A unit containing at least one model with the Slow and Purposeful rule can shoot with Heavy, Ordnance and Salvo weapons, counting as stationary.

An Artillery unit cannot fire it's guns if they moved at all in that turn's movement phase.

If an Artillery unit contains a model with S&P (Ork Big Gunz joined by an Independent Character in Mega-Armour, for example) can it move it's guns and fire in the same turn?

some people argue both ways, but since Slow and purposeful says they count as stationary its pretty apparent you can.

No, the artillery rules prevent this from working. Slow and purposeful does not make an exception to the artillery rule.

Are the guns you are shooting classified as:

heavy, ordinance, or salvo? then they count as stationary, which means they count as having not moved "AT ALL"

Yeah, I agree. If you stick a S&P model in an artillery unit, it lets you move and shoot.

I'm in the "they can't fire camp" as the rule says that gun models can't be fired.

S&P allows you to shoot with heavy etc weapons as if you haven't moved but nothing says they can fire gun models that have moved. There is a blanket prohibition. Even if the Gun model was an Assault weapon type, you couldn't fire it if it had moved.

If it says they can't fire if they moved at all, then I'm going to say no.
Space Marine's 5th ed codex was the same with the Chapter Master; you could not move at all in the movement phase.
That sentence doesn't exist in our 6th ed codex, so we can use Relentless.

I might be wrong with that call, since the codex was the same edition as the rulebook at the time.

Is "Counts as stationary" = "counts as not moved"?

If so than I imagine there shouldn't be a problem. According to the S&P rule, it's not about if they moved it is a matter of counts as not moved.

Slow and Purposeful bestows upon the unit the ability to fire Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary.

It doesn't bestow upon the unit the ability to count as stationary in all things.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Slow and Purposeful bestows upon the unit the ability to fire Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary.

It doesn't bestow upon the unit the ability to count as stationary in all things.

I'd be on the side that they cannot. Reasoning:
"A unit containing at least one model with the Slow and Purposeful rule can shoot with Heavy, Ordnance and Salvo weapons, counting as stationary."

Means: When you shoot your weapon, assuming you can shoot it, you count as stationary.

"An Artillery unit cannot fire it's guns if they moved at all in that turn's movement phase."
Means: Any movement bans you from shooting the weapon.

as previously said, S&P does not make an exception to artillery. S&P gives you a certain status IF you fire you weapon.
If S&P was:
"If A unit containing at least one model with the Slow and Purposeful rule shoots with Heavy, Ordnance and Salvo weapons, it counts as stationary."
Then that would indeed override artillery.

Hope this clarifies a bit. It's basically down to how S&P is Written.

It is easily read that S&P gives permission by claimimg the unit 'can shoot' heavy weapons, etc..

In fact in your 2nd example artillery can't shoot. (unlike say, lootas, who would be firing snap shots) because they are not being given permission to shoot. In your first example of S&P the rule clearly seems to grant any unit a shot that is heavy ord or slavo and they fire as stationary ( not snapshots ).

I mean it could be read in circles all day. Depends on what your bias is. Do termies fire templates after moving? Just curious, seems like a comparable situation.

Been a while since I looked at the Ordnance Rules, and I know I won't remember to do so by the time I get back to the library, so I have to ask:

Does the ordnance rule contain a similar sentence structure, something along the lines of ' if a non-vehicle model moved that turn then they can not fire an ordnance weapon,' or is it just snap shots?

JinxDragon wrote:
Been a while since I looked at the Ordnance Rules, and I know I won't remember to do so by the time I get back to the library, so I have to ask:

Does the ordnance rule contain a similar sentence structure, something along the lines of ' if a non-vehicle model moved that turn then they can not fire an ordnance weapon,' or is it just snap shots?

"A non-vehicle model carrying an Ordnance weapon cannot fire it in the Shooting phase if he moved in the preceding Movement phase and cannot fire it as Snap Shots."

Thanks BloackTalos,
Doesn't get me any closer to determining what is correct for Artillery, still leaning towards no, but it does disprove some of the theories put forth here:
The Slow and Purposeful Rule does not care if the weapon is able to be fired, this is evident by the inclusion of Ordnance on the list of weapons that are effected by this rule. As the clause within ordnance prevents the weapon from being fired at all, and the Slow and Purpose rule specifically mentions Ordnance as being able to fire, it can not be stated that 'can not fire' trumps 'Slow and Purposeful.' If that was the case then a model with Slow and Purposeful would still be unable to fire an Ordinance weapon on moving.

Of course, this is all limited to Ordnance weapons which is why I can not apply it to other rules at this point in time but the argument that 'can not fire trumps slow and purposeful' does not appear correct.

Artillery has two separate restrictions (mostly because they are almost all Heavy weapons).

1. If you move, you must fire Snap Shots when firing a Heavy weapon.
2. If the gun moves it cannot be fired.

1 has nothing to do with 2. S&P overrides 1 but not 2.

JinxDragon wrote:
Thanks BloackTalos,
Doesn't get me any closer to determining what is correct for Artillery, still leaning towards no, but it does disprove some of the theories put forth here:
The Slow and Purposeful Rule does not care if the weapon is able to be fired, this is evident by the inclusion of Ordnance on the list of weapons that are effected by this rule. As the clause within ordnance prevents the weapon from being fired at all, and the Slow and Purpose rule specifically mentions Ordnance as being able to fire, it can not be stated that 'can not fire' trumps 'Slow and Purposeful.' If that was the case then a model with Slow and Purposeful would still be unable to fire an Ordinance weapon on moving.

Of course, this is all limited to Ordnance weapons which is why I can not apply it to other rules at this point in time but the argument that 'can not fire trumps slow and purposeful' does not appear correct.

I understand your reasoning, however the crucial word here IMO is "non-vehicle" in the Ordnance rule, and then the words "turbo-boost, move flat out" for S&P. This would lead me to think that even though non-vehicle models are clearly banned from using ordnance after moving, S&P would come of use for things like Walker (who have infantry rules) who might need other parts of the rule (S&P: "allowed to charge in the same turn they fire (...) ordnance).

I am not asserting 'can not fire' trumps 'Slow and Purposeful.' but rather S&P Rule does not trigger because 'can not fire', if you can see the difference in that?

Gun Models in an Artillery unit are not on the list of weapons that can be fired by Crew Models and still count as stationary. S&P does nothing for Artillery.

Artillery has its own special restrictions on movement when being fired.

S&P simply allows you to fire a heavy, ordnance and salvo weapons after moving.

Even if the Artillery weapon in question was assault, it still could not move and fire because the artillery rule prevents it.
So S&P has no bearing on the rules for it, thus, does nothing.

JinxDragon wrote:

Of course, this is all limited to Ordnance weapons which is why I can not apply it to other rules at this point in time but the argument that 'can not fire trumps slow and purposeful' does not appear correct.

Slow and Purposeful does trump "can not fire" because in the case of Ordnance there is a specific grant in the S&P/Relentless rules that allow it to.
Artillery has no such grant.

This seems pretty straight forward to me. Essentially Slow & Purposeful models count as not moving when firing those weapon types mentioned (heavy, salvo, ordnance). Is artillery another weapon type? Technically, as far as the rules go, these units don't move a millimetre all game. You can physically move it wherever you want up to its maximum move range, but as far as the rules see it, they stayed still. Think of it as the game saying "you know that unit you just moved? Yeah well that didn't happen".

 Bhazakhain wrote:
Think of it as the game saying "you know that unit you just moved? Yeah well that didn't happen".

Unfortunately, GW makes heavy use of context. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that this reference only applies to the rules for Heavy/Salvo/Ordnance, and not to other rules that might check your movement status.

...Personally, I can't help thinking the whole S&P is itself a big mistake of context, and that the "at least one model" was only meant to apply to slowing down movement, rather than the entire rule. Seems really weird that one Nob in Mega-armor joining a unit of lootas suddenly lets them all walk around for a change. But, that's just me speculating.

 Bhazakhain wrote:
Think of it as the game saying "you know that unit you just moved? Yeah well that didn't happen".

It's important to note though that that is only the case in regards of firing Heavy, Salvo or Ordnance weapons. For all other rules purposes the unit has still moved.

