http://ukitakumuki.deviantart.com/art/Black-Library-Damocles-440458999

Now, this is an awesome piece of artwork; don't get me wrong.

But, there is no way Shadowsun could survive that. Two space marine special characters in close combat. The white scars guy has wrecked her shield drone and with her screaming in pain his power sword obviously cut across her back. Whereas Shrike (raven guard captain) has a lightening claw about to go straight through her chest. Theres literally no way the character could survive, its like the split second before she gets killed. Unless that crisis battlesuit whos just looking at the fight is able to Bruce Lee both captains out of the way in a microsecond I cannot imagine how she survives this. It goes without saying that a lightening claw from a space marine through the chest would kill her. This does stretch credulity to believe that Shadowsun could survive this encounter.

Plus, as regards the tone of the artwork. It clearly shows the Imperium in the ascendence and looks like they are about to kill the tau leader and rout her army. Which goes completely against the course of what actually happens in the Agrellan campaign. It is a crushing victory for the Tau Empire and Shadowsun. Its set up as the definitive moment where the Tau seriously go on the offensive against the Imperium and beat it at its own game in a massive war. TBH I really don't like how they seem to be selling the Damocles book on the premise of bigging up the White Scars/Raven Guard combo of chapter tactics. Neither chapter is even mentioned in the Tau codex during the several descriptions of this battle and you know for a fact they're going to alter the story to not make either chapter look bad. But by all rights, they should lose this war on Agrellan badly; unless they rewrite all the canon they just established on this so that the Imperium wins. Again, I really hope the apocalypse book and associated novella anthology doesn't focus on the Imperial and space marine factions.

I also noticed that with the Imperial Knights description of the battle. Where they were mowing down the tau and beating shadowsun at Agrellan. But then not to make the knights look bad they have the knights randomly withdraw when they see riptides. Despite the fact that the tau codex makes it clear that the riptides were killing baneblades. Which are a lot more powerful than the knight titans. Then how is their exit from the war a big deal? So surely they could have beaten the knights in this situation alongside the other Imperial super heavies? But, again, its reworking canon to market newer models and make the Imperium look good when the whole point of that battle is that they lose badly.

Artistic license, Plot armor and a clock stuck just before midnight is how!

I think the crisis suit does a sudden jetpack blast, grabs her and flies to safety.

Boniface wrote:
I think the crisis suit does a sudden jetpack blast, grabs her and flies to safety.

Shrikes blades are almost touching her armor...

Chaos ex machina. She gets sucked into the warp in less than a microsecond and spitted out at her command center.

You can't actually strike blows against shadowsun. She has stealth/shrouded and thus, can't be seen. Not unless you have some sort of confounded UV light.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
You can't actually strike blows against shadowsun. She has stealth/shrouded and thus, can't be seen. Not unless you have some sort of confounded UV light.

Her camo would probably deactivate due to her armour being cut open by a power sword. Plus, both marines are obviously going for her specifically. Obviously they can see her.

You have to admit, that is a shockingly one sided fight. There aren't many foes in the game who could take on two space marine captains alone in close combat. Shadowsun, a tau, without a big battlesuit, is definetly not one of those characters. Farsight, yes. Him I could see managing it.

Maybe she drops to the floor and does a Frodo going all invisible.
Or suddenly thrusts backwards and avoids the strike then does a runner.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
You can't actually strike blows against shadowsun. She has stealth/shrouded and thus, can't be seen. Not unless you have some sort of confounded UV light.

Her camo would probably deactivate due to her armour being cut open by a power sword. Plus, both marines are obviously going for her specifically. Obviously they can see her.

You have to admit, that is a shockingly one sided fight. There aren't many foes in the game who could take on two space marine captains alone in close combat. Shadowsun, a tau, without a big battlesuit, is definetly not one of those characters. Farsight, yes. Him I could see managing it.

I'm fairly certain he was joking, the UV light part alone is obvious. But yeah, in that picture Shrike's got her.

EDIT: this is the pic on the artist's deviantart page.

Nah, Shadowsun is the chosen champion of the Big E. Ain't no Space Marine Captain can kill her.

Maybe the suit behind her thrusts into shrike at the last second knocking his strike off and she gets away.
Or maybe it's a conspiracy and Shadowsun is not the same person anymore.
Then again maybe the book is going to kill off Shadowsun so Tau players can't use her anymore for Farsight shenanigans.

Boniface wrote:
Maybe the suit behind her thrusts into shrike at the last second knocking his strike off and she gets away.
Or maybe it's a conspiracy and Shadowsun is not the same person anymore.
Then again maybe the book is going to kill off Shadowsun so Tau players can't use her anymore for Farsight shenanigans.

The scene in the pic is already inside the last second. Shrike's pose indicates that he either rushed inside her range or just landed with his jump pack, either way he's got momentum. His strike is already in motion and his claws are what, a foot away from her chest? To go off that pic alone she won't make it.

That being said I'm 100% positive the artist depicted it like this because he thought it was cool rather than as any kind of indication as to what will happen.

Boniface wrote:
Maybe the suit behind her thrusts into shrike at the last second knocking his strike off and she gets away.
Or maybe it's a conspiracy and Shadowsun is not the same person anymore.
Then again maybe the book is going to kill off Shadowsun so Tau players can't use her anymore for Farsight shenanigans.

The problem is. Whilst the crisis bodyguard could do something. He wouldn't be fast enough nor does he look in a position to stop Shrike stabbing her. Which would kill an ordinary tau once you've pierced her armor. I imagine the story might say its(somehow) just a mortal blow and the crisis suit recovers her. Because apparently this fight does actually happen in one of the short stories of the book. Bit of a spoiler TBH; she obviously loses.

Nah, if you want to use shadowsun you put her with a squad of kitted out crisis suits with tank hunters. Have them leap out of cover shoot and then redeploy 3d6 into cover for 2+ cover saves. Few drones to absorb any dangerous terrain tests. It is a brutal strategy when used in tandem with markerlights. Especially since she can infiltrate as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Maybe the suit behind her thrusts into shrike at the last second knocking his strike off and she gets away.
Or maybe it's a conspiracy and Shadowsun is not the same person anymore.
Then again maybe the book is going to kill off Shadowsun so Tau players can't use her anymore for Farsight shenanigans.

The scene in the pic is already inside the last second. Shrike's pose indicates that he either rushed inside her range or just landed with his jump pack, either way he's got momentum. His strike is already in motion and his claws are what, a foot away from her chest? To go off that pic alone she won't make it.

That being said I'm 100% positive the artist depicted it like this because he thought it was cool rather than as any kind of indication as to what will happen.

Thing is I am not sure how its meant to be cool. Its cruel. Two space marine captains on a ranged special character. Its no contest. I mean you maybe get the sense that they've rushed through the tau army in a Last Samurai type charge to try and kill her. But I don't think thats neccesarily conveyed in the artwork; the Imperials seem to have the fight in hand in the background. Whilst the surprise of her bodyguard might indicate a sudden rush I don't think this comes across if thats the "heroic" aspect of this. It just looks like 2 space marines pawning a much weaker character in close combat. I don't think we're meant to sympathise with Shadowsun in the scene so its hard to get the artists intent. Its not exactly heroic to kill shadowsun in close combat with two space marine special characters; there just isn't any challange to it. A contrast would be an Imperial Knight gutting a riptide which they have in another piece of artwork. Thats a fairly close match up and fair; with it being a heroic achievemant for a titan to kill one riptide. This just ain't.

If this book sees one of the very few female characters in the setting killed by yet another boring stupid idiotic marine, I will be very pissed.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
If this book sees one of the very few female characters in the setting killed by yet another boring stupid idiotic marine, I will be very pissed.

Actually they are selling another audiobook which I suspect follows on from this fight thats in the novella. In it the White Scars are also chasing down Shadowsun to hunt her down.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/shape-of-the-hunt-mp3.html

You know. I think they might actually do it. Not like its never happened before. They killed Lelith in an old Deathwatch book. It would be a bit odd to sell two works of fiction about trying to kill Shadowsun and have them fail both times. Unless they make the point that this is a tragic failure on both instances or do it from Shadowsuns perspective for the novella and have the hunt be a tragic failure; they would almost have to do it to avoid cheating readers.

When the Ordo Artsies were commissioned with depicting the battle with an Oilicus Paintium they tried to keep it as accurate as possible.
The original draft of two lumbering brutes staring off into the distance while fusion shots from an invisible assailant peppered their lines was poorly received.

A second draft went immediately into works done by a second team (first team all committed suicide by heresy) displaying their beloved heroes fighting the xenos scum in a more suitable manner befitting gentlemen of such noble stature.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Actually they are selling another audiobook which I suspect follows on from this fight thats in the novella. In it the White Scars are also chasing down Shadowsun to hunt her down.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/shape-of-the-hunt-mp3.html

You know. I think they might actually do it. Not like its never happened before. They killed Lelith in an old Deathwatch book. It would be a bit odd to sell two works of fiction about trying to kill Shadowsun and have them fail both times. Unless they make the point that this is a tragic failure on both instances or do it from Shadowsuns perspective for the novella and have the hunt be a tragic failure; they would almost have to do it to avoid cheating readers.

I really, really need to stop caring, and play/read Iron Kingdom stuff instead.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
If this book sees one of the very few female characters in the setting killed by yet another boring stupid idiotic marine, I will be very pissed.

Actually they are selling another audiobook which I suspect follows on from this fight thats in the novella. In it the White Scars are also chasing down Shadowsun to hunt her down.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/shape-of-the-hunt-mp3.html

You know. I think they might actually do it. Not like its never happened before. They killed Lelith in an old Deathwatch book. It would be a bit odd to sell two works of fiction about trying to kill Shadowsun and have them fail both times. Unless they make the point that this is a tragic failure on both instances or do it from Shadowsuns perspective for the novella and have the hunt be a tragic failure; they would almost have to do it to avoid cheating readers.

When did they kill Lelith? Do you remember the name of the book?

 Orblivion wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
If this book sees one of the very few female characters in the setting killed by yet another boring stupid idiotic marine, I will be very pissed.

Actually they are selling another audiobook which I suspect follows on from this fight thats in the novella. In it the White Scars are also chasing down Shadowsun to hunt her down.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/shape-of-the-hunt-mp3.html

You know. I think they might actually do it. Not like its never happened before. They killed Lelith in an old Deathwatch book. It would be a bit odd to sell two works of fiction about trying to kill Shadowsun and have them fail both times. Unless they make the point that this is a tragic failure on both instances or do it from Shadowsuns perspective for the novella and have the hunt be a tragic failure; they would almost have to do it to avoid cheating readers.

When did they kill Lelith? Do you remember the name of the book?

Ugh I can't sorry. It was really old and they don't confirm that she died. But they do the whole thing where the villain is in an exploding facility with the warp pouring in. So its really just a comic book death. It was in the Deathwatch novel series. BTW it was a really bad book.

Honestly though, I don't know whether to be glad they're giving the character this much attention or despairing that they could kill her off in an audiobook to make White Scars look cool.

