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Post by: Scorpionov
so what has changed with the 7th edition rules if you don't mind me asking?
Because I haven't got the new rule book and not a real tourney player as well
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Post by: Locclo
There are some big changes, some little changes. Just a few off the top of my head:
1. The Psychic Phase now replaces...well, taking psychic tests. Basically, you get a pool of dice and manifest powers by rolling any number of dice you want from the pool, and if enough dice come up 4 or higher to equal or exceed the warp charge cost of the test you're taking, it goes off. Obviously there's more to it, but that's the gist.
2. Jink is no longer a flat 5+ save for moving, it now works exactly how evasion works for fliers. During the opponent's shooting phase, after a weapon has been fired but before wounds have been rolled, the unit with Jink can choose to use it or not, and if they do, they get a 4+ (yes, 4+) cover save, but they fire snap shots only in the next phase.
3. Flying Monstrous Creatures have taken a hit as well, you can no longer assault on the turn you change flight modes. Also, models need only take a single grounding test at the end of the Shooting phase, rather than every time they get shot.
4. Shooting works slightly differently now. When you select a unit to shoot, you then choose one of its weapons to shoot, then roll to hit, wound, etc. for every model with that weapon that is going to fire that weapon (since models can obviously only fire one gun per turn, mostly). Then you move onto the next weapon, until everything has fired.
5. Assaulting through terrain is different, you now roll 2d6 and subtract 2 from the distance, rather than rolling 3 and picking the two lowest.
6. Independent characters can no longer join Monstrous Creatures (so no more Buffmander + Riptide units).
7. Terrain rules have changed, in that they've removed the ridiculous terrain density thing. The book basically says to set the board up in such a way that both players are happy with it. In addition, you now deploy fortifications with your army, not when you put terrain on the board, meaning that you can actually safely put down your Defense Line without having the opposing player plop giant walls in front of it.
8. Lists can now be Battle-forged or Unbound; Battle-forged means that it comes from one army, Unbound lets you throw the FOC out the window and play whatever you want within the points limit. Also, Battle-forged lists can have any number of detachments at any points level.
9. The book has 6 new missions (Maelstrom of War) that utilize Tactical Objectives instead of the normal objectives. GW sells a deck of cards that lists them so you can just draw cards and use them as your objectives, but there's also a chart that you can roll on to generate them. They range from killing things in assault, taking specific objectives, getting into the enemy's deployment zone, all kinds of things. A full half of them are "Control X Objective," however. To make these objectives a little less insane to accomplish, since not every codex has troops that can fly across the board at a moment's notice, all models are scoring, with the exception of anything that is flying (dropping down to gliding/hovering makes them scoring again, however).
10. This is why Battle-forged and Unbound isn't as ridiculous as you might think: Troops from Battle-forged lists have the "Objective Secured" special rule, which means that nothing short of another Battle-forged Troops unit can contest the objective they're sitting on.
11. The Allies Matrix was changed a bit, the main thing to note is that alliances across the board have dropped. The majority of alliances are now either desperate or "Come the Apocalypse," with a few sprinklings of Allies of Convenience and Battle Brothers.
12. In addition to point 11, a "Come the Apocalypse" alliance no longer forbids allies, it simply makes it so that units from the two armies may not deploy within 12" of each other. Additionally, they have to deal with the "One Eye Open" rule that Desperate Allies have to deal with.
13. Not really a change (although I'm sure the rules HAVE changed a little), the main rule book now includes the rules for units that were previously Apoc/Escalation-only, like Gargantuan Creatures and Super-heavy Vehicles.
I'm sure there are plenty more, but those are the immediate ones that I can think of.
Edit: Oh, and GW has made it an official rule that you must agree with your opponent what is allowed in a list and what isn't allowed.
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Post by: Vineheart01
Allies pretty much favors Imperial armies now, as it says "Imperial are Battlebrothers with Imperial" and on the side it lists every single loyalist army. Before, some of them werent BB but convenience.
I have no quarry with allies, but Battlebrothers is fething stupid and it breaks the game. Now really only Eldar and Imperial armies have access to it. Not sure what Eld/Deld could bring thats that gamebreaking but almost every imperial army has some special character that enables some nasty tactic in another imperial army.
Also my Tau are Desperate Allies with almost everyone...which is weird and sucks lol
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Post by: raiden
no one likes the tau. Not even the tau like the tau.
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Post by: Nightlord1987
So since there is no direct reference to Area terrain anymore, do we just assume the new clarification of being IN cover refers to Area, wile BEHIND refers to the 25% obscured? Or is the only thing you can be IN as referenced is Ruins?
I no know...
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Post by: Mulletdude
 Locclo wrote:
2. Jink is no longer a flat 5+ save for moving, it now works exactly how evasion works for fliers. During the opponent's shooting phase, after a weapon has been fired but before wounds have been rolled, the unit with Jink can choose to use it or not, and if they do, they get a 4+ (yes, 4+) cover save, but they fire snap shots only in the next phase.
Please re-read the Jink special rule on page 167. You determine if you're going to jink as soon as you're nominated as a target for a shooting attack, not after to-hit rolls have been made.
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Post by: Lloyld
Interesting changes, the new jink rule makes hover vehicles much less obnoxious. As a Tau player with lots of hover vehicles that does kinda suck, but I suppose it makes more sense than, "I moved 1 inch, therefore my save is awesome"
Also is the Psychic Phase before shooting and after movement still?
I don't personally see the point in the shooting changes, I suppose it means you can unload with bolter fire into the guys in front then save your melta shot for the guy with special weapons or the leutenant. But with Look Out Sir, couldn't the enemy simply re-allocate those wounds anyway? (Obviously it's based on a die roll so it's not guarenteed but w/e)
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Post by: da001
@ Locclo: thank you very much kind sir.
4. Shooting works slightly differently now. When you select a unit to shoot, you then choose one of its weapons to shoot, then roll to hit, wound, etc. for every model with that weapon that is going to fire that weapon (since models can obviously only fire one gun per turn, mostly). Then you move onto the next weapon, until everything has fired.
I don´t see the point here. Rolling everything together was done to get wounds quicker. Wound allocation was the problem, not this. Imagine you have 30 bolter wounds over a unit with 9 3+ save models behind a single 2+ model with Look Out Sir!. That was the problem to be fixed.
The book basically says to set the board up in such a way that both players are happy with it.
Lol what?  Good luck with that.
Oh, and GW has made it an official rule that you must agree with your opponent what is allowed in a list and what isn't allowed.
That´s good. It shouldn´t be necessary, but I hope it will end some silly discussions.
If I may ask:
1) Any changes to Look Out Sir?
2) Any changes to how you shoot at flyers?
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Post by: Sarigar
We played a game yesterday. Terrain set up was super easy, but we also mimicked how a typical terrain board would be laid out. However, to be fair, I thought 6th edition's way of rolling/setting up terrain was absolutely terrible. I much preferred larger tourney events where terrain was preplaced. Also, you set up your Fortification at the same time as your army and within your deployment zone.
Unbound Tyranids vs. Dark Angels using the new mission cards. Game went pretty smooth. I really like having a psychic phase. I can foresee shooting something like an AM blob unit with multiple weapons becoming clunky and time consuming, but playable. Cover saves were toned down quite a bit; I can foresee things like Stealth/Shrouding and mass Inv saves becoming very important (or cover ignoring abilities)
No changes that I saw for Look Out Sir and shooting at Fliers.
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Post by: Xiorell
Locclo wrote:
8. Lists can now be Battle-forged or Unbound; Battle-forged means that it comes from one army, Unbound lets you throw the FOC out the window and play whatever you want within the points limit. Also, Battle-forged lists can have any number of detachments at any points level.
That's unbound but still all from same codex of course, right?
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Post by: Locclo
Happy to help. 
The book basically says to set the board up in such a way that both players are happy with it.
Lol what? Good luck with that.
Depends on who you play with. I feel like it's far, far superior to the terrain density thing, because then it was perfectly legitimate for your opponent to drop giant walls in front of your fortifications, or place tiny walls in your deployment zone to mess with your deployment. I prefer being able to just sort of put terrain down and try to make it even between the two players than have to do a whole back-and-forth thing before the game starts.
If I may ask:
1) Any changes to Look Out Sir?
2) Any changes to how you shoot at flyers?
1. Doesn't look like it - in fact I think the wording is identical on the rule, with the exception that the FAQ about having to take the closest model is now included in the book.
2. The only change I saw is that Skyfire and Interceptor are no longer intertwined; if you have Skyfire, you fire Snap Shots at ground targets and normal shots at Flyers, period. Interceptor just allows you to fire at things coming out of reserve now.
