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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
In the long run this probably is the best way to run these types of projects, but that doesn't keep me from wanting mini only add on palette swap class upgrade boxed sets that only unlock when we reach x amount of pledges.
After seeing how tiny the tokens were that came with Forgotten King, I'd rather they just stick to giving us the most bang for our buck rather than blinging out the game.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
I have to say, the game at its core must do something (or several things) very right, because here I am pledging and a portion of it is for Legends, which has almost zero details. It occurs to me that if Legends was really the sole core of this KS it would be one of the most horrific prospects ever, but as a part of something broader, I feel good about it.
As it stands I am excited for all the SDE content, and the easy entry as someone who owns none of it and who would have no concept of which add-ons would be good or (if this was run like a typical KS), feels great.
Now hopefully Legends adds meaningful weight, without just becoming a toolbox for RPG fans. I don't necessarily get worked up for a world-building lore book, but i'd love it if it added progression (which we know it is), but perhaps also note of random dungeon/quest generation, etc...
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Something a lot of people are forgetting about Legends is that it does include 10 extra (albeit smaller) tiles. I would also assume these are double sided, so at the very least it will give your games more variety, especially when the Consul is building their own boards.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
The wife and I are in for anything it offers for co-op players, specifically (and they have said all the campaign/adventures, etc... will support arcade mode), so my personal hope is that somehow those hallway/side-room tiles get integrated with the full-tiles in some kind of random map-maker.
Anything that can help cook up a Warhammer Quest-esque system for us to co-op would be terrific. :-p
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:I have to say, the game at its core must do something (or several things) very right, because here I am pledging and a portion of it is for Legends, which has almost zero details. It occurs to me that if Legends was really the sole core of this KS it would be one of the most horrific prospects ever, but as a part of something broader, I feel good about it.
As it stands I am excited for all the SDE content, and the easy entry as someone who owns none of it and who would have no concept of which add-ons would be good or (if this was run like a typical KS), feels great.
Now hopefully Legends adds meaningful weight, without just becoming a toolbox for RPG fans. I don't necessarily get worked up for a world-building lore book, but i'd love it if it added progression (which we know it is), but perhaps also note of random dungeon/quest generation, etc...
Yeah, right now, Legends has a tough time justifying a $80 MSRP. Particularly as it is still in Alpha, with the KS backers providing Beta test support. I wonder what retail will look like.
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Post by: nkelsch
 JohnHwangDD wrote:NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:I have to say, the game at its core must do something (or several things) very right, because here I am pledging and a portion of it is for Legends, which has almost zero details. It occurs to me that if Legends was really the sole core of this KS it would be one of the most horrific prospects ever, but as a part of something broader, I feel good about it.
As it stands I am excited for all the SDE content, and the easy entry as someone who owns none of it and who would have no concept of which add-ons would be good or (if this was run like a typical KS), feels great.
Now hopefully Legends adds meaningful weight, without just becoming a toolbox for RPG fans. I don't necessarily get worked up for a world-building lore book, but i'd love it if it added progression (which we know it is), but perhaps also note of random dungeon/quest generation, etc...
Yeah, right now, Legends has a tough time justifying a $80 MSRP. Particularly as it is still in Alpha, with the KS backers providing Beta test support. I wonder what retail will look like.
80$ without a single model will be troublesome. That dog won't hunt.
I will bet a dollar that we will see 6 pets in the core box, 6 Pets in the legends box and 6 NPCs in the legends box. And then a boxed set for the genderbent heroes.
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Post by: TheSecretSquig
Latest Stretch Goal is a Firefly called 'Miss Serenity Brown'. - Pure Win! 
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
A 7th pet? I wonder if SPM is going to make 2 sets of 6 Pets - that'd be great for variety sake! And much needed for the Wonder cards.
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Post by: DaveC
Some interesting comments from today
The NAS/ SDE crossover cards will be available in a future product. 
Unknown at this time. We had a great deal of success with Ninja All-Stars's Shrine Ninja getting detailed texture on the top, and clear distinction between feet and base for attached bases. So we are exploring it for Super Dungeon so that we can eliminate the unsightly slot and tab, which breaks up the surface of the base.
It would be great if they can finally get rid of the tab slot as it ruins the look of the otherwise great bases although it would mean feet attached to bases instead. In an ideal world they'd release a pack of solid bases without the tab slots but I don't see that happening.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
They could have the feet on pegs that go into little holes. Instead of huge slots, there might be a couple foot holes unfilled.
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Post by: nkelsch
Integrated bases warp in my experience. I would rather fill bases and have them be sturdy 'base' plastic than rubbery board game plastic.
A foot peg and industrial glue they use can easily replace slots if done correctly.
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Post by: ced1106
fyi, MIniature Market's Daily Deal today is Forgotten King for $60: http://www.miniaturemarket.com/spm210501.html
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Post by: Schmapdi
That's a ridiculously good deal!
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Sigh... of course I ordered it from them... three days ago. :-p
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Many brick and mortar stores (which they are) have a policy where if an item goes on sale within X days of purchase, you can get the difference back.
Maybe contact them about it?
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
I just gave it a shot. :-) Fingers crossed.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Naturally saw the deal of the day, went to check out (as my kids have been pissed I sold it off Forgotten King), and they were all gone.
Blah.
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Post by: ced1106
Last year, I picked up SDE 1.0 at a MM DotD for $50, and now it's $42 on Amazon. So, hopefully, we'll see this deal again.
Only one month until Black Friday!
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Post by: Errantsquire
I'm really excited to get this stuff when it releases. I know there have been some problems in the past but I still enjoy playing the new updated rule set. Having some more PVE focused campaigns will be great too! I talked to the developers at the last GenCON about the possibility of creating competitive PVP rules and they said that they were in the works. I've messed with the community PVP rules and found them to be ok but in need of some updates.
I also got into Relic Knights this year and it looks like they'll be starting their wave 2 pretty soon which means that they haven't given up on that game. After playing it I'd have to say that I the objective based gameplay coupled with the card resource management really felt fresh to me.
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Post by: DaveC
Soon and we will now be doing two add-ons. We maybe decided we had to do something AWESOME but it can only be done as an add-on, so we'll reveal the first one soon and the second one a bit closer to the end.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I see we got an update yesterday, for the Midnight Queen and Daemonus!
Do like! Automatically Appended Next Post: Soda Pop Miniatures wrote:Soon and we will now be doing two add-ons. We maybe decided we had to do something AWESOME but it can only be done as an add-on, so we'll reveal the first one soon and the second one a bit closer to the end.
Reading between the lines, it's obvious that King Starfire is coming, probably at the end.
The question is what next week's add-on will be. I'm thinking maybe a Beatrix-based Level Box with Jack as the Hero.
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Post by: DaveC
Another $100 possibly
Creator Soda Pop Miniatures less than a minute ago
It's not caverns. Price will be $50 each for those of you planning budgets.
I don't see them doing something with Beatrix and Jack as they are available now. It looks like one level type set and possibly King Starfire
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
$50 KS = $80 MSRP, but Level Boxes like TMT, VDM & COR are only $60 MSRP. So it'll have to be bigger. Maybe another "twins" Warband set like Frostbyte/Crown.
But definitely, King Starfire for the other, final add.
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Post by: MacMuckles
What is the difference between the Starfire we get in the set versus a potential King Starfire? Are they the same character, just one is "leveled up" (with a different sculpt/bigger size) ? Also, where can I read the lore of the world? I can't seem to find anything useful when I try to google it
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
King Starfire would be bigger and badder, more awesome and huge.
Legends will have a new big book of background lore, expanding greatly on what's in the Forgotten King book.
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Post by: nkelsch
If they want to learn to make massive plastic models like King Starfire... so be it. I don't feel like people will want a 50$ single model in board game plastic.
50$ is basically a Von Drakk 3-hero box.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
People pay as much, if not more for unassembled soft PVC Dragon models by Reaper, models with zero gaming content.
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Post by: Dentry
I actually put of purchasing Beatrix and Jack in case they make an appearance here in some form. With a fulfillment date of December 2016, I'm not sure that's going to be the case.
All the same, I'm eager to see the new(?) level box.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
 Dentry wrote:I actually put of purchasing Beatrix and Jack in case they make an appearance here in some form. With a fulfillment date of December 2016, I'm not sure that's going to be the case.
All the same, I'm eager to see the new(?) level box.
I used Miniature Market points and got Beatrix and Jack for $3 
They came today, nice stuff!
Also, I hope the add-ons are level packs. Specifically:
1. Clockwork Cove. We need Gnomes! Steampunk is also very popular right now.
2. Arcadian Dunes. Everyone wants Chibi Egyptian stuff, and it could be fun to go questing in Arcadia, especially if this expansion were to be released on, say, November 1st...
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
What's the significance of releasing an expansion on November 1st?
50 bucks for Starfire better net me at least a tile or two and a few extra heroes or mini bosses.
Will not pay 50 bucks for a board game plastic dragon alone, chibi or not. Maybe if it was still a resin model, but it isn't, so I'm a bit hesitant to swallow that price tag until I know more details.
I could get 2 or 3 reaper dragons of comparable size, or for a little more pick up that dragon god from the Bones 3 pledge manager.
Plus there's still Arcadia's Dragon that will get released, and I'm going to be it won't be that much.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Arcadia Quest: Inferno start date...
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Given the physical scale of SDE, I agree that King Starfire should not be +$50 / $80 MSRP. I assume it will include other stuff, but I'm not entirely sure what.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Is Inferno actually starting then? Was that confirmed somewhere?
Don't you dare get my hopes up!
That video with Rodney from Watch it Played with Spencer possibly?
At the very least, with the introduction of Legends for Super Dungeon Explore, we'll hopefully have all the built in tools to pull stuff from Arcadia Quest into SDE.
If Soda Pop doesn't get around to making S-Class figures, worst case is I could always pop a few AQ figures on the board instead.
I was a bit bummed that Sodapop aren't really giving much thought to putting together some sort of random dungeon builder a la Warhammer Quest. It was something they would think about in the future.
Ugh. We're already going to have a full blown rpg-lite board game here, why not go all the way? All I can hope is that they'll change their minds.
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Post by: Dentry
Releasing the add-ons November 1st makes sense. It competes with Arcadia Quest and is about half-way through the campaign so would help keep excitement up and somewhat curb the lull.
 Alex C wrote:I used Miniature Market points and got Beatrix and Jack for $3
They came today, nice stuff!
In light of your testimony and the Kingdom Death witches, I went ahead and ordered Beatrix and Jack from MM. Though my points only netted me $0.50 this time.
Ah well.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
New Update, looks like we're getting a Frost Dwarf / Giant / Ogre of some sort: The other shapes look like a dragon & knight.
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Post by: Cergorach
The two Bones Dragons Reaper currently sells are $75 (although significantly cheaper during the KS), but those are huge! And assembly isn't 20,000 parts like GW.
I have no problem forking over $50 for a dragon, I've paid more for them, but it better be freaking huge and cool looking!
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Post by: cincydooley
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Post by: Nostromodamus
From what I could gather on their FB page.
Obviously you would know better than me though...
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Post by: cincydooley
Alex C wrote:
From what I could gather on their FB page.
Obviously you would know better than me though...
I think a lot of that is coming from excited fans.
I'm not sure id put money on a Nov 1 launch.
I must say in a huge fan of the Pets offered here so far. The pet sculpts are some of my favorite.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Just had a Halloween-themed 3 Hero game!
Took over 4 hours to play.
Very fun, but that game length, Jesus...
Gotta find a way to speed things up. Maybe when rolling damage, do the difference in scores instead of just 1? I dunno, gotta do something though.
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Post by: -iPaint-
Alex C wrote:Just had a Halloween-themed 3 Hero game!
Took over 4 hours to play.
Very fun, but that game length, Jesus...
Gotta find a way to speed things up. Maybe when rolling damage, do the difference in scores instead of just 1? I dunno, gotta do something though.
This alone is probably why I haven't gotten this game on the table yet.
Part of me just wants to unload all my SDE stuff, but the figures are just too damn good to pass up on...
~iPaint
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Post by: Dentry
Female Deeproot Druid doesn't turn into a bear?! Madness! But adorable.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
And the second model is a Zombie Dragon with some Zombie Rats!
____
@Alex - 4 hours is grossly excessive for 3 Heroes. Heck, anything over 2 hours would be too much.
Consider playing more like Original, removing the Explore stuff and using the old Loot meter board? Or use the Retro variant instead?
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Post by: Nostromodamus
They're Zombie Kobolds, aren't they?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Zombie Kobolds, yes. That makes more sense.
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Post by: MacMuckles
Does this mean that there is no King Starfire coming out then? Or is this still part of the first add-on?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
SPM said there would be 2 addons, and the first does not appear to include King Starfire.
SPM has been silent about King Starfire, despite questions coming up and speculation.
SPM did, however, say that Caverns of Roxor 2.0 was not part of this KS.
Reading between the lines, one reasonably concludes that King Starfire is part of the second $50 add on.
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Post by: caylentor
I just had the email about the boss addon - it looks great, but when they say "To receive the add-on, increase your pledge by $50. After the campaign, you may specify the Bosses of Legend add-on in the pledge manager.", does that mean I can leave my current pledge as is and just buy later in the PM, or do I need to go up now?
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Post by: Nostromodamus
caylentor wrote:I just had the email about the boss addon - it looks great, but when they say "To receive the add-on, increase your pledge by $50. After the campaign, you may specify the Bosses of Legend add-on in the pledge manager.", does that mean I can leave my current pledge as is and just buy later in the PM, or do I need to go up now?
You can increase in the PM.
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Post by: BigOscar
Not followed any of SPM KS's before, but are they likely to actually show any more sculpts, renders or even concept designs of the minis, or will it all just be cartoon sketches? I was at the very least expecting to see the models in the Midnight Tower level box at some point.
The boss box sounds great in theory, but again it's pretty hard to tell with so little information and artwork. They seem to have released very little information throughout the whole KS, other than the stuff that they put up to start with, the updates have pretty much just been pictures of the SG's that have been broken. Presumably they've given out more info in the comments, but who has the time to search through thousands of comments?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
And the Bosses of Legend add-on is fully revealed:
3 Bosses & 18 Creeps, with Explore & Treasure card sets for +$50.
If you like any 2 of the 3 sculpts, then grab the deal as the 3rd is "free" (compared to $25 MSRP).
____
@Oscar - there should be some more renders, but this is a KS, so they show what they have ready, and you have to accept that production may vary somewhat from concept or render.
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Post by: Dentry
The stone and skull creeps don't seem as good as (undead) kobolds. Makes the add-on feel less valuable.
I really like the bosses, though. I imagine Wintersson in particular should be an impressive model.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Creeps are "Insignificant", so they aren't supposed to be impressive at all. I agree the Frost Giant is the best of the bunch.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Think I'll pass on that one, got plenty of Bosses already.
Hopefully the other add-on has content along the lines of new tiles and/or Warbands, that's more my thang.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
Disappointing that the creeps for the Frost Giant aren't little ice elementals, evil snow-men, or something similar.
I can see ice crystals trying to be like him just being near causes temperatures to plummet but not sure that translates out to the creeps he has.
He looks like he has potential though.
Mordred could be nice, and his creeps are fine, if only he had a non Destiny helmet (maybe its because Destiny just had their Halloween mask bit, but I swear I see the Oryx mask or Kell mask looking at him).
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Post by: Dentry
I'm thinking of using the Frostbyte Ravagers in conjuction with the Frost Giant. The stones might look good once all is said and done, but the frost orcs are a good backup, too.
So I'm probably going to up my pledge for this.
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Post by: Schmapdi
Geesh - and another 15 + stretch goals to go. They have really upped the freebies in comparison to TFK and NAS it feels like. Even if a lot of them are small pet models - pets are awesome! I had great fun painting the ones from TFK.
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Post by: nkelsch
I think they have managed this campaign well, No Fake stretches, good value from day one, simplified fullfillment model...
But I wonder where the missing 2500 people from TFK are.
I know the end of TFK had like 2000 people on the last 3 days so if they end up with more backers than TFK, then I think that is a show of success for the 'big box' pledge model.
If they shed backers from TFK to SDE 2.0, I think that might be something for companies to think about. It might be hard to tell if it is people who had problems with TFK, didn't want a 150$ pledge point or people who simply don't want a second core box.
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Post by: Schmapdi
Honestly - I'd guess a good chunk of them (like me) simply are currently overflowing with SDE minis already and not keen on the idea of getting what is likely to be 150+ more by campaign's end.
They're simply going too fast - faster than even the most hardcore fans can begin to exhaust the content.
I will likely end up pledging, just because the deal is too good to pass on. But I don't have near the excitement level I did for TFK.
Plus I don't think TFK was such a short campaign either? That will likely knock the subscriber numbers down too. I have to say though, whether it leads to extra freebies or not. I am a big fan of the "simplified" campaigns.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
The core FK offer amounted to 100 models for $100, with the ability to add up to $200, $300 worth of stuff via a couple dozen a la carte options. Also, FK got a huge number of backers on the last couple days.
