So in no uncertain terms, i've been told by many players in my local club, they'll refuse to play me if I bring my Knight titan. Played this Tau guy, play him most weeks and generally he'll win (general camping Tau tactics, smart missiles, marker lights, riptides etc.) this time I tore him apart with my Storm Raven/IK combo, now hes saying he won't play me again. Now everytime I get tabled by him (it's not hard when i'm running a 12 model list...) I don't moan, I just take it in my stride, I don't care it's all fun. However, since he played something he didn't know how to deal with right away, he's gonna refuse any games from now on.
This other guy too, who brings stuff from stronghold assault without even asking his opponent (i know its part of 40k now, but its common courtesy) says he won't play me either. Yet, he is one of the most try hard WAAC players, he's the most irritant person to play against, however he's a challenge.

I can understand the worry of coming up against a super heavy with D strength weapons, but really it's not invincible in the slightest. You won't know how to take it down, unless you've come across one. Has anyone else had this problem so far?

"Fair enough. I'll not bring him again"..."oh, please don't bring your riptide next time we play. I'm not playing you with those".

Refusing to play a legal force "because" is rather petty. Especially for someone with multi riptides.

"Can you please not use that as I Cannot afford to buy/proxy a model capable of dealing with it and it would render the game unbalanced and therefore pointless"

This is arguably acceptable

"Wah Wah GW finally released something on par with my G.I. Joe sized walker and I don't like that my walker now has a counter balance"

This is unacceptable


Now admittedly having seen the Knight's stat's its not gamebreakingly unkillable or devastating and certainly has a place in standard 40k, this coming from someone who very much dislikes the new escalation and stronghold assault supplements being rolled into core 40k.

The point is the game should be balanced to avoid being a boring slaughter. The knight is fairly well balanced as a model in pre-escalation, yes its killy and tanky but since 6th edition hit no one;s really had to use true anti tank, we've been reliant on autocannons and meltacide units its nice to see a legitimate reason to start packing real ranged anti tank weapons.

I'm under no illusions that it's essentially all mine will ever be, but large models are my favorite to build and paint, so I'm ok with that.

If I get to give him a run out now and again to shake loose the (painstakingly applied by hand) rust and dirt, then I'll view it as a bonus.

Which, considering it is fundamentally a gaming piece, first and foremost, is a bit sad when you think about it.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why game balance is a GOOD thing.

A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

Still a vehicle, cannot ignore cover, can be one shotted, his 4++ save only covers one direction.


Anyways it sounds like spoiled children mad they cannot curbstomp someone anymore.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

Still a vehicle, cannot ignore cover, can be one shotted, his 4++ save only covers one direction.


Anyways it sounds like spoiled children mad they cannot curbstomp someone anymore.

Can't one shot a super heavy with less than a D weapon, if that.

I play nids, I don't curb stomp anyone. I can threaten and tarpit riptides. Heck even my super heavies are going to have trouble with it and cost near double.

Doesn't the knight only have 6HP?

I just can't believe what people will say that need to win with plastic toy soldiers.

Why not go to the guy who plays Tau, and tell him nicely how you keep loosing every game and get tabled, but yet not complain about it. Then tell him how it's funny he looses one game and he is copping out of playing a game.

Then ask him how it's ok for him to play over powered games and nobody else can play one against him.

yeah sounds like the people crying are the guys who have been at the powerful side of things and are angry. for the record I was talking to an eldar player at my local GW today, whose brother has IKs. he says they're tough but he's reasonably comfortable a WK can take em down.

let alone the two he can afford for the price of a knight

baritowned wrote:
Doesn't the knight only have 6HP?

Yes, it might not be one shotted exactly, but it'll go down in quite fewer hits then the Riptide.

Well, it seems OP plays with rare breed of gakkers.

1 - IK, just single one is balanced. Strong, but can be destroyed even with mediocre use of common sense and antitank weaponry.
2 - But Ok, sometimes its fin to say you dont want to play some units.
3 - But from the guy making cheesy riptide lists and worse, guy who uses SA?? Thats strong stuff to digest. I would recommend to say OK, no Knight...but in tjat case Im bored by your Riptides/ dont agree with using SA.

And honestly, is there fun in playing with kids (and they are kids, no matter their biological age)? I hope there are other players in your FLGS, because this is just petulent cryin "I want to win my games...at aaaaal cost!" and soun to me rather like annoyance.

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

Yeah, too bad it costs 375 points and has, what, 24"range, 12 run?

Now lets consider Riptides 72 range, with the TL missile systems, or 2+/3++ or 3d6 thrust move(i mean, a knight cant even CATCH it) or the other interceptor bs it has, All for what? 2/3 of the price? Also MC.

Please, stahp defending your riptides.

As much as it's anecdotal, I can attest to a single Knight being far from impossible to take out. Only today, mine was brought down, with 4 of the 6 HP being stripped by a single melta shot, so it's not like they're entirely unkillable monstrosities. 2+ is probably pushing it, but most armies can probably take 1 without too much trouble, especially if they know you're bringing one. Anyone refusing to play one is perfectly within their rights, but also probably overreacting far too much.

The thing with Knights is, you actually have to play strategically to beat them, so anyone who's used to playing a point-and-click army is going to have to (shock horror) actually think about what they are doing.

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

IK is 6HP.
4+ invul works only in shooting and on direction from four.
He is seriously weakened in CC woth anythin else than MC or vehicle. You can tarpit him, he has average WS, invul doesnt work.
Actually S10 AP1 can end him very quickly.
I have seen him destroyed by vendetta, simple LC platoon, of course meltavets, took apart in CC by space maeines etc. Usually aroun turn 3 or 4 and he wasnt only target.

Sorry but this is just making urban WH40K legend. And if "some armies" cant take AV13 in six turn as you say, well, its just bad armies or degenerated by specific meta.
Sometimes I feel people are spinning such storoes just because there is unit which requires different tactics and sometimes, god forbid, tweaking of army list, because "ignore cover on ALL" doesnt work on him. For example.

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

Wait, seriously?! Are you unable to read or just really new to 40k. Armor 13/12 and 6HP is unfairly tough for what army? If you play DE I might give you a pass, but otherwise you don't have much to go on here. I don't think a TAC list I run (see sig for armies I play) would find the IK broken to deal with. I'd expect it to do about about 400 points of damage on the way out, unless I do something dumb or roll poorly... Which is how a game should go. 400 points of anti-vehicle tau would drop one in most games. A cadre would do it no problem.

I'm sorry, but I'll give props where they're due. This is a very well balanced unit (especially when just running a stag). I'll gladly use one or two, and would be far less worried about this than a VessaStar(sp?) or a SeerStar in a tourney. For a Tau player to begrudge an IK is just stupid hypocrisy defined.

Someone who refuses to play a knight titan has absolutely no valid reason for refusal other than they just don't want to play against that particular unit. It's exactly the same as refusing to play against Riptides because you think they are overpowered. That generally isn't considered acceptable, so why is refusing to play against a knight?

Knights are very obviously NOT Escalation despite some people's tendency to bury their heads in the sand.

We can all see the way GW is going with superheavies so what's the point in trying to resist? Jump on board and start having fun.

 UlrikDecado wrote:

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

IK is 6HP.
4+ invul works only in shooting and on direction from four.
He is seriously weakened in CC woth anythin else than MC or vehicle. You can tarpit him, he has average WS, invul doesnt work.
Actually S10 AP1 can end him very quickly.
I have seen him destroyed by vendetta, simple LC platoon, of course meltavets, took apart in CC by space maeines etc. Usually aroun turn 3 or 4 and he wasnt only target.

Sorry but this is just making urban WH40K legend. And if "some armies" cant take AV13 in six turn as you say, well, its just bad armies or degenerated by specific meta.
Sometimes I feel people are spinning such storoes just because there is unit which requires different tactics and sometimes, god forbid, tweaking of army list, because "ignore cover on ALL" doesnt work on him. For example.

Only 6 HP? Thought it was 9, that does make it a little easier but not much. I have also seen a lone guant hold a wraithknight up for 4 rounds, does not mean it is typical or mathematically probable.

Nid's have a hard time against av13 and 14 period, since they actually have to catch it for CC. IG and Marines can handles one Knight as they have alot of options for it. Stomp is going to chew through most tarpit units. All Super Heavy walkers get a chance to one shot an MC/FMC in melee even with out a D weapon. Stomp damage chart of a 6 is removed from play. And if you do kill it in melee, you have the wonderful 15" blast to take the lucky melee unit out. If you army doesn't have mass S9 ap2/1 or s10 ap2/1 or ap2/1 melta it is going to be an uphill fight against more than one knight.

barnowl wrote:
If you army does have mass S9 ap2/1 or s10 ap2/1 or ap2/1 melta it is going to be an uphill fight against more than one knight.

Fortunately for me, my Eldar list has mass S8 AP2 Lance weapons.

 Lobukia wrote:

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

Wait, seriously?! Are you unable to read or just really new to 40k. Armor 13/12 and 6HP is unfairly tough for what army? If you play DE I might give you a pass, but otherwise you don't have much to go on here. I don't think a TAC list I run (see sig for armies I play) would find the IK broken to deal with. I'd expect it to do about about 400 points of damage on the way out, unless I do something dumb or roll poorly... Which is how a game should go. 400 points of anti-vehicle tau would drop one in most games. A cadre would do it no problem.

I'm sorry, but I'll give props where they're due. This is a very well balanced unit (especially when just running a stag). I'll gladly use one or two, and would be far less worried about this than a VessaStar(sp?) or a SeerStar in a tourney. For a Tau player to begrudge an IK is just stupid hypocrisy defined.

I can see Tau/Ig/Marine and maybe Eldar having not much trouble with a solo. DE/Ork/Nid/Sister I see having very hard times with them. If it had not been a super heavy it would be pretty balanced. I find the super heavy and D melee skew it to much. The I'K is a much stronger unit than a RipTide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

barnowl wrote:
If you army does have mass S9 ap2/1 or s10 ap2/1 or ap2/1 melta it is going to be an uphill fight against more than one knight.

Fortunately for me, my Eldar list has mass S8 AP2 Lance weapons.

That is one of the reasons I see eldar fairing okay against them.

I refuse to play against a Knight Titan.

I will give anyone who attempts to call their Knight suit a Titan a flat look until they squirm and apologise.

Unfortunately i cannot play 40k as there is nobody who does in my area, however i wouldnt really care if someone fielded one of those Imperial Knights.
2 Predator tanks with 3 lascannons each and problem solved.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I refuse to play against a Knight Titan.

I will give anyone who attempts to call their Knight suit a Titan a flat look until they squirm and apologise.

Given GW have called it a Knight Titan... you may be staring at them a mighty long time before you get an apology.

Find a more mature group of players who have learned that sometimes you get to be the cops and they can be the robbers and then sometimes you will be the robbers and they can be the cops.

I learned this when I was 6.

What is it with people insisting on commenting on units when they clearly have no idea how they function?

That said, OP, your group sounds like a bunch of tossers.

This thing is a disaster for Orks.

 TedNugent wrote:
This thing is a disaster for Orks.

a stompa outta be able to handle knights. in terms of cash outlay Orks actually are in a good place as their super heavy is cheaper

Sounds like a bunch of real champions don't want to have their hard won winning streaks ruined by someone who brought a bigger gun. They're just being childish, don't take it too hard.

If, of course, what the OP is saying is 100% true.

I'm sorry, Dark Eldar and Sisters of Battle cant take it down?

Are you being serious?

Tau tears are delicious.

Having seen the stats of the Knight, it doesn't appear to be broken at all. It's big and nasty in melee, so that's why it must be intimidating.

AV13 (front armor only), 6HP and a 4++ (only on one side) can be pretty durable, but its nothing really impressive once you consider it's 375 points.

Figured this would happen...

Just like everyones response to Flyers was better AA and Counter Flyers, which leads to Double and Triple Flyers, leaving me to HAVE to get a Double Heldrake list that everyone was so afraid of facing in the first place...

Once everyone develops counters for Knights, Chaos will get them so everyone expecting them will be ready to kill Chaos Knights instead.

danp164 wrote:
"Can you please not use that as I Cannot afford to buy/proxy a model capable of dealing with it and it would render the game unbalanced and therefore pointless"

This is arguably acceptable

How so?

 Gitsmasher wrote:

danp164 wrote:
"Can you please not use that as I Cannot afford to buy/proxy a model capable of dealing with it and it would render the game unbalanced and therefore pointless"

This is arguably acceptable

How so?

Because it is saying "in the interest of having a fair and enjoyable game, would you mind not using that as I don't have anything that can deal with it" which is a fairly reasonable request and will likely mean both players have a more challenging and enjoyable game.

$170 for a shelf ornament? Ugh, no thanks. I'd bring the damn thing anyway and tell everyone to stop acting like whiny sissies.

In my view Superheavies should be reserved for Apocalypse, or at least large over 2000pts or so with mutual agreement. I'm not going to play against superheavies unless its an Apocalypse game. I'm by no means a WAAC player. I don't use the most powerful units and internet lists, or min-max my lists to be a hard counter to other popular lists. I'm a Raven Guard player who always plays a fluffy army, focusing on Scouts, Tactical Squads and Sternguard Veterans, Assault Squads and Vanguard Veterans, Devestators, Drop Pods, Land Speeders, a single Stormtalon etc. When I play a game I want it to be enjoyable, and I don't imagine facing Superheavies in say a 1500pt game can be much fun.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
$170 for a shelf ornament? Ugh, no thanks. I'd bring the damn thing anyway and tell everyone to stop acting like whiny sissies.

And they'll tell you to shove it where the sun don't shine. Bluster all you like, other players are not obliged to play against you in a friendly setting. If they don't want to play against a Superheavy in a normal game of 40K, they don't have to play with you.

Go play at a tournament if you want captive opponents.

Knights are powerful, but they're hardly overpowered. They'll go down to the usual anti-vehicle things. Hit them with a melta squad on the vulnerable sides.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
In my view Superheavies should be reserved for Apocalypse, or at least large over 2000pts or so with mutual agreement. I'm not going to play against superheavies unless its an Apocalypse game.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
$170 for a shelf ornament? Ugh, no thanks. I'd bring the damn thing anyway and tell everyone to stop acting like whiny sissies.

And they'll tell you to shove it where the sun don't shine. Bluster all you like, other players are not obliged to play against you in a friendly setting. If they don't want to play against a Superheavy in a normal game of 40K, they don't have to play with you.

Go play at a tournament if you want captive opponents.

Then I'll declare myself the best 40k player in the store and have everyone else buy me chips, coffee, and also assemble my models. They won't have a choice because they're be too scurred of mah Knight!

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Then I'll declare myself the best 40k player in the store and have everyone else buy me chips, coffee, and also assemble my models. They won't have a choice because they're be too scurred of mah Knight!

And everyone in the room will back away and make excuses to leave.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Then I'll declare myself the best 40k player in the store and have everyone else buy me chips, coffee, and also assemble my models. They won't have a choice because they're be too scurred of mah Knight!

And everyone in the room will back away and make excuses to leave.

They won't be able to - my Knight will be guarding the doors and will viciously murder anyone who tries to leave without my express written consent. Seriously, they're so scared of the thing, they'll definitely have to obey.

 TedNugent wrote:
This thing is a disaster for Orks.

Heh. Necron Monolith - Av14 all around and can auto-kill anything (regardless of toughness and wounds) that comes within assault range. Even before the update, going against a triple monolith list was an automatic loss for my orks unless I drowned them in deffrollas. We are lucky they're a rare sight now.

There are quite a lot of things in 40k that are "a disaster for orks", remaining stuck with a 4th ed. codex being one of them.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

danp164 wrote:
"Can you please not use that as I Cannot afford to buy/proxy a model capable of dealing with it and it would render the game unbalanced and therefore pointless"

This is arguably acceptable

How so?

Because it is saying "in the interest of having a fair and enjoyable game, would you mind not using that as I don't have anything that can deal with it" which is a fairly reasonable request and will likely mean both players have a more challenging and enjoyable game.

Sounds to me like the people your describing are in the wrong hobby. 40k ant cheap and if you have the money to buy these legal models and legal armies, nobody regardless of their economic standing (lol) has a valid reason to say no.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And they'll tell you to shove it where the sun don't shine. Bluster all you like, other players are not obliged to play against you in a friendly setting. If they don't want to play against a Superheavy in a normal game of 40K, they don't have to play with you.

Go play at a tournament if you want captive opponents.

Sure, and I'm not obliged to play against ork players in a normal game of 40K, either.

Because an IK army is just as "standard" in a "normal" game of 40K as an ork army is. Word of God (GW) says so.

So sure. If I put my knights on the table and some beta says that they refuse to play me, that's their right, so long as they admit that the grounds for their refusal isn't any different from the justification for refusing to play an IG player, or a Space Marine player, or a player of any other standard 40K army using standard 40K units.

- - - - - - -

Anyway, RE: the Knight OP argument. It's only AV13, and you only need one penetrating hit and a decent roll to pop it. I wouldn't call the Knight OP anymore than I'd call a Land Raider OP, especially for its cost.

I have never won a game of 40k (I usualy only play annihilation) if some one brought in a knight, I would lose, but I would still play.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

danp164 wrote:
"Can you please not use that as I Cannot afford to buy/proxy a model capable of dealing with it and it would render the game unbalanced and therefore pointless"

This is arguably acceptable

How so?

Because it is saying "in the interest of having a fair and enjoyable game, would you mind not using that as I don't have anything that can deal with it" which is a fairly reasonable request and will likely mean both players have a more challenging and enjoyable game.

Sounds to me like the people your describing are in the wrong hobby. 40k ant cheap and if you have the money to buy these legal models and legal armies, nobody regardless of their economic standing (lol) has a valid reason to say no.

So 40k should be pay to win?

Some people may be able to afford to buy some models but not every new model out there. I don't think its unreasonable to come to an arrangement with your opponent where you both have a reasonable choice of winning. Whats the point of playing a game where the outcome is decided before the first model is moved?

Anyone has a valid reason to say no to whatever the hell they want if them not saying no will certainly lead to them not enjoying the game, why would someone waste several hours of time playing a match they wont enjoy? They are not obliged to play you any more than you are obliged to agree to their request.

Personally I think the people in the OP should at least play against the thing before writing it off. Surely it would be fun to at least see what it can do.

 carlos13th wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

danp164 wrote:
"Can you please not use that as I Cannot afford to buy/proxy a model capable of dealing with it and it would render the game unbalanced and therefore pointless"

This is arguably acceptable

How so?

Because it is saying "in the interest of having a fair and enjoyable game, would you mind not using that as I don't have anything that can deal with it" which is a fairly reasonable request and will likely mean both players have a more challenging and enjoyable game.

Sounds to me like the people your describing are in the wrong hobby. 40k ant cheap and if you have the money to buy these legal models and legal armies, nobody regardless of their economic standing (lol) has a valid reason to say no.

So 40k should be pay to win?

Welcome to planet earth where he who has the most money wins!

Enjoy your stay

That and I thought winning wasn't important to the casual/economically challenged crowd? If wining does indeed matter then step your game up, work overtime, save money to buy a counter to that. Or if winning isn't important to the same crowd, then take your losses like a man.

Really the Knights are scary but perfectly reasonable to take out for all but two armies, Orks and Nids. Orks just can't deal with that kind of armor easily and Tyranids best option is to tar pit it, which is easier said than done when it has a 12" move and 2 battle cannons to eliminate swarms. A brood of carnifex can do some nice damage to it on the charge but..will likely die in the ensuing combat.

If I were playing my sisters, or chaos, or any of my other armies I would be interested in playing a game against the Knights. If I went into my FLGS with my Nids and someone wanted to play me with their Knight, I would kindly suggest they play a different player, if they were the only potential opponent I MIGHT consider it but more than likely I would just head home rather than waste the next two hours being tabled.

Isn't the basic principle of this game based on fighting other peoples' cool models with your own cool models? Why are people whining about dealing with an AV13 model that you can draw LOS to from anywhere on the board? Do people refuse to play against Soul Grinders too? Or...all Necron vehicles? It's two Leman Russes taped together for three times the price and you can tie it up all day in melee, oh noes!

Edited by AgeOfEgos--this really doesn't further the discussion.

The only reasonable excuse I can make for the whining is that its a defensive mechanism developed from getting brutalized by some of the previous giant robot kits, and seeing another big stompy thing on the table just triggers a psychotic breakdown.

I am running skyblight Nids w/ 4 Harpies and 2 Crones. I wouldn't mind seeing a Knight. As a matter of fact I hope to see them.