They added a TON of lore and background stuff about her in the new codex alone. Then went on to expand all of that in the background of other codexes and this whole inter-related series of items. Strange considering she has a really old model.

Also guys, Shadowsun does have an invulnerable save. And bodyguards are decent in close combat. 3 S5AP- attacks is deece.

She also had a book titled after her and revolving around her. I was tempted to read it, but couldn't get past the synopsis.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Also guys, Shadowsun does have an invulnerable save. And bodyguards are decent in close combat. 3 S5AP- attacks is deece.

Well, I guess one of her shield drones is clearly still there in the background. Depends on how the artist think shield drones work though. Game wise, they can work as ablative wounds and confer inv saves. But lore wise I think they tend to project a bubble and probably wouldn't work in close combat like that. But yes, if the logic is that it provides her a 3+ inv save then she could survive that attack and jet pack away.

In game terms I that she got smacked with the sword, then Shrike whiffs his attacks, or only does a single wound, end of turn 7, everyone goes home happy.

In universe, yeah, she's getting a beat down. Perhaps they leave her for dead thinking the four new ventilation holes in her chest have killed her and she survives?

EDIT: Actually looking closer, that sword doesn't seem to be wounding her, it lops off part of her suit, but that arc means it's not slicing into her proper.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
In game terms I that she got smacked with the sword, then Shrike whiffs his attacks, or only does a single wound, end of turn 7, everyone goes home happy.

In universe, yeah, she's getting a beat down. Perhaps they leave her for dead thinking the four new ventilation holes in her chest have killed her and she survives?

Well. In game terms if it was me. Shrike and Khan would never get in close combat with her. I'd jump within 12 inches of them. Markerlight the squad to take away their pesky stealth rules and up BS. Then proceed to hit them with five str8 ap2 shots and 6 twin linked str6 ap2 shots before jumping 3d6 away from them. Then repeat the same thing next turn...

In response to your edit

Yeah a bit of the jet pack. Probs not flying away either then.

Farsight shows up Tuxedo Mask style to save her? Oh wait, wrong anime.

"Arigato, Shovah-kun..."

I mean seriously the marines claw gauntlet is bigger than her armoured chest. This is abuse.

The picture is a point of view image drawn from the perspective of a big battle suit as he unloads both weapons on the two space marine captains?

It's just like a comic book. The cover is not in any way representative of the actual action going on inside.

How many comic books show the whole super team of good guys at the villains feet as he laughs or two good guys fighting to the death against each other when on the inside the team barely gets smacked around a bit and the two good guys have an argument over something trivial?

Neither of them have eternal warrior and she has a fusion blaster.
Oh, and Shadowsun has a Sheild generator

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
It's just like a comic book. The cover is not in any way representative of the actual action going on inside.

How many comic books show the whole super team of good guys at the villains feet as he laughs or two good guys fighting to the death against each other when on the inside the team barely gets smacked around a bit and the two good guys have an argument over something trivial?

Sounds like you grew up reading the Silver Age.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
In game terms I that she got smacked with the sword, then Shrike whiffs his attacks, or only does a single wound, end of turn 7, everyone goes home happy.

In universe, yeah, she's getting a beat down. Perhaps they leave her for dead thinking the four new ventilation holes in her chest have killed her and she survives?

Well. In game terms if it was me. Shrike and Khan would never get in close combat with her. I'd jump within 12 inches of them. Markerlight the squad to take away their pesky stealth rules and up BS. Then proceed to hit them with five str8 ap2 shots and 6 twin linked str6 ap2 shots before jumping 3d6 away from them. Then repeat the same thing next turn...

In response to your edit

Yeah a bit of the jet pack. Probs not flying away either then.

No, its a antenna. you can see it on the model. Her jetpack is a bit more integral, not a separate piece like crisis suits'.

nareik wrote:
The picture is a point of view image drawn from the perspective of a big battle suit as he unloads both weapons on the two space marine captains?

That made me chuckle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
It's just like a comic book. The cover is not in any way representative of the actual action going on inside.

How many comic books show the whole super team of good guys at the villains feet as he laughs or two good guys fighting to the death against each other when on the inside the team barely gets smacked around a bit and the two good guys have an argument over something trivial?

Oh good god I know. It really put me off comics that they kept doing that with the unrepresentative front covers.

Pretty sure Shadowsun is the villain here though. You've got two captains from "good" chapters trying stop an alien warlord. Plus she has the whole villainous screaming in frustrated rage as her wicked plans are foiled. You can almost hear her shouting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EnsUeR2MyI

1.) She might remember what that jetpack on her back is for.
2.) She might remember that a plasma gun can not only be used in close combat

Then again, the novel Savage Scars was bolter porn of the worst sort. The Imperium wants a genocide on a Tau homeworld, Tau flee and Space marines slaughter as many fleeing Tau as possible. Tau are characterised in two ways: Those that splatter by a projectile and those that splatter by a close combat weapon.
Also, the short novel Shadowsun had a melancholic undertone, so I wouldn't rule out GW ripping her to pieces.

She survives because Shadowsun doesn't take an XV8 bodyguard. So there's 6 stealth suits somewhere in that picture packing 2 fusion blasters and 4 burst cannons which are locked onto the space marines.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
She survives because Shadowsun doesn't take an XV8 bodyguard. So there's 6 stealth suits somewhere in that picture packing 2 fusion blasters and 4 burst cannons which are locked onto the space marines.

Actually now she is an independent character she can accompany a crisis squad even if she takes drones. Its what makes her so effective. Those crisis suits in the background are her bodyguards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kroothawk wrote:
1.) She might remember what that jetpack on her back is for.
2.) She might remember that a plasma gun can not only be used in close combat

Then again, the novel Savage Scars was bolter porn of the worst sort. The Imperium wants a genocide on a Tau homeworld, Tau flee and Space marines slaughter as many fleeing Tau as possible. Tau are characterised in two ways: Those that splatter by a projectile and those that splatter by a close combat weapon.
Also, the short novel Shadowsun had a melancholic undertone, so I wouldn't rule out GW ripping her to pieces.

Courage and Honour was worse. One space marine company and a single guard regiment demolishes this huge tau invasion despite being outnumbered 20:1.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
She survives because Shadowsun doesn't take an XV8 bodyguard. So there's 6 stealth suits somewhere in that picture packing 2 fusion blasters and 4 burst cannons which are locked onto the space marines.

Actually now she is an independent character she can accompany a crisis squad even if she takes drones. Its what makes her so effective. Those crisis suits in the background are her bodyguards.

Yes, but if she is in a uit of stealth suits they all get sworn protector (the ponly thing different between bodygaurds and crisis shas'vres)

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Actually they are selling another audiobook which I suspect follows on from this fight thats in the novella. In it the White Scars are also chasing down Shadowsun to hunt her down.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/shape-of-the-hunt-mp3.html

You know. I think they might actually do it. Not like its never happened before. They killed Lelith in an old Deathwatch book. It would be a bit odd to sell two works of fiction about trying to kill Shadowsun and have them fail both times. Unless they make the point that this is a tragic failure on both instances or do it from Shadowsuns perspective for the novella and have the hunt be a tragic failure; they would almost have to do it to avoid cheating readers.

I really, really need to stop caring, and play/read Iron Kingdom stuff instead.

Yes.

Yes, you do indeed.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
She survives because Shadowsun doesn't take an XV8 bodyguard. So there's 6 stealth suits somewhere in that picture packing 2 fusion blasters and 4 burst cannons which are locked onto the space marines.

Those crisis suits in the background are her bodyguards.

Yes, but if she is in a uit of stealth suits they all get sworn protector (the ponly thing different between bodygaurds and crisis shas'vres)

Well. She can take full legit crisis suit bodyguards with sworn protector as well. But I find its unneccesary because she avoids being hit on a 2+ anyway for being an independent character and it means you can take a bigger squad of crisis suits for her to boost with her abilities. For me, stealth suits don't pack enough firepower, are too expensive pts wise and are too fragile' especially since Shadowsun confers her stealth n warlord abilities to whatever squad she joins.

Being that a rail weapon shot would pass through this 'picture' much quicker than Shrike's claw would fall...it is entirely possible that Tau fire knocks Shrike back before he can strike the blow.

Better question: why should we care? Are we supposed to be afraid of Shadowsun being killed off in the story and permanently removed from the game, rules and all?

 Wilytank wrote:
Better question: why should we care? Are we supposed to be afraid of Shadowsun being killed off in the story and permanently removed from the game, rules and all?

Well, she didn't really have any background or lore in the old edition of the codex. Then in this edition they added a lot of stuff to her backstory as well as giving her pivotal role in winning the war of confederation and the Agrellan campaign as part of the 3rd Sphere expansion. In old editions this was much more threadbare and less embellished. They've then made all this other stuff and references to this fight. It all seems to be part of building a more shared universe and ongoing backstory between the different publications.

IMO they probably wouldn't build up a character and then kill said character off in a short story which most people won't read. Its ultimately meant to be a promo to get people buying riptides, tau armies, white scars and raven guard; plus Knight titans. They probably felt that putting a special named character as the focus would be cooler/more unique than a random Shas O.

Nobodies asking you to care. I am more bemused at how you have an epic image which ultimately shows two marines bullying a weaker xenos character as if its this grand encounter. I just think its very representative of how things work in the 40k verse where you have bolter porn with the space marines being powerful and easily winning. Personally I would prefer if blac library did more to develop stories around their xenos characters(who aren't eldar) rather than feeling they have to always have humans and in particular space marines be the most important thing going on.

Thats some nice lookout sir's mam, tuna

So now we're blasting art for not being accurate to the tabletop then?

Okay, if that is the case, wouldn't that make the art a stunning vision of Shadowsun JSJing? And hell why is Shrike even in the book given how crap assault is now, amirite?

 curran12 wrote:
So now we're blasting art for not being accurate to the tabletop then?

Okay, if that is the case, wouldn't that make the art a stunning vision of Shadowsun JSJing? And hell why is Shrike even in the book given how crap assault is now, amirite?

No I am just replying to some rules things. Thats an off topic thing.

Its more because this artwork isn't really a fight with opponents duelling it out with the outcome in the balance. You have one helpless character about to be coup de grace by a space marine. The art shows you the killing blow being made. This makes it impossible to imagine Shadowsun surviving.

Don't get me wrong. Its an amazing piece of art and as I said before I like that Shadowsun has gotten this much attention and been associated with recent releases. But that image is an execution not a fight.

Even if Shadowsun dies on a Space Marine blade, that wouldn't necessarily pull her from the Codex. Captain Tycho is unequivocably dead but he's still in the BA book. His page even describes how it happens.

But yeah. The only way she lives is if the claws don't kill her outright and just put her down in critical condition, then the rest of the cadre manage to drive off the Captains before they can secure the kill. I could see GW doing that, having her do the whole near death experience and wringing it for all the drama and terrible writing they can.

Anyone who thinks Shadowsun is going to actually die in this story is an idiot.

