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nkelsch wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:


I'm out every fething cent as I went all-in. I'm also fething exhausted by ND and their empty words of bs, content-free updates, broken promises and outright lies - so if John wants to keep the thread updated on behalf of people like myself who have pretty much gotten fethed over by ND, then I'm all for it.

Same boat. Agree. Companies who abuse and prey on members of the miniature/Wargaming/Boardgame community deserve every bit of scrutiny and documentation the internet can afford. I personally would rather see a KS sink because they acted ethically and in good faith, than succeed and be rewarded for acting unethically and committing fraud. Ends does not justify the means.

If the KS succeeds, it means they deliver the goods to backers... How are they then committing fraud?

 skullking wrote:
I'm guessing SDE must have spent too much on buying the rights to put out all those other companies games, that they've depleted their reserves from this KS. I have yet to get my Rail Raiders pledge yet either, despite messaging them several times through KS. I think combining the RPG with the regular game was a poor choice also, as I don't think everyone really wanted an RPG, and it could have easily just been it's own smaller KS. I really hope they are able to finish this one, as I do love the game, and they funded some awesome stuff.

Try, messaging them through email with order number from the SPM store account: info@sodapopminiatures.com

 Col Hammer wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:


I'm out every fething cent as I went all-in. I'm also fething exhausted by ND and their empty words of bs, content-free updates, broken promises and outright lies - so if John wants to keep the thread updated on behalf of people like myself who have pretty much gotten fethed over by ND, then I'm all for it.

Same boat. Agree. Companies who abuse and prey on members of the miniature/Wargaming/Boardgame community deserve every bit of scrutiny and documentation the internet can afford. I personally would rather see a KS sink because they acted ethically and in good faith, than succeed and be rewarded for acting unethically and committing fraud. Ends does not justify the means.

If the KS succeeds, it means they deliver the goods to backers... How are they then committing fraud?

Just so I am on the same page - at what point would you say the KS has failed to deliver, what amount of time passed before you would say they have failed?

 Col Hammer wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:


I'm out every fething cent as I went all-in. I'm also fething exhausted by ND and their empty words of bs, content-free updates, broken promises and outright lies - so if John wants to keep the thread updated on behalf of people like myself who have pretty much gotten fethed over by ND, then I'm all for it.

Same boat. Agree. Companies who abuse and prey on members of the miniature/Wargaming/Boardgame community deserve every bit of scrutiny and documentation the internet can afford. I personally would rather see a KS sink because they acted ethically and in good faith, than succeed and be rewarded for acting unethically and committing fraud. Ends does not justify the means.

If the KS succeeds, it means they deliver the goods to backers... How are they then committing fraud?

wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

Lying to backers, changing policies after the terms have been set, poor communication, selling products at Gencon before backers while they wait for a year +, ignoring customers who slipped through the cracks and are missing product, changing the type of project and format of what was promised after KS has completed, Co-mingling funds between projects against KS terms of service, denying consumer refunds for months, Ponzi-scheming where they need revenues from retail wave 1 to produce wave 2...

All of those are ways a company can commit fraud, but the KS still eventually delivers. Any I would say most of those are unethical, dishonest or incompetent driven causes which make it fraud.

Just because a company 'delivers' doesn't mean that they succeeded or that they did not commit wrongful or criminal deception along the way to obtain that result. I would rather a company not resort to such behavior to succeed, and once a company does, they are done for me. We wills ee how this all shakes out, but RRI isn't a good sign of things to come.

RRI is a perfect example where the ends don't justify the means, as the means caused them not to deliver what was promised, and they sold retail to make Gencon 2017 and backers still haven't been delivered product. And they have been touting that it has succeeded and delivered for a year now.

HaleysRedComet wrote:

 Col Hammer wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:


I'm out every fething cent as I went all-in. I'm also fething exhausted by ND and their empty words of bs, content-free updates, broken promises and outright lies - so if John wants to keep the thread updated on behalf of people like myself who have pretty much gotten fethed over by ND, then I'm all for it.