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Post by: ionusx
One more thing worth noting. Terrain now has hull points like vehicles. Big terrain has iirc 5 hull points and is av14 all around and small terrain like adl sections are av12 with 2 hp
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Post by: Johnnytorrance
 Xiorell wrote: Locclo wrote:
8. Lists can now be Battle-forged or Unbound; Battle-forged means that it comes from one army, Unbound lets you throw the FOC out the window and play whatever you want within the points limit. Also, Battle-forged lists can have any number of detachments at any points level.
That's unbound but still all from same codex of course, right?
Nope, you can play an unbound list of space marines and chaos daemons if you want. They're still "come the apocalypse" but CtA doesn't stop you from being allies. Only penalty is CtA allies can not start closer than 12" from each other I think.
So yeah, you have a Tyranids and tau army, you can play them if you want
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Post by: Locclo
 ionusx wrote:One more thing worth noting. Terrain now has hull points like vehicles. Big terrain has iirc 5 hull points and is av14 all around and small terrain like adl sections are av12 with 2 hp
Where do you see those rules? I didn't find anything like that in the Terrain section of the BRB, and I can't find anything like that in Stronghold Assault, either. Edit: I mean, it's true that buildings have hull points and armor values, but a defense line is not a building, it's Battlefield Debris.
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Post by: Xiorell
Johnnytorrance wrote: Xiorell wrote: Locclo wrote:
8. Lists can now be Battle-forged or Unbound; Battle-forged means that it comes from one army, Unbound lets you throw the FOC out the window and play whatever you want within the points limit. Also, Battle-forged lists can have any number of detachments at any points level.
That's unbound but still all from same codex of course, right?
Nope, you can play an unbound list of space marines and chaos daemons if you want. They're still "come the apocalypse" but CtA doesn't stop you from being allies. Only penalty is CtA allies can not start closer than 12" from each other I think.
So yeah, you have a Tyranids and tau army, you can play them if you want
Hmm. OK. But both allies still need to be EITHER forged or unbound ? Can't have forged primary with unbound allies?
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Post by: Smirrors
Does skilled rider and turbo boosting affect jink saves I.e. Give +1. So skilled rider USR gives a jink of 3+ now? etc
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Post by: Sir Arun
 Scorpionov wrote:so what has changed with the 7th edition rules if you don't mind me asking?
Because I haven't got the new rule book and not a real tourney player as well
Craters only grant 6+ cover saves now; Sniper rifles have lost pinning (wat) and only have AP2 on a 6 instead of rending, but are +1S when rolling armor pen. Still this means they cannot scratch AV11+ vehicles anymore.
Also, Eldar Farseers can unleash Slaaneshi Daemonettes now and SM Librarians can sacrifice themselves to summon greater daemons while Inquisitors can fight alongside Tyranids.
Welcome to 7th.
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Post by: Glaiceana
So is 7th looking okay so far then? Was slightly worried it was going to be bad and end up causing a lot of anger like the last Tyranids codex did when it came out.
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Post by: Jonah
Do you still get a penalty for firing Ordnance weapons on a Heavy vehicle? IE Can a Leman Russ fire its Battle Cannon and Side-sponsons at full BS?
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Post by: Sir Arun
 Glaiceana wrote:So is 7th looking okay so far then? Was slightly worried it was going to be bad and end up causing a lot of anger like the last Tyranids codex did when it came out.
Well, other than GW having thrown what little was left of game balance completely out of the window and traditional armylist building being a thing of the past, yeah...
Jonah wrote:IE Can a Leman Russ fire its Battle Cannon and Side-sponsons at full BS?
nope.jpg
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Post by: Glaiceana
 Sir Arun wrote: Glaiceana wrote:So is 7th looking okay so far then? Was slightly worried it was going to be bad and end up causing a lot of anger like the last Tyranids codex did when it came out.
Well, other than GW having thrown what little was left of game balance completely out of the window and traditional armylist building being a thing of the past, yeah...
Doesn't sound too promising really :(
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Post by: Sir Arun
Yep. You can take 1 HQ and 2 Troops and then fill out your favorite slot (like Heavy Support) and then take another HQ, 2 more troops and continue to fill more Heavy Support slots, all in an army less than 2000 points (double FoC was only 2k and more in 6th)
And with all your Heavy Support choices scoring (including vehicles) you really dont have to bother taking anything other than min sized troops squads anymore. Sure, they prevent others from scoring, but troops choices are hardly dangerous to begin with and will just get wiped by specialists.
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Post by: jasper76
Glaiceana wrote:So is 7th looking okay so far then? Was slightly worried it was going to be bad and end up causing a lot of anger like the last Tyranids codex did when it came out.
Its really just 6th Edition + Escalation and SA, a new (cool IMO) Psyker phase, some new spells, an unfettered army list option (that requires opponent consent), and some minor rule changes, which, again IMO, are for the better.
I think if your wondering whether 7th will be OK, it will just depend on whether or not you liked 6th and Escalation. I liked 6th...I will like 7th.
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Post by: Sir Arun
 jasper76 wrote: Glaiceana wrote:So is 7th looking okay so far then? Was slightly worried it was going to be bad and end up causing a lot of anger like the last Tyranids codex did when it came out.
Its really just 6th Edition + Escalation and SA, a new (cool IMO) Psyker phase, some new spells, an unfettered army list option (that requires opponent consent), and some minor rule changes, which, again IMO, are for the better.
I think if your wondering whether 7th will be OK, it will just depend on whether or not you liked 6th and Escalation. I liked 6th...I will like 7th.
no it's not.
the new rulebook doesnt contain escalation or stronghold assault rules and tells you to buy those books to get the rules.
also unlike 6th ed it has removed points costs for the fortifications that were included ( ADL, skyshield, imperial bastion, fortress of redemption etc.) and since 6th ed is out of print, new players will have to pay an additional £20 to get the stronghold assault book to field ADLs.
Also while 7th did abolish Taudar and Marinetau; it made all Imperials battle brothers, so new shenanigans abound e,g, with Draigowing containing a Invisibility psyker.
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Post by: jasper76
Sir Arun wrote: jasper76 wrote: Glaiceana wrote:So is 7th looking okay so far then? Was slightly worried it was going to be bad and end up causing a lot of anger like the last Tyranids codex did when it came out.
Its really just 6th Edition + Escalation and SA, a new (cool IMO) Psyker phase, some new spells, an unfettered army list option (that requires opponent consent), and some minor rule changes, which, again IMO, are for the better.
I think if your wondering whether 7th will be OK, it will just depend on whether or not you liked 6th and Escalation. I liked 6th...I will like 7th.
no it's not.
the new rulebook doesnt contain escalation or stronghold assault rules and tells you to buy those books to get the rules.
also unlike 6th ed it has removed points costs for the fortifications that were included ( ADL, skyshield, imperial bastion, fortress of redemption etc.)
Also while 7th did abolish Taudar and Marinetau; it made all Imperials battle brothers, so new shenanigans abound e,g, with Draigowing containing a Invisibility psyker.
Yeah, I didn't mean that the new Rulebook included Escalation and Strongholds books inside, only that it normalized these models in a "normal" 40k game.
The other changes your talking about (allies) is just a tweak to the existing chart. All these non-Psyker rules tweaks are just tweaks. Though they may have big implications, they are not fundamanetal changes to the game system.
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Post by: Nightlord1987
Anyone figure out how codexes/supplements get to Ally with themselves now? It seems that Allies MUST be from a different faction (wth?).
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Post by: SisterSydney
Sir Arun wrote:Yep. You can take 1 HQ and 2 Troops and then fill out your favorite slot (like Heavy Support) and then take another HQ, 2 more troops and continue to fill more Heavy Support slots, all in an army less than 2000 points (double FoC was only 2k and more in 6th)
And with all your Heavy Support choices scoring (including vehicles) you really dont have to bother taking anything other than min sized troops squads anymore. Sure, they prevent others from scoring, but troops choices are hardly dangerous to begin with and will just get wiped by specialists.
This seems a self-fulfilling prophecy: Troops will just get wiped out by specialists, therefore I will only take two minimum-sized squads, hey look they died quickly what a surprise.
I take it you can have multiple detachments of one army?
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Post by: Sir Arun
well they cant unless the supplement specifically allows it
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Post by: jasper76
 Nightlord1987 wrote:Anyone figure out how codexes/supplements get to Ally with themselves now? It seems that Allies MUST be from a different faction ( wth?).
