Gonna give the show a 6/10. Fantastic production values, good performances for the most part, absolutely atrocious writing. People who say the finale make the rest of the show worth it are huffing glue. I will probably give s2 a go when it airs, but I won't be anxiously anticipating it.
creeping-deth87 wrote: Gonna give the show a 6/10. Fantastic production values, good performances for the most part, absolutely atrocious writing. People who say the finale make the rest of the show worth it are huffing glue. I will probably give s2 a go when it airs, but I won't be anxiously anticipating it.
I feel about the same. I liked some of the twists, like some of the performances and I'm no Tolkien scholar so they'd have to really try to do something that bothers me.
Won't watch S1 again, will watch S2 when in comes out, but in a 'if I've nothing better to do at 10pm' sort of way.
Views of the show aside, it's rekindled my interest in Middle Earth. Our gaming group has got back into playing MESBG something fierce and it's motivated me to get a lot more work done on my models and to get an army finished that isn't just the nine Nazgul.
CptJake wrote: Wife and I enjoyed it. Not a perfect show, but entertaining enough. Wish they had better lit some of the night time battle scenes.
Semi related, the wife and I started watching The Sinner, and in the 4th season (we realized after first episode we needed to back to season 1), there's a set of night time scenes. . . To my outside the industry, but with friends inside the industry knowledge, there's spots where they obviously filmed in daylight, but used a HEAVY dose of blue filtering to make it look like a dark, semi-overcast night (there's some walking in the scene, so the POTUS from ID4 needed to see where he's walking)
Makes me wonder why more shows can't do something like that, so that the audience goes "ohh, its night time" but the audience can still see whatever action is going on.
Trivial question, where did Galadrial get her armor from?
She shed the ceremonial armor before she jumped ship, but then has a suit when the Numinor go to Middle Earth. And it looks different from everyone else's armor so it doesn't look like a spare suit.
Related, I don't like how she's shorter than the humans.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Trivial question, where did Galadrial get her armor from?
She shed the ceremonial armor before she jumped ship, but then has a suit when the Numinor go to Middle Earth. And it looks different from everyone else's armor so it doesn't look like a spare suit.
Related, I don't like how she's shorter than the humans.
They probably had some in store in the lost library of the elves. yeah she is cute but a bit short for the charaacter
I think Elves and Numenoreans were both around 6' 5" average height for males, 6' for female Elves, so Galadriel being shorter isn't outrageous, even if the gap is a little bigger than it should be.
Elendil can be excused as being taller, but she should still at least be tall as or taller than most of the Numenoreans. Elendil has a canon height of 7'11", Galadrial is 6'4".
So yeah, she should be much shorter than Elendil, but she definitely shouldn't be shorter than most of the Numenoreans. And he of course should be towering over everyone by at least a foot.
Grey Templar wrote: Elendil can be excused as being taller, but she should still at least be tall as or taller than most of the Numenoreans. Elendil has a canon height of 7'11", Galadrial is 6'4".
So yeah, she should be much shorter than Elendil, but she definitely shouldn't be shorter than most of the Numenoreans. And he of course should be towering over everyone by at least a foot.
I'm not so worried about canon heights (seven feet, eleven inches?!) as just aesthetics. It's a visual medium after all. My image of elves is just taller than humans, and since LotR made an art out of shooting people to look like they're very different heights it is not impossible to make 5'3" Morfydd Clark look taller than everyone else. Not a giant, but just an inch or two taller than whoever she's standing next to.
Grey Templar wrote: Elendil can be excused as being taller, but she should still at least be tall as or taller than most of the Numenoreans. Elendil has a canon height of 7'11", Galadrial is 6'4".
So yeah, she should be much shorter than Elendil, but she definitely shouldn't be shorter than most of the Numenoreans. And he of course should be towering over everyone by at least a foot.
I'm not so worried about canon heights (seven feet, eleven inches?!) as just aesthetics. It's a visual medium after all. My image of elves is just taller than humans, and since LotR made an art out of shooting people to look like they're very different heights it is not impossible to make 5'3" Morfydd Clark look taller than everyone else. Not a giant, but just an inch or two taller than whoever she's standing next to.
.
Good point and they are already doing lots of it for the not-hobbit nonsense
Grey Templar wrote: Elendil can be excused as being taller, but she should still at least be tall as or taller than most of the Numenoreans. Elendil has a canon height of 7'11", Galadrial is 6'4".
Again, like with the vast majority of Tolkein's work, it differs. Tolkein says he is 7'11" and 7'.
Because so much of Tolkein's work was unfinished and he spent a lot of time rewriting things as it suited him, "canon" is a tricky subject.
Thingol is meant to be the tallest elf according to the Unfinished Tales at nearly 9ft.
As with most adaptions, I'm glad they didn't bother with this. It would look fething daft on screen. It's a hold over from the Old English sagas he takes a lot from. People had gigantic stature because they were heroic figures or evil figures, depending.
Having finally caught up with the show. I was reasonably happy with it. At the core, it's an adaption of Tolkein's work which hopefully as it advances, improves over time. There were a lot of things I liked about it. And a fair few things I didn't. I think the bottom line is that this is a show that was trying to get the biggest audience and lots of views. That means the writing has to try and aim for the lowest denominator. Yet bizarrely, even the marketing for the show seemed slim on the ground.
I'll certainly watch the next season, but I hope for a lot of things to be tightened up.
Olthannon wrote: As with most adaptions, I'm glad they didn't bother with this. It would look fething daft on screen. It's a hold over from the Old English sagas he takes a lot from. People had gigantic stature because they were heroic figures or evil figures, depending.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: .... since LotR made an art out of shooting people to look like they're very different heights it is not impossible to make 5'3" Morfydd Clark look taller than everyone else. Not a giant, but just an inch or two taller than whoever she's standing next to.