Same boat. Agree. Companies who abuse and prey on members of the miniature/Wargaming/Boardgame community deserve every bit of scrutiny and documentation the internet can afford. I personally would rather see a KS sink because they acted ethically and in good faith, than succeed and be rewarded for acting unethically and committing fraud. Ends does not justify the means.

If the KS succeeds, it means they deliver the goods to backers... How are they then committing fraud?

Just so I am on the same page - at what point would you say the KS has failed to deliver, what amount of time passed before you would say they have failed?

I don't have an exact cut off day. Since I don't have chance to get my money back, I will then just wait and see what happens (if anything). I just am not super mad at the situation. I'm more just sad that I might not get the rift elves and other stuff that I wanted...
I don't have any answers for you.

 Col Hammer wrote:

I don't have an exact cut off day. Since I don't have chance to get my money back, I will then just wait and see what happens (if anything). I just am not super mad at the situation. I'm more just sad that I might not get the rift elves and other stuff that I wanted...
I don't have any answers for you.

That's still an answer. I find it better than spouting nonsense of so called "facts" while showing no proof, just assumptions and personnal feelings. That's why I'm doubting the words of some people here.

Since some don't feel the need to justify themselves, you don't have to do it as well, Col Hammer. They have decided we are dumb, so no matter what we will say, they already made their mind on that matter.

They're a year and a half late, they've completely cut off communication about delivery, they've changed the product multiple times since it began, stopped refunds with no justification and to top it off have raised money for other Kickstarter campaigns and delivered those. At what point do you think they're going to change their methods? Do you think we'll suddenly get an update and some product arriving, or is it not more likely that they'll drag this out as long as possible and hope that people forget about it? At the moment the latter feels much more likely.

It's over, folks. SPM isn't even pretending any more:

Soda Pop Miniatures wrote:Hello Explorers,
We will be suspending updates until we next have a firm production update to share with you. We share your continued frustration, and apologize for the extended delays we are having in manufacturing and fulfilling your pledges. We remain 100% committed to providing you with an exceptional Super Dungeon product. For those of you who enjoy the continued exploration of the world of Super Dungeon, we will be moving our previews of the fiction content from the Explorer’s Guide to the website.

"100% committed"

0% fulfilled

Yeah, saw that happening months ago. Too bad I missed the deadline for a refund (not like I would have gotten one anyways) and am out of that money until they decide to actually produce something.

FWIW, the Starfinder kickstarter also looks like a mess albeit one that is s - l - o - w - l - y delivering. Things like running out of unslotted bases (seriously.. how do you not get that count right so early on?) before the first wave of probably 10 ongoing and overlapping waves are happening. Their "May" shipping wave still hasn't finished in July and they're kinda sorta announcing another overlapping who knows when or what you'll get shipping process.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-miniatures/posts/2224619

Adorably someone’s trying to sell me on Relic Knights 2 tomorrow...

I'ved moved this thread to the Board Games subforum (leaving a pointer in N&R, as well).

Unfortunately, if we kept every unfulfilled Kickstarter thread in News & Rumors, we'd have no room to talk about current news . A bit of a grim reminder that these are not guaranteed to succeed...

 LunarSol wrote:
Adorably someone’s trying to sell me on Relic Knights 2 tomorrow...

Speaking of Soda Pop's other red headed anime stepchild, I find it odd how far along Relic Knights seems to be in production. They just recently showed off the physical rulebook proofs.

Heck, if they can get that out and it isn't a hot mess, hopefully some of the cash from RK sales can help get this thing finally done!

What are all y'all's thoughts on the new masterclass stuff coming out?

With these guys, it's impossible to know where RK, etc. would enable any SDE:L stuff to be produced. They have a *lot* of obligations that require money to fulfill, and SDE:L seems to be the last to actually receive anything.

Are these the same guys advertising a game in the current White Dwarf, a collaboration with Games Workshop?

 Rolsheen wrote:
Are these the same guys advertising a game in the current White Dwarf, a collaboration with Games Workshop?

