61979
Post by: DaveC
Marie Claude is currently working on 2 large trophy swords for them for their Gencon painting contest so you know our money is being well spent
She's making 2 more of these - sword from last year.
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Post by: Sometime
 highlord tamburlaine wrote:What was their GenCon presence like? Some of us have never been.
I was morbidly looking forward to their models for this year, especially the Relic Knight ones.
I'm like thiiiiiiiiiiis close to actually ordering one if it's reasonably priced.
They had 8 to 10 booths last year and the year before, which works out to $25k? Lots of staff, hotel, flights, booth fixtures etc, plus shipping inventory to the show. I'd guesstimate maybe $50k to $75k to attend the show - I'd be surprised if they made that back in sales, so it's definitely a cost center. And they attended multiple shows a year up till 2017. Say, 6 shows a year, $30k average attendance, works out to at least $180k. And they've been doing this since at least 2014, so look at blowing over half a million flying people around to basically party at cons.
This company has always struck me as a bit of a cargo cult, copying what successful companies are doing without really understanding they're copying the symptoms of success, and not the actual causes. For example, a large convention presence is an indication there's a great demand for games and engagement with the company - a large con presence doesn't create it.
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Post by: LordMcAllister
 TwilightSparkles wrote:They obviously blew the cash from this so somehow multiple smaller, delivered, KS are going to fund production of the biggest one. That's math deserving of a politician.......
This sounds very much like a "Ponzi-scheme", though it might not be intentionally fraudulent and more caused by mismanagement. Simply pay back some of the backers to keep the faith of most of the community to make them buy further stuff without refunding/providing some customers.
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Post by: nkelsch
Ninja Divison announces they will use a partner shell company to launch a new KS for miniatures while still not full-filling past KS's miniature obligations.
https://ninjadivision.com/info/news/article/super-dungeon-novel-series-by-future-house-publishing
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Post by: odinsgrandson
Poor Future House Publishing. I wouldn't be surprised if FHP was completely innocent in wanting to kickstart a Super Dungeon novel series, but having the SDE label on a Kickstarter right now is bad news.
To be fair, they have started sending out Starfinder miniatures (they're delivering in waves). I'm not sure if everyone has received their stuff for wave 1 there, but we know that at least some have.
I agree that they seem to be aping the symptoms of success quite a bit. Now, to be fair, Super Dungeon Explore was a big hit- it was CMON's biggest game back in the day (although it is clear that other CMON games have surpassed it at this point).
They shouldn't have gotten themselves in a fix where they can't afford to deliver their Kickstarters, but a lot of their statements make me think that they're actually trying to get themselves out of it.
I certainly hope that some of their other endeavors are successful enough to pay for their mistakes. It did work for Kingdom Death.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Even a cursory look would have shown this isn't a shell company but a genuine independent entity
now whether they're smart to bolt LE minis onto their book KS with Sodapop making them?
I think it's a mistake as there clearly is a bottleneck in resin production (capacity or cash?) and will no doubt end up dragging on longer than expected, but that's down to them
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
As of Nov. 2018, the KS is dead, as confirmed by SPM/ND's response to an Attorney General inquiry:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Iu7HOs3mkd6GCve9LqHT_9Q5rdghW5xY/view?fbclid=IwAR1SrieVM5rhAhunIeGZwzPbJFhZoeCjdqba4p4MZ5v9-Sif819MYxQHXQ8
Based on this, the rational conclusion is that there will be no rewards, no refunds, nothing.
At this point, one may imagine that SPM/ND will be trying to pull a Maelstrom -> Miece trick, or else washing their hands like Kevin did with Robotech RPG Tactics.
If I had funds outstanding, I would strongly consider writing to my AG and pushing for fraud charges to be filed, based on SPM misrepresenting the facts of the situation and denying me my ability to seek the refunds that they had promised. While you won't be able to get the money back, you can certainly push for jail time.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Wait. Maelstrom became Mierce? I thought they became CMON..?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
There's a more detaled thread gets into the whole thing behind:
* Maelstrom Games
* Simple Games
* Wayland Games
* Mierce Miniatures
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/615473.page
CMoN appears to have been aboveboard as far as a I can tell.