Owain Arthur's Height 5ft 8 (172.7 cm)
Welsh actor, best known for playing Prince Durin IV in The Rings of Power. At drama college, he listed himself as "Height: 5'10".
Had to rewatch the last episode a couple of times to organize my thoughts about it. I think my initial reaction was worse, and upon re-watching I've been more forgiving.
That said, I think at the end of the day the episode was midling overall and didn't really stick the landing like they needed to. But it doesn't ruin the series for me and it's not going to prevent me from watching it again at some point in the future, listening to the soundtrack while reading through the hobbit or the Silmarillion again, or watching its second season in some unknown future year because apparently they really did wait to see if interest was high enough in the first season before going to work proper on the second.
Observations, broken down by storyline because I think it worked out pretty good. I'm going to appologize in advance for the length, I've basically been adding to this over and over for the past couple of weeks while I was getting over this cough.
Tying up loose ends in Numenor
Spoiler:
-Ken Blackburn gets a great moment where, as the King lays on his deathbed being sketched by Isildur's sister, he begins speaking with her with an almost scary lucidity about the coming doom. He misidentifies her as Miriel, and I'm not entirely sure him saying she (Isildur's sister) is not queen *yet* is entirely a case of mistaken identity and not some hint that she may have some part to play with Ar-Pharazon usurping the throne.
-Since she's had access to the Palantir, perhaps she'll be some kind of Cassandra figure?
-The Queen is in the hold of the ship counting steps, Elendil corrects her and says its *nine* steps to the main post - at first I thought her plan was to pretend not to be blind.
-Elendil's regret for his part in how things played out is much more gracefully presented here. The scene in last episode where he turns and tells the camera the same thing is even more unnecessary than it first appeared.
-They arrive in Numenor to find the black banners flying, signifying the king died offscreen while they were away. Elendil, who affirmed he'd stay with her and help her in the previous shot immediately lets go of her and steps foreward dramatically while she asks confused what happened and why he let her go.
-We close out on Numenor with a shot of Pharazon standing over the king's deathbed, ready to step foreward and be a much bigger problem in later seasons.
The increasingly compelling adventures of Meteor Man and his Hobbit friends
Spoiler:
-Meteor Man is pursued by the three witches, their leader employing a shapeshifting magic that I'm actually OK with. They didn't really have any reason to use it any of the other times we saw them, and I think it supports my theory on what their nature is, more on that further down.*
-They've correctly deduced that he'd be drawn to the image of Nori because earlier she sprang to their defense (and their leader plucked some hair or an ornament from her head continuing her theme of casting spells based on things she must first touch) and while the bit where her eyes are the first thing to change, having the brass section loudly fart out a scare chord when it happens felt pandering and sucked the menace out of the scene.
-Also I believe that's the exact shot from the promos people were circling around and saying 'that's Sauron!'
-I groaned aloud when they announced that Meteor Man is Sauron and they're here to serve him. It's legit something I suspected from the moment he appeared in that crater, but by announcing it in the cold open they basically guaranteed he wasn't.
-That said, the show has been playing with biblical imagery throughout its run so far and the reveal that we have three wise women chasing falling stars to find their spiritual sovereign (who looks and acts like a thoroughly hemped up Jesus) is something I'm very much here for.
-They tell him they want to take him back east to Rhun, that a 'veil' has been placed upon him, cutting him off from his power.
-And even though we're jaded enough to know he's not really Sauron, I wonder if they're not actually wrong about the other things? He's clearly confused as to why he's here, but maybe he really has been cut off from his abilities for some reason related to his quest? At the very least, they knew he would come looking for that constellation, even if they didn't know who he actually was.
-Meteor Man has a sad, throws wind around, and they knock him out through more magic.*
-I actually like the little action sequence that follows, the hobbits fight in hobbity ways, sneaking around, making noise, throwing rocks and distracting while others sneak around and accomplish objectives, and in turn the witches use the tools we've been seeing them employ all this season, and the main one using her shapeshifting power to trick them into trying to rescue *her* is good fun menacing.
-The wizarding duel is a little too ostentatious to be authentic to anything Tolkien would wright, but it they're very deliberately invoking imagery from the movies here, which also has that problem. The short-haired witch again proves she's the most magically adept, capable of standing up to Meteor Man to some extent.*
-"Get away from me, or I will hurt you again." - I love the delivery of this line. Meteor Man believes he's Sauron and the only thing he can think to do is warn Nori to stay away so she won't get hurt, paying off a consistent unselfish quality that has been his throughline all season.
-And Nori, for her part knows she has no idea what the big picture in all this is and doesn't care, she's there to help her friend (and maybe save all her other friends who's she's inadvertently put in danger to save said friend) and cuts through all the doom and portent by being an earnest, uncomplicatedly good person.
-The witches realize their mistake, say he's not Sauron, that he's 'the other', 'the Istar', and Meteor Man declares 'I'm good!' and all of that feels added in post and is painfully awkward.
-When he banishes them, the three witches are shown in alternate forms (true forms?), all corpses in what appear to be different stages of decay, then they explode into moths and fly away.*
-*So... what exactly are the three witches? The first, loudest, and angriest voices cried out 'Ringwraiths?!' in performative outrage, but that's probably not the case, since the rings don't exist and the plot has made it clear that Sauron still hasn't figured out the recipe. Another potential option is that they are just ghosts, three generations of queens or mystics from Rhun all dedicated to serving Sauron - and while certainly possible as Tolkien allows for all manner of crazy ghosts in his setting, they also seem incredibly powerful, with the short haired one demonstrating mastery over fire and shape-changing stuff. I think by process of elimination they are supposed to be some kind of Miar, the same sorts of people as Gandalf, Sauron, the Balrogs, etc. many of which were turned to Morgoth and Sauron's service?
-RIP Sadoc, you defied every crotchety old hobbit authority figure trope you were supposed to embody and we didn't deserve you.
