a multimelta to boot. Also the tyranids best anti raider units are the mcs - the mcs you want the unit to get near. Unless the opponents shooting utterly wipes out the unit, you have 2 inquisitors who can move off to buff other units. So you have lost only a 101 to 198pt unit, which isnt a big deal for the potential damage it can cause.
Also if supported with other units, whilst the opponents fire power is directed at your av14 landraider and sub 200pt unit (with some 4++s in there), all your other fragile yet exceptionally shooty units haven't been focused on. Its win-win in my books that. Thats the inquisitions main weakness - all the powerfully shooty units are fragile, so if you've made the opponent focus on a raider you're letting them play into your hands.


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roxor08 wrote:
Am I the one to say it? What an awesome, broken game we play.

Haha it is definitely a touch broken!

On the other hand, you don't really need a crazy trick to annihilate nids.

I don't know... not faced a new dex fex spam yet so couldn't say, but I will admit the prospect worries me. It works against other mcs too. Although not as effectively - riptides can try and get away and tau fire power should bring this to the ground, wraithknight are t8 so maybe no ID but plenty of wounds onto the thing. Combat deamons it'll screw IF it can catch them, but then just leave it near units they want to get at. Nobs, wraiths (although 3++ dilutes it), most non EW ICs, Mephy, non mc tyranid multiwounds, cents, etc would have a cause for concern too.


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Hadn't thought about it until now - but also putting 6 st 10 ap2 hits on tanks...

Correct me if I'm wrong.... ( which could be as I'm not great with these dex) Maul gives you S+2... priest base S is 3.. so just with the maul and smash.. your at s10... there is no need for hammer hand.

My next question is, how are you getting them into the landraider? Is there something in the codex that lets them overstep the BB rule of no allies in transports? You just using it as a screen?

All three main types of Landraider are dedicated transport for inquisition, plus they get psybolts :-)! Also unfortunately strength buffs don't work like that. The multiplier comes before the addition. So it would be st3 x2 then +2.


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I wish it were otherwise!

It seems a lot to spend on extra units when an ap3 force sword with boosted strength and re-roll to hit and wound will pop MC too.

 Roci wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong.... ( which could be as I'm not great with these dex) Maul gives you S+2... priest base S is 3.. so just with the maul and smash.. your at s10... there is no need for hammer hand.

Multiply then add. So S3*2 +2 = S8

 Roci wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong.... ( which could be as I'm not great with these dex) Maul gives you S+2... priest base S is 3.. so just with the maul and smash.. your at s10... there is no need for hammer hand.

My next question is, how are you getting them into the landraider? Is there something in the codex that lets them overstep the BB rule of no allies in transports? You just using it as a screen?

S3x2+2=8. You apply the addition after the multiplication.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
It seems a lot to spend on extra units when an ap3 force sword with boosted strength and re-roll to hit and wound will pop MC too.

Those 10 st 5 ap3 attacks will on average (against ws 4 or better opponents) cause about 5 wounds on a t6 but have no force points for the weapon after casting hammerhand. 2 priests however outright kill 3 fexes on average. Besides - the cheap version only costs 101pts more and you still get those 4 ID attacks, reroll to wound and hit skills and 9 wound sponges... thats pretty cheap tbf.

Unless you're hellbent on using Inquisition for this, just chuck Lysander at the 'fexes. Dat str 10 hammer.

550 points isn't 40 points, and the unit is vulnerable to anti geq firepower after it gets out of the land raider..

Hooray im helping.

It seems HH doesn't do the pre multiplication stack like the GK book (though i suppose you can shove a GK bb inquisitor for more lulz).

To bad GK cant get biomancy for addition enfeeble.
Though its possible to ally in some DA for the other rad grenade and biomancy(?) to instagiv T8 models.


Edit: But to have lysander would mean you have to ether start outside of the landraider or have a second raider or other form of locomotion to get into the same combat.

Shadenfreude - 1. It doesn't get out of the land raider and sit around - it assaults out of the landraider straight into combat with the mcs.
2. It is not a 550 pt unit. It is a landraider crusader, which has many other uses especially with psybolts, 2 IC characters which can buff and join other units when this one has taken too much hurt, and a 101 to 198pt unit. As I said in the OP don't think about this as a single unit death star - thats too narrow an approach to look at this with. 101pts IS cheap for the unit itself.
3. The first 7 to 9 removed models will be cheap 4pt models who are there for that exact reason.
4. The thread states a 40pt model. It is a 40pt model which is killing 1.5 t6 mcs each per turn on average.


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Does HH not stack for inquisition? Not that I don't believe you - just wondering where that has come from? A few dakka users have suggested it stacks so I assumed it does. If not can this not just be taken as GK and stack it that way? Not familiar with their dex so I aren't sure.


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Just looked - definitely cannot see anything in its wording or the rulebook that prevents it from stacking. Unless there is an faq/errata I am unaware of it seems safe!


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 obsidiankatana wrote:
Unless you're hellbent on using Inquisition for this, just chuck Lysander at the 'fexes. Dat str 10 hammer.

Lysander is great but far more expensive for the same job. He would still need a rad granade inquisitor to ID. And then we are still talking taking the landraider to get him there plus a different one for the inquisitor. Whilst the land raiders can do their own thing afterwards and so aren't part of the lysander unit, it'll still start to get very expensive very quickly. This unit only costs as low as 101pts and will only require one raider to get them there.

The squad has a lot of potential, but it can also flop after mauling a squad.

A LRC with psybolt is pretty beefy in the 6th ed meta. Stock wraithknights are the most common unit taudar have to deal with it in 6th ed.

7 to 9 ablative wounds is hit or miss. It can work well, or be ignored through barrage or shooting the squad from the rear.

The unit and land raider are priced right, can work well, but can be countered.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Unless you're hellbent on using Inquisition for this, just chuck Lysander at the 'fexes. Dat str 10 hammer.

Lysander is great but far more expensive for the same job. He would still need a rad granade inquisitor to ID. And then we are still talking taking the landraider to get him there plus a different one for the inquisitor. Whilst the land raiders can do their own thing afterwards and so aren't part of the lysander unit, it'll still start to get very expensive very quickly. This unit only costs as low as 101pts and will only require one raider to get them there.

