Not hypocritical?

If you play warhammer, your a nerd. You can't justify otherwise.

I see what your saying about the rules, but I've never really had arguments with people over rules. They are pretty clear to me (unlike the mess that is 40k)

Though, I will give you the Skaven Book...*shudder*

Have you checked the length of the WFB FAQ? Hardly clearer than 40k. Lets call things for what they are heh.. I like both games, but the reason I like WFB is not because I enjoy its often unbalanced rules

Both games have things that could be changed for the better but fantasy is in no way easier to read

The last 40k codex that followed the WFB style (in terms of massive amount of character/unit options and customization) was the last edition chaos space marine book.. and it required 20 pages of FAQ

It's a shame all the sacred cows are going to be left alive and kicking with this edition.

First their was rogue trader with it's individually based models. Then came the idea that you could just squish them together into blocks, but still have them fight individually.

Eight editions and 27 years later and we're still stuck there. Even though we know GW has made other rules that don't have this 80s holdover like Warmaster and War of the Ring.

Bring on more of the same I guess... sigh.

@karon: I'm a hobbyist.

If all you want is a simple game with no rules arguments, there's one just for you: it's played with two factions of Tzeentch discs fighting on a multi-colored grid field. It has TLOS and everything. In case you haven't guessed, it's checkers. Enjoy!
When it all comes down to it the hobby is here to provide adults with an excuse to play with toy soldiers. Guilty as charged!

Karon wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:I don't know about the rest of you, but Fantasy 8th is going to be much, much stranger than 7th.

Which is sad, because I REALLY like this edition...

A lot of this seems really unnecessary though... The changes to charging and magic are particularly troubling...

Well, looking forward to picking up the new rulebook though. General's edition FTW!

QFT, I really like this edition. It sounds insane, but I would rather 8th edition come out next year LOL.

Maybe that's just because I barely have tasted 7th edition yet. No, that's not it.

It's because 7th really defined the difference between 40k and fantasy.

8th looks like 40k, but with shittier weapons and magic.

Exactly. I mean, if anything's made 7th ed. crap, it's the newer Armybooks. I'm looking at you, Daemons, Dark Elves, Beastmen and Vampire Counts...

Cryonicleech wrote:I don't know about the rest of you, but Fantasy 8th is going to be much, much stranger than 7th.

Which is sad, because I REALLY like this edition...

A lot of this seems really unnecessary though... The changes to charging and magic are particularly troubling...

Well, looking forward to picking up the new rulebook though. General's edition FTW!

*cough* writing-our-own-7.5th-edition *cough*

Eh, if 8th is the pooptasm it's sounding like, then I finally have no excuse to keep avoiding Infinity

- Salvage

I will be updating the first post here later, but here are the main things in the meantime:

High Elves ignore all the 3 of the same specials 2 of the same rares restrictions as they have the Elite Army special rule.

Heavy cavalry
• Unchanged. Rumour was wrong, heavy cav march as normal.

Determining Spells
• Each lore now has 7 Spells. One Basic Spell and other spells numbered 1 - 6.
• While writing the armylist, you will have to note which lore your magic users will use. You may not wait until you see the enemies forces. - I'm not sure how well that will actually work in practice...
• Next you need to see which casters can have which spells. Roll D6 and see which spell you got, similar to how it is now. Any spell can be swapped for the Basic Spell. If you roll double for a spell you have to re-roll until you have the required number for the wizard level.
• As no two spells from the rulebook Lores can be duplicated in the army (except the Basic Spell), if you want more than 1 wizard to have spells from the same lore you now have a choice to make.

Example: You have 3 wizards you want to use the Lore of Fire. A level 4, a level 3 and a level 1.

Do you give the level 4 wizard 3 spells + the Basic Spell? Or 4 spells and leave the remaining 2 spells plus the Basic Spell for the level 3 wizard? The level 1 wizard has no options other than the Basic Spell in this example, as all the other spells have already been taken.

• There are some exceptions to this way of choosing spells:
Bound spells
Spells the caster knows "naturally", eg Warrior Priests or Khemri Priests
Spells that are not rolled for but bought, i.e. Necromancers.


Flaming Sword(s) of Rhuin: Unit Buff Grants +1 to wound and flaming attacks.

Great weapons can be used in 2 ranks.

Magic Items
• Magic items – 10-20 items in each category.

Dwarfs and Daemons of Chaos do not have access to Common Magic Items. Army book values for magic items override the Rulebook if different.

Nothing there that I can't live with, even though I play every army but Skaven & Ogres. I kinda wish they'd left in the no heavy cav marching. It'd make medium cav (like Dark Riders w/shields) a more useful unit. Oh well, we aren't playing WishHammer.

I'm, well, not liking the "no duplicate spell" thing. Just sounds pointless in most instances, though I guess that's their only way to prevent armies from attempting to spam their super-spells without actually having to think about how to fix it. "Er, hey. I have a problem. See, the Skaven players can potentially cast Plague some three times in a single turn." "My god, you're right!" "Yeah, perhaps we should do something to ch-" "No spell duplications!" "Wait what?" "Thanks for pointing that out. No spell can be duplicated in a list now. Open and shut case."

Grimstonefire wrote:Parry
• The hand weapon & shield combination grants an unmodifiable 6+ Armour Save against everything in combat to the front, except against impact hits and crush them/destroy them attacks. It is not a Ward Save; it is an unmodifiable Armour Save against high strength attacks in combat that would otherwise negate armour entirely. This replaces the +1 to Armour Save gained by fighting with HW & shield.

I know this doesn't make anything better in the empire book, but i have been secretly praying that halberdiers may end being the best choice after the dust settles here. With casualties being taken from the back and with two ranks fighting, and with parry just being this piddly 6+ versus strength 5 and higher... Did halberds just pop over the WS4 swordsman in effectiveness?

Is reality emulating fluff in the lands of the elector counts?

Grimstonefire wrote:
• As no two spells from the rulebook Lores can be duplicated in the army (except the Basic Spell), if you want more than 1 wizard to have spells from the same lore you now have a choice to make.

Minsc wrote:I'm, well, not liking the "no duplicate spell" thing. Just sounds pointless in most instances, though I guess that's their only way to prevent armies from attempting to spam their super-spells without actually having to think about how to fix it. "Er, hey. I have a problem. See, the Skaven players can potentially cast Plague some three times in a single turn." "My god, you're right!" "Yeah, perhaps we should do something to ch-" "No spell duplications!" "Wait what?" "Thanks for pointing that out. No spell can be duplicated in a list now. Open and shut case."

Minsc, check the bolded part. If that part's true, Skaven and other books with unique Lores can still spam the same spell.

I had to edit out the Parry rule, it seems I misunderstood. It may be a stackable combat ward save.

Grimstonefire wrote:I had to edit out the Parry rule, it seems I misunderstood. It may be a stackable combat ward save.

And the army based off the Landsnceht goes back to being gladiator-movie rejects...

This is all really pointless until the rulebook actually comes out, but great fun nonetheless. Thank you all for letting me vent.

Great weapons can be used in 2 ranks.

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!

Bestigors! Be reborn!

Parry
The hand weapon & shield combination grants a 6+ Ward Save in combat to the front only. It provides no benefit if you are attacked in the flank or rear and does not work against impact hits and crush them/destroy them attacks. This replaces the +1 to Armour Save gained by fighting with HW & shield.

As ward saves do not stack normally, you won't get any benefit from Parry if you already have a better ward save.

Ok.

So, going from the very reliable Save rumor (which makes sense), in CC, you get your armor save fighting w/ a HW/Shield, and then you get the 6+ ward save if fighting in the front.

Nice bonus, I prefer it over the +1 to armour save in CC.

Edit: Oh, but how would this work with say Warriors of Tzeentch, they already have a 6+ ward save, and if they fought w/ HW/Shield, the mark of tzeentch would be literally useless.

mark of tzeentch also gives +1 to any ward save you already have.. Id imagine it would go to a 5++

I'm not sure, though I would play it like that.

The problem there being you still need to be fighting a S6 or better foe before you make use of the 5+ Ward Save (or, if it doesn't stack, S7 or better before you start taking a 6+ ward) instead of the regular save. Something that isn't too common in WHFB. The rule gives a very limited use to some equipment combinations (for instance, Savage Orcs now gain literally nothing from a shield), but in other places can be quite helpful (When someone only has a shield or just light armor & shield, it can be used a bit more often against shock troops and cavalry).

Funnily enough, this means Parry is going to be applied most to stuff like cavalry charges and monsters instead of things you'd typically expect a parry to be used against.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Karon wrote:Pretty hypocritical of you, John, eh?

GW always does this, the more simple it is, the larger the age group it attracts, and generally invites less-intelligent people to play.

No, not really.

The clearer the rules are, the fewer ahole & dhead stuff goes on, letting people actually play vs argue.

You know, simple and clear aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. That said, I'd rather they clarify the rules without dumbing it down. While I like rolling tons of dice for certain things (like my Helblaster Volley Guns or charging Cold One Bus), everything I've seen here depresses me. Frankly, I'm on board with Salvage's 7.5-edition idea (and if you want to tag-team, let me know!). I'm reserving final judgement until I read the book, but if these rumors are to be believed, then it's not really WHFB 8.0, it's a whole new game.


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Cryonicleech wrote:

Karon wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:I don't know about the rest of you, but Fantasy 8th is going to be much, much stranger than 7th.

Which is sad, because I REALLY like this edition...

A lot of this seems really unnecessary though... The changes to charging and magic are particularly troubling...

Well, looking forward to picking up the new rulebook though. General's edition FTW!

QFT, I really like this edition. It sounds insane, but I would rather 8th edition come out next year LOL.

Maybe that's just because I barely have tasted 7th edition yet. No, that's not it.

It's because 7th really defined the difference between 40k and fantasy.

8th looks like 40k, but with shittier weapons and magic.

Exactly. I mean, if anything's made 7th ed. crap, it's the newer Armybooks. I'm looking at you, Daemons, Dark Elves, Beastmen and Vampire Counts...

Now THAT's QFT. Power creep is doing bad things.

Sudden thought: If GW's primary motivation for the edition change is to sell models (by requiring buckets of infantry, as alleged), and we generally assume that Skaven and Beastmen were written with 8th in mind, answer this:

Why then, for both armies, did they develop new monsters with crazy abilities that everyone is playing with, and NOT make models for them? Why include a monstrosity like the Hellpit Abomination if you have no model, and the rules will largely preclude its use once you DO have a model?

Every time I see a new rumor, and combined with this new thought, I can't help but wonder if we're being intentionally BS'd by someone...

Your last point is what everyone has to keep in mind.

A lot of this could be complete bs. So judging ANYTHING now is foolish.

Judge when you read the words in the book, not stuff some bullshitter said earlier (like a guy did earlier)

Manfred von Drakken wrote:I'm reserving final judgement until I read the book, but if these rumors are to be believed, then it's not really WHFB 8.0, it's a whole new game.

I wish that were the case. I've been sitting out of fantasy for the last two editions and was hoping the new one would be up my alley. But it's not really that much of a change.

Same army books. Same basic rules. Tweaks that can be easily summarized on a page or two in White Dwarf rather than selling a whole new book.

I wouldn't call it 8.0, but 6.2.

frozenwastes wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:I'm reserving final judgement until I read the book, but if these rumors are to be believed, then it's not really WHFB 8.0, it's a whole new game.

I wish that were the case. I've been sitting out of fantasy for the last two editions and was hoping the new one would be up my alley. But it's not really that much of a change.

Same army books. Same basic rules. Tweaks that can be easily summarized on a page or two in White Dwarf rather than selling a whole new book.

I wouldn't call it 8.0, but 6.2.

Are you reading the same thread I am? The changes to the movement phase add a lot of unnecessary randomness to who gets to charge. Striking in pure Initiative order removes the value of charging. The magic phase is being reduced to an afterthought, rather than either a viable tactic or (in the case of some armies) a necessity. Combat involves buckets more dice than previously allowed. Army composition up in the air.

Totally not a fan.

It's pretty obvious that this new version is heavily based on WotR. That's what confuses me though. No one can say WotR is anything other than a total flop so why would they take one of their core games and turn in into another version of that mess? Do they think the only reason people don't play WotR is because of the terrible models? Even if WotR was awesome (it's really, really not) why would you want two games with the same basic rules? It's just really weird.

The suits at GW don't think WotR is a total flop - its sold very well and encouraged people to buy lots more LotR boxes and all the movement trays.

What gamers want =/= what GW commercial dept thinks will sell well.

In all my life I've seen maybe four games of WotR played in Games Workshop stores and never anywhere else and I regularly go to one of the top selling Games Workshops and a bunker. All the hardcore LorR players in the area hated WotR since it removed the skirmish aspect they liked and "turned it into Warhammer Fantasy." I can't believe it has sold very well unless there are super secret underground WotR leagues or something. People certainly can't be buying their super expensive (even for GW), yet hideous models (a few awesome kits aside) just to have can they?

Ixquic wrote:In all my life I've seen maybe four games of WotR played in Games Workshop stores and never anywhere else and I regularly go to one of the top selling Games Workshops and a bunker. All the hardcore LorR players in the area hated WotR since it removed the skirmish aspect they liked and "turned it into Warhammer Fantasy." I can't believe it has sold very well unless there are super secret underground WotR leagues or something. People certainly can't be buying their super expensive (even for GW), yet hideous models (a few awesome kits aside) just to have can they?

Your area =/= the world.

There's a rather sizable WotR group at one of the stores around here, I assume they exist elsewhere, too.

Just because YOU don't see it played doesn't mean that's how it is elsewhere and doesn't mean it didn't sell.

Ixquic wrote:In all my life I've seen maybe four games of WotR played in Games Workshop stores and never anywhere else and I regularly go to one of the top selling Games Workshops and a bunker. All the hardcore LorR players in the area hated WotR since it removed the skirmish aspect they liked and "turned it into Warhammer Fantasy." I can't believe it has sold very well unless there are super secret underground WotR leagues or something. People certainly can't be buying their super expensive (even for GW), yet hideous models (a few awesome kits aside) just to have can they?

OT
So how do you explain all of the metal units turning into plastics? If WotR were not selling, we would see an increase in metal, and decrease in new plastics.
Currently we see the opposite, so that makes me think it must be selling well.
I think most LotR or WotR players stay home. They don't play at the shop, so you would never see them. That doesn't mean they don't exist.
If WotR was the flop you think it is, Battlehosts would not have just come out.

Also, what kits do you think are hideous? The majority look just like the stuff in the movies. And those were good designs for the most part.

Seriously look at most metal infantry or cavalry models. They are poorly detailed and typically fugly. The dragon, balrog, new winged nazgul are cool and great models, but pretty much everything man sized is just bad. Some of the newer plastics are a little better but for the most part they aren't great.

Games Workshop is determined to turn a profit with the game system (they aren't going to release it and then call it a bust a year later) and I'm sure that the current plastics have been in production for a long time. I don't know what would cause WotR players to stay at home as opposed to going to GW or independent stores to play like every other person that plays miniature games. I'd like to see a sales report to confirm my suspicions but I've been to several bunkers and have seen almost no WotR players and never seen someone play a game in the local non GW stores (and they run tons of different stuff). Like I said maybe they have their secret leagues where you have to know the password to enter but pretty much every LotR player I know has quit with the new edition and I don't exactly see people lining up at cash registers with the models in hand.

