686
Post by: aka_mythos
Ghost in the Darkness wrote:AAAHHHH I hate you guys thats just awesome. I wish Obama would do that for me. I would love to buy me a bunch of Shadowswords and all the other new IG stuff.
Ummm... he is... if you file taxes you get an extra $400. Just remember $400 today equals $600 in taxes in 4 years not adjusting for systemic government inefficiency.
I heard a rumor that GW Australia doesn't even write his address... when he orders they only write "HBMC" and the postal service knows where to take the pallet of products.
Raxmei wrote:Maybe the Colossus siege gun will steal the Griffon's siege shell special rule, then. That would almost make sense.
Somehow I feel that I should have noticed sooner that the siege shell was on the same page as a gun that previously had a special rule allowing it to use siege shells and two other gun that have the word "siege" in their names.
She sells siege shells by the sea shore.
I heard a rumor recently from someone who used to work at GW... his source says the Colossus is an upgraded Griffon variant. Which is why both can be lumped into the same box as the basilisk and medusa. Which is why little has been said about. And is why its so similar. There is also the possibility that the Griffon is squadron-able or attachable while the Colossus is definitely not.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
And my house is easy to find, as my car's parked out front with 'HBMC' number plates. No I'm not making that up.
Did see a car today with HSBC number plates. That made me laugh.
BYE
320
Post by: Platuan4th
H.B.M.C. wrote:Did see a car today with HSBC number plates. That made me laugh.
BYE
As in the bank?
4362
Post by: Ozymandias
H.B.M.C. wrote:And my house is easy to find, as my car's parked out front with 'HBMC' number plates. No I'm not making that up.
Did see a car today with HSBC number plates. That made me laugh.
BYE
Now all you need is an Imperial eagle tat for the nerd trifecta.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
I want to get my car sprayed Ultramarine blue and a big upsidedown Omega painted on top of it.
If I got the eagle everyone would think I'm a Nazi.
BYE
123
Post by: Alpharius
You mean they don't already? 
(OK, maybe just 'everyone online'!)
On a serious note...
I can't find my Daemonhunters/Witch Hunters books.
How do they handle allies?
Will I be able to just plug them into the new Guard codex, sort of how Space Wolf players caught a bone with the wording in their codex and meshing with the new Marine codex?
How about allies?
Will I just be able to plop an Inquisitor Lord down in a new Guard codex army?
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
I suspect so. Assuming no units have gone away (and Conscripts are in the summary, so my guess is 'no, nothing has gone away') then you just take whatever's there.
Inquisitors can be used in Imperial Guard armies. I'm pretty sure armies from the new Guard Codex will count as 'Imperial Guard armies'.
Also look at it a different way - did the new Marine 'Dex stop people from taking Inquisitors in their Marine armies (and vice versa)?
BYE
123
Post by: Alpharius
I'm back to being happy again.
And really, with the money I'm going to end up spending, so is GW.
Which is more than enough reason for the Guard Codex to be... flexible in terms of allies and such...
1768
Post by: AfrikProphet
ap3 hellguns! my god I am breakign out my 2nd ed plastic stormtroopers now.
12007
Post by: Feldmarshal Goehring
lol, I still have a unit of plastic 2nd edition Stormtroopers.
Does anyone know whether or not there is any truth to the idea of Leman Russ squadrons? And if so, will the variants of the Russ count for these squadrons?
7632
Post by: Ghost in the Darkness
Ghost in the Darkness wrote:
AAAHHHH I hate you guys thats just awesome. I wish Obama would do that for me. I would love to buy me a bunch of Shadowswords and all the other new IG stuff.
aka_mythos wrote:
Ummm... he is... if you file taxes you get an extra $400. Just remember $400 today equals $600 in taxes in 4 years not adjusting for systemic government inefficiency.
What? Really? Are you pulling my leg? Can I get a link to anywhere where it says that?
10107
Post by: pcon426
I haven't seen this posted but the regional manager at my flgs said that the vendetta is actually the vulture
1478
Post by: warboss
H.B.M.C. wrote:And my house is easy to find, as my car's parked out front with 'HBMC' number plates. No I'm not making that up.
Did see a car today with HSBC number plates. That made me laugh.
BYE
i thought it was determined in another guard rumor thread that you'd be the guy standing out in front yelling at the kids to get off your lawn! 
11729
Post by: Gestalt
The vanquisher needs to be BS4 or AP1(its AP2 on the datasheet) to be better at anti-tank than a demolisher. Even if it can fire a hull lascannon at the same time, a demolisher is better at killing AV14. How a dedicated AT gun is worse than a short howitzer in all AT aspects but range I dont understand. I hope we are missing an upgrade to vanquishers.
A bunker buster is the same but with more range and indirect.
600
Post by: Thanatos73
Ghost in the Darkness wrote:Ghost in the Darkness wrote:
AAAHHHH I hate you guys thats just awesome. I wish Obama would do that for me. I would love to buy me a bunch of Shadowswords and all the other new IG stuff.
aka_mythos wrote:
Ummm... he is... if you file taxes you get an extra $400. Just remember $400 today equals $600 in taxes in 4 years not adjusting for systemic government inefficiency.
What? Really? Are you pulling my leg? Can I get a link to anywhere where it says that?
Not to derail the thread, but I second the "can I get a link" to this! This is the first I've heard of extra money for filing taxes, and that surprise $400 would probably go toward a lot of plastic and or resin toys. 
3844
Post by: Dave47
Thanatos73 wrote:Not to derail the thread, but I second the "can I get a link" to this! This is the first I've heard of extra money for filing taxes, and that surprise $400 would probably go toward a lot of plastic and or resin toys.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/13/stimulus/
$400 for most individuals (and $800 for families). Plus, those of you still in college will likely be eligible for a $2,500 tuition tax credit.
7375
Post by: BrookM
AlexCage wrote:Hrm. It appears the Cadian Battleforce has been removed from both the UK and US online stores. The Catachan Battleforce was removed from the UK online store.
Just thought I'd mention it for those looking to stock up before hand. Like me. Time to go loot some FLGS!
Both are still on the UK and US sites.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1300106&rootCatGameStyle=
9777
Post by: A-P
H.B.M.C. wrote:A-P wrote:The men and women of the Guard are the...
Wo...men? In the Guard? I've got a Comissar who's a girl... but yeah, don't know where you're finding these mythical 'Wo-mens'.
BYE
Heh. The "mythical wo-mens" are the grenadelauncher equipped troopers attached to my infantry Command Squads. From old metal Catachan Special Weapons blisters. Privates Hanna and Mirja have bravely followed their Captains against vile traitors, foul Xenos and the abominations of the Warp.
7375
Post by: BrookM
There's always that female Ghost and those two girlies from the Last Chancers if in need of some bras in the ranks.
4428
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus
H.B.M.C. wrote:People in Australia are. AUD$900 from the Government to just about everyone. It's absurd, but it's buying me two Shadowswords, a few Command Squad boxes, all the new metals and my wing of Valks.
BYE
Good god, we're only getting € 200!!! Thankfully, with the pound at an all-time low, ordering from the UK nearly halves the price.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Where do you think I'm ordering from? I can get AUD$1100 worth of stuff for AUD$600 from the UK at the moment, and no shipping fees!
BYE
7375
Post by: BrookM
Dang it, you're supposed to spend that money in your own country and help boost the economy!
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Or I could just buy lots of Valks.
One option is a noble course of action helping to keep business afloat in uncertain times... and the other is just spending money in my own country.
BYE
5119
Post by: Teh_K42
There has actually been much controversey about the Australian handouts being wasted on gambling, with the casino takings rising sharply the month of the government handouts.
Sorry to go off topic...
I wonder with Creed and Kell apparently being seperate choices whether it will be too expensive to bring them both, or if there is any reason beyond fluff incentive to have them paired together.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
BrookM wrote:There's always that female Ghost and those two girlies from the Last Chancers if in need of some bras in the ranks.
Not to mention the 7 or 8 Rogue Trader era ones... I knew a guy who had an all female IG army 3 platoons of those old figures... so many duplicates (clone army?).
BrookM wrote:Dang it, you're supposed to spend that money in your own country and help boost the economy!
Hay, he's helping the global economy...
Teh_K42 wrote:There has actually been much controversy about the Australian handouts being wasted on gambling, with the casino takings rising sharply the month of the government handouts.
Funny and sad... but its become those people money. The guy who does manage to take his hand out and make it more (more power to him) will be that much better off. We can't really judge as that gambling is as much someones entrainment as this hobby; someone could just as easily take offense to us buy "toy soldiers."
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Taking both will probably allow you take something really important as Troops/make something really important scoring.
BYE
7375
Post by: BrookM
Odd that really, according to the background those two are BFF!
686
Post by: aka_mythos
The way you say that makes them sound like an ambiguous --- duo, if you know what I mean... kinda Alexander and Hephaestion relationship.
Here on out... the term "BFF" should be band from 40k.
7375
Post by: BrookM
Wait, are you telling me that space marines, a male-exclusive warrior society, don't follow the BFF code?
686
Post by: aka_mythos
No... those groin plate are also chastity belts. Power armored chastity belts.
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
aka_mythos wrote:
Here on out... the term "BFF" should be band from 40k.
All the Spase Marinez are banded together as BFF.
7375
Post by: BrookM
That's just.. great. Whenever I read the novels there is always a subtle line of that man-only stuff floating around with the authors rather disturbing descriptions of post-battle cleansing and oiling. I'll have to read it out loud to the girl once, see how she reacts to such vivid descriptions.
But seriously, according to the background of Creed and Kell they are friends for life. Not the man train type, but just that: friends for life. Why else would Kell be such a loyal bodyguard?
686
Post by: aka_mythos
Kid_Kyoto wrote:aka_mythos wrote:
Here on out... the term "BFF" should be band from 40k.
All the Spase Marinez are banded together as BFF.
Whole new meaning to "Space Marines HURRR!!"
BrookM wrote:That's just.. great. Whenever I read the novels there is always a subtle line of that man-only stuff floating around with the authors rather disturbing descriptions of post-battle cleansing and oiling. I'll have to read it out loud to the girl once, see how she reacts to such vivid descriptions.
But seriously, according to the background of Creed and Kell they are friends for life. Not the man train type, but just that: friends for life. Why else would Kell be such a loyal bodyguard?
I understand and I agree they really shouldn't be separated. As special characters that was always one of their most characterful aspects. All we really have is the reference page and we don't really know how these two will fit in.
4428
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus
H.B.M.C. wrote:Where do you think I'm ordering from? I can get AUD$1100 worth of stuff for AUD$600 from the UK at the moment, and no shipping fees!
BYE
I would have thought they'd charge you shipping fees. 'stralia's a tad further away than The Continent after all. Anyways, I'm glad for you that they don't - happy shopping spree!
168
Post by: foil7102
Gestalt wrote:The vanquisher needs to be BS4 or AP1(its AP2 on the datasheet) to be better at anti-tank than a demolisher. Even if it can fire a hull lascannon at the same time, a demolisher is better at killing AV14. How a dedicated AT gun is worse than a short howitzer in all AT aspects but range I dont understand. I hope we are missing an upgrade to vanquishers.
A bunker buster is the same but with more range and indirect.
The vanquisher gets 2d6 +8 for armor pen, the demolisher just gets 10 + (roll 2 d6 and take the one highest result) Think of it as a long range melta that always gets 2d6 pen.
4501
Post by: AlexCage
I should have been more specific. They're still in the online stores, but you cannot BUY them from the online stores. I suppose it's entirely possible they're just 'out of stock'.
11729
Post by: Gestalt
foil7102 wrote:The vanquisher gets 2d6 +8 for armor pen, the demolisher just gets 10 + (roll 2 d6 and take the one highest result) Think of it as a long range melta that always gets 2d6 pen.
But the Demolisher is AP 1, which more than makes up for slightly less armor pen. A Vanquisher hit has a 25% chance to destroy AV14, a Demolisher Cannon hit has a 31% chance.
7375
Post by: BrookM
AlexCage wrote:
I should have been more specific. They're still in the online stores, but you cannot BUY them from the online stores. I suppose it's entirely possible they're just 'out of stock'.
Now that you mention it, aye they are no longer available. Possibly a prelude to May.
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
Gestalt wrote:
But the Demolisher is AP 1, which more than makes up for slightly less armor pen. A Vanquisher hit has a 25% chance to destroy AV14, a Demolisher Cannon hit has a 31% chance.
The demolisher is not, and never has been, and doesn't appear that it will be, AP1. It's AP2.
168
Post by: foil7102
It is listed as ap1 on the new summary sheet......
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
BrookM wrote:That's just.. great. Whenever I read the novels there is always a subtle line of that man-only stuff floating around with the authors rather disturbing descriptions of post-battle cleansing and oiling. I'll have to read it out loud to the girl once, see how she reacts to such vivid descriptions.
But seriously, according to the background of Creed and Kell they are friends for life. Not the man train type, but just that: friends for life. Why else would Kell be such a loyal bodyguard?
The 40k setting just seems to be a much more culturally innocent setting. There are few of the social taboos in modern earth cultures. Think early greek but in super space.
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
foil7102 wrote:It is listed as ap1 on the new summary sheet......
Is it? looking at the summary both in french and the english translation it's AP2.
168
Post by: foil7102
Eh I am looking at the english reference sheet by Kelvan. Probably a mistype.
4351
Post by: ubermosher
It is a mistype. The original French and translation by SitD lists it as AP 2.
7889
Post by: marxlives
Written by H.B.M.C. :
"I bloody hope not. Having come from 2nd Ed, where it was mostly pot luck if you got a model to represent a Codex entry, and then into 3rd and 4th, where they went out of their way to ensure everything had a model, I do not want to go back to where there were units that simple do not get models.
That said, it has already started. There's no Buggy/Wartrakk, there are no Flash Gitz, there's no Deff Kopta outside of the Battle for Black Lagoon box, and a few of the special characters haven't got models (and I'd be suprised if we ever saw them).
Ok, so we get a recut Hellhound that has a Hellhound and Stupid Named Tank #1 and Stupid Named Tank #2, so you can do Flamy, Poison or Melta. We get a Russ that has Exterminator and Vanquisher bits and a Demolisher that has Punisher, Eradicator and Executioner bits. I doubt both of those as that's a lot of tanks. What's next? Ok, a Basilisk/Medusa Kit and a Griffon/Colossus kit. Then what? We've still got a Hydra, Manticore and fuggin' Deathstrike do go, and we don't even yet have Penal Legionarres or actual Veteran models.
So Guard are going to have, at minimum, 8 tank-sized kits on the shelf? Hellhound & Friends, the Chimera, Russ & Friends, Demolisher & Friends, Basilisk/Medusa, Griffon/Colossus, Hydra & Friends, Valkyrie/Vendetta?
No. It's too much. We are just not going to see models for half of these things. If I'm wrong, great, but unless my jokes about Guard stretching out releases all the way to Wave 27 in Q3 2028 are true, we're not going to be seeing these things.
[EDIT]: It was often joked that when Jervis came on board to blandify 40K, he was bringing as much 2nd Edition stuff back as possible. Well, like with the recent releases, this is obviously true (Sanctioned Psykers, Chenkov, Nork, etc.), but it appears that with 2nd Ed flavour (modified by 5th Ed blandness), we're also getting the 2nd Ed uncertainly of miniature releases. No clue what's coming out, no clue if something will ever even come out, and months/years at a time when something never gets made.
I said when GW started the 'Wave' thing that I was in support of it, because gradual support is better than dumping everything on new players (and stores for that matter). But really, let me ask y'all this:
Would you rather get every new model in a Codex within a month of the book's release, or get a few things every 6-18 months, and never know if something is going to even get a miniature release, let alone when that release might be?
BYE "
Response:
I have to agree with H.B.M.C.'s point here. I love warhammer 40k fluff and I love playing in the warhammer 40k universe, but one thing that frustrates me about Games Workshop is that they release armies without support. Either the units mentioned in the Codex that are not produced, or the Codices are so out of date that they are not longer viable. If Games Workshop wants to release units that require conversion, great leave that for a White Dwarf issue If an issue is out of print, and it has army lists people want to use, then sell the pdf off the website for godsakes. There are so many army lists, like Dark Eldar, and Relictors, and Tanith that people want to play but need refurbishing. Updating these armies would do two things; it would give people who like converting an outlet, and provide White Dwarf with enough content to justify it's costs, rather than dimishing White Dwarf to a glorified newspaper ad.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
marxlives wrote:I have to agree with H.B.M.C.'s point here. I love warhammer 40k fluff and I love playing in the warhammer 40k universe, but one thing that frustrates me about Games Workshop is that they release armies without support. Either the units mentioned in the Codex that are not produced, or the Codices are so out of date that they are not longer viable. If Games Workshop wants to release units that require conversion, great leave that for a White Dwarf issue If an issue is out of print, and it has army lists people want to use, then sell the pdf off the website for godsakes. There are so many army lists, like Dark Eldar, and Relictors, and Tanith that people want to play but need refurbishing. Updating these armies would do two things; it would give people who like converting an outlet, and provide White Dwarf with enough content to justify it's costs, rather than dimishing White Dwarf to a glorified newspaper ad.
