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Post by: NuggzTheNinja
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/04/17/jews-ordered-to-register-in-east-ukraine/7816951/
Jews in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk where pro-Russian militants have taken over government buildings were told they have to "register" with the Ukrainians who are trying to make the city become part of Russia, according to Ukrainian and Israeli media.
Jews emerging from a synagogue say they were handed leaflets that ordered the city's Jews to provide a list of property they own and pay a registration fee "or else have their citizenship revoked, face deportation and see their assets confiscated," reported Ynet News, Israel's largest news website.
Sounds like it's time to start killing people (in East Ukraine, obviously).
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Post by: dementedwombat
Spoilered for excessive size.
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Post by: Fafnir
And on the list of things not to do to make your actions seem socially respectable...
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Post by: Medium of Death
Jews in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk where pro-Russian militants have taken over government buildings were told they have to "register" with the Ukrainians who are trying to make the city become part of Russia, according to Ukrainian and Israeli media.
Jews emerging from a synagogue say they were handed leaflets that ordered the city's Jews to provide a list of property they own and pay a registration fee "or else have their citizenship revoked, face deportation and see their assets confiscated," reported Ynet News, Israel's largest news website.
Donetsk is the site of an "anti-terrorist" operation by the Ukraine government, which has moved military columns into the region to force out militants who are demanding a referendum be held on joining Russia. The news was carried first by the Ukraine's Donbass news agency.
The leaflets bore the name of Denis Pushilin, who identified himself as chairman of "Donetsk's temporary government," and were distributed near the Donetsk synagogue and other areas, according to the reports.
Pushilin acknowledged that fliers were distributed under his organization's name in Donetsk but denied any connection to them, Ynet reported in Hebrew.
Emanuel Shechter, in Israel, told Ynet his friends in Donetsk sent him a copy of the leaflet through social media.
"They told me that masked men were waiting for Jewish people after the Passover eve prayer, handed them the flier and told them to obey its instructions," he said.
The leaflet begins, "Dear Ukraine citizens of Jewish nationality," and states that all people of Jewish descent over 16 years old must report to the Commissioner for Nationalities in the Donetsk Regional Administration building and "register."
It says the reason is because the leaders of the Jewish community of Ukraine supported Bendery Junta, a reference to Stepan Bandera, the leader of the Ukrainian nationalist movement that fought for Ukrainian independence at the end of World War II, "and oppose the pro-Slavic People's Republic of Donetsk," a name adopted by the militant leadership.
The leaflet then described which documents Jews should provide: "ID and passport are required to register your Jewish religion, religious documents of family members, as well as documents establishing the rights to all real estate property that belongs to you, including vehicles."
Consequences for non-compliance will result in citizenship being revoked "and you will be forced outside the country with a confiscation of property." A registration fee of $50 would be required, it said.
Olga Reznikova, 32, a Jewish resident of Donetsk, told Ynet she never experienced anti-Semitism in the city until she saw this leaflet.
"We don't know if these notifications were distributed by pro-Russian activists or someone else, but it's serious that it exists," she said. "The text reminds of the fascists in 1941," she said referring to the Nazis who occupied Ukraine during World War II.
The Jewish community in Donetsk issued in a statement saying the flyers distribution "smells like a provocation."
"Who is behind this is an open question," Rabbi Pinkhas Vishedski said in the statement, according to CNN. Vishedski said they are a provocation "and should be treated accordingly ... full stop and end of topic."
Morton Klein, president of the Zionist Organization of America, the oldest pro-Israel group in the USA, said the leaflets should be seen in the context of a rising tide of anti-Semitism across Europe and the world, and that it should prompt a strong response from the White House.
"This is a frightening new development in the anti-Jewish movement that is gaining traction around the world," Klein said.
U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt called the leaflets "the real deal," and not representative of the Ukraine's government in Kiev.
Secretary of State John Kerry called the incident "grotesque."
"It is beyond unacceptable," Kerry said. "And any of the people who engage in these kinds of activities — from whatever party or whatever ideology or whatever place they crawl out of — there is no place for that."
Kerry participated Thursday in a conference on the Ukraine crisis with his counterparts from Russia, Ukraine and the European Union. The parties issued a statement saying "The participants strongly condemned and rejected all expressions of extremism, racism and religious intolerance, including anti-semitism."
Michael Salberg, director of the international affairs at the New York City-based Anti-Defamation League, said it's unclear whether the leaflets were issued by the pro-Russian leadership or a splinter group operating within the pro-Russian camp.
But the Russian side has used the specter of anti-Semitism in a cynical manner since anti-government protests began in Kiev that resulted in the ousting of Ukraine's pro-Russian former president Viktor Yanukovych. Russia and its allies in Ukraine issued multiple stories about the the threat posed to Jews by Ukraine's new pro-Western government in Kiev, Salberg said.
Those stories were based in part on ultra-nationalists who joined the Maidan protests, and the inclusion of the ultra-nationalist Svoboda party in Ukraine's new interim government. But the threat turned out to be false, he said.
Svoboda's leadership needs to be monitored, but so far it has refrained from anti-Semitic statements since joining the government, he said. And the prevalence of anti-Semitic acts has not changed since before the Maidan protests, according to the ADL and the Ukrainian Helsinki Human Rights Union, which monitors human rights in Ukraine.
Distributing such leaflets is a recruitment tool to appeal to the xenophobic fears of the majority, "to enlist them to your cause and focus on a common enemy, the Jews," Salberg said.
And by targeting Donetsk's Jews, they also send a message to all the region's residents, Salberg said.
"The message is a message to all the people that is we're going to exert our power over you," he said. "Jews are the default scapegoat throughout history for despots to send a message to the general public: Don't step out of line."
Pretty crazy.
Kristallnacht 2: Electric Boogaloo coming to Ukraine this Summer.
"This is a frightening new development in the anti-Jewish movement that is gaining traction around the world," Klein said
I will have to call BS on that though. What world wide anti-Jewish movement is that? The one that's against Israel? A state, not a people. People don't dislike Israel for being Jewish, they dislike Israel because they do dickish things and should know better.
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Post by: PrehistoricUFO
Read about this early this morning. Chilling stuff, it's like the events preceding Babi Yar all over again, in the same damn country too.
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Post by: poppa G
Ah damn, I was seconds away from posting this, ya beat me. Anyways, I had no idea there were still so many anti-Jews around.