-Later, Nori and Meteor Man discuss what he's remembered, more's come back to him but he understands now that he needs to go to Rhun to seek his answers.
-And, naturally, we get confirmation that he's one of the Wizards as he explains the meaning of the word Istar.
-And, naturally, he's Gandalf, right? Of course he's Gandalf!
-The Harfoots get ready to leave, Nori's family know she wants to stay with Meteor Man, and offer her her pack and well wishes. Her goodbye with Poppy was very sweet and I wish she'd gone with them - yes it would be way too Samwise Gamgee, but I don't care.
-The hobbit/Meteor Man arc closes off with wise words for the ages: "When in doubt, Elanor Brandyfoot: always remember that I am Gandalf. That's me. I'm definitely Gandalf- do you think the folks at home have figured out I'm Gandalf? Oh I hope so!"
Galadriel, Halbrand, et all.
Spoiler:
-"The Sun began as something no bigger than the palm of my hand." Celeborn tries to tell Elrond that the Sun is a fruit from one of the two trees and bumps his head hard against the invisible wall of Silmarillion lore they're not allowed to talk about.
-Galadriel arrives and says they'd been riding six days without rest to get from the western edge of Mordor to west of the Misty Mountains. A figure I thought was completely silly but upon mathing it out... she probably could bypass the mountain ranges and take time off to sleep and still get there in under a week by horseback.
-Did they mention Halbrand had been hit by a lance in the previous episode? You'd think him having gone off and been the only one apparently attacked by orcs after the erruption would have raised more eyebrows.
-"And when I surfaced, all I could do was swim, and pray I had chosen wisely." - Galadriel and the showrunners acknowledging she went kinda crazy there.
-Halbrand discusses his past with Celebrimbor while tap dancing around the specifics "The Master I apprenticed to used to speak of the wonders of your craft.", "Nothing like your artistry.", "Where I came from...", "I've seen a trace of nickel added to iron..." and they all come rapidly one after another like an entire season's worth of suspicious dialogue all crammed into one conversation.
-In fact, this is probably the single biggest problem with this episode and its place in the series: After the Numenoreans decided to go to Middle Earth we had an entire extra episode where they decided to go to Middle Earth - this scene, this interaction with Halbrand and Celebrimbor is a point of similar significance: a point in which the destiny of the world changes, and it's been reduced to a *very rapid* back and forth quip fest because they simply don't have the runtime for them to interact and build a relationship. If this episode had been feature length (as had been rumored) or the extra Numenorean stuff hadn't happened and all the previous Galadriel events had been bumped up an episode then we probably would have been able to spend a good 30-45 minutes to build a rapport these two characters, give Celebrimbor time to open up to what he would assume is the secret wisdom of Iluvatar's impulsive second born children, and let the problems and their solution come up more gradually and organically.
-I love when they're discussing the size and shape of the object Galadriel asks if it can be a sword.
-The tree and the leaves being blighted is being treated less like an omen as the series goes on and more and more like the naked and unwelcome ticking clock added by the writers to up the sense of urgency that it is. It's annoying to see Gil-galad delivering most of these doomy portents too because when he isn't he's clearly playing the wise rational king he's supposed to be, not liking the idea of imbuing one person with the power to save the elves, even himself.
-Celebrimbor making the hard sell, and Galadriel subsequently confronting him about it is some great acting on the parts of Edwards and Clark, but its undercut by what I mentioned before about the problems of having Halbrand having arrived in Eregion all of 15 real time minutes ago.
-"Someone like me... Here... Working with the Elven smiths of Eregion. Thank you, Galadriel." You can hear the red alert siren going off in her head.
-"I'll never forget that. And I'll see to it that no one else does either." There's a little musical stinger here meant to make you feel uneasy, I think it's actually the first few notes of Sauron's big silly brass theme from LOTR.
-There's a mishap in the forge and Galadriel gets another scene where she's reminded of stuff she'd found while searching for Sauron. It's a reasonably good scene (that again feels rushed for being in the same episode as all these other ones) but I did notice two assistant elves adjusting beakers in the background instead of like, pulling shards of those beakers out of their bodies after that explosion which made me chuckle.
-This does lead into Galadriel confronting Halbrand on the very specific strange behaviour she's seen from him this epis- no wait, information about the Southlands' king she had one of the scribes dredge up.
-And for what its worth it's a good confrontation scene, she's already put the pieces together because of the stuff he's gotten up to since coming here, but she's clearly afraid of the answer. I'm not entirely sure why she choses to confront him at this point, she didn't chose the time or place, he came to her, could it be that she couldn't hold it in and wait until they were in a more crowded place with elven guards or something?
-"I have been awake since before the breaking of the first silence. In that time I have had many names." -Sauron legit hates the name Sauron, and I hope at some point we cover that the elves came up with it to make fun of his real name: Mairon.
-Sauron begins talking to her in visions, first as her brother in Valinor, then later as Halbrand. He gives her a very broad explanation as to what his intentions are, that he wants to fix the damage he's done to Middle-Earth, that he wants Galadriel to guide him as his queen, that she's his only hope for redemption and she must help him.
-In the past few weeks since this episode has aired, a lot of people are arguing that he's being honest here, and that Galadriel doomed Sauron and Middle-Earth because she couldn't let go of her hate. This is a bad take, and I'm going to outline why further down, but for the sake of argument here let me sum it up as: He's lying, she knows it, he bails.
-The visions close out with that scene of her drowning in the ocean, tangled up in debris, while explosions (thunder and lightning? war itself?) rage above the surface of the water, she's pulled out of it by Elrond, and I love that when he tells her the work is almost completed she runs into Celebrimbor's forge still gripping that knife and ready to go.
-She tells them Halbrand has left, and that he is dangerous and not to be trusted, but not exactly why- and when confronted on that part by Elrond she makes it clear she expects she'll get banished or something if the real reason comes out and she's probably right about that much.
