Take into consideration all of each race's technology, not just weapons and transportation technology, but power creation, civilian tech, and social/political systems.
Keep in mind there is only one right answer.

I find it comical that everyone voted orks. Also no dark eldar? They can reanimate someone by simply having their ashes...

I count Dark Eldar as part of the Eldar race, and only one person voted when you posted that...


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Does anyone mind offering explanations for their choices?

I voted Tyranids, they are the only species in the game to span multiple galaxies, they have the necessary technology and technical skill to travel from one galaxy to another, they have the technology to reproduce at will and only do so when needed, they have overcome individual instinct and live in an interconnected society that has formed a single brain, hive mentality (kind of like a super internet), they are at least a type one civilization utilizing all of the power, geothermal, wind, water, and biological, that a planet has to offer, and they are most likely a type two and three civilization as well, I can almost guarantee they utilize the whole power and energy given off by single suns, and most likely utilize all the power created by at least one of the galaxies they control.

Well I was debating between Tau and Eldar but I put Tau because I think they have the most potential for future progress and have some pretty advanced technologies.
Eldar HAD a fairly advanced society etc until it all fell apart so that is why they didn't make the cut for me.

Necrons have a lot of tech, granted there basically robots but it does lend itself well to survival and ability to basicly outlast any race by seleeping.

Yes they have no civilians, and there ability to replace a fallen necron is as I know impossible. However even a dead there not dead, just chilling waiting to come back again.

I voted Orks. As to why, in the words of Uthan the Perverse, Eldar Philosopher

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

Tau are the only type one race in our galaxy that I know of. They use lattices of power lines to utilize all the power developed by single planets. I read no mention of Eldar ever getting past type zero, or for that matter any other race.

It is true the Necrons are the only race to overcome their own mortality, but since it is at the expense of reproduction, it can hardly be said to be an advancement to their society. They much like humans are stagnant as a result of this pitfall.




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Orks barely have any ability to generate power. They have not even surpassed the most basic technological pitfalls, and as a result represent a type zero civilization. Admittedly they are the only real threat to the inevitable Tyranid consumption of our galaxy, but even if they won, that would not make them advanced, only tenacious.

If by advanced we aren't just talking about technology, I'd have to say Tyranids. Coming from beyond the galaxy they just roll in and adapt their biology to fit the circumstances. If there's a particularly powerful or intelligent beastie formed, it can be reabsorbed and spawned elsewhere.

Happyjew ninjad...

Why can't biology be technology? Bio-tech is a field is it not? And how is a race that has mastered its own DNA to that level not Technologically advanced? The only other race with even basic mastery of DNA is the Eldar and it is used only sparingly by the Dark Eldar only. Humans use DNA manipulation, but require it to be recovered from fallen soldiers because they can't reproduce the tech at all. DNA manipulation is easy, we are so type zero we barely merit mention and we have the ability to manipulate DNA to fit our needs. In many ways most 40k races are barely more advanced than us in any technology that isn't transportation or weapons tech.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Why can't biology be technology?

I could be wrong, but I believe the definition of "technology" is that there's some external tools involved. Growing longer and sharper finger nails to hunt and kill prey for food isn't technology, but sharpening the tip of a stick to make a spear is technology. Bio-tech is technology because we're using external technology to study/improve/fix biology. So what the Tyranids do is not "technology", but it may still be considered "advanced". At least that's my understanding of the word... but now we're just arguing semantics

Dictionary.com says;


tech·nol·o·gy
[tek-nol-uh-jee] Show IPA
noun
1.
the branch of knowledge that deals with the creation and use of technical means and their interrelation with life, society, and the environment, drawing upon such subjects as industrial arts, engineering, applied science, and pure science.
2.
the terminology of an art, science, etc.; technical nomenclature.
3.
a scientific or industrial process, invention, method, or the like.
4.
the sum of the ways in which social groups provide themselves with the material objects of their civilization.

Tyranid Bio-tech is tech in the same way that growing a wolf over generations into a dog is technology. Technology is any purposeful means by which one manipulates one's self or environment to better suit their needs.

They may be static, but one of the most advanced static races, they built weapons that could hurt gods, even the tyranoids ovoid there very systems.

Well partly dead planets but even they would struggle to bring down a active tomb world.

The eldar are dying, powerful but dieing out, the tau yes potential but they have not even got full warp FTL travel yet.

Humans hand down. The Human race has forgotten more technology than others have . Its just a matter of finding it all! I bet its like it to lost car keys, all in a obvious place they just havent thought to look there yet.

Surely we can not count a species travel tech as the only way to declare them advanced. Again Tau are the only type one species in the galaxy except for the Tyranids. They have mastered the power of whole worlds, utilizing all the energy the planet can provide, and even made designer worlds such as those in the Farsight Enclaves. Tau are a clear second place in my mind to the Tyranids in technology.


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I would argue in many respects current human tech is more advanced than 40k human tech. And in some 20-30 years I expect our level of tech to have so thoroughly surpassed that of Warhammer's Imperium of Man as to render the entire concept a permanent joke in nerd culture.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Dictionary.com says

Like I said, semantics

Only one of these factions can blow up the galaxy by flipping a switch at the Celestial Orrery and ride around with actual reliable time travel.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would argue in many respects current human tech is more advanced than 40k human tech. And in some 20-30 years I expect our level of tech to have so thoroughly surpassed that of Warhammer's Imperium of Man as to render the entire concept a permanent joke in nerd culture.

40k is fantasy in space, so yeah, technology has to be hamstrung for the game to exist.

Eldar or Necrons, Tau trade tech with others like the Demiurg which suggests they don't know as much as they make out.

Also, changing worlds is the yardstick now? Try looking up Maiden Worlds.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Surely we can not count a species travel tech as the only way to declare them advanced. Again Tau are the only type one species in the galaxy except for the Tyranids. They have mastered the power of whole worlds, utilizing all the energy the planet can provide, and even made designer worlds such as those in the Farsight Enclaves. Tau are a clear second place in my mind to the Tyranids in technology.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would argue in many respects current human tech is more advanced than 40k human tech. And in some 20-30 years I expect our level of tech to have so thoroughly surpassed that of Warhammer's Imperium of Man as to render the entire concept a permanent joke in nerd culture.

Okay I'm going to shut down this argument right now because of one reason.

It all depends on the author.

Some are enamored of WW2/1 in space, others have gigajoule meltaguns (that is for comparison, the equivalent of over a ton of TNT, in a rifle sized weapon), petaton lance batteries, Space Marines who can bench press tanks and dodge bullets like it's the matrix, bolters that go through 8 inches of RHA equivalence, and detonate suns.

There is no consistency, there is no canon hierarchy, there is nothing more than a mish mash of interpretations all of which are perfectly legal and valid. A second grader's fanfiction is as good a source on fluff as anything in a codex.

There is no point in debating 40k vs whatever because 40k is whatever you want it to be and you sir are silly for harping on this and should feel like a silly person and never talk about this again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ir0njack wrote:
Humans hand down. The Human race has forgotten more technology than others have . Its just a matter of finding it all! I bet its like it to lost car keys, all in a obvious place they just havent thought to look there yet.

Humanity and the Eldar's peak of technological progress are but pale shadows of what the Necrontyr and Old Ones were in their height.

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Surely we can not count a species travel tech as the only way to declare them advanced. Again Tau are the only type one species in the galaxy except for the Tyranids. They have mastered the power of whole worlds, utilizing all the energy the planet can provide, and even made designer worlds such as those in the Farsight Enclaves. Tau are a clear second place in my mind to the Tyranids in technology.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would argue in many respects current human tech is more advanced than 40k human tech. And in some 20-30 years I expect our level of tech to have so thoroughly surpassed that of Warhammer's Imperium of Man as to render the entire concept a permanent joke in nerd culture.

Okay I'm going to shut down this argument right now because of one reason.

It all depends on the author.

Some are enamored of WW2/1 in space, others have gigajoule meltaguns (that is for comparison, the equivalent of over a ton of TNT, in a rifle sized weapon), petaton lance batteries, Space Marines who can bench press tanks and dodge bullets like it's the matrix, bolters that go through 8 inches of RHA equivalence, and detonate suns.

There is no consistency, there is no canon hierarchy, there is nothing more than a mish mash of interpretations all of which are perfectly legal and valid. A second grader's fanfiction is as good a source on fluff as anything in a codex.

There is no point in debating 40k vs whatever because 40k is whatever you want it to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ir0njack wrote:
Humans hand down. The Human race has forgotten more technology than others have . Its just a matter of finding it all! I bet its like it to lost car keys, all in a obvious place they just havent thought to look there yet.

Humanity and the Eldar's peak of technological progress are but pale shadows of what the Necrontyr and Old Ones were in their height.

Very true, but then we are having a hypothetical conversation of how we see it aren't we. I am displaying my feelings and interpretations, and many others are displaying theirs. We all are killing time by arguing something that doesn't matter, so with your permission Mr. Policeman, I would like to continue having my good time.


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jhe90 wrote:
They may be static, but one of the most advanced static races, they built weapons that could hurt gods, even the tyranoids ovoid there very systems.

Well partly dead planets but even they would struggle to bring down a active tomb world.

The eldar are dying, powerful but dieing out, the tau yes potential but they have not even got full warp FTL travel yet.

I don't know if Tyranids avoid the Nectrons, or if they simply have no interest in them. Tyranids use and feed on biology, and Necrons are cold metal. What would the Tyranids gain by the destruction of the Necrons except a net loss of resources?

 Happyjew wrote:
I voted Orks. As to why, in the words of Uthan the Perverse, Eldar Philosopher

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

This.

Necrons are pretty solidly in first place, so far as "advanced".

Doesn't stop them from getting crapped on by Marines and Daemons though!

I'm not 100% on current fluff, but are the Orks and Eldar still both the genetic creations of the Old One's?

Necrons by far. Necrons have a huge empire and technology that shouldnt be possible. However, their problem is that they really cant advance much. Their creative minds are all either insane or almost mindless. When a race figures out the tech needed to trump the necrons stuff it will be over for them.

I find it fascinating that power creation and consumption as well as culture and political systems mean nothing to people in terms of what makes a society advanced. I also find it fascinating that the number of Galaxies a species inhabits and rules seems to mean nothing.

So efficiency of power plants and total power output is meaningless.
Size of empire is meaningless.
Art and culture are meaningless.
And diplomatic skill and social structure are meaningless.
Adaptability and ingenuity are meaningless.

What seems to matter to war gamers:
Weapon Tech.
Transportation Tech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry folks, I am a Psychologist, and I can't help, but take this opportunity to learn.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Surely we can not count a species travel tech as the only way to declare them advanced. Again Tau are the only type one species in the galaxy except for the Tyranids. They have mastered the power of whole worlds, utilizing all the energy the planet can provide, and even made designer worlds such as those in the Farsight Enclaves. Tau are a clear second place in my mind to the Tyranids in technology.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would argue in many respects current human tech is more advanced than 40k human tech. And in some 20-30 years I expect our level of tech to have so thoroughly surpassed that of Warhammer's Imperium of Man as to render the entire concept a permanent joke in nerd culture.

Okay I'm going to shut down this argument right now because of one reason.

It all depends on the author.

Some are enamored of WW2/1 in space, others have gigajoule meltaguns (that is for comparison, the equivalent of over a ton of TNT, in a rifle sized weapon), petaton lance batteries, Space Marines who can bench press tanks and dodge bullets like it's the matrix, bolters that go through 8 inches of RHA equivalence, and detonate suns.

There is no consistency, there is no canon hierarchy, there is nothing more than a mish mash of interpretations all of which are perfectly legal and valid. A second grader's fanfiction is as good a source on fluff as anything in a codex.

There is no point in debating 40k vs whatever because 40k is whatever you want it to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ir0njack wrote:
Humans hand down. The Human race has forgotten more technology than others have . Its just a matter of finding it all! I bet its like it to lost car keys, all in a obvious place they just havent thought to look there yet.

Humanity and the Eldar's peak of technological progress are but pale shadows of what the Necrontyr and Old Ones were in their height.

Very true, but then we are having a hypothetical conversation of how we see it aren't we. I am displaying my feelings and interpretations, and many others are displaying theirs. We all are killing time by arguing something that doesn't matter, so with your permission Mr. Policeman, I would like to continue having my good time.

And someone could just as easily say "in my 40k, even basic guardsmen and grots fight like Raiden in metal gear rising, Space Marines are the equivalent of "watch me sneeze out this solar system" Superman, while Titan battles are fought like Gurren Lagann" and you'd really not be able to argue against it.

This would probably work mostly as a tongue in cheek parody of science fiction, but 40k already is a tongue in cheek parody of all science fiction from the day of Vernes up to the late eighties, with some later stuff tacked on as time went along.

Now, there is a game that is heavily 40k influenced and abandons all pretense of seriousness with common handguns having more punch than the dinosaur killing meteor, warships destroying planets by ramming them and not getting so much as a scratch on their paint, psions rewriting reality as casually as I'm writing this post, an immortal God-empress of mankind, Exterminatus being done by drive by shootings from ghetto space vans with rolled down windows, a copy pasta'd expy of the Culture from Iain M Banks books not even being close to top dog, Squirrel super-soldiers, the bastard offspring of the Tyranids and the Reapers running around, Halo's Flood in a can being used as run of the mill biological warfare, and millions of warships being lost every day and nobody giving a damn.

It is called Strike Legion, and it is quite possibly the most insanely over the top fun thing I've had. Seriously, check it out.

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Surely we can not count a species travel tech as the only way to declare them advanced. Again Tau are the only type one species in the galaxy except for the Tyranids. They have mastered the power of whole worlds, utilizing all the energy the planet can provide, and even made designer worlds such as those in the Farsight Enclaves. Tau are a clear second place in my mind to the Tyranids in technology.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would argue in many respects current human tech is more advanced than 40k human tech. And in some 20-30 years I expect our level of tech to have so thoroughly surpassed that of Warhammer's Imperium of Man as to render the entire concept a permanent joke in nerd culture.

Okay I'm going to shut down this argument right now because of one reason.

It all depends on the author.

Some are enamored of WW2/1 in space, others have gigajoule meltaguns (that is for comparison, the equivalent of over a ton of TNT, in a rifle sized weapon), petaton lance batteries, Space Marines who can bench press tanks and dodge bullets like it's the matrix, bolters that go through 8 inches of RHA equivalence, and detonate suns.

There is no consistency, there is no canon hierarchy, there is nothing more than a mish mash of interpretations all of which are perfectly legal and valid. A second grader's fanfiction is as good a source on fluff as anything in a codex.

There is no point in debating 40k vs whatever because 40k is whatever you want it to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ir0njack wrote:
Humans hand down. The Human race has forgotten more technology than others have . Its just a matter of finding it all! I bet its like it to lost car keys, all in a obvious place they just havent thought to look there yet.

Humanity and the Eldar's peak of technological progress are but pale shadows of what the Necrontyr and Old Ones were in their height.

Very true, but then we are having a hypothetical conversation of how we see it aren't we. I am displaying my feelings and interpretations, and many others are displaying theirs. We all are killing time by arguing something that doesn't matter, so with your permission Mr. Policeman, I would like to continue having my good time.

And someone could just as easily say "in my 40k, even basic guardsmen and grots fight like Raiden in metal gear rising, Space Marines are the equivalent of "watch me sneeze out this solar system" Superman, while Titan battles are fought like Gurren Lagann" and you'd really not be able to argue against it.

This would probably work mostly as a tongue in cheek parody of science fiction, but 40k already is a tongue in cheek parody of all science fiction from the day of Vernes up to the late eighties, with some later stuff tacked on as time went along.

Now, there is a game that is heavily 40k influenced and abandons all pretense of seriousness with common handguns having more punch than the dinosaur killing meteor, warships destroying planets by ramming them and not getting so much as a scratch on their paint, psions rewriting reality as casually as I'm writing this post, an immortal God-empress of mankind, Exterminatus being done by drive by shootings from ghetto space vans with rolled down windows, a copy pasta'd expy of the Culture from Iain M Banks books not even being close to top dog, Squirrel super-soldiers, the bastard offspring of the Tyranids and the Reapers running around, Halo's Flood in a can being used as run of the mill biological warfare, and millions of warships being lost every day and nobody giving a damn.

It is called Strike Legion, and it is quite possibly the most insanely over the top fun thing I've had. Seriously, check it out.

It does seem like a fun game, but getting back to the matter at hand, you sir seem to be the only one having trouble with the concept. I am thus writing you off as a shameless troll and moving on.

Good day sir.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
I find it fascinating that power creation and consumption as well as culture and political systems mean nothing to people in terms of what makes a society advanced. I also find it fascinating that the number of Galaxies a species inhabits and rules seems to mean nothing.

So efficiency of power plants and total power output is meaningless.
Size of empire is meaningless.
Art and culture are meaningless.
And diplomatic skill and social structure are meaningless.
Adaptability and ingenuity are meaningless.

What seems to matter to war gamers:
Weapon Tech.
Transportation Tech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry folks, I am a Psychologist, and I can't help, but take this opportunity to learn.

The reason for this is that, in the year 40000, a lot of that really is meaningless. Sure, the size of a states domain matters somewhat but in 40k you can lose entire sectors in months to a bigger dog with better guns. The Imperium is huge but they are constantly losing ground.

Likewise, art and culture is meaningless because the individual is meaningless. Tyranids and Necrons have little to none of either and they are powerful.

Diplomacy... In the grim dark future, there is only war. The best you can hope for is that they just want your land instead of your head.

Adaptability and ingenuity are somewhat important. But I believe this has been addressed.

In my opinion, the tech rank looks something like this:

1. Necrons: yeah, these guys kill gods when they are bored, you can't go further than that. It is questionable if they are even "stagnant" or just simply has nowhere to go with their tech: they achieved everything, there is no place to advance.

2. Eldar: just a step behind the Necrons, mostly using metaphysical (Warp/psychic) stuff so they have the advantage of magic over the 3rd and the 4th.

3. Imperium: just a step behind the Eldar as they use mechancial technology so they must abide some rules the Eldar can break because "Magic, and I ain't explainin' sh*t!". Also, the Imperium has crazy dispersion with its tech and some of its stuff looks pretty low-tech even though it is in fact high-tech so the overall "feel" of their technology can be much lower than their actual tech level.

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

5. Chaos: an insane heap of mechanical/bio/metaphysical technology. So they have the ultimate combo, but they are way too crazy to make any use of it other than having it. Guess' the raw potential and the occasional "successful projects" (like the Planet Killer) may give them the edge over the 6th.

6. Tau: shiny and feels really-really advanced but under the surface it is pretty "meh". Their best tech is either hit-or-miss, self-dangerous or eternally condemned to be a one-trick-pony. I don't even know why the Ethereals let the Earth Caste make this mess... They should really get their crap together because they have potential, but they are wasting it on moon-destroying fusion reactors and weapons that kill their users instead of the enemy.

6. Orks: not shiny and feels really-really ramshackle, but under the surface it is really amazing. Their best tech is either hit-or-miss, self-dangerous or eternally condemned to be a one-trick pony. Hey... Wait a minute ... (Yeah, the Orks are actually tied with the Tau on the 6th place).

So in your eyes, a races ability to take land from others and or wipe out other races at will is the only benchmark by which they can be considered advanced?

This is precisely what I find fascinating. Not saying you are wrong, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I sincerely hope you never hold political office of any kind sir.

If one race can wipe out another race, I'd say they're more advanced in the ways that count.

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

This statement shows you have little to no understanding of biology, chemistry, or what bio-tech is capable of. Take some more classes and come back, biology offers endless advancement and boundless possibilities.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Surely we can not count a species travel tech as the only way to declare them advanced. Again Tau are the only type one species in the galaxy except for the Tyranids. They have mastered the power of whole worlds, utilizing all the energy the planet can provide, and even made designer worlds such as those in the Farsight Enclaves. Tau are a clear second place in my mind to the Tyranids in technology.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would argue in many respects current human tech is more advanced than 40k human tech. And in some 20-30 years I expect our level of tech to have so thoroughly surpassed that of Warhammer's Imperium of Man as to render the entire concept a permanent joke in nerd culture.

Okay I'm going to shut down this argument right now because of one reason.

It all depends on the author.

Some are enamored of WW2/1 in space, others have gigajoule meltaguns (that is for comparison, the equivalent of over a ton of TNT, in a rifle sized weapon), petaton lance batteries, Space Marines who can bench press tanks and dodge bullets like it's the matrix, bolters that go through 8 inches of RHA equivalence, and detonate suns.

There is no consistency, there is no canon hierarchy, there is nothing more than a mish mash of interpretations all of which are perfectly legal and valid. A second grader's fanfiction is as good a source on fluff as anything in a codex.

There is no point in debating 40k vs whatever because 40k is whatever you want it to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ir0njack wrote:
Humans hand down. The Human race has forgotten more technology than others have . Its just a matter of finding it all! I bet its like it to lost car keys, all in a obvious place they just havent thought to look there yet.

Humanity and the Eldar's peak of technological progress are but pale shadows of what the Necrontyr and Old Ones were in their height.

Very true, but then we are having a hypothetical conversation of how we see it aren't we. I am displaying my feelings and interpretations, and many others are displaying theirs. We all are killing time by arguing something that doesn't matter, so with your permission Mr. Policeman, I would like to continue having my good time.

And someone could just as easily say "in my 40k, even basic guardsmen and grots fight like Raiden in metal gear rising, Space Marines are the equivalent of "watch me sneeze out this solar system" Superman, while Titan battles are fought like Gurren Lagann" and you'd really not be able to argue against it.

This would probably work mostly as a tongue in cheek parody of science fiction, but 40k already is a tongue in cheek parody of all science fiction from the day of Vernes up to the late eighties, with some later stuff tacked on as time went along.

Now, there is a game that is heavily 40k influenced and abandons all pretense of seriousness with common handguns having more punch than the dinosaur killing meteor, warships destroying planets by ramming them and not getting so much as a scratch on their paint, psions rewriting reality as casually as I'm writing this post, an immortal God-empress of mankind, Exterminatus being done by drive by shootings from ghetto space vans with rolled down windows, a copy pasta'd expy of the Culture from Iain M Banks books not even being close to top dog, Squirrel super-soldiers, the bastard offspring of the Tyranids and the Reapers running around, Halo's Flood in a can being used as run of the mill biological warfare, and millions of warships being lost every day and nobody giving a damn.

It is called Strike Legion, and it is quite possibly the most insanely over the top fun thing I've had. Seriously, check it out.

It does seem like a fun game, but getting back to the matter at hand, you sir seem to be the only one having trouble with the concept. I am thus writing you off as a shameless troll and moving on.

Good day sir.

I just don't see a point to this thread when the Necrons quite clearly have the edge with the likes of the Celestial Orrery, functional time travel, tamed a species of casual solar system destroying reality warpers/energy vampires, and a mastery of materium based sciences so sophisticated that any tech capable of functioning at similar capacities as theirs has to cheat via the warp, and thus invite disaster.

Psychic tech? Well clearly that's either the Eldar or Chaos' ball game, but the Eldar don't need to cheat via daemon binding to get theirs to work.

Bio-sciences? The Tyranids violate virtually every rule of biology just by existing without usage of warp-cheats. So I'm just gonna say they run on hive mind magic and call it a day.

What you want other answers?

Chaos does have a pretty good handle on bio-tech, but it's clear that they utilize the warp for much of it.

Ork medical science is helped a lot by Ork physiology letting them handle procedures that would kill a human, tau, or eldar at least a dozen times over in grotesquely painful ways.

