I am curious what other peoples views are, both for and against, and reasons why?

If blood angels can then SW can!

nope simples

I wouldnt mind seeing a large bundle dex where all the space marine chapters are listed as different chapters within it (pun intended). It would be a hella expensive book to buy though. Doubt it will ever happen because then they wouldnt be able to piecemeal them out one at a time as they do now.
So while it would sell, it wouldnt net them as much money overall in the big picture so I would say no.

I wouldn't mind it at all if it were done well, but I am afraid that getting the SW to adhere to the C:SM format will require a whole lot of work. The SW codex is a lot more divergent than the BT, BA or DA codices.
They would need to get a supplement for their fluff and most of their special rules though.

IMO the Wolves lack answers to flyers and thats about the only huge flaw i can think of with them.. I usualy ally with a good anti air army when I plan out my lists. But if they get an update they need Flakk Missles and some form of flyer.

By doing each of the divergent chapters as different sections of said book, you could effectivel just have it as a compilation of the codexes put in one binding. The advantage is that the armory for vehicles and weapons and such could be compiled together at the front or back with listings of what chapter has access to which and avoid double printing. For example the rhino entry could be put in once instead of once for each chapter to save space.

No
1] We have way to many Unique Units.
2] Has been thier own Codex since 2nd Edition
3] It could give Access to Codex: Space Marines to TWC.

 A GumyBear wrote:
If blood angels can then SW can!

Not even a comparison. Blood Angels have fewer unique options than Space Wolves have compliant ones. We've got
Blood Angels have 6 Unique named Characters, and 6 or 7 Unique units besides. (These numbers could all be off by +/-1, I'm using battlescribe to count it up since I don't own the BA Codex.)
Space Wolves have 8 Unique named characters, and 15 unique units besides.
No contest.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
If blood angels can then SW can!

Not even a comparison. Blood Angels have fewer unique options than Space Wolves have compliant ones. We've got
Blood Angels have 6 Unique named Characters, and 6 or 7 Unique units besides. (These numbers could all be off by +/-1, I'm using battlescribe to count it up since I don't own the BA Codex.)
Space Wolves have 8 Unique named characters, and 15 unique units besides.
No contest.

What're those 15 unique units?

SW, BA, and DA have always had their own codices, and that will never change. I know Templars got rolled, but they were an army who only got a real codex in 4th edition. They never got updated after that because they didn't sell as well as GW had hoped.

That being said, Space wolves is on it's third codex and has been it's own army since at least 2nd edition. (Rogue trader is a little before my time so I'm not sure if they were a faction back then) Besides, with the exception of their vehicles, every space wolf unit is different from their marine equivalent, or a unique unit in it's own right.

1] Wolf Guard
2] Grey Hunters
3] Blood claws
4] Swift Claws
5] Wolf Scouts
6] Swiftclaws
7] Skyclaws
8] TWC
9] Fenresian Wolves
10] Lone Wolves
11] Long Fangs
12] Rune Priest
13] Wolf Priest
14] Iron Priest
15] Wolf Lord
16] Wolf Guard Battle Leader
17] Space Wolf Contemptnor Dread [IA]

From what I found....
1. Lone Wolf
2. Wolf Scouts (although it really comes down to extra weapon choices and a ws/bs of 4)
3. ?Grey Hunters? (CCW and no commander as well as no heavies and can't combat squad)
4. Blood Claws
5. Fenresian Wolf Packs
6. Skyclaw assault squad
7. Swiftclaw Biker Squad
8. Thunderwolf Cavalry
9. ?Long Fangs? (basically Devestators+Split Fire)
10. Wolf Guard (basically company command squad combined with terminators combined with veterans combined with basically being the only form of sergeants *shrugs*)
That's what I found.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:
1] Wolf Guard
2] Grey Hunters
3] Blood claws
4] Swift Claws
5] Wolf Scouts
6] Swiftclaws
7] Skyclaws
8] TWC
9] Fenresian Wolves
10] Lone Wolves
11] Long Fangs
12] Rune Priest
13] Wolf Priest
14] Iron Priest
15] Wolf Lord
16] Wolf Guard Battle Leader
17] Space Wolf Contemptnor Dread [IA]

To be fair Lone Wolves are barely different, Rune Priests really only have 2 different things (psyker powers which BA also has and really they are simply librarians and then a stupid item), Wolf Priests and Iron Priests are really just tech priests and chaplains in disguise. Also Contemptor Dread doesn't count. FW stuff doesn't really matter in this as it has nothing to do with the codex.

 StarTrotter wrote:
That's what I found. Oh and Wolf Guard, although they are very similar to the company command squad

E$xept that is not what they do, they, but they are to be parted out to become the leaders of other units.
The other thing is How many Pages of Special Rules and Exeptions would have to be writen in adding how many pages [and price] to Codex: Space Marines?

Yeah I already edited that part. I remembered them and then continued to edit it. Wolf Guard are... odd. They are basically terminators+CCS+Sergeants+a weaker version of a captain+Veterans

Still though, all I got were 10 models. Wolf Lord for example is really just a company captain. Having a different name really doesn't mean anything.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
That's what I found. Oh and Wolf Guard, although they are very similar to the company command squad

E$xept that is not what they do, they, but they are to be parted out to become the leaders of other units.
The other thing is How many Pages of Special Rules and Exeptions would have to be writen in adding how many pages [and price] to Codex: Space Marines?

That could easily be removed...

remember if there is a slight diffrence, they could be made to be not diffrent... or they could be removed.

(i'm against rolling he dexes togeather for a lot fo reasons these days)

 Anpu42 wrote:
1] Wolf Guard

Fair enough.

 Anpu42 wrote:

2] Grey Hunters

Tactical Marines with different options. Hardly "unique".

 Anpu42 wrote:

3] Blood claws

Assault Marines on foot with Rage.

 Anpu42 wrote:

4] Swift Claws

Bikers. Big deal.

 Anpu42 wrote:
1]
5] Wolf Scouts

Could easily be an upgrade to Scouts, hardly "unique".

 Anpu42 wrote:

6] Swiftclaws

See number 4, assuming that "Swift Claws" and "Swiftclaws" is the same unit.

 Anpu42 wrote:

7] Skyclaws

See number 3 minus "on foot".

 Anpu42 wrote:

8] TWC

Fair enough, although it could easily represent Bikers with access to Melee Weapons.

 Anpu42 wrote:

9] Fenresian Wolves

Are they a separate unit? I thought they were wargear. If they are, fair enough.

 Anpu42 wrote:

10] Lone Wolves

Fair enough.

 Anpu42 wrote:

11] Long Fangs

Devastators.

 Anpu42 wrote:

12] Rune Priest

Librarians.

 Anpu42 wrote:

13] Wolf Priest

Chaplains.

 Anpu42 wrote:

14] Iron Priest

Techmarines.

 Anpu42 wrote:

15] Wolf Lord
16] Wolf Guard Battle Leader

Captain-equivalents.

Anpu42 583045 6599360 e3493d3ef9090c105aa484a902e4d750.jpg
17 wrote: Space Wolf Contemptnor Dread [IA]

Contemptor Dreadnought. Seriously, it's a Contemptor with some extra stuff just because, there's no reason it can't be played as a normal one.

In summary, your list of 17 "unique" units is actually a list of 4 unique units, of which one is dubious at best IMO.

On a side note, you know what sounds creepy. If GW made the sagas into Warlord traits O.o (7 sagas. 6 rolls)

 Anpu42 wrote:
1] Wolf Guard Veteran +1
2] Grey Hunters Tactical marines +1
3] Blood claws assault marines (more numbers less skill) 0
4] Swift Claws bikers -1
5] Wolf Scouts scouts +1 (DA used to have this as well but without the weapon selection)
6] Swiftclaws Repeat
7] Skyclaws assault marines -1
8] TWC bikers +1
9] Fenresian Wolves Unique
10] Lone Wolves unique version of veterans
11] Long Fangs Devs +1
12] Rune Priest Librarian +1
13] Wolf Priest are these even used?
14] Iron Priest tech marine (again are these even used?)
15] Wolf Lord captain +1
16] Wolf Guard Battle Leader Sergeant +1
17] Space Wolf Contemptnor Dread [IA] don't all chapters have these?

So I would give you 2 truely unique units and a bunch of vanilla marines +1

Now as to the actually question. I think that all marines should be in one giant book yes it would be expensive yes it would have stuff a lot wouldn't use. However, it would help the release schedule it would help ensure that codecies are not left in the dust for several editions and if done properly (I never expect this to happen mind you) it would allow for greater balance between the marine factions and hopefully the other codecies.

Could they? Sure. If BT can, any Chapter can.

Should they? Probably not. Again, looking at what happened to BT, they'd become Grey Smurfs to fight alongside all the Blue and (now) Black Smurfs.

If GW had shown the ability to roll divergent and/or flavourful Chapters into C:SM without losing any of said character or flavour, then people would be more inclined to support rolling more in. As it stands, however, I can totally understand people's fears when it comes to their coloured Space Marines of choice.

1] Wolf Guard: Would need a Page to put in their Special Rules [Wolf Guard Pack Leader] and the ability to take Terminator Armor.
2] Grey Hunters: Would require either their own Page or Special Rules Banning Heavy Weapons and a Sergeant. Then another set of rules allowing them to take MotW, Special Melee Weapon and a Plasma Pistol. Also Adding the Wolf Standard to their Wargear List. while doable this would make the Tactical Marine entry twice as long or adding another entry like the Crusaders.
3] Blood Claws: Would require either their own Page or Special Rules Banning Sergeants and Changing two of their Attributes. This alone should require a separate page for them. It would also require a separate entry in the army list.
4] Wolf Scouts: Taking away the Sergeant and adding 2 Special Ranged or Melee Weapons. Adding some more additions to the Heavy Weapons Choice and adding MotW. The changes in Attributes, FOC and How their outflank works.
5] Swiftclaws: See Blood Claws
6] Skyclaws: See Blood Claws and adding MotW.
7] TWC: Own Page, no other way to do it.
8] Fenrisian Wolves: See TWC
9] Lone Wolves: See TWC
10] Long Fangs: Adding one more to the number of Heavy Weapons and removing the other members of the Pack. The Sergeant Getting Accesses to Ranged Special Weapons.
11] Rune Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
12] Wolf Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
13] Iron Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
14] Wolf Lord: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
15] Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

In summary, your list of 17 "unique" units is actually a list of 4 unique units, of which one is dubious at best IMO.

Man you sure are buttflustered that your Templars got rolled in. 4 unique units is still more than the Black Templars ever had. "TWC could be represented by bikes"

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

In summary, your list of 17 "unique" units is actually a list of 4 unique units, of which one is dubious at best IMO.

Man you sure are buttflustered that your Templars got rolled in. 4 unique units is still more than the Black Templars ever had. "TWC could be represented by bikes"

They could, though. T5 marines that move faster than other Marines. Sounds like Bikes to me.

And yes, 4 unique units are still more than BT had. I don't think Space Wolves ought to be rolled into the Vanilla Codex anyway, but not because they're so incredibly different than Vanilla Marines (see GK for what that looks like), but because I've seen that GW aren't competent enough to do it, which was the reason I gave for being anti-folding of the BT too before that even happened.

Keep up not responding to my points though, I'm sure that's a great way to win arguments.

11] Rune Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
12] Wolf Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
13] Iron Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
14] Wolf Lord: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
15] Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.

I'm going to have to call you out on these. They are still basically the Librarian, Chaplain, Tech Priest, etc. A few minor variations isn't surprising. It's just what codices do to differentiate themselves but even then. It's sjust a few wargear choices and then some saga chart.

The rest I concur although I almost would like to see the Fenresian wolves and TWC combined.