Yes, she should get cut to pieces against a duo who have beaten a daemon prince in close combat before, but she won't. With Farsight off in the Enclaves, she's the flagship character of the Tau Empire.

Anyway, it's a picture, which is just a single-snap shot in time. With her footing as it is it's feasible for her to bring her right foot back and to her left, side-stepping Shrike's blow completely, at which point if she were smart, she'd use that vastly superior to any Imperium-tech jetpack to go skyborne and rain down hell upon the two captains, or leave.

The way she's leaning back would make that side-step pretty damn difficult though. I've never understood why Tau prefer to have their weapons underslung rather than shoulder-mounted, so that they can lean into their shots.

- - - - - - -

Also, Lelith was killed in one of the Salamander novels.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Yes.

Yes, you do indeed.

Do not worry, I would still come back to bother you .

 Wilytank wrote:
Are we supposed to be afraid of Shadowsun being killed off in the story and permanently removed from the game, rules and all?

Not from the game, it allows you to play dead characters (especially now with HH), but from the lore, yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Anyone who thinks Shadowsun is going to actually die in this story is an idiot.

Uh, thanks for the compliment, I guess…

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Anyone who thinks Shadowsun is going to actually die in this story is an idiot.

Yes, she should get cut to pieces against a duo who have beaten a daemon prince in close combat before, but she won't. With Farsight off in the Enclaves, she's the flagship character of the Tau Empire.

Anyway, it's a picture, which is just a single-snap shot in time. With her footing as it is it's feasible for her to side-step to the left and make Shrike whiff completely, at which point if she were smart, she'd use that vastly superior to any Imperium-tech jetpack to go skyborne and rain down hell upon the two captains, or leave.

Well we actually know she doesn't die in THIS story because Black library has ANOTHER white scars trying to murder shadowsun book.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/shape-of-the-hunt-mp3.html

They won't be milking it for a near death epxerience because the stories will be from the space marines perspectives.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Neither of them have eternal warrior and she has a fusion blaster.
Oh, and Shadowsun has a Sheild generator

And both Captains have Iron Halos...

 ace101 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Neither of them have eternal warrior and she has a fusion blaster.
Oh, and Shadowsun has a Sheild generator

And both Captains have Iron Halos...

Assuming that she uses her drones to re-roll ones that's a 41% chance to kill at least one and a 16% to kill both. If she focuses on only one of them that's an 81% chance to kill. That's factoring in the iron halo. Without it it's a 65% to kill both, 81% to kill one, 162% to kill one with focus.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
162% to kill one with focus.

Your math is wrong.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
162% to kill one with focus.

Your math is wrong.

Without Iron Halo and with re-rolling ones its a 35/36 chance to hit, a 5/6 chance to wound with two shots that's 2((35/36)(5/6))=1.62037037≈162%

You can never reach or exceed 100% as long as random dice rolls are included. What you mean is probably that she'd kill 1,62 captains on average.

You do not understand. If you find that the chances for anything to happen are greater than 1 (except if said event is “Some marines will betray”. This can go as far as over nine thousand !), then your maths are wrong.

Apparently you are computing the expected number of kills. Which, frankly, does not make much sense.
If you want to compute the chance of killing one of those miserable marines, you should work that way :
The chance of a marine being killed is 1-chances of a marine surviving.
The chance of a marine surviving is the chance of a marine surviving the first shot times the chance of him surviving the second shot knowing that he survived the first shot.
The chance of a marine surviving the first shot is 1- the chance of him dying to the first shot.

The correct formula is 1-( [1-(35/36×5/6)]² ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
End result is 44975 chances out of 46 656 to kill that marine dead.
Decimal approximation : 0.9639703360768175582990397805212620027434842249657064

Also, Lelith was killed in one of the Salamander novels.

Are you thinking of Lyythe in Nocturne - Lleith was killed in a really old BL novel I think but I can't recal which one.

With Shadowsun - well maybe GW think there are already too many female characters..................sarcasm

Oxayotl, I see why you say 'sisters of spite'. xC
Rarely have I seen such butthurt, although partially justified.

 Mr Morden wrote:
With Shadowsun - well maybe GW think there are already too many female characters..................sarcasm

Cannot risk the precious marines getting cooties, can we ?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Oxayotl, I see why you say 'sisters of spite'. xC

Yeah, I am not hiding anything, it is displayed for all to see !
It is Sisters of Bitter, though. Sounds closer to Sisters of Battle. But yeah, Acts of Spite.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Rarely have I seen such butthurt, although partially justified.

Only partially ?

Easy the guy in white his sword is stuck in a rock, Guy with blades isn't actually striking he is slipping on a banana peel and Shadowsun just jump packs out......simple as that.

Or its just a nice piece of art and it doesn't matter how shadowsun survives haha

Btw Khan is killing a drone not her. That drone is messed up.
Still what could happen is Shadowsun engages a single thruster spinning her just millimetres out of reach just scarring up her armour (counts as invulnerable save), the crisis suit blasts forward knocking shrike back but sacrificing itself. Then Khan follows up with another swing, but Shadowsun facing him (from the turn) blasts him, knocking him away. Meanwhile using her split fire rule she fires at Shrike.
Hit jump pack get hit and in the confusion she engages her stealth field to vanish.

Bit off topic but more stuff from the artist


http://ukitakumuki.deviantart.com/art/Black-Library-The-Shape-of-the-Hunt-440917248

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Courage and Honour was worse. One space marine company and a single guard regiment demolishes this huge tau invasion despite being outnumbered 20:1.

Yes, the famous novel where a big interstellar invasion force drops orbital landers, anti-grav tanks and jump pack suits and then desperately fights for a bridge to cross a river

Best part of this picture is the Tau with white markings clearly thinking.

"Screw her I want the promotion."

That crisis suit has it's arms hidden behind the combat scene.
For all we know he's got the trigger pulled on twin plasma rifles to at least knock them away before they can land a hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Courage and Honour was worse. One space marine company and a single guard regiment demolishes this huge tau invasion despite being outnumbered 20:1.

Yes, the famous novel where a big interstellar invasion force drops orbital landers, anti-grav tanks and jump pack suits and then desperately fights for a bridge to cross a river

If the Tau and space marines don't fight and die for pretty scenery, then who will?

Only partially ?

Yes.

I agree that Marines get more than their fair share of spotlight, for sure, to the detriment of those who could use some attention, like Battle Sisters. I can certainly see why this can be frustrating.

BUT

Taking this fact and then using it to excuse cheap butthurt flamebaits (e.g, 'nothing is gauranteed except Marines falling') is overreacting and rather unnecessary, unless it's just trolling, in which case the faults should be obvious.

Sorry for the derailing. Carry on.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Taking this fact and then using it to excuse cheap butthurt flamebaits (e.g, 'nothing is gauranteed except Marines falling') is overreacting and rather unnecessary, unless it's just trolling, in which case the faults should be obvious.

That was obviously meant in jest, because of our discussion on that other thread. You certainly did not understood it literally.

The Crisis Suit steps backwards onto the Marine captain's cloak and they both fall over.

The first Marine drops his sword and falls on it and is killed.

The Battlesuit falls on the other Marine and pins him with his weight. Shadowsun shoots the Marine with two fusion guns.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Only partially ?

Yes.

I agree that Marines get more than their fair share of spotlight, for sure, to the detriment of those who could use some attention, like Battle Sisters. I can certainly see why this can be frustrating.

BUT

Taking this fact and then using it to excuse cheap butthurt flamebaits (e.g, 'nothing is gauranteed except Marines falling') is overreacting and rather unnecessary, unless it's just trolling, in which case the faults should be obvious.

Sorry for the derailing. Carry on.

I would be okay with Imperials owning Tau. But looking at that image you would never think that the Tau actually win a crushing victory on Agrellan; which is canon. Its purely been altered because they didn't want to show an image with the space marines losing and instead do an image which doesn't fit the events its meant to represent. If this were the cover of COurage and Honour it would be a very accurate depiction. But the Tau win the battle and the third sphere expansion drives deeper into Imperial space. That image makes it look like the Tau get hurled back by the victorious armies of humanity. The only excuse for that is that they want to make the White Scars and Raven Guard look good. Theres very little to indicate the Imperium is losing that war badly.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I would be okay with Imperials owning Tau. But looking at that image you would never think that the Tau actually win a crushing victory on Agrellan; which is canon. […]

He is not speaking about the image, he is speaking about my snarky comment here :

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
You do not understand. If you find that the chances for anything to happen are greater than 1 (except if said event is “Some marines will betray”. This can go as far as over nine thousand !), then your maths are wrong.

Yeah, it was stupid, but it was not meant to be taken seriously.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Only partially ?

Yes.

I agree that Marines get more than their fair share of spotlight, for sure, to the detriment of those who could use some attention, like Battle Sisters. I can certainly see why this can be frustrating.

BUT

Taking this fact and then using it to excuse cheap butthurt flamebaits (e.g, 'nothing is gauranteed except Marines falling') is overreacting and rather unnecessary, unless it's just trolling, in which case the faults should be obvious.

Sorry for the derailing. Carry on.

I would be okay with Imperials owning Tau. But looking at that image you would never think that the Tau actually win a crushing victory on Agrellan; which is canon. Its purely been altered because they didn't want to show an image with the space marines losing and instead do an image which doesn't fit the events its meant to represent. If this were the cover of COurage and Honour it would be a very accurate depiction. But the Tau win the battle and the third sphere expansion drives deeper into Imperial space. That image makes it look like the Tau get hurled back by the victorious armies of humanity. The only excuse for that is that they want to make the White Scars and Raven Guard look good. Theres very little to indicate the Imperium is losing that war badly.

Actually, if you look more closely, the Imperium is definitely taking a beating. There is lots of dead and wounded Astartes laying around and there is a huge artillery blast that makes short work of that Imperial Guardsman. The Imperials are also fending of attacks from all sides. It looks more like the Imperium is making a heroic last stand rather than decisively winning.

I disagree. Because Shadowsun is in close combat with two space marine captains. How would that ever happen during a last stand ? Who she voluntarily go there ?
It looks like some kind of ambush to murder her. And really, having two marines gang on her from both side make them look like bullies much more than heroes.

That doesn't really explain the heaps of dead Astartes all over the picture though.

Honestly, it seems more likely that it was the Tau who sprang the ambush than the other way around. There's no reason for why a Devastator marine would be that close to the enemy if it was the Astartes with the initiative, and if you look at the marines in the background, they're in a circle formation shooting in all directions. That implies pretty heavily that they're surrounded, which wouldn't be the case if they were the assaulting force.

What seems more likely to me, is that it was Shadowsun and a mobile force of drones and her bodyguard suits who jumped the Astartes force, which is being led by Kahn. Shryke, who's a stealth master and who Shadowsun didn't even know was on the battlefield, manages to get the jump on her, and while she's distracted by him, Kahn moves in to flank.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I disagree. Because Shadowsun is in close combat with two space marine captains. How would that ever happen during a last stand ? Who she voluntarily go there ?
It looks like some kind of ambush to murder her. And really, having two marines gang on her from both side make them look like bullies much more than heroes.