Uptopdownunder,
Hence that sentence at the conclusion, a rule to over-ride movement restrictions in one situation can not be equally applied to another situation. Yet that question let to some interesting side thoughts, showing an apparent sentiment that slow and purposeful non-vehicle models still can not fire ordnance weapons, because 'can not fire' prevents Slow and Purposeful from being able to trigger. It is a thought to think on a little in and of itself, and the one person putting for the reason for why it would mention ordnance at all needs to be researched and I do not feel the desire to do so at this point in time.

Another thread for another time maybe.

I don't see how when Slow and Purposeful says specifically that they can.

It helps if people actually quote the correct rule and not what they think the rule says.

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons

You count as stationary even if you moved.

SHOOTING WITH ARTILLERY

Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase - they cannot make Snap Shots.

The underlined is the context of that rule.

Since S&P counts as not moving when they fire the weapons, they can fire Artillery without issue.

The guns aren't firing weapons, they are being fired so the counts as stationary won't apply to them.

as i said, its pretty clear they can.

The artillery rule is very specific i agree, but so is slow and purpouseful.

as long as the weapon profile includes a Heavy, Salvo, or Ordnance weapon, it counts as stationary (which means it counts as though it has not moved) and thus can be fired even if it has moved.

Wouldn't it be awesome if GW actually updated their FAQ's to clear up stuff like this?

But that's not what the rules says at all Eihnlazer, it says you count as stationary if you are firing Heavy, Salvo or Ordnance. For anything else you are still considered to have moved.

I'm not sure who is on what side of the argument anymore?

Post S&P Artillery can/cannot shoot after moving in your next posts =P

As both of you agree, Artillery rule is clear: any movement will render the gun unusable, therefore any changes to the status of the shot from S&P are not relevant?
The gun piece was moved: it can't fire.
The models moving with it carrying heavy weapons can still fire them, counting as stationary.

My view : The Slow and Purposeful rule does not allow a model to fire an artillery piece that has moved.

So your telling me your weapon profile says artillery instead of Heavy X?

No what I am saying is that the rule for artillery says that if it moves it cannot fire.

S&P doesn't give you the ability to override that prohibition

Do USR's normally override restrictions that apply to a particular Unit Type? I can't really think of any examples (mostly because the Unit Type section almost universally grants buffs).

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Do USR's normally override restrictions that apply to a particular Unit Type? I can't really think of any examples (mostly because the Unit Type section almost universally grants buffs).

They can but only explicitly.

What a model would need is the ability to : fire a Unit Type Artillery that has moved.

S&P doesn't give you that.

once again, If the artillery consists of a gun with the Heavy, Salvo, or Ordanence type weaponry, it may fire as though it had not moved.

Eihnlazer wrote:
once again, If the artillery consists of a gun with the Heavy, Salvo, or Ordanence type weaponry, it may fire as though it had not moved.

The artillery rules still count it as having moved, because it did. So it has both moved and not moved. For one of the rules, it matters. Furthermore, for S&P to work the model must be firing a weapon they have. Artillery crew fire "Gun Models" and are specifically prohibited from firing "weapons they have." S&P is not triggered.

The artillery itself is a weapon that they have, or it has of and in itself.

You keep saying it has moved and cant shoot, but since it counts as stationary it actually has not moved as far as shooting is concerned.

Eihnlazer wrote:
The artillery itself is a weapon that they have, or it has of and in itself.

You keep saying it has moved and cant shoot, but since it counts as stationary it actually has not moved as far as shooting is concerned.

For only certain parts of shooting it counts as not having moved.

Eihnlazer wrote:
The artillery itself is a weapon that they have, or it has of and in itself.

You keep saying it has moved and cant shoot, but since it counts as stationary it actually has not moved as far as shooting is concerned.

No, S&P is clear: When you shoot, you count as stationary.

Only when you shoot: if you are not allowed to shoot, you cannot count your shooting as anything...

Fragile wrote:
It helps if people actually quote the correct rule and not what they think the rule says.

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons

You count as stationary even if you moved.

SHOOTING WITH ARTILLERY

Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase - they cannot make Snap Shots.

The underlined is the context of that rule.

Since S&P counts as not moving when they fire the weapons, they can fire Artillery without issue.

+1

Plain english. They can move, shoot, and assault, if any model in the unit has S&P, regardless if the artillery has moved or not.

 Rismonite wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It helps if people actually quote the correct rule and not what they think the rule says.

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons

You count as stationary even if you moved.

SHOOTING WITH ARTILLERY

Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase - they cannot make Snap Shots.

The underlined is the context of that rule.

Since S&P counts as not moving when they fire the weapons, they can fire Artillery without issue.

+1

Plain english. They can move, shoot, and assault, if any model in the unit has S&P, regardless if the artillery has moved or not.

Except you have not shown specific permission to override the Artillery rules that say if the gun model moves it cannot be fired. That restriction does not care what type the gun is. It could be Assault 40, but if it moves, it still cannot fire. You need something to specifically override the Artillery rules. SnP dose not do that.

 BlackTalos wrote:
No, S&P is clear: When you shoot, you count as stationary.

Only when you shoot: if you are not allowed to shoot, you cannot count your shooting as anything...

Rismonite, did you even read this post?

Artillery models cannot fire when they have moved, regardless of special rules. Unless they bring out a rule that says "artillery models may shoot after moving", but S&P has no such specification.

[Edit] This is pretty much the exact same post as HappyJew, different wording. Apologies.

I'd say that it can move and shoot.

As my example, a thunderfire cannon and techmarine gunner count as a single "unit". They are both T7 when being shot at and have wounds allocated the same as for a unit of tac marines. S&P seems to be a blanket rule that the "unit" can fire as stationary.

I make the point of the unit because riptides cannot be joined by IC's unless they have drones, then they count as a unit for rules purposes.

But at the end of the day this argument can go round and round in circles as there are several different converging rules.

(as a side note, relentless does not grant S&P so an IC in terminator armour would not allow the TFC to fire. I don't think there are any marine IC's that are S&P?)

Tarthenal - as I pointed out earlier there are two different restrictions when dealing with Artillery
1. They cannot fire Snap Shots.
2. If the gun model moves, it cannot be fired.

SnP overrides 1, but not 2.

Furthermore, an IC [i]can[/]i join a Riptide without Drones, just like an IC can join the sole survivng member of a Tac squad. It doesn't matter how many models are in the unit, only that the unit has the option to include more than 1.

"A unit that contains at least one model" --> "counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase."

"Unit" -> A unit with Artillery in it. Is it somehow not a unit with S&P in it if there is artillery?

The model is part of a unit that contains a S&P model and specifically refers to "stationary, even if they moved in the previous movement phase" in the rule.

 Rismonite wrote:
"A unit that contains at least one model" --> "counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase."

They don't count as stationary. They shoot counting as stationary.
If not allowed to shoot at all, then shooting as stationary isn't much help.

 Rismonite wrote:
"A unit that contains at least one model" --> "counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase."

"Unit" -> A unit with Artillery in it. Is it somehow not a unit with S&P in it if there is artillery?

The model is part of a unit that contains a S&P model and specifically refers to "stationary, even if they moved in the previous movement phase" in the rule.

If you are going to quote the rule to support your argument it helps to quote the important part of the rule.

"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule" ->"can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary."

I underlined the important bit you missed.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
"A unit that contains at least one model" --> "counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase."

They don't count as stationary. They shoot counting as stationary.
If not allowed to shoot at all, then shooting as stationary isn't much help.

"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons"

Reading guys.. Second sentence, "They can, however, SHOOT with heavy"

They can shoot, they is refering to the UNIT (which happens to contain artillery) that also has a S&P model.

Right, so you override the restriction on firing Snap Shots with Heavy weapons, the lesser shot/half range with Salvo, and the cannot fire Ordnance restrictions. Where does that override the restriction on firing an Artillery Weapon if the Gun moves?

 Happyjew wrote:
Right, so you override the restriction on firing Snap Shots with Heavy weapons, the lesser shot/half range with Salvo, and the cannot fire Ordnance restrictions. Where does that override the restriction on firing an Artillery Weapon if the Gun moves?

Ok maybe what we need to figure out if the 'gun model' is a model in the unit or just 'wargear' or 'a decorative gun model' or just something that doesn't count as a model in the unit. If there is something that says that this gun model is not a model in this unit and it's something else I can let it go.

 Rismonite wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
"A unit that contains at least one model" --> "counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase."