I'm simply arguing a point. Personal opinion, if GW knew how to merge codices or their supplements weren't so expensive and so just not worth it, I would say yeah! Roll them in! Buuuuuut GW is idiotic and ruined BT (that had almost nothing to differentiate them to begin with), releases supplements for companies, and is about to release a supplement for some no-name recent warband of renegades that has almost no fluff despite chaos constantly complaining about getting supplements to either represent the legions (+ Corsairs) or to represent the 4 gods.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

In summary, your list of 17 "unique" units is actually a list of 4 unique units, of which one is dubious at best IMO.

Man you sure are buttflustered that your Templars got rolled in. 4 unique units is still more than the Black Templars ever had. "TWC could be represented by bikes"

They could, though. T5 marines that move faster than other Marines. Sounds like Bikes to me.

And yes, 4 unique units are still more than BT had. I don't think Space Wolves ought to be rolled into the Vanilla Codex anyway, but not because they're so incredibly different than Vanilla Marines (see GK for what that looks like), but because I've seen that GW aren't competent enough to do it, which was the reason I gave for being anti-folding of the BT too before that even happened.

Keep up not responding to my points though, I'm sure that's a great way to win arguments.

Oooh, T5 2W BEAST Marines with 4 Attacks and Rending are bikes, sounds good m8. That doesn't sound like a bike at all. I have no reason to respond to your "points" because they're all emotionally driven and also because I don't think that Space Wolves should be rolled in.

 StarTrotter wrote:
11] Rune Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
12] Wolf Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
13] Iron Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
14] Wolf Lord: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
15] Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.

I'm going to have to call you out on these. They are still basically the Librarian, Chaplain, Tech Priest, etc. A few minor variations isn't surprising. It's just what codices do to differentiate themselves but even then. It's sjust a few wargear choices and then some saga chart.

The rest I concur although I almost would like to see the Fenresian wolves and TWC combined.


I'm simply arguing a point. Personal opinion, if GW knew how to merge codices or their supplements weren't so expensive and so just not worth it, I would say yeah! Roll them in! Buuuuuut GW is idiotic and ruined BT, releases supplements for companies, and is about to release a supplement for some no-name recent warband of renegades that has almost no fluff despite chaos constantly complaining about getting supplements to either represent the legions (+ Corsairs) or to represent the 4 gods.

Runic Armor
Wolf Tooth Necklace
Wolf Tail Talisman
Rune Priest: Chooser of Slain, Rune Staff
Iron Priest: TWC, Cyberwolves
Wolf Lord/Wolf Guard Battle Leader: TWC, Fenrisial Wolves, Belt of Rus, Wolf Claws, MotW

Give the SW their special characters, an entry for TWC (imo this was a ridiculous unit to begin with, but it's just like the Sanguinary Guard or Deathwing Knights, who only exist to justify the BA and DA having their own codexes. However it would be unfair to those who spent all that dough on the models to have to simply use them as bikes, considering they in no way should follow rules for bikes) and Lone Wolves, their own chapter tactics, the option to take a second spec weapon or a heavy weapon in tactical squads using chapter tactics SW. Stuff like Sagas and talsimans an can be ditched, only present in the background and no longer represented in gameplay, just like Holy Orbs and Vows .

In all honesty, all SM could be put into one codex (GK in a Codex Inquisition, as units available to armies with Order tactics:Malleus (one can dream)). The problem has really come about in the way that GW has made an effort to differentiate them, almost to the point where it will be irreversable, what with the wolf riding drunks or the shiny nipple men.

I even approve of BT being merged: my gripe is not that they were merged, but that with respect to fluff and chapter tactics is was done poorly.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

In summary, your list of 17 "unique" units is actually a list of 4 unique units, of which one is dubious at best IMO.

Man you sure are buttflustered that your Templars got rolled in. 4 unique units is still more than the Black Templars ever had. "TWC could be represented by bikes"

They could, though. T5 marines that move faster than other Marines. Sounds like Bikes to me.

And yes, 4 unique units are still more than BT had. I don't think Space Wolves ought to be rolled into the Vanilla Codex anyway, but not because they're so incredibly different than Vanilla Marines (see GK for what that looks like), but because I've seen that GW aren't competent enough to do it, which was the reason I gave for being anti-folding of the BT too before that even happened.

Keep up not responding to my points though, I'm sure that's a great way to win arguments.

Oooh, T5 2W BEAST Marines with 4 Attacks and Rending are bikes, sounds good m8. That doesn't sound like a bike at all. I have no reason to respond to your "points" because they're all emotionally driven and also because I don't think that Space Wolves should be rolled in.

If you're not going to debate my arguments, why are you here? To flamebait?

You'll note that I listed TWC as "maybe" in the list above. Further, rules change between editions, just because they're Beasts with 4A and Rending now doesn't mean they'd be so in the future.

 Anpu42 wrote:
1] Wolf Guard: Would need a Page to put in their Special Rules [Wolf Guard Pack Leader] and the ability to take Terminator Armor.
2] Grey Hunters: Would require either their own Page or Special Rules Banning Heavy Weapons and a Sergeant. Then another set of rules allowing them to take MotW, Special Melee Weapon and a Plasma Pistol. Also Adding the Wolf Standard to their Wargear List. while doable this would make the Tactical Marine entry twice as long or adding another entry like the Crusaders.
3] Blood Claws: Would require either their own Page or Special Rules Banning Sergeants and Changing two of their Attributes. This alone should require a separate page for them. It would also require a separate entry in the army list.
4] Wolf Scouts: Taking away the Sergeant and adding 2 Special Ranged or Melee Weapons. Adding some more additions to the Heavy Weapons Choice and adding MotW. The changes in Attributes, FOC and How their outflank works.
5] Swiftclaws: See Blood Claws
6] Skyclaws: See Blood Claws and adding MotW.
7] TWC: Own Page, no other way to do it.
8] Fenrisian Wolves: See TWC
9] Lone Wolves: See TWC
10] Long Fangs: Adding one more to the number of Heavy Weapons and removing the other members of the Pack. The Sergeant Getting Accesses to Ranged Special Weapons.
11] Rune Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
12] Wolf Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
13] Iron Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
14] Wolf Lord: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
15] Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.

assuming you KEEP everything...

if they wanted to roll it into the vanilla dex, you would lose most of the things that you list as separate... probably lose sagas in favor of a chapter tactics, those chapter tactics would probably have you lose the sargents, or just call the sargents wolf guard with an option to upgrade to termis or somethign...

look at the BT... find what they lost being rolled in... that's what would happen... they don't have to KEEP all the toys you have, so rolling them into the main dex woudn't take as much space as you think...

My #1 Issue is
Do You Relize How Much That Book Is Going To Cost?

If they do that we will also get Dark Angels and Blood Angles rolled in. Even if they managed to make it only 5 Pages per Army, that is 15 Pages and the Requirement for EVERY SPACE MARINE PLAYER TO BUY THIS BOOK, so to recover the loss of 3 other books will add another $20-$30 to the price.

In the way some people are reasoning here, we could roll all codices in C:SM because everything is just marines with different stats and different wargear.
Grey Hunters? Tac marines with different stats and wargear.
Grey Knights? Just marines with different stats and wargear.
Tau Fire Warriors? Tac Marines with different stats and wargear.
Really, that is no way to be reasoning. If it has a different name, different stats and different wargear, it is a unique unit, and not a C:SM unit with different stats and wargear.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
11] Rune Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
12] Wolf Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
13] Iron Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
14] Wolf Lord: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
15] Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.

I'm going to have to call you out on these. They are still basically the Librarian, Chaplain, Tech Priest, etc. A few minor variations isn't surprising. It's just what codices do to differentiate themselves but even then. It's sjust a few wargear choices and then some saga chart.

The rest I concur although I almost would like to see the Fenresian wolves and TWC combined.


I'm simply arguing a point. Personal opinion, if GW knew how to merge codices or their supplements weren't so expensive and so just not worth it, I would say yeah! Roll them in! Buuuuuut GW is idiotic and ruined BT, releases supplements for companies, and is about to release a supplement for some no-name recent warband of renegades that has almost no fluff despite chaos constantly complaining about getting supplements to either represent the legions (+ Corsairs) or to represent the 4 gods.

Runic Armor
Wolf Tooth Necklace
Wolf Tail Talisman
Rune Priest: Chooser of Slain, Rune Staff
Iron Priest: TWC, Cyberwolves
Wolf Lord/Wolf Guard Battle Leader: TWC, Fenrisial Wolves, Belt of Rus, Wolf Claws, MotW

First of all, this implies you get to keep everything. Even in my optimal beliefs if GW was perfect, SW would lose a few excess details. To be honest I have no clue what runic armor does. Left my codices at home The 5+ invuln from the talisman is just a 5+ deny the witch that many armies basically get anyways, the neclace is a bit unique always hitting on a 3+ although a really minor factor. Rune Staff is likely going to become a very standard staff soon, no clue about the chooser of slain, iron priests twc and wolves are very reminescent of biker option, etc. These are etc items that honestly every founding chapter should have access to.

In terms of pricing, yet again, it really depends. In terms of GW, adding 3 more armies really isn't that drastic of a thing. Heck, Chaos already has to deal with being one codex and always has been. Admittedly, GW will buff the price but they love to price gouge anyways. I'm against it simply because GW WILL ruin it and mess up.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
In the way some people are reasoning here, we could roll all codices in C:SM because everything is just marines with different stats and different wargear.
Grey Hunters? Tac marines with different stats and wargear.
Grey Knights? Just marines with different stats and wargear.
Tau Fire Warriors? Tac Marines with different stats and wargear.
Really, that is no way to be reasoning. If it has a different name, different stats and different wargear, it is a unique unit, and not a C:SM unit with different stats and wargear.

Actually, Grey Hunters are exactly like Tac Marines with a Chapter Tactics worth of extra special rules (Counter-Attack and Acute Senses) and a bonus CCW that could be a Tac Squad option CSM style.

I am very much opposed to rolling any marine variant codices into the main book for one reason: The way Games Workshop prices supplements.

Basically, Games Workshop charges Codex prices for their supplements. This would mean that a Codex+Supplement system would charge Space Wolf players double for the same amount of book. In addition, the poor wolf players would be paying for a lot of crap they don't even use.

In other words, Codex: Space Wolves is basically a supplement to Codex: Space Marines. Its just that you dont have to pay for the other book.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I am very much opposed to rolling any marine variant codices into the main book for one reason: The way Games Workshop prices supplements.

Basically, Games Workshop charges Codex prices for their supplements. This would mean that a Codex+Supplement system would charge Space Wolf players double for the same amount of book. In addition, the poor wolf players would be paying for a lot of crap they don't even use.

In other words, Codex: Space Wolves is basically a supplement to Codex: Space Marines. Its just that you dont have to pay for the other book.

Basically this

 StarTrotter wrote:
In terms of pricing, yet again, it really depends. In terms of GW, adding 3 more armies really isn't that drastic of a thing. Heck, Chaos already has to deal with being one codex and always has been. Admittedly, GW will buff the price but they love to price gouge anyways. I'm against it simply because GW WILL ruin it and mess up.

That and yes it would Ruin the Space Wolves like the Black Templar Players say.

If the Ultramarines are the poster-boys for what it means to be a Codex-Adherent Space Marine, then only Chapters that are similar to them (to a greater or lesser extent) should go into C:SM. If you are the opposites of the UM, you should not.

 Psienesis wrote:
If the Ultramarines are the poster-boys for what it means to be a Codex-Adherent Space Marine, then only Chapters that are similar to them (to a greater or lesser extent) should go into C:SM. If you are the opposites of the UM, you should not.

So...everyone but SW then?

That's pretty much telling everyone but SW they should go back in but you get to keep your unique book 'because'.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If the Ultramarines are the poster-boys for what it means to be a Codex-Adherent Space Marine, then only Chapters that are similar to them (to a greater or lesser extent) should go into C:SM. If you are the opposites of the UM, you should not.

So...everyone but SW then?

