Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update!

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**BigOscar**

JonWebb wrote:
BigOscar wrote:
So the final SG is a fairly pointless coin, oh well. Still very pleased with the KS, plenty of things to get excited about and generally a very impressive haul of free stuff. Plenty of super-cutesy stuff for my girlfriend as well which will keep her from questioning why I need yet more figures when I haven't even started painting the huge pile that have arrived recently.

You say that now...

I got hooked on coins from pp (several sodapop guys are ex pp too... Coincidence? ) I've got four bronze and four silver pp painting coins, all three pg coins produced so far and several cryx faction coins from over the years. I even commissioned my own resin and eventually metal coins for painting events I run in the uk. Coins are addictive.

The sde one from fk was pretty cool, it's surprisingly chunky.

It's quite an American military thing I think, the challenge coin, but it's quite a fun token ultimately.

I guess everything is subjective, but I am primarily a painter though I suppose, so tokens were never likely to get me too excited. As a final thing for the KS I guess it makes sense, as you normally either have something truly spectacular or something to just sort of commemorate the whole thing.

**JonWebb**

BigOscar wrote:
JonWebb wrote:
BigOscar wrote:
So the final SG is a fairly pointless coin, oh well. Still very pleased with the KS, plenty of things to get excited about and generally a very impressive haul of free stuff. Plenty of super-cutesy stuff for my girlfriend as well which will keep her from questioning why I need yet more figures when I haven't even started painting the huge pile that have arrived recently.

You say that now...

I got hooked on coins from pp (several sodapop guys are ex pp too... Coincidence? ) I've got four bronze and four silver pp painting coins, all three pg coins produced so far and several cryx faction coins from over the years. I even commissioned my own resin and eventually metal coins for painting events I run in the uk. Coins are addictive.

The sde one from fk was pretty cool, it's surprisingly chunky.

It's quite an American military thing I think, the challenge coin, but it's quite a fun token ultimately.

I guess everything is subjective, but I am primarily a painter though I suppose, so tokens were never likely to get me too excited. As a final thing for the KS I guess it makes sense, as you normally either have something truly spectacular or something to just sort of commemorate the whole thing.

I'm primarily a painter too

**JohnHwangDD**

The coin is nice, and matches my Princess Coin from TFK.

Breaking $1.25M is a good job.
____

$1.29M final total

About 20% higher than I had initially estimated, and about 10% higher than FK - so a very good result for SPM/ND.

____

I'm going to hold on Rail Raiders, as I'm more up for a Victorian Steam game than a Cowboy Cops & Robbers game, but maybe that just means I focus on Malifaux?

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

wrogn thread

**akai**

I think Beatrix and Jack were products that were not part of a Kickstarter. So there is still a chance of them being released in the future without the need of Kickstarter funding.

**highlord tamburlaine**

Quite an impressive haul this time around. Even moreso than with Forgotten King I'd say.

I think it would be in Sodapop's best interest to keep a steady stream of stuff trickling into retail in the period between now and when the game ships.

Who knows, maybe we'll see those missing Fire Flowers before 2.0's arrival.

I even managed to talk my wife in to letting me put the base game on the credit card (as opposed to my hobby funds one) rather than just going in for a buck and adding it all in the PM.

I know I'll be doing my part to push for small bite size random adventures to be included in Legends.

**Schmapdi**

I love my TFK coin - it makes a bang up paper-weight. Keeps all my receipts nice and tidy on my desk.

**JohnHwangDD**

Yeah, the Princess Coin is considerably larger than I had expected. I had anticipated something the size and heft of an Eisenhower Dollar (old-school Vegas chip), but what we got was more bigger and awesomer.

**JohnHwangDD**

Today is April 7, 2017, 4 days shy of 1 Year and 5 Months ago from when the KS closed on November 11, 2015. And what do we have?

Not much.

We got some really great feedback last week - and wanted to find a different way to visually share with you our progress week to week. I hope this helps, as always, we are keen to stay as transparent as able. Your love, time, and investment make this all possible! We are working on a visual progress bar for all our working elements that will greatly help you know at a glance what is going on!