The glory of terminator armor is not needing a Land Raider. DS is always on the table - unless your Inquisitorial posse is getting a T2 charge off.

I'm not sure where your 101pt figure is coming from though. I mean, I read your post, and I see the numbers, but you can't really take out the cost of the Inquisitors since they're mandatory to getting the unit's job done. Removing them makes the unit meh at best, since you lose hammerhand, grenades, and the Ld10 for the priests. Sure, they CAN buff other units (with hammerhand? how many assault units are in this scenario?), but their duties lay with the murdersquad. Running a couple of Inquisitors with 1-2 priests and some Crusaders (for sexy 3++ re-rollables) seems to be a more effective method for delivering the grenades (so you only need one Inquisitor in this scenario) after which Lysander lays down the law, needing no leadership check to do so. Admittedly this is weaker for needing 3 turns to line up and the potential for Lysander to get locked out via challenge, but then your Inquisitor steps up to the plate re-rolling wounds. One nick of the force sword and your MC troubles end anyway.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Shadenfreude - 1. It doesn't get out of the land raider and sit around - it assaults out of the landraider straight into combat with the mcs.
2. It is not a 550 pt unit. It is a landraider crusader, which has many other uses especially with psybolts, 2 IC characters which can buff and join other units when this one has taken too much hurt, and a 101 to 198pt unit. As I said in the OP don't think about this as a single unit death star - thats too narrow an approach to look at this with. 101pts IS cheap for the unit itself.
3. The first 7 to 9 removed models will be cheap 4pt models who are there for that exact reason.
4. The thread states a 40pt model. It is a 40pt model which is killing 1.5 t6 mcs each per turn on average.


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Does HH not stack for inquisition? Not that I don't believe you - just wondering where that has come from? A few dakka users have suggested it stacks so I assumed it does. If not can this not just be taken as GK and stack it that way? Not familiar with their dex so I aren't sure.


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Just looked - definitely cannot see anything in its wording or the rulebook that prevents it from stacking. Unless there is an faq/errata I am unaware of it seems safe!

reliably.

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 obsidiankatana wrote:
Unless you're hellbent on using Inquisition for this, just chuck Lysander at the 'fexes. Dat str 10 hammer.

Its a "same Psychic power" issue. IF you play they stack then things like Paroxsym that reduce W and B become very annoying as suddenly youcan make that W9 or bs5 unit W1 BS1

The issue with Terminator armor is that you cant give one to a xeno inquisitor :(.

Stacking the power should be fine though i think theres a whole YMDC thread for that.

There is however a difference between inq and GK in that hammer hand in gk specifically states the +1S is applied Before other modifiers like having a Nemesis daemon hammer.

schadenfreude wrote:550 points isn't 40 points, and the unit is vulnerable to anti geq firepower after it gets out of the land raider..

Yeah... this seems like this unit would work exactly once per game, and then it just gets instantly slaughtered. Also, as mentioned, there are some complications, like the slim possibility of the land raider getting destroyed, or the much more worrying idea of your opponent getting to overwatch (it doesn't look like this squad can take more than 1 or 2 casualties and still be nearly as effective), or the pretty serious chance that one or two of the big pile of psychic powers won't get off. Or, of course, your opponents don't bring T6 monstrous creatures, and what then?

The other problem, too, is the opportunity cost. Lots of armies can ally in with guard. For 550 points, guard can give you a CCS, and an infantry platoon with three infantry squads, and 2 HWSs which gives you a total of 11 lascannons with access to twin-linking against monstrous creatures (and 10 points to spare for a pair of BS4 sniper rifles or something). Assuming that you can issue orders, and that one of the two of them passes, that's 6.4 lascannon hits. Against a riptide, that's 3 or 4 wounds off in a single round of shooting. Against a T6 Sv3+ monstrous creature, that's 5 or 6 wounds stripped off.

So, it accomplishes nearly the same thing, except that it can start turn 1 (rather than turn whenever it gets into close combat, if it even makes it there), and it's MUCH better against vehicles of all kinds, and with all those lasguns it's even better against hordes. It does the same or more damage faster, to more target types, and more reliably, and, in the case of battle brothers, also provides a big pile of scoring units.

Or, if you rock the forgeworld cheese, guard allies will also give you access to a squad of 3 beast-hunter vanquishers, which will just mow them down like guardsmen to a squad of burnas.

I mean, if you're already doing land raider spam, then this wouldn't be a terrible thing to add in (unless you're GK, and have access to DCAs), but as a hard counter to carnifex spam, I'm not particularly impressed.

C:Inq does have access to DCA and crusaders

really though everything they do against t6 monsters work just as well against anything else in the game.

it is still a fearless unit that can have AP2 power mauls that can smash up to st10 which will kill anything really.

The only issue is that it is a melee focused unit and well we know how that is in 6th right now.

But it still has great potential. the only one i can see it having problems with is creamer stars 2++ nonsense.

Edit: Though for the same cost could be better. they still are not fearless, need searchlights (for t1 anyway though its a bit moot) and unless encamped inside terrain will die in droves just as fast to any sort of fire.

Though god help me i hope they add those beast shells into the new ig

Or hordes.

Killed my 50 point speedbump I didn't care about? Lost how many models? Interesting... here's some FRF lasguns/burnas/shootas/bolters/anything. And you brought your land raider into melta range to boot. Thanks!

Wait when did orks become part of this?

and why in the world would you even bother sending up a land raider into melta range when you should be shooting the st 5/5 hurricanes and st 7/4 rending assault cannons into the units caring them.

At which point this is off topic.

I sometimes run a similar unit but with crusaders to toughen the unit up. With a priest making the saves rerollable during the assault phase the unit takes few overwatch or CC casualties.

For a unit to handle MCs this is pretty expensive and somewhat niche due to its CC focus.

how about rad grenades and then the s10 orbital strike from Karamazov?

Rad grenades from GK or Inq only effect the first assault.

Rad from Ravenwing grenade launchers do work though.

 Desubot wrote:
Rad grenades from GK or Inq only effect the first assault.

Rad from Ravenwing grenade launchers do work though.

Truth...well...if bugs are a problem...I still recommend crusaders to tank wounds and a lance strike from karamazov

Or psyk out if it's a psyker...autowound

Desubot wrote:and why in the world would you even bother sending up a land raider into melta range when you should be shooting the st 5/5 hurricanes and st 7/4 rending assault cannons into the units caring them.