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Post by: Ahtman
Well between this and the shootings in Florida this has turned out to be quite a week for our Jewish brothers and sisters.
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Post by: MWHistorian
A rising totalitarian Russian Empire bent on expansion?
I'm shocked that this is turning out bad. Shocked I say!
But don't worry. I'm sure their thirst for expansion is sated.
Right?
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Post by: Daemonhammer
This is a bit off topic, but nobody ever mentions how in early 1939 the Ukrainians commited mass genocides upon the Polish minority (which was around 20% at the time) in the name of nationalism, so they would have no problem in doing that to the Jews.
You cant blame everything on the Russians, a lot of the stuff in Ukraine is (unsuprisingly) their own doing.
As a side note the city of Kiev was mentioned to be the birthplace of what is now the Russian Orthodox church, which is not exacly well know for tolerance.
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Post by: Orlanth
When Putin outsourced the takeover of Ukraine to local militias he ran the risk of unleashing fanatics.
Putin is dangerous, but he is not stupid. He clearly didn't ask for this.
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Post by: Wyrmalla
Ironic with the Russians using the ultra nationalist/fascist elements of the Ukrainian government as a way to stir up trouble in the region...
Meh, I guess Israel'll happily take on some more immigrants. There's already a large Eastern European population there, and its not as if they're friends with the Russians in any case. =P
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Post by: Palindrome
Daemonhammer wrote:This is a bit off topic, but nobody ever mentions how in early 1939 the Ukrainians committed mass genocides upon the Polish minority (which was around 20% at the time) in the name of nationalism, so they would have no problem in doing that to the Jews.
Because events 75 years ago are obviously going to be repeated simply because they occurred in the same country. A firm grip on reality is a wonderful thing.
Russia's insistence that Ukraine is run by fascists and bandits is becoming dangerously close to satire. Automatically Appended Next Post: [quote=Orlanth 590491 6738028 59b90e1005a220e2ebc542eb9d950b1e.jpg
Putin is dangerous, but he is not stupid. He clearly didn't ask for this.
He should have briefed the Russian 'volunteers' more thoroughly before he sent them over the border.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
There are some anti-semitic events taking place in France, I see it in the news from time to time.
But honestly, even in Quebec, where the most overtly Jewish people are Hassidim, people use racial slurs openly and are shocked that anyone might be offended. There had to be an intervention at the beginning of my third internship (teaching) because the grade 11 classes weren't having it that "A Gay Jew" was teaching them anything at all. I'm neither gay nor Jewish, but they felt comfortable enough voicing it *loudly* to my face when they thought I was.
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Post by: Fafnir
Jesus Christ, those kids sound like monsters.
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Post by: daedalus
Insert stereotype about French Canada.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
 Medium of Death wrote:People don't dislike Israel for being Jewish, they dislike Israel because they do dickish things and should know better.
Well, actually a bunch of people dislike Israel for being Jewish, another bunch of them dislike it for doing what they think is dickish things, and I am pretty sure the huge majority of people that dislike Israel actually never gave it a second thought, and just followed the flow.
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Post by: Ahtman
Yeah, but those people aren't worth listening to.
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Post by: Medium of Death
It's hardly the whole world though, as the article implies.
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
So putin is one of the Boys from Brazil? Going back to the "good old days"?
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Post by: Ouze
This is a very worrying development.
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Post by: Andrew1975
"The flyers were official-looking documents that carried what was presented as Pushilin’s signature, but the news site tvrain.ru on Wednesday quoted Pushilin as denying any connection to the flyers, calling them a provocation."
"In an interview with Ukrainian press, Pushilin confirmed that the flyers, marked with the emblem of his organization, were really distributed in Donetsk. But unlike various English translations, in the original interview with Ukrainian media, Pushilin not only rejected the content of the flyers, but also denied that his organization was behind their printing. “Some idiots yesterday were giving out these flyers in targeted areas,” he said, claiming that he had never himself used the “people’s governor” title the flyer bestows on him. Pushilin did not suggest who else may have been handing out the anti-Semetic flyers, but went on to criticize the original site for posting it online. "
This is what I find fishy about this situation. I have read about 10 different articles...they all tell a different story. The sheet has a signature, the sheet doesn't have a signature, Pushlin acknowledges, Pushlin has no idea. All the accounts have different FACTS.....which is just very odd.
I'm calling Shenanigans.
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Post by: Jihadin
I highly doubt Putin running these type of groups.
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Post by: Relapse
 MWHistorian wrote:A rising totalitarian Russian Empire bent on expansion?
I'm shocked that this is turning out bad. Shocked I say!
But don't worry. I'm sure their thirst for expansion is sated.
Right?
Call out The Light Brigade!
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Post by: whembly
I still maintain that it's a false flag by Ukrainian nationalists designed to make the Putinistas look bad...
Sneaky basterds... effective so far...
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Post by: Jihadin
Russian bear about to take another bite out of Ukraine.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
Medium of Death wrote:....
"This is a frightening new development in the anti-Jewish movement that is gaining traction around the world," Klein said
I will have to call BS on that though. What world wide anti-Jewish movement is that? The one that's against Israel? A state, not a people. People don't dislike Israel for being Jewish, they dislike Israel because they do dickish things and should know better.
Yeah... uh, there has kinda been a pronounced uptick in violence against Jews and antisemitism (q.v. " Global Antisemitism Rises by 30%").
Put another way, it is no academic disagreement with the policies of Israel that made the (non-Jewish) author of this piece feel in a Swedish city, well...
I've lived in Malmö for almost two years and in that time there have been numerous shootings and violent crimes. As an Irish person abroad I've never felt remotely threatened but wearing the kippah for a few hours was enough to instill feelings of fear. Even when I didn't feel afraid I was made to feel different and unwelcome.
Read the whole thing, and ponder the update at the end: of the three Jews identified in the piece, one had to have his name changed for protection. Not because he is a criminal, but because in Malmö, some Jews can only feel safe if no one knows they are a Jew.
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Post by: Jihadin
I believe Re-Education camps are in order. 24/7 of Barney songs, Disney movies, arts & crafts, and mandatory pink uniforms....wait....
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Post by: Seaward
Why does the OP include a picture of James "Parking Brake" Yeager?
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Post by: motyak
 Jihadin wrote:I believe Re-Education camps are in order. 24/7 of Barney songs, Disney movies, arts & crafts, and mandatory pink uniforms....wait....