GW is a decent sized company, but they aren't big enough to handle your demands as immediately as you'd like. They don't have the resources to do everything at once either. And they can't support indefinitely every little idea they have, it'd be nice but they can't. I think the biggest thing they could do would just simply be more public and open about what they're working on.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Lord Solar Plexus wrote:I would have thought they'd charge you shipping fees. 'stralia's a tad further away than The Continent after all. Anyways, I'm glad for you that they don't - happy shopping spree!
Maelstrome Games UK doesn't charge shipping to anywhere.
BYE
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
You know what? You're all correct. Lets just petition them to take the tanks out of the codex. Clearly that is what we want, and all this isn't just useless pointless complaining in the spirit of looking a gifthorse in the mouth.
I mean, gosh, no ones going to ever convert a leman russ or chimera. Thats never been done before. The clear answer is to bitch incessantly until we stop getting new things. That is our only option as customers.
1406
Post by: Janthkin
ShumaGorath wrote:You know what? You're all correct. Lets just petition them to take the tanks out of the codex. Clearly that is what we want, and all this isn't just useless pointless complaining in the spirit of looking a gifthorse in the mouth.
I mean, gosh, no ones going to ever convert a leman russ or chimera. Thats never been done before. The clear answer is to bitch incessantly until we stop getting new things. That is our only option as customers.
Shuma, you're like 7 pages late. We've been trading pie & brownie recipes for at least the last 35 posts.
117
Post by: Tribune
*Not including auctions.
10% discount is from the United Kingdom trade recommended retail price.
Free postage is worldwide as long as you spend £10 or more, but does not include recorded or special delivery.
See the Frequently Asked Questions pages for more details.
Because the world needs caveats.
But looks like a nice deal if you're overseas. Damn
4977
Post by: jp400
ShumaGorath wrote:You know what? You're all correct. Lets just petition them to take the tanks out of the codex. Clearly that is what we want, and all this isn't just useless pointless complaining in the spirit of looking a gifthorse in the mouth.
I mean, gosh, no ones going to ever convert a leman russ or chimera. Thats never been done before. The clear answer is to bitch incessantly until we stop getting new things. That is our only option as customers.
Shuma Shuma Shuma,
Why open your mouth?
Excuse me while I call the Wahbulance 
Just for you...
http://ramblingrhodes.mu.nu/archives/internet-serious-business-cat-thumb.jpg
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Tribune wrote:*Not including auctions.
10% discount is from the United Kingdom trade recommended retail price.
Free postage is worldwide as long as you spend £10 or more, but does not include recorded or special delivery.
See the Frequently Asked Questions pages for more details.
 Those are some pretty lame caveats Tribune. How many GW products do you buy that are less than £10? Why would you ever mail order less than £10 worth of product? I haven't even seen any auctions at their website (maybe they have an eBay store) but who cares, because everything is 10% off anyway. As far as recorded delivery goes, well, in several years of using them, I've had one thing go missing. It was a pretty significant ' one thing' as well - an Imperial City box, the really big Cities of Death building kit. It got lost as I ordered it during the Christmas period during the middle of a UK Postal Worker's strike. And you know what happened? They replaced it free of charge a month later. So, again, those are a pretty lame list of caveats. They do free shipping worldwide, they have a constant discount, they have sales several times a year, they replace missing items. What more do you want? ShumaGorath wrote:You know what? You're all correct. Lets just petition them to take the tanks out of the codex. Clearly that is what we want, and all this isn't just useless pointless complaining in the spirit of looking a gifthorse in the mouth. I mean, gosh, no ones going to ever convert a leman russ or chimera. Thats never been done before. The clear answer is to bitch incessantly until we stop getting new things. That is our only option as customers.
Janthkin already gave you the ' Too Damned Late' award, so I'll give you the ' World's Biggest Strawman' award and the ' Missed The Point Completely' trophy (now with added pie!). BYE
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
And going back to discussing the PDF  As I mentioned before, the Nova Cannon thingy, it might just be an alternate shell type? There is precedent for this (Whirlwinds now come with both normal and Castellan missiles, which is nice) and, this is a pretty big stretch I'll imagine, I can't see any tank in the PDF which suggests the Nova Cannon would be a single weapon system. Given HBMC's point that the Griffon can do this anyways certainly gives food for thought in this idea. I reckon it might be an alternate Basilisk Shell, or perhaps a plain old Battle Cannon shell. OF course, the other option is that it's for something we haven't seen yet, perhaps a seperate filed artillery ala Thunderfire Cannon for the Ad Mech bloke? What do people reckon?
6500
Post by: MinMax
[quote=HBMCSo Guard are going to have, at minimum, 8 tank-sized kits on the shelf? Hellhound & Friends, the Chimera, Russ & Friends, Demolisher & Friends, Basilisk/Medusa, Griffon/Colossus, Hydra & Friends, Valkyrie/Vendetta?
No. It's too much. We are just not going to see models for half of these things. If I'm wrong, great, but unless my jokes about Guard stretching out releases all the way to Wave 27 in Q3 2028 are true, we're not going to be seeing these things.
BYE
I wouldn't be surprised at all if several of the alternate options became mail-order only, like the Deff Rolla upgrade sprue for the Ork Battlewagon.
"Here's the Valkyrie, for the Imperial Guard! And, if you'd like a Vendetta/Vulture, you can order those special sprues from our website!"
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
Janthkin already gave you the 'Too Damned Late' award, so I'll give you the 'World's Biggest Strawman' award and the 'Missed The Point Completely' trophy (now with added pie!).
The beauty of the internet is that text based conversation is non linear. Besides, it's not like any of you had a point for me to miss.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:There is precedent for this (Whirlwinds now come with both normal and Castellan missiles, which is nice) and, this is a pretty big stretch I'll imagine, I can't see any tank in the PDF which suggests the Nova Cannon would be a single weapon system. Given HBMC's point that the Griffon can do this anyways certainly gives food for thought in this idea.
Look at the PDF again Grotsnik: They've got a Demolisher Cannon on the Demolisher, and the Punisher Gatling Cannon on the Punisher. Stands to reason that the Eradicator Nova Cannon would be on the Leman Russ Eradicator, doesn't it? So no, I very much doubt it's an alternate shot type for another gun. BYE
168
Post by: foil7102
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And going back to discussing the PDF
As I mentioned before, the Nova Cannon thingy, it might just be an alternate shell type?
There is precedent for this (Whirlwinds now come with both normal and Castellan missiles, which is nice) and, this is a pretty big stretch I'll imagine, I can't see any tank in the PDF which suggests the Nova Cannon would be a single weapon system. Given HBMC's point that the Griffon can do this anyways certainly gives food for thought in this idea.
I reckon it might be an alternate Basilisk Shell, or perhaps a plain old Battle Cannon shell.
OF course, the other option is that it's for something we haven't seen yet, perhaps a seperate filed artillery ala Thunderfire Cannon for the Ad Mech bloke?
What do people reckon?
Its a gun, and they are putting it on a Russ hull.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
MinMax wrote:I wouldn't be surprised at all if several of the alternate options became mail-order only, like the Deff Rolla upgrade sprue for the Ork Battlewagon.
Yeah... 'bout that sprue. Is that confirmed? Has anyone seen it? Or is it 'confirmed' in the same way as the contents of the Guard first wave are 'confirmed' (ie. we know it exists, we just don't know when/if we're getting it).
BYE
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
The Orky Upgrade sprue? It's been mentioned in White Dwarf, so thats a pretty confident 'it should be on the way'
NOt 100% yet, I like to see things before I go counting on release, but certainly seems so.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Ah so it is.
Eradicator, and Eradicator Nova Cannon.
Bugger. Now I look like a spazz.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
MinMax wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised at all if several of the alternate options became mail-order only, like the Deff Rolla upgrade sprue for the Ork Battlewagon.
"Here's the Valkyrie, for the Imperial Guard! And, if you'd like a Vendetta/Vulture, you can order those special sprues from our website!"
The much reiterated rumor is:
1) Hellhound and Chimera
2) LR: BT, Demolisher, Exterminator, Vanquisher
3) Valkyrie and Vendetta
The basilisk/medusa and griffon/colossus could easily share a box (4).
The hydra and manticore could be a single large sprue.
The remaining LR variants could be a single small sprue.
Effectively going from the 5 boxes (Chimera, Hellhound, Demolisher, LRBT, Basilisk) we currently have to 4 boxes and two sprues that could be sold direct order or slipped in somewhere to make 1 or 2 more boxes . This doesn't even consider the drop in the number of sentinels boxes (2 or 3 to 1) that shelf space up for grabs.
The Deff-Rolla is pretty confirmed, it came out of a combination of cost over run, production delays, and a need of direct order to have unique items to sell. I think if it sells well we will probably see more sold as single sprues available on direct order only.
221
Post by: Frazzled
ShumaGorath wrote:
Janthkin already gave you the 'Too Damned Late' award, so I'll give you the 'World's Biggest Strawman' award and the 'Missed The Point Completely' trophy (now with added pie!).
The beauty of the internet is that text based conversation is non linear. Besides, it's not like any of you had a point for me to miss.
Thats borderline trolling Shuma.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
Frazzled wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:
Janthkin already gave you the 'Too Damned Late' award, so I'll give you the 'World's Biggest Strawman' award and the 'Missed The Point Completely' trophy (now with added pie!).
The beauty of the internet is that text based conversation is non linear. Besides, it's not like any of you had a point for me to miss.
Thats borderline trolling Shuma.
Yes, because the trophy I was given was such a heartfelt and genuine gift.
221
Post by: Frazzled
Point taken.
Modquisition on:
Gentlemen cease the personal attacks from this point forward on the thread or disciplinary action wil be taken as needed.
1406
Post by: Janthkin
GLaDOS wrote:One 18.25 ounce package chocolate cake mix.
One can prepared coconut pecan frosting.
3/4 cup vegetable oil.
Four large eggs.
One cup semi-sweet chocolate chips.
3/4 cups butter or margarine.
1 2/3 cups granulated sugar.
Two cups all purpose flower. (note, it says flower, not flour)
Don't forget garnishes such as:
Fish shaped crackers.
Fish shaped candies.
Fish shaped solid waste.
Fish shaped dirt.
Fish shaped ethyl benzene.
Pull and peel licorice.
Fish shaped organic compounrs and sediment shaped sediment.
Candy coated peanut butter pieces. Shaped like fish.
One cup lemon juice.
Alpha resins.
Unsaturated polyester resin.
Fiberglass surface resins.
And volatile malted milk impoundments.
Nine large egg yolks.
Twelve medium geosynthetic membranes.
One cup granulated sugar.
An entry called 'how to kill someone with your bare hands.'
Two cups rhubarb, sliced.
2/3 cups granulated rhubarb.
One tablespoon all-purpose rhubarb.
One teaspoon grated orange rhubarb.
Three tablespoons rhubarb, on fire.
One cross borehole electro-magnetic imaging rhubarb.
Two tablespoons rhubarb juice.
Adjustable aluminum head positioner.
Slaughter electric injector.
Cordless electric needle injector.
Injector needle driver.
Injector needle gun.
Cranial caps.
And it contains proven presenatives, deep penetration agents, and gas and odor control chemicals.
That will deodorize and preserve putrid tissue.
See? S'all good, Frazz - we're just talking cake here. Hmm, what's on topic that we haven't discussed yet.... Ooh, I know: no mention of rough rider lances in the summary at all! Discuss.
7375
Post by: BrookM
Well, the lance is a special close combat weapon. I do hope that it stays the way it is now: a cheap one-shot power weapon.
I also hope that Rough Riders can keep their laspistol and ccw as a standard, that they are not required to trade one in for the lance.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Indeed. Last Edition it gave +2S, +2I and Power Weapon on your first charge.
Wouldn't appear in the guns section, as it's not a gun.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Power Fists aren't there either Janth, do you think they've been cut?
BYE
1406
Post by: Janthkin
H.B.M.C. wrote:Power Fists aren't there either Janth, do you think they've been cut? BYE
I briefly worried about that, then remembered that those are defined in the BGB. *whew* Mad Dog Grotsnik wrote:Indeed. Last Edition it gave +2S, +2I and Power Weapon on your first charge.
Wouldn't appear in the guns section, as it's not a gun.
Tanks are ALSO not guns, but appear in the "Summary" section. Obviously, the "Summary" must include all the salient features about the codex, or it'd be a poor summary. As we know GW writes good summaries, the lack of a Lance entry is disturbing! If you're going to disrupt my perfectly good conspiracy theory, you'll have to do better.
117
Post by: Tribune
H.B.M.C. wrote:Tribune wrote:*Not including auctions.
10% discount is from the United Kingdom trade recommended retail price.
Free postage is worldwide as long as you spend £10 or more, but does not include recorded or special delivery.
See the Frequently Asked Questions pages for more details.
Those are some pretty lame caveats Tribune. How many GW products do you buy that are less than £10? Why would you ever mail order less than £10 worth of product? I haven't even seen any auctions at their website (maybe they have an eBay store) but who cares, because everything is 10% off anyway. As far as recorded delivery goes, well, in several years of using them, I've had one thing go missing. It was a pretty significant ' one thing' as well - an Imperial City box, the really big Cities of Death building kit. It got lost as I ordered it during the Christmas period during the middle of a UK Postal Worker's strike.
And you know what happened? They replaced it free of charge a month later.
So, again, those are a pretty lame list of caveats. They do free shipping worldwide, they have a constant discount, they have sales several times a year, they replace missing items. What more do you want?
How about you to read the bit that said:
But looks like a nice deal if you're overseas. Damn
You see, my tongue was in my cheek. I went to the site to check out if there were any exclusions, and saw they were pretty near non-existent. But thanks for laying out my whole point for me in detail.
I guess you're so used to attacking everyone else's posts, you expect the same in return. You need to learn when someone is actually on your side. I'll try to use more emoticons for your benefit in future... 
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
*sigh*
Fine. Jervis is behind the conspiracy. Secretly he hates RR's so they're not getting new models, but a re-boxed set of Atillans. But thier rules have been reduced so that they increase the armour save of their opponents.
Happy now?
Anyway, no unique HTH weapons are included in the summary. I don't think they ever have been in any Codex.
BYE
117
Post by: Tribune
I think The Pithy One is entirely correct.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Tribune wrote:You see, my tongue was in my cheek.
Tone is impossible to register over the interwebs. This is why emoticons were invented, and why I tend to italicise things that I'm stressing in my speech.
BYE
8673
Post by: Da Blak Gobbo
So far everything I've read about the new IG seems pretty solid and can't wait till May. Although I'm slightly saddened by the lowering of initiative across the board for the guard, now more in line with 'normal' humans. It's like Krispy Kreme Doughnuts had a galactic sale and the whole of the Imperial Guard decided to stop by for a bite.
11729
Post by: Gestalt
Hmm I guess the Demolisher being AP1 was a translation error, but it still doesnt make sense than the Vanq is only AP2. It still is only slightly ahead of the demolisher now, and meltas are better except for range. Unless there is more to the Vanq Im not sure how useful it will be compared to Devil Dogs/Sentinels.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
The Vanq has been AP3 up until now, so I'm not really complaining. Of course, they've probably taken away its ability to f ire regular Battlecannon shells, so that kills that idea.
BYE
117
Post by: Tribune
H.B.M.C. wrote:Tone is impossible to register over the interwebs. This is why emoticons were invented, and why I tend to italicise things that I'm stressing in my speech.
Excuses!
168
Post by: foil7102
Da Blak Gobbo wrote:So far everything I've read about the new IG seems pretty solid and can't wait till May. Although I'm slightly saddened by the lowering of initiative across the board for the guard, now more in line with 'normal' humans. It's like Krispy Kreme Doughnuts had a galactic sale and the whole of the Imperial Guard decided to stop by for a bite.
What can you do but pull over in your troop transport and order a couple o hundred thousand dozen when the light is on?
4362
Post by: Ozymandias
Janthkin wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:Power Fists aren't there either Janth, do you think they've been cut?
BYE
I briefly worried about that, then remembered that those are defined in the BGB. *whew*
Mad Dog Grotsnik wrote:Indeed. Last Edition it gave +2S, +2I and Power Weapon on your first charge.
Wouldn't appear in the guns section, as it's not a gun.
Tanks are ALSO not guns, but appear in the "Summary" section. Obviously, the "Summary" must include all the salient features about the codex, or it'd be a poor summary. As we know GW writes good summaries, the lack of a Lance entry is disturbing!
If you're going to disrupt my perfectly good conspiracy theory, you'll have to do better.
Man, someone must have snuck something into Janthkin's morning coffee today. I'm detecting an elevated sarcasm level and a desire for cakes and brownies.