Maybe she had a terminal case of the dumb.
It's not like strategy or tactics play a huge part in 40k.

Ohh no, she dies, and dies horribly. But what they don't tell you is that Shadowsun is not a name, but a title. They have 4 - 5 shadowsuns ready down the pipe line. Young girls taught from birth and ready to step into this prestigious appointment when their number is called. They are brainwashed into believing the backstory of shadowsun is their backstory. Its a very old trick of the Etherials, and a good one, and IMO perfectly fluffy in how a race like the Tau moves forward.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Ohh no, she dies, and dies horribly. But what they don't tell you is that Shadowsun is not a name, but a title. They have 4 - 5 shadowsuns ready down the pipe line. Young girls taught from birth and ready to step into this prestigious appointment when their number is called. They are brainwashed into believing the backstory of shadowsun is their backstory. Its a very old trick of the Etherials, and a good one, and IMO perfectly fluffy in how a race like the Tau moves forward.

That is actually a pretty interesting idea

 BlaxicanX wrote:
That doesn't really explain the heaps of dead Astartes all over the picture though.

It explains perfectly the two dead white scars : setting up an assassination/ambush does not mean nobody will try to shoot at you.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Ohh no, she dies, and dies horribly. But what they don't tell you is that Shadowsun is not a name, but a title. They have 4 - 5 shadowsuns ready down the pipe line. Young girls taught from birth and ready to step into this prestigious appointment when their number is called. They are brainwashed into believing the backstory of shadowsun is their backstory. Its a very old trick of the Etherials, and a good one, and IMO perfectly fluffy in how a race like the Tau moves forward.

That is actually a pretty interesting idea

Yeah, we need more female characters dying in droves, incapable of accomplishing anything.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Ohh no, she dies, and dies horribly. But what they don't tell you is that Shadowsun is not a name, but a title. They have 4 - 5 shadowsuns ready down the pipe line. Young girls taught from birth and ready to step into this prestigious appointment when their number is called. They are brainwashed into believing the backstory of shadowsun is their backstory. Its a very old trick of the Etherials, and a good one, and IMO perfectly fluffy in how a race like the Tau moves forward.

That is actually a pretty interesting idea

Yeah, we need more female characters dying in droves, incapable of accomplishing anything.

I didn't say anything like that, unless you mean that all Tau are female and that all Tau are incapable of accomplishing anything.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
You do not understand. If you find that the chances for anything to happen are greater than 1 (except if said event is “Some marines will betray”. This can go as far as over nine thousand !), then your maths are wrong.

Apparently you are computing the expected number of kills. Which, frankly, does not make much sense.
If you want to compute the chance of killing one of those miserable marines, you should work that way :
The chance of a marine being killed is 1-chances of a marine surviving.
The chance of a marine surviving is the chance of a marine surviving the first shot times the chance of him surviving the second shot knowing that he survived the first shot.
The chance of a marine surviving the first shot is 1- the chance of him dying to the first shot.

The correct formula is 1-( [1-(35/36×5/6)]² ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
End result is 44975 chances out of 46 656 to kill that marine dead.
Decimal approximation : 0.9639703360768175582990397805212620027434842249657064

Do you really think it matters? Or that I really care?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
That doesn't really explain the heaps of dead Astartes all over the picture though.

It explains perfectly the two dead white scars : setting up an assassination/ambush does not mean nobody will try to shoot at you.
.

Not really. See my edit.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Ohh no, she dies, and dies horribly. But what they don't tell you is that Shadowsun is not a name, but a title. They have 4 - 5 shadowsuns ready down the pipe line. Young girls taught from birth and ready to step into this prestigious appointment when their number is called. They are brainwashed into believing the backstory of shadowsun is their backstory. Its a very old trick of the Etherials, and a good one, and IMO perfectly fluffy in how a race like the Tau moves forward.

Well she did/does have sisters...

Oh no the side in the ascendence can still take losses. There an old Damocles Gulf Crusade image where the space marines are clearly being driven back and losing but you can still see one sergent slicing his chainsword through the gut of a crisis suit.

A few dead marines doesn't alter the fact that Shadowsun and her two bodyguards are the only tau who aren't drones in view surrounded by Imperial soldiers who outnumber them. I assume she killed one of the marines at the base of the thing. But, killing one grunt before being double teamed by 2 captains is a definite defeat for the Tau. If anything Shadowsun is shown in a last stand with her bodyguards back to back with her.

The artist obviously didn't appreciate that its not a fair fight to have one let alone two close combat monster space marines fighting one of the weakest characters. This isn't a chaos lord or a hive tyrant. It gives a very bad impression and looks more like bullying than heroic.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I didn't say anything like that

You did not, and I do not think you even thought about it. But Shadowsun is among the only female special character along with Celestine, Lelith and Lady Malys, and turning her into some propaganda symbol rather than some actually powerful individual…
Not something I would like.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I didn't say anything like that

You did not, and I do not think you even thought about it. But Shadowsun is among the only female special character along with Celestine, Lelith and Lady Malys, and turning her into some propaganda symbol rather than some actually powerful individual…
Not something I would like.

No, 40k is lacking in good female characters, I agree. But the idea would extend to all Tau characters, not just Shadowsun. All Tau 'heroes' are propaganda symbols. I find that to be an interesting idea, it would go more into how the ethereals keep the Tau under control.

http://majesticchicken.deviantart.com/art/The-Scythes-264327202

Here it is. This is a piece of artwork where the tau are shown in the ascendance and winning. Tau are still being killed, but the marines are obviously reeling and losing. It tells me that even the Emperors Space Marines could not save the Damocles Gulf Crusade; which is the purpose of the image. So just because a few marines are dead in the Shadowsun image means little. They've won. They've killed Shadowsun and driven them off Agrellan. Thats what the image tells me.

What about Farsight, then ?

The artist obviously didn't appreciate that its not a fair fight to have one let alone two close combat monster space marines fighting one of the weakest characters. This isn't a chaos lord or a hive tyrant. It gives a very bad impression and looks more like bullying than heroic.

But reading the description that the artist posted below the pic, its just her interpretation of the brief she was sent by someone in GW which said a "2vs1 melee between khan, shrike and SS".
Who knows how long or detailed the brief was, it could have mapped out the whole scene or been a one liner.
Hence the artist has to interpret it and come up with something that gets signed off and greenlighted by gw/bl.
Its quite possible the artist has some knowledge of model stats and abilities but equally as likely to be paid a commission and simply needing to get something finished by a deadline.
I wouldnt read too much into it, there is much worse artwork out there.

Don't know if this has been mentioned before in response to the OP.... but there are 2 Crisis Suits right there. The Tau may not be very good in CC, but it doesn't take Bruce Lee to punt a one-half-ton Space Marine out of the way with a multi-ton walking tank.

 Psienesis wrote:
Don't know if this has been mentioned before in response to the OP.... but there are 2 Crisis Suits right there. The Tau may not be very good in CC, but it doesn't take Bruce Lee to punt a one-half-ton Space Marine out of the way with a multi-ton walking tank.

Actually I myself said the crisis suit could Bruce Lee (those exact words) Shrike out of the way. But hes not in a position to do that as the lightening claw is about to go through Sahdowsuns chest and kill her. Nowhere near that quick and his "look" indicates surprise rather than action. It could just be a spacing issue and really shrike should be further away than he is. The artist couldn't fit everything in or wanted it to be more close quarters than was necessary.

Ratius, it is a guy, and he is familiar with the settings (see http://ukitakumuki.deviantart.com/art/Black-Library-The-Shape-of-the-Hunt-440917248 ).
Agree with the rest of what you said.

It's also possible that the entire picture is just an artistic interpretation to represent the struggle of the story. Which is about how two Space Marines know they are about to face defeat in the face of overwhelming firepower, but are intent on killing Shadowsun above all else in their battle.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Don't know if this has been mentioned before in response to the OP.... but there are 2 Crisis Suits right there. The Tau may not be very good in CC, but it doesn't take Bruce Lee to punt a one-half-ton Space Marine out of the way with a multi-ton walking tank.

Actually I myself said the crisis suit could Bruce Lee (those exact words) Shrike out of the way. But hes not in a position to do that as the lightening claw is about to go through Sahdowsuns chest and kill her. Nowhere near that quick and his "look" indicates surprise rather than action. It could just be a spacing issue and really shrike should be further away than he is. The artist couldn't fit everything in or wanted it to be more close quarters than was necessary.

Hard to read emotion from a thing who's face is a black box with a single blue eye-light. Looks to me like it's looking at Mr. Lightning Claw like "What is this bit of fluff here?" and is just going to punt the dude for a 500-yard field goal, and is going to deliver a backhanded pimp-slap to the side of Whitey's dome there.

Actually looking closer at the image you can see lines on her chest and legs where the lightening claw has slashed across it. I also think its cut across her face as well. Maybe the artist is trying to imply that fight is lasting very long and is obviously majorly exaggerating how much protection that armor would offer against lightening claws wielded by a space marine captain. Odd, because normally I feel like armor don't count for anything in black library publications. So maybe the artist is trying to make this a more even fight than it appears at first glance. Although the Imperium is still in the ascendant. Maybe that blow isn't meant to be fatal because its not meant to go through her armor by the artists logic?

Another thing...

Shadowsun is a master of Kauyon. If those two marine captains got to her then that's because that is exactly where she wants them to be...

It's art. It's not supposed to mimic or represent the table-top crunch.

The Imperium isn't winning that battle, if you look at the background. Those Marines are in a crossfire and getting shot the gak out of, and there's a pile of dead Space Marines under Shadowsun's feet there. The Marines are losing this battle, and losing it badly.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Don't know if this has been mentioned before in response to the OP.... but there are 2 Crisis Suits right there. The Tau may not be very good in CC, but it doesn't take Bruce Lee to punt a one-half-ton Space Marine out of the way with a multi-ton walking tank.

Actually I myself said the crisis suit could Bruce Lee (those exact words) Shrike out of the way. But hes not in a position to do that as the lightening claw is about to go through Sahdowsuns chest and kill her. Nowhere near that quick and his "look" indicates surprise rather than action. It could just be a spacing issue and really shrike should be further away than he is. The artist couldn't fit everything in or wanted it to be more close quarters than was necessary.

Hard to read emotion from a thing who's face is a black box with a single blue eye-light. Looks to me like it's looking at Mr. Lightning Claw like "What is this bit of fluff here?" and is just going to punt the dude for a 500-yard field goal, and is going to deliver a backhanded pimp-slap to the side of Whitey's dome there.

That and SS has a integral shield generator in her armour that would protect her from the claws.

My serious answer: the art represents the campaign results. The Tau bloodied the imperium's nose (all the dead marines) but it is only a matter of time before the imperium's warmachine turns it's full attention to the tau for retribution (the captains about to smash up Shadowsun).