You want to send them into the bikie population in Queensland prisons? Why?
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Post by: Jihadin
Some Sheriff in Texas popped in my mind....but I think he has the weather channel...
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Post by: dogma
 Seaward wrote:Why does the OP include a picture of James "Parking Break" Yeager?
I had never heard of this man before, but I'm glad I now know of him. Googling his name has revealed many hilarious things.
 Mathieu Raymond wrote:There are some anti-semitic events taking place in France, I see it in the news from time to time.
Antisemitism in France has been a significant thing since WWII, though I would guess much of the current trend is fueled by increasing levels of xenophobia due to Arab immigration, and the Arab immigrants themselves.
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Post by: Barksdale
I'm calling bs on this. This reeks of a propaganda piece or orchestrated scheme rather than a genuine occurrence. You can smell it 2500 km away here in Luxembourg.
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Post by: Iron_Captain
It definitely bs.
The leaflet uses the wrong stamp, and it identifies Pushilin as 'the people's governor', and according to himself, nobody has ever called him that before, and he isn't even elected as the leaflet claims.
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Post by: NuggzTheNinja
Seaward wrote:Why does the OP include a picture of James "Parking Brake" Yeager?
James "Ditch Diver" Yeager coined the fotime phrase, "It's time to start killing people" during one of his YouTube rants (for which he later apologized after they took away his CCW permit).
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Post by: easysauce
 NuggzTheNinja wrote: Seaward wrote:Why does the OP include a picture of James "Parking Brake" Yeager?
James "Ditch Diver" Yeager coined the fotime phrase, "It's time to start killing people" during one of his YouTube rants (for which he later apologized after they took away his CCW permit).
LOL I thought he was more famous for the footage of him bailing out on the only fire fight hes ever been in.
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Post by: NuggzTheNinja
 easysauce wrote: NuggzTheNinja wrote: Seaward wrote:Why does the OP include a picture of James "Parking Brake" Yeager?
James "Ditch Diver" Yeager coined the fotime phrase, "It's time to start killing people" during one of his YouTube rants (for which he later apologized after they took away his CCW permit).
LOL I thought he was more famous for the footage of him bailing out on the only fire fight hes ever been in.
Hah yeah amongst other things, such as putting his photographer in front of a hot firing line.
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Post by: Hordini
easysauce wrote: NuggzTheNinja wrote: Seaward wrote:Why does the OP include a picture of James "Parking Brake" Yeager?
James "Ditch Diver" Yeager coined the fotime phrase, "It's time to start killing people" during one of his YouTube rants (for which he later apologized after they took away his CCW permit).
LOL I thought he was more famous for the footage of him bailing out on the only fire fight hes ever been in.
To be fair, however you may feel about Yeager, if you pay close attention to the video in question, while he does exit the vehicle and egress to the median, he doesn't actually bail from the firefight. There are some good analysis videos out there that explain it pretty well. The biggest mistake he made is that he exited the car because he thought the vehicle was disabled, when it was actually just in neutral.
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Post by: NuggzTheNinja
 Hordini wrote: easysauce wrote: NuggzTheNinja wrote: Seaward wrote:Why does the OP include a picture of James "Parking Brake" Yeager?
James "Ditch Diver" Yeager coined the fotime phrase, "It's time to start killing people" during one of his YouTube rants (for which he later apologized after they took away his CCW permit).
LOL I thought he was more famous for the footage of him bailing out on the only fire fight hes ever been in.
To be fair, however you may feel about Yeager, if you pay close attention to the video in question, while he does exit the vehicle and egress to the median, he doesn't actually bail from the firefight. There are some good analysis videos out there that explain it pretty well. The biggest mistake he made is that he exited the car because he thought the vehicle was disabled, when it was actually just in neutral.
I don't want to derail this too far, but I will say this having served in the military...
If you're the only person doing the "right thing" and everybody else is doing the "wrong thing," then you're probably doing the wrong thing.
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Post by: ironicsilence
Step 1. Invade foreign country and turn them into a part of your country
Step 2. Force All jews to register
Pretty sure I saw something on the history channel about how this all played out last time....they tried the "ignore it and it will go away" solution back then too....
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Yeah, that is bad! At least when our civilized societies invade foreign countries, we do not pretend they are part of our country. We do put up some puppet government to do our work for us, it is way better!
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Post by: Jihadin
That has to be the dumbest photogapher I have ever seen
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Post by: LordofHats
He used to be a photographer. Then he took a bullet to the knee 
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Post by: Wyrmalla
 ironicsilence wrote:Step 1. Invade foreign country and turn them into a part of your country
Step 2. Force All jews to register
Pretty sure I saw something on the history channel about how this all played out last time....they tried the "ignore it and it will go away" solution back then too....
I suppose threads about Putin's government are just giving themselves the Godwin treatment on their own now without us. Pity. =(
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Post by: Andrew1975
 Wyrmalla wrote: ironicsilence wrote:Step 1. Invade foreign country and turn them into a part of your country
Step 2. Force All jews to register
Pretty sure I saw something on the history channel about how this all played out last time....they tried the "ignore it and it will go away" solution back then too....
I suppose threads about Putin's government are just giving themselves the Godwin treatment on their own now without us. Pity. =(
OR you could just support neo nazis in an attempt to topple a legitimate government with a violent and bloody revolution, fully convinced that if you topple the capital the rest of the country falls in line. When that doesn't happen, blame the country that actually stabilizes the situation by supporting what most of the country really wants in an almost non violent manner. Then spread Nazi type propaganda about them.......and still fail.
This is really one of the most hypocritical actions the west has ever taken.
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Post by: Wyrmalla
Meh, I can't stand Putin's mock government, so I'm biased as hell over this situation. The whole thing's just an exercise in appeasement. If things in Russia don't change sooner or later the West's relations with it are going off a cliff unfortunately (then again, we really don't give two sods about any moral complications when it comes to keeping the peace. As long as nobody's launching nukes and keeping "civilised" the little things can slide in the big picture of things). I suppose the real world isn't a place for idealism, but isn't it nice to at least respect the pretence. =P
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Post by: Jihadin
For the life of me. I have not heard of serious abuse on the Jews in FDR/Russia. I'm under the impression he is totally against anti-semitism.
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Post by: d-usa
Apperantly no group has claimed responsibility and a few Jews that actually reported to the location to find out what is going on just found folks that had no idea what was going on either.
Sounds like either a twisted joke or propaganda.
