Shadow Walker wrote: Which means the only reason they are there is just because the showrunners wanted it because their particular world view.
Ah yes, the idea that everyone being white is the default and any deviation from it must be justified. Totally not racism...
I never said it would be unrealistic to have racial diversity as ours but wanted the reasons why it would be the same. Are there any in world reasons telling that their biology is the same or not? If their biology differs than what is a reason they look like us. No problem with whatever color elves etc. are, but be it more than that ''our world is made of various shades of skin so all fantasy races need to reflect this or the show will be attacked for being racistic''.
Why do dwarves all have beards? Is there a biological reason for it?
Shadow Walker wrote: That aside, what is the deal with Amazon delaying viewers reviews of TROP? Do they really think it will help the show? Do they really think that every review judging the show as bad is written by some troll/nazi/insert the usual nonsense explanation?
Yes, they accurately think the majority of one-star reviews are by racists and/or trolls and are not a valid assessment of the show's quality. Do you dispute that the show is being review bombed like that?
(And please keep in mind that a one-star review means you believe this show is among the worst ever created, not merely flawed or not to your specific taste.)
Yeah. Now that review-bombing is a thing, aggregating fan reviews mostly just lets you know what the Nazi party thinks. At least with anything that has major pop culture implications.
Lord Damocles wrote:All this talk about minorities, but nobody is appreciating the quality writing that tells us that rocks sink because they look downwards, while boats float because they look upwards; but then how do you know which way is up if the light from the sun/tree reflects off the water. That's the less we should all learn, because the immortal elf who doesn't have a word for death won't be here forever.
...wha..?
I didn't mind the talk itself, in fact all the dialogue is really prosey which I like more than how the Jackson movies would alternate between prose and modern dialogue. As for him not always being there - yeah that's a strange thing to say, that's why it surprises her and he changes the subject, we're getting some cheeky foreshadowing, I think.
Grumpy Gnome wrote:I seem to recall reading various folks online talking about the Elves having armor like “the scales of fish” and Dwarves inventing maille. No mention of plate beyond perhaps vambraces? But I may be misremembering. It was a hot topic a few times over on the Lead Adventure Forum and forms part of the foundation of the Dark Ages aesthetics that several Tolkien fans have created.
Doing a bit of quick research on the plate armor, her “ceremonial armor” does not look as bad in the still as I remember… perhaps it was something with how it looked as it was being removed. It looked too much like a prop. Now, if the showrunners are going to sell me on Elven plate, the second photo does a better job. And that was the thing with Jackson. His vision of Gondor armor and Uruk-Hai armor was very different from mine…. but he sold it to me by looking cool enough for me to give him a pass on them.
I would not be keen to wear maille in Arctic cold.. but if I did, having cool looking stars in the armor is a nice touch. ⭐️
Edit: I did not mind the Green Man leather leaf amor. I was not particularly keen on it but nor did it bother me.
In addition to looking cool, by making it so different from the other armour we see it helps sell that these elves are operating in a far removed place, perhaps not even directly associated with the ones in Lindon.
Something about the boat armour looks flimsy, I saw someone compare it to paper plates. The armour we see Galadriel wearing in promo shots is also different than any we've seen before (this costume budget is crazy) and my first guess is Numenorean, but it looks like they are going to have a scale mail focus.
Unrelated to any of that...
Spoiler:
Is that broken, black, rune marked sword giving anybody else serious Moorcock vibes?
Shadow Walker wrote: Which means the only reason they are there is just because the showrunners wanted it because their particular world view.
Ah yes, the idea that everyone being white is the default and any deviation from it must be justified. Totally not racism...
I never said it would be unrealistic to have racial diversity as ours but wanted the reasons why it would be the same. Are there any in world reasons telling that their biology is the same or not? If their biology differs than what is a reason they look like us. No problem with whatever color elves etc. are, but be it more than that ''our world is made of various shades of skin so all fantasy races need to reflect this or the show will be attacked for being racistic''.
Why do dwarves all have beards? Is there a biological reason for it?
I feel that there's more need to justify why your fantasy world has so little diversity. You'd need some sort of explanation to justify why elves, dwarves and hobbits are so homogeneous than humans. Or why your humans are all the same, etc. You would not need any justification for why the mix is different from US/Europe because the mix is different from ours throughout most of the planet.
I've seen this addressed quite well in fantasy novels where humans and other peoples have lots of diverse races associated with various regional ancestries or mixes of ancestry and interestingly they do not correspond to any races of humans on earth. Admittedly, that would make casting quite difficult.
trexmeyer wrote: The Rings of Power is an adaptation that draws far more heavily from modern culture.
What does that mean?
I'm not wanting to put words in mouths here so I'd appreciate you explaining what exactly you mean by "modern culture".
It's now expected that media has some degree of minority and female representation. Most of the earlier Science Fiction and Fantasy was written by white males for white males and featured only white males. Women were present to some degree but as plot devices or secondary/tertiary characters. You can't get away with that anymore in mainstream media.
trexmeyer wrote: It's now expected that media has some degree of minority and female representation. Most of the earlier Science Fiction and Fantasy was written by white males for white males and featured only white males. Women were present to some degree but as plot devices or secondary/tertiary characters. You can't get away with that anymore in mainstream media.
And why is any of this a problem? Why is there a need to "get away with" having women only as plot devices or background characters? And why do you think that fiction written "for white males" has to work this way? Are white males only capable of reading stories where other white males are the only relevant characters?
And, in the case of RoP, why does any of this matter? How is it "drawing heavily on modern culture" or "no longer true to Tolkien's vision" that some characters are not played by white actors? So far none of that has made any plot difference and the only racial issues that have appeared have been the ones that are clearly presented in Tolkien's work: Men vs. Elves disagreeing over who is to blame and for how long, Elves and Dwarves having different perceptions of how long 20 years is and how insulting it is to stay away for that long, etc. The fact that one of the dwarves is played by a white actor and one by a black actor is completely irrelevant.
I have never said that increased representation is a problem. I have said that not all criticism of The Rings of Power is rooted in racism. Obsess more.
trexmeyer wrote: I have never said that increased representation is a problem. I have said that not all criticism of The Rings of Power is rooted in racism. Obsess more.
you wrote:This is not necessarily a bad thing but claiming that The Rings of Power is somehow true to Tolkien's vision or intent is frankly absurd.
Please do tell me how RoP is not true to Tolkien's vision without resorting to racism.
trexmeyer wrote: It's now expected that media has some degree of minority and female representation. Most of the earlier Science Fiction and Fantasy was written by white males for white males and featured only white males. Women were present to some degree but as plot devices or secondary/tertiary characters. You can't get away with that anymore in mainstream media.
Which doesn't apply to Tolkiens works as he very specifically left real world racial indicators out of his writing for the majority of characters and people's. So the idea that his works were written for white men and that using non-white actors is a violation of his works is a load of bull.
I also happened to read Tolkien’s LOTR as a story about white good men and even whiter elves, with a Semitic dwarf sidekick, fighting against the “unlovely Mongol type” orcs and brown had people. I found that old-timey racism really uncomfortable and think it should be unwelcome in this day. I would no more expect a modern LOTR adaptation to stick to that than I would a Lovecraft adaptation to have only white, wealthy protagonists and all brown people as shrieking cultists. To me, keeping the old-timey racism in LOTR is just like keeping the vagina dialogues in The Godfather: gross and unnecessary.
When a poster claims that discarding the unpleasant old-timey racism is cutting out the core of Tolkien’s writing, I see only the one obvious reason they might feel that way. The other explanations all seem to be word games dancing around the same spot so people can say “nuh-uh” to the obvious.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I also happened to read Tolkien’s LOTR as a story about white good men and even whiter elves, with a Semitic dwarf sidekick, fighting against the “unlovely Mongol type” orcs and brown had people.
Gitzbitah wrote: ...I definitely regret the loss of detail of the magical barrow blades the hobbits carried and their role in slaying the Witch King, but an extra 30 minutes of Tom Bombadil singing about his yellow boots would not be worth it.
I do not regret that loss. Mostly because it was kind of bad storytelling to have extreme coincidences that solve the heroes' problems, and that's all that really is.
They just randomly find those daggers for no reason and take them with them for equally no reason and only after killing the Witch King of Angmar is it revealed that this hobbit has been carrying around a dagger created with the magic power to wound the Witch King of Angmar specifically- AND it undermines the more interesting gaes story (the Macbeth style prophesy) of how the Witch King is defeated.
That everything sort of hinged on that innocuous moment reminds me of the story of how the little red droid that malfunctioned in A New Hope was force sensitive and was able to see into the future and know that if he malfunctioned at this exact moment it would lead to the downfall of the Empire. And it FEELS like a retcon (because Tolkien didn't revise as much as he should have).
I can see your point there. I took it as reinforcing the idea that everyone doing their part to fight evil would eventually lead to victories of a scale they could not imagine, which is something of a theme through the stories, rather than extreme coincidence. There's a fair bit in fellowship about their history, but that may well have been added after Tolkein decided to slay the Witch King with it.
To counter- a prophecy that 'no mortal man can kill the witch king' in a world full of elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, trolls, and even hobbits, is about as useful as having a prophecy that no knife will kill me today. Of just the core fellowship- Gandalf, Merry, Pippin, Sam, Frodo, Legolas or Gimli could have slain the Witch King- only Boromir, and possibly Aragorn would have been prevented from killing him.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I also happened to read Tolkien’s LOTR as a story about white good men and even whiter elves, with a Semitic dwarf sidekick, fighting against the “unlovely Mongol type” orcs and brown had people.
You quite literally lost the plot
I’m not saying that’s the best or only interpretation. I’m saying that’s the reading I took from it. (I hope we don’t have to quote the text and his letters for you to get why.). Clearly, from comments in this thread, I am hardly the only one to read the implications that the main characters were all white Europeans.
(And just in case you meant plot literally, I am only addressing the racial makeup of the characters, not the plot or themes of the story or their arcs.)
BobtheInquisitor wrote: When a poster claims that discarding the unpleasant old-timey racism is cutting out the core of Tolkien’s writing, I see only the one obvious reason they might feel that way. The other explanations all seem to be word games dancing around the same spot so people can say “nuh-uh” to the obvious.
Or they are objecting to your claim that there is any in the first place.
Many of the humans who followed Sauron and Morgoth were described as colored, but it was only purely descriptive. Their color is not taken as a giveaway of them being evil, nor are they disparaged for being lesser in anyway. Their valor and willingness to fight to the death when the Pellanor Fields are won is even praised despite them being on the wrong side. The fact they have been deceived by the darkness does not elicit scorn, but pity and empathy from Faramir and others.
The only beings that are truly hated are the Orcs, but again it has nothing to do with their skin colors, which are fully varied in every way. There are orcs with dark skin, pale skin, mottled, and every shade in between. And even then, while they are inherently evil, and thus should be spurned, they are not irredeemably so. The Last Alliance is described as having every living thing being divided that day with the exception of the Elves, which implies that at least some Orcs fought against Sauron. For even in their blackest hearts, they hate Sauron and Morgoth most of all because it is they who evil has most wronged.
It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".
Grey Templar, by the point where the “bad guys” are considered honorable, we’ve already had lots of “swarthy”, “slanted eyes”, “wiry hair”, and other terms I’d expect in a cartoon selling me war bonds. The descriptors may have been common at the time, but they are loaded today. Again, I’m not the one arguing this is how Tolkien’s work should be presented or that it is an important part of his work—I am arguing against that.
Grimskul wrote: It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".
I’m saying when I first read Tolkien, I read it with the same understanding as His Master’s Voice and Shadow, and found that unpleasant, not ideal. I also have not been the same poster arguing Tolkien’s work is inclusive, so you’re conflating me with someone else. I’m arguing that, even if you believe the racial makeup of the main characters was specified by to the original text, it should be discarded.
Grimskul wrote: It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".
Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments. And yet we have House of the Dragon and the Sandman with world wide praises despite both having various minorities in their cast. I guess the Nazi are getting sloppy
Shadow Walker wrote: Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments.
If you can look at the user scoring and say that it is the result of legitimate opinions and not a racist backlash then you are either really naive or dishonest. You may or may not like RoP and there are certainly reasonable points to criticize but there is no way it is among the worst shows ever created as the number of 1-star reviews would suggest. The fact that RoP is being review bombed is really not open to dispute, and once you admit that review bombing is happening the source of it is pretty obvious.
(And I will note that you haven't commented on anything but the race of the actors. For someone who is skeptical that RoP is being targeted by racists and the 1-star reviews are legitimate you sure don't have much interest in discussing any of its supposed flaws that are unrelated to racism.)
Shadow Walker wrote: Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments.
If you can look at the user scoring and say that it is the result of legitimate opinions and not a racist backlash then you are either really naive or dishonest. You may or may not like RoP and there are certainly reasonable points to criticize but there is no way it is among the worst shows ever created as the number of 1-star reviews would suggest. The fact that RoP is being review bombed is really not open to dispute, and once you admit that review bombing is happening the source of it is pretty obvious.