You're saying that the way to kill a carnifex is with hurricane bolters?

My point was that if you bring a land raider full of flimsy close combat guys into range of an opponent with a horde, then all you're going to kill is a speedbump (not a monstrous creature), and then the flimsy squad will get wiped out, and the land raider has even brought into melta/assault range for you as well.

Going to tyranid in specific, what you're looking at is a cheap critter screen to eat the charge of the CC unit, and then the next turn, the dakkafex murders the CC unit, and another carnifex assaults and explodes the land raider. That's going to be 550 points exchanged for 50, and not a very good solution to to many carnificies.

Also, there are several sources of S10 out there. All you've got to do is reduce the T by 1, and then hit it with one of those weapons. Coming up with a more convoluted way of making an S10 weapon when you could just take an S10 weapon doesn't seem to me a straight better solution.

If you don't mind spending more points then make the ablative wounds more durable. Crusaders instead of acolytes would give you power axes (or whatever) and 3++ re-rollable saves in hth. It would help save the unit after it decimates whatever it hits in its first assault.

course its significantly more expensive... could be fun to try

This is why I run shooty Tyranids. A single unit that costs 1/3 of your points that I can just avoid, while shooting your other models, then on turn 3 can bait with a sacrificial squad, and then win on objectives... yep.

I'd like to play against this actually. Gimmick lists (win big/lose big) are usually good for a wacky evening of 40k.

war wrote:
If you don't mind spending more points then make the ablative wounds more durable. Crusaders instead of acolytes would give you power axes (or whatever) and 3++ re-rollable saves in hth. It would help save the unit after it decimates whatever it hits in its first assault.

course its significantly more expensive... could be fun to try

Re-download your codex. DCA and crusaders come with power swords now rather than power weapons. I know, sad day.

Wait, what?

The newer versions of the warbands restrict the Crusaders and DCA's to Power Swords. Although that particular change has not, as far as I'm aware, been back-ported to Codex: Grey Knights.

 Ailaros wrote:

Desubot wrote:and why in the world would you even bother sending up a land raider into melta range when you should be shooting the st 5/5 hurricanes and st 7/4 rending assault cannons into the units caring them.

You're saying that the way to kill a carnifex is with hurricane bolters?

My point was that if you bring a land raider full of flimsy close combat guys into range of an opponent with a horde, then all you're going to kill is a speedbump (not a monstrous creature), and then the flimsy squad will get wiped out, and the land raider has even brought into melta/assault range for you as well.

Going to tyranid in specific, what you're looking at is a cheap critter screen to eat the charge of the CC unit, and then the next turn, the dakkafex murders the CC unit, and another carnifex assaults and explodes the land raider. That's going to be 550 points exchanged for 50, and not a very good solution to to many carnificies.

Also, there are several sources of S10 out there. All you've got to do is reduce the T by 1, and then hit it with one of those weapons. Coming up with a more convoluted way of making an S10 weapon when you could just take an S10 weapon doesn't seem to me a straight better solution.

Yeah still don't see what meltas have to do with Nids. ether way though it seems like a much better idea to sit back shoot up the smalls. While the dakkafexs only option (i cant remember the S of the weapon so correct me if im wrong) would be to walk up and punch it open. at which point it should not only in range but clear from the smaller screener units. but that was my point about the psybolt crusader. to shoot the chaff away. and melta threats first at range

I would hardly call this unit flimsy assuming your not playing like a 5 year old. it has a lot of potential damage and can easily wipe out many different threats, not just fexs. It will obviously have issues with a big blob of IG or a green tide. but it should do well against MCs of most type.

Edit: Wait when did they change it? NOOOOOOOOOO MY CONVERSIONS!

The unit is a handful of mostly T3 models with mostly terrible armor. This is not a difficult unit to wipe out, even if you play like a 40k god, and not like a kindergartner. You run into one unit, and then maybe or maybe not kill it (and is far from certain to be the unit you intended to use it against), and then you're wiped out.

It's really hard to see how this unit would make 550 points back against an even slightly competent opponent, much less go on a rampage and be a hard counter to monstrous creatures.

This is why the traditional Inquisitorial murderblob centers around a handful of crusaders, a party of DCA, and a couple priests/inquisitors. Volume of attacks and decent AP both to deal with MEQ (formerly TEQ) and decent sized squads. They'll go right through a 10man unit without breaking a sweat.

IT may be a T3 unit in awful armor, but for the most part its not going to be out in the open forever. and you can always embark back into the raider.

Pysco grenades giving a relatively decent chance at causing havoc
psyk out nades messing with psykers
hammerhand (if its even necessary for the task at hand) and rad grenades allowing for more wounds (most of which should be ap2 or 3)
Add in fun relics for hatred, or Monster hunter nids. and it should wipe at least 1 unit for sure, though they should be multi charging to get the most benefits out of the grenades. (and obviously not charging chaff)

and to be fair. its not like this is the only unit in your entire army, hopefully you brought your anti air and general shooters to take care of the threats at hand. (personally run them as allies with SM with TFCs to great effect)

Edit: Though i add in a few crusaders for the invul and put them in front or behind depending on the situation.

 Desubot wrote:
IT may be a T3 unit in awful armor, but for the most part its not going to be out in the open forever. and you can always embark back into the raider.

Pysco grenades giving a relatively decent chance at causing havoc
psyk out nades messing with psykers
hammerhand (if its even necessary for the task at hand) and rad grenades allowing for more wounds (most of which should be ap2 or 3)
Add in fun relics for hatred, or Monster hunter nids. and it should wipe at least 1 unit for sure, though they should be multi charging to get the most benefits out of the grenades. (and obviously not charging chaff)

and to be fair. its not like this is the only unit in your entire army, hopefully you brought your anti air and general shooters to take care of the threats at hand. (personally run them as allies with SM with TFCs to great effect)

Edit: Though i add in a few crusaders for the invul and put them in front or behind depending on the situation.

See, now we're no longer talking about Acolyte bodies tanking for a blob of Priests smashing everything. We're talking about the more traditional Inquisitor assault squad. Which is an undeniably powerful assault unit.

