my local store that stocks GW stuff has 3 copies of it, I feel bad for them that it didn't sell as it's one more thing on the shelfs.

If it was BFG then I would have been all over that so would all of my mates!

You're really not being reasonable, Chibi. You're looking at one aspect(the numbers aspect), and making a judgment based upon that.

Nope
I am being very reasonable.
The numbers on their own mean not a lot, but again if you say Dreadfleet is "limited edition", note those two words in a phrase together mean something very specific, then that suggests that the number of copies produced is going to be restricted.
The man on the Clapham Omnibus will assume that to mean there will be relatively few copies available. That in turn suggests that demand is potentially going to outstrip supply.
Therefore get in quick if you want one.

"Limited Edition" does NOT apply to a production run larger than most other box games as we have been informed is the case.
How in the name of reason am I being irrational? Are you suggesting that GW could have sold 200,000 copies, for example, and therefore 65,000 is indeed a limited production run?

Statements about copies still on the shelves suggests otherwise.

To say that this is limited edition based on the information given on this thread suggests very strongly that Dread Fleet is not in fact limited, ie a porkie pie was uttered by GW.
So I may reasonably think that GW have been duplicitous or else very bad at counting.

Having had a look at the models and the box, I am tempted, just can't reach the £70 price anytime soon >.<

I'm getting it tomorrow hopefully.

I got a ton of cash for my birthday last week.

I love ships,and navel battles.

It will be played alot by me and my friends.

While I like the idea, and the ships look cool, I just can't justify the $100+ price tag. I'd rather take up Battlefleet Gothic than Dreadfleet... Hmmmm... Battlefleet Gothic...

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
"Limited Edition" does NOT apply to a production run larger than most other box games as we have been informed is the case.

So what you're saying is that Space Hulk also wasn't limited edition, although you can't get it anywhere except on eBay for double the original price a mere 2 years after its oh-so-massive print run?

No. I am saying that the price of eggs these days is beyond a yoke.

Backfire wrote:

How many board games get played even 12 times? My cousin and I used to buy those Avalon Hills etc. strategy games and played them like twice each, at most. Nothing in those games can be used in another setting, none of the components make even display pieces.

None of those games cost $115 either.

augustus5 wrote:

Backfire wrote:

How many board games get played even 12 times? My cousin and I used to buy those Avalon Hills etc. strategy games and played them like twice each, at most. Nothing in those games can be used in another setting, none of the components make even display pieces.

None of those games cost $115 either.

But they were not far off, in contemporary money.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
"Limited Edition" does NOT apply to a production run larger than most other box games as we have been informed is the case.

So what you're saying is that Space Hulk also wasn't limited edition, although you can't get it anywhere except on eBay for double the original price a mere 2 years after its oh-so-massive print run?

Of course Space Hulk wasn't limited. It got produced in a larger amount than DF. Chibi says he's being reasonable, which of course means he's right. If 65k isn't limited, the how could 75k?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Backfire wrote:

augustus5 wrote:

Backfire wrote:

How many board games get played even 12 times? My cousin and I used to buy those Avalon Hills etc. strategy games and played them like twice each, at most. Nothing in those games can be used in another setting, none of the components make even display pieces.

None of those games cost $115 either.

But they were not far off, in contemporary money.

qft. A lot of my better boardgames are now in the 60-100 dollar range. Quite a few of the newer and/or larger ones coming in at 80-100.

Claiming that I am being reasonable, is not the same as claiming I am correct. Though in this instance I believe I am. And thanks for providing some support for that Mikhaila even if you are taking the piss.


First of all I have asked about production runs on this thread, and have been told that 65,000 is larger than most runs of boxed games. I am only going on the information people have provided.

It has also been said that DF is "Limited Edition"
It cannot be both limited edition and a standard industrial production run.
If Space Hulk was 75000 copies then it too was not limited edition, just because GW said it was.
Otherwise you could claim that a run of infinite copies could be called "limited edition" which is nonsense.

It was then claimed that "Limited Edition" actually means that there will be only one edition.

Limited edition and a single run are not the same thing.
So GW still got it wrong, it is NOT limited edition.

The definition of "limited edition" being:

An edition, as of a book or print, restricted to a specified number of copies.

and not
"Restricted to a limited number of production runs"

Or do you not understand what the word limited means?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
First of all I have asked about production runs on this thread, and have been told that 65,000 is larger than most runs of boxed games. I am only going on the information people have provided.

"Larger than most runs of boxed games" requires context. "Most boxed games" are not being pushed worldwide by a company which is supporting its own stores which make up a portion of the venues of sale.

To give an example, let's talk about video games. A multi-platform title will have more "limited editions" of the title produced than a single-platform title will.
That does not mean those "limited editions" are not "limited".