The current Legends offer is ~100 models for $150 with 3 softback books and a mandatory $50 (SDE 2.0 -or- paired Crown + Frosbyte warbands ) option tacked on. Instead of the vast menu of a la carte choices in FK, you can pay another $50 to add the other core option, 3 Bosses, and/or another add to be named later (assumed King Starfire).
The Legends offer basically asks the backer to pay an extra $50 up front for new rules and printed materials that may or may not have value to how they play, and/or to accept a fixed set of models that may or may not be things they are specifically interested in.
Compared to FK, Legends is less flexible and less tailored to each backer, and it may have a somewhat lower model per dollar value.
I believe that Legends is basically tracking FK, and will see a similar large bump at the end. I think Legends will easily break $800k, and finish around $1M. I don't think Legends will surpass FK, but I could be wrong.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I'm mainly not backing this one as I've no money to spare at the moment (and won't during the PM period either),
but I also don't think the value is quite as good (especially if you don't want the re-do of the core box), and resculpts are never as exciting as original material
but I think it will end up about the same as FK if not better
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Post by: Bioptic
I've said this before, but I think the problem is that a lot of people are made to choose between:
1) New Base Game: Re-sculpts of models they already have and may have already painted, but with printed revised rules and new tiles, more dice etc.
2) Warbands: Limited set of monsters that don't fit with any 'theme' they already have in abundance (Dragon, Rock/Fire, Undead, Forest), when they probably have too much of this content anyway.
But then I need to balance this against the fact that the $150 pledge is equivalent to...two level boxes in the UK. And comes with all of those adorable pets.
I think the greatest crime of the boss pack is that it makes me think of Darksiders rather than Zelda, honestly.
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Post by: nkelsch
The thing is, people want mountains of freebies and stretches and don't want to pay for them. They want to be the one who does the core pledge only while 'someone else' buys the close to retail paid add-ons to cover the loss.
The force bundling of the midnight tower and warbands which are effectively paid add-ons at close to retail price are there to cover the costs. Without them, they get into a situation where people pledge 100$ for a deep discount and then get 100$ of content with no money to fund it.
The argument is the forced bundling potentially drives people away. But if it is successful, I think we will see more of it as logistics have become a costly nightmare as well as extending the schedule by months sometimes. Now China can pre-pack everything and there is no need to hunt down 13-20 individual units to pack each order.
Personally, this works for me because I am usually all-in for stuff I like to back, and it forces others to pony up. But I will be interested to see if forced bundling and big-box pledging is going to be a success and the trend of 2016 KS.
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Post by: Bioptic
I suspect my complaints are because I'm finally running out of space to store all the boardgames that I've "maximised"! Something like Zombicide is no joke, even with just the 5 "core boxes", but the contents of the S3 Kickstarter alone...
But I absolutely agree that the forced bundling is a good way for them to save money, and at least they gave 3 options. Ninja All-Stars, with its "Choose 2 or 4 or these 6 different teams" approach must be a nightmare for them in that regard.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
When a project pulls $700k+, $1M+, CMoN and SPM don't lose any money on core pledges. They would probably be more profitable selling 10,000x $100 core pledges with ZERO adds than 5,000 pledges of $100+$100 adds out of a $400 option list.
In the case of SDE:L, SPM is trying to have their cake and eat it, too, with a more expensive core pledge that contains roughly the same amount of content as the FK:pledge. It's yet at the point that it's obvious that the bundled content is high enough to offset the inflexibility.
As for NAS, SPM's campaign didn't go the way they wanted, but that's mostly their fault for trying to force backers to do things their way, vs the way that backers wanted. Backer revolt caused SPM to completely restructure the pledges and make the Clan picks more flexible.
In SDE:L, it doesn't look like there's the same type of issue because the "take it or leave it" offer suggests that complaint and negotiation is largely fruitless. Less than half of the FK backers are backing Legends, and the Boss set take only has a 1/3 take rate, with only a <10% "wait-and-see". If SPM was hoping SDE:L would surpass FK like Zombicide consistently surpasses previous season, that's not really happening.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Schmapdi wrote:Honestly - I'd guess a good chunk of them (like me) simply are currently overflowing with SDE minis already and not keen on the idea of getting what is likely to be 150+ more by campaign's end.
They're simply going too fast - faster than even the most hardcore fans can begin to exhaust the content.
I will likely end up pledging, just because the deal is too good to pass on. But I don't have near the excitement level I did for TFK.
Plus I don't think TFK was such a short campaign either? That will likely knock the subscriber numbers down too. I have to say though, whether it leads to extra freebies or not. I am a big fan of the "simplified" campaigns.
Its probably worth mentioning again that this KS fulfills in more than a year... With the SDE release calendar apparently empty after the currently in pre-order Warbands, I imagine that gives people a whole year to feel starved for content.
Feast or famine?
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Post by: DaveC
Deke mentioned they have 3 years worth of SDE releases planned out. There will probably be a few non KS releases next year like Beatrix and Jack
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Won't SPM be pushing out the NAS and RK2 stuff as well?
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Post by: Schmapdi
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Schmapdi wrote:Honestly - I'd guess a good chunk of them (like me) simply are currently overflowing with SDE minis already and not keen on the idea of getting what is likely to be 150+ more by campaign's end.
They're simply going too fast - faster than even the most hardcore fans can begin to exhaust the content.
I will likely end up pledging, just because the deal is too good to pass on. But I don't have near the excitement level I did for TFK.
Plus I don't think TFK was such a short campaign either? That will likely knock the subscriber numbers down too. I have to say though, whether it leads to extra freebies or not. I am a big fan of the "simplified" campaigns.
Its probably worth mentioning again that this KS fulfills in more than a year... With the SDE release calendar apparently empty after the currently in pre-order Warbands, I imagine that gives people a whole year to feel starved for content.
Feast or famine?
True - but I would have to paint like a fiend to even come close to finishing everything from TFK by then, and everyone who has "everything" thus far has reached the point where they could effectively play 3 games a day of SDE and never play the same game twice if they didn't want to. There are sooo many boss/mini boss/spawns/tiles/heros/creeps combos already. Plus SDE just released a new boss and hero for Halloween and hinted at having some releases next year as well.
It's just starting to feel like they are milking it imo. it's been only 3 months since I got box 2 of my huge TFK pledge! I quite liked the "one level box and a few misc heroes/mini bosses" a year pattern they had previously. They have such a huge base of product now they don't need to grow it by 200 minis at a time.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
You're flush with TFK stuff right now, but how will you feel in December, 2016? 13 months from now, assuming no delays? Will you still be sated, or will you want more at that point?
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
nkelsch wrote:The thing is, people want mountains of freebies and stretches and don't want to pay for them. They want to be the one who does the core pledge only while 'someone else' buys the close to retail paid add-ons to cover the loss.
The force bundling of the midnight tower and warbands which are effectively paid add-ons at close to retail price are there to cover the costs. Without them, they get into a situation where people pledge 100$ for a deep discount and then get 100$ of content with no money to fund it.
The argument is the forced bundling potentially drives people away. But if it is successful, I think we will see more of it as logistics have become a costly nightmare as well as extending the schedule by months sometimes. Now China can pre-pack everything and there is no need to hunt down 13-20 individual units to pack each order.
Personally, this works for me because I am usually all-in for stuff I like to back, and it forces others to pony up. But I will be interested to see if forced bundling and big-box pledging is going to be a success and the trend of 2016 KS.
SO much this. Plus with a guaranteed near million in funding, why would bigger campaigns or companies want dick around with a bunch of irritating à la carte pricing/packing/shipping?
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Post by: Schmapdi
JohnHwangDD wrote:You're flush with TFK stuff right now, but how will you feel in December, 2016? 13 months from now, assuming no delays? Will you still be sated, or will you want more at that point?
I guarantee I will be sated. I am assuming most SDE fans also collect or play at least 1-2 other games on the side as well. How will you feel if they launch SDE Kickstarter #3 in March of 2017?
I mean, I suppose if SDE were my only game, and only hobby. Then sure.
But geesh, I'm REALLY glad I didn't pledge for NAS now. I would have liked too - but had just gotten too much SDE stuff. But I imagine there is a fairly high crossover. How does SPM expect people to keep up?
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Post by: insaniak
nkelsch wrote:The thing is, people want mountains of freebies and stretches and don't want to pay for them.
I don't. I just want 2.0 and Legends for something in between $60 and $150...
Adding the extra stuff and pricing the 'core' pledges at $150 has me really thinking hard about whether I want to put that much money into a game I've never played.
Freebies are nice, but not somethign that I consider when deciding to pledge.
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Post by: nkelsch
 insaniak wrote:nkelsch wrote:The thing is, people want mountains of freebies and stretches and don't want to pay for them.
I don't. I just want 2.0 and Legends for something in between $60 and $150...
Adding the extra stuff and pricing the 'core' pledges at $150 has me really thinking hard about whether I want to put that much money into a game I've never played.
Freebies are nice, but not something that I consider when deciding to pledge.
Would you pay 120$ for legends and Core 2.0 with no stretch goals? Because that is what it would effectively be without bundles. (and that would basically be MSRP -20%)
Some people want a 100$ pledge point for legends and Core 2.0 with all the stretches, and I suspect the revenue lost from removing forced bundling would not be covered by new pledges, especially if the stretches were there.
Honestly tho, apart from the piles of stretches giving value, there is no reason not to wait for retail for those who are not aware of the game.
150$ now = 60$ + 60$ + 50$ later when you consider internet discounters. So I think 20$ is worth paying later is you are unsure.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
@Schmapdi, I think, for me... I just come from a player-base that loves games approaching infinite value. I like procedural games, for example, just because I like the idea of never being able to exhaust content.
So if I get into a game I am always of a "the more the merrier" school. If we like TFK + Von Drakk, then I know i'll got back and hunt down every single release to date, and will still happily get my KS pledge for this, etc...
As i've said, my only personal wish is some kind of random dungeon generator for Legends, but I believe someone said they outright shot that idea down?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
TBH, a truly random dungeon isn't necessarily ideal if the games already run long. At least a fixed dungeon has a clear end point.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I think for a randomized dungeon, it should be based on x number of spawns and y number of tiles.
I still wish there was a random building factor like in Warhammer Quest. Maybe some sort of random objective I need to accomplish as well.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
 highlord tamburlaine wrote:I think for a randomized dungeon, it should be based on x number of spawns and y number of tiles.
I still wish there was a random building factor like in Warhammer Quest. Maybe some sort of random objective I need to accomplish as well.
This is exactly what I would want.
Again, don't make it mandatory, and let people have their pre-baked adventures/campaigns, etc... But as it stands, "Legends" is just a cardboard + paper toolbox of ways to make SDE take longer/become more complex, optionally.
In my case, I am ALL for that. Give me all the clunk and crunch in a big, fat, unwieldy randomized, campaign system. I would love a game with this aesthetic, and the kind of meat that still lets Warhammer Quest make for an unexpected evening (sometimes too easy, sometimes brutally unfair... but always a new experience).
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I wonder if it's worth pushing for an idea like this in the comments.
They picked up on the whole spider thing, which I personally thought was the typical cheesy comment injoke nonsense, and turned it into a stretch goal.
Maybe if there's enough demand/ pressure from backers, we can see a randomized dungeon romp included with Legends. Seems like it wouldn't require that much effort or energy on their part, would it?
Just a thought.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
The spider thing was easy, because it was just running the existing model with a different color and packing in an extra card. Basically "free" to SPM, compared to sculpting and producing a new model from scratch.
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Post by: nkelsch
What is the random thing you guys want? The game set up is already pretty arbitrary. You pick number of heroes, set up that many tiles, pick that many spawns and play a game.
How hard is it to simply 'randomize' those choices? Now we need 'cards' to tell us what random 'card' to play?
Randomize heroes: put all available hero cards in a deck and randomly pull x number
Randomize monsters: put all available monster spawns in a deck and randomly pull x number spawns.
Is there something more I am missing?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
If you've ever played a Roguelike, I think that's the concept. Automatically Appended Next Post: After the 2nd Spider, we're getting a MLP homage?  Really? I had no idea this was where the campaign was going.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
So, the idea of a procedural dungeon generator calls to mind more than "which tiles will you build from". Games like WHQ would have massive encounter tables that could be far more than what enemies spawn, and which might include traps, hidden treasures, etc...
Essentially its a perfect fit for what it SOUNDS like they want Legends to be. As it stands it is... kind of a campaign system, and kind of a "baby's first pnp RPG"... Problem is, they haven't built it yet, so even they can't tell us what they're really shooting for.
But hey... if you're gonna have progression, and mid-adventure visits to town/shops... you might as well go all the way and add town-encounter tables, a dungeon randomizer, etc... and massively bulk out the game's longevity for a certain part of the gaming community.
I'm all for voicing that with you Highlord. I think as long as it is said that it is a perfect extension of the game, and adds massive (read: infinite" content) it could also be sold to backers as a huge get, and value extender to the Legends portion of this KS.
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Post by: DaveC
JohnHwangDD wrote:If you've ever played a Roguelike, I think that's the concept.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
After the 2nd Spider, we're getting a MLP homage?
Really? I had no idea this was where the campaign was going.
I'm surprised they havent done it before I know from talking to Tom at Impact! That the chibi pony stuff out sells all their other chibi stuff by some margin people can't get enough of it I don't get it myself but there's a big market for it.
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Post by: BigOscar
I think my girlfriend just exploded at the sight of that silly MLP flying unicorn. She loves that sort of nonsense. They've pretty much nailed the super cutesy stuff with the pets on this one and that thing will probably tip a fair few people over the edge. Not to everyones taste but very smart move as a lot of people go mental for that stuff
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
@Dave - I had no clue there was such an overlap, nor big profit there, but hey, if it works, it works. Can't fault SPM for cashing in where the cash is.
____
@NewTruth - I thought Legends addresses the 1E concept of retaining Loot / Treasure between games as Heroes gain experience. A Roguelike dungeon maker is a different thing altogether, and I think nkelsh has the bits for randomly populating each space. The trick is having something that scales well for 6x6 rooms vs 4x8 hallways vs 12x12 tiles, along with the business of specifying whether the next space is room / tile / hallway / closed.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
See, i'm not sure if any of us are right, mostly as SPM hasn't given us a ton of concrete info. For instance, I thought before the KS they said they would outright not be having loot persist between adventures, because they were going with some sort of "disenchant" concept?
Again... hard to get solid info on a rather ephemeral, concept they had only sort of figured out themselves. :-p
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Holding Loot and esp. Treasure between adventures is too strong in many cases, which is why they make players disenchant stuff. But the idea of collecting stuff that makes better stuff is still there.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I've tried posting stuff in the comments... a few times now.
Every time it seems to get lost in the shuffle of in jokes and complaining.
As it stands they totally could gear this up to be that type of roguelike crawl I have wanted for some time.
Hell, if you own all the expansions, you've got a heck of a bestiary to work from already.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
highlord tamburlaine wrote:I've tried posting stuff in the comments... a few times now.
Every time it seems to get lost in the shuffle of in jokes and complaining.
As it stands they totally could gear this up to be that type of roguelike crawl I have wanted for some time.
Hell, if you own all the expansions, you've got a heck of a bestiary to work from already.
From my experience SPM only responds if they like you or you ask the same thing 10 times in rapid succession.
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Post by: nkelsch
I know some people are 'totes hating' on the pony... but I really like the concept. If you read the description, it is an evil scary man-eating horse monster which uses its latent unicorn power to give victims a cute appearance to disarm them.
Sounds like a good dungeon monster to me. Get'em Nethercorn, Geeeeeeeeeeeeet'eeeeem!
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Post by: cincydooley
I'll sell you mine so you can have two :-)
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
You know, Highlord... if it takes repeating something in rapid succession, i'm all for doing that with you.
I cannot undersell how much I would like this Legends release to offer a way to convert this system into the dream dungeon-crawl I have wanted for far too long.
Its criminal that so few games have even seriously attempted it between Warhammer Quest, and now.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Don't the D&D games do some of that? I see that their rooms are smaller & modular, right?
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
JohnHwangDD wrote:Don't the D&D games do some of that? I see that their rooms are smaller & modular, right?
They do, but they are also incredibly shallow game systems. I've never played a game where I so quickly was able to "figure out" how the game works, and thus always know the optimal move. There is functionally zero room to play, with the correct action always being obvious.
That said, they're fun as little intro-to-dungeon-crawl board-games, but entirely without depth, or persistence (there are no campaign elements, just a chain of really bland quests from a small quest-book). Honestly, the quest-book in those games is my worry for the fate of SDE: Legends, as it sounds like they would rather throw walls of ready made adventures at us, then go the extra step of letting the game generate procedural ones.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Oh, got it. BTW, have you ever played Robinson Crusoe?
