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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I got most of what I was owed, but they still shorted me on the refund. I consider it a public service to keep the spotlight on them.

And they need the spotlight kept on them.

They SOLD RRI retail at Gencon last year. And they shorted their international distributors for their kickstarter and over a year later, a large number of international backers have received nothing and SPM is marking that KS complete.

The long and the short of it is, to fulfill the KS, they need to re-print the non-retail models (the stretches and such) and they can't afford to because they don't want to do a large reprint for plastic models which will never sell at retail. And with Plastic being halted for close to 2 years, it does seem like RRI backers who have not received anything will never get anything.

NAS failing and being killed off as a product shows how poorly their games sell post-KS, and exposes Deke's failure as a valid rules developer as every system he has touched fails on a fundamental level. (usually basic probability issues and lack of understanding how dice work) But they are publicly playtesting NAS conversion cards with zero evidence of playtesting legends.

The Better Business Bureau complaints are piling up now as well. They have refused to answer Inquiries.
https://www.bbb.org/northwest/business-reviews/publishing-consultant/ninja-division-publishing-llc-in-garden-city-id-1000055248/reviews-and-complaints

Oh, and they failed to deliver Pazio's humble bundle models on time, and are way behind on the Starfinder Kickstarter. And when Pazio basically forced them to 'ship as they are finished at a loss for ND', the models being shipped were not cured, sticky and unusable messes. And instead of acknowledging it, they are grilling backers with need for extensive evidence before they will believe any of the models the backers have received are faulty. (How do you photograph sticky resin? How do you photograph soft resin? Your backers are not making stuff up to defraud you ND)

And that is on top of the lack of SDE 2.0 wave 1, and zero evidence of SDE legends being written more than the fluff belched into updates every 2 weeks. Oh, and the lack of refunds, which are totally justified per the refund policy which was part of the KS. Breaching your contract with backers and changing the terms on a whim isn't a good position to be in.

So I would say the thread title is pretty accurate.

 skullking wrote:
I'm guessing SDE must have spent too much on buying the rights to put out all those other companies games, that they've depleted their reserves from this KS. I have yet to get my Rail Raiders pledge yet either, despite messaging them several times through KS. I think combining the RPG with the regular game was a poor choice also, as I don't think everyone really wanted an RPG, and it could have easily just been it's own smaller KS. I really hope they are able to finish this one, as I do love the game, and they funded some awesome stuff.

I backed the KS for the SDE 2.0 stuff. I wasn't really interested in the RPG, but there were not pledge level where the RPG was not included (it was called SDE: Legends, so it kind of made sense that they forced the RPG stuff on everyone).

I just want to play SDE 2.0. That's all.

Right now I have downloaded the final rules and cards, so I can play it. But I hope the downloads will not end up everything I will get from the KS.
I would be happy enough if they just managed to print all the SDE stuff (New core box, Arcade box, Pet parade, boss boxes and the 2 new warbands) and leave just the RPG stuff hanging...

But that is the White knight in me speaking.

 skullking wrote:
I have yet to get my Rail Raiders pledge yet either, despite messaging them several times through KS.

Holy !!. you never got your rail raider pledge??!! Jeez, i got mine months ago. I didn't know that they had failed to fulfill it. That's really up. I hope you get yours all worked out.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.

Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.

Not that I am defending them(they don’t deserve it), but if you are going on a crusade you better make sure your being clear on what your motives are.

This seems like a lesson in over-promising and under-performing.

nkelsch wrote:


So I would say the thread title is pretty accurate.

It was changed recently while the situation didn't. So it's clearly misleading. It was started by John, and the last editing was indeed made two days ago. Nothing is justifying this but John's own agenda/crusade against SPM.

You want to right your wrongs ? Then better not use shady means to get to your ends.

Also remember ; we only have John's words on this matter. He says SPM still owns him money from partial refund ? Why should we trust him just by his words with no proof as he showed only clear partiality towards himself and charge SPM since a long time, no matter what ?

