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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/28/kerry-snowden-nsa.html
Secretary of State John Kerry has blasted former NSA contractor Edward Snowden as a “confused” man who “betrayed his country,” rebutting the whistleblower’s claim that his exile in Russia is the fault of the U.S. government.
Kerry's comments came ahead of the scheduled airing on Wednesday evening of Snowden’s first sit-down interview with a U.S. network. In excerpts released by NBC, Snowden — who fled the United States after leaking classified documents detailing massive surveillance by the U.S. government — said he “never intended to end up in Russia.”
“I had a flight booked to Cuba onwards to Latin America, and I was stopped because the United States government decided to revoke my passport and trap me in Moscow airport. So when people ask, ‘Why are you in Russia?’ I say, ‘Please ask the State Department,’” Snowden said.
Kerry reacted bluntly to the accusation. “For a supposedly smart guy, that’s a pretty dumb answer,” he told NBC. Snowden has previously said he acted out of “good conscience” to protect privacy and basic liberties.
“If he cares so much about America and he believes in America, he should trust in the American system of justice,” Kerry said. “But to be hiding in Russia, an authoritarian country, and to have just admitted that he was really trying to get to Cuba — I mean, what does that tell you? I think he’s confused, I think it’s very sad, but this is a man who has done great damage to his country.”
Snowden also claimed in the interview that he was trained as a spy and has worked undercover and overseas for both the National Security Agency (NSA) and the CIA, comments that Kerry would not address Wednesday morning.
“I was trained as a spy in sort of the traditional sense of the word, in that I lived and worked undercover overseas pretending to work in a job that I’m not and even being assigned a name that was not mine,” Snowden said. “When they say I’m a low-level systems administrator, that I don’t know what I’m talking about, I’d say it’s somewhat misleading.”
While working as a computer network administrator, Snowden removed tens of thousands of secret documents from an NSA facility in Hawaii and then leaked them to the media. The aftermath of those leaks shook the American intelligence establishment and resulted in Snowden being charged with espionage and other offenses in the U.S. He could face 30 years in prison if convicted.
Kerry, meanwhile, told CBS on Wednesday that Snowden’s actions had harmed national security and that through his actions he had “told terrorists what they can now do to be able to avoid detection.”
“He should man up and come back to the United States if he has a complaint about what’s the matter with American surveillance, come back here and stand in our system of justice and make his case,” Kerry said. “But instead he is just sitting [in Russia] taking potshots at his country.”
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Post by: Palindrome
 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
“If he cares so much about America and he believes in America, he should trust in the American system of justice,”
I wouldn't.
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Post by: Jihadin
Kerry is a idiot at times
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Post by: Ahtman
he should trust in the American system of justice
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Post by: cincydooley
Kerry can shut his dopey mouth. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well that certainly deserves an exalt.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
From the government thought brought y... Leaked you PRISM, just trust us 
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Post by: Medium of Death
Using the term "Man Up" in this context... what a spank.
Snowden should take a selfie with Putin and send it to Kerry with the words "U MAD BRO?" written across it. Up the childishness factor by a million.
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Post by: Jihadin
Snowden can really spark a outrage from Kerry by wearing the medals that Kerry threw away 
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Post by: Frazzled
You should be selective in who you respond to. It can elevate them up, and lower you down.
A better response would be "because he's a traitor and we still hang traitors here."
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Post by: Medium of Death
Surely he's a hero of the people?
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Post by: Jihadin
Paper Hero in his own mind
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
For all the fears of people getting killed as a result of his leaks, has that happened?
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Post by: whembly
That's classified son.
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Post by: Jihadin
Thinking Manning I believe
Snowden release PRISM and something about US Government is in contact with Aliens. Snowden did not have access with military operations and what not I think.
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Post by: daedalus
My guess is that they probably put more lives at risk when they accidentally outed the Intel guy.
The only things Snowden has hurt were facades.
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Post by: Flashman
I think he did the right thing. Whether or not the systems he exposed were being abused (and they probably were), this kind of mass surveillance teeters on the edge of plain wrong. A corrective was/is needed.
You would have thought he'd have researched his escape plan a bit better though. Cuba via Hong Kong and Russia? Was he trying to accumulate enough air miles to live off?
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Post by: Jihadin
Public opinions against the government to
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Post by: TheSilo
I'm sorry to say that I once would have voted for Kerry.
How can anyone trust a "justice" system that holds people for years without trial, endorses torture, spies on citizens without warrants, classifies all men 18+ in conflict zones as terrorists, and assassinated an American citizen?
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Post by: Medium of Death
Government in contact with Aliens? I thought he never released the Alien stuff because, sadly, it was all bs?
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Yeah... that coming from the guy who said on camera, that you work hard and go to college, get a degree and a good job...OR you join the military.
Seriously, Kerry needs to be given a speaking profile (my US military brethren will get it)
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Post by: Ouze
The US doesn't have a justice system. We have a legal system.
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Post by: Crablezworth
Kerry, part of the same administration that will leak absolutely anything that aids them politically while claiming anyone else leaking things is a godless terrorist traitor. RIIIIIIIGHT
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Post by: -Shrike-
This guy makes Michael Gove look like a genius. "Man up and face American justice! You have nothing to fear, citizen subject terrorist!" 
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Post by: Easy E
Tell that to Bradley Manning.
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Post by: Medium of Death
It's not Bradley any more is it?
thatsthejoke.jpg
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Difference is, Manning is a fething traitor, and worthless scum in my eyes... I'm sorry, you simply just do NOT do what he/she/it did to the people who wear the same uniform as you do.
I don't know what kind of "oaths" or whatever Snowden had to say as part of being a civilian contractor, but Manning had a whole lot more riding on him than Snowden.
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Post by: Crablezworth
If masculinity can only be achieved by serving 35 years in prison, I completely understand wanting a sex change.
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Post by: Ouze
I initially thought that Snowden was a traitor, but now that the full scope of the NSA's activities have come to light, I'm no longer so sure about that.
I mean, you expect your government to indulge in some excesses, but this seems to have gone a bit beyond that. When people claim that there is media bias protecting Obama vs Bush, I generally think thats a load of crap but I can't really find another explanation for why the President is not being crucified in the media as he should be over this.
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Post by: cincydooley
 Ouze wrote:I initially thought that Snowden was a traitor, but now that the full scope of the NSA's activities have come to light, I'm no longer so sure about that.
I felt the same way initially.
But the more I read about the programs he disclosed, the more I think his actions were truly to the benefit of the American people.
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Post by: Orlanth
i think Snowden will see John Kerry's challenge as an IQ test, which he will pass.
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Post by: Ahtman
What I like about John Kerry is that he often unites Conservatives and Liberals, left and right, in their dislike of him. He brings people together.
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Post by: TheSilo
 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Difference is, Manning is a fething traitor, and worthless scum in my eyes... I'm sorry, you simply just do NOT do what he/she/it did to the people who wear the same uniform as you do.
I don't know what kind of "oaths" or whatever Snowden had to say as part of being a civilian contractor, but Manning had a whole lot more riding on him than Snowden.
I think his point is that the military held Manning in solitary confinement without filing charges for over a year. During which he didn't have a bed, wasn't allowed to speak or exercise, and had jailors wake him every four hours (as a "precaution against suicide"). The UN Special Rapporteur called the conditions "cruel, inhuman and degrading."
There was a time when we charged someone with a crime and carried out the sentence, following the law. Instead, our system now locks alleged criminals away without access to trial or attorney. The military picked some people up in Afghanistan who've been sitting in prison for eight years without any charges. Once upon a time, if you couldn't convict someone in a court of law, then they weren't criminals.
How could anyone of sound mind (like Snowden) turn themselves into that sort of corrupt system? We used to give our citizens due process.
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Post by: Crablezworth
Well said silo, exalted.
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Post by: Fafnir
Disappear, be tortured for a year and killed quietly in a cell like a man! American justice!
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
 TheSilo wrote:
How could anyone of sound mind (like Snowden) turn themselves into that sort of corrupt system? We used to give our citizens due process.
And I agree with you that Snowden is being very smart by NOT complying with Kerry's wishes. Quite frankly, even IF a trial went ahead with Snowden located in a safe place, and he was found innocent, were I him, I wouldn't come back to the US.
Also there is a pretty big difference between what the UCMJ, which manning falls under, and civil law, which Snowden falls under.
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Post by: Ouze
 Ahtman wrote:What I like about John Kerry is that he often unites Conservatives and Liberals, left and right, in their dislike of him. He brings people together.
And that makes his face droop with joy.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
Ouze wrote: Ahtman wrote:What I like about John Kerry is that he often unites Conservatives and Liberals, left and right, in their dislike of him. He brings people together.
And that makes his face droop with joy.
Celebratory warning shot!
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Post by: Jihadin
Was that a shot across his bow on his yacht?