The Imperium? The Space Marine creation process apparently involves at least some genetic engineering, and well, the laws of biology pretty much say that a space marine as presented to us is an utter impossibility. The Primarchs are doubly impossible.

The Eldar? If something does not kill you before you can reach medical aid, Eldar medical science will not only fix you up, but do it so perfectly that no one would ever know that you were used as a chew toy by a carnifex.

The Dark Eldar? They can bring back the dead from the smallest scraps of the body without any disruption of consciousness. They modify their bodies as easily as we change clothes without any apparent complications. Even with nano-technology, this doesn't seem like something we can ever do as casually and easily as the Dark Eldar without killing us, or abandoning the flesh altogether.

Necrons? Who knows.

Old Ones? Who knows, it was just very good. That's all you'll get.

Tau? Well they can apparently engram someone's memories onto a chip that can be easily implanted into the brain and figure out a pheromone based language very shortly after meeting the Vespids. I'd reckon that Tau hospitals are pretty good, not Eldar good, but good.

Also, get off your high horse. This is the internet, not a debate house with stiltedly over-formal dialogue.

So from your stand point if the human race is wiped out by a mindless lifeless virus, the virus is more advanced? Sounds like you are agreeing Tyranids are the top tier sir!

A "lifeless virus" is an oxymoron.

But, yes.

As we've seen, the Tyranids are getting crushed throughout most of the Galaxy though, with Leviathan being the only hive fleet that can put up a fight.

And, by your own criteria (" power creation, civilian tech, and social/political systems" (none of which is actually technology)), the Tyranids suck at most forms of technology.

The Imperium? The Space Marine creation process apparently involves at least some genetic engineering, and well, the laws of biology pretty much say that a space marine as presented to us is an utter impossibility. The Primarchs are doubly impossible.

In what way do the "laws of biology" forbid space marines? I minored in bio, and everything I learned says that they are extremely possible, and in what way do tyranids defy biology? Even the hive mind can be explained through current biological knowledge.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

This statement shows you have little to no understanding of biology, chemistry, or what bio-tech is capable of. Take some more classes and come back, biology offers endless advancement and boundless possibilities.

I mostly meant energy efficiency issues. AFAIK, you can't even touch the best energy sources (like anti-matter) with only biological technology. And then you have this life expectancy thing going on where your biotech degrades much quicker than mechanical tech meaning you need surplus energy to "regrow" your tech continuously.

Their ships produce vast amounts of energy, as do many of their biomorphs, their entire civilization is a massive energy generator, and the energy produced is sued to spawn more hive ships and soldiers. And their social political system is so thoroughly evolved they suffer no revolutions or internal struggles and work solely for the hive mind. It is in many ways the perfect political system. And as every tyranid dex has stated, the fleets that have struck here are only scouts. Future fleets will include biomorphs designed solely to crush the lifeforms of our galaxy. They have all the time in the world.

And to say none of that is actually tech is to argue semantics again. See previously posted statements for details.

In my opinion, the most advanced race is the Eldar.

They are a post-singularity society who failed at the final gate, but they still have near infinite power production capabilities, sufficiently advanced technology, and the only culture in the entire galaxy that supports true gender and racial equality.

Males and females are completely equal in Eldar culture. Craftworlders and Exodites are completely equal in Eldar culture, just acknowledged as different. Leadership is determined by ability rather than politics. Maintenance workers have the same quality of life as artisans and leaders.

The Eldar also have mastered technology that provides life after death through the Infinity Circuits. They have the technology to manipulate the weak nuclear force (gravity). They have the magitech to manipulate the future. They have the ability to create self-sustaining planets with full ecologies that operate independently of any sun.

They may not quite break relativity like the Necrons, but in my opinion their social advancement more than makes up the difference.

The Tyranids, on the other hand, do not have a culture at all. They are a single entity with many bodies, there is no space there for any culture to be advanced.

I think the Eldar's gender equality alone is what sets them above the rest in technological advancement.

In fact, I think I'm going to write about that on my tumblr.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
So in your eyes, a races ability to take land from others and or wipe out other races at will is the only benchmark by which they can be considered advanced?

This is precisely what I find fascinating. Not saying you are wrong, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I sincerely hope you never hold political office of any kind sir.

That is because in the environment they are in that is the best policy to have. The races that tried to be diplomatic and merciful are all dead now. There are many beings out there in the the grimdark galaxy that would delight in your death. The only way a race can get anywhere in a incredibly hostile galaxy is to adopt a "kill everyone else" policy. That is what makes all of this truly grim dark. Not only are the main races incredibly genocidal but they are completely justified in being so.

In other words, those qualities are ideal for the setting they are in.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

This statement shows you have little to no understanding of biology, chemistry, or what bio-tech is capable of. Take some more classes and come back, biology offers endless advancement and boundless possibilities.

I mostly meant energy efficiency issues. AFAIK, you can't even touch the best energy sources (like anti-matter) with only biological technology. And then you have this life expectancy thing going on where your biotech degrades much quicker than mechanical tech meaning you need surplus energy to "regrow" your tech continuously.

Anti-matter could easily be formed through biological processes, like a biological matter accelerator, and stored in biologically created electromagnetic fields powered by muscle driven electrical fields. The ensuing reaction could be contained using a biological organ that evolved to form carbon nano tubes that line it, and the energy could be absorbed through an altered form of photosynthesis and transferred using chemical processes to meet any need imaginable. There is nothing technology can do biology can't.

As for degradation, look up the work of Aubrey de Grey. Soon humans wont even age, and we will be able to control, and even reverse our appearance as it relates to age. Biotech does not need to break down, unless it is poorly designed that is.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

This statement shows you have little to no understanding of biology, chemistry, or what bio-tech is capable of. Take some more classes and come back, biology offers endless advancement and boundless possibilities.

Pardon?

No really, pardon?

Did you really just insinuate that you could bioengineer a creature to function as well as any possible machine at the same task?

No, that's dumb.

A biological entity will always be restricted to chemical sources for energy, whereas a machine could very well run off of more intense and efficient in terms of amount of energy from a given amount of matter energy sources such as nuclear reactions for one thing.

Without telepathic hive mind shenanigans, biological organisms can never be as coordinated as an inter-locked network of machines. Pheromones, vocalizations, visual cues, all of these are inferior to the very types of communications used by something as simple as a cell phone.

A hard and fast limitation to the durability of anything organic is the need to get nutrients flowing to whatever organic structure you are developing, this induces structural weaknesses that machines don't have. There's a reason why bones are porous while you can have a slab of composites on a Tank.

So many of the problems that arise with bioengineering versus robotics is that with bioengineering, you ultimately have to make concessions to let the creature live, thus creating weaknesses. You need your organs, you need your metabolization, your overly large and not at all space efficient (by robot standards) brain, you can't use any of the really high end energy sources, you need to maintain a rather strict degree of hemeostasis, and so on so forth.

Whereas with a robot or hell, a mass of shapeshifting nanites, you can eliminate all the inefficiencies inherent to organic life that make them inferior platforms. You can work within a tolerance range that no organic matter can handle, you don't have to muck about with fickle chemistry or worry about biological agents, no need to muck about with DNA to make new designs, just blue-print out something to efficiently handle whatever job you want it to do and get it rolling out of production or assembled by nanomachines.

tl;dr: Genetic Engineering is so 1980s, the future is in Nanomachines, son.

If this were basketball Necrons would be LeBron and everyone else would be toddlers with a beachball.

technology: Necrons
civilian tech: Ork
social/political systems: Ork

overall Ork

 Desubot wrote:
technology: Necrons
civilian tech: Ork
social/political systems: Ork

overall Ork

Da Biggest is Da Boss

 Zande4 wrote:
If this were basketball Necrons would be LeBron and everyone else would be toddlers with a beachball.

The problem with that analogy is that it would mean that LeBron has frequently been beaten by toddlers.

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

This statement shows you have little to no understanding of biology, chemistry, or what bio-tech is capable of. Take some more classes and come back, biology offers endless advancement and boundless possibilities.

Pardon?

No really, pardon?

Did you really just insinuate that you could bioengineer a creature to function as well as any possible machine at the same task?

No, that's dumb.

A biological entity will always be restricted to chemical sources for energy, whereas a machine could very well run off of more intense and efficient in terms of amount of energy from a given amount of matter energy sources such as nuclear reactions for one thing.

Without telepathic hive mind shenanigans, biological organisms can never be as coordinated as an inter-locked network of machines. Pheromones, vocalizations, visual cues, all of these are inferior to the very types of communications used by something as simple as a cell phone.

A hard and fast limitation to the durability of anything organic is the need to get nutrients flowing to whatever organic structure you are developing, this induces structural weaknesses that machines don't have. There's a reason why bones are porous while you can have a slab of composites on a Tank.

So many of the problems that arise with bioengineering versus robotics is that with bioengineering, you ultimately have to make concessions to let the creature live, thus creating weaknesses. You need your organs, you need your metabolization, your overly large and not at all space efficient (by robot standards) brain, you can't use any of the really high end energy sources, you need to maintain a rather strict degree of hemeostasis, and so on so forth.

Whereas with a robot or hell, a mass of shapeshifting nanites, you can eliminate all the inefficiencies inherent to organic life that make them inferior platforms. You can work within a tolerance range that no organic matter can handle, you don't have to muck about with fickle chemistry or worry about biological agents, no need to muck about with DNA to make new designs, just blue-print out something to efficiently handle whatever job you want it to do and get it rolling out of production or assembled by nanomachines.

tl;dr: Genetic Engineering is so 1980s, the future is in Nanomachines, son.

Keep trying super troll, I find your uninformed musing to be quite entertaining. I would pit an army of microscopic insects against nano machines any day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also who says a brain can't give off/detect electromagnetic signals on its own?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Spoiler:

In my opinion, the most advanced race is the Eldar.

They are a post-singularity society who failed at the final gate, but they still have near infinite power production capabilities, sufficiently advanced technology, and the only culture in the entire galaxy that supports true gender and racial equality.

Males and females are completely equal in Eldar culture. Craftworlders and Exodites are completely equal in Eldar culture, just acknowledged as different. Leadership is determined by ability rather than politics. Maintenance workers have the same quality of life as artisans and leaders.

The Eldar also have mastered technology that provides life after death through the Infinity Circuits. They have the technology to manipulate the weak nuclear force (gravity). They have the magitech to manipulate the future. They have the ability to create self-sustaining planets with full ecologies that operate independently of any sun.

They may not quite break relativity like the Necrons, but in my opinion their social advancement more than makes up the difference.

The Tyranids, on the other hand, do not have a culture at all. They are a single entity with many bodies, there is no space there for any culture to be advanced.

I voted humans because even though they are in a constant state of downfall and they have stagnated technologically the technology that they do have is extremely advanced.

Take the Adeptus Astartes. The power armor and Black Carapace implants are literally wonders of technological advancement. To make a man genetically superior in every fashion in body and then find a way to take a powered armor suit that probably weighs a freaking ton, and through neural implants enable that soldier to move without resistance is a big deal. From what I have seen no other race can claim that. Tau are close, but they still require pilots for their suits (again not positive on the fluff here so feel free to correct me) and the mobility of the suit is limited to the capabilities of the pilot and the suit restrictions. Power Armor on a Space Marine is as mobile, agile and even more durable than the man wearing it. While it does not make them invincible, it certainly allows them to take ridiculous amounts of punishment, and according to fluff most races regard space marines as resilient and incredibly tough to kill. The mere presence of Space Marines makes commanders of other races completely alter their strategy on the field of battle to be able to handle them.

While humanity has not conquered death like the Necrons, they have figured out ways to cheat it and extend said life span many times over. Bjorn the Fell-Handed is over 10,000 years old because he is entombed in a dreadnought and kept in stasis. Cervan Dante is at least 1,100 years old. Dreadnought technology in particular might be a way for the humans to effectively live forever much like the Necrons, the only difference being that while Necrons need no regular maintenance, a dreadnought requires power and upkeep.

Weapons wise I think that Humanity is certainly outclassed by the Tau, but they are no slouch either. They may not have the fanciest weapons, but with the exception of plasma weaponry they have remarkably reliable weapons. They can exterminate entire planets for crying out loud.

Mankind also has the technology to sustain itself. Quadrillions of humans is not a thing that you can manage without some form of advanced tech to make it all work.

My first vote would have gone to Necrons but I feel that the tech that they do have is what survived the 60,000,000 year sleep and they haven't really shown anything outside of just weaponry. Also they cannot reproduce themselves making them finite in a sense, but they don't need to so there is an eternal argument there LOL.

Tau I feel have the most potential however, and given more time they would certainly surpass everyone, but I think that they have grown out of their age of advancing rapidly and due to being bogged down by constant expansion and warfare they don't have the time to develop as quickly as they could.

Now. I know about zip about Eldar so take that into account while reading all of this, and I call fair if any disagree with me

Orks are da best. Shokk attack gun ftw. Our technology might not be the most advanced, but we can make brutal weapons out of scrap.

necrons for most advanced tech
Orks for the most killy (and dangerous) tech

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

This statement shows you have little to no understanding of biology, chemistry, or what bio-tech is capable of. Take some more classes and come back, biology offers endless advancement and boundless possibilities.

Even with our current technology we've made materials that are much stronger than the strongest, devices that are faster than the fastest, bigger than the biggest and killier than the killiest things in nature or indeed that you could create from any known biological matter. It comes down to materials, the awesomeness of what you can create is limited by the materials you have available and biological things will typically have worse materials than what you can fabricate, so it's hardly ignorant to feel biology has stricter limits than mechanical devices.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
In my opinion, the most advanced race is the Eldar.

They are a post-singularity society who failed at the final gate, but they still have near infinite power production capabilities, sufficiently advanced technology, and the only culture in the entire galaxy that supports true gender and racial equality.

Males and females are completely equal in Eldar culture. Craftworlders and Exodites are completely equal in Eldar culture, just acknowledged as different. Leadership is determined by ability rather than politics. Maintenance workers have the same quality of life as artisans and leaders.

The Eldar also have mastered technology that provides life after death through the Infinity Circuits. They have the technology to manipulate the weak nuclear force (gravity). They have the magitech to manipulate the future. They have the ability to create self-sustaining planets with full ecologies that operate independently of any sun.

They may not quite break relativity like the Necrons, but in my opinion their social advancement more than makes up the difference.

The Tyranids, on the other hand, do not have a culture at all. They are a single entity with many bodies, there is no space there for any culture to be advanced.

While I agree with a lot of what you said Im going to have to disagree on your points on their social system. My contention is that it is not very unique.

While at first glance Eldar may seen like the most egalitarian society the truth is that the Tau and IoM are similar to them in that regard. In the Imperium it matters not your gender or what color your skin is. All may serve and die for the Emperor. The IoM may come off as patriarchal at first but I would chalk that up to the wonderful BL writers. There is nothing stopping women or non light skinned people from becoming even a High Lord of Terra.

The Tau see all Tau as equal. Even the lowly earth-caste worker is no worse than a fire warrior. Everyone has their place.

I dont understand your point about racial equality. Are exodite Eldar seen as a different race like modern America views race? Do such concepts exist in the 41st millenium?

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

This statement shows you have little to no understanding of biology, chemistry, or what bio-tech is capable of. Take some more classes and come back, biology offers endless advancement and boundless possibilities.

Pardon?

No really, pardon?

Did you really just insinuate that you could bioengineer a creature to function as well as any possible machine at the same task?

No, that's dumb.

A biological entity will always be restricted to chemical sources for energy, whereas a machine could very well run off of more intense and efficient in terms of amount of energy from a given amount of matter energy sources such as nuclear reactions for one thing.

Without telepathic hive mind shenanigans, biological organisms can never be as coordinated as an inter-locked network of machines. Pheromones, vocalizations, visual cues, all of these are inferior to the very types of communications used by something as simple as a cell phone.

A hard and fast limitation to the durability of anything organic is the need to get nutrients flowing to whatever organic structure you are developing, this induces structural weaknesses that machines don't have. There's a reason why bones are porous while you can have a slab of composites on a Tank.

So many of the problems that arise with bioengineering versus robotics is that with bioengineering, you ultimately have to make concessions to let the creature live, thus creating weaknesses. You need your organs, you need your metabolization, your overly large and not at all space efficient (by robot standards) brain, you can't use any of the really high end energy sources, you need to maintain a rather strict degree of hemeostasis, and so on so forth.

Whereas with a robot or hell, a mass of shapeshifting nanites, you can eliminate all the inefficiencies inherent to organic life that make them inferior platforms. You can work within a tolerance range that no organic matter can handle, you don't have to muck about with fickle chemistry or worry about biological agents, no need to muck about with DNA to make new designs, just blue-print out something to efficiently handle whatever job you want it to do and get it rolling out of production or assembled by nanomachines.

tl;dr: Genetic Engineering is so 1980s, the future is in Nanomachines, son.

Keep trying super troll, I find your uninformed musing to be quite entertaining. I would pit an army of microscopic insects against nano machines any day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also who says a brain can't give off/detect electromagnetic signals on its own?

I have a masters in Paleontology and took some courses in Nanotechnology. I know what I'm talking about, and the thing is, a mechanical hegemonizing swarm is going to be vastly larger and more efficient than an organic counterpart.

If I had a faction of robotic tyranid like enemies added to 40k, they'd quite quickly end up outnumbering the Tyranids by a massive margin because there's so much more material for the creation of inorganic devices than there is biomass for living beings.

Even disregarding nanotech, there is two trillion tons of biomass on the Earth, that's a big number right?

Well the Earth is primarily Iron and Nickel by weight when taken as a whole (the 50% oxygen, 25% silicon figure is mostly based on the crust), to the point where there is sextillions of tons of metal on the Earth.

That is literally a billion times more matter to work with.

So what the Tyranids would need to strip an entire galaxy of life to achieve, my robot doomswarm would need only a single planet.

And this doomswarm would keep on growing, and it can devour any planet or space rock, not just those with biomass or chemicals useful for organic life. So it can eat the whole solar system too, and then this swarm keeps on growing, devouring every solid object it finds, and by now dwarfs the Tyranids, Orks, and Humanity combined in terms of numbers.

When it runs into an inhabited planet, it can throw what amounts to the entire Tyranid genus with the most generous possible estimates, at this one single planet, and it would be at best a drop in the bucket of it's total resources.

I keep on going with this berserker von neumann nightmare until the entirety of the galaxy is cleansed of anything but these constantly adapting, geometrically self improving machines that can keep on building smarter and smarter versions of their own A.I to design more and more sophisticated technology.

Even without FTL I could clean the entire galaxy in a few million years, with FTL I'd overwhelm every faction in 40k in perhaps even a few centuries, even Chaos flickers and dies as I completely cleanse the galaxy of all life capable of emotion. Maybe I can even kill everyone sooner depending on how fast I can von neumann my way to victory.

So that's right, a competently designed von neumann swarm I literally just scribbled out a few minutes ago, would break the entire setting through simply outproducing everyone by a ridiculous margin until I can fairly say that I have more capital ships than the Imperium has guardsmen.

As for your nonsense about psychics, we have studied this for decades now, and every reputable source says that psychic powers are complete bunk on every single level. The theory is wrong, the evidence is not there or is outright falsified, Occam's razor and studies have shown that it's mostly down to stage tricks and being really good at groxgakking and cold reading people. If there were some, any mechanism that allowed for organic brains to pull a Yuri and start turning that pandora's box of electrical signals into a two way communicator then science hasn't found one.

And if you want to discuss "well, what if science was wrong" then I'm going to have to cut you short before you start furthering this bio-spank.

Well kain, we know who to ask if we want to comit some inter planetery genocide. Maybe take down a galaxy or two.

The people you come across in a war gaming forum!

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

This statement shows you have little to no understanding of biology, chemistry, or what bio-tech is capable of. Take some more classes and come back, biology offers endless advancement and boundless possibilities.

Pardon?

No really, pardon?

Did you really just insinuate that you could bioengineer a creature to function as well as any possible machine at the same task?

No, that's dumb.

A biological entity will always be restricted to chemical sources for energy, whereas a machine could very well run off of more intense and efficient in terms of amount of energy from a given amount of matter energy sources such as nuclear reactions for one thing.

Without telepathic hive mind shenanigans, biological organisms can never be as coordinated as an inter-locked network of machines. Pheromones, vocalizations, visual cues, all of these are inferior to the very types of communications used by something as simple as a cell phone.

A hard and fast limitation to the durability of anything organic is the need to get nutrients flowing to whatever organic structure you are developing, this induces structural weaknesses that machines don't have. There's a reason why bones are porous while you can have a slab of composites on a Tank.

So many of the problems that arise with bioengineering versus robotics is that with bioengineering, you ultimately have to make concessions to let the creature live, thus creating weaknesses. You need your organs, you need your metabolization, your overly large and not at all space efficient (by robot standards) brain, you can't use any of the really high end energy sources, you need to maintain a rather strict degree of hemeostasis, and so on so forth.

Whereas with a robot or hell, a mass of shapeshifting nanites, you can eliminate all the inefficiencies inherent to organic life that make them inferior platforms. You can work within a tolerance range that no organic matter can handle, you don't have to muck about with fickle chemistry or worry about biological agents, no need to muck about with DNA to make new designs, just blue-print out something to efficiently handle whatever job you want it to do and get it rolling out of production or assembled by nanomachines.

tl;dr: Genetic Engineering is so 1980s, the future is in Nanomachines, son.

Keep trying super troll, I find your uninformed musing to be quite entertaining. I would pit an army of microscopic insects against nano machines any day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also who says a brain can't give off/detect electromagnetic signals on its own?

I have a masters in Paleontology and took some courses in Nanotechnology. I know what I'm talking about, and the thing is, a mechanical hegemonizing swarm is going to be vastly larger and more efficient than an organic counterpart.

If I had a faction of robotic tyranid like enemies added to 40k, they'd quite quickly end up outnumbering the Tyranids by a massive margin because there's so much more material for the creation of inorganic devices than there is biomass for living beings.

Even disregarding nanotech, there is two trillion tons of biomass on the Earth, that's a big number right?

Well the Earth is primarily Iron and Nickel by weight when taken as a whole (the 50% oxygen, 25% silicon figure is mostly based on the crust), to the point where there is sextillions of tons of metal on the Earth.

That is literally a billion times more matter to work with.

So what the Tyranids would need to strip an entire galaxy of life to achieve, my robot doomswarm would need only a single planet.

And this doomswarm would keep on growing, and it can devour any planet or space rock, not just those with biomass or chemicals useful for organic life. So it can eat the whole solar system too, and then this swarm keeps on growing, devouring every solid object it finds, and by now dwarfs the Tyranids, Orks, and Humanity combined in terms of numbers.

When it runs into an inhabited planet, it can throw what amounts to the entire Tyranid genus with the most generous possible estimates, at this one single planet, and it would be at best a drop in the bucket of it's total resources.

I keep on going with this berserker von neumann nightmare until the entirety of the galaxy is cleansed of anything but these constantly adapting, geometrically self improving machines that can keep on building smarter and smarter versions of their own A.I to design more and more sophisticated technology.

Even without FTL I could clean the entire galaxy in a few million years, with FTL I'd overwhelm every faction in 40k in perhaps even a few centuries, even Chaos flickers and dies as I completely cleanse the galaxy of all life capable of emotion. Maybe I can even kill everyone sooner depending on how fast I can von neumann my way to victory.

So that's right, a competently designed von neumann swarm I literally just scribbled out a few minutes ago, would break the entire setting through simply outproducing everyone by a ridiculous margin until I can fairly say that I have more capital ships than the Imperium has guardsmen.