Or he's just as bored as the rest of us for discussing a summary pdf for 23 pages.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
4362
Post by: Ozymandias
H.B.M.C. wrote:Tribune wrote:You see, my tongue was in my cheek.
Tone is impossible to register over the interwebs. This is why emoticons were invented, and why I tend to italicise things that I'm stressing in my speech.
BYE
I always just read your posts with the most sarcastic voice I can think of in my head. In there you don't have an Australian accent though...
Ozymandias, King of Kings
3081
Post by: chaplaingrabthar
Yeah, HBMC has an Eastern European accent in my head. Must be the angry commissar avatar
320
Post by: Platuan4th
foil7102 wrote:Da Blak Gobbo wrote:So far everything I've read about the new IG seems pretty solid and can't wait till May. Although I'm slightly saddened by the lowering of initiative across the board for the guard, now more in line with 'normal' humans. It's like Krispy Kreme Doughnuts had a galactic sale and the whole of the Imperial Guard decided to stop by for a bite.
What can you do but pull over in your troop transport and order a couple o hundred thousand dozen when the light is on?
Easy. You can find a place that sells GOOD donuts.
7375
Post by: BrookM
I always imagine HBMC shouting for some reason. He's one of those "I'M ACTUALLY IN A GOOD MOOD TODAY! I JUST HAVE A VOICE MODULATION PROBLEM!", a bit like BRIAN BLESSED, but then less of a friendly ham and more of old mister Abbernathy.
1406
Post by: Janthkin
Ozymandias wrote:Man, someone must have snuck something into Janthkin's morning coffee today. I'm detecting an elevated sarcasm level and a desire for cakes and brownies.
Or he's just as bored as the rest of us for discussing a summary pdf for 23 pages.
I don't do coffee. One of life's great disappointments, really - it smells so good, and tastes so bad.
Long day, short sleep, and I think we've hashed the first released page of the codex to shreads. Assuming a 96 pg codex, we're still good for another 2208 pages of IG discussion, come early May.
221
Post by: Frazzled
Janthkin just needs a cookie
4362
Post by: Ozymandias
When you ask most people what kind of coffee they like, they'll say "A rich and hearty roast!" and the truth is most people actually like milky weak coffee.* I think coffee with a bit of vanilla cream International Delights and some raw sugar actually tastes pretty good. As does a soy latte from Starbucks.
Remember, coffee and chocolate share a lot of flavors (mostly bitterness) and the chocolate you eat is usually sweetened or mixed with milk so why not do the same for your coffee?
And BTW, I wasn't condemning your statements, I actually found them quite humorous (just out of character).
*Stolen from Malcolm Gladwell.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Coffee makes my head asplode.
And it's not the Caffeine, it's something else. Even girly Decaf make head asplode.
221
Post by: Frazzled
Its because its not beer MDG.
168
Post by: foil7102
Platuan4th wrote:foil7102 wrote:Da Blak Gobbo wrote:So far everything I've read about the new IG seems pretty solid and can't wait till May. Although I'm slightly saddened by the lowering of initiative across the board for the guard, now more in line with 'normal' humans. It's like Krispy Kreme Doughnuts had a galactic sale and the whole of the Imperial Guard decided to stop by for a bite.
What can you do but pull over in your troop transport and order a couple o hundred thousand dozen when the light is on?
Easy. You can find a place that sells GOOD donuts.
Nothing is better than a krispy kreme donut when the light is on and they just came out of the fryer. Anyone who says otherwise is a damn yankee, a communist, or a damn yankee communist.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Frazzled wrote:Its because its not beer MDG.
Oh yeah!
9504
Post by: sonofruss
There is nothing like a dozen original glazed and a cup of coffee. mmmmmmm doughnuts.
On topic guns guns guns tanks tanks tanks rant rant rant we shall see in may.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
I'm from New Orleans, the land of properly covered glazed donuts from MacKenzies. Krispie Kremes taste like styrofoam and they only glaze the top half. Hand-made>assembly line anyday, thank you. Then again, I have real taste buds, too.
9504
Post by: sonofruss
Looks at the bottom of fried dough ring looks glazed to me. But if I want non factory made voodoo doughnuts.
On topic new tanks kewl rant rant rant gripe gripe gripe.
4351
Post by: ubermosher
This Thread: It's no good, I can't maneuver!
Gold Five: Stay on target...
This Thread: We're too close!
Gold Five: Stay on target!
This Thread: Loosen Up!!!!
::Thread is shot down by Modquisition::
1478
Post by: warboss
i'm from chicago (in the LAND OF LINCOLN!!) and we have had krispy kremes for a while. you can cross yankees off that list.
when does the next white dwarf start arriving in people's mailboxes? i'm hoping for some fresh rumors to hit.
221
Post by: Frazzled
Platuan4th wrote:
I'm from New Orleans, the land of properly covered glazed donuts from MacKenzies. Krispie Kremes taste like styrofoam and they only glaze the top half. Hand-made>assembly line anyday, thank you.
Then again, I have real taste buds, too.
Well...yeah. But thats not fair, you're in New Orleans.
6931
Post by: frgsinwntr
ok... in attempt to bring this thread back....
Any new rumors/leaks?!
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Only the more solid info on the Shadowsword kit I posted in the other thread. And that the Valk in the WD was absoltuley-without-a-doubt-100%-confirmed-even-though-we-already-knew-it-but-it's-worth-saying-again-anyway the plastic one.
BYE
168
Post by: foil7102
Frazzled wrote:Platuan4th wrote:
I'm from New Orleans, the land of properly covered glazed donuts from MacKenzies. Krispie Kremes taste like styrofoam and they only glaze the top half. Hand-made>assembly line anyday, thank you.
Then again, I have real taste buds, too.
Well...yeah. But thats not fair, you're in New Orleans.
Yeah no kidding, that is not fair. New Orleans is in a class by itself, why do you even know what a donut tastes like? benigets are a thing of beauty.
181
Post by: gorgon
Krispy Kremes are overrated. They're like the golden retriever of the doughnut world. They're nice enough, I guess, but so bland and generic when you have so many other varieties out there with more character.
Try a German fastnacht or Polish paczki sometime. Or one of the countless other ethnic varieties out there.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
foil7102 wrote:Yeah no kidding, that is not fair. New Orleans is in a class by itself, why do you even know what a donut tastes like? benigets are a thing of beauty.
Indeed beignets are amazing and infinitely better.
221
Post by: Frazzled
I like chocolate filled donuts. Its a bane of my existence that I'm limited on carb intake, yet am on the team that sell donuts at church. Oh the Humanity!
12061
Post by: halonachos
Personally I stick with Honeydew or Dunkin Donuts, the inbreds of the donut world.
But the banewolf as I told my Space Marine buddy is a SM F***ER. I mean if the rumor about its attacks are true, with a 2+ wound and AP3 I almost shat a brick. Especially that its an instant hit template weapon.
12061
Post by: halonachos
Sorry I can't read french so can some one who reads french tell me if this is true.
11824
Post by: He Who Stood
Raxmei wrote:Heavy weapons teams appear to be single 2-wound models. This might cause some people inconvenience.
yeah, its cool and all, but ruins my bloody day. i have 20 squads of guard packing missle launcers right now, and in may i have to move them all out
6961
Post by: Mort
The best donuts I've ever had come from Long's Bakery, in Indy. Absolute gamer kryptonite.
This actually ties in to gaming somewhat, as GenCon is in Indy, and many of you go to GenCon - sooooooo, if possible, when in Indy for GenCon, try to get to one of their locations and get some fresh donuts. The earlier in the morning the better, and if you are able to get them just as they come out of the glazer - I can not be held responsible for any ecstatic spasms you might suffer.
DO NOT buy their donuts from the various stores across the city - they don't do justice to the real-deal. (Just like Krispy Kremes from truckstops and convenience stores. Yuck!).
How does this tie in to a new IG codex? Well... donuts are a lot like new GW Codex books - when they are fresh, they are sweet and wonderful. But after they sit for a time, they become stale, bland, and unedible - no matter how good they originally were.
Reaching, I know.
12061
Post by: halonachos
I don't know, but I hope Yarrick gets an invulnerable save as well. I mean how can he be so amazing in the fluff and not have one. I mean surviving being run over by a battlewagon, being headbutted by Ghazgkull, and having his arm chopped off should give a guy an invuln save.
11824
Post by: He Who Stood
yeah, i agree you with you man^^
or at least FNP
7375
Post by: BrookM
I guess none of you guys ever tried or heard of stroopwafels?
4437
Post by: Narlix
This Plus your avatar is solid gold by the way.
The real deal with Krispy Kreme is the fact you can get them hot, they actually still make their donuts in store, unlike Dunken and most grocery stores whitch ship them in frozen and thaw them out.
Also holding a national chain up to a mom and pop operation isn't really fair either.
I mean Papa Johns Pizza is good for chain pizza, but it is nothing but dog food 9 that i would be ashamed to feed to a dog) compared to a well done mom and pop pizza place. so just like armies and codex's compare apples to apples not pears, they might look similar but are two very diffrent things.
I will be honest, use some of the rumored points costs and leaks,
my 1000 point IG list is getting 1 more squad of troops, 1 comand squad, another chimera, and another griffon, thats alot of goodies.
168
Post by: foil7102
gorgon wrote:Krispy Kremes are overrated. They're like the golden retriever of the doughnut world. They're nice enough, I guess, but so bland and generic when you have so many other varieties out there with more character.
Try a German fastnacht or Polish paczki sometime. Or one of the countless other ethnic varieties out there.
My grandfather is Polish, and there is a reason why you only eat paczki one time a year...... Two times a year will cause instant morbid obesity, combined by diabetes, and insulin shock, and a massive coronary. Worth it though!
12061
Post by: halonachos
Narlix wrote:
The real deal with Krispy Kreme is the fact you can get them hot, they actually still make their donuts in store, unlike Dunken and most grocery stores whitch ship them in frozen and thaw them out.
Actually, my Dunkin' makes their donuts in store, although they stopped making the manager's choice which had chopped up peanuts and chocolate on top.
Krispy Kreme is decent but have no variety, you can get glazed and chocolate glazed and wheat. 
Dunkin' has blueberry, chocolate glazed, chocolate, vanilla kreme, raspberry, boston kreme, strawberry frosted, maple frosted, and  . Not really but good donuts. Plus their coffee is great.
12061
Post by: halonachos
Whoops, quoted myself.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
foil7102 wrote:Nothing is better than a krispy kreme donut when the light is on and they just came out of the fryer. Anyone who says otherwise is a damn yankee, a communist, or a damn yankee communist.
Sadly, you'll find that Krispy Kreme donuts outside the South just aren't the same as those that are. A Krispy Kreme donut from the South is a fine piece of artwork. For some reason, though, AZ and CA Krispy Kreme's fresh out of the fryer just seem to be glazed, hot uncooked dough.
4875
Post by: His Master's Voice
foil7102 wrote:gorgon wrote:Krispy Kremes are overrated. They're like the golden retriever of the doughnut world. They're nice enough, I guess, but so bland and generic when you have so many other varieties out there with more character.
Try a German fastnacht or Polish paczki sometime. Or one of the countless other ethnic varieties out there.
My grandfather is Polish, and there is a reason why you only eat paczki one time a year...... Two times a year will cause instant morbid obesity, combined by diabetes, and insulin shock, and a massive coronary. Worth it though!
Two generations outside of the motherland and you're a sissy
Anyway, once you eat 15 or so you really have enough for the rest of the year. Might try eating less, but the rose filling, oh the rose filling...
123
Post by: Alpharius
This is what we're left with after 20+ pages.
Almost makes GW's "no showing anything" stance seem a little smater than it is...
1406
Post by: Janthkin
Alpharius wrote:This is what we're left with after 20+ pages.
Almost makes GW's "no showing anything" stance seem a little smater than it is...
Nonsense. Most of the back-and-forth angst is the result of too little information. If we knew how the codex addresses KPs and Heavy Weapons, and knew which tanks they were actually going to make models for, we'd have a 2 page thread, plus 2 pages for donuts.
Mmmm, donuts.
9504
Post by: sonofruss
Rant rant whine whine obscure H.B.M.C. quote nothing from DD valk looks cool so do the other figs lots of big guns ect.
some of you have not been in a kk in a while they have about 2 dozen different styles of doughnuts.
123
Post by: Alpharius
Janthkin wrote:Alpharius wrote:This is what we're left with after 20+ pages.
Almost makes GW's "no showing anything" stance seem a little smater than it is...
Nonsense. Most of the back-and-forth angst is the result of too little information. If we knew how the codex addresses KPs and Heavy Weapons, and knew which tanks they were actually going to make models for, we'd have a 2 page thread, plus 2 pages for donuts.
Mmmm, donuts.
My main complaint was the "Doughnut" sub-thread in the "Imperial Guard reference sheet online" thread.
i.e., time for this thread to die!
3081
Post by: chaplaingrabthar
What if I modelled my IG 60mm 2-wound heavy weapon bases as doughnuts? Would that drag the thread back on topic?
1406
Post by: Janthkin
chaplaingrabthar wrote:What if I modelled my IG 60mm 2-wound heavy weapon bases as doughnuts? Would that drag the thread back on topic?
If your heavy weapons troopers ate ENOUGH doughnuts, that would explain the need for a 60mm base! Genius!
3081
Post by: chaplaingrabthar
Maybe the 1st wound is from all the delicious glaze.
666
Post by: Necros
There's a bakery near me that makes donuts. And they're gooder than the Yankee Krispy Kreeme that we had up here.
And my sister lives down the block from a bakery that makes the best cheesecake in the whole wide world.
123
Post by: Alpharius
Fantastic!
10013
Post by: moonfire
please stop talkin abour freaking do stuff, this is a rummour thread I see the admins closing it soon if this keeps up
7899
Post by: The Dreadnote
So be it, useful content ended about 20 pages ago.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Let's be honest, it ended on the first page. It's basically been me whining since then.
BYE
4977
Post by: jp400
BLAH BLAH BLAH!
JABBA JABBA JABBA!
YIDDLE YIDDLE YIDDLE!
Hey look, I just contributed just as much as 3/4 of the people here.
Rofl.
Also when it comes to fatpills, nothing beats homemade Apple Fritters. 
4362
Post by: Ozymandias
H.B.M.C. wrote:Let's be honest, it ended on the first page. It's basically been me whining since then.
BYE
Ok, I may have to sig this just to prove that you actually said it!
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
gorgon wrote:Krispy Kremes are overrated.
Try a German fastnacht or Polish paczki sometime.
Agreed - light and fluffy, but no real substance.
Of course, I especially like crullers, so who am I to talk?
I'm no Pole, but after many years in the Detroit area, I do love those "punch-key" donuts! One of girls in the office would bring in those nice donuts that come out special every Fat Tuesday.
____
foil7102 wrote:My grandfather is Polish, and there is a reason why you only eat paczki one time a year...... Two times a year will cause instant morbid obesity, combined by diabetes, and insulin shock, and a massive coronary. Worth it though!
Pfft. I used to special order a box of 4 just for myself. Yum!
Of course, over here in SoCal, we don't have a sizable Polish community, so I have to "make do" with ordinary jelly donuts. So far, it's been one-a-day since Tuesday.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
moonfire wrote:please stop talkin abour freaking do stuff, this is a rummour thread I see the admins closing it soon if this keeps up
Meh.
We just need more rumors and confirmations from GW.
7375
Post by: BrookM
I hear the evil eye of Yarrick is being ramped up.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
I think Yarrick getting T4 is good enough. Nothing was more heartbreaking that seeing a T3 Yarrick, or 'Yarrick-Lite' as I called him, in the last Codex.
Hopefully he'll get Eternal Warrior and will become the toughest human in the game, as he should be.
BYE
9505
Post by: CaptainRavenclaw
The rumour I'm really hoping for is super elite stormtroopers. One vetran srg. and four special weapons.
Take that armour, my super elite stormtroopers shall deepstrike and take out a can opener on you!!
If only my hopes and dreams did come true. Until then, I shall keep it as a house rule.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
@s.j. - If it's a vet & 4 Specials, Hellguns can be S1 AP- for all they'll matter.
9142
Post by: Axyl
Ok, after getting bored with this thread after the first few pages, I jumped to the last two and I just have one question:
Where did this thread go wrong????
When I have more time perhaps I read the other 200 posts that I didn't bother reading and get to the bottom of this.
Edit: In an attempt to stay more on topic...
Yay go IG!!!
1406
Post by: Janthkin
Axyl wrote:Ok, after getting bored with this thread after the first few pages, I jumped to the last two and I just have one question:
Where did this thread go wrong????
When I have more time perhaps I read the other 200 posts that I didn't bother reading and get to the bottom of this.
Edit: In an attempt to stay more on topic...
Yay go IG!!!
Wrong? This thread is so right, in many ways! It's got drama, conflict, lots of guns, and doughknots.