But the main component is that they with the grenade inquisitor can smash there way through T6, the chaff they come with could be anything.

In fact the preist make em better with the reroll saves. which you can do when you dont need the smash.

 Desubot wrote:
But the main component is that they with the grenade inquisitor can smash there way through T6, the chaff they come with could be anything.

In fact the preist make em better with the reroll saves. which you can do when you dont need the smash.

The chaff with the Inquisitors could be anything, or the chaff they fight? Because the Inquisitor chaff can't be anything. Acolytes have low initiative, strength, attacks, and saves. Granted they're 4pts a model, but there's a reason for that - they're pitiful.

Quick thing to point out... Overwatch? We're talking 36 Strength 6 shots (BS 1 yes, but still) that can murder the front rank of whomever dares charge, including ID for T3 models.

Or, charge squad with Dreadknight, kill all.

 jifel wrote:
Quick thing to point out... Overwatch? We're talking 36 Strength 6 shots (BS 1 yes, but still) that can murder the front rank of whomever dares charge, including ID for T3 models.

Or, charge squad with Dreadknight, kill all.

Being charged is largely a nonissue, them being in a Land Raider. Also, rad and psychotroke grenades take effect even if the unit is charged rather than charging. They'll loose hatred, that's about it. Overwatch does pose a concern though.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Being charged is largely a nonissue, them being in a Land Raider. Also, rad and psychotroke grenades take effect even if the unit is charged rather than charging. They'll loose hatred, that's about it. Overwatch does pose a concern though.

You are speaking of a single landraider without any PFG, etc. as if it was gauranteed to get where it wants. Against a codex which has a ~150 pts two haywire shot FMC. It is not actually guaranteed at all and many of the new popular lists (ie 2-3 crones) have a decent shot at taking it out. There is a reason that TH/SS termi in landraider are considered unreliable for delivery.

With crusaders the unit is much much better as overwatch does very little to 3++ rerollable and if the landraider gets popped the unit has some chance to get where it wants. Even then a smaller more streamlined unit in a stormraven will often be more useful and much cheaper.

 ansacs wrote:

You are speaking of a single landraider without any PFG, etc. as if it was gauranteed to get where it wants. Against a codex which has a ~150 pts two haywire shot FMC. It is not actually guaranteed at all and many of the new popular lists (ie 2-3 crones) have a decent shot at taking it out. There is a reason that TH/SS termi in landraider are considered unreliable for delivery.

With crusaders the unit is much much better as overwatch does very little to 3++ rerollable and if the landraider gets popped the unit has some chance to get where it wants. Even then a smaller more streamlined unit in a stormraven will often be more useful and much cheaper.

Well sure, if your LR is the only thing near the enemy and the rest of your army is ineffective enough that it can be ignored. And no, two haywire shots are not good enough to down a land raid. It's enough to reliably remove to hullpoints off a landraider. I'm not saying it's a guaranteed delivery, but Nid shooting is far from the most reliable thing for bringing down AV 14 - and very few nid lists plan for anti AV 14 shooting.

We are talking a 600 pts egg holder versus 300 pts of shooting 4 haywire shots. How much extra threat do you have compared to the opponent? Talk about the rest of the list is extremely unhelpful when we are comparing essentially a deathstar against a more The list.

Dear those who are saying this unit is expensive by including the transport cost in the price - this is ridiculous! It would be exactly the same logic as saying a dire avenger squad is too expensive because its wave serpent makes it over 200pts! The transport is a seperate entity to the unit. The unit is 101pts at its cheapest - stop including the transportation costs, ive already dealt with that please read my posts.
As to the speed bump issue - I have also tried to address this in the first post.
I really do appreciate the feedback but it honestly feels as though you have read the first few lines then got bored and not bothered with the rest. I addressed those point in the original post.
Overatch is a good point but there are 7 to 9 4pt wound sponges.
Also if the opponent focuses on the raider - all the av12 chimeras are not being focused upon.
This unit can kill 3 carnifex on average in one phase. For 101pts. Or a hive tyrant. Or a deamon prince. Or a tervigon. Or a riptide (if it can catch it). The only problems it has are EXACTLY the same as every other assault unit (well not all because it can still ride in an av14 assault vehicle unlike many assault units) but you still see assault in the game today. Are you HONESTLY telling me a 101pt unit that can wipe out an entire fex brood or any other MC in one go is too expensive? Because if so, that means I will have to come up with a way of making gretchin mc killers...


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As to haywire. That could be an issue en mass. Say a 5+ cover save. Needs 7 hits roughly, needs 10-11 shots at bs4.
Without a 5+ needs, 5 hits roughly. Takes 8 shots at bs4.

 ansacs wrote:
We are talking a 600 pts egg holder versus 300 pts of shooting 4 haywire shots. How much extra threat do you have compared to the opponent? Talk about the rest of the list is extremely unhelpful when we are comparing essentially a deathstar against a more The list.

Actually, we're not talking about 600pts of deathstar versus 300pts of haywire. That's a silly comparison to make. I could compare the same 600pts of deathstar filled LR to 300 pts of Lascannon devs. But comparing AV to anti-AV is silly. Yes, if you bring the counter to an LR you can kill an LR. This isn't news. The discussion is how well the units inside do. If the LR dies, they're dead, that's just universally true.

Also the cheapest version of this unit that still gets the job done is 481pts WITH raider and two ICs that can join and buff other units so are not a part of this units cost (I know I keep saying this but I'll keep saying it until people read it).
On a side note imagine people saying a tactical squad cost over 350 pts because tiggy cast some powers on it...


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4 haywire shots against a LR in the open takes an average of 2 hps off at bs 4. So you would need 600pts of haywire and 4 FA slots to take it down in the open.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Dear those who are saying this unit is expensive by including the transport cost in the price - this is ridiculous! It would be exactly the same logic as saying a dire avenger squad is too expensive because its wave serpent makes it over 200pts! The transport is a seperate entity to the unit. The unit is 101pts at its cheapest - stop including the transportation costs, ive already dealt with that please read my posts.
As to the speed bump issue - I have also tried to address this in the first post.
I really do appreciate the feedback but it honestly feels as though you have read the first few lines then got bored and not bothered with the rest. I addressed those point in the original post.
Overatch is a good point but there are 7 to 9 4pt wound sponges.
Also if the opponent focuses on the raider - all the av12 chimeras are not being focused upon.
This unit can kill 3 carnifex on average in one phase. For 101pts. Or a hive tyrant. Or a deamon prince. Or a tervigon. Or a riptide (if it can catch it). The only problems it has are EXACTLY the same as every other assault unit (well not all because it can still ride in an av14 assault vehicle unlike many assault units) but you still see assault in the game today. Are you HONESTLY telling me a 101pt unit that can wipe out an entire fex brood or any other MC in one go is too expensive? Because if so, that means I will have to come up with a way of making gretchin mc killers...


