Thokt wrote: Thread title says it all? What would fellow Necron players like to see in the next 'dex?
My hopes:
1) A more functional Monolith.
2) A stronger push for non-metallic, ceramite paint schemes.
3) A new destroyer model. I am not of fan of the current centaur style model, it seems incredibly wacky considering the rest of the model range.
4) Long range artillery. It would be fantastic to have something a touch better than the Doomsday Ark.
Of course, GW will be entirely unpredictable in their efforts here - I just can't imagine a Necron monstrous creature model would suit.
MC. You mean like a Tomb Spyder or Tomb Stalker? Why not a heavier Canoptek critter designed to protect the tombs, a big Tomb Scorpion?
New Destroyer model would be nice. Don't abandon the Centaur design, but maybe bulk up the back of the torso so it blends more into the grav bike part and is not just a torso sitting on top.
Definitely need a Royal Court box with parts to make 5 models as a variety of lords and crypteks.
MSS gone. Something That powerful should not exist
Wraits go to 1W and loose rending
Nightscythe/Doomscythe Price Increase
Warriors down to Leadership 7.
Thokt wrote: I think you missed the part where I asked what fellow Necron players would like..
I think he missed the part where it was asked for realistic wishes
My wishlist:
- Old fluff returns.
- Matt Ward quits codex writing forever.
- Heavy Destroyers go down by 10 points
- Phase-Out returns, with an advantage for the Necron player e.g. the entire army becoming Fearless.
- Matt Ward quits codex writing forever. Not sure if I mentioned that.
- Monolith becomes more than a useless piece of plastic. Give Deepstrike Immunity.
Things that should be done:
Annihilation barge point cost increase (though maybe make them fast, and cost 130ish)
MSS point cost increase
Night scythe point cost increase
Stuff I want:
Meaningful difference between gauss/tesla so that tesla is not almost always the way to go
Triarch stalker point cost decrease
Change up melee units so that wraiths are not the only option. Probably by toning down wraiths a tad while buffing other melee things and decreasing their cost
Deathmark range increase
Give Doomsday arks the ability to move at combat speed and shoot the big thingy
Agreed that destroyers need some love in the way of more durability or decreased cost. New models would be neat too.
I actually like the new fluff though, gives the 'crons some depth.
Well, I think we shall not see a new Necron codes in this or the next year.
The current codex is quite good and all units are more or less playable bar Flayed Ones.
Hotsauceman choose Sociolgy as his Major, so clearly he is pretty poor at sound decision making. Best ignore him for the purposes of well-thought out suggestions.
What I Would like to see:
Lychguard bumped to 3 A base. They Gain stubborn when a Necron Lord, or Overlord is the unit, as well as the Lord/Overlord automatically passing LOS! Rolls. In addition Lychgaurd gain the special rule
Perfect Stroke: Lychguard may halve their attacks (Rounding down) If they do so, they gain the Instant Death special rule for these attacks.
Praetorians- I think these guys should receive buffs to their weapons, that in effect buff them, but arn't direct buffs. IE I'd like Void Blades to get this buff:
Subatomic Severing- A weapon with this special rule gains Rending. In addition, Rends are made on to wound rolls of 5 and 6. This buffs the Void Blades, and puts a little competition for the Warscythe.
I'd like to see all particle weapons gain Fleshbane and Subatomic Severing.
With those buffs, the PC and VB upgrade would be +5 PPM.
I think the staff of light should become a CC weapon, as well. That way you could purchase a Voidblade, and gain +1 attack, due to Staff of Light and Voidblade. This helps put some competition for the Warscythe.
I'd like to see a Triarch Judiactor generic HQ. This character would be a bit of a buffer, adding perhaps a stubborn aura, as well as having a jumppack standard.
A good Warlord Table would be nice:
Impeccable Logic- You may modify yours and your opponents reserve rolls by either +1 or -1
Enhanced Protocols- The Warlord may be reroll failed reanimation protocols rolls of 1
Proven Superiority- The Warlord and his unit have the Hatred USR.
Artifice of the Heavens- Once per game the Warlord and his unit may reroll all failed reanimation protocols for the Phase (I.E. Once during the Shooting, or the Assault phase)
Master of Space/Time- You may roll for reserves starting on the first turn. These reserves come in on a 4+, unless further modified.
Weapons of the Heavens- One Unit of infantry of your choice with either the Gauss or Tesla special rule for their weapons gains the following: Gauss now causes glances on 5 or 6's. Tesla may reroll failed to hit rolls of 1.
Artifact Ideas:
Artifacts:
Scythe of Endless Night- (Overlord and Destroyer Lords only) When the Nightbringer was shattered, part of his undying hatred and hunger leaked into A Necron Warscythe, creating the Baleful Scythe of Endless Night. A powerful weapon, however it Causes the bearer to always seek to prove his superiority, with an insatiable appetite for blood.
Stats- Warscythe, however it causes all successful Invulnerable saves caused by wounds from it to be rerolled, and Instant death on to wound rolls of 6. In addition, the Bearer must always issue and accept challenges. 45 points.
The Orb of the Undying- This powerful Orb was made for a Necron Overlord known as “The Undying”. This perpetual Orbs artifice is shrouded in mystery, as the Overlord has the Cryptek who made it, destroyed, to prevent it from falling into any rivals hands.
The bearer of this Orb Makes successful reanimation protocol rolls on a 3+. The bearers unit (If it has one) Make Reanimation protocol rolls on a 4+ 50 points
The Mindslaver Swarm- A powerful swarm of experimental mindshackle scarabs, These scarabs bend to the will of the user, enslaving all who oppose him.
The bearer of the Mindslaver Swarm, may chose a model during close combat to undergo the effects of mindshackle scarabs. In addition, if the target model fails his mind shackle scarab test, he makes D3+1 hits against himself, instead of the usual D3. This model does not have to be in base contact with the model carrying the Mindslaver swarm. 35 points
Curse of the Flayer- (May not be taken on Destroyer Lords) The once Regal lord has mutated into a Flayed Lord, devolved of Mind and Body. However, there is still some spark of sentience left, as Lords and Overlords that devolve, are often found leading the pack. What they lost in mind, though is made up in a blood spattering ferocity.
Loses IC (If it has it)However, the bearer may join a flayed one pack, even if the normal rules would prevent this. Grants Preferred enemy, Shred, Hatred and Rage. 35 points.
Phylactery of the Liche-Lord- (One use Only)These legendary devices, named after the Immortal Cryptek and Necron lord, known as the “Liche” are incredibly difficult to manufacture. However, bearers of this appear to be beyond the normal immortality shown of the Necrons, repairing blows that would normally send a Necron back to the tomb for repairs, in mere seconds.
The bearer of the Phylactery of the Liche-Lord automatically passes the first Reanimation protocol test during the game, that he is required to make. In addition, he recovers D3+1 wounds (Not to exceed his starting amount) After that, the Phylactery is destroyed. 20 points
The Eye of Omokk- Omokk is one of the very few crypteks to delve into the intricacies, of anti-Warp material. He invented Null Fields, Gloom Prisms, and the Powerful Pylons that render the Warp Inert. One of his more eldritch devices is known as the “Eye of Omokk” a powerful enhancement made during the War of Heaven, for the most prestigious of Necron Nobles. This Device made the user nearly immune to the effects of the warp, and stunted the powers of any users nearby, trying to use the warp.
Any unit or model within 12’ of the bearer of the Eye of Omokk, attempting to use a Psychic ability, must do so on 3D6. If this ability is specifically targeting the Bearer of the Eye, or the Bearers unit, the test must be done on a 4D6. In addition, the Bearer gains the Admantium Will, and Preferred Enemy (Psykers) Special rule. 25 points
Not too sure about the attacks boost or the perfect stroke rule (sounds more like a Destroyer lord thing, imo), but the Stubborn rule sounds nice and fluffy.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Not too sure about the attacks boost or the perfect stroke rule (sounds more like a Destroyer lord thing, imo), but the Stubborn rule sounds nice and fluffy.
Lychguard are described in the fluff, as waiting, sometimes even stopping middle of the battle, to achieve that perfect stroke. Plus, it pretty much drops their attacks down to 1, unless you charged.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Not too sure about the attacks boost or the perfect stroke rule (sounds more like a Destroyer lord thing, imo), but the Stubborn rule sounds nice and fluffy.
Lychguard are described in the fluff, as waiting, sometimes even stopping middle of the battle, to achieve that perfect stroke. Plus, it pretty much drops their attacks down to 1, unless you charged.
Ah right, I forgot about that bit of lore.
Still not too keen on 3 attacks though. You don't see that many 'crons with that many attacks outside of HQs.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Not too sure about the attacks boost or the perfect stroke rule (sounds more like a Destroyer lord thing, imo), but the Stubborn rule sounds nice and fluffy.
Lychguard are described in the fluff, as waiting, sometimes even stopping middle of the battle, to achieve that perfect stroke. Plus, it pretty much drops their attacks down to 1, unless you charged.
Ah right, I forgot about that bit of lore.
Still not too keen on 3 attacks though. You don't see that many 'crons with that many attacks outside of HQs.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Still higher than an Overlord though. Unless Overlords and D.Lords are buffed to WS5 as well (which they should be to begin with, really)
Are you arguing from a fluff, or balance perspective for this?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Still higher than an Overlord though. Unless Overlords and D.Lords are buffed to WS5 as well (which they should be to begin with, really)
Are you arguing from a fluff, or balance perspective for this?
Fluff perspective. I understand balance wise why they wouldn't have WS5 (because that would be brutal with S5 + scythe), but it just seems odd how a 100,000 year old machine who's capable of calculating the most efficient ways to murder someone is no better a fighter than some genetically engineered human.
-Reduction in points for Troops
-Access to codex-specific warlord traits
-Access to codex-specific artificats, relics, or whatever
But also
-Destroyers need 1 more wound
-Monoliths need 1 or 2 more HP -Illumnator Szeras needs better rules
-Somehow make Lychgaurd and Flayed Ones playable (not OP, just normal, run of the mill, playable)
Generally speaking, I'm actually happy with the current Codex. If they just released it as is in hardback, I'd buy it just to have a more durable book.
Artifacts:
Scythe of Endless Night- (Overlord and Destroyer Lords only) When the Nightbringer was shattered, part of his undying hatred and hunger leaked into A Necron Warscythe, creating the Baleful Scythe of Endless Night. A powerful weapon, however it Causes the bearer to always seek to prove his superiority, with an insatiable appetite for blood.
Stats- Warscythe, however it causes all successful Invulnerable saves caused by wounds from it to be rerolled, and Instant death on to wound rolls of 6. In addition, the Bearer must always issue and accept challenges. 45 points.
The Orb of the Undying- This powerful Orb was made for a Necron Overlord known as “The Undying”. This perpetual Orbs artifice is shrouded in mystery, as the Overlord has the Cryptek who made it, destroyed, to prevent it from falling into any rivals hands.
The bearer of this Orb Makes successful reanimation protocol rolls on a 3+. The bearers unit (If it has one) Make Reanimation protocol rolls on a 4+ 50 points
The Mindslaver Swarm- A powerful swarm of experimental mindshackle scarabs, These scarabs bend to the will of the user, enslaving all who oppose him.
The bearer of the Mindslaver Swarm, may chose a model during close combat to undergo the effects of mindshackle scarabs. In addition, if the target model fails his mind shackle scarab test, he makes D3+1 hits against himself, instead of the usual D3. This model does not have to be in base contact with the model carrying the Mindslaver swarm. 35 points
Curse of the Flayer- (May not be taken on Destroyer Lords) The once Regal lord has mutated into a Flayed Lord, devolved of Mind and Body. However, there is still some spark of sentience left, as Lords and Overlords that devolve, are often found leading the pack. What they lost in mind, though is made up in a blood spattering ferocity.
Loses IC (If it has it)However, the bearer may join a flayed one pack, even if the normal rules would prevent this. Grants Preferred enemy, Shred, Hatred and Rage. 35 points.
Phylactery of the Liche-Lord- (One use Only)These legendary devices, named after the Immortal Cryptek and Necron lord, known as the “Liche” are incredibly difficult to manufacture. However, bearers of this appear to be beyond the normal immortality shown of the Necrons, repairing blows that would normally send a Necron back to the tomb for repairs, in mere seconds.
The bearer of the Phylactery of the Liche-Lord automatically passes the first Reanimation protocol test during the game, that he is required to make. In addition, he recovers D3+1 wounds (Not to exceed his starting amount) After that, the Phylactery is destroyed. 20 points
The Eye of Omokk- Omokk is one of the very few crypteks to delve into the intricacies, of anti-Warp material. He invented Null Fields, Gloom Prisms, and the Powerful Pylons that render the Warp Inert. One of his more eldritch devices is known as the “Eye of Omokk” a powerful enhancement made during the War of Heaven, for the most prestigious of Necron Nobles. This Device made the user nearly immune to the effects of the warp, and stunted the powers of any users nearby, trying to use the warp.
Any unit or model within 12’ of the bearer of the Eye of Omokk, attempting to use a Psychic ability, must do so on 3D6. If this ability is specifically targeting the Bearer of the Eye, or the Bearers unit, the test must be done on a 4D6. In addition, the Bearer gains the Admantium Will, and Preferred Enemy (Psykers) Special rule. 25 points
-Reduction in points for Troops -Access to codex-specific warlord traits -Access to codex-specific artificats, relics, or whatever
But also -Destroyers need 1 more wound -Monoliths need 1 or 2 more HP -Illumnator Szeras needs better rules -Somehow make Lychgaurd and Flayed Ones playable (not OP, just normal, run of the mill, playable)
Generally speaking, I'm actually happy with the current Codex. If they just released it as is in hardback, I'd buy it just to have a more durable book.
The troops are already pretty good value for their points. I do agree though that destroyers need a second wound; they are pretty bulky, and unlike Lychguard and Praets, they come in small squad sizes. Monoliths don't need the HP; what they need is their DS protection back. A 5-6 HP Monolith would be nearing super-heavy territory.
Lychguard are playable. It's just a bit tricky. The way I see it is that Lychguard aren't meant to be used like terminators and take the fight to the enemy; they are meant to be used like bodyguards, acting as a safe place for your overlord as well as protecting your rear and side lines from infiltrators / assault units, etc etc. The problem I have with sticking an overlord in a unit of warriors is that it's a CC model in a unit that's not meant to be in CC. With a court lord it doesn't really matter since it's just there to carry the orb, but Overlords are too pricy to just be Orb carriers. Better to stick him in the rear lines with a retinue of T5 4++ bodyguards to stop your opponent from getting Warlord, and stop that melta from nuking the barge's rear armor.
While overall I feel wishlsiting is a futile, it is an interesting exercise in seeing what ohers want.
From a higher level I would like to see;
* better internal balance - some units are amazing, some are utterly bad
* more CC options - not just saying "make X better" but more options
* some fluff changes - I like the dynasties (stops them from uniting, so they don't win) but the ctan sharding was silly.
Some specifics
* Fix the ctan. They are arguably the worst MC's in the game. I get that back then they did not want super MC's...but in a world of knight titans and wraithknights...they should have a buff. If they want to say a weaker ctan is similar to the current one (reduce his cost at least) thats fine...but the night bringer? He should be on par with the wraithknight.
* give more options in CC than mindshackle scarabs (which annoy other players who don't get they are necessary) and wraiths (which are auto include). Necrons are terrible at CC..they only options are wariths and mindshackle scarbs - they need more options that are viable (improve lychguard, make another melee unit, or give HQ other options than just mindshackle).
* Make monliths useful - first, fix the ordnance rules - they are mixing "this weapon is dangerous" with "this weapon has a recoil that would shake a ww1 tank", then they need something to make them more useful, or cheaper. Both would benice.
* Better psydefense - not asking for a rune priest here, but something better than a gloom prisim - prehaps available to crypteks
* warlord traits that are decent
* a list of relics that are balanced and interesting
* fix the whipcoils - make them similar to nid lashwhips to remove ambiguity.
* add the tombstalker to the codex - its an amazing model, just make sure the points are good (not too good, but not bad either).
I am not looking for wave serpent spam, or a return to cron'air or gravamps, I just want a few more options (psydefense, warlord traits, better CC untis) and some sub-par units boosted (ctan, monolith, lychguard, praetorans, etc.).
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I think we shall not see a new Necron codes in this or the next year.
The current codex is quite good and all units are more or less playable bar Flayed Ones.
I believe we'll see a new Necron Codex next year, as there won't be much left to update, and GW loves money most of all. I don't think they update armies based on current playability etc.
Judging by the past few codices, I bet we lose at least one special character, hopefully not Trazyn or Nemesor Zahndrekh/Obyron. Night Scythes and Anh. Barges could use a price increase, I just hope they don't nerf Tesla on top of that.
I'd like to see the Monolith become usable again and I'd probably get more praetorians if they were made more useful. Mixed weapon loadout for Lychguard would be sweet.
I agree with most of what's been said already.
For all the hate Ward gets, the current Necron codex is pretty good with just a handful of internal balance issues. Judging by many of the fluff entries, I don't think he's a particularly good writer, but he had some interesting ideas that made the Necrons far more interesting. Maybe if I read the GK codex I might understand the hate more.
Can they be taken in Codex: Necrons? No? Ok then. His point still stands.
Also, please explain to me how else necrons are meant to counter Monstrous Creatures and beatstick ICs without becoming yet another Space Marine clone.
Can they be taken in Codex: Necrons? No? Ok then. His point still stands.
Also, please explain to me how else necrons are meant to counter Monstrous Creatures and beatstick ICs without becoming yet another Space Marine clone.
A) They are 40k approved, therefore they can be taken, if people cannot accept this fact then they are not following "official" rules.
B) Maybe they shouldn't? you have the tesseract (or whatever that cube is). Similarly a Wargear item that gives a modifier to a few stats instead of hitting myself in the face, I would rather attack at say WS1 than rather just throwing away Slay The Warlord trait.