Like Ensis said Manning falls under UCMJ, Uniform Code of Military Justice, compare to Snowden fallen under Federal/Civil/State/whatever else can fit in on Snowden
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Post by: LordofHats
I swear I just had the most brain dead conversation about this with a friend. Make it short his words were "Kerry is right. He should come back and face trial for his treasonous actions." My response "He'd be insane to come back because people like you would be on the jury."
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Post by: SlaveToDorkness
He really should man up, just like Bradley Manning.
Oh, wait.... Lol
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Post by: LordofHats
 Jihadin wrote:Like Ensis said Manning falls under UCMJ, Uniform Code of Military Justice, compare to Snowden fallen under Federal/Civil/State/whatever else can fit in on Snowden
I also think a clear distinction can be shown between the actions of Manning and Snowden. Manning recklessly released information indiscriminately, revealed no real scandals by his actions, and really was just an idiot. Snowden released specific information about a specific program. Manning is a whiny disgruntled baby pretending to be a whistle blower. Snowden actually is a whistle blower.
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Post by: Seaward
It's possible to be both a whistleblower and a traitor. He's both. I don't agree with everything the NSA did; I don't agree with Snowden exposing everything his TS/SCI allowed him access to. The notion that he alone is qualified to determine what the American public should and should not know is ludicrous. He engaged in the textbook definition of espionage to do what he did.
I also think he lost his "warrior of the people for truth and justice" credibility when he willingly became Putin's sockpuppet.
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Post by: gorgon
 Seaward wrote:It's possible to be both a whistleblower and a traitor. He's both. I don't agree with everything the NSA did; I don't agree with Snowden exposing everything his TS/SCI allowed him access to. The notion that he alone is qualified to determine what the American public should and should not know is ludicrous. He engaged in the textbook definition of espionage to do what he did.
I also think he lost his "warrior of the people for truth and justice" credibility when he willingly became Putin's sockpuppet.
Very well said.
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Post by: Easy E
Please tell me what Snowden did to be PUtin's sock puppet.
I seem to recall Snowden challenging Putin on Russian National TV over their own domestic spying programs. NOt exactly sock puppet behaviour.
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Post by: Khornholio
Kerry should man-up and admit who his real bosses are ( cuz it ain't the electorate)
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Post by: Orlanth
Allowing for what the US government wants to do to Julian Assange, who has no legal or moral obligation to be discrete over leaked US government documentation; what more would they do to a US national.
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Post by: gorgon
 Easy E wrote:Please tell me what Snowden did to be PUtin's sock puppet.
I seem to recall Snowden challenging Putin on Russian National TV over their own domestic spying programs. NOt exactly sock puppet behaviour.
Please. He didn't "challenge" Putin, he gave him a softball question to set up Putin's "explanation." Putin has fairly obviously used Snowden for PR purposes, and Snowden fairly obviously doesn't care so long as his ass is safe.
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Post by: Minx
 gorgon wrote: Easy E wrote:Please tell me what Snowden did to be PUtin's sock puppet.
I seem to recall Snowden challenging Putin on Russian National TV over their own domestic spying programs. NOt exactly sock puppet behaviour.
Please. He didn't "challenge" Putin, he gave him a softball question to set up Putin's "explanation." Putin has fairly obviously used Snowden for PR purposes, and Snowden fairly obviously doesn't care so long as his ass is safe.
Sounds rather like the smart thing to do in his situation. Where else could he run if he pissed of Putin? That doesn't diminish everything he's done and sacrificed.
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Post by: Seaward
Easy E wrote:Please tell me what Snowden did to be PUtin's sock puppet.
I seem to recall Snowden challenging Putin on Russian National TV over their own domestic spying programs. NOt exactly sock puppet behaviour.
Did you actually watch Snowden "challening" Putin on Russian TV?
I don't consider tossing a pre-arranged softball for the sole purpose of making the individual being "challenged" look good to meet the definition of that particular word, but then I suppose your mileage may vary.
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Post by: daedalus
Seaward wrote: Easy E wrote:Please tell me what Snowden did to be PUtin's sock puppet.
I seem to recall Snowden challenging Putin on Russian National TV over their own domestic spying programs. NOt exactly sock puppet behaviour.
Did you actually watch Snowden "challening" Putin on Russian TV?
I don't consider tossing a pre-arranged softball for the sole purpose of making the individual being "challenged" look good to meet the definition of that particular word, but then I suppose your mileage may vary.
Why not? It's what we do in the US too.
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.
"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"
What a gakker.
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Post by: Fafnir
 Co'tor Shas wrote:Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.
"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"
What a gakker.
Yeah, it's not like the US government cancelled his passport when he was on his way to another location, leaving him stranded there.
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Post by: daedalus
Co'tor Shas wrote:Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.
"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"
What a gakker.
You sure it's not just Russia that you hate? Because it kind of more seems that way.
Out of curiosity, what would you have had him do? Stick around, not be able to get anything out in the open, and then get tossed into some US gul.. err, "enhanced interrogation camp" somewhere?
The only places he COULD go and not get killed/returned/imprisoned indefinitely WERE places that upset your sensibilities. Consider that anywhere pleasant would have just immediately returned him, after probably smacking him around a bit themselves for pointing out the man behind the curtain.
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
 Fafnir wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia. "Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!" What a gakker.
Yeah, it's not like the US government cancelled his passport when he was on his way to another location, leaving him stranded there.
Then live in the airport and make a deal with the US gov. to not reveal any more info in return for a pardon. I'm sure they would have loved that, especially since it would mean that Russia doesn't get any info. He has always seemed to be a bit self-serving, and arrogant to me.
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Post by: thenoobbomb
Co'tor Shas wrote: Fafnir wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.
"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"
What a gakker.
Yeah, it's not like the US government cancelled his passport when he was on his way to another location, leaving him stranded there.
Then live in the airport and make a deal with the US gov. to not reveal any more info in return for a pardon. I'm sure they would have loved that, especially since it would mean that Russia doesn't get any info. He has always seemed to be a bit self-serving, and arrogant to me.
That would go against exactly what he 'preaches'.
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
 thenoobbomb wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote: Fafnir wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.
"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"
What a gakker.
Yeah, it's not like the US government cancelled his passport when he was on his way to another location, leaving him stranded there.
Then live in the airport and make a deal with the US gov. to not reveal any more info in return for a pardon. I'm sure they would have loved that, especially since it would mean that Russia doesn't get any info. He has always seemed to be a bit self-serving, and arrogant to me.
That would go against exactly what he 'preaches'.
So it would be better to give only Russia the info?
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Post by: thenoobbomb
But he doesn't. He makes it public.
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Post by: -Shrike-
Co'tor Shas wrote: Fafnir wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.
"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"
What a gakker.
Yeah, it's not like the US government cancelled his passport when he was on his way to another location, leaving him stranded there.
Then live in the airport and make a deal with the US gov. to not reveal any more info in return for a pardon. I'm sure they would have loved that, especially since it would mean that Russia doesn't get any info. He has always seemed to be a bit self-serving, and arrogant to me.
Not reveal any more in return for a pardon? That's one of the most unlikely scenarios I can imagine. No, I'd say that as soon as he stepped foot in America, regardless of any previous arrangements, he would be detained until such time as the government felt like giving him a trial.
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Post by: daedalus
I feel like you're inventing scenarios.
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
And what has he said recently? He is supposed to still have a bunch of other info, which now the Russian gov has. He worked for the NSA and got a lot of info, you can't honestly believe that this is all he saw.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
Co'tor Shas wrote: thenoobbomb wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote: Fafnir wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.
"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"
What a gakker.
Yeah, it's not like the US government cancelled his passport when he was on his way to another location, leaving him stranded there.
Then live in the airport and make a deal with the US gov. to not reveal any more info in return for a pardon. I'm sure they would have loved that, especially since it would mean that Russia doesn't get any info. He has always seemed to be a bit self-serving, and arrogant to me.
That would go against exactly what he 'preaches'.
So it would be better to give only Russia the info?
That's weird considering how many articles I read based off his leaks.
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Post by: thenoobbomb
Co'tor Shas wrote:
And what has he said recently? He is supposed to still have a bunch of other info, which now the Russian gov has. He worked for the NSA and got a lot of info, you can't honestly believe that this is all he saw.
He's leaking stuff over time.
I think he'll also keep some stuff to himself, as a sort of life insurance: "If you get me killed, this information will be published".
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
Just some calcification, I'm talking about info he is still supposed to have but has not given to the public because it has nothing to do with PRISIM.
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Post by: daedalus
Co'tor Shas wrote:Just some calcification, I'm talking about info he is still supposed to have but has not given to the public because it has nothing to do with PRISIM.
Do you have a link to something suggesting that such a thing exists? I can't find anything.
I DID find an NY Times article with "snowden-says-he-was-a-spy" in the link, in spite of the fact that in the body of the actual article, it says that he says he said he's NOT a spy. That made me chuckle.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
Co'tor Shas wrote:Just some calcification, I'm talking about info he is still supposed to have but has not given to the public because it has nothing to do with PRISIM.