As for your nonsense about psychics, we have studied this for decades now, and every reputable source says that psychic powers are complete bunk on every single level. The theory is wrong, the evidence is not there or is outright falsified, Occam's razor and studies have shown that it's mostly down to stage tricks and being really good at groxgakking and cold reading people. If there were some, any mechanism that allowed for organic brains to pull a Yuri and start turning that pandora's box of electrical signals into a two way communicator then science hasn't found one.

And if you want to discuss "well, what if science was wrong" then I'm going to have to cut you short before you start furthering this bio-spank.

Let me bake your noodle for a minute. What is more advanced? The nanoswarm, or the organic being that created the nanoswarm? One could argue that in the end the nanoswarm would be, but then, wouldn't the being that created it be just as advanced on a level for creating something that was that adaptable?

Also, just for sh*ts and giggles...after the nanoswarm completely consumes everything what else can it do? Sure it conquers the universe and destroys/assimilates everything, but after that...then what? It can't advance any further, and thus would eventually be limited by available resources...which, you know, after assimilating/destroying everything, would be zero. Or limited to whatever it can produce on it's own.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with either side, but rather showing the stalemate I feel you two are battling over.

Tech is certainly more resilient, and efficient, but in the end Biology can be efficient in it's own ways. Biology can, for example create ways for it to cheat natural limitations, and a nano swarm would have to do the same. Simply put, one does it faster because that is all it can do. Biology gets hunkered down by petty things like feelings, and ambitions...and stuff XD

I voted necron buts I'm thinking imperium with all the STCs will have maybe better tech.

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

This statement shows you have little to no understanding of biology, chemistry, or what bio-tech is capable of. Take some more classes and come back, biology offers endless advancement and boundless possibilities.

Pardon?

No really, pardon?

Did you really just insinuate that you could bioengineer a creature to function as well as any possible machine at the same task?

No, that's dumb.

A biological entity will always be restricted to chemical sources for energy, whereas a machine could very well run off of more intense and efficient in terms of amount of energy from a given amount of matter energy sources such as nuclear reactions for one thing.

Without telepathic hive mind shenanigans, biological organisms can never be as coordinated as an inter-locked network of machines. Pheromones, vocalizations, visual cues, all of these are inferior to the very types of communications used by something as simple as a cell phone.

A hard and fast limitation to the durability of anything organic is the need to get nutrients flowing to whatever organic structure you are developing, this induces structural weaknesses that machines don't have. There's a reason why bones are porous while you can have a slab of composites on a Tank.

So many of the problems that arise with bioengineering versus robotics is that with bioengineering, you ultimately have to make concessions to let the creature live, thus creating weaknesses. You need your organs, you need your metabolization, your overly large and not at all space efficient (by robot standards) brain, you can't use any of the really high end energy sources, you need to maintain a rather strict degree of hemeostasis, and so on so forth.

Whereas with a robot or hell, a mass of shapeshifting nanites, you can eliminate all the inefficiencies inherent to organic life that make them inferior platforms. You can work within a tolerance range that no organic matter can handle, you don't have to muck about with fickle chemistry or worry about biological agents, no need to muck about with DNA to make new designs, just blue-print out something to efficiently handle whatever job you want it to do and get it rolling out of production or assembled by nanomachines.

tl;dr: Genetic Engineering is so 1980s, the future is in Nanomachines, son.

Keep trying super troll, I find your uninformed musing to be quite entertaining. I would pit an army of microscopic insects against nano machines any day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also who says a brain can't give off/detect electromagnetic signals on its own?

I have a masters in Paleontology and took some courses in Nanotechnology. I know what I'm talking about, and the thing is, a mechanical hegemonizing swarm is going to be vastly larger and more efficient than an organic counterpart.

If I had a faction of robotic tyranid like enemies added to 40k, they'd quite quickly end up outnumbering the Tyranids by a massive margin because there's so much more material for the creation of inorganic devices than there is biomass for living beings.

Even disregarding nanotech, there is two trillion tons of biomass on the Earth, that's a big number right?

Well the Earth is primarily Iron and Nickel by weight when taken as a whole (the 50% oxygen, 25% silicon figure is mostly based on the crust), to the point where there is sextillions of tons of metal on the Earth.

That is literally a billion times more matter to work with.

So what the Tyranids would need to strip an entire galaxy of life to achieve, my robot doomswarm would need only a single planet.

And this doomswarm would keep on growing, and it can devour any planet or space rock, not just those with biomass or chemicals useful for organic life. So it can eat the whole solar system too, and then this swarm keeps on growing, devouring every solid object it finds, and by now dwarfs the Tyranids, Orks, and Humanity combined in terms of numbers.

When it runs into an inhabited planet, it can throw what amounts to the entire Tyranid genus with the most generous possible estimates, at this one single planet, and it would be at best a drop in the bucket of it's total resources.

I keep on going with this berserker von neumann nightmare until the entirety of the galaxy is cleansed of anything but these constantly adapting, geometrically self improving machines that can keep on building smarter and smarter versions of their own A.I to design more and more sophisticated technology.

Even without FTL I could clean the entire galaxy in a few million years, with FTL I'd overwhelm every faction in 40k in perhaps even a few centuries, even Chaos flickers and dies as I completely cleanse the galaxy of all life capable of emotion. Maybe I can even kill everyone sooner depending on how fast I can von neumann my way to victory.

So that's right, a competently designed von neumann swarm I literally just scribbled out a few minutes ago, would break the entire setting through simply outproducing everyone by a ridiculous margin until I can fairly say that I have more capital ships than the Imperium has guardsmen.

As for your nonsense about psychics, we have studied this for decades now, and every reputable source says that psychic powers are complete bunk on every single level. The theory is wrong, the evidence is not there or is outright falsified, Occam's razor and studies have shown that it's mostly down to stage tricks and being really good at groxgakking and cold reading people. If there were some, any mechanism that allowed for organic brains to pull a Yuri and start turning that pandora's box of electrical signals into a two way communicator then science hasn't found one.

And if you want to discuss "well, what if science was wrong" then I'm going to have to cut you short before you start furthering this bio-spank.

You are misinterpreting a great many statements I have made.

First that biomass can outnumber inorganic matter.
Quite to the contrary, I disagree that this is possible, but contend that inorganic matter can become used by biological entities to form new bodies, that is to say it is possible to have microbes that incorporate inorganic matter into their membranes, DNA, and organelles.

I am a biohacker in my free time, currently attempting to, and marginally succeeding in, producing cyanobacteria with more plastids. My goal is to increase the overall efficiency of cyanobacteria in terms of CO2 depletion and O2 production as a way to cheaply and efficiently replace oxygen scrubbers in space craft. If I am successful my cyanobacteria will in a few years allow our astronauts to breathe in space for far longer, and far more safely then they currently do.

Another project I am working on, something more of a pipe dream, is to create an organism that produces a large shell of thick carbon nano tubes. This organism will, if I have my way, replace our spacecraft, producing the entire completed hull of the craft with zero human oversight using CO2 as its primary tool to produce the hull.

I would like to see large organic carbon nano tube lined hydrogen ram jet ships piloting our race into the future.

Secondly about psychic powers;
I am a psychologist and Neurologist currently working towards my doctorate, I am intimately aware that humans or for that matter no other creature exhibits psychic behaviors of any kind. However I am also aware that a great many creatures are able to detect electromagnetic waves we can not (Bats, dogs, etc.), and fields we can not (Birds, and other migratory creatures). It is not unreasonable to say a group of creatures could call each other with their thoughts using radio waves. They could have bones that resonate at the right frequencies allowing them to even change the channels they are tuning into. Listening in to specific voices if you will. I suggest no magic, or immaterial forces at work, only what I know as a scientist.

It is not only possible, but likely that we will find life utilizing just about every form of matter we can conceive of somewhere in the galaxy. Creatures may eat uranium, move using plasma pulses, and see using magnetic fields. Life is a strange thing, and it will always evolve to best suit it's surroundings.

Bio-tech provides a way for us to increase the rate of reproduction, and evolution, to instantly produce anything we could need the moment we need it. We can control the rate of meiosis, the degradation of cells, and even the power output of mitochondria. The options are limitless.

As for your classes in nano tech, every field believes itself the best. I am on team bio and you are are team tech, only time will tell who wins and why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention even the largest nanite swarm can be foiled by a single frequency jammer set to the right frequency band. If they can not communicate the limited processing capabilities of the individual nanites, limited to the movements of at even their most advanced stage, strings, will be unable to complete any task at all, and will become a useless ball of junk.

I was kind of stuck on either necrons or eldar. Necrons have better tech as we think about if but eldar have the social side.

If we go buy average tech, and what we think of as tech (ex. a computer). I'd rate them like this
1. Necrons
2. Eldar
3. Imperium at it's peak (possibly, I don't know ho widespread the tech was.)
4. Tau
5. Imperium now
6. Orks

If we go by max tech I'd say something like this
1. Necrons
2. Eldar
4. Imperium
5. Tau

And I have know idea where to put orks

On an current innovation scale I'd put this
1. Tau
2. Eldar, Necrons
3. Orks
4. Imperium

And on my personal scale of unaffected innovation that I'd put this
1. Necrons
2. Tau, Humans
3. Orks, Eldar

This is because orks and eldar were pre-programmed by the old ones and are not soley responible for their own innovation wher tau, humans, and necrons are.

Please note, this is just my opinion

 AtoMaki wrote:
... weapons that kill their users instead of the enemy...

You mean like plasma guns .
Although we should not that they only kill you if you overcharge them. That means taking them past what they were built for which is, of course, dangerous.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

This statement shows you have little to no understanding of biology, chemistry, or what bio-tech is capable of. Take some more classes and come back, biology offers endless advancement and boundless possibilities.

Pardon?

No really, pardon?

Did you really just insinuate that you could bioengineer a creature to function as well as any possible machine at the same task?

No, that's dumb.

A biological entity will always be restricted to chemical sources for energy, whereas a machine could very well run off of more intense and efficient in terms of amount of energy from a given amount of matter energy sources such as nuclear reactions for one thing.

Without telepathic hive mind shenanigans, biological organisms can never be as coordinated as an inter-locked network of machines. Pheromones, vocalizations, visual cues, all of these are inferior to the very types of communications used by something as simple as a cell phone.

A hard and fast limitation to the durability of anything organic is the need to get nutrients flowing to whatever organic structure you are developing, this induces structural weaknesses that machines don't have. There's a reason why bones are porous while you can have a slab of composites on a Tank.

So many of the problems that arise with bioengineering versus robotics is that with bioengineering, you ultimately have to make concessions to let the creature live, thus creating weaknesses. You need your organs, you need your metabolization, your overly large and not at all space efficient (by robot standards) brain, you can't use any of the really high end energy sources, you need to maintain a rather strict degree of hemeostasis, and so on so forth.

Whereas with a robot or hell, a mass of shapeshifting nanites, you can eliminate all the inefficiencies inherent to organic life that make them inferior platforms. You can work within a tolerance range that no organic matter can handle, you don't have to muck about with fickle chemistry or worry about biological agents, no need to muck about with DNA to make new designs, just blue-print out something to efficiently handle whatever job you want it to do and get it rolling out of production or assembled by nanomachines.

tl;dr: Genetic Engineering is so 1980s, the future is in Nanomachines, son.

Keep trying super troll, I find your uninformed musing to be quite entertaining. I would pit an army of microscopic insects against nano machines any day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also who says a brain can't give off/detect electromagnetic signals on its own?

I have a masters in Paleontology and took some courses in Nanotechnology. I know what I'm talking about, and the thing is, a mechanical hegemonizing swarm is going to be vastly larger and more efficient than an organic counterpart.

If I had a faction of robotic tyranid like enemies added to 40k, they'd quite quickly end up outnumbering the Tyranids by a massive margin because there's so much more material for the creation of inorganic devices than there is biomass for living beings.

Even disregarding nanotech, there is two trillion tons of biomass on the Earth, that's a big number right?

Well the Earth is primarily Iron and Nickel by weight when taken as a whole (the 50% oxygen, 25% silicon figure is mostly based on the crust), to the point where there is sextillions of tons of metal on the Earth.

That is literally a billion times more matter to work with.

So what the Tyranids would need to strip an entire galaxy of life to achieve, my robot doomswarm would need only a single planet.

And this doomswarm would keep on growing, and it can devour any planet or space rock, not just those with biomass or chemicals useful for organic life. So it can eat the whole solar system too, and then this swarm keeps on growing, devouring every solid object it finds, and by now dwarfs the Tyranids, Orks, and Humanity combined in terms of numbers.

When it runs into an inhabited planet, it can throw what amounts to the entire Tyranid genus with the most generous possible estimates, at this one single planet, and it would be at best a drop in the bucket of it's total resources.

I keep on going with this berserker von neumann nightmare until the entirety of the galaxy is cleansed of anything but these constantly adapting, geometrically self improving machines that can keep on building smarter and smarter versions of their own A.I to design more and more sophisticated technology.

Even without FTL I could clean the entire galaxy in a few million years, with FTL I'd overwhelm every faction in 40k in perhaps even a few centuries, even Chaos flickers and dies as I completely cleanse the galaxy of all life capable of emotion. Maybe I can even kill everyone sooner depending on how fast I can von neumann my way to victory.

So that's right, a competently designed von neumann swarm I literally just scribbled out a few minutes ago, would break the entire setting through simply outproducing everyone by a ridiculous margin until I can fairly say that I have more capital ships than the Imperium has guardsmen.

As for your nonsense about psychics, we have studied this for decades now, and every reputable source says that psychic powers are complete bunk on every single level. The theory is wrong, the evidence is not there or is outright falsified, Occam's razor and studies have shown that it's mostly down to stage tricks and being really good at groxgakking and cold reading people. If there were some, any mechanism that allowed for organic brains to pull a Yuri and start turning that pandora's box of electrical signals into a two way communicator then science hasn't found one.

And if you want to discuss "well, what if science was wrong" then I'm going to have to cut you short before you start furthering this bio-spank.

You are misinterpreting a great many statements I have made.

First that biomass can outnumber inorganic matter.
Quite to the contrary, I disagree that this is possible, but contend that inorganic matter can become used by biological entities to form new bodies, that is to say it is possible to have microbes that incorporate inorganic matter into their membranes, DNA, and organelles.

I am a biohacker in my free time, currently attempting to, and marginally succeeding in, producing cyanobacteria with more plastids. My goal is to increase the overall efficiency of cyanobacteria in terms of CO2 depletion and O2 production as a way to cheaply and efficiently replace oxygen scrubbers in space craft. If I am successful my cyanobacteria will in a few years allow our astronauts to breathe in space for far longer, and far more safely then they currently do.

Another project I am working on, something more of a pipe dream, is to create an organism that produces a large shell of thick carbon nano tubes. This organism will, if I have my way, replace our spacecraft, producing the entire completed hull of the craft with zero human oversight using CO2 as its primary tool to produce the hull.

I would like to see large organic carbon nano tube lined hydrogen ram jet ships piloting our race into the future.

Secondly about psychic powers;
I am a psychologist and Neurologist currently working towards my doctorate, I am intimately aware that humans or for that matter no other creature exhibits psychic behaviors of any kind. However I am also aware that a great many creatures are able to detect electromagnetic waves we can not (Bats, dogs, etc.), and fields we can not (Birds, and other migratory creatures). It is not unreasonable to say a group of creatures could call each other with their thoughts using radio waves. They could have bones that resonate at the right frequencies allowing them to even change the channels they are tuning into. Listening in to specific voices if you will. I suggest no magic, or immaterial forces at work, only what I know as a scientist.

It is not only possible, but likely that we will find life utilizing just about every form of matter we can conceive of somewhere in the galaxy. Creatures may eat uranium, move using plasma pulses, and see using magnetic fields. Life is a strange thing, and it will always evolve to best suit it's surroundings.

Bio-tech provides a way for us to increase the rate of reproduction, and evolution, to instantly produce anything we could need the moment we need it. We can control the rate of meiosis, the degradation of cells, and even the power output of mitochondria. The options are limitless.

As for your classes in nano tech, every field believes itself the best. I am on team bio and you are are team tech, only time will tell who wins and why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention even the largest nanite swarm can be foiled by a single frequency jammer set to the right frequency band. If they can not communicate the limited processing capabilities of the individual nanites, limited to the movements of at even their most advanced stage, strings, will be unable to complete any task at all, and will become a useless ball of junk.

You guys do realize that you have turned a discussion about which FICTIONAL RACE in a SCIENCE FICTION/FANTASY GAME is the most advanced technologically into an ill-spirited pissing match over who's smarter and who would really win in the REAL WORLD right No need to be so serious. I feel you guys (as said before) are arguing a stalemate.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

This statement shows you have little to no understanding of biology, chemistry, or what bio-tech is capable of. Take some more classes and come back, biology offers endless advancement and boundless possibilities.

Pardon?

No really, pardon?

Did you really just insinuate that you could bioengineer a creature to function as well as any possible machine at the same task?

No, that's dumb.

A biological entity will always be restricted to chemical sources for energy, whereas a machine could very well run off of more intense and efficient in terms of amount of energy from a given amount of matter energy sources such as nuclear reactions for one thing.

Without telepathic hive mind shenanigans, biological organisms can never be as coordinated as an inter-locked network of machines. Pheromones, vocalizations, visual cues, all of these are inferior to the very types of communications used by something as simple as a cell phone.

A hard and fast limitation to the durability of anything organic is the need to get nutrients flowing to whatever organic structure you are developing, this induces structural weaknesses that machines don't have. There's a reason why bones are porous while you can have a slab of composites on a Tank.

So many of the problems that arise with bioengineering versus robotics is that with bioengineering, you ultimately have to make concessions to let the creature live, thus creating weaknesses. You need your organs, you need your metabolization, your overly large and not at all space efficient (by robot standards) brain, you can't use any of the really high end energy sources, you need to maintain a rather strict degree of hemeostasis, and so on so forth.

Whereas with a robot or hell, a mass of shapeshifting nanites, you can eliminate all the inefficiencies inherent to organic life that make them inferior platforms. You can work within a tolerance range that no organic matter can handle, you don't have to muck about with fickle chemistry or worry about biological agents, no need to muck about with DNA to make new designs, just blue-print out something to efficiently handle whatever job you want it to do and get it rolling out of production or assembled by nanomachines.

tl;dr: Genetic Engineering is so 1980s, the future is in Nanomachines, son.

Keep trying super troll, I find your uninformed musing to be quite entertaining. I would pit an army of microscopic insects against nano machines any day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also who says a brain can't give off/detect electromagnetic signals on its own?

I have a masters in Paleontology and took some courses in Nanotechnology. I know what I'm talking about, and the thing is, a mechanical hegemonizing swarm is going to be vastly larger and more efficient than an organic counterpart.

If I had a faction of robotic tyranid like enemies added to 40k, they'd quite quickly end up outnumbering the Tyranids by a massive margin because there's so much more material for the creation of inorganic devices than there is biomass for living beings.

Even disregarding nanotech, there is two trillion tons of biomass on the Earth, that's a big number right?

Well the Earth is primarily Iron and Nickel by weight when taken as a whole (the 50% oxygen, 25% silicon figure is mostly based on the crust), to the point where there is sextillions of tons of metal on the Earth.

That is literally a billion times more matter to work with.

So what the Tyranids would need to strip an entire galaxy of life to achieve, my robot doomswarm would need only a single planet.

And this doomswarm would keep on growing, and it can devour any planet or space rock, not just those with biomass or chemicals useful for organic life. So it can eat the whole solar system too, and then this swarm keeps on growing, devouring every solid object it finds, and by now dwarfs the Tyranids, Orks, and Humanity combined in terms of numbers.

When it runs into an inhabited planet, it can throw what amounts to the entire Tyranid genus with the most generous possible estimates, at this one single planet, and it would be at best a drop in the bucket of it's total resources.

I keep on going with this berserker von neumann nightmare until the entirety of the galaxy is cleansed of anything but these constantly adapting, geometrically self improving machines that can keep on building smarter and smarter versions of their own A.I to design more and more sophisticated technology.

Even without FTL I could clean the entire galaxy in a few million years, with FTL I'd overwhelm every faction in 40k in perhaps even a few centuries, even Chaos flickers and dies as I completely cleanse the galaxy of all life capable of emotion. Maybe I can even kill everyone sooner depending on how fast I can von neumann my way to victory.

So that's right, a competently designed von neumann swarm I literally just scribbled out a few minutes ago, would break the entire setting through simply outproducing everyone by a ridiculous margin until I can fairly say that I have more capital ships than the Imperium has guardsmen.

As for your nonsense about psychics, we have studied this for decades now, and every reputable source says that psychic powers are complete bunk on every single level. The theory is wrong, the evidence is not there or is outright falsified, Occam's razor and studies have shown that it's mostly down to stage tricks and being really good at groxgakking and cold reading people. If there were some, any mechanism that allowed for organic brains to pull a Yuri and start turning that pandora's box of electrical signals into a two way communicator then science hasn't found one.

And if you want to discuss "well, what if science was wrong" then I'm going to have to cut you short before you start furthering this bio-spank.

You are misinterpreting a great many statements I have made.

First that biomass can outnumber inorganic matter.
Quite to the contrary, I disagree that this is possible, but contend that inorganic matter can become used by biological entities to form new bodies, that is to say it is possible to have microbes that incorporate inorganic matter into their membranes, DNA, and organelles.

I am a biohacker in my free time, currently attempting to, and marginally succeeding in, producing cyanobacteria with more plastids. My goal is to increase the overall efficiency of cyanobacteria in terms of CO2 depletion and O2 production as a way to cheaply and efficiently replace oxygen scrubbers in space craft. If I am successful my cyanobacteria will in a few years allow our astronauts to breathe in space for far longer, and far more safely then they currently do.

Another project I am working on, something more of a pipe dream, is to create an organism that produces a large shell of thick carbon nano tubes. This organism will, if I have my way, replace our spacecraft, producing the entire completed hull of the craft with zero human oversight using CO2 as its primary tool to produce the hull.

I would like to see large organic carbon nano tube lined hydrogen ram jet ships piloting our race into the future.

Secondly about psychic powers;
I am a psychologist and Neurologist currently working towards my doctorate, I am intimately aware that humans or for that matter no other creature exhibits psychic behaviors of any kind. However I am also aware that a great many creatures are able to detect electromagnetic waves we can not (Bats, dogs, etc.), and fields we can not (Birds, and other migratory creatures). It is not unreasonable to say a group of creatures could call each other with their thoughts using radio waves. They could have bones that resonate at the right frequencies allowing them to even change the channels they are tuning into. Listening in to specific voices if you will. I suggest no magic, or immaterial forces at work, only what I know as a scientist.

It is not only possible, but likely that we will find life utilizing just about every form of matter we can conceive of somewhere in the galaxy. Creatures may eat uranium, move using plasma pulses, and see using magnetic fields. Life is a strange thing, and it will always evolve to best suit it's surroundings.

Bio-tech provides a way for us to increase the rate of reproduction, and evolution, to instantly produce anything we could need the moment we need it. We can control the rate of meiosis, the degradation of cells, and even the power output of mitochondria. The options are limitless.

As for your classes in nano tech, every field believes itself the best. I am on team bio and you are are team tech, only time will tell who wins and why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention even the largest nanite swarm can be foiled by a single frequency jammer set to the right frequency band. If they can not communicate the limited processing capabilities of the individual nanites, limited to the movements of at even their most advanced stage, strings, will be unable to complete any task at all, and will become a useless ball of junk.