Or what about those lists that don't include a MC? so its ok if it was a DP or a Tyrant? but what about the CSM lord? or the Lord Commissar, is it ok that they should be getting no attacks through and then get a Warscythe in the face? or even the Lord Abbadon or Marenus Calgar? I really don't see SC hitting themselves in the face, after surviving as long as they have.
What MSS is basically an RPG element gone horribly wrong, I can see MSS working in a game of Rouge Trader or Dark heresy manipulating a character and a mission is compromised in order to save their comrade, but not as a piece of Wargear in a mass battle table top wargame.
Similarly you have good items for good Invulnerable saves and good armour saves, and you even have the Warscythe and if that does not scream anti-MC then I do not know what does if dice go poor then that's nature of the beast.
Also you have guns to take them out. Think of your army and what you can put into your army as a whole as a counter, rather than relying on one lazy piece of Wargear.
At the very worst it should be kept the same with a point increase and Warlord only.
I appreciate the FW links, but was already aware of that material. I don't have an interest in FW books, I would like to have artillery in the next codex. If it's a pylon, that's fine, if it's something new, or a reworking of the Doomsday Ark, I'm cool with that too. I'd just like more ways to play.
A) They indeed are. But this is a thread about a new codex.
B) Tessaracts are 1 use only and remove models on a wounds test. Monsters tend to have plenty . Not very reliable.
The Warscythe is indeed killy. It's also 3 attacks at WS4 and initiative 2. Still not very reliable, especially against T6 5W monsters who are much, much better at CC than the overlord. Fun fact - last edition lords had warscythes, and MCs and CC characters still killed them off. In fact, lords back then had initiative 4.
Abbadon and Calgar will butcher a necron squad, so yeah, they should get MSS'd. It is a tool after all. You might as well call melta cheesy for wrecking vehicles so efficiently. Don't want your characters MSS'd? Then mob the bearer; the target has to be randomly determined, and must be in B2b contact so piling another 2 mooks on the lord or keeping the character away from him should stop him from punching himself.
And the guns? The short ranged, low strength or not-decent AP guns? Not that effective against monsters either.
Now, I do agree that the MSS should be more expensive; I always thought that 25-30pts is more suitable. But removing it from the army? You might as well remove synapse from tyranids.
I disagree with MSS being OP. If you swarm the model who has it it isn't so bad. Also I've played plenty of games where it fails to hit so I don't think anything should be done to it.
I agree with better playability for flayed ones. I also would love to see a Silent King model that buffs your army somehow. Maybe give the whole army BS+1?
I would like to see Praetorians get some love. When was the last time anyone actually fielded them? They get 1A at I2, who would use them as assault troops? They suffer the same problem that the Lychguard have. They cost too much for what you get. If they could get a necron praetorian lord, it might be more worthwhile. I just have a hard time with the 1A. I don't even care what slot they are in, they are cool model concept and I would use them if they had more than 1A.
Lychguard are too expensive for what you get. I know I don't use them because a unit of 10 is 400pts, a unit of 5 gets taken off the board too quickly. Maybe give them everliving so they still get a chance to get back up even if the unit is shot dead?
I think the shield save and deflection should be used regardless of whether the invulnerable save is required. Are they just letting tons of bolter fire hit them because their 3+ is better? Probably not. Give them a chance to deflect regardless of the save used.
Destroyers either need another wound, +1 toughness, or some sort of character in the unit besides a HQ choice. You can put them with destroyer lords but that is a pretty heavy tax for an orb. As they are, they are 5 models that get taken off the board entirely too fast.
Heavy destroyers, same issue for 60pts instead of 40pts. I think the upgrade is too expensive as well, I can see 10pts but not 20pts. the base model is a str5 AP3 weapon with 2 attacks. The Upgrade is str9 ap2 with 1 attack.
I personally love monoliths and I think DS protection is perfect and I would field them with just that simple change.
Tomb Blades, let me take more than 5 in a unit or have a lord that can ride a tomb blade and I would be all over these.
Reality:
Wraiths are going to get nerfed. They will probably lose phase shift if I was a betting man.
I fully expect that warriors will no longer be able to take Nightscythes as a dedicated transport, only immortals and the other elite choices. Warriors will probably only be able to take Ghost Arks. Too many people complain about necron air, cheap units with great transports.
Anni Barges will get a cost increase and nothing else.
MSS will get nerfed. They will probably just make it so the unit can't attack.
Essentially everything that makes Necrons competitive will take a hit. They did it to Tyranids, they will do it to Necrons.
Even if warriors couldn't use scythes as a DT I wouldnt mind paying extra for Immortals. I sadly think that you are right and Wraiths will get powered down. Honestly outside of Wraiths getting tanked I think necrons have a pretty good codex. Not overly OP but strong enough to make an opponent work at beating them.
Warmonger2757 wrote: I would like to see Praetorians get some love. When was the last time anyone actually fielded them? They get 1A at I2, who would use them as assault troops? They suffer the same problem that the Lychguard have. They cost too much for what you get. If they could get a necron praetorian lord, it might be more worthwhile. I just have a hard time with the 1A. I don't even care what slot they are in, they are cool model concept and I would use them if they had more than 1A.
Reality:
Wraiths are going to get nerfed. They will probably lose phase shift if I was a betting man.
I fully expect that warriors will no longer be able to take Nightscythes as a dedicated transport, only immortals and the other elite choices. Warriors will probably only be able to take Ghost Arks. Too many people complain about necron air, cheap units with great transports.
Anni Barges will get a cost increase and nothing else.
MSS will get nerfed. They will probably just make it so the unit can't attack.
Essentially everything that makes Necrons competitive will take a hit. They did it to Tyranids, they will do it to Necrons.
Praetorians have 2 attacks with the pistols. They lose the ability to fight terminators and the like but are able to hunt vehicles and harass ranged units. Most likely not that great unless you field wraiths as well that move up the board. However, I do believe that they are some of the better of the seldom used units. Their main failing are being less sturdy and worse in an assault than Wraiths. A slight cost increase on Wraiths combined with a cost decrease for Praetorians would make them rather attractive in my opinion.
Lychguards are just bad though. They are slow with low initiative and less sturdy than terminators and lack an assault vehicle. I doubt they would see a lot of play without a 50% point cost reduction or something equally drastic.
I think nerfing all the bread and butter necrons relies on these days without buffing anything else is an overly pessimistic outlook. The necron codex is fairly balanced today, even if the internal balance is a bit wonky. Some nerfs to the auto- include-in-every-list things is realistic, but I would expect wraiths and annihilation barges to still be useful after an update as well as some of the bad things in the codex to become useable.
Truth118 wrote: Judging by the past few codices, I bet we lose at least one special character, hopefully not Trazyn or Nemesor Zahndrekh/Obyron. Night Scythes and Anh. Barges could use a price increase, I just hope they don't nerf Tesla on top of that.
I'd like to see the Monolith become usable again and I'd probably get more praetorians if they were made more useful. Mixed weapon loadout for Lychguard would be sweet.
I agree with most of what's been said already.
For all the hate Ward gets, the current Necron codex is pretty good with just a handful of internal balance issues. Judging by many of the fluff entries, I don't think he's a particularly good writer, but he had some interesting ideas that made the Necrons far more interesting. Maybe if I read the GK codex I might understand the hate more.
We won't lose any special characters, since we have all the models for them. Special characters and units have been lost in other codexes, are because they don't have models.
Lychguard should get buffed to 2+ keep the shields where they are but give an additional option for a heavier weapon so they can be our terminators.
I use preatorians even though they are not the best option with a destroyer Lord they can hurt, they are over priced though so should drop to 30 points and keep current options.
Flayed one's suck because of I2, so make they the one exception to the rule and have them at I4, would not be game breaking would make them worth taking.
I use destroyers they are okay but do need a buff their shooting is fine but their survivability isn't.
I don't think wraiths will lose inv but may indeed take a movement hit with loss or change to wraithflight or they may just get a bump in price.
But we do need better ranged heavy weaponry it's kind of silly that such an ancient and advanced race caps most weapons at 24 inches.
hobojebus wrote: Lychguard should get buffed to 2+ keep the shields where they are but give an additional option for a heavier weapon so they can be our terminators.
I use preatorians even though they are not the best option with a destroyer Lord they can hurt, they are over priced though so should drop to 30 points and keep current options.
Flayed one's suck because of I2, so make they the one exception to the rule and have them at I4, would not be game breaking would make them worth taking.
I use destroyers they are okay but do need a buff their shooting is fine but their survivability isn't.
I don't think wraiths will lose inv but may indeed take a movement hit with loss or change to wraithflight or they may just get a bump in price.
But we do need better ranged heavy weaponry it's kind of silly that such an ancient and advanced race caps most weapons at 24 inches.
a 2+ is just too good on Lychguard. T5 2+ and RP is way to powerful for 40 points.
II do think Wraiths will get a fairly hefty price increase, probably 10 ppm more.
T5 2+ would be fine. It should not mean more than they they draw more fire as they move up, making people decide if they want to handle wraiths now or risk the lychguard reaching them. Although an other option would be to make them jump infantry in order to differentiate them from terminators. Mobile, hurty and not overly tough would be a decent niche.
Edit: quotes got messed up and I was unable to fix them from the phone.
I agree that mss needs to be fixed or removed, same with anni barges, these need an increase to around 120pts, deathsythes need to be at least 180 and dooms 200 but gw hasn't a clue how to price fliers properly so it will more likely be 150 and 180 respectively.
Warriors need a slight buff too I think, something similar to bladestorm fit, then there would a choice between.then and immortals.
Destroyers need lowering in cost too, especially heavies, monolith is absolutely fine at its points cost but bump it up 25pts if people want mishap immunity as that's pretty damn good for such a large model, another thing I would add is ap2 on its large blast, never understood why it isn't already.
Formosa wrote: I agree that mss needs to be fixed or removed, same with anni barges, these need an increase to around 120pts, deathsythes need to be at least 180 and dooms 200 but gw hasn't a clue how to price fliers properly so it will more likely be 150 and 180 respectively.
Warriors need a slight buff too I think, something similar to bladestorm fit, then there would a choice between.then and immortals.
Destroyers need lowering in cost too, especially heavies, monolith is absolutely fine at its points cost but bump it up 25pts if people want mishap immunity as that's pretty damn good for such a large model, another thing I would add is ap2 on its large blast, never understood why it isn't already.
There is absolusty zero reason that Night Scythes should be 180 points, that's absolutly ludicrous. Doomscythes are fine at 175.
T5 2+ would be fine. It should not mean more than they they draw more fire as they move up, making people decide if they want to handle wraiths now or risk the lychguard reaching them. Although an other option would be to make them jump infantry in order to differentiate them from terminators. Mobile, hurty and not overly tough would be a decent niche.
T5, 2+ and RP for 40 points is not fine. It's ludicrous. There are better ways to fix Lychguard than giving them a 2+ save.
Nightsythes are a dedicated flyer transport that's worth 100pts alone, add on the str7 tesla that's twin-linked and immunity to damage for any passengers, the ability to drop off said passengers anywhere you like pretty much and a large capacity...this all sounds like 180pts quite easily, now if we take away dedicated transport and immunity for passengers, add in hover mode and change the wormhole to be similar to the sky drop from valks/vens, so it either has to take a risk when dropping troops out or hover, then I can see it being around 150 or even 130.
Short of its sibling the MSSS, the MSS is possibly one of the most unreasonably useful things in that codex. Not only does it almost ensure the user will smack himself in the face being on 3D6 (2D6 with a -2 LD modifier would be better, and achieve similar results). Furthermore, it should NOT increase a model's damage output by 300% - a model who gets only 1 attack that phase should NOT get 3 attacks because scarabs made him do it.
2. Increase in points for night scythes. 120~130 points.
Not unprecedented, and not unreasonable. They pack a better version of a quad gun / ADL and cost the same price, with a transport capacity - all while protecting troops better than an ADL ever could.
3. Wraiths lose something
30 points, they get 2 T4 wounds with a 3++, 4 attacks and rending at S6. Did I mention how they're fearless? Wraiths can literally deal with anything if thrown up with a destroyer lord, even a land raider.
Either increase their points to something reasonable for their output - 75 points per model - or remove or reduce their invulnerable save, while reducing one of their other benefits. It would be reasonable if they had fleshbane instead of rending.
4. Warriors and immortals lose some leadership and go up in price a little.
Anyone notice they basically get a 5+ invulnerable save?
Immortals have a 22% chance of being removed as a casualty because of AP4/5/6, and a 67% chance against AP3/2/1.
Warriors have a 33% chance - the equivalent of a 3+ save - against AP5/6 and 67% chance against everything else.
5. C'tan returned to their former glory
Not a necessity, but I loved C'tan as they were in the HQ slot. They should get a reboot.
Lychguard do not need an assault transport, and aren't meant to be the necron version of terminators. They are not meant to spearhead assaults or seek out targets, but stay near the overlord and support the main army.=
They are rearguards, not vanguards.
Their current stats are fine. They just need more flexible options than all defense or all offense, and need to have their shields be the default gear. A power sword and a 4++ save should not cost more than a +2S AP1 weapon with Armor Bane, imo.
Based on the Tyranid rule changes, Mindshackle Scarabs will probably work the same but be rolled on LD-3, rather than on 3D6.
The Destroyer Lord will also go up by 15-25 pts.
Night Scythes will go up in cost, but I'm not sure by how much. Probably akin to 50 points, however. (The old point cost was based on them being fast skimmers, not flying.)
Doom Scythes will also increase in cost, probably to 190 pts, for the same reason.
Phase Shifting will be moved back to a 4+ Invulnerable save.
Wraiths will have Coils be aligned with Lashwhips and simply provide +3 Initiative to the model with them. They will get a price increase of 5 pts if the Phase Shift rule is weakened as above, 10 points if not. (Compare to Raveners or Ogryns in newer books for this direction. Ouch.)
Ghost Arcs will increase in cost by 10 points for no apparent reason.They will also either lose Gauss Array or will no longer allow passengers to fire out. They will then be largely set aside and no longer used by players.
So, that's the bad news.
The GOOD news.
Warlord Traits and Artifacts are a given.
Phase out + Fearless isn't a bad option, but would probably be optional (Akin to Marine chapter tactic) ... Heck, there's a chance of getting 6 "Legion Formations" that you can use to personalize the force a bit. What all those might be, I don't know, but I can make some suggestions later.
The addition of 1-2 new HQ options. Most likely are a "Warlord" 2 wound model and a "Cryptek Lord" of some kind. There's a chance that they'll just go ahead and make Crypteks psychers, just to get more rule alignment. This would also solve the Necron weakness to psychic powers (Or at least address it) ... if this is chosen, Necrons would get access to a "Harbinger" set of "Psychic" powers.
Personally, I'd go with two Harbinger charts, one for "Deciever" and one for "Destroyer", explained as using tiny C'Tan shards to draw power from and unleash enrgy on targets. If more C'tan were later introduced, they could get new charts and everything would flow along naturally.
(This would require recasting the current "Harbinger of blank" stuff, which may or may not be a good thing. Most people I know don't really get into that aspect, but, YMMV and all that.)
Necron Lords will gain a "Royal Entourage" with the Bodyguard rule. These will probably be Lychguards.
Necron Warriors will see a small point decrease (1-2 points, probably just the 1), but be given a few more options, such as Defensive Grenades.
C'tan Shards may be moved to HQ.
Flayed Ones will gain Fear. No one will care. They will be decreased to 10 points each. People will perk up a bit! They will probably be lowered to 2 attacks (or 1 and count their weapons as an addition CCW. Same effect.) ... People will be sad again. They will be moved to Troops and get a plastic kit, where people will start at least fiddling around with them.
Scarabs will have their Entropic Strike rule removed and replaced with an option to exchange their normal melee attacks for a single Haywire attack. (This will be done to align rules and to remove bookkeeping from changing armor values.) If the world is filled with hate, they'll lose Beasts and be bumped into Troops, akin to Tyranid Ripper Swarms.
Pariahs return. They'll be given a rule akin to auto-passing all "Deny the Witch" roles, cause Fear, and possibly get a "Psychic Hood"-like power to nullify psychic powers within 6" on a 4+ once per turn. They'll remain terribly underused. They won't get a new model kit and everyone will be a bit testy about that.
A new great big model centerpiece thing. While a giant stone statue-type thing would be awesome and fit in with the Knight/Tide/etc paradigm, it will more than likely be a Sphinx-like shape instead. Death Ray eyes, monsterous creature in melee, maybe some kind of tail zap as well.
Lychguard and Praetorians get combined into a new plastic kit. Immortals and Deathmarks (eventually) get similar treatment.
A new Necron Lord plastic "clamshell" gets a release, as well as a "Royal Entourage" box. These are sadly overpriced but wind up being really, really cool and full of upgrades and options.
That's ... more than just talking about Codex changes, but, well, I was on a roll there.
Ghost Arcs will increase in cost by 10 points for no apparent reason.They will also either lose Gauss Array or will no longer allow passengers to fire out. They will then be largely set aside and no longer used by players.
So, that's the bad news.
Actually, Chimeras have an array rule, so it's likely that the Ghost ark will keep it. Not letting anyone shoot out would turn it into a closed top vehicle. That's a good thing.
Also...Praets and Lychgaurd already come in a duel kit. Same with Immortals and Marks.
It doesn't make that much sense for C'tan to be HQ choices...unless you retcon the lore again.
I'm actually fairly happy with Crons, but the only changes I'd like to see are something along the lines of:
- Wraiths either losing a wound+ attack or the 3++
- Increase in price of the floaty shooty chair thing (Name escapes me atm)
- Flayed ones, Triarch Praetorians to gain some special rules to make them a bit more exciting/useable. Maybe change them to dedicated MC/ vehicle hunters?
- Lychguard to drop in points. A lot.
- Removal of a few special characters (honestly, who takes Anakyr?) as long as Trazyn+Obyrn/Zahndrek stay I'm happy.
- More long range shooting (preferably something to take down MCs more easily)
- adding in Acantharites to the main codex, to stop all the kerfuffle over using them.