So you're upset that he's releasing it over time instead of the shotgun approach so we can all forget about him in a month?
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:Just some calcification, I'm talking about info he is still supposed to have but has not given to the public because it has nothing to do with PRISIM.
So you're upset that he's releasing it over time instead of the shotgun approach so we can all forget about him in a month?
What? no. I'm not upset at all. I couldn't care less about him or his info, I just think he was stupid to go to Russia.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Wait wait wait.
What's this about aliens?
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
....
What.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Snowden leaked a blatantly false accusation that the Government had covered up the existence of aliens.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
 Grey Templar wrote:
Snowden leaked a blatantly false accusation that the Government had covered up the existence of aliens.
I thought the documents that he released regarding UFO's were part of some training course
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Post by: Dust
I think it's tremendously ironic for Kerry to tell someone to "man up"
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
Why?
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Post by: thenoobbomb
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote: Grey Templar wrote:
Snowden leaked a blatantly false accusation that the Government had covered up the existence of aliens.
I thought the documents that he released regarding UFO's were part of some training course
Along with zombies, I recall.
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Post by: Ahtman
I'm guessing because he himself isn't seen as very masculine.
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Post by: Flashman
Ever wonder if this is just an elaborate plot to narrow the search for internet based terrorists. Anyone deemed to be engaged in suspicious activity who immediately stopped using the internet in the aftermath of the Snowden revelations has surely got to be a prime suspect.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
 Flashman wrote:Ever wonder if this is just an elaborate plot to narrow the search for internet based terrorists. Anyone deemed to be engaged in suspicious activity who immediately stopped using the internet in the aftermath of the Snowden revelations has surely got to be a prime suspect.
.
Whoever talks about Snowden the longest is the terrorist!
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Post by: Vaktathi
If I were Snowden, I don't think I'd be rising to Kerry's taunt. Otherwise it's just a good way to get black bagged and spend quite a bit of time in prison.
I do not understand this administration's approach to the situation, they really are going out of their way to show that was this guy did was the correct course of action and that he really should not come back.
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Post by: Ketara
Let's see......spend the next ten years in solitary confinement in America, or live in isolation in communist Russia....
Great choices.
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Post by: Jihadin
It get cold in Russia. Serbian winter can shatter anyone who "Man Up" to it. Ask the Germans from a certain time period 
As for Kerry and his questionable integrity on his war time award(s) and to include Snowden action. Dueling idiots
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Post by: mega_bassist
Ouze wrote:The US doesn't have a justice system. We have a legal system.
And you can take my Exalt for today
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Post by: Fafnir
Co'tor Shas wrote: Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:Just some calcification, I'm talking about info he is still supposed to have but has not given to the public because it has nothing to do with PRISIM.
So you're upset that he's releasing it over time instead of the shotgun approach so we can all forget about him in a month?
What? no. I'm not upset at all. I couldn't care less about him or his info, I just think he was stupid to go to Russia.
It's kind of difficult to get to anywhere pleasant when your travel route can only include countries that won't extradite to the US. It also doesn't help to have your passport cancelled half-way through your trip.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
EDWARD SNOWDEN SEES HIMSELF AS A PATRIOT
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/28/edward-snowden-nbcinterview.html
Former U.S. National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden said in an interview that he takes the threat of terrorism very seriously and views himself as a patriot, and insisted he is not under the control of Russia's government and has given Moscow no intelligence documents after nearly a year of asylum there.
"I have no relationship with the Russian government at all," Snowden told NBC News in an interview – the whistleblower’s first with a U.S. television network – aired late Wednesday. "I'm not supported by the Russian government. I'm not taking money from the Russian government. I'm not a spy."
The remarks by Snowden, whose leaks about highly classified U.S. surveillance programs upended the NSA, upset millions of ordinary people as well as world leaders and prompted limited reforms by President Barack Obama, were his most extensive to date on his relations with his host government.
While some U.S. government officials have said Snowden's leaks could benefit those wishing to harm American interests, he insisted that he takes "the threat of terrorism seriously."
"I was on Fort Meade [in Maryland, where the NSA is headquartered] on Sept. 11th. I was right outside the NSA. So, I remember the tension on that day. I remember hearing on the radio the planes hitting. And I remember thinking my grandfather, who worked for the FBI at the time, was in the Pentagon when the plane hit it," Snowden said.
"And I think it's really disingenuous for the government to invoke and sort of scandalize our memories to sort of exploit the national trauma that we all suffered together, and worked so hard to come through, to justify programs that have never been shown to keep us safe."
But Current and former U.S. intelligence officials have said it is unlikely Russian security services have not squeezed Snowden for secrets.
Snowden — who said he wants to return to the United States — said he destroyed classified materials before transiting to a Moscow airport, where he was prevented from onward travel.
"I took nothing to Russia, so I could give them nothing," he told NBC's Brian Williams in the hour-long interview.
Meanwhile, U.S. officials have said he was welcome to return to the United States if he wanted to face justice for leaking details of massive U.S. intelligence-gathering programs.
"If I could go anywhere in the world, that place would be home," Snowden told Williams in an interview that is one of several he has given since leaving the U.S.
Asked how eager he was to make a deal to return to the United States, Snowden replied: “My priority is not about myself. It’s about making sure that these programs are reformed — and that the family that I left behind, the country that I left behind — can be helped by my actions.”
But when asked why he doesn’t go home and "face the music," as suggested by some in the U.S. government, he said that "the music is not an open and fair court."
Snowden who fled to Hong Kong before ending up in Moscow, is believed to have taken 1.7 million computerized documents. The leaked documents revealed massive programs run by the NSA that gathered information on emails, phone calls and Internet use by millions of Americans and others worldwide.
He was charged last year in the United States with theft of government property, unauthorized communication of national defense information and willful communication of classified intelligence to an unauthorized person.
Earlier on Wednesday, Secretary of State John Kerry invited Snowden to "man up and come back to the United States" on the CBS "This Morning" program on Wednesday.
Snowden contended he did not betray his country when Williams said "A lot of people would say, 'You've badly damaged your country.” Snowden responded “I'd say, 'Can you show that?” He, and others contend, none of the information he had leaked has damaged the United States. Indeed, he said that he “demanded” that journalists he gave documents to consult with the government before publication.
He said he took information and turned it over so people wouldn’t get killed. "I didn’t want to take information that... would cause harm to individuals, that would cause people to die," he said.
Snowden repeated what he has said in the past, that he went through proper channels to raise concerns with the NSA, only to be told to stop asking questions.
Saying he saw himself as a patriot, Snowden said to Williams: "The reality is the situation determined that this needed to be told to the public. The Constitution of the United States had been violated on a massive scale.
"I think it’s important to remember that people don’t set their lives on fire, they don’t say goodbye to their families ... they don’t walk away from their extraordinarily comfortable lives ... and burn down everything they love for no reason.”
U.S. officials also fired back at Snowden’s comments in an excerpt from the NBC interview that aired on Tuesday in which he said he was trained as a spy and that he worked undercover and overseas for the CIA and the NSA.
Asked by CNN if that were true, White House national security adviser Susan Rice replied: "No."
In the material aired Wednesday, Snowden said it misleading for the government to describe him as a low-level systems operator. He described himself as a technical expert who has worked for the United States at high levels, including as a lecturer in a counterintelligence academy for the Defense Intelligence Agency.
“But I am a technical specialist. I am a technical expert,” he said. “I don’t work with people. I don’t recruit agents. What I do is I put systems to work for the United States. And I’ve done that at all levels from — from the bottom on the ground all the way to the top.”
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Post by: Ouze
It also appears that he made at least some attempt to report the excesses he saw from within the system initially before going to the press.
NSA releases Edward Snowden e-mail exchange
Washington (CNN) -- The NSA has released an e-mail exchange between Edward Snowden and the agency's general counsel's office, countering a claim the former contractor made in an interview this week.
Speaking to NBC News in an interview that aired Wednesday, Snowden claimed that he'd reached out to the office while working as an National Security Agency contractor to report what he saw as an abuse of power by the agency.
"I reported that there were real problems with the way the NSA was interpreting its legal authorities," he told NBC's Brian Williams.
In the e-mail exchange released by the NSA Thursday, Snowden requests clarification about training material he'd received, asking whether executive orders can override federal laws.
The general counsel's office responded to Snowden's e-mail, saying that executive orders have the "force and effect of law" but cannot override a statute.
"Please give me a call if you would like to discuss further," the e-mail concludes.
In his interview with NBC, Snowden said that after raising concerns, he essentially was told to "stop asking questions."
He described his contact with the general counsel's office as an indication of what he said were his efforts to go through official channels to raise his concerns about the NSA before leaking classified documents.
In a statement Thursday, the NSA said the e-mail exchange it released was the only communication found and there was no evidence Snowden followed up.