Well look at that...you can't bring an Allied Detachment from the same army. Page 122/Allied Detachment/Restrictions/Line 4
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Post by: SisterSydney
Aha! So this trick Sir Arun wrote:Yep. You can take 1 HQ and 2 Troops and then fill out your favorite slot (like Heavy Support) and then take another HQ, 2 more troops and continue to fill more Heavy Support slots, all in an army less than 2000 points (double FoC was only 2k and more in 6th).....
won't let you spam one particular unit. You'd have to have, say, buy a Captain, two Tac Squads, and three Predators; then a Company Command Squad, two Veteran Squads, and three Leman Russes; etc. EDITED: No, I'm totally wrong.
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Post by: Thud
jasper76 wrote: Nightlord1987 wrote:Anyone figure out how codexes/supplements get to Ally with themselves now? It seems that Allies MUST be from a different faction ( wth?).
Well look at that...you can't bring an Allied Detachment from the same army. Page 122/Allied Detachment/Restrictions/Line 4
But it does look like you can fill up your primary detachment with a mix of parent codex and supplement.
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Post by: Sir Arun
 SisterSydney wrote:Aha! So this trick
Sir Arun wrote:Yep. You can take 1 HQ and 2 Troops and then fill out your favorite slot (like Heavy Support) and then take another HQ, 2 more troops and continue to fill more Heavy Support slots, all in an army less than 2000 points (double FoC was only 2k and more in 6th).....
won't let you spam one particular unit. You'd have to have, say, buy a Captain, two Tac Squads, and three Predators; then a Company Command Squad, two Veteran Squads, and three Leman Russes; etc.
how so? I can buy a captain, 2 min sized scout squads, 3 vindicators, then another captain, 2 min sized scouts, and another 3 vindicators.
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Post by: wuestenfux
How about D weapons? No changes being made?
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Post by: jasper76
You can now get cover or invul against a D weapon, unless they roll a 6 on theD Damahge Chart....I think that's a change.
A roll of 1 still doesn't do any damage.
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Post by: SisterSydney
Sir Arun wrote: SisterSydney wrote:Aha! So this trick Sir Arun wrote:Yep. You can take 1 HQ and 2 Troops and then fill out your favorite slot (like Heavy Support) and then take another HQ, 2 more troops and continue to fill more Heavy Support slots, all in an army less than 2000 points (double FoC was only 2k and more in 6th).....
won't let you spam one particular unit. You'd have to have, say, buy a Captain, two Tac Squads, and three Predators; then a Company Command Squad, two Veteran Squads, and three Leman Russes; etc.
how so? I can buy a captain, 2 min sized scout squads, 3 vindicators, then another captain, 2 min sized scouts, and another 3 vindicators.
Ohhhh, because Marines with different Chapter Tactics can ally with each other, right. I get it now. Edited because I am stupid. Multiple detachments =! taking allies. Finally got that straight in me 'ead.
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Post by: Sir Arun
Taking multiple FoCs isnt allying.
Restrictions to allying "you cannot ally with yourself" only apply when taking allies.
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Post by: jasper76
It looks like you can have as many FOCs as you like from the same Army (like 6th but no mention of a 2000 point basement)...but if you want to use the Allied Detachment FOC, you need to bring it from a different codex.
Spec Marines all fall under the same faction, so you couldn't bring an Allied Detatchment from that book if that book was used for your Primary Detatchment.
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Post by: AtoMaki
SisterSydney wrote: Sir Arun wrote: SisterSydney wrote:Aha! So this trick
Sir Arun wrote:Yep. You can take 1 HQ and 2 Troops and then fill out your favorite slot (like Heavy Support) and then take another HQ, 2 more troops and continue to fill more Heavy Support slots, all in an army less than 2000 points (double FoC was only 2k and more in 6th).....
won't let you spam one particular unit. You'd have to have, say, buy a Captain, two Tac Squads, and three Predators; then a Company Command Squad, two Veteran Squads, and three Leman Russes; etc.
how so? I can buy a captain, 2 min sized scout squads, 3 vindicators, then another captain, 2 min sized scouts, and another 3 vindicators.
Ohhhh, because Marines with different Chapter Tactics can ally with each other, right. I get it now.
No, it is because you can have any number of Combined Arms detachment and there is no restriction on what units you can take in the extra Combined Arms detachments.
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Post by: jasper76
 AtoMaki wrote:
No, it is because you can have any number of Combined Arms detachment and there is no restriction on what units you can take in the extra Combined Arms detachments.
There is 1 Restriction....all units in a Combine Arms detachment must be from the same faction.
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Post by: Sir Arun
jasper76 wrote: AtoMaki wrote:
No, it is because you can have any number of Combined Arms detachment and there is no restriction on what units you can take in the extra Combined Arms detachments.
There is 1 Restriction....all units in a Combine Arms detachment must be from the same faction.
Arent Imperials a faction now?
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Post by: jasper76
Sir Arun wrote: jasper76 wrote: AtoMaki wrote:
No, it is because you can have any number of Combined Arms detachment and there is no restriction on what units you can take in the extra Combined Arms detachments.
There is 1 Restriction....all units in a Combine Arms detachment must be from the same faction.
Arent Imperials a faction now?
Imperial Knights are a faction...all the "Armies of the Imperium" (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Space Marines, AM, etc) are still unique factions.
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Post by: Paradigm
EDIT: Already answered.
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Post by: jasper76
It seems to me that you can no longer take an Allied Detatchment from a Codex Supplement. It would have to be its own FOC, because they equated Supllements as the same Faction as the parent Codex (p 126), and you can't have an Allied Detachment from the same faction as your Primary Detachment (p 122).
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Post by: Vineheart01
Str D is interesting. Crazy nasty still compared to other weapons but not auto-obliterate like usual lol.
After rolling to hit, you roll a D6 for the result. Roll of a 1, nothing happens. Roll of a 2-5 the vehicle is Penn'd and suffers D3 hullpoints instead of one while in units a model suffers D3 auto wounds instead of one. A roll of 6 is NOT instant death anymore, but might as well be lol vehicles suffer D6+6 hullpoints and roll on the pen table and any models hit suffer D6+6 wounds. In this case, no saves of any kind are allowed including invul.
two interesting things here. remember Swarms taking double wounds from blasts, being FAQ'd saying it doesnt double the wound pool but every wound causes 2 wounds? This is worded the same way imo as Swarms was pre- faq, leading me to believe if you pass a cover/invul save on the 2-5 roll you pass the attack PERIOD whether it caused 3 wounds or 1, since it says "model" not unit.
While the loophole in FNP not being a save still seems to exist, the wording on the FNP rule makes it impossible to dodge these attacks as FNP says it cannot be taken against destroyer weapons. Sadface lol would be hilarious to have my nobs take a wound that would cause D6+6 and i FNP'd it 
Oo, actually on the note of FNP it specifically says "can be used on attacks that state no saves of any kind are allowed" haha its no longer a loophole its intended! though not against StrD obviously or ID attacks.
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
am i reading skyfire right... it looks like it got the ass.
it no longer has the exception for where you have Skyfire AND interceptor and can shoot at ANYTHING, now skyfire is JUST the flyers etc and snap shots on anything else..
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Post by: Vineheart01
Yup, read that right. Quad gun kinda got the shaft didnt it lol byebye ADL you were so beautiful while it lasted.
Means only units that can turn skyfire on/off (fliers, tau Vector Tracker upgrade, etc) can fire at everything still. Not sure what else can turn it on and off though....a lot of the anti air with skyfire i see say Skyfire not some special rule like Tau use.
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Post by: Thud
 ausYenLoWang wrote:am i reading skyfire right... it looks like it got the ass.
it no longer has the exception for where you have Skyfire AND interceptor and can shoot at ANYTHING, now skyfire is JUST the flyers etc and snap shots on anything else..
Looks like.
Is anything besides the gun emplacements affected though?
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
 Thud wrote: ausYenLoWang wrote:am i reading skyfire right... it looks like it got the ass.
it no longer has the exception for where you have Skyfire AND interceptor and can shoot at ANYTHING, now skyfire is JUST the flyers etc and snap shots on anything else..
Looks like.
Is anything besides the gun emplacements affected though?
all Skyfire units, its not an option to turn on and off... Automatically Appended Next Post:  Vineheart01 wrote:Yup, read that right. Quad gun kinda got the shaft didnt it lol byebye ADL you were so beautiful while it lasted.
Means only units that can turn skyfire on/off (fliers, tau Vector Tracker upgrade, etc) can fire at everything still. Not sure what else can turn it on and off though....a lot of the anti air with skyfire i see say Skyfire not some special rule like Tau use.
also if i use an ADL these days its with a comms relay... cos well who doesnt want to get flyers in faster... might become a bastion now though....