- More tellyporty options. Necrons are goddamn super advanced robots, make them phase in out and all about like them!
This is just my personal preference, but I would really like to see crypteks roles revisited. Turn from the gun platforms that most people use them as now into more utility based, you can almost see that now with things like the chronometron, veil of darkness, and solar pulse.
Actually, Chimeras have an array rule, so it's likely that the Ghost ark will keep it.
Not letting anyone shoot out would turn it into a closed top vehicle. That's a good thing.
Also...Praets and Lychgaurd already come in a duel kit. Same with Immortals and Marks.
It doesn't make that much sense for C'tan to be HQ choices...unless you retcon the lore again.
I'd go with the array but close the top myself. (It has a force field. That's invisible. Roll with it!) The array rule is neat.
And some how I missed the dual kits already existing. This will teach me to not buy a new model from the line for a few years. D'oh.
C'Tan Shards in HQ would be akin to the Avatar in Eldar and is a more reasonable place for them. (You also get a nice theme going, with a C'Tan HQ, then lots of Cryptek units that follow/worship/draw power from it as your force.) ... it'd free up Elite slots, which is also nice. Teh fluff would be tricky, however, since they don't exactly LEAD anymore.
Running out of elite slots is not really a problem though. But yeah an utility based HQ would be fun, maybe one could make a cryptek-lord kind of thing even?
Not sure how one would accomplish it, but I would actually like to see some manner of deviation from most things being 24" range. More utility and some difference between units, ability to build longer range lists as well as meaningful 12" gauss lists would be interesting though.
B) Tessaracts are 1 use only and remove models on a wounds test. Monsters tend to have plenty . Not very reliable.
Still exists as an option though.
The Warscythe is indeed killy. It's also 3 attacks at WS4 and initiative 2. Still not very reliable, especially against T6 5W monsters who are much, much better at CC than the overlord. Fun fact - last edition lords had warscythes, and MCs and CC characters still killed them off. In fact, lords back then had initiative 4.
Yup, I remember this. I also remember the I'll be back rolls and the Invulnerable saves that kept them on the board.
Abbadon and Calgar will butcher a necron squad, so yeah, they should get MSS'd.
Nope this is not an RPG. Abbadon has survived 10,000 years though all sorts of hell and became the chosen of gods because of this. Somehow I don't see a little mind chip really affecting him that much. All I hear is someone being bitter at character's that are built for CC.
It is a tool after all. You might as well call melta cheesy for wrecking vehicles so efficiently.
However melta has a range and a very short one, hence why not many people complain about it.
Don't want your characters MSS'd? Then mob the bearer; the target has to be randomly determined, and must be in B2b contact so piling another 2 mooks on the lord or keeping the character away from him should stop him from punching himself.
Yes because SMthe elite of the elite are supposed to "Mob" yes you could take AM but I don't think every player will want to ally with "mobbing".
And the guns? The short ranged, low strength or not-decent AP guns? Not that effective against monsters either.
So you talk of "Mobbing" which is basically volumes of dice in CC, yet apparently in a shooty edition volumes of dice to kill a MC doesn't work? No I have seen telsa work fine on CC units and MC's, I have seen Flyrant's ad FDP get shot down in one turn by Volumes of dice produced by guns from the Necrons, also to note those short range guns will not have far to go just needing one movement phase to move, why? because those CC units will be moving to you, and they will be coming in the fastest way possible meaning that your units will not need to move much. That CC unit charges? Overwatch. and Overwatch with Tesla is all the more better .
Now, I do agree that the MSS should be more expensive; I always thought that 25-30pts is more suitable.
And whilst I agree very, very thinly that it should get a points increase, it should be limited to warlord only.
But removing it from the army? You might as well remove synapse from tyranids.
Again another blown out of proportion response by another user on Dakka.
The Necrons weakness was that they were always sucked in CC but had very good guns just like Tau. What made them different from Tau was that they were may more durable which came in the form of T: 4, a decent save and RP, they also have very nice invulnerable saves. Their vehicles also have very good durability in the form of those shields and living metal. their durability is what allows them to advance unlike Tau which remain stationary.
As I have said and will say again. MSS is an RPG element gone horribly wrong. MSS is meant to manipulate the wielder and its function was to get a host to infiltrate the enemy and perform espionage, as I have said I can see MSS in Dark Heresy or Deathwatch or Rouge Trader, but not as a war element for a mass battle Tabletop wargame. All it is, is Mat Ward being petty and throwing up his middle digit at all CC units, and its became a crutch piece of Wargear that is spammed by all Lord from all Necron players.
An assault troops choice with an Initiative higher than 2 that is a respectable points cost (so not 200 + for a five man unit).
A cool new big canoptek monstrous creature designed for assault that can tunnel underground or something. Also not Initiative 2. That would be pretty cool.
Also less finecast. That stuff sucks to work with (although it does look great)
T5 2+ would be fine. It should not mean more than they they draw more fire as they move up, making people decide if they want to handle wraiths now or risk the lychguard reaching them. Although an other option would be to make them jump infantry in order to differentiate them from terminators. Mobile, hurty and not overly tough would be a decent niche.
T5, 2+ and RP for 40 points is not fine. It's ludicrous. There are better ways to fix Lychguard than giving them a 2+ save.
Is T5, 2+ and RP REALLY that far out there for 40 points? Nurgle Chaos terminators are what? 37? For T5, 2+/5++, combi bolter and power weapon of your choosing. It's not like people are lining up to say how overpowered chaos terminators are.....
That said, I don't think it's the optimal solution, but the Necron book does lack a 2+ save unit.
Formosa wrote:Nightsythes are a dedicated flyer transport that's worth 100pts alone, add on the str7 tesla that's twin-linked and immunity to damage for any passengers, the ability to drop off said passengers anywhere you like pretty much and a large capacity...this all sounds like 180pts quite easily, now if we take away dedicated transport and immunity for passengers, add in hover mode and change the wormhole to be similar to the sky drop from valks/vens, so it either has to take a risk when dropping troops out or hover, then I can see it being around 150 or even 130.
They need to lose the "drop from flyer mode" ability, or go up in points. One or the other.
Change MSS to "highest two of 3d6" and I'm happy. Single biggest source of BS and rage ever. 50% chance on ld 10 to hit yourself for 15 points is down right stupid. As a Nid player who goes against crons very regularly (30-40 games in the past year), always against an overlord with semp weave, phase shifter, warscythe, and MSS, I almost cried tears of joy both times I killed one.
I'm a believer of MSS being the entire reason Crons will have to wait for an all new codex.
Right now as a Cron player, all I have to do is throw cheap 65 points MSS Lord from a Royal Court into any unit I have and they have the BEST deterrent for assaults from special characters in game.
Daemon Princes, MCs and high cost HQs become completely useless in melee when all you have to do is force them to hit themselves while you get free whacks with a Warcythe.
Crons right now suffer from an overloaded Dex with under costed units. They perform extremely well when played properly and not much outside the top builds can compete with their survivability. Not much can also deal with their MSS melee deterrent (as stated above)
The only real saving grace is their low Initiative. But as a Cron player myself, this rarely stops me from getting the job done.
What I would personally change in an updated dex?
MSS :Nominate a model carrying Mind Shackle Scarabs to be using this ability, and select 1 model in base to base with the holder of Mind Shackle Scarabs. A model in base to base contact with a model with Mind Shackle Scarabs must take a Leadership Test on 3D6. If the test is failed, that model must reduce it's attacks by 1 and suffer a hit at it's own unmodified strength ignoring armor saves. (Use NO special rules governed by that models special weapons or rules, such as instant death or double strength smash attacks)
Point cost gets reduced to 10.
Allow Necron units to have Crypteks become upgraded Warrior / Immortal / ect models from their group. They come mandatory in each group much like current CSM forced to pay for champions.
Monoliths should simply avoid Deepstrike mishaps, but cannot fire their Particle Whip during the turn they DO deepstrike.
Flayed Ones should have T5 and 2+ 5++ and the turn they deepstrike should cause an automatic fear test to enemies withing 12" of the unit at -2 Ld and pin them for the duration should they fail.
Wraiths should simply have their Wounds cut to 1 and have their Strength cut to 5. Rending shouldn't exist on these glorious buggers for their amazing worth already.
Tomb Blades should enately have a 3+ and Shrouded instead of Shadowloom. These guys are amazing but so much holds them back in terms of functionality due to the army being enately slow as molasses.
Praetorians aside from actually needing proper models, should have their Covenant Rods act as Melta gun with 12" range. Act as a power weapon (AP3) in CC. They just NEED to become functional.
Warscythes need to be reverted simply due to over-functionality... I don't know why these were buffed to the point of being the solely best CCW in game. From a cron perspective, a warscythe is a chainfist that is AP1 and strikes at I2 for no reason other than Arnold Schwarzenegger wanabe's say so.
These are the things I'd want changed as a Cron player.
I am surprised at all the posts that seem to want to nerf Necrons. Necrons are currently enjoying a relatively internally balanced codex and they have just enough power to be a contender on the uber-competitive scene. They are probably ranked fifth right now after Eldar, Tau, Chaos Demons, and Space Marines in terms of power.
Part of what makes Necrons Necrons is that they punish certain aspects of the meta.
1) They punish Mechanized armies. So I would be careful about any ideas about nerfing Scarab raison d'etre ("reason for being who they are")
2) They punish sinking lots of points into single models a la IC or MC. So I would be careful about nerfing Mindshackle Scarabs.
Necrons capacity to punish players who over-invest in Mech or who over-invest in Individual Models is a good thing. It really is!!
The Necron codex does seem to lack a bit in terms of diversity. There is a clear divide as far as what are useable choices and what are jank choices. The best decks are basically cramming as many wraiths, barges, and night scythes as one can into a list. I would like the jank choices to be buffed to the point where they could be viable choices in certain contexts. And, I am perfectly fine with throttling the current top runners (wraith, barges, night scythes) as long as it doesn't compromise on that good internal balance that enables pure Necrons to compete at the uber-competitive level. But, to reiterate, I think the Necrons are at a sweet spot here in terms of power and balance.
So I would like Destroyers survivability to be buffed to the point where they are playable. Maybe 2+ armor save and/or +1 Wound??
The Doomsday Ark should be able to move and shoot its big gun.
And the Monolith should be buffed to the point where it is playable. Specifically, I think it should have the ability to deep strike without mishap (ie push non-impenetrable models aside when it deep strkes). This would make the Monolith a mainstay of Necron tactics and open up a lot of diverse lines of play and a lot of fun games would ensue. Let's start seeing games where a Pyramid is plopped onto the table and stuff starts to spew out of it!
Wraiths may seem undercosted but I don't think they are. If a nerf is in order I think something should be buffed to take the place of Wraiths in winning lists. Wraiths enable charges against Tau gunlines. I would love Lychguard and Praetorians buffed to the point where they rival Wraiths in playability. If Praetorians and Lychguards are properly buffed, players could have the choice between fast and killy CC (wraiths), fast and nice shooty (Praetorians), and slow and extremely survivable (Lychguard).
Barges are legitimately undercosted though. Maybe you make them more expensive or you make Doomsday Arks or Stalkers or Spyders (with guns) cheaper. Obviously it depends on the great scheme of things. Some codexes get great deals on random stuff.
The only mechanic that I think is truly silly in some Necron lists is flyer spam. I don't think that is something you adress by nerfing Night Scythes specifically, however. I think the problem of flyers needs to be addressed more globally in the overall game. I think armies should be provided with the tools to fight flyers (via very accessible skyfire weapons) with some armies having to pay more or less based on fluff. I think the meta should have the tools it needs to be able to punish lists that spam too much flyers.
2) They punish sinking lots of points into single models a la IC or MC. So I would be careful about nerfing Mindshackle Scarabs.
For 15 points, that you can take in nearly every unit you take.
Punishing 'counter mechanics' aren't really that good or fun for the other play. Even MTG has been getting away from 'Counter' spells due to it being an UNFUN mechanic. It means you have to make things even more a specific way to counter the meta, and then it limits choices.
How many beatstick types are there, but can be punished by one simple thing that has no counter of it's own? If that's the case, there needs to be a mechanic for countering the counter. Otherwise the counter in itself isn't really worthwhile to keep.
col_impact wrote: The only mechanic that I think is truly silly in some Necron lists is flyer spam. I don't think that is something you adress by nerfing Night Scythes specifically, however. I think the problem of flyers needs to be addressed more globally in the overall game. I think armies should be provided with the tools to fight flyers (via very accessible skyfire weapons) with some armies having to pay more or less based on fluff. I think the meta should have the tools it needs to be able to punish lists that spam too much flyers.
Actually, Night Scythes are problematic pretty specifically compared to other fliers. They are one of the "unholy trinity" of problem fliers- Night Scythe, Baledrake, and until recently, Vendetta gunship.
The Baledrake and Night Scythe are problems because they both get to ignore some of the balancing elements that are built into the flier rules.
Baledrake is AV12, can regenerate hull points, and has a built in 5+ save, meaning it never has to jink. It is far more durable than other fliers. It also has a weapon that ignores the need to hit, ignores cover, and ignores most armor, rules to be a 360" torrent weapon, giving it a massive area of threat while ignoring the need to face the target.
Night Scythes ignore many of the limitations of transports. They don't have to hover to disembark troops. They can deploy units within 6 inches with no scatter, no matter how fast they have moved. If they are destroyed, the unit inside goes into reserves with no harm done, instead of taking S10 AP2 hits on all models and seeing if any live. They also have a weapon that for some reason is statistically more likely to generate hits if the plane is forced to jink than it is firing at full ballistic value, making Jink not a tradeoff of firepower vs defense, but a straight boost. They are also dedicated transports, making it far easier to put large numbers in a list without having to compete for FA or HS slots.
Giving yet more tools to kill flier spam is going to only encourage flier-spam more, since a list that can deal with 4-6 fliers is going to obliterate any list that takes only 1-2 fliers, meaning that either fliers will be left out, or forced to spam to make sure some survive. Right now the flier balance is getting a lot better as codices are updated. It's just the two problem fliers I mentioned that throw things out of wack, giving a bad name to fliers in general.
2) They punish sinking lots of points into single models a la IC or MC. So I would be careful about nerfing Mindshackle Scarabs.
For 15 points, that you can take in nearly every unit you take.
Punishing is a pained mechanic that generally depends, and it's not really a good mechanic. Even MTG has been getting away from 'Counter' spells due to it being an UNFUN mechanic. It means you have to make things even more a specific way to counter the meta, and then it limits choices.
How many beatstick types are there, but can be punished by one simple thing that has no counter of it's own? If that's the case, there needs to be a mechanic for countering the counter.
The counter is simply a horde, who cares if you MSS a grot? Don't blame MSS if running hordes is no longer a viable strategy. It should be.
To clarify, I think the healthiest armies are those with points invested in MSU rather than IC or MC or FMC. MSS pushes armies to play MSU. This is a good thing!
2) They punish sinking lots of points into single models a la IC or MC. So I would be careful about nerfing Mindshackle Scarabs.
For 15 points, that you can take in nearly every unit you take.
Punishing is a pained mechanic that generally depends, and it's not really a good mechanic. Even MTG has been getting away from 'Counter' spells due to it being an UNFUN mechanic. It means you have to make things even more a specific way to counter the meta, and then it limits choices.
How many beatstick types are there, but can be punished by one simple thing that has no counter of it's own? If that's the case, there needs to be a mechanic for countering the counter.
The counter is simply a horde, who cares if you MSS a grot? Don't blame MSS if running hordes is no longer a viable strategy. It should be.
To clarify, I think the healthiest armies are those with points invested in MSU rather than IC or MC or FMC. MSS pushes armies to play MSU. This is a good thing!
Considering that Horde armies are meta dependent because they are too weak.
MSU is boring, bleh, and I had enough of it back in mech-hammer 5th edition where the goal was to spam as many razorbacks.
MSU armies aren't healthy, they are just boring bland lists usually dictated because of poor rules.
Not to mention necrons counter horde with Tesla, and Horde armies can't win in 6th due to rate of fire Wave Serpents.
I think the healthiest armies are those that are viable, healthy lists should be any sort of list that can work without being 100% ineffective at all.
Formosa wrote:Nightsythes are a dedicated flyer transport that's worth 100pts alone, add on the str7 tesla that's twin-linked and immunity to damage for any passengers, the ability to drop off said passengers anywhere you like pretty much and a large capacity...this all sounds like 180pts quite easily, now if we take away dedicated transport and immunity for passengers, add in hover mode and change the wormhole to be similar to the sky drop from valks/vens, so it either has to take a risk when dropping troops out or hover, then I can see it being around 150 or even 130.
They need to lose the "drop from flyer mode" ability, or go up in points. One or the other.
Except they can't hover. The Supersonic rule they have strictly forbids them from hovering. Half the challenge of using either Scythe is dealing with the rigid movement restrictions. (18" minimum movement a turn, 90 degree turns only)
That's why the gave Scythe Invasion Beam; so they still actually function as transports.
2) They punish sinking lots of points into single models a la IC or MC. So I would be careful about nerfing Mindshackle Scarabs.
For 15 points, that you can take in nearly every unit you take.
Punishing is a pained mechanic that generally depends, and it's not really a good mechanic. Even MTG has been getting away from 'Counter' spells due to it being an UNFUN mechanic. It means you have to make things even more a specific way to counter the meta, and then it limits choices.
How many beatstick types are there, but can be punished by one simple thing that has no counter of it's own? If that's the case, there needs to be a mechanic for countering the counter.
The counter is simply a horde, who cares if you MSS a grot? Don't blame MSS if running hordes is no longer a viable strategy. It should be.
To clarify, I think the healthiest armies are those with points invested in MSU rather than IC or MC or FMC. MSS pushes armies to play MSU. This is a good thing!
Except, as stated, tesla and storm-teks invalidate hordes. Additionally, tell me what viable MSU I should take as Tyranids to deal with these? Currently, Tyranids rely heavily on MCs, FMCs, and horde support to function. Under your suggestion, I'm left with no viable options.