And Templars, but the cat's out of the bag for that one.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
In the way some people are reasoning here, we could roll all codices in C:SM because everything is just marines with different stats and different wargear.
Grey Hunters? Tac marines with different stats and wargear.
Grey Knights? Just marines with different stats and wargear.
Tau Fire Warriors? Tac Marines with different stats and wargear.
Really, that is no way to be reasoning. If it has a different name, different stats and different wargear, it is a unique unit, and not a C:SM unit with different stats and wargear.

If any of sm codex that is outside of codex:SM gets rolled into codex SM, they will lose a lot of the flavor... do a lot of the people who don't ply the codex (SW, BA, DA) care? no, a marine is a marine to them... just like it matters who is imperial and who isn't...

armies are armies, the ones that have their own codex, more power to em, I hope hey get to keep em, and i hope there are more in time.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If the Ultramarines are the poster-boys for what it means to be a Codex-Adherent Space Marine, then only Chapters that are similar to them (to a greater or lesser extent) should go into C:SM. If you are the opposites of the UM, you should not.

So...everyone but SW then?

That's pretty much telling everyone but SW they should go back in but you get to keep your unique book 'because'.

BT should never have been rolled in and there should never be any thought of rolling in BA or DA either

Yes.

As per BA, much of the allegedly 'irreconcilably different' units are once more just slight variations of existing units. People also mistake having a slew of slightly different units with different names as being 'unique' or having different playstyle, when in reality, the unit choices you make in army selection and your paint job/modelling will have a far greater impact in having a unique looking and playing army that matches the theme.

Loyalist marines in one book, traitors in another with fleshed out legion rules.

Now, of course it won't happen because GW enjoys money.

 Blacksails wrote:


Now, of course it won't happen because GW enjoys money.

who doesn't?

Brother Weasel wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:


Now, of course it won't happen because GW enjoys money.

who doesn't?

Yeah, and really, how easy is it to copy paste most of the units from one book and wargear options to another, add wolf to a bunch of the names, and charge people $60+ to play an entirely different and unique codex like every other marine chapter.

Really, its like printing money.

so it's settled, GW won't roll them in, because there is no reason for them to do so.

Brother Weasel wrote:
so it's settled, GW won't roll them in, because there is no reason for them to do so.

Well yeah, but this thread is hypothetical, and isn't concerned with what GW would do to pad its bottom line. Its a discussion from a gameplay/mechanical perspective.

If variant Marine Codices is effectively a license to print money, why did GW fold C:BT? It doesn't seem to hold up.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If variant Marine Codices is effectively a license to print money, why did GW fold C:BT? It doesn't seem to hold up.

Eh, could have something to do with less dedicated models, or maybe a lack of a desire to make more specific BT only models.

GW confuses me too.

Yeah, if anything they should have released a whole new codex with made up units to make people buy more models.

Codex Salamanders! Mark of the Dragon. Special models riding dragons and salamanders!

The reason Templars where rolled, was the things that made them unique when the codex was printed, where given to nearly everyone.

Sure wolves can be rolled in, but I think it would be better to have them on their own. Plus the price for the "Codex: All the Space Marines" would be ridiculous as Anpu42 said

 Blacksails wrote:

Brother Weasel wrote:
so it's settled, GW won't roll them in, because there is no reason for them to do so.

Well yeah, but this thread is hypothetical, and isn't concerned with what GW would do to pad its bottom line. Its a discussion from a gameplay/mechanical perspective.

Oh yea...

simply put if you keep every unit as is diffrent, adding those to the SM dex will cause the main codex to be cluttered with foot notes and options and restrictions...

that or they remove the things that make them diffrent, in which case the argument isn't that sw (ba) should be rolled, but pretty much eliminated in all but color.

 FirePainter wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
1] Wolf Guard Veteran +1
2] Grey Hunters Tactical marines +1
3] Blood claws assault marines (more numbers less skill) 0
4] Swift Claws bikers -1
5] Wolf Scouts scouts +1 (DA used to have this as well but without the weapon selection)
6] Swiftclaws Repeat
7] Skyclaws assault marines -1
8] TWC bikers +1
9] Fenresian Wolves Unique
10] Lone Wolves unique version of veterans
11] Long Fangs Devs +1
12] Rune Priest Librarian +1
13] Wolf Priest are these even used?
14] Iron Priest tech marine (again are these even used?)
15] Wolf Lord captain +1
16] Wolf Guard Battle Leader Sergeant +1
17] Space Wolf Contemptnor Dread [IA] don't all chapters have these?

So I would give you 2 truely unique units and a bunch of vanilla marines +1

I don't have a dog in this hunt. I prefer more variation than less. I like the Space Wolves having their own codex.

However, if I am being completely objective here, Fire Painter is spot on.

They'd be turbo easy, again, a couple pages of rules could manage them. Hell that's exactly what they did in 3E.

They've got exactly 2 truly unique units, the Wolf cavalry and fenrisian wolves, everything else is wargear/USR differences.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If the Ultramarines are the poster-boys for what it means to be a Codex-Adherent Space Marine, then only Chapters that are similar to them (to a greater or lesser extent) should go into C:SM. If you are the opposites of the UM, you should not.

So...everyone but SW then?

That's pretty much telling everyone but SW they should go back in but you get to keep your unique book 'because'.

There are lots of Chapters currently appearing in their own Codices that are not Codex-adherent. There should be 2 books: Codex Adherent and Not.

I don't think these SW players realise that it would be as easy if not easier into C:SM. A lot of their stuff is just renamed and moved around (see things like swiftclaws or scouts). Alot of the things theyare debating couldnt be rolled in are just marines+1 I.e. wolf guard are just terminator squads and veterans rolled into one. As for being able to join other squads like a pseudo sergeant, just give the sergeant of a marine squad acces to more wargear with the SW CT. Long Fangs? Basically Devs with split fire. Rune Priest? A libby with fancy wargear. I think the Belt of Russ was mentioned as fancy wargear? Its just a iron halo renamed. As for Sagas they can be dropped like vows for BT to avoid more cramming. The only real unique things are TWC and Fenrisian Wolves if special characters aren't included.

One of the main arguments (aside from the super special, irreplaceable units everywhere) is that even if they were rolled in, it would take dozens and dozens of pages which would make the book too big.

Then again, I don't see a reason they need any more fluff in a combined codex than any of the other 1st founding legions. Maybe I'm just heartless, but the codex doesn't need to cover every single battle and the deeds of every single member in great detail.

Once more, plenty of other well established chapters function just fine in C:SM, and I see no reason why SW (or DA, or BA) wouldn't work just fine as well.

They could be rolled in to the Space Marines, it doesn't really make sense though. I don't want them to be rolled in to a single book though, to keep their current feel they'd have far too many exceptions and end up taking a large chunk of the codex just to explain all the exceptions and special rules.

I also don't like an exception based system. I don't want "grey hunters are blah except" "wolf guard are blah except" "wolf priests are blah except". I'd rather just have unit entries for the different units instead.

Honestly, all armies could be rolled in to a single big book. At this stage most codices are just copy/paste jobs of previous codices with a bit of new content. I think you could explain all the rules for all armies in ~100 pages.

 A GumyBear wrote:
I don't think these SW players realise that it would be as easy if not easier into C:SM. A lot of their stuff is just renamed and moved around (see things like swiftclaws or scouts). Alot of the things theyare debating couldnt be rolled in are just marines+1 I.e. wolf guard are just terminator squads and veterans rolled into one. As for being able to join other squads like a pseudo sergeant, just give the sergeant of a marine squad acces to more wargear with the SW CT. Long Fangs? Basically Devs with split fire. Rune Priest? A libby with fancy wargear. I think the Belt of Russ was mentioned as fancy wargear? Its just a iron halo renamed. As for Sagas they can be dropped like vows for BT to avoid more cramming. The only real unique things are TWC and Fenrisian Wolves if special characters aren't included.

Let's just go over the things you mentioned...
Scouts are completely different. Aside from the fluff differences, or scouts have different stats, wargear options, and points cost. Swiftclaws (And, really, anything with -claws in the name) also have completely different points costs, unit sizes (You can't take Assault Marines in 15 man squads), and stats.
Wolf Guard and your Veterans solution is terrible. Wolf Guard aren't 'Just Terminators and Veterans rolled into one.' They can take gear that neither Veterans nor Terminators can take, have different points costs, a minimum squad size of three instead of 5, they can take Drop Pods, they *can't* deep strike in Terminator Armor, etc. As for just giving the sergeant more wargear options... Would you give EVERY Veteran the ability to take CMLs, or completely get rid of that? Same with Assault Cannons. Not to mention, when you buy a Wolf Guard to attach to a squad currently, it changes the Grey Hunter's squad composition. They can't get their second Special Weapon and a Transport if they want a Veteran.
Long Fangs are exactly like Devestators! Except for Split Fire, squad sizes, their Captain's wargear options, the amount of Heavy Weapons that they can take, the cost of their Heavy Weapons, and the fact that they can't take additional bodies. Other than that, completely identical! (Yes, that was sarcasm.)
Rune Priests are not 'Libbys with fancy wargear.' They have different psychic powers, access to different charts, different stats, and different wargear. Oh, and different fluff, but that applies to all of the SW units.
(The Belt of Russ is pretty much an Iron Halo, I'll give you that.)


Let's be honest. If you want the Space Wolf codex to be incorporated into the Space Marine codex, you really just don't like Space Wolves and want to stick it to them. Merging them with the Space Marine codex is the next closest thing to completely and utterly getting rid of them. (Unless the Space Marine codex had a good twenty or thirty pages (Minimum) dedicated to explaining the differences and rules for Space Wolves.) So many unique things would be dropped, they would for all intents and purposes cease to exist.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
They could be rolled in to the Space Marines, it doesn't really make sense though. I don't want them to be rolled in to a single book though, to keep their current feel they'd have far too many exceptions and end up taking a large chunk of the codex just to explain all the exceptions and special rules.

That's the thing though, they don't need all those exceptions and special rules. You could build a perfectly thematic Space Wolves army using C:SM by using appropriate units, modelling and painting them like Space Wolves, and calling them by their fluff names if you so desire.

You don't need a hundred minute different to have a special marine chapter. A CT, a few SCs and maybe a unique unit is all you've ever needed to capture a chapter. The rest comes down to list construction and painting/modelling.

But those differences make up the SW... you could just have one rulebook and have every army be the same minus the minis...

exaggerating yes, but the SW have differences to the SM, why not let them stay different?

Waaaghpower wrote:


Let's be honest. If you want the Space Wolf codex to be incorporated into the Space Marine codex, you really just don't like Space Wolves and want to stick it to them. Merging them with the Space Marine codex is the next closest thing to completely and utterly getting rid of them. (Unless the Space Marine codex had a good twenty or thirty pages (Minimum) dedicated to explaining the differences and rules for Space Wolves.) So many unique things would be dropped, they would for all intents and purposes cease to exist.

No, that's not it all. I don't have a thing against Space Wolves (besides the absurd wolf names everywhere), it just never made sense to me to have an entirely separate codex for an army that was functionally the same as several others, just with minor rule changes, name changes, and better point costing.

You don't need things like Frost weapons, or skyclaws, or Iron priests listed out exactly. They all have nearly indentical entries in the vanilla book, you'd just have to model them more wolfy.

The bigger part of capturing an armies 'theme' or 'feel' isn't in the minute rules. Its in the list creation, and visual appearance. A sea of grey marines called 'Space Wolves' looks no different than a sea of grey marines called 'Blood Angels'. But a painted Imperial Fist army looks incredibly different (and plays differently based on unit selection) than a painted Salamanders, using the same codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Weasel wrote:
But those differences make up the SW... you could just have one rulebook and have every army be the same minus the minis...

exaggerating yes, but the SW have differences to the SM, why not let them stay different?

They have very minor differences. I'm fine letting them stay the way they are, and I realize that's the way its going to be, but in a thread asking me why I think the way I do, I'll gladly tell you that I think there's no reason for SW to be separate.

 Blacksails wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
They could be rolled in to the Space Marines, it doesn't really make sense though. I don't want them to be rolled in to a single book though, to keep their current feel they'd have far too many exceptions and end up taking a large chunk of the codex just to explain all the exceptions and special rules.