They are making a Dwarf Slayer card game called "Doomseeker"

As of right now SPM/ND have 4 ongoing Kickstarter projects. All of them are behind schedule:

SDE:Legends : Unknown fulfiment estimate date; apparently, a new plastic manufacturer is being used/tested or looked for to make the models.
Way of the Fighter: The actual game have been shipped/received by majority of backers; none of the resin miniatures for this game (apparently some completed since last month) has been shipped.
Relic Knights 2.0: Shown some production of the resin models and mini-rulebook being approved; unclear when this will be shipped for wave 1 of 3.
Starfinder: Some people received shipment of their "monthly" shipment of resin miniatures, but no one seems to have a concrete understanding of why some people have received two "monthly shipments while others have received none. This is not just US receiving items first before other countries, but some people in the US received nothing so far.

If I look at the list, it looks like SPM can ship print, but can't deliver minis as promised, which is the heart of the SDE:L problem

 akai wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
Are these the same guys advertising a game in the current White Dwarf, a collaboration with Games Workshop?

They are making a Dwarf Slayer card game called "Doomseeker"

As of right now SPM/ND have 4 ongoing Kickstarter projects. All of them are behind schedule:

SDE:Legends : Unknown fulfiment estimate date; apparently, a new plastic manufacturer is being used/tested or looked for to make the models.
Way of the Fighter: The actual game have been shipped/received by majority of backers; none of the resin miniatures for this game (apparently some completed since last month) has been shipped.
Relic Knights 2.0: Shown some production of the resin models and mini-rulebook being approved; unclear when this will be shipped for wave 1 of 3.
Starfinder: Some people received shipment of their "monthly" shipment of resin miniatures, but no one seems to have a concrete understanding of why some people have received two "monthly shipments while others have received none. This is not just US receiving items first before other countries, but some people in the US received nothing so far.

Don't forget RRI never finished. They didn't print enough for some of the international hubs, which has left a bunch of people ass-out until the next reprint. And they focused so much on making retail different from the KS product, they can't just send them retail product. So those backers have to wait until RRI justifies a second printing which means it is delayed behind both the current Plastic backlog, and RRI having enough marketshare to justify a PVC run of products for a game no one actually likes and is doomed to go the way of NAS.

Also RRI started the trend of 'we made a promise, but it seems like that it isn't convenient, renege on that promise! too bad backers!'

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If I look at the list, it looks like SPM can ship print, but can't deliver minis as promised, which is the heart of the SDE:L problem

This is my understanding/assumptions based on backing 4 of their last five kickstarters (Starfinder, I did not backed but followed to see if the company is making a comeback):
The plastic production was a surprised for me when they announced it. The delay in resin miniature production for Way of the Fighter, Relic Knights, and Starfinder I had expected. I assumed SPM/ND were using Prodoss to produce resin miniatures based on their relationship with them in the past. A non-SPM/ND KS project that I backed-that was planning to use Prodoss-decided to not use Prodoss and posted an update informing its backers the reason for it (due to busy schedule, at least one whole year delay before they start making the resin models). This was 2 years ago, iirc. From future comments/updates by SPM/ND it appears they came to realize the "European company" that was making the resin miniatures for them would not be able to produce resin miniatures within a reasonable timeframe. I was informed that Way of the Fighter resin miniatures will be made by two different companies, one from the Europe and one from the United States. This is around the time, the Starfinder campaign was started and over a year (?) has passed on Way of the Fighter anticipated fulfillment date for everything.

nkelsch wrote:
Don't forget RRI never finished. They didn't print enough for some of the international hubs, which has left a bunch of people ass-out until the next reprint. And they focused so much on making retail different from the KS product, they can't just send them retail product. So those backers have to wait until RRI justifies a second printing which means it is delayed behind both the current Plastic backlog, and RRI having enough marketshare to justify a PVC run of products for a game no one actually likes and is doomed to go the way of NAS.

Also RRI started the trend of 'we made a promise, but it seems like that it isn't convenient, renege on that promise! too bad backers!'