46
Post by: alarmingrick
@Janthkin you forgot to mention HBMC whining!
and while doughnuts are great, there's no pie!!
enough rumors, let's have the damn book.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Jesus... HMBC's even taking credit for my whining now. I'm going to report him to the mods...
BYE
46
Post by: alarmingrick
Damn!!
sorry oh great and forgiving one!! it's just all these roumrs!
9158
Post by: Hollismason
This thread sucks everyone has drug it into oblivion.
7301
Post by: Ivan
Ok, so I'd like to discuss something relatively serious:
Astropath is pretty much confirmed to give +1 to friendly reserves coming in. So stuff comes in sooner. That's not always good.
Fleet Officers is pretty much confirmed to give them -1 to their stuff coming in. Which is not always good.
If I'm going first, I get a turn of shooting up their crap. They rush forward (cant deep strike/outflank). My turn, stuff is more likely to come in. Their stuff is likely to be in transports. So I shoot it, not so effective, it almost certainly popped smoke. Still, if drop meltas and such still exist in the new codex, it's more firepower. But turning a 4+ each to a 3+ to each means my crap will be on the board earlier than it is now. Maybe on their turn when they branch out from my 25 yard line, some of their stuff will go backward to kill the droppers, maybe some forward. At that point it turns into the messy close quarter battles that I dont much like as a Guard player. Particularly cause it means my ordinance templates cant shoot (friendlies too close), scatter onto my stuff, etc.
Mmm. Ugh. The ability to make stuff come in sooner/later. It changes the dynamic of things a great deal. Why have I heard you guys yammering about stupid nonsensical bickery crap like heavy weapons basing... and nobody has had any interesting things to say about something relevant?
The locals talk a lot about how the dakka forums are the place to hear intelligent discussion about the game. If this thread is any indicator... it sounds like you guys would rather bicker about some piddling-assed minor issue (and feed the person vs person drama) than discuss something that is potentially much more significant.
3081
Post by: chaplaingrabthar
Hollismason wrote:This thread sucks everyone has drug it into oblivion.
Thanks. For. That.
Really restoring credibility there.
So, any guesses on points costs for the new Hellhound & Russ variants?
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Ivan wrote:The locals talk a lot about how the dakka forums are the place to hear intelligent discussion about the game. If this thread is any indicator... it sounds like you guys would rather bicker about some piddling-assed minor issue (and feed the person vs person drama) than discuss something that is potentially much more significant.
I'm reporting you to the mods for implying that a discussion about donuts isn't important. 
Actually what you said is something we could look at. The +1/-1 thing is interesting not just because of the stackability, but because there's a rule that actually hurts your opponent. I can't see reserves coming on later as anything but a downside most of the time, but I'm just amazed that they'd include a rule that affects your opponent's abilities.
Also all this depends on how the rules are worded:
1. If you take a Fleet Officer you may add +1 to any reserve rolls you make.
2. If you take a Fleet Officer you add +1 to any reserve rolls you make.
Those two are the same except for one word, and they change its tactical use completely. It could also say:
3. If you take a Fleet Officer you may add +1 to any single reserve roll per turn.
4. If you take a Fleet Officer you add +1 to any single reserve roll per turn.
Again, different in the way they work, and more limited in application than the first two. I suspect the Artillery Officer or whatever the one that gives the enemy -1 is, will have the same sort of structure.
What do others think? Do we like the idea of a single model on one side affecting all the dice rolls on the other?
BYE
7301
Post by: Ivan
See, now we are getting somewhere... unlike the last 3 pages of this thread.
I'm of a cynical persuasion myself, HBMC. And often inclined to agree with you (for instance I happen to agree that 15 points of SM plasma does not equal 15 points of IG plasma... but lets not get off there again).
I fully agree that "may" makes ALL the difference. And I'm keeping in mind that (presumably) "may" makes a difference in point values for a given option.
That said, how much is +1 to my reserves rolls worth? How much is it worth with "may"?
How much is -1 to theirs worth? How much with the "may" option?
You said (or at least implied) reserves coming on later is always a bad thing. I disagree. Part of that is based on the current IG codex's ability to give any particular unit deep strike at +0 points. I'd argue that a deep striking unit (and even more so for multiples) on the last turn is VERY valuable. Because 2/3 of games are objective based. And many is the time I've had a non-deviating drop pod plop itself down within 3" of my objective at the bottom of turn 5. Or have some Eldar/Tau/etc fast vehicle go zip over within 3" to contest. Sure, only a 1/3 chance the game ends at that point... but it's often enough to make me snarl and go smoke a cigarette and contemplate the very messy death of those who say "KP is balanced cause the other 2/3 of missions IG has so many scoring units". And IG doesnt have good delivery systems for last turn contesting/controlling... yet. Maybe the Valk will solve that. Maybe it wont. The cynic in me, like you, wants to belive that GW has no idea WTF theyre doing insofar as designing for game balance. But I've lost a LOT of games, through no fault of my gameplay, since 5th came out. And I still hold out hope that they have some idea what theyre doing.
And I think fiddling with the reserves rolls is FAR more important to discuss than heavy weapons becoming 2 wound models. And yes, I understand the implications of HW teams being 2 wound models. But I dont understand why bigger issues havent been heavily discussed before now, particularly by Guard-expert forum members like yourself.
So really, what are your thoughts?
And so sorry to be rude... but I'm going to speak frankly. Please leave your ego battle with "other nameless members on here" out of the discussion. The community is greater than that. And I've seen lots of silly bs about your ego battle and not nearly enough about real issues.
Respectfully,
-John
666
Post by: Necros
I agree about the late deep striking too. Especially with fragile guardsmen that might not be able to sit on an objective for 6 turns and live, or risk hoofing it out in the open to get to an objective. It's really great when you can land your platoon right where it needs to be anywhere on the table. And if all went well you thoroughly shelled the whole area beforehand so there will be less resistance when you land
I'm betting though it's gonna be the end of the drop troops as we know it. Maybe there will be a special char that will allow for some units to have grav chutes, but I doubt it'll be for everything. Instead, they're prolly gonna push valkyrie transporting instead so they can sell more new models. Which might not be a bad thing, I really like the idea of airborne guard, and if I were starting the army now that would definitely be my theme. but i have too much invested in my old gunline & armor army so I may as well stick with what works.
11623
Post by: DebonaireToast
Ivan wrote:
Fleet Officers is pretty much confirmed to give them -1 to their stuff coming in. Which is not always good.
That caught my eye as well, I wasn't sure if it had been discussed in this thread or not (didn't feel like sorting through the 700+ posts.)
It certainly changes the game mechanics a good deal - but that's not entirely unprecedented. (ie: Demon deployment or lack thereof, Venerable Dreads:"No, I don't like that roll - try again.")
As far as utility: I suppose it all boils down to point cost. If I knew I was going up against demons or deathwing I would take it every time.
3892
Post by: greynite1
Just for the Record I love the new additions that I have seen. From my own guard experience I will definitely miss doctrines. I really loved how
you could assign certain groups to infiltrate or be jungle fighters or whatever. some of them weren't great like the universal equipment stuff.
I'm with HBMC that I don't like using special characters to give a specific benefit to the army I would rather that just be a characteristic of the
force because I like to make up my own stuff.
I would really like to discuss how we will be using some fo the New Versions of the Ogryns and Storm Troopers.
Also what to do with veterans now. They were a mainstay of my army now they seem like they will be quite different.
Different ways to use the Valkyries and Vendettas? Its our first time having a skimmer anything I believe since the RT era.
Probably need more info for most of these discussions.
Just throwing some fodder out there.
10279
Post by: focusedfire
Ivan wrote:And I think fiddling with the reserves rolls is FAR more important to discuss than heavy weapons becoming 2 wound models. And yes, I understand the implications of HW teams being 2 wound models. But I dont understand why bigger issues havent been heavily discussed before now, particularly by Guard-expert forum members like yourself.
OK, Now its time to poke the Bear
Seriously though after reading all of the pages about the "possible" move to 2-wound HWTs it astounds me that no one brought up it being a fair trade for being able to hide heavies in back without giving a coversave to your opponent because of the new (RUMORED)orders rules. I still get the feeling that they will also have some(RUMOR) "sandbag" rule that improves thier coversave. Probalbly 1 but maybe 2 major improvements with no price increase. I'll deal with the inconveinence if I'm not giving a cover save to my enemy.
As to the Tanks. Look at the SkyRay for the Tau. It can be the SkyRay, Railhead, Ionhead, or just a Devilfish. I think that is how they are going to be packaged, so no big problem there. Then enough variation to keep the most crazed modeler busy until 6th ed and almost enough ordinance to cover every square inch of the battle field in a single battle.
Stormtroops, Math says 2dead SMs before rapid fire and at those ranges cover shouldn't be to much of an issue.
These along with everything else makes for some very enjoyable games against the Emperors Hammer. Can't wait to see if it matches the hype.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Ivan wrote:See, now we are getting somewhere... unlike the last 3 pages of this thread.
Nothin' wrong with a bit of fun now and then. All work and no donuts makes Jack a dull boy.
Ivan wrote:I'm of a cynical persuasion myself, HBMC. And often inclined to agree with you (for instance I happen to agree that 15 points of SM plasma does not equal 15 points of IG plasma... but lets not get off there again).
Good to hear. The world would be far to bleak without cynicism to fuel us.
Ivan wrote:That said, how much is +1 to my reserves rolls worth? How much is it worth with "may"?
I can see these units being 30-50 points a piece - with or without the 'may' option.
Ivan wrote:I'd argue that a deep striking unit (and even more so for multiples) on the last turn is VERY valuable.
So do I, and that's what's good about the Fleet Command guy, but at the same time, its' hard to fail a reserve roll late game, and now on turn 5 they show up automatically anyway. As a result I see these two characters as having very specific uses that would be tied directly to your list rather than everyone bringing them as ' just in case' upgrades. The +1 to your Reserve Rolls is going to show up ina tank heavy or Valk heavy army, to ensure that tanks get on the table/Valks show up when you want them to. For a gunline... not so much. We're losing Drop Troops, as you've probably already guessed, so the actual rule this guy would have been perfect for won't be around for us to make use of it.
Oh well!
Ivan wrote:And I think fiddling with the reserves rolls is FAR more important to discuss than heavy weapons becoming 2 wound models. And yes, I understand the implications of HW teams being 2 wound models. But I dont understand why bigger issues havent been heavily discussed before now, particularly by Guard-expert forum members like yourself.
Hey, come May we're all back to square one. In fact, unless I go out of my way to learn that Codex, I won't be any better than anyone else. I can still offer general Guard advice, and for the most part I don't see many of Guard's core concepts going out the window, but when that new 'Dex hits my status as a Guard Guru goes BYE BYE.
Ivan wrote:And so sorry to be rude... but I'm going to speak frankly. Please leave your ego battle with "other nameless members on here" out of the discussion. The community is greater than that. And I've seen lots of silly bs about your ego battle and not nearly enough about real issues.
Hey he hasn't shown up much in this thread, so I haven't really said anything.
Ivan wrote:Respectfully,
-John
*gasp* Your name's John too? But your user name is Ivan. See now I'm confused.
BYE
4926
Post by: Neil
So I just got back from lunch.
After reading this thread, I couldn't help but buy a donut. Not a Krispy Kreme donut, oh no. Those things are the stuff of legend around sleepy old Adelaide. Occasionally someone will bring in a box of Krispy Cremes on a plane from Melbourne (Yes, we air freight them in)... but they're never really fresh that way, are they. So I went to Gourmet Glaze - basically a Krispy Creme knock off, but I haven't had frsh Krispy Kremes so I couldn't compare the quality.
So I gets to thinking, we call the large blast marker pie. But it has a hole in the middle. And what is a pie with a hole in the middle, but a donut? I for one shall now shout "Eat flaming donut!" every time I fire my incendiary castellan rounds. Maybe that's a reason to take the Nova cannon - flaming donuts.
I need to plan out this new Guard army. I had one once upon a time, a PDF militia. A back of the book army form an expansion, and for some reason GW doesn't support it anymore! Come on, they had half a page at the back of a supplement, they should be supported for ever, bad form GW so after a year or so of trying to bash it into a legal list and telling my opponent "All the Autoguns are Lasguns, the Heavy Stubbers are Autocannons, the Plasma Cannon is a Plasma Gun.." I gave up, and sold most of it off. Still have the Russ and Demolisher, and a few Necro gangs (Escher, Ratskins, Van Saar... lots of Van Saar..).
New plan is to do the Piscina PDF. Make an army to go alongside my Dark Angels in Apocalypse games. Paint them all up in the Dark Angels colour scheme. Which happens to be exactly the same as the Cadian 8th colour scheme on the front of the current IG codex... so I'll have to put lots of Dark Angels icons on them, too. Then everyone who complained when I wanted to use Marines painted as Dark Angels with Codex: Space Marines can complain that I'm using the Imperial Guard codex with models painted as Dark Angels, hah!
I've got a couple of heavy weapon teams (that I bought purely for the 60mm bases.. most expensive bases ever..). Have to figure out how to base them now. I was planning to base them individually and give them missile launchers, looks like that's no go now. A shame, I was planning to use GF9 Daemon movement trays to make deployment easier. I might go Tank heavy instead, to match the mechanised Dark Angels. That makes more sense, and more apocalyptic. But there's just not enough Heavy slots! And will I repaint my old tanks? They look awful but have sentimental value (they're covered in graffiti by the PDF gangs you see). And I'll have to get a Nova cannon.
For the Flaming Donuts.
10086
Post by: Neconilis
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ivan wrote:Respectfully,
-John
*gasp* Your name's John too? But your user name is Ivan. See now I'm confused.
BYE
See how he said respectfully? That's how you can tell the difference
12061
Post by: halonachos
What I'm wondering is how much my stormtroopers are going to cost now that they can actually kill space marines with little to no sweat.
I also thought conscripts were leaving, never used them so them staying is no big deal for me. I want to see some of the special rules though.
AND what about that weapon that counts as both a pistol and a sniper. I mean a rending pistol is nice.
I showed the list of weapons to some of my Space Marines players and they instantly called shenanigans and prayed that the new Space Wolves codex would destroy the IG.
2050
Post by: Anung Un Rama
H.B.M.C. wrote:I think Yarrick getting T4 is good enough. Nothing was more heartbreaking that seeing a T3 Yarrick, or 'Yarrick-Lite' as I called him, in the last Codex.
Hopefully he'll get Eternal Warrior and will become the toughest human in the game, as he should be.
BYE
You can be glad if he's not "slow and purposeful" with his wheelchair. I don't know if he's the toughest human in the game, but he sure is the oldest
12077
Post by: Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar
halonachos wrote:AND what about that weapon that counts as both a pistol and a sniper. I mean a rending pistol is nice.
That's Sly Marbo's Ripper Pistol.
BOY!
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
They used to have Krispy Cream down in Hong Kong, whenever someone came up on a business trip they were required to bring a box or 3 for the office.
But they closed down.
632
Post by: AdeptSister
I know its for balance and its only Str 3, but the Helguns being ap3 is kinda weird. AP4 sure, possibly. But AP 3??? At AP4 they would be really useful against a lot of Xenos, but AP3 is truly aimed at Marines. They really are making power armor not as important as it use to be.
Of course, stormtroopers would have to drop to 7-8 points to make them worth it.
1656
Post by: smart_alex
I think the AP is great. For the longest time Ive had a 10 man storm trooper squad with only 8 guys painted. They just sucked too much to want to paint. Now I will finish it. We also have areason to take ogryn again.
8272
Post by: FlammingGaunt
My friends you play IG will be happy to hear this.
7899
Post by: The Dreadnote
Don't think this has been posted on Dakka yet (and if it has I damn well couldn't find it when I looked): the parts from the new command squad boxes.
1
6946
Post by: Dexy
It's been posted :p
2050
Post by: Anung Un Rama
Do we know yet how the troop section is organized in the new 'Dex? I heard they changed the platoon rule.
7375
Post by: BrookM
From what I heard platoons are still the minimum of one command squad and two infantry squads. The other three squads may either be infantry or support squads.
8673
Post by: Da Blak Gobbo
Da Blak Gobbo wrote:So far everything I've read about the new IG seems pretty solid and can't wait till May. Although I'm slightly saddened by the lowering of initiative across the board for the guard, now more in line with 'normal' humans. It's like Krispy Kreme Doughnuts had a galactic sale and the whole of the Imperial Guard decided to stop by for a bite.
OK, I guess my comment about the Doughnuts completely derailed the tread for a few pages and eclipsed my earlier point, so i'll try again. Why have our characters and supporting units (commissars ect.) suddenly gotten slower? I used to love having my PW wielding commissar and officer strike before marines (with hardened fighters of course) or at LEAST the same time. Even the characters are slow except for Sly Rambo...I mean Marbo . So far so good though, all we need now is a kick ass fluff section and a good gallery and the book will be great.