That's the thing though, they don't need all those exceptions and special rules. You could build a perfectly thematic Space Wolves army using C:SM by using appropriate units, modelling and painting them like Space Wolves, and calling them by their fluff names if you so desire.

You don't need a hundred minute different to have a special marine chapter. A CT, a few SCs and maybe a unique unit is all you've ever needed to capture a chapter. The rest comes down to list construction and painting/modelling.

"Could", but that's not really what I want.

40k needs to have the fat trimmed, rolling codices in to one is not where that fat needs to be trimmed though, at least IMO.

Like I said, you could have ALL the rules for ALL armies rolled in to a single book. The way GW writes it's codices is moronic from a rules perspective... they have a fluff section, a section with fluff and some rules, a section with special rules, a section with equipment rules and some more special rules, a picture section with more fluff, another section which restates all the rules and assigns point values and options. If they actually wrote them in a half decent way, the rules for most armies could be reduced to 10 pages or less and compiled in to one big arse book.

BUT, given we don't have that, we have long convoluted codices with fluff and pictures and rules spread out needlessly thin, I'm happy with different chapters having their own codices and different craftworlds having their own codices and all that.

I just wish the damned things were cheaper so I could actually collect the different codices instead of just buying the ones I need.

 Blacksails wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:


Let's be honest. If you want the Space Wolf codex to be incorporated into the Space Marine codex, you really just don't like Space Wolves and want to stick it to them. Merging them with the Space Marine codex is the next closest thing to completely and utterly getting rid of them. (Unless the Space Marine codex had a good twenty or thirty pages (Minimum) dedicated to explaining the differences and rules for Space Wolves.) So many unique things would be dropped, they would for all intents and purposes cease to exist.

No, that's not it all. I don't have a thing against Space Wolves (besides the absurd wolf names everywhere), it just never made sense to me to have an entirely separate codex for an army that was functionally the same as several others, just with minor rule changes, name changes, and better point costing.

You don't need things like Frost weapons, or skyclaws, or Iron priests listed out exactly. They all have nearly indentical entries in the vanilla book, you'd just have to model them more wolfy.

The bigger part of capturing an armies 'theme' or 'feel' isn't in the minute rules. Its in the list creation, and visual appearance. A sea of grey marines called 'Space Wolves' looks no different than a sea of grey marines called 'Blood Angels'. But a painted Imperial Fist army looks incredibly different (and plays differently based on unit selection) than a painted Salamanders, using the same codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Weasel wrote:
But those differences make up the SW... you could just have one rulebook and have every army be the same minus the minis...

exaggerating yes, but the SW have differences to the SM, why not let them stay different?

They have very minor differences. I'm fine letting them stay the way they are, and I realize that's the way its going to be, but in a thread asking me why I think the way I do, I'll gladly tell you that I think there's no reason for SW to be separate.

I can appritiate the line of thought.

I don't agree in general. I see enough differences in the non codex:sm marines to fill the codex. I see that you could limit them back to being pretty much grey space marines. I think there is enough other stuff (mostly made up for the last dex, probably to try and warrent them (and BA) having thier own codex.

I'll be interested in what both the BA and SW codex actualy does... will it make them farther divergent from SM? keep them where they are now? bring them closer to the sm?

Why not incorporate the Chaos marine codex too!

 Blacksails wrote:

No, that's not it all. I don't have a thing against Space Wolves (besides the absurd wolf names everywhere), it just never made sense to me to have an entirely separate codex for an army that was functionally the same as several others, just with minor rule changes, name changes, and better point costing.
They have very minor differences. I'm fine letting them stay the way they are, and I realize that's the way its going to be, but in a thread asking me why I think the way I do, I'll gladly tell you that I think there's no reason for SW to be separate.

Wrong, I have tried to make Space Wolves using Codex: Space Marines, back in third, 4th and 5th.

Yes you can put the models together, but they just become Grey Space Marines.
They don’t feel the same, work the same or even behave the same. nothing about them become Space Wolves, even taking the new one, nothing would feel right.

I won't individually quote all the responses, so I'll just respond in summary.

@AllSeeingSkink
It may not be what you want, but what I want is pretty much not at all likely. My argument doesn't rest on what I, or other people want, its based around a gameplay/mechanical perspective. Granted, part of that is my own idea of how the game should work, and part of that is not having several dozen codices each trying to represent every single sub faction from every core race.

It'd be nice in a perfect world to have a separate codex for each craftworld, clan, kabal, chapter, warband, tomb world, and hive fleet (and others), but it'd be so overwhelming ridiculous to balance, update and general keep track of, that it would too burdensome to implement. To that end, I see no reason why a properly done C:SM with added options couldn't represent every single marine chapter just as the current Eldar book can be used to represent every craftworld, or how Imperial Guard can be used to represent every single regiment (who are far more diverse and varied anyways).

I do agree that the codex system is archaic anyways, and a much better, cleaner solution could be used. I also agree that much of the game's fat could be trimmed, but I disagree that the Wolves would be exempt. If anything, that's exactly the kind of redundant bloat that would be first to go.

And yes, I wish they were cheaper too. I believe very firmly a rules only downloadable 'codex' should be free, and a nice book with fluff would be worth ~$30. But that's a different subject for another topic.

@Brother Weasel
I'm glad you can understand my point of view, regardless of whether you agree or not. Its the start of a healthy discussion.

I'm fairly certain any new editions of marine books will add increasingly more divergent units to make them seem more unique, like the Nephilim Jetfighter and variant for DA. There's no real rhyme or reason rules wise to have them distinct, when that unit could very well be made available to every marine player, increasing overall unit diversity and availability for everyone. It also helps justify the distinct codex, but I still see no reason they couldn't just be given to a grand book of power armour.

However, I'm totally open to three books for marines as Psienesis posted earlier; codex adherent loyalist, non-codex adherent loyalist, and a proper chaos marine book with legion rules and better renegade representative.

@Anpu24
I'm not wrong, I could put together a marine army using C:SM, paint them space wolf grey with wolf stuff everywhere, and feel exactly like I'm playing Space Wolves. I do it every time I play my Mordian IG, and I'm sure everyone does the same thing when they play a DIY chapter, or a successor chapter, or really any faction that doesn't have a distinct book.

The presence of a unit called 'Sky Claws', or 'Blood Claws' isn't what makes Space Wolves unique. Nor is it the difference between Rune Priests and Librarians, or how frost weapons are just better power weapons. The feel of a marine chapter isn't dependent on a dozen special rules, characters and units. Ask any marine player who uses vanilla marines to represent a myriad of different chapters, some more divergent than others. Most chapters only need a CT, an SC or two, and maybe a unique unit. The other factors are far more important than having an exact stat line for thunderwolf cavalry. They could easily be different models for basic marine bikers (size issues aside, but that's because of their rules), likewise Long Fangs are fundamentally no different than Devastators.

I also understand that you'd be very protective in a discussion like this, seeing as they're your army, and given your inclinations in your signature block, I know I won't be able to sway you. While I know I'm not right, neither am I wrong, and I do accept that it'll stay the way it is. Really though, it'll take a lot to convince me that Wolves need a distinct codex to play like the fluff.

Here's another thing: The reason I chose to play Space Wolves over all the other codex options wasn't the fluff, it was the rules. (I like the Space Wolf fluff, but I use my own paint scheme and homebrew fluff anyways.) Not because they were any stronger than Marines, (I firmly stand with my opinion that Space Wolves are no more powerful than vanilla Marines), but because I preferred how their rules worked, how their units were organized, and how uniquely they functioned. A Space Wolf army might look similar to vanilla at first glance, but they are VERY VERY different in terms of actual gameplay. If you actually play with Space Wolves, you realize that. Space Wolves and Space Marines are only as similar as, say, Dark Eldar and Eldar, if not less so. The way they play is far more dissimilar than Dark Angels, (I can't speak for BA since I don't play with or against them very often).

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Why not incorporate the Chaos marine codex too!

I can't complain. We would actually have legion tactics and they shall know no gear

I think it depends on how broad a definition of rolled in you go with.

That being said, I do think GW should have put out SM as the first book of the edition, then developed BA, BT, DA, GK and SW as supplements to that book rather than placing them in that book itself.

 Blacksails wrote:
Ask any marine player who uses vanilla marines to represent a myriad of different chapters, some more divergent than others. Most chapters only need a CT, an SC or two, and maybe a unique unit. The other factors are far more important than having an exact stat line for thunderwolf cavalry. They could easily be different models for basic marine bikers (size issues aside, but that's because of their rules), likewise Long Fangs are fundamentally no different than Devastators.

One issue with this though is that SW, BA and BT are much more melee-centric than Vanilla Marines. As evidenced by the folding of BT into the Vanilla Codex, a few special rules don't turn a shooting army into a melee army.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


One issue with this though is that SW, BA and BT are much more melee-centric than Vanilla Marines. As evidenced by the folding of BT into the Vanilla Codex, a few special rules don't turn a shooting army into a melee army.

Sure, and so are several dozen successor chapters. I'm speaking purely in hypotheticals, but I'm also working under the assumption this Big Book of Marine would have a semblance of balance, which would allow equal parts shooting and assaulting.

But again, 6th isn't really helping the issue as an edition. Such is 40k at the moment, unfortunately. Trust me, I miss my old power blobs for IG.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Ask any marine player who uses vanilla marines to represent a myriad of different chapters, some more divergent than others. Most chapters only need a CT, an SC or two, and maybe a unique unit. The other factors are far more important than having an exact stat line for thunderwolf cavalry. They could easily be different models for basic marine bikers (size issues aside, but that's because of their rules), likewise Long Fangs are fundamentally no different than Devastators.

One issue with this though is that SW, BA and BT are much more melee-centric than Vanilla Marines. As evidenced by the folding of BT into the Vanilla Codex, a few special rules don't turn a shooting army into a melee army.

My friend still tries to fight the way of the power blob. It hurts to watch sometimes ;-;

It would be inefficient to put them all in one book like that. the cost will just be stupid. The current codex is almost fine as is. If they make another it just needs access to Flakk missiles and Storm Ravens.

So what you're saying is...its inefficient to trim out the redundancy of the Wolves and put them in the same book with everyone else...but efficient to make a separate book with all the redundancy reprinted?

Kay.

Omicron-Fenrir wrote:
It would be inefficient to put them all in one book like that. the cost will just be stupid. The current codex is almost fine as is. If they make another it just needs access to Flakk missiles and Storm Ravens.

Why get Storm Ravens for a chapter that does not fly ... They have a fear of technology, that is why the Termies can not teleport. Flakk missle I will go with, but they should not get any fliers.

They should be "rolled in" through a Supplement. The whole concept of Supplements seems like it was purely intended to work with Space Marines. They just need to learn how to make Supplements that are actually worth a damn instead of "here's a special rule, a bit of fluff you already knew, and a Chapter Relic. That'll be £30 please".

EDIT: Oh, and a Warlord Trait. Let's not forget those, the most important elements of the game! Hooray for random tables!

SW should definitely have their own Codex. There's just too much background information from the HH era that would be lost and too much attention given to the UM to properly give the other First Foundings their day in the sun. Too many of them are already relegated to the sidelines.

Not to mention that the original SW Codex predates the Ultramarines one, so tradition alone would suffice as a reason for the Wolves to have their own Codex.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

Omicron-Fenrir wrote:
It would be inefficient to put them all in one book like that. the cost will just be stupid. The current codex is almost fine as is. If they make another it just needs access to Flakk missiles and Storm Ravens.

Why get Storm Ravens for a chapter that does not fly ... They have a fear of technology, that is why the Termies can not teleport. Flakk missle I will go with, but they should not get any fliers.

They don't have a fear of flyers. They have their own fleet of spaceships and they have Thunderhawk Gunships just like every other chapter.

The only reason I'm looking into space wolves is the uniqueness of them.