"We have searched for additional indications of outreach from him in those areas and to date have not discovered any engagements related to his claims," the statement said.
Snowden said Thursday that the e-mail exchange released by the NSA was "a strangely tailored and incomplete leak," telling The Washington Post that it "only shows the NSA feels it has something to hide."
"If the White House is interested in the whole truth, rather than the NSA's clearly tailored and incomplete leak today for a political advantage, it will require the NSA to ask my former colleagues, management, and the senior leadership team about whether I, at any time, raised concerns about the NSA's improper and at times unconstitutional surveillance activities," Snowden told the newspaper. "It will not take long to receive an answer."
source
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Post by: Jihadin
Should have asked for that in written and take a "verbal". Yet no name who gave him a verbal
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Post by: Ouze
what is "a verbal"? Like, intentionally get written up?
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Post by: Jihadin
First offense is a verbal
follow by a written
follow by written and corrective action
follow by reprimand and negative action
follow by removal from job
Edit
Verbal warning
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Post by: Ouze
Yeah, but why would it have been a good idea to have taken a verbal? Just to get it in writing (yes, at my job, "verbal" warnings are actually copiously documented)
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Post by: Relapse
 Dust wrote:I think it's tremendously ironic for Kerry to tell someone to "man up"
Is it? From Wiki on Kerry's military service:
During the night of December 2 and early morning of December 3, 1968, Kerry was in charge of a small boat operating near a peninsula north of Cam Ranh Bay together with a Swift boat (PCF-60). According to Kerry and the two crewmen who accompanied him that night, Patrick Runyon and William Zaladonis, they surprised a group of men unloading sampans at a river crossing, who began running and failed to obey an order to stop. As the men fled, Kerry and his crew opened fire on the sampans and destroyed them, then rapidly left. During this encounter, Kerry received a shrapnel wound in the left arm above the elbow. It was for this injury that Kerry received his first Purple Heart.[20]
Kerry received his second Purple Heart for a wound received in action on the Bo De River on February 20, 1969. The plan had been for the Swift boats to be accompanied by support helicopters. On the way up the Bo De, however, the helicopters were attacked. As the Swift boats reached the Cua Lon River, Kerry's boat was hit by a RPG round, and a piece of shrapnel hit Kerry's left leg, wounding him. Thereafter, they had no more trouble, and reached the Gulf of Thailand safely. Kerry still has shrapnel in his left thigh because the doctors tending to him decided to remove the damaged tissue and close the wound with sutures rather than make a wide opening to remove the shrapnel.[21] Kerry received his second Purple Heart for this injury, but like several others wounded earlier that day, he did not lose any time off from duty.[22][23]
Eight days later, on February 28, 1969, came the events for which Kerry was awarded his Silver Star. On this occasion, Kerry was in tactical command of his Swift boat and two others in an eight boat formation. Their mission on the Duong Keo river included bringing a demolition team and dozens of South Vietnamese Marines to destroy enemy sampans, structures and bunkers as described in the story The Death Of PCF 43.[24] Running into an ambush, Kerry "directed the boats to turn to the beach and charge the Viet Cong positions" and he "expertly directed" his boat's fire and coordinated the deployment of the South Vietnamese troops, according to the original medal citation (signed by Admiral Zumwalt). Going a short distance farther, Kerry's boat was the target of an RPG round; as the boat hove to and beached, a Viet Cong (" VC") insurgent armed with a rocket launcher emerged from a spider hole and ran. While the boat's gunner opened fire, wounding the VC in the leg, and while the other boats approached and offered cover fire, Kerry jumped from the boat to chase the VC insurgent, subsequently killing him and capturing his loaded rocket launcher.[25][26][27]
Kerry's commanding officer, Lieutenant Commander George Elliott, joked to Douglas Brinkley in 2003 that he didn't know whether to court-martial Kerry for beaching the boat without orders or give him a medal for saving the crew. Elliott recommended Kerry for the Silver Star, and Zumwalt flew into An Thoi to personally award medals to Kerry and the rest of the sailors involved in the mission. The Navy's account of Kerry's actions is presented in the original medal citation signed by Zumwalt. The engagement was documented in an after-action report, a press release written on March 1, 1969, and a historical summary dated March 17, 1969.[28]
On March 13, 1969, on the Song Bái Háp (Bay Hap river), five Swift boats were returning to their base after performing an Operation Sealords mission to transport South Vietnamese troops from the garrison at Cái Nước and MIKE Force advisors for a raid on a Vietcong camp located on the Rach Dong Cung canal. Earlier in the day, Kerry received a slight shrapnel wound in the buttocks from blowing up a rice bunker. Debarking some but not all of the passengers at a small village, the boats approached a fishing weir; one group of boats went around to the left of the weir, hugging the shore, and a group with Kerry's PCF-94 boat went around to the right, along the shoreline. A mine was detonated directly beneath the lead boat, PCF-3, as it crossed the weir to the left, lifting PCF-3 "about 2-3 ft out of water".[29]
James Rassmann, a Green Beret advisor who was aboard PCF-94, was knocked overboard when, according to witnesses and the documentation of the event, a mine or rocket exploded close to the boat. According to the documentation for the event, Kerry's arm was injured when he was thrown against a bulkhead during the explosion. PCF 94 returned to the scene and Kerry rescued Rassmann from the water. Kerry received the Bronze Star for his actions during this incident; he also received his third Purple Heart."
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Post by: Jihadin
I see where your at Ouze. Snowden should have waited to get a written warning but I am also thinking was the information being to sensitive to go on the written warning. I've seen written warning of those nature but the subject matter was not covered but the infraction of releasing sensitive information is covered by whatever memo, SOP, AR, and/or Regs
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Post by: Ahtman
Relapse wrote: Dust wrote:I think it's tremendously ironic for Kerry to tell someone to "man up"
Is it? From Wiki on Kerry's military service:
Don't forget this wiki page.
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Post by: Ouze
Relapse defending Kerry? My mind is blown. You think you know someone, man.
I agree, of course - Kerry's war record is often criticized by chickenhawks and armchair commanders. The man signed to serve his country and returned a war hero, the fact he decided after tasted war that he liked the taste of peace better doesn't make him less macho to me.
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Post by: Jihadin
Silver Star for opting out an wounded insurgent and capturing his weapon. 
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Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That
Isn't there grounds to impeach Obama over this whole NSA mess? After all, in front of millions, he swore an oath to defend the constitution, but on his watch, clear violations of the 4th amendment have been allowed to take place.
Andrew Johnson lost his presidency for less than that.
As for traitors, I've said many a time that American history is full of traitors, and most of them have high schools named after them. Maybe Snowden will get the same treatment one day? 
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
You realize that that is all bunk right?
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Post by: Ouze
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Isn't there grounds to impeach Obama over this whole NSA mess? After all, in front of millions, he swore an oath to defend the constitution, but on his watch, clear violations of the 4th amendment have been allowed to take place.
Andrew Johnson lost his presidency for less than that.
1.) You can impeach a president - any president - for whatever you like, as long as 2/3rd of the senate agree with it. "High crimes and misdemeanors" is left intentionally vague.
2.) Clear violations of the 4th amendment - clear to whom, exactly? You? Any evidence that what the NSA is doing was not signed off on by Congress? Quite the contrary - the FISA court has repeatedly signed off on these activities. 7 times, I believe. I hope you also called for an impeachment of Mr. Bush back when he was doing his wiretapping without even bothering to get the rubber stamp from FISA to legalize it.
There is a good article here, discussing the legality of the NSA program. It's up in the air until the SCOTUS weighs in. Even if it's found unconstitutional, the chances of Obama being impeached over it are not as good as the chances of me hooking up with Kate Upton. The Republicans are well aware that impeachment will never work, and even seriously talking about doing the proceedings will tank their approval ratings and cost them the midterms.
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Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That
Ouze wrote: Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Isn't there grounds to impeach Obama over this whole NSA mess? After all, in front of millions, he swore an oath to defend the constitution, but on his watch, clear violations of the 4th amendment have been allowed to take place.
Andrew Johnson lost his presidency for less than that.
1.) You can impeach a president - any president - for whatever you like, as long as 2/3rd of the senate agree with it. "High crimes and misdemeanors" is left intentionally vague.
2.) Clear violations of the 4th amendment - clear to whom, exactly? You? Any evidence that what the NSA is doing was not signed off on by Congress? Quite the contrary - the FISA court has repeatedly signed off on these activities. 7 times, I believe. I hope you also called for an impeachment of Mr. Bush back when he was doing his wiretapping without even bothering to get the rubber stamp from FISA to legalize it.
There is a good article here, discussing the legality of the NSA program. It's up in the air until the SCOTUS weighs in. Even if it's found unconstitutional, the chances of Obama being impeached over it are not as good as the chances of me hooking up with Kate Upton. The Republicans are well aware that impeachment will never work, and even seriously talking about doing the proceedings will tank their approval ratings and cost them the midterms.