Nids FMC do a number on knights with ease and a brood of fexes should wreck it with ease though will loose a fex in the process. Orks mega nobs just destroy it on the charge... Much like most vehicles


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

For the record, no - it does not use escalation at all as it is not a lord of war. Like every codex it has the full army specific rules included in the codex. These bare a striking similarity to escalation in places but do not follow them completely

Honestly, talk to the other player about it. Communication is key to successful gaming. Be courteous but tell them in no uncertain terms what your problem is. At a minimum both sides will know where one another stand.

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

Errrrrrrrr.

6 wounds. It's 6 hull points. Not 9.

Not saying it's on par with a Riptide, but it is on par with 2. You can also take cover saves against any weaponry either knight is packing, while all a Riptide has to do to blow apart anything you've got is have some other squad get at least 2 markerlights on it.

TLDR I think riptides compare quite favorably to knights. Both shrug off small arms fire, Riptides have better saving throws against anything not AP2 or better and is actually harder to wound if it takes Feel No Pain than it is to make a hull point damage stick on to a Knight.

@BrianDavion: Cheaper? A Stompa is 770 points, man. An errant would love to go up against a Stompa because there's a good chance it kills the Stompa if it shoots it's melta blast at it then also charges it in combat. It'd probably be mutually assured destruction, but I'll sack 370 points to blow up 770 any day.


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 Badablack wrote:
Isn't the basic principle of this game based on fighting other peoples' cool models with your own cool models? Why are people whining about dealing with an AV13 model that you can draw LOS to from anywhere on the board? Do people refuse to play against Soul Grinders too? Or...all Necron vehicles? It's two Leman Russes taped together for three times the price and you can tie it up all day in melee, oh noes!

It's like a circle of morose angry little men with their hands over their ears screaming red-faced at anyone who brings something new to the table.

The only reasonable excuse I can make for the whining is that its a defensive mechanism developed from getting brutalized by some of the previous giant robot kits, and seeing another big stompy thing on the table just triggers a psychotic breakdown.

Have an exalt. This, exactly.

I got tired of fielding my Dark Angels army because I got stomped every game by daemon princes, heldrakes, riptides, wave serpents and Wraithknights. Now I've got a way to combat those somewhat if I ally in a Knight, which I fully plan on doing. For me, it finally evens the odds a tiny bit.

I got tired of fielding my Dark Angels army because I got stomped every game by daemon princes, heldrakes, riptides, wave serpents and Wraithknights. Now I've got a way to combat those somewhat if I ally in a Knight, which I fully plan on doing. For me, it finally evens the odds a tiny bit.

Exactly my thought. The IK will even the odds a bit. A conventional SM force will benefit from such a model.

I meant cheaper as in dollar cost. the stompa costs about 130 bucks vs the knights 170.

I agree point for point the knight is better but...

 Badablack wrote:
Isn't the basic principle of this game based on fighting other peoples' cool models with your own cool models? Why are people whining about dealing with an AV13 model that you can draw LOS to from anywhere on the board? Do people refuse to play against Soul Grinders too? Or...all Necron vehicles? It's two Leman Russes taped together for three times the price and you can tie it up all day in melee, oh noes!
.

Utterly untrue. It helps if you read the actual rules.

For instance, the stomp rules. You can't "tie this thing up all day in melee." You are in for a rude awakening.

Or the fact that it ignores all damage table results on successful penetrations, and only takes D3 hull points on an "explodes" result. Or the fact that it has a directional 4+ invulnerable save against shooting.

It's melee weapon ignores all invulnerable and armor saves and inflicts instant death or auto-pen on I4, which means any close-combat anti-tank is not an option, including walkers, Monstrous Creatures, Nobz, Warbosses and Terminator Squads. It's stomp removes all models on a 6+, and subsequent to death it leaves a blast template crater just to finish the job.

By contrast, no one would be confused as far as how you take out a Leman Russ battle tank in close combat. You simply assault it with a Power Fist.

These people are doing you a favour by refusing to play you. They are seemingly only interested in their own enjoyment (through the shallow ego boost of a loaded dice game) and expect their 'friends' to make compromises while making no concessions themselves.

I hope you can find other players to have fun with in the mean time.

 randomtoaster wrote:
So in no uncertain terms, i've been told by many players in my local club, they'll refuse to play me if I bring my Knight titan. Played this Tau guy, play him most weeks and generally he'll win (general camping Tau tactics, smart missiles, marker lights, riptides etc.) this time I tore him apart with my Storm Raven/IK combo, now hes saying he won't play me again. Now everytime I get tabled by him (it's not hard when i'm running a 12 model list...) I don't moan, I just take it in my stride, I don't care it's all fun. However, since he played something he didn't know how to deal with right away, he's gonna refuse any games from now on.
This other guy too, who brings stuff from stronghold assault without even asking his opponent (i know its part of 40k now, but its common courtesy) says he won't play me either. Yet, he is one of the most try hard WAAC players, he's the most irritant person to play against, however he's a challenge.

I can understand the worry of coming up against a super heavy with D strength weapons, but really it's not invincible in the slightest. You won't know how to take it down, unless you've come across one. Has anyone else had this problem so far?

Just tell him this "Okay, Since you veto'd one of my units, I get to Veto one of yours..."

See how long he is willing to not let you take the Knight in a game.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Just tell him this "Okay, Since you veto'd one of my units, I get to Veto one of yours..."

See how long he is willing to not let you take the Knight in a game.

Sounds fair. I think we'd have an improved game if this were standard procedure.

 randomtoaster wrote:
So in no uncertain terms, i've been told by many players in my local club, they'll refuse to play me if I bring my Knight titan. Played this Tau guy, play him most weeks and generally he'll win (general camping Tau tactics, smart missiles, marker lights, riptides etc.) this time I tore him apart with my Storm Raven/IK combo, now hes saying he won't play me again. Now everytime I get tabled by him (it's not hard when i'm running a 12 model list...) I don't moan, I just take it in my stride, I don't care it's all fun. However, since he played something he didn't know how to deal with right away, he's gonna refuse any games from now on.
This other guy too, who brings stuff from stronghold assault without even asking his opponent (i know its part of 40k now, but its common courtesy) says he won't play me either. Yet, he is one of the most try hard WAAC players, he's the most irritant person to play against, however he's a challenge.

I can understand the worry of coming up against a super heavy with D strength weapons, but really it's not invincible in the slightest. You won't know how to take it down, unless you've come across one. Has anyone else had this problem so far?

Tell him to git gud.

On a serious note, if he's honestly fielding a competitive tau list and he's not prepared to adjust his army to take down armor then he doesn't sound like a fun player to go against competitive or otherwise. They're really not that hard to kill even if Tau struggle against heavy armor, but this is armor 13/12 and costs a significant amount of points. Deadly? Yes. Hard to counter / kill? Hardly.


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 TedNugent wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Just tell him this "Okay, Since you veto'd one of my units, I get to Veto one of yours..."

See how long he is willing to not let you take the Knight in a game.

Sounds fair. I think we'd have an improved game if this were standard procedure.

I've thought about trying some games with my friends with unit bans. Where each player gets 2 units bans that aren't FOC compulsory. Not sure how it would play really, but the idea of being able to meta strategy your opponent is interesting. Even though the majority of players think that meta gameplay is a bad thing.

If I was playing Tau I would see the IK as a legitimate challenge. There is so much high strength shooting in that Codex that it'd be pointless to complain. The only thing different you'd have to do is check your unit spacing to give him small targets for blast templates and assaults and maybe add a meltagun unit.

I would play against an IK if I was playing Tau. It could be fun.

 Massaen wrote:
Nids FMC do a number on knights with ease and a brood of fexes should wreck it with ease though will loose a fex in the process. Orks mega nobs just destroy it on the charge... Much like most vehicles

If you're lucky you'll only lose a fex. If you're unlucky, you'll lose all the fexes and not kill it.

Then once it dies, it explodes with catastrophic damage. Even the lowest form of catastrophic damage is a Strength D hit to all things within 2.5", so there goes the other fexes.

Basically, with nids, you have a chance to kill it with 3 fexes, however you have a chance it will kill all of them in the process, so you spent 360pts with of Carnies to kill a 375pt model which probably already wiped out a couple of hundred points with shooting before you ever got near it... if you ever do get near it given it moves 12".


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I think people need to get in to the habit of swapping armies. A few of my friends used to complain my army was overpowered all the time, so I started swapping armies with them and proving they could win as well.

As someone who has used Super Heavies alot recently I can tell you they're not much more durable then you think if you factor in 6's on pen, easy to do with melta. Although I've always had bad luck with enemies getting 6's on Pens I still think it's a valid observation.

Anecdotally I've had a HellHammer blow up in the first turn from LC Devastators with tank hunters, re-rolls to hit, and ignores cover.

The best thing to utilize against it with Tyranids is probably a hive crone. S8 vector strikes against armor 12 is pretty solid and it's in the movement phase so he won't be getting that 4++ save. Only having 24" flying is the issue. Still, the Paladin only has 6 shots against flyers and it's all snap fires, so the likelyhood of it even causing a grounded check is sub-once a turn even on a Seneschal. It's haywire missiles for turns you're just out of range will cause some damage, too.

They are going to change up the meta, which is good. For a casual FLGS group like we've got here in my neck of the woods, though, they are going to be a big issue. Luckily we're of the collective mind the best games to play are the ones where both armies are evenly matched and there's a lot of communication that goes on between all the players both while we're at the store and through social media websites. We've got a few more hardcore players that are chomping at the bits to kill Knights, and several guys in it more for the hobby/modeling aspect who have no desire to ever face one.

The Tau player is seeing the end of point-delete tactics, it has nothing to do with you. If someone refuses to play against your knights, kindly ask if it's ok to limit their army. I had someone tell me they wouldn't play me if I used three drakes (I don't do this in friendly games, anyways), so the next time I see him I'll tell him I won't play against him if he uses wraithknights/riptides etc.

 randomtoaster wrote:
So in no uncertain terms, i've been told by many players in my local club, they'll refuse to play me if I bring my Knight titan. Played this Tau guy, play him most weeks and generally he'll win (general camping Tau tactics, smart missiles, marker lights, riptides etc.) this time I tore him apart with my Storm Raven/IK combo, now hes saying he won't play me again. Now everytime I get tabled by him (it's not hard when i'm running a 12 model list...) I don't moan, I just take it in my stride, I don't care it's all fun. However, since he played something he didn't know how to deal with right away, he's gonna refuse any games from now on.
This other guy too, who brings stuff from stronghold assault without even asking his opponent (i know its part of 40k now, but its common courtesy) says he won't play me either. Yet, he is one of the most try hard WAAC players, he's the most irritant person to play against, however he's a challenge.

I can understand the worry of coming up against a super heavy with D strength weapons, but really it's not invincible in the slightest. You won't know how to take it down, unless you've come across one. Has anyone else had this problem so far?

He's just a sore loser, and he needs to get into the arms race, and upgrade his army to have a Knight killer. IMO

Let's hope the Orks get some way to deal with Knights in their new codex aside from bringing a Stompa. I haven't played against one yet but the typical strategy of "Charge it with power klaws" seems like suicide.

It takes approx 24 power claw attacks on the charge to down a knight by glancing it to death... So 6 mega nobs... 8 to be safe (as you will loose a couple to the knight before you swing)

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Then I'll declare myself the best 40k player in the store and have everyone else buy me chips, coffee, and also assemble my models. They won't have a choice because they're be too scurred of mah Knight!

And everyone in the room will back away and make excuses to leave.

They won't be able to - my Knight will be guarding the doors and will viciously murder anyone who tries to leave without my express written consent. Seriously, they're so scared of the thing, they'll definitely have to obey.

And this is the point at which I back away and make excuses to leave...


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 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And they'll tell you to shove it where the sun don't shine. Bluster all you like, other players are not obliged to play against you in a friendly setting. If they don't want to play against a Superheavy in a normal game of 40K, they don't have to play with you.

Go play at a tournament if you want captive opponents.

Sure, and I'm not obliged to play against ork players in a normal game of 40K, either.

Because an IK army is just as "standard" in a "normal" game of 40K as an ork army is. Word of God (GW) says so.

Ah. I see the problem here.

I'm Atheist.

So sure. If I put my knights on the table and some beta says that they refuse to play me, that's their right, so long as they admit that the grounds for their refusal isn't any different from the justification for refusing to play an IG player, or a Space Marine player, or a player of any other standard 40K army using standard 40K units.

True. Its still their choice and you can't take that choice away from them, however petty you may think their reasoning to be. This is why its important to have a well written, well balanced game. If it was balanced, fewer people would be so upset and feel that certain armies are unfair and overpowered.

This really is GW's fault for writing a pile of crap, not the customers who complain about the pile of crap.

- - - - - - -

Anyway, RE: the Knight OP argument. It's only AV13, and you only need one penetrating hit and a decent roll to pop it. I wouldn't call the Knight OP anymore than I'd call a Land Raider OP, especially for its cost.

Perhaps not. I havn't played in a long time, and havn't seen the Knight rules first hand, but my arguments about Superheavies apply to Superheavies in general. Baneblades, Warhounds, Revenants. I don't want to play with Superheavies in a normal, 1500 pt game. I doubt they'll be fun to play against at such low points, so why should I? I'm not looking forward to returning to the game if I can expect to face Superheavies in a normal game.

 cvtuttle wrote:
Find a more mature group of players who have learned that sometimes you get to be the cops and they can be the robbers and then sometimes you will be the robbers and they can be the cops.

I learned this when I was 6.

This man always bring a voice of reason , a shame if you put on the shelve your knight, the problem isnt the model, the problem are the players, as the man say, sometime you have to run but somtimes someone have to run from you, if they didnt undertand that then find new friends (mature ones) or even a new store were to play, sad but true .

 SRSFACE wrote:
The best thing to utilize against it with Tyranids is probably a hive crone. S8 vector strikes against armor 12 is pretty solid and it's in the movement phase so he won't be getting that 4++ save..

He still gets the 4++ save. The problem is he has to declare a specific side, and we have no idea which side Vector Strikes hit on.

Said this at the start of all the hype when rules were leaked, and ill say it again.
Knights really are not hard to bring down.

Its simply people whining about them before actually facing one.
My 1st game was against a pair of them allied to a guard army and the guard actually did more damage than the knights did.

By turn 5 both of them were a smoking crater on the field, one of which was like it at the end of turn 2.

I would go as far as to say that knights really dont even belong in a tournament enviroment, they really are poor compared to other options.

I think its just a case of people having to actually play against one or see it happen, and they will see just how easy it is to bring down.

Take a monolith for example.
AV14 all round, plenty of hull points, and just over half the cos of a knight.
More armies will struggle to kill this than a knight.



And to the guy that said sisters, DE and orks will struggle;

DE will roll through a knight in a turn or 2.
A trio of ravagers really will give the knight a headache.

Sisters carry enough melta to scare pretty much anything on the board, superheavy or not.

Orks on the other hand, they struggle with armour anyway, so your simply raising a point that has been raised time and time again.
If orks ever want to hunt armour, invest in deff rollers and smash through them.
Either way, orks have struggled with armour for a long time, and are in need of an update IMO.

This whole "i wont play dat!!!!" attitude is starting to get really childish.

Just enjoy the game and man up. Unbelievable how whiny people get over toy soldiers.

 randomtoaster wrote:
So in no uncertain terms, i've been told by many players in my local club, they'll refuse to play me if I bring my Knight titan. Played this Tau guy, play him most weeks and generally he'll win (general camping Tau tactics, smart missiles, marker lights, riptides etc.) this time I tore him apart with my Storm Raven/IK combo, now hes saying he won't play me again. Now everytime I get tabled by him (it's not hard when i'm running a 12 model list...) I don't moan, I just take it in my stride, I don't care it's all fun. However, since he played something he didn't know how to deal with right away, he's gonna refuse any games from now on.
This other guy too, who brings stuff from stronghold assault without even asking his opponent (i know its part of 40k now, but its common courtesy) says he won't play me either. Yet, he is one of the most try hard WAAC players, he's the most irritant person to play against, however he's a challenge.

I can understand the worry of coming up against a super heavy with D strength weapons, but really it's not invincible in the slightest. You won't know how to take it down, unless you've come across one. Has anyone else had this problem so far?

Your clubmates sound like a bunch of bitches. Knights aren't the bogey men people think they are, they put out less firepower than a regular guard parking lot army and those scary strength D chainswords? whoop-di-do, they can't even stand up to flyers!

I reckon you should tell your club to sack up and get over it(especially tau guy), it's not the end of the world.

(heh, double click to quick edit? amazing)

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Anyway, RE: the Knight OP argument. It's only AV13, and you only need one penetrating hit and a decent roll to pop it. I wouldn't call the Knight OP anymore than I'd call a Land Raider OP, especially for its cost.

How did I miss this?

That's not how super heavies work. "One penetrating hit" at best does 4 hull points out of it's 6. You need a 6 on your initial penetrating hit roll, and then another 5 or 6 on the "additional D3 hull points" it loses. Even with AP1 weaponry, taking down more than 2 or 3 hull points in a single penetrating hit won't happen often.

And you're not factoring in the 4++ invulnerable save. These things are significantly harder to kill than Land Raiders. Superheavies are no joke.

Honestly the race I see having the easiest time with it is Necron. Spam enough Gauss weapons and any vehicle goes down like a chump. That's about it, though. Eldar don't run enough stuff in the typical best lists to even hurt it til they bring a revenant titan. Thing is that revenant titan is about 2 and a half knights in cost. Easily worth it, but just saying. Without one, Eldar tend to just be spamming a bunch of S6 weaponry which isn't going to scratch the thing.

Lascannon devastator builds might make a comeback. Terminator squads with a bunch of chainfists would probably fair well against one, as at worst you're losing 3 guys to the D weapon and you'd get your 2+ armor against the stomps. You'd just have to pray it scattered away when it blows up so your guys were out of the D blast range.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Someone who refuses to play a knight titan has absolutely no valid reason for refusal other than they just don't want to play against that particular unit. It's exactly the same as refusing to play against Riptides because you think they are overpowered. That generally isn't considered acceptable, so why is refusing to play against a knight?

Knights are very obviously NOT Escalation despite some people's tendency to bury their heads in the sand.

We can all see the way GW is going with superheavies so what's the point in trying to resist? Jump on board and start having fun.

If it has a D weapon it's Escalation/Apocalypse, there's no denying, so it's fair IMO to not want to play with it.

However it if is in an official codex, and Knight Titans are now, then it's a core 40K option, so it's not fair IMO to not want to play with it.

This is a mess that GW have got the rules in.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The best thing to utilize against it with Tyranids is probably a hive crone. S8 vector strikes against armor 12 is pretty solid and it's in the movement phase so he won't be getting that 4++ save. Only having 24" flying is the issue. Still, the Paladin only has 6 shots against flyers and it's all snap fires, so the likelyhood of it even causing a grounded check is sub-once a turn even on a Seneschal. It's haywire missiles for turns you're just out of range will cause some damage, too.

I hadn't really considered the Crone to be honest! That is an interesting option to take on the Knight, but it will still be a tough task.

If I'm not mistaken, the Crone has to reposition itself after each strike, as it can only turn 90 degrees before it swoops and that's it?

So you swoop and strike one turn, then either spend the next turn not swooping to turn around (risking getting blown away as anything and everything can now easily hit you) or spend a couple of turns either swooping around in a circle or swooping off the table and coming back on.

And while the Paladin isn't likely to hurt a Crone, realistically I think in any army that is remotely competitive you won't see Knights by themselves, they'll be allied to another army which potentially has AA.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

True. Its still their choice and you can't take that choice away from them, however petty you may think their reasoning to be. This is why its important to have a well written, well balanced game. If it was balanced, fewer people would be so upset and feel that certain armies are unfair and overpowered.

This really is GW's fault for writing a pile of crap, not the customers who complain about the pile of crap.

If I want balanced ill play chess.

You may want to consider playing that game if balance is what you care about most.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

True. Its still their choice and you can't take that choice away from them, however petty you may think their reasoning to be. This is why its important to have a well written, well balanced game. If it was balanced, fewer people would be so upset and feel that certain armies are unfair and overpowered.

This really is GW's fault for writing a pile of crap, not the customers who complain about the pile of crap.

If I want balanced ill play chess.

You may want to consider playing that game if balance is what you care about most.

Yes, god forbid people want rules that have some thought beyond "This will look cool, and we can charge a lot as well!"

Given that we have Eldar Wraith Knights, and cheese like Wave Serpents, Seer Council and Rip tides - I can't see the issue....

Its a new 40K codex - people banning the Imperial Knight and not the Chesse / problem units above are being very hypocrictical IMO.

I will be playing with mine in the next local club tournament after having checking twith the TO and other players.

SRSFACE - If the knight is getting a 4++ then it means you are shooting the wrong armour facing.
Why on earth would you aim at a single facing covered by the shield, when its easy enough to hit 2 others that arent covered?