If they just rolled them in with the space marines there would be no point to play them.

Exactly. A compilation of them all in one book would make a large book (even with condensing the armory) and although it would be doable (about the size of the BRB or less), the cost would be huge.

It would also require a "hold" on marine rules releases and such as it would require ALL of them to be updated and playtested and ready at the same time.

If they changed their minds. If they decided against it in the future, you would then have wasted your $ buying the huge book if they just released them again a year later in a seperate dex again. Thus making it a risky investment for he player.

Meh, fluffs be damned... just add a bunch of special rules at the back of the book and assign them to different chapters' units. Do as the IG codex would, let chapter HQs represent different chapter special rules and add chapter-specific combat doctrines and we will be done. Put those HQ units that has no particular plot significance into squad upgrades, or just remove then. People will just use them as normal sergeant or whatever.

But thinking about something doesn't seem to bring about the desired results, sign.

I feel I have beat this to death in the other thread but

In the way some people are reasoning here, we could roll all codices in C:SM because everything is just marines with different stats and different wargear.
Grey Hunters? Tac marines with different stats and wargear.
Grey Knights? Just marines with different stats and wargear.
Tau Fire Warriors? Tac Marines with different stats and wargear.
Really, that is no way to be reasoning. If it has a different name, different stats and different wargear, it is a unique unit, and not a C:SM unit with different stats and wargear.

But they don't have different stats. Virtually every tac marine squad is the same, 1 Wound, 8 Leadership, 3+ armor, 4s for everything else, Bolters, Grenades, and a Sergeant. There is no point in repeating this statline four times in four different books. Just give the Marines the rule "chapter tactics", which grants different benefits depending on chapter and suddenly you have identical entries for the different subfactions.

Your example of a Tau Fire Warrior is absurd, it shares exactly 1 stat with Tac mairnes (1 Wound), and no equipment, upgrades or special rules. It could not be condensed as described above.

Phanixis wrote:
But they don't have different stats. Virtually every tac marine squad is the same, 1 Wound, 8 Leadership, 3+ armor, 4s for everything else, Bolters, Grenades, and a Sergeant. There is no point in repeating this statline four times in four different books. Just give the Marines the rule "chapter tactics", which grants different benefits depending on chapter and suddenly you have identical entries for the different subfactions.

Grey Hunters have the same stats but different options. No combat squads or heavy weapons, even since their first codex in 2nd edition they haven't had the same options. They also have different base equipment.

Blood claws are -1Ws, -1Bs, they could be Assault Marines, but by default they are troops on foot, not Assault Marines, so you'd have to create another entry for them. Also the berserk charge/headstrong.

Wolf Scouts are different because the Chapter structure is different. You could make them the same as SM scouts, but you won't be making any SW players happy.

Long Fangs are +1Ld.

Fenrisian Wolves are a unique unit.

TWC are a unique unit. You could call them bikers but that would be stupid, they are cavalry.

Bikers and Assault marines would need -1 Ws and Bs, also berserk charge/headstrong.

Wolf Guard behave differently to the SM equivalents. You could make them the same, but you won't be making any SW players happy.

Space Wolves currently have 8 special characters all of which have models.

Could you fit all that in a Space Marine codex? Sure... but I think it's enough differences to warrant their own codex.

Could you simplify them to be regular Space Marines? Sure... but you'll not be making Space Wolf players happy, so it's hardly worth doing just to consolidate some rules IMO.

If SW have had their own Codex for the past 20 years, I might see the advantage of not splitting them off to have their own Codex. But they are already a unique codex and have been for a very long time.

Space Wolves are actually the army I'd least expect to be rolled into the SM book; Blood Angels have a stat change to their vehicles that could easily be made into a wargear upgrade and all of two specialist units that can be stuck onto the book just like Crusader Squads were, Dark Angels would just simulate Deathwing and Ravenwing through Chapter Tactics and add some wargear options to the Storm Talon and the Land Speeder (maybe with a unique Knight unit). Space Wolves are very differently organized, they share almost no units in terms of organization and weapon options with Codex Marines.

If you rolled SW, BA, and DA into the marine codex, this is what would take. Specifically, this is the bare minimum that would need to added.

2 pages of fluff for BA
2 pages of fluff for DA
2 pages of fluff for SW
3 pages of photos of the miniatures from each of these chapters
1 page for Dante
1 page for Mephiston
1 page for the sanguinor
1 page for Astorath
1 page for Tycho
1 page for Corbulo
1 page for the furioso dreadnought
1 page for the death company
1 page for Azrael
1 page for Ezekiel
1 page for Belial
1 page for Asmodai
1 page for Deathwing Terminators
1 page for Ravenwing bikes
1 page for Logan Grimnar
1 page for Njal
1 page for Canis
1 page for Ragnar
1 page for Ulrik
1 page for TWC
about 6 pages for the added unit profiles.

Added up, this 35 more pages. The price for adding 72 pages to the $8.50. So if a giant space marine codex actually came out, it would probably be around $62.50.

However, this is after deleting out a host of units that have models for them and removing some of the variety from 40k.

My personal opinion is that the more codices we have, the better. Variety is what makes this game fun, and any time you lose options is a bad thing.

I personally don't mind a lot of codices. I don't like having a lot of sources of rules that are digital only or the rules for a given army being spread over lots of locations.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
If you rolled SW, BA, and DA into the marine codex, this is what would take. Specifically, this is the bare minimum that would need to added.

2 pages of fluff for BA
2 pages of fluff for DA
2 pages of fluff for SW
3 pages of photos of the miniatures from each of these chapters
1 page for Dante
1 page for Mephiston
1 page for the sanguinor
1 page for Astorath
1 page for Tycho
1 page for Corbulo
1 page for the furioso dreadnought
1 page for the death company
1 page for Azrael
1 page for Ezekiel
1 page for Belial
1 page for Asmodai
1 page for Deathwing Terminators
1 page for Ravenwing bikes
1 page for Logan Grimnar
1 page for Njal
1 page for Canis
1 page for Ragnar
1 page for Ulrik
1 page for TWC
about 6 pages for the added unit profiles.

Added up, this 35 more pages. The price for adding 72 pages to the $8.50. So if a giant space marine codex actually came out, it would probably be around $62.50.

However, this is after deleting out a host of units that have models for them and removing some of the variety from 40k.

My personal opinion is that the more codices we have, the better. Variety is what makes this game fun, and any time you lose options is a bad thing.

Which is why it shouldn't be done that way.

Codex: SM covers generic marines.
Codex Expansion: Blood Angels - Blood Angels Fluff, Specific Characters, Specific rules, specific units and notes on which Codex: SM units are also in the BA army and what mods they would have.
Codex Expansion: Black Templars, Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Space Wolves could be done the same way.

I wouldn't mind Soace Wolves being considered a 'Suppliment' if they actually put some effort into the Supplement and kept each Wolf unit feeling unique. As opposed to the Raukanaan supplement, which was 'Here's six pieces of wargear, a new Walord Traits chart, and the ability to take far more Dreadnoughts and Techmarines than concievably useful. That'll be 35 Bucks.'
(I just recently looked through it. Really? Not even a special character or unique unit?)

Frozen Ocean wrote:They should be "rolled in" through a Supplement. The whole concept of Supplements seems like it was purely intended to work with Space Marines. They just need to learn how to make Supplements that are actually worth a damn instead of "here's a special rule, a bit of fluff you already knew, and a Chapter Relic. That'll be £30 please".

EDIT: Oh, and a Warlord Trait. Let's not forget those, the most important elements of the game! Hooray for random tables!

Waaaghpower wrote:I wouldn't mind Soace Wolves being considered a 'Suppliment' if they actually put some effort into the Supplement and kept each Wolf unit feeling unique. As opposed to the Raukanaan supplement, which was 'Here's six pieces of wargear, a new Walord Traits chart, and the ability to take far more Dreadnoughts and Techmarines than concievably useful. That'll be 35 Bucks.'
(I just recently looked through it. Really? Not even a special character or unique unit?)

Could have just hit "Quote".

Yeah, I'm thinking the term.Codex Expansion may be better than supplement for what we are after. The idea that it provides something that can't be played in the standard codex rather than just flavour and style tweaks to the codex is something that's somewhat tricky to get through.

I think something similar in size to the current supplements, but with that alternate missions section and such devoted to rules and units instead. Not quite as much rule material as a normal codex because 75% plus of that is already in the main Codex, but plent of detail on the army specific rules, characters, units and wargear.

Do it, roll em all. 1 maybe 2 special characters per 1st Founding that do the unlocks.

Make 'timeless' supplements that modify the basic statline and equiptment of codex units and add special rules from BRB (wanna change the rules next edition? Keep the names the same and all of your supplements are usable) for all those special snowflake companies.

Short answer:
No

Long answer:
NoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoo!

Waaaghpower wrote:
(I just recently looked through it. Really? Not even a special character or unique unit?)

Considering that all the 6th ed supplements have been that disappointing, why do we still get surprised by the fact that they're not worth buying?

Not a chance. When you compare them side by side, even after removing the units that are just "marine equivalent in disguise" like the SW libby and chaplain, BA and SW both still have a lot of unique things that would have to be addressed.

Also BA have more codex SC's just barely. 8.5 considering tycho has a "DC tycho" option, compared to the wolves' 8. In response to someone's counting error back on page 1.

Nitpicking aside, both would require mountains of footnotes and asterisks on each option due to special gear options or other rules. In the end, newer players would need a mini codex just to understand what the hell they can actually take from the codex, because it would be a jumbled horrifying mess.

So in the end, absolutely not.

Now if you were to make "space marines compilation codex" with everything organized correctly, each big chapter having its own section for unique rules and wargear and points, etc etc, and had a 300+ page book, then sure.

But in all honesty, I can't say I'd want to pay GW price for that book....it may be....commonly acquired...by other means if you catch my drift.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Also BA have more codex SC's just barely. 8.5 considering tycho has a "DC tycho" option, compared to the wolves' 8. In response to someone's counting error back on page 1.

To be fair, SCs disappear all the time. Wolves could lose Canis (and maybe Lukas) without anyone shedding a tear, and BA could lose Astorath, Gabriel Seth and especially Space Jesus without severely affecting anything... or they could just put their equipment in as relics to allow people to run Gabriel-Seth-in-all-but-name.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Also BA have more codex SC's just barely. 8.5 considering tycho has a "DC tycho" option, compared to the wolves' 8. In response to someone's counting error back on page 1.

To be fair, SCs disappear all the time. Wolves could lose Canis (and maybe Lukas) without anyone shedding a tear, and BA could lose Astorath, Gabriel Seth and especially Space Jesus without severely affecting anything... or they could just put their equipment in as relics to allow people to run Gabriel-Seth-in-all-but-name.

Name just one Special Character who's been lost in the past five years, who has an official GW model.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Also BA have more codex SC's just barely. 8.5 considering tycho has a "DC tycho" option, compared to the wolves' 8. In response to someone's counting error back on page 1.

To be fair, SCs disappear all the time. Wolves could lose Canis (and maybe Lukas) without anyone shedding a tear, and BA could lose Astorath, Gabriel Seth and especially Space Jesus without severely affecting anything... or they could just put their equipment in as relics to allow people to run Gabriel-Seth-in-all-but-name.

But muh Astorath red thirst army D:

Many of the players I've known love running seth. And Astorath WOULD be good if DC with jump packs didn't cost 8000 points per model. He still makes for a pretty cool battlefield-wide effect in normal jump squads, IE half are fearless/furious charge, plus the one Asto is in. It's an alternative to running jump priests. It could also work on infiltrating ccw/pistol scout armies.

Aside from seth, imo, they could use some help though, yeah. Or the trash can and allow people to make them a la carte with wargear and rules.

Space wolves third ed codex worked quite well as a stand alone wee book with all the unique space wolf stuff (leman Russ -back in the day, we had these! Grey hunters, blood claws, etc), but referenced, and was linked to the parent space marine codex for all the stuff they shared (rhinos, tanks, etc)

It worked quite well.