I can't imagine John going to this much effort merely out of spite.

 Nurglitch wrote:
I can't imagine John going to this much effort merely out of spite.

I think we got way past the "spite" step in his case. So far, it really feels more like "hate" to me.

 Theophony wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.

Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.

Not that I am defending them(they don’t deserve it), but if you are going on a crusade you better make sure your being clear on what your motives are.

Why does the amount matter? If provided and you deem its an appropriate amount, will you then ask for proof of purchase and proof of refund? There are people above claiming that they still haven't gotten their stuff from older KS. You have a claim stating that people are getting defective products because they were rushed and not properly treated. You need more than one person to start a crusade and it seems like there is a lot for people to lash out on. I've only been following this out of interest I had from RRT. I didn't back it because I've had years of experience with Palladium but I love Robotech so I still watched. I'm surprised that what I found made me doubt that Palladium was 100% at fault for the failure and Kevin S. was trying to find a scapegoat per usual. I'm probably still at seeing them at 90% fault but the fact that ND and all's practices can make me doubt a heavily biased opinion is something.

If that doesn't work for you let me try another approach. I had around 100$ left to pay on my car and always paid on time. I got put in the hospital for several months and the car was very nearly repossessed. 100$ is small change on a car loan, basically a bit of interest on the total value of the car. Should Toyota just let it go since they got the vast majority of what they were owed?

 Theophony wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.

Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.

A dollar.

Is that transparent enough for you? I came clean when asked. Unlike SPM, who refuse to answer, answer with half-truths, or simply fabricate outright lies.
____

 Nurglitch wrote:
I can't imagine John going to this much effort merely out of spite.

The most relevant phrase would be "rigthetous indignation"

From what I can tell, when they were doing refunds early they were telling people 10% to deter people. Those refunds were flowing.

Someone made a fit about it because I think KS fees are 8% not 10%, and they had to ban him from the KS (which was a 100% refund) and after that all refunds were then missing 8%. There were then those who wanted their 2% back.

And now for over 6 months, people have been getting 0% refunded.

 Sarouan wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
So I would say the thread title is pretty accurate.

It was changed recently while the situation didn't. So it's clearly misleading. It was started by John, and the last editing was indeed made two days ago. Nothing is justifying this but John's own agenda/crusade against SPM.

You want to right your wrongs ? Then better not use shady means to get to your ends.

Also remember ; we only have John's words on this matter. He says SPM still owns him money from partial refund ? Why should we trust him just by his words with no proof as he showed only clear partiality towards himself and charge SPM since a long time, no matter what ?

Wow, major fething conspiracy bullgak there. Are you sockpuppeting for SPM now? (See? I can do it, too!)

The thread title has been that way since March, when SPM announced that they were unilaterally refusing to honor requests, as a material breach of the contract that they offered during the KS. You can track it on Wayback or some other mechanism. If you count May as "recent", I guess you're on SPM time, where being over a year late is no big deal, where saying production is "ready" can take nearly a year to actually start production.

It's absolutely accurate as far as what SPM is (not) doing and refusing to do. If you want to claim it's misleading, you'd damn well better have some fething facts to support that. To date, SPM hasn't shown a single fething thing to suggest they are any closer to actual production than they were when the KS closed. And no, "production" does not count pre-production like proofs or whites. Production is the actual production of goods for customers (backers). SPM has been failing to deliver for a very long time, and the title change was long overdue. It actually should have been posted sometime last year, but I was remiss in that regard. The "no refunds" is an absolute fact, as I quoted multiple times, and is still on KS for your review.

The last edit was indeed a couple days ago, copypasting my response on the May Update for clarity's sake. The first post now quotes SPM in the last substantive Update on the situation (no delivery date, no refunds).

As for justification, I don't need any. If you want to call out an untruth, show me where that's the case.