(And I will note that you haven't commented on anything but the race of the actors. For someone who is skeptical that RoP is being targeted by racists and the 1-star reviews are legitimate you sure don't have much interest in discussing any of its supposed flaws that are unrelated to racism.)
I have commented at the beginning that the show is even worse than both the Witcher and the Wheel of Time, and that after episode 2 I do not intend to continue. I did not descibed it more because others did it better, both here and other forums/sites/YT etc. My first post about accusation of racism was simply a reaction for a post implying that "adjusted for modern audiences" could be just a code for "I don't like those actors being black". Both House of the Dragon and the Sandman faced a racistic backlash, and still there are much much more positive reviews than negative ones. But somehow only TROP is being targeted solely by the hidden racist conspiracy? Have you ever thought that peple are giving a 1 star scores simply because how much dissapointed they are with the show. Some people would react very strongly when their beloved IP is getting the treatment they think is unjust. Call me naive, dishonest, racist, whatever but try to face the sad reality that the majority of the viewers out there simply are either not happy or extremally not happy with TROP.
Grimskul wrote: It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".
Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments. And yet we have House of the Dragon and the Sandman with world wide praises despite both having various minorities in their cast. I guess the Nazi are getting sloppy
no one's saying it's a conspiracy theory and you fething well know it. However if you think the far right isn't online, and orginized....
well, pay attention to the last few years sunshine
Shadow Walker wrote: Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments.
If you can look at the user scoring and say that it is the result of legitimate opinions and not a racist backlash then you are either really naive or dishonest. You may or may not like RoP and there are certainly reasonable points to criticize but there is no way it is among the worst shows ever created as the number of 1-star reviews would suggest. The fact that RoP is being review bombed is really not open to dispute, and once you admit that review bombing is happening the source of it is pretty obvious.
(And I will note that you haven't commented on anything but the race of the actors. For someone who is skeptical that RoP is being targeted by racists and the 1-star reviews are legitimate you sure don't have much interest in discussing any of its supposed flaws that are unrelated to racism.)
I have commented at the beginning that the show is even worse than both the Witcher and the Wheel of Time, and that after episode 2 I do not intend to continue. I did not descibed it more because others did it better, both here and other forums/sites/YT etc. My first post about accusation of racism was simply a reaction for a post implying that "adjusted for modern audiences" could be just a code for "I don't like those actors being black". Both House of the Dragon and the Sandman faced a racistic backlash, and still there are much much more positive reviews than negative ones. But somehow only TROP is being targeted solely by the hidden racist conspiracy? Have you ever thought that peple are giving a 1 star scores simply because how much dissapointed they are with the show. Some people would react very strongly when their beloved IP is getting the treatment they think is unjust. Call me naive, dishonest, racist, whatever but try to face the sad reality that the majority of the viewers out there simply are either not happy or extremally not happy with TROP.
You could attempt some criticism that doesn't include the fact that a couple of the actors skin colour isn't white, if you wanted to try to convince people you aren't racist.
It's a bit late after two edit: four bloody pages of solely focusing on that. But hey. Keep reaching for the stars!
Grimskul wrote: It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".
Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments. And yet we have House of the Dragon and the Sandman with world wide praises despite both having various minorities in their cast. I guess the Nazi are getting sloppy
no one's saying it's a conspiracy theory and you fething well know it. However if you think the far right isn't online, and orginized....
well, pay attention to the last few years sunshine
I know they are online (my country is no different than yours on this matter), and that they are very well organized but telling that they are responsible for some show's failure is just as plausible as any conspiracy theory.
You could attempt some criticism that doesn't include the fact that a couple of the actors skin colour isn't white, if you wanted to try to convince people you aren't racist.
It's a bit late after two edit: four bloody pages of solely focusing on that. But hey. Keep reaching for the stars!
I said that others critised TROP better than I already so there was no point to reapeat it. Also the whole point, as told few times already, was not that they are there but why they are there other than there must be diversity in fantasy or you are a racist (and how one even dare to ask). And the most important thing is that I do not need to convince anyone that I am not a racist. If someone is delusional enough to think that then let him be.
Grimskul wrote: It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".
Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments. And yet we have House of the Dragon and the Sandman with world wide praises despite both having various minorities in their cast. I guess the Nazi are getting sloppy
no one's saying it's a conspiracy theory and you fething well know it. However if you think the far right isn't online, and orginized....
well, pay attention to the last few years sunshine
I know they are online (my country is no different than yours on this matter), and that they are very well organized but telling that they are responsible for some show's failure is just as plausible as any conspiracy theory.
Yeah... nutjobs review bombing something doesn't equate to failure. Its often the opposite, as the nutjobs tend to leave real failures, mediocre productions or relatively unknown properties alone.
All review bombing indicates in this particular instance is the usual idiots are up to their usual thing.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I also happened to read Tolkien’s LOTR as a story about white good men and even whiter elves, with a Semitic dwarf sidekick, fighting against the “unlovely Mongol type” orcs and brown had people.
You quite literally lost the plot
Bottom line is... its only bad if western media has white people only in things. All other nations and cultures can have the media casting 100% same race shows and its never a problem..
Grimskul wrote: It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".
Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments. And yet we have House of the Dragon and the Sandman with world wide praises despite both having various minorities in their cast. I guess the Nazi are getting sloppy
1) There is no world wide conspiracy. There are bigots that exist and the bigots do and say bigot things.
2) Did you not pay attention with Sandman and House of the dragon?
1) There is no world wide conspiracy. There are bigots that exist and the bigots do and say bigot things.
2) Did you not pay attention with Sandman and House of the dragon?
You have to be shoving your head into some pretty deep holes to not at least hear about this crap happening Every Single Time.
1. Of course that there is no world wide conspiracy. It is exactly what I am laughing at here.
2. Do you even bother to read what I wrote? To quote myself ''Both House of the Dragon and the Sandman faced a racistic backlash, and still there are much much more positive reviews than negative ones.'' Also even if I was not aware of that (is it mandatory to follow any social media gak show?), how does it changes that they are generally held as either good or very good shows, and TROP is not?
The orcs looked amazing, also liked the way they designed the warg. He did have some neotenous features about him which was in stark contrast to the brutality and ferocity of the fight. It looked strange, but in a good way. Reminded me a bit of the Cave troll fight from the Fellowship, with the cave troll having had a similar cruel toddler thing going on. The attempted escape of the elves was done just right. They had a fighting chance, suffered several casualties and when it seemed that the Watchmaster would finally escape to safety, it is revealed that there was never any real chance of success in the first place. Devastating and satisfying. Well done.
Galadriel/Numenor remains a total bust for me. She is still an ice block of a character that fails to garner any sympathy. That lingering shot of her face when she rode the horse sent a shiver down my spine for its sheer awkwardness. Elendil, Isildur, Tar-Miriel and Ar-Pharazon all suffer from the same weird character displacement as Galadriel, Elrond and Gil-Galad. Wrong place in time, wrong characterization and wrong relations within the context of their people and other characters. Halbrand becoming bad boy Aragorn of the southlands is something I dread.
The hobbits were fine this time around. It was unexpected to me that they would just leave people behind who couldn't keep up, but that's a plausible rule dictated by the necessities of a wandering people that relies on remaining hidden. Again, somewhat of a stark contrast to their otherwise whimsical nature, but it worked for me. Still looking forward to who and what the stranger is, my bets and hopes are on Morinechtar/Romestamo for now.
1) There is no world wide conspiracy. There are bigots that exist and the bigots do and say bigot things.
2) Did you not pay attention with Sandman and House of the dragon?
You have to be shoving your head into some pretty deep holes to not at least hear about this crap happening Every Single Time.
1. Of course that there is no world wide conspiracy. It is exactly what I am laughing at here.
2. Do you even bother to read what I wrote? To quote myself ''Both House of the Dragon and the Sandman faced a racistic backlash, and still there are much much more positive reviews than negative ones.'' Also even if I was not aware of that (is it mandatory to follow any social media gak show?), how does it changes that they are generally held as either good or very good shows, and TROP is not?
1) Sandman came out all at once. It's done. People know exactly what they were getting.
2) House of the Dragon isn't regarded as anything yet. It's too early to tell. I think most people are tentative with a bit of optimism.
3) The Rings of Power has the bulk of it's complaints coming from "The Usual Suspects" while being very early in it's release and being on one of the least popular streaming services.
4) Lets say everything wraps and yeah, the rings of power is the least popular of the 3. Look at the criticisms. Are they criticisms about a non white cast? I think it's fair to remove those from the equation.
1) Sandman came out all at once. It's done. People know exactly what they were getting.
2) House of the Dragon isn't regarded as anything yet. It's too early to tell. I think most people are tentative with a bit of optimism.
3) The Rings of Power has the bulk of it's complaints coming from "The Usual Suspects" while being very early in it's release and being on one of the least popular streaming services.
4) Lets say everything wraps and yeah, the rings of power is the least popular of the 3. Look at the criticisms. Are they criticisms about a non white cast? I think it's fair to remove those from the equation.
In a case of the Sandman, yes the season is finished, but my point for bringing it as an example was that there was also a racist backlash. But anyway let just use HOTD here. Both it and TROP have now 3 episodes, and still somehow one is generally praised when the other is not. Saying that all the critic is coming just from one source (be it racists/nazi/bigots, name them whatever) is simply untrue, and very offending to all those people out there who do not like the show (and I bet many of them are not white) . Same as saying that the show is exclusively criticised for their color cast. And yes, the racist comments should be removed. No one ever argued about it. The only problem, as always, is that practically any comment about the color cast is automatically classified as being racistic, especially when coming from a white person. My question here, why there need to be a real world diversity reflected in fictional races, was met with an immediate accusation of racism. Do you now understand how stupid it all is?
Numenor looks great and they've mostly avoided breaking more of the lore, so that is good. Only issue is that they're making Numenor out to be extremely isolationist, seemingly not having gone to Middle Earth for a long time. Numenor should be at the height of its colonization and power, Halbrand should have heard of them.
1) Sandman came out all at once. It's done. People know exactly what they were getting.
2) House of the Dragon isn't regarded as anything yet. It's too early to tell. I think most people are tentative with a bit of optimism.
3) The Rings of Power has the bulk of it's complaints coming from "The Usual Suspects" while being very early in it's release and being on one of the least popular streaming services.
4) Lets say everything wraps and yeah, the rings of power is the least popular of the 3. Look at the criticisms. Are they criticisms about a non white cast? I think it's fair to remove those from the equation.
In a case of the Sandman, yes the season is finished, but my point for bringing it as an example was that there was also a racist backlash. But anyway let just use HOTD here. Both it and TROP have now 3 episodes, and still somehow one is generally praised when the other is not. Saying that all the critic is coming just from one source (be it racists/nazi/bigots, name them whatever) is simply untrue, and very offending to all those people out there who do not like the show (and I bet many of them are not white) . Same as saying that the show is exclusively criticised for their color cast. And yes, the racist comments should be removed. No one ever argued about it. The only problem, as always, is that practically any comment about the color cast is automatically classified as being racistic, especially when coming from a white person. My question here, why there need to be a real world diversity reflected in fictional races, was met with an immediate accusation of racism. Do you now understand how stupid it all is?
When someone pulls out one of the decades-old, classic standbys of racist rhetorical questions 'why does there need to be diversity?' why in the world would you expect people to not take it as racist?
People don't experience that as 'an honest question,' they see it as the 'I'm not racist, but... ' racism flag that its been since... the 1950s? 40s?
1) Sandman came out all at once. It's done. People know exactly what they were getting.
2) House of the Dragon isn't regarded as anything yet. It's too early to tell. I think most people are tentative with a bit of optimism.
3) The Rings of Power has the bulk of it's complaints coming from "The Usual Suspects" while being very early in it's release and being on one of the least popular streaming services.
4) Lets say everything wraps and yeah, the rings of power is the least popular of the 3. Look at the criticisms. Are they criticisms about a non white cast? I think it's fair to remove those from the equation.
In a case of the Sandman, yes the season is finished, but my point for bringing it as an example was that there was also a racist backlash. But anyway let just use HOTD here. Both it and TROP have now 3 episodes, and still somehow one is generally praised when the other is not. Saying that all the critic is coming just from one source (be it racists/nazi/bigots, name them whatever) is simply untrue, and very offending to all those people out there who do not like the show (and I bet many of them are not white) . Same as saying that the show is exclusively criticised for their color cast. And yes, the racist comments should be removed. No one ever argued about it. The only problem, as always, is that practically any comment about the color cast is automatically classified as being racistic, especially when coming from a white person. My question here, why there need to be a real world diversity reflected in fictional races, was met with an immediate accusation of racism. Do you now understand how stupid it all is?
When someone pulls out one of the decades-old, classic standbys of racist rhetorical questions 'why does there need to be diversity?' why in the world would you expect people to not take it as racist?
People don't experience that as 'an honest question,' they see it as the 'I'm not racist, but... ' racism flag that its been since... the 1950s? 40s?