I have seen some posts from backers that they have not received a shipment, but had assume it was a small subset of people from lost packages, pledge mishandling, etc than not actually having enough product made for a significant portion of the international hub. If that is the case. Had SPM/ND acknowledge they ran out of the product and it waiting for a reprint?

 akai wrote:


I have seen some posts from backers that they have not received a shipment, but had assume it was a small subset of people from lost packages, pledge mishandling, etc than not actually having enough product made for a significant portion of the international hub. If that is the case. Had SPM/ND acknowledge they ran out of the product and it waiting for a reprint?

ND won't acknowledge anything and count RRI as 100% fulfilled. All we have is the word of the distributors who claim they don't have enough to fulfill, and backers who have unconfirmed comments from employees about 'waiting for a reprint'. (which makes sense as it is plastic.)

Official statements and acknowledgement of people missing product and reliable communication so those people can be counted and helped would go a long way.

 akai wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If I look at the list, it looks like SPM can ship print, but can't deliver minis as promised, which is the heart of the SDE:L problem

. I was informed that Way of the Fighter resin miniatures will be made by two different companies, one from the Europe and one from the United States. This is around the time, the Starfinder campaign was started and over a year (?) has passed on Way of the Fighter anticipated fulfillment date for everything

I believe the USA factory is for the Chibi WOTF minis and they are spin-cast resin, its also the same company that Impact Minis and Raging Heroes use for their resin minis, the normal WOTF minis are being made by Prodos/Achron in Poland and they either drop-cast or uni-cast.

OK, *this* was an interesting read on FB...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/241607936023872/permalink/911604765690849/?comment_id=911773369007322

John Cadice Stark finally confirmed that SPM doesn't have the money to deliver SDE:L, nor to provide refunds.

Can't see the comment in the link.

You need to go deeper...

Press on "comments" and the "comments" that follow to expand them out. It's not pretty, but it does reveal this:

John Starck Cadice wrote:"we have regrettably had to withhold refunds until we deliver on projects and stem the bleeding of cost overruns and explosion of scope.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/241607936023872/permalink/911604765690849/?comment_id=911773369007322&reply_comment_id=912432028941456

Thanks found it, it is not that dire of an answer, I think it is consistent to what they said when they decided to stop the refunds.

That does not make their situation less "special" than before, they have serious management and communication issues they should have never had.

At the moment I am not fearing they will not deliver, but I am sure they will deliver extremely late and their non miniature parts will probably not be as good as the extreme delay this project already has would make somebody expect them to be.

It's not that good, either:

John Starck Cadice wrote:When this snowball hit us last year, we had 5 outstanding Kickstarters we needed to dig out from under, we have delivered 2, we are delivering 2 currently, and the biggest project that needs the most attention will be when we can lock ALL missiles on the target and get it done

...

We clearly got into hot water with all the simultaneous projects, and attempted to work through them all - we said as much many times, but this one needs to be thought out and done right.
But yes, smaller bites, lower risk, move to a steady delivery and sort them out, then move on to the big monster.

SPM said that they won't do anything SDE:L until after everything else is done. SDE:L, the first to be funded, with the most revenue, will be the last to deliver.

So much for multiple teams that don't affect other projects.

Probably also the worse managed.

I imagine within a year the whole company will be gone let alone this KS.

KS usually just cover costs. The longer this drags on the greater those costs become especially shipping and anything they import.

They obviously blew the cash from this so somehow multiple smaller, delivered, KS are going to fund production of the biggest one. That's math deserving of a politician.......

Having seen their convention presence at Gencon over the years and the number of employees they had, their cash burn rate must have been incredibly high.

I think John's topic headline of "failing" is accurate. Regardless of intentions they are:
1. Out of money
2. Have no real prospect of raising more since distribution has all their stuff on clearance - no one is buying

There's no way to dig out of this hole organically, they'll need a white knight to step in. It looks like the GW license is a last ditch effort to focus their resources on a big win, but I doubt it'll do what they need it to do.

What was their GenCon presence like? Some of us have never been.

I was morbidly looking forward to their models for this year, especially the Relic Knight ones.

I'm like thiiiiiiiiiiis close to actually ordering one if it's reasonably priced.