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As to haywire. That could be an issue en mass. Say a 5+ cover save. Needs 7 hits roughly, needs 10-11 shots at bs4.
Without a 5+ needs, 5 hits roughly. Takes 8 shots at bs4.

Wave Serpents are good. Like, ridiculously so. Against many more targets than the Land Raider. As are Dire Avengers relative to the Inquisitorial blob. There's the same issue here as comparing haywire to a land raider - If you compare a unit to that which it is supposed to counter, OF COURSE it looks good. That's a vacuum that doesn't happen in games, though.


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Poly Ranger wrote:
Also the cheapest version of this unit that still gets the job done is 481pts WITH raider and two ICs that can join and buff other units so are not a part of this units cost (I know I keep saying this but I'll keep saying it until people read it).
On a side note imagine people saying a tactical squad cost over 350 pts because tiggy cast some powers on it...


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4 haywire shots against a LR in the open takes an average of 2 hps off at bs 4. So you would need 600pts of haywire and 4 FA slots to take it down in the open.

For this edit, a tac squad doesn't require Tiggy to function. The blob requires the Land Raider to function.

I know the wave serpent is better but the same logic applies.
With tiggy I was comparing tiggy with the inquisitors not raider, as he is there to buff other units as well.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I know the wave serpent is better but the same logic applies.
With tiggy I was comparing tiggy with the inquisitors not raider, as he is there to buff other units as well.

The logic does not apply. The Wave Serpent and Avengers are both worth their cost, even together. The output considerable damage against a wide variety of units at a respectable range. The Inquisitors as well, are mandatory for the unit to operate. Without hammerhand and grenades they don't work. Tiggy is not required for a tac squad.

The unit does still work, very well, without the inquisitors, it just requires the inquisitors to buff the unit so they can take out t6 mcs reliably. Just like it would take tiggy with perfect timing for a PC to take out teq/meq in cover.
I did not realise that Dire Avengers themselves would not be shot up without a serpent. The same criticism being put to this unit.
Yes Dire Avengers have respectable output at range - good for what they do. But they wouldnt put much of a dint on an mc barring a couple of wounds due to rending. This unit eats mcs for breakfast. Both have different roles which they are good at.
Psybolts makes a crusader worth its points. It isnt worth it imo without them. Some people use these in gunlines not for transporting - so they can be considerd seperate to the unit as they fill a role of their own.
At the end of the day it is a 101pt unit. If the raider is an issue for some people -run 3 of these in chimeras if you like. Disembark behind the chimeras, opponent has to invest in destroying 3 12 wound dirt cheap units now, the inquisitors can join any who survive.

Poly Ranger wrote:
The unit does still work, very well, without the inquisitors, it just requires the inquisitors to buff the unit so they can take out t6 mcs reliably. Just like it would take tiggy with perfect timing for a PC to take out teq/meq in cover.
I did not realise that Dire Avengers themselves would not be shot up without a serpent. The same criticism being put to this unit.
Yes Dire Avengers have respectable output at range - good for what they do. But they wouldnt put much of a dint on an mc barring a couple of wounds due to rending. This unit eats mcs for breakfast. Both have different roles which they are good at.
Psybolts makes a crusader worth its points. It isnt worth it imo without them. Some people use these in gunlines not for transporting - so they can be considerd seperate to the unit as they fill a role of their own.
At the end of the day it is a 101pt unit. If the raider is an issue for some people -run 3 of these in chimeras if you like. Disembark behind the chimeras, opponent has to invest in destroying 3 12 wound dirt cheap units now, the inquisitors can join any who survive.

It requires the Inquisitors to kill T6 MCs, which was the point of the unit I thought. Just as you say here that Dire Avengers can't put much of a dent in MCs, where this unit still eats them - but only with the Inquisitors will it do this. 5 Dire Avengers shooting is still 15 shots, 10 hits, 1.667 rends. That's damn respectable from their points cost, AND they unlock the Wave Serpent - which is incomparably good. Yeah, they'll get shot up outside the serpent - but they cost less than the aforementioned Inquisitorial unit, and can reliably shoot back. They're also not a target like the Inquisitorial unit, because they aren't threatening to instagib MCs or murder in assault.

I suppose I'm just not agreeing with you that it's a 101pt unit. True, the core is 101pt. It requires a 110pt further investment to be able to do the job the thread title and OP have in mind for it, and a further 265pts to get it there. I can't look past that. It's too dependent on other units to be cost effective for a very specific duty.

True - it is a specific duty, and should in no way be included in TAC lists but rather tailored lists. It does require those extra points to function in the way it is intended, but those extra points do extra things themselves to justify their own points costs and so I wouldn't personally count them as part of the units points cost as they can quite effectively function without the unit. They still have purpose without the unit, unlike say, a rhino.

All swords now huh.... well that sucks. I used WHFB chaos warriors with axes for converting and they look half decent. Sure the shields are the important part, but still a pain. Wish they made it an upgrade instead of just omitting things...

I still think the basic idea of this squad is a good idea, but suffers from the same things as every assault squad in the game right now. Crusaders will give it survivability, land raider as well but you'll still likely be eating overwatch and an army's worth of shooting in the turn after you wipe your target. Not cheap enough to use as a throw away unit and not durable enough to be seen as much else.

Cool stuff. I've been runnig priests and hammer hand inqusitors with various grenafe in my SoB blob squads and thry're awesome. I've been troking my chin thinkig about a LRC with Psybolt as a delivery system for pure henchmen and this sounds great. i'd love to doubleout a swarmlord with this etup to ee my opponents face.

What's the math hammer looking like for this unit vs say a chapter master wih EW and a 3++ would that keep this unt tied up? Lots of marines in my meta which is why I ask.