I was pretty critical of Bush during his office (thought I never stooped to the level of calling him an idiot or the people that voted for him idiots) and would have happily seen him impeached. So it's not a case of anti-Obama just for the sake of it. Personally, regarding assaults on the freedoms of Americans, I think the rot set in after the Oklahoma bombing when Clinton passed his anti-terrorism and death penalty act, so the trend has been on going for the last twenty years, at least. As for the rest, we'll have to agree to disagree.
And finally: who the hell is Kate Upton? 
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Post by: chaos0xomega
I agree with Kerry (never thought I'd say that). To me the fact that he wasn't willing to face the consequences of his actions, and that he continues to sit on a cache of information as an 'insurance policy', makes him an attention seeking coward more than any sort of freedom fighter or whistleblower. The fact that he fled to nations with an even worse track record of human rights abuses for asylum makes him a hypocrite. If you're going to blow a whistle, if you're going to fight for something, and stand up against authority for something you believe in, you can't half-ass it, you have to commit to it, you have to be prepared for any and all possible outcomes, you have to take responsibility for your actions and be prepared to face the consequences. Of course, I suppose I can't really blame him, since that is a concept seemingly lost upon the majority of our generation, but that is the truth of the matter nonetheless. His refusal to face the repercussions of his actions simply serves to cheapen his cause and lessen the impact of what he did. I am sure if he stood trial, just or not, his resulting testimony would have just as much an impact, if not moreso, than the information he released.
Daniel Ellsberg, responsible for the release of the Pentagon Papers during the Vietnam War, turned himself in to the authorities to face the consequences of his actions (as he himself stated). Hell, Manning (who I have very little respect for due to the complete disregard shown for the lives of others who may have been jeopardized as a result of her leaks, let alone the seeming lack of any real appreciation for why she was releasing classified information, other than 'we're doing bad things and we should feel bad') even stood trial and faced the consequences. What makes Snowden so special that he shouldn't?
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Difference is, Manning is a fething traitor, and worthless scum in my eyes... I'm sorry, you simply just do NOT do what he/she/it did to the people who wear the same uniform as you do.
I don't know what kind of "oaths" or whatever Snowden had to say as part of being a civilian contractor, but Manning had a whole lot more riding on him than Snowden.
Agreed. Anyone who thinks Manning was a hero needs to get their head checked. Snowden did the CORRECT thing, in that he was selective about what was released and careful to make sure to minimize putting people in danger. On top of that, Snowden understood WHY he was doing what he did, in that it was unconstitutional, morally wrong, and dangerously close to something out of 1984 for it to continue, and on top of that, he tried going through more proper channels before taking matters into his own hands.
You don't see ANY of that from Manning, and the whole thing only reeks of misguided attention seeking.
I initially thought that Snowden was a traitor, but now that the full scope of the NSA's activities have come to light, I'm no longer so sure about that.
I would argue that we still don't know the full scope of its activities, only the full scope related to one specific set of activities. Also keep in mind that much of what Snowden leaked evidently remains unpublished.
I think his point is that the military held Manning in solitary confinement without filing charges for over a year. During which he didn't have a bed, wasn't allowed to speak or exercise, and had jailors wake him every four hours (as a "precaution against suicide"). The UN Special Rapporteur called the conditions "cruel, inhuman and degrading."
There was a time when we charged someone with a crime and carried out the sentence, following the law. Instead, our system now locks alleged criminals away without access to trial or attorney. The military picked some people up in Afghanistan who've been sitting in prison for eight years without any charges. Once upon a time, if you couldn't convict someone in a court of law, then they weren't criminals.
How could anyone of sound mind (like Snowden) turn themselves into that sort of corrupt system? We used to give our citizens due process.
To be fair (not that I'm defending Mannings treatment), the laws/act under which Manning was charged (and it was, in fact, correct to charge him on it) basically allow for that treatment as it would be a national security risk to follow the process that you outlined. Personally I find the treatment of the Club Gitmo detainees to be more disturbing and less morally/legally justifiable.
I also think he lost his "warrior of the people for truth and justice" credibility when he willingly became Putin's sockpuppet.
This.
I seem to recall Snowden challenging Putin on Russian National TV over their own domestic spying programs. NOt exactly sock puppet behaviour.
LOL, 'challenged'? Even by his own admission he gave Putin a softball question which Putin then proceeded to hit into a home run, making himself look great and Obama a tyrant, all the while lying through his teeth.
I don't believe that Snowden actually leaked any of this, rather certain 'independent news sources' (and in this case I'm not using the term positively) simply claimed they were included as part of the leak, with absolutely nothing to substantiate it.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Isn't there grounds to impeach Obama over this whole NSA mess? After all, in front of millions, he swore an oath to defend the constitution, but on his watch, clear violations of the 4th amendment have been allowed to take place.
Andrew Johnson lost his presidency for less than that.
As for traitors, I've said many a time that American history is full of traitors, and most of them have high schools named after them. Maybe Snowden will get the same treatment one day?
Societally we've become more accepting of these violations, I'm pretty sure we've had pretty legitimate grounds to impeach every President since Kennedy, we only attempted going after two of them, and (I would argue) not for the reasons we should have.
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
chaos0xomega wrote: Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Isn't there grounds to impeach Obama over this whole NSA mess? After all, in front of millions, he swore an oath to defend the constitution, but on his watch, clear violations of the 4th amendment have been allowed to take place.
Andrew Johnson lost his presidency for less than that.
As for traitors, I've said many a time that American history is full of traitors, and most of them have high schools named after them. Maybe Snowden will get the same treatment one day?
Societally we've become more accepting of these violations, I'm pretty sure we've had pretty legitimate grounds to impeach every President since Kennedy, we only attempted going after two of them, and (I would argue) not for the reasons we should have.
Two? The only one I can think of is Clinton.
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
I thought he stepped down before it could happen?
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Post by: Ahtman
Yeah, but the smear campaign against his service is important to understand why some people don't like him. It was pretty nasty during the election.
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
Ahtman wrote:
Yeah, but the smear campaign against his service is important to understand why some people don't like him. It was pretty nasty during the election.
Ah, I thought you we saying that was true.
33125
Post by: Seaward
He did, but they were making moves on impeachment proceedings, so it's fair to say he was "gone after."
34390
Post by: whembly
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Ouze wrote: Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Isn't there grounds to impeach Obama over this whole NSA mess? After all, in front of millions, he swore an oath to defend the constitution, but on his watch, clear violations of the 4th amendment have been allowed to take place.
Andrew Johnson lost his presidency for less than that.
1.) You can impeach a president - any president - for whatever you like, as long as 2/3rd of the senate agree with it. "High crimes and misdemeanors" is left intentionally vague.
2.) Clear violations of the 4th amendment - clear to whom, exactly? You? Any evidence that what the NSA is doing was not signed off on by Congress? Quite the contrary - the FISA court has repeatedly signed off on these activities. 7 times, I believe. I hope you also called for an impeachment of Mr. Bush back when he was doing his wiretapping without even bothering to get the rubber stamp from FISA to legalize it.
There is a good article here, discussing the legality of the NSA program. It's up in the air until the SCOTUS weighs in. Even if it's found unconstitutional, the chances of Obama being impeached over it are not as good as the chances of me hooking up with Kate Upton. The Republicans are well aware that impeachment will never work, and even seriously talking about doing the proceedings will tank their approval ratings and cost them the midterms.
I was pretty critical of Bush during his office (thought I never stooped to the level of calling him an idiot or the people that voted for him idiots) and would have happily seen him impeached. So it's not a case of anti-Obama just for the sake of it. Personally, regarding assaults on the freedoms of Americans, I think the rot set in after the Oklahoma bombing when Clinton passed his anti-terrorism and death penalty act, so the trend has been on going for the last twenty years, at least. As for the rest, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Obama won't be impeached... out of all scandals going on, none of them are impeached worthy (unless there's irrefutable evidence he ordered the IRS hassle of conservative groups... VERY improbable).
The only thing that can be remotely the case, is his Drone policies that allows targeting of Americans. Even then... not even close.
And finally: who the hell is Kate Upton?
Seriously?
 Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah... but, it would've happened.
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Post by: Fafnir
chaos0xomega wrote:I agree with Kerry (never thought I'd say that). To me the fact that he wasn't willing to face the consequences of his actions, and that he continues to sit on a cache of information as an 'insurance policy', makes him an attention seeking coward more than any sort of freedom fighter or whistleblower. The fact that he fled to nations with an even worse track record of human rights abuses for asylum makes him a hypocrite. If you're going to blow a whistle, if you're going to fight for something, and stand up against authority for something you believe in, you can't half-ass it, you have to commit to it, you have to be prepared for any and all possible outcomes, you have to take responsibility for your actions and be prepared to face the consequences. Of course, I suppose I can't really blame him, since that is a concept seemingly lost upon the majority of our generation, but that is the truth of the matter nonetheless. His refusal to face the repercussions of his actions simply serves to cheapen his cause and lessen the impact of what he did. I am sure if he stood trial, just or not, his resulting testimony would have just as much an impact, if not moreso, than the information he released.