They don't count as stationary. They shoot counting as stationary.
If not allowed to shoot at all, then shooting as stationary isn't much help.

"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons"

Reading guys.. Second sentence, "They can, however, SHOOT with heavy"

They can shoot, they is refering to the UNIT (which happens to contain artillery) that also has a S&P model.

Yet they're barred from shooting at all. Being able to count as stationary when shooting doesn't help if not allowed to shoot.

You're seeing the word SHOOT and focusing on that, ignoring the rest of the sentence. It does not grant the ability to shoot.
It grants the ability to count as stationary, when shooting with certain weapons.

If you're not shooting with those weapons, can you count as being stationary? No.
And the Artillery restriction prevents you shooting.
So you can't fire a heavy weapon, so you can't use the SAP rule to then count as being stationary.

 Rismonite wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Right, so you override the restriction on firing Snap Shots with Heavy weapons, the lesser shot/half range with Salvo, and the cannot fire Ordnance restrictions. Where does that override the restriction on firing an Artillery Weapon if the Gun moves?

Ok maybe what we need to figure out if the 'gun model' is a model in the unit or just 'wargear' or 'a decorative gun model' or just something that doesn't count as a model in the unit. If there is something that says that this gun model is not a model in this unit and it's something else I can let it go.

The gun "figure" (to try and make this less confusing) is a model with some extra restrictions (such as not being able to have wounds allocated to it via LOS). It also has the restriction of not being able to be fired if the model moves. This has no bearing on the type of weapon it is. Whether it is Rapid Fire, Assault, Heavy, Salvo or Ordnance, it cannot fire if the model moves.

Normally when a model moves you have the following restrictions:
1. Heavy Weapons must fire Snap Shots.
2. Salvo weapons fire fewer shots at lesser range
3. Ordnance weapons cannot be fired.

SnP (and Relentless) override those restrictions, however you still ahve the additional restriction of not being able to fire an Artillery gun model if it moved that turn.

It is the exact same scenario as disembarking from a vehicle after coming in from reserve. Two restrictions on assaulting (arriving and disembarking), Assault Vehicle overrides one but not the other.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Right, so you override the restriction on firing Snap Shots with Heavy weapons, the lesser shot/half range with Salvo, and the cannot fire Ordnance restrictions. Where does that override the restriction on firing an Artillery Weapon if the Gun moves?

Ok maybe what we need to figure out if the 'gun model' is a model in the unit or just 'wargear' or 'a decorative gun model' or just something that doesn't count as a model in the unit. If there is something that says that this gun model is not a model in this unit and it's something else I can let it go.

The gun "figure" (to try and make this less confusing) is a model with some extra restrictions (such as not being able to have wounds allocated to it via LOS). It also has the restriction of not being able to be fired if the model moves. This has no bearing on the type of weapon it is. Whether it is Rapid Fire, Assault, Heavy, Salvo or Ordnance, it cannot fire if the model moves.

Gun "Figure" is a "model" with extra restrictions. Is the model in this unit?

To try and make my point, if the artillery in question was Assault 3 or Rapid Fire, then I might have given up on this.. However, it's Heavy, Salvo, or Ordinance then the second sentance of S&P seems to be telling me that units with S&P fire those weapons and count as not having moved even if they did move.

""A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons"."

The gun is a regular model in the unit that has extra restrictions and bonuses in place. People are getting hung up on the count as stationary part of the rule, however, they only count as stationary for the purposes of shooting weapons with the listed type. The Gun model adds on an additional restriction when moving that SnP does not override.

 Happyjew wrote:
The gun is a regular model in the unit that has extra restrictions and bonuses in place. People are getting hung up on the count as stationary part of the rule, however, they only count as stationary for the purposes of shooting weapons with the listed type. The Gun model adds on an additional restriction when moving that SnP does not override.

Where can I find that the S&P USR cannot override the restriction on Artillery?

The gun I'm thinking about for example's sake is Heavy 1. The second sentence of S&P seems to tell me that this heavy weapon model may shoot, counts as stationary even if it moved. It seems to be removing the very 'restriction' that artillery models have.

Eihnlazer wrote:
The artillery itself is a weapon that they have, or it has of and in itself.

You keep saying it has moved and cant shoot, but since it counts as stationary it actually has not moved as far as shooting is concerned.

But the Gun Model does not fire itself. The Gun Model is not a weapon that a Crew Model possesses, they are separate models. It has both moved and remained stationary. For Heavy, etc., it counts as stationary. For Artillery, it counts as having moved.

Do you believe that Artillery units can now assault even if a gun model is present so long as the Gun Model was fired?

"They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons"

 Rismonite wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The gun is a regular model in the unit that has extra restrictions and bonuses in place. People are getting hung up on the count as stationary part of the rule, however, they only count as stationary for the purposes of shooting weapons with the listed type. The Gun model adds on an additional restriction when moving that SnP does not override.

Where can I find that the S&P USR cannot override the restriction on Artillery?

The gun I'm thinking about for example's sake is Heavy 1. The second sentence of S&P seems to tell me that this heavy weapon model may shoot, counts as stationary even if it moved. It seems to be removing the very 'restriction' that artillery models have.

It's not. It does not say the weapon can shoot and counts as stationary if it moved.
It says that when they shoot with a Heavy weapon they count as stationary if they moved.

Shooting process - nominate a unit to shoot. It's an artillery unit that moved you cannot nominate the unit.
This is before even looking at weapon types and other special rules - SNP never comes into it.

an interesting read.

How many IC have the S&P rule anyway?

40k-noob wrote:
an interesting read.

How many IC have the S&P rule anyway?

Any Ork in Mega Armour. They also have access to Artillery units.
It's a good example to use.

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
an interesting read.

How many IC have the S&P rule anyway?

Any Ork in Mega Armour. They also have access to Artillery units.
It's a good example to use.

Just Orks? Guess it wont come up very often then.

For the record, I am of the mind that yes, they can fire. But only just barely in that camp.

mainly for the reason that "count as" has always been the same "equal to" in this game.
so an artillery piece that "counts as" stationary is the same or equal to an artillery piece that IS stationary.

40k-noob wrote:
Just Orks? Guess it wont come up very often then.

I play Orks, was just the first example that came to my head
And both Big Gunz units and Mega Armour are commonly used in Ork forces at the moment.

mainly for the reason that "count as" has always been the same "equal to" in this game.
so an artillery piece that "counts as" stationary is the same or equal to an artillery piece that IS stationary.

Counts as = is that's fine, but it's not a gneral allowance to always counts as being stationary. They count as stationary ONLY when shooting the weapons listed

I'm sure there's some random Eldar gun that makes a unit count as being in Dangerous Terrain if they move. Now you wouldn't use the SAP rule to claim you didn't move would you? To say you count as being stationary?
Only when shooting a weapon from the list can you count as being stationary, and if you can't shoot at all, that rule can't even kick in.

right, I was only taking into account the Shooting phase.

The way I see it is this:
in the Shooting phase, check to see if the artillery piece has moved, yes it moved, but S&P tells me to count is as Stationary and therefor I treat it as having not moved, thus it can be fired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
as for Eldar.....grrrr.
their "platform" weapons all have the relentless rule, seriously?!?
As if they need more help with shooting.

40k-noob wrote:
right, I was only taking into account the Shooting phase.

The way I see it is this:
in the Shooting phase, check to see if the artillery piece has moved, yes it moved, but S&P tells me to count is as Stationary and therefor I treat it as having not moved, thus it can be fired.

But you only get to use the rule when shooting the specified weapon (I'll use heavy in all future examples, make typing easier).

If you look at the shooting sequence:
Step 1 Nominate a unit to shoot
"Choose one of your units that is able to fire this turn.."

Right here at step one the artillery rules prevent you from nominating the unit. It can't shoot. You can't even nominate the unit to shoot, so the SAP rule never kicks in as you have to be shooting.
The weapons and rules don't come into effect until Step 2, when you start checking ranges.

as for Eldar.....grrrr.
their "platform" weapons all have the relentless rule, seriously?!?
As if they need more help with shooting.

I've no idea, I was talking about the eldar victim, not the Eldar's ability to shoot.

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
right, I was only taking into account the Shooting phase.