To be precise, the question was, why there need to be exactly the same diversity in fictional races as is in our world. That is a huge difference. But I get what you mean. And I also know that people will hear only what they want to hear. And that is the problem with todays world, when you need to explain for several pages that you do not mean what they think you mean. Funny thing is that in most countries I would be called a leftist.
1) Sandman came out all at once. It's done. People know exactly what they were getting.
2) House of the Dragon isn't regarded as anything yet. It's too early to tell. I think most people are tentative with a bit of optimism.
3) The Rings of Power has the bulk of it's complaints coming from "The Usual Suspects" while being very early in it's release and being on one of the least popular streaming services.
4) Lets say everything wraps and yeah, the rings of power is the least popular of the 3. Look at the criticisms. Are they criticisms about a non white cast? I think it's fair to remove those from the equation.
In a case of the Sandman, yes the season is finished, but my point for bringing it as an example was that there was also a racist backlash. But anyway let just use HOTD here. Both it and TROP have now 3 episodes, and still somehow one is generally praised when the other is not. Saying that all the critic is coming just from one source (be it racists/nazi/bigots, name them whatever) is simply untrue, and very offending to all those people out there who do not like the show (and I bet many of them are not white) . Same as saying that the show is exclusively criticised for their color cast. And yes, the racist comments should be removed. No one ever argued about it.
There are 2 discussions to be had here.
1) Is that there are bigots who are review bombing and their critiques are coming from their own bs.
2 Is that the show has whatever things people don't like that are critcisms of the show itself. They don't like the pace. They think some of the opening gak was ham fisted. Whatever.
Just because people are talking about #1 doesn't mean the people saying #2 are being discussed in the same breath. When people call out the abusive bigots it's not calling someone who didn't like x scene a bigot. It's not talking about YOU.
(and I bet many of them are not white)
So fething what? There is only one thing this could imply. That a POC who is upset about racial casting cannot themselves be racist. Which is factually untrue. So why are you even bringing it up?
The only problem, as always, is that practically any comment about the color cast is automatically classified as being racistic, especially when coming from a white person
What criticism of the POC cast could you possibly have that isn't inherently at least systemically racist?
My question here, why there need to be a real world diversity reflected in fictional races, was met with an immediate accusation of racism. Do you now understand how stupid it all is?
Okay, so what if TRoP wasn't diverse. What if it was cast entirely with Indian actors. Is that a problem? Everyone, elves, humans, dwarves, orks, all of them, from central Asia. The issue isn't diversity. It's non white. Which, is discriminatory IRL. Which is racist. Probably not overtly racist. Not actively racist. Nobody is sitting at a desk twirling a mustache cackling white power (except the obvious ones who are). But these roles that do not require the cast to be white (or anything. Because the species are fictional) are being cast with diversity, and your question is "Why not just make them all white?" Do YOU not see how stupid that is?
Numenor looks great and they've mostly avoided breaking more of the lore, so that is good. Only issue is that they're making Numenor out to be extremely isolationist, seemingly not having gone to Middle Earth for a long time. Numenor should be at the height of its colonization and power, Halbrand should have heard of them.
I don't think anyone can argue it does not look great! Of course if it had been Game of Thrones - Galadrials dress would have been much more see through
1) Is that there are bigots who are review bombing and their critiques are coming from their own bs.
2 Is that the show has whatever things people don't like that are critcisms of the show itself. They don't like the pace. They think some of the opening gak was ham fisted. Whatever.
Just because people are talking about #1 doesn't mean the people saying #2 are being discussed in the same breath. When people call out the abusive bigots it's not calling someone who didn't like x scene a bigot. It's not talking about YOU.
(and I bet many of them are not white)
So fething what? There is only one thing this could imply. That a POC who is upset about racial casting cannot themselves be racist. Which is factually untrue. So why are you even bringing it up?
The only problem, as always, is that practically any comment about the color cast is automatically classified as being racistic, especially when coming from a white person
What criticism of the POC cast could you possibly have that isn't inherently at least systemically racist?
My question here, why there need to be a real world diversity reflected in fictional races, was met with an immediate accusation of racism. Do you now understand how stupid it all is?
Okay, so what if TRoP wasn't diverse. What if it was cast entirely with Indian actors. Is that a problem? Everyone, elves, humans, dwarves, orks, all of them, from central Asia. The issue isn't diversity. It's non white. Which, is discriminatory IRL. Which is racist. Probably not overtly racist. Not actively racist. Nobody is sitting at a desk twirling a mustache cackling white power (except the obvious ones who are). But these role that do not require the cast to be white are being cast with diversity, and your question is "Why not just make them all white?" Do YOU not see how stupid that is?
You have some uncanny skill to either misinterpret or taking out of context or totally misunderstanding what I write. I am really tired of constantly explaining my point to you or others. Either you/they get it or not. I am past caring now. I will remove myself from this thread perpetually, and therefore will not interact here even if someone will try to continue the discussion. Thanks to all participants (yes, even to you who see me as a hidden racist).
1) Sandman came out all at once. It's done. People know exactly what they were getting.
2) House of the Dragon isn't regarded as anything yet. It's too early to tell. I think most people are tentative with a bit of optimism.
3) The Rings of Power has the bulk of it's complaints coming from "The Usual Suspects" while being very early in it's release and being on one of the least popular streaming services.
4) Lets say everything wraps and yeah, the rings of power is the least popular of the 3. Look at the criticisms. Are they criticisms about a non white cast? I think it's fair to remove those from the equation.
In a case of the Sandman, yes the season is finished, but my point for bringing it as an example was that there was also a racist backlash. But anyway let just use HOTD here. Both it and TROP have now 3 episodes, and still somehow one is generally praised when the other is not. Saying that all the critic is coming just from one source (be it racists/nazi/bigots, name them whatever) is simply untrue, and very offending to all those people out there who do not like the show (and I bet many of them are not white) . Same as saying that the show is exclusively criticised for their color cast. And yes, the racist comments should be removed. No one ever argued about it. The only problem, as always, is that practically any comment about the color cast is automatically classified as being racistic, especially when coming from a white person. My question here, why there need to be a real world diversity reflected in fictional races, was met with an immediate accusation of racism. Do you now understand how stupid it all is?
When someone pulls out one of the decades-old, classic standbys of racist rhetorical questions 'why does there need to be diversity?' why in the world would you expect people to not take it as racist?
People don't experience that as 'an honest question,' they see it as the 'I'm not racist, but... ' racism flag that its been since... the 1950s? 40s?
To be precise, the question was, why there need to be exactly the same diversity in fictional races as is in our world. That is a huge difference.
Maybe its a translation problem, but no, it isn't any kind of difference at all. Because the real effect is exactly the same- a coded question designed to exclude actors based solely on their appearance, not their talent.
Real-world effects on people trumps 'but fantasy...'
But I get what you mean. And I also know that people will hear only what they want to hear.
'I get what you mean, but its the fault of you people not listening' doesn't fly after you've doubled down on repeating the question after people have explained why it comes across as racist.
And that is the problem with todays world, when you need to explain for several pages that you do not mean what they think you mean. Funny thing is that in most countries I would be called a leftist.
Ah, no. Politics and racism sometimes align, but left leaning doesn't mean 'can't be racist.' Indeed, a lot of die hard Marxists were incredibly racist (and argued at length about why the USSR and China couldn't be Marxist utopias based on race)
And truthfully, being leftist doesn't say much. By American standards, center-right European politics is 'leftist.'
I am really tired of constantly explaining my point to you or others. Either you/they get it or not.
Nope, sorry. Zero points. If you are constantly explaining and multiple people don't get it, that's a problem with your explanation.
Some fair points you make there Voss and I agree with you.
Mrs. GG and I just finished watching episode 3 and loved it. A bit more graphic violence than we were expected but I am ok with that. I really like Galadriel more and more, especially when she makes mistakes. Her horse scene was awkwardly shot. Some shots in this show give off a bit of an “indulged art school student” vibe. And as much as I like how Clark can deliver lines at Galadriel, as much as she can show physical grace that could lend itself to martial arts, I am still not really seeing any sign of general level military expertise. And that is a real problem for me.
The Orcs were pretty good overall, certainly better than in Jackson's Hobbit. Maybe a bit less bones in the costuming. But I really liked the characterization and look of the slaves' “foreman”. I really liked the Warg. I think the actor playing Elendil is great. Isildur I am not so fond of but I suppose maybe I am not supposed to like him? I am not sure what to make of Halbarad but I definitely do not want him to become some sort of “bad boy Aragorn”.
Excellent set dressing and costuming across the board, except maybe the leather breastplates of the Numenorean sailors but the Royal Guard look good.
Arondil suffers a bit from “Legolas combat” but not as bad as I expected.
The show is nicely exceeding my admittedly low expectations and I am sorry to hear others are not enjoying as I am.
I’m still greatly enjoying this show. I of course know who Elendil and Isildur go on to become thanks to the movies, but the rest is, aha, an open book to me.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I also happened to read Tolkien’s LOTR as a story about white good men and even whiter elves, with a Semitic dwarf sidekick, fighting against the “unlovely Mongol type” orcs and brown had people.
You quite literally lost the plot
Bottom line is... its only bad if western media has white people only in things. All other nations and cultures can have the media casting 100% same race shows and its never a problem..
I mean, it’s not like the Chinese famously cast white American actors like Matt Damon into their fantasy movies to broaden the appeal.
Besides, this argument again hinges on confusing LOTR for some older culturally-specific mythology rather than a modern literary invention. Comparing it to Aladdin/Arabian Nights (which should actually be fairly diverse) , is disingenuous. Tolkien used older mythological terms as labels for his own creations; for example, his orcs were not sea monsters.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: Excellent set dressing and costuming across the board, except maybe the leather breastplates of the Numenorean sailors but the Royal Guard look good.
So it is leather!
I was having trouble with it last night and watched again this morning to try to confirm one way or the other, I'm not used to metal or leather being depicted that light tan colour and have been trying to puzzle out exactly what it was supposed to be - leaned towards leather due to it being less shiny than the polished metal breastplates of the guards on the land.
Good episode overall, we're still doing a lot of exposition for a show with only 8 episodes this season, but we've easily passed the 3-episode test. They managed to keep me interested in all three running narratives, the dwarves notably didn't steal the show like they did last episode, if only by virtue of not appearing - looks like they're going to have more focus next episode and I wonder if the plan going forward will generally involve them juggling three of their four parallel plot threads each episode?
Observations:
Spoiler:
-Numenor is as gorgeous as the previews have made it out to be - I don't know why but I was surprised the map of it we saw is the one Christopher Tolkien drew.
-We're once again seeing a younger, brasher, meaner Galadriel - Morfydd Clark does a great job of infusing a mix of pride and angry urgency into everything she does here and I'm here for it.
-I still feel to some extent she would work better as an original character.
-I get what they're going for with the riding scene, but it smashes through sentimental awe and lands squarely in corny territory. For all the talk of it it's incredibly brief.
-Speaking of original characters: I was dreading the 'hero character captured and enslaved' segments of this story the most, since they cover a lot of predictable beats, but Arondir continues to be a stand-out performance by Ismael Cordova that, and coupled with their willingness to be shockingly violent with the orcs and get on with an aggressive escape plan I think I ended up liking it better than the Numenor plotline.
-Meanwhile the Harfoot plot thread is my surprise favourite. Did not see that coming.
-Nori is confirmed to be short for Elanor - meaning the harfoots have encountered elves at some point (and not a dwarf named Nori travelling thorugh time, alas)
-A surprising show of depth from Sadoc, not only in refusing to de-caravan Nori or her family over what she did, but even when she told him all the weird stuff surrounding Meteor Man he took it at face value and thought about how it lined up with the legends, rather than just accuse her of lying like his character archetype would do. He also chewed her out for not reading the page herself right away if it was so important she had to steal it.
-I had my doubts that Meteor Man was Gandalf, but I'm warming to the idea more and more as it goes on. I swear I heard a little Sauron whisper from LotR when the page caught fire - I think this and the dead fireflies from last episode are because Sauron is already exhibiting some kind of control over the land.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: Excellent set dressing and costuming across the board, except maybe the leather breastplates of the Numenorean sailors but the Royal Guard look good.
So it is leather!
I was having trouble with it last night and watched again this morning to try to confirm one way or the other, I'm not used to metal or leather being depicted that light tan colour and have been trying to puzzle out exactly what it was supposed to be - leaned towards leather due to it being less shiny than the polished metal breastplates of the guards on the land.
Good episode overall, we're still doing a lot of exposition for a show with only 8 episodes this season, but we've easily passed the 3-episode test. They managed to keep me interested in all three running narratives, the dwarves notably didn't steal the show like they did last episode, if only by virtue of not appearing - looks like they're going to have more focus next episode and I wonder if the plan going forward will generally involve them juggling three of their four parallel plot threads each episode?