Does it make sense to roll them into the parent codex altogether? No, don't think so. But just like blood angels, I think they should use the sm codex as a 'parent codex' and run all the unique stuff in the sw booklet, like in third. Then again, In third, even with this format, a huge amount of the space wolf options, roster, equipment, weapons, special rule and characters were unique to them, and unlike the dark angels and to a slightly lesser extent the blood angels, a 'see codex space marine for unit x profile' was the exception, rather than the rule for the space wolves.

And to be fair, while a lot of sw stuff is a reimagining of options already there in codex sm, it's rebranded, and repackaged. Some things are just in completely different places. Wolf priests are chaplain/apothecary hybrids for example - I'd not like to see the mess it would take in terms of writing it into the sm codex to get that right- it's a real pain in the bum. I think the sw options are sufficiently different enough that it would just be too bloody awkward to try and write in a couple of lines of options in every relevant unit profile to turn generic sm options into sw options (you'd double the length of the unit profile section of the book, and make it a pain in the backside for everyone else, as well as clutter up the whole thing - no, better to have their own stuff in stand alone form, even just for the sheer bloody practicality of it.

I don't really see the point in making SW a supplement to C:SM. If you're going to the effort of making them their own book, you might as well just put all the rules in there you need, since the only carry over units will be tanks and land speeders.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Also BA have more codex SC's just barely. 8.5 considering tycho has a "DC tycho" option, compared to the wolves' 8. In response to someone's counting error back on page 1.

To be fair, SCs disappear all the time. Wolves could lose Canis (and maybe Lukas) without anyone shedding a tear, and BA could lose Astorath, Gabriel Seth and especially Space Jesus without severely affecting anything... or they could just put their equipment in as relics to allow people to run Gabriel-Seth-in-all-but-name.

Name just one Special Character who's been lost in the past five years, who has an official GW model.

Had to throw in that "official GW model" bit, cuz that covers the lost Tyranid characters. Plus more than 5 years out, BA lost Moriar the Chosen. Oh, and there's Doomrider too. The Red Terror was gone for 2 editions before being shoehorned into the newest Nid book (and being made useless I might add). So yeah, maybe not "all the time" special characters disappear, but it's not unprecedented. With the listed SCs I mentioned as expendable, the models can easily be used to represent other units anyway.

Grey Hunters have the same stats but different options. No combat squads or heavy weapons, even since their first codex in 2nd edition they haven't had the same options. They also have different base equipment.

Blood claws are -1Ws, -1Bs, they could be Assault Marines, but by default they are troops on foot, not Assault Marines, so you'd have to create another entry for them. Also the berserk charge/headstrong.

Wolf Scouts are different because the Chapter structure is different. You could make them the same as SM scouts, but you won't be making any SW players happy.

Long Fangs are +1Ld.

Fenrisian Wolves are a unique unit.

TWC are a unique unit. You could call them bikers but that would be stupid, they are cavalry.

Bikers and Assault marines would need -1 Ws and Bs, also berserk charge/headstrong.

Wolf Guard behave differently to the SM equivalents. You could make them the same, but you won't be making any SW players happy.

Space Wolves currently have 8 special characters all of which have models.

Could you fit all that in a Space Marine codex? Sure... but I think it's enough differences to warrant their own codex.

Could you simplify them to be regular Space Marines? Sure... but you'll not be making Space Wolf players happy, so it's hardly worth doing just to consolidate some rules IMO.

If SW have had their own Codex for the past 20 years, I might see the advantage of not splitting them off to have their own Codex. But they are already a unique codex and have been for a very long time.

This is admittedly a bit tricker than BA in that some units have actual statline modifications, and the wolves and wolf riders are actually separate models. The later probably need to be their own entry (rule of thumb, if it is a separate model, than a separate entry is justified, if it is just an existing model with rules modifications, then it can probably be reduced to an upgrade option). Still, much of this is doable: chapter structure modifications are just force org modifications, and those are already done in many codices. Special characters can be condensed down. Foot versus jet pack assault marines can be made into the same entry by just making the jetback and upgrade, and some modifications, like the Longfand Ld change, probably have minimal effect on how the unit plays.

If you rolled SW, BA, and DA into the marine codex, this is what would take. Specifically, this is the bare minimum that would need to added.

2 pages of fluff for BA
2 pages of fluff for DA
2 pages of fluff for SW
3 pages of photos of the miniatures from each of these chapters
1 page for Dante
1 page for Mephiston
1 page for the sanguinor
1 page for Astorath
1 page for Tycho
1 page for Corbulo
1 page for the furioso dreadnought
1 page for the death company
1 page for Azrael
1 page for Ezekiel
1 page for Belial
1 page for Asmodai
1 page for Deathwing Terminators
1 page for Ravenwing bikes
1 page for Logan Grimnar
1 page for Njal
1 page for Canis
1 page for Ragnar
1 page for Ulrik
1 page for TWC
about 6 pages for the added unit profiles.

Added up, this 35 more pages. The price for adding 72 pages to the $8.50. So if a giant space marine codex actually came out, it would probably be around $62.50.

I couple of observations here. For starters, you have 15 pages of special characters. This is making up nearly half your page count. My opinion on a lot of these special characters is that they exist to justify the existing of the specialist codices, rather than being something that is truly needed for the subfactions. Even if we do insist every special character must be retained, it is quite possible to fit 4 of them to a page (and probably do the same with some C:SM special characters to make more room), as is done with The Eight in the Farsight supplement. Pick 1-2 of these character from each chapter to be an iconic character with a full page devoted to it, and then condensed or eliminate the rest.

Unit like Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing Bikes can are just modifications to Terminators and Bikes respectively, and can be condensed into those entries.

You also have 3 pages of painting per faction and 2 of fluff per faction. 3 pages devoted to each faction seems like a lot, from what I can recall subfactions in other army books only get a page, maybe two, devoted to painting. Similarly, fluff could probably be reduced to a page each.

You could probably reduce the page count as follows: 5 pages to special characters (3 full pages entries, 3 pages of condensed entries), 3 pages to fluff, 5 pages to painting(give each faction a page and a half), condense the furioso dread, death company, terminators and bikes, which might add a single page, and add 4 pages for unique unit entries (wolves, wolf riders, the DA flyer, the oversized DA speeder), and one more for condensing other unit options that weren't mentioned. That brings us up to 19. Pull the character condensing trick on some C:SM special characters, say at least 4 of them, which will save us three pages, and the page count is now down to a modest 16 (with the front and the back of the page being counted as two separate pages, thus only 8 additional sheet of paper). This seems reasonable and doable.

All the Space Wolf special characters have models. These models all cost a fair bit more than their generic counterparts. I own most of them.
If all of my expensive IC models were axed down to a one-line blurb or removed entirely, I would be mad as hell.

Waaaghpower wrote:
All the Space Wolf special characters have models. These models all cost a fair bit more than their generic counterparts. I own most of them.
If all of my expensive IC models were axed down to a one-line blurb or removed entirely, I would be mad as hell.

I have similar thought with my BA.

niv-mizzet wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
All the Space Wolf special characters have models. These models all cost a fair bit more than their generic counterparts. I own most of them.
If all of my expensive IC models were axed down to a one-line blurb or removed entirely, I would be mad as hell.

I have similar thought with my BA.

I own all of the Space Wolf characters (including both versions of Njal) and I'd probably be annoyed if any were cut... hell, I was annoyed that the Leman Russ Exterminator was removed from the 5th ed book, and I didn't even own one. But I'm just saying that if they were going to condense the books into one Codex, then they would probably trim the fat in the form of some of our less-useful characters, and that the models wouldn't be "garbage" after such a move.

Roll all space marines into the same codex and be done with it. Personally, this "they had their own codex" excuse doesn't make any sense to me. Even the whole "different units" excuse doesn't make any sense. Any special rules/variants can be addressed the same way chapter tactics were implemented.

"Any unit with the Space wolves chapter tactics may throw the word 'wolf' in front or behind of it's title to gain a +1 on weapon Str."

Example: Tactical >WOLF< Marines

See. Totally doable.

Inkubas wrote:
Roll all space marines into the same codex and be done with it. Personally, this "they had their own codex" excuse doesn't make any sense to me. Even the whole "different units" excuse doesn't make any sense. Any special rules/variants can be addressed the same way chapter tactics were implemented.

"Any unit with the Space wolves chapter tactics may throw the word 'wolf' in front or behind of it's title to gain a +1 on weapon Str."

Example: Tactical >WOLF< Marines

See. Totally doable.

Doable. Stupid, but doable.

 Anpu42 wrote:

11] Rune Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
12] Wolf Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
13] Iron Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
14] Wolf Lord: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
15] Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.

BA Captain can take Infernus pistols. Let's give them a new weapon that is basicly a rending Chainsword and give it some boring name like "Bloodblade".
Let's rename the Captain as Blood Lord.

"No way, it's a completely unique unit! We can't be rolled into C:SM!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Inkubas wrote:
Roll all space marines into the same codex and be done with it. Personally, this "they had their own codex" excuse doesn't make any sense to me. Even the whole "different units" excuse doesn't make any sense. Any special rules/variants can be addressed the same way chapter tactics were implemented.

"Any unit with the Space wolves chapter tactics may throw the word 'wolf' in front or behind of it's title to gain a +1 on weapon Str."

Example: Tactical >WOLF< Marines

See. Totally doable.

Doable. Stupid, but doable.

This.

Everyone who says that Space Wolves could easily be rolled into the Space Marine codex without losing anything important or taking up a ton of space has clearly never read the Space Wolf codex. You would have to get rid of half a dozen unique characters and vaporise a dozen or more at least semi-unique (Different stats and/or wargear) units just to get it down to a reasonable size, and even then the Space Wolves would take up more room than most of the other chapters combined.
Assuming that our 'Chapter Tactics' are what gives Acute Senses and Counter-Attack, (Which is about the same power level as the other Chapter Tactics), we've still got 3 or 4 differences in every single unit, minimum, barring vehicles.
Our 'Captains' have 13 unique pieces of wargear and options available to them. (Not counting anything which has an identical SM counterpart.)
Our Psykers have seven unique powers, different stats, access to Biomancy, different force weapons, and different special rules.
Our scouts have very different stats. Same with our assault, jump pack, and biker units.
Our basic troops are one of the most similar units available, and even they have several unique pieces of wargear, different base equipment, no captains, and different upgrade weapons.

I could go on with nearly every unit available. You'd either have to axe a half dozen or more options PER UNIT and change almost every model's stat-line in order to get them to fit in any kind of Space Marine book.

IMO the best thing GW could do with codices is simplify their format so all the rules are in 1 or 2 places.

I think it's absolutely moronic that they've gone back to having a wargear list separate to the army list (that's the way they did it in 2nd edition). It further spreads rules out.

We have the army list in the back of the book which tells you how to construct an army, oh but that just has points values and options, need to flip back to the entry earlier in the book to see the special rules. Oh but now you want to see what the weapons do, better flip to another section of the book. Oh, now you want to give the unit an upgrade weapon, better flip to another section of the book to find out how many points that costs. But wait, what was that army wide special rule this unit has? Better flip to another section of the book to find out. Oh and this unit can take some special non-weapon upgrades, better flip to another section of the book to find out what those do.

Once GW figures out how to write rules that aren't so convoluted and aren't strewn through half a dozen places in the army book, then maybe we can start talking about consolidating actual codices together.

Honestly, I'd be more than happy if all armies were in a single book. Maybe divide it in to a couple of books. Then give us separate fluff books.

But as it is now, no, Space Wolves don't even follow the astartes structure, they can have their own book.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Everyone who says that Space Wolves could easily be rolled into the Space Marine codex without losing anything important or taking up a ton of space has clearly never read the Space Wolf codex.