And no, its not a great deal harder to kill than a land raider is.
Yes, it has 2 more HP, but it also has lower AV aswell, meaning alot more shots from lower strength weapons will get through compared to firing mass S9+ at it.

Points wise, you can also take 2 riptides for the same cost (and nearly money wise too!)
In which case, i rather be facing a knight over a pair of riptides as their damage potential and ability to get out the way (not to mention range) makes them far more destructive on the field.
Also, dropping them in 2-3 shots isnt possible either.

There seems to be this craze of "OMG! its OP!" every time something new comes out.
40k has changed alot, and will continue to do so.
People cant keep running the same stock lists and hope to win all the time, you need to adapt.

Granted, daemons and nids get the short end of the stick here since they rely on MC's in combat to take down alot of armour, and being hit by a D weapon really is no fun.
Both thirsters and tyrants fall just as easily to it.
However, you can both make use of flyers, something a knight cant do, let alone hurt.



Ive killed a pair of knights fairly easy with my necrons, but that was due to sheer volume of gauss fire and a bit of haywire for good measure.
That is however the strongest anti-armour method for necrons really.

Some armies lack the ability to take them out easily, but all have something in the list that can damage them.


On the plus side, ive seen this as a good chance to bring back by eldar wraith army since they have been sat collecting dust.
10 S10 AP2 shots per unit will more than likely kill a knight in a single turn.

So i'd be more than happy to face a full knight list with my eldar.
However, much like facing draigo/logan/death wing, it would be a great match up for me.
Small elite armies fall easily to a hard counter.


I do however see guard bringing vendettas in the masses now more so than usual.
The potential they have for bringing down a knight with no harm in return really isnt matched.

Only other army that could be amusing against full knight would be cron air.
4+ min units of warriors in night scythes, 3 doom scythes and a few other units for added cheese.

S7 weapons on basic can glance front or pen the sides, and since they average 4 hits each, thats pretty damn good.
Not to mention S10 AP1 death rays cutting through them.

And this isnt really a rare army to see either, its pretty commonly used.
And more to the point, the knights cant hurt it with anything.
They have to sit there and take the punishment.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

True. Its still their choice and you can't take that choice away from them, however petty you may think their reasoning to be. This is why its important to have a well written, well balanced game. If it was balanced, fewer people would be so upset and feel that certain armies are unfair and overpowered.

This really is GW's fault for writing a pile of crap, not the customers who complain about the pile of crap.

If I want balanced ill play chess.

You may want to consider playing that game if balance is what you care about most.

Yes, god forbid people want rules that have some thought beyond "This will look cool, and we can charge a lot as well!"

The knight model in chess looks cool and it can move in a L shape.

Don't even go there bro.

 Jackal wrote:
SRSFACE - If the knight is getting a 4++ then it means you are shooting the wrong armour facing.
Why on earth would you aim at a single facing covered by the shield, when its easy enough to hit 2 others that arent covered?

You look at the dimensions for the Knight? It's front facing is *huge*. Go look at how you determine which armor your hitting on page 73. At best, you'll have like one squad hitting it from another angle, and chances are it won't be the squad that has the best chance of hurting it. Also, THEY GET TO PICK WHICH SHIELD FACING THEY GET ON YOUR TURN. You *have* to fire at it with multiple units in order to avoid the 4++. You can't NOT aim for the "single facing covered by the shield" unless you managed to get two squads flanking it.

And no, its not a great deal harder to kill than a land raider is.
Yes, it has 2 more HP, but it also has lower AV aswell, meaning alot more shots from lower strength weapons will get through compared to firing mass S9+ at it.

Land Raiders suffer massive penalties for every penetrating hit they take. Super-Heavy walkers only take a few extra hull points of damage on a 6. To reiterate, something that guarantees instant-kills a land raider at best does 2/3rds of the hull points to a Knight.

Also, AV13 and 14 aren't that different, compared to 12 and 13. You're going to shoot the same weaponry at it. True, it can be glanced by plasma. Also true, shooting your S7 weaponry at something with the hope to glance instead of killing the things S7 AP2 is designed to kill is a bad idea and I'd be happy you did so against my knight.

I'm not saying you can't kill them, but it is a lot harder than it is to kill a land raider. I frequently insta-gib land raiders with multi-melta attack bikes. You can't really do that to a knight.

Apart from its front it has the same armour as Cheese Serpents who of course have their S7 TL gun..............

Its a lot of points in one model

You look at the dimensions for the Knight? It's front facing is *huge*. Go look at how you determine which armor your hitting on page 73. At best, you'll have like one squad hitting it from another angle, and chances are it won't be the squad that has the best chance of hurting it. Also, THEY GET TO PICK WHICH SHIELD FACING THEY GET ON YOUR TURN. You *have* to fire at it with multiple units in order to avoid the 4++. You can't NOT aim for the "single facing covered by the shield" unless you managed to get two squads flanking it.

If your dumb enough to have all of your anti armour in the same area then again, you have made a mistake.
Yes, i know the size and the rules for them, because i have one sat on the shelf infront of me, along with the codex.

Im sorry, but your entire complaint here is based on poor tactics and dumb deployment, what do you really expect to do with this?



You tactics seems flawed here.
A tesla destructor as i said is not plasma.
Yes, S7 can glance the front, it does however pen the side armour too, which for a flyer, isnt hard to do.
Now, you get 4 shots with each tesla destructore, which over 6 vehicles gives you 24 shots, which average 24 hits because of the rules.
Thats 4 glances and 4 pens straight away.
Its dead.

AV13 and AV14 are actually very different and one of the largest gaps in armour.
Mainly due to AV14 also having similar armour on its sides too.
The current meta has shifted from melta to plasma spam, which means land raiders dont get scratched by it.

So glancing vehicles to death isnt a good way to do it?
Please read a necron tactica or anything that mentions haywire and get back to me eh?

You also cant 1 shot a riptide with a multi-melta, whats your point?



Anyone can say X units can kill Y unit, but that still gives no bearing in game.
If you think glancing something to death is unreliable, why trust attack bikes? lol, seems even more flawed to me.





All in all, they are stupidly heavy on points (70 more than a kitted out wraithknight!) and really dont do alot to earn the points back.
They are more area denial like swarmlord is.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

danp164 wrote:
"Can you please not use that as I Cannot afford to buy/proxy a model capable of dealing with it and it would render the game unbalanced and therefore pointless"

This is arguably acceptable

How so?

Because it is saying "in the interest of having a fair and enjoyable game, would you mind not using that as I don't have anything that can deal with it" which is a fairly reasonable request and will likely mean both players have a more challenging and enjoyable game.

Sounds to me like the people your describing are in the wrong hobby. 40k ant cheap and if you have the money to buy these legal models and legal armies, nobody regardless of their economic standing (lol) has a valid reason to say no.

So 40k should be pay to win?

Welcome to planet earth where he who has the most money wins!

Enjoy your stay

That and I thought winning wasn't important to the casual/economically challenged crowd? If wining does indeed matter then step your game up, work overtime, save money to buy a counter to that. Or if winning isn't important to the same crowd, then take your losses like a man.

Personally I would just rather not play with someone who has your attitude.

I don't care about winning. I Would however like to play a game that's decided by how a person plays not what they have payed for. It's meant to be a wargame not a purchasing stuff simulator.

 Jackal wrote:
hurr hurr i play necrons and laugh at armor.

This is essentially your argument, smug laughter and all.

Frankly, it's annoying. All Necron players do it, and trust me when I say the rest of us get it. It doesn't help our armies, though.

Marines: You've got Melta Guns, Lascannons and Plasma guns. Minimum, that means you've got 10 points worth of gun on a 14 point body, and even then that guy needs to be stupidly close to get a hit in. So let's go ahead and say Lascannons on Devastator squads. Wait, they can't move and shoot so it's really easy for the Knight to get proper facing. Plus, the Paladin outranges them.

Bunch of Storm Talons? Yeah that could work. You've got the mobility and flyers in general are good against it. Probably your best options for Space Marines outside of fielding your own Knight. If they have an allied detachment with a ADL and either gun variant, you can kiss at least one of them goodbye when it arrives, though, because it's pretty easy to position your knight in such a way their flyers would be in sight and in range of your ADL gun. Plus, "when it arrives" isn't always turn 2 and even then, it's still not on the table to attempt to kill their big bad on turn 1.

Eldar: Serpent Shields can glance it, and it's a mobile enough base to zoom to the sides where the Scatterlasers can glance. Thing is, if you DON'T roll a lot of 6s, the shields are down and either Knight variant will blow it up. Crimson Hunters are mobile enough and with vector dancer can bright lance it to death. I like the option, but again, ADL gun and having to wait until minimum turn 2 so it's going to get in shooting.

-----------

Another thing: it's like you pretend people playing Knights also can't utilize deployment and terrain to keep it relatively safe. The Paladin has 60" range. Park it in the corner on a 4x6 map and it still has range to pretty much everything, with that armor 13 still in the front. Claiming someone has "bad tactics" while also assuming your superior tactics are going against "bad tactics" is a strawman argument. Theory away. I'm going to attempt to keep my opinions grounded in factual reality of what actually happens on the game state.

Also, welcome to my growing ignore list. There's no reason for you to call me stupid with what I've said. Be civil.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
The best thing to utilize against it with Tyranids is probably a hive crone. S8 vector strikes against armor 12 is pretty solid and it's in the movement phase so he won't be getting that 4++ save. Only having 24" flying is the issue. Still, the Paladin only has 6 shots against flyers and it's all snap fires, so the likelyhood of it even causing a grounded check is sub-once a turn even on a Seneschal. It's haywire missiles for turns you're just out of range will cause some damage, too.

I hadn't really considered the Crone to be honest! That is an interesting option to take on the Knight, but it will still be a tough task.

If I'm not mistaken, the Crone has to reposition itself after each strike, as it can only turn 90 degrees before it swoops and that's it?

So you swoop and strike one turn, then either spend the next turn not swooping to turn around (risking getting blown away as anything and everything can now easily hit you) or spend a couple of turns either swooping around in a circle or swooping off the table and coming back on.

And while the Paladin isn't likely to hurt a Crone, realistically I think in any army that is remotely competitive you won't see Knights by themselves, they'll be allied to another army which potentially has AA.

FMCs are not restricted to 90 degree turning like Flyers. So a Crone can hit it every turn with VS as long as it is alive...the problem with this is that Crones are incredibly squishy and can be grounded super fast with small arms fire and if it is in range to VS the Knight, it is in range to be assaulted by the Knight. I think the Crone IS the best option for Tyranids but that really isn't saying much at all, it is still a bad choice for it. It's not like it is 3 Crones vs the Knight, it is the Tyranids vs the Knight + What ever other army they are playing and most people take some form of Sky Fire and that will shred the Crones quickly.

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

Solution to Knigths with a front armor of 13... Lasscannons.... Railguns...... melta weapons... lance weapons..... ect.... do I need to go on? yes it has a 4++ save, but it can only use that on one side of it's armor a turn. So if they charge the front aim for the side or the rear.. Knights are not immortal you just have to change your attack plan.

I called your deployment stupid for putting all of your anti armour in 1 place, and not spread to the flanks.
Didnt actually call you stupid, however, your quote makes it quite clear for me


Now, if you bother to read or check, i dont just play necrons.
I do play them, and have done since the release of the 1st plastic kit of warriors.
However, ontop of that i also play nids, daemons (mono khorne and tzeentch) eldar, and i do have some tau for a small project.
Not to mention a few 1k armies for some variety and as allies.

So no, i wasnt being smug about playing necrons, and if you bothered to read half of what i wrote, you might have been a bit more clued up as to what i was saying.

Instead you chose to be selective in what you read.
I think so far ive actually posted viable ways to bring it down with most 40k armies now. (minus GK, who i dont play and know fairly little about)


So with marines, your theory is melta does not have enough range and devs lack mobility.
Who said anything about having to slog or drive?
Drop pods have been used effectively for killing alot of things that sit back.
Melta-stern have always been great for this use.

Eldar: Why are you assuming that only scatter lasers will be fired at it?
Skyshield platform with 10 reapers (exarch with fast shot and EML)
Lances are in most lists.
Fire dragons are pretty much always the "go to guys" for taking out armour.
Wraith guard are the same as above, just throw them in a wave 1st.
Or, run the wraith knight and sit back shooting at it in return?



Utilizing terrain, with a knight.
Im sorry, have you seen an actual knight model on a table?
Im guessing your talking about area terrain, or if you want to cover it, a fortress of redemption at least.

Yes, it can deploy back and shoot, but nothing is stopping you moving forward, deep striking etc.
There are a ton of ways to close the gap.
If this was not possible, how would anyone beat tau or guard?

Both players can make use of deployment, and this includes deepstriking.


I just dont see the huge deal with an AV13 (at best) vehicle that can pop a 4++ on 1 facing with 6HP.

The knight so far isnt like anything else on the table in a regular 40k game.
Trying to use the same tactics against it as you would another vehicle/walker wont do anything, so you do need to be on your toes a bit more.

The same whining came from people when the dread knight came out, then the riptide, wraith knight, now this.
Its a never ending thing.
People bitch and whine about it until they get a few games against one, then realise it is strong, but its not a game breaker.

In all honesty, i think there was a bigger issue with the release of flyers before anything really had skyfire.

Again though, its another change in the meta that people have adapted to.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

True. Its still their choice and you can't take that choice away from them, however petty you may think their reasoning to be. This is why its important to have a well written, well balanced game. If it was balanced, fewer people would be so upset and feel that certain armies are unfair and overpowered.

This really is GW's fault for writing a pile of crap, not the customers who complain about the pile of crap.

If I want balanced ill play chess.

You may want to consider playing that game if balance is what you care about most.

Why do you bother playing with a ruleset at all then? Why not just make it up on the spot and go "pew pew pew ! you die!" instead of rolling dice and following rules. Rules give structure to a game. If those rules are poorly written and unbalanced, then its a poor game.

 randomtoaster wrote:
So in no uncertain terms, i've been told by many players in my local club, they'll refuse to play me if I bring my Knight titan. Played this Tau guy, play him most weeks and generally he'll win (general camping Tau tactics, smart missiles, marker lights, riptides etc.) this time I tore him apart with my Storm Raven/IK combo, now hes saying he won't play me again. Now everytime I get tabled by him (it's not hard when i'm running a 12 model list...) I don't moan, I just take it in my stride, I don't care it's all fun. However, since he played something he didn't know how to deal with right away, he's gonna refuse any games from now on.
This other guy too, who brings stuff from stronghold assault without even asking his opponent (i know its part of 40k now, but its common courtesy) says he won't play me either. Yet, he is one of the most try hard WAAC players, he's the most irritant person to play against, however he's a challenge.

I can understand the worry of coming up against a super heavy with D strength weapons, but really it's not invincible in the slightest. You won't know how to take it down, unless you've come across one. Has anyone else had this problem so far?

I seriously can't even comprehend this... just.... no. One does not simply play Tau/Stronghold and refuse a game like that.

Why are you playing with them in the first place?

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Really the Knights are scary but perfectly reasonable to take out for all but two armies, Orks and Nids. Orks just can't deal with that kind of armor easily and Tyranids best option is to tar pit it, which is easier said than done when it has a 12" move and 2 battle cannons to eliminate swarms. A brood of carnifex can do some nice damage to it on the charge but..will likely die in the ensuing combat.

If I were playing my sisters, or chaos, or any of my other armies I would be interested in playing a game against the Knights. If I went into my FLGS with my Nids and someone wanted to play me with their Knight, I would kindly suggest they play a different player, if they were the only potential opponent I MIGHT consider it but more than likely I would just head home rather than waste the next two hours being tabled.

Stupid question, so my group has a couple wanting to bring in the IK. Now, I am okay with that but I am running into one question. My CSM and IG army I know how to play it equally, however, when it comes to my chaos daemon army I have no clue (admittedly it has been several months sense I had my codex on hand. Didn't bring it to college) how to fight it. My big thing has always been CC but D weapons dissuades my MCs, most of my units can't wound it at all. My current ideas run down to Screamers and DS pink horrors. I don't want to play FMC spam or screamerstar and just want a fun fair game.

Anyways yeah that guy was being a jerk. My best answer is to just be honest about it.

Why does every post I read about knights seem to assume they will be alone on the field...and easy to deal with. I picture people with shooty armies taking a knight or 2 as a counter assault element for assaulty lists.

Daemons have 0 good ways of dealing with a knight short of trying to fly around with FMCS.

Also nice that people are all worried about the shield and say well i'll shoot another side...because it can never get cover on other facings etc.

It's a super heavy and whether they call it a codex or not (oh how standards fall when a book with one unit gets to be a codex....and that makes it ok. It is obviously a terrible money grab. The rules should be better as should all super heavy rules for use in standard games.

Breng77 wrote:

Daemons have 0 good ways of dealing with a knight short of trying to fly around with FMCS.

.

Space Wolves have 0 good ways to deal with flyers. Therefor flyers must be op too.

 StarTrotter wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Really the Knights are scary but perfectly reasonable to take out for all but two armies, Orks and Nids. Orks just can't deal with that kind of armor easily and Tyranids best option is to tar pit it, which is easier said than done when it has a 12" move and 2 battle cannons to eliminate swarms. A brood of carnifex can do some nice damage to it on the charge but..will likely die in the ensuing combat.

If I were playing my sisters, or chaos, or any of my other armies I would be interested in playing a game against the Knights. If I went into my FLGS with my Nids and someone wanted to play me with their Knight, I would kindly suggest they play a different player, if they were the only potential opponent I MIGHT consider it but more than likely I would just head home rather than waste the next two hours being tabled.

Stupid question, so my group has a couple wanting to bring in the IK. Now, I am okay with that but I am running into one question. My CSM and IG army I know how to play it equally, however, when it comes to my chaos daemon army I have no clue (admittedly it has been several months sense I had my codex on hand. Didn't bring it to college) how to fight it. My big thing has always been CC but D weapons dissuades my MCs, most of my units can't wound it at all. My current ideas run down to Screamers and DS pink horrors. I don't want to play FMC spam or screamerstar and just want a fun fair game.

Anyways yeah that guy was being a jerk. My best answer is to just be honest about it.

For Deamons your choices aren't MUCH better but you have some really decent ones. First of all, Plagueswords, they are just like Necrons in their ability to glance it to death. All you need is to get six sixes through the game with them, this ontop of FMC VC means you can get away with it better than Nids and Orks but not by much.

Also you could always take Belakor and use the Knight against your opponent. But Belakor is kinda...frowned upon as well.

I think necrons by far have it easiest when it comes to the knights.

I think if I start to regularly see them fielded in imperial armies, I'm going to buy Anrakyr the traveler now that he'll be a very viable unit. Put him in a unit of Stormteks and a veiltek and you've got a unit that can teleport to the titan's location, take control of it on a 3+, fire its weapons at his own units then destroy it with 16 haywire shots. Cue the knight explosion and hope that there's some enemy units deployed nearby to take with it.

And, with the unit being everliving, there's a chance they'll just walk off the blast. All for 325 points.

Meh, just keep them in Nightscythes and laugh while the knights look on morosely with their blast weapons.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
FMCs are not restricted to 90 degree turning like Flyers.

You might want to re-read the second bullet point under Swooping. Specifically the very first sentence of said bullet point.

Funny thing... It would be to benefit of many people if they actually played with/ against IK. Or at least learned their rules.
But...and here is the catch...they wont, because "its OP superheavy, oh jesus, its SUPERHEAVY! I CANT BEAR IT and I wont suffer its existence".

Because only what this thread produced is opinion "if my army cant one shot it without difficult maneuvers, its OP"...yeah...right... Hope new IG codex brings WS5 T5 I5 powerfist guardsmen, because if not, I will refuse to play all armies...cant smash them in CC in one assault right now! Its OP!

 Mywik wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Daemons have 0 good ways of dealing with a knight short of trying to fly around with FMCS.

.

Space Wolves have 0 good ways to deal with flyers. Therefor flyers must be op too.

Yeah because quad guns, precienced long fangs, prescienced living lightning etc.... Suck at killing flyers......you have answers and reasonable ones, daemons lack them entirely. Plague swords exist on 2 units. Plague bearers (good luck assaulting), and drones...which can assault but you'll likely lose 2-3 drones before you swing.

So 20 plague bearers lose 2-3 models, then swing back with 36 attacks assuming they charge and all can swing, which are 18 hits, which are 3 glances, then they get stomped likely killing another 4 models at least. So they take instability on a 3 or 4 and lose an average of 3 or 4 more models. So round 2 you are down to 11 plague bearers....which lose another 2, down to 9. 9 attacks hit 4.5, maybe one more glance. Now sure you can roll hot, but again how are you getting in the assault in the first place.

