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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I'm mainly not backing this one as I've no money to spare at the moment (and won't during the PM period either),

but I also don't think the value is quite as good (especially if you don't want the re-do of the core box), and resculpts are never as exciting as original material

but I think it will end up about the same as FK if not better

 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




London

I've said this before, but I think the problem is that a lot of people are made to choose between:

1) New Base Game: Re-sculpts of models they already have and may have already painted, but with printed revised rules and new tiles, more dice etc.
2) Warbands: Limited set of monsters that don't fit with any 'theme' they already have in abundance (Dragon, Rock/Fire, Undead, Forest), when they probably have too much of this content anyway.

But then I need to balance this against the fact that the $150 pledge is equivalent to...two level boxes in the UK. And comes with all of those adorable pets.

I think the greatest crime of the boss pack is that it makes me think of Darksiders rather than Zelda, honestly.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






The thing is, people want mountains of freebies and stretches and don't want to pay for them. They want to be the one who does the core pledge only while 'someone else' buys the close to retail paid add-ons to cover the loss.

The force bundling of the midnight tower and warbands which are effectively paid add-ons at close to retail price are there to cover the costs. Without them, they get into a situation where people pledge 100$ for a deep discount and then get 100$ of content with no money to fund it.

The argument is the forced bundling potentially drives people away. But if it is successful, I think we will see more of it as logistics have become a costly nightmare as well as extending the schedule by months sometimes. Now China can pre-pack everything and there is no need to hunt down 13-20 individual units to pack each order.

Personally, this works for me because I am usually all-in for stuff I like to back, and it forces others to pony up. But I will be interested to see if forced bundling and big-box pledging is going to be a success and the trend of 2016 KS.

My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA." 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




London

I suspect my complaints are because I'm finally running out of space to store all the boardgames that I've "maximised"! Something like Zombicide is no joke, even with just the 5 "core boxes", but the contents of the S3 Kickstarter alone...

But I absolutely agree that the forced bundling is a good way for them to save money, and at least they gave 3 options. Ninja All-Stars, with its "Choose 2 or 4 or these 6 different teams" approach must be a nightmare for them in that regard.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

When a project pulls $700k+, $1M+, CMoN and SPM don't lose any money on core pledges. They would probably be more profitable selling 10,000x $100 core pledges with ZERO adds than 5,000 pledges of $100+$100 adds out of a $400 option list.

In the case of SDE:L, SPM is trying to have their cake and eat it, too, with a more expensive core pledge that contains roughly the same amount of content as the FK:pledge. It's yet at the point that it's obvious that the bundled content is high enough to offset the inflexibility.

As for NAS, SPM's campaign didn't go the way they wanted, but that's mostly their fault for trying to force backers to do things their way, vs the way that backers wanted. Backer revolt caused SPM to completely restructure the pledges and make the Clan picks more flexible.

In SDE:L, it doesn't look like there's the same type of issue because the "take it or leave it" offer suggests that complaint and negotiation is largely fruitless. Less than half of the FK backers are backing Legends, and the Boss set take only has a 1/3 take rate, with only a <10% "wait-and-see". If SPM was hoping SDE:L would surpass FK like Zombicide consistently surpasses previous season, that's not really happening.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Schmapdi wrote:
Honestly - I'd guess a good chunk of them (like me) simply are currently overflowing with SDE minis already and not keen on the idea of getting what is likely to be 150+ more by campaign's end.

They're simply going too fast - faster than even the most hardcore fans can begin to exhaust the content.

I will likely end up pledging, just because the deal is too good to pass on. But I don't have near the excitement level I did for TFK.

Plus I don't think TFK was such a short campaign either? That will likely knock the subscriber numbers down too. I have to say though, whether it leads to extra freebies or not. I am a big fan of the "simplified" campaigns.


Its probably worth mentioning again that this KS fulfills in more than a year... With the SDE release calendar apparently empty after the currently in pre-order Warbands, I imagine that gives people a whole year to feel starved for content.

Feast or famine?

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in ie
Fixture of Dakka






Deke mentioned they have 3 years worth of SDE releases planned out. There will probably be a few non KS releases next year like Beatrix and Jack
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Won't SPM be pushing out the NAS and RK2 stuff as well?

   
Made in us
Serious Squig Herder






NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Schmapdi wrote:
Honestly - I'd guess a good chunk of them (like me) simply are currently overflowing with SDE minis already and not keen on the idea of getting what is likely to be 150+ more by campaign's end.

They're simply going too fast - faster than even the most hardcore fans can begin to exhaust the content.

I will likely end up pledging, just because the deal is too good to pass on. But I don't have near the excitement level I did for TFK.

Plus I don't think TFK was such a short campaign either? That will likely knock the subscriber numbers down too. I have to say though, whether it leads to extra freebies or not. I am a big fan of the "simplified" campaigns.


Its probably worth mentioning again that this KS fulfills in more than a year... With the SDE release calendar apparently empty after the currently in pre-order Warbands, I imagine that gives people a whole year to feel starved for content.

Feast or famine?