It has also been said that DF is "Limited Edition"
It cannot be both limited edition and a standard industrial production run.

Yes, actually it can be.

Where do you think these "limited editions" come from to begin with? Studio McVey's "limited edition" resin miniatures are the same as what they produce in metal for full production.
By your logic--they can't be limited editions because they're a production run.

If Space Hulk was 75000 copies then it too was not limited edition, just because GW said it was.
Otherwise you could claim that a run of infinite copies could be called "limited edition" which is nonsense.

This is a very silly claim to make, Chibi.

It was then claimed that "Limited Edition" actually means that there will be only one edition.

Limited edition and a single run are not the same thing.
So GW still got it wrong, it is NOT limited edition.

"Limit" means within a certain boundary. Is it not a "limit" if the "certain boundary" is a single production run?

Because by definition that is a certain boundary.

The definition of "limited edition" being:

An edition, as of a book or print, restricted to a specified number of copies.

and not
"Restricted to a limited number of production runs"

Or do you not understand what the word limited means?

I think before casting aspersions, you might want to rethink this line of thinking.

A "limited edition" means that it is, as you said "restricted to a specified number of copies".

A single production run will be a specified number of copies--namely, what the company ordering the production run will be.

It's just semantics, right?

Good grief.

What aspertions? I asked a question not made an insult.


Of course a single run may also be limited.

There may be a case of ten billion woggles being a limited production run. It is all relative. But we are not talking about woggles. It is about how many copies of a game have been produced.

If, as I have been told, these figures are larger than the norm, they are by definition not a limited edition.
Or are you suggesting that any number maybe considered as a limit for the amount of copies in a run?

You must be using the word limit in its broadest sense. Where the only limit is about resources. I am talking about "Limited Edition" as a term used to denote a restricted number of copies.

Sorry not going to argue the toss any more Kanners
It is going round in circles like a ship in a maelstrom.
You may think what the hell you like mate.


edit:
Yes RiTides it IS semantics.
You know a thread is sunk when it boils down to semantics.

Please note all nautical puns were deliberate

Pirate naval game and no black pearl or flying dutchman?

Im outta here . . .

It's semantics--to a point.

To claim that a "limited edition" is not "limited" simply because of the fact that it was produced in larger numbers than other boxed games (which boxed games are we talking about here anyways?) is a kind of silly claim.

It's like saying that because Gears of War 3's "Limited Edition" was produced in higher numbers than the "Limited Edition" of Batman: Arkham Asylum that Gears of War 3's "Limited Edition" was in fact not limited.

You're ignoring context in favor of simply pointing out a conclusion. Batman: Arkham Asylum's "Limited Edition" was a huge thing, packed to the brim with extras and it does not directly correlate between the two.
B:AA's "Limited Edition" is more akin to Reach's "Legendary" edition or Gears of War 3's "Epic" edition.

Does that mean one is more of a "limited edition" than the other?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
If, as I have been told, these figures are larger than the norm, they are by definition not limited.
Or are you suggesting that any number maybe considered as a limit for the amount of copies.
You must be using the word limit in its broadest sense. Where the only limit is about resources. I am talking about "Limited Edition" as a term used to denote a restricted number of copies.

But you see, that's the problem here Chibi. Like I constantly say in 40k Background threads:

Context matters.

These figures may be "larger than the norm" in terms of production runs for games which sell only through LGSes or webstores specializing in board games.

It's like comparing the limited edition of a novel being published by someone out of their home versus the limited edition of a novel being published by a major publishing corporation.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Claiming that I am being reasonable, is not the same as claiming I am correct. Though in this instance I believe I am. And thanks for providing some support for that Mikhaila even if you are taking the piss.


First of all I have asked about production runs on this thread, and have been told that 65,000 is larger than most runs of boxed games. I am only going on the information people have provided.

It has also been said that DF is "Limited Edition"
It cannot be both limited edition and a standard industrial production run.
If Space Hulk was 75000 copies then it too was not limited edition, just because GW said it was.
Otherwise you could claim that a run of infinite copies could be called "limited edition" which is nonsense.

It was then claimed that "Limited Edition" actually means that there will be only one edition.

Limited edition and a single run are not the same thing.
So GW still got it wrong, it is NOT limited edition.

The definition of "limited edition" being:

An edition, as of a book or print, restricted to a specified number of copies.

and not
"Restricted to a limited number of production runs"

Or do you not understand what the word limited means?

Ummm...Both Space Hulk and DF were restricted to a limited number of copies. By the definition you provided, that makes them limited editions. By typical industry standards, this IS a limited edition. When it's gone, it's gone. GW set the number of the print run. They then ordered that many pieces of each component. They then assembled and shipped that amount of finished copies. They are not making any more.