9574
Post by: Jarran
For the cadian command squad, is the arm with the power sword a robotic arm?
10123
Post by: BoxANT
They may have dropped everyone to Initiative 3, but they are handing out BS4 much more freely
11
Post by: ph34r
The big thing I'm wondering about right now is whether heavy weapon squads (support squads?) will be 10 or 6 wounds.
2050
Post by: Anung Un Rama
Does anyone have any idea what we can expect from the penal legionaires? Or how the priests are used this time around?
I'm already looking forward to adding some corrupted Guard units to my Death Guard.
12061
Post by: halonachos
Penal legionaires could be fearless or stubborn, from what I've heard.
But does anyone know how to get the infinite items in Pokemon Leaf green, I just picked it up again and I don't remember how.
Oh, and if I can I'm gonna get 3 deathstrikes just for the hell of it. I mean the chance of a 12inch S10 AP1 blast is just too good to pass up for anything. I look forward to eliminating my enemy with these alone, even if they are impossible to fire.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
It's March! Soon we will actually see some damn preorders go up! Yay!!!
@halonachos I think you can only do it in Emerald, not Leaf Green.
123
Post by: Alpharius
BrookM wrote:From what I heard platoons are still the minimum of one command squad and two infantry squads. The other three squads may either be infantry or support squads.
Warseer has some interesting rumors about how KPs might be handled with them too...
7375
Post by: BrookM
I've got a feeling that the KP issue will be ignored with the codex.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
BrookM wrote:From what I heard platoons are still the minimum of one command squad and two infantry squads. The other three squads may either be infantry or support squads.
Ah! That is such a good idea.
Out of all the things we've done with The Revisited Project, Guard is the one that's had me the most stumped. I'm looking forward to see how GW does this because I need some inspiration.
BrookM wrote:I've got a feeling that the KP issue will be ignored with the codex.
I've got a feeling that GW don't even realise that KP's are an issue for Guard.
BYE
4977
Post by: jp400
BrookM wrote:I've got a feeling that the KP issue will be ignored with the codex.
Ive got that feeling myself..
If it is true, their are going to be ALOT of sad guard players in the world.
Also any other long time guard players besides myself think its funny how 12 months ago hardly anyone wanted to play guard other then "die hards" and now if you look at the swap shop every other submission is someone trying to get guard?
7375
Post by: BrookM
The thing with KP's is that the Imperial Guard is about the only army affected in a bad way by this, which is for GW not enough reason to FAQ it.
10279
Post by: focusedfire
Tau, also, are affected but won't see a new dex for at least 1&1/2 years.
8218
Post by: Raxmei
At least better mechanization should make objectives easier. Fixing the kill points issue would be harder since the independent ten man squad of T3 5+ save models appears to be a fairly fundamental part of how the guard works. At we don't appear to have gotten any worse. Infantry squads are still ten wounds, support squads might also be ten wounds, and unless they did something silly like pile on more mandatory ICs command squads can't possibly get any worse than the current implementation.
2776
Post by: Reecius
Dont even joke about that!!!!! KP's ruin IG at the moment, it isn't even funny. If they do not address KP's I will fly to Nottingham and ninja kick the author of this codex in the junk!
4977
Post by: jp400
Reecius wrote:Dont even joke about that!!!!! KP's ruin IG at the moment, it isn't even funny. If they do not address KP's I will fly to Nottingham and ninja kick the author of this codex in the junk!
Book the seat next to you on the plane, cause ill be the guy holding the Author so you can kick him in the balls hopefully with steel toed boots. 
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
And I'll come with you to hunt down Jervis. Not for any specific reason mind you, I just think it needs to be done.
BYE
4977
Post by: jp400
H.B.M.C:
We can tie him up and make him carry on a conversation with JohnHwang as punishment.
8021
Post by: JD21290
then i might aswell tag along, simply to spend some time in the bar
12007
Post by: Feldmarshal Goehring
I hope the author gets it right, because we are talking about a lot of junk kicking!!
I think that we have passed into the realm of permanent damage.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
jp400 wrote:H.B.M.C:
We can tie him up and make his carry on a conversation with JohnHwang as punishment.
I'll be there too, so so I can watch the two craziest posters on dakka shout at eachother about little plastic men.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
If you're there it'll be the three craziest people, Shummy my man.
But three's a crowd, so I'll leave you and DD to it and head to the Bugman's with JD21290.
BYE
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
And we've derailed the thread again... hmmm...
Ok, so, yeah, back on topic.
Warseer has done a third edition of their summary. The most frightening part of it is:
The Cadian and Catachan Boxes are reportedly 10 man sets WITHOUT a heavy weapon included. The kits are supposedly unchanged in sculpts and contents. The Catachans supposedly will NOT have scaled down arms.
So 1/2 the models for 2/3rds the price, as predicted. No HW sprue would really suck, and makes me feel better about buying that box'o'20 Cadians last week.
BYE
123
Post by: Alpharius
H.B.M.C. wrote:And I'll come with you to hunt down Jervis. Not for any specific reason mind you, I just think it needs to be done.
BYE
Yes, it does.
4977
Post by: jp400
H.B.M.C. wrote:And we've derailed the thread again... hmmm...
Ok, so, yeah, back on topic.
Warseer has done a third edition of their summary. The most frightening part of it is:
The Cadian and Catachan Boxes are reportedly 10 man sets WITHOUT a heavy weapon included. The kits are supposedly unchanged in sculpts and contents. The Catachans supposedly will NOT have scaled down arms.
So 1/2 the models for 2/3rds the price, as predicted. No HW sprue would really suck, and makes me feel better about buying that box'o'20 Cadians last week.
BYE
Egad...........
Say it aint so.
10123
Post by: BoxANT
Argh, the KP issue would be so easy to fix!
Just make it so normal guard infantry squads (non platoon command squads) do not give up KPs!
That would bring IG forces more in line with the average KPs in most armies...
As for no HW in IG 10man boxes, i really hope that does not come true. Better buy some more boxes of cadians...
9003
Post by: AlfredTheStrange
The new warseer sumary, says anyone who can take a chimera now will be able to get valkyries. How likely do you folks think that is? If it is we might see some flying ogryn squads.
11729
Post by: Gestalt
AlfredTheStrange wrote:The new warseer sumary, says anyone who can take a chimera now will be able to get valkyries. How likely do you folks think that is? If it is we might see some flying ogryn squads.
Unless they can assault out of it it doesnt seem worth it for a transport. They probably are an exception to that rule anyway, its hard enough to get them into a chimera.
1478
Post by: warboss
H.B.M.C. wrote:No HW sprue would really suck, and makes me feel better about buying that box'o'20 Cadians last week.
shame on you! buying more guardsmen and tanks is it's own reward! as a loyal servant of the god-emperor, it's heresy to want more!!!!
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
AlfredTheStrange wrote:The new warseer sumary, says anyone who can take a chimera now will be able to get valkyries. How likely do you folks think that is? If it is we might see some flying ogryn squads.
They released a plastic Carnifex and let you take 6 of them in an army.
They released a plastic Elf Dragon and let you take more than usual in a High Elf army.
They released a plastic Stegadon and let everyone take one as a mount or a unit or whatever.
They're releasing a plastic Valk... do you think they're going to add restrictions or take them away.
BYE
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
H.B.M.C. wrote:AlfredTheStrange wrote:The new warseer sumary, says anyone who can take a chimera now will be able to get valkyries. How likely do you folks think that is? If it is we might see some flying ogryn squads.
They released a plastic Carnifex and let you take 6 of them in an army. They released a plastic Elf Dragon and let you take more than usual in a High Elf army. They released a plastic Stegadon and let everyone take one as a mount or a unit or whatever. They're releasing a plastic Valk... do you think they're going to add restrictions or take them away. BYE
They released a plastic chaos spawn! Look at all of those in peoples armies! Plastic obliter... Wait.. No.. Umm.. What were we talking about? Whiny delusions? Their nob biker sales must be through the roof. Also are you seriously suggesting that because they aren't making a GIANT SOLID METAL TANK ON A FLYING BASE that they are going to overpower it in order to sell more? :edit: Also, I'm not even sure if it would be overpowering. It's just a fast skimmer tank carrying guardsman. It's like an easier to kill falcon, it's hardly six carnifexes or seven landraiders. Though really thats all point dependent.
600
Post by: Thanatos73
H.B.M.C. wrote:And we've derailed the thread again... hmmm...
Ok, so, yeah, back on topic.
Warseer has done a third edition of their summary. The most frightening part of it is:
The Cadian and Catachan Boxes are reportedly 10 man sets WITHOUT a heavy weapon included. The kits are supposedly unchanged in sculpts and contents. The Catachans supposedly will NOT have scaled down arms.
So 1/2 the models for 2/3rds the price, as predicted. No HW sprue would really suck, and makes me feel better about buying that box'o'20 Cadians last week.
BYE
Hmm, good thing I've been picking up boxes of Cadians then.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
ShumaGorath wrote:They released a plastic chaos spawn! Look at all of those in peoples armies! Plastic obliter... Wait.. No.. Umm.. What were we talking about? Whiny delusions? Their nob biker sales must be through the roof.
You are such a fething bore Shummy. This isn't about rules and overpowering and all that other crap. Pay attention. ShumaGorath wrote:Also are you seriously suggesting that because they aren't making a GIANT SOLID METAL TANK ON A FLYING BASE that they are going to overpower it in order to sell more?
I'm actually not suggesting that they're going to overpower it. What I'm suggesting is that their biggest new plastic kit will be made available to as many units as possible so that people can buy lots of them if they want them, just like Tyranid players were suddenly allowed to buy loads of Carnifexes and use them all at once/Dragons all at once/Stegadons all at once. For Guard, the Valk is the release, so they're hardly going to limit the amount you can take in the army by any significant amount. It'd make no sense to release a new Stegadon and then make it so you could only take 1 in an army, now would it? Same applies to the Valk. Everyone will want want it, so lets maximise it and allow lots of different units to take it as a transport, so people can buy heaps. Win/win for everyone as far as I'm concerned. I'm getting 6. BYE
7375
Post by: BrookM
I wouldn't be too surprised when the "interview" of the author in the May issue would result in a "this is the best incarnation yet and I'd suggest we all buy loads of new stuff because it is the awesomest stuff yet and we should all do it. Sorry mister Lantham but could you now remove your hand from my rectum as your interactions with my spine are giving me a headache."
Maybe that Lukas Bastogne chap will be the drop trooper guy you need to take for all your Valkyrie fetishism.
7375
Post by: BrookM
Okay, JWolf of BolS is making a "dream list" in regards to the Imperial Guard codex. Could someone tell me what the snackerdoodle that git is smoking? A heavy platoon? A penal platoon?
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
The good news I'm hearing is, if we can get two special weapons in one squad, I'll be ditching all my heavy weapons except heavy bolters, Autocannons, and Lascannons, all of which were on big bases anyways. So no rebasing! Anyone want a buttload of mortars, missile launchers, and metal figures (snipers, meltas, plasmas, etc)?
Oy! GW! Previews of the new book already!
6987
Post by: Chimera_Calvin
Well, with 3 months to go we can now begin the countdown:
T-62 days to launch of Codex: IG...
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Chimera_Calvin wrote:Well, with 3 months to go we can now begin the countdown:
T-62 days to launch of Codex: IG...
*Shrug* I'm just waiting until my local gW store gets the preview copy in and then I'm stealing it. That's how I got all my other Codexes.
6987
Post by: Chimera_Calvin
Obi-wan has taught you well...
8021
Post by: JD21290
But three's a crowd, so I'll leave you and DD to it and head to the Bugman's with JD21290.
drinking solves all arguments.
mainly as you either forget the point in the argument, or no one can understand you after a while
5832
Post by: jamessearle0
H.B.M.C. wrote:And I'll come with you to hunt down Jervis. Not for any specific reason mind you, I just think it needs to be done.
BYE
but....but....jervis is YOUR homeboy 
6023
Post by: Skinnattittar
How come these Data Sheets look familiar.... I think I may have seen them before the last Guard Codex came out....
2050
Post by: Anung Un Rama
ShumaGorath wrote:
Also are you seriously suggesting that because they aren't making a GIANT SOLID METAL TANK ON A FLYING BASE that they are going to overpower it in order to sell more?
Two words Shuma: Eldar Harlequins!
And in case you missed it, here's something interesting about Kill Points:
from the kiddie pool:
Platoons are rumoured to be able to merge into one big unit (sort of the opposite of Space Marine combat squads). The IG player chooses at the beginning of the game to deploy either as a singe unit or as separate squads. If deployed as a unit, they will probably have to stay within coherency, but will count as 1 Kill Point. If deployed separately they yield individual KPs.
9003
Post by: AlfredTheStrange
H.B.M.C. wrote:AlfredTheStrange wrote:The new warseer sumary, says anyone who can take a chimera now will be able to get valkyries. How likely do you folks think that is? If it is we might see some flying ogryn squads.
They released a plastic Carnifex and let you take 6 of them in an army.
They released a plastic Elf Dragon and let you take more than usual in a High Elf army.
They released a plastic Stegadon and let everyone take one as a mount or a unit or whatever.
They're releasing a plastic Valk... do you think they're going to add restrictions or take them away.
BYE
fair enough. I suppose pricing will decide how widely used it is.
9003
Post by: AlfredTheStrange
Anung Un Rama wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:
And in case you missed it, here's something interesting about Kill Points:
from the kiddie pool:
Platoons are rumoured to be able to merge into one big unit (sort of the opposite of Space Marine combat squads). The IG player chooses at the beginning of the game to deploy either as a singe unit or as separate squads. If deployed as a unit, they will probably have to stay within coherency, but will count as 1 Kill Point. If deployed separately they yield individual KPs.
that would be prety intresting, lead to some intresting trade offs. Biger less flexible squads for fewer KPs or smaller flexible squads for lots of KPs . If you could decide how to split/combine the platoon this would be handy, but if you have to take a single 50 man squad I think it would be to unweildy. (50 man squads could be overkill in shooting leading to wasted shots). *eddit, this was writen by me, not Anung, I did something odd with the quotes and im unsure how to fix it. don't want to put words in Anung mouth.
8288
Post by: Rated G
Wasted shots? They're lasguns.
3933
Post by: Kingsley
50-man squads would be horrible, but not thanks to "wasted lasguns." One failed pinning check would lock up five times the amount it usually does.
On a rather unfortunate note, Warseer is reporting that the squad box will NOT come with a heavy weapon, that support Sentinels are a Heavy Support choice, and that the new Leman Russ will cost 150 points without sponsons, which will go up in price.
6946
Post by: Dexy
Leman Russ are overpriced as it is now!
459
Post by: Hellfury
Anung Un Rama wrote:And in case you missed it, here's something interesting about Kill Points:
from the kiddie pool:
Platoons are rumoured to be able to merge into one big unit (sort of the opposite of Space Marine combat squads). The IG player chooses at the beginning of the game to deploy either as a singe unit or as separate squads. If deployed as a unit, they will probably have to stay within coherency, but will count as 1 Kill Point. If deployed separately they yield individual KPs.
Interesting indeed.
If it works like I think it will then your maxed out unit will be pretty tough to take down (and yielding only a single KP) yet can only fire at a single target (which should by all rights be severely disabled by that amount of attrition thrown at it).
I can see more people using the platoon as a single squad for the most part.
I fought against a ig army in ard boyz that was completely infantry based. It was ridiculous how I couldnt dislodge them with all the cover. and those squads didnt each yield 1 KP each, only the platoons did. This may very well turn out to be quite a headache to approach. time will tell.
1478
Post by: warboss
i don't really see any real benefit having all the different squads in a platoon fighting as one. you'll almost never be able to concentrate all those guns on one target (probably half your guys will only fire once due to rapid fire and that's only IF you didn't move). also, as stated earlier, you'll now have 5x the points sucked up in a lucky assault that makes it to your lines or cowering due to a single unlucky pinning role; that's alot of squads that won't be shooting the next turn compared to the one currently. all bumping up the # of models in a guard "unit" does is delay the inevitable: losing an assault. rarely will the extra guardsmen actually win the CC; instead, they'll just be a big block of guys that aren't shooting and are blocking your firing lanes due to CC for the units that can. i hope this isn't GW's solution as all it does is trade one glaring deficiency for another.
I'd rather have them say that you have to deploy the platoon as one unit and that someone from each squad has to be within a certain distance of the command squad if not equiped with a vox. depending on if the junior officer (or whatever they'll be called) is independent, the command squad can give up one or two KP and the rest of the platoon another. that would actually help the KP situation and still maintain an IG flavor to the solution. will it happen? doubt it. all we can do for now is wait until may and just insist that opponents actually roll for mission types instead of just saying "lets do KP!". (it happens at my FLGS)
9003
Post by: AlfredTheStrange
Rated G wrote:Wasted shots? They're lasguns.
I meant heavy wepons. Say you have five lascanons in your platoon, you would have to fire all five where one might do the job.