Nothing wrong with Adventure scenarios / campaigns. Although I don't think it'd be too difficult to create rules for the generator, once the pieces become clear.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Seems a waste to skip on it when the pieces are already there though.
I get they want to have cutesy adventures all planned out in advance, but sometimes I just want to set stuff up and knock them all back down without a whole lot of thought and story involved.
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Post by: GrimDork
So I've never really looked too far into the SDE stuff but this looks kind of cute/entertaining at a glance.
Anyone care to give a n00b the rundown on what to expect from a sodapop campaign (on time, delayed, quality turns out as expected, rewards compared to buying it at discount retail down the road). I'd greatly appreciate it, haven't got a lot of time to dig for information right now.
I was considering picking up the current main game box to venture into painting these freaky big-eyed minis but it would seem that they've redone all those miniatures to what I can only assume is a greater level of quality? I also see that the true buy in is more along the lines of 150, or 200 if you want the extra goodies...
Anyway thought I could keep an eye on it by posting here, thanks for any information as well.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
The original box is going to have to be built by you if you buy it GrimDork.
Forgotten King, the one that just got Kickstarted in the last year or so is all prebuilt and has the solo/coop rules with it.
The campaign was pretty well run, regular communication each week (even if there wasn't anything newsworthy to report), slight delays but they were very clear about it pretty early on. The value of the freebies was pretty decent, considering the extra warband they tossed in is at least 35 at retail, and the game itself seems to hover close to 70 dollars on average. We also got 4 extra heroes that are between 9-15 dollars depending on where you shop, as well as some super tiny 3d tokens that got tossed by the wayside.
Their Ninja All Stars is wrapping up and soon to be in backers' hands in the hopefully near future.
I'd say if you're interested, wait til Thanksgiving and see if Forgotten King ends up getting cleared out from the online shops at a cheaper price point. Miniature Market already had it as a deal of the day for 60, so I have a feeling we might see it pop up again at a similar price somewhere in the next few weeks.
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Post by: GrimDork
Huh good to know. This all started when I randomly got the chibi addons in the pledge manager for bones 3. But I was vaguely curious about the game anyway.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
 GrimDork wrote:So I've never really looked too far into the SDE stuff but this looks kind of cute/entertaining at a glance.
Anyone care to give a n00b the rundown on what to expect from a sodapop campaign (on time, delayed, quality turns out as expected, rewards compared to buying it at discount retail down the road). I'd greatly appreciate it, haven't got a lot of time to dig for information right now.
I was considering picking up the current main game box to venture into painting these freaky big-eyed minis but it would seem that they've redone all those miniatures to what I can only assume is a greater level of quality? I also see that the true buy in is more along the lines of 150, or 200 if you want the extra goodies...
Anyway thought I could keep an eye on it by posting here, thanks for any information as well.
SDE is very cute, and the original game was surprisingly tight.
Sure! SPM has been involved in 4 KS campaigns to date:
1. Relic Knights via CMoN - this ran about a year late; I suspect the delay can is partly SPM and mostly CMoN, given that CMoN tried to feth SPM during the Wave 2 fulfillment and then took the concept for the game in-house for WoK.
2. Robotech Tactics via Palladium Books - this also ran about a year late, but it appears that this is mostly Palladium, who haven't done gak on Wave 2 without SPM / ND.
3. SDE : Forgotten King - as their first self-run KS this ran a little late, due to reasons, but at least SPM was on the ball with keeping backers in the loop via consistent weekly updates.
4. Ninja All Stars - their second self-run KS looks like they are doing OK against the "Dec 2015" target date, and they are on the ball with consistent weekly updates.
In general, SPM has good quality product and they do deliver. The SDE : FK product met expectations, aside from the Deeproot Wolf rider. The NAS stuff looks like it'll be good as well. SPM offers a fair discount in their KS, and the KS bundles are OK. The current main box is Forgotten King and it's a very nice set; SDE 2.0 will complement it nicely. The 2.0 models will break the CMoN link and be more consistent with FK and other new product in scale and style.
The $150 bundle with SDE 2.0 is where I would start as a new player. The Warbands aren't critical, nor the extra Bosses - you can get them later. Besides, you will have plenty of stuff from Midnight Tower for variety. If you pledge, I'd recommend you look for Forgotten King on Black Friday, to play a bit before you stuff arrives a year later (Dec. 2016).
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
What was the issue with the Deeproot Wolf rider? That was one of the few extra heroes I didn't get, and was hoping to nab at retail.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
For whatever reason, SPM didn't include the bedroll that sits behind the rider, so there is a noticable missing spot in the saddle and rear of the model:
You'll want to break out the green stuff for that.
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Post by: GrimDork
Ahh thanks John, good information  I was figuring it was pledge $150 or bust, which is a bit higher of a buy in than I prefer (though not necessarily higher than I expect) but it gives me something to think about. Now to do that thinking..
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Post by: ced1106
GrimDork wrote:I was considering picking up the current main game box to venture into painting these freaky big-eyed minis but it would seem that they've redone all those miniatures to what I can only assume is a greater level of quality? I also see that the true buy in is more along the lines of 150, or 200 if you want the extra goodies...
Well, the post I read said the new sculpts were made because they're easier to manufacture. I prefer the SDE 1.0 base game because the miniatures (base game only) are un-assembled so are easier to paint, and the game's heavily discounted. I also haven't read any serious criticisms of the SDE 1.0 game system or rules.
If you want all the chibis and the rules, SDE 2.x is still gonna cost you. I don't have time to play SDE, so just the base game and an expansion should be fine with me. Bought it last year and finally removed the shrinkwrap from the boards last month. 
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Post by: Necros
So.. is SDE a good and easy to learn game for kids? Or what about Arcadia Quest? Always looking for stuff to play with my nephews, they're age 6, 9 and 14
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
IMO, SDE is fine for kids; however, if you want to play with kids, be prepared to do a bunch of the Game Mastering to set up the game and to manage the flow as the Consul to manage the monsters in "Classic" mode. You may look at streamlining the game a la "Retro" house rules to prevent things from bogging down.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
 Necros wrote:So.. is SDE a good and easy to learn game for kids? Or what about Arcadia Quest? Always looking for stuff to play with my nephews, they're age 6, 9 and 14
Arcadia Quest is very much PvP, it's a very fun game, but if they'd end up always picking on the littlest one or getting upset when their brother did them over it may not suit
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Post by: Necros
ah.. I don't think Arcadia Quest would work then, mostly looking for a co op kinda game where they could each pick 1 hero and play. I don't mind being the GM, in fact it would probably be better that way to keep it moving since they have video game attention spans
I tried Decent and invested in a few of the expansions but there were a lot of rules and all those different cards and stuff. I want something that's simple (or can be simplified) fast and fun
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Post by: Cryptek of Awesome
I want to pledge this but I have to say it feels like this KS has an identity crisis.
It seems initially like it's very focused on SDE Legends - the RPG But then you look at the pledge levels and strangely enough, the one thing you can't buy separately is SDE Legends...
So ok - that's ok I have a shelf full of RPGs and no time to play them all so in fact I just want to buy SDE version 2.0 and avoid the RPG. So I can for $60 but I don't get any of the sweet gender-swapped heroes? Ok... so the only way to get them is jump up almost an extra $100 and get saddled with the RPG I don't want? And the other Pledge level is two sweet warband boxes for SDE but they drop the SDE v2.0 box and bundle in the RPG again? 
Seems totally bizarre!
Where's the SDE v2 + expansion + extras for $120 or $150? Wouldn't that make more sense? And if they wanted to push the RPG - why is there no RPG-only pledge (except for the digital only)?
Like - I ain't even mad here.... I'm really digging my Forgotten King box and wanted to get in on this but I'm literally too confused to pledge.
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Post by: nkelsch
Cryptek of Awesome wrote:
Where's the SDE v2 + expansion + extras for $120 or $150? Wouldn't that make more sense? And if they wanted to push the RPG - why is there no RPG-only pledge (except for the digital only)?
It is at retail in 2017...
Basically you want deeper discount and more models without paying for the full price paid add-ons which cover the costs of all the stretches. They did forced bundling to cover costs.
Big box or wait for retail. The KS is for legends so all the pledges have it.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Nobody mentioned the new hero as the latest stretch goal, did they?
Considering we haven't seen the final add on yet, and the rate things are moving, plus not even getting to the 48 hour mark, there's no worries we'll see this lunar knight.
That will be the third extra hero figure added in, but if you include all the mini- bosses and NPC sculpts, you're looking at around 10 new figures to count as heroes, not even counting the alternate sculpts from the base game.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a 4th hero show up before this is all done.
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Post by: Cryptek of Awesome
nkelsch wrote:
Basically you want deeper discount and more models without paying for the full price paid add-ons which cover the costs of all the stretches. They did forced bundling to cover costs.
Big box or wait for retail. The KS is for legends so all the pledges have it.
That's what is confusing me though - the only thing you CAN'T buy separately in physical form is Legends...I can buy SDE 2.0 for $60 but I can't buy legends (if I wanted it) by itself.
I understand that bundle=discount, it's just surprising that, like, if SDE2.0 is $60, SDE + Legends + 1 expansion + freebies is $150, Legends +2 expansions + freebies is $150.
So you're naturally looking for that SDE+2 expansions+freebies for $150/$160 bundle.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I think SPM knows nobody is buying Legends as a standalone yet - it's not even Beta ready. That's why they're bundling it.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Legends is a hard sell. I mean, on the very front of the KS page they admit they can't even tease rules/concepts, because they don't even fully know what it is.
If Legends was the only part of this KS it would be laughed off immediately. It was very smart to just make it a corner of a far broader KS package.
Which isn't to say it might not be awesome, just that it could never carry a KS at this stage.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I think Legends is at the concept stage, but I don't think it's gotten Alpha rules. It'll be months before Legends reaches Beta playtesting, and is likely the sticky wicket that is pushing the overall delivery to December 2016...
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Post by: Cryptek of Awesome
JohnHwangDD wrote:I think SPM knows nobody is buying Legends as a standalone yet - it's not even Beta ready. That's why they're bundling it.
Ahhh ok that explains it. Thanks.
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Post by: nkelsch
Agree... I guarantee if they had a 2.0+tower+warbands+stretches for 150$ they would see an overwhelming amount of people choosing that which would defeat the purpose of funding creation of legends. Hence the forced bundling to force revenue to exist for development of legends.
Of course if legends is a huge turd, then SPM will lose all future support for non-mini based campaigns as they will have shown themselves not able to create rules. It all depends if NAS is good and if legends works as intended otherwise there will be 3 KS with unsatisfactory rules back to back.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Hell yes. If I could swap Legends for the Bosses, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
As we saw with the TFK and NAS rules, SPM isn't necessarily spot on with their rules writing and testing. Taking known quality minis over variable quality rules is not a hard choice.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
If I can ask, what was wrong with the TFK rules? I read them before backing, and they look fine to me, if not great. A little unwieldy/wordy, sure, but not inherently bad in any way.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I think some are finding they make the game take longer to play than 1.0
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:If I can ask, what was wrong with the TFK rules?
A little unwieldy/wordy, sure, but not inherently bad in any way.
The TFK Classic rules lacks the tension of 1.0's Original rules. Basically, the TFK rules tacked a lot of stuff onto the Original rules, like generic actions, Explore, Princess Coins, Keys, etc. and that slows the game down. Players are encouraged to farm, and there aren't the same mechanisms to push the game forward. Also, the pace and balance is very different, because the game quickly shifts to 1 Hero vs 1 Boss + 4 skulls. If you're used to the Original, it's "off" and it can be very slow, which is where the game just takes longer than before.
So no, it's not inherently bad, unless you have an expectation that the game is lean and mean and finishes within 2 hours.
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Post by: akai
I wonder if those Legends rulebooks are going to be similar in size to D&D rulebooks or more toward the Super Dungeon Explore sizes.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Bunches of new stuff teased today:  - unlocked!   Plus stretch goals to $1M...
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Post by: nkelsch
I like the designs... The orc is ace and I am looking forward to boss pack part deux. I do think we have reached pet overload.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Waiting until X-mas for the wife and I to begin playing, but am I right in thinking there are now an insane amount of boss options? Wouldn't most players prefer interesting/unique heroes instead of several more boxes worth of bosses?
Or is it something that has been needed for Consul players in Classic mode?
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Generally the call has been for more Bosses/monsters rather than characters
people quickly end up with favourites or just parties that synergise well together and the rest never see much play
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
More Dungeon Bosses (and Pets) are the correct call. If you look at the current mix of ALL the types of things that have been released, there are huge numbers of Heroes, a moderate number of mini-Bosses & spawn point types, but a paucity of Dungeon Bosses:
- Starfire (OOP)
- King Starfire (OOP)
- Von Drak
- Roxor
- the Forgotten King
- Goro
+ Beatrix
That's it, just 5 Dungeon Bosses you can buy right now.
With Legends, we add:
- the Midnight Queen
- 6 other Bosses
and return Starfire back into production, for a dozen different Dungeon Bosses to battle against.
In the grand context of things, adding more Bosses was the correct thing to do.
Same thing with going from a grand total of 6 Pets (from TFK) to 18 Pets - now there's some variety to them.
___
Forgot Beatrix. Oops.
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Post by: DaveC
Don't forget Beatrix from the Dungeon Boss list
One of sculptors posted some of his work in comments earlier
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I wonder why SPM is so cagey about revealing the other Bosses. That's kinda nuts.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I assumed they were waiting for the 48 hour mark.
Or to actually hit the 900k mark, which is weird, as knowing what's waiting would probably speed that up.
I'm sure we'll see soon enough.
I like the fact that we'll more than likely get extra tiles now with the Tower set. That's a pretty sweet deal we get the total that high.
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Post by: DaveC
Waiting for the 48 hour mark but they've jumped the gun by 57 minutes!
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
I dig the Surtur/Hephaestus fire giant. To bad he didn't come with the Frost Giant as a set.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
This is clearly better than the first one, though it's not obvious what the Forge Gnomes look like.
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Post by: B0B MaRlEy
I really love the owlbears
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Yowlbear mama makes me think of Kromac from Hordes.
Maybe it's all the skulls and junk dangling off her.
Curious what those Forge Gnomes will look like as well.
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Post by: Dentry
 Maniac_nmt wrote:I dig the Surtur/Hephaestus fire giant. To bad he didn't come with the Frost Giant as a set.
Well... for a $100 they do come as a set! Haha! Hah!
Like the first boss pack more but Mother Noctua and her yowlings are definitely something I'm getting. So it looks like I'm in for both add-ons.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Thanks to Boss-Pack #2 it looks like I will have the chibi-Skarbrand I never asked for. :-p
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Post by: Rainyday
I'm having a real hard time resisting the $200 pledge. I don't really need SDE 2.0, but those new sculpts are really nice.
I'm still not sure how I'm going to store all this stuff. Has anyone found a decent way to store all their SDE sets? Most figure cases aren't really sized for chibi figures, and some of the bosses/mini-bosses are relatively large and oddly shaped (Looking at you, Glimmerwing).
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Post by: Schmapdi
Mine fill three (going to be 5) shelves of my display case.
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Post by: ced1106
 Rainyday wrote: I'm still not sure how I'm going to store all this stuff. Has anyone found a decent way to store all their SDE sets? Most figure cases aren't really sized for chibi figures, and some of the bosses/mini-bosses are relatively large and oddly shaped (Looking at you, Glimmerwing).
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/16/16405.phtml
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Wow, they broke $1M today, on track for $1.15M. That's better than I had expected.
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
Whats the point of the completionist pledge? its just the cost of everything added up?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Yup. It's adding both $50 boss packs to the $200 pledg level.
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Post by: nkelsch
 PsychoticStorm wrote:Whats the point of the completionist pledge? its just the cost of everything added up?
I think it also gives them interesting data...
49 - 45$ Pixelated
89 - 60$ New Player
403 - 150$ Explorer
1134 - 150$ Dark Consul
2629 - 200$ Legendary
489 - 300$ Completionist
That gives 488 people who haven't picked a reward, so I can assume they are at 1$
Let's remove the 1$, the two cheaper pledges and the completionist from the total to show pledges which have been captured and represented by the pledge as those people are unlikley to ADD ON to the reward.
That leaves 4166 people pledging a total of 890,768$. Which is an average of 213$ per person.
The total generated from the digital only or the base game is only about 7500$.
We are about 1000 less backers than TFK (but I am sure that might go up)
Interesting to see the "Big Box" and "upsold forced add-ons" model employed to what I would call success. Allowing people to pick and choose what they want ala carte does nothing but increase logistics and probably hurt sales as people who pledge 150 or 200 who may not want one of the bundled items would drop pledges, and the low number of people backing the lower pledges make me skeptical that the ala carte would have drawn more backers to cover those costs.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I think as we get closer to those final hours, the pledge total (and backer total) are going to keep going up.
Considering the tile caps out at 1075k, and it's currently sitting at 1046k, I think it's safe to say we should see a new batch of goals before the day is through.