D

Lets look at the cheapest unit. If they charge the chap master and he is solo, on a bike with AA, SE and a TH, he will kill 3 acolytes and challenge a priest out before they hit back. The remaining 7 acolytes plus the non-powermaul priest will give 25 attacks, may as well count the inquisitors as well since they will only have ap3. This is 35 st5 attacks. Hitting on a 4+ with reroll = 26 on average hit. Wounding on a 3+ with reroll gives 23 wounds. The smash priest who wasnt challenged out will cause 2 to 3 wounds. So after suffering 3 casualties, the unit will cause the chappy to take 25 or 26 armour saves on average.

That is of course if he has gone solo after leaving a bike unit.


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2 or 3 of those saves will be against 3++ rather than a 2+...

1) You're assuming no Shadows in the Warp.
2) You're assuming no Overwatch. A triple Dakkafex brood will average 5 wounds against your unit - what's the armor save on the guys leading the charge? 3+? so 2 die? Seems good.

Armour save is 5+. 5 wounds is 20pts of wound sponge models who are there precisely to take such shots... shadows in the warp will only effect the two hammerhand rolls the rest are not psychic powers. But it could throw a cog in the works if unlucky with the rolls.

Since you need the Hammerhands to actually do the ID...

Exactly. What is shadows rules in the new dex? Same as the old?

Desubot wrote:IT may be a T3 unit in awful armor, but for the most part its not going to be out in the open forever. and you can always embark back into the raider.

But it's going to need to be out in the open for at least one turn. And we're playing with 6th ed wound allocation, which means your opponent doesn't need to kill all (or even most) of those acolytes before he starts killing priests and inquisitors, at which point the whole thing falls apart.

But, you know, we can be more systematic about this:

Force concentration: You're fine with dudes in a land raider, but you need to rely on your opponent failing to do this correctly. Your opponent can't throw up screeners, or use one unit to kill the land raider while another kills the squad inside, for example. He needs to leave your intended target alone, out in the open, unsupported. Served up on a silver platter.

Time: The absolute fastest you're likely to get into close combat is turn 2. Even if you accomplish this, in order to make their points back, you need to kill three carnifexes. That means you kill one on the turn you arrive, and then kill one more every turn (because the game well might end then). This is going to require a fair bit of generosity on your opponent's part.

Killing Power: Yes, in a perfect world, this unit can one-shot a carnifex, but we're not talking about a perfect world. You're talking about a unit that must have both inquisitors or it doesn't work at all. You're talking about a unit that must have priests, and preferably a few of them. The moment you start taking casualties to key models, the whole plan instantly falls apart. But that's not all, of course, I'm looking at a unit that casts hammerhand twice and three castings of smash. That's FIVE chances to roll a 2, 11, or 12. If any of those psychic tests fail, you're in a bad way, and if either of those hammerhands fail, then you're just done. Moreover, once you start getting perils, you start losing key models, and the whole thing falls apart.

Durability: As mentioned, this is super important, what with losing key units causing imminent failure of the plan. This is, of course, a serious problem. Inside the land raider you're fine, but once you leave the land raider (outside is where you're going to be spending every turn of the game but one in order to do enough killing), that drops precipitously. Perils and overwatch kill models for free. 6th ed wound allocation means they don't need to wipe away all the abblative wounds. The fact that everybody's T3 and has bad armor saves means you're only needing to throw around a few wounds onto them anyways, which is easily achievable.

So, what's the end result? In order for this to work as planned, your opponent needs to line up three carnifexes out in the open, and refuse to support them (or let them support each other), and then let you drive up and murder them one by one without attacking the squad between assaults, and you need to pass all of your dozens of psychic tests without ever rolling perils.

I don't know what fantasy world some people are living in, but I can't see how this situation would ever come up in regular play.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

...Dire Avengers can't put much of a dent in MCs, where this unit still eats them - but only with the Inquisitors will it do this. 5 Dire Avengers shooting is still 15 shots...

5 DA's are shooting 10 shots actually... wish it was 15... <Grin>

rigeld2 wrote:
1) You're assuming no Shadows in the Warp.
2) You're assuming no Overwatch. A triple Dakkafex brood will average 5 wounds against your unit - what's the armor save on the guys leading the charge? 3+? so 2 die? Seems good.

11 hits = 9-10 wounds average, so the closest 3 or so die.

Force concentration: Seriously there is a perfectly good land raider available to take out screener units before the assault phase and not to mention the rest of the army list. and unless they are running Tervigons to pump out more, there will be a finite number of chumpers that nids can take. Most rest of what nids can take cant reliable open a raider from range ether (with the exception being that haywire missile thing but thats still a low chance.) it gives you all day to position and take out whats needed in shooting and or assault.

Time: the game is not about completely wiping your enemy before turn five. If a unit can remove and hold an objective by turn 5 to get the VP they have made there points. and chances objectives ore near objectives will be where they leave the fexs anyway.

Killing Power: There is an issue with hammer hand though with SitW lowering ld by 3(?) for physic(?) tests, but the unit should still put out. 4 st5 ap 2 per maul priests as well. war hymes are LD checks not a psychic power so no issues with that other than rolling 11+ (which is a risk for everyone)

Durability: Losing key models is always an issue for most any army. but perils and over watch are hardly a sure thing (unless your tau) and is the reason you pick up crusaders or just cheap hencis to block most of these shots.

So, what's the end result?: the End result should be that unless you are an incredibly unlucky person or the opponent took nothing but anti land raiders, the unit should be at least contesting an objective by turn 5

I dont understand how people can think everyone opponent will always have a 100% counter and every mission will be PtA

Ailaros - it is not going to need to be out in the open for at least 1 turn until it has completed its mission. A landraider is an assault vehicle.


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A dakka brood will get 6 hits average on overwatch not 11.


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Don't forget if hammerhand doesnt go off those 8-12 st7 ap 2 attacks wounding on a 2+ will be getting rerolls to hit and wound!


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Poly Ranger wrote:
Ailaros - it is not going to need to be out in the open for at least 1 turn until it has completed its mission. A landraider is an assault vehicle. Also the double 1 makes no difference to priests as it is not a psychic power. It doe not NEED the hammerhand as without them, they will still be wounding on a 4+ and get double the amount of attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A dakka brood will get 6 hits average on overwatch not 11.