Here is the texty version - pretty graphics to come next week:

* Super Dungeon Development - 33% (Wave 1 is ready for layout, Wave 2 assets will be ready when Wave 1 of Relic Knights is completed)
* Artwork, Sculpting, Layout - 33% (All character, treasure, item, and board art is complete, most of the sculpts are done, waiting to see production samples for the bosses of legends)
* Pre-press and Manufacturing - 33% (Most of Wave 1 sculpts are approved, next step after layout is to check Wave 1 eproofs)
* Fulfillment - 0% Wave 1 -
* SDE 2.0 - 80% (This Wave includes SDE 2.0 Classic, Frostbyte Ravagers, Crownguard, and the two heroes/mini bosses. This stuff just needs to be laid out after Way of the Fighter)
* Wave 2 - (x) - 40%
* Wave 3 - Legends - 0% (Ninja Deke is hard at work)

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explore-legends/posts/1847338

I am more than a little disappointed with this whole thing.

**DaveC**

It's getting ridiculous now 4 months late and they only have 33% done! and Way of the Fighter has been bumped ahead of it. SPM are clearly lacking resources and the idea of starting one KS after another to keep funds coming in is looking more plausible. This has to have an effect on RK too and for that reason I've asked for a refund of my RK pledge I just don't want to tie up with more money with SPM now.

**Binabik15**

Loooool. So glad I disliked the orcs and several other minis (sorry: unfinished renders not even close to production

) like nu-dragon babies to not really want either pledge combo. Those owlbear and ghost creeps were SO close to pull me in, but it looks like I made the right choice. The rules being a mess was sadly expected after FK, but hardly anything close to production readiness? That's cheeky.

**JohnHwangDD**

Welp, SPM finally gave an Update that catches everybody up on where things really are today. Highlights follow:

We know that many of you are unhappy with us right now. We have heard you, and we are here to be as upfront and honest as we possibly can be.

Production of wave 1 will begin November 2017, and we estimate delivery (models on your doorstep) to happen mid April 2018.

The only two products for which we guarantee retail packaging will be the Super Dungeon: Explore core box and the Super Dungeon: Arcade core box.

We expect Legends to be done and fully laid out by the middle of next January. All other wave 2 content will be laid out within the next month. We are considering breaking Legends off into a third wave in order to get you the rest of wave 2 earlier, however that has not been decided.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explore-legends/posts/2002230

It's none to pretty, with production not starting until November (after the Starfinder KS closes), and not delivering until later Q2 2018, at the earliest - basically, a year-and-a-half late for Wave 1, and even later for Wave 2.

I had already committed to asking for a refund earlier in the week, and this doesn't really inspire me to reverse that position.

**caylentor**

I'm still torn on what to do. I love their miniatures and they're pretty hard/expensive to get in the UK, so if they did ever deliver then I'd be better off than if I tried to get them retail, but it's been such a farce the whole way through that I'm not convinced they'll ever release and I might just lose my investment. If I did get a refund I'd make a small profit thanks to the drop in the pound so that's edging me that way but it's tricky. I'm certainly never backing a SPM Kickstarter again.

**JohnHwangDD**

The SPM minis *are* lovely, that's for certain. The question is whether they will actually deliver.

In my mind, I'm leaning toward the notion that SPM is financially strapped because they spent the SDE:L money on a host of so-so projects that they had hoped would catapult them from a niche producer of a single profitable game (SDE) to a producer/publisher of a host of games a la CMoN.

That is, to me, it's no accident that the claimed production start date is Nov 1st, almost exactly 2 weeks after Starfinder closes and funds are released to SPM. I believe that SPM is using Starfinder to fund SDE:L Wave 1 production.

Had SPM been able to share that SDE:L was actually in production today, and would have a substantial portion of Wave 1 produced prior to Starfinder closing, I might reconsider despite my other misgivings.

In the mean time, I am going to be pushing my refund now, giving SPM/ND the opportunity to make good on their stated "6-8 day refund" window *before* the Starfinder campaign closes. If they can't do that, I'll start raising hell on Paizo's social media and the Starfinder campaign.

**455_PWR**

I had all the SDE minis, and sold them off a while back as I never got around to playing the game (damn... should have kept that kingdom death mini). I had thought of pledging for RRI or SDE:L... but decided to wait for retail based on some of ND/SPM's handling of past campaigns. It seems they did the same thing that happened in the avp/robotech campaigns. It seems they have had to run new KS to pay for and complete old campaigns... which leads companies into death spirals.