Drones...if you had 9, you lose an average of 2 before they swing. Then get 28 attacks back, 14 hits and 2ish glances...then get stomped and lose maybe 2 more wounds or so.. Then take instability on snake eyes and lose 5 more wounds.....

Can Demons not use Quad guns?

And that helps kill knights how?

I'm starting to get the feeling that people are becoming too whiny for their own good, I myself would love the challenge to be able to play an IK, but with my LGS closing down soon i fear i may not get the chance.

What happened to people wanting a challenge? Actually wanting to play a game that requires more than placing the models down in deployment and then just rolling dice? I think perhaps the imperial knight may be good because it will perhaps make the Tau player adapt *gasp*.

All in all I think that's a silly way to play. I play necrons and never once have fielded a unit of wraiths and the maximum Night Scythes I have fielded is 2, I prefer to play balanced lists or at least lists based on synergy and I believe that the IK, without seeing the rules, is an anti-one trick pony. Plus, I personally would love to see the spectacle of two IK engaged in CC. Fully painted, with a sprawling battle at their feet, and then they all blow up and take the entire game out. That would be a game indeed.

Maybe these players will finally realise that tactics may or may not be crucial to the game now. Perhaps the SPAM days are over? I dont really know, but I think the OP needs to find 'better' players.

One IK is not going to be a problem for a TAC list. The problem is that you're allowed to take an entire primary detachment of super heavy vehicles which is going to overwhelm any kind of realistic TAC defense.

 rednecroncryptek wrote:
What happened to people wanting a challenge? Actually wanting to play a game that requires more than placing the models down in deployment and then just rolling dice? I think perhaps the imperial knight may be good because it will perhaps make the Tau player adapt *gasp*.

Honestly, whether the concerns are right or wrong, I think you're doing many of the critics in this thread a disservice. Most aren't worried that Tau will be unable to deal with the IKs, but that it will be even more of a step back for all the non-Tau/Taudar. It's not people mostly complaining because they don't like a challenge but because they fear that the IKs make the game even more uneven and thus less of a challenge still (due to unequal sides making the game less about skill and more about army choice).

I mean obviously there are others out there how you describe as this thread was kicked off by someone facing exactly that sort of player. But I think most of the people in this thread are not like that.

I personally haven't made a judgement on this. It seems powerful for its points, but I haven't seen it in action or read enough battle reports, yet. It's 375 points, yes? For that I could load a Wave Serpent up wit six wraith guard with D-Scythes. Or have six D-Cannon Support Batteries and have change for a warlock or two, I think. Actually, with a quick bit of head-arithmetic, that's about thirty guardians with three bright lance weapons platforms or about eight Reapers plus Exarch, plus fast-shot and starshot missiles for all. Is a single IK over-powered compared to those options? Honestly, it seems a bit too good, but for me it's too early to tell.

We had this fuss over the Revenant Titan as well. But there the model costs the same as a small country so you don't see it very often, and it's also non-scoring and over twice the points. So I'm going to give it a little time to tell.

 rednecroncryptek wrote:
I'm starting to get the feeling that people are becoming too whiny for their own good, I myself would love the challenge to be able to play an IK, but with my LGS closing down soon i fear i may not get the chance.

What happened to people wanting a challenge? Actually wanting to play a game that requires more than placing the models down in deployment and then just rolling dice? I think perhaps the imperial knight may be good because it will perhaps make the Tau player adapt *gasp*.

All in all I think that's a silly way to play. I play necrons and never once have fielded a unit of wraiths and the maximum Night Scythes I have fielded is 2, I prefer to play balanced lists or at least lists based on synergy and I believe that the IK, without seeing the rules, is an anti-one trick pony. Plus, I personally would love to see the spectacle of two IK engaged in CC. Fully painted, with a sprawling battle at their feet, and then they all blow up and take the entire game out. That would be a game indeed.

Maybe these players will finally realise that tactics may or may not be crucial to the game now. Perhaps the SPAM days are over? I dont really know, but I think the OP needs to find 'better' players.

I love a good challenge, what I don't love is things that are hard counters to other things. I see knights creating a lot more one sided games...which I feel is bad.

knas ser wrote:

 rednecroncryptek wrote:
What happened to people wanting a challenge? Actually wanting to play a game that requires more than placing the models down in deployment and then just rolling dice? I think perhaps the imperial knight may be good because it will perhaps make the Tau player adapt *gasp*.

Honestly, whether the concerns are right or wrong, I think you're doing many of the critics in this thread a disservice. Most aren't worried that Tau will be unable to deal with the IKs, but that it will be even more of a step back for all the non-Tau/Taudar. It's not people mostly complaining because they don't like a challenge but because they fear that the IKs make the game even more uneven and thus less of a challenge still (due to unequal sides making the game less about skill and more about army choice).

We had this fuss over the Revenant Titan as well. But there the model costs the same as a small country so you don't see it very often, and it's also non-scoring and over twice the points. So I'm going to give it a little time to tell.

Breng77 wrote:

 rednecroncryptek wrote:
I'm starting to get the feeling that people are becoming too whiny for their own good, I myself would love the challenge to be able to play an IK, but with my LGS closing down soon i fear i may not get the chance.

What happened to people wanting a challenge? Actually wanting to play a game that requires more than placing the models down in deployment and then just rolling dice? I think perhaps the imperial knight may be good because it will perhaps make the Tau player adapt *gasp*.

All in all I think that's a silly way to play. I play necrons and never once have fielded a unit of wraiths and the maximum Night Scythes I have fielded is 2, I prefer to play balanced lists or at least lists based on synergy and I believe that the IK, without seeing the rules, is an anti-one trick pony. Plus, I personally would love to see the spectacle of two IK engaged in CC. Fully painted, with a sprawling battle at their feet, and then they all blow up and take the entire game out. That would be a game indeed.

Maybe these players will finally realise that tactics may or may not be crucial to the game now. Perhaps the SPAM days are over? I dont really know, but I think the OP needs to find 'better' players.

I love a good challenge, what I don't love is things that are hard counters to other things. I see knights creating a lot more one sided games...which I feel is bad.

Yes true. I haven't actually faced taudar or much tau lately. I guess against an IK only time will tell how OP it is. I personally don't fear IK as Necrons. Use Anrakyr to shoot the IK's own weapons, then use Nemesor Zhandrekh to Tank Hunter a 20 Warrior blob. Or something like that. When I wrote the above post I didn't want to sound whiny and it wasn't a stab at other people just the people mentioned in the OP. I personally need to play IK to assess it's threat.

barnowl wrote:
I can see Tau/Ig/Marine and maybe Eldar having not much trouble with a solo. DE/Ork/Nid/Sister I see having very hard times with them. If it had not been a super heavy it would be pretty balanced. I find the super heavy and D melee skew it to much. The I'K is a much stronger unit than a RipTide.

Orks do have problems with it. They have problems with pretty much anything AV13+Something that really needs to change when they get updated in a few months.
Dark Eldar have Dark Lances and Haywire, as well as heat guns. They are in pretty good shape.
Sisters have melta, multimeltas, and the Exorcist. They are not a strong army list in general, but a Knight is nothing impossible for them.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I refuse to play against a Knight Titan.

I will give anyone who attempts to call their Knight suit a Titan a flat look until they squirm and apologise.

Given GW have called it a Knight Titan... you may be staring at them a mighty long time before you get an apology.

I see Imperial Knight Titan on the box, but absolutely nowhere else. Didn't see the phrase anywhere in Codex Knights. Just on the box, which makes me think it is merely for copyright reasons. Imperial Knight Titan is a lot easier to protect than Imperial Knight.

lol, Sisters have trouble with a Knight... is good joke! Needs more dying though.

Skink has never seen my flat looks, clearly.

I don't see why people have a problem with the Knight, it is tough but not impossible to bring down. Personally I like playing against one because it forces me to actually bring some tactics into my games instead of dig in and just obliterate the opponent with big guns. I played a 1000pt game yesterday against a player who brought a knight titan (we were practicing for a doubles tournament), top of turn five he surrendered because he no longer had any chance. I lost a vendetta to an assault (put it in hover mode next to the titan to give him a nice juicy target while melta vets jumped out the sides), he lost 3 squads of kriegers, 2 centaurs, and his knight. It was a fun game.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
FMCs are not restricted to 90 degree turning like Flyers. So a Crone can hit it every turn with VS as long as it is alive...the problem with this is that Crones are incredibly squishy and can be grounded super fast with small arms fire and if it is in range to VS the Knight, it is in range to be assaulted by the Knight. I think the Crone IS the best option for Tyranids but that really isn't saying much at all, it is still a bad choice for it. It's not like it is 3 Crones vs the Knight, it is the Tyranids vs the Knight + What ever other army they are playing and most people take some form of Sky Fire and that will shred the Crones quickly.

The 2nd dot point of swooping says...

"...a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90 degrees before it moves. Thereafter it must move directly forwards in a straight line."

So unless there's some exception to that rule somewhere, you are only going to be vector striking, probably at best turn 2, turn 4 and turn 6.... if you live past turn 1

Also, the average HP per vector strike, by my quick maths, is only 1.2 on average.

So the Crone is hardly a silver bullet. You could take a couple of Crones to try and knock off a couple of HP and then use some other MC's to take it out in close combat.

But that's a BIG investment to take it out, 310pts worth of Crones which will probably die without doing anything other than removing a few HP + whatever MC's you use to finish it off + whatever the Knight kills before you take it down.

A lot of effort to kill a single Knight. If the opponent shows up with 2 or 3, I really think there's very little a Tyranid player could do other than try and minimise the damage it can do.

On the up side, the Battle Cannons aren't all that effective at killing MC's, they can wipe out a lot of cheap gaunts. So hopefully it won't do much damage to your army either. Unless of course you took some Warriors/Raveners/etc... in which case the Knights are going to put a significant dent in your army.

This problem is simply solved. If someone brings an IK to a game bring an aluminum baseball bat. The minute it kills something scream in rage and Babe Ruth that scuzzy IK off the table. Be sure to revel in the shattered model. Oh don't look like that. Seriously, they'll get over it. You have a baseball bat for crying out loud. :|

I honestly don't know a lot about Imperial Knights but I like the shakeup possibility they present. I wouldn't mind facing one. I have seen numerous posts about having a knight on the table makes the opposing side have to play differently. I agree. People gripe and complain about OP this and OP that but the first step to beating a unit is to not fear the unit. The guy whining? I'd say forget that guy.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
FMCs are not restricted to 90 degree turning like Flyers. So a Crone can hit it every turn with VS as long as it is alive...the problem with this is that Crones are incredibly squishy and can be grounded super fast with small arms fire and if it is in range to VS the Knight, it is in range to be assaulted by the Knight. I think the Crone IS the best option for Tyranids but that really isn't saying much at all, it is still a bad choice for it. It's not like it is 3 Crones vs the Knight, it is the Tyranids vs the Knight + What ever other army they are playing and most people take some form of Sky Fire and that will shred the Crones quickly.

The 2nd dot point of swooping says...

"...a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90 degrees before it moves. Thereafter it must move directly forwards in a straight line."

So unless there's some exception to that rule somewhere, you are only going to be vector striking, probably at best turn 2, turn 4 and turn 6.... if you live past turn 1

Also, the average HP per vector strike, by my quick maths, is only 1.2 on average.

So the Crone is hardly a silver bullet. You could take a couple of Crones to try and knock off a couple of HP and then use some other MC's to take it out in close combat.

But that's a BIG investment to take it out, 310pts worth of Crones which will probably die without doing anything other than removing a few HP + whatever MC's you use to finish it off + whatever the Knight kills before you take it down.

A lot of effort to kill a single Knight. If the opponent shows up with 2 or 3, I really think there's very little a Tyranid player could do other than try and minimise the damage it can do.

On the up side, the Battle Cannons aren't all that effective at killing MC's, they can wipe out a lot of cheap gaunts. So hopefully it won't do much damage to your army either. Unless of course you took some Warriors/Raveners/etc... in which case the Knights are going to put a significant dent in your army.

Assuming that the only thing on the table for crones to attack is the knight. VS them and shoot at another unit, ot Shoot at them after vector striking something else. Just because the crone may not be hurting the knight every turn, doesn't mean it is suddenly not doing anything useful.

Murdius Maximus wrote:
I honestly don't know a lot about Imperial Knights but I like the shakeup possibility they present. I wouldn't mind facing one. I have seen numerous posts about having a knight on the table makes the opposing side have to play differently. I agree. People gripe and complain about OP this and OP that but the first step to beating a unit is to not fear the unit. The guy whining? I'd say forget that guy.

My problem with the IK isn't that it makes you "play" differently, rather it adds another facet to the rock-paper-scissors army building game.

That said, I'd never refuse someone who wants to use one.

This is unfortunate.

The knights codex is not optional, its as legitimate as the Tau codex. Your friend of course has the right to opt to not play you, but honestly that is a TFG move.

This is a hobby, but also a game that ranges from friendly to competitive depending on who's playing and the venue of play. Considering it is a game that has a competitive range, many people play for winning more than fun. Yes there are people who play their khorne berzerker armies, or green tide orks, or devestator/tactical squad foot marines, because they love the models and painted them, and there are people who play only one of the top 2-3 armies, and if there is an update that replaces their army in power, they replace their army in power.

These people, not all of them, but usually the ones who refuse to play something and claim its "optional" when its new and is a counter to their uber army, come from this camp.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Assuming that the only thing on the table for crones to attack is the knight. VS them and shoot at another unit, ot Shoot at them after vector striking something else. Just because the crone may not be hurting the knight every turn, doesn't mean it is suddenly not doing anything useful.

I was mostly assuming you actually want to VS the Knight every 2nd turn. If you just want to VS it turn 2, then spend the next few turns attacking other things, yeah, you can attack some other things.

I was mostly thinking if you're going to spend a turn VSing a Knight, you probably are trying to actually kill it so want to focus on it somewhat.

Though honestly I think the Crone will be dead by turn 3 anyway At T5, 4+ save, it's really not that hard to kill. If you deploy on the board instead of reserves and don't get first turn, it probably won't even survive to turn 2.

But yeah, the Crone is probably the best way to deal with a Knight. But I still think a Tyranid player is going to have to make a large investment of points and effort to bring it down (more than most other armies by a long shot).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Murdius Maximus wrote:
I honestly don't know a lot about Imperial Knights but I like the shakeup possibility they present. I wouldn't mind facing one. I have seen numerous posts about having a knight on the table makes the opposing side have to play differently. I agree. People gripe and complain about OP this and OP that but the first step to beating a unit is to not fear the unit. The guy whining? I'd say forget that guy.

My problem with the IK isn't that it makes you "play" differently, rather it adds another facet to the rock-paper-scissors army building game.

That said, I'd never refuse someone who wants to use one.

While some people hate the rock paper scissors scenario, it's kind of refreshing to see that wave serpents and riptide lists will now be given a run for their money and forced to adapt.

In the end, these lists are just "one trick pony" armies where if they come up against their counter, they can't do anything. The IK will probably offer enough meta strategy that they'll be forced to bring down the level of spam in their lists and focus more on lists that work in a wide variety of scenarios. Or whine and say they're not going to play against it because their spam army doesn't work against it.

It'll be interesting to see how far lists depart from the current scheme of things. I'll probably buy a knight list myself and use it whenever I think a taudar player is metaing me because I like to play necrons.

I just bought one for a siege of vraks campaign where I'm allowed to bring a lord of war.

Honestly. Afterwards I may never use my imperial knight again after that.

They seem too OP for reg games.

Personally I try to only play infantry only matches with people. The vehicles and flyers only make everyone go into an arms race.

sonicaucie wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Murdius Maximus wrote:
I honestly don't know a lot about Imperial Knights but I like the shakeup possibility they present. I wouldn't mind facing one. I have seen numerous posts about having a knight on the table makes the opposing side have to play differently. I agree. People gripe and complain about OP this and OP that but the first step to beating a unit is to not fear the unit. The guy whining? I'd say forget that guy.

My problem with the IK isn't that it makes you "play" differently, rather it adds another facet to the rock-paper-scissors army building game.

That said, I'd never refuse someone who wants to use one.

While some people hate the rock paper scissors scenario, it's kind of refreshing to see that wave serpents and riptide lists will now be given a run for their money and forced to adapt.

In the end, these lists are just "one trick pony" armies where if they come up against their counter, they can't do anything. The IK will probably offer enough meta strategy that they'll be forced to bring down the level of spam in their lists and focus more on lists that work in a wide variety of scenarios. Or whine and say they're not going to play against it because their spam army doesn't work against it.

It'll be interesting to see how far lists depart from the current scheme of things. I'll probably buy a knight list myself and use it whenever I think a taudar player is metaing me because I like to play necrons.

Funny thing is I see the opposite I see it making those lists stronger because they can just bring a knight of their own......or can already kill a knight. The armies that it hurts most are daemons, nids, and orks. Which now need to account for another threat so weaknt he selves agains those spam lists....

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

True. Its still their choice and you can't take that choice away from them, however petty you may think their reasoning to be. This is why its important to have a well written, well balanced game. If it was balanced, fewer people would be so upset and feel that certain armies are unfair and overpowered.

This really is GW's fault for writing a pile of crap, not the customers who complain about the pile of crap.

If I want balanced ill play chess.

You may want to consider playing that game if balance is what you care about most.

Why do you bother playing with a ruleset at all then? Why not just make it up on the spot and go "pew pew pew ! you die!" instead of rolling dice and following rules. Rules give structure to a game. If those rules are poorly written and unbalanced, then its a poor game.

Then may I ask why are you playing this game if it is so poorly balanced? And if you aren't then why are you on the 40k board?

 Gitsmasher wrote:
Then may I ask why are you playing this game if it is so poorly balanced? And if you aren't then why are you on the 40k board?

I play it because I have friends who play it (though most have now quit). I play it because I already have 40k armies to play with that I've spent hundreds if not thousands of hours on and I don't want to sell on ebay for a measly few hundred bucks. I play it because it's one of the easier games to find opponents. I play it because it's fun getting together with friends to play a game regardless of what the game might be. I play it because I like the 40k universe. I play it because no other sci-fi 28mm scale game has so many well expanded armies.

But I'd still think (as a game) it's pretty bad and I'd like to see it get better.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:
Then may I ask why are you playing this game if it is so poorly balanced? And if you aren't then why are you on the 40k board?

I play it because I have friends who play it (though most have now quit). I play it because I already have 40k armies to play with that I've spent hundreds if not thousands of hours on and I don't want to sell on ebay for a measly few hundred bucks. I play it because it's one of the easier games to find opponents. I play it because it's fun getting together with friends to play a game regardless of what the game might be. I play it because I like the 40k universe. I play it because no other sci-fi 28mm scale game has so many well expanded armies.

But I'd still think (as a game) it's pretty bad and I'd like to see it get better.

Not trying to sound rude or mean, but have you considered trying something else in life? It's obvious your not having fun, when you say things like "I have fun, but the game is bad" that's double speak, and a sign your trying to come up with any reason to continue playing.

Honestly bro I would recommend you put you models up and walk away from the hobby for a while, you may go out and find you like the rest of the world and may never come back, or you might comeback after a few years away, I know I have plenty of times.

 knas ser wrote:

 rednecroncryptek wrote:
What happened to people wanting a challenge? Actually wanting to play a game that requires more than placing the models down in deployment and then just rolling dice? I think perhaps the imperial knight may be good because it will perhaps make the Tau player adapt *gasp*.

Honestly, whether the concerns are right or wrong, I think you're doing many of the critics in this thread a disservice. Most aren't worried that Tau will be unable to deal with the IKs, but that it will be even more of a step back for all the non-Tau/Taudar. It's not people mostly complaining because they don't like a challenge but because they fear that the IKs make the game even more uneven and thus less of a challenge still (due to unequal sides making the game less about skill and more about army choice).

I mean obviously there are others out there how you describe as this thread was kicked off by someone facing exactly that sort of player. But I think most of the people in this thread are not like that.

I personally haven't made a judgement on this. It seems powerful for its points, but I haven't seen it in action or read enough battle reports, yet. It's 375 points, yes? For that I could load a Wave Serpent up wit six wraith guard with D-Scythes. Or have six D-Cannon Support Batteries and have change for a warlock or two, I think. Actually, with a quick bit of head-arithmetic, that's about thirty guardians with three bright lance weapons platforms or about eight Reapers plus Exarch, plus fast-shot and starshot missiles for all. Is a single IK over-powered compared to those options? Honestly, it seems a bit too good, but for me it's too early to tell.

We had this fuss over the Revenant Titan as well. But there the model costs the same as a small country so you don't see it very often, and it's also non-scoring and over twice the points. So I'm going to give it a little time to tell.

This exactly. I'll play against the IK a few times and if its okay, I'll continue to play against them. If they're OP, then I won't play against them. My SOB army shouldn't have a problem, but my SM army certainly will. I don't see how my SM army could even hope to take out two.