1099
Post by: Railguns
I find myself strangely tempted to make a Catachan force with a Vietnam-era theme. I've never wanted to do that before but now....I can't help it.
3933
Post by: Kingsley
Why would this fabled 50-man merged unit even be good? A 35 point Rhino could then tank shock, get lucky, and rout 200+ points worth of enemy. A single sniper could tie up your unit for a turn with a failed pinning check. Ordnance weapons, especially ordnance barrages, would have a field day.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
When it comes to the variable unit size and kill points of the platoons I think its going to be a matter of balancing what suits your tactics. A platoon of 50 might be a bit much as a single unit, but two 25 man platoons acting each as single units might be easily maneuvered. I could see many players maxing out on 6 smaller function as single unit platoons.
2776
Post by: Reecius
Some of you gents are missing the point about the possibility of a huge squad of IG. I don't know how many of you play Guard, but right now, KP's absolutely hobbles the boys. When you roll in with 4 to 5o times the kill points of your opponant, you are just screwed, screwed, screwed. I lost a game where there was ONE bezerker left on the table and I had over half my army left because I gave up more kill points. That disadvantage FAR outweighs any of the circumstantial things that have been brought up. I would instantly group the boys up into big squads as to get a kill point out of them you would have to wipe them out. That is not easy to do! You leave them in cover and shoot like the dickens, then run like hell if a nasty assault squad comes at you. But a mediocre assault squad will have a tough go of it against 50 IG.
I think that would be a brilliant solution to the problem and push guard way up in competetiveness as in objective missions, we are good to go at the moment.
Man, I seriously can not wait to get the new codex! I may even have to change my avatar to my IG captain.
And I am also glad that I just ordered a battleforce of Catachans. I could care less if they huge mondo arms, if I was a Guardsmen in the grim dark future, I would be doing roids like a maniac too!
686
Post by: aka_mythos
Most importantly the variable unit size and kill points allow flexibility. You can choose to use it (to varying degrees) or to play as is. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
666
Post by: Necros
All they gotta do is make it 1 platoon = 1 KP. problem solved.
1478
Post by: warboss
Reecius wrote:Some of you gents are missing the point about the possibility of a huge squad of IG. I don't know how many of you play Guard, but right now, KP's absolutely hobbles the boys. *snip* I think that would be a brilliant solution to the problem and push guard way up in competetiveness as in objective missions, we are good to go at the moment.
no one is suggesting (least of all me) that guard aren't at a huge disadvantage in KP missions. what those of us that don't like this "solution" are saying is that there are better alternatives than the conscript-sized squads. simply stating that a guard platoon is worth 1 or 2 KP for the command and 1 for the rest of the platoon takes very little space in the book, solves the underlying problem, and still lets us maintain a proportional response to threats (see below).
aka_mythos wrote:Most importantly the variable unit size and kill points allow flexibility. You can choose to use it (to varying degrees) or to play as is. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
yes, but you lose the flexibility of fire proportional to the threat. right now, if a squad of 2 marines (whittled down from 10 by heavy weapons/ordnance) is within move + charge range of you, you can choose how much fire you direct on them based on what is likely to kill them. if you combine the squads, you effectively waste the additional firepower. in the end, the guard army is no better because we just exchanged one problem for another instead of actually solving that first problem.
either way, none of the proposed or wishlisted solutions to KP has been even remotely confirmed. to our knowledge, GW may not consider KP a problem for the guard. we'll just have to wait until a credible rumor/leak comes out.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
GW clearly doesn't want there to be such a clear advantage. If 1 platoon = 1 kp, there are fewer reasons to have multiple platoons. With all the advantages the basic IG platoon is getting, they want us to make some sort of tactical decision in how we organize our forces. If 1 platoon = 1 kp, why would anyone use smaller units, despite some basis in reality pointing to increased effectiveness of smaller autonomous units.
warboss wrote:aka_mythos wrote:Most importantly the variable unit size and kill points allow flexibility. You can choose to use it (to varying degrees) or to play as is. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
yes, but you lose the flexibility of fire proportional to the threat. right now, if a squad of 2 marines (whittled down from 10 by heavy weapons/ordnance) is within move + charge range of you, you can choose how much fire you direct on them based on what is likely to kill them. if you combine the squads, you effectively waste the additional firepower. in the end, the guard army is no better because we just exchanged one problem for another instead of actually solving that first problem.
As I had previously said it all comes down to how you use this ability. I think its stupid for any unit other than a stripped down speed bump platoon to be a single 50 man unit. The advantage of this ability however is in combining small platoons into single units. A 25 man platoon as a unit for example.
4362
Post by: Ozymandias
If you have the choice (a la Combat Squads) then this is not a bad way to do it. Combine into uber-squads for KP Missions (where flexibility isn't as much an issue) and then separate out for non-KP missions. Would be easy, workable, and not as gameable as making the whole platoon one KP (where you can hide a squad and deny your opponent the KP).
3933
Post by: Kingsley
Necros wrote:All they gotta do is make it 1 platoon = 1 KP. problem solved.
If they still got to deploy separately, that would break the army. It'd be just as bad as it is currently, but in the opposite direction.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
Seems to me the uber-squads would pretty much make an attached Sister with the Book of Fearlessness mandatory.
5212
Post by: Gitzbitah
Anyone who faced Imperial Guard playing under the 'Ard Boyz rules in a KP mission can tell you just how broken 1 KP per platoon is. A single placeholder squad sitting on the opposite side of the board from the main force of 3 squads means that you will rarely be able to pick up a KP from a guard player. Unless of course you can threaten the opponent's entire backfield in 5 turns. I fought against such an army in the preliminaries and only killing tanks allowed me to get any KP at all.
10011
Post by: king-newmic
wow... i dont know about you guys but im blown away by the 10 man boxes...66 bucks w/o tax just to get enough troopers to feild a single basic troop choice...tsk tsk sad day.
459
Post by: Hellfury
Fetterkey wrote:Necros wrote:All they gotta do is make it 1 platoon = 1 KP. problem solved.
If they still got to deploy separately, that would break the army. It'd be just as bad as it is currently, but in the opposite direction.
Exactly. IG would go from being rejects in the special Olympiads to uber powerful in KP. Its not as simple as some may think it is.
Here is one scenario that is incredibly likely to be faced.
Lots of IG infantry behind cover. Each unit does not give up KP but only the platoon, so if there is one man left in the platoon, it gives up no KP. Yeah, whether they are "merely IG" or not, 4+ cover saves make IG incredibly hard to ferret out.
It wasn't balanced at all in ard boyz and it wouldn't be balanced now.
As far as people saying that taking platoons as a single unit is silly, you obviously aren't thinking about it very closely. You don't have to take a full platoon to be effective. I am not saying lay out 65 dudes in a platoon, but even that is a nasty possibility when that stupid platoon is sitting on a objective laughing their asses off.
I am saying that 3-4 platoons of varying sizes kitted out to specific roles taken as a single unit has the great potential to be quite powerful.
Mark my words, you will see this develop to happen quite often.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
That's exactly what I've been trying to say. Thanks Hellfury.
This ability is an added level of flexibility but it is a different flexibility than what we previously had.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Necros wrote:All they gotta do is make it 1 platoon = 1 KP. problem solved.
As the others say, this too far of a correction.
But 1 KP for each squishy little Command squad and 1 KP for the rest of the platoon wouldn't be a bad split.
4351
Post by: ubermosher
BrookM wrote:Maybe that Lukas Bastogne chap will be the drop trooper guy you need to take for all your Valkyrie fetishism.
Considering the 101st Airborne Division's association with the town of Bastogne, it sounds more than likely that he's the special character that gives deep strike to the army.
666
Post by: Necros
ok maybe not 1 pt per platoon, but 1 pt per squad is also just stupid. I've been lucky I guess, I haven't gotten any KP missions yet but it's only a matter of time till luck runs out. I've mostly just been playing Apocalypse and only a handful of normal games with my CSMs a few months back.
If it's 1 pt per squad I will just end up using as few men with as few options as possible to get my obligatory 2 troops 1 hq, and then fill up on tanks. Maybe since we get 817 different tanks now, that's what GW wants us to do.
459
Post by: Hellfury
In fact, I would go so far as too say that the only army that could take care of such numbers with any sort of ease is ironically enough, necrons.
Why? Two words:
Nightmare Shroud
I am sure all you IG players recall 4th ed SM and their annoying "fear of the darkness" psychic power. Well this is the same thing except it isn't quite as nasty as FotD modifying your leadership.
At least with the SM power IG had a chance to defy the psychic power with a GK using a hood. But since this is a necron ability, you simply take your morale test regardless if you are locked in assault or not.
If this rumour about being able to combines squads in a single platoon to equal a single unit is true, I can pretty much guarantee that the incredibly underrated Nightmare Shroud power will be removed from the revised necron codex.
2050
Post by: Anung Un Rama
If I read it right, you choose it when you deploy the unit, which means at this point you already know what kind of mission you will play. Sounds to me like a pretty good compromise, especially if you can use some of those new über-platoon drills in a 30-50 man unit.
459
Post by: Hellfury
JohnHwangDD wrote:Necros wrote:All they gotta do is make it 1 platoon = 1 KP. problem solved.
As the others say, this too far of a correction.
But 1 KP for each squishy little Command squad and 1 KP for the rest of the platoon wouldn't be a bad split.
Of course it would be bad.
Lets see. A normal platoon is rumoured to consist of:
Imperial Guard Platoons
Platoons will supposedly be structured as follows:
1 command squad
Plus up to 5 of the following taking into account specific limitations -
2 - 5 infantry squads
0 - 5 heavy weapons squads (this is suspected to be a typo)
0 - 2 special weapons squads
0 - 1 conscript squad
The entire platoon with all these squads will only take one Troops selection in the FOC.
so potentially 8-13 squads giving up a single KP, which doesn't even include the possibility of taking other rumoured units that might possibly be attached to a platoon like sentinels and such.
Sorry, but that idea is made up of just as much pure fail as is '1 platoon = 1KP' idea.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
@Hellfury: I believe that the Platoon structure was clarified to be 1 command + up to 5 (6?) non-command squads. So it'd be a cap of 5 or 6 squads total for 2 KP.
As I understand it:
1 Command
2 infantry
0-3 of any of the following:
- infantry (no limit)
- Vet (1 max)
- HWS (2 max)
- SWS (2 max)
- conscript (1 max)
Not 8 to 13.
5344
Post by: Shep
BoxANT wrote:Argh, the KP issue would be so easy to fix!
Just make it so normal guard infantry squads (non platoon command squads) do not give up KPs!
That would bring IG forces more in line with the average KPs in most armies...
So I could have 30 scoring units in my army that don't give up a single kp? As a guard player it sounds good. From a game design perspective, it sounds like a MASSIVE over-correction, and quite abusive. Rememeber that KPs serve to counter-balance the other missions.
Fetterkey wrote:50-man squads would be horrible, but not thanks to "wasted lasguns." One failed pinning check would lock up five times the amount it usually does.
Sounds like you are planning to overbuild your platoons. At 40 points per 10, 4 squads would be 160 sans weapons, lets spend about 90 points on weapons and we have a 250 point unit. Not all that large at all. You didn't build your guard army to win with platoons did you? They are troops choices, and GW has decided what troops are for. And its not killing enemy units.
warboss wrote:i don't really see any real benefit having all the different squads in a platoon fighting as one. you'll almost never be able to concentrate all those guns on one target (probably half your guys will only fire once due to rapid fire and that's only IF you didn't move). also, as stated earlier, you'll now have 5x the points sucked up in a lucky assault that makes it to your lines or cowering due to a single unlucky pinning role; that's alot of squads that won't be shooting the next turn compared to the one currently. all bumping up the # of models in a guard "unit" does is delay the inevitable: losing an assault. rarely will the extra guardsmen actually win the CC; instead, they'll just be a big block of guys that aren't shooting and are blocking your firing lanes due to CC for the units that can. i hope this isn't GW's solution as all it does is trade one glaring deficiency for another.
I'd rather have them say that you have to deploy the platoon as one unit and that someone from each squad has to be within a certain distance of the command squad if not equiped with a vox. depending on if the junior officer (or whatever they'll be called) is independent, the command squad can give up one or two KP and the rest of the platoon another. that would actually help the KP situation and still maintain an IG flavor to the solution. will it happen? doubt it. all we can do for now is wait until may and just insist that opponents actually roll for mission types instead of just saying "lets do KP!". (it happens at my FLGS)
Like I said before. You didn't take 55 guys in the platoon did you? If so, that platoon probably shouldn't form up. If orders are limited to the number of command squads you have, then 25-35 man platoons will be far more common. I'm guessing that competitive guard armies will be relying on mass armor or 3x10 ogryn walls to win. Forming your 3 mid sized platoons into single units and then losing one to assault will probably be a yawn inducing moment, considering that it would only happen in annihilation where scoring is meaningless. It's likely the platoons will be protected very well in annihilation missions just based on what low priority targets they'll be.
Fetterkey wrote:Why would this fabled 50-man merged unit even be good? A 35 point Rhino could then tank shock, get lucky, and rout 200+ points worth of enemy. A single sniper could tie up your unit for a turn with a failed pinning check. Ordnance weapons, especially ordnance barrages, would have a field day.
How is that different than tank shocking a power fist equipped space marine unit. Your big platoon will have a commissar right? Probably will be good leadership at that point. If your list was built with an emphasis on elites and heavy support, then any ordnance blast that hits your large troop unit in a game of annihilation would make you smile. Being pinned does not equal a kill point, and said ordnance will need to kill 12 models to trigger what will likely be a leadership 9 commissar test, probably with a flag re-roll. And then your 5 heavy support tanks/stormtroopers/ogryns unload, unscathed by the barrage mercilessly hitting your unimportant unit.
If officers were not independent characters, and platoons had an option to form as one (either in deployment or from a special order from an officer) that solves the problem. guard will have a higher than average toll of KP, but will benefit greatly from a mission that does not require ANY maneuvering, and once the guard player has eliminated any serious anti-armor threats, then you can scratch any armor 14 vehicle off the list of 'scoreable' kill points. This solution also keeps the balance of more scoring units equals more disadvantage in annihilation.
Also, I'm sure I am going to catch flak from the infantry-centric guard crowd. A crowd I'm in, and a crowd that is very cool. I'm not saying I'm happy to see this, but I'm predicting an end to just spending 1750 on infantry/command/heavy platoons. GWs pattern of late has been to marginalize troops to an extent, while adding superior elites and heavy support. I am quite sure that guard is getting more elite, and that the salt of the earth common foot soldier will for the most part retire from the field. It will speed up guard games at tourneys, and it will be fun for people that want a more narrative friendly, fast paced, game with their guard. And I'm also sure that casual gaming with maxed platoons will still be available for non-competitive gaming. Which is especially great for story-line campaigns and longer gaming periods. I'll certainly be glad I own 200 painted vostroyans. I'm just predicting I won't ever use more than 100 of them in a tourney army.
179
Post by: Glaive Company CO
I have to admit that the sound of merging a unit is pretty scary to me. In my experience it would be pretty easy for a small unit of assault marines to wipe out any size unit of guard with the sweeping Initiative roll at the end. and now that the FAQ has our commissars making us count as fearless the units that contain them may not run but will lose twice as many models per assault phase.
I still wrack my brain trying to imagine a good way to fix KP's for guard and I just don't know. I do believe that there should be a punishment for our attrition playstyle. Like Zap Branigan sending wave after wave of guardsmen to their deaths just to win the day against a smaller more elite force. But, that would only make sense in more of a campaign setting. in a one-off game it just doesn't make sense for it to matter how much materiel is consumed to win.
I think the problem lies in the KP rules themselves.
There is a unit of soft, squishy mongoloids wielding weapons slightly less deadly than easy bake ovens
Opposing them is the greatest warmachine in the universe that is more proficient at driving and using it's weapons when the crew is unconscious than any Imperial Guard unit attempting to match it.
GW has already decided that these units are not of equal value which is why one of them is 60 points and the other is 250 points. Why in the hell are these two units worth an equal amount of KP's!?
2776
Post by: Reecius
Thanks Shep and Hellfury, you guys said everything I was going to add for me.
179
Post by: Glaive Company CO
...more important than any of that though is the fact that we will need a FAQ after our codex is released and since it seems to take quite a while before we get FAQ's I propose we start working on it now.
Page 24 section "Orders"
When a unit uses the 'cover fire' order and the unit hit must take a pinning test or suffer twice the wounds does that mean that units that always pass pinning tests always take the extra wounds or do they still take the test and just ignore the fact that that order was used?
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Glaive Company CO wrote:Why in the hell are these two units worth an equal amount of KP's!?
Because Alessio's head starts to hurt when he counts numbers higher than 8?
Because people claim that VP's were confusing and complicated (but yet thse same people can make an army list...)?