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
http://majesticchicken.deviantart.com/art/The-Scythes-264327202

Here it is. This is a piece of artwork where the tau are shown in the ascendance and winning. Tau are still being killed, but the marines are obviously reeling and losing. It tells me that even the Emperors Space Marines could not save the Damocles Gulf Crusade; which is the purpose of the image. So just because a few marines are dead in the Shadowsun image means little. They've won. They've killed Shadowsun and driven them off Agrellan. Thats what the image tells me.

Why does the image tell you that, when the image shows Marines utterly surrounded and frantically shooting in all directions?

The image tells me that they've been horribly outmaneuvered by a far more mobile army.

I think Shadowsun's waiting for exactly the right moment to fire her jetpack and scoot out of the way at the last moment. That's not a scream of pain, it's a scream of defiance.

That, or she's mid-swing. Last of Kiru's Line did show that she's not shy about smacking things with her fusion blasters when things get dicey.

nareik wrote:
My serious answer: the art represents the campaign results. The Tau bloodied the imperium's nose (all the dead marines) but it is only a matter of time before the imperium's warmachine turns it's full attention to the tau for retribution (the captains about to smash up Shadowsun).

Well not really. If you read the Tau codex it is a total victory for the Tau. The Imperium does counter attack with the Ultramarines leading the forefront in the Zeist sector. But the losses they suffer here are only a necessary sacrifice and the tau just make greater gains elsewhere. Again, the battle was a clear set up to establish the tau as a huge challenge to the Imperium.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
http://majesticchicken.deviantart.com/art/The-Scythes-264327202

Here it is. This is a piece of artwork where the tau are shown in the ascendance and winning. Tau are still being killed, but the marines are obviously reeling and losing. It tells me that even the Emperors Space Marines could not save the Damocles Gulf Crusade; which is the purpose of the image. So just because a few marines are dead in the Shadowsun image means little. They've won. They've killed Shadowsun and driven them off Agrellan. Thats what the image tells me.

Why does the image tell you that, when the image shows Marines utterly surrounded and frantically shooting in all directions?

The image tells me that they've been horribly outmaneuvered by a far more mobile army.

There's also a White Scar marine next to that forward-most Raven Guard, who has been knocked down on his butt and blazing away with a bolter in one hand and trying to push himself up with the other.

Suffice to say, marines aren't doing too well.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
http://majesticchicken.deviantart.com/art/The-Scythes-264327202

Here it is. This is a piece of artwork where the tau are shown in the ascendance and winning. Tau are still being killed, but the marines are obviously reeling and losing. It tells me that even the Emperors Space Marines could not save the Damocles Gulf Crusade; which is the purpose of the image. So just because a few marines are dead in the Shadowsun image means little. They've won. They've killed Shadowsun and driven them off Agrellan. Thats what the image tells me.

Why does the image tell you that, when the image shows Marines utterly surrounded and frantically shooting in all directions?

The image tells me that they've been horribly outmaneuvered by a far more mobile army.

Because Shadowsun and her bodyguards are fighting back to back and clearly the ones surrounded. The only other tau in view are the drones. The large explosions probably represent submunitions but past that there is no indication of a larger tau force in the area. There are a lot more imperials in that image and if you compare it to the other image I linked the numbers are roughly even.

Tau have replicated the clone fields that Dark Eldar archons use.

The rules for Tau clone fields will be available in the limited edition release of this ebook!

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
http://majesticchicken.deviantart.com/art/The-Scythes-264327202

Here it is. This is a piece of artwork where the tau are shown in the ascendance and winning. Tau are still being killed, but the marines are obviously reeling and losing. It tells me that even the Emperors Space Marines could not save the Damocles Gulf Crusade; which is the purpose of the image. So just because a few marines are dead in the Shadowsun image means little. They've won. They've killed Shadowsun and driven them off Agrellan. Thats what the image tells me.

Why does the image tell you that, when the image shows Marines utterly surrounded and frantically shooting in all directions?

The image tells me that they've been horribly outmaneuvered by a far more mobile army.

Because Shadowsun and her bodyguards are fighting back to back and clearly the ones surrounded. The only other tau in view are the drones. The large explosions probably represent submunitions but past that there is no indication of a larger tau force in the area. There are a lot more imperials in that image and if you compare it to the other image I linked the numbers are roughly even.

Uh, except for that absolute torrent of cross-fire that is tearing the Marines in the open in the background of the picture a new a-hole.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

nareik wrote:
My serious answer: the art represents the campaign results. The Tau bloodied the imperium's nose (all the dead marines) but it is only a matter of time before the imperium's warmachine turns it's full attention to the tau for retribution (the captains about to smash up Shadowsun).

Well not really. If you read the Tau codex it is a total victory for the Tau. The Imperium does counter attack with the Ultramarines leading the forefront in the Zeist sector. But the losses they suffer here are only a necessary sacrifice and the tau just make greater gains elsewhere. Again, the battle was a clear set up to establish the tau as a huge challenge to the Imperium.

This is what I meant by the Tau Empire has bloodied the Imperium's nose.

This campaign victory proves the tau a more credible threat than what they were previously considered and as such are attracting future attention from the Imperiums full might, from which the tau would be lucky to survive.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
http://majesticchicken.deviantart.com/art/The-Scythes-264327202

Here it is. This is a piece of artwork where the tau are shown in the ascendance and winning. Tau are still being killed, but the marines are obviously reeling and losing. It tells me that even the Emperors Space Marines could not save the Damocles Gulf Crusade; which is the purpose of the image. So just because a few marines are dead in the Shadowsun image means little. They've won. They've killed Shadowsun and driven them off Agrellan. Thats what the image tells me.

Why does the image tell you that, when the image shows Marines utterly surrounded and frantically shooting in all directions?

The image tells me that they've been horribly outmaneuvered by a far more mobile army.

Because Shadowsun and her bodyguards are fighting back to back and clearly the ones surrounded. The only other tau in view are the drones. The large explosions probably represent submunitions but past that there is no indication of a larger tau force in the area. There are a lot more imperials in that image and if you compare it to the other image I linked the numbers are roughly even.

Uh, except for that absolute torrent of cross-fire that is tearing the Marines in the open in the background of the picture a new a-hole.

Perhaps. But the main focus as the artist says is Shadowsun. Which means the focus is these two space marines pawning Shadowsun; if not killing her. Which really detracts from a few grunts being killed. The focus is these two taking down the tau leader in close combat.

Shadowsun survives because the image is in-universe propaganda. Shadowsun has a jetpack and could just hover out of sword range and fusion gun the space marines, and that's probably what happened in the "real" fight. But the Imperium can never admit that kind of defeat, so their propaganda will portray the fight as a heroic duel where the space marines cut down the foul xenos leader, even if they can't deny the loss of the planet. And who will risk being executed for heresy to challenge the claim?

I like to remember that history is often written from a very biased view. This picture is clearly designed to make the Space Marine look like they are not getting their butts kicked. (As cannon would say they did)

Pictures and just that. Someone interpretation of events, and I'm sure that trend continued on into 41st millennium.

I wonder what the Tau version of the image would look like?

Smoking heaps of bike and dead marine laying astride the ground, Thunderhawks in the background in full retreat. The Tau happy to let them go, the battle had been won.

(Something marine would not do. Marine would chase them down and kill them. For a group that mentions honor so often, they don't always show it.)

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Boniface wrote:
I think the crisis suit does a sudden jetpack blast, grabs her and flies to safety.

Shrikes blades are almost touching her armor...

The blast is so sudden I happens before shrike stabs her?

I'm not sure if any of you played against a crisis commander wielding fusion blades, with shield generator, and stims(SS has no stims but whatever) but he is a absolute monster that can stand up to even the biggest CC monsters provided they cannot easily ID him. In shadowsuns book she uses her fusion blasters the same way as the fusion blades. If that's what she's doing here, Khan and Shrike are as good as dead, 'nuff said.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
http://majesticchicken.deviantart.com/art/The-Scythes-264327202

Here it is. This is a piece of artwork where the tau are shown in the ascendance and winning. Tau are still being killed, but the marines are obviously reeling and losing. It tells me that even the Emperors Space Marines could not save the Damocles Gulf Crusade; which is the purpose of the image. So just because a few marines are dead in the Shadowsun image means little. They've won. They've killed Shadowsun and driven them off Agrellan. Thats what the image tells me.

That pic is out of the 3rd edition Tau codex.

Every codex depicts its "home" side as winning.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
http://majesticchicken.deviantart.com/art/The-Scythes-264327202

Here it is. This is a piece of artwork where the tau are shown in the ascendance and winning. Tau are still being killed, but the marines are obviously reeling and losing. It tells me that even the Emperors Space Marines could not save the Damocles Gulf Crusade; which is the purpose of the image. So just because a few marines are dead in the Shadowsun image means little. They've won. They've killed Shadowsun and driven them off Agrellan. Thats what the image tells me.

That pic is out of the 3rd edition Tau codex.

Every codex depicts its "home" side as winning.

Well, other than the eldar one!

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
http://majesticchicken.deviantart.com/art/The-Scythes-264327202

Here it is. This is a piece of artwork where the tau are shown in the ascendance and winning. Tau are still being killed, but the marines are obviously reeling and losing. It tells me that even the Emperors Space Marines could not save the Damocles Gulf Crusade; which is the purpose of the image. So just because a few marines are dead in the Shadowsun image means little. They've won. They've killed Shadowsun and driven them off Agrellan. Thats what the image tells me.

That pic is out of the 3rd edition Tau codex.

Every codex depicts its "home" side as winning.

This is the front cover of a book which is meant to be about how the Tau conquer the Agrellan system.

It should show the home side as winning just as much as a codex image should.

If you zoom in at her armor the shrike already missed. There are 4 very shallow marks across her chest and the tau symbol that line up perfectly. Not saying that's it but it could be.

 Rotary wrote:
If you zoom in at her armor the shrike already missed. There are 4 very shallow marks across her chest and the tau symbol that line up perfectly. Not saying that's it but it could be.

Hes lunging down as hes falling from the sky having used his jet pack. That was probably a previous glancing strike. Theres a similar mark on her leg and probably the cause of the blood on her face; which may or may not have taken her helmet off.

Actully that makes sense. And shrikes position might be him pulling the claws back for another blow, meaning enough time for her to dodge/jetpack away.

If that was actually a scene played out in fluff shadowsun would be mincemeat, so obviously its just a cool picture, so all you Tau fanboys can calm down.

 Peregrine wrote:
Shadowsun has a jetpack

Mind you, Shrike does not give a feth about jetpacks.

 EmilCrane wrote:
If that was actually a scene played out in fluff shadowsun would be mincemeat, so obviously its just a cool picture, so all you Tau fanboys can calm down.

Nah, she would be protected by the power of named. That and GWs inability to advance the plot.

Jump packs are quite academic at that point, I don't think people realize how fast a space marine captain actually is in melee. People see the marines as big slow armored hulks but that's not the case at all. Initiative 5 is faster than any human can ever be, except Marbo because he's marbo. Shadowsun is Initiative 4, probably by virtue of her suit but that wouldn't save her, just means that she might actually see it coming.