I am guessing it was leather. Or supposed to be leather. And I can not exactly say what it was that really bothered me except that it did not look thick enough or rigid enough to be the quality leather I have seen first hand from several prop makers in the UK. They looked like costume pieces rather than actual armor. So far in my opinion the weapon props have generally been better than the armor props. But then I may have an overly critical eye as I have a number of prop makers for mates. ?
As for your observations, overall I quite agree. I think the only place you and I deviate Captain Joystick is that…
Spoiler:
I think prefer the Numenorean plotline over the prisoner plotline. I would have preferred a Human prisoner to have saved the Captain from the Warg with the thrown spear after Arondil was unable to delay the Warg longer. I like when characters make some mistakes or otherwise fail. Which is why I like the escape attempt failing. I did not expect that to happen.
Otherwise I am with you on all your other points. It is a pleasant experience to read someone feeling the same about the show as me and Mrs. GG.
If by ''accurately adapting'' you mean manipulating then yes, he was. It is a proof of what I wrote earlier - one just need to ask the ''wrong'' question to be accused of being a racist.
It’s a call back to earlier in the thread. It’s also a comment on the accidental subtext of your posts that you seem to be unaware of.
Explain then both (to what it is a call back, and what hidden subtext I am unaware of) please.
I try and do the call back bit, it was very funny.
Earlier in the thread that really should die, there was extensive discussion about canon, what sources were used and adaptions made for drama, practicality and bias/agenda. How accurate to the texts, and which texts, is the series. Here we have a post "He was just accurately adapting your text." that refers back to that in a way many people find amusing. Self reference being one of the highlights for many fans of stuff like fantasy, the MCU, etc. Many peoples reactions here would have been similar, wry amusement that the reference was made to earlier discussion and misused (as per the earlier discussion about the adaption not being accurate) in a way that argued against your point echoing much of the the earlier assertion and argument about the text and the series.
Regarding the armor of the Numenorean sailors, while i doubt the showrunners are going to explain it as such, I think it kinda looks like and could be a kind of Brigandine. Steel armor covered in cloth/leather. Usually, Brigandine is segmented but there isn't any particular reason you couldn't have a large breastplate that was covered in leather.
That would be a practical thing for armor of people on ships too, since you want to keep that salt water off the steel. Coating it in treated leather/cloth could keep it from corroding. Pure leather armor is pretty rare historically since leather is quite expensive, so it was usually limited to straps, belts, etc... Metal or cloth armor is also much easier to repair than leather. But it could make sense as a Brigandine type armor specifically designed for seafarers.
Gert wrote: I'm really digging (hehe) the designs of the feral Orcs we're seeing.
Me too! They are generally familiar enough for anyone who knows orcs from PJ’s films but they definitely have their own distinctive look. The semi-translucent snake-skin (???) cloak protecting the one orc from the sun was a pretty awesome idea.
Oh wow and boy is it ever satisfying to see them get got, too! They are some truly vile baddies.
I liked every part of episode 3 but surely my favorite is the introduction of Numenor, which was amazing. They got it exactly right IMO; some kind of Mycenaean version of Rome. Elendil is an excellent character so far and Isildur shows a lot of promise. I continue to love Galadriel, she is my absolute favorite. It was nice to see her recognized (“THE Galadriel??”). Very, very interesting set up for Halbrand. Some are speculating he is actually Sauron. Some are comparing him to Aragorn. For my part, I wonder whether there is a certain ring (ahem, one out of nine) in his future …
Orcs, I think thanks to GW and WoW but also a bit of DnD too - have been in the "we're the bad comic relief" for a long while. Getting truly grim and nasty orcs is good!
The orc scene is E2 was essentially a horror movie. It was super effective. After that intro, I wondered how they would keep orcs so scary when it wasn’t a one-off movie monster but an army of ‘em, and the answer is that they are absolutely depraved.
I have not yet watched episode 3, so I might be wrong on this. Some of the armour looks like high tin alloyed bronze, which historically was used as an alternative to silver. The brighter polished surface was highly regarded, but more importantly it was more corrosion resistant. It was mainly decorative but in a fantasy setting, decorative armour is often more commonplace. It also has a better reflective surface and was much more common further East because that meant it didn't heat the wearer as much. Thanks to it's resonant quality it's also used in metal bowls and bells for music.
However, if I'm thinking of the same armour you're referring to, it is the cream armour from some of the other promo material? That the sailors are wearing. It's neither leather nor metal. It's in fact linen armour similar to the kind numerous military forces used in warmer climes. Surprisingly tough, can take an arrow and sword swing just as well as anything else. Much lighter, cheaper and above all, not going to overheat you.
Given the Byzantine aesthetic of the Numenoreans, this would be the likely material which is very cool as it's rare to see it in media.
Again though, I've yet to watch episode 3 so I'm just basing it on what you folks have said in the thread and what I'd seen in the promos!
Is it just me or are they packing the entirety of the second age into the series? Elendil and sons are the very tale end of the age. But if that’s the case, all the rings have been forged, the numenorians all all over Middle Earth, gates of moria shut. Etc.
Before this episode I would have placed the timeline circa 1000-1500 SA. But now it looks more like it’s at 3000- 3319 SA.
Granted, it’s been a few years since my last reading of the Silmarillion, so I’m a bit fuzzy on the details, but I’m having issues with the timeline.
I am, however, enjoying it. (Even if I need to kick my pedantic lore nerd self down occasionally)
Well episode 3 has lost me entirely. First two epsiodes were dull and none of the characters have held me at all. In fact Galadriel has easily become the worst character in it, which is sad considering she's the focus. That's enough.
1) There is no world wide conspiracy. There are bigots that exist and the bigots do and say bigot things.
2) Did you not pay attention with Sandman and House of the dragon?
You have to be shoving your head into some pretty deep holes to not at least hear about this crap happening Every Single Time.
1. Of course that there is no world wide conspiracy. It is exactly what I am laughing at here.
2. Do you even bother to read what I wrote? To quote myself ''Both House of the Dragon and the Sandman faced a racistic backlash, and still there are much much more positive reviews than negative ones.'' Also even if I was not aware of that (is it mandatory to follow any social media gak show?), how does it changes that they are generally held as either good or very good shows, and TROP is not?
1) Sandman came out all at once. It's done. People know exactly what they were getting.
2) House of the Dragon isn't regarded as anything yet. It's too early to tell. I think most people are tentative with a bit of optimism.
3) The Rings of Power has the bulk of it's complaints coming from "The Usual Suspects" while being very early in it's release and being on one of the least popular streaming services.
4) Lets say everything wraps and yeah, the rings of power is the least popular of the 3. Look at the criticisms. Are they criticisms about a non white cast? I think it's fair to remove those from the equation.
Say what you will, but I just watched the first episode of HotD and it blows all 3 episodes of RoP out of the water by itself. It's storytelling done right with respect to source material and descriptions.
- Max
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m still greatly enjoying this show. I of course know who Elendil and Isildur go on to become thanks to the movies, but the rest is, aha, an open book to me.
Conversely, this show has won me over. I went in expecting to like all the Weta designs (as I did from the previews) and not really liking the show. Thankfully, I like both a lot.
Just finished watching ep3. Really enjoyed it save for a couple of issues. Galadriel seems too smart to openly antagonize the queen like that. She already felt the unfriendliness toward her, she's got no backup, no one back home even knows where she is, it's her against an entire island but still she chooses to be as idiotically brash as possible. I mean this is the same person who jumped off a ship in the middle of the sea so she could swim back to middle earth so maybe it's in character? I love the actress, but I feel like the writers are doing her absolutely no favors.
My other big problem with this episode was Halbrand. They are way too on the nose with the Aragorn parallel. A reluctant, self doubting hero, from a line of lost kings, to a land in need of a leader? It's too much. It felt ridiculous.
The Harfoots and Arondir were faultless. I loved the warg, so brutal and creepy looking. The bloodshot eyes were a very nice touch. Numenor looked absolutely gorgeous, definitely felt like I was peering into another world there. Looking forward to ep4!
Nevelon wrote: Is it just me or are they packing the entirety of the second age into the series? Elendil and sons are the very tale end of the age. But if that’s the case, all the rings have been forged, the numenorians all all over Middle Earth, gates of moria shut. Etc.
Before this episode I would have placed the timeline circa 1000-1500 SA. But now it looks more like it’s at 3000- 3319 SA.
Granted, it’s been a few years since my last reading of the Silmarillion, so I’m a bit fuzzy on the details, but I’m having issues with the timeline.
I am, however, enjoying it. (Even if I need to kick my pedantic lore nerd self down occasionally)
It's not just you, they are.
Elendil and sons should be much later than this. They are really giving off a proto-atlantis/Rome vibe from numenor, which I like and agree with.
I also liked the statue of Earendil the Mariner, and the callback to him by the harfoot elder.
Two durins being alive, at the same time we're about to delve too greedily and too deep.
The dragon helm of turin was a nice Easter egg.
Disa having light mutton chops is a compromise on a fully bearded dwarf woman I can get behind.
creeping-deth87 wrote: Just finished watching ep3. Really enjoyed it save for a couple of issues. Galadriel seems too smart to openly antagonize the queen like that. She already felt the unfriendliness toward her, she's got no backup, no one back home even knows where she is, it's her against an entire island but still she chooses to be as idiotically brash as possible. I mean this is the same person who jumped off a ship in the middle of the sea so she could swim back to middle earth so maybe it's in character? I love the actress, but I feel like the writers are doing her absolutely no favors.
My other big problem with this episode was Halbrand. They are way too on the nose with the Aragorn parallel. A reluctant, self doubting hero, from a line of lost kings, to a land in need of a leader? It's too much. It felt ridiculous.
The Harfoots and Arondir were faultless. I loved the warg, so brutal and creepy looking. The bloodshot eyes were a very nice touch. Numenor looked absolutely gorgeous, definitely felt like I was peering into another world there. Looking forward to ep4!
To be fair, idiotically brash is like the key defining feature of the Noldor. These are the elves who thumbed their noses at the gods and left the undying lands in search of vengeance. There was even a crazy check, where a bunch of them realized how bad it was and turned back (not her). Another check when the guy who’s quest to get his shiny stones back they were on takes the boats and abandons most of those who stuck with him. Go home? Nope. March across the frozen lands of crushing ice and death. Yup.
Now Galadrial spent a big chunk of the 1st age chilling with the Sindaran elves, but she’s from the old, prideful, bit crazy part of Elfdom.
To be fair, idiotically brash is like the key defining feature of the Noldor. These are the elves who thumbed their noses at the gods and left the undying lands in search of vengeance. There was even a crazy check, where a bunch of them realized how bad it was and turned back (not her). Another check when the guy who’s quest to get his shiny stones back they were on takes the boats and abandons most of those who stuck with him. Go home? Nope. March across the frozen lands of crushing ice and death. Yup.
Now Galadrial spent a big chunk of the 1st age chilling with the Sindaran elves, but she’s from the old, prideful, bit crazy part of Elfdom.
Ehhhh, that was a part I wasn't so keen on. She may be prideful and a little brash, but she's not stupid. Or at least shouldn't be. She should have been more than capable of reading the room and knowing that she would need some diplomatic persuasion to get what she wanted. Sure maybe they SHOULD give her what she wants, but given that she is in no position to be demanding passage, and is in no position to take passage by force, it would have been better to take a tactful approach.
Which is another sign of poor skill on the part of the screenwriters, they are clearly very weak in terms of dialogue and how to properly write characters. They think an intelligent prideful characters would just go demanding everything, like they had happen. Instead, they should have written her to be asking for a favor, but struggling to swallow her pride and disdain for the lack of hospitality. Same end result, but the latter method feels more organic and makes the characters have more depth. Which really is the biggest issue here. They've plotted out a decent enough overall story in bullet point format, but they're not really qualified to flesh the dialogue out properly.
Just compare the dialogue between House of the Dragon and RoP. It's just another level in HotD and just highlights the amateurish skill of the writers in RoP. You'd think money could buy some decent writing, but Galadrial's lines in particular are cheesy B movie grade dialogue.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I mean this is the same person who jumped off a ship in the middle of the sea so she could swim back to middle earth so maybe it's in character?
I keep seeing people say this. “It’s so dumb that they have her think she’s going to swim back!” Yeah, that is obviously dumb. So your next thought should probably be “that can’t be what the scene is actually about then.”
Because it OBVIOUSLY isn’t! Galadriel is on the doorstep of elven Heaven. She is not choosing between going to Middle-earth and Valinor as if these are merely places. She’s choosing between the afterlife and death. At this moment, she would rather drown in the ocean than go to literal Heaven. This is rife with irony on purpose because it’s interesting — Galadriel is caught in an ambiguous place between Good and Evil. Rejecting Heaven is prideful to the point of blasphemy; is her obsession with vengeance twisting her and corrupting her, as Gil-Galad and Elrond fear? Then again, there is dramatic irony because we the audience know she is literally correct: Sauron is coming back to plunge the world into darkness. Does someone who simply abandons Middle-earth to that terrible fate deserve to go to Heaven? Also, Galadriel has a deeper faith. If the name Ulmo means anything to you, it’s worth thinking over.
creeping-deth87 wrote: My other big problem with this episode was Halbrand. They are way too on the nose with the Aragorn parallel. A reluctant, self doubting hero, from a line of lost kings, to a land in need of a leader? It's too much. It felt ridiculous.