There's nothing shady on my part. I'm simply showing the shady gak that SPM is doing, and making it clear that they are liars and cheats. Simple as that. If they should ever rectify that by delivering what they promised, I'll be kind enough to note it. Realistically, that won't ever happen, though. It's obvious that SPM doesn't have the money to produce any SDE product for the KS. You don't get to call me "shady" when it's SPM that's actually being shady AF.

As for whose words, well, you are free to contact the other backers on KS and see how their refunds are going since November of last year. Go ahead, ask them. They'll tell you that they have been waiting 6 months for SPM to provide the refund that SPM confirmed they would provide. But I don't owe anything to you, and I won't provide it.

Now go feth off until you can prove that you're not a sock puppet for SPM.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.

Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.

A dollar.

Is that transparent enough for you? I came clean when asked. Unlike SPM, who refuse to answer, answer with half-truths, or simply fabricate outright lies.

You're doing all this because of a dollar? Huh?

 Col Hammer wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.

Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.

A dollar.

Is that transparent enough for you? I came clean when asked. Unlike SPM, who refuse to answer, answer with half-truths, or simply fabricate outright lies.

You're doing all this because of a dollar? Huh?

Yup.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Col Hammer wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.

Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.

A dollar.

Is that transparent enough for you? I came clean when asked. Unlike SPM, who refuse to answer, answer with half-truths, or simply fabricate outright lies.

You're doing all this because of a dollar? Huh?

Yup.

Spoiler:

I don't know if you're truly mad or have been building up to this joke for months but either way well done.

:Eddie Murphy laugh:

nkelsch wrote:


The Better Business Bureau complaints are piling up now as well. They have refused to answer Inquiries.
https://www.bbb.org/northwest/business-reviews/publishing-consultant/ninja-division-publishing-llc-in-garden-city-id-1000055248/reviews-and-complaints

"Piling up now" ? Seriously ? 8 complaints to this day, with 7 filled on 18/06/2018 with "no details" and the other on 29/05/2018 with the only one showing some motive ? Now that's another misleading statement.

Oh, and they failed to deliver Pazio's humble bundle models on time, and are way behind on the Starfinder Kickstarter. And when Pazio basically forced them to 'ship as they are finished at a loss for ND', the models being shipped were not cured, sticky and unusable messes.

Sure. That's not my definition on "unusable mess" by looking at this video (that is not coming from a satisfied backer, BTW) https://www.twitch.tv/videos/268808237

And instead of acknowledging it, they are grilling backers with need for extensive evidence before they will believe any of the models the backers have received are faulty. (How do you photograph sticky resin? How do you photograph soft resin? Your backers are not making stuff up to defraud you ND)

Here's the comment that is "grilling backer with need of extensive evidence" :

Ninja Division Publishing Créateur il y a 6 jours

Starfinders!

If you have received damaged/defective miniatures, please contact us at: starfinder@ninjadivision.com

Please provide photographs of the products in question for documentation. Our customer service team will be able to guide you towards a resolution from there, whatever the issue may be. This email address may also be used for any questions regarding the campaign in general.

Thank you,
Ninja Scott

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-miniatures/comments

He's basically just asking to show pictures for documentation. Not really that surprising on that matter to show proof of what you're claiming in case of a formal complaint.

Funny how's the narrative can be quite different with another point of view, really.

And that is on top of the lack of SDE 2.0 wave 1, and zero evidence of SDE legends being written more than the fluff belched into updates every 2 weeks. Oh, and the lack of refunds, which are totally justified per the refund policy which was part of the KS. Breaching your contract with backers and changing the terms on a whim isn't a good position to be in.

Breaching the contract, really. Show me the contract you signed with them. Spoiler : there isn't.

I would like to remind you the terms and conditions on the first page of the campaign that was there day one :

TERMS AND CONDITIONS

By pledging on this Kickstarter you acknowledge the following:

1. Items shown during the Kickstarter are prototypes and the final product, including models, look, materials, and other content may vary from those shown while the Kickstarter is active.