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Post by: Vineheart01
True that, i do it with my orks with i bring 3 dakkajets because it REALLY irritates me to have them come on 1by1 when im trying to get a good WAAAAAAGH! going lol
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
Drakes and vendettas agree with you there 
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Post by: Thud
ausYenLoWang wrote: Thud wrote: ausYenLoWang wrote:am i reading skyfire right... it looks like it got the ass.
it no longer has the exception for where you have Skyfire AND interceptor and can shoot at ANYTHING, now skyfire is JUST the flyers etc and snap shots on anything else..
Looks like.
Is anything besides the gun emplacements affected though?
all Skyfire units, its not an option to turn on and off...
It is for Tau, and Flyers, and FMCs.
The new SM tanks never had Interceptor anyway, or IG Hydras for that matter.
I can't think of anyone, except gun emplacements, that are affected.
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Post by: Vineheart01
iirc there were ways to add Skyfire or Interceptor throughout the game.
Oh, and the Mysterious Objective for Skyfire lets you turn it on and off. Forgot about that one, as that would SUCK to get that and be unable to turn it off lol
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Post by: Mythantor
Challenges are alot better now.
Though any army with no psykers will be pretty shafted with DtW with their measly 1d6 deny dice.
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
 Mythantor wrote:Challenges are alot better now.
Though any army with no psykers will be pretty shafted with DtW with their measly 1d6 deny dice.
well its 1 D6 roll and BOTH players add that many dice. so a D6 roll of 4 means both players get 4 + ML ... not too bad unless your opponent has flooded the fields with psykers
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Post by: Sir Arun
Challenges suck even harder now.
See, in 5th ed taking an IG sergeant with a powerfist actually made sense as I invested 15 points to get a S6 AP2 weapon with 2 attacks for my squad so if they got charged by terminators, I could kill 1, maybe 2 before the squad got ripped to shreds or fled.
In 6th, the introduction of challenges massively nerfed this and made any special type of cc-weapon for the sarge useless, as he could simply be challenged and thus unable to hide in the squad. At least he could challenge a cc-monster and buy his squad some time through his sacrifice.
In 7th, now that wounds spill over, and a powerfist costs 25 points instead of 15, you'd have to be a special breed of stupid to still put one on your sarge.
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
or you just dont challenge that daemon prince thats gonna thrash you and hope that the other models can get swings in.
IN FACT. i just realised is this a buff for CSM, i am FORCED to challenge you, you accept and i beat you horribly, i get a nice overkill and laugh,
you deny and he gets to swing on the unit anyway, and you get 1 less person to fight me...
sadly my cultists will still feel the pain lol
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Post by: Bharring
I was really hoping they'd fix the GUO calling a seargent a coward. I kinda wish that worked like Fantasy.
So is the only change now that the GUO pastes the squad even if the Sarge steps up, but any survivors can't strike back?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem with not challenging the DP is that the DP can challenge the sarge and now paste the entire squad anyways, right? Meaning either Sarge doesn't attack, and his squad fights without him, or Sarge dies before swinging, and the squad dies without being able to fight?
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Post by: Sir Arun
Bharring wrote:I was really hoping they'd fix the GUO calling a seargent a coward. I kinda wish that worked like Fantasy.
So is the only change now that the GUO pastes the squad even if the Sarge steps up, but any survivors can't strike back?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem with not challenging the DP is that the DP can challenge the sarge and now paste the entire squad anyways, right? Meaning either Sarge doesn't attack, and his squad fights without him, or Sarge dies before swinging, and the squad dies without being able to fight?
correct.
thats why challenges suck even harder now.
characters that arent I4 or have a solid inv. save are utterly useless
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Post by: Sorris
Locclo wrote:There are some big changes, some little changes. Just a few off the top of my head:
1. The Psychic Phase now replaces...well, taking psychic tests. Basically, you get a pool of dice and manifest powers by rolling any number of dice you want from the pool, and if enough dice come up 4 or higher to equal or exceed the warp charge cost of the test you're taking, it goes off. Obviously there's more to it, but that's the gist.
2. Jink is no longer a flat 5+ save for moving, it now works exactly how evasion works for fliers. During the opponent's shooting phase, after a weapon has been fired but before wounds have been rolled, the unit with Jink can choose to use it or not, and if they do, they get a 4+ (yes, 4+) cover save, but they fire snap shots only in the next phase.
3. Flying Monstrous Creatures have taken a hit as well, you can no longer assault on the turn you change flight modes. Also, models need only take a single grounding test at the end of the Shooting phase, rather than every time they get shot.
4. Shooting works slightly differently now. When you select a unit to shoot, you then choose one of its weapons to shoot, then roll to hit, wound, etc. for every model with that weapon that is going to fire that weapon (since models can obviously only fire one gun per turn, mostly). Then you move onto the next weapon, until everything has fired.
5. Assaulting through terrain is different, you now roll 2d6 and subtract 2 from the distance, rather than rolling 3 and picking the two lowest.
6. Independent characters can no longer join Monstrous Creatures (so no more Buffmander + Riptide units).
7. Terrain rules have changed, in that they've removed the ridiculous terrain density thing. The book basically says to set the board up in such a way that both players are happy with it. In addition, you now deploy fortifications with your army, not when you put terrain on the board, meaning that you can actually safely put down your Defense Line without having the opposing player plop giant walls in front of it.
8. Lists can now be Battle-forged or Unbound; Battle-forged means that it comes from one army, Unbound lets you throw the FOC out the window and play whatever you want within the points limit. Also, Battle-forged lists can have any number of detachments at any points level.
9. The book has 6 new missions (Maelstrom of War) that utilize Tactical Objectives instead of the normal objectives. GW sells a deck of cards that lists them so you can just draw cards and use them as your objectives, but there's also a chart that you can roll on to generate them. They range from killing things in assault, taking specific objectives, getting into the enemy's deployment zone, all kinds of things. A full half of them are "Control X Objective," however. To make these objectives a little less insane to accomplish, since not every codex has troops that can fly across the board at a moment's notice, all models are scoring, with the exception of anything that is flying (dropping down to gliding/hovering makes them scoring again, however).
10. This is why Battle-forged and Unbound isn't as ridiculous as you might think: Troops from Battle-forged lists have the "Objective Secured" special rule, which means that nothing short of another Battle-forged Troops unit can contest the objective they're sitting on.
11. The Allies Matrix was changed a bit, the main thing to note is that alliances across the board have dropped. The majority of alliances are now either desperate or "Come the Apocalypse," with a few sprinklings of Allies of Convenience and Battle Brothers.
12. In addition to point 11, a "Come the Apocalypse" alliance no longer forbids allies, it simply makes it so that units from the two armies may not deploy within 12" of each other. Additionally, they have to deal with the "One Eye Open" rule that Desperate Allies have to deal with.
13. Not really a change (although I'm sure the rules HAVE changed a little), the main rule book now includes the rules for units that were previously Apoc/Escalation-only, like Gargantuan Creatures and Super-heavy Vehicles.
I'm sure there are plenty more, but those are the immediate ones that I can think of.
Edit: Oh, and GW has made it an official rule that you must agree with your opponent what is allowed in a list and what isn't allowed.
14. Template and Torrent weapons now burn units INSIDE open-topped vehicles.
15. Vector Strike is now AP 2.
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Post by: Vineheart01
Note that challenges like that one arent as bad as you think.
pg103
Outside Forces:
Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.
Basically meaning the big bad solo characters guarantee they can smack your pitiful sarge, but other than that the fight is normal since the unit has nothing else to swing at. Means the cheerleading is gone too, but big flippin deal lol.
Oh, and if the Sarge or other such character has any chance of surviving the attacks, but his unit doesnt, he can be a sponge for the unit. 5++ vs no save whatsoever, you might negate a couple before they spill out to the unit.
Edit: And to that template wounding inside open topped vehicles rule. The fething hell they doing? i want to run trukks and battlewagons even LESS now since even if you cant hurt the damn thing you can torch the occupants, since it says "vehicle hit" not "vehicle damaged" - even a lowly S4 Flamer that odds are wont scratch a Trukk can roast D6 boyz inside.
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
Bharring wrote:I was really hoping they'd fix the GUO calling a seargent a coward. I kinda wish that worked like Fantasy.