-Celebrimbor is obviously upset but willing to stop the project based on her words, but she gives him an out: Halbrand's first choice was one thing (to rule them all) and his second choice was two, she sees how either option could sow division but if they dilute the power down to three beings that seek consensus or at least check each others balances they may be able to harness the power without playing into Sauron's plans.
-And while it is a bit of an ass-pull, Celebrimbor saying he needs gold and silver from valinor in order to do it gives Galadriel the moment we've been waiting for all season since the introduction of this dagger, where she has to let it go literally in order to, at least to some extent, step away from the raw grief for her brother that powers her quest for revenge, and start to take steps towards healing into the person we see in LotR. The line about true creation requiring sacrifice finally shows up and its not nearly as menacing as it was made out to be.
-The actual sequence where they forge the rings is pretty well done. I have literally no idea how jewelry is created so how much of this is fantasy world stuff and how much of it is 'real' jewelcraft I have no idea but that kind of adds to the mystique.
-The rings themselves look good, and distinct: can you imagine the uproar if they had just re-used the lotr props?
-With the rings forged, we close out on Sauron, still in the form of Halbrand, descending into Mordor, and the credits close on the ominous leitmotif we've had at different points in the show expanded into a full song with lyrics. The song itself discordant and unpleasant, but I wouldn't necessarily say 'bad' - just deliberately discordant and unpleasant by design.
This is coming out way more rambly than I intended it to, but after rewatching it a couple of times I think I've settled on it being a disappointing conclusion to the first season, but only mildly so. The first season throws a lot of balls in the air and there's simply not enough time to take the plots where they were at the start of the episode and get them to the point where they are at the end in a satisfying manner in the length of a regular episode. An extra twenty minutes would have done wonders here, an entire extra episode would have been better, even cutting out one episode worth of the extended stay in Numenor and introducing Celebrimbor to Sauron an episode earlier would have helped make their rapport more believable.
As it stand for the show itself, I'm overall positive about it, despite the disappointing season finale. The show itself was gorgeous to watch despite the occasional failed experiment by what is clearly an inexperienced studio trying to experiment with billions of dollars on the line. I'd say the effects work is cinema quality but Marvel has lowered that bar quite a bit - its really saying something when you really sit down and compare the effects shots of a scene like Halbrand and Galadriel on the ocean as the ripples all suddenly die off, or Meteor Man confronting the witches as a raging fire dies out and its just embers and trees and night sky as far as the eye can see, and compare that to a more mature production like House of the Dragon - who's episode that same week featured a much more obviously CGI dragon smashing through a floor that turned instantly to smoke as obviously CGI people ran around a foggy, dimly lit room. The sheer bulk of that budget is constantly on display.
I do worry that they tried to dumb some things down in these past couple of episodes in order to accommodate the people who claim its too difficult to follow despite not paying attention. Things tend to get really bad really fast when studio types let their contempt for their viewers' intelligence dictate how the show gets made.
Sauron
Spoiler:
So. At about the halfway mark of this episode we get the big reveal that Halbrand is Sauron. We've had some clues (along with a number of red herrings) all through the show and he truthfully admits point for point that his helping Galadriel has served his interests. He also offers Galadriel a very specific bargain: He tells her he wants to repair the damage he's done to Middle Earth, that he needs her help to do so. He offers her a position of equal power, an equal share of his plans, if only she will ally herself with him they will accomplish great things together and change the world for the better. He tells her she's already helped him, literally saved his life, and that only she can truly direct him towards redemption.
Here's the thing: He's lying.
How do we know he's lying? Ignoring source material that says wanting to fix Middle Earth was a favourite lie of his that he maybe, just maybe believed once, very early on, ignoring the future lore knowledge that the bargain he's offering is by and large the same one he offers Saruman in the 3rd age, ignoring the ways he's been lying to her from the very start with no indication of reluctance or doubt. Look at the way he reacts when Galadriel finally catches him:
-His first choice is to appear to her in the form of her brother, Finrod.
-As Finrod, he tells her what she wants to hear, that he's happy she kept his dagger, acknowledging her courage, how difficult it's been for her fighting for so long, etc. and then he says she completed the task that he could not.
-Galadriel catches this, and calls him on it right away: Finrod's task was hunting Sauron. She has not completed it.
-Sauron, as Finrod, lies again: Saying Finrod's task was to ensure peace, and that he realized that's what Sauron wanted too.
-Galadriel catches him again: Finrod didn't realize anything, or have a change of heart, he died.
-Sauron continues, tells her she can heal middle earth, all she has to do is lie by omission, let the others complete the work - and if she's considering it at all he manages to sink the idea by slipping back into character as Finrod, reminding her again that he murdered her brother and is now dangling him like a puppet in front of her.
She rejects his offer, and the vision changes. He subsequently feeds her new excuses, and in turn, offers new rewards for her cooperation - instead of a vague promise of healing middle earth by not blabbing to her friends, now he *needs her help* to fix it - and when that doesn't work, no actually he needs her to be his partner in this, his queen!
It's a desperation play on his part, ever more extravagant promises he has no intention to keep, (plus an unhealthy sprinkling of 'I'm the only one who sees your worth' that cuts a little close to Kylo Renn's abusive boyfriend talk in TLJ) which in turn become threats as she continues to resist him.
He also lets slip at this point that he knows about the magic blight stuff and the elves diminishing, despite them making a point of having Celebrimbor not tell him about it. Which probably means he's had an active hand in that part too - with the ultimate goal of dominating Gil Galad and his people.
You make some excellent observations Captain Joystick, and I appreciate being able to go back and review some of those scenes in my head. I agree with a number of your assertions but overall i am not as generous as you are on my critique of the show‘s writing. I believe that I am lass satisfied with the show than you are but I also envy you being able to find as much enjoyment in it as you have.
Olthannon wrote: I think if they take on board some of the genuine criticism and work forward in the second season, then it can be a success.