You guys do realize that you have turned a discussion about which FICTIONAL RACE in a SCIENCE FICTION/FANTASY GAME is the most advanced technologically into an ill-spirited pissing match over who's smarter and who would really win in the REAL WORLD right No need to be so serious. I feel you guys (as said before) are arguing a stalemate.

I realized that immediately, but hey it was fun, and I had nothing better to do.

 Happyjew wrote:
I voted Orks. As to why, in the words of Uthan the Perverse, Eldar Philosopher

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

This.

... the problem is, the poll doesn't let you vote for Orks, it makes you vote for Orcs, who are Faction Not-Appearing-In-This-Game.

1) Tyranids. If you can see past the gribblies, the Tyranids are what stands for a highly advanced civilization in most recent science fiction - A post-scarcity society of self-replicating machines led by a transcended consciousness, all gone terribly wrong. A grim reminder that you can't have an "unlimited offer" post-scarcity economy if you don't keep an eye on the ever expanding demand.

2) Necrons/Eldar. I see these two as roughly on par, perhaps with Necrons lagging slightly behind in some areas. Where Necrons have Living Metal, Eldar have Wraithbone. The Eldar have the Webway and a high degree of understanding of Warp phenomena, Necrons have mastered stasis and time manipulation. Necrons have biotransference, Eldar have infinity circuits and soulstones. That's where Necrons probably falter - biotransference was granted to them by the C'tan and, by the 41st millenium, they don't seem to remember much of it.

3) The Imperium of Man. A corporate nationalist theocratic monarchy desperately clinging to the remains of what other, more progressive human societies left behind. Still, the Imperium is not short on the tech department - many of their toys would make the United Federation of Planets cry in envy: Megascale manufacturing, life extension, AI, transhuman biology, miniaturization, knowledge of "exotic" phenomena... Sure, the Imperium no longer performs research, and social, political and economic concerns keep that tech from being evenly distributed, but the Imperium is still one of the major technological powers in the Galaxy.

4) Tau: The Tau have advanced technology, that's for sure. Advanced for our frame of reference but, in the 40k universe, most factions are capable of performing technological feats that are undistinguishable from magic.

Practical example: Tyranids are a collective sentience that dwells in a parallel dimension. Necrons and Eldar keep the souls of their dead stored in quasi-supernatural devices. The Imperium has knowledge of clinical immortality. The Tau can only store certain thought-patterns or engrams of a deceased person that more or less ensure that the recipient of this engramatic implant would think like the individual they were copied from. This is incredibly advanced for us. For the 40k races, it's almost crude.

?) Orks: They don't exactly care about technology. For Orks, technology is just means to an end. If that end requires energy weapons and giant walking constructs, their innate engineering capabilities will provide. If it requires spears and stones, they'll happily go with that.

When talking about tech I have been wondering if the IOM has been moving away from science based tech to psychic based tech like the Eldar have. I know that the IOM has no psychic based tech, but because humanity has been evolving into a psychic race like the Eldar (by this I mean every individual is a psyker) if given enough time and if they survive the civil war with the tech priests and the rest of the galaxy that the technology that humanity would come to use would be psych based like the Eldar. Food for thought.

Back on topic I would say Necrons and Eldar.

It's clearly Necrons, followed ages behind by the Tao. The Necrons were the most advanced race trillions of years before any other race exsisted and they still rule. The only reason they havn't already decimated the universe is because they lack the ability to use the warp and they lost their leader.

The answer can only be determined by comparing fluff, and given that the Necron's 5th edition retcon was performed by none other than Matt Ward himself, we can clearly state the Necrons are the pinnacle of existence, as decreed so, by their spiritual liege, Roboute Guilliman.



The Tau only appear so advanced because they are relatively unadvanced for the setting; we can recognize their technology for what it is. Keep in mind that they are based on a mix of feudal and late 1980's Japan, as seem by a Westerner.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I voted Orks. As to why, in the words of Uthan the Perverse, Eldar Philosopher

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

This.

This... is stupid O.o

The only reason humans have made it so far is because we question everything (aside from that hiccup called 'religion' but we're getting over that sickness little by little). A culture such as the orks would have been wiped out before they left their own planet if not for their innate strength, resilience and ease of breading. Orks are a triumph of evolution not technology or culture or art or anything else that we see as important. All Orks can do is kill, reproduce and survive.

Nevzara wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I voted Orks. As to why, in the words of Uthan the Perverse, Eldar Philosopher

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

This.

This... is stupid O.o

The only reason humans have made it so far is because we question everything (aside from that hiccup called 'religion' but we're getting over that sickness little by little). A culture such as the orks would have been wiped out before they left their own planet if not for their innate strength, resilience and ease of breading. Orks are a triumph of evolution not technology or culture or art or anything else that we see as important. All Orks can do is kill, reproduce and survive.

As an atheist myself, I find your describing of religion as a sickness to be offensive and despicable and you ought to be ashamed.

In any case, the Old Ones tailored Ork culture and biology to feed off of one another to create the ultimate survivor species in their war against the Necrons. They still failed at protecting the Old Ones, but Orkoids have become the most successful group in the galaxy actually native to the galaxy by far.

I think we're better off leaving the religious discussion/slating for another time and place.

Thanks.

 reds8n wrote:
I think we're better off leaving the religious discussion/slating for another time and place.

Thanks.

Fair enough, I apologize for my comments.

Most advanced race? Tyranids.

Necrons duh, according to their new fluff they basically do everything and can do it better than anyone else. Time travel, doomsday weapons, immortal bodies...the only reason they dont own everything is because most of them are sleeping.

Break down of species characteristics, in no particular order:

Necrons: 24

Highly advanced destructive capabilities and mastery over time itself. Implied high power production as a result of the need to have infinity plus one power to overcome relativity. No sign or explanation as to how they over came this power supply need other than magic. Destructive capabilities reveal an affinity for destruction that outclasses any other race, however the ability goes unexplained and stands beyond any form of physics, explanation for this power as well must be declared as magic.

Over all I would rate them:
Culture: 3
Transportation: 4 (Mastery of FTL and time make long distance travel easy, and can use pocket dimensions)
Power Creation: 5? (They must have something amazing to power their equipment, but nothing particular is mentioned)
Weapons: 5 (Can blow up stars with magic)
Evolution: 1 (They are stagnant and have opted out of the evolutionary process)
Reproduction Rate: 2 (can produce blank slate soldiers)
Item Creation: 4? (They have advanced metals, but must create their items through industrial like processes)

Eldar: 25

With easily the most advanced transportation tech in the game the Web Way, they can control when and where they fight. They have overcome death with wraith tech, and have regularly created whole worlds. The amount of power generation necessary to create a planet is insane, wither they are simply patient, or this is a relatively quick process. If it is quick, this is amazing, and their power tech must at least be at the level of a type two civilization. Their weapons tech is not as powerful as other races though, making them an easy target for conquest.

Over all:
Culture: 4 (Advanced art and social structure has completely overcome biology)
Transportation: 5 (Web Way.)
Power Creation: 4 (Needed to create planets)
Weapons: 3 (Lances are great, but not overly powerful)
Evolution: 2 (Long lives restrict evolutionary advancement)
Reproduction Rate: 2
Item Creation: 5 (Can will items into existence)

Tau: 23

Tau live short lives and thus evolve much faster than other races. This is evident in their technological advancement as their tech has and does quickly overcome any situation. They also appear to have a tactical brilliance bordering on super human. They have regularly outclassed other, more advanced races militarily with nothing, but tactics. Power production is at least on the level of a type one civilization as they have planet wide geothermal nets, however their transportation and weapons tech is in many ways less advanced than are those of other races.However their rail gun tech has made their fleet a force to be reckoned with and can easily and instantly cause a supernova.

Over all:
Culture: 4 (They have not only overcome biology, but have a thriving scientific and artistic sub class. Their diplomatic skills are second to not other race.)
Transportation: 2 (They only have basic FTL)
Power Creation: 3 (Geothermal Nets)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Rail guns and missiles baring artificial intelligence)
Evolution: 4 (They evolve much faster than other races.)
Reproduction Rate: 3
Item Creation: 3 (Advanced materials, but require artisans to produce them)

Humanity: 23

Humanity is stagnant technologically, but still horribly advanced. Their tech includes warp transportation, extermination engines, and vast cities in space. They dwarf many races in power. Their super soldiers are barely beyond rudimentary tech, but they are extremely impressive despite this. Their culture is vibrant, but close minded, and xenophobic, it seems to be designed to preserve the statuesque.

Over all:
Culture: 3 (Advanced and vibrant, but close minded and stagnant)
Transportation: 4 (Warp drive)
Power Creation: 3 (Terra is at least type one)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Titans and extermination engines)
Evolution: 3 (Rather standard life spanes and reproduction rates)
Reproduction Rate: 3
Item Creation: 3 (Advanced metals, but require an expansive industrial infrastructure)

Tyranids: 24

The commander of multiple galaxies and a master of genetic manipulation the hive mind rains supreme as the single most powerful being in the universe thus far. Nothing is said about their power supply or capability, so we will assume that this massively impressive feat was achieved by a type zero civilization. The hive mind does however control both the rate of evolution and reproduction of its many bodies, and can manipulate them to meet any need.

Overall:
Culture: 1 (The Hive Mind is a single entity and thus is stagnant culturally)
Transportation: 4 (It has the ability to travel between galaxies though there is no true explanation as to how.)
Power Creation: 2 (The Hive is type zero, but its ability to translate biomass into usable energy is second to none.)
Weapons Tech: 3 (Can instantly evolve the perfect weapon for any engagement)
Evolution: 5 (Controls its own rate of evolution)
Reproduction Rate: 5 (At will)
Item Creation: 4 (Advanced materials created at will, but require spawn pools)

Orks: 17

Impressively numerous and determined to win any and all wars, orks are the perfect weapon. They have shown limited diplomatic skills, and a deep social structure, but for the most part "Da biggest is da boss." Their ability to travel is impressive, but the randomness of it must be taken into consideration.

Overall:
Culture: 3
Transportation: 2 (Warp travel, but random)
Power Creation: 1 (They are the type zeroest of the type zeros)
Weapons Tech: 3 (Their own fists represent some of the most powerful weapons in the galaxy.)
Evolution: 1 (They have never evolved, and don't care to even think about it.)
Reproduction Rate: 5
Item Creation: 2 (Inferior materials, only assembled by the engineer cast)

The funniest thing about this post is the Ork players here. If the ork players were to actually just believe they had the best of anything they would have the best. Their power is only limited by their thought process. If enough orks believed that the sky was pink it would turn pink. There is no power stronger than that of the power of the ork hordes. To even suggest another group is equivalent to them is insane. I'm just so glad just like the ork players and the ork horde has not yet decided to believe in their ultimate power. Ork weaponry does not work. It's the orks belief in their weaponry that makes it work. They are the only race that is limited purely by their imagination. Every other race has to overcome technology. Orks just have to believe in theirs.

Conclusion:

1st: Eldar
2nd: Tau/Tyranids
3rd: Humanity
4th: Necrons
5th: Orks

That sort of rating system is terrible IMO.

You're more than welcome to create your own, I would love to see what you come up with. I was surprised at my result. I firmly believe the Necrons are more advanced than the Eldar, and the Tyranids are more advanced than both. But my results were different.

Necrons, by far.



However, Dark Age of Technology humans weren't too shabby either, apparently.

Also, I believe you might be mistaken with your analysis on the necrons.

For transport, Necrons can travel via pocket dimensions and space time manipulation (Deathmarks / Veil of Darkness) and they can hack into the webway via Dolmen Gates (not too shabby for a non psychic race). They can also form small wormholes in their vehicles to instantly bring in reinforcements from their tomb worlds.

Culturally, the necrons have a rigid hierarchy, and whilst the Warrior variant is certainly mindless, the more advanced forms (deathmarks, Praetorians, Crypteks, etc) certainly have a distinct intelligence, and are NOT insane.
Trazyn and the Stormlord are not crazy. Trazyn might be on the eccentric side, but he is nothing like Kulkath (or whatever his name is) or Zandrekh.

Reproduction...theoretically, they can just copy a conscientious and put it in another body, since they are machines. We haven't seen anything like that, so we don't know. They certainly are not able to reproduce the conventional way, however.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Break down of species characteristics, in no particular order:

Necrons: 21

Highly advanced destructive capabilities and mastery over time itself. Implied high power production as a result of the need to have infinity plus one power to overcome relativity. No sign or explanation as to how they over came this power supply need other than magic. Destructive capabilities reveal an affinity for destruction that outclasses any other race, however the ability goes unexplained and stands beyond any form of physics, explanation for this power as well must be declared as magic.

Over all I would rate them:
Culture: 2 (Most of them are nothing but blank slates, the few who are not are insane)
Transportation: 3 (Mastery of FTL and time make long distance travel easy)
Power Creation: 5? (They must have something amazing to power their equipment, but nothing particular is mentioned)
Weapons: 5 (Can blow up stars with magic)
Evolution: 1 (They are stagnant and have opted out of the evolutionary process)
Reproduction Rate: 1
Item Creation: 4? (They have advanced metals, but must create their items through industrial like processes)

Eldar: 25

With easily the most advanced transportation tech in the game the Web Way, they can control when and where they fight. They have overcome death with wraith tech, and have regularly created whole worlds. The amount of power generation necessary to create a planet is insane, wither they are simply patient, or this is a relatively quick process. If it is quick, this is amazing, and their power tech must at least be at the level of a type two civilization. Their weapons tech is not as powerful as other races though, making them an easy target for conquest.

Over all:
Culture: 4 (Advanced art and social structure has completely overcome biology)
Transportation: 5 (Web Way.)
Power Creation: 4 (Needed to create planets)
Weapons: 3 (Lances are great, but not overly powerful)
Evolution: 2 (Long lives restrict evolutionary advancement)
Reproduction Rate: 2
Item Creation: 5 (Can will items into existence)

Tau: 24

Tau live short lives and thus evolve much faster than other races. This is evident in their technological advancement as their tech has and does quickly overcome any situation. They also appear to have a tactical brilliance bordering on super human. They have regularly outclassed other, more advanced races militarily with nothing, but tactics. Power production is at least on the level of a type one civilization as they have planet wide geothermal nets, however their transportation and weapons tech is in many ways less advanced than are those of other races.However their rail gun tech has made their fleet a force to be reckoned with and can easily and instantly cause a supernova.

Over all:
Culture: 5 (They have not only overcome biology, but have a thriving scientific and artistic sub class. Their diplomatic skills are second to not other race.)
Transportation: 2 (They only have basic FTL)
Power Creation: 3 (Geothermal Nets)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Rail guns and missiles baring artificial intelligence)
Evolution: 4 (They evolve much faster than other races.)
Reproduction Rate: 3
Item Creation: 3 (Advanced materials, but require artisans to produce them)

Humanity: 23

Humanity is stagnant technologically, but still horribly advanced. Their tech includes warp transportation, extermination engines, and vast cities in space. They dwarf many races in power. Their super soldiers are barely beyond rudimentary tech, but they are extremely impressive despite this. Their culture is vibrant, but close minded, and xenophobic, it seems to be designed to preserve the statuesque.

Over all:
Culture: 3 (Advanced and vibrant, but close minded and stagnant)
Transportation: 4 (Warp drive)
Power Creation: 3 (Terra is at least type one)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Titans and extermination engines)
Evolution: 3 (Rather standard life spanes and reproduction rates)
Reproduction Rate: 3
Item Creation: 3 (Advanced metals, but require an expansive industrial infrastructure)

Tyranids: 24

The commander of multiple galaxies and a master of genetic manipulation the hive mind rains supreme as the single most powerful being in the universe thus far. Nothing is said about their power supply or capability, so we will assume that this massively impressive feat was achieved by a type zero civilization. The hive mind does however control both the rate of evolution and reproduction of its many bodies, and can manipulate them to meet any need.

Overall:
Culture: 1 (The Hive Mind is a single entity and thus is stagnant culturally)
Transportation: 4 (It has the ability to travel between galaxies though there is no true explanation as to how.)
Power Creation: 2 (The Hive is type zero, but its ability to translate biomass into usable energy is second to none.)
Weapons Tech: 3 (Can instantly evolve the perfect weapon for any engagement)
Evolution: 5 (Controls its own rate of evolution)
Reproduction Rate: 5 (At will)
Item Creation: 4 (Advanced materials created at will, but require spawn pools)

Orks: 17

Impressively numerous and determined to win any and all wars, orks are the perfect weapon. They have shown limited diplomatic skills, and a deep social structure, but for the most part "Da biggest is da boss." Their ability to travel is impressive, but the randomness of it must be taken into consideration.

Overall:
Culture: 3
Transportation: 2 (Warp travel, but random)
Power Creation: 1 (They are the type zeroest of the type zeros)
Weapons Tech: 3 (Their own fists represent some of the most powerful weapons in the galaxy.)
Evolution: 1 (They have never evolved, and don't care to even think about it.)
Reproduction Rate: 5
Item Creation: 2 (Inferior materials, only assembled by the engineer cast)

I like the set up you have here on rating the races there are a few things that I disagree with though.
Eldar I would say get a five on their weapons for they have do have titans and I'm sure that they do have weapons that can exterminate a planet. I mean these guys have fought the Necrons for a long time I'm pretty sure that they have to have some serious fire power.

Tau I would put culture at a four due to the fact that the are split into five different groups that are not allowed to interbreed at all or go from one caste to another caste. Also if one of your castes by some really bad luck gets completely wiped out you have no one with the ability to come in and do that job and your society quickly falls apart. I would also put their evolution at a three because of the warp storm that engulfed their region of space for 6000years (as far as I know this fluff is still good and has not been discounted and it is in the old Tau codex) So their evolution which appears to be advancing at an alarming rate might not in fact be advancing beyond the average rate do to this storm which could have caused time for the Tau to speed up possibly by 1000s of years.


Humanity I would give a four on reproduction rate as there are just so freaking many of them. They have come to war zones out numbering the Orks.

Orks I would give a four and be pushing for a five on their culture due to the fact that Orks always know who is in charge, their economy is always stable, and their society is entirely self-sufficient. Yeah their is no real growth in anything other than warfare, but hey do you really need it when your society doesn't suffer from any of the other problems that every other race struggles with.

Actually, no. Eldar Weapons tech is advanced, but much like the Old Ones, not as advanced as the Necrons. However, what does give them an advantage is their mobility; Eldar can react and move much faster than Necrons, allowing them to quickly flank and apply pressure when needed.

Necrons also have Titans and Large Scale SHV by the way; we just haven't seen them yet. We've only seen a small portion of their armory.

Ah true forgot about that with the Necrons.

 Toburk wrote:
The answer can only be determined by comparing fluff, and given that the Necron's 5th edition retcon was performed by none other than Matt Ward himself, we can clearly state the Necrons are the pinnacle of existence, as decreed so, by their spiritual liege, Roboute Guilliman.

But still they cry, for they know that they can never be ULTRAMARINES!



Also, the Orks are clearly the most advanced. No other race has yet succeeded in creating a absolutely perfect society for their race. (altough one could argue that they were created as such by the Old Ones and didn't do anything themselves)
1. Orks (Their society is perfect (for Orks at least ) and their technology is very adaptable and can be created from scratch.)
2. Necrons (Their society is lacking on a number of points, but their technology borders on magic)
3. Eldar (Extremely advanced technology and their society functions really well, they are on 3 due to the Fall)
4. Humans (Highly advanced technology, their society is flawed and far from perfect but it does not have any real weaknesses. Their dogmatic religion keeps them from advancing, but it also allows them to survive. Their major flaw is that they do no longer understand much of their own technology.)
5. Tau (Their technology is less complicated and not as advanced as those of other races (they even lack FTL travel) but they have a lot of potential for advancing. Their society functions well, but the caste system and reliance on the Ethereals are major weaknesses)
6. Tyranids (They are hard to rate at all since they lack a higher form of consciousness and rely on their instincts. They are closer to animals than sentient creatures and do not use tools. Their reliance on the Hive Mind for higher thinking is also a major weakness.)

Chaos is not rateable since the Warp defies the 'normal' laws of the 40k universe.

This has been an interesting read. I started only skimming at the point that it got a little snippy so forgive me if my points below have been covered, but here's my thoughts:

So efficiency of power plants and total power output is meaningless.
Size of empire is meaningless.
Art and culture are meaningless.
And diplomatic skill and social structure are meaningless.
Adaptability and ingenuity are meaningless.

What seems to matter to war gamers:
Weapon Tech.
Transportation Tech.

You seem to take issue with gamers rating transportation so highly. The thing is though, when you're talking about interstellar societies, transportation is the number one thing that will enable or hamper all of the other things you listed. It doesn't even have to be about combat either. In a universe where races can almost instantly be anywhere at any time, if you're just plugging along at only "near light speed" you are at a serious disadvantage. Everywhere you go someone else will already be there. You will be forever playing catchup. When you consider all of the other factors you list, I would still rate the Tau highly, but certainly not a tie for number two based solely on their lack of FTL travel.

This is also one of the reasons I would say 'Nids can't be number two either. Part of the reason most of the Hive fleets ahve struggled is because of the fact that you know you have a good while before a sizeable 'Nid force gets anywhere and they aren't going to stop/turn on a dime the way a society with FTL/Webway/Warp travel could. Additionally, to your argument about efficiency of powerplants - the 'Nids are actually remarkably inneficient IMO. They need to consume entire star systems to fuel themselves. Again, one of the reasons some of the Hive Fleets have struggled is because they were nearly out of bio-fuel and had to fight strong resistance befoer they were ready. They are in fact incapable of generating their own power the way the other races can. They are actually parasitic and playing a zero sum game. Once the bio-mass in one area is consumed, they HAVE to move on or they will starve to death. They cannot tap into the warp or use any other kind of power/energy. Extrappalating that out, if what we have in the universe now are just 'Nid scouting fleets and the "tiny" scouting fleets need that much fuel, could our universe even contain enough fuel to sustain the main 'Nid fleet? Doubt it.


For my votes - I would say in terms of "society" - ORKs all the way for reasons already mentioned. What hey have just works.
In terms of hard tech, I have to give that to the Necrons.

My previous post is updated:

1st: Eldar
2nd: Necrons/Tyranids
3rd: Humanity/Tau
4th: Orks

My previous post is updated:

1st: Eldar
2nd: Necrons/Tyranids
3rd: Humanity/Tau
4th: Orks

I can definitley see arguments for the Eldar being number one and the 'Crons being number two. I'd personally probably rate Tau/Humanity as #4, with Orks as #3. Humanity has a lot of cool tech but they can't really fix a lot of it properly and they are in a stage of deline to where they can't really even invent things anymore. They have to rely on stumbling across old drawings in order to do something new. On the other hand, like I said, they have some crazy strong tech and FTL so I can still see them being ranked. Tau probably are a little more advanced (than humanity) in a lot of ways but again, lack of proper FTL hampers them so being tied with humanity makes sense to me.

The 'Nids I just can't get with. A mark of intelligence isn't just adaptation, but also anticipation. The ability to predict what may come and be prepared for it. While the nids are great at rapidly evolving responses to things that hurt them ... they have yet to show an ability to anticipate an enemy and develop a pre-emptive response to a threat. They are only reacting. IMO this places them only slightly higher on the chain than an ant colony. Larger, more dangerous? Yes. More advanced? Not really no. Also, again, by some of the requirements you;ve listed, the nids fail. They don't produce anything. They just consume. Once what they'vre consumed is gone - so are they. There is no true innovation. They are just parasites.

Who's the greenest? Seems pretty straight forward to me *shrug*

Eldar. Obviously. They commanded Black holes to do their bidding like a race of Time Lords and they told the cosmos what to do.

Beat THAT.