2. You must confirm your pledge and pay for shipping charges within eight weeks of our email notification asking you to confirm your pledge. Timely shipment cannot be guaranteed for backers who fail to confirm their pledge and/or fail to pay shipping.

3. It is Soda Pop Miniature's responsibility to ship your rewards to you. It is your responsibility to provide Soda Pop Miniatures with a correct address in a timely manner, and to ensure that the provided address is deliverable by normal methods and standard regional postal services. You accept that the shipping date is only an estimate, and that due to the logistics of worldwide shipping, backers in different countries may receive their rewards sooner than others, or that the product may make it into distribution in your own country or into special promotions before your reward arrives. Further, you agree that you are responsible for import duties or any other duties, taxes, or fees that may be payable to complete delivery of your items.

4. You have read and agree to the shipping details provided in the Shipping Information section.

If you do not accept these terms, please do not pledge and wait for retail release. Thank you for your understanding.

For the fluff updates, they said why it was so ; https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explore-legends/posts/2144515

Also, in this link, you have the full original version, not the one cut by John on the first post of this topic modified two days ago.

So I would say the thread title is pretty accurate.

If you follow the Angry Backer's Narrative, yes, it is.

Now I agree that SPM DID things wrong and I dislike delays as well. But I'm tired of the hyperboles from the Angry Backers' side. Not only it brings nothing new at all, it's just spam of the same robot-like "arguments", it is also clear than with time, some people are clearly trying to "change" facts with a few details here and there so that it looks more "outrageous".

And I don't think it's right as well.

 Sarouan wrote:
Breaching the contract, really. Show me the contract you signed with them. Spoiler : there isn't.

You would be 100% wrong in any court of American Law.

By law, KS is like eBay, where the contract is executed virtually:
1. SPM makes an offer (in this case, goods for money)
2. Backer accepts the offer by pledging money for those goods
3. KS executes the contract when they collect the money.

It is the exact same binding contract that you have on eBay:
1. Seller makes an offer
2. Buyer accepts the offer
3. eBay executes the contract when they collect the money.

eCommerce has had this standing in law for decades, and the precedent is very strong.

The specifics of the SPM-Backer contract state very clearly:

REFUND POLICY

Refund requests made within 60 days of the campaign’s end are made through Stripe, directly to your credit card, fees included.

Refunds requested after 60 days are made through Paypal only, less Kickstarter and payment processing fees, which we cannot get back.

No refunds are possible if requested eight weeks before the Kickstarter's actual shipping date, since at that point we have already begun packaging pledges.

That refund policy is part and parcel of SPM's offer, and part of the digital contract between Creator and Backer executed when Kickstarter collected the pledge monies. To claim otherwise is a gross misunderstanding of how the law works.

If you disagree, I will make a Kickstarter for you that will promise to double whatever you pledge, with the same policy, assuming you can exceed the minimum funding level of $100,000 USD. I will, of course, hold you to your current interpretation of how this works, as waiver of any other rights or remedies you might have under law.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


Wow, major fething conspiracy bullgak there. Are you sockpuppeting for SPM now? (See? I can do it, too!)

Typical answer from your side, yes. Anyone going against your narrative is automatically a SPM sock puppet. Thanks for making my point.

The thread title has been that way since March, when SPM announced that they were unilaterally refusing to honor requests, as a material breach of the contract that they offered during the KS. You can track it on Wayback or some other mechanism. If you count May as "recent", I guess you're on SPM time, where being over a year late is no big deal, where saying production is "ready" can take nearly a year to actually start production.

It's absolutely accurate as far as what SPM is (not) doing and refusing to do. If you want to claim it's misleading, you'd damn well better have some fething facts to support that.

That's misleading in the way you're making assumptions from your personnal feelings and trying to make it as "facts". Saying SPM is "refusing to do" while you're not them and making that affirmation close to the production talking makes it like that the fact here is SPM is refusing to do production. Which we don't know, because they never said stuff like this.