Because this game is supposed to be quick and friendly and for casual games whereas tournament gamers are evil people who secretly wish death on everyone?
Who knows!!??!!
But as long as a 10-man unit of Chosen is worth as much as a min-sized units of Grots, 40K will have this problem. Giving Guard the option of mushing all their units together into single blobs of men will not fix this problem, it will only further highlight it.
BYE
459
Post by: Hellfury
Glaive Company CO wrote:I think the problem lies in the KP rules themselves.
No truer words have been spoken in this thread.
3933
Post by: Kingsley
Shep, I disagree with your theories in general and think that the basic IG trooper is going to be more of a factor than ever. To be fair, though, my local group plays VPs, not KPs, so we don't care about playing/building lists in accordance with a rule that is quite frankly broken.
666
Post by: Necros
I think it's because no one at GW played guard so they didn't know that KPs were broken. I mean, didn't they have to hire some new kid to do the codex?
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
You are such a fething bore Shummy. This isn't about rules and overpowering and all that other crap. Pay attention.
Yes, clearly. Because you've never made that claim before. Especially in reference to carnifexes.
I'm actually not suggesting that they're going to overpower it. What I'm suggesting is that their biggest new plastic kit will be made available to as many units as possible so that people can buy lots of them if they want them, just like Tyranid players were suddenly allowed to buy loads of Carnifexes and use them all at once/Dragons all at once/Stegadons all at once.
Sorry, I think I let our previous arguments color how I read this. Though I still believe that your plastic conspiracy is an unneeded angle here. It's not like they were going to make it out of anything else, so you could just say "New hyped kit gets to be used a lot". Considering its a transport tank I'm really fairly certain it has little to do with the urge to sell models as much as its the fact that you can take tons of any transport tank. Five land raiders, five battlewagons, a billion chimeras, two billion wave serpents, enough rhinos to fill an ocean, etc. The carnifex is the tyranids big convertible plastic model, they don't get tanks. It is their big tank, it's also uneconomical to make it out of metal given the large number of optional parts (metal models rarely have a lot of options due to material cost and inevitable waste). I just think your finding conspiracy in coincidence (plastic model and high use) and logical pairing (plastic model and tank).
Because people claim that VP's were confusing and complicated (but yet thse same people can make an army list...)?
They were confusing and complicated, and they were really really easy to cheat your opponent with. I don't mean denying VPs I mean lying about point totals and upgrade costs. It required immense scrutiny of army lists to make sure people were on the level (even if they werent cheating it was pretty easy to make mistakes, I've done it before). A slow and complicated system got replaced by a simple, fast, and unbalanced one. It's kind of a suck tradeoff, I'm still betting that there will be something somewhere that helps IG deal with kill points. We still don't have the book and I prefer to be optimistic. As it is all previous fifth edition codexes have good ways of dealing with KPs.
3933
Post by: Kingsley
It's not just Guard that KPs are broken for. Consider, for example, the KP advantage granted by Nob Bikers...
1406
Post by: Janthkin
ShumaGorath wrote:Sorry, I think I let our previous arguments color how I read this. Though I still believe that your plastic conspiracy is an unneeded angle here. It's not like they were going to make it out of anything else, so you could just say "New hyped kit gets to be used a lot". Considering its a transport tank I'm really fairly certain it has little to do with the urge to sell models as much as its the fact that you can take tons of any transport tank. Five land raiders, five battlewagons, a billion chimeras, two billion wave serpents, enough rhinos to fill an ocean, etc. The carnifex is the tyranids big convertible plastic model, they don't get tanks. It is their big tank, it's also uneconomical to make it out of metal given the large number of optional parts (metal models rarely have a lot of options due to material cost and inevitable waste).
I just think your finding conspiracy in coincidence (plastic model and high use) and logical pairing (plastic model and tank).
See: Hive Tyrant. Metal model (plastic accessories), and only 2/army. I personally think HBMC is right here. Making a plastic kit, particularly one as complex as a tank, costs GW a pretty fair chunk of change. They have every reason to make sure it is well-received and heavily purchased, and that includes making it as widely available in the army list as possible, and giving it rules that are going to incentivize its use. To oversimplify: if you're going to create a supply of something new, you'd do well to create as large a demand as possible. When you control the rules, you can make that demand fairly compelling. ShumaGorath wrote:HBMC wrote:Because people claim that VP's were confusing and complicated (but yet thse same people can make an army list...)?
They were confusing and complicated, and they were really really easy to cheat your opponent with. I don't mean denying VPs I mean lying about point totals and upgrade costs. It required immense scrutiny of army lists to make sure people were on the level (even if they werent cheating it was pretty easy to make mistakes, I've done it before). A slow and complicated system got replaced by a simple, fast, and unbalanced one. It's kind of a suck tradeoff, I'm still betting that there will be something somewhere that helps IG deal with kill points. We still don't have the book and I prefer to be optimistic. As it is all previous fifth edition codexes have good ways of dealing with KPs.
If someone is willing to cheat, they're just as likely to do it during list creation (which uses the SAME VP system) as they are during post-battle wrap-up. Also, I'll point you at Fetterkey's post: Nob Bikers aren't a "good way of dealing with KPs" - they're representative of the other side of the problem.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
Fetterkey wrote:It's not just Guard that KPs are broken for. Consider, for example, the KP advantage granted by Nob Bikers...
Nob bikers shouldn't exist and were an idiotic oversight, I don't think you can use that to color the IGs killpoint issues. No army looks good next to them. Nob bikers are broken within the game system. Period. They would be just as good in the previous editions VP rules considering if you've killed both squads you've wiped out their army anyway. They are a basket full of eggs. A basket that is going to kill you really really hard and is basically indestructible.
2776
Post by: Reecius
Dark Eldar get hosed with KP's too, but IG get it right up the shoot with no lube.
Guard start with 10 KP's, every other amry starts with 3. That is stupid beyond stupidity.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
I personally think HBMC is right here. Making a plastic kit, particularly one as complex as a tank, costs GW a pretty fair chunk of change. They have every reason to make sure it is well-received and heavily purchased, and that includes making it as widely available in the army list as possible, and giving it rules that are going to incentivize its use.
Making a metal tank would cost more, the mold would be cheaper but the actual cost of materials (A tank has a hell of a lot more mass than a hive tyrants torso and legs and metal is far more expensive than plastic). Not to mention the weight of the tank, AND THE FACT THAT ITS ON A GOD DAMN FLYING BASE preclude the use of metal.
Seriously, when was the last time they made an all metal tank?
4362
Post by: Ozymandias
Steam Tank?
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
ShumaGorath wrote:Seriously, when was the last time they made an all metal tank?
Ozymandias wrote:Steam Tank?
Yup. I've even got one.
Though it doesn't come with a flying base...
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
Ozymandias wrote:Steam Tank?
Yeah, didn't think of that one. Ok, so we've got steam tank vs every other tank they've made in the last decade.
Though it doesn't come with a flying base...
Just imagine the horrors winged tyrants on flying bases pose. The steam tank is a third the size of the valk.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
ShumaGorath wrote:Making a metal tank would cost more, the mold would be cheaper but the actual cost of materials (A tank has a hell of a lot more mass than a hive tyrants torso and legs and metal is far more expensive than plastic). Not to mention the weight of the tank, AND THE FACT THAT ITS ON A GOD DAMN FLYING BASE preclude the use of metal.
Seriously, when was the last time they made an all metal tank?
Massive Red Herring here Shummy. It's got nothing to do with metal tanks and you damn well know it, especially given that GW is moving away from metal and towards plastic. As I said, and Janthink said, it is in their best interests to make it possible for players to purchase multiples of their newest kits. Plastic kits aren't cheap, so if they can sell a lot of them, they make their money back quicker, so they make them available in more places than they previously were ('Fex, Stegadon), or simply allow lots of units to take them if its a new unit (Valk). Hell, they've even gone and invented a new unit just to allow even more Valks in an army (the Vendetta). It just wouldn't make sense for them to go out of their way to make a completely new unit in plastic and not allow people to buy lots of it. " Guess what kids - we've got a great plastic Stegadon to replace the old icky metal one. It's easy to put together, convert, looks great and is fun to use! BUT YOU CAN ONLY EVER HAVE ONE! RAR!!!!" There's no conspiracy theory, it's a company wanting to open up as many avenues of sale as possible, and by allowing anyone to use it, they open up those avenues. How is this a bad thing? BYE
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
ShumaGorath wrote:Just imagine the horrors winged tyrants on flying bases pose.
My buddy has one. If you want to give him a good shock, pick it up by the dragon wings...
ShumaGorath wrote:The steam tank is a third the size of the valk.
Yeah, but the Stank wall thicknesses are unbelievable. I think there are sections a full half-inch thick.
3933
Post by: Kingsley
ShumaGorath wrote:Fetterkey wrote:It's not just Guard that KPs are broken for. Consider, for example, the KP advantage granted by Nob Bikers...
Nob bikers shouldn't exist and were an idiotic oversight, I don't think you can use that to color the IGs killpoint issues. No army looks good next to them. Nob bikers are broken within the game system. Period. They would be just as good in the previous editions VP rules considering if you've killed both squads you've wiped out their army anyway. They are a basket full of eggs. A basket that is going to kill you really really hard and is basically indestructible.
IMO Nob Bikers would be tier two at best without KPs, but that's a different story entirely. It seems intuitively obvious that KPs are broken; there's simply no reason to ascribe equal values to unequal units, other than some arbitrary fear of math or MSU lists. Even without the extreme cases of Guard or Nob Bikers, why should killing a Tactical Squad count the same as a Combat Squad? KPs simply don't make sense, and though I can see what the designers were trying to go for when they included them, I feel that it's clear they were far from the mark.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
Massive Red Herring here Shummy. It's got nothing to do with metal tanks and you damn well know it.
Or plastic. Your pot kettle is blacking.
As I said, and Janthink said, it is in their best interests to make it possible for players to purchase multiples of their newest kits.
Yes, it is also in their best interests to sell any model. They make the same amount on a chimera that they do on a valk, probably more given materials. It doesn't make business sense to recoup sunk cost at the cost of existing income. The valkyrie represents an investment in the quality of the IG line as a whole, and its just one part of that whole.
Plastic kits aren't cheap, so if they can sell a lot of them, they make their money back quicker, so they make them available in more places than they previously were ('Fex, Stegadon), or simply allow lots of units to take them if its a new unit (Valk).
You're awful at business. They don't care about making money back on sunk costs within a pre existing line by selling tons of a single model. Sunk costs are sunk costs, they are investments. Returning investments specifically on sunk costs are only important when the line itself is alone or an integral part. Phones need to recoup development, movies need to recoup cost, a store needs to recoup the cost of computer investment. The valkyrie is a single investment within the line of imperial guard within the line of 40k. It is an expense, but it is one that will be recouped in the short term by overall game sales, and in the longrun will improve sales by improving scope and sales of the IG army and 40k as a game. Where the cash comes from is unimportant, and a cool model kit makes money for the hobby as a whole. Model releases don't exist in a vacuum, how many space marine terminators has the land raider sold? How many tyranid armies has the carnifex sold?
Hell, they've even gone and invented a new unit just to allow even more Valks in an army (the Vendetta).
Indeed, they also made a million new leman russes. The line is expanding, the valk isn't the lynchpin of their sales, and none of this is why they are plastic.
There's no conspiracy theory, it's a company wanting to open up as many avenues of sale as possible, and by allowing anyone to use it, they open up those avenues. How is this a bad thing?
Its a conspiracy theory. Your just stating an obvious intent and conclusion to support it. Of course they want to make money, they are a company. Of course the tank is plastic, they expect to sell a lot and it's uneconomical (and physically impossible/impractical) to do it otherwise. Thats not why its plastic. And thats not why they are letting people use many of them. They are letting people use many of them because its a transport vehicle. It has a variant because it's a simple underslung weapon switch and because every large plastic vehicle kit in the game has some sort of variant already. Redundancy in manufacture allows for easy almost cost free expandability of the line. What you are saying is akin to the fluoride conspiracy. They put fluoride in water because they want more efficient governmental control. Of course they do. Thats not why they put fluoride in the water. All transports can be used in spades. All (but the steam tank) tank kits are plastic. A metal flying tank would be silly and stupid. A transport tank that is severely limited would be silly and stupid. You're connecting dots that don't make a picture.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
I'm done arguing with you. Your pointless and crazy need to be contrary to everything I ever say, regardless of topic, your constant barbs, your general attitude towards everyone, you inability to ever change your mind on any topic and your balls to the wall bullshittery in every god damned fething topic has made this place LESS FUN to post at.
Eat s#it and die you God-damned waste of mother fething space. I'm DONE.
BYE
4042
Post by: Da Boss
I know I shouldn't say this, but H.B.M.C., now you must know how JohnHwangDD felt when he put you on ignore.
9003
Post by: AlfredTheStrange
actualy the steam tank will soon be plastic, or already is. unless im totaly wrong.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm done arguing with you. Your pointless and crazy need to be contrary to everything I ever say, regardless of topic, your constant barbs, your general attitude towards everyone, you inability to ever change your mind on any topic and your balls to the wall bullshittery in every god damned fething topic has made this place LESS FUN to post at.
Eat s#it and die you God-damned waste of mother fething space. I'm DONE.
BYE
Yes, pointless crazy and contrary. I'm not an admitted anti GW conspiracy theorist that uses every new model and line release to further enhance my own non sensical viewpoints about senseless and idiotic business decisions that never actually happen. Learn economics. Learn business. Come back when you've done that. But then you never will, you're already stuck thirty miles up your own and you just plug your ears and cry every time someone disagrees with you. As for making it less fun to post? Welcome to everyone else's world when you show up.
5344
Post by: Shep
Glaive Company CO wrote:I think the problem lies in the KP rules themselves.
I disagree, strongly.
Glaive Company CO wrote:There is a unit of soft, squishy mongoloids wielding weapons slightly less deadly than easy bake ovens
Opposing them is the greatest warmachine in the universe that is more proficient at driving and using it's weapons when the crew is unconscious than any Imperial Guard unit attempting to match it.
GW has already decided that these units are not of equal value which is why one of them is 60 points and the other is 250 points. Why in the hell are these two units worth an equal amount of KP's!?
Ahh but Glaive, GW has decided that they ARE of equal value. You can take your superman hero soldiers and gloriously stand them atop the objective, and at the bottom of the turn i'll skulk my mongoloids over to within 3" of that objective. My 60 points says that your 250 isn't scoring anymore.
Until objective games give any sort of weight at all to cost of unit, kill points will be a useful balancing tool. If objectives couldn't be claimed by a single model, or blocked by a single model, or if the determination of whether an objective were claimed or not had anything to do with the cost of a unit, then you'd have a point.
But as it stands now, kill points offer you a choice. A good game is a "series of interesting choices". Right now any army in the game can have at least 17 units with which to secure and contest objectives. Without kill points there would be no choice. Fill it all out. Monat crisis suits, single speeders, minimum sized units spammed to oblivion. But now you have a difficult choice. Do you have an excellent army in objective games, while having a very difficult time in annihilation games? Or do you make some kind of comprimise?
I admit that the current guard codex does not allow for choice. but that will change in 2 months.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
The current Guard codex allows for 1-KP Troops choices for a 4-KP minimum using Grenadiers.
11729
Post by: Gestalt
Glaive Company CO wrote:When a unit uses the 'cover fire' order and the unit hit must take a pinning test or suffer twice the wounds does that mean that units that always pass pinning tests always take the extra wounds or do they still take the test and just ignore the fact that that order was used?
I cant tell if this is sarcasm or I missed something about orders. :/
This whole combining a platoon into one unit makes no sense. It seems more like someone making a bad wishlist and passing it off as rumor. I thought the consensus was GW didnt even think KP was an issue so it probably wont be fixed. Its a KP issue, not a guard issue.
Russes costing more may be OK with more armor and rules. The basic russ/demolisher doesnt gain much, but the versions with all heavy weapons could be fun with the rumor they move D6 and fire all. And it depends on the cost of upgrades too, we currently pay 5 for extra armor, they could do something stupid like put it at 15 like marines.
4977
Post by: jp400
FFS ShumaGorath, DROP IT ALREADY!
Why the feth do you constantly go out of your way to start arguments with HBMC and drag countless topics into god damn flamefests? If you dont like what he has to say, dont fething say anything for ONCE IN YOUR DAMN LIFE!
Im sure im not the only one sick and tired of you ruining threads by constantly picking fights.
Will you be man enough to take this with a grain of salt and move on? No you wont. In true kiddy form you will post something that I could care less about because your EGO refuses to let you go without haveing the last fething word.
Way to kill yet another thread.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
@jp400: It takes 2 to fight, so you should chastise BM just as harshly for his choice to continue.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
jp400: Awww c'mon. H.B.M.C. used to do the EXACT SAME THING to JohnHwangDD for aaaaages. I find this pretty amusing. And after 29 pages of discussion, surely it's time for a flamefest?