Daniel Ellsberg, responsible for the release of the Pentagon Papers during the Vietnam War, turned himself in to the authorities to face the consequences of his actions (as he himself stated). Hell, Manning (who I have very little respect for due to the complete disregard shown for the lives of others who may have been jeopardized as a result of her leaks, let alone the seeming lack of any real appreciation for why she was releasing classified information, other than 'we're doing bad things and we should feel bad') even stood trial and faced the consequences. What makes Snowden so special that he shouldn't?
So he should have freely given himself over to be tortured and killed in silence, as the government goes and covers everything up without interference? There's no way he'd ever be given a fair trial (and he probably wouldn't even make it to a trial, anyway).
As for why he's in Russia, it's not his choice. There aren't a whole lot of pleasant places in the world that won't extradite to the US. And getting to them involves taking some fairly substandard routes.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
It's unlikely he would have been tortured and/or killed, he's much too high profile, and if you really believe that to be the case then you drank a bit too much of the kool aid. For all the stupid, if not outright wrong, gak that the government does, even that would be going too far.
As for fair trial... no comment. He would have made it to trial... eventually... though he would most certainly have been detained until that point.
And he most certainly *did* have a choice, he chose to remain free rather than to face the judicial system. To his credit however (based on his recent interview), it seems that he at least understands that he should and will face a prison sentence, and is trying to negotiate a deal for a reasonable term rather than the likely 10-20 mandatory he would have to face otherwise IIRC.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
chaos0xomega wrote:It's unlikely he would have been tortured and/or killed, he's much too high profile, and if you really believe that to be the case then you drank a bit too much of the kool aid. For all the stupid, if not outright wrong, gak that the government does, even that would be going too far.
A wee bit ironic
A bit of Bradley Manning, yes?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un
Juan Mendez has completed a 14-month investigation into the treatment of Manning since the soldier's arrest at a US military base in May 2010. He concludes that the US military was at least culpable of cruel and inhumane treatment in keeping Manning locked up alone for 23 hours a day over an 11-month period in conditions that he also found might have constituted torture.
"The special rapporteur concludes that imposing seriously punitive conditions of detention on someone who has not been found guilty of any crime is a violation of his right to physical and psychological integrity as well as of his presumption of innocence," Mendez writes.
Edit: Make of this what you will
A Typical Day for PFC Bradley Manning
PFC Manning is currently being held in maximum custody. Since arriving at the Quantico Confinement Facility in July of 2010, he has been held under Prevention of Injury (POI) watch.
His cell is approximately six feet wide and twelve feet in length.
The cell has a bed, a drinking fountain, and a toilet.
The guards at the confinement facility are professional. At no time have they tried to bully, harass, or embarrass PFC Manning. Given the nature of their job, however, they do not engage in conversation with PFC Manning.
At 5:00 a.m. he is woken up (on weekends, he is allowed to sleep until 7:00 a.m.). Under the rules for the confinement facility, he is not allowed to sleep at anytime between 5:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m. If he attempts to sleep during those hours, he will be made to sit up or stand by the guards.
He is allowed to watch television during the day. The television stations are limited to the basic local stations. His access to the television ranges from 1 to 3 hours on weekdays to 3 to 6 hours on weekends.
He cannot see other inmates from his cell. He can occasionally hear other inmates talk. Due to being a pretrial confinement facility, inmates rarely stay at the facility for any length of time. Currently, there are no other inmates near his cell.
From 7:00 p.m. to 9:20 p.m., he is given correspondence time. He is given access to a pen and paper. He is allowed to write letters to family, friends, and his attorneys.
Each night, during his correspondence time, he is allowed to take a 15 to 20 minute shower.
On weekends and holidays, he is allowed to have approved visitors see him from 12:00 to 3:00 p.m.
He is allowed to receive letters from those on his approved list and from his legal counsel. If he receives a letter from someone not on his approved list, he must sign a rejection form. The letter is then either returned to the sender or destroyed.
He is allowed to have any combination of up to 15 books or magazines. He must request the book or magazine by name. Once the book or magazine has been reviewed by the literary board at the confinement facility, and approved, he is allowed to have someone on his approved list send it to him. The person sending the book or magazine to him must do so through a publisher or an approved distributor such as Amazon. They are not allowed to mail the book or magazine directly to PFC Manning.
Due to being held on Prevention of Injury (POI) watch:
PFC Manning is held in his cell for approximately 23 hours a day.
The guards are required to check on PFC Manning every five minutes by asking him if he is okay. PFC Manning is required to respond in some affirmative manner. At night, if the guards cannot see PFC Manning clearly, because he has a blanket over his head or is curled up towards the wall, they will wake him in order to ensure he is okay.
He receives each of his meals in his cell.
He is not allowed to have a pillow or sheets. However, he is given access to two blankets and has recently been given a new mattress that has a built-in pillow.
He is not allowed to have any personal items in his cell.
He is only allowed to have one book or one magazine at any given time to read in his cell. The book or magazine is taken away from him at the end of the day before he goes to sleep.
He is prevented from exercising in his cell. If he attempts to do push-ups, sit-ups, or any other form of exercise he will be forced to stop.
He does receive one hour of “exercise” outside of his cell daily. He is taken to an empty room and only allowed to walk. PFC Manning normally just walks figure eights in the room for the entire hour. If he indicates that he no long feels like walking, he is immediately returned to his cell.
When PFC Manning goes to sleep, he is required to strip down to his boxer shorts and surrender his clothing to the guards. His clothing is returned to him the next morning.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
And again, I'll point out that PFC manning is exactly that.... a PRIVATE FIRST CLASS. This means that he is in the Army, part of the DoD, which has it's own "special" brand of justice called the Uniform Code of Military Justice, or UCMJ for short.
Claiming that he has the same exact special daisy privileges as any other schmuck who gets put in prison is fething mental. He signed the dotted line, he swore the oath, he KNEW what he was getting into.
Stop conflating the civilian justice system, and the "rights" contained therein with the UCMJ. There are reasons we actually do give up certain rights during the time we wear the uniform.
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Post by: Kain
 Ketara wrote:Let's see......spend the next ten years in solitary confinement in America, or live in isolation in communist Russia....
Great choices.
Putin's Russia is about as communist as Burger King.
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Post by: Bromsy
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:It's unlikely he would have been tortured and/or killed, he's much too high profile, and if you really believe that to be the case then you drank a bit too much of the kool aid. For all the stupid, if not outright wrong, gak that the government does, even that would be going too far.
A wee bit ironic
A bit of Bradley Manning, yes?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un
Juan Mendez has completed a 14-month investigation into the treatment of Manning since the soldier's arrest at a US military base in May 2010. He concludes that the US military was at least culpable of cruel and inhumane treatment in keeping Manning locked up alone for 23 hours a day over an 11-month period in conditions that he also found might have constituted torture.
"The special rapporteur concludes that imposing seriously punitive conditions of detention on someone who has not been found guilty of any crime is a violation of his right to physical and psychological integrity as well as of his presumption of innocence," Mendez writes.
Edit: Make of this what you will
A Typical Day for PFC Bradley Manning
PFC Manning is currently being held in maximum custody. Since arriving at the Quantico Confinement Facility in July of 2010, he has been held under Prevention of Injury (POI) watch.
His cell is approximately six feet wide and twelve feet in length.
The cell has a bed, a drinking fountain, and a toilet.
The guards at the confinement facility are professional. At no time have they tried to bully, harass, or embarrass PFC Manning. Given the nature of their job, however, they do not engage in conversation with PFC Manning.
At 5:00 a.m. he is woken up (on weekends, he is allowed to sleep until 7:00 a.m.). Under the rules for the confinement facility, he is not allowed to sleep at anytime between 5:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m. If he attempts to sleep during those hours, he will be made to sit up or stand by the guards.
He is allowed to watch television during the day. The television stations are limited to the basic local stations. His access to the television ranges from 1 to 3 hours on weekdays to 3 to 6 hours on weekends.
He cannot see other inmates from his cell. He can occasionally hear other inmates talk. Due to being a pretrial confinement facility, inmates rarely stay at the facility for any length of time. Currently, there are no other inmates near his cell.
From 7:00 p.m. to 9:20 p.m., he is given correspondence time. He is given access to a pen and paper. He is allowed to write letters to family, friends, and his attorneys.
Each night, during his correspondence time, he is allowed to take a 15 to 20 minute shower.
On weekends and holidays, he is allowed to have approved visitors see him from 12:00 to 3:00 p.m.
He is allowed to receive letters from those on his approved list and from his legal counsel. If he receives a letter from someone not on his approved list, he must sign a rejection form. The letter is then either returned to the sender or destroyed.