So is the only change now that the GUO pastes the squad even if the Sarge steps up, but any survivors can't strike back?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem with not challenging the DP is that the DP can challenge the sarge and now paste the entire squad anyways, right? Meaning either Sarge doesn't attack, and his squad fights without him, or Sarge dies before swinging, and the squad dies without being able to fight?
tahts how its going to work, which if we are fair, is how it should be... well i spose the sarge should be if he declined fighting at a disadvantage or something, but its better than some nobody sarge taking on a massive beatstick and saving everyone cos he dies on the first wound.
so i can see in some cases, this being a boon for those that go for mellee, IF you challenge a a real melee beatstick its will cost you, as it probably should have, though for those that are thinking sarge v sarge kind of thing... its not going to be too huge a change.
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Post by: Bharring
Sounds like a great change, then! Not perfect, but much better.
Edit - I meant the rest-of-squad-can attack bit.
My problem wasn't the big bad not being tied up by a sarge challenging, it was the ability for the big bad to challenge out the only model that can hurt it, and kill it before facing the squad as a whole.
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
Vineheart01 wrote:Note that challenges like that one arent as bad as you think.
pg103
Outside Forces:
Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.
Basically meaning the big bad solo characters guarantee they can smack your pitiful sarge, but other than that the fight is normal since the unit has nothing else to swing at. Means the cheerleading is gone too, but big flippin deal lol.
Oh, and if the Sarge or other such character has any chance of surviving the attacks, but his unit doesnt, he can be a sponge for the unit. 5++ vs no save whatsoever, you might negate a couple before they spill out to the unit.
\
wounds yes, BUT you cant roll to hit a model in a challenge. so if there was leftovers on a squad that got krumped then it can carry over, but you cant just roll to hit
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Post by: Vineheart01
Bah, yea true. Wth lol. Good ol' GW logic. Makes no sense to allow spillover but not initial striking if the cheerleading rule is gone.
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Post by: Sorris
Locclo wrote:There are some big changes, some little changes. Just a few off the top of my head:
1. The Psychic Phase now replaces...well, taking psychic tests. Basically, you get a pool of dice and manifest powers by rolling any number of dice you want from the pool, and if enough dice come up 4 or higher to equal or exceed the warp charge cost of the test you're taking, it goes off. Obviously there's more to it, but that's the gist.
2. Jink is no longer a flat 5+ save for moving, it now works exactly how evasion works for fliers. During the opponent's shooting phase, after a weapon has been fired but before wounds have been rolled, the unit with Jink can choose to use it or not, and if they do, they get a 4+ (yes, 4+) cover save, but they fire snap shots only in the next phase.
3. Flying Monstrous Creatures have taken a hit as well, you can no longer assault on the turn you change flight modes. Also, models need only take a single grounding test at the end of the Shooting phase, rather than every time they get shot.
4. Shooting works slightly differently now. When you select a unit to shoot, you then choose one of its weapons to shoot, then roll to hit, wound, etc. for every model with that weapon that is going to fire that weapon (since models can obviously only fire one gun per turn, mostly). Then you move onto the next weapon, until everything has fired.
5. Assaulting through terrain is different, you now roll 2d6 and subtract 2 from the distance, rather than rolling 3 and picking the two lowest.
6. Independent characters can no longer join Monstrous Creatures (so no more Buffmander + Riptide units).
7. Terrain rules have changed, in that they've removed the ridiculous terrain density thing. The book basically says to set the board up in such a way that both players are happy with it. In addition, you now deploy fortifications with your army, not when you put terrain on the board, meaning that you can actually safely put down your Defense Line without having the opposing player plop giant walls in front of it.
8. Lists can now be Battle-forged or Unbound; Battle-forged means that it comes from one army, Unbound lets you throw the FOC out the window and play whatever you want within the points limit. Also, Battle-forged lists can have any number of detachments at any points level.
9. The book has 6 new missions (Maelstrom of War) that utilize Tactical Objectives instead of the normal objectives. GW sells a deck of cards that lists them so you can just draw cards and use them as your objectives, but there's also a chart that you can roll on to generate them. They range from killing things in assault, taking specific objectives, getting into the enemy's deployment zone, all kinds of things. A full half of them are "Control X Objective," however. To make these objectives a little less insane to accomplish, since not every codex has troops that can fly across the board at a moment's notice, all models are scoring, with the exception of anything that is flying (dropping down to gliding/hovering makes them scoring again, however).
10. This is why Battle-forged and Unbound isn't as ridiculous as you might think: Troops from Battle-forged lists have the "Objective Secured" special rule, which means that nothing short of another Battle-forged Troops unit can contest the objective they're sitting on.
11. The Allies Matrix was changed a bit, the main thing to note is that alliances across the board have dropped. The majority of alliances are now either desperate or "Come the Apocalypse," with a few sprinklings of Allies of Convenience and Battle Brothers.
12. In addition to point 11, a "Come the Apocalypse" alliance no longer forbids allies, it simply makes it so that units from the two armies may not deploy within 12" of each other. Additionally, they have to deal with the "One Eye Open" rule that Desperate Allies have to deal with.
13. Not really a change (although I'm sure the rules HAVE changed a little), the main rule book now includes the rules for units that were previously Apoc/Escalation-only, like Gargantuan Creatures and Super-heavy Vehicles.
I'm sure there are plenty more, but those are the immediate ones that I can think of.
Edit: Oh, and GW has made it an official rule that you must agree with your opponent what is allowed in a list and what isn't allowed.
14. Template and Torrent weapons now burn units INSIDE open-topped vehicles.
15. Vector Strike is now AP 2.
Wounds from challenges spill over now? That's stupid? May house rule that one.
801
Post by: buddha
Other notes include:
- If you want to take a fortification you have to use the Stronghold Assault book. No stock forts in the main rulebook.
- Same for Lords of War needing Escalation as none are in the rulebook. (also interesting to note, it mentions LoW in codexes so look for them being included moving forward)
- Walkers and Jump Infantry both have HoW.
- Can't charge the turn after gliding for FMCs.
- Pinning has been removed from things like snipers and barrage. This sucks of course because pinned units cannot overwatch.
- You can basically take unlimited FOC from your faction and an allied faction so long as you meet the standard minimum of 1 HQ and 2 troops (or 1HQ and 1 Troop for allies).
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Post by: Mythantor
ausYenLoWang wrote: Vineheart01 wrote:Note that challenges like that one arent as bad as you think.
pg103
Outside Forces:
Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.
Basically meaning the big bad solo characters guarantee they can smack your pitiful sarge, but other than that the fight is normal since the unit has nothing else to swing at. Means the cheerleading is gone too, but big flippin deal lol.
Oh, and if the Sarge or other such character has any chance of surviving the attacks, but his unit doesnt, he can be a sponge for the unit. 5++ vs no save whatsoever, you might negate a couple before they spill out to the unit.
\
wounds yes, BUT you cant roll to hit a model in a challenge. so if there was leftovers on a squad that got krumped then it can carry over, but you cant just roll to hit
nothing in the rules stops you rolling to hit into a challenge, you just cannot allocate wounds into a challenge till the rest of the squad is dead.
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Post by: Vineheart01
Ah, found the loophole allowing it.
Challenges do not say you cannot hit the challengers, just not wound them. Hitting is in the Assault phase part of the book, which doesnt even MENTION challenges, let alone excludes them from generating attacks you can throw. It mentions as long as you are in b2b with an enemy model (note, no challenge exclusives here) or 2" from a friendly model with b2b contact of an enemy model, can swing.
Which reminds me, until i got to Characters i thought they removed challenges because the Assault Phase doesnt say Challenge in the entire section.
Also as a side bonus, determining the victor is only unsaved wounds now rather than counting 1 unsaved wound that instasporked a 3wound model as 3 points. Thank god, that made it too easy to lose with a T3/4 multiwound model.
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Post by: Orock
Template and Torrent weapons now burn units INSIDE open-topped vehicles.
Whelp, goodbye ork tactics.
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Post by: RivenSkull
Thud wrote: ausYenLoWang wrote: Thud wrote: ausYenLoWang wrote:am i reading skyfire right... it looks like it got the ass.
it no longer has the exception for where you have Skyfire AND interceptor and can shoot at ANYTHING, now skyfire is JUST the flyers etc and snap shots on anything else..
Looks like.
Is anything besides the gun emplacements affected though?
all Skyfire units, its not an option to turn on and off...
It is for Tau, and Flyers, and FMCs.
The new SM tanks never had Interceptor anyway, or IG Hydras for that matter.
I can't think of anyone, except gun emplacements, that are affected.