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Don't forget if hammerhand doesnt go off those 8-12 st5 ap 2 attacks wounding on a 4+ will be getting rerolls to hit and wound!

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Edit ^


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Also - it on average kills THREE fexes in ONE phase.


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Have you read the original post? Because I don't believe you habe looking at your points.

SaganGree wrote:

5 DA's are shooting 10 shots actually... wish it was 15... <Grin>

Could've sworn they had assault 3 guns. Oh well, just me being angry at Eldar I suppose.

Don't they have bladestorm?

Bladestorm is the rending thing now, it doesn't add shots anymore.

Ahhh yeh totally forgot that! Thank god - rending with three shots would be crazy.

Desubot wrote:there is a perfectly good land raider available to take out screener units before the assault phase and not to mention the rest of the army list. and unless they are running Tervigons to pump out more, there will be a finite number of chumpers that nids can take. Most rest of what nids can take cant reliable open a raider from range ether (with the exception being that haywire missile thing but thats still a low chance.) it gives you all day to position and take out whats needed in shooting and or assault.

And what's the rest of your opponent's army doing? Nothing. If you can concentrate force with a land raider, your opponent can concentrate force against a land raider. The problem still persists.

And the solution above falls into the other problems. Are you going to spend turns 1-3 shooting something with your land raider and only get into assault on turn 4, right before the game might end?

Desubot wrote:Time: the game is not about completely wiping your enemy before turn five. If a unit can remove and hold an objective by turn 5 to get the VP they have made there points. and chances objectives ore near objectives will be where they leave the fexs anyway.

Are you going to hold an objective right under your opponent's nose with a few T3 models?

Further, are you going to drive up, successfully make it into an assault and win despite all the drawbacks, survive a turn of counterattack, get in a vehicle that's in assault range of your opponent, and then just drive off? That seems pretty generous of your opponent. Plus, this squad was billed as something that can kill stuff. If all you wanted was to hold an obejctive, you could do it much better for much cheaper (and kill carnifexes better to boot) with other options.

Desubot wrote:Killing Power: There is an issue with hammer hand though with SitW lowering ld by 3(?) for physic(?) tests, but the unit should still put out. 4 st5 ap 2 per maul priests as well. war hymes are LD checks not a psychic power so no issues with that other than rolling 11+ (which is a risk for everyone)

And is still a risk. And if we're talking about hammerhand only going off on a 7, and you need BOTH of them to go off to cause ID, then this plan STARTS at working only half the time.

Yes, it still has decent strength attacks with good Ap, so it's not completely worthless. But now we're talking about 4 attacks that have to hit, and have to wound, and even at 100%, they're still not killing the carnifex. Most like what you're looking at is doing some damage, and the TMC doing some damage back over a few turns, which the inquisitor squad might win... but will they win in time? Will your opponent do nothing to bail their MC out?

Desubot wrote:Durability: Losing key models is always an issue for most any army. but perils and over watch are hardly a sure thing (unless your tau) and is the reason you pick up crusaders or just cheap hencis to block most of these shots.

But they happen.

Plus, this is also representing only some of the problems. Yes, you have an assault ramp transport, but if your opponent's MC is in or behind cover, you still have to roll 3D6 and pick the lowest to get into assault at all. If you fail to get in range, then you've wasted a turn, and give your opponent two free overwatches and a turn to kill your squad BEFORE they even make it into their first close combat. Unless you drive the land raider forward for an extra turn, in which case you're wasting time, and opening up your opponent to assault the land raider, which if they kill now you're looking at the chance of taking damage from a vehicle explosion or getting stuck with more bad difficult terrain roles.

Yes, these are small things, but it's a big bag of small things. The more low-chance things you invite into a plan that has to work perfectly to work at all, the worse off you are, because invariably you're going to see one or two of those low-chance things actually happening, and screwing everything up.

And all units have some amount of losing-key-models problem, but it doesn't effect everything equally. In the example I gave above where instead you take a bunch of guard squads with lascannons, taking out a single lascannon is bad for that squad, but it doesn't mean very much for the plan as a whole, wherein there are still lots of lascannons doing things just as effectively as they were before.

Inquisition lists have more than enough firepower to brush away a screening gaunt unit. At the same time you are forcing your opponent to move to counter you giving you the initiative. So you agree HALF the time the squad will wipe out 3 fexes... when in shadows range? I can live with that. The other half the time they will cause ~ 9 wounds not including acolytes if neither hammerhand works.
It is not a unit that will go in unsupported - it will have support units nearby (not just the raider) if the opponent counter attacks, which im sure they will, they will not be focusing on these units.
Yes there are things that can go wrong - most of which apply to all assault units. But it is a unit which has a good chance to do a lot of damage. You dismiss it as terrible but it most certainly isnt.

"And what's the rest of your opponent's army doing? Nothing." All things considered probably not. what does a general Nid list have that would take care of raider out side MC CC?. while the raider can split fire which guns that very much ignore the armor of a lot of what they have.

"Are you going to hold an objective right under your opponent's nose with a few T3 models? " obviously not and it would depend on the situation. and in some situation if possible would be best to multi charge and lock (fearless) with at least a 50% chance that it will screw em up (psyco/out grenades)

The raider can sit there and pick off whats left or work as it screen to keep the objective safe.

"they're still not killing the carnifex" Really? even if they failed to cast both HH, it will still be 4 attacks per at st 5 vs t 5, with 4s to hit, 4s to wound or better depending on the other war hymens, and at that 1/6 chance to auto hit, 1/6 chance to make em initiative 1, and a 1/6 chance they will attack them selves. unless im wrong and fexs have more than 4 wounds that's at least 1 dead fex.

Anyway i agree there are issues like any other multiple interaction units and it wont be always consistent but the unit should have a very good chance at multiple situations that can call for them.

I think we've got the idea of what the unit should do. It's good, don't get me wrong, but I think this thread is just going to devolve into a lot of hypotheticals that don't help anyone.

I like this as it gives nid players something to have to consider when building no brainer zilla lists.

However it comes to 600pts yes, how many lascannon can you buy with that?