By any standard in the gaming industry, this is a Limited Edition. or Limited Print Run.

I find it far more limited than say a new book, that has a Limited Leatherbound Edition, Limited signed HC edition, limited numbered edition, and then goes through 50 editions of a SC. While each edition of the book might have a set number, they leave them selves open to more print runs, or editions, only different by the filing off of one number on the bottom of the 2nd page.

Space Hulk and Dreadfleet have one print run. In books that would be one edition. The print run is limited. By the Book Industries standards, this would be a Limited Edition.

And yes, I was taking the piss when I said your were being reasonable.

In the end, what definition of limited you, or I, choose won't make a difference. You've decided that GW are horrible deceptive monsters, somehow duping poor gullible gamers into buying a game by saying it's limited. Hell, that's pretty mellow considering all the other things people blame on GW. But try to keep your opinion quiet maybe, after all, if GW believed you, they'd start making that a standard business practice. Then think of how many poor gullible gamers would be running out to buy their stuff.

Bought it. Love it. Models are sweet, rules are cool.

I used to work in an Indie that had to deal with this kind of thing a lot, so I would like to share my thoughts on the subject.
Anyone who has worked with either modern die-cast ranges (Corgi and the like), or model trains (Bachmann, Hornby etc.) knows that the concept of 'Limited Edition' is often stretched pretty far, although there are laws within the industry about how things can be labelled.

Case in point, Corgi will release a die-cast of say a Spitfire. There will be a label on the box saying that this model is only 1 of 5000, as well as an individually numbered certificate inside attesting to that fact. But, say this model sells out in a couple of weeks, Corgi will realise that they are onto a good thing. We would get a call from Corgi HQ saying "please take the limited edition badges off the boxes you still have, it's no longer limited edition", then low and behold another delivery would come in weeks later. I believe that quite often the initial number would often be stretched to 2 or even 3 times that amount, until people stopped buying them. Obviously the people who had bought the original stock quickly (and at full price) would often be miffed about it, and Corgi as well as some others in the industry received some condemnation (and I am sure lost some trade) because of it. But, as far as I know, the law regarding it did not change.

So, I think there is 'Limited Edition' and there is 'limited edition', but there are trading standards laws concerning the use of this labelling both on the box and inside it. Does dreadfleet have a numbered certificate inside the box attesting to it's production of the production run of 65,000? If not, then as I understand it means that Dreadfleet would not technically be regarded as a 'limited edition' game. In the same way as Space Hulk, if the product had flown off the shelves, then there would have been nothing to stop GW 'finding a lost crate in the warehouse' again and sending out a fresh batch to stores and retailers. Otherwise, AFAIK GW is fully within it's rights to claim that it is limited edition, even if the print run of the game runs to such high numbers. It's exactly the same as that 'Limited edition' of box sets of video games like Fallout 3 or Gears of War. They are produced in hundreds of thousands, and there are factories in China which have devoted weeks of their production line to churning them out. It is as far away from the concept of 'limited edition', and the image that creates in the mind of the pruchaser, as it is possible to get. Yet due to vagaries in the law it can be freely used as a marketing tool by sellers to help shift stock. So in this, while it might be slightly underhand considering the uninformed purchaser might be unaware of what goes on, but GW is by no means alone in using it as a selling tactic.

Note that Black Library has some genuine 'Limited Edition' products, but they are again numbered to attest to that fact. They recently sold the forthcoming 'Aurelian' book as a limited edition (as they have done in the past with other titles) with a numbered certificate. They then offered a 'silver' run. This would have invalidated the original claims of the book to be limited edition, and so the new version has slightly less images inside and is therefore a different product and so can be classified as such by trading standard laws.

I did call this for Dreadfleet.
Space Hulk sales were massively inflated by people wanting cheap, cool, limited edition terminators. A tonne of people bought it to use as a source for the wargame. Also, C:BA had just come out (i think) so it was even more enticing.
Dreadfleet is not selling because the minis can't be used in other games. Sure, most people don't approach board games in that way, but DF isn't your typical boardgame in many respects. Coupled with the general negativity towards GW at the moment amongst verterans, Spartan's two naval games, and the high price, its no wonder they haven't sold out.

Also: GW calls it 'limited edition' because they scheduled to only produce it for a certain amount of time/units, unlike the majority of their other products. It might be hyping it up a little (especially considering the empirically low demand), but its not false advertising .

Let us not forget, Chibi, that the biggest reason that it is a limited edition is because THEY ARE NOT PRINTING MORE. The print run size doesnt matter.

If Fantasy Flight has a print run of 5000 copies of the Gears of War board game, and they sell out, they're going to print more. Thus, not a "Limited Edition" by the industry standard.