He is allowed to have any combination of up to 15 books or magazines. He must request the book or magazine by name. Once the book or magazine has been reviewed by the literary board at the confinement facility, and approved, he is allowed to have someone on his approved list send it to him. The person sending the book or magazine to him must do so through a publisher or an approved distributor such as Amazon. They are not allowed to mail the book or magazine directly to PFC Manning.
Due to being held on Prevention of Injury (POI) watch:
PFC Manning is held in his cell for approximately 23 hours a day.
The guards are required to check on PFC Manning every five minutes by asking him if he is okay. PFC Manning is required to respond in some affirmative manner. At night, if the guards cannot see PFC Manning clearly, because he has a blanket over his head or is curled up towards the wall, they will wake him in order to ensure he is okay.
He receives each of his meals in his cell.
He is not allowed to have a pillow or sheets. However, he is given access to two blankets and has recently been given a new mattress that has a built-in pillow.
He is not allowed to have any personal items in his cell.
He is only allowed to have one book or one magazine at any given time to read in his cell. The book or magazine is taken away from him at the end of the day before he goes to sleep.
He is prevented from exercising in his cell. If he attempts to do push-ups, sit-ups, or any other form of exercise he will be forced to stop.
He does receive one hour of “exercise” outside of his cell daily. He is taken to an empty room and only allowed to walk. PFC Manning normally just walks figure eights in the room for the entire hour. If he indicates that he no long feels like walking, he is immediately returned to his cell.
When PFC Manning goes to sleep, he is required to strip down to his boxer shorts and surrender his clothing to the guards. His clothing is returned to him the next morning.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/04/bradley-manning-jail-conditions-improve
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Post by: Jihadin
He has been switched from maximum security to medium custody, which affords him many more rights and liberties, and he is no longer being held under a prevention of injury watch that imposed harsh conditions.
Pretrial confinement to post trial
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Post by: Ketara
 Kain wrote: Ketara wrote:Let's see......spend the next ten years in solitary confinement in America, or live in isolation in communist Russia....
Great choices.
Putin's Russia is about as communist as Burger King.
I was being somewhat tongue in cheek. But points for trying?
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Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That
Ensis Ferrae wrote:And again, I'll point out that PFC manning is exactly that.... a PRIVATE FIRST CLASS. This means that he is in the Army, part of the DoD, which has it's own "special" brand of justice called the Uniform Code of Military Justice, or UCMJ for short.
Claiming that he has the same exact special daisy privileges as any other schmuck who gets put in prison is fething mental. He signed the dotted line, he swore the oath, he KNEW what he was getting into.
Stop conflating the civilian justice system, and the "rights" contained therein with the UCMJ. There are reasons we actually do give up certain rights during the time we wear the uniform.
Yeah, I agree to an extent, but isn't part of the oath swearing to protect the constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic. You could argue that he thought he was doing the right thing to protect the constitution.
Not having a go at you, personally, but as I've said before, oaths are meaningless without moral context. Staffenburg broke his oath when he tried to blow up Hitler. George Washington broke his oath of allegiance to the British crown when he rebelled. So, it's not always black and white.
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Post by: djones520
Just because he "thought" he was doing the right thing, does not mean you are doing the right thing.
Generally what an E-3 thinks is right, is anything but. That's just my 12 years of experience speaking.
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Post by: Palindrome
 djones520 wrote:
Generally what an E-3 thinks is right, is anything but. That's just my 12 years of experience speaking.
I bet your juniors just love you.
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Post by: Jihadin
I back his twelve with my 23 years. Lower Enlisted still have that inner civilian glow to them till about their first major Article 15, deployment, and/or couple years under their belt. Or a combination two of three.
My learning experience was two Article 15's
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Post by: Palindrome
Well my 10 years says different, perhaps we just have a lot better juniors than you do. They are adults, treat them like adults and they will behave like adults.
I have noticed that Americans like to use the autocratic leadership style, its not the best for developing subordinates.
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Post by: Jihadin
We comparing Brit to US lower enlisted? Its two different animals same as our leadership style. Your style is not mine and not DJ but DJ style is not mine nor yours nor my style either of yours. We develope our leadership style from former NCO's appointed over us. First though. I am not a "Friend", a "buddy", a "Sarge", go by first names, nor share beers with lower enlisted. I am a NCO and conducted myself as such. Either meet or exceed my standards, be on time, at the right place and in the right uniform. Duty. Discipline. Respect. Knowledge. This is the US Military not "insert another country" military (mainly those that allow beer)
Edit
I'm not bashing Palin just we are two different military with two different atmosphere of conduct
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Post by: Ahtman
djones520 wrote:Generally what an E-3 thinks is right, is anything but. That's just my 12 years of experience speaking.
You were an E-3 for twelve years?!
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Post by: motyak
Jihadin wrote:
I'm not bashing Palin just we are two different military with two different atmosphere of conduct
Certainly came across as bashing, as if any other country wasn't as disciplined as the US military. Which I'm sure isn't what you meant, right?
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Post by: Palindrome
As do I. Treating private soldiers as children however serves no one, afterall who will be the next generation of NCOs?
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Post by: Jihadin
Your not assuming I treating my troops as children  Your probably like me. Rules are simple. Don't fukk up as you are now at a higher level of "Adultness". We guide, we mentor, we advise, we shape, we form, and we mold our troops like the way we were brought up. We are not like our counterparts in the civilian world. We are not the same as we were before we joined. We are not the same as our former friends as we progress in age. I expect more out of my Privates, Private First Class, and Specialists then I would from their civilian counterparts. When my lower enlistee think State and Federal Law can protect him/her then they are in a world of hurt.
Best case. State Law say legal age of consent is 16. UCMJ says otherwise yet they think State Law protects them from their actions.One stays in the realm of UCMJ then they will go far. They take it upon themselves to go outside UCMJ then they're courting negative actions.
Its not all on the lower enlisted though. Their NCO sets the example by action and behavior. If their NCO let his/her troops call them "Sarge", be their buddy, go out drinking on a daily basis, to name a few then the NCO in question is not effective as a leader. That individual plays favorites and court discord within his/her "backyard" For if his/her favorite screws up and another NCO comes down on him/her then that "favorite" would expect his/her "Sarge" to take care of them.
Manning, as a PFC, as a Intelligence Specialist. Knew his limits. He knew from verbal and written forms what would happen if he broke from establish procedure and operate beyond his scope of duty. He had plenty of avenues to "vent" or inform higher authorities. He threw a "tantrum", did a "revenge" action against his NCO who more likely went in "Fallen Angel" mode, dumped a crapload of intelligence on Assuage thereby putting us at more danger then we needed to be in. He falls under UCMJ but yet people keep forgetting that and think he falls under Federal Laws. People think he has the same rights as someone not in the military but they do not due to UCMJ and SOP.
Snowden has more rights and avenues of legal defense for him. Manning does not due to UCMJ Snowden has a gray area he can play for defense Manning has black and white documentation against him with his signature on them.
Edit
Bergdahl more likely get hit with UCMJ but suspended. That idiot NCO "ghost" his way off FoB to get laid which in turn was a trap. He violated so many orders its not even funny. What's damning for him is four of his soldiers warn him not to do it being it was to good to be true but I am glad I was wrong for I seriously thought they had killed him
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Post by: Palindrome
No, however:
 Palindrome wrote: djones520 wrote:
Generally what an E-3 thinks is right, is anything but. That's just my 12 years of experience speaking.
I bet your juniors just love you.
Djones's attitude doesn't inspire me with confidence.
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Post by: Ouze
E3 is one of the lowest ranks in the military, yes? Is it somehow insulting to think the most junior of armed forces might not yet know a lot about soldiering, sailoring, or mar... marining? marinating? No, that's not right.
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Post by: Fafnir
Jihadin wrote:
Snowden has more rights and avenues of legal defense for him. Manning does not due to UCMJ Snowden has a gray area he can play for defense Manning has black and white documentation against him with his signature on them.
The thing is that, even if he were to go on trial and subpoena the NSA for documents, they've already shown that they're willing to lie about and hide their records. No meaning to a 'trial' if the prosecution isn't going to play fair.
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Post by: Seaward
Neither should E-3s.
And we've come full circle.
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Post by: djones520
Palindrome wrote:
No, however:
Palindrome wrote: djones520 wrote:
Generally what an E-3 thinks is right, is anything but. That's just my 12 years of experience speaking.
I bet your juniors just love you.
Djones's attitude doesn't inspire me with confidence.
You know nothing about my attitude, but if you think "kids" can be trusted to know and do what is right all of the time, then there is only one fool here, and it ain't me. I speak from my own experience as an NCO, and as a one time member of the junior enlisted corps. And if I was wrong on the matter, then the outburst of Mannings, giving away the secret documents would have been an isolated event, instead of the end of a long string of frak ups that the kid had throughout his short career.