The way I see it is this:
in the Shooting phase, check to see if the artillery piece has moved, yes it moved, but S&P tells me to count is as Stationary and therefor I treat it as having not moved, thus it can be fired.

But you only get to use the rule when shooting the specified weapon (I'll use heavy in all future examples, make typing easier).

If you look at the shooting sequence:
Step 1 Nominate a unit to shoot
"Choose one of your units that is able to fire this turn.."

Right here at step one the artillery rules prevent you from nominating the unit. It can't shoot. You can't even nominate the unit to shoot, so the SAP rule never kicks in as you have to be shooting.
The weapons and rules don't come into effect until Step 2, when you start checking ranges.

as for Eldar.....grrrr.
their "platform" weapons all have the relentless rule, seriously?!?
As if they need more help with shooting.

I've no idea, I was talking about the eldar victim, not the Eldar's ability to shoot.

The is not entirely accurate. You most certainly cannot nominate the unit as the crew can snap fire their own weapons (pistols, etc) then S&P kicks in, treat the unit as stationary, then one of the crew now can fire the Heavy weapon that is part of the Artillery unit.

Example, Big Gunz with grot crew.
Grot crew can shoot pistols snap firing after moving. so you nominate that unit, then the S&P rule should kick in.

40k-noob wrote:
The is not entirely accurate. You most certainly cannot nominate the unit as the crew can snap fire their own weapons (pistols, etc) then S&P kicks in, treat the unit as stationary, then one of the crew now can fire the Heavy weapon that is part of the Artillery unit.

Example, Big Gunz with grot crew.
Grot crew can shoot pistols snap firing after moving. so you nominate that unit, then the S&P rule should kick in.

Grot krew have no pistols. So can't be nominated.
You're searching for an obscure loophole to get around this now, that's normally a good indication that's not how the rules work

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
The is not entirely accurate. You most certainly cannot nominate the unit as the crew can snap fire their own weapons (pistols, etc) then S&P kicks in, treat the unit as stationary, then one of the crew now can fire the Heavy weapon that is part of the Artillery unit.

Example, Big Gunz with grot crew.
Grot crew can shoot pistols snap firing after moving. so you nominate that unit, then the S&P rule should kick in.

Grot krew have no pistols. So can't be nominated.
You're searching for an obscure loophole to get around this now, that's normally a good indication that's not how the rules work

I dont know what grot wargear is, it was just an example.

In any case the IC will more than likely have a weapon. Say Warboss with twin linked shoota in Mega Armor joins the big gunz unit.


And it is not an obscure loophole, it is directly in the S&P rule: Correction this is the Artillery Unit Type rules
"The crewmen firing the gun cannot fire any weapons they are carrying, while the other crew members (and any Independent Characters in the unit) are free to fire their side arms"

 Happyjew wrote:
Right, so you override the restriction on firing Snap Shots with Heavy weapons, the lesser shot/half range with Salvo, and the cannot fire Ordnance restrictions. Where does that override the restriction on firing an Artillery Weapon if the Gun moves?

Context of the rule is that Artillery cannot fire Snap shots, which is the reason they cannot fire if they move. There is no 2 parts to that rule.

Fragile wrote:
Context of the rule is that Artillery cannot fire Snap shots, which is the reason they cannot fire if they move. There is no 2 parts to that rule.

Incorrect.

p46 wrote:Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase - they cannot make Snap Shots.

Your assertion is that if an Artillery was Assault or Rapid Fire it could still fire if it moved. That's demonstrably incorrect.
It cannot be fired - it also cannot make Snap Shots. This means that even if it's not a blast weapon, it can't shoot Flyers. Or fire Overwatch.

List me an assault or rapid fire Artillery weapon.

Fragile wrote:
List me an assault or rapid fire Artillery weapon.

Irrelevant. What you're doing is requiring the rules to fit all currently available weapons.
That's not how you look at rules. You make them fit all cases.

And it would still affect a Heavy weapon that wasn't Blast. I don't know if the Eldar ones fit that description or not.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
List me an assault or rapid fire Artillery weapon.

Irrelevant. What you're doing is requiring the rules to fit all currently available weapons.
That's not how you look at rules. You make them fit all cases.

And it would still affect a Heavy weapon that wasn't Blast. I don't know if the Eldar ones fit that description or not.

Not irrelevant because Artillery are not Assault or Rapid Fire, which they wouldnt be by definition. That sentences parses to the reason they cannot fire if they move is because they cannot fire Snap Shots, which Heavy,... etc. have to do.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
List me an assault or rapid fire Artillery weapon.

Irrelevant. What you're doing is requiring the rules to fit all currently available weapons.
That's not how you look at rules. You make them fit all cases.

And it would still affect a Heavy weapon that wasn't Blast. I don't know if the Eldar ones fit that description or not.

Not irrelevant because Artillery are not Assault or Rapid Fire, which they wouldnt be by definition. That sentences parses to the reason they cannot fire if they move is because they cannot fire Snap Shots, which Heavy,... etc. have to do.

A stationary, non-blast artillery shooting at a flyer would have to fire Snap Shots. Nothing to do with movement.
That is also barred due to Artillery rules. Even SAP wouldn't help there.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
List me an assault or rapid fire Artillery weapon.

Irrelevant. What you're doing is requiring the rules to fit all currently available weapons.
That's not how you look at rules. You make them fit all cases.

And it would still affect a Heavy weapon that wasn't Blast. I don't know if the Eldar ones fit that description or not.

Not irrelevant because Artillery are not Assault or Rapid Fire, which they wouldnt be by definition. That sentences parses to the reason they cannot fire if they move is because they cannot fire Snap Shots, which Heavy,... etc. have to do.

Artillery is a unit type, not a weapon type. There's no "by definition".
And you're ignoring that only Heavy Blast weapons cannot snap fire - your assertions would mean that a Heavy 1 weapon would be able to fire normally, which is explicitly denied by the actual rule I quoted.
The sentence does not parse that way - it's actually extremely incorrect to state that. The correct way of saying what you want it to is simply to state "Artillery cannot fire snap shots." That's not what the rule says at all.

rigeld2 wrote:

Artillery is a unit type, not a weapon type. There's no "by definition".

Read the descriptors on what Artillery weapons are. "So large and cumbersome that they are usually mounted on vehicles..." The very opposite of Assault and Rapid Fire. GW makes the Heavy or Ordnance. There is no reason to address them as Assault weapons or RF because they dont make them those classifications. (I'm sure FW will at some point.)

And you're ignoring that only Heavy Blast weapons cannot snap fire - your assertions would mean that a Heavy 1 weapon would be able to fire normally, which is explicitly denied by the actual rule I quoted.

I've asserted no such thing, your making up stuff now

The sentence does not parse that way - it's actually extremely incorrect to state that. The correct way of saying what you want it to is simply to state "Artillery cannot fire snap shots." That's not what the rule says at all.

That is how the sentence parses.

If you count as stationary for shooting purposes, you are not firing Snap Shots, and can hence fire.

 Happyjew wrote:
Artillery has two separate restrictions (mostly because they are almost all Heavy weapons).

1. If you move, you must fire Snap Shots when firing a Heavy weapon.
2. If the gun moves it cannot be fired.

1 has nothing to do with 2. S&P overrides 1 but not 2.

This .

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Artillery has two separate restrictions (mostly because they are almost all Heavy weapons).

1. If you move, you must fire Snap Shots when firing a Heavy weapon.
2. If the gun moves it cannot be fired.

1 has nothing to do with 2. S&P overrides 1 but not 2.

This .

S&P says:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons."

So lets look at an Artillery Unit that has been joined by an IC with S&P.

Unit is Artillery and the Joined IC does not change that.
The Unit has a model with the S&P USR. Therefor the USR applies to the entire unit.
The Artillery unit moves in the Movement Phase.
In the Shooting Phase, the Artillery unit elects to shoot.
The S&P rule says that "They (the unit) can, however shoot.....counting as stationary EVEN if they moved in the previous Movement phase."
so what does stationary mean? It means (for game purposes) not moving.
The rule states to count the unit as stationary EVEN if the unit did in fact move in the previous Movement phase, so the BRB is explicitly telling the player to IGNORE any previous movement and count the unit as having NOT MOVED.

So how then does S&P not override 2 again?

Because the "Cannot shoot if the gun model moved" is a specific rule (IOW an advanced rule) and as such cannot be overriden without specifically being mentioned.