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Post by: LordofHats
You know someone has balls when they play practical jokes in the middle of the revolution 
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Post by: Hordini
NuggzTheNinja wrote: Hordini wrote: easysauce wrote: NuggzTheNinja wrote: Seaward wrote:Why does the OP include a picture of James "Parking Brake" Yeager?
James "Ditch Diver" Yeager coined the fotime phrase, "It's time to start killing people" during one of his YouTube rants (for which he later apologized after they took away his CCW permit).
LOL I thought he was more famous for the footage of him bailing out on the only fire fight hes ever been in.
To be fair, however you may feel about Yeager, if you pay close attention to the video in question, while he does exit the vehicle and egress to the median, he doesn't actually bail from the firefight. There are some good analysis videos out there that explain it pretty well. The biggest mistake he made is that he exited the car because he thought the vehicle was disabled, when it was actually just in neutral.
I don't want to derail this too far, but I will say this having served in the military...
If you're the only person doing the "right thing" and everybody else is doing the "wrong thing," then you're probably doing the wrong thing.
I get what you're saying, but I don't know that it really applies in this case. Everybody else stayed in or around their soft skinned vehicles which were all sitting in the middle of the kill zone. Yeager is one of the first, if not the first, to return fire. He then egresses to the median, where he has better cover/concealment, and provides security. I'm not saying he does everything right, but I don't think what he did was wrong, nor was it bailing from the fight. He was still perfectly capable of engaging the enemy from the median.
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Post by: Andrew1975
Wyrmalla wrote:Meh, I can't stand Putin's mock government, so I'm biased as hell over this situation. The whole thing's just an exercise in appeasement. If things in Russia don't change sooner or later the West's relations with it are going off a cliff unfortunately (then again, we really don't give two sods about any moral complications when it comes to keeping the peace. As long as nobody's launching nukes and keeping "civilised" the little things can slide in the big picture of things). I suppose the real world isn't a place for idealism, but isn't it nice to at least respect the pretence. =P
OK, I'm still not sure how Russia is labeled the bad guy here. The west over reaches into Russia's back yard and sows the seeds of revolution, Russia keeps said revolution from turning into a Syrian scale civil war, and yet somehow Russia is still the bad guy. This makes sense in what world?
Lets look at the track record and you tell me whose policies need to change. Who in the last 20 years has been traipsing around the entire globe, invading countries (uninvited by the way) and toppling governments by force?
Putin has taken a country that was on the brink of collapse not too long ago and single handedly brought it back to a level of respect. In this same period we have seen Western civilization take a moral, political and economic nose dive.
Sounds like sour grapes laced with hypocrisy to me.
The guy is not perfect, but there are sayings about people in glass houses and cleaning up your own back yard first.
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Post by: Palindrome
 Andrew1975 wrote:
Lets look at the track record and you tell me whose policies need to change. Who in the last 20 years has been traipsing around the entire globe, invading countries (uninvited by the way) and toppling governments by force?
Lots of countries, including Russia. If the west had moved in military forces to protect the Ukrainian people from the now ousted government who had shown few qualms about killing its own people you may have a (small) point. As it is though Russia is sending in troops to protect 'Russian speakers' from so far non existent violence by the Ukrainian government while conveniently destabilising the entire country in the process. They are doing themselves no favours by their almost comical insistence that the new Ukrainian government are fascists and bandits. Crimea was a blatant land grab, although its populations would have moved to join Russia anyway, if Russia had simply waited for a real and genuine referendum rather than one thrown together at short notice then none of the political fallout would have happened. Donetsk is shaping up to be Crimea 2 but with a much smaller pro Russian population.
Putin is trying to resurrect the USSR, albeit on different political lines. The problem is that he also seems to be recreating the some of the critical structural flaws that brought it down in the first place, if (or more likely when) Russia's economy tanks the whole thing may well fall apart.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Andrew1975 wrote: Wyrmalla wrote:Meh, I can't stand Putin's mock government, so I'm biased as hell over this situation. The whole thing's just an exercise in appeasement. If things in Russia don't change sooner or later the West's relations with it are going off a cliff unfortunately (then again, we really don't give two sods about any moral complications when it comes to keeping the peace. As long as nobody's launching nukes and keeping "civilised" the little things can slide in the big picture of things). I suppose the real world isn't a place for idealism, but isn't it nice to at least respect the pretence. =P
OK, I'm still not sure how Russia is labeled the bad guy here. The west over reaches into Russia's back yard and sows the seeds of revolution, Russia keeps said revolution from turning into a Syrian scale civil war, and yet somehow Russia is still the bad guy. This makes sense in what world?
In a world where they take advantage of Ukraine's instability to annex parts of a sovereign nation. For all the bullgak moves the US has made, Afghanistan and Iraq aren't the 51st and 52nd states.
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Post by: Andrew1975
Lots of countries, including Russia.
Really? What countries has Russia taken over that they were not specifically requested by the legitimate government? What areas has Russia taken by force, I mean when people vote to be part of Russia that seams a bit more legitimate than taking over a government through bloody revolution like happened in Kiev.
I can give you a long list of countries the west has invaded and taken over where no requests for help have been made.
if Russia had simply waited for a real and genuine referendum rather than one thrown together at short notice then none of the political fallout would have happened.
Or if the western backed Ukrainian revolutionaries had just waited for the coming elections, we would not be in this affair at all. Unless of course they were afraid they were going to lose those elections, so why go through the process? Easier to just throw they country into a bloody civil war, right?
As it is though Russia is sending in troops to protect 'Russian speakers' from so far non existent violence
So the violent uprising in Kiev that saw more people killed than anything the Russians have done doesn't count?
In a world where they take advantage of Ukraine's instability to annex parts of a sovereign nation. For all the bullgak moves the US has made, Afghanistan and Iraq aren't the 51st and 52nd states.
You mean the instability created, backed and funded by Western forces? You do realize that the instability was created by Western forces, financed and backed by the EU and the US state department, to topple the duly elected government of a sovereign nation, this is FACT not speculation. Its also why the West was so quick to recognize the legitimacy of the new government, even though it appears that many Ukrainians do not. This was not a popular movement, even the military is not really backing the new government.
I'm sure if you ask the people of Ukraine they are much better of with what is happening than anything that happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia did not just roll into the Crimea and say "Mine". The president of Ukraine requested that they come, then the people of Crimea requested to be part of Russia.