Have Sodapop given any hints as to what waits for us at the tail end?
I keep wondering if we'll see some dedicated Dragonpeak creep minis, or possibly a new boss (albeit not a big huge one, but hey, you never know).
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Post by: DaveC
The Fire Flowers are the creeps for Dragonback peaks they are tokens in the 2.0 box Deke said they don't plan to do them as miniatures in the KS but will later on.
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Post by: Mymearan
Owlbearmoose? Well that's awesome.
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Post by: Maniac_nmt
Moonspire guardian is pretty snazzy.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
 DaveC wrote:The Fire Flowers are the creeps for Dragonback peaks they are tokens in the 2.0 box Deke said they don't plan to do them as miniatures in the KS but will later on.
Quite frankly, this was a really bad decision. The entire point of SDE 2.0 as a KS is to make SDE 2.0 "complete", for both new and returning backers. The idea that they couldn't sculpt a simple 2-part mono-pose model to be produced en masse 6x for each backer is kinda ludicrous. Especially as they're already producing 12 Creeps per backer. 
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Maybe if there's enough clamor they'll toss it in on the inevitable final stretch goal tile?
No flowers seems kind of dumb. Hell, make a generic evil flower sculpt and then produce them in different colors so you can have evil vegetation in every environment.
I wouldn't mind some SD scenery as it is...
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
One can only hope, although I have to assume the last SG will be another Boo Booty box.
... Or a giant book!
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Post by: JonWebb
JohnHwangDD wrote: DaveC wrote:The Fire Flowers are the creeps for Dragonback peaks they are tokens in the 2.0 box Deke said they don't plan to do them as miniatures in the KS but will later on.
Quite frankly, this was a really bad decision. The entire point of SDE 2.0 as a KS is to make SDE 2.0 "complete", for both new and returning backers. The idea that they couldn't sculpt a simple 2-part mono-pose model to be produced en masse 6x for each backer is kinda ludicrous. Especially as they're already producing 12 Creeps per backer.
Am I reading it right that there are no boo booty either? Can't see any mentioned.
Not a problem as I own mki and fk already, but it seems odd not to have them. Plus it's a perfect chance to produce minis for the variant types that exist in sde now.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I think that's correct, no Boo Booty in 2.0, either.
At least the KS is getting Pets with models. But yeah, it's nuts that there aren't extra dice or chests being unlocked.
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Post by: DaveC
There are no creeps, pets or Boo Booty miniatures in the 2.0 box they have been replaced with tokens to bring the retail cost down to $80 rather than the $100 price tag of FK, 1.0/1.5 they want 2.0 to have a cheaper entry point.
The Bitey Book is the KS exclusive box
The current stretch goal tile is the final tile with a secret goal at the end.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Dave, I understand that the tokens are for retail. However, for the KS, everybody is getting "free" models. Why not make them the models that players actually "need?"
The really stupid thing is that this is the perfect time to create actual Bouncing Booty and Grinder models. Why wouldn't SPM make the 2.0 KS version premium?
I mean, FFS, they did 12 pets. 6 Pets would have been fine. Then the other 6 sculpts are the missing creeps, chests, Boo Booty, Bouncing Booty and Grinding Booty - perfect!
It's chintzy and short-sighted not to give out the chests and creeps during the KS and expect people to have to buy them later.
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Post by: JonWebb
JohnHwangDD wrote:Dave, I understand that the tokens are for retail. However, for the KS, everybody is getting "free" models. Why not make them the models that players actually "need?"
The really stupid thing is that this is the perfect time to create actual Bouncing Booty and Grinder models. Why wouldn't SPM make the 2.0 KS version premium?
I mean, FFS, they did 12 pets. 6 Pets would have been fine. Then the other 6 sculpts are the missing creeps, chests, Boo Booty, Bouncing Booty and Grinding Booty - perfect!
It's chintzy and short-sighted not to give out the chests and creeps during the KS and expect people to have to buy them later.
Plus the lower entry point is in part caused by the one fewer tile, and two fewer spawns (or one linked spawn) as we lose one Rex and one kobold spawn vs mki...
I dunno, I'm not going to complain as even at the full $300 pledge I'm saving a lot vs uk retail, but it does seem odd to lose the chests at the very least.
As John mentions, they are throwing a metric tonne of free stuff at us, it seems odd to have missed core box critical stuff in exchange for some of them freebies.
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Post by: cincydooley
Because they want to sell this to people off the shelf. Not just kickstarter backers.
A lower price point is how they do it.
It makes an abundance of sense.
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Post by: nkelsch
I kinda agree... a creep which can be sold in 6 per boss, 12 per tile pack vs a pet which is 1 per person, you get a lot less traction per mold/design.
All I can figure is they have feedback that people are hot for pets to an extreme which we don't fully grasp.
But I will also say, that more creeps and alt booties I don't think would have added one single dime to this KS, and I suspect a pet pack has retail appeal while chests/booties would have to be packed with the core box at a loss.
I think the model is: You don't get a creep without a boss or tile set to buy them with. Spites clearly will be packaged with the nether rifts tiles. All other creeps come with a mega boss. I think we will see volcano tiles/fireflowers when roxor gets a 2.0 clean up.
So while there is a 'need' the real 'need' is what will make sense as an after-market purchase VS something which is forced bundled to a core box, so what they have done I think makes sense as every stretch can be a Tilepack, Bosspack, Single Hero pack or a themed box like 'alt genders/pets/npcs'
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Yeah, I get that they're shorting the retail version by a Warband worth of Monsters, along with the scenery.
That SPM isn't doing those core minis suggests they just didn't play (or playtest) the boxed set. They know from 1.0 and TFK that the Bootys need models, as they're monsters. Same with the Creeps. And yet, they're not making them part of the campaign. Same with the failure to include more dice. If it's a 4-player game, the reduced dice count in the 2.0 set just isn't enough.
I wonder if maybe SPM didn't expect newbies to jump in and get 2.0? That they knew they were only selling 90% to existing players & customers who had dice & chests & bootys, so they didn't care about attracting new players?
____
As for packaging, I clearly noted that the $80 MSRP retail version can be shortpacked with tokens. The KS will come with a Bitey Book full of stuff, and that stuff can just as easily have been Creeps, Chests & Bootys. Along with Dice, and unlocked Pets. Those Pets, Creeps, Chests, Bootys & Dice can then be retail bundled as a $ 25 MSRP SDE 2.0 "completer" set with the "missing" tile. Then Rex & Kobolds get bundled with a Hero (Sanctioned Witch?) to make a $40 MSRP Warband. And of course, the genderflip Heroes become another set. Easy! And good value for the KS backers!
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Post by: nkelsch
JohnHwangDD wrote:Yeah, I get that they're shorting the retail version by a Warband worth of Monsters, along with the scenery.
That SPM isn't doing those core minis suggests they just didn't play (or playtest) the boxed set. They know from 1.0 and TFK that the Bootys need models, as they're monsters. Same with the Creeps. And yet, they're not making them part of the campaign. Same with the failure to include more dice. If it's a 4-player game, the reduced dice count in the 2.0 set just isn't enough.
I wonder if maybe SPM didn't expect newbies to jump in and get 2.0? That they knew they were only selling 90% to existing players & customers who had dice & chests & bootys, so they didn't care about attracting new players?
They don't need models, just tokens. 'NEED' for core boardgames is a loaded term.
Leaves realm for maybe a 'treasure trove' tileset which comes with 3 chests, 3, boooty, 3 grinder, 3 bounce or something later which then has a retail model behind the stuff opposed to making an 80$ box more expensive.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Please re-read my follow-on.
At no point have I suggested adding to the $80 MSRP retail box. I get what SPM is doing there, and am OK with hit.
I have said that the KS should have included all of those items as part of the KS, which is a very different thing.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
They wanted to produce a lower price entry box to sell alongside FK,
that's why there is less content in the 2.0 box
and they're not doing stuff specifically for the KS as they've had loads of people moaning about companies who do stuff specifically for KS (exclusives, or 'only at cons') to the extent they've made a big thing about everything they'll ever do will be available on the website
so if they do it for the plastic flowers/pets etc they'd need to do a web site version with them too (at which point people would moan about having to get the box from them and not being able to get it from their favourite store, and stores would wonder if they should be stocking the fancy box rather than the cheap box)
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
OMG, none of you guys are comprehending what I said.
SDE 2.0 = 8+1 Heroes, 1 Boss, 1 mini-Boss, 3 Spawns + tokens == $80 MSRP
"Treasure chest" = 6 Pets, 6 creeps, 5 chests, 2+2+2 Booty, extra dice == $30 MSRP, but "FREE" in the KS.
It's not exclusive, it's just sold separately. Like batteries.
How hard is that to understand?
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Post by: MacMuckles
Don't worry John, I get what you're saying and I agree as well. I would much rather have the boo booty monsters instead of a second Arachne for example
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Thanks, tho it is kind of a missed opportunity.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
So has anyone else figured out what "Build your own Dungeon" is? Have they said, anywhere?
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Ah, if that's what you meant I guess the explanation is they didn't get concepts and then the sculpting done in time,
and after Relic Knights they have a real issue with coming to KS with stuff that isn't at least in the 3D sculpting phase
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
When the update first went out it was "Choose Your Own Adventure", but that got renamed...
I'm assuming it's still a sort of visual storybook.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
That doesn't sound like, random-dungeon-crawl-campaign mode. :-p
Boo.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I'm in agreement with you too John.
Would much prefer sculpts to tokens when everything else is getting blinged out, especially when we've got enough pets in the game now to field a warband in most skirmish games.
Doubling up the mini bosses isn't going to cost them a whole lot since the sculpt is already getting produced, but then again, they've got boo booty sculpts, and if they made the flowers the volume needed would probably offset the costs associated with them, and they could readily sell them at retail as well.
Who knows- maybe they'll do some as a release between now and when the actual game comes out? Something to keep interests high?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Much like the extra mini-bosses, the chest and basic booty sculpts are already cut, so running off a few more is basically "free". Same with the dice, which got brand new high-precision steel molds cut for TFK. Reusing those molds means it would have been cheaper to do the treasure trove completer models than 6 new pets. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, it can't be "Choose Your Own Adventure", because that's ( tm) (r) and (c) somebody besides SPM...
But if it were a random dungeon maker, that would be cool.
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Post by: nkelsch
I was hoping for a few more NPCs... but I guess with the town guard we got a good township.
We have a:
*A Blacksmith for weapons and armor
*A Bank Warden for Guarding the bank
*A Scholar/Cartographer for keeping books and Maps
*A Tailor for Cloth-based armor
*Ser Strong... For strength training?
And Repurposed Heroes
*A Witch for selling Magical Items
*An Alchemist for selling Potions
*A Cook for Running a Pub
*A Priest for running the church
*A Traveling Merchant Goblin
So we have a pretty well-packed NPC Backlog... (not that I don't want more!!!! I might end up making some farm animals)
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
The lack of creeps for the base game got me thinking... what if it came with a boss?
We have one final stretch.
All that talk about Super King Starfire.
What if he was the last goal, with corresponding creeps included?
Maybe that's what that final mystery chest holds. They said we'd need to work hard to get to that final one.
Just a thought.
I could be totally off base and it's a new metal coin or something silly.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
That would be amazing and shocking.
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Post by: ced1106
How many mini's at the Explorer and Dark Consul pledges? I'm counting just under 150. TIA!
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Post by: rayphoton
JohnHwangDD wrote:The core FK offer amounted to 100 models for $100, with the ability to add up to $200, $300 worth of stuff via a couple dozen a la carte options. Also, FK got a huge number of backers on the last couple days.
I believe that Legends is basically tracking FK, and will see a similar large bump at the end. I think Legends will easily break $800k, and finish around $1M. I don't think Legends will surpass FK, but I could be wrong.
I was with you on this John. I didn't thing this would do nearly as well as FK but it just sailed right past. I'm agog
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
So, I'm strapped for cash right now, but can I pledge a buck and add later in the pledge manager? CMON normally allows that, and they handled their last ones, but I wasnt around for Forgotten King, so dont know how soda pop runs things. Thanks!
Edit - NM, I saw they added that to the FAQ. What I get for not re-checking!
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Post by: BigOscar
So the final SG is a fairly pointless coin, oh well. Still very pleased with the KS, plenty of things to get excited about and generally a very impressive haul of free stuff. Plenty of super-cutesy stuff for my girlfriend as well which will keep her from questioning why I need yet more figures when I haven't even started painting the huge pile that have arrived recently.
It'll be interesting to see the Arcadia Quest KS on the 16th as I imagine I'll pick that up as well and just mash the miniatures together and use them for whatever game I want. Does anyone know what the quality is like on AQ models and how well they can be mixed with SDE ones?
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Post by: JonWebb
BigOscar wrote:So the final SG is a fairly pointless coin, oh well. Still very pleased with the KS, plenty of things to get excited about and generally a very impressive haul of free stuff. Plenty of super-cutesy stuff for my girlfriend as well which will keep her from questioning why I need yet more figures when I haven't even started painting the huge pile that have arrived recently.
You say that now...
I got hooked on coins from pp (several sodapop guys are ex pp too... Coincidence? ) I've got four bronze and four silver pp painting coins, all three pg coins produced so far and several cryx faction coins from over the years. I even commissioned my own resin and eventually metal coins for painting events I run in the uk. Coins are addictive.
The sde one from fk was pretty cool, it's surprisingly chunky.
It's quite an American military thing I think, the challenge coin, but it's quite a fun token ultimately.
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Post by: BigOscar
JonWebb wrote:BigOscar wrote:So the final SG is a fairly pointless coin, oh well. Still very pleased with the KS, plenty of things to get excited about and generally a very impressive haul of free stuff. Plenty of super-cutesy stuff for my girlfriend as well which will keep her from questioning why I need yet more figures when I haven't even started painting the huge pile that have arrived recently.
You say that now...
I got hooked on coins from pp (several sodapop guys are ex pp too... Coincidence? ) I've got four bronze and four silver pp painting coins, all three pg coins produced so far and several cryx faction coins from over the years. I even commissioned my own resin and eventually metal coins for painting events I run in the uk. Coins are addictive.
The sde one from fk was pretty cool, it's surprisingly chunky.
It's quite an American military thing I think, the challenge coin, but it's quite a fun token ultimately.
I guess everything is subjective, but I am primarily a painter though I suppose, so tokens were never likely to get me too excited. As a final thing for the KS I guess it makes sense, as you normally either have something truly spectacular or something to just sort of commemorate the whole thing.
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Post by: JonWebb
BigOscar wrote:JonWebb wrote:BigOscar wrote:So the final SG is a fairly pointless coin, oh well. Still very pleased with the KS, plenty of things to get excited about and generally a very impressive haul of free stuff. Plenty of super-cutesy stuff for my girlfriend as well which will keep her from questioning why I need yet more figures when I haven't even started painting the huge pile that have arrived recently.
You say that now...
I got hooked on coins from pp (several sodapop guys are ex pp too... Coincidence? ) I've got four bronze and four silver pp painting coins, all three pg coins produced so far and several cryx faction coins from over the years. I even commissioned my own resin and eventually metal coins for painting events I run in the uk. Coins are addictive.
The sde one from fk was pretty cool, it's surprisingly chunky.
It's quite an American military thing I think, the challenge coin, but it's quite a fun token ultimately.
I guess everything is subjective, but I am primarily a painter though I suppose, so tokens were never likely to get me too excited. As a final thing for the KS I guess it makes sense, as you normally either have something truly spectacular or something to just sort of commemorate the whole thing.
I'm primarily a painter too
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
The coin is nice, and matches my Princess Coin from TFK. Breaking $1.25M is a good job. ____  $1.29M final total About 20% higher than I had initially estimated, and about 10% higher than FK - so a very good result for SPM/ND. ____ I'm going to hold on Rail Raiders, as I'm more up for a Victorian Steam game than a Cowboy Cops & Robbers game, but maybe that just means I focus on Malifaux?
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
wrogn thread
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Post by: akai
I think Beatrix and Jack were products that were not part of a Kickstarter. So there is still a chance of them being released in the future without the need of Kickstarter funding.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Quite an impressive haul this time around. Even moreso than with Forgotten King I'd say.
I think it would be in Sodapop's best interest to keep a steady stream of stuff trickling into retail in the period between now and when the game ships.
Who knows, maybe we'll see those missing Fire Flowers before 2.0's arrival.
I even managed to talk my wife in to letting me put the base game on the credit card (as opposed to my hobby funds one) rather than just going in for a buck and adding it all in the PM.
I know I'll be doing my part to push for small bite size random adventures to be included in Legends.
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Post by: Schmapdi
I love my TFK coin - it makes a bang up paper-weight. Keeps all my receipts nice and tidy on my desk.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Yeah, the Princess Coin is considerably larger than I had expected. I had anticipated something the size and heft of an Eisenhower Dollar (old-school Vegas chip), but what we got was more bigger and awesomer.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Today is April 7, 2017, 4 days shy of 1 Year and 5 Months ago from when the KS closed on November 11, 2015. And what do we have?