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Post by: DaveC
CMON was New Wave Games and have their own dodgy past. David Doust is connected to both. So they aren’t whiter than white but have rebuilt their reputation to the point most people don’t know or have forgotten about New Waves dodgy dealings.
On Topic there’s no way ND/SPM is digging themselves out of that $750,000 hole. It’s much as they’ve acknowledged they can’t raise that money without new sales but they’ve burnt their core support through the KS so can’t generate sales from them.
The only realistic options are they sell up but a new buyer is under no obligation to fulfil the KS or the manufacturer does Arcade on credit but how much would subsequent sales of that raise? Probably not enough to put a dent in the $750k and they’d have to fulfil KS backers orders for that if it’s been produced to meet KS terms of service.
I see those toxic backers are still getting some of the blame. I’d say it’s a very small vocal minority. No one should ever be subjected to intimidation or threats but it’s not the backers who mismanaged this.
They’ve badly mismanaged this Id hate to see anyone lose their home but the directors need to be struck off and barred from acting as directors for a number of years as they can’t manage their finances or company.
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Post by: nkelsch
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
At this point, one may imagine that SPM/ND will be trying to pull a Maelstrom -> Miece trick, or else washing their hands like Kevin did with Robotech RPG Tactics.
Or try a Megacon/Myth scenario, where they 'sell' the IP to a new company, who fulfills the KS and then has a shiny new retail IP. I suspect if backers got their pledges, the SDE IP would still hold value. It seems to have worked for MYTH (the delivery of all the paper components so people can begin playing went over REALLY well...)
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Post by: LunarSol
 odinsgrandson wrote:
I agree that they seem to be aping the symptoms of success quite a bit. Now, to be fair, Super Dungeon Explore was a big hit- it was CMON's biggest game back in the day (although it is clear that other CMON games have surpassed it at this point).
Sodapop has always been a company of great artists and ideas that don't really know how to translate that into a gameplay experience. Their games have never been strong enough to build up a reputation to keep people invested in their products beyond the initial pitch. It's kind of a shame on that, because Justin Gibbs gave them just the kind of guy they needed. I've actually been rather impressed with Relic Knights 2.0 (didn't back it, but someone who did convinced me to finally build by 1.0 stuff and give it a try). Sadly, without him even if 2.0 sees release, I can't see that ship staying on course for long or doing anything to make up for the first edition's abysmal reputation, particularly after this.
Pretty bummed about SDE. Saved off the beta stuff which is worth playing at least for the same reason I mentioned above. Disappointed. Not really surprised. Just.... disappointed.
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Post by: nkelsch
 LunarSol wrote: It's kind of a shame on that, because Justin Gibbs gave them just the kind of guy they needed.
Agree. Justin was a huge asset, and I hope he can stick with the industry as I think he would make a good designer for someone else. The problem is... if you kept Justin... What was the point of Deke? Deke's track record was abysmal with rules, basic probabilities and balance and he didn't take feedback. Kinda hard to replace the head rules guy when he is an owner of the company.
If someone hears of a project or company Justin moves to, please share it here. I would really like to watch his future projects.
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Post by: FrozenDwarf
well, in all fairness, we all know that KS is not a 100% guaranteed thing to happend, you support an idea that MAY be turned into reality.
if you want 100% guaranteed, dont buy non released games/gaming products.
we only assumed that it was 100% guaranteed cuz the 2 prev games was.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
However, you get no other collateral for your interest free loan. So it is a pre order site, regardless of the advertising.
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Post by: FrozenDwarf
 Maniac_nmt wrote:However, you get no other collateral for your interest free loan. So it is a pre order site, regardless of the advertising.
then you have completely misunderstood KS.
you give some random folks you money and HOPE you get something in return. THAT is kickstarter.
your biggest chanse of getting the money back is if the ks dont meet the goals. trying to get your money back after a project hits the goal and still cant deliver, is pointless.
think i have done about 14 KS. 2 of them are a complete no show(included sde:l) 7 of them was delayed/heavily delayed(2 months to over 1 year), rest was whitin 1 month of guessed delivery date.
this legends ks will never happend, simple as that. there is no cash to create the huge numbers of models we wished for.