To date, SPM hasn't shown a single fething thing to suggest they are any closer to actual production than they were when the KS closed. And no, "production" does not count pre-production like proofs or whites. Production is the actual production of goods for customers (backers). SPM has been failing to deliver for a very long time, and the title change was long overdue. It actually should have been posted sometime last year, but I was remiss in that regard. The "no refunds" is an absolute fact, as I quoted multiple times, and is still on KS for your review.

They also showed no intention of not fulfilling this kickstarter. They stated clearly that they have delays, are unable to state new dates of fullfilment right now (mainly because they failed to achieve them in the past and were called on that multiple times). That situation didn't change, we know all of that but somewhat you still feel the need to go back on this. You know the answer will be the same. That you're not fine with it, I understand. What I'm tired with is that constant hyperbole you keep having (well, you and your fellow "righteous crusaders" as I guess you see yourselves), that bring absolutely nothing new, keep showing only the negative part and deliberately leaving the parts that don't fit your narrative aside because you know perfectly that's not going in your favor.

The last edit was indeed a couple days ago, copypasting my response on the May Update for clarity's sake. The first post now quotes SPM in the last substantive Update on the situation (no delivery date, no refunds).

Which is misleading with the title : "failing to deliver and no refunds". Implying that it will never deliver and there are no refunds at all, including the ones filled before the new statement saying they're closing the open refund period (all words are important, that means not ALL kinds of refund aren't possible, it just means the open ones won't be accepted anymore. You have other means to still make your pleas heard, just they will not be as easy as the open one).

Hyperbole, like I said.

As for justification, I don't need any. If you want to call out an untruth, show me where that's the case.

More like a subtle change/cut version of some things, on intent, and I already showed just above. For the "fluff updates", I could also talk on your constant complaint about the "unfinished pictures", while systematically leaving aside the ones that are, like I showed again in the previous posts.

And yes, I'm aware plenty of backers are unhappy. I'm one too. But the trouble is that some of them use means to make them heard that I don't agree with. Seriously, what's the point of acting like you do ? Do you think you need that ? Do you think it's enjoyable for the others forcing to read that same arguments over and over, while we all know that the answer will still be same from that update of March and answers from Ninja Scott ? Of course it's not, but indeed, that's not the point ; what is the point is to make sure SPM looks despicable no matter what.

Only on dakka could you find people defending creators that blatantly don't give a toss about backers. Excluding the ZkS comments pages ofc.

> Please provide photographs of the products in question for documentation. Our customer service team will be able to guide you towards a resolution from there,

fwiw, I've had to do this with product sent by the retailer, as well as to an OLGS, so that they could send this information to their suppliers for Q&A purposes.

Years ago, Ninja Division was a creator I would back. But, since roughly Palladium and Relic Knights, I've yellow-flagged any project they were involved with. ND's customer service towards backers doesn't seem to exist. John also criticized their game development, which also helped my decision to not back their projects. I didn't have a good first impression of their Infinite Rail Riders.

Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/87hz43/ninja_division_super_dungeon_explore_pulling_out/

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


You would be 100% wrong in any court of American Law.

If you're so sure of your rights, then you should go the American courts to sue them. Right ?

But since you got your refund, you don't really have the need. And feeling righteous doesn't mean going that far as losing potentially more money in court for the sake of "Justice", I bet.

The truth is, as long as there is a chance to get what we pledged for, even just a part, it's not worth it. The risks are as great not to gain anything in the end while costing you more. I think the majority of backers are waiting because there is no point to rant in the void and will truly take actions once SPM actually and definitely announces the Kickstarter is a failure (if it really happens, of course).

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Only on dakka could you find people defending creators that blatantly don't give a toss about backers. Excluding the ZkS comments pages ofc.

.

Ah for the old days when we were the incredulous board who all hated equally and had zero tolerance for this kind of bull.

 Sarouan wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


You would be 100% wrong in any court of American Law.

If you're so sure of your rights, then you should go the American courts to sue them. Right ?