Not much.
We got some really great feedback last week - and wanted to find a different way to visually share with you our progress week to week. I hope this helps, as always, we are keen to stay as transparent as able. Your love, time, and investment make this all possible! We are working on a visual progress bar for all our working elements that will greatly help you know at a glance what is going on!
Here is the texty version - pretty graphics to come next week:
* Super Dungeon Development - 33% (Wave 1 is ready for layout, Wave 2 assets will be ready when Wave 1 of Relic Knights is completed)
* Artwork, Sculpting, Layout - 33% (All character, treasure, item, and board art is complete, most of the sculpts are done, waiting to see production samples for the bosses of legends)
* Pre-press and Manufacturing - 33% (Most of Wave 1 sculpts are approved, next step after layout is to check Wave 1 eproofs)
* Fulfillment - 0% Wave 1 -
* SDE 2.0 - 80% (This Wave includes SDE 2.0 Classic, Frostbyte Ravagers, Crownguard, and the two heroes/mini bosses. This stuff just needs to be laid out after Way of the Fighter)
* Wave 2 - (x) - 40%
* Wave 3 - Legends - 0% (Ninja Deke is hard at work)
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explore-legends/posts/1847338
I am more than a little disappointed with this whole thing.
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Post by: DaveC
It's getting ridiculous now 4 months late and they only have 33% done! and Way of the Fighter has been bumped ahead of it. SPM are clearly lacking resources and the idea of starting one KS after another to keep funds coming in is looking more plausible. This has to have an effect on RK too and for that reason I've asked for a refund of my RK pledge I just don't want to tie up with more money with SPM now.
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Post by: Binabik15
Loooool. So glad I disliked the orcs and several other minis (sorry: unfinished renders not even close to production  ) like nu-dragon babies to not really want either pledge combo. Those owlbear and ghost creeps were SO close to pull me in, but it looks like I made the right choice. The rules being a mess was sadly expected after FK, but hardly anything close to production readiness? That's cheeky.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Welp, SPM finally gave an Update that catches everybody up on where things really are today. Highlights follow: We know that many of you are unhappy with us right now. We have heard you, and we are here to be as upfront and honest as we possibly can be.
Production of wave 1 will begin November 2017, and we estimate delivery (models on your doorstep) to happen mid April 2018.
The only two products for which we guarantee retail packaging will be the Super Dungeon: Explore core box and the Super Dungeon: Arcade core box.
We expect Legends to be done and fully laid out by the middle of next January. All other wave 2 content will be laid out within the next month. We are considering breaking Legends off into a third wave in order to get you the rest of wave 2 earlier, however that has not been decided.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explore-legends/posts/2002230 It's none to pretty, with production not starting until November (after the Starfinder KS closes), and not delivering until later Q2 2018, at the earliest - basically, a year-and-a-half late for Wave 1, and even later for Wave 2. I had already committed to asking for a refund earlier in the week, and this doesn't really inspire me to reverse that position.
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Post by: caylentor
I'm still torn on what to do. I love their miniatures and they're pretty hard/expensive to get in the UK, so if they did ever deliver then I'd be better off than if I tried to get them retail, but it's been such a farce the whole way through that I'm not convinced they'll ever release and I might just lose my investment. If I did get a refund I'd make a small profit thanks to the drop in the pound so that's edging me that way but it's tricky. I'm certainly never backing a SPM Kickstarter again.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
The SPM minis *are* lovely, that's for certain. The question is whether they will actually deliver.
In my mind, I'm leaning toward the notion that SPM is financially strapped because they spent the SDE:L money on a host of so-so projects that they had hoped would catapult them from a niche producer of a single profitable game (SDE) to a producer/publisher of a host of games a la CMoN.
That is, to me, it's no accident that the claimed production start date is Nov 1st, almost exactly 2 weeks after Starfinder closes and funds are released to SPM. I believe that SPM is using Starfinder to fund SDE:L Wave 1 production.
Had SPM been able to share that SDE:L was actually in production today, and would have a substantial portion of Wave 1 produced prior to Starfinder closing, I might reconsider despite my other misgivings.
In the mean time, I am going to be pushing my refund now, giving SPM/ND the opportunity to make good on their stated "6-8 day refund" window *before* the Starfinder campaign closes. If they can't do that, I'll start raising hell on Paizo's social media and the Starfinder campaign.
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Post by: 455_PWR
I had all the SDE minis, and sold them off a while back as I never got around to playing the game (damn... should have kept that kingdom death mini). I had thought of pledging for RRI or SDE:L... but decided to wait for retail based on some of ND/SPM's handling of past campaigns. It seems they did the same thing that happened in the avp/robotech campaigns. It seems they have had to run new KS to pay for and complete old campaigns... which leads companies into death spirals.
I did buy a copy of RRI off ebay tonight. Paid double what my pledge was, but I had time to save for it and didn't have to risk anything. Looks like I'll do the same for legends. I really want that horseman and dragons, even though I probably won't play SDE. I plan to use them for AQ.
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Post by: Binabik15
Woah, looks like I dodgwd a massive bullet there. I loved the ghosts, knights and owl bear...things, but not the cord model remakes and no pledge level was a good fit for me.
SPM, you claimed you were cool.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
JohnHwangDD wrote:The SPM minis *are* lovely, that's for certain. The question is whether they will actually deliver. In my mind, I'm leaning toward the notion that SPM is financially strapped because they spent the SDE:L money on a host of so-so projects that they had hoped would catapult them from a niche producer of a single profitable game ( SDE) to a producer/publisher of a host of games a la CMoN. That is, to me, it's no accident that the claimed production start date is Nov 1st, almost exactly 2 weeks after Starfinder closes and funds are released to SPM. I believe that SPM is using Starfinder to fund SDE:L Wave 1 production. Had SPM been able to share that SDE:L was actually in production today, and would have a substantial portion of Wave 1 produced prior to Starfinder closing, I might reconsider despite my other misgivings. In the mean time, I am going to be pushing my refund now, giving SPM/ND the opportunity to make good on their stated "6-8 day refund" window *before* the Starfinder campaign closes. If they can't do that, I'll start raising hell on Paizo's social media and the Starfinder campaign.
I'm pretty sure Paizo is smart enough not to be in a position where their name could be at risk from revenue for this ending up paying for something else, I'm sure they'll have oversight to make sure it doesn't happen (after all that's a huge amount of bad press, especially as SMP/ND is handling their other starfinder minis too and with pathfinder withering under the D&D 5th assault this HAS to be a success) I think it's much more likely that without enough senior staff to beg and plead for new production time slots because of the delays in all the KS (especially as they didn't really know when anything would be done to use them and paying several cancelation fees would have been too painful) the Chinese factories just didn't give them any I'm pretty sure this will get done (but less so when especially as I'm fairly sure that since it's resin this is going to be via Archon/Prodos who have their own too much to do, too little capacity issues)
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
If I were Paizo, I'd run the KS, and subcontract to SPM, but that's not what is happening.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Refund received! I'm out.
____
Actually, SPM even shorted me on the refund.
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Post by: ced1106
According to the Reaper KS forums, Paizo offered the license first to Reaper and Wizkids. So, I'm guessing, that these metal mini's are a marketing tactic to time with the release of the Starfinder game. The miniatures, of course, should also hit retail, if you don't want the entire set.
Starfinder pawns are and bases will be available. As a GM, I think pawns would be better than mini's, since I prefer to have a large assortment of figures (miniatures, pawns, tokens) to draw from when gaming. Even after the mini's are delivered, that won't be enough to run a Starfinder game, unless you mix the mini's with dice, pawns, etc.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
We're past mid-December, and SPM still doesn't have a single bit of actual production product to show. At this point, it's almost impossible for them to meet the April 15 delivery date that they had previously touted.
I wonder when SPM is going to inform the remaining backers of yet another delay, due to some issue with the Chinese factory. Namely, that Chinese factory wasn't about to delay some other customer when SPM wasn't ready to start production for window that they had previously reserved.
Heck, at this rate it's an open question whether SPM will be able to produce Wave 1 at all.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Erik Mona, CCO wrote:Hi, everybody! I wanted to check in here with a quick update on the Worldscape Humble Bundle, and where we're at with delivery.
For starters, the four comics: Pathfinder Worldscape: Vampirella, Dejah Thoris, Re-Animator, and Swords of Sorrow, are completely finished and arrived at Paizo's warehouse last week. I'd be very surprised if the Worldscape comics that Adenai mentioned holding in hand were THESE Worldscape comics, since to my knowledge the only place these things exist in physical form are in the Paizo warehouse.
We have published a six-issue Pathfinder Worldscape series (the one that kicked off the whole idea) AND a previous set of four Pathfinder Worldscape One-Shots associated with a previous Humble Bundle (Tarzan, Warlord of Mars, Red Sonja, and Pathfinder Goblins), so there are at least 10 issues of "Pathfinder Worldscape" comics that Adenai may have had in hand, so I strongly suspect there's a bit of confusion here, since there shouldn't be any other way anyone can get these yet. Please, Adenai, let me know if in fact you somehow found copies of the new set in the wild.
We're currently waiting on Ninja Division, who is in production on the figures now. Orders for these guys exceeded ND's ability to produce with their normal supplier, so they had to find someone else to get them done. I am told to expect an exact delivery date from them on Tuesday of next week, and I will share it here with you guys once they have shared it with me. Apologies for the delay. This came as much of a surprise to us as it did to you, and we're working with Ninja Division to clear these minis as rapidly as possible.
I expect to get these figures relatively soon, in which case the plan will continue to be to hold the comics until the figures arrive, and send them together as soon as possible. Again, I'll let you guys know what's up as soon as I have the exact date myself, which should come next week.
As for someone already having the minis--that's certainly possible. Ninja Division did a small run for sale at Gen Con and through their website in August of last year, so there are probably about 100 of each figure floating around in the wild from this original production run. I suspect that the Black Friday bundle mentioned above was them burning off the 10s of copies they had left of the four models, far short of the thousands needed to fulfill this Humble Bundle effort.
I should note that the Humble Bundle comes with a FIFTH bonus figure of the Starfinder Envoy Navasi, which has never been released anywhere.
Thanks again for your patience with these. As the author of three of the four comics, I'm super eager to get these out to people so you can read them and let me know what you think. I'm also excited about the quality of the Worldscape figures, and hope that you agree they are awesome when you get them.
I'll be better able to tell you when that is next week.
Thanks.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uz1g?Worldscape-humble-bundle-not-shipped
I particularly liked this bit: "We're currently waiting on Ninja Division, who is in production on the figures now. Orders for these guys exceeded ND's ability to produce with their normal supplier, so they had to find someone else to get them done."
That's the exact same BS that ND has been feeding SDE Legends backers for months. ND is obviously completely out of money, and will be gone soon enough.
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Post by: DaveC
And the lore updates continue with no word on production at all,
You know you are being trolled by a project creator when this is the quality of artwork they are prepared to publically release
But actually that’s quite representative of where SPM is right now.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Weirdest part of all their updates the other day was the mention that they've got Relic Knights supposedly in production.
Yet didn't SDE fund far before it?
I'll say this- hopefully all these "masterclass" figures they've been releasing are helping get funds back into the company and into getting this thing fulfilled.
I'd love to get my Relic Knights stuff, and I'd still probably consider picking up the SDE stuff when it eventually finds its way into retail, especially if they've made the rules a bit more accessible.
I don't really bother reading the updates any more...
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
If legends is indeed still in development it may well be simply because it's too much of a hassle to get the minis made and then have them hanging about for months (years?) until they've got a rule set to print
it seems typical to try and coordinate the finishing of plastic production with that of the printed material so they both arrive at wherever assembly's happening at about the same time
but even if that's true (and it might not be, it could be the Legends money ran out and now they need to fund that from sales, after all they 'should' be keeping funds from each KS separate) it's not a smart move from a PR point of view
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Holy crap, SPM really doesn't give a feth any more. 
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Post by: Sarouan
Convenient to only show the WIP arts from the update instead of the others :
#dishonesty
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
It's what SPM showed, and they deemed it "good enough" for the SDEL backers.
#truth
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Post by: Ctaylor
Is it final art or concept art?
If it's concept art, then it's fine. You often do very rough sketches to start and then develop it from there.
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Post by: Sarouan
 Ctaylor wrote:Is it final art or concept art?
If it's concept art, then it's fine. You often do very rough sketches to start and then develop it from there.
It's concept art for future developments of areas not covered by the Kickstarter. There's the usual ranting when these "background updates" appear and of course John's preemptive bashing of SPM. It's been clear for quite a few months we won't have anything about the production unless they are sure the dates will be fulfilled, given how much they were burnt because of previous delays.
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Post by: Sining
highlord tamburlaine wrote:Weirdest part of all their updates the other day was the mention that they've got Relic Knights supposedly in production.
Yet didn't SDE fund far before it?
I'll say this- hopefully all these "masterclass" figures they've been releasing are helping get funds back into the company and into getting this thing fulfilled.
I'd love to get my Relic Knights stuff, and I'd still probably consider picking up the SDE stuff when it eventually finds its way into retail, especially if they've made the rules a bit more accessible.
I don't really bother reading the updates any more...
Probably because RK is produced in Europe and not China.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Oooh... another fluffdate with more artwork!
That's like 5 minutes of scribble right there... They really don't give a feth.
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
Super Dungeon Explore has basically always failed to deliver on its promises. After first edition shipped with cool minis and a dreadful, grindy, boring game, and they promised to fix it with Forgotten King that delivered slightly less cool minis and an even more dreadful, grindy, boring game, I am very surprised any future versions got any backers.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Another empty update, but this time, the scribbler was sober!
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Post by: Col Hammer
I was waiting for you to post that picture and ignore the colour picture! Was not disapointed!
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Post by: Sarouan
 Col Hammer wrote:I was waiting for you to post that picture and ignore the colour picture! Was not disapointed!
Let's right this wrong, then
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Post by: Dice Monkey
So glad I get to see stuff unrelated to the kickstarter instead of anything concrete. How does SPM know I hate money, and my hobby is creatively disposing of it in a way that will in no way benefit myself or anyone else?
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Post by: Col Hammer
How are these updates unrelated to the kickstarter when this is the background text that will appear in SDE Legends books?
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Post by: Dice Monkey
Col Hammer wrote:How are these updates unrelated to the kickstarter when this is the background text that will appear in SDE Legends books?
Because it's chicken scratch drawings not related to the CONCRETE production of the kickstarter, how about a production sample or a timeline. We won't get that will we? I don't understand people trying to white knight this crap, you are as bad as the Palladium fanboys trying to defend the Robotech kickstarter.
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Post by: Col Hammer
 Dice Monkey wrote: Col Hammer wrote:How are these updates unrelated to the kickstarter when this is the background text that will appear in SDE Legends books?
Because it's chicken scratch drawings not related to the CONCRETE production of the kickstarter, how about a production sample or a timeline. We won't get that will we? I don't understand people trying to white knight this crap, you are as bad as the Palladium fanboys trying to defend the Robotech kickstarter.
White knight? LOL, you're funny!
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Post by: Sarouan
Col Hammer wrote: Dice Monkey wrote: Col Hammer wrote:How are these updates unrelated to the kickstarter when this is the background text that will appear in SDE Legends books?
Because it's chicken scratch drawings not related to the CONCRETE production of the kickstarter, how about a production sample or a timeline. We won't get that will we? I don't understand people trying to white knight this crap, you are as bad as the Palladium fanboys trying to defend the Robotech kickstarter.
White knight? LOL, you're funny!
Anything that goes against the narrative of Angry Backers for SDE is automatically "white knighting". Facts or arguments are irrelevant, it's all about the feels. Didn't you know ?
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Post by: Col Hammer
 Sarouan wrote: Col Hammer wrote: Dice Monkey wrote: Col Hammer wrote:How are these updates unrelated to the kickstarter when this is the background text that will appear in SDE Legends books?
Because it's chicken scratch drawings not related to the CONCRETE production of the kickstarter, how about a production sample or a timeline. We won't get that will we? I don't understand people trying to white knight this crap, you are as bad as the Palladium fanboys trying to defend the Robotech kickstarter.
White knight? LOL, you're funny!
Anything that goes against the narrative of Angry Backers for SDE is automatically "white knighting". Facts or arguments are irrelevant, it's all about the feels. Didn't you know ?
Looks like I didn't get the memo. Thanks for letting me know!
Now, what is the uniform requirement for a white knight? Do I need a shining armour? Is a horse mandatory? A high horse even?
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
The thread title alludes to alarming news I could not find anywhere, any info about it? links? solid information?
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Post by: Krinsath
"Failing to deliver" is mainly JHDD's take on the fact that they haven't seemingly started production yet (or have not announced such to my knowledge) for a project that was supposed to be delivered a year-and-a-half ago. It can be argued that they failed to deliver, and are continuing to do so, and thus "failing to deliver" is accurate as they continue to be in that state of non-delivery.