Please read my big post above cincydooley Technically, unless their is numbered certification attesting to the fact, then it is not 'limited edition'. This is how GW was able to find more copies of Space Hulk that a foolish forklift driver had managed to lose (perhaps behind old boxes of unopened 3rd edition Dark Elves?). The same would happen if they ever decided to do the same thing with Dreadfleet. I think in this case, as well as being a marketing tool ('buy it quickly, there won't be any more!') it's also a way of marking it as a standalone release that is set apart from the rest of the GW range.

I got it last night, I love it.

I spent all night putting some ships together.

90 euro was worth it,and as an added bonus it was a great conversation starter with the cute girl that works in the hoppy shop.

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:I got it last night, I love it.

I spent all night putting some ships together.

90 euro was worth it,and as an added bonus it was a great conversation starter with the cute girl that works in the hoppy shop.

You could have skipped that last bit

Baragash wrote:

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:I got it last night, I love it.

I spent all night putting some ships together.

90 euro was worth it,and as an added bonus it was a great conversation starter with the cute girl that works in the hoppy shop.

You could have skipped that last bit

Lol true.

I demoed it today at a local convention. 8 players, 1 ship each, free for all (I excluded the two flagships due to their power level). Took 2.5 hours, which is pretty reasonable considering a table full of newbies. We had the Dwarf and Tomb King ship left in the end, mostly unharmed.

Most things are limited to a degree. Really if something is a 'limited edition' they should be numbered as such. Otherwise they could just 'find a load in a cupboard' six months later and keep selling them.

Terms like 'limited edition' are pretty meaningless by advertising standards, you even get sweets and crisps with it printed on. It's safe to say that unless you get a numbered edition there's very little that's exclusive about it.

I think Dreadfleet was a cool idea, but it would've been a better game on a larger scale, like Epic or something.

For anyone that is still looking to buy Dreadfleet in England, I just saw a copy for sale on ebay for 75 € so about 66 pounds...

I got my copy last week. Was impressed with the amount of plastic it contains, the sheer details of the ships and how much care has been put onto every single part of it.

That is why buggers me this whole limited edition strategy from GW - the product is so good IMO that you don't need to push people to buy it. I am very satisfied with Dreadfleet, but can't pesting GW for how they treat their customers

My LGS has 3 copies on the shelves. They appear to have a fine layer of dust on them.

I'm not tempted by the Fantasy side nor the price. I'm just hoping GW actually listens and brings back Battlefleet Gothic but who am I? To them I'm just the customer and my opinions obviously don't matter much. It's not like I spent hundreds of dollars on GW specialist games... oh wait, I did! Oh well. Guess I'll just spend my money elsewhere. Spartan Games, FoW and Dust Tactics here I come!

Good luck GW with the whole "limited edition" schtick. I understand that it's sales and everyone is going to market their product to develop a sense of urgency to make that sale... wait a minute, marketing includes advertising... hmm, sorry, I forgot WD was a GW catalog now.

Whether its 100 copies or 100,000 copies if a company says it's "limited edition" there are going to be some people who buy it because it says so. It's up to the consumer, not the seller, to determine if the "limited edition-ness" of an item really makes it more valuable/desirable and puts down that money to buy it. Vote with your cash, people. Money talks, baloney walks!

Maxstreel wrote:My LGS has 3 copies on the shelves. They appear to have a fine layer of dust on them.

I'm not tempted by the Fantasy side nor the price. I'm just hoping GW actually listens and brings back Battlefleet Gothic but who am I? To them I'm just the customer and my opinions obviously don't matter much. It's not like I spent hundreds of dollars on GW specialist games... oh wait, I did! Oh well. Guess I'll just spend my money elsewhere. Spartan Games, FoW and Dust Tactics here I come!

This comment and others which are similar confuse me. How do 'bring back' something that is not gone? You can download the rules for free, or buy the hard copy. The ships are availabale to order on the website. What could possibly prevent you from getting what you need to play the game?

According to G.W B'Ham and Oxford they always have 'the last copy in the store' on their Facebook status.

CptJake wrote:

Maxstreel wrote:My LGS has 3 copies on the shelves. They appear to have a fine layer of dust on them.

I'm not tempted by the Fantasy side nor the price. I'm just hoping GW actually listens and brings back Battlefleet Gothic but who am I? To them I'm just the customer and my opinions obviously don't matter much. It's not like I spent hundreds of dollars on GW specialist games... oh wait, I did! Oh well. Guess I'll just spend my money elsewhere. Spartan Games, FoW and Dust Tactics here I come!