Just give this article a read http://news.yahoo.com/special-report-u-made-putin-problem-worse-185958789.html
It pretty well sums up why Russia may be suspicious of the west. Russia has tried very hard to work with the west in the last 20 years, even supporting US actions, however they have been shown absolutely no respect in return. It is not Russia that has lit the flames of a new cold war, The problem is the west has never lost the mentality.
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Post by: djones520
Andrew, I've spent time in Kyrgyzstan during a couple of their elections (and revolutions), and I can tell you with first hand knowledge that Russia is hard at work in everyone of those countries that were former satellites, doing everything they can to get the countries back in their fold.
Everything from buying politicians, to using terrorism.
The "legitimate" governments that you are referring to, are only legitimate in name, nothing more. Every other way they are already owned and controlled by Russia.
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Post by: Ouze
 djones520 wrote:Andrew, I've spent time in Kyrgyzstan during a couple of their elections
Were you deployed during the Clinton administration? I know there was a push to deploy vowels back then.
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Post by: djones520
I was only 16 when the Clinton admin ended. 
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Post by: Iron_Captain
Andrew1975 wrote:Lots of countries, including Russia.
Really? What countries has Russia taken over that they were not specifically requested by the legitimate government? What areas has Russia taken by force, I mean when people vote to be part of Russia that seams a bit more legitimate than taking over a government through bloody revolution like happened in Kiev.
Do you see the red cities? Those were the areas that originally became Russia when the Norse took over. The Norse invasion was requested by the local tribes, so that was legitimate. But that is one of the only times in history that a Russian invasion was requested. Everything beyond that has been taken by force.
Russia has waged more wars than most nations in the world combined. To suggest Russia has never taken over areas by force is quite hilarious. Russia did come to occupy one-eighth of the world by being invited...
As to Crimea, that certainly was more legitimate than what happened in Kiev. At least people got to vote there. But in the end, without Russian force, that referendum would not have been possible, so you could say that Russia has taken the Crimea by force. But in the end, it is for the best. Crimea wants to be part of Russia, Crimea has been part of Russia for centuries.
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Post by: Wyrmalla
And a vote where your choices are "become part of Russia" or "become independent from Ukraine" is completely legitimate...
Russia peaceful? Hey Georgia how're you doing? Oh you're sitting playing cars with your pals Chechnya and Moldova? Yeah, how's that working out for you?
Meh, people can defend Russia for its foreign policy on one hand (somehow, I mean they tend to block western powers at every other vote at the UN), and ignore their oppressive domestic policy with the other. =P
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Post by: Andrew1975
Andrew, I've spent time in Kyrgyzstan during a couple of their elections (and revolutions), and I can tell you with first hand knowledge that Russia is hard at work in everyone of those countries that were former satellites, doing everything they can to get the countries back in their fold.
Everything from buying politicians, to using terrorism.
The "legitimate" governments that you are referring to, are only legitimate in name, nothing more. Every other way they are already owned and controlled by Russia.
Yes, it's called a sphere of influence, that should be respected. However when we look at the history, we can see that the west is constantly trying to push further and further east, what is Russia supposed to do just sit there and let it happen? Are we also to pretend the west does not do exactly the same thing. This time the west just lost the game. I'm not saying espionage doesn't happen. I'm saying in this case the west tried to topple a government that was next to Russia, something they have been doing for a long time. The west agreed to stop pushing east, it has not.
Do you see the red cities? Those were the areas that originally became Russia when the Norse took over. The Norse invasion was requested by the local tribes, so that was legitimate. But that is one of the only times in history that a Russian invasion was requested. Everything beyond that has been taken by force.
Russia has waged more wars than most nations in the world combined. To suggest Russia has never taken over areas by force is quite hilarious. Russia did come to occupy one-eighth of the world by being invited...
As to Crimea, that certainly was more legitimate than what happened in Kiev. At least people got to vote there. But in the end, without Russian force, that referendum would not have been possible, so you could say that Russia has taken the Crimea by force. But in the end, it is for the best. Crimea wants to be part of Russia, Crimea has been part of Russia for centuries.
So since the fall of the Soviet union, please tell me what Russia has taken by force, because that is when this Russia came into existence.
Russia peaceful? Hey Georgia how're you doing? Oh you're sitting playing cars with your pals Chechnya and Moldova? Yeah, how's that working out for you?
Georgia??? I'm sorry, are you speaking of when Russia repelled the invasion of South Ossetia by the Georgian Military?
The facts are when was the last time you saw Russia meddling in the affairs of Europe and America or countries in their respective sphere of influence. You don't really see this happening since the fall of the soviet union. In fact Russia has provided support for western actions in Iraq and Afghanistan in the past. All Russia ever asked was for the West to respect Russian interests in areas that should be considered Russia's back yard. If the west can't or won't respect Russia's right be the major player in Eastern Europe, I don't really see why Russia has to respect the west attempts to influence those areas at all.
Its too bad, a real opportunity has been blown to bring the East and the West together, but it was no blown by Russia. If you read the article I posted, you can see repeatedly that the west still sees Russia as the Boogie man, or worse than that, unimportant. Russia has tried to play ball, the west are just being dicks.
Meh, people can defend Russia for its foreign policy on one hand (somehow, I mean they tend to block western powers at every other vote at the UN), and ignore their oppressive domestic policy with the other. =P
Why wouldn't Russia block the western powers? Russia has tried to play ball with the west, and has been very helpful, only to watch the west keep moving east and labeling Russia the bad guy. I see no reason for Russia to cooperate anymore.
I can defend Russia's foreign policy, because for the most part is only extends to areas relatively close to Russia and has been nowhere near as violent and bloody as the wests.
For the west to be calling Russia out right now is the pot calling the kettle black
And lets not speak about domestic policy issues. The west has just as many of those.
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Post by: djones520
So basically your argument simply boils down to...
"We do it, so they can as well."
Well sorry, but I don't see us setting up bombs at soccer matches, formenting civil war, etc...
And Russia repelling an invasion of South Ossetia? Oh my god you've gotta learn how to read. Nearly a full month prior to Georgia taking military action against Ossetia, the Ossetians and Russians were attacking Georgia. Georgia villages where shelled, police stations bombed, Georgian friendly politicians were subject to assassination attempts. Months before that, the Russian military was attacking Georgian military assets.
It's obvious whose camp your in, with your selective reading of historical fact.