As far as "no refunds", an update was posted on March 23rd that reads in part:
Refund Policy Update
At this late stage in the Kickstarter we are officially ending the open refund period, effective immediately. While we understand the delay in fulfilment is frustrating, because we are in the production process we must be able to have firm numbers in order to plan logistics and production.
If you have previously requested a refund during the open refund period, it will remain in our queue and you will receive your refund. We apologize for any delay you may have encountered in receiving your refund. They are not forgotten, and will be processed as they move through our queue.
Reports are that long before that refunds had stopped being processed anyway ( BGG thread indicating possibly as early as September 2017), and a cursory glance at grumblings indicate that the ball hasn't moved too much on that front in the intervening months.
So, yeah...hard to argue that the thread title is inaccurate.
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Post by: Dice Monkey
Sarouan wrote:
Anything that goes against the narrative of Angry Backers for SDE is automatically "white knighting". Facts or arguments are irrelevant, it's all about the feels. Didn't you know ?
That's it, act incredulous mock people who lost money but give the benefit of the doubt to the company that took over a million dollars from people and all they do is publish scribbles and write rules to incorporate other products while pre-production copies sit around untouched for three years. I think they are much more deserving of the hate spewed at them then say GW who doesn't steal peoples money. If you want a discussion why not discuss then having an update that says MINIATURES! followed by a message that says, sorry for a game that funded more than a year after and is already on the shelves.
1
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
PsychoticStorm wrote:The thread title alludes to alarming news I could not find anywhere, any info about it? links? solid information?
Did you not read the Updates? SPM wrote:Mar 23 2018
Production
First and foremost, as most of you have surmised, wave one will not be arriving in April as we had previously estimated. As we have shown in multiple updates, development and layout for most rewards is complete. (Development will be covered in more detail below.)
Production has obviously faced some major hurdles and delays. To overcome them, we have had to move the production of the Super Dungeon: Explore core game to a new manufacturer. We are beginning this shift with just Explore in order to iron out the process. We will then work with both of our manufacturing partners towards the creation of all of the additional rewards.
We have done (and will continue) all due diligence to ensure that all Super Dungeon product remains consistent and of the high quality you expect across all products. It is every bit as import to us, as it is to you, that the final Super Dungeon product is an exceptional experience.
This shift naturally leads to the question of timelines. While we have done our best to provide you with accurate estimates of timelines, we have obviously not been successful in our estimates. We apologize for this. It has not been our intention in any way to mislead you. Estimates were made based upon the best information we had available at the time. Going forward, we will no longer be providing time estimates. We will only be providing concrete milestones once they have been achieved. While this does not provide the false “comfort” of a delivery estimate, it will make it so that when we update you with a production milestone it will have the weight of having been hit.
Refund Policy Update
At this late stage in the Kickstarter we are officially ending the open refund period, effective immediately. While we understand the delay in fulfilment is frustrating, because we are in the production process we must be able to have firm numbers in order to plan logistics and production.
If you have previously requested a refund during the open refund period, it will remain in our queue and you will receive your refund. We apologize for any delay you may have encountered in receiving your refund. They are not forgotten, and will be processed as they move through our queue.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explore-legends/posts/2144515 If you cut through the crap, SPM is doing nothing to produce anything, despite previously claiming they were ready to produce Wave 1. Their last "production" update was March 23 - 3 months ago, and nothing has happened since then. They are no closer to delivery today, than they were in March. There is zero progress on that front. Compare with Starfinder or WotF or anything else, and it's clear that SPM isn't doing a damn thing on the SDE:L KS. SPM also willfully and materially breach the contract by unilaterally declaring that they won't accept refunds, despite (obviously) not being within the 8 weeks window. Not that they have provided any refunds since last year (6 months ago), despite written replies that they would.
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Post by: foenixphate
Have to agree with John, requested a refund in Jan, nothing since then at all, in what world is 6 months appropriate to withhold a refund, note they can't be that hard up as they are firing out these resin figures for Super Dungeon, just not refunds.
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
I have to disagree on principle, he words it to be negative, giving it his spin of events.
Yes, it is going to be delayed for god knows when and they do have stopped refunds, but, they have not said or claimed they even intent to fail to deliver, they might, but until solid information by SPM or somebody credible surfaces the title is misleading.
"Delivery postponed without new date announced/ no refund policy" sounds more appropriate and equally pessimistic/ aggressive.
I am not saying not been at best disappointed with them, but failing to deliver means one thing, not telling us when they will deliver is another thing.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Given that you're not a native English speaker, and that you didn't create the thread, I'll title it whatever I deem appropriate.
SPM *is* failing to deliver, that's a fact. Any negative connotation is due to SPM's continuing failure to deliver a game that is more than a year overdue. If they don't want this sort of thing, there's an easy fix.
You wanna guess what it is?
I'll tell you:
Deliver the fething game!
See? That wasn't so hard at all.
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
Indeed I am not a native English speaker and indeed it is not my thread.
I expressed that I feel the new thread title is misleading, reading it I came here expecting to read a quotation from SPM that would say "we are not going to deliver sucks to be you" in a more corporate speech.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
That's basically what they said, except you are confusing "failing to deliver" with "refusing to deliver".
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Post by: Col Hammer
I thought you got your money back, so why still so mad at them? You have no dog in this race anymore.
I am a backer with a pledge in and waiting to see if it deliveres or not.
Meanwhile I have downloaded the Arcade rules and cards, so I can actually play the game while waiting.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I got most of what I was owed, but they still shorted me on the refund. I consider it a public service to keep the spotlight on them.
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Post by: Col Hammer
The refund is what you pledged minus the KS fees, right? Or did they short you more than that?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.
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Post by: Col Hammer
Ok, that is bad.
The KS page said "Refunds requested after 60 days are made through Paypal only, less Kickstarter and payment processing fees, which we cannot get back" and they should stick to that.
I, myself, will be out of the whole pledge money if they won't deliver, but I've decided to roll the dice and see what happens.
This is actually my first KS which might not deliver, so I guess I have picked them carefully enough so far.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I've had Palladium pull the plug on Wave 2 of Robotech, along with Journey almost dead for Wave 2. At least I got something for those two, with a glimmer of hope for more.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
This is the only game I've ever requested a refund on, having backed well over 300 projects to various capacities. I don't know what that says about me, my habits, or the game though.
Yet for whatever reason I've still got a Relic Knights pledge.
Gotta give Soda Pop credit for trying to bring in more revenue via all the resin releases lately. Hopefully the funds can get stuff produced that much sooner!
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Post by: Col Hammer
I'm purchasing some of those resin SDE figures, but not everything. Making the decision case by case.
Also buying the NAS upgrade cards to play the Ninjas in SDE.
I guess I need to do some purchases in Soda store just to retain my SDE White Knight membership badge.
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Post by: skullking
I'm guessing SDE must have spent too much on buying the rights to put out all those other companies games, that they've depleted their reserves from this KS. I have yet to get my Rail Raiders pledge yet either, despite messaging them several times through KS. I think combining the RPG with the regular game was a poor choice also, as I don't think everyone really wanted an RPG, and it could have easily just been it's own smaller KS. I really hope they are able to finish this one, as I do love the game, and they funded some awesome stuff. 
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Post by: nkelsch
JohnHwangDD wrote:I got most of what I was owed, but they still shorted me on the refund. I consider it a public service to keep the spotlight on them.
And they need the spotlight kept on them.
They SOLD RRI retail at Gencon last year. And they shorted their international distributors for their kickstarter and over a year later, a large number of international backers have received nothing and SPM is marking that KS complete.
The long and the short of it is, to fulfill the KS, they need to re-print the non-retail models (the stretches and such) and they can't afford to because they don't want to do a large reprint for plastic models which will never sell at retail. And with Plastic being halted for close to 2 years, it does seem like RRI backers who have not received anything will never get anything.
NAS failing and being killed off as a product shows how poorly their games sell post- KS, and exposes Deke's failure as a valid rules developer as every system he has touched fails on a fundamental level. (usually basic probability issues and lack of understanding how dice work) But they are publicly playtesting NAS conversion cards with zero evidence of playtesting legends.
The Better Business Bureau complaints are piling up now as well. They have refused to answer Inquiries.
https://www.bbb.org/northwest/business-reviews/publishing-consultant/ninja-division-publishing-llc-in-garden-city-id-1000055248/reviews-and-complaints
Oh, and they failed to deliver Pazio's humble bundle models on time, and are way behind on the Starfinder Kickstarter. And when Pazio basically forced them to 'ship as they are finished at a loss for ND', the models being shipped were not cured, sticky and unusable messes. And instead of acknowledging it, they are grilling backers with need for extensive evidence before they will believe any of the models the backers have received are faulty. (How do you photograph sticky resin? How do you photograph soft resin? Your backers are not making stuff up to defraud you ND)
And that is on top of the lack of SDE 2.0 wave 1, and zero evidence of SDE legends being written more than the fluff belched into updates every 2 weeks. Oh, and the lack of refunds, which are totally justified per the refund policy which was part of the KS. Breaching your contract with backers and changing the terms on a whim isn't a good position to be in.
So I would say the thread title is pretty accurate.
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Post by: Col Hammer
 skullking wrote:I'm guessing SDE must have spent too much on buying the rights to put out all those other companies games, that they've depleted their reserves from this KS. I have yet to get my Rail Raiders pledge yet either, despite messaging them several times through KS. I think combining the RPG with the regular game was a poor choice also, as I don't think everyone really wanted an RPG, and it could have easily just been it's own smaller KS. I really hope they are able to finish this one, as I do love the game, and they funded some awesome stuff.
I backed the KS for the SDE 2.0 stuff. I wasn't really interested in the RPG, but there were not pledge level where the RPG was not included (it was called SDE: Legends, so it kind of made sense that they forced the RPG stuff on everyone).
I just want to play SDE 2.0. That's all.
Right now I have downloaded the final rules and cards, so I can play it. But I hope the downloads will not end up everything I will get from the KS.
I would be happy enough if they just managed to print all the SDE stuff (New core box, Arcade box, Pet parade, boss boxes and the 2 new warbands) and leave just the RPG stuff hanging...
But that is the White knight in me speaking.
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Post by: rayphoton
skullking wrote:I have yet to get my Rail Raiders pledge yet either, despite messaging them several times through KS.
Holy  !!. you never got your rail raider pledge??!! Jeez, i got mine months ago. I didn't know that they had failed to fulfill it. That's really up. I hope you get yours all worked out.
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Post by: Theophony
JohnHwangDD wrote:They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.
Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.
Not that I am defending them(they don’t deserve it), but if you are going on a crusade you better make sure your being clear on what your motives are.
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Post by: Nurglitch
This seems like a lesson in over-promising and under-performing.
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Post by: Sarouan
It was changed recently while the situation didn't. So it's clearly misleading. It was started by John, and the last editing was indeed made two days ago. Nothing is justifying this but John's own agenda/crusade against SPM.
You want to right your wrongs ? Then better not use shady means to get to your ends.
Also remember ; we only have John's words on this matter. He says SPM still owns him money from partial refund ? Why should we trust him just by his words with no proof as he showed only clear partiality towards himself and charge SPM since a long time, no matter what ?
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Post by: Nurglitch
I can't imagine John going to this much effort merely out of spite.
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Post by: Sarouan
 Nurglitch wrote:I can't imagine John going to this much effort merely out of spite.
I think we got way past the "spite" step in his case. So far, it really feels more like "hate" to me.
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Post by: Skaorn
 Theophony wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.
Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.
Not that I am defending them(they don’t deserve it), but if you are going on a crusade you better make sure your being clear on what your motives are.
Why does the amount matter? If provided and you deem its an appropriate amount, will you then ask for proof of purchase and proof of refund? There are people above claiming that they still haven't gotten their stuff from older KS. You have a claim stating that people are getting defective products because they were rushed and not properly treated. You need more than one person to start a crusade and it seems like there is a lot for people to lash out on. I've only been following this out of interest I had from RRT. I didn't back it because I've had years of experience with Palladium but I love Robotech so I still watched. I'm surprised that what I found made me doubt that Palladium was 100% at fault for the failure and Kevin S. was trying to find a scapegoat per usual. I'm probably still at seeing them at 90% fault but the fact that ND and all's practices can make me doubt a heavily biased opinion is something.
If that doesn't work for you let me try another approach. I had around 100$ left to pay on my car and always paid on time. I got put in the hospital for several months and the car was very nearly repossessed. 100$ is small change on a car loan, basically a bit of interest on the total value of the car. Should Toyota just let it go since they got the vast majority of what they were owed?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Theophony wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.
Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.
A dollar. Is that transparent enough for you? I came clean when asked. Unlike SPM, who refuse to answer, answer with half-truths, or simply fabricate outright lies. ____ Nurglitch wrote:I can't imagine John going to this much effort merely out of spite.
The most relevant phrase would be "rigthetous indignation"
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Post by: nkelsch
From what I can tell, when they were doing refunds early they were telling people 10% to deter people. Those refunds were flowing.
Someone made a fit about it because I think KS fees are 8% not 10%, and they had to ban him from the KS (which was a 100% refund) and after that all refunds were then missing 8%. There were then those who wanted their 2% back.
And now for over 6 months, people have been getting 0% refunded.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Sarouan wrote: It was changed recently while the situation didn't. So it's clearly misleading. It was started by John, and the last editing was indeed made two days ago. Nothing is justifying this but John's own agenda/crusade against SPM. You want to right your wrongs ? Then better not use shady means to get to your ends. Also remember ; we only have John's words on this matter. He says SPM still owns him money from partial refund ? Why should we trust him just by his words with no proof as he showed only clear partiality towards himself and charge SPM since a long time, no matter what ?
Wow, major fething conspiracy bullgak there. Are you sockpuppeting for SPM now? (See? I can do it, too!) The thread title has been that way since March, when SPM announced that they were unilaterally refusing to honor requests, as a material breach of the contract that they offered during the KS. You can track it on Wayback or some other mechanism. If you count May as "recent", I guess you're on SPM time, where being over a year late is no big deal, where saying production is "ready" can take nearly a year to actually start production. It's absolutely accurate as far as what SPM is (not) doing and refusing to do. If you want to claim it's misleading, you'd damn well better have some fething facts to support that. To date, SPM hasn't shown a single fething thing to suggest they are any closer to actual production than they were when the KS closed. And no, "production" does not count pre-production like proofs or whites. Production is the actual production of goods for customers (backers). SPM has been failing to deliver for a very long time, and the title change was long overdue. It actually should have been posted sometime last year, but I was remiss in that regard. The "no refunds" is an absolute fact, as I quoted multiple times, and is still on KS for your review. The last edit was indeed a couple days ago, copypasting my response on the May Update for clarity's sake. The first post now quotes SPM in the last substantive Update on the situation (no delivery date, no refunds). As for justification, I don't need any. If you want to call out an untruth, show me where that's the case. There's nothing shady on my part. I'm simply showing the shady gak that SPM is doing, and making it clear that they are liars and cheats. Simple as that. If they should ever rectify that by delivering what they promised, I'll be kind enough to note it. Realistically, that won't ever happen, though. It's obvious that SPM doesn't have the money to produce any SDE product for the KS. You don't get to call me "shady" when it's SPM that's actually being shady AF. As for whose words, well, you are free to contact the other backers on KS and see how their refunds are going since November of last year. Go ahead, ask them. They'll tell you that they have been waiting 6 months for SPM to provide the refund that SPM confirmed they would provide. But I don't owe anything to you, and I won't provide it. Now go feth off until you can prove that you're not a sock puppet for SPM.
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Post by: Col Hammer
JohnHwangDD wrote: Theophony wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.
Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.
A dollar.
Is that transparent enough for you? I came clean when asked. Unlike SPM, who refuse to answer, answer with half-truths, or simply fabricate outright lies.
You're doing all this because of a dollar? Huh?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Col Hammer wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote: Theophony wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.
Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.
A dollar. Is that transparent enough for you? I came clean when asked. Unlike SPM, who refuse to answer, answer with half-truths, or simply fabricate outright lies.
You're doing all this because of a dollar? Huh?
Yup.
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Post by: Monkeysloth
JohnHwangDD wrote: Col Hammer wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote: Theophony wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.
Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.
A dollar.
Is that transparent enough for you? I came clean when asked. Unlike SPM, who refuse to answer, answer with half-truths, or simply fabricate outright lies.
You're doing all this because of a dollar? Huh?
Yup.
I don't know if you're truly mad or have been building up to this joke for months but either way well done.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
:Eddie Murphy laugh:
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Post by: Sarouan
"Piling up now" ? Seriously ? 8 complaints to this day, with 7 filled on 18/06/2018 with "no details" and the other on 29/05/2018 with the only one showing some motive ? Now that's another misleading statement.