I'm really glad my Sentry Pylons have 3 weapon options. The Gauss Exterminator is both Interceptor and Skyfire, and is now useless for part of it's intended use of long range anti-tank/ MC and AA. Now that the Exterminator is the worst gun, I'd be pretty annoyed if they turned into a waste of money.
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Post by: invisiblade
And they shall know no fear - no longer move 9" on regroup.
Vehicles exploding no longer provides cover, and +1 str for models caught in the blast.
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Post by: wuestenfux
 invisiblade wrote:And they shall know no fear - no longer move 9" on regroup.
Vehicles exploding no longer provides cover, and +1 str for models caught in the blast.
Lots of random changes if you ask me.
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Post by: Xerics
a roll of one does nothing 2-5 does d3 wounds/ hull points that you can take invuln and covers saves on and a roll of a 6 is a D6+6 wounds with no saves. 6 is pretty much a deathblow to anything not a superheavy. Automatically Appended Next Post: Vineheart01 wrote:
Str D is interesting. Crazy nasty still compared to other weapons but not auto-obliterate like usual lol.
After rolling to hit, you roll a D6 for the result. Roll of a 1, nothing happens. Roll of a 2-5 the vehicle is Penn'd and suffers D3 hullpoints instead of one while in units a model suffers D3 auto wounds instead of one. A roll of 6 is NOT instant death anymore, but might as well be lol vehicles suffer D6+6 hullpoints and roll on the pen table and any models hit suffer D6+6 wounds. In this case, no saves of any kind are allowed including invul.
two interesting things here. remember Swarms taking double wounds from blasts, being FAQ'd saying it doesnt double the wound pool but every wound causes 2 wounds? This is worded the same way imo as Swarms was pre- faq, leading me to believe if you pass a cover/invul save on the 2-5 roll you pass the attack PERIOD whether it caused 3 wounds or 1, since it says "model" not unit.
While the loophole in FNP not being a save still seems to exist, the wording on the FNP rule makes it impossible to dodge these attacks as FNP says it cannot be taken against destroyer weapons. Sadface lol would be hilarious to have my nobs take a wound that would cause D6+6 and i FNP'd it
Oo, actually on the note of FNP it specifically says "can be used on attacks that state no saves of any kind are allowed" haha its no longer a loophole its intended! though not against StrD obviously or ID attacks.
You make a save against each wound. 1 Save will not negate all d3 wounds.
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Post by: TheKbob
Hey, all... was Hit and Run fixed or does it still only take one model in the unit to dispense it to ALL of the unit?
If it still works, St. Celestine just became a good friend to all the Imperium by dispensing that skill for cheap(er).
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Post by: Xerics
 TheKbob wrote:Hey, all... was Hit and Run fixed or does it still only take one model in the unit to dispense it to ALL of the unit?
If it still works, St. Celestine just became a good friend to all the Imperium by dispensing that skill for cheap(er).
Hit and run did not change. Only takes 1 model for the whole unit to do it.
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Post by: Sigvatr
RivenSkull wrote:
I'm really glad my Sentry Pylons have 3 weapon options. The Gauss Exterminator is both Interceptor and Skyfire, and is now useless for part of it's intended use of long range anti-tank/ MC and AA. Now that the Exterminator is the worst gun, I'd be pretty annoyed if they turned into a waste of money.
Maybe they'll get FAQ'd as right now, the new rules break with the fluff text. But yeah, if I played 7th, I would recommend switching to the Death Ray.
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Post by: Vineheart01
You make a save against each wound. 1 Save will not negate all d3 wounds.
But heres the thing, its worded as "The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically and causes it to lose D3 wounds instead of 1." That means its still causing a single "wound", meaning one save, but a failed save of said wound is more significant than normal since this wound removes D3 instead of 1. Which is how the Swarms were FAQ'd to explain it better, since it was worded the exact same way in the previous book and people took it as hitting a swarm with a blast doubles the wound pool...no it causes every unsaved wound to hurt them twice rather than once.
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Post by: ajsnips44
 raiden wrote:no one likes the tau. Not even the tau like the tau.
Been playing Tau since 4th and can honestly say the only Tau I like is my Tau. Automatically Appended Next Post: jasper76 wrote:It seems to me that you can no longer take an Allied Detatchment from a Codex Supplement. It would have to be its own FOC, because they equated Supllements as the same Faction as the parent Codex (p 126), and you can't have an Allied Detachment from the same faction as your Primary Detachment (p 122).
So Tau and Farisight enclaves are the same army now?
50832
Post by: Sigvatr
Vineheart01 wrote:You make a save against each wound. 1 Save will not negate all d3 wounds.
But heres the thing, its worded as "The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically and causes it to lose D3 wounds instead of 1."
If it's worded that way it works exactly like it does in WHFB. You suffer one (1) wound that can be saved, but if not, this one (1) wound is multiplied by d3.
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Post by: Panzer1944
Locclo wrote:There are some big changes, some little changes. Just a few off the top of my head:
4. Shooting works slightly differently now. When you select a unit to shoot, you then choose one of its weapons to shoot, then roll to hit, wound, etc. for every model with that weapon that is going to fire that weapon (since models can obviously only fire one gun per turn, mostly). Then you move onto the next weapon, until everything has fired..
When I read this rule I just kind of scratched my head. Isn’t this why people have different colored dice? You still dictate which wounds your opponent takes first, so not sure what to purpose of them adding that rule was other than to slow the game down.
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Post by: basherthe2nd
Am i reading it right that you can now charge from outflank? Rules say no charge from infiltrate, but can find nothing to stop outflank charges???
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Post by: Kain
basherthe2nd wrote:Am i reading it right that you can now charge from outflank? Rules say no charge from infiltrate, but can find nothing to stop outflank charges???
God I hope so, Genestealers need that to approach competitiveness.
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Post by: Xerics
Vineheart01 wrote:You make a save against each wound. 1 Save will not negate all d3 wounds.
But heres the thing, its worded as "The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically and causes it to lose D3 wounds instead of 1."
That means its still causing a single "wound", meaning one save, but a failed save of said wound is more significant than normal since this wound removes D3 instead of 1.
Which is how the Swarms were FAQ'd to explain it better, since it was worded the exact same way in the previous book and people took it as hitting a swarm with a blast doubles the wound pool...no it causes every unsaved wound to hurt them twice rather than once.
It will be interesting to see if this gets FAQ'd or not as it makes Destroyer Weapons even less useful. All it takes a single failure of a save for it to kill most models anyways due to its instant death rule and default STR10 when calculating for instant death. But if one save can save all d3 wounds then it makes destroyer weapons significantly less powerful and almost not worth the points. Seems like they will be more specialized to killing stuff without an invulnerable save due to mass amounts of 3+ invulnerable we are seeing these days.
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Post by: Locclo
basherthe2nd wrote:Am i reading it right that you can now charge from outflank? Rules say no charge from infiltrate, but can find nothing to stop outflank charges???
I'm afraid not. Outflank says that when you come on from Reserves, you roll to choose a side, then follow the normal rules for Reserves. Reserves rules say that you can't charge the turn you come on from Reserves (page 136). Hence, Outflanking units still can't assault the turn they come in.
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Post by: Vineheart01
Yea still pissed about that change in 6th, i was hoping they'd revert the Infiltrate and Outflank assaults in 7th because its insanely dumb to render many, many units completely and utterly useless without a point cut to compensate for virtually NEVER getting to do what theyre intended to do - assault without traversing the entire table. Most if not all of them are pretty squishy since they were made to assault before you could hit them....not anymore.
Also Str D needed nerfs if they were going to implement it into normal 40k, which they did. The original rule for Str D is auto wound, ignore all saves, instant death. Against models immune to ID it caused 3 wounds, of course none being save-able by any means.
Least you cant FNP the D weapon wounds. Its Str10 for ID purposes, but FNP says it cannot work against destroyer weapons anyway. For some reason they really, really didnt want to straight up give it Instant Death anymore, even though it might as well have it lol
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Post by: Xerics
Vineheart01 wrote:Yea still pissed about that change in 6th, i was hoping they'd revert the Infiltrate and Outflank assaults in 7th because its insanely dumb to render many, many units completely and utterly useless without a point cut to compensate for virtually NEVER getting to do what theyre intended to do - assault without traversing the entire table. Most if not all of them are pretty squishy since they were made to assault before you could hit them....not anymore.
Also Str D needed nerfs if they were going to implement it into normal 40k, which they did. The original rule for Str D is auto wound, ignore all saves, instant death. Against models immune to ID it caused 3 wounds, of course none being save-able by any means.