The hive mind uses Genestealers as shock troops to infiltrate and weaken technologicaly advanced races... They learn the ways of these cultures so thoroughly they fool them into letting them into positions of power... Does this not count as forethought and planning?

Not counting Warp skills:

Necrons 1
Eldar 2
Nids
Tau
Imperium
Orks

Remember that:
-Eldar beat the Necrons in the War in Heaven, but relied heavily on Psykers, then basically did whatever they wanted up until about 30k.
-The reason you see so few D weapons on Eldar military units is because the tech hurts the Materium itself. Only Iyanden uses them regularly
- The reason we see weapons like Shuriken Catapults is because CW Eldar have no industrial capacity to speak of. Those are really just sidearms, not true field weapons.

Eldar weapons tech dwarfs anything the IoM has, although its still behind Necrons.

Eldar. Obviously. They commanded Black holes to do their bidding like a race of Time Lords and they told the cosmos what to do.

Beat THAT.

Yeah, I mean that's cool and all ... but what have have you done for me lately? lol/jk

The hive mind uses Genestealers as shock troops to infiltrate and weaken technologicaly advanced races... They learn the ways of these cultures so thoroughly they fool them into letting them into positions of power... Does this not count as forethought and planning?

That's not really a focused thing though. The stealers are strewn all over the place and some infestations may or may not ever even have a use. Plus, again, they are using the same tactic over and over again. That's the very reason why we know how the Genestealer cults work. Because they don't change their tactics in advance of a potential threat. IMO the Genestealers are to the Tyranids what Saliva is to the human digestive system. IE - just a way to help soften up your food and keep it moving. I would actually argue that at this point reliance on the stealers almost potentially hampers them. I mean without the cults to act as beacons for "ready" worlds what do the Hivefleets even do (besides endlessly circle the Astronomicon lol). All you have to do is ping that signal and you can lead a hive fleet around like a dog on a leash.

The 'Nids aren't really even fighting if you think about it.They aren't bulding a society/empire and they aren't really even actively trying to destroy one ... they're just ... hungry. That's it.
You actually mentioned earlier that you wouldn't rate the Orks as high because "they give no thought to evolution". I would argue that this is, in a way applicable to the Nids as well. They only give "thought" to evolving when they are being killed. Unlike many of the other races, they don't actively seek to better themselves unless they are faced with a dire threat. The Orks in fact DO evolve and innovate new tech just to do it. I woudl argue that the 'Nids ability to "evolve" is being over-stated.

To put it another way - Let's say you have two fighters in a ring. Fighter A and fighter B. Fighter A is relentlessy hammering fighter B. But every fourth or fifth shot fighter B figures out how to block that one specific punch. So fighter A just changes to a new punch and the cycle sarts over. You wouldn't be watching that and saying "Wow look at fighter B evolve his defenses!" You would be saying "Wow! Fighter B is getting destroyed!".

 Jancoran wrote:
Eldar. Obviously. They commanded Black holes to do their bidding like a race of Time Lords and they told the cosmos what to do.

Beat THAT.

Necrons can remotely make any star go super nova with the press of a button AND can form black holes. If you are the master of time and space, making black holes is child's play.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Eldar. Obviously. They commanded Black holes to do their bidding like a race of Time Lords and they told the cosmos what to do.

Beat THAT.

Necrons can remotely make any star go super nova with the press of a button AND can form black holes. If you are the master of time and space, making black holes is child's play.

Tau can make suns supernova. Admittedly it was an accident at first, but they are working on sunkiller weapons .

I voted Eldar from the point of view they have mastered virtually all forms of weaponry, laser, flame, solid state, warp driven, projectile, blast etc etc.
Few other races have mastered all available weapon types to the level that the Eldar have with very few technological drawbacks (no misfires, jams, gets hot etc).
In addition Wraithbone is a really crazy material if you think about it.

I take your point Oz but this is a wargaming site focused on tabletop battles where faction military technology is key and ultimately paramount.

it counts as murder! MURDERERS!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Necrons can remotely make any star go super nova with the press of a button AND can form black holes. If you are the master of time and space, making black holes is child's play.

My Grandma can do that. Eldar can make the sun UN-supernova and time travel themselves back to before it happened and then break the button.

...and time travel themselves back to before it happened and then break the button.

If that part were really true, they'd have undone the birth of Slaanesh by now. On the other hand, at one point they rocked so hard they actually gave birth to Slaanesh so .... yeah. Eldar are still on top (and also, somewhat ironically, they are the most "metal").

Tycho wrote:

Eldar. Obviously. They commanded Black holes to do their bidding like a race of Time Lords and they told the cosmos what to do.

Beat THAT.

Yeah, I mean that's cool and all ... but what have have you done for me lately? lol/jk

The hive mind uses Genestealers as shock troops to infiltrate and weaken technologicaly advanced races... They learn the ways of these cultures so thoroughly they fool them into letting them into positions of power... Does this not count as forethought and planning?

That's not really a focused thing though. The stealers are strewn all over the place and some infestations may or may not ever even have a use. Plus, again, they are using the same tactic over and over again. That's the very reason why we know how the Genestealer cults work. Because they don't change their tactics in advance of a potential threat. IMO the Genestealers are to the Tyranids what Saliva is to the human digestive system. IE - just a way to help soften up your food and keep it moving. I would actually argue that at this point reliance on the stealers almost potentially hampers them. I mean without the cults to act as beacons for "ready" worlds what do the Hivefleets even do (besides endlessly circle the Astronoimicon lol). All you have to do is ping that signal and you can lead a hive fleet around like a dog on a leash.

The 'Nids aren't really even fighting if you think about it.They aren't bulding a society/empire and they aren't really even actively trying to destroy one ... they're just ... hungry. That's it.

The actions of all biological creatures can be explained through analogies to single cell organisms, the question is how do you know there positions are random? How do you know this isn't an elaborate plan? Have you talked to the Hive Mind recently?

Space Marines are still used by humanity, they resemble white blood cells and their actions seem to be nothing more than reactions to external threats to the larger human populace. They have not changed for 10000 years because they work, and they are still used only for that reason.

See what I mean? You can not argue consciousness or intelligence in that way, trust me I tried and was shot down by many a pbilosophy/psychology professor. And who is to say that consciousness is necessarily advanced?

 Jancoran wrote:
it counts as murder! MURDERERS!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Necrons can remotely make any star go super nova with the press of a button AND can form black holes. If you are the master of time and space, making black holes is child's play.

My Grandma can do that. Eldar can make the sun UN-supernova and time travel themselves back to before it happened and then break the button.

The Necrons can do that to every single star in the galaxy, possibly the universe depending on how you interpret the Celestial orrery.

Also, Orikan has mastered cheap and easy Time Travel to the point of essentially riding around in his own TARDIS.

Tycho wrote:

Eldar. Obviously. They commanded Black holes to do their bidding like a race of Time Lords and they told the cosmos what to do.

Beat THAT.

Yeah, I mean that's cool and all ... but what have have you done for me lately? lol/jk

The hive mind uses Genestealers as shock troops to infiltrate and weaken technologicaly advanced races... They learn the ways of these cultures so thoroughly they fool them into letting them into positions of power... Does this not count as forethought and planning?

That's not really a focused thing though. The stealers are strewn all over the place and some infestations may or may not ever even have a use. Plus, again, they are using the same tactic over and over again. That's the very reason why we know how the Genestealer cults work. Because they don't change their tactics in advance of a potential threat. IMO the Genestealers are to the Tyranids what Saliva is to the human digestive system. IE - just a way to help soften up your food and keep it moving. I would actually argue that at this point reliance on the stealers almost potentially hampers them. I mean without the cults to act as beacons for "ready" worlds what do the Hivefleets even do (besides endlessly circle the Astronomicon lol). All you have to do is ping that signal and you can lead a hive fleet around like a dog on a leash.

The 'Nids aren't really even fighting if you think about it.They aren't bulding a society/empire and they aren't really even actively trying to destroy one ... they're just ... hungry. That's it.
You actually mentioned earlier that you wouldn't rate the Orks as high because "they give no thought to evolution". I would argue that this is, in a way applicable to the Nids as well. They only give "thought" to evolving when they are being killed. Unlike many of the other races, they don't actively seek to better themselves unless they are faced with a dire threat. The Orks in fact DO evolve and innovate new tech just to do it. I woudl argue that the 'Nids ability to "evolve" is being over-stated.

To put it another way - Let's say you have two fighters in a ring. Fighter A and fighter B. Fighter A is relentlessy hammering fighter B. But every fourth or fifth shot fighter B figures out how to block that one specific punch. So fighter A just changes to a new punch and the cycle sarts over. You wouldn't be watching that and saying "Wow look at fighter B evolve his defenses!" You would be saying "Wow! Fighter B is getting destroyed!".

It's hard to place motives on the Tyranids partly because a lot of what we have of the Tyranids aren't written from the Tyranid's perspective, they're written from the perspective of people being attacked by them. The description of the swarmlord hints at Tyranids potentially having great intelligence and the individual beasts even being able to be autonomous to some degree. The motives and intelligence of the Tyranids is still unknown.

Tyranids being "advanced" isn't just about their motives and intelligence though, it's that they are all linked through the hive mind, they all have their purpose from bugs that devour for energy consumption to bugs like the Swarmlord who is spawned to out think an enemy general, learn from the experience and be reabsorbed ready to do it all again somewhere else.

A greater non-reactionary intelligence that you talk about would be possessed by the more rare "brain bugs" that aren't talked about as often.

I love this thread.

The actions of all biological creatures can be explained through analogies to single cell organisms, the question is how do you know there positions are random? How do you know this isn't an elaborate plan? Have you talked to the Hive Mind recently?

Space Marines are still used by humanity, they resemble white blood cells and their actions seem to be nothing more than reactions to external threats to the larger human populace. They have not changed for 10000 years because they work, and they are still used only for that reason.

See what I mean? You can not argue consciousness or intelligence in that way, trust me I tried and was shot down by many a pbilosophy/psychology professor. And who is to say that consciousness is necessarily advanced?

I'm a Lewis Carol fan and he disagrees with you on that point but we could go back and forth all day on it. Plus, (and I may be misunderstanding you here so apologies if that's the case) I'm not sure i tried to argue consciousness or intelligence in the way you're implying.

Also, on the Marines - in fact they have changed and continue to do so. The progress in most cases is stupid slow (like most things in the Imperium) but they at least actively seek to better themselves rather than to seek a status quo until forced to change. To me that's a trait I look for in an "advanced" society.

But again, if you want to, let's throw that argument out. You still have what basically amounts to somehting that has no FTL, cannot create it's own energy source, only evolves as a response to being killed, operates as an entire race on a zero-sum game of existance, and completely lacks some of the things you listed (such as diplomats for example). IMO you still can't place them as number two.

I love this thread.

Yes. One of my favorites in a while. lol

This thread has taught me that some people take this game WAY to seriously.

**passes Murdius Maximus some popcorn.**

Shut up. Just watch.

 Jancoran wrote:
**passes Murdius Maximus some popcorn.**

Shut up. Just watch.

Hey! Quit hogging the popcorn. We're only on page 4, it's just about tot get good.

Tycho wrote:


I'm a Lewis Carol fan and he disagrees with you on that point but we could go back and forth all day on it. Plus, (and I may be misunderstanding you here so apologies if that's the case) I'm not sure i tried to argue consciousness or intelligence in the way you're implying.

Also, on the Marines - in fact they have changed and continue to do so. The progress in most cases is stupid slow (like most things in the Imperium) but they at least actively seek to better themselves rather than to seek a status quo until forced to change. To me that's a trait I look for in an "advanced" society.

But again, if you want to, let's throw that argument out. You still have what basically amounts to somehting that has no FTL, cannot create it's own energy source, only evolves as a response to being killed, operates as an entire race on a zero-sum game of existance, and completely lacks some of the things you listed (such as diplomats for example). IMO you still can't place them as number two.

Some marines change, others stay the same. The Ultra Marines strict adherence to the Codex can be seen as a lack of any desire to change.

Genestealers develop complex strategies to deal with the societies they infiltrate.
Swarmloards are brilliant tactical geniuses that take in the strategies of opposing armies and apply that knowledge to further engagements.
Hive fleets evolve in the ways that Swarmloards/Brain bugs want them to, not just in response to death. They do however often use their own troops to learn about enemy responses.

If they have no FTL then they spend millions if not billions of years in the void between galaxies. If that is so, they must have a means of power production like photosynthesis at the very least, or they would all be dead after they first left a galaxy. We can't even fathom how this extra galactic species even functions, let alone survives.

This thread has taught me that some people take this game WAY to seriously.

Take the game seriously? Nope. Sure I wish the fluff made more sense, or that the company hired someone with basic writing skill or scientific knowledge to write their fluff, but hey we don't always get what we want. I just find hypothetical discussion to be an interesting way to see how people react. This has been quite fun and stimulating so far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Lewis Carroll, or Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, which is his real name, was a mathematician that rejected algebra as poppycock stating that integers were the stuff of children's stories. He is not a source of great logical or philosophical thinking, and a not a reliable source of input to either discipline.

I don't think the Necrons are really all that advanced, their technological abilities are not their own, simply what the C'Tan did to them. So my vote goes to Eldar, based on their weapons technology, their Craftworlds, and their psychic technology. I mean come on, they capture souls and turn them into giant death robots.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually, no. Eldar Weapons tech is advanced, but much like the Old Ones, not as advanced as the Necrons. However, what does give them an advantage is their mobility; Eldar can react and move much faster than Necrons, allowing them to quickly flank and apply pressure when needed.

Necrons also have Titans and Large Scale SHV by the way; we just haven't seen them yet. We've only seen a small portion of their armory.

One activated Eldar Blackstone fortress wiped out an eldar fleet off Cadia no?

If they have no FTL then they spend millions if not billions of years in the void between galaxies. If that is so, they must have a means of power production like photosynthesis at the very least, or they would all be dead after they first left a galaxy. We can't even fathom how this extra galactic species even functions, let alone survives.

It's *sort of* covered in the fluff but basically, yeah, everything goes dormant during transit until they can find a new source of bio-mass (which could even include other nids). They can't really produce energy the way the other races can.

So efficiency of power plants and total power output is meaningless.
Size of empire is meaningless.
Art and culture are meaningless.
And diplomatic skill and social structure are meaningless.
Adaptability and ingenuity are meaningless.

What seems to matter to war gamers:
Weapon Tech.
Transportation Tech.

Those are some of the things you listed as wanting to be meaningful.

So for the 'Nids the chart would look like this:

efficiency of power plants -
debatable but certainly not on par with the other races and in no way able to compete with the top tier societies. Also requires fairly rediculous quantities of bio mass to fuel them.

Size of empire-
because of the above there technically is no "nid empire". Just hive fleets and the floating husks left in their wake. If you want to say the fleets are their empire then fair enough but now you're back to needing to consume to live and they are operating on the zero sum game again. That's not much of an "empire".

Art and culture -
the nids have none

diplomatic skill and social structure -
no diplomatic structure at all, "social structure" akin to a highly advance Bee hive ...

Adaptability and ingenuity-
Strongly adaptable so that's definitly one in their favor.

Weapon Tech. -
I know this is category is one that you were annoyed at, but it's also one the nids are pretty decent at. If we were ranking them on this alone I could place them as high as #4.

Transportation Tech.-
They have the weakest form of it when compared to all the other main races

So looking at them in terms of that, still not seeing 'Nids as number two.

 Frazzled wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually, no. Eldar Weapons tech is advanced, but much like the Old Ones, not as advanced as the Necrons. However, what does give them an advantage is their mobility; Eldar can react and move much faster than Necrons, allowing them to quickly flank and apply pressure when needed.

Necrons also have Titans and Large Scale SHV by the way; we just haven't seen them yet. We've only seen a small portion of their armory.

One activated Eldar Blackstone fortress wiped out an eldar fleet off Cadia no?

Yep, and an overloaded doomsday ark burnt an entire world to a crisp.
That's 1 necron tank that went haywire after an ork mek decided to have a look inside.

Necron and Eldar tech are some pretty scary stuff.
Hell, those Blackstones were created with the primary purpose of fighting C'tan.

Tycho wrote:

If they have no FTL then they spend millions if not billions of years in the void between galaxies. If that is so, they must have a means of power production like photosynthesis at the very least, or they would all be dead after they first left a galaxy. We can't even fathom how this extra galactic species even functions, let alone survives.

It's *sort of* covered in the fluff but basically, yeah, everything goes dormant during transit until they can find a new source of bio-mass (which could even include other nids). They can't really produce energy the way the other races can.

So efficiency of power plants and total power output is meaningless.
Size of empire is meaningless.
Art and culture are meaningless.
And diplomatic skill and social structure are meaningless.
Adaptability and ingenuity are meaningless.

What seems to matter to war gamers:
Weapon Tech.
Transportation Tech.

Those are some of the things you listed as wanting to be meaningful.

So for the 'Nids the chart would look like this:

efficiency of power plants -
debatable but certainly not on par with the other races and in no way able to compete with the top tier societies. Also requires fairly rediculous quantities of bio mass to fuel them.

Size of empire-
because of the above there technically is no "nid empire". Just hive fleets and the floating husks left in their wake. If you want to say the fleets are their empire then fair enough but now you're back to needing to consume to live and they are operating on the zero sum game again. That's not much of an "empire".

Art and culture -
the nids have none

diplomatic skill and social structure -
no diplomatic structure at all, "social structure" akin to a highly advance Bee hive ...

Adaptability and ingenuity-
Strongly adaptable so that's definitly one in their favor.

Weapon Tech. -
I know this is category is one that you were annoyed at, but it's also one the nids are pretty decent at. If we were ranking them on this alone I could place them as high as #4.

Transportation Tech.-
They have the weakest form of it when compared to all the other main races

So looking at them in terms of that, still not seeing 'Nids as number two.

Hm, my understanding of Nid fluff was incomplete then.

As a revision:

Break down of species characteristics, in no particular order:

Necrons: 25

Highly advanced destructive capabilities and mastery over time itself. Implied high power production as a result of the need to have infinity plus one power to overcome relativity. No sign or explanation as to how they over came this power supply need other than magic. Destructive capabilities reveal an affinity for destruction that outclasses any other race, however the ability goes unexplained and stands beyond any form of physics, explanation for this power as well must be declared as magic.

Over all I would rate them:
Culture: 3
Transportation: 5 (Mastery of FTL and time make long distance travel easy, and can use pocket dimensions)
Power Creation: 5? (They must have something amazing to power their equipment, but nothing particular is mentioned)
Weapons: 5 (Can blow up stars with magic)
Evolution: 1 (They are stagnant and have opted out of the evolutionary process)
Reproduction Rate: 2 (can produce blank slate soldiers)
Item Creation: 4? (They have advanced metals, but must create their items through industrial like processes)

Eldar: 25

With easily the most advanced transportation tech in the game the Web Way, they can control when and where they fight. They have overcome death with wraith tech, and have regularly created whole worlds. The amount of power generation necessary to create a planet is insane, wither they are simply patient, or this is a relatively quick process. If it is quick, this is amazing, and their power tech must at least be at the level of a type two civilization. Their weapons tech is not as powerful as other races though, making them an easy target for conquest.

Over all:
Culture: 4 (Advanced art and social structure has completely overcome biology)
Transportation: 5 (Web Way.)
Power Creation: 4 (Needed to create planets)
Weapons: 3 (Lances are great, but not overly powerful)
Evolution: 2 (Long lives restrict evolutionary advancement)
Reproduction Rate: 2
Item Creation: 5 (Can will items into existence)

Tau: 23

Tau live short lives and thus evolve much faster than other races. This is evident in their technological advancement as their tech has and does quickly overcome any situation. They also appear to have a tactical brilliance bordering on super human. They have regularly outclassed other, more advanced races militarily with nothing, but tactics. Power production is at least on the level of a type one civilization as they have planet wide geothermal nets, however their transportation and weapons tech is in many ways less advanced than are those of other races.However their rail gun tech has made their fleet a force to be reckoned with and can easily and instantly cause a supernova.

Over all:
Culture: 4 (They have not only overcome biology, but have a thriving scientific and artistic sub class. Their diplomatic skills are second to not other race.)
Transportation: 2 (They only have basic FTL)
Power Creation: 3 (Geothermal Nets)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Rail guns and missiles baring artificial intelligence)
Evolution: 4 (They evolve much faster than other races.)
Reproduction Rate: 3
Item Creation: 3 (Advanced materials, but require artisans to produce them)

Humanity: 23

Humanity is stagnant technologically, but still horribly advanced. Their tech includes warp transportation, extermination engines, and vast cities in space. They dwarf many races in power. Their super soldiers are barely beyond rudimentary tech, but they are extremely impressive despite this. Their culture is vibrant, but close minded, and xenophobic, it seems to be designed to preserve the statuesque.

Over all:
Culture: 3 (Advanced and vibrant, but close minded and stagnant)
Transportation: 4 (Warp drive)
Power Creation: 3 (Terra is at least type one)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Titans and extermination engines)
Evolution: 3 (Rather standard life spanes and reproduction rates)
Reproduction Rate: 3
Item Creation: 3 (Advanced metals, but require an expansive industrial infrastructure)

Tyranids: 21

The commander of multiple galaxies and a master of genetic manipulation the hive mind rains supreme as the single most powerful being in the universe thus far. Nothing is said about their power supply or capability, so we will assume that this massively impressive feat was achieved by a type zero civilization. The hive mind does however control both the rate of evolution and reproduction of its many bodies, and can manipulate them to meet any need.

Overall:
Culture: 1 (The Hive Mind is a single entity and thus is stagnant culturally)
Transportation: 1
Power Creation: 2 (The Hive is type zero, but its ability to translate biomass into usable energy is second to none.)
Weapons Tech: 3 (Can instantly evolve the perfect weapon for any engagement)
Evolution: 5 (Controls its own rate of evolution)
Reproduction Rate: 5 (At will)
Item Creation: 4 (Advanced materials created at will, but require spawn pools)

Orks: 17

Impressively numerous and determined to win any and all wars, orks are the perfect weapon. They have shown limited diplomatic skills, and a deep social structure, but for the most part "Da biggest is da boss." Their ability to travel is impressive, but the randomness of it must be taken into consideration.

Overall:
Culture: 3
Transportation: 2 (Warp travel, but random)
Power Creation: 1 (They are the type zeroest of the type zeros)
Weapons Tech: 3 (Their own fists represent some of the most powerful weapons in the galaxy.)
Evolution: 1 (They have never evolved, and don't care to even think about it.)
Reproduction Rate: 5
Item Creation: 2 (Inferior materials, only assembled by the engineer cast)

So now the standings are:

1st: Eldar
2nd: Necrons
3rd: Humanity/Tau
4th: Nids
5th: Orks

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Their ships produce vast amounts of energy, as do many of their biomorphs, their entire civilization is a massive energy generator, and the energy produced is sued to spawn more hive ships and soldiers. And their social political system is so thoroughly evolved they suffer no revolutions or internal struggles and work solely for the hive mind. It is in many ways the perfect political system. And as every tyranid dex has stated, the fleets that have struck here are only scouts. Future fleets will include biomorphs designed solely to crush the lifeforms of our galaxy. They have all the time in the world.

And to say none of that is actually tech is to argue semantics again. See previously posted statements for details.

Can someone explain to me how you produce energy because as far as I know it's not possible.
And no, each Tyranid Codex has hinted at this, none of them have said it.
IIRC the rough thing they said was that they could be scout fleets or this could be it, a shattered fragment of a forgotten race.