Oh, and they failed to deliver Pazio's humble bundle models on time, and are way behind on the Starfinder Kickstarter. And when Pazio basically forced them to 'ship as they are finished at a loss for ND', the models being shipped were not cured, sticky and unusable messes.
Sure. That's not my definition on "unusable mess" by looking at this video (that is not coming from a satisfied backer, BTW) https://www.twitch.tv/videos/268808237
And instead of acknowledging it, they are grilling backers with need for extensive evidence before they will believe any of the models the backers have received are faulty. (How do you photograph sticky resin? How do you photograph soft resin? Your backers are not making stuff up to defraud you ND)
Here's the comment that is "grilling backer with need of extensive evidence" :
Ninja Division Publishing Créateur il y a 6 jours
Starfinders!
If you have received damaged/defective miniatures, please contact us at: starfinder@ninjadivision.com
Please provide photographs of the products in question for documentation. Our customer service team will be able to guide you towards a resolution from there, whatever the issue may be. This email address may also be used for any questions regarding the campaign in general.
Thank you,
Ninja Scott
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-miniatures/comments
He's basically just asking to show pictures for documentation. Not really that surprising on that matter to show proof of what you're claiming in case of a formal complaint.
Funny how's the narrative can be quite different with another point of view, really.
And that is on top of the lack of SDE 2.0 wave 1, and zero evidence of SDE legends being written more than the fluff belched into updates every 2 weeks. Oh, and the lack of refunds, which are totally justified per the refund policy which was part of the KS. Breaching your contract with backers and changing the terms on a whim isn't a good position to be in.
Breaching the contract, really. Show me the contract you signed with them. Spoiler : there isn't.
I would like to remind you the terms and conditions on the first page of the campaign that was there day one :
TERMS AND CONDITIONS
By pledging on this Kickstarter you acknowledge the following:
1. Items shown during the Kickstarter are prototypes and the final product, including models, look, materials, and other content may vary from those shown while the Kickstarter is active.
2. You must confirm your pledge and pay for shipping charges within eight weeks of our email notification asking you to confirm your pledge. Timely shipment cannot be guaranteed for backers who fail to confirm their pledge and/or fail to pay shipping.
3. It is Soda Pop Miniature's responsibility to ship your rewards to you. It is your responsibility to provide Soda Pop Miniatures with a correct address in a timely manner, and to ensure that the provided address is deliverable by normal methods and standard regional postal services. You accept that the shipping date is only an estimate, and that due to the logistics of worldwide shipping, backers in different countries may receive their rewards sooner than others, or that the product may make it into distribution in your own country or into special promotions before your reward arrives. Further, you agree that you are responsible for import duties or any other duties, taxes, or fees that may be payable to complete delivery of your items.
4. You have read and agree to the shipping details provided in the Shipping Information section.
If you do not accept these terms, please do not pledge and wait for retail release. Thank you for your understanding.
For the fluff updates, they said why it was so ; https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explore-legends/posts/2144515
Also, in this link, you have the full original version, not the one cut by John on the first post of this topic modified two days ago.
So I would say the thread title is pretty accurate.
If you follow the Angry Backer's Narrative, yes, it is.
Now I agree that SPM DID things wrong and I dislike delays as well. But I'm tired of the hyperboles from the Angry Backers' side. Not only it brings nothing new at all, it's just spam of the same robot-like "arguments", it is also clear than with time, some people are clearly trying to "change" facts with a few details here and there so that it looks more "outrageous".
And I don't think it's right as well.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Sarouan wrote:Breaching the contract, really. Show me the contract you signed with them. Spoiler : there isn't.
You would be 100% wrong in any court of American Law.
By law, KS is like eBay, where the contract is executed virtually:
1. SPM makes an offer (in this case, goods for money)
2. Backer accepts the offer by pledging money for those goods
3. KS executes the contract when they collect the money.
It is the exact same binding contract that you have on eBay:
1. Seller makes an offer
2. Buyer accepts the offer
3. eBay executes the contract when they collect the money.
eCommerce has had this standing in law for decades, and the precedent is very strong.
The specifics of the SPM-Backer contract state very clearly:
REFUND POLICY
Refund requests made within 60 days of the campaign’s end are made through Stripe, directly to your credit card, fees included.
Refunds requested after 60 days are made through Paypal only, less Kickstarter and payment processing fees, which we cannot get back.
No refunds are possible if requested eight weeks before the Kickstarter's actual shipping date, since at that point we have already begun packaging pledges.
That refund policy is part and parcel of SPM's offer, and part of the digital contract between Creator and Backer executed when Kickstarter collected the pledge monies. To claim otherwise is a gross misunderstanding of how the law works.
If you disagree, I will make a Kickstarter for you that will promise to double whatever you pledge, with the same policy, assuming you can exceed the minimum funding level of $100,000 USD. I will, of course, hold you to your current interpretation of how this works, as waiver of any other rights or remedies you might have under law.
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Post by: Sarouan
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Wow, major fething conspiracy bullgak there. Are you sockpuppeting for SPM now? (See? I can do it, too!)
Typical answer from your side, yes. Anyone going against your narrative is automatically a SPM sock puppet. Thanks for making my point.
The thread title has been that way since March, when SPM announced that they were unilaterally refusing to honor requests, as a material breach of the contract that they offered during the KS. You can track it on Wayback or some other mechanism. If you count May as "recent", I guess you're on SPM time, where being over a year late is no big deal, where saying production is "ready" can take nearly a year to actually start production.
It's absolutely accurate as far as what SPM is (not) doing and refusing to do. If you want to claim it's misleading, you'd damn well better have some fething facts to support that.
That's misleading in the way you're making assumptions from your personnal feelings and trying to make it as "facts". Saying SPM is "refusing to do" while you're not them and making that affirmation close to the production talking makes it like that the fact here is SPM is refusing to do production. Which we don't know, because they never said stuff like this.
To date, SPM hasn't shown a single fething thing to suggest they are any closer to actual production than they were when the KS closed. And no, "production" does not count pre-production like proofs or whites. Production is the actual production of goods for customers (backers). SPM has been failing to deliver for a very long time, and the title change was long overdue. It actually should have been posted sometime last year, but I was remiss in that regard. The "no refunds" is an absolute fact, as I quoted multiple times, and is still on KS for your review.
They also showed no intention of not fulfilling this kickstarter. They stated clearly that they have delays, are unable to state new dates of fullfilment right now (mainly because they failed to achieve them in the past and were called on that multiple times). That situation didn't change, we know all of that but somewhat you still feel the need to go back on this. You know the answer will be the same. That you're not fine with it, I understand. What I'm tired with is that constant hyperbole you keep having (well, you and your fellow "righteous crusaders" as I guess you see yourselves), that bring absolutely nothing new, keep showing only the negative part and deliberately leaving the parts that don't fit your narrative aside because you know perfectly that's not going in your favor.
The last edit was indeed a couple days ago, copypasting my response on the May Update for clarity's sake. The first post now quotes SPM in the last substantive Update on the situation (no delivery date, no refunds).
Which is misleading with the title : "failing to deliver and no refunds". Implying that it will never deliver and there are no refunds at all, including the ones filled before the new statement saying they're closing the open refund period (all words are important, that means not ALL kinds of refund aren't possible, it just means the open ones won't be accepted anymore. You have other means to still make your pleas heard, just they will not be as easy as the open one).
Hyperbole, like I said.
As for justification, I don't need any. If you want to call out an untruth, show me where that's the case.
More like a subtle change/cut version of some things, on intent, and I already showed just above. For the "fluff updates", I could also talk on your constant complaint about the "unfinished pictures", while systematically leaving aside the ones that are, like I showed again in the previous posts.
And yes, I'm aware plenty of backers are unhappy. I'm one too. But the trouble is that some of them use means to make them heard that I don't agree with. Seriously, what's the point of acting like you do ? Do you think you need that ? Do you think it's enjoyable for the others forcing to read that same arguments over and over, while we all know that the answer will still be same from that update of March and answers from Ninja Scott ? Of course it's not, but indeed, that's not the point ; what is the point is to make sure SPM looks despicable no matter what.
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Post by: TwilightSparkles
Only on dakka could you find people defending creators that blatantly don't give a toss about backers. Excluding the ZkS comments pages ofc.
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Post by: ced1106
> Please provide photographs of the products in question for documentation. Our customer service team will be able to guide you towards a resolution from there,
fwiw, I've had to do this with product sent by the retailer, as well as to an OLGS, so that they could send this information to their suppliers for Q&A purposes.
Years ago, Ninja Division was a creator I would back. But, since roughly Palladium and Relic Knights, I've yellow-flagged any project they were involved with. ND's customer service towards backers doesn't seem to exist. John also criticized their game development, which also helped my decision to not back their projects. I didn't have a good first impression of their Infinite Rail Riders.
Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/87hz43/ninja_division_super_dungeon_explore_pulling_out/
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Post by: Sarouan
If you're so sure of your rights, then you should go the American courts to sue them. Right ?
But since you got your refund, you don't really have the need. And feeling righteous doesn't mean going that far as losing potentially more money in court for the sake of "Justice", I bet.
The truth is, as long as there is a chance to get what we pledged for, even just a part, it's not worth it. The risks are as great not to gain anything in the end while costing you more. I think the majority of backers are waiting because there is no point to rant in the void and will truly take actions once SPM actually and definitely announces the Kickstarter is a failure (if it really happens, of course).
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Post by: Dice Monkey
 TwilightSparkles wrote:Only on dakka could you find people defending creators that blatantly don't give a toss about backers. Excluding the ZkS comments pages ofc.
.
Ah for the old days when we were the incredulous board who all hated equally and had zero tolerance for this kind of bull.
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Post by: growls
Sarouan wrote:
If you're so sure of your rights, then you should go the American courts to sue them. Right ?
But since you got your refund, you don't really have the need. And feeling righteous doesn't mean going that far as losing potentially more money in court for the sake of "Justice", I bet.
The truth is, as long as there is a chance to get what we pledged for, even just a part, it's not worth it. The risks are as great not to gain anything in the end while costing you more. I think the majority of backers are waiting because there is no point to rant in the void and will truly take actions once SPM actually and definitely announces the Kickstarter is a failure (if it really happens, of course).
I can't speak for the prior poster but I can say I received a refund minus the 8% for a completionist pledge in April , I believe this was because I had already sent them a letter of intent of legal action and a deadline date and was willingto seeit through even though I am not Amercian .
IANAL but refundingyou would mean you no longer had grounds or standing for legal redress.
Or maybe they just deemed me too toxic. Either way they banned me from both the KS page and their own forums
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Sarouan wrote:
If you're so sure of your rights, then you should go the American courts to sue them. Right ?
I am, aside from the fact that the cost of enforcing my rights would have exceeded the amount in question by several orders of magnitude. I don't spend thousands to get hundreds.
But then again, you didn't bother to do the slightest modicum of research on the case law which applies, and the consumer law is crystal clear. So maybe you should not spout ignorant gak.
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Post by: Fango
I haven't tried for a refund, am an all-in backer who all-in backed (and received rewards for) Forgotten King, and am really hoping they eventually make good on this one. I'm not going to defend their behavior, but I'm also not writing this off...I genuinely hope they turn this around, because they have a good IP here, with some quality art and renders...and a history of producing quality minis.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Sarouan wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:
Wow, major fething conspiracy bullgak there. Are you sockpuppeting for SPM now? (See? I can do it, too!)
Typical answer from your side, yes. Anyone going against your narrative is automatically a SPM sock puppet. Thanks for making my point.
The thread title has been that way since March, when SPM announced that they were unilaterally refusing to honor requests, as a material breach of the contract that they offered during the KS. You can track it on Wayback or some other mechanism. If you count May as "recent", I guess you're on SPM time, where being over a year late is no big deal, where saying production is "ready" can take nearly a year to actually start production.
It's absolutely accurate as far as what SPM is (not) doing and refusing to do. If you want to claim it's misleading, you'd damn well better have some fething facts to support that.
That's misleading in the way you're making assumptions from your personnal feelings and trying to make it as "facts". Saying SPM is "refusing to do" while you're not them and making that affirmation close to the production talking makes it like that the fact here is SPM is refusing to do production. Which we don't know, because they never said stuff like this.
To date, SPM hasn't shown a single fething thing to suggest they are any closer to actual production than they were when the KS closed. And no, "production" does not count pre-production like proofs or whites. Production is the actual production of goods for customers (backers). SPM has been failing to deliver for a very long time, and the title change was long overdue. It actually should have been posted sometime last year, but I was remiss in that regard. The "no refunds" is an absolute fact, as I quoted multiple times, and is still on KS for your review.
They also showed no intention of not fulfilling this kickstarter. They stated clearly that they have delays, are unable to state new dates of fullfilment right now (mainly because they failed to achieve them in the past and were called on that multiple times). That situation didn't change, we know all of that but somewhat you still feel the need to go back on this. You know the answer will be the same. That you're not fine with it, I understand. What I'm tired with is that constant hyperbole you keep having (well, you and your fellow "righteous crusaders" as I guess you see yourselves), that bring absolutely nothing new, keep showing only the negative part and deliberately leaving the parts that don't fit your narrative aside because you know perfectly that's not going in your favor.
The last edit was indeed a couple days ago, copypasting my response on the May Update for clarity's sake. The first post now quotes SPM in the last substantive Update on the situation (no delivery date, no refunds).
Which is misleading with the title : "failing to deliver and no refunds". Implying that it will never deliver and there are no refunds at all, including the ones filled before the new statement saying they're closing the open refund period (all words are important, that means not ALL kinds of refund aren't possible, it just means the open ones won't be accepted anymore. You have other means to still make your pleas heard, just they will not be as easy as the open one).
Hyperbole, like I said.
As for justification, I don't need any. If you want to call out an untruth, show me where that's the case.
More like a subtle change/cut version of some things, on intent, and I already showed just above. For the "fluff updates", I could also talk on your constant complaint about the "unfinished pictures", while systematically leaving aside the ones that are, like I showed again in the previous posts.
And yes, I'm aware plenty of backers are unhappy. I'm one too. But the trouble is that some of them use means to make them heard that I don't agree with. Seriously, what's the point of acting like you do ? Do you think you need that ? Do you think it's enjoyable for the others forcing to read that same arguments over and over, while we all know that the answer will still be same from that update of March and answers from Ninja Scott ? Of course it's not, but indeed, that's not the point ; what is the point is to make sure SPM looks despicable no matter what.
Let's be clear that you created the issue by ascribing dishonesty to my posts, and that was completely uncalled for. Of course I am going to push back on that. Right now, you are acting the sock puppet. As for calling it a "narrative", that again is counterfactual, willfully ignoring the actual facts of the situation.
With respect to "refusing", I have been consistent in using that to describe the refund situation. SPM has been refusing to accept refunds that are legally owed, SPM has been refusing to pay refunds that they agreed to pay. Those are facts, and they are legion.
SPM has also been failing to deliver, and that is also a fact. There is NO delivery plan, regardless of what they claim - their claims are hollow, as they have never delivered on any of them. They have made a lot of excuses, but those excuses are not adequate for the size of the delay.
SPM is failing to deliver and refusing to refund. Those are the actual facts on the ground today. They tell a lot of lies, though. If you continue to be dumb enough to believe what they say, despite months, years of failing to follow through on those promises, that's on you. But it doesn't change the fact that they are lying about delivery and lying about refunds.
And let's be clear that the contract that SPM offered obliges them to accept refunds per the refund policy. They are nowhere near being within 8 weeks of the actual shipping date, so SPM cannot legally deny refunds without breaching the contract that they voluntarily offered. That's not hyperbole. That's basic contract law.
If you cannot comment with something substantive, you should stop attempting to obfuscate the facts here,
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Post by: Azazelx
Theophony wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.
Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.
Not that I am defending them(they don’t deserve it), but if you are going on a crusade you better make sure your being clear on what your motives are.
I don't think it's really especially pertinent. To use a Godwin example - Just because it wasn't his family that was murdered by the SS, doesn't mean he can't hate Nazis. John's under no obligation to share that information, as he's not the one who has failed to deliver anything but empty promises to 6,611 people while still pumping out other products and running subsequent campaigns for more.
I'm out every fething cent as I went all-in. I'm also fething exhausted by ND and their empty words of bs, content-free updates, broken promises and outright lies - so if John wants to keep the thread updated on behalf of people like myself who have pretty much gotten fethed over by ND, then I'm all for it.
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Post by: Col Hammer
JohnHwangDD wrote: Col Hammer wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote: Theophony wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.
Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.
A dollar.
Is that transparent enough for you? I came clean when asked. Unlike SPM, who refuse to answer, answer with half-truths, or simply fabricate outright lies.
You're doing all this because of a dollar? Huh?
Yup.
So this is a troll thread after all?
No wonder the accusations of sock puppets and white knights fly so thick. Standard trolling tactics.
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Post by: nkelsch
 Azazelx wrote:
I'm out every fething cent as I went all-in. I'm also fething exhausted by ND and their empty words of bs, content-free updates, broken promises and outright lies - so if John wants to keep the thread updated on behalf of people like myself who have pretty much gotten fethed over by ND, then I'm all for it.