I suspect the parallel is being set up to be subverted in the long-term. He may, with Galadriel’s encouragement, become the King of the Southlands and a heroic figure by the end of this season. But what might happen after? Might he be offered a ring perhaps?
Nevelon wrote: To be fair, idiotically brash is like the key defining feature of the Noldor.
Very true. And let’s also not forget that this show is taking great pains to demonstrate the mechanics of tension and misunderstanding between Elves and Dwarves and Men. For Galadriel and many (most?) Elves, Men come in two categories: (1) ones who served Morgoth and (2) a much, much smaller portion who didn’t BUT quickly (from an elven POV) grew prideful and ripe for corruption. But the show takes a very interesting turn in E3 by depicting her as contemptuous of Numenorean pride and yet developing trust of and even hope in wretched Halbrand, descended from those who swore blood oaths to the Enemy, in the context of discovering that some Numenoreans have held faith with the House of Elros.
Grey Templar wrote: She should have been more than capable of reading the room and knowing that she would need some diplomatic persuasion to get what she wanted.
You suggested that Galadriel should have swallowed her pride and been diplomatic. We already saw that scene in E1 in the court of Gil-Galad where she is contrasted with Elrond the diplomat. And we see her in this scene try the same thing again. She’s even willing to kneel before Ar-Miriel at Halbrand’s suggestion. She then says that Elendil saved them from certain death and states: “All we ask is that Numenor continue his mercy and grant us ship’s passage to Middle-earth.” This is very diplomatic language. Pharazon immediately retorts that “it has been generations” since they have made “such a journey on an Elf’s behalf.” Ummm … did he not just hear her say she is Finarfin’s daughter?? What are a few “generations” of Men compared to the life of Galadriel? Especially when all that is asked is a boat ride? And, as we know (since the writers were competent enough to set it up from E1) Galadriel is no diplomat and this Man’s presumptuousness irritates her. “It is because of Elves that you were given this island. Surely you can spare a few planks and rudder.” Oh boy, now Miriel feels the need to argue that they earned what they have, and both Galadriel and Miriel cannot help themselves from getting into it. It becomes clear that the two are speaking from completely different perspectives and this is going nowhere good. At that point, Halbrand intervenes. This is crucial. The show is about misunderstandings between the races of Middle-earth; in this example, a Man steps in to mediate communication between Elves and Men.
Reading this scene as Galadriel being dumb totally misses that Elves are not just extra-wise human beings. They are beholden to their own point of view and cannot easily imagine that of another race of people, who experience time in a completely different way. Even Elrond the diplomat cannot initially understand Durin’s resentment. Difference in perspective is not a trivial problem in TRoP, to be overcome by a modicum of patience. It is the central problem of the whole narrative.
No, it very obviously is, because she instantly goes into her Olympic swimmer routine on the way back to Middle Earth. The scene could have been played they way you try to frame it, had we seen her simply give up and drift. That's very much not the case.
Let the writers take responsibility for the nonsense they put out.
No, I’m not saying she is trying to commit suicide. I am saying that she would rather risk death with “risk” being a massive understatement.
Maybe you are not too familiar with the legendarium but E3 also sheds light on this with quite a few allusions. When Galadriel and Halbrand are presented to Miriel, Galadriel pointedly says they met by chance on the open sea. Later, speaking to him privately through the bars of his cell (and after learning more about Elendil and the Faithful and Tar-Palantir, not to mention Halbrand himself) she has changed her mind: “Ours was no chance meeting. Not destiny nor fate, nor any of the words Men use to speak of the forces they lack the conviction to name. Ours was the work of something greater.” There is another allusion, too: the Numenoreans have a saying that “the sea is always right.”
Manchu wrote: No, I’m not saying she is trying to commit suicide. I am saying that she would rather risk death with “risk” being a massive understatement.
So she still thinks she has a chance? No, not buying it. You need a lot more setup and character work for that kind of last stand moment to work without any backing dialogue.
Manchu wrote: “Ours was no chance meeting. Not destiny nor fate, nor any of the words Men use to speak of the forces they lack the conviction to name. Ours was the work of something greater.”
I haven't seen the episode. Is this supposed to be an allusion to Ulmo's intervention? Other than not actually hinting at it in the moment (the Valar were fairly direct with their interventions), it's a decent idea. I kinda like it.
Still doesn't change my thoughts on Galadriel's actions.
Why not? Elves are not humans. If you can live to be 10,000 years old and see entire ages of the world pass then what's a decade, or even a century of swimming? It would certainly be an extreme feat and choosing to reject heaven in favor of hoping to make it back to land is an act of desperation but it's not completely out of the question IMO that an immortal superhuman could achieve such a feat of legend. And it can't be that far to go because she immediately runs into shipwreck survivors and primitive sailing ships aren't generally in the habit of sailing off thousands of miles into the open ocean.
Do we even have a canon distance for the trip between the shores of the elven kingdom and the gateway to heaven? Is it even a physical journey, or is it more of a symbolic thing where heading out to sea with the intent to leave Middle Earth very quickly opens the gate for the ship to pass through? It's clearly presented in RoP as a symbolic thing, as the ship starts to pass into heaven despite having nothing but open ocean in front of it.
Yeah, for content that’s supposedly hostile to tradition it’s pretty shocking how Galadriel’s line there comes across as a stark rebuke of agnostic prevarication.
Other than Melkor, Ulmo is the only Vala to have much to do with Middle-earth.
And thus it was by the power of Ulmo that even under the darkness of Melkor life coursed still through many secret lodes, and the Earth did not die; and to all who were lost in that darkness or wandered far from the light of the Valar the ear of Ulmo was ever open; nor has he ever forsaken Middle-earth, and whatsoever may since have befallen of ruin or of change he has not ceased to take thought for it, and will not until the end of days.
Is it not the basis of any saga to complete epic feats beyond the normal human reason? Some ludicrous swimming attempt is part of numerous old Norse sagas. It's pretty on the mark for something Tolkein really.
I mean you can't be arguing it's not Tolkein on one hand and dismiss things like that which are evocative of the very premise of Tolkein's work.
Look upon these early episodes as the Saga of Galadriel. How her early days as a hard nosed, icy fighter ready her for a life as a strong ruler.
You make some great points Manchu and caused me to rethink my take on some of those scenes now. Thanks for that.
Mrs. GG did not like seeing Galadriel making such obvious diplomatic mistakes with the Queen but I saw it as Manchu has articulated. I felt like they were showing that kind of almost instant dislike two people can have for each other.
And Galadriel‘s behavior was on par with the behavior I have seen some criminals display in the face of overwhelming circumstances on arrest or once they hit custody. It can fly in the face of logic to both the officers and the solicitors present. As if the person seems unable to comprehend the reality of the situation… but I think it can also be a case of “who dares, wins” bravado.
Again in the real world, I have seen bluffs using that kind of behavior work, such as the time I was alone and I bluffed my way out of a tactically unwinnable situation in a flat full of violent criminals threatening me when I responded to a noise complaint. I was a touch more diplomatic but then I had to serve as my own Halbarad so to speak. But there was about as much chance of me fighting my way out of that situation as Galadriel had… but both of us would also have been just as lost if we allowed ourselves to look like weak victims that could be quietly disposed of. Even the comment by the bearded advisor (I forget his name) reminded me of some of he jests made by some of those criminals that night as I negotiated directly with their nominal leader, a well known drug dealer in the area. Of course my situation was a bit different in that I knew my audience better than Galadriel knew hers but the scene did not break my suspension of disbelief. And the later dialogue of Elendil at the docks matched my thoughts on it as well. It was easy for me to identify with and empathize with these characters.
I have not seen the new GoT series so I can not compare but yes at times the dialogue is a bit off but other times it works quite well and so far I am not hearing any very obviously contemporary slang, the kind of thing that often pulls me out of my immersion.
As for the Numenorean sailor breastplates, yes I suppose they could be a form of brigandine but they did not look like it to me. Too thin and too flexible looking for that. They also did not look like they generally fit properly either, a common flaw seen in costuming extras.
Edit: Olthannon your point about epic swimming being on point sagas Tolkien looked to is in my opinion… on point. Great way to help me better frame that scene in my mind.
And so far the best still I can find showing the sailors's armor that I am talking about. I understand why they may not want the basic armor to look as fancy as Elendil's and in the still they look better than I remember but again I think it may how they moved in those breasplates having myself worn a number of different types of armor both historical and contemporary. Nor does the armor look “lived in” enough for veterans.
Why not? Elves are not humans. If you can live to be 10,000 years old and see entire ages of the world pass then what's a decade, or even a century of swimming? It would certainly be an extreme feat and choosing to reject heaven in favor of hoping to make it back to land is an act of desperation but it's not completely out of the question IMO that an immortal superhuman could achieve such a feat of legend. And it can't be that far to go because she immediately runs into shipwreck survivors and primitive sailing ships aren't generally in the habit of sailing off thousands of miles into the open ocean.
Do we even have a canon distance for the trip between the shores of the elven kingdom and the gateway to heaven? Is it even a physical journey, or is it more of a symbolic thing where heading out to sea with the intent to leave Middle Earth very quickly opens the gate for the ship to pass through? It's clearly presented in RoP as a symbolic thing, as the ship starts to pass into heaven despite having nothing but open ocean in front of it.
I have no idea the distances involved, but it is/was just a physical place you can sail to. Humans actually invade the place at one point, or are set to do so, and god is like “Yeah, no, we’ll not be allowing that” and bends the previously flat world into a globe so they can’t reach it, except for Elves for whom the world is still flat, which is why they can see so far.
At this point in time of the story Valinor is still a place that anyone can sail/swim to. Not until the fall of Numenor does that change. There is also an island full of elves who live within sight of it’s shores who she might have been able to get help from, although that would take a lot more diplomacy then she’s shown. Last time she was there was for the kinslaying.
It did bother me a little that she was so undiplomatic. She should know how to behave in court better then that, despite her blood. But Some of the arguments made here make sense. A slight character assassination to help lay the groundwork for the themes of the show.
When all of the gods left the elves to there own devices in the first age, the god of the seas and waters was one of the few who still helped out. There is a running theme where there is life and safety in water. It would make sense, that both the elves, and the numanorians (who’s roots are in the first age and an island living people) would put a lot of faith in the happening of the sea.
just watched the second episode. I agree the scene between elrond and durin works quite well, a stark reminder of the difference in mindset between them. I also really liked the dwarven hold, it felt good to see it in its prime.
personally,i WAS leaning on the stranger being one of the wizards, but according to the wiki, the Wizards are not sent to middle earth until around 1000 years into the Third Age, which is clearly a LONG way into the future....which kinda means it has to be Annatar, the fair guise of Sauron, doesnt it?
Depends where in the timeline we are. He could be teaching elves to smith, prisoner in Numanor, or out and about. The stranger shouldn’t be one of the istari, but who knows.
I was leaning towards proto-Gandalf at first, but there's too many instances that are either double-edged or outright negative for that really to fit now.
loaded up amazon prime to watch ep 3, and came across a splash page which had the following image of Elendil, in that tan-coloured armour....
i dont know, is seems to be leather, but im not 100% sure either.
the stuff the crew seem to be wearing is either metal (maybe a copper/bronze type, to better deal with the effects of seawater?), or very heavily lacquered leather (its almost plastic level shiney in the opening shots of the deck)
edit:
just realised that the "southlands" the wood elf guy and his girlfriend are in are Mordor, or at least the area known in the third age as Mordor......
edit 2: ....which the episode makes perfectly clear later on. dammit. I quite like the hobbit festival, it has strong european "folk" harvest festival feels.
Nevelon wrote: Depends where in the timeline we are. He could be teaching elves to smith, prisoner in Numanor, or out and about. The stranger shouldn’t be one of the istari, but who knows.
I figured Sauron or another major spirit having been thrown out of "heaven" but they are definately trying to make him act like gandalf - but on the other hand the glowflies died and it appeared to be connected to his rune scrawling that the Hobbit guy had his leg injured.
However I am not big on LOR lore. IIRC Sauron, the Balrogs and Ungolient (?) are Maia but not sure if any others fell?
I didn’t quite follow the bit in Ep.3 with Elendil and Isildur; they were talking about Anarion, but it almost seemed like he was dead or missing? Can anyone clarify for please?!
Jadenim wrote: I didn’t quite follow the bit in Ep.3 with Elendil and Isildur; they were talking about Anarion, but it almost seemed like he was dead or missing? Can anyone clarify for please?!
Quick scan of the Silmarillion shows no details of him prior to the fall on Numenor. Whatever they are doing on the show is their making, or pulled from another source.
Jadenim wrote: I didn’t quite follow the bit in Ep.3 with Elendil and Isildur; they were talking about Anarion, but it almost seemed like he was dead or missing? Can anyone clarify for please?!