Ixquic wrote:I don't know what would cause WotR players to stay at home as opposed to going to GW or independent stores to play like every other person that plays miniature games.

NOT like everyone that plays miniatures games, actually. Tons of them play in their basement/garage/game room instead of playing in stores. It's more of a GW and PP thing to play in stores from what I've seen. I don't see Historicals besides FoW played in the stores around here, does that mean non-FoW Historical games aren't doing well and therefore aren't played?

Ironically, it's people like you(the people that only talk about how much the game and models suck loudly and publicly) that are the reason they don't play IN GW stores.

Uh huh, if they are so insecure that someone is saying their game is lame on the internet that they can't go into a GW store where they don't even let you badmouth their products then they have some serious insecurity issues.

Maybe if the game and models weren't so bad people like me wouldn't point it out. Personally I don't care what games people play and I certainly don't go to people and be a negative jerk when they are just trying to have fun but it does scare me when they take a poor product and turn Fantasy into WotR with Empire and Chaos. I'm hoping it doesn't turn out that way but a lot of the rumors seem to be pointing in that direction.

What? The models and rules for WotR are bad? Strange, most of the models I see in the GW online store I think are pretty cool (especially the Easterlings). And everyone who I've talked to who's actually, you know, played the game, think it's a pretty darn good system.

But then again, this is the internet, people do like talking out of their asses.

Wow. You mean there is another person on Dakka who doesn't think Dakka = the world. I swear with all the whining going on on Dakka and the comments made that most Dakkaites think the world outside Dakka doesn't exist.

Ix, again. Just because you don't see something going on at your store doesn't mean it's not out there. There are 14 40k players in my city. I, personally, am the only one that has ever set foot in Dakka and posted on Dakka. That is why I can form an opinion on what does or doesn't happen involving 40K and Fantasy. For example, according to Dakka, of the 6 guys playing CSM in our group, 4 of them should hate the codex and bitch about it constantly because, according to Dakka, 80% or more of the CSM players hate the new codex. In my group it's just the opposite. 2 of them started up CSM AFTER the newest codex came out. A 3rd, a buddy of mine, is in the process of building one.

It isn't insecurity that makes people not want to play in stores because of comments like yours Ix. It's the desire to avoid punching you in the mouth and going to jail for shutting your mouth for you. It doesn't bother me if someone doesn't like 40K but if they keep telling me how dumb and idiotic it is I have 2 choices: walk away or jail. Walking away and avoiding being around that person is cheaper and easier than jail time for assault.

That also and not many people want to spend gas/travel time to go to the nearest game store. There are probably 100's of WoTR players in your area, they just don't all play at the local FLG's.

Anyway, I like the sounds of some of these changes and I look forward to reading the ACTUAL hardbound rulebook.

I'm a fan of WotR, and think they managed to make something that works for an attempt to shift a game from skirmish into regiments. I don't necessarily think they couldn't have done any better (almost any player will notice that Evil Magic is, when spammed, deliciously cheesy, while at the same time Good is pretty much invulnerable to direct hits or hand-to-hand due to a a high natural D and frequency of Enchanted Cloaks), but I don't think the rule's crap either.

However, I like WotR being individual: WotR. I own all three systems (technically more if you include a lot of the sub-games). If one of them is going to merge with another (or, worse, override), I'm basically going to wonder why I should keep the less played of the two. "Hm, I can play WotR, or I can play WHFB: WotR edition with twice the number of players in the store. Why am I going to play WotR?"

Ixquic wrote:Uh huh, if they are so insecure that someone is saying their game is lame on the internet that they can't go into a GW store where they don't even let you badmouth their products then they have some serious insecurity issues.

Maybe if the game and models weren't so bad people like me wouldn't point it out. Personally I don't care what games people play and I certainly don't go to people and be a negative jerk when they are just trying to have fun but it does scare me when they take a poor product and turn Fantasy into WotR with Empire and Chaos. I'm hoping it doesn't turn out that way but a lot of the rumors seem to be pointing in that direction.

Has nothing to do with insecurity. Those who play at home do so for many reasons. Biggest one is that you can control who you are playing with and around.

I am willing to bet that the majority of LotR/WotR players are also historical players. I play in two groups that are mostly historicals. Total of around 20 guys.
Myself and one other are the only ones to go to a GW store. And I am the only one who actually plays at the store, albeit rarely.

I do not understand the hostility in your comments.

Please, if you want to rant and rave about WOTR, start a new thread. I'm here to whine about a product that ain't out yet. Thankyouhaveabiceday.

Durzod wrote:Please, if you want to rant and rave about WOTR, start a new thread. I'm here to whine about a product that ain't out yet. Thankyouhaveabiceday.

Priceless!

I, for one am looking forward to a new edition. If it's good, I'll be happy, if it's not, life goes on. No wonder the missus laughs at people like us (geeks) for getting into a lather about bits of plastic being shuffled around a table.

Yeah. Most geeks EARN the ridicule; not just for playing but for acting like someone is dismembering them whenever rules change.

Feebay and the swap shop will have great deals when the chicken littles sell their collections over a few pages of rules.

Ix- I have been wargaming for 30 years and never once played in a GW or flgs. I have always played in local clubs and peoples homes (inc my own...). Personally I like WotR for its simplicity.

Mick

Durzod wrote:Please, if you want to rant and rave about WOTR, start a new thread. I'm here to whine about a product that ain't out yet. Thankyouhaveabiceday.

I agree, nobody gives two gaks about WOTR in this thread, if you want to QQ about WOTR instead of 8th edition, make a new thread.

I've updated the first post in blue, with the stuff I posted the other day.

Whilst I happen to be here, everyone should head down to their local GW on saturday, as the staff are running intro sessions and answering questions (apparently).

I may well break my 22 personal messages received in 1 day record.

Minsc wrote:I'm, well, not liking the "no duplicate spell" thing.

I am. It's a good balancer and a good anti-spam measure. And about time, too.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Minsc wrote:I'm, well, not liking the "no duplicate spell" thing.

I am. It's a good balancer and a good anti-spam measure. And about time, too.

But I fear this doesn't stop the problem it's designed to fix, which is things like Staff of Nurgle spam; the 'no duplicates' rule doesn't cover bound spells.

Besides, how many spells can really be spammed anyway? This doesn't change Flickering Fire spam, since it's the base spell. Gateway spamming? Please - In a 2000-point game, hero-level wizards are rarely ever going to get that spell off, and even then, it's likely to be dispelled.

It's clearly a step in the right direction. You can't duplicate spells, nor Magic Items, so there's definitely an upper bound.

As you note, the only remaining hole is Daemonic Gifts... Having a single exception for Daemons isn't a reason not to nerf everybody else!

I don't like that parry rule at all. It doesn't make any sense from a representative point of view (i.e. it only seems to work against attacks that in reality you couldn't parry, and has no benefit against stuff you could parry) and seriously nerfs hw/s.

Ixquic wrote:Seriously look at most metal infantry or cavalry models. They are poorly detailed and typically fugly. The dragon, balrog, new winged nazgul are cool and great models, but pretty much everything man sized is just bad. Some of the newer plastics are a little better but for the most part they aren't great.

Games Workshop is determined to turn a profit with the game system (they aren't going to release it and then call it a bust a year later) and I'm sure that the current plastics have been in production for a long time. I don't know what would cause WotR players to stay at home as opposed to going to GW or independent stores to play like every other person that plays miniature games. I'd like to see a sales report to confirm my suspicions but I've been to several bunkers and have seen almost no WotR players and never seen someone play a game in the local non GW stores (and they run tons of different stuff). Like I said maybe they have their secret leagues where you have to know the password to enter but pretty much every LotR player I know has quit with the new edition and I don't exactly see people lining up at cash registers with the models in hand.

troll= Troll failure.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I don't like that parry rule at all. It doesn't make any sense from a representative point of view (i.e. it only seems to work against attacks that in reality you couldn't parry, and has no benefit against stuff you could parry) and seriously nerfs hw/s.

I pointed this out: It's funny that you're more likely to actually make use of the Parry special rule against someone like a Greater Daemon or Grimgor than you are against something like a Swordsman.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I don't like that parry rule at all. It doesn't make any sense from a representative point of view (i.e. it only seems to work against attacks that in reality you couldn't parry, and has no benefit against stuff you could parry) and seriously nerfs hw/s.

I'm chalking this one up to more controlled BS to set the rumor mill on fire.


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Minsc wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I don't like that parry rule at all. It doesn't make any sense from a representative point of view (i.e. it only seems to work against attacks that in reality you couldn't parry, and has no benefit against stuff you could parry) and seriously nerfs hw/s.

I pointed this out: It's funny that you're more likely to actually make use of the Parry special rule against someone like a Greater Daemon or Grimgor than you are against something like a Swordsman.

What'll be amusing in my Warriors of Tzeentch using HW/S against incoming Bretonnian charges. Yay 5+ ward save!

Manfred von Drakken wrote:What'll be amusing in my Warriors of Tzeentch using HW/S against incoming Bretonnian charges. Yay 5+ ward save!

Why a 5+ Ward? They'll have their base 5+ save (They're only S3 for non-heroes, yes? And thus, S5 after lance) and without combi-saves you can really use either.

Minsc wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:What'll be amusing in my Warriors of Tzeentch using HW/S against incoming Bretonnian charges. Yay 5+ ward save!

Why a 5+ Ward? They'll have their base 5+ save (They're only S3 for non-heroes, yes? And thus, S5 after lance) and without combi-saves you can really use either.

If you read the rule clearly, it says You can always take an armour save, and can take either a Regeneration OR ward save.

So you can take your Armour, and then ward, or Armour, or then regen.

Karon wrote:

Minsc wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:What'll be amusing in my Warriors of Tzeentch using HW/S against incoming Bretonnian charges. Yay 5+ ward save!

Why a 5+ Ward? They'll have their base 5+ save (They're only S3 for non-heroes, yes? And thus, S5 after lance) and without combi-saves you can really use either.

If you read the rule clearly, it says You can always take an armour save, and can take either a Regeneration OR ward save.

So you can take your Armour, and then ward, or Armour, or then regen.

Huh, the bolded was new. I apologize for that.

This whole "parry" system is just too confusing. I mean, what was wrong with the current rule? At the least, you're ALWAYS getting something, but this rule just seems a bit out there.

Oh well, I guess we'll have to wait and see how 8th turns out...

(I might just stick with 7th ed if it turns out to suck...)

I kind of like it. Desperately cowering behind your shield with a 1/6 chance of survival seems about right to me.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Are you reading the same thread I am? The changes to the movement phase add a lot of unnecessary randomness to who gets to charge. Striking in pure Initiative order removes the value of charging. The magic phase is being reduced to an afterthought, rather than either a viable tactic or (in the case of some armies) a necessity. Combat involves buckets more dice than previously allowed. Army composition up in the air.

Totally not a fan.

Me neither. I think it sucks.

What I meant though was that the text it takes to explain the changes is tiny. If you were to gather up all the changes from 6 to 7, you could make them all fit on a couple of pages and print them as an update, put them in a PDF and in WD. But instead GW calls it a new game and sells a new book and all the suckers buy it.

Same with the changes for 7 to 8. The changes aren't that voluminous. They may have massive implications on the game, but they're still basically a small list of tweaks that don't justify calling it a new edition. From 5th to 6th was a new edition. In 40k, from 2nd to 3rd was a new edition. Everything after that has been a relatively minor change in terms of actual text.

GW needs to do WFB 8 because they need the revenue of a big splash release this summer. 8.0 is an attempt at a cash grab, nothing more.

frozenwastes wrote: GW needs to do WFB 8 because they need the revenue of a big splash release this summer. 8.0 is an attempt at a cash grab, nothing more.

Really? You sure about that? And this is News to anybody?

Wow.

I'm still pretty excited about the whole thing... fantasy is broken at the moment, imho, so these changes should be refreshing! I am a little apprehensive about needing banners to claim objectives, but that's only due to my own personal army...

What about people getting a 6+ Ward instead of +1 to save for Parry? That looking good to you, RiTides?

Oh, and funny implication: A shield is more effective against Troll Vomit than a Steam Tank's hull.

I think they should keep it as +1 armor save because if a sword can chop through armor it can chop through a sword.

FlammingGaunt wrote:I think they should keep it as +1 armor save because if a sword can chop through armor it can chop through a sword.

Fact checking FAIL!

Platuan4th wrote:

FlammingGaunt wrote:I think they should keep it as +1 armor save because if a sword can chop through armor it can chop through a sword.

Fact checking FAIL!

Quite.

Sword isn't the same as armor. At all.

Okay, I watched a demo game in the GW Oberhausen. I couldn't stay very long but can recollect the following:

We know there is no guessing anymore. What happens to Great Cannon is that you nominate a spot, roll the two artillery dice for bounces. If you hit a unit, the strength decreases like a bolt thrower's bolt, starting at S10.

If the first bounce hits a wall, the shot is wasted but the wall is destroyed. Interactive terrain!

Charges are as said M + 2d6. A failed charged apparently results in M + higher d6 (I'm not sure if it is highest d6 only).

All missile units may shoot in two ranks, not only bows. The latter just get the added benefit of being able to shoot with half of the third.

Pistols have 12" range now.

Wizards do not add their level to the die roll.

Bound spells work as follows: You have to beat the relevant complexity level with PD as with a normal spell. Your opponent then has to beat the resulting score.

Large creatures such as trolls or great eagles do 1 additional attack at the end of the combat, dragons and such do d6.

Ranks are counted after hits have been exchanged.

Wow people are REALLY not going to like my Empire army with three mortars, three cannons, two rocket batteries which all don't have to guess, my three pistolers that move 16" then shoot 12". all backed up by handguns that fire in two ranks and all of it is actual line of sight so can't be blocked by most terrain. I dare an army to get halfway across the field.

Also, so bound spells are just regular spells now? What's the difference?

Bound Spells now, apparently, are "You see the Bound Level? Roll some power dice: If you beat that number, it goes off." Essentially, it makes it easier to duplicate a spell as well as getting it off "lite" / at a lower casting value.

I can't wait to see TK's get a lore and lose their Bound Spell nature

Ranks after wounds + initiative order + only 3 ranks max = horde armies are not happy campers.

Horde armies aren't going to much like Pie Plate Funtime (working title for my Empire list) either. I want to see the face of the guy when I do over 20 wounds with one mortar hit to his huge unit that's stupidly wide for the stubborn bonus.

that's stupidly wide for the stubborn bonus.

As far as I know the unit is stubborn if it's only engaged to the front and has more rank bonus than the enemy. It has nothing to do with being wide.

Zombies are going to be sick in the new game. Absolutely sick. Dark Elf Crossbowmen also seem even better than before if that's even possible.

a TK lore would be interesting. the Lore of Sand or the Lore of You Darn Kids Get off My Lawn and Quit Stealing My Stuff! Long but it fits their mindset.

FacelessMage wrote:a TK lore would be interesting. the Lore of Sand or the Lore of You Darn Kids Get off My Lawn and Quit Stealing My Stuff! Long but it fits their mindset.

LOL

But I'm like a lot of people are worried about artillery becoming overpowered. Also I can't say that I'm happy with the new charge system but it could be worse.