 Happyjew wrote:
Because the "Cannot shoot if the gun model moved" is a specific rule (IOW an advanced rule) and as such cannot be overriden without specifically being mentioned.

For the record, S&P is also an "advanced rule" even more so than Unit Type Artillery.

but besides that, so you are saying that this part:

counting as stationary EVEN if they moved in the previous Movement phase

does not count as specific to you?

40k-noob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Because the "Cannot shoot if the gun model moved" is a specific rule (IOW an advanced rule) and as such cannot be overriden without specifically being mentioned.

For the record, S&P is also an "advanced rule" even more so than Unit Type Artillery.

How so? SnP applies to any and all units that have said special rule (even if they don't have any weapon that can be affected by it). Artillery rules apply only to Artillery.

but besides that, so you are saying that this part:

counting as stationary EVEN if they moved in the previous Movement phase

does not count as specific to you?

I'm saying it is not specific enough. I'm saying there are a couple of different rules involved and each part needs to be overriden. The guns cannot be fired if the gun model moves. It does not matter if the weapon in question is Assault, Heavy or Salvo. If the gun model moves, it cannot be fired. The gun model cannot be fired as Snap Shots. This means that if the model moves (as right now they are all Heavy/Ordnance) then they must fire Snap Shots, which they cannot do. SnP allows a unit to shoot Heavy/Ordnance weapons as if they were stationary. This overrides the snap shot restriction. Your conclusion breaks if GW ever releases an Artillery weapon that is Assault or Rapid Fire, where as mine works well regardless of the type of weapon.

 Happyjew wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Because the "Cannot shoot if the gun model moved" is a specific rule (IOW an advanced rule) and as such cannot be overriden without specifically being mentioned.

For the record, S&P is also an "advanced rule" even more so than Unit Type Artillery.

How so? SnP applies to any and all units that have said special rule (even if they don't have any weapon that can be affected by it). Artillery rules apply only to Artillery.

but besides that, so you are saying that this part:

counting as stationary EVEN if they moved in the previous Movement phase

does not count as specific to you?

I'm saying it is not specific enough. I'm saying there are a couple of different rules involved and each part needs to be overriden. The guns cannot be fired if the gun model moves. It does not matter if the weapon in question is Assault, Heavy or Salvo. If the gun model moves, it cannot be fired. The gun model cannot be fired as Snap Shots. This means that if the model moves (as right now they are all Heavy/Ordnance) then they must fire Snap Shots, which they cannot do. SnP allows a unit to shoot Heavy/Ordnance weapons as if they were stationary. This overrides the snap shot restriction. Your conclusion breaks if GW ever releases an Artillery weapon that is Assault or Rapid Fire, where as mine works well regardless of the type of weapon.

If you want to go the "if" route then if GW changes the Artillery unit type yada yada yada,......lets not go down that rabbit hole.

Lets stick to what we actually have to work with.
It boils down to this:
"If the gun model moves, it cannot be fired." VS "counting as stationary EVEN if they moved in the previous Movement phase."

To me, it goes likes this since the Movement happens first in the order of things in this game, the fact that S&P comes into play in the Shooting following the movement phase and S&P states to ignore the previous phases movement, it seems pretty obvious that it should override the movement restriction.

Sorry, but you keep only half quoting the SAP rule.
It specifically only counts as stationary when shooting.

If you can't shoot, it doesn't matter what you count as when shooting.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Artillery is a unit type, not a weapon type. There's no "by definition".

Read the descriptors on what Artillery weapons are. "So large and cumbersome that they are usually mounted on vehicles..." The very opposite of Assault and Rapid Fire. GW makes the Heavy or Ordnance. There is no reason to address them as Assault weapons or RF because they dont make them those classifications. (I'm sure FW will at some point.)

So you're using fluff as a reason to ignore the fact that your stance breaks rules?
Okay, but that doesn't make it valid.

And you're ignoring that only Heavy Blast weapons cannot snap fire - your assertions would mean that a Heavy 1 weapon would be able to fire normally, which is explicitly denied by the actual rule I quoted.

I've asserted no such thing, your making up stuff now

Your stance is that the snap shot (and inability to fire) statement is solely because Heavy, etc. must snap shot when moving, and blasts can't be fired as snap shots. Correct?
Assuming I understand that stance correctly, a non blast Heavy weapon, using your stance, would be able to snap shot when moving. An action that is literally specifically disallowed.

The sentence does not parse that way - it's actually extremely incorrect to state that. The correct way of saying what you want it to is simply to state "Artillery cannot fire snap shots." That's not what the rule says at all.

That is how the sentence parses.

If you count as stationary for shooting purposes, you are not firing Snap Shots, and can hence fire.

The restriction is not "can't fire because no snap shots". The restriction is can't fire because moved.

40k-noob wrote:
S&P says:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons."

So lets look at an Artillery Unit that has been joined by an IC with S&P.

Unit is Artillery and the Joined IC does not change that.
The Unit has a model with the S&P USR. Therefor the USR applies to the entire unit.
The Artillery unit moves in the Movement Phase.
In the Shooting Phase, the Artillery unit elects to shoot.
The S&P rule says that "They (the unit) can, however shoot.....counting as stationary EVEN if they moved in the previous Movement phase."
so what does stationary mean? It means (for game purposes) not moving.
The rule states to count the unit as stationary EVEN if the unit did in fact move in the previous Movement phase, so the BRB is explicitly telling the player to IGNORE any previous movement and count the unit as having NOT MOVED.

So how then does S&P not override 2 again?

Red part is simply wrong, it cannot elect to shoot if it is not allowed to shoot per Artillery rules.

What comes after if completely right, but unfortunately does not apply as the red part stops you from going any further in that system...

The wording on artillery is that the gun model cannot be fired if it moves at all in the movement phase. Remember it is not the gun that fires but a crew member that fires the gun. Nothing in slow and purposeful changes the restriction on the gun model it cannot be fired if it moved. That restriction is specific to gun models in artillery units and has nothing to do with the type of weapon mounted on them. The crew has no permission to use the gun if the gun was moved.

 grendel083 wrote:
Sorry, but you keep only half quoting the SAP rule.
It specifically only counts as stationary when shooting.

If you can't shoot, it doesn't matter what you count as when shooting.

Shooting is the only thing we are talking about. You claim you cannot shoot because you moved. SNP says that if you are shooting you count as not having moved. If you did not move, then you can shoot.

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Sorry, but you keep only half quoting the SAP rule.
It specifically only counts as stationary when shooting.

If you can't shoot, it doesn't matter what you count as when shooting.

Shooting is the only thing we are talking about. You claim you cannot shoot because you moved. SNP says that if you are shooting you count as not having moved. If you did not move, then you can shoot.

But unless you can actually shoot, you can't count as stationary. Shooting is part of the requirements to use it, and that's something they can't do.

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Sorry, but you keep only half quoting the SAP rule.
It specifically only counts as stationary when shooting.

If you can't shoot, it doesn't matter what you count as when shooting.

Shooting is the only thing we are talking about. You claim you cannot shoot because you moved. SNP says that if you are shooting you count as not having moved. If you did not move, then you can shoot.

I highlighted the part where your interpretation is flawed.
If you are shooting, SNP will indeed apply. However you "cannot be fired if they moved at all" seems pretty clear that the "if" will not happen.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Sorry, but you keep only half quoting the SAP rule.
It specifically only counts as stationary when shooting.

If you can't shoot, it doesn't matter what you count as when shooting.

Shooting is the only thing we are talking about. You claim you cannot shoot because you moved. SNP says that if you are shooting you count as not having moved. If you did not move, then you can shoot.

I highlighted the part where your interpretation is flawed.
If you are shooting, SNP will indeed apply. However you "cannot be fired if they moved at all" seems pretty clear that the "if" will not happen.

And you would be wrong. In order for an Artillery Unit to fire a weapon, it has to check it if moved in the previous phase. If that unit has SNP and is firing one of those types of weapons, then it counts as not having moved. Therefore it has permission to fire.

Fragile wrote:
And you would be wrong. In order for an Artillery Unit to fire a weapon, it has to check it if moved in the previous phase. If that unit has SNP and is firing one of those types of weapons, then it counts as not having moved. Therefore it has permission to fire.