He's not in the show yet, but they wanted to acknowledge he exists, is how I read that scene.
I have hopes that meteor man is one of the blue istari.
Numenor looks great, some costuming choices (Tar-miriel, who they are not properly naming) and elendil 's first armor look. The later surcoat looks excellent.
It was pointed out earlier that someone had not seen HoTD to compare. I would like to note HBO has the first episode available for free on their YouTube channel.
They are apparently quite confident with it, and id say against RoP it wins.
The first episode is really great in capturing how a prequel story should be introduced.
Nevelon wrote: Depends where in the timeline we are. He could be teaching elves to smith, prisoner in Numanor, or out and about. The stranger shouldn’t be one of the istari, but who knows.
I figured Sauron or another major spirit having been thrown out of "heaven" but they are definately trying to make him act like gandalf - but on the other hand the glowflies died and it appeared to be connected to his rune scrawling that the Hobbit guy had his leg injured.
However I am not big on LOR lore. IIRC Sauron, the Balrogs and Ungolient (?) are Maia but not sure if any others fell?
I really don't think he's Sauron, unless we're just being majorly gaslighted and the story is just going to have no internal logic at all. It really wouldn't make sense for Sauron to be getting cast down now of all times. Since he's clearly been doing stuff in middle earth all this time, so how would have gotten anywhere to get thrown to earth as a meteor?
I think they're just making the stranger seem mysterious and spooky and give enough doubt as to his identity. I'm sure Adar will surely be Sauron in the next episode.
I'm beginning to think that Sauron was hidden by being in more than one place. We have a fallen king of the Southlands who is the "best blacksmith", a "father" of orcs and a seemingly "empty" heavenly spirit.
Sauron's sigil is a map, and there's a star map - at least two of the characters are searching for something.
Probably wrong, but the orc fused with the rock in ep 1 makes me think that Sauron was experimenting with binding things together...
As for Galadriel, she remains prideful in exile and disdainful of forgiveness until she passes the test with the One Ring late in the Third Age. In RoP, she is still closer to the princess of the Undying Lands who refused to give Feanor a lock of her hair.
Nevelon wrote: Depends where in the timeline we are. He could be teaching elves to smith, prisoner in Numanor, or out and about. The stranger shouldn’t be one of the istari, but who knows.
I figured Sauron or another major spirit having been thrown out of "heaven" but they are definately trying to make him act like gandalf - but on the other hand the glowflies died and it appeared to be connected to his rune scrawling that the Hobbit guy had his leg injured.
However I am not big on LOR lore. IIRC Sauron, the Balrogs and Ungolient (?) are Maia but not sure if any others fell?
I really don't think he's Sauron, unless we're just being majorly gaslighted and the story is just going to have no internal logic at all. It really wouldn't make sense for Sauron to be getting cast down now of all times. Since he's clearly been doing stuff in middle earth all this time, so how would have gotten anywhere to get thrown to earth as a meteor?
I think they're just making the stranger seem mysterious and spooky and give enough doubt as to his identity. I'm sure Adar will surely be Sauron in the next episode.
There's always the possibility that they're "doing a Westworld" and showing us two stories from two different time periods, so everything with the Harfoots is/has happening/ed before Gladys's story.
Nevelon wrote: Depends where in the timeline we are. He could be teaching elves to smith, prisoner in Numanor, or out and about. The stranger shouldn’t be one of the istari, but who knows.
I figured Sauron or another major spirit having been thrown out of "heaven" but they are definately trying to make him act like gandalf - but on the other hand the glowflies died and it appeared to be connected to his rune scrawling that the Hobbit guy had his leg injured.
However I am not big on LOR lore. IIRC Sauron, the Balrogs and Ungolient (?) are Maia but not sure if any others fell?
I really don't think he's Sauron, unless we're just being majorly gaslighted and the story is just going to have no internal logic at all. It really wouldn't make sense for Sauron to be getting cast down now of all times. Since he's clearly been doing stuff in middle earth all this time, so how would have gotten anywhere to get thrown to earth as a meteor?
I think they're just making the stranger seem mysterious and spooky and give enough doubt as to his identity. I'm sure Adar will surely be Sauron in the next episode.
There's always the possibility that they're "doing a Westworld" and showing us two stories from two different time periods, so everything with the Harfoots is/has happening/ed before Gladys's story.
IIRC Elrond and the Elf King saw the meteor fall at the same time he was watching Gladarial sail away so thats not going to work?
@manchu: Neither Ulmo nor Osse were implied in any of this while or before it happened. Galadriel's reference to higher powers only happened after the terribly convenient connection between Halbrand and the Mcguffin in the numenorean archives had been established. It was never part of her decision to leap from the boat. That she did for the reasons you explained quite beautifully, but she could have just refused to leave in the first place given her seemingly unrelenting conviction. I'm convinced that scene happened for other reasons, namely to show what the passage to valinor might look like and to contrive a chance meeting with Halbrand. Both a valid reasons within the context of a TV show, but let's not ascribe depth to where there is none.
The problem is that all the dialogue setting it up comes from the first scene of the episode (all that metaphorical talk about floating and sinking and the deep and the stars and light and darkness), which was unfortunately incomprehensible because of the terrible writing.
I really like this show but the first 20 minutes of E1 and especially the first 5-10 minutes are very badly written, and so subsequent scenes have inadequate framing. The scene with Galadriel jumping from the ship is the worst casualty.
I’m on the fence, but leaning on enjoying this show.
Galadriel’s wooden actress still makes me tune out, but she’s instrumental in introducing some intriguing characters.
Arondir’s story has been my favorite part so far. The actor who played Benjen Stark is Adar, so I’m really curious to see who/what he is. The casting call for the part of Adar :
A villain who can also evoke a deep sense of pathos and wounded / fallen nobility. Must possess a certain degree of physicality. Should seem middle-aged, though must also project a sense of timelessness.
Fallen or tortured elf in the thrall of Sauron?
Harfoots still do nothing for me, but the mystery of Meteor Man still keeps me paying attention to them.
I think this 3rd episode had more blood then the entire OG trilogy. Truly didn’t expect it.
Edit: Off-topic but semi-related :New trailer for Willow D+ series was recently released. What a time for fans of fantasy!
Momotaro wrote: I'm beginning to think that Sauron was hidden by being in more than one place. We have a fallen king of the Southlands who is the "best blacksmith", a "father" of orcs and a seemingly "empty" heavenly spirit.
Sauron's sigil is a map, and there's a star map - at least two of the characters are searching for something.
Probably wrong, but the orc fused with the rock in ep 1 makes me think that Sauron was experimenting with binding things together...
You might be on to something there; Sauron accidentally breaking himself into fragments during his binding experiments would be a good explanation as to why he disappeared and could give them a nice dramatic moment (probably end of the season) of the fragments reuniting. It would also make sense from a lore point of view, because Sauron is an Istari IIRC, so wasn’t originally evil; he got corrupted/seduced by Morgoth. So Adar could be the evil half and Meteor Man is his original innocence.
Note that they didn’t show Adar’s face in ep.3, what are the odds on it being the same actor?
On a similar vein, I’m curious as to why they didn’t show the Numenorean king, even when the Regent was talking to him?
Thats... no. No splitting of Sauron into fragments. That is kinda dumb and we've never had anything of the sort in the Legendarium.
He can take spirit form and travel quickly, but actually going full on multiple bodies and personalities is too far.
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Jadenim wrote: It would also make sense from a lore point of view, because Sauron is an Istari IIRC, so wasn’t originally evil; he got corrupted/seduced by Morgoth.
Not quite, Sauron is a Maiar. One of the lesser spirits of the Ainur. The Istari were the 5 Maiar spirits sent to Midde Earth by the Valar to counter the threat of Sauron, they would be known as Sarumon, Gandalf, Radagast, and the 2 Blue Wizards.
Sauron wasn't originally evil you are correct. And his evil was very different from Morgoths. He was originally a follower of Aule, so he was a peerless crafter. Obsessed with order and beauty, and this led to a desire for control. Sauron's evil is one of domination and control. Morgoth's was an evil of total destruction and corruption to no purpose out of spite for the inability to create his own vision of the world.
On a similar vein, I’m curious as to why they didn’t show the Numenorean king, even when the Regent was talking to him?
Just some end of the episode tension I think. I doubt there is a major plot reason for hiding his face for one episode. If they wait for a couple more, then maybe they're doing something weird.
Grey Templar wrote: Thats... no. No splitting of Sauron into fragments. That is kinda dumb and we've never had anything of the sort in the Legendarium.
He can take spirit form and travel quickly, but actually going full on multiple bodies and personalities is too far.
I agree, it'd be pretty hokey for all the 'potential Saurons' to turn out to be Sauron.
Though frankly I think people are overly fixated on finding Sauron in everything happening here (perhaps because Galadriel is so insistent on it!), Morgoth had other servants and so far and Adar is likely but one of them.
Meteor Man has a lot of ominous signs about him, but I suspect they're a red herring.
Halbrand has been shown able to make friends and influence people relatively easily, but I think if he was Sauron beating up those toughs in the alley would be counterproductive to his long-term plans.
Grey Templar wrote: Sauron wasn't originally evil you are correct. And his evil was very different from Morgoths. He was originally a follower of Aule, so he was a peerless crafter. Obsessed with order and beauty, and this led to a desire for control. Sauron's evil is one of domination and control. Morgoth's was an evil of total destruction and corruption to no purpose out of spite for the inability to create his own vision of the world.
Going to counter you on this one just because I'm listening to the Silmarillion again on audiobook (telling friends half-remembered Tolkien lore and how it may or may not be factoring into the series made me want to read it again) and Morgoth's desire to dominate others, whether it be his peers, the natural order of the universe, or the living beings that were foretold to exist is well established - and may well be the central tenant of Evil in the world.
Jadenim wrote: On a similar vein, I’m curious as to why they didn’t show the Numenorean king, even when the Regent was talking to him?
I know feth all about Tolkien lore, outside of the Peter Jackson films, but I'm half expecting the king to be in a "cursed/bewitched Theoden" type fugue that Gandalf broke him out of. Was it Saruman or Sauron that did that to Theoden in Two Towers?
Jadenim wrote: On a similar vein, I’m curious as to why they didn’t show the Numenorean king, even when the Regent was talking to him?
I know feth all about Tolkien lore, outside of the Peter Jackson films, but I'm half expecting the king to be in a "cursed/bewitched Theoden" type fugue that Gandalf broke him out of. Was it Saruman or Sauron that did that to Theoden in Two Towers?
If we are at the end of Numenor, as the inclusion of Ellindil & sons implies, the reigning king should be Ar-Pharazon.
Jadenim wrote: On a similar vein, I’m curious as to why they didn’t show the Numenorean king, even when the Regent was talking to him?
I know feth all about Tolkien lore, outside of the Peter Jackson films, but I'm half expecting the king to be in a "cursed/bewitched Theoden" type fugue that Gandalf broke him out of. Was it Saruman or Sauron that did that to Theoden in Two Towers?
Saruman. in the scene where Gandalf reveals hes been though the spin cycle and casts saruman out, you can here saruman speak through theoden (the lines "if i go, theoden dies!" and "Rohan is mine" is deffo Chrisopher Lee)
my guesses as to why they are holding back on Numenorean king (canonically, Tar-Palantir), is either because hes a highly recognisable actor and they want to keep the suprise "hey, its that guy!" factor for a big reveal later, the actor is paid on a "per episode" basis and they cut around him to save costs, or in this version, hes actaully already dead or missing & not present in the scene, and the Queen regent (Tar-Míriel, his daughter) is speaking to a painting, the crown jewels or some other "focus" of remembrance.
also, according to the extant lore, the bearded "advisor" to the queen we've seen, Ar-Pharazôn (her cousin), led a rebellion against the king, then seized power after the death of Tar-palantir (cause not stated, but at over 220 years of age, could well have been old age, or not...), forcibly married Miriel to legitimise his reign, lead the Numeroneans in thier interventions agianst sauron that captured him, then fell under his spell and led the numeroneans to attempt to sail to Valinor which caused the fall and flooding of his kingdom........ So, yhea, keep an eye on him.
Jadenim wrote: On a similar vein, I’m curious as to why they didn’t show the Numenorean king, even when the Regent was talking to him?
I know feth all about Tolkien lore, outside of the Peter Jackson films, but I'm half expecting the king to be in a "cursed/bewitched Theoden" type fugue that Gandalf broke him out of. Was it Saruman or Sauron that did that to Theoden in Two Towers?