In my opinion, Orks. They have the strongest social structure and, honestly, the most ingenious technology. They make warp guns out of scrap metal for god sake.

And, no. They don't have revolutions because they're mindless animals controlled by the greatest psyker (bar one) in the galaxy.

Just for fun I will do Chaos.

Chaos: 26? possibly 27?

Made up of 4 gods, a slew of worshipers and run as a complete meritocracy, Chaos has some interesting characteristics.

Culture: 3 (Has a strict authoritarian government with clear artistic and architectural patterns.)
Transportation: 5 (Can go anywhere it wants and communicate instantly anywhere)
Power Creation: 3 (Relies on worshipers for power, but has no shortage)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Has everything its worshipers have and more)
Evolution: 2 (relies heavily on worshipers for evolutionary change)
Reproduction: 4-5 (gains worshipers daily, daemons can be created at will for any occasion)
Item Creation: 5 (Gods can will just about anything into existence, and use captured industry from worshipers)

This would mean Chaos wins?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Their ships produce vast amounts of energy, as do many of their biomorphs, their entire civilization is a massive energy generator, and the energy produced is sued to spawn more hive ships and soldiers. And their social political system is so thoroughly evolved they suffer no revolutions or internal struggles and work solely for the hive mind. It is in many ways the perfect political system. And as every tyranid dex has stated, the fleets that have struck here are only scouts. Future fleets will include biomorphs designed solely to crush the lifeforms of our galaxy. They have all the time in the world.

And to say none of that is actually tech is to argue semantics again. See previously posted statements for details.

Can someone explain to me how you produce energy because as far as I know it's not possible.
And no, each Tyranid Codex has hinted at this, none of them have said it.
IIRC the rough thing they said was that they could be scout fleets or this could be it, a shattered fragment of a forgotten race.

In my opinion, Orks. They have the strongest social structure and, honestly, the most ingenious technology. They make warp guns out of scrap metal for god sake.

And, no. They don't have revolutions because they're mindless animals controlled by the greatest psyker (bar one) in the galaxy.

Orks fight each other every day, when there is no other race to fight that is. And when the biggest is killed fights instantly break out over who is in charge. Who is this most powerful psycher? I haven't heard this bit of fluff.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Just for fun I will do Chaos.

Chaos: 26? possibly 27?

Made up of 4 gods, a slew of worshipers and run as a complete meritocracy, Chaos has some interesting characteristics.

Culture: 3 (Has a strict authoritarian government with clear artistic and architectural patterns.)
Transportation: 5 (Can go anywhere it wants and communicate instantly anywhere)
Power Creation: 3 (Relies on worshipers for power, but has no shortage)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Has everything its worshipers have and more)
Evolution: 2 (relies heavily on worshipers for evolutionary change)
Reproduction: 4-5 (gains worshipers daily, daemons can be created at will for any occasion)
Item Creation: 5 (Gods can will just about anything into existence, and use captured industry from worshipers)

This would mean Chaos wins?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Their ships produce vast amounts of energy, as do many of their biomorphs, their entire civilization is a massive energy generator, and the energy produced is sued to spawn more hive ships and soldiers. And their social political system is so thoroughly evolved they suffer no revolutions or internal struggles and work solely for the hive mind. It is in many ways the perfect political system. And as every tyranid dex has stated, the fleets that have struck here are only scouts. Future fleets will include biomorphs designed solely to crush the lifeforms of our galaxy. They have all the time in the world.

And to say none of that is actually tech is to argue semantics again. See previously posted statements for details.

Can someone explain to me how you produce energy because as far as I know it's not possible.
And no, each Tyranid Codex has hinted at this, none of them have said it.
IIRC the rough thing they said was that they could be scout fleets or this could be it, a shattered fragment of a forgotten race.

In my opinion, Orks. They have the strongest social structure and, honestly, the most ingenious technology. They make warp guns out of scrap metal for god sake.

And, no. They don't have revolutions because they're mindless animals controlled by the greatest psyker (bar one) in the galaxy.

Orks fight each other every day, when there is no other race to fight that is. And when the biggest is killed fights instantly break out over who is in charge. Who is this most powerful psycher? I haven't heard this bit of fluff.

The Emperor, it's the reason the Tyranids are drawn to the Astronomican.
And, yes. The Orks have the perfect social system. No revolution, just leader after leader after leader. They also weak out the weakest through infighting, it's Darwinism perfected. The strongest survive and the strongest lead.
IMO it goes:
Empy
Hive Mind
Kairos
Etc.

Also, let's not forget the minor gods. There's a god for literally everything, it's just we always hear about the Big 4. Let's not forget Malice
In terms of power creation, they have unlimited, yet finite power, if that makes any sense. There is always a certain amount of power shared between all of the gods, no more is created but it is limitless in its depth.

Current standing according to my rubric is:

1st: Chaos
2nd: Eldar
3rd: Necrons
4th: Humanity/Tau
5th: Tyranids
6th: Orks

Sorry ork players but Codex Farsight Enclaves features in depth stories of ork revolutions and insurrection. I have no doubt that they may have a few empires that lack this phenomenon, but for the most part this seems to be true. Evidence otherwise if cited properly will be taken into consideration and the scoring changed as necessary.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Current standing according to my rubric is:

1st: Chaos
2nd: Eldar
3rd: Necrons
4th: Humanity/Tau
5th: Tyranids
6th: Orks

Sorry ork players but Codex Farsight Enclaves features in depth stories of ork revolutions and insurrection. I have no doubt that they may have a few empires that lack this phenomenon, but for the most part this seems to be true. Evidence otherwise if cited properly will be taken into consideration and the scoring changed as necessary.

If we're talking about society Chaos are worse than Orks. They're always fighting amongst eachother or plotting and scheming.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
**passes Murdius Maximus some popcorn.**

Shut up. Just watch.

Hey! Quit hogging the popcorn. We're only on page 4, it's just about tot get good.

**passes the OTHER bag of popcorn you didn't see**

I got your back bro.

If we're talking about society Chaos are worse than Orks. They're always fighting amongst eachother or plotting and scheming.

This statement is true, but outweighed by the artistic and literary traditions that have grown up around chaos cults. Orcs have no true artistic tradition other than the creation of their weapons and vehicles. For this reason I gave them the same score for culture in my rubric.

Necrons: 24

Highly advanced destructive capabilities and mastery over time itself. Implied high power production as a result of the need to have infinity plus one power to overcome relativity. No sign or explanation as to how they over came this power supply need other than magic. Destructive capabilities reveal an affinity for destruction that outclasses any other race, however the ability goes unexplained and stands beyond any form of physics, explanation for this power as well must be declared as magic.

Over all I would rate them:
Culture: 3
Transportation: 4 (Mastery of FTL and time make long distance travel easy, and can use pocket dimensions)
Power Creation: 5? (They must have something amazing to power their equipment, but nothing particular is mentioned)
Weapons: 5 (Can blow up stars with magic)
Evolution: 1 (They are stagnant and have opted out of the evolutionary process)
Reproduction Rate: 2 (can produce blank slate soldiers)
Item Creation: 4? (They have advanced metals, but must create their items through industrial like processes)

Necrons don't use magic. Their understanding of science is light-years beyond the greatest Humanity has ever known. They are a faction that does with Science!! that other factions do with magic or warp-craft. They are, in a sense, villains from 1950s sci-fi movies, using advanced genetics to create the terrible weapon of a monkey with five asses because they can.

The Necrons made physics their bi*ch. The Necrons made relativity their bi*ch. They made quantum theory their bi*ch. They made things humanity currently takes for granted in reality their bi*ch. The Necron mastery of Pimp Hand is, indeed, terrifyingly strong, as they have pimp-slapped reality into serving them.

 Psienesis wrote:

Necrons: 24

Highly advanced destructive capabilities and mastery over time itself. Implied high power production as a result of the need to have infinity plus one power to overcome relativity. No sign or explanation as to how they over came this power supply need other than magic. Destructive capabilities reveal an affinity for destruction that outclasses any other race, however the ability goes unexplained and stands beyond any form of physics, explanation for this power as well must be declared as magic.

Over all I would rate them:
Culture: 3
Transportation: 4 (Mastery of FTL and time make long distance travel easy, and can use pocket dimensions)
Power Creation: 5? (They must have something amazing to power their equipment, but nothing particular is mentioned)
Weapons: 5 (Can blow up stars with magic)
Evolution: 1 (They are stagnant and have opted out of the evolutionary process)
Reproduction Rate: 2 (can produce blank slate soldiers)
Item Creation: 4? (They have advanced metals, but must create their items through industrial like processes)

Necrons don't use magic. Their understanding of science is light-years beyond the greatest Humanity has ever known. They are a faction that does with Science!! that other factions do with magic or warp-craft. They are, in a sense, villains from 1950s sci-fi movies, using advanced genetics to create the terrible weapon of a monkey with five asses because they can.

The Necrons made physics their bi*ch. The Necrons made relativity their bi*ch. They made quantum theory their bi*ch. They made things humanity currently takes for granted in reality their bi*ch. The Necron mastery of Pimp Hand is, indeed, terrifyingly strong, as they have pimp-slapped reality into serving them.

I was not saying they use magic, only that magic, or the equivalent would be needed for actual people in the real world to achieve those feats. My way of being sarcastic that is to say. It is my opinion the writers in their infinite childishness gave the Necrons those things just to hit home how super advanced they wanted people to believe they were.

But then this is my opinion, and I hate GW's writers.

Nah, just a far, far better understanding of science and technology than we are ever likely to have. That's the Necrons' schtick: "because Science!"

They have access to the Web-Way, via Dolmen Gates. They have inertialess drives that make their ships the fastest in the galaxy. They have a "reset" button for every star in the galaxy. They have an active time-traveler. They have a guy who, except against Orks (who's lack of tactics is an effective tactic against this guy), is the greatest tactical mind the galaxy has ever seen. They have another guy who creates hard-light sculptures in his garden in his spare time and just pops up when and wherever he likes to steal interesting tidbits from other factions. Like Sebastian Thor's head.

danny1995 wrote:
I don't think the Necrons are really all that advanced, their technological abilities are not their own, simply what the C'Tan did to them. So my vote goes to Eldar, based on their weapons technology, their Craftworlds, and their psychic technology. I mean come on, they capture souls and turn them into giant death robots.

Actually, that's not true. About the Necrons, I mean.

Oldcron fluff, Necrons had a space-age society and initiated contact with the C'tan, upon which point the C'tan taught them to put their souls in robot bodies.

Newcron fluff, Necrons had a galaxy-spanning Empire and got into a war with the Eldar before they ever bothered with the C'tan, and only got Biotransference as a method of fighting against the Eldar warp-powers.

That too, what Furyo said.

In the Newcrons, the Necrons were an *advanced* society that ruled a galactic empire that beggars both the Ork empires and the Imperium in size. They had mastered the arts of physical sciences so thoroughly that they then turned their attentions to metaphysical sciences, just to have something new to think about.

Then they decided to go to war against the magic-using Old Ones, and got butt-spanked. The C'Tan show up (actually, had been there awhile, the Necrons finally notice the thing eating a star is sentient) and they make contact. The C'Tan feed them some line of BS (or might be true, but probably isn't) about also having been wtf-spanked by the Old Ones, and so they join up.

War cranks up again... and still, they start losing. So the Necrons decided to Bio-transfer themselves (as they had already done it to the C'Tan... Biotransference is a Necron science!) and then return to the war. Now, being as effectively immortal as possible, things go much better, and they destroy the C'Tan. Then, being pissed that they have destroyed their culture for the C'Tan, they turn their weapons against the star-gods and shatter almost all of them, outright killing one.

Necrons might claim they defeated the Old Ones, but the Old Ones destroyed themselves via the Warp (demons or something similar). After that happened, the Eldar still went on to win the War in Heaven, forcing the Necrons to go into hiding and sleep.

Necrons did have better technology, but the Eldar had the Warp. Not just Psykers, but Asuran, Khaine (not just the shard they have now), Vaul, and more.

The Eldar are so advanced that their civilization collapsed in on itself and the remnants of the old Eldar lifestyle are hiding out.

At least the Tau are actively advancing (says so in the Codex!) whereas everyone else is in either stagnation (Imperium) or decline (Eldar). Chaos feeds on the remnants of Imperial technology, what they can get, so they're even a few paces behind the Imperium and it's tough to argue otherwise.

And regarding the Orks, well:

Uthan the Perverse, Eldar Philosopher wrote:The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

 TedNugent wrote:
The Eldar are so advanced that their civilization collapsed in on itself and the remnants of the old Eldar lifestyle are hiding out.

At least the Tau are actively advancing (says so in the Codex!) whereas everyone else is in either stagnation (Imperium) or decline (Eldar). Chaos feeds on the remnants of Imperial technology, what they can get, so they're even a few paces behind the Imperium and it's tough to argue otherwise.

And regarding the Orks, well:

Uthan the Perverse, Eldar Philosopher wrote:The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

Chaos has dark age of technology tech out the wazoo. Remember half of the Founding space marine chapters joined them, and a good portion of Adaptes Mechanis. And on top of that they have demon engines that rival even the most advanced tech of other races. Chaos has tech, just because they psychic it into existence doesn't mean it isn't advanced.

Tycho wrote:

It's *sort of* covered in the fluff but basically, yeah, everything goes dormant during transit until they can find a new source of bio-mass (which could even include other nids). They can't really produce energy the way the other races can.

Those are some of the things you listed as wanting to be meaningful.

So for the 'Nids the chart would look like this:

efficiency of power plants -
debatable but certainly not on par with the other races and in no way able to compete with the top tier societies. Also requires fairly rediculous quantities of bio mass to fuel them.

They can consume all the biosphere and a considerable chunk of the crust of a planet in a few months. That takes a lot of energy. In fact the Tyranids as described in fluff shouldn't be able to exist solely on biomass' energy. So either they have another energy source or they broke thermodynamics.

Size of empire-
because of the above there technically is no "nid empire". Just hive fleets and the floating husks left in their wake. If you want to say the fleets are their empire then fair enough but now you're back to needing to consume to live and they are operating on the zero sum game again. That's not much of an "empire".

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Transportation Tech.-
They have the weakest form of it when compared to all the other main races

While their FTL is the slowest, it is also the most reliable one.

So looking at them in terms of that, still not seeing 'Nids as number two.

Tyranids also have the advantage of numbers and sheer production.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Their ships produce vast amounts of energy, as do many of their biomorphs, their entire civilization is a massive energy generator, and the energy produced is sued to spawn more hive ships and soldiers. And their social political system is so thoroughly evolved they suffer no revolutions or internal struggles and work solely for the hive mind. It is in many ways the perfect political system. And as every tyranid dex has stated, the fleets that have struck here are only scouts. Future fleets will include biomorphs designed solely to crush the lifeforms of our galaxy. They have all the time in the world.

And to say none of that is actually tech is to argue semantics again. See previously posted statements for details.

And no, each Tyranid Codex has hinted at this, none of them have said it.

IIRC the rough thing they said was that they could be scout fleets or this could be it, a shattered fragment of a forgotten race.

Actually it was the 6th edition Rulebook what said it:
"Unbeknownst to the Imperium, the threat is of an even greater magnitude, for the bulk of the Tyranids have not yet reached the Imperium's galaxy, their masses still strewn out across the void. So immeasurably large is the invasion fleet that its furthest stretched tentacles alone have entered the Imperium's space. Each of the identified Hive Fleets is but a splinter of that single monstrous host, the Hive Mind. what horrors await, only time will tell."

And, no. They don't have revolutions because they're mindless animals controlled by the greatest psyker (bar one) in the galaxy.

Its a single super organism. I even doubt that the Hive Mind exist in a single body, but rather it is a immense web of synapse creatures. Also parts of it are quite autonomous. The synapse creatures have different levels of autonomy and self awareness. And the vanguard creatures are fully autonomous.

So...freaking... awesome...

I love Geekuments man. I made that word up just now. Note the time and date!

Necrons. They can even make see through green plastic.

*Wonders if there is more popcor*

Bharring wrote:
Necrons might claim they defeated the Old Ones, but the Old Ones destroyed themselves via the Warp (demons or something similar). After that happened, the Eldar still went on to win the War in Heaven, forcing the Necrons to go into hiding and sleep.

Necrons did have better technology, but the Eldar had the Warp. Not just Psykers, but Asuran, Khaine (not just the shard they have now), Vaul, and more.

The Enslaver Plague was retconned away.

The Necrons genocided the Old Ones fair and square despite the Old Ones throwing everything and the kitchen sink at them.

Because there could only be one fascistic galactic hegemony.

 Jancoran wrote:
So...freaking... awesome...

I love Geekuments man. I made that word up just now. Note the time and date!

Copyright it before someone else does! Geekuments©

As to the Tyranids, I doubt they can be rated against actual civilisations like the Necrons or IoM because they lack a civilisation entirely.
There is no such thing as 'the Tyranids'. There is only one, single Tyranid: The Hive Mind. All other organisms are just animals, possessing only instincts and lacking sentience and self-awareness.
Arguably, even the Hive Mind itself acts only according to its instincts.
I say Tyranids can not be rated until they develop a civilisation.

The Eldar. Their advancement of their own society was so great that it lead to their downfall and current situation. Their Tech utilizes not only scientific technology that brilliant minds are required to create, but a mind even so far evolved that the race as a whole is a minor psycher.

Dark Eldar / Eldar... Webway portals, reanimation, their darklight weapons...

Still no one has given me a reason to change my rubric's decision. As it stands we still have this order:

1st: Chaos
2nd: Eldar
3rd: Necrons
4th: Tau/Humanity
5th: Tyranids
6th: Orks

Feel free to go back and make arguments as to where races should stand. Most of the above conversation was covered and accounted for in my rubric.

I still think that's a terrible way of scoring them. The individual categories should have weightings, and your weightings just end up being biased. You might as well just say "x race is more advanced because y".

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Still no one has given me a reason to change my rubric's decision. As it stands we still have this order:

1st: Chaos
2nd: Eldar
3rd: Necrons
4th: Tau/Humanity
5th: Tyranids
6th: Orks

Feel free to go back and make arguments as to where races should stand. Most of the above conversation was covered and accounted for in my rubric.

I would move the Tyranids above Tau/Humanity and the Necrons on the same level as the Eldar. Also I would add C'tans on the same level as Chaos.

Bharring wrote:
Necrons might claim they defeated the Old Ones, but the Old Ones destroyed themselves via the Warp (demons or something similar). After that happened, the Eldar still went on to win the War in Heaven, forcing the Necrons to go into hiding and sleep.

Necrons did have better technology, but the Eldar had the Warp. Not just Psykers, but Asuran, Khaine (not just the shard they have now), Vaul, and more.

You may want to re-read Codex Necrons- the Necrons were solidly kicking the Old One's asses along with their Eldar lackies and have invaded the webway to besiege them even there. In their desperation the Old Ones resorted to such abuse of the warp that it ended up backfiring horribly and effectively finished them off.

At that point the War in Heaven was basically won and the Necrons turned on the C'tan in a massive uprising that saw their empire shattered and reduced to but a shadow of its former self, which is why they couldn't handle the resurgent Eldar at the time.

Regarding the OP, the Necrons are clearly by far the most technologically advanced race in the 40k setting. Let us review some of their technological capabilities:

Gauss Weapons: The most common of Necron weapon systems, Gauss weapons work by creating a ridiculously powerful electromagnetic field (as near as anyone can tell) that literally rips apart the target's subatomic structure and pulls the resulting elementry particles back towards the barrel of the weapon in the form of a green lightning bolt, literally flaying the victim apart at the subatomic level. The smallest and weakest of these weapons, the Gauss Flayer, wielded by the lowest of Necron infantry, is capable of vaporizing a Space Marine in Terminator armor with a single shot and is a credible threat to Imperial tanks. Imperial scientists are particularly baffled by the fact that the weapon does not reduce the gun's immediate vicinity into molten rock with its waste heat, as by all laws of thermodynamics as understood by Imperial scientists the waste heat they should produce even under ideal conditions should be utterly stupendous. As an added bonus, these weapons also seem to ignore most forms of energy shielding. Whenever a Necron fires one of these guns he's basically bending physics over like a cheap whore and then slaps her and laughs when she turns around and asks for her money.

Communication: All Necrons are connected into a hierarchical quantum entenglement communication network, giving them instant lag-free communication that is completely unaffected by range.

Doomsday cannons: sizable Necron field artillery pieces with titan level firepower who's power cores are powerful enough to destroy entire planets when overloaded.

Engines: The Inertialess Drive allows Necron fleets to go from 0 to .99c in the blink of an eye and turn on a dime while maneuvering at those speeds. These engined rape physics to such an extent that they can also serve as FTL drives. The largest Necron capital ships can pull off maneuvers that would leave Imperial fighter pilots crying themselves to sleep in envy.

Tessaract Arks: Basically a Necron heavy weapons platform, this vehicle is built around a black hole which serves as its primary weapon, unleashing gravity waves and radiation bursts to destroy its targets. Imperial intelligence assesments rate it as a terminus level threat that should only ever be engaged at long range with saturation ordnance and superheavy battlefield assets, "if forced into close ranged engagement viictory is unassured regardless of battlefield advantage".

Aeonic Orbs: Take a sun, compress it into a superheavy tank sized containment device and then deploy it as a ground combat vehicle that fights by selectively loosening containment in the enemy's general direction.

World Engines: this is what you get when a Necron Lord decides to take his Tomb World on a joy ride. These things put the Death Stars to shame and laugh at massed use of exterminatus grade weaponry.

Stellar manipulation tech: The Celestial Orrary and its ability to make every star in the galaxy go nova has already been mentioned, but that is far from the only method of stellar manipulation available to the Necrons- Cairn class tombships have been known to drain away energy from stars to boost their own power reserves or those of nearby Tombworlds, taking mere moment to leach off hundreds of thousands of years worth of a star's output in a single go (and it takes many such power draining cycles to feed a "dry" tombworld). Moreover, Necron invasion fleets have been known to trigger super massive solar flares as their equivalent of a flash bang when invading a system and in one instance had outright turned off a system's star as a planetary siege tactic.

Temporal manipulation tech: Everything from stasis tech through handheld gadgets that slow down time for anyone who gets too close to the user to full blown reliable time travel. Other notable applications include temporal vision, reading temporal flows to predict the future and the used of temporal manipulation tech to repair vehicles by selectively rewinding time around damaged parts.

Warp manipulation: the Necrons are capable of technologically affecting the immaterium in several ways- first and foremost is their warp repelling tech seen on Cadia that is actively preventing the Eye of Terror from swallowing up the Cadian system. Other prime examples include the Dolmen Gates that allow them to breach the Webway and pull off insane stunts such as translating a supernova into the warp (basically screwed over anything warp related across an entire sector for well over a year), the ability to block, intercept and/or otherwise hack into warp based communication and the ability to somehow intercept vessels traveling through the Warp.

Dimensional manipulation: Tomb worlds are bigger on the inside, high grade Necron armor boasts non-euclidean molecular structure, Necron Lords often walk around with pocket dimension prisons in their utility belt, Necron maintenance drones can selectively phase portions of their bodies in and out of reality to affect repairs without having to first open up the device they're repairing and their snipers can hang around in Hyperspace while marking their intended targets and can even kill them without ever bothering to set foot in the material plane.

Teleportation: even the lowliest Necron warrior possesses the ability to "phase out" and teleport itself back to the nearest Tombworld (usually to affect repairs against damage that is beyond what his on board reanimation protocols are capable of handling). The Necrons are also masters of teleport assaults, often beaming boarding parties onto enemy vessels in battle and utilizing portable wormholes to deploy troops onto the battlefield instead of using "conventional" transports.