And Death Cult Assassins and Assassinorum people, but hey, they are barely human at all.

... and? The Marines are busy dying in the background, and these two dudes are about to get kicked and/or slapped by a walking tank.

Dude in the back there might get a face full of jet-pack thrust into his unarmored face. Might not kill him, him being a Space Marine and all... but will burn the flesh from his face and literally fry his eyeballs like eggs.

Dude in the front hit a "glancing blow" at best against her, and now it looks like it might be her turn, so he takes some fusion blasters to the grill, which might just vaporize his head.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
And Death Cult Assassins and Assassinorum people, but hey, they are barely human at all.

Whatever assassins are they're not human, not fully anyway. I was merely stating that I5 is something that we as normal unaugmented humans cannot comprehend.

Which I agree with.

Everyone is assuming that the lightning claws are on their way down. They could easily be pulling back to strike the blow.

Fragile wrote:
Everyone is assuming that the lightning claws are on their way down. They could easily be pulling back to strike the blow.

Except for the fact that Shrike's feet aren't on the floor, and are set for a landing, not after a jump - and his jump pack would be firing if he was ascending, which it isn't.

Fortunately for Shadowsun, Hammer of Wrath attacks don't let you use your weapons' AP.

Well, its clearly designed to be a more epic picture showing the fight. I'll bet in the book those three characters never even get close to each other.

If you go by the fluff there are only two real outcomes. If we believe that Chapter Masters are all that and a bag of chips there is now way that Shadowsun would be anything more than a smear of blood against the rocks after this confrontation. However, the fact that it took two Chapter Masters to bring her down is a tribute to her prowess and skill.

Option two is that she wins and escapes, which quite frankly (if we are still to believe that Chapter Masters are godly in skill and power) Shadowsun is more skillful than most named characters in the universe. Having not only survived and bested two Chapter Masters, but then lead her troops onto the route of both enemy armies.

Shadowsun is cool, but not that cool. I think the picture is just designed to look cool and doesn't actually represent anything in the book.

I'm going to echo what others have said in that I don't think she is about to be slain, rather it is an interesting picture to highlight the intensity of the battle.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Well, its clearly designed to be a more epic picture showing the fight. I'll bet in the book those three characters never even get close to each other.

k.

This fight does happen in the collection of novellas.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/damocles_.html

So both chapter masters go to kill shadowsun.

...SPOILER ALERT...

I heard in the actual story it's not really Shadowsun, but an AI controlled "puppet" meant to draw the marines in close in order to test a new weapon,

Awesome portrait of the current 40K meta, you need 2 Space Marine Chapter Master to have a chance to fighting Tau, Notice the picture only have dead SM's and no dead Tau?

 EmilCrane wrote:
Initiative 5 is faster than any human can ever be, except Marbo because he's marbo.

Saint Celestine is I7. DCA have already been mentioned, I have never read in the fluff that they were genetically or otherwise augmented.

Celestine is a Living Saint.

She is nowhere near a human.

DCA be crazy, mon. They are Marbo on speed-drugs.

Plus, game mechanics do not always equal fluff...

It's quite simple.

The Space Marine player is disqualified for cheating because both of his characters - Shrike and Khan - are fighting in the same Challenge in the same melee, against the Tau player's Shadowsun.

Lore-wise, no matter who dies there, that's gonna alter history. Because as far as I know, all three of those people are alive presently.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Plus, game mechanics do not always equal fluff...

Please, can you tell me why you are now making this incredibly spot-on remark, yet it did not occur to you when EmilCrane said “Initiative 5 is faster than any human can ever be, except Marbo because he's marbo. Shadowsun is Initiative 4, probably by virtue of her suit but that wouldn't save her, just means that she might actually see it coming. ” ?
Just because being answered with this kind of observation when answering to someone that already mixed crunch and fluff is getting tiresome. If you notice me saying something, anything really, that mix fluff and crunch, please check if I was answering to someone who was doing that too. If that is the case, then either make the remark to him/her, or do not make the remark at all.
Thank you.

I said that to refer to the general discussion, not specifically DCA.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
...SPOILER ALERT...

I heard in the actual story it's not really Shadowsun, but an AI controlled "puppet" meant to draw the marines in close in order to test a new weapon,

Ugh, really?

I hate when they use dopplegangers. They do that in Path of the Archon and it was so bad. Plus its a little out there for Tau to have life like androids and an exact copy of Shadowsuns one of a kind weapon systems. A hologram could easily suffice for the purposes of luring them.

It would also detract even further from the character by not having her actually get to fight but this distant force pulling strings against our space marine protagonists. Almost certainly means you won't get a Shadowsun POV during that fight.

Really don't like how a bit of Tau canon where they win is being turned into bolter porn for the White Scars and Raven Guard; with those chapters involvement being the central focus. Its especially glaring because before it was actually the Ultramarines and their successor chapters who are mentioned most strongly in relation to the Third Sphere expansion. Rolling out the Raven Guard and White Scars is purely because the new Marine codex focused on them. If they want to do stuff focused on them; fine, invent a new seperate battle where they win. But why they have to change canon to make two named chapters and a particular blend of chapter tactics the focus of the campaign is really gaulling. Again, this is just to make them and the Imperial Knights look good when Agrellan issupposed to be a DISASTER for the Imperium. Its like trying to make Istvaan from the Horus Heresy look like some great heroic triumph. Its really telling that GW will actually reduce the amount of little xenos lore to boost the reputation of marines who I am sure already have many, many stories dedicated to them. But no, every piece of artwork has to have the space marines pawning legions of tau.

Well if they kept her helmet on, making it a robot would be reasonable(ish).

The thing is that tau would not waste the resources on something like that, they would probably just use the weapon.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I said that to refer to the general discussion, not specifically DCA.

Okay, but you are not the only one, I have been seeing that just too often.
Generally speaking, I think when WS/BS/I becomes more than 6, it becomes a bit confusing. What exactly is the difference between WS7 and WS8 ? They seem pretty similar from down there.
Also, I think the profile for DCA is just non-sense. They just have a better profile than eldar aspect warrior ! And what about that S4, it does not make sense ! Poisoned would be more fluffy, even though I am not sure poison would work well with power weapons.

I find it best to think that a single melee attack is actuly multiple, thus accounting for the strength (after all, a human slapping with their rifle is not as powerful as them shooting you with it).

Shrike and Korsarro Kahn are Captains, not Chapter Masters.

So this picture has generated five pages of discussion in a relatively short time, I think it was the artist's intention to get our lore/action gears turning by making it so narrative and close.

My two cents, Tau tech is superior to Man's and it's all the advanced junk in her suit, the crisis suit and that little drone swooping in that pull her out of the fire before the marine can kill her, like the drone gets in the way of the claw last second, pretty intense.

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

My two cents, Tau tech is superior to Man's

Except for the part where it isn't.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

My two cents, Tau tech is superior to Man's

Except for the part where it isn't.

Except for the part where there are many examples of either race being extremely advanced but Tau's approach to technology alone makes them more advanced.

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

My two cents, Tau tech is superior to Man's

Except for the part where it isn't.

Except for the part where there are many examples of either race being extremely advanced but Tau's approach to technology alone makes them more advanced.

The cutting-edge tech of the Imperium is far more advanced, it's just that the Tau, by virtue of not spanning the Galaxy, can distribute their tech to their soldiers more easily.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

My two cents, Tau tech is superior to Man's

Except for the part where it isn't.

Except for the part where there are many examples of either race being extremely advanced but Tau's approach to technology alone makes them more advanced.

The cutting-edge tech of the Imperium is far more advanced, it's just that the Tau, by virtue of not spanning the Galaxy, can distribute their tech to their soldiers more easily.

In other words, the Tau tech present in that particular picture is more advanced than the Imperial tech cause the best Imperial tech is elsewhere? Those are captains I know, but Shadowsun 'outranks' them by far, she's got the best the Tau have to offer.

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

My two cents, Tau tech is superior to Man's

Except for the part where it isn't.

Except for the part where there are many examples of either race being extremely advanced but Tau's approach to technology alone makes them more advanced.

The cutting-edge tech of the Imperium is far more advanced, it's just that the Tau, by virtue of not spanning the Galaxy, can distribute their tech to their soldiers more easily.

In other words, the Tau tech present in that particular picture is more advanced than the Imperial tech cause the best Imperial tech is elsewhere? Those are captains I know, but Shadowsun 'outranks' them by far, she's got the best the Tau have to offer.

The Black Carapace and Astartes Power Armour is easily superior to their Tau equivalents as well. Further, Iron Halos are pretty damn good for their size, fluff-wise. Neither of the two Captains are wearing armour, they're part of the armour. Not to mention all the tech that goes into the creation of Space Marines.

The Tau aren't a threat because their elite units are more powerful than those of the Imperium, they're a threat because their basic grunts are much more dangerous than those of (most) Imperial Guard regiments.

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

My two cents, Tau tech is superior to Man's

Except for the part where it isn't.

Except for the part where there are many examples of either race being extremely advanced but Tau's approach to technology alone makes them more advanced.

The cutting-edge tech of the Imperium is far more advanced, it's just that the Tau, by virtue of not spanning the Galaxy, can distribute their tech to their soldiers more easily.

In other words, the Tau tech present in that particular picture is more advanced than the Imperial tech cause the best Imperial tech is elsewhere? Those are captains I know, but Shadowsun 'outranks' them by far, she's got the best the Tau have to offer.

It's mostly the top vs the average. Tau average tech is much better than human average tech, however human top tech is better than tau top tech. The thing is that human top tech is irreplaceable and tau top tech is able to be reproduced.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

My two cents, Tau tech is superior to Man's

Except for the part where it isn't.

Except for the part where there are many examples of either race being extremely advanced but Tau's approach to technology alone makes them more advanced.

The cutting-edge tech of the Imperium is far more advanced, it's just that the Tau, by virtue of not spanning the Galaxy, can distribute their tech to their soldiers more easily.

In other words, the Tau tech present in that particular picture is more advanced than the Imperial tech cause the best Imperial tech is elsewhere? Those are captains I know, but Shadowsun 'outranks' them by far, she's got the best the Tau have to offer.

It's mostly the top vs the average. Tau average tech is much better than human average tech, however human top tech is better than tau top tech. The thing is that human top tech is irreplaceable and tau top tech is able to be reproduced.

Titans aren't irreplacable, Terminator Armour isn't irreplacable, Dreadknights aren't irreplacable, Power Armour isn't irreplacable, Nova Cannons aren't irreplacable, Warp Drives aren't irreplacable etc etc etc.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

My two cents, Tau tech is superior to Man's

Except for the part where it isn't.

Except for the part where there are many examples of either race being extremely advanced but Tau's approach to technology alone makes them more advanced.

The cutting-edge tech of the Imperium is far more advanced, it's just that the Tau, by virtue of not spanning the Galaxy, can distribute their tech to their soldiers more easily.