4977
Post by: jp400
Why?
He isnt the one that goes out of his way to start the fight in the first place.
Wait, why do I care what you of all people say? Your just as bad on these forums.
Figures you would side with the troll. lol.
And Im done and moveing on.
Have a Nice day.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
I dunno, I find H.B.M.C., JHDD and Shuma to be entertaining in all kinds of different ways. As long as the exchange is relatively brief (like not more than 3 pages) reading the back and forth is light entertainment for me.
4977
Post by: jp400
Da Boss,
I agree, but when it happens on every thread it starts to get really old really fast ya know?
4042
Post by: Da Boss
Maybe I haven't been browsing the same threads as you. Although I even enjoyed the Stelek wars of times past. And basically all the other drama that goes on here. Adds a little spice to my rumour mongering.
All I need now is for Stonefox to show up and be scathing about gamers in a hilarious way and Triggerbaby to come out with something unexpectadly hilarious and I'd be a happy bunny.
(I'm completely off topic right now. Better say something about Guard.)
I cannot believe GW don't consider KP an issue. It's so obviously the biggest single issue influencing army design in 5th.
4977
Post by: jp400
LoL....
Yes Back on Topic... we shall take the higher road and try shall we?
Agreed, Kp is the biggest design flaw in 5th. Im hopeing that the rumor that they didnt fix it holds no base in fact.
2401
Post by: Recklessfable
Isn't it about bloody time the damned thing was leaked? I'm actually worried about the release schedule since Orks, Chaos, etc all had three months out in the wild before "release".
666
Post by: Necros
Da Boss wrote:And after 29 pages of discussion, surely it's time for a flamefest?
29 pages is good, isn't it usually by page 5 or so?
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
jp400 wrote:Why?
He isnt the one that goes out of his way to start the fight in the first place.
Wait, why do I care what you of all people say? Your just as bad on these forums.
Figures you would side with the troll. lol.
And Im done and moveing on.
Have a Nice day.
The big mans sycophant shows up to shout at everyone after he runs home. I start fights with (disagree with him, I guess its a fight whenever someone says the guy on the soapbox handing out pamphlets is wrong) him because he blankly states incorrect things as truth. That sticks in my craw.
11225
Post by: Ciaphas-Cain
Well after donuts and fights... i really think we ought to get back onto the TITLE OF THIS THREAD
What do you guys think the large number of tank choices will do to guard armies?
Will it be wild for a few months then settle down to about 2-3 choices that are unanimously effective, Or will we have a plethora of choice, all of which are competitive.
BTW-anyone notice that the priest actually has a save now!!!!! It means nothing because he's still going to be a bad choice but, well i wont have to pay that extra 5 points to give him a save!
11
Post by: ph34r
ShumaGorath wrote:The big mans sycophant shows up to shout at everyone after he runs home. I start fights with (disagree with him, I guess its a fight whenever someone says the guy on the soapbox handing out pamphlets is wrong) him because he blankly states incorrect things as truth. That sticks in my craw.
Yes, damn him for suggesting that it would be in GW's best interests to let you use many of a new unit. Obviously you are the head of GW, and only YOU know why GW does what it does. And why not leave it be and have everyone use chimeras? Other than the fact that the chimera is a tired old model, costs less than the Valkyrie, and everyone already has chimeras, there is no reason for GW to make Valkyries more available. And damn all those people that think you are an idiot, they are just trying to suck up to HBMC and don't have opinions of their own. I guess you have this discussion pretty much wrapped up, congrats!
11729
Post by: Gestalt
Lets argue about something that really cant be confirmed except by GW itself and then argue about arguing that.
Anyway, some of the tanks dont seem like much more than gimmicks to me unless the costs are different.
Is anyone else worried about traffic jams with valkries? Its bad enough to run mechanized and a Valk has a bigger footprint than a chimera.
9598
Post by: Quintinus
ShumaGorath wrote: he blankly states incorrect things as truth. That sticks in my craw.
Now normally I avoid drama but I have to defend HBMC in this case.
There was absolutely no reason in the entire world to allow 6 Carnifexes (Carnifices? Carnifii?) into a Tyranid list, except for the fact that it would make them money.
Contrary to what most of us would like to think, Gee-Dubya is not stupid. Not even close. Who's the first one to go out and buy a ^&4* load of stuff? The power gamers.
So, they release models with very good rules, and the ability to take a lot of them. It's not rocket science, it's something that even a 6th grader with even a rudimentary grasp of business could figure out.
Make stuff with good rules, and allow a lot of them, and that's a recipe for success, aka $$$.
In contrast, there's little reason to give really good rules to something like Guardsmen who've probably made up their costs already.
So, in conclusion, if Valkyries have good rules, and you can take a lot of them, well, you're going to make big $$$.
-Vlad
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
Vladsimpaler wrote:ShumaGorath wrote: he blankly states incorrect things as truth. That sticks in my craw.
Now normally I avoid drama but I have to defend HBMC in this case. There was absolutely no reason in the entire world to allow 6 Carnifexes (Carnifices? Carnifii?) into a Tyranid list, except for the fact that it would make them money. Contrary to what most of us would like to think, Gee-Dubya is not stupid. Not even close. Who's the first one to go out and buy a ^&4* load of stuff? The power gamers. So, they release models with very good rules, and the ability to take a lot of them. It's not rocket science, it's something that even a 6th grader with even a rudimentary grasp of business could figure out. Make stuff with good rules, and allow a lot of them, and that's a recipe for success, aka $$$. In contrast, there's little reason to give really good rules to something like Guardsmen who've probably made up their costs already. So, in conclusion, if Valkyries have good rules, and you can take a lot of them, well, you're going to make big $$$. -Vlad
Except they are releasing a dozen other models with it. The carnifex was released as a wave. Why did everything else in that book suck? Where are all the lovely biovores? All those raveners? Broodlords? Zoanthropes? What's the point of a new warrior kit when no one needs synapse? Sorry but no, overpowering the carnifex was bad for business and harmed the metagame. It also harmed the overall sales of all other tyranid models. I know people that quit the army (I quit playing tyranids) because of crap like that. Besides, that wasn't his point. His point was that it was a brand spanking new plastic kit, and because of the mold cost they decided to allow IG forces to take a million of them. It doesn't make sense. If someone has 200 dollars to spend on an army what difference does it make if he spends it buying six valks or 2 russes, a valk a chimera and some heavy weapons teams? Its the same expenditure. Its the same amount of money. An even and balanced game system sells more models. You want to know why people can take six valks? It's pretty obvious. Here I'll help you. How many landraiders can you take? How many devilfish can you take? How many battlewagons can you take? How many rhinos can you take? How many drop pods can you take? How many Truks can you take? How many raiders can you take? How many chimera can you take? How many wave serpants can you take? It's a transport. You can take a lot of every single transport in the game.
So, they release models with very good rules, and the ability to take a lot of them. It's not rocket science, it's something that even a 6th grader with even a rudimentary grasp of business could figure out.
A five year old will tell you that heavy things fall faster. Just because its the simplest answer doesn't make it correct.
Yes, damn him for suggesting that it would be in GW's best interests to let you use many of a new unit. Obviously you are the head of GW, and only YOU know why GW does what it does. And why not leave it be and have everyone use chimeras? Other than the fact that the chimera is a tired old model, costs less than the Valkyrie, and everyone already has chimeras, there is no reason for GW to make Valkyries more available. And damn all those people that think you are an idiot, they are just trying to suck up to HBMC and don't have opinions of their own. I guess you have this discussion pretty much wrapped up, congrats!
Its in their interest not to be flippant and random with rulings and points costs. Its in their interest not to be stupid with force organization. Its in their interest to create a sustainable and enjoyable game that doesn't fall into a series of powergamers with identical armies. Sorry, but I'm not an idiot. I just don't point my finger and cry evil business every time a new model release comes out. It's not going to be heavily limited because its not a main battle tank or a small niche unit. Its a basic troop transport. Get the hell over yourselves.
3844
Post by: Dave47
I think you guys are talking past each other.
ShumaGorath's point seems to be that GW wouldn't intentionally overpower a unit just to sell a lot of it, since GW is sophisticated enough to realize that that's actually a bad business decision if looked at from a holistic "health of the game" perspective.
HBMC seems to be saying that the fact that GW decided to release a plastic Valkyrie suggests that the IG Codex allows you to take a lot of them.
I think you're both right. I'm not expecting the Valkyrie to be horribly overpowered. I am expecting that you will have the option to take a lot of them. The decision to release a model in plastic suggests that the sales guys believe it will sell enough to justify the high initial costs of creating a plastic mold.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
Dave47 wrote:I think you guys are talking past each other.
ShumaGorath's point seems to be that GW wouldn't intentionally overpower a unit just to sell a lot of it, since GW is sophisticated enough to realize that that's actually a bad business decision if looked at from a holistic "health of the game" perspective.
HBMC seems to be saying that the fact that GW decided to release a plastic Valkyrie suggests that the IG Codex allows you to take a lot of them.
I think you're both right. I'm not expecting the Valkyrie to be horribly overpowered. I am expecting that you will have the option to take a lot of them. The decision to release a model in plastic suggests that the sales guys believe it will sell enough to justify the high initial costs of creating a plastic mold.
HBMC's post was based off of a bell of lost souls rumor about all guard squads that can take chimeras being able to take valkyries. He was then justifying the use of plastic with that, rather then the fact that a metal model would be impossible. But yeah, that was basically my point. That and the fact that every transport tank in the game can be taken en masse.
2401
Post by: Recklessfable
I'd like to think GW isn't going to release another Thunderfire Cannon in the Valk. More like another Drop Pod. It would totally make sense if the Valk utterly deprecates the Chimera, saleswise.
But then again, these blokes probably though the Thunderfire was brokenly good.
So who knows. They might be planning exactly what HBMC says, but they have at least even odds of screwing it up anyway.
Look at Codex Deamons:
Plague Bearers: Old Metal
Horrors: Old Metal
Bloodletters: New Plastic
Daemonettes: New Plastic
They probably thought 'nettes were broken even though they KNEW they were going to nerf rending. Hell, they were overpriced in 4th edition. Or did they just make the investment just to de-boobify then product line?
11
Post by: ph34r
Its in their interest not to be flippant and random with rulings and points costs. Its in their interest not to be stupid with force organization. Its in their interest to create a sustainable and enjoyable game that doesn't fall into a series of powergamers with identical armies. Sorry, but I'm not an idiot. I just don't point my finger and cry evil business every time a new model release comes out. It's not going to be heavily limited because its not a main battle tank or a small niche unit. Its a basic troop transport.
GW is known to be pretty stupid when it comes to unit costs. Some are terrible, while some are great. Sometimes it's really obvious that they want to push a unit, and other new units don't get pushed. Usually they push the big fancy plastic kits, and let you get tons of them. If the Valkyrie got rules but was still a very expensive model, then GW probably wouldn't bother trying to push it. I'm not crying and saying that GW is being evil, it just makes sense that their latest big thing is able to be used as much as possible.
The Valkyrie isn't just a basic troop transport like the chimera, it is used for all units by very specialized regiments like the elysians, and stormtrooper units only in most guard forces. It isn't some ubiquitous tank like the chimera that every regiment has a million of, and odds are if GW wants you to be able to take them everywhere the fact that it will help their new awesome kit was a big factor. I don't care if GW pushes the valkyrie, I won't be getting any, and I think it would be cool to be able to make an elysian army from the standard codex.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
hey probably thought 'nettes were broken even though they KNEW they were going to nerf rending. Hell, they were overpriced in 4th edition. Or did they just make the investment just to de-boobify then product line?
That one always confused me. The horrors and plaguebearers are much better. They would sell in much higher volumes. Yet they chose to redo the bloodletter and deamonette. I suspect it was to de boobify the line like you say, its a publicly traded company. Honestly though, if they were going to push big important plastic kits to sell a tonne one would think they would choose the obvious and probably high selling popular troop units. The Valkyrie isn't just a basic troop transport like the chimera, it is used for all units by very specialized regiments like the elysians, and stormtrooper units only in most guard forces.
It's pretty damn common. One of, if not the single most common aircraft the IG utilize if I'm not mistaken. It seems rare only because aircraft are so rare in a game about ground combat. It's basically their version of a transport helicopter, it's pretty prevalent in the books and artwork. Besides, the elysians don't get to have a book. The landraider isn't common at all, nor is the battlewagon. But the books are designed to allow for a large number of forces to be represented. If you're army doesn't use any then don't use them. Not all IG regiments have access to ground vehicles, or significant use for them. Not all have snipers. It's about making the army you want to make.
Usually they push the big fancy plastic kits, and let you get tons of them.
Not always. There are a significant number that can't be taken en masse. The ironclad doesn't even have a model yet. Nor did the battlewagon until a short time ago.
If the Valkyrie got rules but was still a very expensive model, then GW probably wouldn't bother trying to push it. I'm not crying and saying that GW is being evil, it just makes sense that their latest big thing is able to be used as much as possible.
If this was some sort of new heavy tank kit or something that would make sense. But seriously. If it was limited it would be the games only transport to be limited in such a way. You guys are using the wrong model to push up your theories. It already has significant and important reasons why it should be numerous and plastic. Game balance and force organization reasons. This isn't a tonne of carnifexes or a million dreadnauts. This is just adding a (really quite) common unit into the book in the numbers it always supposedly existed in.
11
Post by: ph34r
It's pretty damn common. One of, if not the single most common aircraft the IG utilize if I'm not mistaken.
I have only seen the Valkyrie used once in a black library book out of about a dozen, and it was being used by a specialized air assault guard regiment. The lexicanum wiki seems to support me in saying that the valkyrie is "used to ferry Special Forces Infantry units such as Storm Trooper Squads and Drop Troop Regiments such as the Elysian Drop Troops to and from combat zones."
Besides, the elysians don't get to have a book. The landraider isn't common at all, nor is the battlewagon. But the books are designed to allow for a large number of forces to be represented. If you're army doesn't use any then don't use them. Not all IG regiments have access to ground vehicles, or significant use for them. Not all have snipers. It's about making the army you want to make.
Right, I don't think that it would be a good idea to devote a full book to elysians. They're just not that different than standard guard. But as you say here,
Not always. There are a significant number that can't be taken en masse. The ironclad doesn't even have a model yet. Nor did the battlewagon until a short time ago.
Then why not put the valkyrie in last book, where it did not have a model? It would have been just like the battlewagon and ironclad, and I bet you would not be able to take a valkyrie on every unit then. Do you think that they would put the valkyrie in this book without releasing a model for it? Do you really think that the big new model had nothing to do with being able to take them everywhere?
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
have only seen the Valkyrie used once in a black library book out of about a dozen, and it was being used by a specialized air assault guard regiment. The lexicanum wiki seems to support me in saying that the valkyrie is "used to ferry Special Forces Infantry units such as Storm Trooper Squads and Drop Troop Regiments such as the Elysian Drop Troops to and from combat zones."
They are ridiculously common in the IA fluff and in aeronautica imperialis. They are the premiere infantry support vtol craft in the IG. Its going to be very common. As for specialist units, that would make sense. Air transport is much more useful when it comes to moving squads around for covert work.
Besides drop troop regiments can have dozens of such vehicles. And are pretty damn common in every imperial warzone. Every guard force utilizes them, its a combined arms military.
Then why not put the valkyrie in last book, where it did not have a model? It would have been just like the battlewagon and ironclad, and I bet you would not be able to take a valkyrie on every unit then. Do you think that they would put the valkyrie in this book without releasing a model for it? Do you really think that the big new model had nothing to do with being able to take them everywhere?
I do. It wasn't in the last book because it's never been in a book before. The last book honestly didn't have a lot in it. Before that it removed several tanks that were produced and that people owned. During third edition GW had a policy of cutting back on choices. It was trying to move away from the bloat of second edition. With the last few codexes though it looks like they are reversing that stance and are loading the books up with tonnes of everything.
Besides. You can take six ironclads. Where is the ironclad? They are about to release a tonne of new tanks. Where are they all? They pushed the land speeder storm months before it came out for sale (and you can have six, just like all major troop transports). The valk is a big selling point in apocalypse and is a "new face" for the codex, of course its getting hyped. Its the most visible of the new models in the line and its the one that will make the most people buy new armies (which makes them a hell of a lot more money than a few extra transports sold).
4926
Post by: Neil
My plan is, if the Kill Points issue is not resolved in the new Guard codex, I'm not going to build a new Guard army. I'll bulk up my Isengard army instead. Actually I might do that anyhow, War of the Ring looks pretty damn good..
60
Post by: yakface
At this point, this thread has gotten pretty far off-topic from talking about the reference sheet and instead has devolved into an argument about whether or not GW intentionally designs their rules in order to sell their new plastic kits or not.
And at 30 pages, this thread has become pretty much impossible for someone interested in the topic to actually discuss the original topic anyway.
So I'm going to go ahead and lock it.
|
|