Electronic warfare: Necrons have proven time and again to be masters of this particular field, taking over Imperial vehicles with a gesture, effortlessly hacking through any security protocol known to man, releasing superluminal pulses of malicious signals that infect systems with maleware so potent it drives AIs mad, locks up cogenitors, messes up any system it comes into contact with and cannot be removed in any way known to the Imperium or the Admech short of basically frying the circuits and rebooting the system with fresh electronics. Necron ECM is nothing short of phenomenal, remotely turning off Imperial torpedoes or making them go haywire, draining away the power from nearby strike craft and ordnance and even driving mad the pilots of fighters that draw too near.

I could go on, but I feel this list should do for now.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I still think that's a terrible way of scoring them. The individual categories should have weightings, and your weightings just end up being biased. You might as well just say "x race is more advanced because y".

How would you weight them? I am very curious, I am trying to come up with a no bias scoring system.

Also as far as bias each category has rules for me at least.

Culture:
1=(No cultural interaction) 2=(interaction of some kind, but unorganized) 3=(Organized interaction driven primarily by biological impulses) 4=Cultural interaction that has overcome basic biological impulses) 5=(Society is dependent on cultural interaction and overcome all biological impulses striving for a shared goal)

Transportation:
1=(No ftl) 2=(ftl) 3=(ftl with stasis) 4= (warp drive) 5=(an almost instantaneous transport to any location)

Power Creation:
1=(relies on fissile fuels with low efficiency) 2=(high efficiency fuel tech) 3=(type one society) 4=(type two society) 5=(type three society)
*(Type one societies can tap into 100% of a planets power creation, type two can do this to a sun, type three can do this to a galaxy)

Weapons tech:
1=(Spears and swords) 2=(some kind of guns) 3=(advanced weaponry featuring electricity most likely) 4=(super weapons that can destroy whole planets with ease) 5=(the ability to destroy whole systems with ease)

Evolution:
1=(can not evolve) 2=(slower than current human evolution) 3=(current human rates) 4=(faster than human rate) 5=(evolves at will)

Reproduction:
1=(can not reproduce) 2=(slower than human reproduction) 3=(human reproduction rates) 4=(faster than human reproduction) 5=(reproduces at will or constantly)

Item creation:
1=(items made by hand by those who plan to use them) 2=(items made by artisans for specific individuals) 3=(Items mass produced by industry) 4=(Advanced materials of insane strength or abilities made by an industrial complex) 5=(Items made at will and instantly usable)

I tried to let the fluff do the talking for me in these categories, but if you feel one is wrong, or one is missing, tell me so I will try to make adjustments accordingly.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I still think that's a terrible way of scoring them. The individual categories should have weightings, and your weightings just end up being biased. You might as well just say "x race is more advanced because y".

How would you weight them? I am very curious, I am trying to come up with a no bias scoring system.

Also as far as bias each category has rules for me at least.

Culture:
1=(No cultural interaction) 2=(interaction of some kind, but unorganized) 3=(Organized interaction driven primarily by biological impulses) 4=Cultural interaction that has overcome basic biological impulses) 5=(Society is dependent on cultural interaction and overcome all biological impulses striving for a shared goal)

The way you define culture is really weird. You should rename it to interaction or diplomacy instead depending on what you mean with 'interaction'.
Culture is stuff like art, customs, belief, way of life, values, social practices etc.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I still think that's a terrible way of scoring them. The individual categories should have weightings, and your weightings just end up being biased. You might as well just say "x race is more advanced because y".

How would you weight them? I am very curious, I am trying to come up with a no bias scoring system.

Also as far as bias each category has rules for me at least.

Culture:
1=(No cultural interaction) 2=(interaction of some kind, but unorganized) 3=(Organized interaction driven primarily by biological impulses) 4=Cultural interaction that has overcome basic biological impulses) 5=(Society is dependent on cultural interaction and overcome all biological impulses striving for a shared goal)

The way you define culture is really weird. You should rename it to interaction or diplomacy instead depending on what you mean with 'interaction'.

Culture necessarily requires interaction, but the category also takes art and literature into consideration, art and literature are usually tools to achieve a biological end, such as safety, material gain, or a mate. This category is meant to overcome the messy process of determining who's art is better and get down to the bare essentials of the process. Why did you do this, for a creed or principle, or to get laid.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I still think that's a terrible way of scoring them. The individual categories should have weightings, and your weightings just end up being biased. You might as well just say "x race is more advanced because y".

How would you weight them? I am very curious, I am trying to come up with a no bias scoring system.

Also as far as bias each category has rules for me at least.

Culture:
1=(No cultural interaction) 2=(interaction of some kind, but unorganized) 3=(Organized interaction driven primarily by biological impulses) 4=Cultural interaction that has overcome basic biological impulses) 5=(Society is dependent on cultural interaction and overcome all biological impulses striving for a shared goal)

The way you define culture is really weird. You should rename it to interaction or diplomacy instead depending on what you mean with 'interaction'.

Culture necessarily requires interaction, but the category also takes art and literature into consideration, art and literature are usually tools to achieve a biological end, such as safety, material gain, or a mate. This category is meant to overcome the messy process of determining who's art is better and get down to the bare essentials of the process. Why did you do this, for a creed or principle, or to get laid.

Than why is 'interaction driven by biological impulses' better than 'unorganized interaction'? And what is actually meant by 'unorganized interaction'?
Culture requires interaction, yes, but you can't rate culture just by the method of interaction. The Tyranids for example, have quite an advanced way of interacting, but they do not have any kind of culture at all.
Imo, culture should be rated based on things like social structure, language, writing system and literature, art, social customs, interaction and other things that determine civilisation.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Than why is 'interaction driven by biological impulses' better than 'unorganized interaction'? And what is actually meant by 'unorganized interaction'?
Culture requires interaction, yes, but you can't rate culture just by the method of interaction. The Tyranids for example, have quite an advanced way of interacting, but they do not have any kind of culture at all.
Imo, culture should be rated based on things like social structure, language, writing system and literature, art, social customs, interaction and other things that determine civilisation.

I was trying to avoid a lengthened explanation like this, but here I go:

No cultural Interaction; The inability to interact with other members of the same species; The hive mind is a single entity and therefor can not interact with itself.

Some cultural interaction that is unorganized; Interacting with one another in specific ways, but seeking no organized society of any kind, or resulting in physical altercations and even murder when prolonged; Worms and colonies on insects fit this description, they interact, but barely.

Organized interaction driven primarily by biological impulses; Interaction that includes a highly organized even ritualistic system of motions, sounds(such as language), or even art. Can include architecture and complex political systems.; Current human society is a means to a biological end, the ultimate goal of all human interaction on earth is to gain better security, or mating rights. Some humans are close to or even have passed beyond this level, like the Buddha, but most hardly think beyond their wants and needs.

Cultural interactions that have overcome biological impulses; A society not driven by the need for security or reproduction, but rather lives in a completely enlightened state.; Think an entire civilization of Buddhist monks, I believe the Eldar have definitely reached this level, well Craft World Eldar anyway. Vulcans are a good example as well.

Society is dependent on cultural interaction and overcome all biological impulses striving for a shared goal; The entire species has forgone their individuality and all petty mortal desires to strive for a single overarching goal, the good of their species.; In my opinion Tau, but to further explain, this requires each member of the species to consciously overcome their desires, without conscious decision the species is instead a level 1 or 2 at most.

Tau aren't like that when we consider stuff happening like the breakoff to the Farsight Enclaves, and I'm sure a number of other events we're simply not told about. Tau should be a 4, not a 5, they aren't infallible unlike the Necrons.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Tau aren't like that when we consider stuff happening like the breakoff to the Farsight Enclaves, and I'm sure a number of other events we're simply not told about. Tau should be a 4, not a 5, they aren't infallible unlike the Necrons.

I agree entirely and did make them a 4 in my latest update of my rubric. There is a reason the tau and humans are tied for 4th place.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
*Wonders if there is more popcor*

**passes it, with a stash of gummi bears I was holding out on you**

 Jancoran wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
*Wonders if there is more popcor*

**passes it, with a stash of gummi bears I was holding out on you**

Dammit man! I knew it!

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
*Wonders if there is more popcor*

**passes it, with a stash of gummi bears I was holding out on you**

Dammit man! I knew it!

This is amazing, can't stop laughing.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Tau aren't like that when we consider stuff happening like the breakoff to the Farsight Enclaves, and I'm sure a number of other events we're simply not told about. Tau should be a 4, not a 5, they aren't infallible unlike the Necrons.

I agree entirely and did make them a 4 in my latest update of my rubric. There is a reason the tau and humans are tied for 4th place.

Ah awesome, thought you were working towards a 5 with your description of the weighting system.
I also agree on the point that Tyranids have no social structure, they're just animals.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Ah awesome, thought you were working towards a 5 with your description of the weighting system.
I also agree on the point that Tyranids have no social structure, they're just animals.

I think you will be hard pressed to describe Tyranids as "Simply animals."

The only reason I rate the Hive Mind as a one for culture is the fact that it is, but one entity. Pre-Hive Mind I imagine the Nids as one of the most advanced species one could imagine. The entire species developed such a strong co-existence and lack of care for their individual well being that they are willing to die at any time to allow others to be born in their stead. Also we have the Hive Mind itself to consider, again a super internet that allows each of the larger creatures to instantly transfer commands, thoughts, and even feelings to other bugs over vast ranges. This is by no means a lack of cultural interaction, but rather the most in depth and complex form of culture one could imagine. If it were not for their single entity status I would count the Nids as a five on my rubric.

If this still seems to difficult to accept, they regularly travel from galaxy to galaxy, and as others have said they do this while dormant. Please go forth and look up the physics equation to calculate where a galaxy will be at a given time millions of years from now based on its gravitational interactions with its local group and your own interaction with fluctuating gravitational systems on your way there. Do this then come back and say they are mindless animals... Because I find that to be the most incredulous statement one could make.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Ah awesome, thought you were working towards a 5 with your description of the weighting system.
I also agree on the point that Tyranids have no social structure, they're just animals.

I think you will be hard pressed to describe Tyranids as "Simply animals."

The only reason I rate the Hive Mind as a one for culture is the fact that it is, but one entity. Pre-Hive Mind I imagine the Nids as one of the most advanced species one could imagine. The entire species developed such a strong co-existence and lack of care for their individual well being that they are willing to die at any time to allow others to be born in their stead. Also we have the Hive Mind itself to consider, again a super internet that allows each of the larger creatures to instantly transfer commands, thoughts, and even feelings to other bugs over vast ranges. This is by no means a lack of cultural interaction, but rather the most in depth and complex form of culture one could imagine. If it were not for their single entity status I would count the Nids as a five on my rubric.

If this still seems to difficult to accept, they regularly travel from galaxy to galaxy, and as others have said they do this while dormant. Please go forth and look up the physics equation to calculate where a galaxy will be at a given time millions of years from now based on its gravitational interactions with its local group and your own interaction with fluctuating gravitational systems on your way there. Do this then come back and say they are mindless animals... Because I find that to be the most incredulous statement one could make.

When I think of Tyranids I imagine a big kid playing with toys. The toys don't have any emotions or feelings, the kid is always in control at all times, despite how sentient the toys may seem to be to another toy... Am I making sense?

I don't really see how culture is particularly relevant in a purely technological discussion.

Also, reproduction should be joined with longevity and industrial and expansion capabilities- the Necrons for example no longer breed as such, but they are functionally immortal and the worst case scenario for individuals short of having their Tombworld itself destroyed is for their body to be oblitirated to such an extent that they'll get their consciousnes uploaded into a new one. Moreover, they are a resurgent force in the 40K galaxy that is rapidly expanding its domains and their industrial technologies far outstrip anyone else's.

 Galorian wrote:
I don't really see how culture is particularly relevant in a purely technological discussion.

Also, reproduction should be joined with longevity and industrial and expansion capabilities- the Necrons for example no longer breed as such, but they are functionally immortal and the worst case scenario for individuals short of having their Tombworld itself destroyed is for their body to be oblitirated to such an extent that they'll get their consciousnes uploaded into a new one. Moreover, they are a resurgent force in the 40K galaxy that is rapidly expanding its domains and their industrial technologies far outstrip anyone else's.

This isn't purely technological. The title reads 'What is the most advanced race in 40k?'
Advanced doesn't always mean technologically.

Necrons simply because they can phase in and out of existance, insane self regeneration/defenses, and gauss weapons are the most potent type in 40k universe.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Tau aren't like that when we consider stuff happening like the breakoff to the Farsight Enclaves, and I'm sure a number of other events we're simply not told about. Tau should be a 4, not a 5, they aren't infallible unlike the Necrons.

I agree entirely and did make them a 4 in my latest update of my rubric. There is a reason the tau and humans are tied for 4th place.

>< Please stop calling it the rubric. I know it's technically correct, but I keep thinking you're talking about 1kSons.

 Galorian wrote:
I don't really see how culture is particularly relevant in a purely technological discussion.

Also, reproduction should be joined with longevity and industrial and expansion capabilities- the Necrons for example no longer breed as such, but they are functionally immortal and the worst case scenario for individuals short of having their Tombworld itself destroyed is for their body to be oblitirated to such an extent that they'll get their consciousnes uploaded into a new one. Moreover, they are a resurgent force in the 40K galaxy that is rapidly expanding its domains and their industrial technologies far outstrip anyone else's.

To your first comment I refer you to my first post in the thread:

Take into consideration all of each race's technology, not just weapons and transportation technology, but power creation, civilian tech, and social/political systems.
Keep in mind there is only one right answer.

Advanced does not mean technologically superior, but more advanced. Chaos is psychics and can do whatever it pleases, this is why Chaos is winning in my rubric currently. Just because they don't need technology to pull it off doesn't make them less advanced. They can will you to death... Sounds pretty advanced to me. Necrons need tools to reach the same ends, they need power sources, and an infrastructure to create all these things. A daemon needs its mind. For this reason if I take away even the most powerful Necrons power source he will be pretty useless, but a greater daemon on his own is capable of pretty much anything.

As for your comment on longevity being important, Chaos wins again, but then how long someone lives in peace time is not what we are going after here is it? We are trying to figure out how a species can grow and outnumber others, the pinnacle of evolution is reproduction after all, so how one species can come to outnumber another is extremely relevant to its level of advancement. The fact is, Necrons can not create new minds, they are finite in number and limited as a result. No other species is limited in this fashion and thus they have received a one for this category. They were upgraded to a two because one user claimed they can produce more blank slate soldiers as needed. Unless you can provide a logical argument for this category being removed or updated, it will remain as is.

.... Necrons are older than the Ruinous Powers. They predate anything someone from M41 would recognize as being of the Warp.

 Psienesis wrote:
.... Necrons are older than the Ruinous Powers. They predate anything someone from M41 would recognize as being of the Warp.

They predate the eye of terror maybe, but the Warp was always there, waiting.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Galorian wrote:
I don't really see how culture is particularly relevant in a purely technological discussion.

Also, reproduction should be joined with longevity and industrial and expansion capabilities- the Necrons for example no longer breed as such, but they are functionally immortal and the worst case scenario for individuals short of having their Tombworld itself destroyed is for their body to be oblitirated to such an extent that they'll get their consciousnes uploaded into a new one. Moreover, they are a resurgent force in the 40K galaxy that is rapidly expanding its domains and their industrial technologies far outstrip anyone else's.

To your first comment I refer you to my first post in the thread:

Take into consideration all of each race's technology, not just weapons and transportation technology, but power creation, civilian tech, and social/political systems.
Keep in mind there is only one right answer.

Advanced does not mean technologically superior, but more advanced. Chaos is psychics and can do whatever it pleases, this is why Chaos is winning in my rubric currently. Just because they don't need technology to pull it off doesn't make them less advanced. They can will you to death... Sounds pretty advanced to me. Necrons need tools to reach the same ends, they need power sources, and an infrastructure to create all these things. A daemon needs its mind. For this reason if I take away even the most powerful Necrons power source he will be pretty useless, but a greater daemon on his own is capable of pretty much anything.

As for your comment on longevity being important, Chaos wins again, but then how long someone lives in peace time is not what we are going after here is it? We are trying to figure out how a species can grow and outnumber others, the pinnacle of evolution is reproduction after all, so how one species can come to outnumber another is extremely relevant to its level of advancement. The fact is, Necrons can not create new minds, they are finite in number and limited as a result. No other species is limited in this fashion and thus they have received a one for this category. They were upgraded to a two because one user claimed they can produce more blank slate soldiers as needed. Unless you can provide a logical argument for this category being removed or updated, it will remain as is.

My bad...

It's as if my brain had an autocorrect feature that adds "technologically" before "advanced"...

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
.... Necrons are older than the Ruinous Powers. They predate anything someone from M41 would recognize as being of the Warp.

They predate the eye of terror maybe, but the Warp was always there, waiting.

Statement retracted, apparently Old one fluff says the Old one's are the oldest beings, then the Necrons, The Chaos gods are apparently new and have only existed since just before the Emperor was born.

Your rubrics are fairly flawed, but the chaos one is really bad....

Culture: 3 (Has a strict authoritarian government with clear artistic and architectural patterns.)

There is no defined culture in chaos, its... chaos. There is no clear artistic and achiteural patterns at all.. its exactly the opposite of that.

Transportation: 5 (Can go anywhere it wants and communicate instantly anywhere)

Not at all. The warp has limitations, it's why Daemons can't just appear out of nowhere, for no reason. The tides of the warp are fickle, and fluctuate all the time.

Power Creation: 3 (Relies on worshipers for power, but has no shortage)

Their powers also wax and wane because of the constant infighting between the four great gods.

Weapons Tech: 4 (Has everything its worshipers have and more)

They pretty much rely on Imperium tech, and the Dark Mechanicus. While some of it is supeiror to imperial counterparts, a lot of it has drawbacks. Such as Daemon Engines rampaging, mutations turning you into spawn or becoming undesirable... etc etc.

Evolution: 2 (relies heavily on worshipers for evolutionary change)

Sure, this one is right.

Reproduction: 4-5 (gains worshipers daily, daemons can be created at will for any occasion)

Daemons can be created at will, but it saps power from the chaos god. This results in them weakening themselves. That's why they don't do it.

Item Creation: 5 (Gods can will just about anything into existence, and use captured industry from worshipers)

This is also limited. For one, they can't do this in realspace, their power is very limited. And they are limited in the Warp because of the great game.

You really seem to be overestimating the Chaos Gods here. They are indeed very powerful, but they also have quite a bit of limitation. This stems from the great game, which severely limits how much a God Can/Will expend himself.

Although I would also inquire as to the half life of Necron living metal. The idea that their bodies stayed around for 300,000 years is just baffling... Matter does not work that way, but then we could also imply Necron magic is at play again so...

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Although I would also inquire as to the half life of Necron living metal. The idea that their bodies stayed around for 300,000 years is just baffling... Matter does not work that way, but then we could also imply Necron magic is at play again so...

300,000? You mean Sixty Million?

 Sasori wrote:
Your rubrics are fairly flawed, but the chaos one is really bad....

Culture: 3 (Has a strict authoritarian government with clear artistic and architectural patterns.)

There is no defined culture in chaos, its... chaos. There is no clear artistic and achiteural patterns at all.. its exactly the opposite of that.

Transportation: 5 (Can go anywhere it wants and communicate instantly anywhere)

Not at all. The warp has limitations, it's why Daemons can't just appear out of nowhere, for no reason. The tides of the warp are fickle, and fluctuate all the time.

Power Creation: 3 (Relies on worshipers for power, but has no shortage)

Their powers also wax and wane because of the constant infighting between the four great gods.

Weapons Tech: 4 (Has everything its worshipers have and more)

They pretty much rely on Imperium tech, and the Dark Mechanicus. While some of it is supeiror to imperial counterparts, a lot of it has drawbacks. Such as Daemon Engines rampaging, mutations turning you into spawn or becoming undesirable... etc etc.

Evolution: 2 (relies heavily on worshipers for evolutionary change)

Sure, this one is right.

Reproduction: 4-5 (gains worshipers daily, daemons can be created at will for any occasion)

Daemons can be created at will, but it saps power from the chaos god. This results in them weakening themselves. That's why they don't do it.

Item Creation: 5 (Gods can will just about anything into existence, and use captured industry from worshipers)

This is also limited. For one, they can't do this in realspace, their power is very limited. And they are limited in the Warp because of the great game.

You really seem to be overestimating the Chaos Gods here. They are indeed very powerful, but they also have quite a bit of limitation. This stems from the great game, which severely limits how much a God Can/Will expend himself.

These are great points, I was waiting for someone with more familiarity with Chaos to chime in. Updating accordingly:

Chaos: 24
Made up of 4 gods, a slew of worshipers and run as a complete meritocracy, Chaos has some interesting characteristics.

Culture: 3 (Has a strict authoritarian government)
Transportation: 3 (Can go anywhere it wants and communicate instantly when possible)
Power Creation: 4 (Relies on worshipers for power, but is limited, but power creation is still at least on the level of the Humanity's)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Has everything its worshipers have and more)
Evolution: 2 (relies heavily on worshipers for evolutionary change)
Reproduction: 4 (gains worshipers daily, daemons can be created at will for a cost)
Item Creation: 4 (Gods can will just about anything into existence but only in the warp, and use captured industry from worshipers)

Weapons tech will remain unchanged because they do have much of the same tech as the Imperium and possibly more. Culture will remain the same as each god's worshipers do have clear hierarchies and systems they go by, at least on par with the Orks that is. Reproduction is equal to the birth rate of worshipers and the frequency of converts so it is greater than the human reproduction rate. Power creation equals worshiper's tech plus emotional boosts, it is at the very least greater than that of the Imperium.

Current Stats:

1st Eldar
2nd Necrons/Chaos
3rd Tau/Humans
4th Tyranids
5th Orks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Although I would also inquire as to the half life of Necron living metal. The idea that their bodies stayed around for 300,000 years is just baffling... Matter does not work that way, but then we could also imply Necron magic is at play again so...

300,000? You mean Sixty Million?

... Baffling... This is what I mean about hating GW writers, they are so insanely lazy in the way they approach giving tech to species. They never tried to learn a single scientific theory. But as I said, this is a conversation about who is most advanced according to the fluff not according to current science.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I might even argue Chaos's Transportation is equal to Humanity's, after all they have human ships...

Speaking of transportation

Transportation: 4 (Mastery of FTL and time make long distance travel easy, and can use pocket dimensions)

How can you rate the Necrons a 4, while giving the Eldar a 5?

Necrons actually have the most reliable form of transportation in the galaxy.

Necrons ships were actually able to touch down on mars before getting destroyed.

Their transportation does not rely on the warp, which is huge. Even the Webway is shattered and splintered, with all kinds of horrors. Not to mention, the Necrons have Webway Access as well..

Not to mention their teleportation, etc etc.

Necrons have the widest variety, as well as the best methods of transportation in the galaxy. That should easily be a 5.

 Sasori wrote:
Speaking of transportation

Transportation: 4 (Mastery of FTL and time make long distance travel easy, and can use pocket dimensions)

How can you rate the Necrons a 4, while giving the Eldar a 5?

Necrons actually have the most reliable form of transportation in the galaxy.

Necrons ships were actually able to touch down on mars before getting destroyed.

Their transportation does not rely on the warp, which is huge. Even the Webway is shattered and splintered, with all kinds of horrors. Not to mention, the Necrons have Webway Access as well..

Not to mention their teleportation, etc etc.

Necrons have the widest variety, as well as the best methods of transportation in the galaxy. That should easily be a 5.