I did buy a copy of RRI off ebay tonight. Paid double what my pledge was, but I had time to save for it and didn't have to risk anything. Looks like I'll do the same for legends. I really want that horseman and dragons, even though I probably won't play SDE. I plan to use them for AQ.

**Binabik15**

Woah, looks like I dodgwd a massive bullet there. I loved the ghosts, knights and owl bear...things, but not the cord model remakes and no pledge level was a good fit for me.

SPM, you claimed you were cool.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
The SPM minis *are* lovely, that's for certain. The question is whether they will actually deliver.

In my mind, I'm leaning toward the notion that SPM is financially strapped because they spent the SDE:L money on a host of so-so projects that they had hoped would catapult them from a niche producer of a single profitable game (SDE) to a producer/publisher of a host of games a la CMoN.

That is, to me, it's no accident that the claimed production start date is Nov 1st, almost exactly 2 weeks after Starfinder closes and funds are released to SPM. I believe that SPM is using Starfinder to fund SDE:L Wave 1 production.

Had SPM been able to share that SDE:L was actually in production today, and would have a substantial portion of Wave 1 produced prior to Starfinder closing, I might reconsider despite my other misgivings.

In the mean time, I am going to be pushing my refund now, giving SPM/ND the opportunity to make good on their stated "6-8 day refund" window *before* the Starfinder campaign closes. If they can't do that, I'll start raising hell on Paizo's social media and the Starfinder campaign.

I'm pretty sure Paizo is smart enough not to be in a position where their name could be at risk from revenue for this ending up paying for something else, I'm sure they'll have oversight to make sure it doesn't happen (after all that's a huge amount of bad press, especially as SMP/ND is handling their other starfinder minis too and with pathfinder withering under the D&D 5th assault this HAS to be a success)

I think it's much more likely that without enough senior staff to beg and plead for new production time slots because of the delays in all the KS (especially as they didn't really know when anything would be done to use them and paying several cancelation fees would have been too painful) the Chinese factories just didn't give them any

I'm pretty sure this will get done (but less so when especially as I'm fairly sure that since it's resin this is going to be via Archon/Prodos who have their own too much to do, too little capacity issues)

**JohnHwangDD**

If I were Paizo, I'd run the KS, and subcontract to SPM, but that's not what is happening.

**JohnHwangDD**

Refund received! I'm out.
____

Actually, SPM even shorted me on the refund.

**ced1106**

According to the Reaper KS forums, Paizo offered the license first to Reaper and Wizkids. So, I'm guessing, that these metal mini's are a marketing tactic to time with the release of the Starfinder game. The miniatures, of course, should also hit retail, if you don't want the entire set.

Starfinder pawns are and bases will be available. As a GM, I think pawns would be better than mini's, since I prefer to have a large assortment of figures (miniatures, pawns, tokens) to draw from when gaming. Even after the mini's are delivered, that won't be enough to run a Starfinder game, unless you mix the mini's with dice, pawns, etc.

**JohnHwangDD**

We're past mid-December, and SPM still doesn't have a single bit of actual production product to show. At this point, it's almost impossible for them to meet the April 15 delivery date that they had previously touted.

I wonder when SPM is going to inform the remaining backers of yet another delay, due to some issue with the Chinese factory. Namely, that Chinese factory wasn't about to delay some other customer when SPM wasn't ready to start production for window that they had previously reserved.

Heck, at this rate it's an open question whether SPM will be able to produce Wave 1 at all.

**JohnHwangDD**

Erik Mona, CCO wrote:Hi, everybody! I wanted to check in here with a quick update on the Worldscape Humble Bundle, and where we're at with delivery.

For starters, the four comics: Pathfinder Worldscape: Vampirella, Dejah Thoris, Re-Animator, and Swords of Sorrow, are completely finished and arrived at Paizo's warehouse last week. I'd be very surprised if the Worldscape comics that Adenai mentioned holding in hand were THESE Worldscape comics, since to my knowledge the only place these things exist in physical form are in the Paizo warehouse.