This comment and others which are similar confuse me. How do 'bring back' something that is not gone? You can download the rules for free, or buy the hard copy. The ships are availabale to order on the website. What could possibly prevent you from getting what you need to play the game?

The ships are availible where? Is that for replacement ships?

CptJake wrote:

Maxstreel wrote:My LGS has 3 copies on the shelves. They appear to have a fine layer of dust on them.

I'm not tempted by the Fantasy side nor the price. I'm just hoping GW actually listens and brings back Battlefleet Gothic but who am I? To them I'm just the customer and my opinions obviously don't matter much. It's not like I spent hundreds of dollars on GW specialist games... oh wait, I did! Oh well. Guess I'll just spend my money elsewhere. Spartan Games, FoW and Dust Tactics here I come!

This comment and others which are similar confuse me. How do 'bring back' something that is not gone? You can download the rules for free, or buy the hard copy. The ships are availabale to order on the website. What could possibly prevent you from getting what you need to play the game?

You know exactly what people mean when they say to bring back certain specialist games that are technically still available.

Being available for sale at exorbitant markup prices in a deep dark corner of a single site on the internet is radically diferent to being available through the normal GW distribution network, be it GW stores, online retailers, LGSs, etc!

Perhaps I should've been clearer... support for a game system is different than just downloading the ruleset with no support from the original distributor. PhantomViper is correct: no new ships, no new rules, and existing models that I bought originally very inexpensively going at exorbitant ebay prices.

WOTR is a perfect example. A great idea (in my opinion) to get more interest in what many gamers wanted from LOTR: big battles, not skirmish level stuff. The main rulebook comes out and then a supplement with some additional rules... then silence. Interest was out there (look to the LOTR bubble the CEO blamed lack of sales on a few years back) but once the GW stopped supporting it, no redshirts or blackshirts supporting it, good luck finding players much less GW stores or LGS's pushing it along. I can't blame LGS's. They have to push product that sells, whether it's minis, Magic, comics, etc.

So back on topic: Dreadfleet. Nice idea. What about future support? I'm not holding my breath. So I'll put my money where I get the most enjoyment in other game systems.

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:

CptJake wrote:

Maxstreel wrote:My LGS has 3 copies on the shelves. They appear to have a fine layer of dust on them.

I'm not tempted by the Fantasy side nor the price. I'm just hoping GW actually listens and brings back Battlefleet Gothic but who am I? To them I'm just the customer and my opinions obviously don't matter much. It's not like I spent hundreds of dollars on GW specialist games... oh wait, I did! Oh well. Guess I'll just spend my money elsewhere. Spartan Games, FoW and Dust Tactics here I come!

This comment and others which are similar confuse me. How do 'bring back' something that is not gone? You can download the rules for free, or buy the hard copy. The ships are availabale to order on the website. What could possibly prevent you from getting what you need to play the game?

The ships are availible where? Is that for replacement ships?

GW Website seems to have a bunch of BFG shios you can buy.

PhantomViper wrote:

CptJake wrote:

Maxstreel wrote:My LGS has 3 copies on the shelves. They appear to have a fine layer of dust on them.

I'm not tempted by the Fantasy side nor the price. I'm just hoping GW actually listens and brings back Battlefleet Gothic but who am I? To them I'm just the customer and my opinions obviously don't matter much. It's not like I spent hundreds of dollars on GW specialist games... oh wait, I did! Oh well. Guess I'll just spend my money elsewhere. Spartan Games, FoW and Dust Tactics here I come!

This comment and others which are similar confuse me. How do 'bring back' something that is not gone? You can download the rules for free, or buy the hard copy. The ships are availabale to order on the website. What could possibly prevent you from getting what you need to play the game?

You know exactly what people mean when they say to bring back certain specialist games that are technically still available.

Being available for sale at exorbitant markup prices in a deep dark corner of a single site on the internet is radically diferent to being available through the normal GW distribution network, be it GW stores, online retailers, LGSs, etc!

The game and the figures are readily available on the GW site. Period. There is NO reason someone can't get what they need to play the game. Again, pretty hard to 'bring back' something that is not gone. Do they still make new stuff for it? Nope. Does that mean you can't get what there is for it? Nope. I'm pretty sure internet stores like The Warstore would be happy to get them for you if you can't bring your self to do it on the GW web page.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maxstreel wrote:Perhaps I should've been clearer... support for a game system is different than just downloading the ruleset with no support from the original distributor. PhantomViper is correct: no new ships, no new rules, and existing models that I bought originally very inexpensively going at exorbitant ebay prices.