Early reports from those who have seen the playtest games;

25% lords 25% hero

Armour/ward/regen unchanged.

A few other things. I will update the first post tommorow.

Grimstonefire wrote:
25% lords 25% hero

I kept seeing this on Warseer the past week.

I hope it's wrong, because otherwise, it does nothing to help with Herohammer at all.

So in a 2000pt army...

I can get my Grey Seer on Bell for about 500pts and still have 500pts to spend on Heroes? Is this right?

Flashman wrote:So in a 2000pt army...

I can get my Grey Seer on Bell for about 500pts and still have 500pts to spend on Heroes? Is this right?

That'd be the gist of it from what I've gathered.

So still 50% characters for those armies that take them currently.

Basically, you're just worrying about whether to bring more Specials or more Rares in 8th. The only reason I saw for putting in(and my support of) percentages is now defunct if this is true.

Way to remove my enthusiasm for 8th, GW.

Hasn't quite removed my ethusiasm. I want a bell and the deathmaster in my 2000pts if only to cut down on the amount of infantry I have to field. If you had painted 30 skavenslaves and only filled up 60pts, you'd understand

Flashman wrote:Hasn't quite removed my ethusiasm. I want a bell and the deathmaster in my 2000pts if only to cut down on the amount of infantry I have to field. If you had painted 30 skavenslaves and only filled up 60pts, you'd understand

I have 100+ Slaves and 100+ Clanrats in my 2k point force, trust me, I understand.

I bought Skaven to specifically field a ton of Core models.

Platuan4th wrote:

Grimstonefire wrote:
25% lords 25% hero

I kept seeing this on Warseer the past week.

I hope it's wrong, because otherwise, it does nothing to help with Herohammer at all.

I second this. Death to hero-hammer, long live Core-hammer Fantasy Battle.

I really cannot wait to see confirmed rules for this.

So it looks like the only army that won't be able to field a dragon is my Warriors. Other armies can still field the heros with it.

Another problem is sometimes I like to run 4 heros instead of a lord and 3 heros. Looks like this won't be possible in the new system.

I REALLY need someone to leak the scenarios and how you win games with the new system since every rumor sounds worse and worse...

Eh, I've been hearing from people who've seen the book that it's 25% characters total, not 25% characters, 25% lord, 25% hero. Pretty sure they specifically mention characters at 25% but I guess we'll know with a sure to happen screen shot.

Walls wrote:Eh, I've been hearing from people who've seen the book that it's 25% characters total, not 25% characters, 25% lord, 25% hero. Pretty sure they specifically mention characters at 25% but I guess we'll know with a sure to happen screen shot.

Cool, that other rumor is stupid since it doesn't stop hero hammer AND removed some choice freedom for other players.

Walls wrote:Eh, I've been hearing from people who've seen the book that it's 25% characters total, not 25% characters, 25% lord, 25% hero. Pretty sure they specifically mention characters at 25% but I guess we'll know with a sure to happen screen shot.

Funny, that's exactly what the 25% Heroes, 25% Lords are saying: They heard it directly from someone who has seen the book.

The thing is the Books are either still on the boats or are in warehouses for distribution, so most likely NO ONE's(outside of the studio) seen the actual book.

I've heard from fairly reliable sources that there are books making the rounds amongst some of the staff. I'm sure they are going to be tight lipped since it would be pretty easy to figure out who to fire but they are going to be doing learn to plays soon and will need to know how to answer rules questions.

Some confirmations from demo game day by me:

Rulebook will come with next black box, so all shops can make demo day by 12th June.
Will feature lots of pictures.

On official release day, all armies get a pdf errata/update.

Only percentages, no slots. Some restrictions to keep balance. 25% hero and 25% lords confirmed.

Skirmishers have rank and no 360o sight.

Infantry may move through forests without penalty, difficult terrain for cavalry.

Ease of change formation makes interaction with terrain easier.

No more guessing distances, you can measure everything before moving/shooting etc.

Fighting in 2 ranks and better hitting back will favour larger units. General emphasis of this edition is big wars.

So much for now.

Edit: Most Magic rumours are true including
"If a wizard fails to reach the casting value it is not a miscast, they just cannot cast any more spells that magic phase."
I will add: Another magic user may still try that spell. BTW there are fireballs of different strength.

Can I ask if you saw any changes to panic rules? I've been asking around and it seems this is unchanged.

I'm going to do one 'final' edit of the sticky tommorow.

It's also said by someone who was at a demo game in GW of the new system.

Sorry, no. Just talked to someone and didn't ask this.
But in about 2 weeks, many people will have a copy of the book in their hands.
BTW, shirts were not allowed to talk about the starter box, not even the release month or the mini rule book.

Is there any advantage to using skirmishers in the new book???

Compared to now or compared to rank and file units?

I'll just copy and paste the bit from the WIP update to my sticky:

B]Skirmishers[/B]

[*]Skirmishers are now a fixed formation, with a 1 inch gap between each and every model. -Avian and Kah-thurak - Note. The gap between them may actually be the same size as the base width.

X = Model
O = 1" Gap between

X O X O X O X O X
O O O O O O O O O
X O X O X O X O X

Skirmishers still rank up in combat, but as they do not get a rank bonus they cannot negate enemy rank bonuses. As long as they are not charging, Skirmishers can reform on the move as often as they wish and also march and shoot.

[*]360 Line of sight for skirmishers. Some have said this is in and some have said it is definitely not. I will edit one out later.

I'm trying and trying but I just can't see how this doesn't make gunlines outrageously broken. I know someone is going to say that there are objectives with the new scenarios, but what's stopping armies from loading up on artillery and ranged weapons, blowing scoring units off the board for four turns, then jumping some cheap unit with a standard on an objective?

Unless there's something really cool with the scenarios or the "hit" result on the artillery dice is gone, I can't see how this is playtested at all.

Also what's the point of percentages now? It looks like it's actually EASIER now to spam the better units and overloaded Lord characters are encouraged instead of a cheaper amount of heroes. Seriously this has the stink of Matt Ward all over it.

Slots gone? Limited purchases with only Special & Rare? Hello, Night Goblin army w/ 1000pts in characters. I'll take my 8 Goblin Big Bosses, obligatory Orc BSB w/ the Spirit Totem, 4-5 Goblin Warbosses, and a Goblin Great Shaman or two for Dispel Dice & bonuses.

Can you see a pair of Night Goblin units lead by Heroes through the whole of the front rank? Attacks will need to be rolled individually against the Night Gobbos before any casualties can be drawn, and limited to only 2 wounds per model dedicated against Suddenly, armies with cheap characters got a small leg-up: Sure, they're crap characters, but they're still (usually) at least slightly better than another army's RnF.

Good god I hope that percentages don't actually come to being.

Assuming we are aloud to link to other forums:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259481

I cant remember if that rule was for this forum or that one. Either way, looks like this guy is yet another to see them and confirm. I like most of them myself.

The more I read about 8th the more excited I am. Granted I play dwarves and ogres and all the changes seem to be a good boost for me so I might be slightly biased. Add in the lowering of the magic craziness and even w/50% characters i'm totally down for this edition.

Id keep in mind that "demo" games often leave out like half of the actual rules. The person running the demos have maybe played the new rules twice

Generating Power and Dispel Dice
# [*]Power dice aren’t generated by the number of spellcasters. The amount of dice is decided by 2D6. The active player gets the total as power dice and the other player the highest throw as dispel dice (throw 3+5, = 8 PD and 5 DD). (confirmed)


Channeling (confirmed that it exists)
# [*]Each wizard may roll a D6 and generate an additional power dice on a roll of 6.
[*]Each enemy wizard may roll a D6 and generate an additional dispel dice on a roll of 6.
[*]You may not channel while fleeing, off the board or when you suffer from stupidity..


Maximum Power and Dispel Dice
# [*]The maximum number of power or dispel dice you may have at any time is 12. This includes any power/dispel dice generated by special rules, spells and/or magic items.


Casting Spells
# [*]To cast a spell, roll 1 to 6 Power dice and add your caster's power level. EG: A Slann casts fireball and uses 2D6. He rolls a 3 and a 4 - score of 7. He than adds his Power Level of 4, which results in a total roll of 11.


Miscasting
Here is where I think we need a lot more information.
# [*]It is rumoured that miscasts are entirely gone, but are replaced by a combined irresistible force/ miscast table effectively:

[*]When you roll a double 6 the spell is cast with irresistible force, but the Caster has to roll on the "lost control" chart, which is devastating, and far more worse than the current miscast table.


Lost Control Chart
# Roll of 1: This has been confirmed as being even worse than number 4… Which (pure speculation) may involve every model in the unit taking a hit, this was something I actually heard a while back, but it could be worse than this.

Roll of 4: The wizard is sucked into the warp and the large template is centred over him. S10 hits for something (could be the centre model, meaning S5 for the rest?).

So where does this leave Kroak?

He generates 4 power dice that goes directly to the pool, overruling the rule above for generating extra dice on a 6+.

If they think that I am ever going to cast the 3rd or 4th power level and the need to roll 4-6 dice with the chance for a double 1 and now even worse a double 6 for his spell then the guy who wrote the rules is insane.
The 2nd level spell will be great, cast it 3-4 times per spell for a 12 inch circle of destruction.

I think they have taken an appropriately priced character borderline completely useless, except when he bolts to the middle of the enemy line and drops 3-4 nukes per turn on the enemy units there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why do they keep trying to make spell casting so damned dangerous, but leave the spam casting of VCs (where all the problems with the current magic phase arose) alone?

FlammingGaunt wrote:Good god I hope that percentages don't actually come to being.

Same here!

If these rumors become true i will just quit fantasy and go back to 40k or play 7th ed rules...

I have a feeling they will adjust the casting levels of most VC spells to 10+, which will take more power dice and increses the chances of Loss of Control, or not being able to cast for a turn.

% are 100% definitely in.

I think the date for the rumor listed under the "more reliable" section on the first page, about when GW stores will start running demo/intro games for the new fantasy rules, is off.

It says May 22nd, but I talked to the manager at the Bunker here yesterday, and he said he was expecting to start running them around mid-June (so still about a month off, give or take).

They were running games elsewhere in the world yesterday. Lots of information up in the link from GMM's post.

Grimstonefire wrote:

% are 100% definitely in.

Alright

Any news on not being able to take 2 of the same rares being true yet?.

I think the percentages and slot system rumours that we've heard of are still a bit uncertain. It might be that the slots still exist but the percentages are just an additional form of control. It would force some things out of the game especially at lower points limits and some ridiculously large death star units even at larger limits.

If however the slots are gone and only replaced by percentages, don't panic. Warhammer is already regulated by piles and piles of house rules and composition restrictions and I doubt there's many tournaments that want to see 10 Empire Mortars in 3000 pts games (exactly 25% special), and would just use the same old blanket 'no double rares or triple specials' rule as many times before.

The only thing I'm concerned about is the movement. If wheeling is gone the first implication to me is that along with the other massive changes infantry will be king. That's fine. However, marching with a simple LD test and having the same mobility as fast cavalry now means that it will be nearly impossible to 'box in' someone to an inevitable death by front and flank charges since the target will just wiggle and fudge away from the charge arcs with 10" march movement. Imagine two infantry blocks facing eachother 1" away. If the unit whose turn it is doesn't want combat, it can take an LD test and just move the entire block to the other unit's flank. That's a maneouvre that would've required like 40" movement before. The other unit can't charge, it can only move wherever it desires and then the other unit can again wiggle away if it wants to. We'll just have to wait and see the actual rules since I doubt movement can be that simplified. It simply won't work. In 40K every unit has 360' line of sight so a very simple movement system suffices. It won't in Warhammer.


EDIT:

This just in from The Warhammer Forum, regarding the slots and percentages:

manicpsychotic wrote:Apparently there is a limit of 3 max specials/2 rares of any one type at 2000pts and then it goes up to 4/3 at 3000pts or something. So in the current game 3 mortars, 3 cannons and 2 rocket batteries would be the limit. Rumoured longer possible charge ranges and extra move for fast cavalry before the game starts make gun lines risky without plenty of troops to support them.

I'm pretty sure the game will turn out great.

woah thats scary therion..

Two questions on that:
1) Does that, at all, effect the whole "No slots stated for characters" bit? I mean, how many Skaven Chieftans or Empire Captains could someone fit in 25% of a 2K point game?
2) How does the "no more than three special choices / two special choices alike" affect things like "Two Bolt Throwers for a Single Special Choice". Does this mean no more than Six Bolt Throwers (three slots)? Or no more than Three Bolt Throwers (since slots are gone in that rumor)?

Minsc wrote:Two questions on that:
1) Does that, at all, effect the whole "No slots stated for characters" bit? I mean, how many Skaven Chieftans or Empire Captains could someone fit in 25% of a 2K point game?

At 2k, that's 11 naked Chieftains. More importantly, that's 33 naked Warlock Engineers(or 33 US1[ie. don't cause Panic when they flee] Charge Blockers for your entire army). Or 7 Lvl 1 Warlock Engineers(we've been playing this game for weeks on UnderEmpire).

I'd be more worried about the Chieftains: Just five of them forming the front of a unit is some 15 attacks before the second rank with WS and S to boot - 15 S5 Halberd attacks (They can still take halberds, yes?) is nothing to be scoffed at, nor making the enemy have to allocate pretty much all their attacks individually.

Minsc wrote:I'd be more worried about the Chieftains: Just five of them forming the front of a unit is some 15 attacks before the second rank with WS and S to boot - 15 S5 Halberd attacks (They can still take halberds, yes?) is nothing to be scoffed at, nor making the enemy have to allocate pretty much all their attacks individually.

No doubt.

All around, there's some sneaky tactics armies with cheap characters and no slots will produce.

Platuan4th wrote:No doubt.

All around, there's some sneaky tactics armies with cheap characters and no slots will produce.

Pretty much. This also isn't counting that supposedly there's going to be some 40-80ish common magic items available to characters from the new Big Book, which could possibly turn character-spam into even more cheese.

The way I expect them to counter this (for O&G, anyways) is an increase in statlines with raised cost to boot. Skaven will probably be amongst the last guard for that, but even so that's not something good to consider (who here doesn't see at least one combination in the 40-80-some options that, while fine or meh on their own, is going to become pure evil when combined with six or seven other items in the list?). No-slot no-limit heroes will be, well, disgusting.

Hmmm...

2 beastlords, each kitted out, each around 250 worth of points.

4 Wargors, each kitted out with gear, 130 or so each.

Each accompanying a bestigor or Gor block.

Oh, I'm starting to like this edition.

Updated the first post, with the info from saturday.

@Minsc

I don't know whether the 'no more than 2 or 3 of the same' thing relates to 2 for 1. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that 2 for 1 are entirely gone. The only restriction outside of % and 2 or 3 of the same now as far as I know is tha the units with 'do not count towards minimum core number of units required', will be replaced with 'do not count towards the minumum core % required'.

All I can think about is 16 Ironguts w/standard, BS, and Lord. Go for the Ogre Horde!!!!! And they average a 12"+ charge. Love it!

Not that this would be incredibly efficient but it would be fun!