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Post by: Andrew1975
So basically your argument simply boils down to...
"We do it, so they can as well."
My argument is the west does it all over the world with pretty horrific results (you want to weigh the body count?), Russia does it in its own back yard with pretty minimal bloodshed, and usually as a reaction to western meddling in the affected region.
Well sorry, but I don't see us setting up bombs at soccer matches, formenting civil war, etc...
 Are you Serious???? The WEST DOES NOT FORMENT CIVIL WARS?
We are looking at the results of the west formenting a Civil war in Ukraine RIGHT NOW! The Ukrainian uprising was formented funded and supported by the west. In fact without Russia stepping in that's exactly what would have happened. East and West Ukraine would be going at it like Syria if Russia didn't step in. The west loves to forment revolution, wait till it gets super violent and bloody and then declares "We have to step in to stop this mess" with an invasion that usually turns out bloodier that the original civil war.
And Russia repelling an invasion of South Ossetia? Oh my god you've gotta learn how to read. Nearly a full month prior to Georgia taking military action against Ossetia, the Ossetians and Russians were attacking Georgia. Georgia villages where shelled, police stations bombed, Georgian friendly politicians were subject to assassination attempts. Months before that, the Russian military was attacking Georgian military assets.
I think you need to look at that situation again, because thats not how it happened. Thats how the West likes to look at it, but its not the real story.
It's obvious whose camp your in, with your selective reading of historical fact.
You need to stop getting all your historical "facts" from fox news my friend.
I can see what camp you are in, clearly you are a "MERRICAN" and what history you like to ignore. You want to talk about drone strikes on weddings, or villages getting wiped out? How may innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan do you want to start counting.
If Russia was goofing around in Canada or Mexico, I would fully expect the US to do something about it. But this is Russia's backyard.
You know, when I see the current Ukrainian government resorting to threating their own military for not shooting at their own citizens.....well I get a pretty clear picture of how popular this new government is and who the real bad guys are.
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Post by: Palindrome
Andrew1975 wrote:East and West Ukraine would be going at it like Syria if Russia didn't step in.
lol.........
That's certainly an interesting way of looking at it.
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Post by: Iron_Captain
djones520 wrote:So basically your argument simply boils down to...
"We do it, so they can as well."
Well sorry, but I don't see us setting up bombs at soccer matches, formenting civil war, etc...
And Russia repelling an invasion of South Ossetia? Oh my god you've gotta learn how to read. Nearly a full month prior to Georgia taking military action against Ossetia, the Ossetians and Russians were attacking Georgia. Georgia villages where shelled, police stations bombed, Georgian friendly politicians were subject to assassination attempts. Months before that, the Russian military was attacking Georgian military assets.
It's obvious whose camp your in, with your selective reading of historical fact.
What? Russia shelling Georgian villages? Attacking Georgian military? This is the first time I've heard such a thing. With such claims, it would be nice if you could show some proof for them, seeing your love for 'unselective reading of historical fact'. It is obvious what camp you are in as well.
Russia only invaded Georgia when Russian peacekeepers in the region were being attacked. Those peacekeepers had been deployed there since the Georgian-Ossetian war of 1991-1992, and Russia only took the Ossetian side after the Georgian-Ossetian conflict of 2004. Before that, it had supported the status quo.
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Post by: Andrew1975
 Palindrome wrote: Andrew1975 wrote:East and West Ukraine would be going at it like Syria if Russia didn't step in.
lol.........
That's certainly an interesting way of looking at it.
Right because that never happens.....oh wait, that is ALMOST ALWAYS what happens in these situations, double so when its a conflict that is clearly an East vs West situation..do you need a list?
So you don't think that without the threat posed by the Russian Military this would not have escalated? What history classes have you been taking? The new eastern regime would have tried to quell the "rebels" with force, and that force would have been met by armed "rebels". The West and Russia would then start clandestinely arming their respective sides, this is all pretty standard and text book stuff, nothing new to see here. Just look at how nasty Kiev was compared to the rest.
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Post by: Palindrome
Andrew1975 wrote:
So you don't think that without the threat posed by the Russian Military this would not have escalated?
I think that Russia's involvement and heavy handedness caused the escalation. Why would the new Ukrainian government have resorted to force? They may do now that their hand has been forced since several key buildings have been captured by men who don't look at all like they are military, honest.
Kiev got nasty because the old regime was heavy handed, what sort of government deploys snipers for crowd control?
The west doesn't arm non governmental forces, if we didn't arm the Libyans we certainly weren't going to be arming the Ukrainians. now that the new regime is in place the west may provide some limited armaments, but that vast majority of their equipment is Russian in origin.
You are comparing the modern world to the 60s and 70s, there is no such thing as a proxy war anymore.
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Post by: Iron_Captain
Palindrome wrote: Andrew1975 wrote: So you don't think that without the threat posed by the Russian Military this would not have escalated?
I think that Russia's involvement and heavy handedness caused the escalation. Why would the new Ukrainian government have resorted to force? They may do now that their hand has been forced since several key buildings have been captured by men who don't look at all like they are military, honest. Kiev got nasty because the old regime was heavy handed, what sort of government deploys snipers for crowd control?
Why would the Ukrainian regime resort to force? Well, to keep the country together of course. They came to power in an illegitimate, undemocratic and violent revolution that mostly came from the West of the country, and many people in the East don't like that and go to the streets, occupying buildings and arming themselves, just like the pro-Maidan protesters did before them. And what government deploys snipers? Well, this new one apparently: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2573923/Estonian-Foreign-Ministry-confirms-authenticity-leaked-phone-call-discussing-Kiev-snipers-shot-protesters-possibly-hired-Ukraines-new-leaders.html. The new regime contains a lot of very unsavory, violent types, and as they have know experience at ruling, using force is the only way they know. By deploying troops, they hope to swiftly crush the rebellion and prevent Russia from interfering. Add to that the contempt the new regime has for Russians, Russian-speakers and Eastern Ukrainians, and it does not take a genius to figure out why Kiev deploys troops. The rebels in Eastern Ukraine may look military, but they are definitely not Russian soldiers. Most of them are members of the Crimean Self Defense forces bolstered by new recruits from Eastern Ukraine, and their equipment is mostly captured from Ukrainian stockpiles. Military stuff is really not hard to come by in Ukraine. I say the West caused this whole situation by escalating the Maidan protests and Pravy Sektor made it even worse by disobeying the agreement that was reached. The crisis was further escalated by the actions of the coup-appointed government and the Crimean referendum. Palindrome wrote:The west doesn't arm non governmental forces, if we didn't arm the Libyans we certainly weren't going to be arming the Ukrainians. now that the new regime is in place the west may provide some limited armaments, but that vast majority of their equipment is Russian in origin. You are comparing the modern world to the 60s and 70s, there is no such thing as a proxy war anymore.