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Post by: Elemental
LunarSol wrote:
Sodapop has always been a company of great artists and ideas that don't really know how to translate that into a gameplay experience. Their games have never been strong enough to build up a reputation to keep people invested in their products beyond the initial pitch. It's kind of a shame on that, because Justin Gibbs gave them just the kind of guy they needed. I've actually been rather impressed with Relic Knights 2.0 (didn't back it, but someone who did convinced me to finally build by 1.0 stuff and give it a try). Sadly, without him even if 2.0 sees release, I can't see that ship staying on course for long or doing anything to make up for the first edition's abysmal reputation, particularly after this.
Considering the KS has had radio silence for the last three months, I'm not holding my breath on that. According to the August update, the starter set was ready, but they haven't dispatched them because [footage not found].
I suspect the company might be going under before too long, I just hope at least some of the product I paid for gets out the door before then, or someone else picks it up.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
 FrozenDwarf wrote: Maniac_nmt wrote:However, you get no other collateral for your interest free loan. So it is a pre order site, regardless of the advertising.
then you have completely misunderstood KS.
you give some random folks you money and HOPE you get something in return. THAT is kickstarter.
your biggest chanse of getting the money back is if the ks dont meet the goals. trying to get your money back after a project hits the goal and still cant deliver, is pointless.
think i have done about 14 KS. 2 of them are a complete no show(included sde:l) 7 of them was delayed/heavily delayed(2 months to over 1 year), rest was whitin 1 month of guessed delivery date.
this legends ks will never happend, simple as that. there is no cash to create the huge numbers of models we wished for.
I haven't misunderstood Kickstarter at all. Under any other 'loan' scenario, you get collateral. The bank requires you to show you can financially support a loan, they make you pay interest on said loan, or have you put items up as collateral. A venture capitalist gets stake in the company, have said company put up assets as collateral, gets rights to the idea if it falters, or other similar things.
Kickstarter is essentially, in function, ebay without the buyer protections. They get their money up front as a percentage of the kickstarter and then tell you 'you're on your own'. If it were truly 'help fund folks', why are they getting their money upfront and then abandoning ship?
This is why firms offer a discount or stretch goals. This is to entice you to give them your money by offering 'collateral'. However, short of external litigation when such a project does not deliver, there is no recourse. I've backed about 30 kickstarters in some fashion or another. At no point should I ever expect them to fail without the person running the kickstarter to have to pony something up. Otherwise I could just give random people on the street money and eliminate the middle man. Since kickstarter offers no other means of obtaining said collateral for my portion of the donation, it is, at the end of the day, a pre-order site.
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Post by: Nurglitch
Therein lies a cautionary tale. Something I need to do with Titanomachina is create a print-and-play/MVP version, as I think part of what's killing a lot of these games even after a successful kickstarter is the cost of the all the components.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
There's something for the cost of product; however, mostly, it's SPM being generally incompetent at managing. In terms of physical product, Legends was basically the same scope as Forgotten King, which they did an adequate job of delivering. That's why it got as much funding as FK did.
Where SPM fell apart was not actually doing any of the work that they were supposed to do, and then deciding to scrap all of the pre-KS work in favor of a series of "clean sheet" designs from their in-house "designer" who obviously doesn't know gak about designing games, holding delivery hostage because he can't design his way out of a wet paper bag. This because their "manager" won't ship product that isn't "perfect". Led by "executives" who have no real clue why their product was even purchased in the first place (it's the cute minis, stupid!).
Basically, total incompetence at every level.7
Then, when they hit a few snags, everything fell apart. Had they shipped anything at all, a Wave 1 a la Robotech, it would be far more excusable.
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Post by: Col Hammer
I was not even that interested in the Legends part of the KS. I just wanted the new version of the SDE (and the figures, naturally).