Same boat. Agree. Companies who abuse and prey on members of the miniature/Wargaming/Boardgame community deserve every bit of scrutiny and documentation the internet can afford. I personally would rather see a KS sink because they acted ethically and in good faith, than succeed and be rewarded for acting unethically and committing fraud. Ends does not justify the means.
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Post by: Col Hammer
nkelsch wrote: Azazelx wrote:
I'm out every fething cent as I went all-in. I'm also fething exhausted by ND and their empty words of bs, content-free updates, broken promises and outright lies - so if John wants to keep the thread updated on behalf of people like myself who have pretty much gotten fethed over by ND, then I'm all for it.
Same boat. Agree. Companies who abuse and prey on members of the miniature/Wargaming/Boardgame community deserve every bit of scrutiny and documentation the internet can afford. I personally would rather see a KS sink because they acted ethically and in good faith, than succeed and be rewarded for acting unethically and committing fraud. Ends does not justify the means.
If the KS succeeds, it means they deliver the goods to backers... How are they then committing fraud?
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Post by: akai
skullking wrote:I'm guessing SDE must have spent too much on buying the rights to put out all those other companies games, that they've depleted their reserves from this KS. I have yet to get my Rail Raiders pledge yet either, despite messaging them several times through KS. I think combining the RPG with the regular game was a poor choice also, as I don't think everyone really wanted an RPG, and it could have easily just been it's own smaller KS. I really hope they are able to finish this one, as I do love the game, and they funded some awesome stuff.
Try, messaging them through email with order number from the SPM store account: info@sodapopminiatures.com
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Post by: HaleysRedComet
Col Hammer wrote:nkelsch wrote: Azazelx wrote:
I'm out every fething cent as I went all-in. I'm also fething exhausted by ND and their empty words of bs, content-free updates, broken promises and outright lies - so if John wants to keep the thread updated on behalf of people like myself who have pretty much gotten fethed over by ND, then I'm all for it.
Same boat. Agree. Companies who abuse and prey on members of the miniature/Wargaming/Boardgame community deserve every bit of scrutiny and documentation the internet can afford. I personally would rather see a KS sink because they acted ethically and in good faith, than succeed and be rewarded for acting unethically and committing fraud. Ends does not justify the means.
If the KS succeeds, it means they deliver the goods to backers... How are they then committing fraud?
Just so I am on the same page - at what point would you say the KS has failed to deliver, what amount of time passed before you would say they have failed?
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Post by: nkelsch
Col Hammer wrote:nkelsch wrote: Azazelx wrote:
I'm out every fething cent as I went all-in. I'm also fething exhausted by ND and their empty words of bs, content-free updates, broken promises and outright lies - so if John wants to keep the thread updated on behalf of people like myself who have pretty much gotten fethed over by ND, then I'm all for it.
Same boat. Agree. Companies who abuse and prey on members of the miniature/Wargaming/Boardgame community deserve every bit of scrutiny and documentation the internet can afford. I personally would rather see a KS sink because they acted ethically and in good faith, than succeed and be rewarded for acting unethically and committing fraud. Ends does not justify the means.
If the KS succeeds, it means they deliver the goods to backers... How are they then committing fraud?
wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
Lying to backers, changing policies after the terms have been set, poor communication, selling products at Gencon before backers while they wait for a year +, ignoring customers who slipped through the cracks and are missing product, changing the type of project and format of what was promised after KS has completed, Co-mingling funds between projects against KS terms of service, denying consumer refunds for months, Ponzi-scheming where they need revenues from retail wave 1 to produce wave 2...
All of those are ways a company can commit fraud, but the KS still eventually delivers. Any I would say most of those are unethical, dishonest or incompetent driven causes which make it fraud.
Just because a company 'delivers' doesn't mean that they succeeded or that they did not commit wrongful or criminal deception along the way to obtain that result. I would rather a company not resort to such behavior to succeed, and once a company does, they are done for me. We wills ee how this all shakes out, but RRI isn't a good sign of things to come.
RRI is a perfect example where the ends don't justify the means, as the means caused them not to deliver what was promised, and they sold retail to make Gencon 2017 and backers still haven't been delivered product. And they have been touting that it has succeeded and delivered for a year now.
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Post by: Col Hammer
HaleysRedComet wrote: Col Hammer wrote:nkelsch wrote: Azazelx wrote:
I'm out every fething cent as I went all-in. I'm also fething exhausted by ND and their empty words of bs, content-free updates, broken promises and outright lies - so if John wants to keep the thread updated on behalf of people like myself who have pretty much gotten fethed over by ND, then I'm all for it.
Same boat. Agree. Companies who abuse and prey on members of the miniature/Wargaming/Boardgame community deserve every bit of scrutiny and documentation the internet can afford. I personally would rather see a KS sink because they acted ethically and in good faith, than succeed and be rewarded for acting unethically and committing fraud. Ends does not justify the means.
If the KS succeeds, it means they deliver the goods to backers... How are they then committing fraud?
Just so I am on the same page - at what point would you say the KS has failed to deliver, what amount of time passed before you would say they have failed?
I don't have an exact cut off day. Since I don't have chance to get my money back, I will then just wait and see what happens (if anything). I just am not super mad at the situation. I'm more just sad that I might not get the rift elves and other stuff that I wanted...
I don't have any answers for you.
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Post by: Sarouan
Col Hammer wrote:
I don't have an exact cut off day. Since I don't have chance to get my money back, I will then just wait and see what happens (if anything). I just am not super mad at the situation. I'm more just sad that I might not get the rift elves and other stuff that I wanted...
I don't have any answers for you.
That's still an answer. I find it better than spouting nonsense of so called "facts" while showing no proof, just assumptions and personnal feelings. That's why I'm doubting the words of some people here.
Since some don't feel the need to justify themselves, you don't have to do it as well, Col Hammer. They have decided we are dumb, so no matter what we will say, they already made their mind on that matter.
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Post by: caylentor
They're a year and a half late, they've completely cut off communication about delivery, they've changed the product multiple times since it began, stopped refunds with no justification and to top it off have raised money for other Kickstarter campaigns and delivered those. At what point do you think they're going to change their methods? Do you think we'll suddenly get an update and some product arriving, or is it not more likely that they'll drag this out as long as possible and hope that people forget about it? At the moment the latter feels much more likely.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
It's over, folks. SPM isn't even pretending any more:
Soda Pop Miniatures wrote:Hello Explorers,
We will be suspending updates until we next have a firm production update to share with you. We share your continued frustration, and apologize for the extended delays we are having in manufacturing and fulfilling your pledges. We remain 100% committed to providing you with an exceptional Super Dungeon product. For those of you who enjoy the continued exploration of the world of Super Dungeon, we will be moving our previews of the fiction content from the Explorer’s Guide to the website.
"100% committed"
0% fulfilled
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Post by: Whumbachumba
Yeah, saw that happening months ago. Too bad I missed the deadline for a refund (not like I would have gotten one anyways) and am out of that money until they decide to actually produce something.
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Post by: warboss
FWIW, the Starfinder kickstarter also looks like a mess albeit one that is s - l - o - w - l - y delivering. Things like running out of unslotted bases (seriously.. how do you not get that count right so early on?) before the first wave of probably 10 ongoing and overlapping waves are happening. Their "May" shipping wave still hasn't finished in July and they're kinda sorta announcing another overlapping who knows when or what you'll get shipping process.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-miniatures/posts/2224619
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Post by: LunarSol
Adorably someone’s trying to sell me on Relic Knights 2 tomorrow...
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Post by: RiTides
I'ved moved this thread to the Board Games subforum (leaving a pointer in N&R, as well).
Unfortunately, if we kept every unfulfilled Kickstarter thread in News & Rumors, we'd have no room to talk about current news  . A bit of a grim reminder that these are not guaranteed to succeed...
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
 LunarSol wrote:Adorably someone’s trying to sell me on Relic Knights 2 tomorrow...
Speaking of Soda Pop's other red headed anime stepchild, I find it odd how far along Relic Knights seems to be in production. They just recently showed off the physical rulebook proofs.
Heck, if they can get that out and it isn't a hot mess, hopefully some of the cash from RK sales can help get this thing finally done!
What are all y'all's thoughts on the new masterclass stuff coming out?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
With these guys, it's impossible to know where RK, etc. would enable any SDE:L stuff to be produced. They have a *lot* of obligations that require money to fulfill, and SDE:L seems to be the last to actually receive anything.
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Post by: Rolsheen
Are these the same guys advertising a game in the current White Dwarf, a collaboration with Games Workshop?
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Post by: akai
 Rolsheen wrote:Are these the same guys advertising a game in the current White Dwarf, a collaboration with Games Workshop?
They are making a Dwarf Slayer card game called "Doomseeker"
As of right now SPM/ND have 4 ongoing Kickstarter projects. All of them are behind schedule:
SDE:Legends : Unknown fulfiment estimate date; apparently, a new plastic manufacturer is being used/tested or looked for to make the models.
Way of the Fighter: The actual game have been shipped/received by majority of backers; none of the resin miniatures for this game (apparently some completed since last month) has been shipped.
Relic Knights 2.0: Shown some production of the resin models and mini-rulebook being approved; unclear when this will be shipped for wave 1 of 3.
Starfinder: Some people received shipment of their "monthly" shipment of resin miniatures, but no one seems to have a concrete understanding of why some people have received two "monthly shipments while others have received none. This is not just US receiving items first before other countries, but some people in the US received nothing so far.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
If I look at the list, it looks like SPM can ship print, but can't deliver minis as promised, which is the heart of the SDE:L problem
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Post by: nkelsch
 akai wrote: Rolsheen wrote:Are these the same guys advertising a game in the current White Dwarf, a collaboration with Games Workshop?
They are making a Dwarf Slayer card game called "Doomseeker"
As of right now SPM/ND have 4 ongoing Kickstarter projects. All of them are behind schedule:
SDE:Legends : Unknown fulfiment estimate date; apparently, a new plastic manufacturer is being used/tested or looked for to make the models.
Way of the Fighter: The actual game have been shipped/received by majority of backers; none of the resin miniatures for this game (apparently some completed since last month) has been shipped.
Relic Knights 2.0: Shown some production of the resin models and mini-rulebook being approved; unclear when this will be shipped for wave 1 of 3.
Starfinder: Some people received shipment of their "monthly" shipment of resin miniatures, but no one seems to have a concrete understanding of why some people have received two "monthly shipments while others have received none. This is not just US receiving items first before other countries, but some people in the US received nothing so far.
Don't forget RRI never finished. They didn't print enough for some of the international hubs, which has left a bunch of people ass-out until the next reprint. And they focused so much on making retail different from the KS product, they can't just send them retail product. So those backers have to wait until RRI justifies a second printing which means it is delayed behind both the current Plastic backlog, and RRI having enough marketshare to justify a PVC run of products for a game no one actually likes and is doomed to go the way of NAS.
Also RRI started the trend of 'we made a promise, but it seems like that it isn't convenient, renege on that promise! too bad backers!'
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Post by: akai
JohnHwangDD wrote:If I look at the list, it looks like SPM can ship print, but can't deliver minis as promised, which is the heart of the SDE:L problem
This is my understanding/assumptions based on backing 4 of their last five kickstarters (Starfinder, I did not backed but followed to see if the company is making a comeback):
The plastic production was a surprised for me when they announced it. The delay in resin miniature production for Way of the Fighter, Relic Knights, and Starfinder I had expected. I assumed SPM/ND were using Prodoss to produce resin miniatures based on their relationship with them in the past. A non- SPM/ND KS project that I backed-that was planning to use Prodoss-decided to not use Prodoss and posted an update informing its backers the reason for it (due to busy schedule, at least one whole year delay before they start making the resin models). This was 2 years ago, iirc. From future comments/updates by SPM/ND it appears they came to realize the "European company" that was making the resin miniatures for them would not be able to produce resin miniatures within a reasonable timeframe. I was informed that Way of the Fighter resin miniatures will be made by two different companies, one from the Europe and one from the United States. This is around the time, the Starfinder campaign was started and over a year (?) has passed on Way of the Fighter anticipated fulfillment date for everything.
nkelsch wrote:Don't forget RRI never finished. They didn't print enough for some of the international hubs, which has left a bunch of people ass-out until the next reprint. And they focused so much on making retail different from the KS product, they can't just send them retail product. So those backers have to wait until RRI justifies a second printing which means it is delayed behind both the current Plastic backlog, and RRI having enough marketshare to justify a PVC run of products for a game no one actually likes and is doomed to go the way of NAS.
Also RRI started the trend of 'we made a promise, but it seems like that it isn't convenient, renege on that promise! too bad backers!'
I have seen some posts from backers that they have not received a shipment, but had assume it was a small subset of people from lost packages, pledge mishandling, etc than not actually having enough product made for a significant portion of the international hub. If that is the case. Had SPM/ND acknowledge they ran out of the product and it waiting for a reprint?
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Post by: nkelsch
akai wrote:
I have seen some posts from backers that they have not received a shipment, but had assume it was a small subset of people from lost packages, pledge mishandling, etc than not actually having enough product made for a significant portion of the international hub. If that is the case. Had SPM/ND acknowledge they ran out of the product and it waiting for a reprint?
ND won't acknowledge anything and count RRI as 100% fulfilled. All we have is the word of the distributors who claim they don't have enough to fulfill, and backers who have unconfirmed comments from employees about 'waiting for a reprint'. (which makes sense as it is plastic.)
Official statements and acknowledgement of people missing product and reliable communication so those people can be counted and helped would go a long way.
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Post by: Original Timmy
akai wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:If I look at the list, it looks like SPM can ship print, but can't deliver minis as promised, which is the heart of the SDE:L problem
. I was informed that Way of the Fighter resin miniatures will be made by two different companies, one from the Europe and one from the United States. This is around the time, the Starfinder campaign was started and over a year (?) has passed on Way of the Fighter anticipated fulfillment date for everything
I believe the USA factory is for the Chibi WOTF minis and they are spin-cast resin, its also the same company that Impact Minis and Raging Heroes use for their resin minis, the normal WOTF minis are being made by Prodos/Achron in Poland and they either drop-cast or uni-cast.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
OK, *this* was an interesting read on FB...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/241607936023872/permalink/911604765690849/?comment_id=911773369007322
John Cadice Stark finally confirmed that SPM doesn't have the money to deliver SDE:L, nor to provide refunds.
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
Can't see the comment in the link.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
You need to go deeper...
Press on "comments" and the "comments" that follow to expand them out. It's not pretty, but it does reveal this:
John Starck Cadice wrote:"we have regrettably had to withhold refunds until we deliver on projects and stem the bleeding of cost overruns and explosion of scope.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/241607936023872/permalink/911604765690849/?comment_id=911773369007322&reply_comment_id=912432028941456
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
Thanks found it, it is not that dire of an answer, I think it is consistent to what they said when they decided to stop the refunds.
That does not make their situation less "special" than before, they have serious management and communication issues they should have never had.
At the moment I am not fearing they will not deliver, but I am sure they will deliver extremely late and their non miniature parts will probably not be as good as the extreme delay this project already has would make somebody expect them to be.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
It's not that good, either:
John Starck Cadice wrote:When this snowball hit us last year, we had 5 outstanding Kickstarters we needed to dig out from under, we have delivered 2, we are delivering 2 currently, and the biggest project that needs the most attention will be when we can lock ALL missiles on the target and get it done
...
We clearly got into hot water with all the simultaneous projects, and attempted to work through them all - we said as much many times, but this one needs to be thought out and done right.
But yes, smaller bites, lower risk, move to a steady delivery and sort them out, then move on to the big monster.
SPM said that they won't do anything SDE:L until after everything else is done. SDE:L, the first to be funded, with the most revenue, will be the last to deliver.
So much for multiple teams that don't affect other projects.
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
Probably also the worse managed.
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Post by: TwilightSparkles
I imagine within a year the whole company will be gone let alone this KS.
KS usually just cover costs. The longer this drags on the greater those costs become especially shipping and anything they import.
They obviously blew the cash from this so somehow multiple smaller, delivered, KS are going to fund production of the biggest one. That's math deserving of a politician.......
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Post by: Sometime
Having seen their convention presence at Gencon over the years and the number of employees they had, their cash burn rate must have been incredibly high.
I think John's topic headline of "failing" is accurate. Regardless of intentions they are:
1. Out of money
2. Have no real prospect of raising more since distribution has all their stuff on clearance - no one is buying
There's no way to dig out of this hole organically, they'll need a white knight to step in. It looks like the GW license is a last ditch effort to focus their resources on a big win, but I doubt it'll do what they need it to do.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
What was their GenCon presence like? Some of us have never been.
I was morbidly looking forward to their models for this year, especially the Relic Knight ones.
I'm like thiiiiiiiiiiis close to actually ordering one if it's reasonably priced.
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