On top of that, you say it punishes sinking large amounts of points into beatstick characters, however you can build an overlord into a solid beatstick by sinking a large number of points into him. Why do you get that privilege if we don't?
Where's the Necron love here? Beyond their strength on the table, I find everything about them fascinating. I enjoy nearly the entire model range, and hope the next 'dex expands upon that in an exciting way. Necron vehicles are some of my favorite amongst all of 40k, I'd love to see another.
I think deep strike protection for the Monolith would be excellent, as well as a reworking of the gate's attack profile. In addition, I'd like to see the particle whip improved in nastiness or given multiple profiles to choose from. The Monolith is supposed to be a fearsome element of Necron forces, heralding their implacable advance. It's missing the mark on that aspect.
Thokt wrote: Where's the Necron love here? Beyond their strength on the table, I find everything about them fascinating. I enjoy nearly the entire model range, and hope the next 'dex expands upon that in an exciting way. Necron vehicles are some of my favorite amongst all of 40k, I'd love to see another.
I think deep strike protection for the Monolith would be excellent, as well as a reworking of the gate's attack profile. In addition, I'd like to see the particle whip improved in nastiness or given multiple profiles to choose from. The Monolith is supposed to be a fearsome element of Necron forces, heralding their implacable advance. It's missing the mark on that aspect.
Thokt wrote: Where's the Necron love here? Beyond their strength on the table, I find everything about them fascinating. I enjoy nearly the entire model range, and hope the next 'dex expands upon that in an exciting way. Necron vehicles are some of my favorite amongst all of 40k, I'd love to see another.
I think deep strike protection for the Monolith would be excellent, as well as a reworking of the gate's attack profile. In addition, I'd like to see the particle whip improved in nastiness or given multiple profiles to choose from. The Monolith is supposed to be a fearsome element of Necron forces, heralding their implacable advance. It's missing the mark on that aspect.
Less nerf talk, more fun please.
Oh don't get me wrong I do love the Necrons as I love the model range, I just despise MSS with a passion as the damage output is too good and for me I know that even if it goes up in points people would spam it still, hence why I say either make it Warlord-Only or take it our completely.
I am also a AM/IG player who disliked Marbo as well, as for me he was an unfun element to play against so I never took him, and was glad he disappeared so its not just specialised Necron hate more "one hit wonder spam" criticism.
I think what I would like is some sort of giant walker that looks like an equivalent to a Dreadknight with a massive two handed warscythe and a giant cannon on its arm and it could be the "overlords champion" from something like a gladiatorial arena game (after all I assume the Nercontyr had some form of entertainment right?) and he fights in the name of his Overlord?
I think its hard coming up for and modifying the Necrons (apart from the obvious) as its hard to think up new things for a race that from a background standpoint has everything, from my perspective.
Yeah, I have to admit, suddenly giving a model 3 attacks when it should have 1 normally is pretty silly. Honestly, I would just drop the damage part of it; stopping the affected model from attacking is sufficient.
--MSS to be reduced to a Ld Test on a 2D6 with a -2 modifier, only causing the affected model to be unable to attack for 20ish points
--Warscythes to be made Two-Handed without the +2 strength modifier, +1 at most (str 5/6 with armourbane is more than enough in most circumstances) with maybe a small points increase
--Viable weapons for characters besides the Warscythe
--Gauss changed to autio wound on a 6 with a +1 modifier to armour penetration rolls
--Some form of 'Phase Out' reintroduced, something like 'instead of falling back, models with this special rule are placed into reserves, all RP counters they may have had removed. If they were locked in combat the enemy unit may not perform a Sweeping Advance'. Gives us our weakness back (albeit in a less-strong way) while also giving us a small combat buff
--C'Tan returned to glory! (Honestly, they are terrible)
--Better Elites in general! (Flayed Ones are terrible, Lychguard and Praetorians are a notch above them)
--Monolith Deep Strike protection
--Point decrease for Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers
--Wraiths with a 3+/4++ and a points increase
--Point increase for Night Scythe and Anni Barge
--Spyders being able to take a resurrection orb bubble upgrade (for old time's sake)
Thokt wrote: Thread title says it all? What would fellow Necron players like to see in the next 'dex?
My hopes:
1) A more functional Monolith.
2) A stronger push for non-metallic, ceramite paint schemes.
3) A new destroyer model. I am not of fan of the current centaur style model, it seems incredibly wacky considering the rest of the model range.
4) Long range artillery. It would be fantastic to have something a touch better than the Doomsday Ark.
Of course, GW will be entirely unpredictable in their efforts here - I just can't imagine a Necron monstrous creature model would suit.
>C'tan Shard buffed
>Destroyers buffed or made cheaper
>Flayed Ones completely revamped since right now they're just deep striking warriors without guns with +1 attacks
>Triarch Praetorians going back to the drawing board as 40 point jump infantry units are not worth it
>Lychgard buffed or made cheaper
>Orikan updated for 6th edition
>Writhing Worldscape updated for 6th edition
>Seismic crucible replaced or made more available in greater numbers (maximum 2 per 2k points makes them not worth it)
I really just want to see things in the codex made useful when they're presently not. I can't think of a scenario where flayed ones would be useful nor a scenario where imotekh's bloodswarm scrabs would be useful.
I would also like to see some of the character get a buff or two in certain areas. I can understand forgoing a phase shifter on them, but some of them not having sempiternal weave means you have to baby sit them while their abilities might not be worth babysitting them.
Jaceevoke wrote: Wow I guess I'm going to have to get a new army, if the necrons get nerfed as bad as some are predicting.
There's definitely been more talk of nerf than anything. A lot of it is complaining on the part of non-Necron players - but if I feel the level of outcry is a bit over the top. Necrons are not wrecking everyone's figurative shops.
It would be amazing if C'Tan got buffed back, I'd love to field one. Theoretically, they should be at least as powerful as a wraithknight or riptide. Otherwise, why wouldn't you just manufacture akin to the latter instead of the poor risk to reward relationship of holding shards of gods captive?
I'd also love to see immortals receive a bonus to the RP - they should get back up more often than warriors!
I'm not too hot on Phase- Out and don't expect to see anything based upon it re-introduced. I feel like it's a bit more of a fluff curveball to re-introduce that idea in an edition with very few fluff curveballs.
Immortals are already more resiliant than warriors with their 3+ saves. I suppose they could have their T5 back though; that's what separated them from warriors back in 3rd ed. Well, that and the fact they were elites with better guns.
If Immortals do get a buff to RP, then so would Overlords, praets and Lychguard, since those are higher "ranked."
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Immortals are already more resiliant than warriors with their 3+ saves. I suppose they could have their T5 back though; that's what separated them from warriors back in 3rd ed. Well, that and the fact they were elites with better guns.
If Immortals do get a buff to RP, then so would Overlords, praets and Lychguard, since those are higher "ranked."
I wouldn't say no to that; would mean I'd actually take Lychguard outside of for laughs.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Immortals are already more resiliant than warriors with their 3+ saves. I suppose they could have their T5 back though; that's what separated them from warriors back in 3rd ed. Well, that and the fact they were elites with better guns.
If Immortals do get a buff to RP, then so would Overlords, praets and Lychguard, since those are higher "ranked."
I wouldn't say no to that; would mean I'd actually take Lychguard outside of for laughs.
Ai, the question is though how to go about it. If immortals get a 4+ to their RP, then due to rank Overlords, Royal Court, Lychguards and Praets would have 3+. Which would become 2+ due to the orb. Which is...silly.
I guess Orbs can provide rerolls instead, but still, it's a tad clunky.
Again, no reason to nerf MSS. If necrons "needed" nerfs then why don't they win all the time. You just have to handle them differently as is the case with each army. Besides, you want to nerf an army's highlights in the presence of lists that include three Riptides and wave serpents out the yin yang? Or lists that spam helldrakes? Necrons are where they should be IMO.
Murdius Maximus wrote: Again, no reason to nerf MSS. If necrons "needed" nerfs then why don't they win all the time. You just have to handle them differently as is the case with each army. Besides, you want to nerf an army's highlights in the presence of lists that include three Riptides and wave serpents out the yin yang? Or lists that spam helldrakes? Necrons are where they should be IMO.
"Other codex's are overpowered, thus our balance is fine."
Yeah no that's not a good argument at all, everyone wants those to be balanced/nerfed in the appropriate area's as well, and the OP things of a codex will be fixed as well.
Should assault return to prominent domain in 6.5/7th/whatever, it'll kill builds, as it is MSS kills tyranids down hard due to their necessary reliance on FMC's.
Oh, MSS definitely do not need nerfs. The item itself is very powerful, but it's (almost) always placed on terrible melee units. It's easy to be dealt with by swarming the carrier or properly assaulting a unit instead of just blindly shoving your miniatures around. If you do, you deserve to get punished for playing bad. Furthermore, the lord with MSS usually stands in a unit of Necron Warriors or Immortals that horribly, horribly suck in melee. If it was possible to have MSS in a strong cc unit and use it effectively, it would be nerf-worthy, but right now, it's fine.
The exception to the rule is the Destroyer Lord, but since he does not allow you to take a Royal Court, that's fine as well and the price you pay for having a strong cc model.
Murdius Maximus wrote: Again, no reason to nerf MSS. If necrons "needed" nerfs then why don't they win all the time. You just have to handle them differently as is the case with each army. Besides, you want to nerf an army's highlights in the presence of lists that include three Riptides and wave serpents out the yin yang? Or lists that spam helldrakes? Necrons are where they should be IMO.
"Other codex's are overpowered, thus our balance is fine."
Yeah no that's not a good argument at all, everyone wants those to be balanced/nerfed in the appropriate area's as well, and the OP things of a codex will be fixed as well.
Should assault return to prominent domain in 6.5/7th/whatever, it'll kill builds, as it is MSS kills tyranids down hard due to their necessary reliance on FMC's.
Except that IMOMSS isn't OP. If you can't play around it, then perhaps you should think about what you blindly throw at it.
Murdius Maximus wrote: Again, no reason to nerf MSS. If necrons "needed" nerfs then why don't they win all the time. You just have to handle them differently as is the case with each army. Besides, you want to nerf an army's highlights in the presence of lists that include three Riptides and wave serpents out the yin yang? Or lists that spam helldrakes? Necrons are where they should be IMO.
"Other codex's are overpowered, thus our balance is fine."
Yeah no that's not a good argument at all, everyone wants those to be balanced/nerfed in the appropriate area's as well, and the OP things of a codex will be fixed as well.
Should assault return to prominent domain in 6.5/7th/whatever, it'll kill builds, as it is MSS kills tyranids down hard due to their necessary reliance on FMC's.
Except that IMOMSS isn't OP. If you can't play around it, then perhaps you should think about what you blindly throw at it.
Cute, an insult towards my playing style. I suppose I'll simply do what has been done entirely in this edition and simply continue with pure shooting armies, assault is gimped as it is.
It invalidates build styles entirely, so thus it's fine.
Murdius Maximus wrote: Again, no reason to nerf MSS. If necrons "needed" nerfs then why don't they win all the time. You just have to handle them differently as is the case with each army. Besides, you want to nerf an army's highlights in the presence of lists that include three Riptides and wave serpents out the yin yang? Or lists that spam helldrakes? Necrons are where they should be IMO.
"Other codex's are overpowered, thus our balance is fine."
Yeah no that's not a good argument at all, everyone wants those to be balanced/nerfed in the appropriate area's as well, and the OP things of a codex will be fixed as well.
Should assault return to prominent domain in 6.5/7th/whatever, it'll kill builds, as it is MSS kills tyranids down hard due to their necessary reliance on FMC's.
Except that IMOMSS isn't OP. If you can't play around it, then perhaps you should think about what you blindly throw at it.
Cute, an insult towards my playing style. I suppose I'll simply do what has been done entirely in this edition and simply continue with pure shooting armies, assault is gimped as it is.
It invalidates build styles entirely, so thus it's fine.
No insult towards your play style at all! Sorry that is how you took it, but it wasn't intended. What I was saying, since I didn't convey that very well (apologies btw) was that if it breaks your back then maybe try to avoid it, or engage it differently. As a BA player I feel your pain, but I have played many, many matches against MSS, and I'll tell you this: MSS is the LEAST of your worries against Crons as a melee army. Yes it is strong, but I honestly melee is very weak right now and you are calling out ONE ability that you don't like because it is a direct counter to your play style. Blood Angels players such as myself feel the same pain. MSS doesn't nerf play styles at all. Crons are a shooting army, thus they are strong against melee armies. Tau are the same. AM are up there too. It's tough times for CC armies, trust me I know. War Scythes in my opinion are far worse than MSS. Doomsday Arcs are far worse. Annihilation Barges, Flying Pastries, Command Barges, Wraiths. And you wanna hit MSS? Necrons just own CC armies...
Murdius Maximus wrote: Again, no reason to nerf MSS. If necrons "needed" nerfs then why don't they win all the time. You just have to handle them differently as is the case with each army. Besides, you want to nerf an army's highlights in the presence of lists that include three Riptides and wave serpents out the yin yang? Or lists that spam helldrakes? Necrons are where they should be IMO.
"Other codex's are overpowered, thus our balance is fine."
Yeah no that's not a good argument at all, everyone wants those to be balanced/nerfed in the appropriate area's as well, and the OP things of a codex will be fixed as well.
Should assault return to prominent domain in 6.5/7th/whatever, it'll kill builds, as it is MSS kills tyranids down hard due to their necessary reliance on FMC's.
Except that IMOMSS isn't OP. If you can't play around it, then perhaps you should think about what you blindly throw at it.
Cute, an insult towards my playing style. I suppose I'll simply do what has been done entirely in this edition and simply continue with pure shooting armies, assault is gimped as it is.
It invalidates build styles entirely, so thus it's fine.
No insult towards your play style at all! Sorry that is how you took it, but it wasn't intended. What I was saying, since I didn't convey that very well (apologies btw) was that if it breaks your back then maybe try to avoid it, or engage it differently. As a BA player I feel your pain, but I have played many, many matches against MSS, and I'll tell you this: MSS is the LEAST of your worries against Crons as a melee army. Yes it is strong, but I honestly melee is very weak right now and you are calling out ONE ability that you don't like because it is a direct counter to your play style. Blood Angels players such as myself feel the same pain. MSS doesn't nerf play styles at all. Crons are a shooting army, thus they are strong against melee armies. Tau are the same. AM are up there too. It's tough times for CC armies, trust me I know. War Scythes in my opinion are far worse than MSS. Doomsday Arcs are far worse. Annihilation Barges, Flying Pastries, Command Barges, Wraiths. And you wanna hit MSS? Necrons just own CC armies...
I don't actually run an assault based army (Slaanesh type, heavy noise, though I do run a slight assault based list for amusement at times), I just dislike aspects that kill certain play styles hard without a direct counter of it's own, it's a cheap 15 point item that can be taken in numbers to gimp armies that use weaponry on sarge/beatstick sort heroes, which usually give up benefits to the rest of the army in order to do it's task, it can force force weapons to activate in order to instant death and that is abominable.
The rest of those at the end can be balanced by costs, or various other measures of nerfs and balances, the MSS is the one that has no direct correlation, should Assault become stronger again it'll just be taken in numbers even if it hits 30 points, as it's measure is a direct shutdown of strong character models with unique weaponry.
The other thing I would concern myself with is the auto-hits on tesla, which cause massive issues for horde based armies, which is another issue I'd concern with.
As for a shooting army, they are not, they have a multi-tude of CC options that are just generally weak as a result of bad balance, with Wraiths proving strong as well, they should be a generalized army with an option for CC, MC, or other options as a result of their 'tech', which will get hopefully balanced out in a new edition.
I could complain about the rest of the issues that need to be buffed or nerfed, but my issue is mainly with the one thing that is a direct counter without any balance towards counterplay. As someone said, 2d6 with -2 to LD would be a fair choice as while it'd still hurt some armies (Tyranids, but what doesn't nowadays) , continuing with 3D6 is not. Something of that nature is what provokes my ire within an army...As well as badly balanced units that break a meta (Eldar )
Make MSS an artifact (1 per army), bump it's points by about 10, problem solved. A single MSS is easy to deal with for almost every army. As far as the rest of the book, wraiths are about the only thing that needs anything more than a small points increase to get them balanced.
Nightscythes and annibarges could use 20-30 point increases in cost. Warriors and immortals could get bumped up about a point a piece.
Warscythes need a 5-10 point increase imo.
Doomscythes are fine as costed.
Fix possible loopholes with rules (debate over EL models getting to stand up after a sweeping advance is a prime one along with ghost arks bringing back models other than warriors.)
Lychguard needs to drop 5 points or so for the basic warscythe version, the sword and board version needs to be 3+/3++ and get about a 5pt increase in the upgrade cost.
Scarabs and spyders are fine as is. My only concern is the Spyderstar which I haven't tried or played against yet, so I can't really say what or if I would change.
Doomsday Ark could use a small points break
Praetorians need a points break.
Stormteks should probably be reduced to 3 shots instead of 4.
Flayed ones moved to troops, give them shred.
C'tan mainly points breaks in main cost and abilities.
Tomb blades 3+ armor
Monoliths regain some form of deep strike protection, possibly with an appropriate points increase.
Stalker needs a points break
Destroyers need their old gun back, heavies could use a second shot.
Mainly - make changes in small steps, especially with a faster release schedule.
Wakshaani wrote: C'Tan Shards in HQ would be akin to the Avatar in Eldar and is a more reasonable place for them. (You also get a nice theme going, with a C'Tan HQ, then lots of Cryptek units that follow/worship/draw power from it as your force.) ... it'd free up Elite slots, which is also nice. Teh fluff would be tricky, however, since they don't exactly LEAD anymore.
C'tan shards in current fluff are basically deranged mind controlled Pokemon that get unleashed on the battlefield and then locked up again at the end of the battle, it would make zero sense for them to be an HQ choice as basically, given free will, they would likely rather turn on the Necrons themselves than fight their enemies for them.