Funny thing is I see the opposite I see it making those lists stronger because they can just bring a knight of their own......or can already kill a knight. The armies that it hurts most are daemons, nids, and orks. Which now need to account for another threat so weaknt he selves agains those spam lists....

I think a lot of armies lacking anti-armor will be hit.

It's a big point sink to try and "fight fire with fire" as tau/eldar against imperial forces. You're going against armies which can field stronger anti-armor wings than you, can directly support them with tech marines and such and score too.

If a taudar player wants to spend the points to field one as an allied detachment, he can go for it. But I think the majority response in a competitive game will be "Great".

They're not as hard to kill as a riptide if you're fielding an army that has good anti-armor. And if taudar players do start to field them as allies, you'll start to see anti-armor wings as a standard inclusion in a competitive list until eventually we do have some balance in the lists. I personally, would love to go against a wave serpent / IK army as an imperial army or my necrons.

I can field stormteks with haywire staves and anrakyr the traveler which are units I haven't considered fielding as a standard until now. And if I'm imperial forces, I can directly support my IK with tech marines. I haven't looked incredibly deep at it yet, but I foresee spammed lists on the tau/eldar side becoming very hard to field if your opponent is using a knight with support and we'll probably see more variation on both sides as a result.

So, yeah.

TL;DR: "I'll use an IK to beat your IK" as tau, eldar, ect won't work.

I don't think the new Tyranid Skyblight list are going to have too much trouble with them.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:
Then may I ask why are you playing this game if it is so poorly balanced? And if you aren't then why are you on the 40k board?

I play it because I have friends who play it (though most have now quit). I play it because I already have 40k armies to play with that I've spent hundreds if not thousands of hours on and I don't want to sell on ebay for a measly few hundred bucks. I play it because it's one of the easier games to find opponents. I play it because it's fun getting together with friends to play a game regardless of what the game might be. I play it because I like the 40k universe. I play it because no other sci-fi 28mm scale game has so many well expanded armies.

But I'd still think (as a game) it's pretty bad and I'd like to see it get better.

Not trying to sound rude or mean, but have you considered trying something else in life? It's obvious your not having fun, when you say things like "I have fun, but the game is bad" that's double speak, and a sign your trying to come up with any reason to continue playing.

Honestly bro I would recommend you put you models up and walk away from the hobby for a while, you may go out and find you like the rest of the world and may never come back, or you might comeback after a few years away, I know I have plenty of times.

It's not double speak. I enjoy the social aspect of getting together with friends and playing a wargame. I also enjoy reading the fluff and building an army. And while I think the game is pretty average, I do still enjoy the competitive aspect of wargaming (opposed to just placing action figures down and yelling "pew pew pew").

The hobby is multifaceted. 40k has a big bird poo on a couple of faces, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the other faces.

There's more to the game beyond it's (flawed) rules. I actually think Fantasy is a better game yet I have more 40k armies because I there's more 40k armies I think are cool.

EDIT: Also, I've been in and out of the hobby for around the past 20 years, so you don't need to feel like the wise old man telling me to walk away from the models and see the world... been there, done that, I didn't touch the hobby for 4 years through college and another 2 years when I was living overseas for work

sure go ahead and field them,,,the new kits are amazing ,,,but I would swap up my list if facing something with d weapons with a shadowsword,,,,,lol

Alright I was wrong about the 90 degree arc thing, with that in mind Tyranids have no answer to a Knight short of sacrificing well over its points in models to kill it.

So yeah, let's dig at the meat of the problem. A TAC list now needs so many different things that it is impossible to actually build a TAC list anymore, you need so many answers to so many different possible threats. Some armies can get away with it because they are generalist, some armies just have to accept that there are certain things they can't answer. This is terrible game design and is why most everyone I know doesn't even attempt to play 40k competitively anymore.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
It's not double speak. I enjoy the social aspect of getting together with friends and playing a wargame. I also enjoy reading the fluff and building an army. And while I think the game is pretty average, I do still enjoy the competitive aspect of wargaming (opposed to just placing action figures down and yelling "pew pew pew").

The hobby is multifaceted. 40k has a big bird poo on a couple of faces, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the other faces.

There's more to the game beyond it's (flawed) rules. I actually think Fantasy is a better game yet I have more 40k armies because I there's more 40k armies I think are cool.

EDIT: Also, I've been in and out of the hobby for around the past 20 years, so you don't need to feel like the wise old man telling me to walk away from the models and see the world... been there, done that, I didn't touch the hobby for 4 years through college and another 2 years when I was living overseas for work

Have an exalt!

I'm not your age, but I agree with you there's a lot to enjoy about 40k other than the game itself. I played my first game of regular ol' 40k this year just a week ago. Hadn't actually brought an army to play with since November to my FLGS even though we have had regular people show up every Thursday since the location opened August 2012. I just bring my paint tray and whatever figures I'm working on, hang, talk to people, laugh, enjoy the camaraderie.

40k isn't necessarily a "bad game" but only if you go out of your way to tweak the experience to be enjoyable for both people. Right now I'm a bit obsessed with Kill Team because we've been having a lot of fun with that and it's also gotten a few new people into the hobby.

It's kind of frustrating Dakka's attitude overall seems to be "bring the most hyper competitive army you can or GTFO scrub" because it's alienating behavior.

 rednecroncryptek wrote:
I'm starting to get the feeling that people are becoming too whiny for their own good, I myself would love the challenge to be able to play an IK, but with my LGS closing down soon i fear i may not get the chance.

What happened to people wanting a challenge? Actually wanting to play a game that requires more than placing the models down in deployment and then just rolling dice? I think perhaps the imperial knight may be good because it will perhaps make the Tau player adapt *gasp*.

All in all I think that's a silly way to play. I play necrons and never once have fielded a unit of wraiths and the maximum Night Scythes I have fielded is 2, I prefer to play balanced lists or at least lists based on synergy and I believe that the IK, without seeing the rules, is an anti-one trick pony. Plus, I personally would love to see the spectacle of two IK engaged in CC. Fully painted, with a sprawling battle at their feet, and then they all blow up and take the entire game out. That would be a game indeed.

Maybe these players will finally realise that tactics may or may not be crucial to the game now. Perhaps the SPAM days are over? I dont really know, but I think the OP needs to find 'better' players.

Nah. The issue is that a lot of "competitive" players aren't actually interested in a competition, they're interested in playing out their pre-calculated scenarios on the tabletop in which they lose in a statistically insignificant number of circumstances. That's why they perpetually bleat about Forgeworld despite the fact that 90% of their stuff is overcosted, 9% is about right, and maybe 1% is actually undercosted or OP; their calculations can't account for that 1%, and they despise that because they want to win the game when they build the list.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

True. Its still their choice and you can't take that choice away from them, however petty you may think their reasoning to be. This is why its important to have a well written, well balanced game. If it was balanced, fewer people would be so upset and feel that certain armies are unfair and overpowered.

This really is GW's fault for writing a pile of crap, not the customers who complain about the pile of crap.

If I want balanced ill play chess.

You may want to consider playing that game if balance is what you care about most.

Why do you bother playing with a ruleset at all then? Why not just make it up on the spot and go "pew pew pew ! you die!" instead of rolling dice and following rules. Rules give structure to a game. If those rules are poorly written and unbalanced, then its a poor game.

Then may I ask why are you playing this game if it is so poorly balanced? And if you aren't then why are you on the 40k board?

Because I began playing the game in an Edition (5th) when balance wasn't nearly as bad as it is now. There was no "Taudar", "Triptide" or "Triple Helldrake" lists when I began playing. Balance has gone downhill since I began, and since 6th especially.

And above all, I play the game because I was interested in the Lore, especially that of Raven Guard.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Because I began playing the game in an Edition (5th) when balance wasn't nearly as bad as it is now. There was no "Taudar", "Triptide" or "Triple Helldrake" lists when I began playing. Balance has gone downhill since I began, and since 6th especially.

And above all, I play the game because I was interested in the Lore, especially that of Raven Guard.

Wow, how selective our memories have become. 6th has had far fewer months of one list dominating than any edition ever. Are our memories of Longfang Razor spam, DE msu lists, anything GK, and Necrons really that poor? 6th is fairly well balanced on a year to year scale. As long as dumb crap like house ruling IK away and stuff like that doesn't get crazy, then we'll balance out fine.

Believe me TauDar and even more so, SeerStar are broken. But I think with reasonable GT like restrictions it can be fun for all. Hopefully the new 6.5 codex rewrites Str D weapons and removes Battle Brothers completely and does something about 2++ rerolls (I really liked the LVO approach).
Minor tweaks = good fun for all
Knee jerk banning = neckbeard turf protection

sonicaucie wrote:

Funny thing is I see the opposite I see it making those lists stronger because they can just bring a knight of their own......or can already kill a knight. The armies that it hurts most are daemons, nids, and orks. Which now need to account for another threat so weaknt he selves agains those spam lists....

I think a lot of armies lacking anti-armor will be hit.

It's a big point sink to try and "fight fire with fire" as tau/eldar against imperial forces. You're going against armies which can field stronger anti-armor wings than you, can directly support them with tech marines and such and score too.

If a taudar player wants to spend the points to field one as an allied detachment, he can go for it. But I think the majority response in a competitive game will be "Great".

They're not as hard to kill as a riptide if you're fielding an army that has good anti-armor. And if taudar players do start to field them as allies, you'll start to see anti-armor wings as a standard inclusion in a competitive list until eventually we do have some balance in the lists. I personally, would love to go against a wave serpent / IK army as an imperial army or my necrons.

I can field stormteks with haywire staves and anrakyr the traveler which are units I haven't considered fielding as a standard until now. And if I'm imperial forces, I can directly support my IK with tech marines. I haven't looked incredibly deep at it yet, but I foresee spammed lists on the tau/eldar side becoming very hard to field if your opponent is using a knight with support and we'll probably see more variation on both sides as a result.

So, yeah.

TL;DR: "I'll use an IK to beat your IK" as tau, eldar, ect won't work.

I just happen to disagree and I see it more as those armies hard counter to assault armies which are screwed often enough as it is. Right now my Daemon army can kill wave serpents by catching them and killing them in the assault...but if there is a knight waiting for me doing so becomes super risky....they are no easier to kill than a riptide for just about anything in the game, except gauss and haywire, but they are much more durable against anything specific to anti infantry. Anrakyr does so little he is not worth taking against knights...they don't shoot that well so taking one and shooting with it is not big deal.

My entire point is that some armies answer to Anti armor is not shooting...and those armies get screwed by an Imperial Knight.

SO I think we end up with a meta of stuff + knights and the armies that can counter them ok (which when they are supported by other things are really not that many armies.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 rednecroncryptek wrote:
I'm starting to get the feeling that people are becoming too whiny for their own good, I myself would love the challenge to be able to play an IK, but with my LGS closing down soon i fear i may not get the chance.

What happened to people wanting a challenge? Actually wanting to play a game that requires more than placing the models down in deployment and then just rolling dice? I think perhaps the imperial knight may be good because it will perhaps make the Tau player adapt *gasp*.

All in all I think that's a silly way to play. I play necrons and never once have fielded a unit of wraiths and the maximum Night Scythes I have fielded is 2, I prefer to play balanced lists or at least lists based on synergy and I believe that the IK, without seeing the rules, is an anti-one trick pony. Plus, I personally would love to see the spectacle of two IK engaged in CC. Fully painted, with a sprawling battle at their feet, and then they all blow up and take the entire game out. That would be a game indeed.

Maybe these players will finally realise that tactics may or may not be crucial to the game now. Perhaps the SPAM days are over? I dont really know, but I think the OP needs to find 'better' players.

Nah. The issue is that a lot of "competitive" players aren't actually interested in a competition, they're interested in playing out their pre-calculated scenarios on the tabletop in which they lose in a statistically insignificant number of circumstances. That's why they perpetually bleat about Forgeworld despite the fact that 90% of their stuff is overcosted, 9% is about right, and maybe 1% is actually undercosted or OP; their calculations can't account for that 1%, and they despise that because they want to win the game when they build the list.

Not really true at all its because a vast majority of them don't want to face stuff like Thudd guns under a skyshield (hobby killer) lists which oh by the way could now field a knight for assault protection...because we all enjoy setting up models and then removing them from the table. I really wish GW put out balanced rules for stuff....but they don't and the inclusion of a good amount of it (FW, Superheavies, and regular rules) leads to onesided games. Knights just add to that.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Alright I was wrong about the 90 degree arc thing, with that in mind Tyranids have no answer to a Knight short of sacrificing well over its points in models to kill it.

So yeah, let's dig at the meat of the problem. A TAC list now needs so many different things that it is impossible to actually build a TAC list anymore, you need so many answers to so many different possible threats. Some armies can get away with it because they are generalist, some armies just have to accept that there are certain things they can't answer. This is terrible game design and is why most everyone I know doesn't even attempt to play 40k competitively anymore.

This. This right here is the problem.

I would have absolutely no problem playing against any number of Knights with my Eldar. That codex has a number of options that are either good at inflicting ranged damage, very mobile, or more often, both. I can put Bright Lances on nearly anything, often cheaply. I can plink away getting glances with umpteen scatter lasers, or snipe away with Heavy Wraithcannons from while staying well outside charge range. And if all that fails, I can even throw in some allies with even more options.
More importantly, many of these options will find their way into regular lists, and aren't specially chosen just because a Knight is on the table.

On the other hand you'd be lucky to get more than a single game from me with Knights against my Tyranids. Despite the sizeable (over 10k points) collection I own, there is very little I can use to counter Knights point for point. I have no desire to drop £150+ on multiple FMCs to run the latest FotM netlist (and I don't like FMCs in general anyway). Outside of Escalation/Apoc, my best ranged S10 option is a pitiful 2-shot AP4 gun fired at BS3. Zoanthropes can no longer deep strike into position with their short-ranged lance attack, so that using them means relying on my opponent feeling magnanimous enough to wander into range (and not pointing the invuln in their direction too). I can hope to get lucky with Hive Guard shooting, but this means tailoring my list specifically against Knights and sacrificing other Elite slots my army usually relies on. A TAC build is certainly not an option if you didn't rush out and buy multiple boxes of the new Crone kit.
Of course, normally I wouldn't worry about any of this. In a typical game I don't concern myself with shooting down AV13/14 because I can just throw some MCs in that direction and watch them explode. I often thank my opponent for running Land Raiders, because they're like big juicy pinatas for my bugs that I have no trouble smashing up.
But with Knights that's different. Not only can they outmaneuver most MCs and dictate range with a 12" movement, not only do they have a Destroyer melee weapon that can kill MCs at I4 before many of them strike, but even if you do kill the thing it explodes and hits everything in base contact with another Destroyer hit. That makes virtually any attempt to take out Knights in melee a suicide run. Even the melee focused, 500pt+/£100 Scythed Hierodule is unlikely to survive an encounter with a single Knight. The only reliable hard counter comes in the form of a ~750pt/£250 Harridan - twice the cost of a Knight in both money and points. Better hope that doesn't fail a single grounding test!

Some armies just don't have reasonable options to counter these things (I feel just as bad for Ork players), and I don't blame any player who declines a game with Knights when they don't have the tools to compete.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
So yeah, let's dig at the meat of the problem. A TAC list now needs so many different things that it is impossible to actually build a TAC list anymore, you need so many answers to so many different possible threats. Some armies can get away with it because they are generalist, some armies just have to accept that there are certain things they can't answer. This is terrible game design and is why most everyone I know doesn't even attempt to play 40k competitively anymore.

As I posted in this thread, this is by design according to Jervis Johnson. He specifically says that "[The fact GW is satisfied with the IK] is because no one army can ever deal with all-comers. The holy grail of many hobbyists is to fashion a single, all-conquering army that can win in any eventuality, but in truth there is probably no such thing. It doesn't make the search any less fun, but there are just too many variables, and the Imperial Knight adds another wrinkle to it."

GW thinks there shouldn't be a "TAC list" and the myriad of options available now are a good thing because of that.

(Note: Please feel free to bring to the discussion linked above, I wanted to quote it to cite but I don't want to derail this thread)

Yes, but there are armies that can make TAC lists and other armies that can't, as explained in xttz's post one above.

In my view it should be possible for any codex to have several lists with differe flavours that have a reasonable chance against any opposition given good tactics and a bit of luck.

Otherwise why bother to play?

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
So yeah, let's dig at the meat of the problem. A TAC list now needs so many different things that it is impossible to actually build a TAC list anymore, you need so many answers to so many different possible threats. Some armies can get away with it because they are generalist, some armies just have to accept that there are certain things they can't answer. This is terrible game design and is why most everyone I know doesn't even attempt to play 40k competitively anymore.

That sounds right, and you can see it with the new Skyblight formation for Tyranids - I just can't build a TAC that will have a chance against mass flyers AND be able to counter a couple Knights AND be able to deal Triptides AND be able to defeat a horde of boyz. It's not really an issue when I'm playing against my regular opponents (since we build lists with each other's army in mind), but I've played quite a few pick-up games that were just boring because my usual TAC list was totally ineffective against these new shiny units that GW pushes out.

WayneTheGame wrote:
As I posted in this thread, this is by design according to Jervis Johnson. He specifically says that "[The fact GW is satisfied with the IK] is because no one army can ever deal with all-comers. The holy grail of many hobbyists is to fashion a single, all-conquering army that can win in any eventuality, but in truth there is probably no such thing. It doesn't make the search any less fun, but there are just too many variables, and the Imperial Knight adds another wrinkle to it."

GW thinks there shouldn't be a "TAC list" and the myriad of options available now are a good thing because of that.

(Note: Please feel free to bring to the discussion linked above, I wanted to quote it to cite but I don't want to derail this thread)

If I was a GW game designer with free access to all the models, I might dig that philosophy. But I have only finite time and money to spend on models, and I play TAC out of necessity. I resent being pushed out of the hobby because I don't want to spend another few hundred bucks on models that can counter the latest GW releases. When I see the Knight, I don't think "wow, that looks cool!" I think "damnit, now I'm just going to get stomped every game unless I buy some overpriced new models".

 TedNugent wrote:
This thing is a disaster for Orks.

At least it's coming over to fight us in close combat, unlike those eldar and tau cheapskates

A brood of 3 fex should cost equal or less than a knight and kill it more often than not - and have a model left at the end.

Assuming the Knight is not in terrain, and the explosion does not hit the 3rd carnifex.

Also there is a not unreasonable chance that it will kill 2 before they swing...At which poin they don't kill it.

I really don't understand the fuss over this unit. Of course that might just be because I have a hard time fearing any model that can be crippled by a 60 point unit of haywire wyches.

Also, with my daemons, I look forward to using puppet master on the big bastard.

I've found with 40k, best not to focus on what you can't do, but what you can do. And if you can't do anything about something....CHANGE or accept it!

People keep saying puppet master...it is not that good, it does not shoot that much...so meh...I can already puppet master things far more dangerous.

Also sure 60 points of haywire wyches could kill it...it is likely though that they will not.

It might kill some in overwatch (assuming they get there in the first place) Then they only hit with 3ish grenades, which might get you 3 glances...Then all the wyches die. Sure they could roll all 6s for pens etc....but it is not likely.

Massaen wrote:A brood of 3 fex should cost equal or less than a knight and kill it more often than not - and have a model left at the end.

Breng77 wrote:Assuming the Knight is not in terrain, and the explosion does not hit the 3rd carnifex.

Also there is a not unreasonable chance that it will kill 2 before they swing...At which poin they don't kill it.

The Knight will nearly always strike first (I4 vs I2) and hit on 3+ (WS4 vs WS3). This typically means landing 2-3 destroyer hits, each of which will inflict a minimum of 2 wounds on 2+. With luck it's possible for all 3 Fexes to go down without striking a blow, but 1 or 2 is fairly likely.
Any survivors get to strike back needing 4+ to hit, so they'd better be melee fit for the extra attack. With only AP2, a Fex would have to be pretty lucky to get any Explode results, but has a good chance to remove 1 or 2 HP.

Of course this is all reliant on various assumptions, such as:

The Knight is using his 12" movement to dictate range over the 6" moving Fexes, ensuring he gets the charge and therefore the extra benefits from HoW

No HoW hits were factored in here from either side

The Carnifex brood makes it into combat undamaged, which is pretty unlikely when the Paladin battle cannon is more than capable of killing a whole Fex in a turn.

The only real chance a Fex brood has of killing a Knight is to get the charge off themselves, and pile on 3D3 S9 HoW hits first. That needs to be followed up by 1, preferably 2 of them striking normally. Unfortunately there's not much chance of that against any competent Knight player.