So does this mean in a 2250 point game i can run 3 hydras and 1 dragonlord ? oh god

Considering the missions don't have victory points or kill points and only core units with banners are scoring, you might want to invest in some of those said scoring units if you intend to win any games. I'm not sure monsters and cavalry are as necessary as they are now. Infantry will be nearly as fast as heavy cavalry and monsters have been and almost as mobile as skirmishers and fast cavalry have been and on top of it all they're scoring. Additionally, monsters and small cavalry hammers can't break anything with frontal charges since everything will be stubborn against them. Finally if the infantry unit in the receiving end of a charge is an elite unit, it will even strike first because of high initiative.

The thing is, with O&G they're only investing some 480pts in War Machines assuming they can take six bolt throwers: If only three, that's 375. Since characters would probably be only about 800-900, that's still about 600-800 in Core - three big blocks of NG's with fanatics and nets. Which, quite frankly, need the characters anyways to have any chance of winning HtH what with being O&G's.

EDIT: Just went through the page 1 updates.

As said earlier, 50% possible for characters does very little to limit Hero Hammer. Yeah, you won't see a Chaos Sorceror Lord w/ 3 jacked up Hero Characters. You'll see two. Amazing change. The difference now is, instead of rushing characters out on Monstrous Mounts, now they'll be used en-masse in regiments.

Single models have 90° LoS is so-so for me, as it makes some models (Warpstone Star Assassins, for instance) even less useful. Further encouragement of putting characters in units at all times?

Fast Cavalry is allowed to get closer, nice. I guess it'll help them with War Machine hunting, since that's all they're really good for now (especially if they go to 45° LoS as well).

I can't think of many people who are going to use Skirmishers with these changes. Let's see, what can Skirmishers do:
1) See 360° (how many have ranged weapons of sufficient range to help with this?).
2) +1 CR and Stubborn in Woods (Woo, they have an amazing static CR1 and Stubborn 7 or 8 in woods! They can hold the enemy up for an amazing two turns before being slaughtered!).
3) A chance to buy GW's special new bases that'll probably be released.

And... that's it!

A 5" template at S10 for an Irresistible Force? Really? Why should I focus on magic again? Oh, wait, the 3" Template over 30" that can kill 66% of all Gors, Undead, Orcs, and Ogres that it touches instantaneously. That's why.

Salvo Fire, I guess, could be sorta handy for a few shooty units. Funnily enough, not those who are asking for extra shots (Gobbos and Orc Arrer Boyz).

Breath Weapons once / game, that'll limit the effectiveness of some units. Guess they need something to prevent Hydras from becoming pure evil with +2D6 attacks, at least.

Stubborn Units can use a character's leadership within 12", are you ready to watch units benefitting from a short Ld10 character in the back of the field?

Portable towers... I'm sure this means something is going to change with the building rules.

Keep in mind that some HQs count as Lord AND Hero choice, so they count vs. both 25% limits.
And the GW person was very explicit that the Wizard level is added to the 2d6 roll.
And he was explicit about the 45o arc of sight for skirmishers.

Welp time to sell my Wood Elf army since skirmishers have no place in Fantasy for four years until 9th edition (maybe) and I don't feel like buying tons of Glade Guard which seem like the only useful unit come July.

Therion wrote: only core units with banners are scoring

I've only seen a requirement to have a banner, not to be Core.

Ixquic wrote:Welp time to sell my Wood Elf army since skirmishers have no place in Fantasy for four years until 9th edition (maybe) and I don't feel like buying tons of Glade Guard which seem like the only useful unit come July.

Perfect example of the opportunity that a new edition brings.

Lots of armies on ebay!

skyth wrote:

Therion wrote: only core units with banners are scoring

I've only seen a requirement to have a banner, not to be Core.

How reliable is this banner rumor? Over on the warseer post (linked above by MM) I don't see that mentioned. As a wood elf player running lots of forest spirits (no banners) I hope it's not true!

Also, to the wood elf player above- don't go! There will be erratas for each army, etc- I'm sure wood elves will still be competitive in some respects. They've always been a minor win / draw often army, and I don't see that changing with objectives and the like, even if we won't benefit much from the rank bonuses. We have excellent core, so those requirements don't hurt us at all, like they do other armies. Stick around and see what it's like before jumping ship

A lot of people will be buying fantasy armies after the new rules come out, so you might as well wait, anyway!

Were there really people buying up Beastmen armies on ebay throughout 7th edition?

I mean if you just want the models that's cool (I bought it second hand as well) but why would you want to buy up armies that can't function even if they are cheap? It's one thing to be underpowered, but another when the main strength of your army just got removed.

Of course I'm still hoping that the rumor is wrong since it's just so bad it's hard to believe.

I'm going to spam units of skink cohorts.

20 modles, 10 wide, muso and standard. Run at the enemy and pelt them with 20 poisoned javelins.
Then because it is thrown I can stand and shoot even if the charge is at close range.

Damn... here I was painting saurus.

I still think they are way too heavy handed on magic, and trying to kill off your expensive mages (and their units).
Get rid of 1 dice casting spam for VC and on the whole most problems dissapear.

Actually, get rid of the re-casting ability of Vampire spells and most of the problem goes away.

Therion wrote:Considering the missions don't have victory points or kill points and only core units with banners are scoring, you might want to invest in some of those said scoring units if you intend to win any games.

Or, you can just table your opponent...

Or, you can just table your opponent...

Yeah for example by using your scoring core units instead of monsters that can't break anything with frontal charges (and believe me most charges will be frontal since every unit has so many free reforms and skirmisher-like march movenent to wiggle away). You have to understand that if these rumours are accurate then monsters are support units that bring some casualty combat resolution for scoring infantry, not armies in their own right. It's going to take a Bloodthirster the entire game to chew through a measly unit of 25 Orcs or Goblins unless he brings a big bunch of PBs or Daemonettes to help him. That's a huge change and I believe some armies will benefit from not using any other HQ units at all except a mandatory el cheapo general.

I'm going to spam units of skink cohorts.

Not a bad idea I guess. I'm thinking that if armour piercing stay as is I'd take a few 20 strong DE xbow units that fire with every model from 2 ranks of 10 models and if necessary reform to 4 ranks of 5 for combat, and support them with a few 10 strong (2 ranks of 5) xbow units that shoot with every model all the time. Something like 80 of these guys should be good.

I heard the book was going to be a monolithic 500 page tome. Don't know if that's been repeated elsewhere, or accurate, but it's what I heard.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I heard the book was going to be a monolithic 500 page tome. Don't know if that's been repeated elsewhere, or accurate, but it's what I heard.

Yeah its on the OP first post:

528+ pages. Full colour

Its a Huge brick! I hope it has nice pictures

And first Unit of 50 gobbos archers 10 wide is almost done... if half of the rank behind the 2nd shoots thats a total of 35 gobbo arrows if the rumours prove to be false its just a cool fat unit to look at.

Well, sad to say but I'm bowing out.

The one thing that I thought this edition was really going to have going for it was killing herohammer with 25% max characters. As it now seems you can have 50% I'll be taking my business elsewhere.

After all if I want a game which is all about uber-characters whacking each other with token support from the rest of the army, I'll just play Hordes...

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Well, sad to say but I'm bowing out.

The one thing that I thought this edition was really going to have going for it was killing herohammer with 25% max characters. As it now seems you can have 50% I'll be taking my business elsewhere.

After all if I want a game which is all about uber-characters whacking each other with token support from the rest of the army, I'll just play Hordes...

Haha I couldnt agree more... Although Im now bowing out till I see official rules... This is a fairly large scale game and should be more about the core army and not a few guys in cooler looking gear...

H.B.M.C. wrote:I heard the book was going to be a monolithic 500 page tome. Don't know if that's been repeated elsewhere, or accurate, but it's what I heard.

I can confirm it as I have seen the official GW poster advertising it.
And much of the space is for full colour pictures.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I'm going to spam units of skink cohorts.

So nothing new since 6th edition?

Therion wrote:Not a bad idea I guess. I'm thinking that if armour piercing stay as is I'd take a few 20 strong DE xbow units that fire with every model from 2 ranks of 10 models and if necessary reform to 4 ranks of 5 for combat, and support them with a few 10 strong (2 ranks of 5) xbow units that shoot with every model all the time. Something like 80 of these guys should be good.

Which leaves me every time I look at an army with decent shooting (Empire, HEs, DEs, now Lizzies, Wood elves especially, Tomb kings) I always end up with somewhere in the vicinity of 100-160 archers/x-bows/handguns/javelins and then warmachines as well at 2000 points and above.

2 ranks just opens up shooting spam.

Fast cav get a free move pre game- who cares? They can't charge turn 1 if they do that so your gunline is safe, and they will be so far forward they will be left unsupported and get blown away from 1-2 units of shooters.

skyth wrote:Actually, get rid of the re-casting ability of Vampire spells and most of the problem goes away.

The reason they gave the recasting ability to necromantic spells was because in 6th edition it was way too easy to just save scrolls for the important raising or movement spells that Vampire armies need to function and screw over their battle plans. Most Vampire lists require magic effects and when you can just load up on scroll caddies and dispel dice you need some way to force through something. There's few ways to just "turn off" Empire shooting or Chaos close combat so Vampires need something to get their magic phase. In addition now that Invocation only raises D6 models it would be crippling if that was a one time cast.

A more fair compromise (since I admit raising lists are unfun to play against) would make spells have a raised casting value for every successful cast so that it would be harder to just spam raise on 1D6 over and over. Additionally Van's Dance should not be a 7 since that is way too cheap for a movement spell. If it was a high casting value and required 3 dice to get off reliably, recasting it wouldn't be as easy. I don't know why people still complain about Vampire Counts since they aren't even top tier anymore.



In regards to 8th edition with 25% heros, 25% lords, MR adding to ward save, all range firing in two ranks and breath weapons hitting in combat I'm going to get some serious schadenfreude when the current top armies continue to destroy everyone else and people who thought that we'd be back to infantry being useful are super dissapointed. Unless something big is missing from the puzzle everything here strengthens most top tier lists with the exception of the Engine spam lizardmen armies.

The funniest part of 25% Lord 25% hero is that is allows armies with absurdly expensive Lord choices (Vampire, Demons, etc) that people complain about to have a higher percentage of their armies as characters that ones with cheaper Lords.

Can you take multiple Lords within that percentage? I didn't think so, but since I keep hearing there are no "slots" anymore, I'm not sure?

I think there must be something to limit the number of characters, other than percentages... even if it's only in the erratas for each army book.

RiTides wrote:Can you take multiple Lords within that percentage? I didn't think so, but since I keep hearing there are no "slots" anymore, I'm not sure?

I think there must be something to limit the number of characters, other than percentages... even if it's only in the erratas for each army book.

I think percentages means that multiple Lords are possible. This is great for Skaven (2000pts) as you could have a Warlord for your proper army general, but also a Grey Seer to throw out some proper hard hitting magic rather than a load of warp lightning engineers. You could also take an unusual lord like Throt the Unclean whose benefits don't outweigh the absence of a proper leader and then provide a decent general from your allowance.

No Kroak in 2000pts lists though

Which is why they want us to 'start' playing at 3000 points Flashman.

They just reset the 'average game' higher so you can still take all the OTT stuff.

With all this talk of 3,000 point armies, what's this going to mean for new players or players hoping to get back into WHFB? Do you think there will be special rules for fighting smaller points cost games or would that be the aim of the boxed set that's coming later this year?

@ Gonads - Kroak can just about squeeze into 2500pts, but yes armies with Lord choices costing more than 500pts are going to feel a little non-plussed at having their minimum army size upped by 500-1000pts.

Not a massive problem for my rats though (which at the rate I paint, would never get to 3000pts!).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bloodwin wrote:With all this talk of 3,000 point armies, what's this going to mean for new players or players hoping to get back into WHFB? Do you think there will be special rules for fighting smaller points cost games or would that be the aim of the boxed set that's coming later this year?

Lower point games will still be playabe, but it just means there might not be as much hard hitting stuff in your games. Although ironically with 25% Lords, you could pop a high level Wizard into most 1000pt lists.

The funniest part of 25% Lord 25% hero is that is allows armies with absurdly expensive Lord choices (Vampire, Demons, etc) that people complain about to have a higher percentage of their armies as characters that ones with cheaper Lords.

I don't understand this. The stock Vampire Lord supported by a regen-banner Wight King and the stock secondary Vampire cost something like 900 points and these are just 3 characters without monstrous mounts. They're approaching the 50% on heroes mark.

The only thing that will be new is the option to use tons of small heroes as somewhat improved unit champions. I see no problems with this as none of the heroes in question are particularly strong or particularly worrying in the new system. Seriously, I will spend my points on scoring units that can kill instead of killing units that can't score. If you disagree with that approach atleast reconsider arguing that the exact opposite approach to mine is a brokenly overpowered one. The spam of heroes being totally garbage and underpowered sounds much more likely.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Well, sad to say but I'm bowing out.

The one thing that I thought this edition was really going to have going for it was killing herohammer with 25% max characters. As it now seems you can have 50% I'll be taking my business elsewhere.

After all if I want a game which is all about uber-characters whacking each other with token support from the rest of the army, I'll just play Hordes...

This sums up my thoughts on the new version I was very happy with the rumor changes until this came out.

Yeah, looks like I may be leaving the game and sticking with Warmachine & Hordes.

I've been not liking WHFB much lately as it is, and these changes don't do much to make me want to come back.

Therion wrote:

The funniest part of 25% Lord 25% hero is that is allows armies with absurdly expensive Lord choices (Vampire, Demons, etc) that people complain about to have a higher percentage of their armies as characters that ones with cheaper Lords.

I don't understand this. The stock Vampire Lord supported by a regen-banner Wight King and the stock secondary Vampire cost something like 900 points and these are just 3 characters without monstrous mounts. They're approaching the 50% on heroes mark.

The only thing that will be new is the option to use tons of small heroes as somewhat improved unit champions. I see no problems with this as none of the heroes in question are particularly strong or particularly worrying in the new system. Seriously, I will spend my points on scoring units that can kill instead of killing units that can't score. If you disagree with that approach atleast reconsider arguing that the exact opposite approach to mine is a brokenly overpowered one. The spam of heroes being totally garbage and underpowered sounds much more likely.

I guess I am still thinking in the 1 Lord 3 hero for 2k mindset. If you are allowed to spam as many lords as you want then you will be able to take more advantage of that 25%. However taking tons of scoring units won't be as amazing when you are shooting them off the field with artillery. I guess the game could turn into a stream of crappy cheap scoring units hoping that enough survive the shooting phase to jump on that objective but that sounds incredibly un-fun to play.

This is mainly for the UK, but I'm guessing overseas will get this as well..

The new edition of Warhammer is released on 10th July. But, from Tuesday 15th June your local Hobby Centre will be running loads of exciting introductory and demonstration games for you to take part in using the brand new rulebook.

Introductory Games
If you've never played Warhammer before, introductory games are a fantastic way to learn about the ultimate Game of Fantasy Battles. You'll experience the rules in an exciting way and quickly get into the heart of the action.

In Warhammer you will: Command huge units of infantry and cavalry, use artillery batteries to smash your opponent into the ground, unleash towering monsters to strike fear into the hearts of your adversaries, and lay waste to whole armies with powerful magic.

Demonstration Games
If you've played Warhammer before, a demonstration game will provide you with a great opportunity to learn all about the new edition.