I will say that the biggest failure of the whole affair was his chain of command, in allowing Manning to deploy in the first place, and work in a sensitive environment unsupervised, like they did.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Jihadin wrote:I back his twelve with my 23 years. Lower Enlisted still have that inner civilian glow to them till about their first major Article 15, deployment, and/or couple years under their belt. Or a combination two of three.
My learning experience was two Article 15's
As the former "Don" of my local E-4 Mafia, I agree with Jihadin and djones520.... An e-4 with less than 3 years is just as bad as a PFC. And from the sounds of things, he didn't get enough attention from his Drill Sergeants in basic.
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Post by: Palindrome
djones520 wrote:
You know nothing about my attitude, but if you think "kids" can be trusted to know and do what is right all of the time, then there is only one fool here, and it ain't me.
If you think that private soldiers are "generally wrong" then I can infer quite a lot about your attitude. They need guidance and oversight of course but they can generally be trusted to carry out tasks and they generally do well when allowed some initiative.
I bet you shout a lot.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Only at the Lieutenants
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Post by: djones520
Palindrome wrote: djones520 wrote:
You know nothing about my attitude, but if you think "kids" can be trusted to know and do what is right all of the time, then there is only one fool here, and it ain't me.
If you think that private soldiers are "generally wrong" then I can infer quite a lot about your attitude. They need guidance and oversight of course but they can generally be trusted to carry out tasks and they generally do well when allowed some initiative.
I bet you shout a lot.
Not at all. Only time I've ever found myself shouting was in movement under fire training.
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Post by: Ahtman
djones520 wrote: Palindrome wrote: djones520 wrote:
You know nothing about my attitude, but if you think "kids" can be trusted to know and do what is right all of the time, then there is only one fool here, and it ain't me.
If you think that private soldiers are "generally wrong" then I can infer quite a lot about your attitude. They need guidance and oversight of course but they can generally be trusted to carry out tasks and they generally do well when allowed some initiative.
I bet you shout a lot.
Not at all. Only time I've ever found myself shouting was in movement under fire training.
Is that really the best time to be going to the bathroom? And why were you shouting? What did you eat for dinner?!
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
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Post by: Ahtman
I have, so it all sort of makes sense now.
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Post by: Relapse
We used to call them Meals Rejected by Ethiopia.
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Post by: Bromsy
I rather liked the Beef Teriyaki.
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Post by: whembly
So that's why my uncle swears by MREs...
If you had issues going poo... just eat one of them bad boys. 
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Post by: Jihadin
Stop assuming Palin. I shout when I need to shout. Mainly cadence calling Your not calling my leadership into question are you?
Besides as a leader you should know. If one shouting all the time then the perception of of that individual leadership style is authoritarian and/or "fear" leadership style.
Warning If your use to eating MRE's for awhile. Do not eat fast food first thing back
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Jihadin wrote:We comparing Brit to US lower enlisted? Its two different animals same as our leadership style. Your style is not mine and not DJ but DJ style is not mine nor yours nor my style either of yours. We develope our leadership style from former NCO's appointed over us. First though. I am not a "Friend", a "buddy", a "Sarge", go by first names, nor share beers with lower enlisted. I am a NCO and conducted myself as such. Either meet or exceed my standards, be on time, at the right place and in the right uniform. Duty. Discipline. Respect. Knowledge. This is the US Military not "insert another country" military (mainly those that allow beer)
Edit
I'm not bashing Palin just we are two different military with two different atmosphere of conduct
LOL, clearly you haven't spent a lot of time around the USAF ;P
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
chaos0xomega wrote: Jihadin wrote:We comparing Brit to US lower enlisted? Its two different animals same as our leadership style. Your style is not mine and not DJ but DJ style is not mine nor yours nor my style either of yours. We develope our leadership style from former NCO's appointed over us. First though. I am not a "Friend", a "buddy", a "Sarge", go by first names, nor share beers with lower enlisted. I am a NCO and conducted myself as such. Either meet or exceed my standards, be on time, at the right place and in the right uniform. Duty. Discipline. Respect. Knowledge. This is the US Military not "insert another country" military (mainly those that allow beer)
Edit
I'm not bashing Palin just we are two different military with two different atmosphere of conduct
LOL, clearly you haven't spent a lot of time around the USAF ;P
Yep, because we were talking about the military
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Post by: kronk
I bought a bunch of MRE's for my Hurricane Prep Kit when I lived in Galveston County, TX. They taste like crap, yo.
I liked the giant cracker with the peanut butter, though. I could not eat it without lots of water. Isn't that a 1-minute challenge?
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Post by: Jihadin
Key is hot sauce. Eating it real fast and not pausing. Not to breath deeply either
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Ensis Ferrae wrote:chaos0xomega wrote: Jihadin wrote:We comparing Brit to US lower enlisted? Its two different animals same as our leadership style. Your style is not mine and not DJ but DJ style is not mine nor yours nor my style either of yours. We develope our leadership style from former NCO's appointed over us. First though. I am not a "Friend", a "buddy", a "Sarge", go by first names, nor share beers with lower enlisted. I am a NCO and conducted myself as such. Either meet or exceed my standards, be on time, at the right place and in the right uniform. Duty. Discipline. Respect. Knowledge. This is the US Military not "insert another country" military (mainly those that allow beer)
Edit
I'm not bashing Palin just we are two different military with two different atmosphere of conduct
LOL, clearly you haven't spent a lot of time around the USAF ;P
Yep, because we were talking about the military
Well played worthy adversary, well played...
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Post by: trexmeyer
Ouze wrote:E3 is one of the lowest ranks in the military, yes? Is it somehow insulting to think the most junior of armed forces might not yet know a lot about soldiering, sailoring, or mar... marining? marinating? No, that's not right.
I'd say in every branch other than the USMC this would be a fairly accurate assumption as it is entirely possible for someone to achieve E3 prior to even reaching their first unit. For the USMC it is entirely possible for a skilled and disciplined Marine in a Combat Arms MOS to spend his entire 4 year enlistment as an E3 due to extremely high cutting scores for certain MOSs. On the other hand, recruits come from all walks of life and ages. You could have an E3 in his/her mid 20's that will be considerably more worldly and together than one who is 18/19. Also, some service members will switch branches and if one goes from any branch to the Marines they start over at E1. Generally speaking though an E3 will not be very knowledgeable, but I get the impression that some NCOs abuse their positions of authority and think too highly of themselves.
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Post by: Jihadin
but I get the impression that some NCOs abuse their positions of authority and think too highly of themselves.
We have what's called NCOer's. Get negatives in a roll and your done for. Get a General letter of Reprimand your done for. Over time the weak NCO's are weeded out from the mainstream and shuffle into a position that has little impact on soldiers in effect your "Fallen from Grace" and need to go to another unit entirely and do over. My last two NCOer's I had negative bullets and "Needs to Improve" box selected on Physical Fitness portion. I also was recovering from shoulder injuries sustain from Afghanistan.
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Post by: Litcheur
 daedalus wrote:Consider that anywhere pleasant would have just immediately returned him, after probably smacking him around a bit themselves for pointing out the man behind the curtain.
What's so unpleasant about Russia ?
Maybe he's found there the kind of things you can't have in the US anymore : good booze, fit girls...
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Post by: Ouze
Litcheur wrote:Maybe he's found there the kind of things you can't have in the US anymore : good booze, fit girls...
You sure about that?
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Post by: djones520
Hell, if your looking for fit girls, move to Tennessee. I don't give a damn what the statistics say, I've seen a very noticed increase in good looking, fit, women here compared to Illinois.
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Post by: Ouze
Weirdly, I am visiting Tennessee in a few weeks.
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Post by: whembly
djones520 wrote:
Hell, if your looking for fit girls, move to Tennessee. I don't give a damn what the statistics say, I've seen a very noticed increase in good looking, fit, women here compared to Illinois.
You're not the first person who mentioned that to me recently...
Weird...
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Post by: Jihadin
Southern Girls. Ouze. Its Southern Girls.
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Post by: Captain Fantastic
Turn yourself in! It's your patriotic duty!
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Post by: Jihadin
Fantastic. I want you to tell your NCO all the regs, rules, and memorandums you have violated over the years as a Marine. Even if you thought about it
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Post by: Ahtman
Good beer may be hard to find, but good liquor and wine we have plenty of. The myth that all Americans are fat is just that. Yeah there is a problem, but it isn't as stark as it is often made out.
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Post by: Grey Templar
I'd postulate that good beer isn't even all that hard to find. There are plenty of micro-breweries just about everywhere.
Its not just Coors, Bud, and Corona around here(blech)
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Post by: Jihadin
Forgot Pabst, "Beast", and Keystone
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
And Natural Ice, and Mad Dog... ohh, and Colt .45
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Post by: Litcheur
Not so sure, now. However...
If you really want to wander off-topic, I'm still pretty sure I'm more interested in learning about the best places to find booze and girls than stories about how to deal with grunts.
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Post by: Relapse
You old liquor picker, you!
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