Anyone making such a statement clearly hasn't read the thread, which is illustrated by the person in question then going on to rehash arguments that we've already had in the thread.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Everyone who says that Space Wolves could easily be rolled into the Space Marine codex without losing anything important or taking up a ton of space has clearly never read the Space Wolf codex.

Anyone making such a statement clearly hasn't read the thread, which is illustrated by the person in question then going on to rehash arguments that we've already had in the thread.

Once people stop insisting that 20+ units can be axed and dozens of uniaue wargear options too wuthout losing the feel and style of the army, I'll stop pointung out how obviously wrong that is.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Once people stop insisting that 20+ units can be axed and dozens of uniaue wargear options too wuthout losing the feel and style of the army, I'll stop pointung out how obviously wrong that is.

Its not wrong, nor is it obvious.

I could throw around baseless accusations and point out alleged facts, like how all the people defending Space Wolves are super fan boys incapable of a rational discussion, but I wouldn't do that.

Instead, we can discuss how every other faction still plays uniquely and according to fluff without a dedicated codex for each and every member of that faction. Every Imperial Guard player can play themed regiments without a specific codex; other marine players can have a great Salamander army without Codex: Salamanders; Orks can run a Speed Freaks force without a dozen special characters and incredibly minor tweaks to wargear options.

None of those factions need a codex with a dozen slightly different (and often better) wargear options or a slew of characters that could be represented through a generic HQ with appropriate wargear.

The same goes for Space Wolves. If they never had a codex to begin with, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but because they were randomly selected to have one, we're stuck with a bunch of units created only to justify their separate codex.

Again why does it matter.
1] There is One extra Codex out there that people will not buy.
2] There is One extra Codex out there that people will not buy.
3] If you are not going to buy it, it will not cost you a dime.
4] If you are going to buy it, it becomes one less Pack of Grey Hunter or Long Fangs for people to not complain about.

As I think that giant dudes in power armour riding giant wolves are slowed as hell and the snowflake character of the wolves can be conveyed by
a) chapter tactics
b) a couple of unique units
and both of this has been done in the C:SM codex, i think that wolves can very well be rolled into the C:SM dex. I bet 3/4 of the differences in the loadout options and squad design have been made to justify another codex in the first place.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Name just one Special Character who's been lost in the past five years, who has an official GW model.

Uriah Jacobus. He came back, though.
Kyrinov. This one came back, and then disappeared again.
Also every other SC for Sisters of Battle except Celestine, but they did not had models.


I am pretty sure Space Wolves cannot be rolled into C:SM because they have too many unique units. For instance, they have the unicorn wolf troop carrier. It is very unique. Well, it has the very same rule as a rhino, except for this very important rule that says only space wolves can enter in it . Its fluff is also totally different : they are exactly like rhino, but hairy (because the space wolves like to put wolves pelts on them) and have pointy teeth (because the space wolves like to hang teeth collar around them. And visually, it is also very different, because it is painted gray. That makes the wolves very different from other chapters.
Also psychic power. Let us not forget psychic powers. Yes, they change at every edition of the rule, yes they are also based on the warp, but they must be different. Because.

 Blacksails wrote:

Instead, we can discuss how every other faction still plays uniquely and according to fluff without a dedicated codex for each and every member of that faction. Every Imperial Guard player can play themed regiments without a specific codex; other marine players can have a great Salamander army without Codex: Salamanders; Orks can run a Speed Freaks force without a dozen special characters and incredibly minor tweaks to wargear options.

None of those factions need a codex with a dozen slightly different (and often better) wargear options or a slew of characters that could be represented through a generic HQ with appropriate wargear.

Except Black Templars, the faction that best illustrates what happens if/when you get folded, doesn't.

Yes and no. I don't think any Space Marine chapter is distinct enough to warrant its own codex, but at the same time there is a significant difference in force structure and army composition in the non-Codex chapters. A combined Space Marine Codex would be sprawling and would result in a massive release anytime it was updated. Ideally, I think a Codex Chapters Codex augmented by minidexes for non Codex chapters would be be the best set up.

Oxayotl: Yes, hyperbole and intentionally wrong comparisons are the best way convey accurate information and opinions.


I agree with Almighty Walrus here We've got a historical example of a codex being folded in, (One which was ancient, had fairly little unique gear, and was hurting for an update.) That Codex was completely shat upon, lost most its best and unique things, and the general consensus is that it was worse than not being updated at all.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/583414.page#6606741

niv-mizzet wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/583414.page#6606741

Have an exalt.

Well I put my 2 cents in with a pinch of humor as this will typically go nowhere. Although, I'm curious now as why people feel so strongly against this. I understand that SW have different rules and units but aren't you guys summarizing all the differences here? Why can't it be done in a space marine codex just like the BT? Personally, I think it makes sense and having a BA, SW, BT, DA codex that is separate than the SM codex doesn't. One could almost say since some chapters are so different let's make a codex for everyone of them and give them special units and gear all. Codex Red Scorpions - sure. Astral Claws - why not? White Scars? Let's give them a new unit that's like a space marine bike stacked onto itself with some Mogul ascetic. I never heard of centurion space marines prior to 6th edition and now its cannon. It can be done so why shouldn't it be done?

Or, how about this - roll SW, DA, BA, BT and maybe GK into a single Codex and keep the codex-compliant chapters in their own book. Solves a lot of the "too much extra space!" arguments and it'd be built for divergence.

Inkubas wrote:
Although, I'm curious now as why people feel so strongly against this. Why can't it be done in a space marine codex just like the BT?

Have you considered that it's because it would be done like BT that SW players/fans feel so strongly against it? We now have a text book (literally) case of what the result looks like when a divergent Chapter gets rolled in. It doesn't look good...

It can be done so why shouldn't it be done?

It could just as easily be asked: "just because it can be done why should it?" We have an answer to that question: because GW would feth it right up. Taking the BT case study as a template, a rolled SW would have half or more of their stuff cut out and the rest hammered and bent into the Codex so that what remains no longer feels like SW, but rather Grey Smurfs.

So, like I said before: can they? Sure, quite easily, in fact. Should they? No, probably not, going on what happened to BT.

I also believe that, as a whole, any game should be GROWING over time. There should always be a new class, a new skill, a new ability, a new unit or new content in general. The game's mechanics and universe should always be growing as long as the company wants to make money off it.

The market experts can guess, but they can never really know if, when they put out the next new thing, if THAT will be the thing that gets the next customer onto the slippery slope where he forks over a grand or more to GW stores.

Culling options, like removing characters or units, eliminates some of those possibilities. If I really liked the idea of elite scouts for SW or the death company for BA, but wasn't invested in the game yet, hearing that the coming codex has omitted them might just send me off to a different wargame.

TL;DR moar content! moar units! not less!

Some of us would like more different options, like something not in power armour, using bolters, rhinos, and having ATSKNF. Maybe an entirely different faction?

Seven different flavours of power armour is hardly variety.

Legit point. Anyone here play BT before they were rolled and enjoy the new change? What changes improved and what didn't? I'm under the stance that it was an improvement so when thinking SW being rolled, it would be for the better. Never considered it like that. Changes things...

Inkubas wrote:
Legit point. Anyone here play BT before they were rolled and enjoy the new change? What changes improved and what didn't? I'm under the stance that it was an improvement so when thinking SW being rolled, it would be for the better. Never considered it like that. Changes things...

Oh I'd be happy to have Thunderfire Cannons and an actual flyer, but losing elite, backfield-outflanking Wolf Scouts would be very sad.

 Blacksails wrote:
Some of us would like more different options, like something not in power armour, using bolters, rhinos, and having ATSKNF. Maybe an entirely different faction?

Seven different flavours of power armour is hardly variety.

there are different ones...

Nids
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Tau
Deamons
IG
Knights
Necrons
Orks
Sisters

that's a lot of options to choose from...

But as we've gone over, round and round... they could, but to the players of the armies who play them, it wouldn't be the same.

I mean in reality, stat wise they could roll all the units int one, their base stat lines (in codex sm) are the same, it's just weapon load out for a chunk of them, that make them diffrnet... of course, people like me, enjoy the many pages of fluff in our codex, while i don'at really care about UM fluff...

I'm aware there are other armies, but if someone is advocating greater diversity in the game, I'd expect them to advocate greater variety, not just more colours of power armoured duded.

I understand the players that play these codices will disagree with me, and I never expected anything different. I just can't help but think the game would be better if they never existed as their own in the first place. Hence why I think they should be rolled in.

Let me ask this... how would it be better?

Serious question... I don't see how it is better or worse...

well generaly speaking... the only thing i see is the time put into the codex, but in the case of the ba, they had a dual codex in second, a mini dex in 3rd, a wd crapdex in 4th and a full one in 5th...

Lets just go back to third edition then. All Space Marines are the same. No chapter tactics as such, but you could get a digital codex (called a White Dwarf magazine for some reason) for 15$ that adds special rules, wargear and a character or two for each unique flavor of BA, DA, SW, WS, RG and so on, but only if your opponent has read that magazine err codex and agrees.

Problem solved. I'm sure perfect game balance will ensue and you only need to own one codex.

Durandal wrote:
Lets just go back to third edition then. All Space Marines are the same. No chapter tactics as such, but you could get a digital codex (called a White Dwarf magazine for some reason) for 15$ that adds special rules, wargear and a character or two for each unique flavor of BA, DA, SW, WS, RG and so on, but only if your opponent has read that magazine err codex and agrees.

Problem solved. I'm sure perfect game balance will ensue and you only need to own one codex.

BA, DA, SW all had their own 3rd edition mini dex

heck, 3rd was the forst time they had a codex space marines, 2nd was SW, angels of death and UM...

Brother Weasel wrote:
Let me ask this... how would it be better?

Serious question... I don't see how it is better or worse...

well generaly speaking... the only thing i see is the time put into the codex, but in the case of the ba, they had a dual codex in second, a mini dex in 3rd, a wd crapdex in 4th and a full one in 5th...

It would give every marine player more options without being forced into picking one book for a handful of units. It would allow for other, more diverse army books in the same codex cycle (assuming GW would still behave mostly the same), or allowing just quicker updates for every other book. It would stop the marine power creep, where each one has generally been better than the one before it, and BA and SW have generally just been vanilla +1 in 5th.

The biggest drawbacks would be the loss of some of the fluff printed in the new book, and cutting some of the lesser used characters that likely wouldn't be missed too much. In return, each generic HQ character would have more options to re-create most of those characters anyways. The fluff aspect would certainly get some people riled up, but I don't have a horse in this race so I'm largely indifferent. As a Salamander fan, I was fine with the amount of fluff for them, so opinions vary.

Now, I admit BT were a bit of a hack job, but that's because of implementation, not the concept. If GW were any good at game design and rules writing, rolling all the marines in would work out just fine. That and I don't think a new codex would have really fixed a whole lot, or made them play like they're represented in the fluff. Its not like 5th ed Wolves were known for being an assault oriented army on the table top.

I also don't think you need a dozen special characters and other minor differences in wargear to make a unique force. Clearly I'm in a minority in this thread, though I imagine this thread draws a lot more fans of Wolves than people who are indifferent.

Brother Weasel wrote:

Durandal wrote:
Lets just go back to third edition then. All Space Marines are the same. No chapter tactics as such, but you could get a digital codex (called a White Dwarf magazine for some reason) for 15$ that adds special rules, wargear and a character or two for each unique flavor of BA, DA, SW, WS, RG and so on, but only if your opponent has read that magazine err codex and agrees.

Problem solved. I'm sure perfect game balance will ensue and you only need to own one codex.

BA, DA, SW all had their own 3rd edition mini dex

heck, 3rd was the forst time they had a codex space marines, 2nd was SW, angels of death and UM...

And this goes all the way back to 2nd, I still have my 2nd and 3rd Edition Codex: Space Wolves along with the 5th.
They never had to much in common with Codex: Space Marines in any edition, but 1st.

 Blacksails wrote:

Brother Weasel wrote:
Let me ask this... how would it be better?