Find out how to tip the balance in your favour, encounter new threats on the battlefield, and rediscover the arcane secrets of sorcery. This is a world where victory and death rest upon a knife-edge and the fate of the world, be it damnation or salvation, will soon be decided.

Warhammer, the Game of Fantasy Battles is released on July 10th, but don't wait until then: get down to your local store from 15th June and let battle commence.

linky

Very interesting.

I laugh at those who say they are bowing out when they haven't seen the actual rulebook.

reds8n wrote:This is mainly for the UK, but I'm guessing overseas will get this as well..

The new edition of Warhammer is released on 10th July. But, from Tuesday 15th June your local Hobby Centre will be running loads of exciting introductory and demonstration games for you to take part in using the brand new rulebook.

Introductory Games
If you've never played Warhammer before, introductory games are a fantastic way to learn about the ultimate Game of Fantasy Battles. You'll experience the rules in an exciting way and quickly get into the heart of the action.

In Warhammer you will: Command huge units of infantry and cavalry, use artillery batteries to smash your opponent into the ground, unleash towering monsters to strike fear into the hearts of your adversaries, and lay waste to whole armies with powerful magic.

Demonstration Games
If you've played Warhammer before, a demonstration game will provide you with a great opportunity to learn all about the new edition.

Find out how to tip the balance in your favour, encounter new threats on the battlefield, and rediscover the arcane secrets of sorcery. This is a world where victory and death rest upon a knife-edge and the fate of the world, be it damnation or salvation, will soon be decided.

Warhammer, the Game of Fantasy Battles is released on July 10th, but don't wait until then: get down to your local store from 15th June and let battle commence.

linky

Yeah my local US store has already said that the 15th is when they are allowed to start demos.

Flashman wrote:@ Gonads - Kroak can just about squeeze into 2500pts, but yes armies with Lord choices costing more than 500pts are going to feel a little non-plussed at having their minimum army size upped by 500-1000pts.

Not a massive problem for my rats though (which at the rate I paint, would never get to 3000pts!).

Dipping is your friend(mine at least). Also, if you have the time, participate in the occasional 24 hour painting challenges on site like UnderEmpire(we should do a Dakka one...).

I'm hoping there's still a point value limit on Lords, though I wouldn't mind fielding a near naked Grey Seer at 1000 points.

I like how this edition is sounding.

Two Beastlords, two blocks of bestigors.

Four Wargors, 4 blocks of Gors.

1 Jabberslythe.

Heh.

It doesn't seem to have been posted yet, but there's 8 pages of the new rulebook in the latest GW newsletter.

Which newsletter was that? I've not seen it, and I usually get them on time.

This one..

Since we announced the new edition of Warhammer back in April, the excitement has been slowly building. Across the land hobbyists have begun gathering their forces in preparation of the mighty battles that lie ahead; in hushed whispers they've talked about what might lie within the 528-pages of the new Warhammer rulebook. Well prepare to ramp your excitement up a notch - Warhammer will be available to advance order from the 15th of June. Inspired by the clockwork creations of the engineers of Altdorf, we've today added a swish countdown clock to games-workshop.com, so you'll know exactly how many minutes and seconds to go before you can order your copy.

To thank you for subscribing to our newsletter (these images won't be shown anywhere else!) we thought we'd give you a sneak peek inside the new book. And don't forget that June's issue of White Dwarf is out this weekend and contains more exclusive information and pictures from the new Warhammer rulebook.

Enjoy.

I want that terrain SO badly.

Well now's the time to start looking for incoming new terrain, or at least the prototypes of new terrain.

5th Ed 40K book had a number of terrain pieces that didn't see release for years (ruined Aquila, the statue, prototype Bastion, the defensive line/Autocannon turret).

Damn those jpegs are too low res to read. What's the point?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well now's the time to start looking for incoming new terrain, or at least the prototypes of new terrain.

5th Ed 40K book had a number of terrain pieces that didn't see release for years (ruined Aquila, the statue, prototype Bastion, the defensive line/Autocannon turret).

I know, and those mountains and towers look so sleek and well-tooled. I want them very much.

So, has anyone spotted the countdown on the GeeDub homepage? 19 Days, 22 hours and some minutes as of this writing.

I wanna know what comes with each version so badly...

The layout of the pages looks very enjoyable.
Maybe its just for the picture but those regiments do look very fat indeed

I enlarged the first page in power point. The writing is blurry, but you can just about read it. The special rules for Battle for the Pass read something like this...

"The battle is being fought in a narrow pass ??? by high cliffs. Because of this the long table edges count as impassable terrain. Following the normal rules, Flying Units can ??? find a route through the impassable terrain (or die trying!). Other units (including reinforcements) may not enter or leave via a long table edge unless they are Ethereal or a Flyer. This ??? that pursuing or overrunning units, other than Ethereals or Flyers, must stop 1" away from the long table edges."

Kind of like the idea of a spirit host emerging from the cliff face, a bit like in the extended cut of Return of the King.

hmm... see scenario 3 http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/files/gw924_tos_pack-war.pdf

and the "clarifications" here :
http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/files/microsoft-word---wh-tos-grand-tournament-house-rules-update-23.10.09.pdf

Awesome.

Simply awesome.

I hope my Children of Chaos are treated like this as well.

I love the timer that they put on the Warhammer page on the GW site, looks really cool.

Also, the Invasion of Chrace scenario has page references for the Elven Watchtower and Elven waystone. Not sure, but that seems to mean that there will be rules for specific building types, which is kind of cool.

Karon wrote:Awesome.

Simply awesome.

I hope my Children of Chaos are treated like this as well.

I love the timer that they put on the Warhammer page on the GW site, looks really cool.

Indeed it does.
I was looking into GW site and just checked the new articles about assembling and painting the new Trolls, very nice kits.

Main thing I noticed is that Victory Points were kept for at least one mission type.

Can anyone read the text from those pictures??? I'm trying to zoom in / enlarge here, but it's too fuzzy... I think when I get home I might be able to press my face against the PC screen and read it.

Edit: Wow, nice PDF reds8n! Where did you get that? It certainly didn't come with the email I received...

Edit2: Wow, lots of victory points! And for objectives, "scoring units" are mentioned a number of times, with this description: "Scoring Units: (Used for all scenarios): A Scoring Unit must have at least unit strength of five or more. It may not be a single model, Monsters and Handlers, Fliers or raised/summoned units. Characters joined to units do not
count when calculating victory points or unit strength.."

Take that, "must have a banner to claim objectives" rumor! Mwahah! Mwahhahaha! My army might still be viable...

The scoring requirement is likely different from what they used in the GT

Hm, that "do not count toward unit strength" has me wondering: Are the days gone that characters contributed to "can you rally" but not original size of the unit?

Oh, I see... that document is just the way they currently play it. But then why is "Scenario 3" in that PDF the same (or is it not?) as "Battle 3" in the Games Workshop email?

I guess they may have just based it off of it, but made changes... all the talk about "unit strength" and the like will probably be gone, since that may no longer work for the new edition. So maybe it doesn't bunk the rumors... gives me some hope, though!

No hope for you!

Especially since I'm not a fan of Wood Elves. In my opinion, they're not an army that should be in WFB...Something for the background, yes...But not in the game. They are too much of a guerilla-style army.

Someone else posted this on another forum i frequent from what he could decipher

BATTLE FOR THE PASS
Many of the kingdoms of the Warhammer world are separated by towering mountain ranges that can only be crossed at the occasional mountain pass. These narrow [unreadable] are of vital strategic importance and provide a defender with the perfect battleground to confront an invading army.

THE ARMIES
Each player chooses his force using the army list from a Warhammer Armies book to an agreed point limit agreed before the game.

THE BATTLEFIELD
Set up armies as described on page 142. It's worth keeping in mind when setting up the terrain that the battle will be fought down the length of the table, in a narrow pass with impassable mountains just off each of the table edges.

DEPLOYMENT
Roll off to see which player picks the half of the table they want to deploy in. The opponent deploys in the other half. Note that in this pitched battle the game is fought down the length of the table rather than accross the width, as shown in the deployment map below.

Units may be placed anywhere in their half that is more than 12" from the center line.

Players take it in turn to place units on the table, using the alternating unit method of deployment described on page 142.

FIRST TURN
Roll off after deployment to see which player receives the first turn. The player that finished deploying his army first adds +1 to the roll.

GAME LENGTH
The battle will last for six game turns or until a time limit agreed by the players is reached, whichever comes first.

VICTORY CONDITIONS
Use victory points to determine the winner of the battle as described on page 143.

SCENARIO SPECIAL RULES
Bottleneck
The battle is being fought in a narrow pass enclosed by high cliffs. Because of this, the long table edges count as impassable terrain. Following the normal rules, fleeing units are [unreadble] through the impassable terrain and disappear from the table (or die trying!) Other units (including reinforcements) may not enter or leave via a long table edge unless they are Ethereal or a Flyer. This means that pursuing or overrunning units other than Etherals and Flyers must stop 1" away from the long table edge.

skyth wrote:No hope for you!

Especially since I'm not a fan of Wood Elves. In my opinion, they're not an army that should be in WFB...Something for the background, yes...But not in the game. They are too much of a guerilla-style army.

Does it help that I play just the woods... not the elves? There are a few too many "elf" armies, imho (high, dark, wood...) and I'm not a huge fan of pointy-eared blokes (which is why I'm low on units with banners)... I do love my walking trees, though

Edit: Thanks for transcribing the page, FacelessMage! I wish this was one of the scenarios with objectives to see what the wording will be for units that can claim them, but this is still very helpful.

Great news all around! Scenarios look interesting, the layout is pretty and most importantly the scoring units don't have the banner or core requirement to them. All that was needed to fix standards afterall was that the enemy doesn't get a bonus 100VP for capturing them, and as far as I know the command models are rumoured to have additional positive effects on the units than just the combat resolution bonuses etc. Fantasy is looking better and better.

But also worse and worse.

I love the sound of 8th edition, and LOVE the move towards blocks (that's a big part of fantasy for me, blocks of troops), but there really are a lot of negative things.

Init. Order, movement rumors, 2 ranks to negate rank bonuses to say a few.

Does this mean we might yet see the return of seige game scenarios? And my FW Mammoth will actually be useful ingame?

Buttlerthepug wrote:Does this mean we might yet see the return of seige game scenarios? And my FW Mammoth will actually be useful ingame?

Mammoth is a bitch compared to a emperor fire dragon which for HE only takes 2 rare slots.
BTW I used one in a 1500 pt game once my friend hasn't forgiven me to this day.

FlammingGaunt wrote:

Buttlerthepug wrote:Does this mean we might yet see the return of seige game scenarios? And my FW Mammoth will actually be useful ingame?

Mammoth is a bitch compared to a emperor fire dragon which for HE only takes 2 rare slots.
BTW I used one in a 1500 pt game once my friend hasn't forgiven me to this day.

Lol I concur, Ive used both the mammoth and the chaos dragon in game... people dont like it when you spam fleshy abundance on them... I actually still want to get an emperor fire dragon and paint it like a pre chaos galruach...
But back OT, does anyone know if the sieges will be making an appearance? I didn't see any rumors on it and quite frankly the 6th ed rules dont work to well...

Buttlerthepug wrote:
But back OT, does anyone know if the sieges will be making an appearance? I didn't see any rumors on it and quite frankly the 6th ed rules dont work to well...

I've seen a few rumours stating it's in. And the 6th ed siege rules work just fine as long as you have the update PDF.

skyth wrote:No hope for you!

Especially since I'm not a fan of Wood Elves. In my opinion, they're not an army that should be in WFB...Something for the background, yes...But not in the game. They are too much of a guerilla-style army.

Good thing for us Wood Elf players that you're not in charge. What army do you play? Whatever it is, I don't think it should be in the game, just the background fluff.

Well, I play Warriors, Dark Elves, Empire, Orks, and Lizards. You'll take a big chunk out of the armies if you take those away (And they're mainstay armies also).

Wood elves have an entirely different warfare style (Basically Guerilla warfare) that isn't suited to a game about battles.

I don't know the system, but I would think that Flames of War doesn't have a 'French Partisan' army for much of the same reason.

skyth wrote:Well, I play Warriors, Dark Elves, Empire, Orks, and Lizards. You'll take a big chunk out of the armies if you take those away (And they're mainstay armies also).

That they're mainstay armies is irrelevant. They have an entirely different warfare style [massive points sunk into characters] that isn't suited to a game about battles. I don't know the system, but I would think that Flames of War doesn't have a Dark Elves army for much the same reason.

Yeah, really. Its the same as me saying "I don't like shooting, so all the armies capable of shooting should be gone"

Makes no sense.

And, if we only had mainstray armies, the game would be BORING. There would be no Skaven, Tomb Kings, Ogres, and maybe beastmen.

skyth wrote:Well, I play Warriors, Dark Elves, Empire, Orks, and Lizards. You'll take a big chunk out of the armies if you take those away (And they're mainstay armies also).

Wood elves have an entirely different warfare style (Basically Guerilla warfare) that isn't suited to a game about battles.

I don't know the system, but I would think that Flames of War doesn't have a 'French Partisan' army for much of the same reason.

Many lists are like that, FJ and quite a few other lists play this way. No tanks or artillery, light on anti tank. US at least has bazookas.

They have an entirely different warfare style [massive points sunk into characters] that isn't suited to a game about battles. I don't know the system, but I would think that Flames of War doesn't have a Dark Elves army for much the same reason.

That would be a tiger company. Massive unkillable point sink. It loses in the rock/paper/scissors contest to US infantry with lots of bazookas.)

Back on topic: I find the rumors interesting, but will reserve judgement until the new books hit stores as preview copies in a couple of weeks. Too many small glimpses and not the whole picture.

Just FYI, I'm mostly teasing about the Wood Elves

Though generally I don't find playing against them all that much fun *shrugs* Personal preference thing and all.

I still like to game with the 2nd. edd. Rules. The army book had ALL the Armys in it too..
'ahh good times, good times...'
My Warhammer armys book is kinda falling apart, would anyone know where i can pick up another?

But for the New rules.. Not too bad, i game Dwarfs, so its ok i guesss.. But not so many cannons for the new rules..
'Wipes tears..'

Init. Order, movement rumors, 2 ranks to negate rank bonuses to say a few.

The movement rumours sound weird I agree but I'll reserve judgment before I see the actual rules in print. However, fighting combats in initiative order and solo monsters and small units not negating rank bonuses are both wonderfully good changes.

Fighting in initiative order a wonderful good change? Hogwash! Where's the advantage to charging for the vast majority of units? You gonna give them +1A, like 40k? Oh, that's gonna keep us from building character delivery system lists!
A for needing a rank bonus to negate ranks, one more nail in the coffin of fast cavalry. Are you telling me that 10
weedy little goblins poking at the side of a block of infantry
is more disconcerting and disruptive than 5 heavily armoured knights charging in on barded slathering chaos steeds?
Well, we'll wait and see if it's Warhammer 40k with square bases.

Any pics of the new models that come in the starter box? I could honestly care less about the rules :p

Yeah, really, Therion. Both of those changes are really terrible. They make no sense.

Though, I'm surprised I haven't seen a rumor about how spears gain ASF when charged. Makes a lot of sense, as when you charge a unit with spears, they push them right as you come into them, skewering you 2 feet away.