But since you got your refund, you don't really have the need. And feeling righteous doesn't mean going that far as losing potentially more money in court for the sake of "Justice", I bet.

The truth is, as long as there is a chance to get what we pledged for, even just a part, it's not worth it. The risks are as great not to gain anything in the end while costing you more. I think the majority of backers are waiting because there is no point to rant in the void and will truly take actions once SPM actually and definitely announces the Kickstarter is a failure (if it really happens, of course).

I can't speak for the prior poster but I can say I received a refund minus the 8% for a completionist pledge in April ,I believe this was because I had already sent them a letter of intent of legal action and a deadline date and was willingto seeit through even though I am not Amercian .

IANAL but refundingyou would mean you no longer had grounds or standing for legal redress.


Or maybe they just deemed me too toxic. Either way they banned me from both the KS page and their own forums

 Sarouan wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


You would be 100% wrong in any court of American Law.

If you're so sure of your rights, then you should go the American courts to sue them. Right ?

I am, aside from the fact that the cost of enforcing my rights would have exceeded the amount in question by several orders of magnitude. I don't spend thousands to get hundreds.

But then again, you didn't bother to do the slightest modicum of research on the case law which applies, and the consumer law is crystal clear. So maybe you should not spout ignorant gak.

I haven't tried for a refund, am an all-in backer who all-in backed (and received rewards for) Forgotten King, and am really hoping they eventually make good on this one. I'm not going to defend their behavior, but I'm also not writing this off...I genuinely hope they turn this around, because they have a good IP here, with some quality art and renders...and a history of producing quality minis.

 Sarouan wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


Wow, major fething conspiracy bullgak there. Are you sockpuppeting for SPM now? (See? I can do it, too!)

Typical answer from your side, yes. Anyone going against your narrative is automatically a SPM sock puppet. Thanks for making my point.

The thread title has been that way since March, when SPM announced that they were unilaterally refusing to honor requests, as a material breach of the contract that they offered during the KS. You can track it on Wayback or some other mechanism. If you count May as "recent", I guess you're on SPM time, where being over a year late is no big deal, where saying production is "ready" can take nearly a year to actually start production.

It's absolutely accurate as far as what SPM is (not) doing and refusing to do. If you want to claim it's misleading, you'd damn well better have some fething facts to support that.

That's misleading in the way you're making assumptions from your personnal feelings and trying to make it as "facts". Saying SPM is "refusing to do" while you're not them and making that affirmation close to the production talking makes it like that the fact here is SPM is refusing to do production. Which we don't know, because they never said stuff like this.

To date, SPM hasn't shown a single fething thing to suggest they are any closer to actual production than they were when the KS closed. And no, "production" does not count pre-production like proofs or whites. Production is the actual production of goods for customers (backers). SPM has been failing to deliver for a very long time, and the title change was long overdue. It actually should have been posted sometime last year, but I was remiss in that regard. The "no refunds" is an absolute fact, as I quoted multiple times, and is still on KS for your review.

They also showed no intention of not fulfilling this kickstarter. They stated clearly that they have delays, are unable to state new dates of fullfilment right now (mainly because they failed to achieve them in the past and were called on that multiple times). That situation didn't change, we know all of that but somewhat you still feel the need to go back on this. You know the answer will be the same. That you're not fine with it, I understand. What I'm tired with is that constant hyperbole you keep having (well, you and your fellow "righteous crusaders" as I guess you see yourselves), that bring absolutely nothing new, keep showing only the negative part and deliberately leaving the parts that don't fit your narrative aside because you know perfectly that's not going in your favor.

The last edit was indeed a couple days ago, copypasting my response on the May Update for clarity's sake. The first post now quotes SPM in the last substantive Update on the situation (no delivery date, no refunds).

Which is misleading with the title : "failing to deliver and no refunds". Implying that it will never deliver and there are no refunds at all, including the ones filled before the new statement saying they're closing the open refund period (all words are important, that means not ALL kinds of refund aren't possible, it just means the open ones won't be accepted anymore. You have other means to still make your pleas heard, just they will not be as easy as the open one).