Saruman. in the scene where Gandalf reveals hes been though the spin cycle and casts saruman out, you can here saruman speak through theoden (the lines "if i go, theoden dies!" and "Rohan is mine" is deffo Chrisopher Lee)
my guesses as to why they are holding back on Numenorean king (canonically, Tar-Palantir), is either because hes a highly recognisable actor and they want to keep the suprise "hey, its that guy!" factor for a big reveal later, the actor is paid on a "per episode" basis and they cut around him to save costs, or in this version, hes actaully already dead or missing & not present in the scene, and the Queen regent (Tar-Míriel, his daughter) is speaking to a painting, the crown jewels or some other "focus" of remembrance.
also, according to the extant lore, the bearded "advisor" to the queen we've seen, Ar-Pharazôn (her cousin), led a rebellion against the king, then seized power after the death of Tar-palantir (cause not stated, but at over 220 years of age, could well have been old age, or not...), forcibly married Miriel to legitimise his reign, lead the Numeroneans in thier interventions agianst sauron that captured him, then fell under his spell and led the numeroneans to attempt to sail to Valinor which caused the fall and flooding of his kingdom........ So, yhea, keep an eye on him.
I have hope to see the great fleet (Ar-pharazon's invasion fleet against Valinor), even if the rest of this show is a dumpster fire.
If we're putting money on Halbrand, the exiled king from the southlands, to wind up being a Nazgul in the end, and eventually we'll get to the Nine and their corruption by the Rings of Power, need some groundwork:
Is it correct that officially, we only know a few things about the Nazgul? Only one is named (Khamul, an Easterling king), three of them are former Kings of Numenor, and one of them who isn't Khamul founds Angmar (thereafter known as the Witch-King of Angmar)
That also makes me wonder if the not-Eminem character in the previews is actually Khamul or a herald from thereabouts (Amazon says "from far to the east—from the lands of Rhûn" about not-Eminem)
3 of the Nazgul were Numenoreans. They weren't necessarily Kings of Numenor. The Nazgul as a whole were, in life, great kings and sorcerers in their lifetimes.
The only named Nazgul is Khamul the Easterling, the 2nd in command after the Witch King. The Witch King's identity is unknown, as are the other 7, but it is likely that he was one of the 3 Numenorean Nazgul.
Honestly, the only evil Numenorean who cannot be a Nazgul is Ar-Pharazon. He is buried in Aman with his host till the end of the world, so it has to be someone else.
Jadenim wrote: On a similar vein, I’m curious as to why they didn’t show the Numenorean king, even when the Regent was talking to him?
I know feth all about Tolkien lore, outside of the Peter Jackson films, but I'm half expecting the king to be in a "cursed/bewitched Theoden" type fugue that Gandalf broke him out of. Was it Saruman or Sauron that did that to Theoden in Two Towers?
If we are at the end of Numenor, as the inclusion of Ellindil & sons implies, the reigning king should be Ar-Pharazon.
Well, this is what is more or less what is supposed to happen.
When Tar-Palantir dies without a male heir, Pharazon usurps the throne from Mirial and forces her to marry him. Which is when he names himself Ar-Pharazon. Which is taboo due to them being cousins.
I do think they kinda made him a little too old, he shouldn't be going grey yet.
Grey Templar wrote: 3 of the Nazgul were Numenoreans. They weren't necessarily Kings of Numenor. The Nazgul as a whole were, in life, great kings and sorcerers in their lifetimes.
The only named Nazgul is Khamul the Easterling, the 2nd in command after the Witch King. The Witch King's identity is unknown, as are the other 7, but it is likely that he was one of the 3 Numenorean Nazgul.
Honestly, the only evil Numenorean who cannot be a Nazgul is Ar-Pharazon. He is buried in Aman with his host till the end of the world, so it has to be someone else.
Jadenim wrote: On a similar vein, I’m curious as to why they didn’t show the Numenorean king, even when the Regent was talking to him?
I know feth all about Tolkien lore, outside of the Peter Jackson films, but I'm half expecting the king to be in a "cursed/bewitched Theoden" type fugue that Gandalf broke him out of. Was it Saruman or Sauron that did that to Theoden in Two Towers?
If we are at the end of Numenor, as the inclusion of Ellindil & sons implies, the reigning king should be Ar-Pharazon.
Well, this is what is more or less what is supposed to happen.
When Tar-Palantir dies without a male heir, Pharazon usurps the throne from Mirial and forces her to marry him. Which is when he names himself Ar-Pharazon. Which is taboo due to them being cousins.
I do think they kinda made him a little too old, he shouldn't be going grey yet.
I'm 30 in 2 and a half months. I have had gray hairs showing in my beard and hair for the last 6 months
I'm 30 in 2 and a half months. I have had gray hairs showing in my beard and hair for the last 6 months
well, Ar-Pharazôn is supposed to be as old as Tar-Míriel, who appears to be much younger in this version.
Personally, i'm leaning towards Tal Palantir being already dead, and Pharazon is running things "behind the scenes". the timeline here is already quite divergent form the traditional version. the Titular rings of power, that clearly have not yet been forged, were made around 1590 of the Second Age, but miriel wasnt born until 3117, and I think we would have noticed that Galadriel was walking around wearing Nenya if she was already a Ringbearer.
clearly, they have decided to compress the timeline to make a more interesting story.
Grey Templar wrote: 3 of the Nazgul were Numenoreans. They weren't necessarily Kings of Numenor. The Nazgul as a whole were, in life, great kings and sorcerers in their lifetimes.
The only named Nazgul is Khamul the Easterling, the 2nd in command after the Witch King. The Witch King's identity is unknown, as are the other 7, but it is likely that he was one of the 3 Numenorean Nazgul.
Honestly, the only evil Numenorean who cannot be a Nazgul is Ar-Pharazon. He is buried in Aman with his host till the end of the world, so it has to be someone else.
Jadenim wrote: On a similar vein, I’m curious as to why they didn’t show the Numenorean king, even when the Regent was talking to him?
I know feth all about Tolkien lore, outside of the Peter Jackson films, but I'm half expecting the king to be in a "cursed/bewitched Theoden" type fugue that Gandalf broke him out of. Was it Saruman or Sauron that did that to Theoden in Two Towers?
If we are at the end of Numenor, as the inclusion of Ellindil & sons implies, the reigning king should be Ar-Pharazon.
Well, this is what is more or less what is supposed to happen.
When Tar-Palantir dies without a male heir, Pharazon usurps the throne from Mirial and forces her to marry him. Which is when he names himself Ar-Pharazon. Which is taboo due to them being cousins.
I do think they kinda made him a little too old, he shouldn't be going grey yet.
Ah, that could be why they didn’t show the King; he could already be dead and she’s covering up acting as regent to avoid giving up power / handing over power to Pharazon?
They may have made him older just to ramp up the creepiness level.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I started going grey around the age of 22. At least, that’s when I first noticed it following a severe haircut.
It always shocks me how quickly many white people age sometimes. I'm lucky enough to have the Asian gene that keeps us looking younger than we actually are. Not great if you want to go to bars but I don't drink so that's not really a problem. Works out for when I want a student discount and I still have my school ID though!
clearly, they have decided to compress the timeline to make a more interesting story.
The primary reason driving the timeline compression is the showrunners not wanting to re-cast the non-Elven actors every season.
understandable, and frankly im not bothered so long as the story is good. im just pointing out that these changes limit our ability to predict the exact flow of the series by looking at the extant lore, as they are changing that for (perfectly sensible) reasons. However, the "splash page" that had the shot of Elendil i shared above described Miriel as "bearing a terrible secret that looms over her entire people".
We've already seen a few shots in the teasers of a massed cavalry charge by the Numenoreans, (apparently, heavy cav was always a distinctly Mannish phenomenon according to tolkein), which would lead me to assume a intervention into some major battle is going to happen this season.
it will be intresting to see how they play this out and which events they are going to choose to cover over the 5 seasons. Im going with :
the forging of the rings, and corruption of the 9 ringwraiths,
the War of the Elves and Sauron (that overuns and destroys the current elf kingdom of Eregion, but is saved last minute by Numenoreans intervention),
then the events leading up to and including the fall of Numenor is pretty much a given,
as is the establishing of Gondor and Arnor,
and i would assume the finale would be the War of the Last Alliance, that starts the Third Age and the LOTR trilogy proper.
I am in no way complaining about the current conversations/speculations. However, do we want to do a book events that haven’t happened in the show yet in spoilers thing similar to what was done for Game of Thrones?
I'm 30 in 2 and a half months. I have had gray hairs showing in my beard and hair for the last 6 months
Well, me too, but these are still Numenoreans. Even at 137ish years old when he seized the Throne he should look like a dude in his mid 40s. He is also described as being notably tall, good looking,and harkening back to the early days of Numenoreans in his physical appearance. He was also king for 64 years before the downfall.
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AduroT wrote: I am in no way complaining about the current conversations/speculations. However, do we want to do a book events that haven’t happened in the show yet in spoilers thing similar to what was done for Game of Thrones?
The Silmarillion was published in 1977. Spoiler period is long gone.
AduroT wrote: I am in no way complaining about the current conversations/speculations. However, do we want to do a book events that haven’t happened in the show yet in spoilers thing similar to what was done for Game of Thrones?
Spoiler: Sauron makes not two, not three, but ONE ring to rule them all, and it's a bad thing for everyone else with rings.
Sorry, couldn't resist, sorry if that spoils it for you.
AduroT wrote: I am in no way complaining about the current conversations/speculations. However, do we want to do a book events that haven’t happened in the show yet in spoilers thing similar to what was done for Game of Thrones?
I don't think its necessary - strictly speaking relevant events from the books are critical to well known story elements from Lord of the Rings already, and whether or not the show is faithful to those events is largely up in the air. Do people who are watching the show without having read the Silmarillion or say the books published by Christopher Tolkien find it disruptive?
FWIW the Silmarillion describes these events from a million miles up in prose and style that more closely mimics the Bible so between the showrunners taking liberties with it and the individual reader's tendency to come away with a different interpretation of it there's a good chance these predictions will be way off anyway.
Definitely a feeling of escalation. As someone being told these tales for the first time, I feel the first three were wisely spent setting the scene. And part of episode 4, too.
I’m absolutely loving this show. And most impressive? Decent Scottish accents, and not necessarily from Scottish actors.
That may seem a petty thing to most, and fair enough. But as a Scot, hearing my nation’s notable accent butchered has always got on my tits. It’s in the vowels for the most part, so it’s not terribly hard to get right. Well, I mean obviously it is given the long history of Crap Scottish Accents In Media. But it shouldn’t be.
Also really loving the design of the Orcs. Really wishing GW had a license for this. But then…I’m not currently aware of anyone else having that particular slice o’license, so maybe never say never?
Mrs. GG and I just finished episode 4. Some looser writing than I would have preferred but we enjoyed HBO's Rome with its flaws so this is doing fine. I quite like the look of the Numenorean Royal Guard, who by the way got considerably less dialogue than even the lowest of the Orcs. Nor did those Royal Guards come across as very competent. Anyway… decent enough show that the episode seemed to fly by and left us wanting more.
Yeah. The Dwarf Hold is amazing. I’m chuffed it also ties into the style of architecture shown in the films, as seeing them bustling and full of life really adds to the doldrums we see them in much later.
Like having explored a decaying industrial building, then seeing film of its heyday.
well, watching it now, i think its solidified a thought i had in my head last week: this isnt the same Galadriel we know form the Third Age...but it IS the person that Third Age Galadriel was scared of, when she was offered the One Ring....
I quite like the look of the Numenorean Royal Guard, who by the way got considerably less dialogue than even the lowest of the Orcs.
indeed, its quite reminiscent of the Guards of the Fountain Court of Gondor. clearly Elendil and Isildur modelled their equipment after the royal guards uniforms.
discussion of specific plot points
Spoiler:
I am not sure of Adar. i do not think hes Suaron himself, just another servant of him. The Beleriand he speaks of is a land lost to the sea during the First Age, about three thousand years prior to the show). he might be some type of corrupted elf, seeking to restore what was lost.
So, in another departure form the old lore, palantir is still alive, but not able to rule. The rebellion that ended his life has been changed to a soft deposition, which works well enough, and i would assume that Pharazôn will continue to act has he has, as the "populist" chancellor until such time as the old king dies and he then makes a bid for power himself.
I must say, having a immortal elf give a sermon on mortality to a mortal dwarf being seems...condescending, almost arrogant? I don't know, it struck something of an off chord for me. I quite liked the dwarven singing, though. given that several of the Rings of Power are discribed as being Mithril, I would assume the "secret" gets out, and the dwarves (once they devine the purpose of the forge they are making), use their access and control of supply to force the elves to make the 7 rings for them.
It's interesting to see that the very corruption the elves feared still lingered in the hearts of men....still lingered in the hearts of men indeed. Is it paranoia when your fears are in fact rational?
The main powers of the rings were generally that they enhance their wearer's natural abilities. They were also supposed to, eventually, enslave the users will to the One Ring. Their users fading till eventually they all became wraiths. The men who became the Nazgul didn't immediately fall completely. They lived an extended life of great power, not aging and having great magical abilities, but eventually instead of aging they slowly faded into the wraiths they were at the end of the 3rd age. Their spirits transitioning into the Unseen Realm while their bodies withered.