I wouldn't even mind if they scrapped the Legends and just delivered the SDE, Arcade and Pets boxes that are supposedly done and waiting for money to print them...
But yes, it's all gone...  
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
 Col Hammer wrote:I was not even that interested in the Legends part of the KS. I just wanted the new version of the SDE (and the figures, naturally).
Pretty much. Nobody was really pledging for Legends. Most just wanted the minis. Result is that nobody was happy.
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Post by: malfred
I posted tht same article in dakka disc and I was directed here.
Looks like I have some reading to do.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
The image that Dark Severance posted there though, should raise a bitter, vengeful smile from anyone stung by the Prodos Aliens vs Predator debacle... Seems someone is out a considerable sum...
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Oh noes, Prodos is owed something they won’t get without resorting to legal action?
Welcome to the fething club.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
*sniff*, *sniff*... smells like Karma to me! 
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Post by: jcfiala
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:The image that Dark Severance posted there though, should raise a bitter, vengeful smile from anyone stung by the Prodos Aliens vs Predator debacle... Seems someone is out a considerable sum...
Oh, hey, a new facebook page to join.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
 Nostromodamus wrote:Oh noes, Prodos is owed something they won’t get without resorting to legal action?
Welcome to the fething club.
*"Archon"
Didn't you see that they changed their name?
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Post by: DaveC
It turns out Archon got stung with a tax bill in Poland for the stock they are sitting on for ND/SPM that they haven’t been paid for which has put them under some financial pressure as well so they are now pursuing ND/SPM because of this which is why this has come out now.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
JohnHwangDD wrote: Nostromodamus wrote:Oh noes, Prodos is owed something they won’t get without resorting to legal action?
Welcome to the fething club.
*"Archon"
Didn't you see that they changed their name?
Sorry, I don’t always remember which shell company they are operating under. Hopefully this cripples them financially and sees them go under, fething scum that they are.
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Post by: Alpharius
 DaveC wrote:It turns out Archon got stung with a tax bill in Poland for the stock they are sitting on for ND/ SPM that they haven’t been paid for which has put them under some financial pressure as well so they are now pursuing ND/ SPM because of this which is why this has come out now.
Karma 2x then?
I don't usually enjoy schadenfreude situations, because even in a case like this, "Archon" will just shed its skin again and rinse and repeat while some 'regular joe' employee of "Archon" will be out of work, maybe?
Still, yeah, hard to generate sympathy for "Archon" given how they screwed over backers and are, I think, still screwing some backers.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
We have an Update!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explore-legends/posts/2420163
Selected highlights:
"Soda Pop Miniatures" wrote: Breaking Radio Silence
February 18, 2019
Boise, ID.
Ninja Division Company Update
It broke our hearts to let the majority of our incredible staff go at the end of 2018. Ninja Division is currently staffed by its three owners (who are off salary) and a sales manager who continue to work towards the successful reorganization of Ninja Division and pursue Kickstarter fulfillment options.
With staff layoffs, we are unable to individually respond to all email and social media posts we receive, and our time is best spent pursuing all available options for the continuance of the brands we all love.
Ninja Division would like to request that backers from all of our outstanding projects direct your questions and inquiries to us. Our outside partners are not able to service refunds, returns, or ship your product.
Super Dungeon
the Super Dungeon Kickstarter project was restructured
This restructuring of the project increased development time, development costs, manufacturing costs, and future shipping costs.
Super Dungeon then suffered an additional delay in March 2017 when the lead designer for Super Dungeon developed health problems which cut work availability for over six months.
As of now, Super Dungeon is 95% complete and production ready, requiring only finalization and layout of the Legends core game.
Relic Knights
All sculpts, including non-Kickstarter Void Break units, are sculpted and ready for production with the exception of Relic Knight Zineda.
Starfinder Masterclass
To date, Ninja Division has manufactured and delivered over 28,000 miniatures to backers but has a great many more to complete. All sculpts are fully re-engineered and ready for production.
Way of the Fighter
Only models, which are not required for gameplay, are outstanding. Production of all non-Super Dungeon crossover miniatures is 50% complete. All remaining sculpts are complete and ready for production.