Least you cant FNP the D weapon wounds. Its Str10 for ID purposes, but FNP says it cannot work against destroyer weapons anyway. For some reason they really, really didnt want to straight up give it Instant Death anymore, even though it might as well have it lol
im glad you cant assault out of reserves, infiltrate, and outflank. I get enough outflanking meltas and bolters already to last me a lifetime the last thing I need are wolves coming out and assaulting me after they are done shooting me up.
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Post by: Kain
 Xerics wrote: Vineheart01 wrote:Yea still pissed about that change in 6th, i was hoping they'd revert the Infiltrate and Outflank assaults in 7th because its insanely dumb to render many, many units completely and utterly useless without a point cut to compensate for virtually NEVER getting to do what theyre intended to do - assault without traversing the entire table. Most if not all of them are pretty squishy since they were made to assault before you could hit them....not anymore.
Also Str D needed nerfs if they were going to implement it into normal 40k, which they did. The original rule for Str D is auto wound, ignore all saves, instant death. Against models immune to ID it caused 3 wounds, of course none being save-able by any means.
Least you cant FNP the D weapon wounds. Its Str10 for ID purposes, but FNP says it cannot work against destroyer weapons anyway. For some reason they really, really didnt want to straight up give it Instant Death anymore, even though it might as well have it lol
im glad you cant assault out of reserves, infiltrate, and outflank. I get enough outflanking meltas and bolters already to last me a lifetime the last thing I need are wolves coming out and assaulting me after they are done shooting me up.
Remember when Ymgarl genestealers and 5e vanguard veterans were sweeping tournament after tournament?
Anyone?
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Post by: ntdars
Were there any changes to Overwatch or Snap Shots? Do you still make them at BS1 or is it -2BS?
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Post by: Kain
 ntdars wrote:Were there any changes to Overwatch or Snap Shots? Do you still make them at BS1 or is it -2BS?
Still BS1.
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Post by: ntdars
 Kain wrote: ntdars wrote:Were there any changes to Overwatch or Snap Shots? Do you still make them at BS1 or is it -2BS?
Still BS1.
Well thank god for that. Hopefully Kommandos in the new Dex will at least be able to take Shootas so they won't be fething useless.
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Post by: tgf
Quick question, we couldn't find the statement from the last book that says if you have no models on the table at the end of a game turn you lose. Does this mean that tabling your opponent is no longer a guarnteed victory or does it mean that we simply couldn't find it?
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Post by: Xerics
Top of page 133, first paragraph on the right side. (7th edition book)
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Post by: Vineheart01
Wat! Kommandos no useless! Snikrot + Meganob boss = "Ambush" and tank the fire with the boss, split next turn and assault 2 things!
Ork FAQ specifically mentioned bikerboss, but its pretty clear its using it as an example since its on a bike, thus more odd than IC + Infiltrate (which still has the wording Infiltrators in the IC paragraph saying they cant join them, meaning you can join if you outflank still and not infiltrate).
Anyway, another change i havent seen anyone mention.
Vehicles are not only harder to explode, but theyre deadlier if they do. Its now a S4 hit to all models within D6 inches, not S3 anymore. That sucks for my Tau, as my tanks hiding behind my forces wound them on 3s now >.< - occupants are still S4 btw.
I imagine Trukk Ramshackle might make this S3 anyway, since it already reduces the interior damage to S3 rather than 4. Would make 0 sense to have the outside explosion more lethal than the internal one, even for an ork construct lol
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Post by: Nightlord1987
Anyone else notice the Tank photo in the Scouring mission page, and the BA in Big Guns photo.... Seems like that was a slip.... It was the exact opposite in the last rulebook.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
No Precision shots/strikes for Characters. It is now a Needs a 6 to hit rule now.
Take that super sniper Guard!
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Post by: Galorian
Thud wrote: ausYenLoWang wrote: Thud wrote: ausYenLoWang wrote:am i reading skyfire right... it looks like it got the ass.
it no longer has the exception for where you have Skyfire AND interceptor and can shoot at ANYTHING, now skyfire is JUST the flyers etc and snap shots on anything else..
Looks like.
Is anything besides the gun emplacements affected though?
all Skyfire units, its not an option to turn on and off...
It is for Tau, and Flyers, and FMCs.
The new SM tanks never had Interceptor anyway, or IG Hydras for that matter.
I can't think of anyone, except gun emplacements, that are affected.
My poor Sentry Pylons! 
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Post by: wuestenfux
As I don't have my ordered rule book yet, what's the deal with detachments and allies.
There seem to be differences here?
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Post by: Da krimson barun
Soooo....Is it better then 6th?
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Post by: Makumba
I can't think of anyone, except gun emplacements, that are affected.
Saber weapon platforms. Godly skyfire/interceptor lascannons or autocannons . For not much more points , but a lot more money, they were superior heavy weapon teams. Now AM has viable 0 anti air. Suddenly nids become a bad match up .
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Post by: Galorian
Jury still out on the new psyker rules and it won't be decided until we get some FAQs that detail how various related wargear and abilities work. Most of the crazier combos of 6th have been rendered unreliable or outright killed, but new army building rules may open up a new batch, have to wait and see on that one. Judging many of the other rule changes need to wait on the FAQs as well before we know if they rendered certain models borderline useless (various skyfire interceptors for examples) or somewhat overpowered.
So cautiously optimistic but have to wait and see.
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Post by: helotaxi
No one has mentioned the total rewrite of the chariot rules that make the Burning Chariot actually work right.
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Post by: Galorian
helotaxi wrote:No one has mentioned the total rewrite of the chariot rules that make the Burning Chariot actually work right.
Also makes the Necron CCB a super chariot as it still has the sweep attack rule in its codex entry.
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Post by: Locclo
helotaxi wrote:No one has mentioned the total rewrite of the chariot rules that make the Burning Chariot actually work right.
What codices actually get access to chariots? Because in the two years that 6th has been out, I literally never saw anyone use one, and I was playing 1-2 games a week for the entire time.
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Post by: Vineheart01
Daemons and Necrons. The necron's command barge thingie was used sometimes because of the TL tesla not because its a chariot. Now, it actually works like it seems like it should, so probably going to see a lot of them.
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Post by: Kyutaru
 wuestenfux wrote:As I don't have my ordered rule book yet, what's the deal with detachments and allies.
There seem to be differences here?
Detachments are for your core army. They represent the FOC in all its splendor, 2 HQ, 6 Troops, 3 Elites, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy, 1 Fortification, 1 Lord of War.
Your core army can take as many detachments of itself as it wants, sort of like allying with itself, as long as it meets the minimum 1 HQ, 2 Troops requirement.
You may also take detachments of Allies, which can be any other faction in the game, composed of 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 1 Elite, 1 Fast Attack, 1 Heavy (minimum 1 HQ, 1 Troop).
It's basically the same rules as 6th edition only you can now take as many FOCs as you want.
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Post by: Byte
 Smirrors wrote:Does skilled rider and turbo boosting affect jink saves I.e. Give +1. So skilled rider USR gives a jink of 3+ now? etc
Turbo boosting doesn't confer any cover save. Automatically Appended Next Post: Locclo wrote:There are some big changes, some little changes. Just a few off the top of my head:
7. Terrain rules have changed, in that they've removed the ridiculous terrain density thing. The book basically says to set the board up in such a way that both players are happy with it. In addition, you now deploy fortifications with your army, not when you put terrain on the board, meaning that you can actually safely put down your Defense Line without having the opposing player plop giant walls in front of it.
Terrain is set up before players determine deployment/table type and before player sides are determined. No guidance is provided on how to set up terrain other than have fun with it.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Kyutaru wrote: wuestenfux wrote:As I don't have my ordered rule book yet, what's the deal with detachments and allies.
There seem to be differences here?
Detachments are for your core army. They represent the FOC in all its splendor, 2 HQ, 6 Troops, 3 Elites, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy, 1 Fortification, 1 Lord of War.
Your core army can take as many detachments of itself as it wants, sort of like allying with itself, as long as it meets the minimum 1 HQ, 2 Troops requirement.
You may also take detachments of Allies, which can be any other faction in the game, composed of 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 1 Elite, 1 Fast Attack, 1 Heavy (minimum 1 HQ, 1 Troop).
It's basically the same rules as 6th edition only you can now take as many FOCs as you want.
Many thanks for clarifying.
Multiple detachments provide a tax ( HQ) in the first place. But psykers seem to be the new black. This seems to make multiple detachments worthwhile.
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Post by: Kyutaru
wuestenfux wrote:
Multiple detachments provide a tax ( HQ) in the first place. But psykers seem to be the new black. This seems to make multiple detachments worthwhile.