Serious question... I don't see how it is better or worse...

well generaly speaking... the only thing i see is the time put into the codex, but in the case of the ba, they had a dual codex in second, a mini dex in 3rd, a wd crapdex in 4th and a full one in 5th...

It would give every marine player more options without being forced into picking one book for a handful of units. It would allow for other, more diverse army books in the same codex cycle (assuming GW would still behave mostly the same), or allowing just quicker updates for every other book. It would stop the marine power creep, where each one has generally been better than the one before it, and BA and SW have generally just been vanilla +1 in 5th.

The biggest drawbacks would be the loss of some of the fluff printed in the new book, and cutting some of the lesser used characters that likely wouldn't be missed too much. In return, each generic HQ character would have more options to re-create most of those characters anyways. The fluff aspect would certainly get some people riled up, but I don't have a horse in this race so I'm largely indifferent. As a Salamander fan, I was fine with the amount of fluff for them, so opinions vary.

Now, I admit BT were a bit of a hack job, but that's because of implementation, not the concept. If GW were any good at game design and rules writing, rolling all the marines in would work out just fine. That and I don't think a new codex would have really fixed a whole lot, or made them play like they're represented in the fluff. Its not like 5th ed Wolves were known for being an assault oriented army on the table top.

I also don't think you need a dozen special characters and other minor differences in wargear to make a unique force. Clearly I'm in a minority in this thread, though I imagine this thread draws a lot more fans of Wolves than people who are indifferent.

I'll agree with you.. it could be done, it could be done very well... Slight increase in pages....

BUT

I think the part the SW and my fellow BA players are stuck on.. is that we don't think GW could do it well... so we'd rather them not hack up our armies. (we've seen BT, we know how the Knight Dex is, we've seen the Suppliments...)

i also agree about SC... we never used em in 3rd and 4th... tired of them in 5th and 6th

 Blacksails wrote:

I understand the players that play these codices will disagree with me, and I never expected anything different. I just can't help but think the game would be better if they never existed as their own in the first place. Hence why I think they should be rolled in.

The thing is, it's a bit late for that now. The genie's out of the bottle, and punching it in the face is going to make the fans of the genie upset.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

I understand the players that play these codices will disagree with me, and I never expected anything different. I just can't help but think the game would be better if they never existed as their own in the first place. Hence why I think they should be rolled in.

The thing is, it's a bit late for that now. The genie's out of the bottle, and punching it in the face is going to make the fans of the genie upset.

Which I'm well aware of.

I thought it was understood we were talking in hypotheticals.

 Blacksails wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

I understand the players that play these codices will disagree with me, and I never expected anything different. I just can't help but think the game would be better if they never existed as their own in the first place. Hence why I think they should be rolled in.

The thing is, it's a bit late for that now. The genie's out of the bottle, and punching it in the face is going to make the fans of the genie upset.

Which I'm well aware of.

I thought it was understood we were talking in hypotheticals.

Well, yes, hypothetically it'd potentially be better for the game if the variant Space Marine Codices didn't get released, but that's four editions back now. It'd be a lot more useful to debate hypotheticals that have something to do with the current state of the game, and not "what if this hadn't happened two decades ago?!"...

NO.

 Blacksails wrote:
Some of us would like more different options, like something not in power armour, using bolters, rhinos, and having ATSKNF. Maybe an entirely different faction?

Seven different flavours of power armour is hardly variety.

That just comes down to GW's focus. GW could release all SM in a single month or maybe two and just copy/paste codices with a couple of updates for the new edition and I'd be fine with that. Still don't want them rolled in to one epic codex.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Once people stop insisting that 20+ units can be axed and dozens of uniaue wargear options too wuthout losing the feel and style of the army, I'll stop pointung out how obviously wrong that is.

Sigh... Okay, how many times would you like us to tell you that:

1) wolves do not have 20+ unique units.
2) no-one was removing those units. If you lost Swiftclaws and gained SM Bikes I hardly believe any of you would cry out.
3) having +1S PW is hardly a unique weapon.

Just keep Grey Hunters, keep Blood Claws, keep Wolf Scouts and keep some of your special characters.
Paint them blue, add the word "Wolf" everywhere and call them Space Wolves. Losing a couple of wargear options doesn't mean they are instantly Ultrasmurfs.

 soomemafia wrote:


Just keep Grey Hunters, keep Blood Claws, keep Wolf Scouts and keep some of your special characters.
Paint them blue, add the word "Wolf" everywhere and call them Space Wolves. Losing a couple of wargear options doesn't mean they are instantly Ultrasmurfs.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Oxayotl: Yes, hyperbole and intentionally wrong comparisons are the best way convey accurate information and opinions.

Yeah, but that is not their objective. They just try to be funny and witty, you know. They try very hard, even though not always with success.

Waaaghpower wrote:
We've got a historical example of a codex being folded in, (One which was ancient, had fairly little unique gear, and was hurting for an update.) That Codex was completely shat upon, lost most its best and unique things, and the general consensus is that it was worse than not being updated at all.

Because being updated while not folded does prevent from being “shat upon” ?
I think we have plenty of evidence contrary to that.

Brother Weasel wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Some of us would like more different options, like something not in power armour, using bolters, rhinos, and having ATSKNF. Maybe an entirely different faction?

Seven different flavours of power armour is hardly variety.

there are different ones... […]
Sisters

Well, Sisters qualify as they do not have ATSKNF, but they have all the rest ! Still, they have way more room for huge variation from C:SM because of their fluff.

Fandarel wrote:
Really?

If i would lose my Choser of the Slain, i would be pissed!
If i would lose my Thunderwolves, i would be pissed!
If i would lose my unique Psiweapons, i would be pissed!
If i would lose my Wolveclaws, i would be pissed!
If i would lose my Saga of the ..., i would be pissed!

Any Questions?

Yes, I do have one. Why on earth do you believe you would keep all that in the next edition of you codex ? I mean, apart from Thunderwolves that are not going away because models, I am sure any of it can just go poof anyway.
Oh, and another question, also. Why do you think SW should get power weapons+1 that are not available to any other force of the Imperium ?

Rather than roll up everything into a newer, bigger codex, at the very least release Codex: Space Marines FIRST next edition, so players of the other chapters won't feel totally boned.

I am not saying I want the Codex Marines units Dark Angels can't use, but I do want my units that are the exact same between the two to function the same. I really hate how bad my scouts are compared to Codex Marines scouts. Not being able to take a teleport homer really hurts their viability. I also really hate that I'm forced to bring teleport homers on my bikes for what's essentially +6 points a model over Codex Marine bikers.

If they made The Big Book of Space Marines and released every power armor army into one $100 giant volume, I wouldn't have an issue with it. The thing that needs to be addressed, though, is the stuff that's the same between the codices, not the things that are different.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Oh, and another question, also. Why do you think SW should get power weapons+1 that are not available to any other force of the Imperium ?

Yes Power Weapons +1, that cost as much as a Relic Blade or Power Fist.

 soomemafia wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Once people stop insisting that 20+ units can be axed and dozens of uniaue wargear options too wuthout losing the feel and style of the army, I'll stop pointung out how obviously wrong that is.

Sigh... Okay, how many times would you like us to tell you that:

1) wolves do not have 20+ unique units.
2) no-one was removing those units. If you lost Swiftclaws and gained SM Bikes I hardly believe any of you would cry out.
3) having +1S PW is hardly a unique weapon.

Just keep Grey Hunters, keep Blood Claws, keep Wolf Scouts and keep some of your special characters.
Paint them blue, add the word "Wolf" everywhere and call them Space Wolves. Losing a couple of wargear options doesn't mean they are instantly Ultrasmurfs.

1.) Yes they do? There are over 20 units who cannot be replicated inthe SM codex by simply adjusting the available wargear.In Niz-Mivvets review he found 19, but the Wolf Priest still has a different function than a Chaplain (PE over Hatred) and Wolf Lords are different from Chapter Masters, if only by 1 Wound and the lack of Orbital Bombardment.
So no, not 20+ units who are more varied than the colors of the rainbow, but yes, 20+ Unique units.

2.) If we lost any -Claw unit, I'd be annoyed. The fluff, function, rules, and stats all have a pretty high variance compared to the nearest codex equivalent.

3.) Of course not. That's why we have dozens of other unique options. But thank you for pointing out that one thing we have available to us isn't totally unique.


Seriously though, by the logic in this thread, Tactical Marines, Scouts, Bikes, Assault Marines, Veterans, Cebturions, Terminators.... Almost every unit in the Space Marine codex could just be one unit, because it's just the wargear and a couple of stats that are different.

Waaaghpower wrote:
the Wolf Priest still has a different function than a Chaplain (PE over Hatred) and Wolf Lords are different from Chapter Masters, if only by 1 Wound and the lack of Orbital Bombardment.

That is nitpicking at its best. How does giving PE rather Hatred here makes the Wolf Priest rules more faithful to its stuff ? Yeah, I know, for absolutely no reason. The Wolf Priest did not specifically study all the weakness and perks of everything he ever fights, and he is not giving that knowledge over to his unit. He is just telling his pal how the enemies are very very bad guys and so his pups start being really angry at them.
How then is PE better to represent his fluff ?
As for Wolf Lord having one less wound, how the hell is that supposed to be meaningful of anything ?
Seriously, I assume you are either quite new to 40k, or the Space Wolves are an exception, because there are quite often much much more drastic change on two different iterations of the very same unit when a new codex edition comes up.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Seriously though, by the logic in this thread, Tactical Marines, Scouts, Bikes, Assault Marines, Veterans, Cebturions, Terminators.... Almost every unit in the Space Marine codex could just be one unit, because it's just the wargear and a couple of stats that are different.

Now you are being silly.

I'M NOT SAYING THEY'RE major differences. But they are just that: Differences. All I was pointing out was that they did have something unique, at least a little bit, because soneone else said that there weren't 20+ unique units.

I would still love to see a mock-up of the hypothetical super-codex that incorporates all the marine armies.

I'm having trouble imagining what some of the pages look like, such as the simple assault marine page, which would need to explain what can be taken and point BA and SW players to their respective armories, and also give SW players a chance to remove their sarge, and lower their WS and BS by 1, while adding berserk charge and headstrong.

In addition to the scary complexity of also making Death company an upgrade offshoot of them as has been previously mentioned a couple times.

I can't imagine it as anything less than an incomprehensible ugly mess, but if someone threw up a mockup, I might be surprised by the result.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'M NOT SAYING THEY'RE major differences. But they are just that: Differences. All I was pointing out was that they did have something unique, at least a little bit,

So, is this what you were saying :
“There are small differences that are mostly artifacts from the fact not all codecies are updated together, and that in no way represent the fluff of the unit better. That is a good thing, and we should keep them as much as possible.” ?
Or was is more “There are small differences that are mostly artifacts from the fact not all codecies are updated together, and that in no way represent the fluff of the unit better. That is not a good thing, and it would be good to remove them, but I am mentioning them for accuracy's sake.” ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
As for Wolf Lord having one less wound, how the hell is that supposed to be meaningful of anything ?

Isn't this because Wolf Lords aren't Chapter leaders, they're Company Leaders, and WGBL aren't Captains, they are the leaders of the WG.

But anyway, I think this discussion has been flogged to death.

Could you add SW to the SM codex? Yes, you could.

You would either have to remove a lot of the differences between SM and SW or write in a lot of special rules to capture the differences.

The first option isn't going to make SW players happy, the 2nd option will result in a large, complicated and bloated codex (especially once you start adding all the special rules for BA and DA as well).

I, for one, don't want to buy an excessively complicated $150 SM codex to play one Chapter simply because the book also contains the rules to play other Chapters I don't play. I also don't want BA/SW/DA trimmed to fit in to the SM codex in such a way that doesn't cause bloat/expense.

I understand that other people might want to see a "big book of marine", or other people might want those other chapters cut back. This is where the "should they" rather than "could they" comes in to it and I really don't think we're going to see all that much agreement on it.