Wait wut? The West has stopped arming non-governmental forces? since when? And maybe you didn't arm the Libyan rebels, but you surely helped them by bombing the gak out of the Libyan government. But of course that doesn't count because everything NATO does is good, right?
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Post by: Andrew1975
The west doesn't arm non governmental forces,
HA HA you are funny.
I think that Russia's involvement and heavy handedness caused the escalation.
What escalation? The event has only deescalated since it started. Look at the daily body counts if you need to. Now if gak hits the fan, then it could escalate quite a bit, there is not much of a chance, but there is potential that this could end up being the beginning of something much bigger than a civil war.
Why would the new Ukrainian government have resorted to force?
For the same reason they are quazi attempting to now, the rest of Ukraine isn't buying it.
Kiev got nasty because the old regime was heavy handed, what sort of government deploys snipers for crowd control?
Short answer, lots, most even. Most recently......the U.S. or haven't you heard http://www.infowars.com/federal-snipers-train-guns-on-family-for-filming-cattle/
"Federal snipers with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) trained guns on members of a family yesterday after they dared to stop and take video footage of cattle outside the bounds of a designated “First Amendment Area,” before arresting one of the men for non-compliance."
As opposed to threatening soldiers for not shooting protesters, like the new regime is?
there is no such thing as a proxy war anymore.
It's so cute that you believe that.
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Post by: Palindrome
Well its obvious that this isn't going anywhere given your condescending tone, I am amazed that you think that Russia is the good guy here.
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Post by: Jihadin
In a Armed Conflict everyone is a good guy and everyone a bad guy regardless of what side your on.
He who last laugh wins
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Post by: Ironclad Warlord
I didn't read all the post but Jews are not being ordered to register, it was actually a flyer put out by Ukrainian nationalist to make the Russian nationalist look bad. Also how is Putin in any way like Hitler, he has a lot pro Russian nationalism but I don't see him talking about a master race. I don't get why everything comes back to Hitler, is it just because its a knee jerk reaction simaler to calling your foes communist or do you actually have such a butchered knowledge of History that Hitler is the only bad guy you can think of?
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Post by: dogma
djones520 wrote:
Well sorry, but I don't see us setting up bombs at soccer matches, formenting civil war, etc...
No, the US would never foment civil war.
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Russia only invaded Georgia when Russian peacekeepers in the region were being attacked. Those peacekeepers had been deployed there since the Georgian-Ossetian war of 1991-1992, and Russia only took the Ossetian side after the Georgian-Ossetian conflict of 2004. Before that, it had supported the status quo.
Yeah, that's nonsense. Russia had de facto control of most of South Ossetia following the '91-'92 war, and the Ossetians under de facto Russian control initiated the conflict by way of militia violence.
Palindrome wrote:
The west doesn't arm non governmental forces, if we didn't arm the Libyans we certainly weren't going to be arming the Ukrainians.
We do, but generally we ask for money first; capitalist pigs that we are.
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Post by: Andrew1975
Palindrome wrote:
Well its obvious that this isn't going anywhere given your condescending tone, I am amazed that you think that Russia is the good guy here.
Its just unbelievable with all the facts present that you somehow believe proxy wars don't exist, the west does not arm foreign nationals, and the west still has a cold war mentality in regards to Russia, even though Russia has attempted in the past to play nice . Yeah its toned down from the days of Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan, but it still exists.
The U.S. state department is one of the most underhanded groups on the planet when it comes to manipulating and overthrowing other countries. This is not necessarily a bad thing, I think the U.S. has the right influence areas that are of some concern, my concern is ....well they are not all that good at it, and maybe they should recognize that trying to reach into the back pocket of what could have been a great ally is not really in our best interests.
Could you imagine what a great alliance between Russia and the U.S. could accomplish? Yeah, we are never going to be buddy buddy like the U.S and England, but if we could just work together, we could accomplish a lot. Russian assistance and guidance was invaluable when the U.S. initially went into Afghanistan, it was looking like a bright future.
There are no good guys in this situation. All parties are trying to interfere in the affairs of a foreign nation. If Russia had just rolled into Ukraine and took over for gaks and giggles, that would be one thing. BUY THATS NOT WHAT HAPPENED. The west went into Ukraine and fostered and formented a revolution in Russia's back yard, and not a particularly successful one. It was easy enough for Russia to keep it in check.
The west has more pressing issues to handle than going around pissing on Russia's shoes, and Russia can not just let that slide either.
And for what, what does Ukraine really offer the west, that is worth starting the cold war again?
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Post by: dogma
Andrew1975 wrote:
The U.S. state department is one of the most underhanded groups on the planet when it comes to manipulating and overthrowing other countries. This is not necessarily a bad thing, I think the U.S. has the right influence areas that are of some concern, my concern is ....well they are not all that good at it, and maybe they should recognize that trying to reach into the back pocket of what could have been a great ally is not really in our best interests.
Russia was never going to be a Western ally. Too many of its leading politicians came to power in the Cold War and they, rightly, recognize that they have things (mostly natural gas) that the West needs.
Oh, and then there's the whole nuclear proliferation thing.
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Post by: Andrew1975
 dogma wrote: Andrew1975 wrote:
The U.S. state department is one of the most underhanded groups on the planet when it comes to manipulating and overthrowing other countries. This is not necessarily a bad thing, I think the U.S. has the right influence areas that are of some concern, my concern is ....well they are not all that good at it, and maybe they should recognize that trying to reach into the back pocket of what could have been a great ally is not really in our best interests.
Russia was never going to be a Western ally. Too many of its leading politicians came to power in the Cold War and they, rightly, recognize that they have things (mostly natural gas) that the West needs.
Oh, and then there's the whole nuclear proliferation thing.
Like I said, they were never going to be buddy buddy, like the U.S. and the U.K. but there was a time where there was a sense of progress, warming and co-operation towards each other. We are so far away from each other, if we just respected that we have our own sphere of influences we could find ways to work with each other on issues that are threats to both of us.