A better melee option would be a dedicated Flyrant with Crushing Claws and Scything Talons. This strikes before the Knight with a much better WS, and can keep pace thanks to the 12" jump move. Unfortunately it's still pretty unlikely to kill an undamaged Knight before getting hit back, and can't weather more than a single Destroyer hit including the explosion. All of this means a 200pt+ synapse unit (and likely your Warlord) is still a suicide option.

Breng77 wrote:
People keep saying puppet master...it is not that good, it does not shoot that much...so meh...I can already puppet master things far more dangerous.

Also sure 60 points of haywire wyches could kill it...it is likely though that they will not.

It might kill some in overwatch (assuming they get there in the first place) Then they only hit with 3ish grenades, which might get you 3 glances...Then all the wyches die. Sure they could roll all 6s for pens etc....but it is not likely.

Puppet master is useful in this instance in that the enemies units are not usually placed to get cover/show front arc to one of their own units.

And with the wyches I did say cripple not kill. I would recommend shaving a hullpoint or three off with lances first. But the fact remains that after 1 thrown grenade and assuming that the heavy stubber doesnt kill any wyches, you are looking at 4 grenade hits. Even if you haven't done anything else before that, the knight is now easy pickings.

As to regarding whether or not they make it there, if IKs become a common thing, I will be adding a 2nd unit of these girls to my list. All in all I'd rather see an IK then like points of Riptides.

 gardeth wrote:

I've found with 40k, best not to focus on what you can't do, but what you can do. And if you can't do anything about something....CHANGE or accept it!

This. If the game remained the same for its entire life, it would grow boring and stale after a few short years. The game will change in an attempt to change the meta. Don't you guys want something to take out Taudar, seerstar, and beaststar? I'm sure any army barring nids, daemons, orks can handle at least one by itself. And don't forget that the cost of the Knight goes against the point limit for their army. Spend a turn using the resources at your disposal to remove it as a threat and laugh as the rest of his army can't compete. If you build your list right with overlapping tasks, you can do it. The only problem I could see is a TAC list vs 4-6 knights. I have no answer for that other than praying for a lucky scatter on the d explosion template.

I really like the ideal of the imperial knight, I've only just come back to 40k and had my ass complexly handed to me tau...which is demoralising. Two riptides jumping across the battlefield blowing all my guard up. I didn't have much of an answer to them in my current force but I'm not going to not play that guy cos he will beat me, I'm just going to have to think hard about how to beat him....and I will one day.

Would be be very mean to field a Baneblande (as I've just ordered one) and an Imperial Knight (as I really want one) in an 1850 point game.....hehe

Our group is planning on using them.

 randomtoaster wrote:
So in no uncertain terms, i've been told by many players in my local club, they'll refuse to play me if I bring my Knight titan. Played this Tau guy, play him most weeks and generally he'll win (general camping Tau tactics, smart missiles, marker lights, riptides etc.) this time I tore him apart with my Storm Raven/IK combo, now hes saying he won't play me again. Now everytime I get tabled by him (it's not hard when i'm running a 12 model list...) I don't moan, I just take it in my stride, I don't care it's all fun. However, since he played something he didn't know how to deal with right away, he's gonna refuse any games from now on.
This other guy too, who brings stuff from stronghold assault without even asking his opponent (i know its part of 40k now, but its common courtesy) says he won't play me either. Yet, he is one of the most try hard WAAC players, he's the most irritant person to play against, however he's a challenge.

I can understand the worry of coming up against a super heavy with D strength weapons, but really it's not invincible in the slightest. You won't know how to take it down, unless you've come across one. Has anyone else had this problem so far?

Throw it right back at them. "I'll not play against stronghold assault anymore."

I'm rather puzzled by the fear of the Knight's resilience, if you could deal with a standard Leman Russ tank in cover in 5E, you can probably deal with a Knight even easier, especially if you catch if from the sides. The only thing scary about it is its melee weapon, and only if you're tossing something at it that wouldn't get instagibbed by an S10 melee hit anyway. For most tanks and infantry units, the difference between D and S10 AP2/1 in melee is academic, it's other walkers, MC's, and stuff reliant on invul saves that really cares.

For nearly 400pts, I'm not really seeing where anyone has much of a stance to refuse to play them on balance issues.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Alright I was wrong about the 90 degree arc thing, with that in mind Tyranids have no answer to a Knight short of sacrificing well over its points in models to kill it.

So yeah, let's dig at the meat of the problem. A TAC list now needs so many different things that it is impossible to actually build a TAC list anymore, you need so many answers to so many different possible threats. Some armies can get away with it because they are generalist, some armies just have to accept that there are certain things they can't answer. This is terrible game design and is why most everyone I know doesn't even attempt to play 40k competitively anymore.

Hive Guard with Electroshock will kill it in 2-3 rounds of shooting pretty easily.
Zoanthrope Brood of 3 can single round it, but more likely kill it in 2 rounds.

Other less friendly options are MCs Smashing it. Your sacrificing your MC, but pointwise should come out ahead.

I think people fear what they don't know. I don't know what kind of armament the Knight uses aside from a brief description on games workshops site, I and from what others have briefly mentioned. I think the opinion may change if more people see them and see them being torn apart.

I think for low point games its kinda messed up, but I doubt some one will field just knights. I think many players plan to buy one for an ally team. I don't see a lot of people just fielding three or more of these things, I think the army would be dull and get boring easily.

 xttz wrote:

Massaen wrote:A brood of 3 fex should cost equal or less than a knight and kill it more often than not - and have a model left at the end.

Breng77 wrote:Assuming the Knight is not in terrain, and the explosion does not hit the 3rd carnifex.

Also there is a not unreasonable chance that it will kill 2 before they swing...At which poin they don't kill it.

The Knight will nearly always strike first (I4 vs I2) and hit on 3+ (WS4 vs WS3). This typically means landing 2-3 destroyer hits, each of which will inflict a minimum of 2 wounds on 2+. With luck it's possible for all 3 Fexes to go down without striking a blow, but 1 or 2 is fairly likely.
Any survivors get to strike back needing 4+ to hit, so they'd better be melee fit for the extra attack. With only AP2, a Fex would have to be pretty lucky to get any Explode results, but has a good chance to remove 1 or 2 HP.

Of course this is all reliant on various assumptions, such as:

The Knight is using his 12" movement to dictate range over the 6" moving Fexes, ensuring he gets the charge and therefore the extra benefits from HoW

No HoW hits were factored in here from either side

The Carnifex brood makes it into combat undamaged, which is pretty unlikely when the Paladin battle cannon is more than capable of killing a whole Fex in a turn.

The only real chance a Fex brood has of killing a Knight is to get the charge off themselves, and pile on 3D3 S9 HoW hits first. That needs to be followed up by 1, preferably 2 of them striking normally. Unfortunately there's not much chance of that against any competent Knight player.

A better melee option would be a dedicated Flyrant with Crushing Claws and Scything Talons. This strikes before the Knight with a much better WS, and can keep pace thanks to the 12" jump move. Unfortunately it's still pretty unlikely to kill an undamaged Knight before getting hit back, and can't weather more than a single Destroyer hit including the explosion. All of this means a 200pt+ synapse unit (and likely your Warlord) is still a suicide option.

You forgot about the Stomp which has a good chance of finishing off the 3rd one. Up to 3 stomps each with a 1/6 chance of flat removing the a fex from play. Even more amusing is the fact that a single Stomp can potential remove two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

 randomtoaster wrote:
So in no uncertain terms, i've been told by many players in my local club, they'll refuse to play me if I bring my Knight titan. Played this Tau guy, play him most weeks and generally he'll win (general camping Tau tactics, smart missiles, marker lights, riptides etc.) this time I tore him apart with my Storm Raven/IK combo, now hes saying he won't play me again. Now everytime I get tabled by him (it's not hard when i'm running a 12 model list...) I don't moan, I just take it in my stride, I don't care it's all fun. However, since he played something he didn't know how to deal with right away, he's gonna refuse any games from now on.
This other guy too, who brings stuff from stronghold assault without even asking his opponent (i know its part of 40k now, but its common courtesy) says he won't play me either. Yet, he is one of the most try hard WAAC players, he's the most irritant person to play against, however he's a challenge.

I can understand the worry of coming up against a super heavy with D strength weapons, but really it's not invincible in the slightest. You won't know how to take it down, unless you've come across one. Has anyone else had this problem so far?

Throw it right back at them. "I'll not play against stronghold assault anymore."

I generally don't play that either for the similar reasons, AV15 and D weapons (Void shield rules weirdness doesn't help either).

Jidmah wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
This thing is a disaster for Orks.

At least it's coming over to fight us in close combat, unlike those eldar and tau cheapskates

If I had a Knight and was fighting against Orks, I wouldn't be advancing. Let the double battlecannon shots do the damage.

xttz wrote:

Massaen wrote:A brood of 3 fex should cost equal or less than a knight and kill it more often than not - and have a model left at the end.

Breng77 wrote:Assuming the Knight is not in terrain, and the explosion does not hit the 3rd carnifex.

Also there is a not unreasonable chance that it will kill 2 before they swing...At which poin they don't kill it.

The Knight will nearly always strike first (I4 vs I2) and hit on 3+ (WS4 vs WS3). This typically means landing 2-3 destroyer hits, each of which will inflict a minimum of 2 wounds on 2+. With luck it's possible for all 3 Fexes to go down without striking a blow, but 1 or 2 is fairly likely.
Any survivors get to strike back needing 4+ to hit, so they'd better be melee fit for the extra attack. With only AP2, a Fex would have to be pretty lucky to get any Explode results, but has a good chance to remove 1 or 2 HP.

Of course this is all reliant on various assumptions, such as:

The Knight is using his 12" movement to dictate range over the 6" moving Fexes, ensuring he gets the charge and therefore the extra benefits from HoW

No HoW hits were factored in here from either side

The Carnifex brood makes it into combat undamaged, which is pretty unlikely when the Paladin battle cannon is more than capable of killing a whole Fex in a turn.

The only real chance a Fex brood has of killing a Knight is to get the charge off themselves, and pile on 3D3 S9 HoW hits first. That needs to be followed up by 1, preferably 2 of them striking normally. Unfortunately there's not much chance of that against any competent Knight player.

You need to use Gargoyles. That's the only way I can see fexes beating a Knight. Charge it with a unit of Gargoyles to pin it in place long enough for the fexes to get there and charge it. But that little combo then costs more than the Knight, will still probably end up dead, and still has a good chance of the Knight player just running away anyway (if I saw 3 fexes opposite my Knight, I'd immediately move 12" in the opposite direction so they can't reach me until turn 4 or 5, by which time they're probably dead).

A better melee option would be a dedicated Flyrant with Crushing Claws and Scything Talons. This strikes before the Knight with a much better WS, and can keep pace thanks to the 12" jump move. Unfortunately it's still pretty unlikely to kill an undamaged Knight before getting hit back, and can't weather more than a single Destroyer hit including the explosion. All of this means a 200pt+ synapse unit (and likely your Warlord) is still a suicide option.

Unless I missed something, the Hive Tyrant can't take crushing claws. Crushing Claws aren't on the Wargear list, so they can only be taken by models who explicitly say they can take it (Tyrant Guard, Tervigon, Haruspex or Carnifex).

Fragile wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Alright I was wrong about the 90 degree arc thing, with that in mind Tyranids have no answer to a Knight short of sacrificing well over its points in models to kill it.

So yeah, let's dig at the meat of the problem. A TAC list now needs so many different things that it is impossible to actually build a TAC list anymore, you need so many answers to so many different possible threats. Some armies can get away with it because they are generalist, some armies just have to accept that there are certain things they can't answer. This is terrible game design and is why most everyone I know doesn't even attempt to play 40k competitively anymore.

Hive Guard with Electroshock will kill it in 2-3 rounds of shooting pretty easily.
Zoanthrope Brood of 3 can single round it, but more likely kill it in 2 rounds.

Other less friendly options are MCs Smashing it. Your sacrificing your MC, but pointwise should come out ahead.

Yes an 18" and a 24" range weapons on walking platforms that can be easily taken out by battle cannons are the best bet to kill a super heavy with 12" moves and 6 HP are the best option...

Not considering the fact that the Knight is just a SMALL part of the enemy army.

So yes, I can take 3 x 3 groups of Zoanthropes but that is NOT a TAC list, that is me expecting to come up against a Knight or some other super heavy but again, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't super heavies immune to Lance in the first place?

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
correct me if I am wrong, but aren't super heavies immune to Lance in the first place?

You are wrong. Anything that permanently lowers AV (such as Entropic Strike) do nothing, however, if something treats the AV as a lower value without actually changing it (such as Lance) still owrk.

Fragile wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Alright I was wrong about the 90 degree arc thing, with that in mind Tyranids have no answer to a Knight short of sacrificing well over its points in models to kill it.

So yeah, let's dig at the meat of the problem. A TAC list now needs so many different things that it is impossible to actually build a TAC list anymore, you need so many answers to so many different possible threats. Some armies can get away with it because they are generalist, some armies just have to accept that there are certain things they can't answer. This is terrible game design and is why most everyone I know doesn't even attempt to play 40k competitively anymore.

Hive Guard with Electroshock will kill it in 2-3 rounds of shooting pretty easily.
Zoanthrope Brood of 3 can single round it, but more likely kill it in 2 rounds.

Other less friendly options are MCs Smashing it. Your sacrificing your MC, but pointwise should come out ahead.

The Hive Guard (which have a range of 18") can be wiped out in a single round of double battle cannon shooting (72" range), or at least severely diminished. Also the thing has it's 4+ inv save still, so your 2-3 rounds is being a bit hopeful, more like 3-4 rounds. Even if all their shots hit, if half of them are bounced by the save, you're looking at 12 shots to kill it, from 3 Hive Guard that's 4 turns of shooting, and that's neglecting that some shots might scatter too far from the Knight to hit it.

The Zoans would have to be extremely lucky to kill it in a single round. They still need to hit it, so 3+ to hit, get past a 4+ inv save, then a roll of 2 will glance and a 3+ will penetrate, then to actually wipe it out in a single round you'll need to roll a 5+ on the vehicle damage table with at least 2 hits and then roll reasonable well for the number of hull points you take off.

Far more likely it's 3+ turns of shooting. But again, the Zoans are 18" range, and the double battle cannons probably won't wipe out the unit in a single turn, but will likely kill 1 or 2 of them (Zoans have a 3+ inv, but being T4 they instantly die if they fail and each battle cannon shot will rack up 2 or 3 hits on the unit).

If you took a Hive Crone, a unit of Zoans, a unit of Hive Guard AND a Flyrant.... each one might be able to inflict a couple of HP and bring it down. But it's also likely that the Hive Guard and Zoans are blown away before they're in range, the Crone gets a single VS against it and then is dead before it gets to swing around for a 2nd VS and the Flyrant gets swatted.

That's also around 700pts of models to bring down a 375pt model and it's far from a sure thing.

The only tricksy thing you might be able to do is bring the Crone and Flyrant with Heavy Venom Cannon around to it's rear at the same time the Zoans and Guard reach the front so that you can fire it's missiles at the rear while the HG/Zoans shoot the front and it only gets to save against the front. Though also remember the Crone's missiles still need to hit (at Bs3) and it can only fire 2 at a time.

We're not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to bring down a Knight, but to bring one down you need to spend a lot of points on models that probably wouldn't be in a standard TAC nid army and you need to tailor much of your strategy around killing it (where as the Knight can happily dance around making life hard for you while the rest of it's army... or God forbid a 2nd Knight... crushes you soundly).

Honestly, if my nids came up against a Knight, I'd be feeding it gaunts and hoping it doesn't do too much damage with it's battlecannons when it's not eating gaunts. Best case scenario, you lose maybe 150pts worth of gaunts + whatever it can kill with 4-6 battlecannon shots.

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

I cannont wait for GW to release their new version of a BRB with Escalation and Stronghold Assault rolled into it making them legal to play compeltely without question. I just wish i was there to see you cry more.

 Xerics wrote:
I cannont wait for GW to release their new version of a BRB with Escalation and Stronghold Assault rolled into it making them legal to play compeltely without question. I just wish i was there to see you cry more.

No offense, but such a thing would be stupid in the game's current form. Not so much because of the Knights, but because of crazy things like the Revenant Titan. I'd much sooner fight 2 or 3 Knights than a Revenant.

If GW includes Stronghold/Escalation without also including a clause that they can't be taken in smaller games it will just be annoying. What little balance 40k had will be gone, lol. Escalation is horribly unbalanced. D weapons are horribly unbalanced (the Knight gets away with it because it's only a melee D weapon).

If GW wants to have big things wandering around, IMO they need to alter the rules to make them more balanced. Instead of D weapons, weapons should have a separate column for armour penetration (that is not simply the strength + D6) and a separate column for how many HP of damage they inflict. So a Lascannon might be 2 HP, a melta might be D3, what is currently a D weapon might be 2D3.

It would help if GW brought back dice other than D6 (so D4, D10, etc) as that allows more gradation rather than "This thing does NOTHING... that thing does EVERYTHING" like we currently have with D weapons.

 Happyjew wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
correct me if I am wrong, but aren't super heavies immune to Lance in the first place?

You are wrong. Anything that permanently lowers AV (such as Entropic Strike) do nothing, however, if something treats the AV as a lower value without actually changing it (such as Lance) still owrk.

Okay so Zoanthropes are decent enough I guess but...again, battle cannons will make short work of Zoanthropes walking across the board to try and get into range to MAYBE do some damage to the Knight.


So let's break this down, Tyranids based on what we have discussed in this topic have little to no hope of actually beating a Knight, let alone a Knight backed by the rest of what ever army your opponent brings. You can try and ignore it but it seems to be tailor made for killing Tyranids. Two battlecannons for killing swarms and medium bugs, 12" move and Str D melee to kill large bugs, stubbers are enough to force grounds checks on FMC....

Do we even have to discuss Orks? I mean really...do we?

Point is, people who say, "Why do people complain about these things? They are super easy to take down with my meltas/lascannons/lances/etc." Need to understand that there are armies in this game without access to those things in a reasonable amount. TAC is a thing of the past, the only way 40k can work anymore is if you and your opponent have an understanding of what you are going to be using in the coming game.

 Xerics wrote:

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

I cannont wait for GW to release their new version of a BRB with Escalation and Stronghold Assault rolled into it making them legal to play compeltely without question. I just wish i was there to see you cry more.

Nah, not much crying, just picker in my games. I have enough uphill fights with my nid's. I don't need more "challenge". So will keep on just playing folks that don't bring Super heavies or D Weapons.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
correct me if I am wrong, but aren't super heavies immune to Lance in the first place?

You are wrong. Anything that permanently lowers AV (such as Entropic Strike) do nothing, however, if something treats the AV as a lower value without actually changing it (such as Lance) still owrk.

Okay so Zoanthropes are decent enough I guess but...again, battle cannons will make short work of Zoanthropes walking across the board to try and get into range to MAYBE do some damage to the Knight.


So let's break this down, Tyranids based on what we have discussed in this topic have little to no hope of actually beating a Knight, let alone a Knight backed by the rest of what ever army your opponent brings. You can try and ignore it but it seems to be tailor made for killing Tyranids. Two battlecannons for killing swarms and medium bugs, 12" move and Str D melee to kill large bugs, stubbers are enough to force grounds checks on FMC....

Do we even have to discuss Orks? I mean really...do we?

Point is, people who say, "Why do people complain about these things? They are super easy to take down with my meltas/lascannons/lances/etc." Need to understand that there are armies in this game without access to those things in a reasonable amount. TAC is a thing of the past, the only way 40k can work anymore is if you and your opponent have an understanding of what you are going to be using in the coming game.

Sounds like nids in 5th vs Mech 100%

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
correct me if I am wrong, but aren't super heavies immune to Lance in the first place?

You are wrong. Anything that permanently lowers AV (such as Entropic Strike) do nothing, however, if something treats the AV as a lower value without actually changing it (such as Lance) still owrk.

Okay so Zoanthropes are decent enough I guess but...again, battle cannons will make short work of Zoanthropes walking across the board to try and get into range to MAYBE do some damage to the Knight.


So let's break this down, Tyranids based on what we have discussed in this topic have little to no hope of actually beating a Knight, let alone a Knight backed by the rest of what ever army your opponent brings. You can try and ignore it but it seems to be tailor made for killing Tyranids. Two battlecannons for killing swarms and medium bugs, 12" move and Str D melee to kill large bugs, stubbers are enough to force grounds checks on FMC....

Do we even have to discuss Orks? I mean really...do we?

Point is, people who say, "Why do people complain about these things? They are super easy to take down with my meltas/lascannons/lances/etc." Need to understand that there are armies in this game without access to those things in a reasonable amount. TAC is a thing of the past, the only way 40k can work anymore is if you and your opponent have an understanding of what you are going to be using in the coming game.

Sounds like nids in 5th vs Mech 100%

Yes and no...