In other words, the Tau tech present in that particular picture is more advanced than the Imperial tech cause the best Imperial tech is elsewhere? Those are captains I know, but Shadowsun 'outranks' them by far, she's got the best the Tau have to offer.

It's mostly the top vs the average. Tau average tech is much better than human average tech, however human top tech is better than tau top tech. The thing is that human top tech is irreplaceable and tau top tech is able to be reproduced.

Titans aren't irreplacable, Terminator Armour isn't irreplacable, Dreadknights aren't irreplacable, Power Armour isn't irreplacable, Nova Cannons aren't irreplacable, Warp Drives aren't irreplacable etc etc etc.

Terminator armour, Dreadknights, power armour, ect are not top tech (and tau have things that match). The TOP tech (think golden throne) are irreplaceable, mostly because of he ad-mechs incompetence. Tau also have the advantage of being able to produce things cheaply. Take titians, they are really expensive and require a one-in-a-million individual to pilot. Tigershark AX-1-0s however are cheaply retrofitted from existing models and can be flown by any member of the air caste.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

My two cents, Tau tech is superior to Man's

Except for the part where it isn't.

Except for the part where there are many examples of either race being extremely advanced but Tau's approach to technology alone makes them more advanced.

The cutting-edge tech of the Imperium is far more advanced, it's just that the Tau, by virtue of not spanning the Galaxy, can distribute their tech to their soldiers more easily.

In other words, the Tau tech present in that particular picture is more advanced than the Imperial tech cause the best Imperial tech is elsewhere? Those are captains I know, but Shadowsun 'outranks' them by far, she's got the best the Tau have to offer.

The Black Carapace and Astartes Power Armour is easily superior to their Tau equivalents as well. Further, Iron Halos are pretty damn good for their size, fluff-wise. Neither of the two Captains are wearing armour, they're part of the armour. Not to mention all the tech that goes into the creation of Space Marines.

The Tau aren't a threat because their elite units are more powerful than those of the Imperium, they're a threat because their basic grunts are much more dangerous than those of (most) Imperial Guard regiments.

You're right, the tech used by Space Marine captains is more advanced than Shadowsun's.

How is black carapace and power armor superior to crisis suits?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How is black carapace and power armor superior to crisis suits?

They're not.

I know, but I'm just curious about the reasoning.

Ah, right.

The Black Carapace is superior to the Tau Mind Impulse Unit thingamajig because it makes Power Armour a second skin. Crisis Suits are still piloted, Power Armour is a part of you. Further, Crisis Suits aren't equivalent to Power Armour. Power Armour is personal armour, Crisis Suits are piloted weapons platforms.

Sarcasm

Not to mention I'm talking about Shadowsun not crisis suits.

Furthermore, I feel like hooking stuff up to your mind is way more intense than hooking it up to your body. I know Imperials do it too but in the case of the crisis suit and black carapace, mind over matter all the way.

 scuzz_bucket wrote:
Sarcasm

Not to mention I'm talking about Shadowsun not crisis suits.

You started off by claiming that Tau tech is more advanced than Man's overall, which isn't true. There's probably parts of Shadowsun's armour that's more advanced than the Imperial counterpart, but even then there's also parts of the Marines' wargear that's more advanced than the Tau counterpart.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:
Sarcasm

Not to mention I'm talking about Shadowsun not crisis suits.

You started off by claiming that Tau tech is more advanced than Man's overall, which isn't true. There's probably parts of Shadowsun's armour that's more advanced than the Imperial counterpart, but even then there's also parts of the Marines' wargear that's more advanced than the Tau counterpart.

Actually, tau stuff is controlled by the "pilots" mind. It becomes part of you when you pilot it. You even feel ghost pain when the suit is damaged.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Black Carapace is superior to the Tau Mind Impulse Unit thingamajig because it makes Power Armour a second skin. Crisis Suits are still piloted, Power Armour is a part of you. Further, Crisis Suits aren't equivalent to Power Armour. Power Armour is personal armour, Crisis Suits are piloted weapons platforms.

But the end result (the function) is the same. Power armor is "a second skin", but what practical benefit does that give that the Crisis Suit does not? Tau aren't melee combatants, so they're not concerned with needing to do backflips. By comparison, crisis suits give near-infinite flight and far greater physical enhancements (crisis suits amp a S3, T3 W1 creature to S5, T4 W2, compared to S4, T4, W1 Marines becoming... S4, T4, W1, this is represented in the fluff as well).

Combine that with Crisis Suits far superior hard-points, and the difference between the two is pretty stark. Power armor is literally just a really tough suit of armor that doesn't restrict mobility. A Crisis Suit offers... a hell of a lot more.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Black Carapace is superior to the Tau Mind Impulse Unit thingamajig because it makes Power Armour a second skin. Crisis Suits are still piloted, Power Armour is a part of you. Further, Crisis Suits aren't equivalent to Power Armour. Power Armour is personal armour, Crisis Suits are piloted weapons platforms.

But the end result (the function) is the same. Power armor is "a second skin", but what practical benefit does that give that the Crisis Suit does not? Tau aren't melee combatants, so they're not concerned with needing to do backflips. By comparison, crisis suits give near-infinite flight and far greater physical enhancements (crisis suits amp a S3, T3 W1 creature to S5, T4 W2, compared to S4, T4, W1 Marines becoming... S4, T4, W1, this is represented in the fluff as well).

Combine that with Crisis Suits far superior hard-points, and the difference between the two is pretty stark. Power armor is literally just a really tough suit of armor that doesn't restrict mobility. A Crisis Suit offers... a hell of a lot more.

Which is where Terminator Armour and Centurion Armour comes in. Power Armoured Marines can fight inside buildings and spaceships, Crisis Suits can't.

TDA will fall through the floors of most buildings unless you're inside some kind of AdMech or Hive-support structure. It's a massive suit of armor intended to be worn inside a plasma reactor. It weighs tons.

... and you can forget about walking up a wooden staircase. That's just right out.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Which is where Terminator Armour and Centurion Armour comes in.

So you're moving the goal-post here, since your assertion was that black carapace made power armor more advanced than a crisis suit...

Anyway, aside from having superior durability (to which I could point to Broadsides, which have a 2+ save as well), what does TDA and Centurion armor have over Crisis Suits? They still can't fly, still don't offer nearly as much firepower or hard-points for accessories, and in the case of TDA, still doesn't enhance the wearer like a Crisis Suit does.

Power Armoured Marines can fight inside buildings and spaceships, Crisis Suits can't.

According to what?

Crisis suits cant fight inside a spaceship?
You do realise thats how they get them to a war zone right? inside one.
So if they can walk around in a small one, fighting in a bigger one really isnt an issue.

Also, space hulk, dreadnoughts, it is possible

Space ships dont have any form of restrictions except size, and a suit isnt that huge.

And as far as weight, the Tau codex outright states that Crisis Suits are vastly lighter than power armor, despite offering comparable protection.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Power Armoured Marines can fight inside buildings and spaceships, Crisis Suits can't.

According to what?

Size. Power Armoured Marines probably fit into corridors made for standard living beings, Crisis Suits don't.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Anyway, aside from having superior durability (to which I could point to Broadsides, which have a 2+ save as well), what does TDA and Centurion armor have over Crisis Suits? They still can't fly, still don't offer nearly as much firepower or hard-points for accessories, and in the case of TDA, still doesn't enhance the wearer like a Crisis Suit does.

Teleportation, for one. Better armour. Easily comparable firepower fluff-wise (and if you think Crisis Suits have better firepower than Gravturions in-game you're free to think that, but I'd not agree).

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Which is where Terminator Armour and Centurion Armour comes in.

So you're moving the goal-post here, since your assertion was that black carapace made power armor more advanced than a crisis suit...

An Ork Bomma is more mobile and packs more firepower than a Marine in Power Armour. That doesn't make it more advanced, just like a Crisis Suit isn't more advanced than Power Armour.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
An Ork Bomma is more mobile and packs more firepower than a Marine in Power Armour. That doesn't make it more advanced, just like a Crisis Suit isn't more advanced than Power Armour.

A crisis suit is much more advanced. They can survive under water for greatly extended periods of time, have advanced tracking systems, scanners, targeters, a jet pack, more advanced weaponry, ect. It is more advanced. The materials that are used to build them are more advanced than the ceramitite used in power armour as well.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
An Ork Bomma is more mobile and packs more firepower than a Marine in Power Armour. That doesn't make it more advanced, just like a Crisis Suit isn't more advanced than Power Armour.

A crisis suit is much more advanced. They can survive under water for greatly extended periods of time, have advanced tracking systems, scanners, targeters, a jet pack, more advanced weaponry, ect. It is more advanced. The materials that are used to build them are more advanced than the ceramitite used in power armour as well.

Power Armour can also survive under water for greatly extended periods of time, has advanced tracking systems, scanners, and targeters. Further, a fusion gun isn't more advanced than a meltagun, a plasma is a plasma etc. The difference is the jetpack, which comes attachable to Power Armour (see jump packs).

Citation on the "more advanced materials" part?

It may already gave been noted, but Shadowsun survives because she is flipping her fusion blaster up to lop off Shrike's arm before the blades hit.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[

An Ork Bomma is more mobile and packs more firepower than a Marine in Power Armour. That doesn't make it more advanced, just like a Crisis Suit isn't more advanced than Power Armour.

Um... you can't compare an aircraft to a suit of armour. They're totally different things and require totally different technology.

Power Armour and Crisis Suits are both kinds of power armour. They require a similar form of technology, and are therefore comparable. The Crisis Suit has the advantages of mobility, enhancement and armament, while the Power Armour has the advantage of size.

Shadowsun's suit is clearly more advanced than standard power armour, because it has all the advantages of both the crisis suit and the power armour.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Shadowsun's suit is clearly more advanced than standard power armour, because it has all the advantages of both the crisis suit and the power armour.

And Artificer Armour is more advanced than Power Armour.

Only through the blessings of the Omnissiah. The Imperium does not have the technology to produce artificer armour. They can't run suits of it off a production line. The artificer part comes from it having been upgraded and modified over centuries by forgemasters. None of those improvements make it back to the Mars Archive, so it cannot be stated that they make the Imperium's mastery of technology greater.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
An Ork Bomma is more mobile and packs more firepower than a Marine in Power Armour. That doesn't make it more advanced, just like a Crisis Suit isn't more advanced than Power Armour.

A crisis suit is much more advanced. They can survive under water for greatly extended periods of time, have advanced tracking systems, scanners, targeters, a jet pack, more advanced weaponry, ect. It is more advanced. The materials that are used to build them are more advanced than the ceramitite used in power armour as well.

Power Armour can also survive under water for greatly extended periods of time, has advanced tracking systems, scanners, and targeters. Further, a fusion gun isn't more advanced than a meltagun, a plasma is a plasma etc. The difference is the jetpack, which comes attachable to Power Armour (see jump packs).

Citation on the "more advanced materials" part?