Durzod wrote: Fighting in initiative order a wonderful good change? Hogwash! Where's the advantage to charging for the vast majority of units? You gonna give them +1A, like 40k? Oh, that's gonna keep us from building character delivery system lists!

Man (I assume) has a point. There had better be something to compensate for this, or there is little point in charging to try and get the upper hand, a tactical level of play that will now be totally lost.

Durzod wrote:A for needing a rank bonus to negate ranks, one more nail in the coffin of fast cavalry. Are you telling me that 10
weedy little goblins poking at the side of a block of infantry
is more disconcerting and disruptive than 5 heavily armoured knights charging in on barded slathering chaos steeds?

Probably not, but heavy cav needed a nerf. Agree about the fast cav though.

As for the rumours in general, I liked them, until I heard that the character percentage is up to 25% lord, and a separate 25% heroes (whaddaya mean, let's nerf herohammer?), so up to 25%, and that some of the rules supposed to nerf the uber-heavy cav unitspam that I see too much of don't actually nerf them.
Magic gave me rather a meh feel with the highest to caster, lowest to dispeller thing - I don't like it.

Charging is just +1 Combat Resolution now, which - for some armies - won't make much a difference as they quickly lose it to the faster enemy causing two-or-more wounds than they would this edition if you got to strike first.

I-order is good for high-initiative combat armies (Dark Elves, High Elves, Forest Spirit, Daemons (?), Warriors of Chaos), and less-so for armies such as Orcs & Goblins, Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Ogres, and so on. The biggest loss, however, is that many Great Weapon units have been rendered obsolete: Iron Guts, for instance, relied on the fact that they were getting some 12-15 S6 attacks before you could strike (in addition to their 4-5 impact hits) to reduce attacks back against their WS3, T4, 5+ save, static-res one. Without that now, and the addition of two-rank fighting, stuff like Iron Guts or Bestigors are much less useful.

I agree on the GW wielding part....it really hurts my bestigors.

I KNOW I'm going to have to buy a whole new set of movement trays and consolidate my blocks into larger ones after 8th edition.

Ugh.

Minsc wrote:Charging is just +1 Combat Resolution now, which - for some armies - won't make much a difference as they quickly lose it to the faster enemy causing two-or-more wounds than they would this edition if you got to strike first.

I-order is good for high-initiative combat armies (Dark Elves, High Elves, Forest Spirit, Daemons (?), Warriors of Chaos), and less-so for armies such as Orcs & Goblins, Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Ogres, and so on. The biggest loss, however, is that many Great Weapon units have been rendered obsolete: Iron Guts, for instance, relied on the fact that they were getting some 12-15 S6 attacks before you could strike (in addition to their 4-5 impact hits) to reduce attacks back against their WS3, T4, 5+ save, static-res one. Without that now, and the addition of two-rank fighting, stuff like Iron Guts or Bestigors are much less useful.

What's really funny are the people that think this edition isn't going to make the current power armies even better and the crummier armies that much worse.

Its rumors, Ixquic. Some more-powerful armies are going to get nerfed, such as Vampire Counts. They will take a big hit.

So will Kairos Tzeentch circus lists, those will take a huge hit.

So, you are wrong judging by the rumors.

@Ixquic

Tell that to my Dwarves who are salivating at the new edition. The chance to on average gain 3" more than now on the charge. The ability to reform after driving someone off. The 2 ranks of extremely hard to kill models attacking. The ridiculous number of artillery that can be fielded alongside smashy units that will be able to fight now. Yep, a crummy army made crummier. And based on the rumors I'm actually excited for my Ogres.

@Hulksmash

I have to agree, Dwarfs are going to be so much more fun in 8th. Not to mention the no partials, thunderers in 2 ranks, and objectives that mean the enemy has to come to you to win!!! Unlimited dragon slayers may make them more playable as well.

Ogres I think are actually going to be good after 8th, which is an excellant indicator that unless they decide to nerf them on purpose... they will be in the upper half of the rankings after their books is updated.

To be fair, the "Ward or Regen" rumor being disproved does nothing to mitigate the staying power of Plague Bearers w/ Herald.

Durzod wrote: Are you telling me that 10
weedy little goblins poking at the side of a block of infantry
is more disconcerting and disruptive than 5 heavily armoured knights charging in on barded slathering chaos steeds?

The current rules say they're the AS disconcerting(both are exactly US10), so I don't think your logic there really stands up..

Platuan4th wrote:

Durzod wrote: Are you telling me that 10
weedy little goblins poking at the side of a block of infantry
is more disconcerting and disruptive than 5 heavily armoured knights charging in on barded slathering chaos steeds?

The current rules say they're the AS disconcerting(both are exactly US10), so I don't think your logic there really stands up..

This does not bother me I run my knights in units of 10 anyways and can run a huge block of them 10 wide 3 deep feel the pain weedy grots

sonofruss wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Durzod wrote: Are you telling me that 10
weedy little goblins poking at the side of a block of infantry
is more disconcerting and disruptive than 5 heavily armoured knights charging in on barded slathering chaos steeds?

The current rules say they're the AS disconcerting(both are exactly US10), so I don't think your logic there really stands up..

This does not bother me I run my knights in units of 10 anyways and can run a huge block of them 10 wide 3 deep feel the pain weedy grots

Fine, but when you run your 10-man unit of Knights and lose model, you also lose the ability to break ranks, which is something those 10 weedy goblins would be able still do.

Alll this worry about charging.

On the current rumours I'm having shooting spam lists (120-160 archers at 2000 points for most armies then add the warmachines) so charging will be the least of my worries.

I do think that chargers go first should have stayed, but its not like the designers don't playtest?

Right?
Guys?

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Alll this worry about charging.

On the current rumours I'm having shooting spam lists (120-160 archers at 2000 points for most armies then add the warmachines) so charging will be the least of my worries.

I do think that chargers go first should have stayed, but its not like the designers don't playtest?

Right?
Guys?

Which makes a lot of sense, considering. There's a reason armies moved towards MORE ranged weapons and not less. Melee just isn't as reliable.

Scottywan82 wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Alll this worry about charging.

On the current rumours I'm having shooting spam lists (120-160 archers at 2000 points for most armies then add the warmachines) so charging will be the least of my worries.

I do think that chargers go first should have stayed, but its not like the designers don't playtest?

Right?
Guys?

Which makes a lot of sense, considering. There's a reason armies moved towards MORE ranged weapons and not less. Melee just isn't as reliable.

I think it had more to with black powder. Muskets do more hurting than swords.

So is the Warhammer Fantasy World experiencing a "Industrial Revolution" of sorts? Less focused on melee combat and more on ranged?

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Alll this worry about charging.

On the current rumours I'm having shooting spam lists (120-160 archers at 2000 points for most armies then add the warmachines) so charging will be the least of my worries.

I do think that chargers go first should have stayed, but its not like the designers don't playtest?

Right?
Guys?

This is pretty much what I'm really worried about breaking the game but I'm hoping that the scenarios balance it out or we're missing some part of the rules puzzle.

Minsc wrote:I-order is good for high-initiative combat armies (Dark Elves, High Elves, Forest Spirit, Daemons (?), Warriors of Chaos), and less-so for armies such as Orcs & Goblins, Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Ogres, and so on.

I play forest spirits, and am torn on this. It will be great for dryads, but not-so-much for treekin/treemen (with initiative 2 and 1 I think, off the top of my head)...

I guess I should have been a bit clearer about the weedy goblin bit, but it was late and us old guys lose coherency.
Let's look at it this way:
You have a block of, say,50 dwarves. They are engaged with an enemy block of similar size. Those dwarves not engaged in the fighting are helping to push their comrades forward (if you read your history, this is exactly how Greek Hoplites fought) in an effort to force the enemy back. (This is where the rule about rank bonus comes from)
Now you have two siuations come up.
Situation#1: 10 unarmoured infantry troopers(let's say they are weedy little goblins with sharpened sticks)attack the flank. Suddenly ALL the dwarves not actively fighting to the front throw up their hands in consternation and forget their duty to their comrades in the face of this dire threat.(They lose their rank bonus because the flanking unit has a rank bonus.)
Situation #2: 5 heavily armoured cavalry troopers, mounted on BIG heavy animals, who are also armoured, and armed with LONG lances slam at a gallop into the flank. The dwarves on that flank tell their comrades to,"Carry on lads. We can handle this." Trusting in their comrades, the majority of the dwarves continue to push forward. (they do not lose their rank bonus)
In both situations the flanking unit is US 10. Can you seriously say that this is right? Have you ever faced a cavalry charge? I haven't, but I've been around horses. I'm over 6 feet tall, but horses are BIG. Just standing there they're BIG. Moving they seem even bigger. God knows how big they look at the charge with some crazed loon with a spear on their backs. There's a reason cavalry was dominant for so long.

I see your point Durzod, and it makes sense.

I think what your saying is that Heavy Cavalry only needs one rank to take away rank bonuses, while non-heavy cavalry, need two ranks, yes?

Durzod wrote:Have you ever faced a cavalry charge? I haven't, but I've been around horses. I'm over 6 feet tall, but horses are BIG. Just standing there they're BIG. Moving they seem even bigger. God knows how big they look at the charge with some crazed loon with a spear on their backs. There's a reason cavalry was dominant for so long.

Indeed, this is why Heavy Cavalry at least should do impact hits, but this rumours of this seemed to disappear. Now it looks like only monster sized creatures will do impact hits *sigh*

Grimstonefire wrote: Unlimited dragon slayers may make them more playable as well

Ugh. I know these guys can die easily, but holy crap do I hate having to face even one of them (Totally blame the S3 of elves). Seriously, though, Dwarves are getting nice boosts all around with all these rumors.

My skaven are reeealllyyy looking forward to the new rumors.

Lots arent, but i wasnt one of those bell, furnace, furnace, HPA, HPA, 3 units of slaves TFG.

I think the money skaven army is going to be a lots of poison wind mortars backed up by plague claw catapults. No guess along with no partials is going to be insane.

Ixquic wrote:I think the money skaven army is going to be a lots of poison wind mortars backed up by plague claw catapults. No guess along with no partials is going to be insane.

Yeah, but I really have my doubts about removing guess weapons. Imagine a few lucky rolls, if the you hit head on and dont scatter with 2-3 war machines you could quite possible wipe out half their army...

ShivanAngel wrote:

Ixquic wrote:I think the money skaven army is going to be a lots of poison wind mortars backed up by plague claw catapults. No guess along with no partials is going to be insane.

Yeah, but I really have my doubts about removing guess weapons. Imagine a few lucky rolls, if the you hit head on and dont scatter with 2-3 war machines you could quite possible wipe out half their army...

Most people can guess fairly accurately. This only affects GOOD guessers who play against BAD guessers really

Karon--
Close but no cigar. What I was trying to sat was that the requirement for a rank bonus to break ranks makes no sense. In both cases the attacking units had the same US, but only the infantry breaks ranks, not the cavalry. If the idea is to keep fast cav from sweeping around the flanks to disadvantage those big expensive blocks of infantry, then increase the required US to 10. Most fast cav units can't take many casualties (if any) and still be US10.
Just thought of another ludicrous situation:
Say our dwarves are engaged with a block of Eternal Guard, Suddenly they are assaulted in the flank by 25 Wild riders set up in a 5x5 formation. Being fast cav, they get no rank bonus. So despite having the same US as the dwarves they don't break ranks.
I can see this change eliminating close combat Wood Elf armies. With only 2 units getting rank bonuses, the only way for them to stop an enemy will be shooting. Even the English longbowmen at Agincourt required the support of the armoured knights.

Kirasu wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

Ixquic wrote:I think the money skaven army is going to be a lots of poison wind mortars backed up by plague claw catapults. No guess along with no partials is going to be insane.

Yeah, but I really have my doubts about removing guess weapons. Imagine a few lucky rolls, if the you hit head on and dont scatter with 2-3 war machines you could quite possible wipe out half their army...

Most people can guess fairly accurately. This only affects GOOD guessers who play against BAD guessers really

The thing is good guessers can accurately hit a unit, that's not really a problem. What removing guessing will do is allow people to center the template perfectly on a unit as to cover the maximum amount of fulls and partials. Look at the example in the 7th edition book where their 3" template covers pretty much the entire unit. Guessing balanced this out a bit since usually unless you were some kind of prodigy you were off a half inch or so from the perfect hit even if you were very accurate.

Yeah no guessing is just insane.

New skaven list

tons of clanrats with poisoned wind mortars, probably 4-5

2 catapults..

Yay i win first turn, 3/4 of your army panicked off the board!

ShivanAngel wrote:Yeah no guessing is just insane.

New skaven list

tons of clanrats with poisoned wind mortars, probably 4-5

2 catapults..

Yay i win first turn, 3/4 of your army panicked off the board!

And the reason you can't do this in 7th ed is...? (if one is good at measuring distances)

Seriously, how reliable are these rumors? I'm old enough to have seen GW change a lot of the years, and although some of their business methods in recent times have been questionable, I cannot beleive that they will morph Fantasy into another version of 40k. I hope that myself, and everyone else on this site is left with egg on our faces when the new book comes out.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Seriously, how reliable are these rumors? I'm old enough to have seen GW change a lot of the years, and although some of their business methods in recent times have been questionable, I cannot beleive that they will morph Fantasy into another version of 40k. I hope that myself, and everyone else on this site is left with egg on our faces when the new book comes out.

I keep telling myself that but with it being unknown it does put a lot of stress on it. More than a game where you play with plastic models should but nonetheless.

Chaoslord wrote:

And the reason you can't do this in 7th ed is...? (if one is good at measuring distances)

Ixquic wrote:
The thing is good guessers can accurately hit a unit, that's not really a problem. What removing guessing will do is allow people to center the template perfectly on a unit as to cover the maximum amount of fulls and partials. Look at the example in the 7th edition book where their 3" template covers pretty much the entire unit. Guessing balanced this out a bit since usually unless you were some kind of prodigy you were off a half inch or so from the perfect hit even if you were very accurate.

There is no way people are so good that they can maximize hits like you can by just placing reliably.

Actually, some people practice at it and ARE that good.

Being able to guess range to the 1/16 of an inch isn't an ability 99% of the gaming audience has and just because some people are Rainman doesn't mean that it should be removed to make it easier without some kind of balancing effect. I've heard from someone that may or may not have the book that the HIT might be ignored on scattering templates which might negate this somewhat (but then we are back to them being less than useful) so who knows.

Just realized something: If "M+2D6" charges" are true, does this invalidate pretty much every random-move unit? I say this, because now instead of 3D6 (or, in some cases [Snotling Pump Wagon], 2D6) being an average of 1"-4" over the typical M4 movement in functional charge range (with a potential for up to 6" advantage over M6 chargers), they are behind on an average roll of anything less than a 10, and that extends up to a 12 (or, essentially, on average they're now about as fast as typical infantry).

Considering a lot of these relied on getting the charge (often being Low Initiative and / or there just to tie-up an enemy unit by killing most models in base-to-base and then shouting "UNBREAKABLE!"), and now they're about as fast as infantry (funnily enough, a Hellpit Abomination on average is slightly slower than its Skaven underlings now), does this mean we're going to be seeing them less?