531 if going dual paowermaul priests, basic priest, 9 aacolytes, both inquisitors with required loadout and crusader with psybolts and mm.
3 dev squads with 12 las and a tac with las for 540 is the cheapest I can think of. 13 lascannons then.
But the crusader does put out the anti-horde firepower too. And you can still get 2 buffing characters.
Both have their strengths. The devs wont have to get into harms way and have very good range. Whilst the henchmen squad wont have to worry about cover saves and can take them out in one go.

 Desubot wrote:
"And what's the rest of your opponent's army doing? Nothing." All things considered probably not. what does a general Nid list have that would take care of raider out side MC CC?. while the raider can split fire which guns that very much ignore the armor of a lot of what they have.

Crones. And a Crusader doesn't have much that is AP3.

You need 8 haywire missiles on average at bs4 to destroy a raider in the open.

Vindicator @120 will pop fexes if they have no cover saves.

Sorry if its been mentioned but are you testing if the hymn goes through by the LD 10 of the Inquisitor or the LD 7 of the priest?

 Elgrun wrote:
Sorry if its been mentioned but are you testing if the hymn goes through by the LD 10 of the Inquisitor or the LD 7 of the priest?

Inq will be at ld7 anyway if he has hammerhand.

 Filch wrote:
Vindicator @120 will pop fexes if they have no cover saves.

Fexes are T6, so no.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Vindicator @120 will pop fexes if they have no cover saves.

Fexes are T6, so no.

This entire thread revolves around dropping them to T5 for an instant-kill.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Vindicator @120 will pop fexes if they have no cover saves.

Fexes are T6, so no.

This entire thread revolves around dropping them to T5 for an instant-kill.

In melee with Rad Grenades. You can't Vindicator yourself while in melee, can you?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


In melee with Rad Grenades. You can't Vindicator yourself while in melee, can you?

Enfeeble or DA Knights rad grenades. But now we're getting further from the original unit discussed.

MarkyMark wrote:

 Elgrun wrote:
Sorry if its been mentioned but are you testing if the hymn goes through by the LD 10 of the Inquisitor or the LD 7 of the priest?

Inq will be at ld7 anyway if he has hammerhand.

Priests aren't casting psychic powers so will be successful on the inquisitors ld10.


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Hammerhand will however be ld7 in shadows range.

I realize this thread has devolved but I would add the my INQ codex only allows psyflame ammo and not psybolt ammo, per the original loadout by original poster...

Widowsbane wrote:
I realize this thread has devolved but I would add the my INQ codex only allows psyflame ammo and not psybolt ammo, per the original loadout by original poster...

Check again. Psybolt ammo, Inquisitorial Vehicle Equipment, 5pt upgrade. Look under the Wargear point cost list, not the one with descriptions.

Poly Ranger wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Elgrun wrote:
Sorry if its been mentioned but are you testing if the hymn goes through by the LD 10 of the Inquisitor or the LD 7 of the priest?

Inq will be at ld7 anyway if he has hammerhand.

Priests aren't casting psychic powers so will be successful on the inquisitors ld10.


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Hammerhand will however be ld7 in shadows range.

No. New Shadows drops the LD of all Psykers, not just for Psychic tests.

Poly Ranger wrote:
You need 8 haywire missiles on average at bs4 to destroy a raider in the open.

Tyranids also have warp blasts. And also they could sacrifice a MC to destroy the LR.

If you're running Sisters with =I= you can add a IC priest from the Sisters dex with the Literine of faith to auto-pass the war hymns, then all you need to worry about is getting the HH's off.

D

 Tyran wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
You need 8 haywire missiles on average at bs4 to destroy a raider in the open.

Tyranids also have warp blasts. And also they could sacrifice a MC to destroy the LR.

This is true. I was just commenting to the people who believe a couple of crones will be able to takr out the raider in one go. All armies have the ability to take out the raider, im not denying that. But this thread makes it sound like raiders are as easy to kill as rhinos!


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rigeld2 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Elgrun wrote:
Sorry if its been mentioned but are you testing if the hymn goes through by the LD 10 of the Inquisitor or the LD 7 of the priest?

Inq will be at ld7 anyway if he has hammerhand.

Priests aren't casting psychic powers so will be successful on the inquisitors ld10.


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Hammerhand will however be ld7 in shadows range.

No. New Shadows drops the LD of all Psykers, not just for Psychic tests.

Now this is a MAJOR issue! Although a very simple solution to to shadows issue IF at dual FOC... Include a 25pt non psychic inquisitor - everyone can then use his unadjusted ld for tests...


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 evildrcheese wrote:
If you're running Sisters with =I= you can add a IC priest from the Sisters dex with the Literine of faith to auto-pass the war hymns, then all you need to worry about is getting the HH's off.

D

That's a good idea. Although wouldn't be able to share a transport, is the only issue.

Poly Ranger wrote:


Now this is a MAJOR issue! Although a very simple solution to to shadows issue IF at dual FOC... Include a 25pt non psychic inquisitor - everyone can then use his unadjusted ld for tests...

At dual FOC I expect your opponent to bury you in FMC.

Yes they can. They can bury any army in FMCs. That can be said about absolutely anything. Tiggy and cents? Ahhh they can bury you in fmcs, IF dev spam, ahhh they can bury you in fmcs, green tide, they can bury you in fmcs, BA/IG/SM mech spam, they can bury you in fmcs. I don't see how that is relevant to this build compared to any other when it comes to that.
And anyone in turn can have a reliable amount of AA at 2k+. If people were worried about being buried in FMCs they wouldn't play against tyranids.

What I meant is that at dual FOC there are better options that your expensive one trick CC unit. Really, your unit charges and kills a MC, next turn it gets obliterated and the LR charged and killed. 600 points for a 200 points MC, it doesn't seems good to me.

Its why you take it if you know you are facing a fex spam. They cost ~450pts for the 3. And if they are focused on that unit they are not focused on other things. I see what you are getting at but almost any 521pts (not 600) can be taken out if focused upon, but focusing on such things prevents you from taking a wider look at all the other units gunning for your armies blood and dealing with them when they also need to be dealt with.

But even if you kill the Fexes, the unit and the LR isn't going to survive next turn.
And if you know that you are going to play against fex spam then your opponent knows that he is going to play against your unit and invest in some good zoanthropes.

Even if they don't survive they have distracted the opponents army for a turn and made them play into your hands.