WOTR is a perfect example. A great idea (in my opinion) to get more interest in what many gamers wanted from LOTR: big battles, not skirmish level stuff. The main rulebook comes out and then a supplement with some additional rules... then silence. Interest was out there (look to the LOTR bubble the CEO blamed lack of sales on a few years back) but once the GW stopped supporting it, no redshirts or blackshirts supporting it, good luck finding players much less GW stores or LGS's pushing it along. I can't blame LGS's. They have to push product that sells, whether it's minis, Magic, comics, etc.

So back on topic: Dreadfleet. Nice idea. What about future support? I'm not holding my breath. So I'll put my money where I get the most enjoyment in other game systems.

Of course there will not be future support. Why should there be? It is a complete 'game in a box' that GW said was not going to be expanded. You either like that, or you don't. But to make comments about 'not holding your breath' waiting for expansions to a one off game is just silly. About as silly as complaining about "lack of support from the original distributor' of BFG, who not only still sells everything you need for the game, but also made the rules available for free. That could be considered pretty good support for a game they no longer are expanding.

CptJake wrote:
The game and the figures are readily available on the GW site. Period. There is NO reason someone can't get what they need to play the game. Again, pretty hard to 'bring back' something that is not gone. Do they still make new stuff for it? Nope. Does that mean you can't get what there is for it? Nope. I'm pretty sure internet stores like The Warstore would be happy to get them for you if you can't bring your self to do it on the GW web page.

You wan't to keep playing this game, fine.

I don't need more BFG stuff, I already have all I need for it and still play it on a semi-regular basis, but just to enlighten possible newer players, I tried to find BFG in The Warstore, but I couldn't even find any mention of it, care to say how I (or anyone else) can order it through TheWarstore with their regular discount?

Dead miniatures games are dead miniatures games; once support, new models and/or rules dry up, the flow stops, much as Phantomviper says. I still have my old Raven figures, and I know people with extensive Warzone collections, but it just isn't the same as a supported line.

PhantomViper wrote:

CptJake wrote:
The game and the figures are readily available on the GW site. Period. There is NO reason someone can't get what they need to play the game. Again, pretty hard to 'bring back' something that is not gone. Do they still make new stuff for it? Nope. Does that mean you can't get what there is for it? Nope. I'm pretty sure internet stores like The Warstore would be happy to get them for you if you can't bring your self to do it on the GW web page.

You wan't to keep playing this game, fine.

I don't need more BFG stuff, I already have all I need for it and still play it on a semi-regular basis, but just to enlighten possible newer players, I tried to find BFG in The Warstore, but I couldn't even find any mention of it, care to say how I (or anyone else) can order it through TheWarstore with their regular discount?

I'm guessing the same way you can order any GW products since they don't have an online cart for GW stuff. Email them. I'm not sure they can offer the discount on specialst games, you would have to ask.

I heard some time ago that apparently GW were considering completely binning the entire Specialist games range. This was after the likes of Epic and Blood Bowl had been removed from sale in shop and went to direct order only. However, bless his cotton socks, Jervis Johnson offered to take stewardship under his wing entirely in addition to the responsibilities that he already has at the company. So, we might well have had no specialist games at all (even in vastly reduced form) had it not been for him.

However, short of just saying "you can't buy these" GW have tried to get as close to that definition as possible. Anyone who remembers the time (not all that long ago) when Specialist games went on a rotating basis of support in the stores will know what it means to have support for a system beyond just selling it through some dusty corner of the website.

This means:
- Selling the games in store, with physical product available to purchase. It wouldn't have to be a massive amount, just the core releases and some blister packs of more popular products.
- Features and hobby articles on the games in WD magazines.
- Allow playing of said games in GW. Not only are there no promotional games, weekend events, or hobby events (at both local and national level) but the playing of these games is specifically banned by company policy in store. I don't know how you can have any more of an obvious indicator than that, that the Specialist games are not supported. I can understand why GW have done this - back when I was a staffer, it was amazing how many younger players would pick up the 'classics' (the likes of BB and Necromunda) simply because they were so much fun, and you can enjoy a standard game without spending hundreds of dollars.
- The occasional website feature or hobby article online.

Any of these steps would help to get new blood into the games. And not only that, but probably other GW stuff as well. I would have to say that GW is hurting itself by not having a lower price option available for people to get into the games and the Specialist games would be perfect for that.

So, there is 'support' and then there is 'support'. The fact that there are so many fan run websites and 3rd party manufacturers of GW specialist range is further evidence of the fact that all of them are treated like GW's embarrassing Uncle, the one who gets inebriated at family get togethers and then launches into a massive tirade before collapsing in a drunken heap on the ground.

Pacific wrote:So, there is 'support' and then there is 'support'. The fact that there are so many fan run websites and 3rd party manufacturers of GW specialist range is further evidence of the fact that all of them are treated like GW's embarrassing Uncle, the one who gets inebriated at family get togethers and then launches into a massive tirade before collapsing in a drunken heap on the ground.