Well, regarding the Abomination I sure hope so. We'll see less of cavalry as well. Human heavy cavalry used to be 6" faster than human infantry on the charge, and now it's only 3" faster and doesn't benefit from all the new rules that infantry benefit from. On top of charge distances being totally random I personally would prefer high initiative ranked infantry units that strike first when charged but can still also pull off charges themselves while also peppering the enemy with ranged weapons.

Lothern Seaguard will be vicious in this edition. You charge me, I4, Stand and shoot with 3 1/2 ranks, fight back with all four. And I probably hit first.

That's just sick.

I'm not really caring all that much for the rumors. It's basically turning the game into a die rolling exercise.

Ixquic wrote:
The thing is good guessers can accurately hit a unit, that's not really a problem. What removing guessing will do is allow people to center the template perfectly on a unit as to cover the maximum amount of fulls and partials. Look at the example in the 7th edition book where their 3" template covers pretty much the entire unit. Guessing balanced this out a bit since usually unless you were some kind of prodigy you were off a half inch or so from the perfect hit even if you were very accurate.

There is no way people are so good that they can maximize hits like you can by just placing reliably.

Well, yes, you can certainly hit more models if you place the template perfectly, but the amount of hits doesn't really drop that much if you're an inch off when shooting a large infantry unit. When discussing 8th ed ratmen, if rumours hold true, there's gonna be more infantry around so that does make the plague catapult better, altough one should wait and see how LoS, cover and possible changes to warmachine rules are handled before going crazy over gunlines.

Chaoslord wrote:Well, yes, you can certainly hit more models if you place the template perfectly, but the amount of hits doesn't really drop that much if you're an inch off when shooting a large infantry unit.

The example was with a unit something like 25 or 30 big. It was 21 hits, including partials (which might be turning into full-hits). Dead-on hit will provide you with 21 hits because you only need to barely, barely, clip a corner of a base and it counts as a partial. Just moving about a half an inch can rob a person of four or more models.

Chaoslord wrote:altough one should wait and see how LoS,

Seemingly true, so if any War Machine crew can draw a straight line they see it.

Chaoslord wrote:cover

Does not affect Guess Weapons. If it were like 40K cover it would, but as it stands now a simple -1 or -2 to hit means diddly for guess weapons (which don't need to hit).

Chaoslord wrote:and possible changes to warmachine rules are handled before going crazy over gunlines.

If I had to guess, no-save is going away for Stone Throwers. That's all I can really think of. However, I am hoping that Bolt Throwers remain no-save instead of getting the Fanatic Treatment (We'll make them Armor Piercing, surely that change won't make a difference).

skyth wrote:I'm not really caring all that much for the rumors. It's basically turning the game into a die rolling exercise.

I'm getting some of this feeling, and I don't like it at all.

I really, REALLY don't like random charge distance.

Karon wrote:

skyth wrote:I'm not really caring all that much for the rumors. It's basically turning the game into a die rolling exercise.

I'm getting some of this feeling, and I don't like it at all.

I really, REALLY don't like random charge distance.

Agreed. More dice =/= better game.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Seriously, how reliable are these rumors? I'm old enough to have seen GW change a lot of the years, and although some of their business methods in recent times have been questionable, I cannot beleive that they will morph Fantasy into another version of 40k. I hope that myself, and everyone else on this site is left with egg on our faces when the new book comes out.

40k is their biggest seller. As a business wouldn't it make good business sense to make WHFB more like 40k to attract more players across and entice new players? And for those who say that if this is the case they will stop playing WHFB I would be amazed if 10% of you do actually stop playing as we like nothing better than a good moan but still carry on regardless...

Mick

What does =/= mean?

Minsc wrote:Does not affect Guess Weapons. If it were like 40K cover it would, but as it stands now a simple -1 or -2 to hit means diddly for guess weapons (which don't need to hit).

Well, cover not affecting non-bs weapons in 8th ed isn't written in stone yet (as in I haven't seen any rumours about it). We shall see if there are more mechanics taking cover into consideration.

In addition one drastic change to warmachines' survivability against ranged attacks is probably gonna be altered, combined profile with the crew. It's easier to take cannon out with small arms fire and magic missiles if there's no t7 bulk around to absorb the majority of hits.

UltraPrime wrote:What does =/= mean?

Does not equal/not equal to.

Mick A wrote:40k is their biggest seller. As a business wouldn't it make good business sense to make WHFB more like 40k to attract more players across and entice new players? And for those who say that if this is the case they will stop playing WHFB I would be amazed if 10% of you do actually stop playing as we like nothing better than a good moan but still carry on regardless...

Mick

If people stop playing without ever trying? I agree. However, if I try it and dislike it - seemingly becoming highly likely - I'll stop playing because - guess what? - I already have War of the Ring and Warhammer 40K too. And if I need to shell out money to keep playing something, I'll do it either for the cheaper of the two to adapt to (WotR) or the one that most people in the store (See: 70%+) already play. GW's fethed when it comes to me as even within its same hobby it has competition that will just make me go "You know what, I don't feel like spending $150+ buying units I never even focused on to make my 6K points of Orcs have a chance of winning in non-Tourney games". If I play and the rumors turn out to be as game-breaking as they appear, I'm not going to shell out the $300+ for a new army or the $150+ to fix those I have. I'll just play their other games.

Still find it funny that people are trying to pull the "If you don't like it well then YOU'RE A HORRIBLE CHANGE-HATING PERSON" schtick too. Reeks of the GW business practice of trying to make people feel bad for wanting to know what's coming out in a few months.

We should have a lot of verified info over the next few days. I hear books are going out to store managers in the US.

From what I've heard so far, I can't quite tell if my orcs got better or worse overall. My Ogres easily got better. I'm thinking my two doom divers and 3 rocklobbers will now be coming out to play for a few games.)

Quite a few locals have come up with a solution that GW probably won;t like. If we don't like 8th ed, we'll just keep playing 7th. No need to buy new rules or army books. Take a break from tournaments (unless GW won't yank our local game store's access for running 7th ed tournaments) and hope GW does a better job with 9th ed. Only buy the models that esthetically appeal (which is how I got into the hobby in the first place).
Mike A's comment about making good business sense is missing the concept of target audiences. 40k has tanks, power armour, mega death rays, and all the other things you see in the popular movies. It's also easier to play (no concern about flanks, formations, minuses to hit or save, etc.). WFB appeals to those who like these aspects. Granted there are those of us who play both, but mostly because the games are different. Even the new cross over players around here are concerned about rumours they've heard.
I don't know about elsewhere, but I see gamers crossing over to WFB from 40k, not thge other way around. What's going to be their incentive if the games are the same?
GW has something in their rabid paranoia. We're on page 28 of comments about a product that won't hit the shelves for some time now. See, sometimes even a blind hog finds a truffle.

I'm not saying GW are right in doing this all I'm trying to get across is that they probably think its a good 'business' decision to make it more similar to 40k.

Mick

Looking forward to reading some reviews from folks who have read the book. I've not played Fantasy since the mid 90's, but am interested to see if this edition will be more to my liking.

Apparently staff are now allowed to tell customers what they've read; I've just had it confirmed that there are no partials on template weapons. So everyone that's getting ready to bring big blocks of infantry might want to really rethink that.

*just in case*

One thing I haven't had confirmed is if having 1 fear causing character in a unit is exactly the same as having an entire unit of fear causers. Kinda screws Vampire Counts since they are overpaying for goblins at that point but the entire edition feels funky right now so...

Ixquic wrote:Apparently staff are now allowed to tell customers what they've read; I've just had it confirmed that there are no partials on template weapons. So everyone that's getting ready to bring big blocks of infantry might want to really rethink that.

This is certainly a bit worrying, altough I'd really like to see the whole (new) warmachine rules and possible army errata to make a better judgement. I've heard rumours that breath weapons are one use only, though.

I called my GW store earlier today, and asked about 8th edition, and they said they can't tell anyone anything 'till the 15th of june.

So that is bs, all he said he could do is tease customers and discuss it a bit, but no revealing it.

My GW source is pretty reliable so I'm more willing to believe him. I'm not naming names in case he did something stupid but this guy is pretty good about shutting up when the company tells him to and never spreads rumors, only reports what he's allowed to say (and even that is very rare). I think your GW is more likely not to have gotten the memo yet.

Someone on warseer has volunteered to do a sticky of the rumoured errata changes for 8th. I said I would pass on anything I heard, so if anyone does know anything just post here or pm me please.

Asked at the Bunker last week, and the local GW today- still no whiff of them running demo games. Today they told me it definitely won't be before June 15th, when the book should be up for pre-order and it'll be in there to look at.

I'm jealous of those who have stores running the demos!

Edit: Also, the info in the White Dwarf was a major disappointment- basically just an ad for the new edition, no substance at all! Need....... more........... info...!

Terrain effects (if true) would be bizzare and a bit dumb. Why would you eat a load of mushrooms upon entering a forest? Who in their right mind does this in the middle of a battle?

Night Goblins, for one.

RiTides wrote:Edit: Also, the info in the White Dwarf was a major disappointment- basically just an ad for the new edition, no substance at all! Need....... more........... info...!

Remember when WH40K 4th Edition came out, and the WD articles had almost a dozen new / changed rules revealed at least a month before the new edition was released? Remember when GW was secure enough in that what they were doing wasn't going to piss off their customers that they felt they could actually provide information? I miss those days. :(

RiTides wrote: Also, the info in the White Dwarf was a major disappointment- basically just an ad for the new edition, no substance at all! Need....... more........... info...!

I expected that much when an Australian GW official announced the biggest GW marketing campaign ever for a GW product. Which is: They don't deny its existence before preorder date

Kroothawk wrote:

RiTides wrote: Also, the info in the White Dwarf was a major disappointment- basically just an ad for the new edition, no substance at all! Need....... more........... info...!

I expected that much when an Australian GW official announced the biggest GW marketing campaign ever for a GW product. Which is: They don't deny its existence before preorder date

Even more amazing, they are allowing people in stores to hint at what may be in the rules. As well as, *gasp*, some confirmed information, like it being a big book! Truly GW is pulling no blows for this edition!

Does anyone know if GW is putting out their own line of dice? Sounds like it with the apparent rampant randomness these rumors indicate. I can just see it now:
Movement Dice
Terrain Effects Dice
Fighting In The Woods Dice
Casting a Spell Dice
Dispel Dice
Anything Else We can Think of to Sell Dice

All different! All prominently emblazoned with the Games Workshop Logo! (un)Reasonably priced!

Demogerg wrote:Night Goblins, for one.

I said "right mind"

Flashman wrote:

Demogerg wrote:Night Goblins, for one.

I said "right mind"

The right half of a dismembered Night Goblin?

Durzod wrote:Does anyone know if GW is putting out their own line of dice? Sounds like it with the apparent rampant randomness these rumors indicate. I can just see it now:
Movement Dice
Terrain Effects Dice
Fighting In The Woods Dice
Casting a Spell Dice
Dispel Dice
Anything Else We can Think of to Sell Dice

All different! All prominently emblazoned with the Games Workshop Logo! (un)Reasonably priced!

You're about 4-6 years too late for this joke's translation to reality. Remember the 40K Vehicle Damage Dice(in collectible tins for 4 DIFFERENT RACES!) and Apocalypse Big Gun Dice?

I was trying until you reminded me. Thanks a lot, Gilligan!

Flashman wrote:

Demogerg wrote:Night Goblins, for one.

I said "right mind"

Whos to say they aren't the sane ones, and we are all crazy?

its all relative/based on perspective.

A huge list of updates I will try and copy into the first post tommorow. I did some tiny typo corrections that are not in the list below:


You have to take a minimum of 3 units, not including characters.

If you are playing games over 3000pts with allied forces, one general has to be nominated as the Grand General, who increases his leadership radius to 18".

Chaos Dwarfs are not in the book.

Failed Charge
• I think you only move the result of the D6's you rolled, you do not add on your basic movement.

Fliers
• While fleeing or pursuing, they move 3D6"

Reforming
• In the Remaining Moves phase, a unit with a musician may reform for free, as long as the unit passes a leadership test. You can shoot, but count as moving.

• Charging Skirmishers, you line up to them, not them to you.
• Skirmishers are NOT stubborn in a forest. I think this is Wood Elves only.

Lost Control chart:

Another result: All your wizards take a Str 6 hit with no armor saves
11-12 result: Your caster lose d3 wizard levels, and forgets that many spells.


Bound spells
• Bound spells are cast like normal spells now, but instead of your caster's power level, you add the level of the magic item. They do not roll on the Loss of Control table, the items are just destroyed if they roll the double 6. Bound abilities like the warrior priests they just forget the spell.

Lore of Fire

Special Bonus: If the enemy suffered a wound from a fire lore spell earlier this magic phase, the casting costs of Lore of Fire spells on the same target is lowered by d3, cumulative.

Lore of Metal
Basic Spell (name): D6 flaming hits, No armor saves allowed. casting value 10

Lore of Beasts
(name). Caster Buff. The level 6 beast spell has 2 (possibly 3 casting values). The caster BECOMES the creature, not summoned on any board edge etc.

At 16+
Mountain Chimera
S7 T7 W10, Fly, 4D6 attacks! complexity is 24. mage has to be on foot. Remains in play.


20+
Greater Fire Dragon
WS8 S8 T8 W8 A8 Ld9, breathweapon S5, scaly skin 2+, terror, fly. mage has to be on foot. Remains in play

Something for a Hydra as well, I don’t know any more about this.

Lore of Heavens
• 'Something' Razor (not sure of the name). Unit Buff. The units strength are their Ld stat.
• Several levels of Comet. It scales up.

Lore of Life

Special Bonus: Every time the caster successfully casts a spell from the Lore of Life he can restore a wound to one model within 12”

• Basic spell: Shooting -1 to hit modifier and -1 leadership. If the enemy didn’t use BS they are 4+ to shoot. 7+

Forest Lord: Magic missile attack to any enemy unit within 18" of a forest. Or D6 strength 5 hits or 2d6 strength 5 hits to a unit in the forest.

Regeneration (name?): Unit Buff. Regeneration (6+) to one unit within 12”

Master of Stone: Unit Buff. +2 Toughness to one unit. Casting value 8

Regrowth (name?). Unit Buff. One unit regains D3+1 wounds/models, just like invocation (champ first, then musician/standard, then rank and file. Characters are selected separately)

Throne of Vines: Caster Buff. If this is successfully cast it increases the effect of other lore of life spells made by the caster: Regeneration becomes 5+, Master of Stone becomes +4 Toughness!!!, Forest Lord all hits become Strength 6, Regrowth regains D6+1 wounds. Something for the 6th spell as well.

I heard something about an immunity to miscast on a 2+ for the lore of life, but I don’t know if this is their 6th spell, a remains in play caster buff.

Stone Thrower
• Reduced to S3(9), armour saves are allowed.


Make Way
• After charges, before even impact hits are done, a champion can move to the front of the attacked rank.


One Save..
I'm just going to move this back here again for now. Armour saves as normal, then either Ward Saves OR regeneration. This is coming from 1 person who has read the book, and another who has been very reliable in the past.

Crush them! or Stomp, one of these names. 1 rank only

Quick to Fire
• Pistols, thrown weapons, and blowpipes Dont suffer the -1 to hit while moving. These are also the only weapons you can stand and shoot with if the enemy charges you from within their basic movement range.