True - but I would have to paint like a fiend to even come close to finishing everything from TFK by then, and everyone who has "everything" thus far has reached the point where they could effectively play 3 games a day of SDE and never play the same game twice if they didn't want to. There are sooo many boss/mini boss/spawns/tiles/heros/creeps combos already. Plus SDE just released a new boss and hero for Halloween and hinted at having some releases next year as well.

It's just starting to feel like they are milking it imo. it's been only 3 months since I got box 2 of my huge TFK pledge! I quite liked the "one level box and a few misc heroes/mini bosses" a year pattern they had previously. They have such a huge base of product now they don't need to grow it by 200 minis at a time.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

You're flush with TFK stuff right now, but how will you feel in December, 2016? 13 months from now, assuming no delays? Will you still be sated, or will you want more at that point?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Houston, TX

nkelsch wrote:
The thing is, people want mountains of freebies and stretches and don't want to pay for them. They want to be the one who does the core pledge only while 'someone else' buys the close to retail paid add-ons to cover the loss.

The force bundling of the midnight tower and warbands which are effectively paid add-ons at close to retail price are there to cover the costs. Without them, they get into a situation where people pledge 100$ for a deep discount and then get 100$ of content with no money to fund it.

The argument is the forced bundling potentially drives people away. But if it is successful, I think we will see more of it as logistics have become a costly nightmare as well as extending the schedule by months sometimes. Now China can pre-pack everything and there is no need to hunt down 13-20 individual units to pack each order.

Personally, this works for me because I am usually all-in for stuff I like to back, and it forces others to pony up. But I will be interested to see if forced bundling and big-box pledging is going to be a success and the trend of 2016 KS.


SO much this. Plus with a guaranteed near million in funding, why would bigger campaigns or companies want dick around with a bunch of irritating à la carte pricing/packing/shipping?
   
Made in us
Serious Squig Herder






 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You're flush with TFK stuff right now, but how will you feel in December, 2016? 13 months from now, assuming no delays? Will you still be sated, or will you want more at that point?


I guarantee I will be sated. I am assuming most SDE fans also collect or play at least 1-2 other games on the side as well. How will you feel if they launch SDE Kickstarter #3 in March of 2017?

I mean, I suppose if SDE were my only game, and only hobby. Then sure.

But geesh, I'm REALLY glad I didn't pledge for NAS now. I would have liked too - but had just gotten too much SDE stuff. But I imagine there is a fairly high crossover. How does SPM expect people to keep up?
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

nkelsch wrote:
The thing is, people want mountains of freebies and stretches and don't want to pay for them.

I don't. I just want 2.0 and Legends for something in between $60 and $150...

Adding the extra stuff and pricing the 'core' pledges at $150 has me really thinking hard about whether I want to put that much money into a game I've never played.

Freebies are nice, but not somethign that I consider when deciding to pledge.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 insaniak wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
The thing is, people want mountains of freebies and stretches and don't want to pay for them.

I don't. I just want 2.0 and Legends for something in between $60 and $150...

Adding the extra stuff and pricing the 'core' pledges at $150 has me really thinking hard about whether I want to put that much money into a game I've never played.

Freebies are nice, but not something that I consider when deciding to pledge.


Would you pay 120$ for legends and Core 2.0 with no stretch goals? Because that is what it would effectively be without bundles. (and that would basically be MSRP -20%)

Some people want a 100$ pledge point for legends and Core 2.0 with all the stretches, and I suspect the revenue lost from removing forced bundling would not be covered by new pledges, especially if the stretches were there.

Honestly tho, apart from the piles of stretches giving value, there is no reason not to wait for retail for those who are not aware of the game.

150$ now = 60$ + 60$ + 50$ later when you consider internet discounters. So I think 20$ is worth paying later is you are unsure.

My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





@Schmapdi, I think, for me... I just come from a player-base that loves games approaching infinite value. I like procedural games, for example, just because I like the idea of never being able to exhaust content.

So if I get into a game I am always of a "the more the merrier" school. If we like TFK + Von Drakk, then I know i'll got back and hunt down every single release to date, and will still happily get my KS pledge for this, etc...

As i've said, my only personal wish is some kind of random dungeon generator for Legends, but I believe someone said they outright shot that idea down?

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

TBH, a truly random dungeon isn't necessarily ideal if the games already run long. At least a fixed dungeon has a clear end point.

   
Made in us
Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran





California the Southern

I think for a randomized dungeon, it should be based on x number of spawns and y number of tiles.

I still wish there was a random building factor like in Warhammer Quest. Maybe some sort of random objective I need to accomplish as well.

Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/627383.page#7436324.html
Watch and listen to me ramble about these minis before ruining them with paint!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmCB2mWIxhYF8Q36d2Am_2A 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I think for a randomized dungeon, it should be based on x number of spawns and y number of tiles.

I still wish there was a random building factor like in Warhammer Quest. Maybe some sort of random objective I need to accomplish as well.


This is exactly what I would want.

Again, don't make it mandatory, and let people have their pre-baked adventures/campaigns, etc... But as it stands, "Legends" is just a cardboard + paper toolbox of ways to make SDE take longer/become more complex, optionally.