Hyperbole, like I said.

As for justification, I don't need any. If you want to call out an untruth, show me where that's the case.

More like a subtle change/cut version of some things, on intent, and I already showed just above. For the "fluff updates", I could also talk on your constant complaint about the "unfinished pictures", while systematically leaving aside the ones that are, like I showed again in the previous posts.

And yes, I'm aware plenty of backers are unhappy. I'm one too. But the trouble is that some of them use means to make them heard that I don't agree with. Seriously, what's the point of acting like you do ? Do you think you need that ? Do you think it's enjoyable for the others forcing to read that same arguments over and over, while we all know that the answer will still be same from that update of March and answers from Ninja Scott ? Of course it's not, but indeed, that's not the point ; what is the point is to make sure SPM looks despicable no matter what.

Let's be clear that you created the issue by ascribing dishonesty to my posts, and that was completely uncalled for. Of course I am going to push back on that. Right now, you are acting the sock puppet. As for calling it a "narrative", that again is counterfactual, willfully ignoring the actual facts of the situation.

With respect to "refusing", I have been consistent in using that to describe the refund situation. SPM has been refusing to accept refunds that are legally owed, SPM has been refusing to pay refunds that they agreed to pay. Those are facts, and they are legion.

SPM has also been failing to deliver, and that is also a fact. There is NO delivery plan, regardless of what they claim - their claims are hollow, as they have never delivered on any of them. They have made a lot of excuses, but those excuses are not adequate for the size of the delay.

SPM is failing to deliver and refusing to refund. Those are the actual facts on the ground today. They tell a lot of lies, though. If you continue to be dumb enough to believe what they say, despite months, years of failing to follow through on those promises, that's on you. But it doesn't change the fact that they are lying about delivery and lying about refunds.

And let's be clear that the contract that SPM offered obliges them to accept refunds per the refund policy. They are nowhere near being within 8 weeks of the actual shipping date, so SPM cannot legally deny refunds without breaching the contract that they voluntarily offered. That's not hyperbole. That's basic contract law.

If you cannot comment with something substantive, you should stop attempting to obfuscate the facts here,

 Theophony wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.

Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.
Not that I am defending them(they don’t deserve it), but if you are going on a crusade you better make sure your being clear on what your motives are.

I don't think it's really especially pertinent. To use a Godwin example - Just because it wasn't his family that was murdered by the SS, doesn't mean he can't hate Nazis. John's under no obligation to share that information, as he's not the one who has failed to deliver anything but empty promises to 6,611 people while still pumping out other products and running subsequent campaigns for more.

I'm out every fething cent as I went all-in. I'm also fething exhausted by ND and their empty words of bs, content-free updates, broken promises and outright lies - so if John wants to keep the thread updated on behalf of people like myself who have pretty much gotten fethed over by ND, then I'm all for it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Col Hammer wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.

Out of curiosity, how much less? You demand that they be transparent, how about you be as transparent as you are asking them to be.

A dollar.

Is that transparent enough for you? I came clean when asked. Unlike SPM, who refuse to answer, answer with half-truths, or simply fabricate outright lies.

You're doing all this because of a dollar? Huh?

Yup.

Spoiler:

So this is a troll thread after all?

No wonder the accusations of sock puppets and white knights fly so thick. Standard trolling tactics.

 Azazelx wrote:


I'm out every fething cent as I went all-in. I'm also fething exhausted by ND and their empty words of bs, content-free updates, broken promises and outright lies - so if John wants to keep the thread updated on behalf of people like myself who have pretty much gotten fethed over by ND, then I'm all for it.

Same boat. Agree. Companies who abuse and prey on members of the miniature/Wargaming/Boardgame community deserve every bit of scrutiny and documentation the internet can afford. I personally would rather see a KS sink because they acted ethically and in good faith, than succeed and be rewarded for acting unethically and committing fraud. Ends does not justify the means.