Moreover, full powered C'tan are so overpowered in fluff as to make using them on a battlefield downright slowed- the Nightbringer could kill everything in a solar system with a swing of its scythe and the Moulder of Worlds reshaped planets on a whim to make their forms more pleasing for him, there's no rules you could give them other than "if you have this model in your army you win the game".
I would like the Triarch part of Triarch Stalker to be dropped. It doesn't make that much sense to me that a walker like that can only be fielded by members of the triarch.
Maybe the Triarch Stalker can be an upgrade, granting it an extra hull point or something.
Also, closed cockpits on the flyers. It doesn't make sense rules wise, and it looks ridiculous. Speaking of closed tops, you'd thing that a powerful and ancient race of aliens would work out that putting a layer of metal over the exposed parts of a vehicle would increase it's resilience by a fair margin. I mean, that annihilation barge more or less has a giant "shoot me here" sign with its exposed pilots. I don't really mind the Ghost ark being exposed since that was a re-purposed civilian vehicle, but things like the Triarch Stalker and the Annihilation barges are dedicated military vehicles. Put a hatch over it for Void Dragon's sake.
I would also like to see more strange war-machines and contraptions, the more B-Movie sci-fi the better. Because SCIENCE!
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I would like the Triarch part of Triarch Stalker to be dropped. It doesn't make that much sense to me that a walker like that can only be fielded by members of the triarch.
Maybe the Triarch Stalker can be an upgrade, granting it an extra hull point or something.
Also, closed cockpits on the flyers. It doesn't make sense rules wise, and it looks ridiculous.
Speaking of closed tops, you'd thing that a powerful and ancient race of aliens would work out that putting a layer of metal over the exposed parts of a vehicle would increase it's resilience by a fair margin. I mean, that annihilation barge more or less has a giant "shoot me here" sign with its exposed pilots.
I would also like to see more strange war-machines and contraptions, the more B-Movie sci-fi the better.
Because SCIENCE!
I guess you forgot about Quantum shielding, but I must admit some of the designs seem a little bit weird especially with the night/doom scythe pilot just sticking out like a sore thumb. An ascetic change I would like to see is to make them more like some of the Adeptus Mechincus (I apologize if I misspelt that) in that the operators are part of the machine, instead of just having them connected to it.
Even with quantum shielding, it's just strange to see so many open topped vehicles. I can understand Dark Eldar having open topped vehicles, since they need a way to enter and leave their craft easily, but with necrons it's just...odd.
I suppose it's for balance reasons, but still. Merging the pilots with the machines would fix that problem, in a way. That way, it becomes less "shoot our pilots" and more "shoot just another part of the vehicle"
Jaceevoke wrote: I guess you forgot about Quantum shielding, but I must admit some of the designs seem a little bit weird especially with the night/doom scythe pilot just sticking out like a sore thumb. An ascetic change I would like to see is to make them more like some of the Adeptus Mechincus (I apologize if I misspelt that) in that the operators are part of the machine, instead of just having them connected to it.
Always seemed rather silly to me that the Necron pilots are physically hooked up to their vehicles yet still need to operate control consoles and push knobs around to do sh*t with them.
Moreover, given the extent of their autonomous AI capabilities it also seems rather pointless to even bother with pilots in the first place...
Heavy Destroyers really, really need a rework. Necrons are low on high strength firepower because of the incredible cost to field it. Doomscythes, Doomsday Arks, and Heavy Destroyers are all very pricey. I don't expect all of them to be properly repaired, but if one could function reasonably well (my vote is heavy destroyers with a new non-centaur body style), I would be pumped. A new model for the Heavy Destroyer opens up the opportunity for new tech as well, I'd love some new toys.
Sigvatr wrote: Just reduce its cost or increase its stats to W2.
I agree with giving it two wounds. I mean, look at the size of it; there's no way a model that bulky is no more resistant than the much smaller lychguard.
Of course, that would mean giving the Destroyer Lord 4W for consistency's sake. Though and additional wound and T6 would compensate for it's lack of SW
What about Kutlakh the World Killer? With his Ap 2 ID weapon, the fact that he reduces his opponents weapon skill, fear (okay maybe that isn't all that good), and fearless. I don't really run CC armies so maybe I don't know what your suppose to look for in a CC guy, but he is durable has a three up invuln, can take a CCB for quickly getting across the board or he can deepstrike with a cryptek.
Why? Because they have no badass melee units (wraiths are closest) and NO good CC characters.
And thus you deserve to keep something because of bad internal balance on all those melee HQ's, and units?
No. This is bad cause and effect.
Before 6th edition CCB's were all the rage, destroyer-wraith combos, and even then you still have a unit you can plonk in there and use effectively as melee, and the best weapon at the cheapest cost ingame (warscythe.)
Try a better argument.
they dont have a dragio, mephiston, a calgar or even something as good as the terrible tyranid prime.
All of which are terrible now in 6th edition, should they be compensated because MSS is still awesome?
C'tan Shards get access to - or by default get - some sort of movement boost ability. Maybe Moulder of Worlds allows them to bend space to their whim allowing them to move 12" instead of 6" And give them back their T8 (in all honesty, if WraithLords were dropped to T7 too, I probably wouldn't be irked by the C'tan Shards' T7)
Destroyers gain +1W or drop in price
Destroyers basic gun returns to that of old [36" S6 AP4 Assault 3(?)]
Destroyers gain access to a wider spectrum of weapons i.e. Tesla, Particle, Heat Ray
Wraiths become necrons - as opposed to canopteks - again and drop to 1W
Monolith gets back S9 particle whip and center of blast template is AP1 or 2
I wouldn't mind an MSS change, but I like it as it is. The 2D6 at -2 Ld test is fine by me.
Flayed Ones get their oldcron profile along with attack stat boost.
Praetorians get 2A base
Lychguard can have either a 2+ and Warscythe or 3+/4++ and power weapon
Give the Gauntlet of Fire AP3 in CC
Drop Tesla Destructor to Heavy 3.
Give Annihilation Barges the ability to swap out the Tesla Destructor with Particle Shredder or Heavy Gauss Cannon and the Tesla Cannon with Gauss Cannon or Particle Beamer
Trade out Tesla Destructors with Particle Shredders on the Doom Scythe and make the death ray a purchasable upgrade making it fulfill the role of a Bomber (in hindsight, more like Close Air Support akin to the A-10 Thunderbolt) rather than a Fighter Bomber.
Fix the Chronotek. Only having one genuinely worthwhile piece of equipment - chronometron - makes me sad
Give Obyron a 4++. Just Because.
Allow Overlords to purchase one piece of Cryptek wargear not including their staves, staffs, lances, default wargear thing-a-ma-jig.
Before 6th edition CCB's were all the rage, destroyer-wraith combos, and even then you still have a unit you can plonk in there and use effectively as melee, and the best weapon at the cheapest cost ingame (warscythe.)
Though to be fair, it's 10 points over the Staff of Light which is already included in the cost of the Lord/Overlord. (So only seems really cheap)
I do think the extra strength should go or it should get boosted up to 15/20 points, though
A lot of superb ideas going on here - wanted to add a few of my own:
Option to take a wraith/destroyer/flayer Overlord/Phaeron with named HQ's of each.
C'Tan buffed - Perhaps including stat bonuses depending on loadout they come with.
Pariahs included as an elite, honor guard, or Lychguard-upgrade option.
Initiative of Lychguard/Praetorian/OL improved. If your bodies and minds are superior, why do they still react so slowly. This would also solve the problem of MSS being 90% a requirement and letting it be relegated back to an "artifact" option.
Cryptek stats buffed inline to Orpheus norms.
Flayed ones gain initiative (insane, Edward scissor hands monstrosities that move... like ... molass - ... es ...) and rules designed to get them in the middle of enemy ranks unsuspectingly. (Not too bright at 3:00 A.M.)
Praetorians lose the unwieldy rule on RoC.
Command Barges increase AV to 12. (You're housing the most important guy in your entire army.. and you have the resiliency of a flier.) Quantum shielding still pops easily, but at least now it makes sense and you're not fragile to the plethora of ranged dakka in 6th.
Chapter Tactics - C'Tan style! Since each C'Tan controlled his own mini-empire of Necron slaves, it makes sense that their would influence their armies. Why not?
I want to say another Canoptek unit, but that's getting to the point of being overdone. We *do* have very few Canopteks meant for battle though - excluding Orpheus I don't think any are specifically mentioned as being intended for outside the tomb. Hmmm..
Ferros wrote: A lot of superb ideas going on here - wanted to add a few of my own:
Option to take a wraith/destroyer/flayer Overlord/Phaeron with named HQ's of each.
C'Tan buffed - Perhaps including stat bonuses depending on loadout they come with.
Pariahs included as an elite, honor guard, or Lychguard-upgrade option.
Initiative of Lychguard/Praetorian/OL improved. If your bodies and minds are superior, why do they still react so slowly. This would also solve the problem of MSS being 90% a requirement and letting it be relegated back to an "artifact" option.
Cryptek stats buffed inline to Orpheus norms.
Flayed ones gain initiative (insane, Edward scissor hands monstrosities that move... like ... molass - ... es ...) and rules designed to get them in the middle of enemy ranks unsuspectingly. (Not too bright at 3:00 A.M.)
Praetorians lose the unwieldy rule on RoC.
Command Barges increase AV to 12. (You're housing the most important guy in your entire army.. and you have the resiliency of a flier.) Quantum shielding still pops easily, but at least now it makes sense and you're not fragile to the plethora of ranged dakka in 6th.
Chapter Tactics - C'Tan style! Since each C'Tan controlled his own mini-empire of Necron slaves, it makes sense that their would influence their armies. Why not?
I want to say another Canoptek unit, but that's getting to the point of being overdone. We *do* have very few Canopteks meant for battle though - excluding Orpheus I don't think any are specifically mentioned as being intended for outside the tomb. Hmmm..
Only critique is the C'tan style chapter tactics. For better or worse, C'tan are now pokemon slaves of the Necrons. If anything, there should be a set of big dynasties that influence it based on which you pick (that said you will probably never get it as IG didn't despite deserving it more than SM and in fact lost much of their fluff for any army besides Cadians or Catachans). Besides that, I'm liking quite a couple of ideas. Not quite sure about the command barges. Don't know how good or bad they are. I'd like the return of Pariahs, revision to MSS or removal of it entirely, an update to the warscythe to rebalance it, Flayed one buff to make them capable of getting into the enemy (sadly no assault otu of DS but somethign to help them survive a turn and get that assault in the next turn for sure), C'tan buff. Give them T7 minimum perhaps? Admittedly they are shards so 6 isn't really that bad but I can't help but like T7 a bit more. Give them several weapon load outs and some ways to be extra mobile and move across the battlefield faster than 6 inches + run. Wraiths get some nerf to them in some way or form. Buff Monoliths. Not quite sure how but I'd like a large S9 blast that is ap1 in the center. Feels very high tech and nasty. Buff praetors in some way. Nerf the flying bakery, at the moment it's too good. Chronotech needs a buff, most of the hqs need a buff.
Disagree with Chapter Tactics for C'tan. They are actual gods and not interested in their mindless minions at all. They are tools for them, mere peasants, while the C'tan hold limitless power and do their own thing. They aren't leaders in a sense of someone leading a squad, they are leaders in a sense of slavers.
Ferros wrote: A lot of superb ideas going on here - wanted to add a few of my own:
Option to take a wraith/destroyer/flayer Overlord/Phaeron with named HQ's of each.
C'Tan buffed - Perhaps including stat bonuses depending on loadout they come with.
Pariahs included as an elite, honor guard, or Lychguard-upgrade option.
Initiative of Lychguard/Praetorian/OL improved. If your bodies and minds are superior, why do they still react so slowly. This would also solve the problem of MSS being 90% a requirement and letting it be relegated back to an "artifact" option.
Cryptek stats buffed inline to Orpheus norms.
Flayed ones gain initiative (insane, Edward scissor hands monstrosities that move... like ... molass - ... es ...) and rules designed to get them in the middle of enemy ranks unsuspectingly. (Not too bright at 3:00 A.M.)
Praetorians lose the unwieldy rule on RoC.
Command Barges increase AV to 12. (You're housing the most important guy in your entire army.. and you have the resiliency of a flier.) Quantum shielding still pops easily, but at least now it makes sense and you're not fragile to the plethora of ranged dakka in 6th.
Chapter Tactics - C'Tan style! Since each C'Tan controlled his own mini-empire of Necron slaves, it makes sense that their would influence their armies. Why not?
I want to say another Canoptek unit, but that's getting to the point of being overdone. We *do* have very few Canopteks meant for battle though - excluding Orpheus I don't think any are specifically mentioned as being intended for outside the tomb. Hmmm..
C'tan buff. Give them T7 minimum perhaps? Admittedly they are shards so 6 isn't really that bad but I can't help but like T7 a bit more.
C'tan shards already have T7. They have 4 wounds as well.
The problem is that their invul is terrible; 4+ isn't going to protect much.
Ferros wrote: A lot of superb ideas going on here - wanted to add a few of my own:
Option to take a wraith/destroyer/flayer Overlord/Phaeron with named HQ's of each.
C'Tan buffed - Perhaps including stat bonuses depending on loadout they come with.
Pariahs included as an elite, honor guard, or Lychguard-upgrade option.
Initiative of Lychguard/Praetorian/OL improved. If your bodies and minds are superior, why do they still react so slowly. This would also solve the problem of MSS being 90% a requirement and letting it be relegated back to an "artifact" option.
Cryptek stats buffed inline to Orpheus norms.
Flayed ones gain initiative (insane, Edward scissor hands monstrosities that move... like ... molass - ... es ...) and rules designed to get them in the middle of enemy ranks unsuspectingly. (Not too bright at 3:00 A.M.)
Praetorians lose the unwieldy rule on RoC.
Command Barges increase AV to 12. (You're housing the most important guy in your entire army.. and you have the resiliency of a flier.) Quantum shielding still pops easily, but at least now it makes sense and you're not fragile to the plethora of ranged dakka in 6th.
Chapter Tactics - C'Tan style! Since each C'Tan controlled his own mini-empire of Necron slaves, it makes sense that their would influence their armies. Why not?
I want to say another Canoptek unit, but that's getting to the point of being overdone. We *do* have very few Canopteks meant for battle though - excluding Orpheus I don't think any are specifically mentioned as being intended for outside the tomb. Hmmm..
C'tan buff. Give them T7 minimum perhaps? Admittedly they are shards so 6 isn't really that bad but I can't help but like T7 a bit more.
C'tan shards already have T7. They have 4 wounds as well.
The problem is that their invul is terrible; 4+ isn't going to protect much.
I like the option for 'tiered' C'tan, where smaller shards are weaker but still potent MC's, but you can get up to like 3++ save C'tan with strong necrodermis 2+ at higher tiers.
Representing the smallest shards being not as many, versus the tiered where they have many shards gathered.
Ferros wrote: A lot of superb ideas going on here - wanted to add a few of my own:
Option to take a wraith/destroyer/flayer Overlord/Phaeron with named HQ's of each.
C'Tan buffed - Perhaps including stat bonuses depending on loadout they come with.
Pariahs included as an elite, honor guard, or Lychguard-upgrade option.
Initiative of Lychguard/Praetorian/OL improved. If your bodies and minds are superior, why do they still react so slowly. This would also solve the problem of MSS being 90% a requirement and letting it be relegated back to an "artifact" option.
Cryptek stats buffed inline to Orpheus norms.
Flayed ones gain initiative (insane, Edward scissor hands monstrosities that move... like ... molass - ... es ...) and rules designed to get them in the middle of enemy ranks unsuspectingly. (Not too bright at 3:00 A.M.)
Praetorians lose the unwieldy rule on RoC.
Command Barges increase AV to 12. (You're housing the most important guy in your entire army.. and you have the resiliency of a flier.) Quantum shielding still pops easily, but at least now it makes sense and you're not fragile to the plethora of ranged dakka in 6th.
Chapter Tactics - C'Tan style! Since each C'Tan controlled his own mini-empire of Necron slaves, it makes sense that their would influence their armies. Why not?
I want to say another Canoptek unit, but that's getting to the point of being overdone. We *do* have very few Canopteks meant for battle though - excluding Orpheus I don't think any are specifically mentioned as being intended for outside the tomb. Hmmm..
C'tan buff. Give them T7 minimum perhaps? Admittedly they are shards so 6 isn't really that bad but I can't help but like T7 a bit more.
C'tan shards already have T7. They have 4 wounds as well.
The problem is that their invul is terrible; 4+ isn't going to protect much.
I like the option for 'tiered' C'tan, where smaller shards are weaker but still potent MC's, but you can get up to like 3++ save C'tan with strong necrodermis 2+ at higher tiers.
Representing the smallest shards being not as many, versus the tiered where they have many shards gathered.
Fluff wise, it could represent a C'tan that is closer to completion.
a C'tan with 1 shard - weakest rank
a C'tan with 2 shards - slightly stronger
a C'tan with 5 shards - everyone dies.
There is a precedent for this idea in the form of the Transcendent C'tan. From lexi -
Transcendent C'tan's are C'tan's bursting with pure elemental energy. Each Transcendent C'tan is a collection of anywhere between a dozen and a hundred lesser shards, and its power far surpasses the sum of its parts.
1) Swap their default loadout around. A bodyguard and defensive unit should start with defensive options
2) Change their wargear options to "any C'tan in the squad may replace his shield and hyperphase sword with a warscythe at +5 pts per model"
3) Add this option - "A lychguard that has taken a warscythe may buy sempiternal weave at +15 points per model"
4) Add this rule - Sworn to Protect "A unit of Lychguard becomes stubborn when an Overlord joins the unit. In addition, if the Overlord has the phaeron upgrade, they gain Fearless"
5) Add this rule - Champion of the Hierarchy "If any character models are in a unit of Lychguard who has been locked in combat, a Lychguard model may choose to accept a challenge instead of a character model. The character model may fight normally, without any penalty for delegating the challenge to an underling. Note that the Lychguard may not make challenges - that honor goes to their superiors."