In my case, I am ALL for that. Give me all the clunk and crunch in a big, fat, unwieldy randomized, campaign system. I would love a game with this aesthetic, and the kind of meat that still lets Warhammer Quest make for an unexpected evening (sometimes too easy, sometimes brutally unfair... but always a new experience).

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in us
Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran





California the Southern

I wonder if it's worth pushing for an idea like this in the comments.

They picked up on the whole spider thing, which I personally thought was the typical cheesy comment injoke nonsense, and turned it into a stretch goal.

Maybe if there's enough demand/ pressure from backers, we can see a randomized dungeon romp included with Legends. Seems like it wouldn't require that much effort or energy on their part, would it?

Just a thought.

Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/627383.page#7436324.html
Watch and listen to me ramble about these minis before ruining them with paint!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmCB2mWIxhYF8Q36d2Am_2A 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

The spider thing was easy, because it was just running the existing model with a different color and packing in an extra card. Basically "free" to SPM, compared to sculpting and producing a new model from scratch.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






What is the random thing you guys want? The game set up is already pretty arbitrary. You pick number of heroes, set up that many tiles, pick that many spawns and play a game.

How hard is it to simply 'randomize' those choices? Now we need 'cards' to tell us what random 'card' to play?

Randomize heroes: put all available hero cards in a deck and randomly pull x number

Randomize monsters: put all available monster spawns in a deck and randomly pull x number spawns.

Is there something more I am missing?

My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA." 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

If you've ever played a Roguelike, I think that's the concept.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After the 2nd Spider, we're getting a MLP homage?



Really? I had no idea this was where the campaign was going.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/04 23:07:59


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





So, the idea of a procedural dungeon generator calls to mind more than "which tiles will you build from". Games like WHQ would have massive encounter tables that could be far more than what enemies spawn, and which might include traps, hidden treasures, etc...

Essentially its a perfect fit for what it SOUNDS like they want Legends to be. As it stands it is... kind of a campaign system, and kind of a "baby's first pnp RPG"... Problem is, they haven't built it yet, so even they can't tell us what they're really shooting for.

But hey... if you're gonna have progression, and mid-adventure visits to town/shops... you might as well go all the way and add town-encounter tables, a dungeon randomizer, etc... and massively bulk out the game's longevity for a certain part of the gaming community.

I'm all for voicing that with you Highlord. I think as long as it is said that it is a perfect extension of the game, and adds massive (read: infinite" content) it could also be sold to backers as a huge get, and value extender to the Legends portion of this KS.

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in ie
Fixture of Dakka






 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If you've ever played a Roguelike, I think that's the concept.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After the 2nd Spider, we're getting a MLP homage?

Really? I had no idea this was where the campaign was going.


I'm surprised they havent done it before I know from talking to Tom at Impact! That the chibi pony stuff out sells all their other chibi stuff by some margin people can't get enough of it I don't get it myself but there's a big market for it.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think my girlfriend just exploded at the sight of that silly MLP flying unicorn. She loves that sort of nonsense. They've pretty much nailed the super cutesy stuff with the pets on this one and that thing will probably tip a fair few people over the edge. Not to everyones taste but very smart move as a lot of people go mental for that stuff
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

@Dave - I had no clue there was such an overlap, nor big profit there, but hey, if it works, it works. Can't fault SPM for cashing in where the cash is.
____

@NewTruth - I thought Legends addresses the 1E concept of retaining Loot / Treasure between games as Heroes gain experience. A Roguelike dungeon maker is a different thing altogether, and I think nkelsh has the bits for randomly populating each space. The trick is having something that scales well for 6x6 rooms vs 4x8 hallways vs 12x12 tiles, along with the business of specifying whether the next space is room / tile / hallway / closed.


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





See, i'm not sure if any of us are right, mostly as SPM hasn't given us a ton of concrete info. For instance, I thought before the KS they said they would outright not be having loot persist between adventures, because they were going with some sort of "disenchant" concept?

Again... hard to get solid info on a rather ephemeral, concept they had only sort of figured out themselves. :-p

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Holding Loot and esp. Treasure between adventures is too strong in many cases, which is why they make players disenchant stuff. But the idea of collecting stuff that makes better stuff is still there.

   
Made in us
Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran





California the Southern

I've tried posting stuff in the comments... a few times now.

Every time it seems to get lost in the shuffle of in jokes and complaining.

As it stands they totally could gear this up to be that type of roguelike crawl I have wanted for some time.

Hell, if you own all the expansions, you've got a heck of a bestiary to work from already.

Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/627383.page#7436324.html
Watch and listen to me ramble about these minis before ruining them with paint!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmCB2mWIxhYF8Q36d2Am_2A 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I've tried posting stuff in the comments... a few times now.

Every time it seems to get lost in the shuffle of in jokes and complaining.

As it stands they totally could gear this up to be that type of roguelike crawl I have wanted for some time.

Hell, if you own all the expansions, you've got a heck of a bestiary to work from already.


From my experience SPM only responds if they like you or you ask the same thing 10 times in rapid succession.

"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" 
   
 
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