We have published a six-issue Pathfinder Worldscape series (the one that kicked off the whole idea) AND a previous set of four Pathfinder Worldscape One-Shots associated with a previous Humble Bundle (Tarzan, Warlord of Mars, Red Sonja, and Pathfinder Goblins), so there are at least 10 issues of "Pathfinder Worldscape" comics that Adenai may have had in hand, so I strongly suspect there's a bit of confusion here, since there shouldn't be any other way anyone can get these yet. Please, Adenai, let me know if in fact you somehow found copies of the new set in the wild.

We're currently waiting on Ninja Division, who is in production on the figures now. Orders for these guys exceeded ND's ability to produce with their normal supplier, so they had to find someone else to get them done. I am told to expect an exact delivery date from them on Tuesday of next week, and I will share it here with you guys once they have shared it with me. Apologies for the delay. This came as much of a surprise to us as it did to you, and we're working with Ninja Division to clear these minis as rapidly as possible.

I expect to get these figures relatively soon, in which case the plan will continue to be to hold the comics until the figures arrive, and send them together as soon as possible. Again, I'll let you guys know what's up as soon as I have the exact date myself, which should come next week.

As for someone already having the minis--that's certainly possible. Ninja Division did a small run for sale at Gen Con and through their website in August of last year, so there are probably about 100 of each figure floating around in the wild from this original production run. I suspect that the Black Friday bundle mentioned above was them burning off the 10s of copies they had left of the four models, far short of the thousands needed to fulfill this Humble Bundle effort.

I should note that the Humble Bundle comes with a FIFTH bonus figure of the Starfinder Envoy Navasi, which has never been released anywhere.

Thanks again for your patience with these. As the author of three of the four comics, I'm super eager to get these out to people so you can read them and let me know what you think. I'm also excited about the quality of the Worldscape figures, and hope that you agree they are awesome when you get them.

I'll be better able to tell you when that is next week.

Thanks.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uz1g?Worldscape-humble-bundle-not-shipped

I particularly liked this bit: "We're currently waiting on Ninja Division, who is in production on the figures now. Orders for these guys exceeded ND's ability to produce with their normal supplier, so they had to find someone else to get them done."

That's the exact same BS that ND has been feeding SDE Legends backers for months. ND is obviously completely out of money, and will be gone soon enough.

**DaveC**

And the lore updates continue with no word on production at all,

You know you are being trolled by a project creator when this is the quality of artwork they are prepared to publically release

But actually that’s quite representative of where SPM is right now.

**highlord tamburlaine**

Weirdest part of all their updates the other day was the mention that they've got Relic Knights supposedly in production.

Yet didn't SDE fund far before it?

I'll say this- hopefully all these "masterclass" figures they've been releasing are helping get funds back into the company and into getting this thing fulfilled.

I'd love to get my Relic Knights stuff, and I'd still probably consider picking up the SDE stuff when it eventually finds its way into retail, especially if they've made the rules a bit more accessible.

I don't really bother reading the updates any more...

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

If legends is indeed still in development it may well be simply because it's too much of a hassle to get the minis made and then have them hanging about for months (years?) until they've got a rule set to print

it seems typical to try and coordinate the finishing of plastic production with that of the printed material so they both arrive at wherever assembly's happening at about the same time

but even if that's true (and it might not be, it could be the Legends money ran out and now they need to fund that from sales, after all they 'should' be keeping funds from each KS separate) it's not a smart move from a PR point of view

**JohnHwangDD**

Holy crap, SPM really doesn't give a feth any more.

**Sarouan**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Holy crap, SPM really doesn't give a feth any more.

Convenient to only show the WIP arts from the update instead of the others :

#dishonesty

**JohnHwangDD**

It's what SPM showed, and they deemed it "good enough" for the SDEL backers.

#truth

**Ctaylor**

Is it final art or concept art?

If it's concept art, then it's fine. You often do very rough sketches to start and then develop it from there.

**Sarouan**

Ctaylor wrote:
Is it final art or concept art?

If it's concept art, then it's fine. You often do very rough sketches to start and then develop it from there.

It's concept art for future developments of areas not covered by the Kickstarter. There's the usual ranting when these "background updates" appear and of course John's preemptive bashing of SPM. It's been clear for quite a few months we won't have anything about the production unless they are sure the dates will be fulfilled, given how much they were burnt because of previous delays.