So how do you explain 40k and Warhammer fan sites and 3rd party manufacturers?

Nope. Sticking to my 40K, thanks.

Neat models, just horribly overpriced. There's a million naval games out there. I see no reason to buy one from GW.

I bought the Black Kraken as bits, on eBay. Some people want £20 for it, others only £5, both on the sprue.

Using this:



as this:



Dystopian Wars, Empire of the Blazing Suns: Mechanical Ika.

Both models are very similar in proportion. I am filing away the Chaos Dwarf helm icon and replacing it with a Japanese red sun.

You're not the only one, Orlanth! A local EotBS player in my DW group is doing the same thing . I'm pretty happy with my Dreadfleet purchase, as there was a lot in the box for the money, and the miniatures are really nice. That being said, I bought it knowing that I would end up using a lot of the components for other games or as display pieces.

I too would love to see a revival of Battlefleet Gothic;

@CptJake: I'm afraid that I, too, have to disagree with you on the BFG issue. As much as I love the game, there is no doubt in my mind that it is being hurt by a lack of official new models, rules updates, and expansions. At one point, BFG was one of GW's primary games, with its own magazine and frequent releases. Those of use that want to see the game "brought back" would like to see it restored to some semblance of that former glory...

CptJake wrote:

Pacific wrote:So, there is 'support' and then there is 'support'. The fact that there are so many fan run websites and 3rd party manufacturers of GW specialist range is further evidence of the fact that all of them are treated like GW's embarrassing Uncle, the one who gets inebriated at family get togethers and then launches into a massive tirade before collapsing in a drunken heap on the ground.

So how do you explain 40k and Warhammer fan sites and 3rd party manufacturers?

Well, the point I was trying to make was that those Specialist games sites survive, and help perpetuate those games, despite GW not because of them.

My other points still stand however.

Ruckdog wrote:At one point, BFG was one of GW's primary games, with its own magazine and frequent releases. Those of use that want to see the game "brought back" would like to see it restored to some semblance of that former glory...

I'm afraid that's not true. All the Specialist Games had their own magazine, Necromunda even had two incarnations (Gang War and Necromunda Magazine). According to blongbling on Warseer (who was the head of European Sales or something like that IIRC) Epic 40k was the strongest performance for an SG which peaked at 4% of GW sales in it's launch year and then dropped to 1%.

Bottom line, for a company of GW's size SG have never produced the returns they require to justify resourcing them, and expecting new models and expansions is even less realistic for that reason.

They'd make a great line for a small company to maintain*, but apparently GW has rebuffed any attempts to license them so far.

*Or perhaps FW, but FW can't even maintain updates to their existing army lists at the moment, so I don't think they can resource it on their current staff.

Those of use that want to see the game "brought back" would like to see it restored to some semblance of that former glory...

I think that there is someone saying the same thing about most any game. I have people come in the store and vent on a regular basis about why their favorite game isn't like it was in the old days: DnD, 2ndEdDnD, 3.5DnD,Runequest,Dragonquest,CoC,Champions.all of White Wolf, Ogre,CarWars,Battletech, All GW specialist Games, WFB 6th and 7th, Rogue Trader 40k, Warzone, .............I tell them the same thing: Start up a group, run a league, put some work in to get it going. Doesn't happen much. They all want me to do the work, so they can play.

Even if GW gave the game support, it's still going to greatly depend on your local community. If they're of playing 40k or Warmachine, they may not go back to BFG reguardless of what GW does. I'd recommend that people wanting to play a certain game put in the work to start their own leagues and groups, and not wait on GW to jump start things. You may be waiting for years.

Baragash wrote:
I'm afraid that's not true. All the Specialist Games had their own magazine, Necromunda even had two incarnations (Gang War and Necromunda Magazine). According to blongbling on Warseer (who was the head of European Sales or something like that IIRC) Epic 40k was the strongest performance for an SG which peaked at 4% of GW sales in it's launch year and then dropped to 1%.

Where did you get those numbers from? I have serious doubts that any of the bigger SG (Mordheim, BFG and Epic) made that little impact on GW sales on their release years and besides, GW never released any sales numbers on any of their product line, let alone before they wen't public and had no legal obligation to release any values whatsoever!

PhantomViper wrote:

Baragash wrote:
I'm afraid that's not true. All the Specialist Games had their own magazine, Necromunda even had two incarnations (Gang War and Necromunda Magazine). According to blongbling on Warseer (who was the head of European Sales or something like that IIRC) Epic 40k was the strongest performance for an SG which peaked at 4% of GW sales in it's launch year and then dropped to 1%.