The nuclear proliferation issues were not really that big of a issue with the New Russia, until the Bush announced that the United States was withdrawing from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, so that it could build a system in Eastern Europe to protect NATO allies and U.S. bases from Iranian missile attack. This was seen by Russia as a step in the wrong direction, while it was not aimed at Russia, it threatened Russians nuclear deterrent capabilities. This action when combined with the infectious spread of NATO, made Russia uncomfortable, Russia rightly had to feel like they were again being treated like the odd man out. That's basically when Russia decided it was no longer in its best interest to cooperate with the West.
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Post by: Orlanth
Back to the OP.
As the incident with Jewish registration has been largely met with silence I wonder if Israel may try to evacuate the Donetsk Jews?
I can see Netanhayu profiting from this big time.
- It reinforces the ideology that Jews can only look to themselves for defense, which in turn 'justifies' heavy handed actions.
- It allows Israel to reboot the guilt trip, which is fast expiring for nobody else helping Jews. Especially as Obama visibly doesnt seem to care.
- The evacuated Jews will strengthen numbers of the correct persons in Israel.
- They will need somewhere to live, which is an excellent excuse for a fresh round of land grabs and expulsions.
Netanyahu is no fool, so we wont hear anything until they are ready. But I can sniff similar plans to the evacuation of Ethiopian Jews in the 70's.
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Post by: Doctadeth
Vote NO to russia taking over your country, and get beaten up and whipped by the cossacks.
"do you want your health, your family, your respect and dignity. Vote yes for russian domination".
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Post by: -Shrike-
 Orlanth wrote:
As the incident with Jewish registration has been largely met with silence
That's because it's the most disgusting piece of propaganda put out so far by either side. There's no substance to it, just something that was entirely fabricated and distributed in an attempt to undermine the anti-Maidan movement in Donetsk.
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Post by: NuggzTheNinja
Orlanth wrote:Back to the OP.
As the incident with Jewish registration has been largely met with silence I wonder if Israel may try to evacuate the Donetsk Jews?
I can see Netanhayu profiting from this big time.
- It reinforces the ideology that Jews can only look to themselves for defense, which in turn 'justifies' heavy handed actions.
- It allows Israel to reboot the guilt trip, which is fast expiring for nobody else helping Jews. Especially as Obama visibly doesnt seem to care.
- The evacuated Jews will strengthen numbers of the correct persons in Israel.
- They will need somewhere to live, which is an excellent excuse for a fresh round of land grabs and expulsions.
Netanyahu is no fool, so we wont hear anything until they are ready. But I can sniff similar plans to the evacuation of Ethiopian Jews in the 70's.
Back to the OP, which is about Jews in Europe...clearly it's time to start criticizing Israel and imply that they're conspiring to profit from the situation.
Really rich. PS: Passover just happened...might want to check your kids' blood volume.
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Post by: timetowaste85
If we've learned anything from comics, registration acts are a serious issue. History too: Nazi Germany anyone? If the Jewish population is being forced to register, it's only going to get worse from here. If we get giant robots sent to hunt down Jewish people, I'm getting metal claw implants and I'm gonna kick some tail. I'm gonna stay at home on "bring electric beams to work" day though-I'm allergic to em.
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Post by: Andrew1975
Palindrome wrote: Andrew1975 wrote:East and West Ukraine would be going at it like Syria if Russia didn't step in.
lol.........
That's certainly an interesting way of looking at it.
You are right, I don't know what I was thinking, these things never devolve into small factions killing each other in a civil war, I mean that never happens.....oh wait.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27093347" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27093347
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-russia-trade-blame-eastern-shootout-140213905.html
So the second Russia starts standing down, the Western Ukrainians take this as a sign to start slaughtering people. Couldn't have seen that coming.
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Post by: Orlanth
 -Shrike- wrote: Orlanth wrote:
As the incident with Jewish registration has been largely met with silence
That's because it's the most disgusting piece of propaganda put out so far by either side. There's no substance to it, just something that was entirely fabricated and distributed in an attempt to undermine the anti-Maidan movement in Donetsk.
We don't know if this is the case, it could be furious back pedalling.
Remember that Donetsk has been seized by armed militias, not by the Russian army, individual groups could have any number of agendas, not excluding far right. Russia has a long history of violent anti-Semitism.
No reason not to take this seriously until the source is revealed, and dealt with.
Automatically Appended Next Post: NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Back to the OP, which is about Jews in Europe...clearly it's time to start criticizing Israel and imply that they're conspiring to profit from the situation.
Criticism of Israel would be less justified if Israel didn't do the many abhorent things that are cause of justified criticism.
I hope you dont want to go back to the old bugbear of accusing anyone who speaks out against the human rights abuses perpetrated by Israeli governments and military as 'anti-Semitic'.
Also no conspiracy is implied, only that a window of opportunity could be present.
World of difference by saying Netanyahu could try to profit from this, and Netanyahu is trying to profit from this.
Besides if things get ugly for Jews in Donetsk an evacuation plan similar to initiatives with the Ethiopian Jews would not of itself be a bad idea.
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Post by: Jihadin
We go into Israel bashing now?
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Post by: Iron_Captain
Well, for some people Jew = conspiracy!!!.
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Post by: Ahtman
And for some people not agreeing with everything Israel does = anti-Semitic. Both are fairly non-defensible stances, but it hasn't kept it from happening.
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Post by: Orlanth
Only if you don't read the thread properly, and insist on misrepresenting what was actually written.
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Post by: Ironclad Warlord
Its amazing how people believe the factoids that are are shown on the news and then cite them like they saw it themselves.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Ironclad Warlord wrote:Its amazing how people believe the factoids that are are shown on the news and then cite them like they saw it themselves.
It's amazing how this thread is two months old as well.
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Post by: Orlanth
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:Ironclad Warlord wrote:Its amazing how people believe the factoids that are are shown on the news and then cite them like they saw it themselves.
It's amazing how this thread is two months old as well.
Besides John Kerry made comments on this, before it was debunked. IIRC he called the alleged developments 'disgusting'. If a senior government official took it seriously enough to make statements you cant blame Dakka for doing so.
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Post by: -Shrike-
Exalt. And the actual image name... I love it.
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Post by: Ironclad Warlord
I HAVE THE POWEEER
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Post by: Jihadin
Ahtman if I knew you had that pic on hand I would have prompted Whembly to revive the Benghazi Thread
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