Sigvatr wrote: Disagree with Chapter Tactics for C'tan. They are actual gods and not interested in their mindless minions at all. They are tools for them, mere peasants, while the C'tan hold limitless power and do their own thing. They aren't leaders in a sense of someone leading a squad, they are leaders in a sense of slavers.
C'Tan do seem to have a big impact on their followers.
Void Dragon - Pariahs
Flayed Ones
Etc.
It was just a thought, but, clearly they do play a role in how their "followers" operated.
Sigvatr wrote: Disagree with Chapter Tactics for C'tan. They are actual gods and not interested in their mindless minions at all. They are tools for them, mere peasants, while the C'tan hold limitless power and do their own thing. They aren't leaders in a sense of someone leading a squad, they are leaders in a sense of slavers.
C'Tan do seem to have a big impact on their followers.
Void Dragon - Pariahs
Flayed Ones
Etc.
It was just a thought, but, clearly they do play a role in how their "followers" operated.
Sadly not anymore. C'tan became pokemon. It's more about the necron lord nowadays.
Fluff wise, it could represent a C'tan that is closer to completion.
a C'tan with 1 shard - weakest rank
a C'tan with 2 shards - slightly stronger
a C'tan with 5 shards - everyone dies.
There is a precedent for this idea in the form of the Transcendent C'tan.
From lexi -
Transcendent C'tan's are C'tan's bursting with pure elemental energy. Each Transcendent C'tan is a collection of anywhere between a dozen and a hundred lesser shards, and its power far surpasses the sum of its parts.
1) Swap their default loadout around. A bodyguard and defensive unit should start with defensive options
2) Change their wargear options to "any C'tan in the squad may replace his shield and hyperphase sword with a warscythe at +5 pts per model"
3) Add this option - "A lychguard that has taken a warscythe may buy sempiternal weave at +15 points per model"
4) Add this rule - Sworn to Protect "A unit of Lychguard becomes stubborn when an Overlord joins the unit. In addition, if the Overlord has the phaeron upgrade, they gain Fearless"
5) Add this rule - Champion of the Hierarchy "If any character models are in a unit of Lychguard who has been locked in combat, a Lychguard model may choose to accept a challenge instead of a character model. The character model may fight normally, without any penalty for delegating the challenge to an underling. Note that the Lychguard may not make challenges - that honor goes to their superiors."
STOP IT GUYS! Y'all are making me want to build a necron army. Stop it now! (man I'm loving the ideas for the C'tan. It's kinda nice to see their derpy shard theme being updated to something rather different. I really wouldn't mind the concept of tiered C'tan. It'd certainly make them different. Perhaps the weakest is only T6, the next T7, the next T8 and some other upgrades. Or not, perhaps if you buy enough upgrades (shards) you get upped to the next level of a model? Dunno, probably a bad idea but it's entertaining to think about.
Why? Because they have no badass melee units (wraiths are closest) and NO good CC characters.
And thus you deserve to keep something because of bad internal balance on all those melee HQ's, and units?
No. This is bad cause and effect.
Before 6th edition CCB's were all the rage, destroyer-wraith combos, and even then you still have a unit you can plonk in there and use effectively as melee, and the best weapon at the cheapest cost ingame (warscythe.)
Try a better argument.
they dont have a dragio, mephiston, a calgar or even something as good as the terrible tyranid prime.
All of which are terrible now in 6th edition, should they be compensated because MSS is still awesome?
it was not an argument sir, so if you are suspecting such, perhaps you are reminded of some other situation - I was not trying to start one, but just offer an explanation of why they are in the codex - if you want to say its bad internal design, thats fine, if you want to say its good design, thats fine too.
However, your reaction is the EXACT reason I would wishlist them away - players who do not understand why they are there, or how to easily defeat them grief necron players for using them.
and defending the limited design in the book, is not a happy way to play...
it was not an argument sir, so if you are suspecting such, perhaps you are reminded of some other situation - I was not trying to start one, but just offer an explanation of why they are in the codex - if you want to say its bad internal design, thats fine, if you want to say its good design, thats fine too.
However, your reaction is the EXACT reason I would wishlist them away - players who do not understand why they are there, or how to easily defeat them grief necron players for using them.
and defending the limited design in the book, is not a happy way to play...
Players who do not understand why they are there, you don't need to be insulting, their purpose is pretty easy to tell.
To gimp melee beatsticks at a cheap, affordable cost for up to 0-5 units, or a DL and wraiths.
The best way to deal with them is simply by shooting that's all, don't take things that do well in melee and simply take buffers as the current meta dictates, because why go through the hassle of having your stronger, far more expensive beatstick that doesn't buffer the rest of your army beaten by wraiths and a destroyer lord with MSS?
When something is counter-intuitive to the point of countering quite a few things within the game, I dislike them, the skulls for Inquisitor's that are now flooding the field with anti-scout and infiltrators for cheap would be another such thing.
Sigvatr wrote: Disagree with Chapter Tactics for C'tan. They are actual gods and not interested in their mindless minions at all. They are tools for them, mere peasants, while the C'tan hold limitless power and do their own thing. They aren't leaders in a sense of someone leading a squad, they are leaders in a sense of slavers.
C'Tan do seem to have a big impact on their followers.
Void Dragon - Pariahs
Flayed Ones
Etc.
It was just a thought, but, clearly they do play a role in how their "followers" operated.
That's been retconned.
C'tan are now slaves to the necrons.
Pariahs are gone, apparently. Wiped out from the lore
Flayed Ones are the result of a C'tan curse, not a blessing.
As a person who plays Necrons AND other armies, the space zombies need it.
Why? Because they have no badass melee units (wraiths are closest) and NO good CC characters.
None, natta, zipola.
they dont have a dragio, mephiston, a calgar or even something as good as the terrible tyranid prime.
They got jack and diddly, and jack left town.
The MSS are their way of making a strong CChq choice.
Is it incredibly annoying (yes). But so is fighting any of the really nasty named guys I mentioned.
Anyway, I would be fine to see MSS go away...if the crons got some decent CC units...maybe what the lychguard or flayed ones are supposed to be.
You do realize that with MSS and a Warscythe, a base Necron Overlord is a match even for massive beatsticks like Abbadon and Lysander, right? People need to get over this notion that Necrons can't hang in assault. Against top teir assault armies (namely Daemons or Nids), sure, they will likely get wiped out, but against everybody else, Necrons can easily hold their own. As it is, Necrons have so many deterents against assault them, its absurd. Lightning shields, AP2 flamer crypteks, tesla (oh, each successful snapfire is 3 hits), and MSS just makes it not even worth the trouble to try and assault them. Throw in the fact that GW refuses to FAQ Sweeping Advance vs Everliving, and I dare say Necrons have little to fear from most armies' assaulting them.
There will not be mss and a warscythe in every necron unit. Yes, every generic overlord and destroyer lord can take that for a small cost. However just throwing lords and flamers into every unit require multiple courts and gets very expensive and takes away high strength shooting for not taking harbringers of destruction. Yes, you will have to bring actual CC units to deal with warscythes and mss, and even then they are not pushovers.
MSS may be annoying, but I actually do not think they are unfair even if they are good. Either swamp the unit in bodies and make someone other than abbadon take the challenge and break the unit or gun it down, just assaulting it with whatever is not viable though. Not even other dedicated CC units can count on just murdering an overlord. I do not get why people feel entitled to be able to simply charge and mow down a medium ranged army with whatever while suffering little to no losses just because everything hits at low initiative.
C'tan are now slaves to the necrons.
Pariahs are gone, apparently. Wiped out from the lore
Flayed Ones are the result of a C'tan curse, not a blessing.
No it hasn't - the C'Tan still existed, and they still had an effect even if its no longer on-going. Orpheus shows us that things such as the Flayer virus have warped the entire Dynasty.
Likewise, when free, the Necrons may simply be utilizing the technology and tactics they were most used to. It's not like they all randomly got together and standardized things.
Pariahs were not wiped from fluff, they were simply not mentioned - this has been discussed.
I'm well aware that Flayed Ones exist due to a certain Dynasty popping their Big Brother, but, it proves a point. Even if we want to pretend that all the Dynasties magically homogenized after killing their Gods - despite evidence to the contrary - C'Tan ARE able to inflict chronic conditions on their followers. I'm sure there are other possibilities of this occurring that "death". In which case, a lot of C'Tan died. Come up with something fancy.
Ratflinger wrote: I do not get why people feel entitled to be able to simply charge and mow down a medium ranged army with whatever while suffering little to no losses just because everything hits at low initiative.
That is supposed to be the armies weakness!
Necrons are supposed to be the inexorable tide. Tough as nails with incredible strength. Their weakness is hitting them hard and fast. MSS take the major weakness of the army, high I powerful melee, and largely invalidates it. You keep saying hordes are the answer, when it has been presented repeatedly that tesla and a number of other options in the Cron dex largely mitigate the impact of hordes.
Additionally, the issue is not EVERY unit having MSS, it is the units that do. Those units become problems with no answer. Problems with no answer make for unfun scenarios. Unfun scenarios make unfun games.
Take Tyranids. Their weakness has always been synapse. Remove the synapse and you take down the army. MSS for them would be eternal warrior and a 3+ fnp for a slight cost on synapse models.
But please, keep up the "l2p noobs" attitude. It really endears you to us.
There is an answer. Place more than the beatstick character in base contact with the MSS bearer, or keep him out of base contact and kill the underlings to get CC resolution. Besides, it wasn't so much high initiative melee units that are the necrons, but rather sweep. MSS does not protect against that, and even if it did take out the IC, it's still completely possible to force that sweep test on them. It only affects 1 model after all.
I admit though that the damage effect is a bit excessive. That is not needed.
Ratflinger wrote: I do not get why people feel entitled to be able to simply charge and mow down a medium ranged army with whatever while suffering little to no losses just because everything hits at low initiative.
But please, keep up the "l2p noobs" attitude. It really endears you to us.
That is not really what I said. The necron player will have to move up close enough to be threatened by assault units, and for the entire army to fall over when assaulted is not reasonable. Hitting individual units very hard and forcing leadership tests is reasonable, just assaulting with whatever and getting off scot free is not.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: There is an answer.
Place more than the beatstick character in base contact with the MSS bearer, or keep him out of base contact and kill the underlings to get CC resolution.
Besides, it wasn't so much high initiative melee units that are the necrons, but rather sweep. MSS does not protect against that, and even if it did take out the IC, it's still completely possible to force that sweep test on them.
It only affects 1 model after all.
I admit though that the damage effect is a bit excessive. That is not needed.
What do people think about the current power level of Necrons? Are they overpowered? Are they underpowered? Are they right where they should be?
Obviously, the opinion about overall power level bears upon wishlisting.
I think they are right where they should be.
They have the power as a singular codex to be barely competitive at the top levels without any resort to broken/unfair combos or force multipliers and without ruining anyone else's party. Codexes that are more powerful should probably be nerfed down to the necron level, or at least nerfed downward with some reference to the necron/space marine level as a good balancing point. Also, I think whatever nerfs they get in newer editions of the codex should be compensated by buffs elsewhere and vice versa.
I don't mind if they want to nerf wraiths and MSS and buff praetorians or destroyers as a replacement. Just hit the same power level and balance, please. The necron codex is a codex that hits the sweet spot, and it should be recognized as such, in my opinion.
I find necrons are really good but not quit op, but if they encounter vehicle(mech) armies than they do become op, but with 6th edition few armies do mech. They are great counters to most armies that rely on mech but suffer to MC(unless in assault), and are decent at everything else, if they had a slight nerf to their ability to kill vehicles and a slight points decrease across the board (other than Mss/war scythes, flyers, and their dedicated transports). (ps the quantum shield is worth its weight in gold in a edition that prioritizes strength 6/7 shooting. (trust me i spent turns trying to bring one down with my army and I just don't have the luck to do it. (str 9 ap 1 lance shots x2 and multiple meltas and still pop 1-2 by the end of the game at max.) BUt over all they are great as said, it would be great if all the rules got clarified.
Depends on whether you refer to TruCron fluff or the crap Matt Ward came up with. Your choice.
You mean the Mary Sue'tan fluff with the 'Metal Tyranid' hordes that will purge the galaxy by removing all thought, and order to purge the Warp?
Matt wards may be slightly meh in area's, but the fluff is still far better then the crap that was the Necrons 'Never lose no matter what despite even TYRANIDS having some sort of losses'
Depends on whether you refer to TruCron fluff or the crap Matt Ward came up with. Your choice.
You mean the Mary Sue'tan fluff with the 'Metal Tyranid' hordes that will purge the galaxy by removing all thought, and order to purge the Warp?
Matt wards may be slightly meh in area's, but the fluff is still far better then the crap that was the Necrons 'Never lose no matter what despite even TYRANIDS having some sort of losses'
Depends on whether you refer to TruCron fluff or the crap Matt Ward came up with. Your choice.
You mean the Mary Sue'tan fluff with the 'Metal Tyranid' hordes that will purge the galaxy by removing all thought, and order to purge the Warp?
Matt wards may be slightly meh in area's, but the fluff is still far better then the crap that was the Necrons 'Never lose no matter what despite even TYRANIDS having some sort of losses'
Only in your opinion.
Really, is that your only comment? It's in everyone's opinion, kinda redundant to point that out.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: There is an answer.
Place more than the beatstick character in base contact with the MSS bearer, or keep him out of base contact and kill the underlings to get CC resolution.
Besides, it wasn't so much high initiative melee units that are the necrons, but rather sweep. MSS does not protect against that, and even if it did take out the IC, it's still completely possible to force that sweep test on them.
It only affects 1 model after all.
I admit though that the damage effect is a bit excessive. That is not needed.
Precisely. Good post.
Well unless you play chaos or the neuron lord declares a challenge
Face it, MSS are too good along with the warscythe, aircrons, and wraiths. That said, although the neuron codex has surprisingly lived well, it has its duds. So I have to ask. How does everyone think Flayed Ones to be improved. They certainly won't get turn 1 assaults so the question becomes what else and, preferably, something fluffy. I had a plain one of only snap fires but I don't really think that fits them too well.
As per fluff. Tough one. Old fluff was underdeveloped and bad. Necrons were Egyptian terminators that followed extremely mighty space creatures that are stars that existed in game. Honestly, I'm going to say I didn't like the true C'tan in games. That felt more like Apoc and even then "gods" being deployed felt like too much. Another problem was C'tan were basically behind everything and the cause of everything which was getting annoying. Along with that, they became metal nids. An army of no emotions harvesting and conception ally perhaps a bit too strong fluff wise. Still, they had a lovecraftian horror feel to them. Then newcron fluff hit. I got nothing on this. On the one hand, C'tan aren't the schemers of everything and seeing shards on the field makes more sense and they managed to remove the self from the metal nid feel. At the same time, they gained more population, star destroying inventions, and ludicrous extra strength making them more numerous and strong. Finally, there is the necrom brofist scene. If anything, I'd at least like fluff of some dynasties that are still truly slaves of their C'tan that are working to put it back together. Also please return Pariahs.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: There is an answer.
Place more than the beatstick character in base contact with the MSS bearer, or keep him out of base contact and kill the underlings to get CC resolution.
Besides, it wasn't so much high initiative melee units that are the necrons, but rather sweep. MSS does not protect against that, and even if it did take out the IC, it's still completely possible to force that sweep test on them.
It only affects 1 model after all.
I admit though that the damage effect is a bit excessive. That is not needed.
Precisely. Good post.
Well unless you play chaos or the neuron lord declares a challenge
Face it, MSS are too good along with the warscythe, aircrons, and wraiths. That said, although the neuron codex has surprisingly lived well, it has its duds. So I have to ask. How does everyone think Flayed Ones to be improved. They certainly won't get turn 1 assaults so the question becomes what else and, preferably, something fluffy. I had a plain one of only snap fires but I don't really think that fits them too well.
Well lets see, they are obviously getting fear because of the whole 'draped in human skin'
I'd say the matter becomes one of whether or not that should buff them, they should get the flensing scarabs and gain Shred, slightly cheaper cost, and maybe buffed up S5, with maybe AP4/AP3 claws as a buyable option for the squad.
Or maybe the flayer virus 'mutates' their body a bit and they become T5 and gain a 4++ from an advanced stage of the C'tan flayer virus mutating their bodies beyond normal.
StarTrotter wrote: Face it, MSS are too good along with the warscythe, aircrons, and wraiths. That said, although the neuron codex has surprisingly lived well, it has its duds. So I have to ask. How does everyone think Flayed Ones to be improved. They certainly won't get turn 1 assaults so the question becomes what else and, preferably, something fluffy. I had a plain one of only snap fires but I don't really think that fits them too well.
After reading on the thread I'm hearing a lot of crying of that Necron players "need" MSS.
No. you don't.
Its an option you can take not something that comes as standard in Wargear, its not forced upon you.
The fact is you want it, and because most people take it for its cheap costs its been taken as a crutch unit.
That being said if MSS were to be taken out I would want to see praetorians getting a buff in the form of a better RP and Flayed ones to get shred, fear, AP 3 (if they don't already have it) shrouded, and can only snap fire at minimum composed units, with maybe a 4+ or 3+ RP.
And Lychguard should have 2+ Sv for their points costs.
happygolucky wrote: The fact is you want it, and because most people take it for its cheap costs its been taken as a crutch unit.
Meh...MSS is a gimmick (a very good gimmick). Once a particular opponent gets hurt by it once, the jig is up. They'll see it coming a mile away next game and prepare accordingly.
happygolucky wrote: The fact is you want it, and because most people take it for its cheap costs its been taken as a crutch unit.
Meh...MSS is a gimmick (a very good gimmick). Once a particular opponent gets hurt by it once, the jig is up. They'll see it coming a mile away next game and prepare accordingly.
Whilst I agree in terms of competitiveness, what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.
The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.
happygolucky wrote: what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.
The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.
Oh yeah, EVERY time I've successfully pulled off MSS, I get a sour face from my opponent. Then I think about the 3 Imperial Knights he had no problem ramming down my throat, or this or that spam list, or some ungodly tank out of the Escalation book, and I don't feel too bad about using something like MSS.
happygolucky wrote: what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.