Agreed - its not awful - however show makers sometimes double down on the things people don't like - see Discovery. Also its already being made isn't it so unless it did badly unlikely to chnage too much?
Honestly, the only way to salvage the show would be to completely redo it. They just broke too much of the lore and setting. Most major plot points happened incorrectly, out of order, or didn't happen at all.
Grey Templar wrote: Honestly, the only way to salvage the show would be to completely redo it. They just broke too much of the lore and setting. Most major plot points happened incorrectly, out of order, or didn't happen at all.
Unfortunately, with what they've said about most of the second season already being written, sunk cost fallacy and the amount of money mismanaged and blown all over the place, I really doubt they'd admit they fethed up and remake it from scratch and instead just double down on what their "vision" is. Gotta save face, or what little left there is of it.
regarding Sauron wanting to save/fix middle earth...
I think he was honest about this goal.... HOWEVER Galadriel was right to reject him.
I've always seen Sauron and Melkor as having an inherant differance one Tolkien himself noted IIRC, Melkor was, ultimately an insturment of chaos, he wanted to ruin, mar and wreck the great project of Illuvatar, he was, to borrow from D&D ultimately a force of chaotic evil. Sauron, however, desired control, and domination, he wished to order middle earth according to his desires.
So Sauron was correct, but obviously "help me repair things together" was an empty promise because he would have wished to control ehr as well, far from being a co-equal, galadriel would have simply ended up in shackles.
Indeed. I always saw that Sauron was the example of how strict Order can be Evil just as easily as it can be "Good". Sauron would be the same version of Order as the Emperor from Star Wars.
AegisGrimm wrote: Indeed. I always saw that Sauron was the example of how strict Order can be Evil just as easily as it can be "Good". Sauron would be the same version of Order as the Emperor from Star Wars.
I would only argue that the Emperor doesn’t actually want Order. He’s more of an agent of Chaos, actively encouraging infighting and such. Vader is your agent of Order.
AegisGrimm wrote: Indeed. I always saw that Sauron was the example of how strict Order can be Evil just as easily as it can be "Good". Sauron would be the same version of Order as the Emperor from Star Wars.
I would only argue that the Emperor doesn’t actually want Order. He’s more of an agent of Chaos, actively encouraging infighting and such. Vader is your agent of Order.
I’d actually argue that the Emperor is Neutral Evil; he doesn’t really care about order or chaos, so long as it brings him power. He employs both chaos and order to achieve his goals (inciting civil war and then imposing a fascist dictatorship.)
Not really, other than the most broad of strokes. Master and apprentice dynamic. But the Emperor and Vader are just people, magical people, but still just people. Morgoth is a primal elder evil and Sauron is a fallen angel.
One of the problems of using the D&D alignment chart system for characters outside of D&D settings is there's a certain outside influence factored in that doesn't exist within their respective settings. Sauron can't be said to be explicitly Lawful Evil because the broader concept of Good and Evil being parallel and competing concepts powered by their own planes of existence and the agents thereof doesn't exist in Tolkien's setting, likewise Chaos and Order are not separate but equally influencial concepts (powered by their own influence on the planes of existance or otherwise) because that dichotomy was pushed by Moorcock as a response or contrast to Tolkien.
In Tolkien's setting, Order is Good, as all of existence is ultimately a creation of a supreme authority god figure in Eru Iluvatar (referred to obliquely as The One, in the show), with contributions from his servants, of which the Valar are merely the most notable and powerful. The Valar (of which Morgoth is but one) frequently occupy the roles of pantheistic gods, creating/nurturing aspects of their own conceptual domains, arguing with each other, etc. but due to their relationship with The One, are eternally small 'g' gods in a setting that has a big 'G' God - and as such are not actually any more 'primal' or 'elder' than the other Maia, simply more powerful - as such it's not that much of a stretch to look at Morgoth and Sauron in a master and apprentice role, though Sauron as a Maiar who'd previously served under Aule certainly brought his own ideas and skills to the table.
(As to where Darth Vader and the Emperor line up on the D&D chart it gets even more complicated as the exact nature of their motives has changed drastically over time, starting all the way back in 1977 when the Emperor was originally envisioned as a political figurehead that had all his real power usurped by the Military Industrial Complex, personified by Tarkin and Darth Vader)
Speaking of appeals to authority...
Grey Templar wrote: Honestly, the only way to salvage the show would be to completely redo it. They just broke too much of the lore and setting. Most major plot points happened incorrectly, out of order, or didn't happen at all.
That's a commonly touted solution to most things people on the internet don't like, but at the end of the day if you truly find it as heinous as all that, you'll have to fall back on the tried and true method of many a fantasy fan all through the ages: ignore it, and move on with your life.
Thing is, Tolkien changed his own stories a lot, as the world evolved in his mind, up to and including changing the published version of the Hobbit to better align with LoTR.
So no problem if you don’t like the show because of writing/acting/directing, etc. but if your only complaint is that it’s “inconsistent” with previous material, then I think that’s a bit disingenuous, even without getting into arguments about what’s necessary to adapt a work for the screen.
Jadenim wrote: but if your only complaint is that it’s “inconsistent” with previous material, then I think that’s a bit disingenuous, even without getting into arguments about what’s necessary to adapt a work for the screen.
The original Author has the liberty to hem and haw over his own work. People who are adapting the work after the fact do not have that liberty. Especially if you do a bad job of it.
Completely changing a character's personality to be inconsistent with the source material is bad unless it actually improves it. If it is just change for the sake of change or actively harms the quality of the story, it is bad. That is what happened with Galadrial.
To give an example of changing a character in a way that is superior to the original material. House of the Dragon and King Viserys. In the books, the king is just old and obese and dies from that. In the show, he is suffering from some sort of flesh eating disease that is wracking him with pain and suffering and eventually kills him, and this adds a dimension to his character and allowed for some truly amazing scenes(in a heartbreaking way). GRRM himself says that this was an improvement over the original way he wrote it. Tolkien isn't around anymore, and his work is far and away superior, so changes need to be measured and careful and only if they objectively improve the material.