Financial Disclosure
The Cost Overrun chart below illustrates the revenue collected by Ninja Division through crowdsourced funding, the costs Ninja Division has spent to date, and the total costs required for completion of the entire project through to delivery.
Questions and Answers
Over the past months, we have received many questions and want to provide answers to the most common ones we hear that were not addressed above.
Q: Is Ninja Division bankrupt/out of business?
No. Ninja Division continues to operate and pursue all available avenues to continue all our brands and provide backers with their rewards.
Q: Will I receive my rewards?
We have not given up. Every day we work towards the goal of delivering backers rewards and the revitalization of the brands and products we have spent a decade creating.
Looking Ahead
Despite our current difficulties, Ninja Division continues to doggedly pursue any and all avenues we can to get products to backers and bring new products to market featuring the brands our customers love. To that end, we are currently working under consultation to reorganize Ninja Division in order to better position it for success and secure investment.
As we proceed with our reorganization we have had partners and fans with operational, business, and financial acumen help us tremendously. If you have a professional skill set and passion in those areas, we would encourage you to reach out as we are working across various stages of consultation to repair components of our operation. As a bicameral entity, our business has sometimes been separated from our creative skill sets, and this realization makes us not too proud to seek professional assistance to ensure a stable and positive growth into the future.
Once we have concrete information regarding the company, new production, and fulfillment we will post another update. We thank you for taking the time to read through this lengthy announcement, as well as your continued patience.
Go Ninja Go!
If you cut through it:
* SPM can't afford any staff; OTOH, they have no product to sell, so that doesn't matter.
* SPM decided to rework the SDE:L project with no concept of delivery or cost, just burning cash on hand
* ALL 4 KS projects are ready to produce, if they just had the ~$1.2M required to press the buttons, but...
* SPM doesn't even have the ~$50k required to complete WotF (minis production & delivery)!
* SPM/ND hasn't yet filed for bankruptcy, pretending a miracle will occur
If you just want the three key points:
* SPM is a "zombie" company
* SPM has ~$2.5M in liabilities
* SPM has <$50k cash on hand
They are functionally bankrupt because they cannot pay the bills that are due, and nobody is coming out to save them.
But don't worry, SPM is still working on getting you your rewards! Honest!
(note that none of this should be news to anyone, aside from the financial picture being clarified)
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Post by: odinsgrandson
I can't help but think that this thread needs a little bit of an update.
- SPM have given/sold the Starfinder Minaitures contract to Archon (Prodos). Those are the guys who were slated to make the miniatures anyway, but remember that they said before that they had all of that product on hand, and were planning to destroy it if ND doesn't pay them.
Well, Archon has announced that they're planning on doing the whole line in plastic instead of resin. So if they ever actually had produced those minis in resin (which I seriously doubt) they threw them all away and decided to spend a lot more money on making plastic minis for backers.
Archon's plan is to produce Kickstarter miniatures alongside new sculpts for Starfinder and ship lots to backers every three release cycles or so. We'll see how that goes.
- SPM have been doing resin miniature releases, and say that they've paid off their debts to the domestic resin manufacturers that they work with. Their next goal is for their resin line of miniatures to pay for them to ship out the paper components for Relic Knights (that's cards and the mini rulebook). We haven't seen any of these show up yet.
- John Cadice has logged into the KS comments and promised some news soon, relating to Super Dungeon minis. Speculation among fans is that they're going to produce the Way of the Fighter miniatures (which include a number of minis for Super Dungeon). But that update hasn't materialized as of this writing, and is starting to seem a bit overdue.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Over a year passed, and zero updates to the thread.
Anyhow, I'm unsubscribing from this thread, as I got the bulk of my money back, and it looks like there's zero chance of SPM / ND ever producing and delivering the one set that I was actually interested in.
Good luck to you all, you're gonna need it.
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Post by: warboss
How did you get the bulk of your money back?
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
There was a refund window for a while. John and I snuck in just before that closed.
It was pretty clear it was going south, and both of us hopped out
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Post by: warboss
You chose wisely! 
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