I played my nids in 5th to...I wouldn't say great success, but I won against parking lot IG often enough...sometimes....

But yeah, this game has not been kind to Nids since 4th and then they were over the top.

Not in 4th, they had to deal with skimmerspam Eldar and Fish of Fury Tau...Irony that this came back for Eldar, though the Tau have new fun game breaking things.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
This thing is a disaster for Orks.

At least it's coming over to fight us in close combat, unlike those eldar and tau cheapskates

If I had a Knight and was fighting against Orks, I wouldn't be advancing. Let the double battlecannon shots do the damage.

Uh, why on earth would you hold back a model that can simply destroy every single choice of the ork codex by charging it? Are you that scared of a warboss lucking out on you? Thrakka is probably the only thing that can reliably kill a knight at all.

As an Eldar player, I'm thinking a wave-serpent load of Fire Dragons. Failing that Vaul's Wrath of D-Cannon. I could use Fire Prisms but that's more model purchases.

Opinions? Fire Dragons the best way for Eldar to kill it?

Doesn't D ignore inv too , thrakka is i1 , so the knight would be swining before him .

 Jidmah wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
This thing is a disaster for Orks.

At least it's coming over to fight us in close combat, unlike those eldar and tau cheapskates

If I had a Knight and was fighting against Orks, I wouldn't be advancing. Let the double battlecannon shots do the damage.

Uh, why on earth would you hold back a model that can simply destroy every single choice of the ork codex by charging it? Are you that scared of a warboss lucking out on you? Thrakka is probably the only thing that can reliably kill a knight at all.

Because I don't want to get tied down stomping on boyz the whole game. A smart Ork player won't let you get near anything worth killing in CC, they'll just feed you a bunch of Boyz to get stomped. I think 2 battle cannon shots does more damage to an Ork army than getting tied up in combat.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The Hive Guard (which have a range of 18") can be wiped out in a single round of double battle cannon shooting (72" range), or at least severely diminished. Also the thing has it's 4+ inv save still, so your 2-3 rounds is being a bit hopeful, more like 3-4 rounds. Even if all their shots hit, if half of them are bounced by the save, you're looking at 12 shots to kill it, from 3 Hive Guard that's 4 turns of shooting, and that's neglecting that some shots might scatter too far from the Knight to hit it.

Oddly enough, Impaler cannons are better than Shockcannons against Knights thanks to the higher volume of fire, higher chance of a pen rather than a glance, and ability to ignore cover saves. The ignore LoS rule rule also makes it easier to stay safe to boot, with the extra range potentially giving you an extra turn of shooting.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

You need to use Gargoyles. That's the only way I can see fexes beating a Knight. Charge it with a unit of Gargoyles to pin it in place long enough for the fexes to get there and charge it. But that little combo then costs more than the Knight, will still probably end up dead, and still has a good chance of the Knight player just running away anyway (if I saw 3 fexes opposite my Knight, I'd immediately move 12" in the opposite direction so they can't reach me until turn 4 or 5, by which time they're probably dead).

Unless I missed something, the Hive Tyrant can't take crushing claws. Crushing Claws aren't on the Wargear list, so they can only be taken by models who explicitly say they can take it (Tyrant Guard, Tervigon, Haruspex or Carnifex).

I hadn't spotted that about the Claws. Makes sense that the unit who can use them best can't take them...

Gargoyles aren't allowed to charge the Knight unfortunately. You're not allowed to charge a target you can't hurt (under the vehicle rules). The smallest tarpit option here are 'stealers, at 14pts each.

Xerics wrote:I just wish i was there to see you cry more.

Congratulations on being an asshoIe, I guess.

And I think you are wrong.

First of all, you are using an expensive super-heavy walker to simulate a squadron of two leman russes. Not point efficient.

Second, stomping onto piled-in boyz causes a metric ton of casualties, much more than your battlecannon could ever hope to archive when shooting at properly spread out boyz, kannons or lootaz. You just shoot the unit of boyz, charge it, stomp it, fight and stomp it again next turn, and have most of it dead and running by the time you're allowed to shoot again.

There is literally nothing an ork player ("smart" or not) can do to stop the knight, holding it back is just silly.

Edit: Answering to AllSeeingSkink, not to xttz

Instead of assaulting it could the ork player bubble wrap it with cheap blobs so it can't get into combat with meatier targets? Or would that just allow it to shoot with impunity?

What meatier targets? Also a unit of 30 boyz isn't exactly cheap at 180 points (+ whatever you decide to waste on a nob). Also between two stubbers, double battlecannon, four attacks on the charge (S D), hammer of wrath (S 10) and stomp, it wouldn't exactly be a huge obstacle. As soon as the numbers drop below 11 they are very likely to run since the knight tends to win combat by a landslide.

I guess the question is if a dispersed mob of boys can get close enough to attempt to bubble wrap a knight. If they succeed in bubble wrapping it I highly doubt the knight is going to try shooting them point blank with an ordinance template!

barnowl wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

I cannont wait for GW to release their new version of a BRB with Escalation and Stronghold Assault rolled into it making them legal to play compeltely without question. I just wish i was there to see you cry more.

Nah, not much crying, just picker in my games. I have enough uphill fights with my nid's. I don't need more "challenge". So will keep on just playing folks that don't bring Super heavies or D Weapons.

The above quote is a failure to adapt ladies and gentlemen.

I think a well built ork list can easily handle a knight.

Power klaw attrition and the lucky battlewagon who actually makes it up the table through the side armor shots and melta fire will hurt a knight.

Handling 3-5 knights... not so much. Even orks probably can't out attrition that many hull points, that many stomps, and that many 'lucky' STR D explosions from killed knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:


The above quote is a failure to adapt ladies and gentlemen.

No, its a failure to want to spend hundreds of dollars and hundreds of man hours assembling and painting trying to chase some sort of parity in a hideously broken game run by a hideously greedy company.

 Jidmah wrote:
What meatier targets? Also a unit of 30 boyz isn't exactly cheap at 180 points (+ whatever you decide to waste on a nob). Also between two stubbers, double battlecannon, four attacks on the charge (S D), hammer of wrath (S 10) and stomp, it wouldn't exactly be a huge obstacle. As soon as the numbers drop below 11 they are very likely to run since the knight tends to win combat by a landslide.

I'm not saying I'd avoid close combat. I just wouldn't be moving toward you. Sit back and fire off 4 or 6 Battlecannon shots in to your more valuable units until you get closer (Nobz, Lootas, etc). Once you're close, charge in and start doing damage there.

It's not the same as Leman Russes. Leman Russes sit there and once you get close enough to charge them they explode because of the sensitive rear armour. The Knight does what the Leman Russes do until you're close, at which point they start stomping you instead of just exploding. The Knight does more damage with shooting than it can do in combat against a big unit of Boyz.

Not that it really matters, charge in, don't charge in, it will decimate you either way.

I dunno, I think Orks could handle a Knight if played tactically, max out your elites with 2 full squads of lootas, potential of 90 S7 shots, depending on dice rolls, around 30-50% hit, then around half of them glancing. A few rounds of shooting could give a knight a bit of a headache.

I think a well built ork list can easily handle a knight.

Power klaw attrition and the lucky battlewagon who actually makes it up the table through the side armor shots and melta fire will hurt a knight.

Right, deff rollas might work. Orks don't melta though, the best we get is S8 AP2 "Gets Hot!". However, I've struggled to take out soul grinders with orks before, because we're lacking high strength firepower and you can't really fight it in close combat due to it instant-deathing everything. The knight is pretty much two soul grinders duct-taped to each other, except for having a solution to getting out of blobs in form of stomp. It's not really overpowered, orks just don't have an answer to that type of unit.

Btw, I'm off to steal my friend's soul grinders now, duct-tape them together and field them as looted imperial knight.

Goresaw wrote:
I think a well built ork list can easily handle a knight.

Power klaw attrition and the lucky battlewagon who actually makes it up the table through the side armor shots and melta fire will hurt a knight.

Handling 3-5 knights... not so much. Even orks probably can't out attrition that many hull points, that many stomps, and that many 'lucky' STR D explosions from killed knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:


The above quote is a failure to adapt ladies and gentlemen.

No, its a failure to want to spend hundreds of dollars and hundreds of man hours assembling and painting trying to chase some sort of parity in a hideously broken game run by a hideously greedy company.

Well you guys keep playing your skirmish games all you'd like. When you're ready to play an actual war game rather than a skirmish game come talk to me. 2000 points in an army is a skirmish. its not really an army list at that point its a scouting list. If you have under 150 models per side on the field then it isn't a war. The game actually gets less broken the higher point value you have (until you add super heavies). Death stars fall more easily under the weight of fire. You should try it sometime. Tau gun line inst so fierce when you drop down 500 boyz on the table and run them right up to the Tau's face. Play a war of 7000 points of non super heavies and tell me how much more fun it was rather than plopping your scouting party on the table only to watch it get removed by a Tau scouting party because you weren't able to compete with their gun line camping nature.

Again. A knight, as in single. Yes. Maybe. And hopefully you'll have enough of an army left to handle the other 1500ish points of your opponent's army.

Three to five... you know, the knight army. Orks handling it... probably not so much.

And I wasn't refering to ork's melta capacity. I was refering to the fact that most of your battlewagons are going to end up smoking wrecks on the way up to try to kill the knight.

The knights have those melta cannons which will utterly wreck a wagon or two. As 'tough' as a wagon is supposed to be, a single pen has a 50-66% to make the thing go nuclear. And your opponent will most likely be getting side shots on it as you push it up the field to try to ram the knight. I'd expect a 3 to 1 ratio of battlewagon to knight kills. Which is fine because a knight costs 3 times as much as a battlewagon

Problem is, orks don't have Codex: Battlewagon. You can't bring 15 battlewagons.

 xttz wrote:
Gargoyles aren't allowed to charge the Knight unfortunately. You're not allowed to charge a target you can't hurt (under the vehicle rules). The smallest tarpit option here are 'stealers, at 14pts each.

Hmmm, never noticed that. It applies to walkers as well?

I guess you could fly the gargoyles around it, forcing it to charge them or be locked in place by them, but given the Knight moves 12" that again will be damned near impossible.

So the basic conclusion we are coming to is that the Knight is a pain for 'nids, lol. The only saving grace is that most nids are either too cheap to care about being blown apart, and MC aren't overly concerned about battle cannon fire. If you have any Warriors, Raveners, Hive Guard, Zoans, etc... better make sure they have a good cover save, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:
Well you guys keep playing your skirmish games all you'd like.

The funny thing about this... when everyone takes big monsters and superheavies, the game basically becomes a skirmish game again.

A 2000pt game that revolves around 3 or 4 models is more of a skirmish than a 500pt game that revolves around 20-40 models.

 randomtoaster wrote:
I dunno, I think Orks could handle a Knight if played tactically, max out your elites with 2 full squads of lootas, potential of 90 S7 shots, depending on dice rolls, around 30-50% hit, then around half of them glancing. A few rounds of shooting could give a knight a bit of a headache.

Uh, that math assumes loaded dice AND luck at the same time.

45 lootaz are an average of 90 shots, 30 hits, 5 glances, 2.5 of those unsaved an a normal knight.

9 kannons are 4.5 hits, 1.5 pens and glances, 0.75 unsaved, plus 0,125 from potential "Explodes!" results.

To two turns of shooting with about 1000 points of orks.

Goresaw wrote:
Again. A knight, as in single. Yes. Maybe. And hopefully you'll have enough of an army left to handle the other 1500ish points of your opponent's army.

That's the problem with both nids and orks. Not that you CAN'T kill it, it's that if you want to kill it, you have to invest vastly too much effort in to it and will instead get beat down by the rest of the enemy army or any other Knights they might have.

Even if a Tyranid Skyblight formation might be able to deal with 1 Knight, it still can't deal with 3 Knights, lol.

Well I don't know about you but I have enough non super heavy models of eldar to play a 9000 point game. So with no super heavies to play with its a war again. No D weapons at 9k points. I personally would have over 250 models at that point level and would be using just about every model the eldar have to offer (minus shining spears. they are the only model I don't have any of yet, and a few of the special characters I don't have yet).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 xttz wrote:
Gargoyles aren't allowed to charge the Knight unfortunately. You're not allowed to charge a target you can't hurt (under the vehicle rules). The smallest tarpit option here are 'stealers, at 14pts each.

Hmmm, never noticed that. It applies to walkers as well?

Yeah it's in the generic vehicle rules, so tanks, walkers and super-heavies are all covered. However MC's or other high toughness units aren't, so you can tarpit those as much as you like even if you can't wound them. Pretty silly and arbitrary tbh.

Oh, and please don't respond to Xerics. He's basically a bad troll at this point.

 Jidmah wrote:

 randomtoaster wrote:
I dunno, I think Orks could handle a Knight if played tactically, max out your elites with 2 full squads of lootas, potential of 90 S7 shots, depending on dice rolls, around 30-50% hit, then around half of them glancing. A few rounds of shooting could give a knight a bit of a headache.

Uh, that math assumes loaded dice AND luck at the same time.

45 lootaz are an average of 90 shots, 30 hits, 5 glances, 2.5 of those unsaved an a normal knight.

9 kannons are 4.5 hits, 1.5 pens and glances, 0.75 unsaved, plus 0,125 from potential "Explodes!" results.

To two turns of shooting with about 1000 points of orks.

And Lootas are prime targets for battle cannons. 45 Lootas are 675pts and I'm guessing the Knight could take out, what, 10 per turn, maybe more? 150+ points of dead lootas per turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:
Well I don't know about you but I have enough non super heavy models of eldar to play a 9000 point game.

....congratulations? I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. If I want to play a game with titans and hundreds of models, I'll play Epic.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 randomtoaster wrote:
I dunno, I think Orks could handle a Knight if played tactically, max out your elites with 2 full squads of lootas, potential of 90 S7 shots, depending on dice rolls, around 30-50% hit, then around half of them glancing. A few rounds of shooting could give a knight a bit of a headache.

Uh, that math assumes loaded dice AND luck at the same time.

45 lootaz are an average of 90 shots, 30 hits, 5 glances, 2.5 of those unsaved an a normal knight.

9 kannons are 4.5 hits, 1.5 pens and glances, 0.75 unsaved, plus 0,125 from potential "Explodes!" results.

To two turns of shooting with about 1000 points of orks.

And Lootas are prime targets for battle cannons. 45 Lootas are 675pts and I'm guessing the Knight could take out, what, 10 per turn, maybe more? 150+ points of dead lootas per turn.

Assuming the lootaz are not clumped and in some sort of area terrain/under a KFF, it's more like 5-7 dead per turn (10 hits when discounting scatter, wounding 8-9, 2-3 pass their cover save). Still, you point stands, since the enemy army isn't just the knight.

BRB FAQ states

Q: Can I charge an enemy unit that I can’t hurt? (p20)
A: Yes.


So I assume you can charge a knight even if you can't pen it.

And the Heavy Stubbers. 6 shots, 4 or so hits, 2 or so more kills.

What's the range on that thing? I assumed it to be out of range for shooting lootaz and instead shooting something else.

36" range. If the Lootas were in range you'd probably shoot them with it.

Goresaw wrote:
BRB FAQ states

Q: Can I charge an enemy unit that I can’t hurt? (p20)
A: Yes.


So I assume you can charge a knight even if you can't pen it.

That applies to non-vehicles, such as charging a T8 creature with a model that can only do S3 attacks.

The rules regarding vehicles are very clear:

BRB pg76 wrote:Charging a Vehicle
A unit can charge a vehicle in their Charge sub-phase. The charge move is conducted the same as charging other enemy units. However, a unit cannot charge a vehicle that it cannot hurt - it must have some possibility, no matter how small, of being able to inflict at least a glancing hit.

It's also a FAQ and not an errata, answering a general question rather than modifying a rule.

And the pyrovore goes nuclear when ID'd and shadows in the warp affects ALL enemy models, not just psykers.

Its all so badly written we just don't really know.

Goresaw wrote:
BRB FAQ states

Q: Can I charge an enemy unit that I can’t hurt? (p20)
A: Yes.


So I assume you can charge a knight even if you can't pen it.

This is a complicated question really.

That FAQ refers to the basic assault rules (p. 20)

ON P.76, the rules state that you cannot assault a vehicle you cannot hurt. Which is more specific and would then trump the general case.

That said the Walker rules state that Walkers assault and are assaulted like infantry, as in they roll charges and can be locked. This might mean that because they are assaulted like infantry (not vehicles) that you can assault them even if you cannot hurt them.

It is really a tough issue, that needs an FAQ.

Well, prepare for the Knight meta?

Start giving your sarges Power Fists so you can charge the Knight? Start taking Lascannons and Melta Guns again so you can combat it?

Refusing to play someone with these things is childish and stymies the game. I think the game is becoming *more* fun with all these new options because nobody can make just one super janky broken net-list and win ALL THE TIME. If the opponent shakes it up by bringing a big fortification or a Knight, all the more power to them!

Escalation does not belong in standard 40k. D weapons are far to powerful for this. While the knight would be fun in storyline base scenarios, as a general rule you should ask if it's ok to bring before playing with it.

OP's problem with the Tau player though just seems like the dude is a sore loser and likes his flavor of the month more than actual game play

drbored wrote:

Refusing to play someone with these things is childish and stymies the game.

You're painting with a very broad brush there, Dr. Bored, if you are in fact a REAL doctor!

I don't have a problem with the Imperial Knight, per say. I have a problem with Super Heavies in general in "normal" 40k games. IMHO, that dilutes what makes Apocalypse games special.

That, in fact, is the whole point of apocalypse. Throw down your big units! Play with an entire company or two of space marines! Drop down a 3x Warhound Titan Wolf Pack! Bring it on!

But in a normal game of 40k, I don't want to see it.

That's fine if you do. More power to you. You and I can still shake hands and go play someone else. I'm not going to call you childish for bringing the super heavy, and I expect the same consideration from you when I tell you that's not the type of game I want to play.

Cheers!

 kronk wrote:

drbored wrote:

Refusing to play someone with these things is childish and stymies the game.

You're painting with a very broad brush there, Dr. Bored, if you are in fact a REAL doctor!

I don't have a problem with the Imperial Knight, per say. I have a problem with Super Heavies in general in "normal" 40k games. IMHO, that dilutes what makes Apocalypse games special.

That, in fact, is the whole point of apocalypse. Throw down your big units! Play with an entire company or two of space marines! Drop down a 3x Warhound Titan Wolf Pack! Bring it on!

But in a normal game of 40k, I don't want to see it.

That's fine if you do. More power to you. You and I can still shake hands and go play someone else. I'm not going to call you childish for bringing the super heavy, and I expect the same consideration from you when I tell you that's not the type of game I want to play.

Cheers!

While I appreciate the cordiality, I stick by my opinion.

The Knight was, contrary to some beliefs, well designed. It takes a casual mindset, instead of this harsh black and white that people have developed.

I think we can start to accept this 'not-so-heavy-super-heavy' type of unit into the game. Riptides and Wraithknights already fit the bill with how survivable they are, for pete's sake!

In order to move forward, to accept some of these bigger things into the tournament scene, and, I hope, eventually to get Forgeworld and other things accepted so that each tournament isn't all about that One Netlist, we need to go ahead and accept the things GW is giving us for the game.

Otherwise, the game will rapidly split into those playing Everything in the game, and those playing the Core rulebook. I will bet you that those that accept the new things will have lots more fun than those that don't. They'll have broader collections, less spam, fancier conversions, and overall new ideas, while the unpleasant WAAC gamers will stick to core and their narrow-minded tournaments, trying to tweak every little point to be as spammy and monotonous as possible.

 azreal13 wrote:
I'm under no illusions that it's essentially all mine will ever be, but large models are my favorite to build and paint, so I'm ok with that.

If I get to give him a run out now and again to shake loose the (painstakingly applied by hand) rust and dirt, then I'll view it as a bonus.

Which, considering it is fundamentally a gaming piece, first and foremost, is a bit sad when you think about it.

Ha this is me all over, love my models too much to game with them.... and yes it's pretty pathetic. A knight will adorne my game room shelf some day soon..

Even more broad strokes.

I will bet you that people forced to play one way or the other will have less fun than people forcing other players to play their way!

I stick by my opinion. If you accept that not everyone wants what you want and are open minded enough to understand that some people prefer to play their own way, you'll find life to be less frustrating!

By all means play with super heavies in your own games. Just don't get your knickers in a twist when I tell you "No thanks!" As for creating a divide, we already had that for years with FW and Anti-FW, with pro/anti competitive mix

Now we have:
1. Pro FW, Pro Escalation, Pro Fluffy!
2. Pro FW, Anti Escalation, Pro Fluffy!
3. Anti FW, Pro Escalation, Pro Fluffy!
4. Anti FW, Anti Escalation, Pro Fluffy!
5. Pro FW, Pro Escalation, Pro Competitive!
6. Pro FW, Anti Escalation,Pro Competitive!
7. Anti FW, Pro Escalation,Pro Competitive!
8. Anti FW, Anti Escalation,Pro Competitive!