The underlined part, how is it firing one of those weapons? It's not allowed to.
You're correct in that it is a requirement to count as being stationary. But it's a requirement that can't be fulfilled.

It's a strange logical loop.

You can't do something. But if you do it anyway, you're allowed.

You need to break a rule first, before you can count as not breaking a rule.
Problem is, you can't break a rule.

Fragile wrote:
And you would be wrong. In order for an Artillery Unit to fire a weapon, it has to check it if moved in the previous phase. If that unit has SNP and is firing one of those types of weapons, then it counts as not having moved. Therefore it has permission to fire.

Under your interpretation, if there was non-Blast artillery would it be able to move and fire without SNP?
Extremely relevant question - from what I understand you're saying the answer would be yes.

 grendel083 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
And you would be wrong. In order for an Artillery Unit to fire a weapon, it has to check it if moved in the previous phase. If that unit has SNP and is firing one of those types of weapons, then it counts as not having moved. Therefore it has permission to fire.

The underlined part, how is it firing one of those weapons? It's not allowed to.
You're correct in that it is a requirement to count as being stationary. But it's a requirement that can't be fulfilled.

It's a strange logical loop.

You can't do something. But if you do it anyway, you're allowed.

You need to break a rule first, before you can count as not breaking a rule.
Problem is, you can't break a rule.

It is not allowed to fire because it moved. IF it has SNP then it did not move and can fire. This is no different than the application of SNP to Heavy weapons. According to your logic you would have to fire Snap shots with a heavy weapon on a SNP or Relentless model.

Fragile wrote:
It is not allowed to fire because it moved. IF it has SNP then it did not move and can fire. This is no different than the application of SNP to Heavy weapons.

Except you need to be shooting certain weapons before you can claim to be stationary, as you yourself pointed out just before. You can't just claim to be staionary, that's not what the rule says.

According to your logic you would have to fire Snap shots with a heavy weapon on a SNP or Relentless model.

Not at all.
Step one of the shooting process involes a step called "Who can Shoot" In this case Artillery can't, so the process stops here (tp quote "Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit's ability to shoot" - Artillery certainly applies here).
Roll to hit is step 3, at this point it is well established you are firing a heavy weapon, so the SAP rule has kicked in preventing you from having to use Snap Shots.

I know it is a minor point, but it has been bothering me sine page 1.

Certain people are claiming Artillery cannot fire after moving. This is incorrect. An artillery unit can fire after moving, however, the gun model cannot be fired.

 Happyjew wrote:
An artillery unit can fire after moving, however, the gun model cannot be fired.

A good point well made.

I'd also like to point out the "Who can Shoot" rule I mentioned is on a per model basis, not unit.
"Certain situations prevent a model from firing"
So my point still stands, the gun model is prevented from shooting. Therefore cannot be firing a heavy weapon in order to claim to be staionary.

Ok people, I think it's very clear.

In the rule book, Ordnance weapons cannot be fired by non vehicle models if they moved in the previous movement phase.

Artillery cannot shoot if it moved in the previous movement phase.

Slow and Purposeful is a special rule that allows a unit and or a model or a unit with a model with the Slow and Purposeful special rule to fire heavy, ordnance salvo weapons and count as stationary even if it moved in the previous movement phase.

I know, some of you will say, it doesn't say artillery. But artillery fires heavy and ordnance packages.

Slow and purposeful trumps both Ordnance and Artillery rules.

Unless there's a FAQ on it, it seems pretty obvious.

If it's "pretty clear" and "obvious" there wouldn't be a 4 page thread on the subject, would there?

I'm looking at S&P on pg 42. and the Artillery rules on pg 46. (I'm not typing out every bit of it because nobody else is and I few are reading it.)

I just can't find anything that tells me RAW that Artillery's restriction should somehow be treated differently from any other mechanic in the game that is affected by S&P. It's another model in the unit that also has S&P that is fired by crew that also have S&P.

-The unit has S&P the entire time the Independant Character is in the unit. It's not just a shooting based rule the unit is S&P the whole time.

-There is no exception made RAW that S&P somehow triggers 'when' you shoot (whoever that guy is, go read the rule it says "Can Shoot" pg 42.). You can shoot heavy.

-The crowd that is hungup on the comma in the second sentence of S&P. This comma is not some kind of if/then statement.

-Stationary, if you want to split hairs I can see people on the fence right here. If you are me and you are arguing that maybe Orkz should be allowed to do this then you want to believe stationary means "not moved". The game doesn't have a definition for this word anywhere. However the end of that sentence seems to directly imply permission to units that have shooting restriction based on movement. I can see some wiggle room for people saying this was intended to allow non-artillery that would be firing snapshots to be fired as full ballistic instead of being something artillery is allowed to do. The problem is it reads like it was written for artillery also.

It's probably because I'm a bias ork, but I don't see how it can be ruled against, there just isn't enough rules in the artillery section to imply that restriction is special enough that S&P can't apply.

Yes it's probably unintended and needs a FAQ. RAW is what this forum was for though right?

Let the grots fire the things while running wouldn't it just add to what is already a spectacular comedy? Imagine a Kannon being fired and just backpedaling over some grots and slamming into another gun then the Boss turning around screaming at everyone. It's certainly about as Orky as T-Shirt saves, D3 Loota Shots and fast open topped vehicles.

Rismonite, there are two rules in effect regarding Artillery.

Since the weapon is Heavy (or Ordnance) then if the firing model moves it must fire Snap Shots (or not at all). Since the gun model cannot be fired as a Snap Shot, then this rule forbids it from being fired.

Additionally, if the gun model moves at all, it cannot be fired. This is independent of the weapon type. Even if the weapon type in question was Salvo or Assault (both which can be fired after moving), the Artillery rules specifically forbid it.

SnP overrides the restriction put in place by the first part. Without specifically mentioning Artillery, it does not override the second part.

 Happyjew wrote:
Rismonite, there are two rules in effect regarding Artillery.

Since the weapon is Heavy (or Ordnance) then if the firing model moves it must fire Snap Shots (or not at all). Since the gun model cannot be fired as a Snap Shot, then this rule forbids it from being fired.

Additionally, if the gun model moves at all, it cannot be fired. This is independent of the weapon type. Even if the weapon type in question was Salvo or Assault (both which can be fired after moving), the Artillery rules specifically forbid it.

SnP overrides the restriction put in place by the first part. Without specifically mentioning Artillery, it does not override the second part.

I'm reading the artillery rule there is nothing that says the second sentence of S&P cannot affect artillery based on it being a 'independent weapon type' 'gun figure' 'special restriction' or anything else here. The unit has S&P as long as that Mega Armored Warboss is part of the unit and part of the perk is models with S&P can shoot a kannon like it was stationary and hadn't moved in the movement phase.

If it hasn't moved in the movement phase and is considered stationary, how has it moved?

 Rismonite wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Rismonite, there are two rules in effect regarding Artillery.

Since the weapon is Heavy (or Ordnance) then if the firing model moves it must fire Snap Shots (or not at all). Since the gun model cannot be fired as a Snap Shot, then this rule forbids it from being fired.

Additionally, if the gun model moves at all, it cannot be fired. This is independent of the weapon type. Even if the weapon type in question was Salvo or Assault (both which can be fired after moving), the Artillery rules specifically forbid it.

SnP overrides the restriction put in place by the first part. Without specifically mentioning Artillery, it does not override the second part.

I'm reading the artillery rule there is nothing that says the second sentence of S&P cannot affect artillery based on it being a 'independent weapon type' 'gun figure' 'special restriction' or anything else here. The unit has S&P as long as that Mega Armored Warboss is part of the unit and part of the perk is models with S&P can shoot a kannon like it was stationary and hadn't moved in the movement phase.

If it hasn't moved in the movement phase and is considered stationary, how has it moved?

The very first sentence of Shooting with Artillery "Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase" This has nothing to do with the weapon type being dragged around. If there was an Artillery weapon that was an Assault 20 weapon, if the gun model moves, then the gun cannot be fired. SnP deals with firing weapons of specified types and "Artillery Gun model" is not listed.

Well, if someone wants to argue that "counts as stationary" doesn't have the same consequences as not moving at all then I'll take my jink cover save on my monolith, please. And you can open the door to any other cheese that this interpretation might invite in.