Turning Galadrial from a wise and farsighted individual with magical powers due to her being one of only 2 elves in Middle Earth to have seen the Two Trees into a petulant, arrogant, childishly demanding person does not improve her character or the story in any way. And no, she should not be "still learning and eventually becoming the wise person we later see in the LOTR". No, she was very much a full grown adult prior to the darkening of Valinor. And her described personality is very much the same as during the LOTR.
Again, the time spans here are important. Depending on which conversion for Valinorian Years to Solar Years you use(9.58 or 144) she is either 8323 years old OR nearly 27,000 years old. BTW, the latter conversion is more correct because that was what Tolkien later changed the conversion to, so it is the "newer" version of his canon.
But, even if we use the older conversion of 9.58 that still means that Galadrial lived 1274 solar years before the darkening of Valinor and everything kicked off. After that there was 7049 years until the end of the 3rd age. So by that, yes she would have spent the bulk of her life outside of Valinor, but elves don't change like humans do. Their personalities and mannerisms are pretty much set in their first hundred years or so.
And if we use the IMO more correct conversion of 144 solar years to a Valinorian year, Galadrial spent over 19,000 solar years of her life in Valinor before subsequent events happened.
You know how old people are set in their ways and fairly rigid in their personality and mannerisms? That is literally every elf past their first hundred years.
Jadenim wrote: Thing is, Tolkien changed his own stories a lot, as the world evolved in his mind, up to and including changing the published version of the Hobbit to better align with LoTR.
So no problem if you don’t like the show because of writing/acting/directing, etc. but if your only complaint is that it’s “inconsistent” with previous material, then I think that’s a bit disingenuous, even without getting into arguments about what’s necessary to adapt a work for the screen.
Inconsistency is always a sufficient complaint. Superman being portrayed in his next movie as a selfish Kryptonian jerk would be inconsistent and a good reason for a fan of Superman, as he has been portrayed until then, to dislike the material.
The reason Tolkien revised the Hobbit was to maintain the consistency of his narrative as it expanded.
I'm also really okay with criticizing Amazon for wanting to do a Silmarillion show, failing to get the rights, and then deciding to try anyway.
Jadenim wrote: Thing is, Tolkien changed his own stories a lot, as the world evolved in his mind, up to and including changing the published version of the Hobbit to better align with LoTR.
So no problem if you don’t like the show because of writing/acting/directing, etc. but if your only complaint is that it’s “inconsistent” with previous material, then I think that’s a bit disingenuous, even without getting into arguments about what’s necessary to adapt a work for the screen.
Inconsistency is always a sufficient complaint. Superman being portrayed in his next movie as a selfish Kryptonian jerk would be inconsistent and a good reason for a fan of Superman, as he has been portrayed until then, to dislike the material.
The reason Tolkien revised the Hobbit was to maintain the consistency of his narrative as it expanded.
I'm also really okay with criticizing Amazon for wanting to do a Silmarillion show, failing to get the rights, and then deciding to try anyway.
I would be inclined to agree with Scrabble here.
While Rings of Power was brilliant to look at during various scenes the more I ponder on what I watched the less happy I am with it. That is the opposite of what makes a classic… well… a classic. It should grow in the mind of the viewer/reader as time passes. And with Fantasy material suspension of disbelief, at least for me, really requires decent consistency. I respect that the show was able to convince me of an Elrond not played by Hugo Weaving so I can deal with some level of inconsistency but Galadriel just too often felt… out of character. And not because of who was playing her. It was the writing.
Grey Templar wrote:The original Author has the liberty to hem and haw over his own work. People who are adapting the work after the fact do not have that liberty. Especially if you do a bad job of it.
Completely changing a character's personality to be inconsistent with the source material is bad unless it actually improves it. If it is just change for the sake of change or actively harms the quality of the story, it is bad. That is what happened with Galadrial.
To give an example of changing a character in a way that is superior to the original material. House of the Dragon and King Viserys. In the books, the king is just old and obese and dies from that. In the show, he is suffering from some sort of flesh eating disease that is wracking him with pain and suffering and eventually kills him, and this adds a dimension to his character and allowed for some truly amazing scenes(in a heartbreaking way). GRRM himself says that this was an improvement over the original way he wrote it. Tolkien isn't around anymore, and his work is far and away superior, so changes need to be measured and careful and only if they objectively improve the material.
Turning Galadrial from a wise and farsighted individual with magical powers due to her being one of only 2 elves in Middle Earth to have seen the Two Trees into a petulant, arrogant, childishly demanding person does not improve her character or the story in any way. And no, she should not be "still learning and eventually becoming the wise person we later see in the LOTR". No, she was very much a full grown adult prior to the darkening of Valinor. And her described personality is very much the same as during the LOTR.
Scrabb wrote: Inconsistency is always a sufficient complaint. Superman being portrayed in his next movie as a selfish Kryptonian jerk would be inconsistent and a good reason for a fan of Superman, as he has been portrayed until then, to dislike the material.
So we keep coming back to Galadriel specifically and its definitely the most vexing part of this show.
Let me start with how I agree with you: I don't think these changes are in service to the character, and I don't think it (or the show as a whole) are really all that faithful to Tolkien or his themes - even when they could be without hurting the product. While I can see why they felt the changes were neccesary to act in service of this story they're trying to tell, I remain skeptical that it's going to ultimately be of service to that story, if that makes any sense at all.