The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.
Oh yeah, EVERY time I've successfully pulled off MSS, I get a sour face from my opponent. Then I think about the 3 Imperial Knights he had no problem ramming down my throat, or this or that spam list, or some ungodly tank out of the Escalation book, and I don't feel too bad about using something like MSS.
And then I remember Necron's have one of the best Escalation units in the Transcendent C'tan, so I somewhat think the same thing.
happygolucky wrote: what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.
The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.
Oh yeah, EVERY time I've successfully pulled off MSS, I get a sour face from my opponent. Then I think about the 3 Imperial Knights he had no problem ramming down my throat, or this or that spam list, or some ungodly tank out of the Escalation book, and I don't feel too bad about using something like MSS.
So basically your blowing a lot out of proportion to justify MSS?
Okay then. I did say that it the CC armies were for people who were in for a fun time in my post.
If your opponents are shoving 3 Knights and Escalation down your throat during non-tournament games, maybe you should have a word and ask them not too?
I'm not sure I'm blowing things out of proportion...I'm not trying to. Just pointing out that in the current overall 40k meta, MSS isn't on anyone's radar that I know personally as an OP option.
As for the 3 Knights...that's only happened once. My friend who did it will 99% likely not throw it at me again, because he could tell it was pretty damn nasty for a friendly game.
jasper76 wrote: I'm not sure I'm blowing things out of proportion...I'm not trying to. Just pointing out that in the current overall 40k meta, MSS isn't on anyone's radar that I know personally as an OP option.
As for the 3 Knights...that's only happened once. My friend who did it will 99% likely not throw it at me again, because he could tell it was pretty damn nasty for a friendly game.
To be fair, that's because almost nobody takes beatsticks or even melee units anymore. The only real ones in competitive are... extremely kitted out DPs, a boomstick LoC although they usually stick to buffing spells and shooting spells... Ummm... the screamerstar can do it well? Granted that army is messy and the weapon not really worth it as 2++ rerollable saves make it basically worthless, seerstar much the same, granted both of these can also deploy excessive amounts of firepower so I can't even say it is close combat more that such a thing is the finishing perk. I really got nothing. The problem comes down to the MSS being a cheap underhanded weapon that always makes people annoyed. Especially Chaos Space Marine players or armies that have to declare/accept challenges no matter the odds. It's an anti-fun weapon that outmodes models that are already considered sub par. It makes a crummy assault unit that specializes in buffing and the sorts into a beast that can beat any enemy and invalidates their attacks for turns whilst you get free shots. Simply put, it's not entertaining and far too good. It needs to either be changed in some way or kicked for good.
Also seems like he did have some problems after the fact.
So then, there's going to be new models released. What does everyone thing it shall be?
StarTrotter wrote: It's an anti-fun weapon that outmodes models that are already considered sub par. It makes a crummy assault unit that specializes in buffing and the sorts into a beast that can beat any enemy and invalidates their attacks for turns whilst you get free shots. Simply put, it's not entertaining and far too good. It needs to either be changed in some way or kicked for good.
Its fun to play with. If the standard you're judging it by is tournament-based, I can understand your point, but IMO I don't want to see it go at all...I could swallow a points increase, but I dont want one of those either!
StarTrotter wrote: So then, there's going to be new models released. What does everyone thing it shall be?
It would be cool if you could build an entire FOC of Canoptek units...no RP.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: 1) Swap their default loadout around. A bodyguard and defensive unit should start with defensive options
2) Change their wargear options to "any C'tan in the squad may replace his shield and hyperphase sword with a warscythe at +5 pts per model"
3) Add this option - "A lychguard that has taken a warscythe may buy sempiternal weave at +15 points per model"
4) Add this rule - Sworn to Protect "A unit of Lychguard becomes stubborn when an Overlord joins the unit. In addition, if the Overlord has the phaeron upgrade, they gain Fearless"
5) Add this rule - Champion of the Hierarchy "If any character models are in a unit of Lychguard who has been locked in combat, a Lychguard model may choose to accept a challenge instead of a character model. The character model may fight normally, without any penalty for delegating the challenge to an underling. Note that the Lychguard may not make challenges - that honor goes to their superiors."
IIRC in the Lychguard's own fluff it was stated that the Lords and Overlords, being rather powerful by their own right, don't really need them so they usually go off independently on the battlefield.
happygolucky wrote: The fact is you want it, and because most people take it for its cheap costs its been taken as a crutch unit.
Meh...MSS is a gimmick (a very good gimmick). Once a particular opponent gets hurt by it once, the jig is up. They'll see it coming a mile away next game and prepare accordingly.
Whilst I agree in terms of competitiveness, what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.
The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.
MSS is trivial to get around even for assault oriented armies- all you have to do is make sure the assault starts on your turn (should be pretty easy for an assault army) and that no high value model is in base contact with the MSS user (just "sacrifice" the lowest value model in your squad to block off the MSS user, or better yet, just don't move anyone into base contact with him). This being your turn, you get to decide at which order MSS/challenge declarations are resolved meaning you can have the MSS go off before challenges are declared.
Even single model units should be able to pull it off without too much trouble (I should know, a Daemon Prince squashed my overlord this way a while back).
And do note that having the assault take place in your turn is only important if you have an IC that must accept challenges, otherwise you can simply refuse or sacrifice a sergeant or somesuch to avoid the risk of having your beatstick turn on you.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: 1) Swap their default loadout around. A bodyguard and defensive unit should start with defensive options
2) Change their wargear options to "any C'tan in the squad may replace his shield and hyperphase sword with a warscythe at +5 pts per model"
3) Add this option - "A lychguard that has taken a warscythe may buy sempiternal weave at +15 points per model"
4) Add this rule - Sworn to Protect "A unit of Lychguard becomes stubborn when an Overlord joins the unit. In addition, if the Overlord has the phaeron upgrade, they gain Fearless"
5) Add this rule - Champion of the Hierarchy "If any character models are in a unit of Lychguard who has been locked in combat, a Lychguard model may choose to accept a challenge instead of a character model. The character model may fight normally, without any penalty for delegating the challenge to an underling. Note that the Lychguard may not make challenges - that honor goes to their superiors."
IIRC in the Lychguard's own fluff it was stated that the Lords and Overlords, being rather powerful by their own right, don't really need them so they usually go off independently on the battlefield.
The codex repeatedly refers to them as body guards and emissaries.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: 1) Swap their default loadout around. A bodyguard and defensive unit should start with defensive options
2) Change their wargear options to "any C'tan in the squad may replace his shield and hyperphase sword with a warscythe at +5 pts per model"
3) Add this option - "A lychguard that has taken a warscythe may buy sempiternal weave at +15 points per model"
4) Add this rule - Sworn to Protect "A unit of Lychguard becomes stubborn when an Overlord joins the unit. In addition, if the Overlord has the phaeron upgrade, they gain Fearless"
5) Add this rule - Champion of the Hierarchy "If any character models are in a unit of Lychguard who has been locked in combat, a Lychguard model may choose to accept a challenge instead of a character model. The character model may fight normally, without any penalty for delegating the challenge to an underling. Note that the Lychguard may not make challenges - that honor goes to their superiors."
IIRC in the Lychguard's own fluff it was stated that the Lords and Overlords, being rather powerful by their own right, don't really need them so they usually go off independently on the battlefield.
The codex repeatedly refers to them as body guards and emissaries.
When dealing with other Necrons and their court intrigues, sure. On the battlefield against inferior races? Not so much.
[EDIT]
Re-read the fluff, I was only half right- they do protect Necron Lords in battle but are also sent into the fray without them in order to serve as lieutenants in situations where the Dynasty does not wish to risk its higher ranking nobles.
StarTrotter wrote: It's an anti-fun weapon that outmodes models that are already considered sub par. It makes a crummy assault unit that specializes in buffing and the sorts into a beast that can beat any enemy and invalidates their attacks for turns whilst you get free shots. Simply put, it's not entertaining and far too good. It needs to either be changed in some way or kicked for good.
Its fun to play with. If the standard you're judging it by is tournament-based, I can understand your point, but IMO I don't want to see it go at all...I could swallow a points increase, but I dont want one of those either!
StarTrotter wrote: So then, there's going to be new models released. What does everyone thing it shall be?
It would be cool if you could build an entire FOC of Canoptek units...no RP.
As fun as me deploying 3 wraithknights against your army or a flyerspam. Which, for me, is actually rather unappealing. I actually shelved my heldrake after two games because I just.... no. It wasn't fun for my friend and it wasn't fun for me. And I'm actually heavily casual. The closest I get to competitive is..... I'll play with a few obliterators and will usually limit my number of mutilators to 0-1 (granted I just honestly don't like the model either). I'd prefer it not to go all the way. It just needs different rules in my personal opinion. Heck, it reducing the initiative of the unit and making him not capable of attacking or something would be entertaining. The biggest problem is that even individuals with a ld of 10 will be hitting them-self 50% of the time and it is worse with units with worse leadership. As per tournaments, it doesn't really mean much because, at the moment, CC just isn't worth it.
I kinda like your Canoptek thing. I'd probably get one lord and have him walking around with his "circus of pets."
CthuluIsSpy wrote: 1) Swap their default loadout around. A bodyguard and defensive unit should start with defensive options
2) Change their wargear options to "any C'tan in the squad may replace his shield and hyperphase sword with a warscythe at +5 pts per model"
3) Add this option - "A lychguard that has taken a warscythe may buy sempiternal weave at +15 points per model"
4) Add this rule - Sworn to Protect "A unit of Lychguard becomes stubborn when an Overlord joins the unit. In addition, if the Overlord has the phaeron upgrade, they gain Fearless"
5) Add this rule - Champion of the Hierarchy "If any character models are in a unit of Lychguard who has been locked in combat, a Lychguard model may choose to accept a challenge instead of a character model. The character model may fight normally, without any penalty for delegating the challenge to an underling. Note that the Lychguard may not make challenges - that honor goes to their superiors."
IIRC in the Lychguard's own fluff it was stated that the Lords and Overlords, being rather powerful by their own right, don't really need them so they usually go off independently on the battlefield.
happygolucky wrote: The fact is you want it, and because most people take it for its cheap costs its been taken as a crutch unit.
Meh...MSS is a gimmick (a very good gimmick). Once a particular opponent gets hurt by it once, the jig is up. They'll see it coming a mile away next game and prepare accordingly.
Whilst I agree in terms of competitiveness, what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.
The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.
MSS is trivial to get around even for assault oriented armies- all you have to do is make sure the assault starts on your turn (should be pretty easy for an assault army) and that no high value model is in base contact with the MSS user (just "sacrifice" the lowest value model in your squad to block off the MSS user, or better yet, just don't move anyone into base contact with him). This being your turn, you get to decide at which order MSS/challenge declarations are resolved meaning you can have the MSS go off before challenges are declared.
Even single model units should be able to pull it off without too much trouble (I should know, a Daemon Prince squashed my overlord this way a while back).
And do note that having the assault take place in your turn is only important if you have an IC that must accept challenges, otherwise you can simply refuse or sacrifice a sergeant or somesuch to avoid the risk of having your beatstick turn on you.
Not quite that easy. It gets harder for elite melee armies, as an example. It also is a problem due to the challenges which automatically put you into base to base contact. This is further made a problem by the Skulltaker, MC, CSM, BT, and I think there's one other SMFW chapter that either must declare/accept challenges or, as they are only a single model, must or else they won't be capable of attacking at all.
Okay wait. how does the MSS/challenge thing function? Because at this point I'm really struggling to get how it functions. My friend always used it in challenges no matter what. Also, if the unit somehow lives a turn you can then have your beatstick forced into a challenge. It wasn't against Necrons, but I can never forget a game I had against Nids. It was a MC and he was going to charge. I let loose a flury of bolter guns before charging the beast. I accepted a challenge and he eventually died. Well guess what, my Chaos Lord then had to accept its challenge and we sat there as he constantly passed his 4++ invuln out of sheer luck. Believe me, that stupid rule really can screw armies over.
StarTrotter wrote: I kinda like your Canoptek thing. I'd probably get one lord and have him walking around with his "circus of pets."
They could give Illumanor Szeras a good update as a Cryptek HQ for something like this. Maybe change Mechanical Augmentation to effect any Canoptek unit, and just change the stat bonuses to +1T, +1BS, or +1S
here could be some kinda dirt cheap troop option like the other codexes have...a Canoptek Automotons or some gak with weak stats and no RP for 4-6p...like cultist/gaunt stats but Init 2
Get some kinda Elite crawler similar to that FW model but smaller scale, comes in 3s or something. And that FW model could be a HS choice, maybe??
StarTrotter wrote: Okay wait. how does the MSS/challenge thing function? Because at this point I'm really struggling to get how it functions. My friend always used it in challenges no matter what.
MSS and challenges happen at the same time. This means whoever's turn it is gets to decide which happens first. A smart player will attempt to ensure that the MSS bearer will only be in contact with expendable models on his turn so he can make MSS go off first, so only a relatively weak model can be affected by it. Then when the challenge happens, the beatstick is still available to try and destroy the MSS bearer, or better yet, an expendable sgt type character is thrown against the mss bearer while the beatstick character wrecks havoc on the unit.
Granted this is not always an option with every list, but mass attacks from non-elite CC units work pretty well also. Failing all that, throw a tarpit or two against it, and focus on the rest of the army.
That's why I think making it a 1-per army artifact is the best solution. It still gives the necrons a counter to single massive beatstick characters, but multiple ways to counter the counter are available. When you have to deal with multiple MSS bearers on the field, it becomes much more difficult to deal with it.
StarTrotter wrote: Okay wait. how does the MSS/challenge thing function? Because at this point I'm really struggling to get how it functions. My friend always used it in challenges no matter what.
MSS and challenges happen at the same time. This means whoever's turn it is gets to decide which happens first. A smart player will attempt to ensure that the MSS bearer will only be in contact with expendable models on his turn so he can make MSS go off first, so only a relatively weak model can be affected by it. Then when the challenge happens, the beatstick is still available to try and destroy the MSS bearer, or better yet, an expendable sgt type character is thrown against the mss bearer while the beatstick character wrecks havoc on the unit.
Granted this is not always an option with every list, but mass attacks from non-elite CC units work pretty well also. Failing all that, throw a tarpit or two against it, and focus on the rest of the army.
That's why I think making it a 1-per army artifact is the best solution. It still gives the necrons a counter to single massive beatstick characters, but multiple ways to counter the counter are available. When you have to deal with multiple MSS bearers on the field, it becomes much more difficult to deal with it.
Well lets see, they are obviously getting fear because of the whole 'draped in human skin'
I'd say the matter becomes one of whether or not that should buff them, they should get the flensing scarabs and gain Shred, slightly cheaper cost, and maybe buffed up S5, with maybe AP4/AP3 claws as a buyable option for the squad.
Or maybe the flayer virus 'mutates' their body a bit and they become T5 and gain a 4++ from an advanced stage of the C'tan flayer virus mutating their bodies beyond normal.
Giving them Fear is purely cosmetic and doesn't account for balance changes as Fear as a rule itself is darn useless. I'd say that the changes made for FO in the FW army book with the weird name are exactly what should be done: moved to Core, granted Rending.
Well lets see, they are obviously getting fear because of the whole 'draped in human skin'
I'd say the matter becomes one of whether or not that should buff them, they should get the flensing scarabs and gain Shred, slightly cheaper cost, and maybe buffed up S5, with maybe AP4/AP3 claws as a buyable option for the squad.
Or maybe the flayer virus 'mutates' their body a bit and they become T5 and gain a 4++ from an advanced stage of the C'tan flayer virus mutating their bodies beyond normal.
Giving them Fear is purely cosmetic and doesn't account for balance changes as Fear as a rule itself is darn useless. I'd say that the changes made for FO in the FW army book with the weird name are exactly what should be done: moved to Core, granted Rending.
Considering how fear was handed out for free in a new supplement, I almost feel like GW might even be realizing how worthless it is.
Oh don't worry it'll just take until they release another SM codex or Necron codex and make one of the special rules Fear as a random warlord trait to fix that all right up.
Necron fluff is pretty much begging for more units with IWND. Heck, given the wolverine esque regenerative abilities repeatedly shown by Necrons I don't think any army is better suited to have units with IWND.
It'd certainly make more fluff sense than Daemon Engines and the Iron Hands patching themselves up via voodoo.
Kain wrote: Necron fluff is pretty much begging for more units with IWND. Heck, given the wolverine esque regenerative abilities repeatedly shown by Necrons I don't think any army is better suited to have units with IWND.
It'd certainly make more fluff sense than Daemon Engines and the Iron Hands patching themselves up via voodoo.
You mean the Daemon Engines which simply repair themselves by devouring things on the field (fluff) and it reconstitutes itself back into their body via the warp.
Kain wrote: Necron fluff is pretty much begging for more units with IWND. Heck, given the wolverine esque regenerative abilities repeatedly shown by Necrons I don't think any army is better suited to have units with IWND.
It'd certainly make more fluff sense than Daemon Engines and the Iron Hands patching themselves up via voodoo.
You mean the Daemon Engines which simply repair themselves by devouring things on the field (fluff) and it reconstitutes itself back into their body via the warp.
Well yes that does make sense but I don't think the Iron Hands get their wolverine powers explained.
If I'm not wrong IWND means that their wounds are healing nearly as fast as they can be made, much like the hulk or wolverine.
Kain wrote: Necron fluff is pretty much begging for more units with IWND. Heck, given the wolverine esque regenerative abilities repeatedly shown by Necrons I don't think any army is better suited to have units with IWND.
It'd certainly make more fluff sense than Daemon Engines and the Iron Hands patching themselves up via voodoo.
Technically, the regenerative nature of living metal is already represented by the RP/EL rules. I suppose vehicles and canopteks could have IWND, but that may be nuts.