Yes, they're currently being abused for psykers... but something I don't think many people have noticed is that Fortifications and Lords of War have also become part of the core detachment.
This means for the price of a single HQ and two troops, you can field MULTIPLE Fortifications or Lords of War in your army.
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Post by: Byte
With no limits to CAD's, let the fun begin.
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Post by: SisterSydney
Wow. So at 1,500 points, an IG player could field two Baneblades.
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Post by: Byte
*starts assembling Baneblade.
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Post by: The Shadow
Ok, so, if I have 2 HQs and 4 Troops, I can therefore use, say, 6 Heavy Support choices as well? Or 2 Lords of War?
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Post by: Loopstah
Makumba wrote:
Now AM has viable 0 anti air. Suddenly nids become a bad match up .
Yes because we don't have:
Hydras
Sabres (they still work Vs flyers and skimmers)
Vendettas
ADL with quad gun
Thunderbolts
AM has the most AA options of the lot. The fact that they now only work (apart from the flyers of course) as AA just makes them less useful, not useless.
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Post by: Byte
 The Shadow wrote:Ok, so, if I have 2 HQs and 4 Troops, I can therefore use, say, 6 Heavy Support choices as well? Or 2 Lords of War?
and 2 fortifications. Yes.
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Post by: Nightlord1987
Heres one. Scenery Upgrades: upgrades purchased for a fortification, either placed on the buldings battlements, or 6 inches of the model taking the option.
So that clears people about where their quad-guns can go with an aegis.
Also, Linebreaker is 12 inches from your opponents Table Edge, not deployment zone.
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Post by: Fachxphyre
I understand that pinning now prevents a unit from firing overwatch . . . does going to ground similarly prevent a unit from firing overwatch? If not, could any unit targeted by one of the few pinning weapons remaining (such as stranglethorn cannons, barbed stranglers, etc) simply go to ground voluntarily and avoid this entirely? I've been wracking my brains trying to find a way to make a CC focused Nids army work in 7th, but this could be a serious sticking point. Well, that and the nerf to MC in general vis a vis the Smash nerf. Can anyone with the new codex confirm/deny that Going to Ground voluntarily doesn't prevent the unit from firing overwatch? I would look it up but the FLGS is sold out until Friday, and I'm trying to get some theory crafting done in the meantime. Thanks.
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Post by: Vineheart01
going to ground is the rule that denies overwatch. pinning causes an involuntary go to ground. thats why pinning also prevents overwatch. Since it happens after you fail to save, you dont get the +1 cover from that initial strike. Any following attacks the unit has +1 cover as though they went to ground.
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Post by: Fachxphyre
Fantastic news, thanks!
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Post by: Byte
So much for all the rage about Escalation and Stronghold Assault being included in the rulebook.
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Post by: Sir Arun
 Byte wrote:So much for all the rage about Escalation and Stronghold Assault being included in the rulebook.
well they are - you can take any fortification (including void shields) or Lords of War.
I think the Ork codex is going to bring a super heavy walker.
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Post by: Byte
Sir Arun wrote: Byte wrote:So much for all the rage about Escalation and Stronghold Assault being included in the rulebook.
well they are - you can take any fortification (including void shields) or Lords of War.
I think the Ork codex is going to bring a super heavy walker.
The angst was the two books would be rolled up in the rule book, making the two books bought individually a waste of money.
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Post by: Sir Arun
GW being GW, they'd rather have you both both instead
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Post by: Fos Kenos
Didn't notice if anyone mentioned this already, but...only 1 model per unit per phase can use a grenade.
This, with tougher vehicles and universal scoring are definitely gonna make me and my horde of killa kanz happy (baring new codex nerfing, anyway).
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Post by: Byte
 Fos Kenos wrote:Didn't notice if anyone mentioned this already, but...only 1 model per unit per phase can use a grenade.
This, with tougher vehicles and universal scoring are definitely gonna make me and my horde of killa kanz happy (baring new codex nerfing, anyway).
One model per unit can throw one shooty grenade(krak,haywire). All models can assault with one attack each with the appropriate assault grenade(krak, melta, haywire).
What's the change?
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Post by: Sir Arun
Wait so 6 Fire dragons now can only either:
A) Fire all their meltaguns and then assault with 1 melta bomb
or
B) twiddle their thumbs during the shooting phase and Assault with 6 melta bombs?
I guess they are the only unit in the meta really affected by this, right? AFAIK there arent many other units that have great anti-tank shooting AND great anti-tank grenade capability, so all the others can just shrug and not fire at the target with their puny guns and just assault it with all their grenades instead.
On hindsight Fire Dragons were indeed overpowered in 6th....being able to shoot all their fusion guns at a monstrous creature AND then charge it and finish it off with a shedload of S8 AP1 close combat attacks (1 per guy) at the high Initiative 5 meant they could easily be considered a monstrous creature by their own right.
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Post by: Byte
Sir Arun wrote:Wait so 6 Fire dragons now can only either:
A) Fire all their meltaguns and then assault with 1 melta bomb
or
B) twiddle their thumbs during the shooting phase and Assault with 6 melta bombs?
I guess they are the only unit in the meta really affected by this, right? AFAIK there arent many other units that have great anti-tank shooting AND great anti-tank grenade capability, so all the others can just shrug and not fire at the target with their puny guns and just assault it with all their grenades instead.
On hindsight Fire Dragons were indeed overpowered in 6th....being able to shoot all their fusion guns at a monstrous creature AND then charge it and finish it off with a shedload of S8 AP1 close combat attacks (1 per guy) at the high Initiative 5 meant they could easily be considered a monstrous creature by their own right.
There's no change from 6th. It's exactly the same.
One model per unit can throw one shooty grenade(krak,haywire). All models can assault with one attack each with the appropriate assault grenade(krak, melta, haywire).
I'm not understanding your "revelation".
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Post by: Sir Arun
I guess I misunderstoof Fos Kenos' comment
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Post by: Byte
Yep, gotcha. I think he was confuzzled.
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Post by: Sir Arun
How are Nid players going to deal with Imperial Knight armies, now that smash attacks have taken a serious beating?
I take it Tyrannofex and Zoanthrope spam is all that's left?
Maybe a Carnifex Brood with Crushing Claws...
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Post by: Kain
Sir Arun wrote:How are Nid players going to deal with Imperial Knight armies, now that smash attacks have taken a serious beating?
I take it Tyrannofex and Zoanthrope spam is all that's left?
Maybe a Carnifex Brood with Crushing Claws...
Rupture Cannon Tyrannofexes were bad in 5th edition when they had a one in three chance of killing a vehicle on a penetrating hit, they were bad in 6th edition when that chance was cut in half (thus forcing them to rely on hull point stripping), and they are even worse in 7th now that they can only kill a vehicle by HP stripping.
Haywire is going to be the most reliable Tyranid anti-vehicle shooting, utilizing psychic powers is a bit wonky, especially since Psychic lances have taken such a huge hit (first they were downgraded from AP1 to AP2, then they were slapped by the new chart and then found that warp lance is harder to get off, and brotherhood of psykers turned out to be a secret nerf that puts a dampener on the dice you can put into shooting with them) any Tyranid weapon that relied on penetrating armor to kill a vehicle has been pretty much rendered useless by the new chart since they were all AP4.
In melee, crushing claw carnifexes, tervigons (though not really with their terrible WS and weight of attack per point) and tyrant guard are the last Tyranids who are good in melee against vehicles unless you want to blow your points on a ridiculously overpriced character build where you dump the Reaper, Adrenal Glands, and Ymgarl mutations on one model and then cry yourself to sleep when you realize you're spending an absurd number of points for a mediocre beatstick. Rending claw+adrenal glands warriors and genestealers I suppose can work...but that's an awful lot of points to pay for painful mediocrity. And it'd be crap against Knights anyway.
Which is a shame, because it means that awesome diorama of an ultramarine coloured Imperial Knight vs a Hive Fleet Behemoth Trygon is now not the evenly matched pacific rim style epic duel the diorama suggests, but an utterly one sided curb-stomp.
So yeah, get your crones and shockgrub tyrants ready and get ready for another round of "assaulty armies having to be mostly shooty if they want to win."
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Post by: Sir Arun
So are Catacomb Command Barges ridiculously broken now?
AV 13 quantum shielding
melta hits can be allocated to T5 Necron Lord by Necron player instead of vehicle
Necron Lord's 3++ phase shifter works on vehicle too
Reanimation Protocols brings back barge
If Lord has Res Orb, it'll be brought back on a 4+ each time it is wrecked...
like what the hell
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