Before I read the FAQ, I interpreted that "heavy skimmer", where heavy means that it counts as stationary even if it moved, negates the jink special rule. I see no reason why S&P shouldn't affect an artillery unit if it would have the same consequences for a unit that was armed with a heavy blast weapon.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Rismonite, there are two rules in effect regarding Artillery.

Since the weapon is Heavy (or Ordnance) then if the firing model moves it must fire Snap Shots (or not at all). Since the gun model cannot be fired as a Snap Shot, then this rule forbids it from being fired.

Additionally, if the gun model moves at all, it cannot be fired. This is independent of the weapon type. Even if the weapon type in question was Salvo or Assault (both which can be fired after moving), the Artillery rules specifically forbid it.

SnP overrides the restriction put in place by the first part. Without specifically mentioning Artillery, it does not override the second part.

I'm reading the artillery rule there is nothing that says the second sentence of S&P cannot affect artillery based on it being a 'independent weapon type' 'gun figure' 'special restriction' or anything else here. The unit has S&P as long as that Mega Armored Warboss is part of the unit and part of the perk is models with S&P can shoot a kannon like it was stationary and hadn't moved in the movement phase.

If it hasn't moved in the movement phase and is considered stationary, how has it moved?

The very first sentence of Shooting with Artillery "Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase" This has nothing to do with the weapon type being dragged around. If there was an Artillery weapon that was an Assault 20 weapon, if the gun model moves, then the gun cannot be fired. SnP deals with firing weapons of specified types and "Artillery Gun model" is not listed.

We both know we aren't this ignorant, I don't know why I don't just let this go. I know the rule isn't for artillery, it's just written such that it could be used for it. We are both standing on top this word 'stationary' that has no definition in this book and it's very easy to stand one side of the fence or the other on this issue because S&P's "Stationary" isn't specific about it's application to artillery if intended at all.

 Rismonite wrote:
We both know we aren't this ignorant, I don't know why I don't just let this go. I know the rule isn't for artillery, it's just written such that it could be used for it. We are both standing on top this word 'stationary' that has no definition in this book and it's very easy to stand one side of the fence or the other on this issue because S&P's "Stationary" isn't specific about it's application to artillery if intended at all.

I disagree. The way the rules are written, in order for one rule to override another, it needs to specifically mention that rule. For example, You cannot assault the turn you disembark from a vehicle, Assault Vehicle special rule specifically overrides this. If a model with a Heavy weapon moves, it must fire Snap Shots. Relentless specifically overrides this. If a unit is caught in a Sweeping Advance, it is removed as a casualty. ATSKNF specifically counters that.

Additionally, the rules don't define every single word. We don't need to break out a dictionary, because nobody is using stationary incorrectly. They are also not spelling it stationery, which is something completely different.

Of course the unit counting as being stationery while firing ordinance is rather funny to picture.

What I meant by define was I can use the word Stationary as "Counts for the purposes of artillery" or anything such. The fact that I have to go with webster is perhaps what I mean.

Also, how many Orkz have made Kannons from pencil sharpeners with the hole?

Btw you just made me reread half my posts on here to find out if I misspelled stationary like that :p

You can't move then shoot heavy, ordnance and salvo weapons at full ballistic skill.

But if you have relentless or slow and purposeful special rule, you use your full ballistic skill after moving in the same turn. Relentless and slow and purposeful count as if stationary.

What is hard to understand about the use of stationary?

Johnnytorrance wrote:
You can't move then shoot heavy, ordnance and salvo weapons at full ballistic skill.

But if you have relentless or slow and purposeful special rule, you use your full ballistic skill after moving in the same turn. Relentless and slow and purposeful count as if stationary.

What is hard to understand about the use of stationary?

Nothing at all.
What is so hard to understand about "it's irrelevant as the gun is forbidden from firing in the first place"?

This is a simple IF/ Then condition

If ( a heavy weapon moves) Then (it fires snap shots)
If (artillery moves) Then (it cannot fire).

SNP counts both as being stationary for the purposes of firing.

The application is the same for SNP. If you claim that Artillery cannot fire, then you are also saying that Heavy must snap shot.

Fragile wrote:
This is a simple IF/ Then condition

If ( a heavy weapon moves) Then (it fires snap shots)
If (artillery moves) Then (it cannot fire).

SNP counts both as being stationary for the purposes of firing.

The application is the same for SNP. If you claim that Artillery cannot fire, then you are also saying that Heavy must snap shot.

The underlined is incorrect. And you've again avoided the fact that your interpretation means that Heavy non-Blast Artillery would be able to fire, despite the rule specifically saying it can't.
Or that Assault/Rapid Fire artillery (perhaps there already is some in FW books) would be able to fire with no issues.

Considering that SNP does not address Assault or Rapid Fire, that argument is moot.

Fragile wrote:
Considering that SNP does not address Assault or Rapid Fire, that argument is moot.

It's not. It's just convenient for you to ignore the consequences of your interpretation.
I'm showing you it's incorrect. That's just one issue you refuse to address.

You havent shown anything other than to say a nonblast Heavy weapon can fire if it moved (without SNP). Your just doing a strawman argument.

For the purposes of firing a Hvy, Ord, or Sal weapon, you count as stationary even if you moved. Therefore bypassing your restriction of not firing because you moved.

Except you haven't bypassed it. What specifically gives you permission to override the Artillery rules? It is not being able to fire Heavy/Ordnance/Salvo. That has nothing to do with whether or not the gun model moved. Which is what forbids it from being fired.

Only if you're allowed to fire do you count as stationary. When you are told you cannot shoot, how are you getting to the point where you count as if you are stationary or not? Citation needed, as you have continually ignored this.

Fragile wrote:
You havent shown anything other than to say a nonblast Heavy weapon can fire if it moved (without SNP). Your just doing a strawman argument.

No, I'm not. I'm not pretending you're saying something - you have explicitly said it and I'm showing the consequence.

For the purposes of firing a Hvy, Ord, or Sal weapon, you count as stationary even if you moved. Therefore bypassing your restriction of not firing because you moved.

When you fire one of those, you count as stationary.
Do you have permission to fire? The artillery rules say no, you say yes. I wonder who I should trust... the rules or someone who is making things up.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only if you're allowed to fire do you count as stationary. When you are told you cannot shoot, how are you getting to the point where you count as if you are stationary or not? Citation needed, as you have continually ignored this.

This sounds an awfully like an "order of operation" issue.

One expressly forbids shooting after moving (artillery rule).

Another is a USR that determines heavy weapons "count as stationary" when firing.

O.o

It's confusing because the entire squad has S&P, by the time the shooting phase comes, those models haven't moved for all intent and purposes.

I'm leaning towards the USR overrides that artillery restriction.

And beside... who cares? You'd basically have a squad of T7 models walking 6" per turn. Whoopee-do.

That's my humble read...

 whembly wrote:
It's confusing because the entire squad has S&P, by the time the shooting phase comes, those models haven't moved for all intent and purposes.

For the millionth time - that's not what the rule actually says.

And beside... who cares?

People who play by the rules?

rigeld2 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
It's confusing because the entire squad has S&P, by the time the shooting phase comes, those models haven't moved for all intent and purposes.

For the millionth time - that's not what the rule actually says.

And beside... who cares?

People who play by the rules?

Okay.. .maybe my head is stuck around the general rule for firing heavy weapons.

Does it list out what happens if you move a heavy weapon? (ie, what counts as stationary or not?)

EDIT: *click* after thinking about, now I believe you're right. Artillery forbids shooting if you move, full stop. In the follow shooting phase, you don't even have an artillery-gun to shoot.

 whembly wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
It's confusing because the entire squad has S&P, by the time the shooting phase comes, those models haven't moved for all intent and purposes.

For the millionth time - that's not what the rule actually says.

And beside... who cares?

People who play by the rules?

Okay.. .maybe my head is stuck around the general rule for firing heavy weapons.

Does it list out what happens if you move a heavy weapon? (ie, what counts as stationary or not?)

Does what list out?
SNP does not say "those models haven't moved for all intent and purposes." At all.

I know...

See my edit above.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only if you're allowed to fire do you count as stationary. When you are told you cannot shoot, how are you getting to the point where you count as if you are stationary or not? Citation needed, as you have continually ignored this.

And a plasma cannon cannot fire if it moves since it cannot Snap Fire. This is no different.

Nope, very different. The unit is still eligible to shoot, that weapon isn't barring snp.