A fusion gun is more advanced than a melta gun in the same way a multi-melta is more advanced than a meltagun, longer range. the thing is plasma guns are rare, even among space marines (albeit relativity so in their case). The space marine basic gin is the bolter which is far less advanced than any of the crisis basic weapons other than the flamer. Basic tau trackers are more advanced than basic power armour trakers (multitrackrers) and space marines don't have anything like blacksun filters basic AFAIK. Tau upgrades stress this even more with things like advanced targeting systems, counterfire defense systems, early waring ovvereides, target locks, ect. If anything tau jetpacks are more advanced than jump packs as they allow for constant flight instead of jumps like the jump pack and is much more stable. They also use more than just jet propulsion, but small anti-grav generators as well.
When I talk about extended periods of time I'm talking about farisght staying under water for a long time. This is from the enclaves book.

....... In his search for wisdom, he skimmed low across the saline ocean of Vior’los and then plunged into the water, diving down to the darkness of the ocean bed. There, he settled into a trance, sitting cross-legged in the hero’s mantle for seven long cycles. Nightsharks and bulbous glowfish circled in the bubbles that bled up from oceanic fissures around him as he sought inspiration from the cold truths of water.

Also for the more advanced materials, the first place I found it was the current tau codex (alhtough this info was in older books)

... ,the XV8's armour is comparable to ceramite used by the Imperium's Space Marines, but weighs substantially less.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Shadowsun's suit is clearly more advanced than standard power armour, because it has all the advantages of both the crisis suit and the power armour.

And Artificer Armour is more advanced than Power Armour.

And shadowsun's suit is too.

A static baneblade with no invuln is a heck of a lot more vulnerable than a Knight that can move 12", charge, has fleet, and can deflect shots on a 4++ or better. Not to mention the close combat effectiveness.

Now bring in the riptide, that thing tears up the static tank, and threatens the knight. Knights are MUCH rarer and more versatile then the static baneblade.

They each have their uses, but just saying there is a plothole because the knights pulled out of the fight is a bit off IMO.

 sfshilo wrote:
A static baneblade with no invuln is a heck of a lot more vulnerable than a Knight that can move 12", charge, has fleet, and can deflect shots on a 4++ or better. Not to mention the close combat effectiveness.

Now bring in the riptide, that thing tears up the static tank, and threatens the knight. Knights are MUCH rarer and more versatile then the static baneblade.

They each have their uses, but just saying there is a plothole because the knights pulled out of the fight is a bit off IMO.

You posted this into the wrong topic. Obviously.

 Flinty wrote:
It may already gave been noted, but Shadowsun survives because she is flipping her fusion blaster up to lop off Shrike's arm before the blades hit.

No shes missed, Shrike has dodged her shot which leaves him open to stab her.

I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing a fusion beam about to pass right through dude's arm just above the elbow when she curls her left arm up.

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing a fusion beam about to pass right through dude's arm just above the elbow when she curls her left arm up.

His arm is raised above the beam and is going under his shoulder. Shadowsun has missed by a wide margin. Definitely not going into his arm.

Her gun is definitely between shrike's arm and body, that's for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just noticed something. The markings on the suit closest to shadowsun indicate that he is not a shas'vre as everyone assumes, but a shas'o, a commander. He could pull a glorious intervention , but seriously he mught be able to save shadowsun if she is in trouble. And he could have the onager gauntlet, S10 AP1 at I, baby! The other one may be as well, it's hard to tell with the shadow.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing a fusion beam about to pass right through dude's arm just above the elbow when she curls her left arm up.

His arm is raised above the beam and is going under his shoulder. Shadowsun has missed by a wide margin. Definitely not going into his arm.

Yes, and if she curls her arm up, as in bringing her left hand up to her shoulder, it brings the muzzles of those blasters (and their fusion beams) directly in line with his elbow and upper-arm. Or, hell, she doesn't even have to cut his arm off, just stick the blaster in his arm-pit, with the size of those guns, he won't be able to get enough "wrap" with his arm to actually hit her, his arm'll be stuck out to the side, just flailing in the breeze.

Shrike has momentum and is a space marine so its very implied that he will gore shadowsun before she could spin and do that. Hes many times faster than her. Even at human speeds she wouldn't have the reflexes to do that. Shrike would be on top of her even if the first blow didn't kill her. Hes inside her guard and this makes her bulky weapons useless.

I won't argue about whether or not a fusion blaster is a "flamethrower" type weapon or a "bolt"of plasma. It could be either but its not really important. What matters is that he is inside her guard and she is firing because shes missed him; which shows that Shrike is a lot faster than her. Which makes sense considering the characters specialty of combat.

All I can say after reading the first page is: Shadowsun is no Bro.. she shall live.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Shrike has momentum and is a space marine so its very implied that he will gore shadowsun before she could spin and do that. Hes many times faster than her. Even at human speeds she wouldn't have the reflexes to do that. Shrike would be on top of her even if the first blow didn't kill her. Hes inside her guard and this makes her bulky weapons useless.

I won't argue about whether or not a fusion blaster is a "flamethrower" type weapon or a "bolt"of plasma. It could be either but its not really important. What matters is that he is inside her guard and she is firing because shes missed him; which shows that Shrike is a lot faster than her. Which makes sense considering the characters specialty of combat.

Based on the image the artist appears to think its a beam weapon allowing Shadowsun to move her forearm and cut off shrike's arm. XV22 is also powered increasing strength and agility, so who wins the race depends on individual interpretation. Another option is that a broadside out of shot has just aquired Shrike and he is about to see how easy it is to function while missing a torso

lol.

Shadowsun survives because Khan and Shrike get over enthusiastic, fly over the shortie's head and headbutt each other.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Shrike has momentum and is a space marine so its very implied that he will gore shadowsun before she could spin and do that. Hes many times faster than her. Even at human speeds she wouldn't have the reflexes to do that. Shrike would be on top of her even if the first blow didn't kill her. Hes inside her guard and this makes her bulky weapons useless.

I won't argue about whether or not a fusion blaster is a "flamethrower" type weapon or a "bolt"of plasma. It could be either but its not really important. What matters is that he is inside her guard and she is firing because shes missed him; which shows that Shrike is a lot faster than her. Which makes sense considering the characters specialty of combat.

He's not "inside her guard", he's trying to get to inside her guard, since she's foregrounded more than he is, rather than being on the same line, the muzzle of her weapon appears to be past him, but is not. This is obvious by the placement of his feet compared to hers. If she moves her left arm laterally outward, so towards the background of the image, that puts the muzzle of her fusion blaster against his belly. Then, speed of thought because that is how these things work, his lower torso vaporizes when she fires. Whitey there just took out her drone with a two-handed swing, which is going to require a moment to recover from (because that's how physics do). So Mr. Lightning Claw takes a fusion blaster point-blank to the gut, and that basically separates him at his skinny, probably-washboard-abbed middle... that's a tactically-unviable Space Marine. The Crisis Suit that is behind Shadowsun and facing her direction sees Whitey taking out the shield drone, and just puts its giant boot in his ass and sends him flying. Don't even need to try that hard. It's a big ass getting kicked by an even bigger boot.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Shrike has momentum and is a space marine so its very implied that he will gore shadowsun before she could spin and do that. Hes many times faster than her. Even at human speeds she wouldn't have the reflexes to do that. Shrike would be on top of her even if the first blow didn't kill her. Hes inside her guard and this makes her bulky weapons useless.

I won't argue about whether or not a fusion blaster is a "flamethrower" type weapon or a "bolt"of plasma. It could be either but its not really important. What matters is that he is inside her guard and she is firing because shes missed him; which shows that Shrike is a lot faster than her. Which makes sense considering the characters specialty of combat.

He's not "inside her guard", he's trying to get to inside her guard, since she's foregrounded more than he is, rather than being on the same line, the muzzle of her weapon appears to be past him, but is not. This is obvious by the placement of his feet compared to hers. If she moves her left arm laterally outward, so towards the background of the image, that puts the muzzle of her fusion blaster against his belly. Then, speed of thought because that is how these things work, his lower torso vaporizes when she fires. Whitey there just took out her drone with a two-handed swing, which is going to require a moment to recover from (because that's how physics do). So Mr. Lightning Claw takes a fusion blaster point-blank to the gut, and that basically separates him at his skinny, probably-washboard-abbed middle... that's a tactically-unviable Space Marine. The Crisis Suit that is behind Shadowsun and facing her direction sees Whitey taking out the shield drone, and just puts its giant boot in his ass and sends him flying. Don't even need to try that hard. It's a big ass getting kicked by an even bigger boot.

Alternatively, she fires, the Iron Halo blocks the shot and she turns into red mist. Tau aren't the only ones with high-tech stuff.

He's not wearing an Iron Halo.



Mr. Lightning Claws does not appear to be equipped with the above item of wargear on his PA.

Shrike's model doesn't have one either, but he's got oneby virtue of being a Marine Captain (and, in-game, because the rules say so).

Apparently, they left them at home. WYSIWYG.

Fine then, he's wearing it on his left shoulder pad and we can't see it, because his arm's blocking the view.

The Iron Halo is a relatively large piece of wargear that mounts behind the head of the wearer, hence the name. They're a fairly iconic bit of gear in the franchise, and you don't go sticking it wherever you like, as the War-Spirit of your PA doesn't generally get on with such shenanigans.

Lexicanum wrote:The Iron Halo appears as a spiked circle or half-circle of grey iron worn either on the helmet or the left shoulder pad. Sometimes it is more elaborate and takes the form of an actual halo arching over the Battle-Brother’s helmet, connected either to his gorget or backpack. In rare cases, the Iron Halo will also be inlaid with litanies of the Battle-Brother's deeds or the names of heroes of his Chapter.[3]

I didn't mention the left shoulder pad as just some random body part.

I have never seen an Iron Halo mounted anywhere on a pauldron on anything.

Lexi seems to be confusing the Halo for a Crux Terminatus.

I know I've seen Iron Halo shoulderpads somewhere, but I can't find it ATM, so that's anecdotal I suppose.

I am wondering if Lexicanum is confusing the force-field generating bit of wargear with the honor badge that goes by the same name, and is worn on the shoulder?

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ia/insignium/23_honourbadges.html

Now I remember where I saw it!



Admittedly on his knee, but still.

Hmm... are you sure that's an Iron Halo? It just looks like a pretty typical "bling bit" that some SM get.

Looks like an Iron Halo surrounding a skull to me.

To answer the OPs question:

Shrike throws just ones on his to hit roll and GW decided to add a new random table to punish such a big failure. After rolling on that new table Shrike misses Shadowsun and hits Khan instead. With his last breath Khan put his sword through the throat of this Raven Guard traitor.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Looks like an Iron Halo surrounding a skull to me.

Yes, but that's an Honor Badge, not the force-field creating device.

It's big enough on the Helbrecht model to house a shield generator, and it's obviously not just painted onto his armour.

The entire point's moot anyway, we can't see Shadowsun's jump jets, so she can't jump away, right?

She dies. The Tau are then retconned out of existence and Squats are brought back. All is right in the world.

 Saevus wrote:
She dies. The Tau are then retconned out of existence and Squats are brought back. All is right in the world.