Where did you get those numbers from? I have serious doubts that any of the bigger SG (Mordheim, BFG and Epic) made that little impact on GW sales on their release years and besides, GW never released any sales numbers on any of their product line, let alone before they wen't public and had no legal obligation to release any values whatsoever!

Sorry, didn't notice that...

So basically, that most trusted of sources: "some guy on the internet told them to me"...

I would, but it is rediculously over priced, even for GW. If they dropped the price I might think about it. Or they could just make Battlefleet Gothic more readily available....

Ok I managed to see the thing on my hands and I have to say something here... some of the best fine detailed plastics from GW there... lots of micro detailed cool sprues...
Now I think GW MISSED THE BOAT!... on the dreadfleet sprues I noticed some really tiny 15mm caravels and boats and those are just the perfect scale and detail for a MASSSIVE naval game... I mean if they ditched the fugly big boats and did big armadas for all races in that scale I would buy it in a second!

So yeah this could have been something memorable.

mikhaila wrote:Those of use that want to see the game "brought back" would like to see it restored to some semblance of that former glory...

I think that there is someone saying the same thing about most any game. I have people come in the store and vent on a regular basis about why their favorite game isn't like it was in the old days: DnD, 2ndEdDnD, 3.5DnD,Runequest,Dragonquest,CoC,Champions.all of White Wolf, Ogre,CarWars,Battletech, All GW specialist Games, WFB 6th and 7th, Rogue Trader 40k, Warzone, .............I tell them the same thing: Start up a group, run a league, put some work in to get it going. Doesn't happen much. They all want me to do the work, so they can play.

Even if GW gave the game support, it's still going to greatly depend on your local community. If they're of playing 40k or Warmachine, they may not go back to BFG reguardless of what GW does. I'd recommend that people wanting to play a certain game put in the work to start their own leagues and groups, and not wait on GW to jump start things. You may be waiting for years.

Oh, I definitely agree . I just contributed a segment to the Black Ocean podcast on this very topic, as I've found myself in the position of having to organize a group for a game I'm fond of several times. I have discovered, though, that the process is much more difficult for games that are older or have a lack of new releases. Unfortunately, BFG is in a position where both of those apply .

I think the only real reason why its not selling particularly well is because no one knew anything about it two bloody weeks before launch.

I mean christ, people need to save up money to afford it. Two weeks notice leaves very little room for the consumer to get excited over the product being offered and offers no breathing room for retailers to hype up the game.

The stories about stores having to open their copies the morning of release is just nuts as well. How can you entice people to play it, if your own employees don't know whats going on with it.

It doesn't even look bad, quite fun actually, but how on earth can you expect people to buy something with almost no information given?

PhantomViper wrote:Sorry, didn't notice that...

So basically, that most trusted of sources: "some guy on the internet told them to me"...

*shrugs* What you do with the information is up to you, if you can't be bothered to go and investigate the information and it's potential truth, who loses out?

PhantomViper wrote:Sorry, didn't notice that...

So basically, that most trusted of sources: "some guy on the internet told them to me"...

Well, no. "Blongbling" has a good track record and a good reputation. As with "Harry" and others, he is more than just "some guy on the internet", he's actually "some guy on the internet who has a good track record of telling the truth". If someone has a good record of telling the truth where it has been able to be verified makes it worth listening to them on those occasions when it can't be verified by other sources.

I'm not a credulous person, and I generally take everything I read in t'internet with a dose of salt, but sometimes its worth taking a smaller dose than others.

If you're skeptical about the value of bloingbling's statements, then you are at total liberty to pop over to Warseer and read what he has posted himself over the years.(http://www.warseer.com/forums/search.php?searchid=3002358). Once you have done that then your opinion as to the worthiness of his statements may be worth something itself. Until then your opinion of their reliability or otherwise is just that of "some guy on the internet"....

I'm not busting your bones about this, but the standard "internet skeptic" point of view tends to irritate me unduly. At some point, actually, sometimes, some guys say some things on the internet that it *is* worth listening to. Disbelieving *everything* simply on principle and demanding proof as if you have some sort of right to it just seems a pretty arrogant stance to take, to me.

And to get back to the original topic, my local store still has on display the 4 copies he had on display on 1st Oct, they're priced at £64 which is in line with his usual 10% discount. Whether they are selling generally, I haven't a clue. They aren't selling on my local High Street, that's for certain. On my part, if the price comes down to £40 or so I'd likely get a copy, but given the style of play the reviewers indicate (highly random, can take a long time to resolve) I can't see myself paying the full asking for it, particularly as the ships seem pretty fiddly to paint. On the other hand the islands (de-skullified) and wreckage would do double-bubble for Uncharted Seas/Dystopian wars, so I may get a discounted sprue of them off ebay at some point.