The part where I disagree: It is absolutely the decision of the creators of the show to make changes to a character in order to serve the story they are trying to tell. It's not the original author or the estate's call to make unless they work that into the contract when they sell those rights. Yes. It means sometimes, a lot of times, bad writers or bad producers make incredibly bad calls and they should absolutely be called out for it when they do, but at the end of the day they're the ones making the show. It's why Henry Cavill had to leave Witcher instead of throwing the writers out one at a time with his big super arms, its why Ursula Le Guin could only call out the producers of Earthsea for casting all of the brown-skinned island characters from her book with white actors and they made that awful show anyway. Next to the long list of terrible production choices we've seen over time, giving Galadriel a (at least so far) somewhat predictable getting over your PTSD arc is nothing, it's not even close to the worst sin of this show, certainly not enough to knee-cap it. Reserve judgement until it's actually run its course, or at least until they've actually crashed and burned.
Scrabb wrote: I'm also really okay with criticizing Amazon for wanting to do a Silmarillion show, failing to get the rights, and then deciding to try anyway.
Silmarillion was never on the table, it was the Estate that went around dangling the LotR TV rights in front of studios and taking proposals and the Silmarillion has some kind of licensing clause that means a third party is allowed some kind of preferrential right to match bids on it or something so they don't touch that, but have a loophole to address individual elements if deemed neccesary through consultation with the estate or something?
It's all really convoluted, from what I can tell. Thankfully the whole thing goes out the window when Tolkien's work enters the public domain in like 20 years. I look foreward to hearing people debate the authenticity of those resulting works!
Jadenim wrote: Thing is, Tolkien changed his own stories a lot, as the world evolved in his mind, up to and including changing the published version of the Hobbit to better align with LoTR.
So no problem if you don’t like the show because of writing/acting/directing, etc. but if your only complaint is that it’s “inconsistent” with previous material, then I think that’s a bit disingenuous, even without getting into arguments about what’s necessary to adapt a work for the screen.
Inconsistency is always a sufficient complaint. Superman being portrayed in his next movie as a selfish Kryptonian jerk would be inconsistent and a good reason for a fan of Superman, as he has been portrayed until then, to dislike the material.
The reason Tolkien revised the Hobbit was to maintain the consistency of his narrative as it expanded.
I'm also really okay with criticizing Amazon for wanting to do a Silmarillion show, failing to get the rights, and then deciding to try anyway.
Tolkien also kept changing and changing things elsewhere as well. Hobbit is hardly only thing. Silmarillion was also mess of uncompleted text that wasn't exactly consistent. On one hand Balrog's are supremely powerful few in numbers and killing one was A Big Thing.
The reason Tolkien revised the Hobbit was to maintain the consistency of his narrative as it expanded.
Tolkien also kept changing and changing things elsewhere as well. Hobbit is hardly only thing. Silmarillion was also mess of uncompleted text that wasn't exactly consistent. On one hand Balrog's are supremely powerful few in numbers and killing one was A Big Thing.
Then there's hordes of them...
Yup.
To support your point about constant revisions Tolkien had also not answered to his own satisfaction the question of the exact nature of the orcs. Which is a pretty big deal as far as universe background goes. It had been uncertain if they were an original species corrupted and twisted or something else. He settled on them being corrupted elves for a time but discarded that line later and returned to uncertainty.
The Silmarillion wasn't published in Tolkien's lifetime for a reason.
Waiting to see the copium from people trying to say it wasn't that the show was bad, it's just because of the "haters" that it wasn't successful.
Either way, the gross mismanagement of funds for what we got given how much was poured into this hopefully teaches mega corpos like Amazon that you can't just throw money at something and expect it to be successful. Unfortunately, the pillaging of classic IP's will continue but hopefully this at least gives them some pause before they run roughshod over the source material.
Tolkien also kept changing and changing things elsewhere as well. Hobbit is hardly only thing. Silmarillion was also mess of uncompleted text that wasn't exactly consistent. On one hand Balrog's are supremely powerful few in numbers and killing one was A Big Thing.
Then there's hordes of them...
While we're revisiting I wanted to share a bit of how the Balrog bit isn't so much discrepancy as it looks at a cursory glance.
There were numbers of them serving under Morgoth but their abundance and the ability of individual Elves to defeat them in physical combat spoke more to the diminishing of the world at large as time passes in the story and less to retconning or a specific plot hole. Everything in middle earth is fading away as time passes. Almost like it's the stage for souls to strut their stuff before retiring and not the be-all of existence to cling to.
Also, I don't know how well the dwarves do against strong spirits, which the Balrogs were. See Gimli and his fear of the dead.
Also, also I believe Durin's Bane was a particularly strong Balrog.
I think one thing that is missing from the films is that in the original flight to Riverdell (sp) there's a battle and an elf awakens inner powers or such (sorry memory is hazy of the details) but its a full on powerful surge of power against the 9. Sure it still takes the surging waters to fully drive them away, but its a good show that the most ancient and powerful of Elves were far from simply fast with a bow and sword and were capable of quite powerful feats of magical prowess.
Yes, its Glorfindel. Arwen kinda took his place in the film for that part. And its really just his mere presence which drives the Nine away. Frodo can see into the unseen world while he is under the effect of the Morgul blade and he can see his burning soul.
Glorfindel was the champion of Gondolin as the Lord of the Golden Flower. During the fall of Gondolin he protected the refugees rearguard and gave his life to slay the balrog Lungorthin. For this sacrifice, he was reincarnated in Valinor far earlier than most elves do. Then he was sent to Middle Earth again in the second age as an emissary of the Valar similar to the wizards, and was given power similar to a full Maia by Manwe.
He's definitely NOT a normal Elf, and is definitely one of the most powerful elves in Middle Earth during the third age. Probably more powerful than Galadrial, ignoring her having Nenya.
As for Balrogs, there being "lots of them" is relative. There were only a lot of them during the first age, but it is fitting for that time period. And really even if there were a few hundred or so it would still make killing one a big deal. At least, all the times it is a big deal it ends up being in single combat. I'm sure many were taken down by numbers and while that is still glorious, it isn't worth mentioning in the great annals.