Yay!

drbored wrote:

 kronk wrote:

drbored wrote:

Refusing to play someone with these things is childish and stymies the game.

You're painting with a very broad brush there, Dr. Bored, if you are in fact a REAL doctor!

I don't have a problem with the Imperial Knight, per say. I have a problem with Super Heavies in general in "normal" 40k games. IMHO, that dilutes what makes Apocalypse games special.

That, in fact, is the whole point of apocalypse. Throw down your big units! Play with an entire company or two of space marines! Drop down a 3x Warhound Titan Wolf Pack! Bring it on!

But in a normal game of 40k, I don't want to see it.

That's fine if you do. More power to you. You and I can still shake hands and go play someone else. I'm not going to call you childish for bringing the super heavy, and I expect the same consideration from you when I tell you that's not the type of game I want to play.

Cheers!

While I appreciate the cordiality, I stick by my opinion.

The Knight was, contrary to some beliefs, well designed. It takes a casual mindset, instead of this harsh black and white that people have developed.

I think we can start to accept this 'not-so-heavy-super-heavy' type of unit into the game. Riptides and Wraithknights already fit the bill with how survivable they are, for pete's sake!

In order to move forward, to accept some of these bigger things into the tournament scene, and, I hope, eventually to get Forgeworld and other things accepted so that each tournament isn't all about that One Netlist, we need to go ahead and accept the things GW is giving us for the game.

Otherwise, the game will rapidly split into those playing Everything in the game, and those playing the Core rulebook. I will bet you that those that accept the new things will have lots more fun than those that don't. They'll have broader collections, less spam, fancier conversions, and overall new ideas, while the unpleasant WAAC gamers will stick to core and their narrow-minded tournaments, trying to tweak every little point to be as spammy and monotonous as possible.

I can say with certainty that you are 100% wrong on your last point. Tournaments will always be dominated by ONE list because the vast power difference in armies in this game. Codex to codex has so much swing without the addition or Escalation, Knights, and Forgeworld that just ADDING those things makes the gulf even larger. WAAC players aren't tied to anyone army and will switch as soon as the new OP shows up, so where do you get that they will be upset at a new army that can be composed of 5 super heavies?

I mean read through this topic alone and understand that three of the armies in this game will likely auto lose when faced with ONE Knight. You are arguing from an idealistic stand point and frankly not the reality for most armies. I play Tyranids, Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Space Marines, and Sisters of Battle. I am currently selling my Eldar army that I have played with numerous times. I have had Necrons, Tau, Kroot Mercenaries, Grey Knights, and more that I am probably forgetting at the moment. I have a fair grasp on most of the armies in the game and can get a good idea of how a army runs if given time to look over the codex. Two of the five armies I currently play have no good way to deal with Knights, those being Tryanids and Chaos Daemons.

I am all for adding more options and expanding on what we consider an option for standard play, but to do so without consideration for how other armies will deal with it is insanity.

My dad plays Imperial Guard and has for ten years, has hundreds of models, and two super heavies. If he runs those super heavies against my Tyranids without me being able to build a list with them in mind chances are the game is going to be completely one sided. If I know he is bringing it, design my list to include enough MCs to actually take the fire for at least two turns then the game is much more interesting for both of us. That same list wont work against his more normal list that is MSU of Plasma/Melta vets.

Auto lose and auto wins shouldn't be apart of any game, sadly in 40k it is not just reality but the new norm and what GW as a company SHOOTS for. TAC is a thing of the past and NO, no one thinks that TAC means wins against everything, it means it has a CHANCE against everything.

 kronk wrote:
Even more broad strokes.

I will bet you that people forced to play one way or the other will have less fun than people forcing other players to play their way!

I stick by my opinion. If you accept that not everyone wants what you want and are open minded enough to understand that some people prefer to play their own way, you'll find life to be less frustrating!

By all means play with super heavies in your own games. Just don't get your knickers in a twist when I tell you "No thanks!" As for creating a divide, we already had that for years with FW and Anti-FW, with pro/anti competitive mix

Now we have:
1. Pro FW, Pro Escalation, Pro Fluffy!
2. Pro FW, Anti Escalation, Pro Fluffy!
3. Anti FW, Pro Escalation, Pro Fluffy!
4. Anti FW, Anti Escalation, Pro Fluffy!
5. Pro FW, Pro Escalation, Pro Competitive!
6. Pro FW, Anti Escalation,Pro Competitive!
7. Anti FW, Pro Escalation,Pro Competitive!
8. Anti FW, Anti Escalation,Pro Competitive!

Yay!

Agreeing to disagree is fine by me.

In the end, saying "I'm angry because they selfishly want to play the way they want to play" is the exact same thing as "I'm angry because they selfishly won't play the way I want them to play."

Never get mad at another player for trying to play the way they want. If anything, blame the system that creates these divides.

I'd rather blame Goresaw.

Who is with me!?!?

Easily solution - play lower points values where things are more balanced = less of a chance of things like fielding several Knights causing problems.

Of course you always get TFG who always wants to play 2,000 points or higher to use all their toys (and they tend to be the WAAC type as well), but most people seem to prefer playing lower points games anyways. In fact I think it's a shame that more leagues and campaigns and the like don't focus on the lower end of things, like 1250 or 1000 points.

 kronk wrote:
I'd rather blame Goresaw.

Who is with me!?!?

I agree, the bastard is an idiot.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

And Lootas are prime targets for battle cannons. 45 Lootas are 675pts and I'm guessing the Knight could take out, what, 10 per turn, maybe more? 150+ points of dead lootas per turn.

If they're not in cover and bunched up maybe. In cover, with half-decent spread, you can mitigate that hugely. With some spread and cover, 3-5 a turn may be more realistic. As an IG player who has lots of experience with battlecannons, they're very easily mitigated. If it's the melta Knight, you're even better off.

Meanwhile, dump a 30 man Boyz mob into it with a Klaw Nob, and that big scary D weapon's killing off a couple worthless Boyz a turn while the Nob puts a glancing hit or two on it each round and your ~230pt unit will single-handedly destroy that nearly 400pt Knight.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Easily solution - play lower points values where things are more balanced = less of a chance of things like fielding several Knights causing problems.

Of course you always get TFG who always wants to play 2,000 points or higher to use all their toys (and they tend to be the WAAC type as well), but most people seem to prefer playing lower points games anyways. In fact I think it's a shame that more leagues and campaigns and the like don't focus on the lower end of things, like 1250 or 1000 points.

Except when it doesn't. All it takes is one MC, one Landraider, one flyer. Something that requires a dedicated amount of resources to bring down but can't be fielded in a small points game without making a very unbalanced list unbalanced.

Small point games in my view have an even greater risk of turning into a rock/paper/scissors matchup because people don't have enough points to bring all the tools they need to deal with every threat. Yet those big things I mentioned often have all the tools to win by themself against a list that isn't specifically designed to kill it.

And what kind of logic leads you to saying that TFGs and WAAC players only want to play at big points so they can use as many models as they can. I would expect every player to want to play as large a game every so often just so they can use all their stuff at once

 Watchersinthedark wrote:
While the knight would be fun in storyline base scenarios, as a general rule you should ask if it's ok to bring before playing with it.

Not just Knight. Everything. I wont play against 2++ star and probably not Ripspam in casual games. But I would gladly play against Knight because its fun. And no, he isnt OP, but people needs to play with him first. And he belongs to WH40K. Fully.

 Madcat87 wrote:


Small point games in my view have an even greater risk of turning into a rock/paper/scissors matchup because people don't have enough points to bring all the tools they need to deal with every threat. Yet those big things I mentioned often have all the tools to win by themself against a list that isn't specifically designed to kill it.

Very true. IG can bring two vendettas and plenty of troops and armor at 1k points and under. What can Dark Eldar, Sisters, Dark Angels and even CSM bring that compares?

I play Dark Eldar and honestly have no idea on how to counter Knights. No cheap stuff to tarpit them with, no hope of blowing it up in one turn, no equivalent big monsters on my side.

Even my CSM will struggle. They get melta and cultist tarpits, but can't put out enough firepower to deal with knights and the other killy stuff in many imperial lists.

And also, is it me or is the accumulation of toys for Imperial players getting even more lop-sided? Between allying IG, getting Inquisitors, Knights, Stormtroopers, Tyrannic War veterans datasheet, Marines allying with themselves, Clan Raukaan, Legion of the Damned....there's really so much choice.

Meanwhile, Chaos gets Belakor (nice), Black Legion (meh) and Crimson Slaughter (seems decent), which is just plain lazy. And Dark Eldar get a big goose egg. Hell, they won't even release models for Vect or the Baron, let alone a data slate.

well me and my buddy Cleanse_and_Burn love this game and he recently got a land-raider redeemer and i love playing against it with my marines but hate it at the same time. just keep trying to convince them that its not OP

 Madcat87 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Easily solution - play lower points values where things are more balanced = less of a chance of things like fielding several Knights causing problems.

Of course you always get TFG who always wants to play 2,000 points or higher to use all their toys (and they tend to be the WAAC type as well), but most people seem to prefer playing lower points games anyways. In fact I think it's a shame that more leagues and campaigns and the like don't focus on the lower end of things, like 1250 or 1000 points.

Except when it doesn't. All it takes is one MC, one Landraider, one flyer. Something that requires a dedicated amount of resources to bring down but can't be fielded in a small points game without making a very unbalanced list unbalanced.

Small point games in my view have an even greater risk of turning into a rock/paper/scissors matchup because people don't have enough points to bring all the tools they need to deal with every threat. Yet those big things I mentioned often have all the tools to win by themself against a list that isn't specifically designed to kill it.

And what kind of logic leads you to saying that TFGs and WAAC players only want to play at big points so they can use as many models as they can. I would expect every player to want to play as large a game every so often just so they can use all their stuff at once

Apparently im TFG that wants to play large point games. If you bring no superheavies to a large point game things become incredibly balanced. I am only missing a few special characters out of my codex and shining spears becasue they have sucked since the start of time and will continue to suck. But basically taking every unit in my codex allowsme to deal with any threat. brought a tank spammy army? too bad you dont have an answer for all my troops coming to take you down. 30 wraithguard, 30 swooping hawks and 30 fire dragons will make short work of tanks. my 80 guardians will keep moving forward and shooting with their heavy weapons as they go until they get in range of their basic weapons. You get the general idea. Large point games allow me to take every tool in my codex and at that point it becomes a game of tactics rather than "I borught anti tank but you have no tanks so now i have a wasted unit on the board and will be struggling with your troops all day."

Or, alternatively, when you can bring all your toys, you can abdicate responsibility for making choices and just throw everything on the table?

All that does is exacerbate imbalances that exist cross codex, but then, as you appear to be playing the strongest book right now, I doubt that concerns you overmuch.

 azreal13 wrote:
Or, alternatively, when you can bring all your toys, you can abdicate responsibility for making choices and just throw everything on the table?

All that does is exacerbate imbalances that exist cross codex, but then, as you appear to be playing the strongest book right now, I doubt that concerns you overmuch.

Lol my first models were a wraithlord and 4 howling banshees back in 2007 which i still own today. I didnt have alot of money then so I didnt ever pick up anything more than the codex with the intent on playing it one day. Fast forward 3 years and I finally pick it back up. I get some pretty cheap wraithguard from e-bay and then a battleforce (back when they had a warwalker and a wave serpent), an avatar, an extra wave serpent, Rangers for christmas from my wife. I started playing as soon as I got my hands on a farseer for my HQ which was days after I returned back home from my christmas trip. Since then I have collect nothing but Eldar models so i don't play a flavor of the week army like many people do. I am true to my codex and always will be.

basically I picked Eldar back nearly 7 years ago without knowing anything about the game.

 Vaktathi wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

And Lootas are prime targets for battle cannons. 45 Lootas are 675pts and I'm guessing the Knight could take out, what, 10 per turn, maybe more? 150+ points of dead lootas per turn.

If they're not in cover and bunched up maybe. In cover, with half-decent spread, you can mitigate that hugely. With some spread and cover, 3-5 a turn may be more realistic. As an IG player who has lots of experience with battlecannons, they're very easily mitigated. If it's the melta Knight, you're even better off.

Meanwhile, dump a 30 man Boyz mob into it with a Klaw Nob, and that big scary D weapon's killing off a couple worthless Boyz a turn while the Nob puts a glancing hit or two on it each round and your ~230pt unit will single-handedly destroy that nearly 400pt Knight.

Doesn't it also get a stomp? That or what exactly does stomp do?

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

And Lootas are prime targets for battle cannons. 45 Lootas are 675pts and I'm guessing the Knight could take out, what, 10 per turn, maybe more? 150+ points of dead lootas per turn.

If they're not in cover and bunched up maybe. In cover, with half-decent spread, you can mitigate that hugely. With some spread and cover, 3-5 a turn may be more realistic. As an IG player who has lots of experience with battlecannons, they're very easily mitigated. If it's the melta Knight, you're even better off.

Meanwhile, dump a 30 man Boyz mob into it with a Klaw Nob, and that big scary D weapon's killing off a couple worthless Boyz a turn while the Nob puts a glancing hit or two on it each round and your ~230pt unit will single-handedly destroy that nearly 400pt Knight.

Doesn't it also get a stomp? That or what exactly does stomp do?

Yeah, the Knight stomps. Make D3 stomps, each one is a blast marker, roll a D6 for each blast marker, on a 2-5 the models under the blast marker take a S6 AP4 hit, on a 6 any model under the blast marker is "removed from play".

So you could just place the stomp markers directly over the Nob with a Klaw.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

And Lootas are prime targets for battle cannons. 45 Lootas are 675pts and I'm guessing the Knight could take out, what, 10 per turn, maybe more? 150+ points of dead lootas per turn.

If they're not in cover and bunched up maybe. In cover, with half-decent spread, you can mitigate that hugely. With some spread and cover, 3-5 a turn may be more realistic. As an IG player who has lots of experience with battlecannons, they're very easily mitigated. If it's the melta Knight, you're even better off.

Meanwhile, dump a 30 man Boyz mob into it with a Klaw Nob, and that big scary D weapon's killing off a couple worthless Boyz a turn while the Nob puts a glancing hit or two on it each round and your ~230pt unit will single-handedly destroy that nearly 400pt Knight.

Doesn't it also get a stomp? That or what exactly does stomp do?

Yeah, the Knight stomps. Make D3 stomps, each one is a blast marker, roll a D6 for each blast marker, on a 2-5 the models under the blast marker take a S6 AP4 hit, on a 6 any model under the blast marker is "removed from play".

So you could just place the stomp markers directly over the Nob with a Klaw.

You can put the blast anywhere, however you still remove the closest models

You sure? It says:

Kerr-runch: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit.

Overrun: Each model from the target unit that is even partially under the blast marker is removed from play.

To me that says that the MODEL under the blast marker is the one that takes the hit, vs regular blast weapons where the UNIT takes a number of hits = to the number of models under the marker.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
You sure? It says:

Kerr-runch: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit.

Overrun: Each model from the target unit that is even partially under the blast marker is removed from play.

To me that says that the MODEL under the blast marker is the one that takes the hit, vs regular blast weapons where the UNIT takes a number of hits = to the number of models under the marker.

That's what I thought, but in GW when we were going through the combat with my knight, I flagged up this question and they said that it just removes the models in base contact to the amount under the blasts, regardless of if they were under it or not :/

 randomtoaster wrote:


That's what I thought, but in GW when we were going through the combat with my knight, I flagged up this question and they said that it just removes the models in base contact to the amount under the blasts, regardless of if they were under it or not :/

Which would qualify as a houserule since thats not what the rule actually says.

The rules authority of a shop manager ends at his shops doorstep. He can houserule how he wants but that doesnt change anything about the RAW.

Going back to the original point, the Knights seem pretty popular and I am sure they will get used so I shouldn't worry about it being just an ornament.

That said, it's clear that everyone doesn't like playing large games with Apocalypse units, D weapons and so on. Therefore your Knight will probably come out more on special occasions rather than be a standard part of your army for everyday games.

I have no problems with large 40k models being mostly shelf-ornaments.

I bought a necron monolith purely so I could light it up and have it sit on a shelf (I have never had a necron army) and the 40k armies I still have occupy shelf space in my shed. Since I took a dislike to the direction of the game last edition.

A new model shouldn't have to be an auto-include in your list in order to inspire you to buy one. It needs to look cool. That is all.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Going back to the original point, the Knights seem pretty popular and I am sure they will get used so I shouldn't worry about it being just an ornament.

That said, it's clear that everyone doesn't like playing large games with Apocalypse units, D weapons and so on. Therefore your Knight will probably come out more on special occasions rather than be a standard part of your army for everyday games.

To be fair not everyone likes playing against Wave Serpents, Seer Council or Riptides...................can't see any difference myself if you are rationing what your opponent s allowed to field?

IMO the difference is that Apocalypse units with D weapons etc. don't "fit" in the size of games I want to play. (Standard table size, 1,000 to 1,500 points, mostly.)

No-one can be forced to play a game of anything, though.

Daemonhammer wrote:
Unfortunately i cannot play 40k as there is nobody who does in my area, however i wouldnt really care if someone fielded one of those Imperial Knights.
2 Predator tanks with 3 lascannons each and problem solved.

I do think people are going to get a shock as they're generally understimating how much firepower it takes to bring down an AV13 4++ 6HP Super Heavy. Those two Preds will on average eventually blow it up on turn 5, after firing at it constantly all game.

Good luck when someone fields multiple Knights as a primary

 Kilkrazy wrote:
IMO the difference is that Apocalypse units with D weapons etc. don't "fit" in the size of games I want to play. (Standard table size, 1,000 to 1,500 points, mostly.)

No-one can be forced to play a game of anything, though.

no but outlawing one Codex "problem" unit whilst saying other problem units are good to to (especially when spammed) is neither fun nor fair?

60" range S7, D6+1 shot (usually TL) ignore cover guns are not exactly good for games..............

Yes, I agree, and that is why it is for me a big problem that GW have made an official codex to put D weapons into the standard game.

I don't want to play Apocalypse. That was fine when Apocalypse was a separate, optional extra and I could just play only core rules and codexes. (You can't really claim to play 40K if you don't play the core rules and codexes.)

My principle, that if the army is a standard codex I will play it, can't be maintained in the face of the new Knight Titan rules. But I still don't want to play Apocalypse, so this leaves me out on a limb.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
IMO the difference is that Apocalypse units with D weapons etc. don't "fit" in the size of games I want to play. (Standard table size, 1,000 to 1,500 points, mostly.)

No-one can be forced to play a game of anything, though.

no but outlawing one Codex "problem" unit whilst saying other problem units are good to to (especially when spammed) is neither fun nor fair?

60" range S7, D6+1 shot (usually TL) ignore cover guns are not exactly good for games..............

Maybe it's because I've not yet played against an Eldar player who spams Wave Serpents, but Serpent spam doesn't really seem like a game changer to me. It does have a decent damage output, but at the end of the day it's mostly just going to kill a few infantry models each turn. Ignore cover saves with AP- doesn't blow my mind when most things have a 5+ or better save anyway and it's mounted on a tank that's not all that hard to kill and costs 120pts. Maybe a bit under priced for what it can do, but not a game changer against most armies. The Colossus is 140pts, has a large blast AP3 barrage gun, I know it's not the same league, but the Colossus is actually going to be killing things I care about with AP3.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
IMO the difference is that Apocalypse units with D weapons etc. don't "fit" in the size of games I want to play. (Standard table size, 1,000 to 1,500 points, mostly.)

No-one can be forced to play a game of anything, though.

no but outlawing one Codex "problem" unit whilst saying other problem units are good to to (especially when spammed) is neither fun nor fair?

60" range S7, D6+1 shot (usually TL) ignore cover guns are not exactly good for games..............

Maybe it's because I've not yet played against an Eldar player who spams Wave Serpents, but Serpent spam doesn't really seem like a game changer to me. It does have a decent damage output, but at the end of the day it's mostly just going to kill a few infantry models each turn. Ignore cover saves with AP- doesn't blow my mind when most things have a 5+ or better save anyway and it's mounted on a tank that's not all that hard to kill and costs 120pts. Maybe a bit under priced for what it can do, but not a game changer against most armies. The Colossus is 140pts, has a large blast AP3 barrage gun, I know it's not the same league, but the Colossus is actually going to be killing things I care about with AP3.

Seeing a glimpse of one of your vehicles and being able to kill it reliably with side shots that ignore their cover is what makes the serpent shield so good.