Kain wrote: Necron fluff is pretty much begging for more units with IWND. Heck, given the wolverine esque regenerative abilities repeatedly shown by Necrons I don't think any army is better suited to have units with IWND.
It'd certainly make more fluff sense than Daemon Engines and the Iron Hands patching themselves up via voodoo.
Technically, the regenerative nature of living metal is already represented by the RP/EL rules.
I suppose vehicles and canopteks could have IWND, but that may be nuts.
There are many cases of Necrons healing even as they're getting smashed up.
I think it'd make for a good upgrade on Lords or Vehicles.
In any case, the Iron Hands get IWND for free on every vehicle and multiwound model and it hasn't destroyed the Meta.
I don't think MSS should be what people are fixating on about the Necron codex.
Does MSS ruin any army's picnic? No.
Do armies have a way of playing around/nullifying the potency of MSS? Yes.
All codexes have awesome deals. What is important is that those awesome deals don't detract from the balance of the game as a whole (compare MSS to Tau's ability to abuse overwatch)
CronAir lists do seem to ruin some army's picnic. Are Aegis Defense Lines enough to keep them in check? I don't think necessarily anything needs to be done in particular to Night Scythes. I think flyers in general should be nerfed a little. They are too survivable by virtue of just being flyers. Helldrakes vs troops should not be as one-sided a match-up as it is.
happygolucky wrote: The fact is you want it, and because most people take it for its cheap costs its been taken as a crutch unit.
Meh...MSS is a gimmick (a very good gimmick). Once a particular opponent gets hurt by it once, the jig is up. They'll see it coming a mile away next game and prepare accordingly.
Whilst I agree in terms of competitiveness, what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.
The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.
MSS is trivial to get around even for assault oriented armies- all you have to do is make sure the assault starts on your turn (should be pretty easy for an assault army) and that no high value model is in base contact with the MSS user (just "sacrifice" the lowest value model in your squad to block off the MSS user, or better yet, just don't move anyone into base contact with him). This being your turn, you get to decide at which order MSS/challenge declarations are resolved meaning you can have the MSS go off before challenges are declared.
Even single model units should be able to pull it off without too much trouble (I should know, a Daemon Prince squashed my overlord this way a while back).
And do note that having the assault take place in your turn is only important if you have an IC that must accept challenges, otherwise you can simply refuse or sacrifice a sergeant or somesuch to avoid the risk of having your beatstick turn on you.
Whilst I respect this I do have to agree with StarTrotters reply and the fact the Champion of Chaos rule means that if I had a lord and a champ in the same unit in CC, it means that both have to declare a challenge at the same time and then my opponent gets to pick who to accept, which is usually the Lord then he gets a microchip to the face meaning that my opponents farming Slay The Warlord..
Obviously if I am playing challenges wrong then feel free to correct me, as I would love to shove a champ into my opponents face and let my Lord get some reaping done before the next round..
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Bah, you have psychic powers and Abbadon.
Don't chaos have access to biomancy?
Abbadon which requires a vehicular investment that's overpriced and in some meta will explode long before reaching it.
Biomancy isn't taken on sorcerers (too squishy), and DP's are overpriced since they require the black mace, and it's still a crapshoot.
(Now if only we still had Chaos Lords that weren't chapter masters and could become Sorcerer Lords again. )
Abbadon also doesn't really give synergy to the army.
Biomancy isn't worth it on sorcerers and only worth it on DP who can only get a maximum of 2 rolls on biomancy and are only good if costly.
Why did you have to remind me of Sorcerer Lords
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col_impact wrote: I don't think MSS should be what people are fixating on about the Necron codex.
Does MSS ruin any army's picnic? No.
Do armies have a way of playing around/nullifying the potency of MSS? Yes.
All codexes have awesome deals. What is important is that those awesome deals don't detract from the balance of the game as a whole (compare MSS to Tau's ability to abuse overwatch)
CronAir lists do seem to ruin some army's picnic. Are Aegis Defense Lines enough to keep them in check? I don't think necessarily anything needs to be done in particular to Night Scythes. I think flyers in general should be nerfed a little. They are too survivable by virtue of just being flyers. Helldrakes vs troops should not be as one-sided a match-up as it is.
Actually MSS can ruin an army's picnic. Especially in combination with anti-horde weapons. MSS would work fine if it was limited, problem is you can fill a list with it. You are correct that CronAir being as good as it is.... is a problem. Not really flyers in general though. The only real broken/good flyers are the Heldrake, cronair, and maybe the Vendetta (not sure with the update). The rest are good at best, bad at worst.
Obviously if I am playing challenges wrong then feel free to correct me, as I would love to shove a champ into my opponents face and let my Lord get some reaping done before the next round..
Not entirely sure, but if you assault, declare that MSS happens before the challenge and do not have your CC monster in base contact. If the Necron player charge you and challenge, you decide who accepts. That is how I thought it worked at least.
Obviously if I am playing challenges wrong then feel free to correct me, as I would love to shove a champ into my opponents face and let my Lord get some reaping done before the next round..
Not entirely sure, but if you assault, declare that MSS happens before the challenge and do not have your CC monster in base contact. If the Necron player charge you and challenge, you decide who accepts. That is how I thought it worked at least.
It really feels like something that could get into arguments though.
Obviously if I am playing challenges wrong then feel free to correct me, as I would love to shove a champ into my opponents face and let my Lord get some reaping done before the next round..
Not entirely sure, but if you assault, declare that MSS happens before the challenge and do not have your CC monster in base contact. If the Necron player charge you and challenge, you decide who accepts. That is how I thought it worked at least.
Edit: messed up quotes.
Hmmm what does it say in the codex? does it say immediately after charging take the MSS test?
happygolucky wrote: Hmmm what does it say in the codex? does it say immediately after charging take the MSS test?
It's with the same wording as Challenges so the current player can say which goes first. Also, some Necron players tend to forget that MSS affects a RANDOM enemy model in b-2-b. They often claim they can choose to have the sergeant or other special CCW dude attack his own unit.
Yup, MSS could happily go away. It will hurt the Necrons a bit against armies with real CC beatsticks, but quite a few armies have worse "dedicated" CC characters than a loaded Necron Overlord.
Obviously if I am playing challenges wrong then feel free to correct me, as I would love to shove a champ into my opponents face and let my Lord get some reaping done before the next round..
Not entirely sure, but if you assault, declare that MSS happens before the challenge and do not have your CC monster in base contact. If the Necron player charge you and challenge, you decide who accepts. That is how I thought it worked at least.
Edit: messed up quotes.
Hmmm what does it say in the codex? does it say immediately after charging take the MSS test?
It states that it happens after all assault moves have been made but before blows have been struck. Anything in base contact takes the test.
One thing I'd like to see is necron overseers. I've seen them in diagrams of the sautekh dynasty composition where Zahndrekh's royal court is made up of Obyron, 2 overseers and 3 lords. I'm unsure if they're just lords or if they're like a cryptek or something.
King Pariah wrote:Nemesors, Overlords, and Phaerons lose access to Warscythe but keep MSS
Vargards become a new generic HQ choice which don't have access to MSS but keep the Warscythe
Doesn't make sense given the fluff- the Warscythe is the most iconic weapon of Necron lords and overlords and has been wielded by Overlords in fluff sources on several occasions.
Obviously if I am playing challenges wrong then feel free to correct me, as I would love to shove a champ into my opponents face and let my Lord get some reaping done before the next round..
Not entirely sure, but if you assault, declare that MSS happens before the challenge and do not have your CC monster in base contact. If the Necron player charge you and challenge, you decide who accepts. That is how I thought it worked at least.
Edit: messed up quotes.
Hmmm what does it say in the codex? does it say immediately after charging take the MSS test?
IIRC it's been FAQ'd that the player who's turn the assault takes place in gets to choose which goes first- challenge or MSS.
Why do people keep saying the monolith sucks? Its an av14 200pt model, that's pretty good alone, the problem isn't the monolith it's the amount of at that people take, people also keep asking for ds immunity, am I the only one that thinks 200pts for av14 ds immunity, living metal, teleport, 4 Gauss guns, str8 large blast should cost 225 at least?
Lower cost on the Jetbike unit and bump them to being able to take ten and maybe be able to be equipped with a special weapon.
It would be nice to get Vehicle Squadrons.
Beefing up the Monolith it's just cost ineffective now. Sure it's 14 armour but still dies pretty easily.
Just think that in 4th edition, pariahs costed 35 points, had a 3+ save were I3, came with a warscythe that had a built in gauss blaster (which also had rending), caused any unit within 12" to count as ld 7 and any psyker within 6" to take a morale check. They didn't have RP.
Lychguard cost 40 points, have a 3+ save, are I2, have a warscythe and have RP.
Is RP worth +5 points, taking away a gauss blaster and those abilities? Sure, you don't have phase out now, but I'm pretty sure no one was blown away by lychguard when they read their statline and wargear options.
Triarch praetorians are even harder to justify their points and are just impossible to use effectively. 6" str5 ap 2 guns? Unwieldy in combat? You'd probably do better in combat by not using their rod of covenant at all and attacking normally.
4th edition necrons might have been OP and 5th edition necrons are pretty solid in a lot of areas. But when you start to look at their less commonly used units such as praetorians, lychguard, flayed ones, destroyers, C'tan; it's pretty underwhelming.
I hope that if they get an update that they'll not change much at all that makes them a good army right now, but will reinvent some of their units to be more effectively used. I think that triarch preatorians and lychgard should be the necron terminators given that they're fluff-wise the ex personal bodyguards of the triarch council. Making them jump infantry was a step in the right direction, giving them interesting abilities like disperion shields was also interesting. But they should invest time into making them "feel" like an elite unit within the necron empire that reflects their fluff.
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Formosa wrote: Why do people keep saying the monolith sucks? Its an av14 200pt model, that's pretty good alone, the problem isn't the monolith it's the amount of at that people take, people also keep asking for ds immunity, am I the only one that thinks 200pts for av14 ds immunity, living metal, teleport, 4 Gauss guns, str8 large blast should cost 225 at least?
I think the problem comes from the fact that it's incredibly easy to lose a monolith to DS and, generally, when you choose to field one as is true for any other necron army, you build your army around supporting or being supported by its abilities.
I have 2 monoliths and when I field it, I like to try and get the most of out it. One of my tactics is to have a gunline of ghost arks and warriors with a monolith. You DS a monolith to the enemy's line and then dimensional corridor a 20man squad of warriors with a lord/overlord supporting it to the front line. You do as much damage as possible and then take the damage from the retaliation.
If the squad survives, the squad is dimensional corridored to the ghost arks, repair barged and then dimensional corridored back to the front line with 4D3(4 -> 12) more warriors than it had at the start of the turn.
Sure, it's a bit cheesy. But it's also kind of reminiscent of the old 4th edition monolith where dimensional corridoring a squad meant you got to reroll reanimation (which were 4+) for that squad.
Ofcourse, it's worthless when the model that's bigger than a bastion scatters 0.1cm into terrain or slightly off the table which means you mishap, delay or your opponent drops it miles away.
Lower cost on the Jetbike unit and bump them to being able to take ten and maybe be able to be equipped with a special weapon.
It would be nice to get Vehicle Squadrons.
Beefing up the Monolith it's just cost ineffective now. Sure it's 14 armour but still dies pretty easily.
Just think that in 4th edition, pariahs costed 35 points, had a 3+ save were I3, came with a warscythe that had a built in gauss blaster (which also had rending), caused any unit within 12" to count as ld 7 and any psyker within 6" to take a morale check. They didn't have RP.
Their gauss blasters didn't have rending. What gave you that idea? Edit: Ah, I see. The old gauss rule, where a wounding hit of a six immediately causes a wound WITH saves allowed. It was nothing like rending, especially 4th ed rending.
The pariahs were not good units at all. They were expensive, didn't add to Phase Out (making it easier for the Necron player to lose, since he had fewer "necrons" on the table), still had lower initiative against most of the nasty CC units in 4th (Banshees, Space Marines, Genestealers, etc), no invuls (Lychguard could take these at least), slow (Praetorians are faster at least). If you want to actually use that special power that they are paying for, you have to be close to the enemy, and hope you make them all break before they unload everything into the pariahs. Oh, and they only have 1 attack each (Lychguard have more), making their scythes somewhat useless on them.
I love pariahs, but that doesn't change the fact that there were terrible units who didn't add much to the army.
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Formosa wrote: Why do people keep saying the monolith sucks? Its an av14 200pt model, that's pretty good alone, the problem isn't the monolith it's the amount of at that people take, people also keep asking for ds immunity, am I the only one that thinks 200pts for av14 ds immunity, living metal, teleport, 4 Gauss guns, str8 large blast should cost 225 at least?
It's a AV14 model with a large base, making the chances of it mishapping fairly high.
You'd also think that a pyramid made of metal slowly descending from the sky wouldn't be blown by a stray grot that just happened to wander on the lith's landing site.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It's a AV14 model with a large base, making the chances of it mishapping fairly high.
You'd also think that a pyramid made of metal slowly descending from the sky wouldn't be blown by a stray grot that just happened to wander on the lith's landing site.
You'd also think that the most advanced race in the setting that also boasts the best teleportation tech around and doesn't rely on the warp for it to work (which is the source of most issues with the teleporters of other races) would have something, anything, in their codex that would reduce or remove scatter on deep striking (and no, the Nemesor-Vargard thing doesn't count).
Hell, in fluff you have entire Necron armies materializing out of thin air in formation in front of their enemies and space stations who's crews were slaughtered by Necron boarding forces that teleported right into their hallways. In gameplay trying to deepstrike a couple of units in close proximity to the enemy in an area of the board that has terrain on it is practically suicidal...
I don't care if they put a prohibitively high price on Necron accurate deepstrike options just so long as they exist.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It's a AV14 model with a large base, making the chances of it mishapping fairly high.
You'd also think that a pyramid made of metal slowly descending from the sky wouldn't be blown by a stray grot that just happened to wander on the lith's landing site.
You'd also think that the most advanced race in the setting that also boasts the best teleportation tech around and doesn't rely on the warp for it to work (which is the source of most issues with the teleporters of other races) would have something, anything, in their codex that would reduce or remove scatter on deep striking (and no, the Nemesor-Vargard thing doesn't count).
Hell, in fluff you have entire Necron armies materializing out of thin air in formation in front of their enemies and space stations who's crews were slaughtered by Necron boarding forces that teleported right into their hallways. In gameplay trying to deepstrike a couple of units in close proximity to the enemy in an area of the board that has terrain on it is practically suicidal...
I don't care if they put a prohibitively high price on Necron accurate deepstrike options just so long as they exist.
That is true. Humans have accurate teleporters, and their teleportation tech isn't any near as advanced.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It's a AV14 model with a large base, making the chances of it mishapping fairly high.
You'd also think that a pyramid made of metal slowly descending from the sky wouldn't be blown by a stray grot that just happened to wander on the lith's landing site.
You'd also think that the most advanced race in the setting that also boasts the best teleportation tech around and doesn't rely on the warp for it to work (which is the source of most issues with the teleporters of other races) would have something, anything, in their codex that would reduce or remove scatter on deep striking (and no, the Nemesor-Vargard thing doesn't count).
Hell, in fluff you have entire Necron armies materializing out of thin air in formation in front of their enemies and space stations who's crews were slaughtered by Necron boarding forces that teleported right into their hallways. In gameplay trying to deepstrike a couple of units in close proximity to the enemy in an area of the board that has terrain on it is practically suicidal...
I don't care if they put a prohibitively high price on Necron accurate deepstrike options just so long as they exist.
That is true. Humans have accurate teleporters, and their teleportation tech isn't any near as advanced.
Funnily enough ORK technology is far more advanced in Teleportation tech then humanity as noted by many tech priests, if only because they are able to use it far better in different methods. Even Necrons can't lift vehicles with it and use it to slam it through things, or fire creatures through the warp and into things armor and bodies.
Heck, Thraka showed a good use of it back in Armageddon, surprising everyone as his armies teleported in with giant Telly-porta pads.
Necrons probably can, actually. One of their recurring themes is that we still haven't seen the full extent of their arsenal. For all we know, they can teleport moons.
Besides, why would they lift objects with teleportation? They can just disintegrate it into molecules.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Necrons probably can, actually. One of their recurring themes is that we still haven't seen the full extent of their arsenal. For all we know, they can teleport moons.
Besides, why would they lift objects with teleportation? They can just disintegrate it into molecules.
Replicating Telekinesis would be a matter of messing with gravity and electromagnetism.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Funnily enough ORK technology is far more advanced in Teleportation tech then humanity as noted by many tech priests, if only because they are able to use it far better in different methods. Even Necrons can't lift vehicles with it and use it to slam it through things, or fire creatures through the warp and into things armor and bodies.
Heck, Thraka showed a good use of it back in Armageddon, surprising everyone as his armies teleported in with giant Telly-porta pads.
The Necrons have snipers that shoot you from hyperspace, Every last single Necron warrior starship, or combat vehicle has a built in personal teleporter that can beam them back to the nearest tombworld on a moment's notice and their most basic guns disassemble their victim on an atomic level, sucks the resulting particles into the barrel and then teleports them somewhere (IIRC it was originally designed to send the remain off to be fed on by the C'tan).
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Funnily enough ORK technology is far more advanced in Teleportation tech then humanity as noted by many tech priests, if only because they are able to use it far better in different methods. Even Necrons can't lift vehicles with it and use it to slam it through things, or fire creatures through the warp and into things armor and bodies.
Heck, Thraka showed a good use of it back in Armageddon, surprising everyone as his armies teleported in with giant Telly-porta pads.
The Necrons have snipers that shoot you from hyperspace, Every last single Necron warrior starship, or combat vehicle has a built in personal teleporter that can beam them back to the nearest tombworld on a moment's notice and their most basic guns disassemble their victim on an atomic level, sucks the resulting particles into the barrel and then teleports them somewhere (IIRC it was originally designed to send the remain off to be fed on by the C'tan).
I think they take it...
I said it wrong, I should've said Necron's don't use it to do that.
Seriously everyone's nitpicking that one little line.
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