Fear and Terror: It may be you get to keep your full amount of attacks.

Frenzy
What I am hearing about this is that if the enemy is within Movement +12”, you have to take a leadership test. If you fail, you have to attack the closest target.

Mounts no longer are granted frenzy/hated/etc from riders.


Magic Resistance
• It seems magic resistance does not work at all against Curses (or Hexes), only against magic missiles, direct damage and power whirls.

Strider..(insert type of terrain)
• A new special rule. This allows you to treat the type of terrain in brackets as open terrain. For instance Strider (Forests). There is a plain Strider that allows you to treat everything as open terrain (presumably not buildings).

Regeneration
Flaming attacks play a much bigger role. People with flaming weapons cause Fear in War Beasts (hounds etc), chariots, and Monsters. When you have regeneration and are wounded by flaming attacks, you lose regeneration until the next phase (combat to combat for example).


Magic Items
Scarecrow: Banner. 5 Points, makes the unit cause fear to flyers.
(name?): Banner. Plain Strider, which means you ignore all terrain (except buildings I think).
Dispel Scroll: As normal.

There are some other Scrolls I keep hearing about, but I don't know the full details yet:
4+ ward against wounds done by the spell used.
Irresistible force on every double.
Something about turning someone into a frog..

Terrain
Cavalry treat all non-open terrain as Dangerous Terrain

Karon wrote:I called my GW store earlier today, and asked about 8th edition, and they said they can't tell anyone anything 'till the 15th of june.

So that is bs, all he said he could do is tease customers and discuss it a bit, but no revealing it.

Which means they know nowt. But even then, the Interwebs probably know less.

Trust nothing until you have the book in hand.

The one save thing is pretty nice, sounds like they are combining regeneration from 6th and 7th edition also. 6th edition once you got hit by a flaming attack you lost regen, now it just stops regen from being taken for that attack...

The frenzy thing doesnt make a lot of sense to me. Taking frenzied units is already dangerous, especially against a competent opponent. Ive had my plague furnace not do a thing cause it was run all over the board by fast calvary...

Grimstonefire wrote:A huge list of updates

No kidding!

Grimstonefire wrote:Something about turning someone into a frog..

A Bloodthirster of Khorne appears!

I use Frog curse!

*squish*

It's super effective!

Guys. Seriously. I'm in a position to know more, and I know *nothing*.

Rumours are rumours. Believe nothing until the book is in your hands.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Karon wrote:I called my GW store earlier today, and asked about 8th edition, and they said they can't tell anyone anything 'till the 15th of june.

So that is bs, all he said he could do is tease customers and discuss it a bit, but no revealing it.

Which means they know nowt. But even then, the Interwebs probably know less.

Trust nothing until you have the book in hand.

I meant that he does have the book in the store, and has read it 2-3 times, but he can't reveal anything but teasers to the customers.

Karon wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Karon wrote:I called my GW store earlier today, and asked about 8th edition, and they said they can't tell anyone anything 'till the 15th of june.

So that is bs, all he said he could do is tease customers and discuss it a bit, but no revealing it.

Which means they know nowt. But even then, the Interwebs probably know less.

Trust nothing until you have the book in hand.

I meant that he does have the book in the store, and has read it 2-3 times, but he can't reveal anything but teasers to the customers.

Karon, you do know MDG works at a GW store, right?

Wait, if any Tomb King rolls a double six for incantations they lose the incantation? That's... crap. I mean, I know it doesn't come up often, but that's still gak. It destroys a Casket of Souls one-in-36 uses, a lot lower if it uses 3D6 (I can't recall if a High Priest can use 3D6 or not).

EDIT: Reading more:
Stone Throwers are made S3 with no save modifiers? I mean, I know it's to counter the cheese Stone Throwers would become, but this counter almost does the reverse and makes them worthless. They'll only be useful in such a scenario against things with neither toughness nor saves - a typical Saurus unit is going to only lose one-in-six hit on average.

With Flaming changed, that's also reducing the effectiveness of some units. In this case, Trolls. Since Fire Attacks are going to be on the rise, Trolls are going to quickly lose their effectiveness as they go from 4+ save against most enemies to the tried & true "Brettonians fire single fire arrow now GO FORWARD TREBUCHETS & ALLIED BOLT-THROWERS!"

Show of hands: When you saw "Strider = Ignore Terrain", who didn't immediately imagine that someone from the WotR team had to go "They'll know we just copied it if we keep the name Pathfinder, what other names we have?"

Meh the regen thing kinda sucks, but back in 6th edition if they took a wound from a flaming attack they lost regen alltogether...

ShivanAngel wrote:Meh the regen thing kinda sucks, but back in 6th edition if they took a wound from a flaming attack they lost regen alltogether...

Huh, I forgot my reference to 6th Edition last post. My bad.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned Bretonnians specifically: Archer + Flaming Arrows = Turn 1 loss of Regen.

Platuan4th wrote:

Karon wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Karon wrote:I called my GW store earlier today, and asked about 8th edition, and they said they can't tell anyone anything 'till the 15th of june.

So that is bs, all he said he could do is tease customers and discuss it a bit, but no revealing it.

Which means they know nowt. But even then, the Interwebs probably know less.

Trust nothing until you have the book in hand.

I meant that he does have the book in the store, and has read it 2-3 times, but he can't reveal anything but teasers to the customers.

Karon, you do know MDG works at a GW store, right?

I did not.

I just want to be able to use my dogs of war models again...

The stonethrower piece makes sense, as not having to measure and no partials would make them way overpowered if they kept the current Str and no armor saves. Having it Str 9 under the hole works too, as that basically doesn't allow any armor saves anyways.

The magic phase has me somewhat worried, as alot of the spells seem really, really good. High casting values, but I guess that'll tie in with the whole "higher chance of losing control". I hope though that the .PDFs that are coming out for each army address some of the stuff though, as it would seem that lore of metal would be virtually useless against say a Steam Tank or High Elf Dragon Princes.

Quick question - is there a confirmation yet on if the # of choices is still the same (i.e. 4 specials allowed), or is it straight percentages with the "no more than 3 of the same kind of special"?

Still though - sounds interesting and not as bad as everyone was predicting.

Drake_Marcus wrote:I just want to be able to use my dogs of war models again...

You're not the only one...

So Lore of Beasts now lets you turn yourself into Chimeras and Dragons? O... K...

Mattbranb wrote:The stonethrower piece makes sense, as not having to measure and no partials would make them way overpowered if they kept the current Str and no armor saves. Having it Str 9 under the hole works too, as that basically doesn't allow any armor saves anyways.

It makes sense in a balance term, but makes absolutely no sense otherwise. Again, Styrofoam Boulders - make it have spikes or something to explain the S9 for the direct hit. While they are still scary for getting lots of hits, anything with an armor save is now pretty much secure - especially if it combines ward or regens with the armor. For example, Phoenix Guard will only take one wound for every six hit (3 wounds, 1 save, 1 ward). Anything T4 that can manage a 4+ save or better can also ignore 5/6th the hits (6 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save). The extra hits are now necessary to make up for the lack of strength and armor piercing, and the only things that Stone Throwers will remain as effective against are low-armor low-toughness enemies like Gnoblars, Skaven Slaves, Goblins, and Skinks.

On the plus side, this makes Skaven Plague Catapults so much more effective.

Mattbranb wrote:The magic phase has me somewhat worried, as alot of the spells seem really, really good.

Definitely. They have to give it an incentive if they're going to risk a high-strength Mortar being dropped on your wizard's head for a successful casting.

Mattbranb wrote:Still though - sounds interesting and not as bad as everyone was predicting.

Because most of the excessive nay-sayers have already packed shop. Until the new O&G book comes out, my 5-6K points are pretty much sitting on my shelf: The only rules that really helps them are the "More Ranks = Stubborn" (and that Stubborn may be combined with non-Stubborn characters) and the "Ignore panic when close to general" schtick. Every other rule change borders from neutral-bordering-negative to straight-up negative.

Flashman wrote:So Lore of Beasts now lets you turn yourself into Chimeras and Dragons? O... K...

In any game or what not whenever there is a lot of unknown information the rumors tend to get more outlandash the closer to release for some reason...

Well obviously in the new rules theirs going to be a law of necromancy in which you can summon undead dragos on a 3+ Also HE get +7 to all spell rolls in the new errata. XD

ShivanAngel wrote:

Flashman wrote:So Lore of Beasts now lets you turn yourself into Chimeras and Dragons? O... K...

In any game or what not whenever there is a lot of unknown information the rumors tend to get more outlandash the closer to release for some reason...

Indeed. Mayn of those 'updates' are downright ludicrous. A basic spell with a casting value of 10+? I don't think so...

Chimera one is true. Not sure about the dragon.

Also you have to factor in that you add your wizard level. So that basic spell is really an 8+ to a level 2 and a 6+ to a level 4.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

Flashman wrote:So Lore of Beasts now lets you turn yourself into Chimeras and Dragons? O... K...

In any game or what not whenever there is a lot of unknown information the rumors tend to get more outlandash the closer to release for some reason...

Indeed. Mayn of those 'updates' are downright ludicrous. A basic spell with a casting value of 10+? I don't think so...

Well according to the rumors you add your wizard level...

A level 4 will throw two dice at that and get it off 60 something percent of the time...

ShivanAngel wrote:

Flashman wrote:So Lore of Beasts now lets you turn yourself into Chimeras and Dragons? O... K...

In any game or what not whenever there is a lot of unknown information the rumors tend to get more outlandash the closer to release for some reason...

And yet there is precedence in previous additions, namely 'Transformation of Kadon' which turned the caster into a Manticore, if memory serves.

But once again folks (and I'm sure this is as needless as the first time!) trust nothing until you have the book in your hands!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

Flashman wrote:So Lore of Beasts now lets you turn yourself into Chimeras and Dragons? O... K...

In any game or what not whenever there is a lot of unknown information the rumors tend to get more outlandash the closer to release for some reason...

And yet there is precedence in previous additions, namely 'Transformation of Kadon' which turned the caster into a Manticore, if memory serves.

But once again folks (and I'm sure this is as needless as the first time!) trust nothing until you have the book in your hands!

Hasnt MDG already seen the book (seem to recall he works for GW).

If so i have a sneaking suspicion he trolls all the rumor threads on all the boards laughing his ass off at some of the rumors and how people are reacting to some of the crazier ones.

Hand on heart, I have not seen the book. At all. I have no idea what it even looks like.

Hence my air of caution about rumours.

Rumour or not, I like the idea of fire causing fear in animals. Neat touch that might sate my desire for fire to do something other than quaterise wounds and incinerate treemen.

Well indeed. Until today (new laptop for the win!) I've struggled to get online, so haven't kept up with the rumours.

But I do look forward to new Fantasy, more so if the changes coming are substantial, without messing with what makes me love the game itself. As long as how I play the game remains the same (roughly) I'll be happy with the challenge presented by a new edition. Some of the rumours I have discounted out of hand, others I feel there might be quite a lot of truth to. For example, the sheer size of the volume (twice as thick as the existing hardback) suggests lots of new things. Take for example the alleged return to percentage organised armies. I cannot help but wonder if this is true, but only for specific scenarios etc, as it goes against the existing grain of not messing with existing army books too much.

The promised Errata and FAQ's for Army Books has however piqued my interest somewhat, and I genuinely look forward to discovering exactly what it is that needs Errata and FAQ. Perhaps just the Lores Of Magic, perhaps it's almost going to be a downloadable army book (please don't read anything into this. I know *nothing* about the possible contents. And I am aware my continued denials suggest I am teasing and indeed do know what I'm on about, but trust me, I don't!)

Could it be.. that kroxigors might actually be useful for the first time ever? Of course the 1 krox in a unit of skinks was their only use, and thats being nerfed by taking away auto-break..

Id love a reason to use a unit of them.. Maybe stomp attacks will do it! Probably not tho

Kirasu wrote:Could it be.. that kroxigors might actually be useful for the first time ever? Of course the 1 krox in a unit of skinks was their only use, and thats being nerfed by taking away auto-break..

Id love a reason to use a unit of them.. Maybe stomp attacks will do it! Probably not tho

Probably not. 4+ save at T4 is decent, but WS3 and striking last still puts them at a disadvantage. They're better off than some units (Iron Guts, for example), but not by much.

They're always at a disadvantage.. maybe there will be a heavens spell that boosts them, we'll see

Now you have even more attacks targeting the skinks building up CR as well as the kroxigors unable to kill the front rank of the unit to protect them. Ranked skinks got much worse.

No they haven't. Until that book is in your hands, nothing has changed. At all.

Stop jumping to conclusions on what might as well be mindless conjecture to this point!

I know you keep saying that you haven't read the book or even seen it but this isn't the case for all GW employees. I don't want to get people in trouble so I'm going to stop there (no one has leaked anything to me personally in case the GW gestapo is reading) but you don't need to act like people are pulling these "rumors" out of nowhere unless your job is to give out books with faulty information to mine for leaks amongst staff or something.

Not trying to sound rude but I think these rules are pretty concrete.

Whereas I don't think they are at all.

The rumours of late haven't been terribly accurate, and whilst undoubtably some have seen the new book, those I have spoken to have been remarkably tight lipped.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not seeking to call anyone a liar, just saying don't trust rumours until you have seen it with your own two eyes. Chinese Whispers and that!

Minsc wrote:

Mattbranb wrote:The stonethrower piece makes sense, as not having to measure and no partials would make them way overpowered if they kept the current Str and no armor saves. Having it Str 9 under the hole works too, as that basically doesn't allow any armor saves anyways.

It makes sense in a balance term, but makes absolutely no sense otherwise. Again, Styrofoam Boulders - make it have spikes or something to explain the S9 for the direct hit. While they are still scary for getting lots of hits, anything with an armor save is now pretty much secure - especially if it combines ward or regens with the armor. For example, Phoenix Guard will only take one wound for every six hit (3 wounds, 1 save, 1 ward). Anything T4 that can manage a 4+ save or better can also ignore 5/6th the hits (6 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save).

One problem with your example. You're assuming only 6 hits. 1/3 of the time, you're going to hit every model in that unit. So, if that's 20 Phoenix Guard, it's 20 hits, not 6. You end up with more casualties simply by weight of dice. So, if you end up killing 3 or 4 Phoenix Guard, that's fine. It's going to be about equal to killing 15 clanrats.

To be fair Ixquic, he might need to give the "Not until it's in your hands" lip service. Some GW's are very serious about having pretty much nothing confirmed - I've had staff members who have held the book and told me "I saw it" still say "Don't believe it until it's in your hands". So, scarily enough, they might very well be releasing fake books to plug in 'leaks'.

Flashman wrote:Rumour or not, I like the idea of fire causing fear in animals. Neat touch that might sate my desire for fire to do something other than quaterise wounds and incinerate treemen.

Cauterize*

--------------------

None of these rumors except probably %'s are concrete Ixquic, thinking otherwise is false.

Flashman wrote:So Lore of Beasts now lets you turn yourself into Chimeras and Dragons? O... K...

Ya I'm a little worried now. O no my slann got charged o well time to shape shift into a giant dragon a kill the BT. Personally I don't think thats a good idea 7th edition lore of the beast worked fine.