There is a dlear distinction in timing here. One you are ignoring

There is no distinction. SNP grants the ability to ignore movement. It breaks Snap Shot and Artillery rules because both are restrictions based on movement. Since SNP models did not move, you have no restriction.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only if you're allowed to fire do you count as stationary. When you are told you cannot shoot, how are you getting to the point where you count as if you are stationary or not? Citation needed, as you have continually ignored this.

And a plasma cannon cannot fire if it moves since it cannot Snap Fire. This is no different.

Right it cannot Snap Fire. Neither can an Artillery Gun. The difference is that Artillery [i]specifically[/]i forbids you from firing the gun model if it moved as well as not being able to fire Snap Shots.

And it did not move if it was SNP and one of those types of weapons. You cannot apply the process of SNP to one case and not another.

Fragile wrote:
And it did not move if it was SNP and one of those types of weapons. You cannot apply the process of SNP to one case and not another.

You can actually. Because they're evaluated at difference steps.
But since you ignore that simple fact, and any other facts that prove you wrong, I'm not sure why I'm replying.

Because you have shown nothing that contradicts "counts as stationary".

Fragile wrote:
Because you have shown nothing that contradicts "counts as stationary".

"for the purposes of firing Heavy, Ordnance, and Salvo weapons."

You missed a bit.

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Because you have shown nothing that contradicts "counts as stationary".

"for the purposes of firing Heavy, Ordnance, and Salvo weapons."

You missed a bit.

Not at all, that is entirely what we have been talking about, to have repeated it every post is redundant. If said Artillery weapon fits one of those types, then SNP works.

But then you need to show permission to override the Artillery rule of "The gun model cannot be fired if it moved." You keep claiming the ability to fire Heavy weapons as if stationary is enough permission, but it is not.

The artillery rule is a restriction if it moved. With SNP it counts as stationary, which means it did not move. Which means it can fire.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You'd basically have a squad of T7 models walking 6" per turn. Whoopee-do.

I know you already changed your mind about the rule but, Mugan Ra in an Eldar artillery squad with the D cannons, being able to move and still fire would be really overpowered especially because their one downside is the relatively small range of the D cannons.

Fragile wrote:
The artillery rule is a restriction if it moved. With SNP it counts as stationary, which means it did not move. Which means it can fire.

That part is wrong. SNP does not "make you stationary"....

SNP says you are Stationary when you fire your weapon.
But you can't fire because of Artillery RaW.

You just keep breaking Artillery RaW and then applying SNP after doing so.

Do Not even read the SNP rule if you have no weapon.... Or are you going to tell me SNP affect how i shoot with my hormagaunts? There is no weapon to shoot, you therefore do not apply SNP.
Trying to make it clear...

You brought nothing new to the argument.

Artillery cannot fire because they moved. SNP lets you fire counting as stationary even if you moved.

Except artillery allows for no exceptions.

It says "moved at all"

The same wording does not appear under Ordnance, which is permitted to fire under the slow and purposeful rules.

It does not offer the same permission to artillery, which follows it's own set of rules.

Fragile wrote:
You brought nothing new to the argument.

Artillery cannot fire because they moved. SNP lets you fire counting as stationary even if you moved.

Only when you get to firing the weapon can you count as stationary. With Artillery you are not allowed to fire the gun, if you have moved.

The prohibition kicks in before SaP can trigger, again. You are simply just ignoring the evidence that proves you wrong.

Fragile wrote:
You brought nothing new to the argument.

Artillery cannot fire because they moved. SNP lets you fire counting as stationary even if you moved.

You are basically reading SNP inappropriately. SNP doesn't just "let you fire" regardless of what you do...
It only allows you to count certain weapons as stationary once you fire.

As many have pointed out, RaI if they wanted SNP to override Artillery, it would have to contain Assault weapons too...

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You brought nothing new to the argument.

Artillery cannot fire because they moved. SNP lets you fire counting as stationary even if you moved.

Only when you get to firing the weapon can you count as stationary. With Artillery you are not allowed to fire the gun, if you have moved.

The prohibition kicks in before SaP can trigger, again. You are simply just ignoring the evidence that proves you wrong.

To be fair, ordnance doesn't allow move and shoot either. Except ordnance doesn't have "at all" in its wording.

It says "moved at all"

This wording has no bearing on the argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You brought nothing new to the argument.

Artillery cannot fire because they moved. SNP lets you fire counting as stationary even if you moved.

Only when you get to firing the weapon can you count as stationary. With Artillery you are not allowed to fire the gun, if you have moved.

The prohibition kicks in before SaP can trigger, again. You are simply just ignoring the evidence that proves you wrong.

You have yet to provide any. Where does your prohibition kick in? Look at the shooting steps on pg12. Step 1 Nominate Unit to Shoot is where you check for moving with Artillery, it is also where you check for moving with a heavy blast weapon. Neither can fire, however, SNP kicks in and overrides, allowing you do finish the steps. So where is your other prohibition?

The difference is that the Gun Model may not be fired if it moved. The Gun does not fire itself, it is fired by a crewman (which by the way, nothing prohibits a crewman from moving and then firing an artillery piece that didn't move.) The restriction is on the gun model itself, and nothing gives the crewman permission to use the gun model if the gun model has moved. The crewman can fire any heavy, ordinance or salvo weapons he may be carrying, but still cannot override the Gun models own rule about not being used if it had moved.

Fragile - it was provided by others, already

Step one is when you determine if the UNIT can fire. An artilllery unit cannot fire if it moved. Stop. Do not go further

You do not determine if the weapon can fire (heavy blast that moved) until further down the shoorting phase. At this point you ARE shooting, so CAN use SNP.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Step one is when you determine if the UNIT can fire. An artilllery unit cannot fire if it moved. Stop. Do not go further

Just like to further add to this.
Step one also determines if a MODEL can fire, not just a unit.

See "Who can shoot?"
"Certain situations prevent a model from firing"

Also it needs to be pointed out that the Artillery restriction is on gun models, not the unit. If the crew had pistols for example, the unit can move and shoot just fine with those pistols (but not with a gun model's weapon).

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You'd basically have a squad of T7 models walking 6" per turn. Whoopee-do.

I know you already changed your mind about the rule but, Mugan Ra in an Eldar artillery squad with the D cannons, being able to move and still fire would be really overpowered especially because their one downside is the relatively small range of the D cannons.

Can't they do that already? I thought eldar weapons plateform were relentless... unless, that was changed in the new codex.

 whembly wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You'd basically have a squad of T7 models walking 6" per turn. Whoopee-do.

I know you already changed your mind about the rule but, Mugan Ra in an Eldar artillery squad with the D cannons, being able to move and still fire would be really overpowered especially because their one downside is the relatively small range of the D cannons.

Can't they do that already? I thought eldar weapons plateform were relentless... unless, that was changed in the new codex.

The Eldar have 2 kinds of platforms. The ones that Guardians can take in their units are relentless. The Heavy Support options are artillery and do not have relentless.

I think FlyerMM said it perfectly. The Gun Model doesn't fire it's own weapon. If it did then SNP would allow it to do so. Other models in the unit must be used to fire the artillery weapon. SNP only allows models to fire their own weapons if they are Heavy/Ordinance/Salvo but doesn't mention anything about firing another model's weapon like in the case of Artillery. And since SNP does not mention artillery in it's rules then you do not have permission to fire the artillery piece if it moved, even with SNP.

FYI, the Eldar Guardian Heavy Weapon platforms are classified as Infantry, not artillery. They are able to fire after moving - the Relentless USR just lets them use their full BS as though they were stationary.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fragile - it was provided by others, already

Step one is when you determine if the UNIT can fire. An artilllery unit cannot fire if it moved. Stop. Do not go further

You do not determine if the weapon can fire (heavy blast that moved) until further down the shoorting phase. At this point you ARE shooting, so CAN use SNP.

Which step, 2, 3, 4, or 5 ?

Fragile wrote:
Which step, 2, 3, 4, or 5 ?

Step 3 is the first time a model is refered to as firing.
Step 1 and 2 are determining if a model/unit can fire (See "Who can shoot?", "Line of Sight", "Checking Range" and "Which models can fire?").
So only once you hit step 3 is a model/unit actually firing. This is where SAP would kick in.

Unfortunatly the gun model was barred from shooting at step 1 (See "Who Can Shoot?")