Please describe the actual tech they have, no one has given me a good description, only made statements. Do they have access to the Webway in the same way as the Eldar? Can they enter it at will? Or do they need Gates at specific locations to do so? What is it that makes their transportation so reliable? I am more than willing to upgrade them with sufficient information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a quote from the 5th ed codex about those gates.

The remaining Dolmen Gates only grant access to a small portion of the Webway, with much of the network being sealed by the Eldar to prevent further contamination. Despite this being the case, the immeasurable length of the sundered Webway does allow the Necrons to outpace the modes of travel used by the younger races. As they are bereft of Psykers, the Necrons rely on this method of transportation as they are incapable of Warp travel. Thus, if they were denied the use of the Webway, the Necrons would be forced to make use of slow moving stasis-ships that would doom their civilization to isolation.

They also have great engines, but they are not described in depth anywhere I can find. The Inertialess Drive sounds great, but I can find nothing on it other than it allows them to perform interstellar travel.

Please describe the actual tech they have, no one has given me a good description, only made statements. Do they have access to the Webway in the same way as the Eldar? Can they enter it at will? Or do they need Gates at specific locations to do so? What is it that makes their transportation so reliable? I am more than willing to upgrade them with sufficient information.

Dolmen Gates, which are Necron-built Webway portals that can move materials and soldiers across the Galaxy in the blink of an eye. They utilize the remaining sections of the Web-Way that the Eldar have not yet sealed, or have been unable to seal. It's basically a Web-Way gate that runs on the power of Science! rather than Eldar Brain-Magic.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Speaking of transportation

Transportation: 4 (Mastery of FTL and time make long distance travel easy, and can use pocket dimensions)

How can you rate the Necrons a 4, while giving the Eldar a 5?

Necrons actually have the most reliable form of transportation in the galaxy.

Necrons ships were actually able to touch down on mars before getting destroyed.

Their transportation does not rely on the warp, which is huge. Even the Webway is shattered and splintered, with all kinds of horrors. Not to mention, the Necrons have Webway Access as well..

Not to mention their teleportation, etc etc.

Necrons have the widest variety, as well as the best methods of transportation in the galaxy. That should easily be a 5.

Please describe the actual tech they have, no one has given me a good description, only made statements. Do they have access to the Webway in the same way as the Eldar? Can they enter it at will? Or do they need Gates at specific locations to do so? What is it that makes their transportation so reliable? I am more than willing to upgrade them with sufficient information.

Any method that fully relies on the warp or the Webway, is flawed. Warp Travel has many perils, but so does the Webway. The Webway is broken, splintered and fractured compared to what it once was. So it is also quite dangerous and unreliable. Unless you're a Harlequin. You also can't just enter the Webway from anywhere.

Necrons can enter the Webway Via Dolmen Gates. There is not a lot of fluff on this, but it does appear to be more limited than the Webway travel of Eldar. These appear to be at fixed locations, but keep in mind that the Necron Empire was galaxy spanning, so that is not really a huge deal.

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

So, not only do the Necrons have the best FTL travel, but they have much more in the form of their teleportation and dimensional mastery.

True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

though the Webway still connects many Eldar worlds and Craftworlds to one another, the baleful energies of the Fall have ruptured its hyperspatial pathways in countless places. Amongst the Webway's shattered and treacherous tendrils there are many byways, dead ends and mazes that can entrap the unwary. Some lead to places long since abandoned or destroyed, or else now inhabited by the daemons of the Warp.

There you go.

Really man, all of this is on google...

Here is a Lexicanium link for the Interia-less drives.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inertialess_Drive#.UyyKbPldV2M

Inertialess Drives are propulsion systems used by the Necron Fleet that are capable of interstellar travel without the need to enter into the Warp.[1]

Well, I think Tau has the most potential. Eldar is a dying race. Maybe Nids would be a contender.

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

though the Webway still connects many Eldar worlds and Craftworlds to one another, the baleful energies of the Fall have ruptured its hyperspatial pathways in countless places. Amongst the Webway's shattered and treacherous tendrils there are many byways, dead ends and mazes that can entrap the unwary. Some lead to places long since abandoned or destroyed, or else now inhabited by the daemons of the Warp.

There you go.

Really man, all of this is on google...

Here is a Lexicanium link for the Interia-less drives.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inertialess_Drive#.UyyKbPldV2M

Inertialess Drives are propulsion systems used by the Necron Fleet that are capable of interstellar travel without the need to enter into the Warp.[1]

Your cited information on the webway is helpful, but then the Eldar have maps and whatnot don't they... They also have Warp travel... As for the Inertialess Drive nothing ther mentions its capabilities other than mentioning it is FTL... so is Warp... So this is less than impressive. Also I found this:

Prior to the release of the Necron fifth-edition codex, inertialess drive was the means of FTL travel used by the Necron warships of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Among the many changes which this codex brought to the Necrons' backstory was the retconning out of existence of any form of starship-based FTL travel for the Necron fleet.

So according to current Necron fluff they don't even have FTL only the few webway gates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will leave their transportation tech at a four however because of their many other cool tech.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

"Faith and Fire" and "Hammer and Anvil" have Necrons as the primary antagonist, and features all kinds of Science! tomfoolery by the robo-mummies. where armies are walking in and out of Dolmen Gates from a fleet half a galaxy away (only mentioned in the books, does not make an appearance).

Since the protagonists are Sisters of Battle, it doesn't delve too deeply into the tech behind the Gates (as the Sisters don't have a background that would permit them to figure it out), but we get a few bits of narrative-insight as to how they work.

Outside of the Dolmen Gates, their inertialess starship drives permit travel speeds far in excess of the speed of light, and do not utilize the Warp at all.

They no longer have the Inertialess drive as of 5th edition as previously stated.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

though the Webway still connects many Eldar worlds and Craftworlds to one another, the baleful energies of the Fall have ruptured its hyperspatial pathways in countless places. Amongst the Webway's shattered and treacherous tendrils there are many byways, dead ends and mazes that can entrap the unwary. Some lead to places long since abandoned or destroyed, or else now inhabited by the daemons of the Warp.

There you go.

Really man, all of this is on google...

Here is a Lexicanium link for the Interia-less drives.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inertialess_Drive#.UyyKbPldV2M

Inertialess Drives are propulsion systems used by the Necron Fleet that are capable of interstellar travel without the need to enter into the Warp.[1]

Your cited information on the webway is helpful, but then the Eldar have maps and whatnot don't they... They also have Warp travel... As for the Inertialess Drive nothing ther mentions its capabilities other than mentioning it is FTL... so is Warp... So this is less than impressive. Also I found this:

Prior to the release of the Necron fifth-edition codex, inertialess drive was the means of FTL travel used by the Necron warships of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Among the many changes which this codex brought to the Necrons' backstory was the retconning out of existence of any form of starship-based FTL travel for the Necron fleet.

So according to current Necron fluff they don't even have FTL only the few webway gates.

That was Retconned, when the Fall of Orpheus re-introduced the Necron Fleet and it's Interta-less drive, which comes after the 5th edition Codex.

Honestly, you just can't get all of your information from the Lexi. It's limited, and often has erroneous information in it. You seriously need to at least read all of the codexes, before trying to really have a major fluff discussion like this.

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

though the Webway still connects many Eldar worlds and Craftworlds to one another, the baleful energies of the Fall have ruptured its hyperspatial pathways in countless places. Amongst the Webway's shattered and treacherous tendrils there are many byways, dead ends and mazes that can entrap the unwary. Some lead to places long since abandoned or destroyed, or else now inhabited by the daemons of the Warp.

There you go.

Really man, all of this is on google...

Here is a Lexicanium link for the Interia-less drives.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inertialess_Drive#.UyyKbPldV2M

Inertialess Drives are propulsion systems used by the Necron Fleet that are capable of interstellar travel without the need to enter into the Warp.[1]

Your cited information on the webway is helpful, but then the Eldar have maps and whatnot don't they... They also have Warp travel... As for the Inertialess Drive nothing ther mentions its capabilities other than mentioning it is FTL... so is Warp... So this is less than impressive. Also I found this:

Prior to the release of the Necron fifth-edition codex, inertialess drive was the means of FTL travel used by the Necron warships of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Among the many changes which this codex brought to the Necrons' backstory was the retconning out of existence of any form of starship-based FTL travel for the Necron fleet.

So according to current Necron fluff they don't even have FTL only the few webway gates.

That was Retconned, when the Fall of Orpheus re-introduced the Necron Fleet and it's Interta-less drive, which comes after the 5th edition Codex.

Honestly, you just can't get all of your information from the Lexi. It's limited, and often has erroneous information in it. You seriously need to at least read all of the codexes, before trying to really have a major fluff discussion like this.

Inertialess drives are weird. While still FTL, they obviously have limitations so they can't replace the Dolman Gates.

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

though the Webway still connects many Eldar worlds and Craftworlds to one another, the baleful energies of the Fall have ruptured its hyperspatial pathways in countless places. Amongst the Webway's shattered and treacherous tendrils there are many byways, dead ends and mazes that can entrap the unwary. Some lead to places long since abandoned or destroyed, or else now inhabited by the daemons of the Warp.

There you go.

Really man, all of this is on google...

Here is a Lexicanium link for the Interia-less drives.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inertialess_Drive#.UyyKbPldV2M

Inertialess Drives are propulsion systems used by the Necron Fleet that are capable of interstellar travel without the need to enter into the Warp.[1]

Your cited information on the webway is helpful, but then the Eldar have maps and whatnot don't they... They also have Warp travel... As for the Inertialess Drive nothing ther mentions its capabilities other than mentioning it is FTL... so is Warp... So this is less than impressive. Also I found this:

Prior to the release of the Necron fifth-edition codex, inertialess drive was the means of FTL travel used by the Necron warships of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Among the many changes which this codex brought to the Necrons' backstory was the retconning out of existence of any form of starship-based FTL travel for the Necron fleet.

So according to current Necron fluff they don't even have FTL only the few webway gates.

That was Retconned, when the Fall of Orpheus re-introduced the Necron Fleet and it's Interta-less drive, which comes after the 5th edition Codex.

Honestly, you just can't get all of your information from the Lexi. It's limited, and often has erroneous information in it. You seriously need to at least read all of the codexes, before trying to really have a major fluff discussion like this.

Or I could save money and have experts on different races help me come to a consensus. You are clearly an expert on the Necrons, I only claim to be a Tau expert. So as of now I can only make claims of knowing for a fact things about the tau. Though I see no reason to include the Inertialess Drive as a means of travel faster than warp or webway travel I am willing to say Necrons and Eldar now tie for first if it will help aliviate what seems to be becoming a heated discussion. I mean only to intellectually examine the fluff to come to a consensus not to insult or belittle anyone for any reason, after all we are talking about fluff for a board game written by dozens of men that don't read each other's work, and lack any knowledge of a single scholarly discipline. It isn't like we are talking about anything concrete here.

I was originally just trying to find out what people thought of as an advanced society. I have since discovered the modern human's preoccupation with metal machines and electronics as a definition of advancement, and their close mindedness at viewing biological advancements or even arts and literature as a means of becoming superior to other species in any way.

Now I am only attempting to create an objective system by which to scale civilizations on their level of achievement thus far, using our silly little game as a guinea pig to achieve this. It is my intention to make everyone here happy and reach a ranking system we can all agree with, not to tell you you are wrong.

Now if you can copy word for word from any text sponsored by GW hinting that the Inertialess Drive is faster than warp travel I will rank them equal to Eldar in an instant. That is all I am asking, and this does not seem to be a ridiculous request.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Ah awesome, thought you were working towards a 5 with your description of the weighting system.
I also agree on the point that Tyranids have no social structure, they're just animals.

I think you will be hard pressed to describe Tyranids as "Simply animals."

The only reason I rate the Hive Mind as a one for culture is the fact that it is, but one entity. Pre-Hive Mind I imagine the Nids as one of the most advanced species one could imagine. The entire species developed such a strong co-existence and lack of care for their individual well being that they are willing to die at any time to allow others to be born in their stead. Also we have the Hive Mind itself to consider, again a super internet that allows each of the larger creatures to instantly transfer commands, thoughts, and even feelings to other bugs over vast ranges. This is by no means a lack of cultural interaction, but rather the most in depth and complex form of culture one could imagine. If it were not for their single entity status I would count the Nids as a five on my rubric.

If this still seems to difficult to accept, they regularly travel from galaxy to galaxy, and as others have said they do this while dormant. Please go forth and look up the physics equation to calculate where a galaxy will be at a given time millions of years from now based on its gravitational interactions with its local group and your own interaction with fluctuating gravitational systems on your way there. Do this then come back and say they are mindless animals... Because I find that to be the most incredulous statement one could make.

When I think of Tyranids I imagine a big kid playing with toys. The toys don't have any emotions or feelings, the kid is always in control at all times, despite how sentient the toys may seem to be to another toy... Am I making sense?

But the kid is not only in control, but has a level of control of the toys like they were extensions of his body.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
.... Necrons are older than the Ruinous Powers. They predate anything someone from M41 would recognize as being of the Warp.

They predate the eye of terror maybe, but the Warp was always there, waiting.

But not in the state that it is now. What the Immaterium is in M41 is nothing at all like it was in M-6000, which is when the Necrons were doing their thing.

 Tyran wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

though the Webway still connects many Eldar worlds and Craftworlds to one another, the baleful energies of the Fall have ruptured its hyperspatial pathways in countless places. Amongst the Webway's shattered and treacherous tendrils there are many byways, dead ends and mazes that can entrap the unwary. Some lead to places long since abandoned or destroyed, or else now inhabited by the daemons of the Warp.

There you go.

Really man, all of this is on google...

Here is a Lexicanium link for the Interia-less drives.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inertialess_Drive#.UyyKbPldV2M

Inertialess Drives are propulsion systems used by the Necron Fleet that are capable of interstellar travel without the need to enter into the Warp.[1]

Your cited information on the webway is helpful, but then the Eldar have maps and whatnot don't they... They also have Warp travel... As for the Inertialess Drive nothing ther mentions its capabilities other than mentioning it is FTL... so is Warp... So this is less than impressive. Also I found this:

Prior to the release of the Necron fifth-edition codex, inertialess drive was the means of FTL travel used by the Necron warships of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Among the many changes which this codex brought to the Necrons' backstory was the retconning out of existence of any form of starship-based FTL travel for the Necron fleet.

So according to current Necron fluff they don't even have FTL only the few webway gates.

That was Retconned, when the Fall of Orpheus re-introduced the Necron Fleet and it's Interta-less drive, which comes after the 5th edition Codex.

Honestly, you just can't get all of your information from the Lexi. It's limited, and often has erroneous information in it. You seriously need to at least read all of the codexes, before trying to really have a major fluff discussion like this.

Inertialess drives are weird. While still FTL, they obviously have limitations so they can't replace the Dolman Gates.

The Dolmen gates are likely better suited for vehicles that don't have FTL travel, such as the Nightscythe. The interita-less drives are mounted on the actual Starships of the Necron Navy.

 Psienesis wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
.... Necrons are older than the Ruinous Powers. They predate anything someone from M41 would recognize as being of the Warp.

They predate the eye of terror maybe, but the Warp was always there, waiting.

But not in the state that it is now. What the Immaterium is in M41 is nothing at all like it was in M-6000, which is when the Necrons were doing their thing.

I already retracted this statement sir.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Ah awesome, thought you were working towards a 5 with your description of the weighting system.
I also agree on the point that Tyranids have no social structure, they're just animals.

I think you will be hard pressed to describe Tyranids as "Simply animals."

The only reason I rate the Hive Mind as a one for culture is the fact that it is, but one entity. Pre-Hive Mind I imagine the Nids as one of the most advanced species one could imagine. The entire species developed such a strong co-existence and lack of care for their individual well being that they are willing to die at any time to allow others to be born in their stead. Also we have the Hive Mind itself to consider, again a super internet that allows each of the larger creatures to instantly transfer commands, thoughts, and even feelings to other bugs over vast ranges. This is by no means a lack of cultural interaction, but rather the most in depth and complex form of culture one could imagine. If it were not for their single entity status I would count the Nids as a five on my rubric.

If this still seems to difficult to accept, they regularly travel from galaxy to galaxy, and as others have said they do this while dormant. Please go forth and look up the physics equation to calculate where a galaxy will be at a given time millions of years from now based on its gravitational interactions with its local group and your own interaction with fluctuating gravitational systems on your way there. Do this then come back and say they are mindless animals... Because I find that to be the most incredulous statement one could make.

The Tyranids are incredibly intelligent, that's obvius.

Also I see the Tyranids as always being a Hive Mind and that they evolved from a planet sized Hive Mind (Like Eywa from Avatar, those blue cat people are essentially protonids to me).
Also the Tyranids aren't a species, they are a gigantic spaceborne ecosystem that consumes other ecosystems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:



The Dolmen gates are likely better suited for vehicles that don't have FTL travel, such as the Nightscythe. The interita-less drives are mounted on the actual Starships of the Necron Navy.

While IA 12 gives the Necrons back their Inertialess drive it doesn't overrides the fact that the Necrons depend on the Dolman Gates for large scale FTL.

While IA 12 gives the Necrons back their Inertialess drive it doesn't overrides the fact that the Necrons depend on the Dolman Gates for large scale FTL.

The fact that they were able to conquer an entire sector, without the mention of using the Dolmen Gates, seems to contradict this.

 Sasori wrote:

While IA 12 gives the Necrons back their Inertialess drive it doesn't overrides the fact that the Necrons depend on the Dolman Gates for large scale FTL.

The fact that they were able to conquer an entire sector, without the mention of using the Dolmen Gates, seems to contradict this.

A sector is incredibly small compared to the galaxy.

 Tyran wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

While IA 12 gives the Necrons back their Inertialess drive it doesn't overrides the fact that the Necrons depend on the Dolman Gates for large scale FTL.

The fact that they were able to conquer an entire sector, without the mention of using the Dolmen Gates, seems to contradict this.

A sector is incredibly small compared to the galaxy.

We don't have enough data to conclusively say the the Dolmen gates are actually needed at this point.

It's really a case of inconsistent fluff writing. It's pretty clear that the Starfleet was initially meant to be retconned, and the Dolman gates as their primary method of FTL but after their reintroduction of the Starfleet, it really makes the Dolmen Gates, pretty worthless, as the Fleet appears to be able to do everything it could and more. We don't have any kind of data on teleportation ranges, so with the Fleet being able to beam in it's attack force now, it really does make the Dolmen gates second rate.

Jancoran, Murdius Maximus: I'm getting a drink. You guys want anything while I'm up?

Really, the in world truth of the matter is clear. As we have sources that state that the Inertialess Drive allows pinpoint FTL travel with instantaneous maneuverability, and we have sources that state that the Dolmen Gates allow the Necrons to utilize the webway, clearly the Dolmen Gates are relics of a bygone age from before the Inertialess Drive was perfected.

From an out of world point of view, the truth is this: Matt Ward has not read the Battlefleet Gothic rules for Necron fleets, and does not refer to his own notes when writing. Otherwise, he would have realised that the Necrons having a galaxy-spanning empire before they ever encountered the Eldar, whilst still relying on Eldar technology to traverse it, simply does not work.

Current Standings, which I find odd, but perhaps this will alleviate some of the tension in the thread.

1st: Eldar/Necrons
2nd: Chaos
3rd. Humanity/Tau
4th: Tyraninds
5th: Orks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if anyone can provide actual word for word evidence for the supposed faster than warp ability of the Inertialess Drive I would be forever grateful.

From the BFG rules:

INERTIALESS DRIVE
Necron drives are capable of interstellar travel
without the need to enter the Warp. The drive is
fired whenever All Ahead Full orders are issued;
instead of obeying the normal rules for this
order the ship gains D6 x 10cm additional
movement and can make a turn for every 20cm
it travels.

Yep, BFG has all the data on Necron starships you need.
There's even a bit of info on them in the 3rd ed dex, iirc.

 Happyjew wrote:
From the BFG rules:

INERTIALESS DRIVE
Necron drives are capable of interstellar travel
without the need to enter the Warp. The drive is
fired whenever All Ahead Full orders are issued;
instead of obeying the normal rules for this
order the ship gains D6 x 10cm additional
movement and can make a turn for every 20cm
it travels.

Is this faster than warp travel? I mean does BFG have warp travel rules?

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
From the BFG rules:

INERTIALESS DRIVE
Necron drives are capable of interstellar travel
without the need to enter the Warp. The drive is
fired whenever All Ahead Full orders are issued;
instead of obeying the normal rules for this
order the ship gains D6 x 10cm additional
movement and can make a turn for every 20cm
it travels.

Is this faster than warp travel? I mean does BFG have warp travel rules?

Everything on BFG can be found here

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480005a&categoryId=6700003a§ion=&aId=21500018a

Including Necron rules.

Considering how necron ships appear to be faster than even Eldar ships (Necron cruisers can move 30cm per turn, where as Cruisers can only move up to 25cm), that's saying something.

Also, if they are capable of entering interstellar travel without needing to enter the warp, that would imply that they can move fast enough to not have to rely on the warp to get anywhere.

No clue. I saw you asked about Inertialess Drives, and that was all I could find.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
From the BFG rules:

INERTIALESS DRIVE
Necron drives are capable of interstellar travel
without the need to enter the Warp. The drive is
fired whenever All Ahead Full orders are issued;
instead of obeying the normal rules for this
order the ship gains D6 x 10cm additional
movement and can make a turn for every 20cm
it travels.

Is this faster than warp travel? I mean does BFG have warp travel rules?

Everything on BFG can be found here

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480005a&categoryId=6700003a§ion=&aId=21500018a

Including Necron rules.

Considering how necron ships appear to be faster than even Eldar ships (Necron cruisers can move 30cm per turn, where as Cruisers can only move up to 25cm), that's saying something.

Also, if they are capable of entering interstellar travel without needing to enter the warp, that would imply that they can move fast enough to not have to rely on the warp to get anywhere.

Speed outside of battle is what I am looking for, for instance one would not fight a battle at warp. I want to know whether their ships would win in a race across our galaxy against the Eldar if the points for the start and finish were random.

That...is a good question. There is not any exact data about the speed of the Webway or Necron Intialess drives. The best answer I can give you is "fast enough to not lose a war"

Doesn't "intertialess travel" imply either exactly speed of light or faster than light travel in general sci-fi terms?

Web way doesn't travel parallel to Realspace. It's not a factor of distance. Comparing the two in that way won't do any good.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Doesn't "intertialess travel" imply either exactly speed of light or faster than light travel in general sci-fi terms?

Usually, yes. That's still pretty vague though.

Bharring wrote:
Web way doesn't travel parallel to Realspace. It's not a factor of distance. Comparing the two in that way won't do any good.

The goal is to figure out total travel time, not top speed.

 Happyjew wrote:
From the BFG rules:

INERTIALESS DRIVE
Necron drives are capable of interstellar travel
without the need to enter the Warp. The drive is
fired whenever All Ahead Full orders are issued;
instead of obeying the normal rules for this
order the ship gains D6 x 10cm additional
movement and can make a turn for every 20cm
it travels.

That only tell us that they have a non warp based FTL, not that it is faster. Although they can use it for pinpoint jumps in the middle of a battle.
In this moment my personal theory is inertialess drives for pinpoint jumps and short range FTL while Dolmen Gates for larger distances.

My point is that you can't. It depends on the locations of web way portals.

Warp is only frequently "faster than light". Other times? You never come out at all.... or you come out five thousand years later than you expected to arrive. Or you come out before you left.

And sometimes? When you come out, it is better that you had never been born.