It could also be that the Balrogs were largely held back. Morgoth was ever paranoid and hoarding of his strength. Perhaps he could have sent out his entire horde of balrogs and won, but his paranoia and fear of loss kept him from risking his best trump card. Plus the Balrogs had wills of their own, they too were likely consumed by fear and uncertainty. Thus avoiding risk till important moments, and getting punished when it happened.
And nobody is going to write songs of how Balrog #71 got skewered by a thousand arrows or Balrog #43 who took a ballista bolt to the head.
Concept of "Balrog" evolved a lot during Tolkien's writing. IIRC originally they were just some sort of elite infantry. Fall of Gondolin has several Balrogs die, because that story is one of the first Tolkien wrote, and he never updated it. As I recall, later he clarified that Balrog were very few in number (there were like, five or so).
Also, it’s worth noting that Glorfindel in LOTR was originally intended to be a separate character from Glorifindel in the Fall of Gondolin and was retconned into the same character.
Legolas, too: but Legolas is only mentioned in passing, so Tolkien did not see the need to bend over backwards to explain his appearence in LotR. I am sure Tolkien would have simply removed Legolas from Fall of Gondolin had he ever rewritten it.
People of Numenor used lot of historic names (just like us - how many Alexanders there have been?). Denethor and Ecthelion, for example. But at some point, Tolkien decided that Elves would not reuse names (thus, creating a nightmare for Elvish parents who must have struggled to come up with an unused name).
When I read LotR for the first time, I was excited at the thought of Glorfindel accompanying Frodo et al in their quest to Mordor. But then Council chose Legolas, and I remember my disappointment. "Who is this 'Lego' guy? He's not even a High Elf..."
Probably saw how much money was being thrown around for the creation of the show and wanted a piece of that pie, if even if they have to lie to get their way to the turd sandwich that is this adaptation.
Given the people and companies the Tolkien estate has forced to back down over the years (without Amazon dollars on their side), I don't rate this guy's chances with his fanfiction. That ship sailed with Dennis L McKiernan
Probably saw how much money was being thrown around for the creation of the show and wanted a piece of that pie, if even if they have to lie to get their way to the turd sandwich that is this adaptation.
It's still baffling, as the Tolkein estate rather famously didn't want Amazon to make the series and refused them the rights to the Silmarillion.
Whoever is behind the suit is either stupid, high, crazy, or some combination of the three. It seems extremely unlikely the Tolkien estate stole his bad fanfic sequel, gave it to Amazon, and then had Amazon make a contentious TV series based on that work that definitely isn't a sequel to Lord of the Rings. And I just don't see any way to turn such a lawsuit into money. You can find excerpts of his 'work' online and they are accurately summed up as 'the Tolkien estate will sue this guy before he makes a penny.'
Probably saw how much money was being thrown around for the creation of the show and wanted a piece of that pie, if even if they have to lie to get their way to the turd sandwich that is this adaptation.
It's still baffling, as the Tolkein estate rather famously didn't want Amazon to make the series and refused them the rights to the Silmarillion.
Whoever is behind the suit is either stupid, high, crazy, or some combination of the three. It seems extremely unlikely the Tolkien estate stole his bad fanfic sequel, gave it to Amazon, and then had Amazon make a contentious TV series based on that work that definitely isn't a sequel to Lord of the Rings. And I just don't see any way to turn such a lawsuit into money. You can find excerpts of his 'work' online and they are accurately summed up as 'the Tolkien estate will sue this guy before he makes a penny.'
It definitely feels like a poorly thought out publicity stunt that's destined to backfire. Though tbf, there's been so many high profile cases of bad faith suing like the Gwyneth Paltrow case recently that I think people have collectively lost it and are using the court system as their new playground.
Probably saw how much money was being thrown around for the creation of the show and wanted a piece of that pie, if even if they have to lie to get their way to the turd sandwich that is this adaptation.
It's still baffling, as the Tolkein estate rather famously didn't want Amazon to make the series and refused them the rights to the Silmarillion.
Whoever is behind the suit is either stupid, high, crazy, or some combination of the three. It seems extremely unlikely the Tolkien estate stole his bad fanfic sequel, gave it to Amazon, and then had Amazon make a contentious TV series based on that work that definitely isn't a sequel to Lord of the Rings. And I just don't see any way to turn such a lawsuit into money. You can find excerpts of his 'work' online and they are accurately summed up as 'the Tolkien estate will sue this guy before he makes a penny.'
On the other hand, it would be hilarious if he did win. Or even just forced a settlement. Amazon being forced to admit(legally or "we didn't but here is money go away!") that they ripped off a bad fan-fic would just tickle me.
That is indeed a solid woof. An doubly shocking considering how it generally fared better in the Nielsen ratings compared to House of the Dragon - though even then looking at the graph you can see it didn't climb the way HoD did.
The articles (the Kotaku one, and the one they reference) are worth a peek too, they outline some interesting industry complaints about Amazon Studios' approach and tendency to throw big money at projects and overrely on focus groups, which seems to handily explain the dazzling special effects and gradual increase in awkward expository dialogue as the season progressed.
LordofHats wrote: It's still baffling, as the Tolkein estate rather famously didn't want Amazon to make the series and refused them the rights to the Silmarillion.
Can we please put this to bed? The Tolkien Estate were the ones shopping the IP around taking series proposals from the different streaming companies, they accepted Amazon's proposal and apparently exerted controlling privileged to ensure Peter Jackson wouldn't be allowed to contribute, they are not helpless bystanders in any of this.
Grey Templar wrote: On the other hand, it would be hilarious if he did win. Or even just forced a settlement. Amazon being forced to admit(legally or "we didn't but here is money go away!") that they ripped off a bad fan-fic would just tickle me.
I don't think it's actually possible. From the synopsis it sounds like the only solid connective tissue is that there's a hobbit named Elanor in both, and the plaintiff can't claim ownership of that because she's literally Sam's daughter from the actual book.