However, Dwarves proved immune to direct domination. Instead of fading, they simply became greedy and extremely skilled at gathering wealth, wealth which was somewhat tainted by the ring they wore. This is one reason for Smaug taking over the Lonely Mountain, the ring the king of Erebor had drew him there.
The Elven rings were not made with any input from Sauron, only with the knowledge given to Celebrimbor by Sauron. Thus they were also immune to his domination, but not his detection and complete knowledge. So when Sauron put on the One Ring for the first time, he was aware of the Elven rings(he had not been aware of their existence before this). And the Elven bearers were also aware of him, and could remove their rings. Had they kept them on, Sauron would have complete knowledge of what they did, said, and thought while wearing them.
The One Ring's power is also fairly nebulous. It also, at least for people who aren't Sauron, seems to specifically enhance the wearer's natural abilities. One thing it did is draw the wearer partly into the Unseen Realm, thus making them invisible to mortals, but much more visible to wraiths and elves who exist partly in both. Even simply by having it on your person, not just wearing it. For Sauron, it would allow him to be aware of who and where the bearers of all other rings were. As well as enhance his own abilities massively, though parting with it was also quite debilitating for him. He couldn't dominate the elven rings, but he could locate them and thus their hidden locations would be easy to find.
a few tibits of intresting lore i've pick up form looking on the LOTR wiki. I've spoilered it so those seeking to avoid it can.
Spoiler:
Elrond Half elven had a brother, elros, and both were asked at the end of the First Age (which ended 3,400 years before the War of the Last Alliance, which i believe to be the climatic event of this 5-season series, and the scene that the Fellowship of the Rings shows in its opening flashback) to choose between human and elven blood and lifetimes. Elrond chose elfdom, and became Hugo Weaving. Elros chose humanity, and went on to found Numernor (and is the source of the long lives the numernor kings enjoyed). So, Elrond is technically a great (to the 25th generation) uncle to queen regent Miriel (and, though links between Miriel and the other nobles of numeror like Elendil and Isildur, to Aragorn....which makes his marriage to Elrond's daughter EXTRA spicy).
Rivendell, the relm we associate with Elrond, has not yet been founded, but should be, during the events of the series. He marries and has Arwen during the Third Age. Lothlorien, the relm of Galadriel in the Third Age, is already extant, but ruled by someone else. I guess we might see her travel there to become its ruler during the course of the series.
Of the three elven Rings of power, Galadriel gets one form the start and keeps it, Elrond acquires one at the end of the (assumed) timeframe of this series, and the third is kept by an elf called Círdan, who passed to Gandalf when he arrives during the Third age. Of the 7 dwarven rings, 4 are "consumed by dragonfire" (one of the few things able to damage these artifacts), and three Aquired by Sauron before the War of the Ring (the events of the LOTR films)
While the Wizards were sent to deal with Sauron in the thousandth year of the Third Age, that is not the first time that the Maiar (servents to the Valar, something like "angels", or "demigods") had been to middle earth. The stranger that the hobbits have found could well be Olórin, later known to the races of Men as Gandalf (tolkein had a nasty tendency to give characters multiple names in different langauges).
of note, all the "elvish" we hear is labelled (at least in the subtitles) as Quenya, the "high elven" tongue spoken in Valinor. This is not the same as the lord of the rings, where the elves speak Sindarin as their main tongue, and quenya is described as almost like "elf latin" in its limited use. Its interesting, as most elves, even by this point, are not ones who ever lived in Valinor (being born in Middle earth during the 1st and 2nd ages), and the old lore says that while quenya was widely understood by elves, Sindarin was the "day tongue" for pretty much all of them (Galadriel is noted in the wiki as being the ONLY named elf in the LOTR trilogy who would have been taught Quenya as her birth language, for example).
What exactly do, or I suppose did, The Rings of Power actually do? And did the One Ring act as a mind control type thing?
There’s some subtle differences, certainly in the Elven rings; Nenya, the ring of adamant’s power is primarily one of preservation, which is why Lothlorien is this ethereal fragment of an earlier age by the time of LoTR.
I think the intention was that the rings are supposed to help bring peace, stability and prosperity to each of their respective races; it would explain why the Dwarven ones would corrupt from prosperity to greed and probably why the human ones went from strength of stability to domination.
One subtle thing I really like from the credits of the new series, is the implication that the rings reflect the harmonies of the universe (the whole universe ultimately being the song of the Valar); the one ring changes the tune? This also comes up with the Dwarven singing and as I write this I’m thinking that the writer’s have been a lot more clever and subtle with this than I’d initially realised.
Spoiler:
With regards to the “fathers” speech by Elrond, I didn’t find it arrogant at all. Elrond is one of the few elves that actually understand mortality; his brother became a mortal and died and he lost his father to a heavenly quest. The death of a loved one is terrible, but the thought of that person being alive but removed from you for all eternity is even rougher.
With regards to the “fathers” speech by Elrond, I didn’t find it arrogant at all. Elrond is one of the few elves that actually understand mortality; his brother became a mortal and died and he lost his father to a heavenly quest. The death of a loved one is terrible, but the thought of that person being alive but removed from you for all eternity is even rougher.
Spoiler:
Keep in mind that Elrond survived the Fall of Gondolin as a child. The finality of life, even for an ostensibly immortal being, is something bound to his very core.
The scene isn't about him one-upping Durin, it's about his continuing to show to Durin that despite how monumentally different their worlds are they have striking similarities. It's a friend reaching out to another friend in a moment of crisis and doubt and giving earnest guidance and support. No matter the agendas and politicking and machinations that surround them, these are two people who genuinely care about each other. They just sometimes have to be reminded of that fact (it's a similar theme to Durin's care for the sapling in his home that tees up Disa smoothing their falling out).
So when the show first dropped there were people speculating on exactly how much they would be able to draw from the Silmarillion or other works beyond just the appendices of Return of the King - that they'd be creating new lore whole cloth as part of the broader 'fanfic' criticism.
As each episode airs, it feels like they've anticipated this criticism, and have been inserting little references here and there to poke at it. Gil-Galad shows up in episode 1, Feanor gets name-dropped in episode 2. Galadriel points out (rightly) that she is of the Noldor in episode 3...
Spoiler:
and Adar talks about Beleriand in this latest one (which caught me off-guard because its completely absent from Galadriel's opening narration and the accompanying map in episode 1!)
I'm a little cooler on this episode than the others, if only because I feel kind of left on the hook for the hobbit stuff and I want to know what happens next!
Spoiler:
Numenor comes front and center here after establishing the basics about it in the B plot of the previous episode. I'm less interested in its plotline if only because I feel I know the most about it - they need to move the plot from point A to point B in order to get Numenor to the point where it's sending ships and colonizing Middle Earth and founding Gondor, etc. it's as well executed as the other plot threads in the show so that's fine.
I'd say Arondir's story comes in as the B plot this episode. We get payoff about Adar which I think really should have been incorporated into the previous episode somehow. He asks Arondir to do something and Arondir goes and does it, but along the way we get some running, some danger, orcs being nasty, etc. and that supplies most of the action this episode (no need to insert a street brawl into the other storylines this time). The only other interesting thing to come out of it is Theo getting confronted by Waldreg - confirming our suspicions about the sword and that some of the people here are loyal to the memory of Sauron.
And we get back to Elrond and Durin to see that some progress is being made on the tower/forge, the big secret from episode 2 is revealed to be mithril (not my guess, good on those who guessed right!) and Durin himself seems to waffle back and forth over whether he trusts Elrond implicitly or is stringing him along like his father wants him to? Their conversation about fathers is probably the most bizarre criticism of the show I've seen thus far: Elrond has some unique circumstances that prevent him from being able to settle things with his father, he says as much in this scene and it doesn't take more than the barest, most basic level of empathy to understand that Durin's going to feel just as torn up if he doesn't settle things with his own aging father.
Finally, Durin gives Elrond a piece of Mithril, which is the part that makes me wonder if he's proving he trusts Elrond more than he'll admit to his dad.
And... (bigger spoilers in a separate box)
Spoiler:
it's worth noting at this point that at least one of the elven rings of power (the one given to Galadriel, no less) is made from mithril.
Morfydd Clark (Galadriel) can do better. I've seen her in Saint Maud and a few other things where she's shown some acting chops. In this she seems so... wooden. She's also written to be unlikeable. Hopefully they can change course. Had it been an original character, I'd probably not be as bothered by her portrayal.
Actor that plays Elendil kind of took me by surprise. Dude seems to dominate any scene he's in.
Pacing is weirdly distracting and oft times pulls me out of the show. One less then kind reviewer called the show "A cure for insomnia".
Too many branching storylines. Very rarely does a show with so many dangling threads wrap them up nicely and with all of them paying off in a satisfying way.
Supposedly this show is $65 million per episode and I'm left wondering where all the money went.
Took me 2 tries to get through E4, as I fell asleep the first time. This was easily my least favorite episode thus far. My biggest problem continues to be Galadriel. I honestly really dig the actress, I think she's doing as good a job as she can with the material she's given, it's just the script is terrible. I simply can't stomach how wildly undiplomatic this allegedly 3000 year old Elf is. I understand that the writers want her to come across as stubborn and hard headed, but they're just making her look like an idiot instead and I really don't think that's what they're trying to go for. The fact that after all of her idiotic attempts to provoke the Queen somehow still land her an escort back to Middle Earth is mind numbingly lazy. It's clear the writers are more interested in moving pieces on their board than they are telling a story.
I'm really hoping the next episode is a good one because I really do want to like the show. They seem to have gotten just about everything right except the writing.
like i said before: this isnt the calm, serene Galadriel that we know form Cate Blanchett's protrayal....but it ISthe part of that same being that Cate Blanchett's Galadriel was worried about when she was offered the One Ring, of the "dark queen" she speaks of to Frodo.
obviously, during the course of this series, I expect her to mature and become closer to the Lady of Lothlorien we see later in the timeline.
xerxeskingofking wrote: like i said before: this isnt the calm, serene Galadriel that we know form Cate Blanchett's protrayal....but it ISthe part of that same being that Cate Blanchett's Galadriel was worried about when she was offered the One Ring, of the "dark queen" she speaks of to Frodo.
obviously, during the course of this series, I expect her to mature and become closer to the Lady of Lothlorien we see later in the timeline.
Sorry, she's over 3,000 years old already. Galadriel should be more than mature enough to understand she's helpless on this island. It's daft and stupid. There are much better ways to show her dark queen side than what they've done.
One thing I don't get is should she not have some magical powers - well beyond being an elf - faster stronger, more agile than a human, immune to disease and age....etc
Mr Morden wrote: One thing I don't get is should she not have some magical powers - well beyond being an elf - faster stronger, more agile than a human, immune to disease and age....etc
Her powers were never flashy, generally involving communication, foresight, and concealment, and were quite often described as linked to or dependent on Nenya and her Mirror (neither of which she has at this point in the narrative). I don't think it can be stressed enough that both she and Elrond are a shadow of the powerhouses that they become in the later Second and into the Third Age, both from a maturity but also an ability standpoint.
Tolkein Elves with short hair... nope. Sorry that is just far too modern.
Also, what the hell was with that slow motion 'epic' horse ride on the beach... everything about it was set up to be this big epic piece. It just felt so forced, and far too early within the show to justify epic character moments like that.
Is there a reason the Orcs are all white? Thought Tolkien described Orcs as being sallow or black/dark skined? Is there something I am missing?
oh. no. everything. ruined.
The video maker is this obsessive, but somehow can't see that hinge on the door, and doesn't realize that type of stacked hinge (0:43 for a very clear shot) would _have to_ open both out and in?
Yeesh. People need to give things a rest.
Keep in mind that Elrond survived the Fall of Gondolin as a child. The finality of life, even for an ostensibly immortal being, is something bound to his very core.
The scene isn't about him one-upping Durin, it's about his continuing to show to Durin that despite how monumentally different their worlds are they have striking similarities. It's a friend reaching out to another friend in a moment of crisis and doubt and giving earnest guidance and support. No matter the agendas and politicking and machinations that surround them, these are two people who genuinely care about each other. They just sometimes have to be reminded of that fact (it's a similar theme to Durin's care for the sapling in his home that tees up Disa smoothing their falling out).
Spoiler:
Actually, no. He didn't survive the fall of Gondolin. That was his infant father, Earendil.
He survived the 3rd Kinslaying at the havens of Sirion when the twins were captured, and their mother Elwing fled with the Silmaril. They were spared by Maglor who raised them as his own out of guilt for the murder of the twin sons of Dior, Elwing's brothers, during the 2nd Kinslaying the sack of Dorioth.
Essentially, the twins were raised by one of the last sons of Faenor and barely knew their father or mother, being only 6 when it happened.
stonehorse wrote: Tolkein Elves with short hair... nope. Sorry that is just far too modern.
Also, what the hell was with that slow motion 'epic' horse ride on the beach... everything about it was set up to be this big epic piece. It just felt so forced, and far too early within the show to justify epic character moments like that.
Is there a reason the Orcs are all white? Thought Tolkien described Orcs as being sallow or black/dark skined? Is there something I am missing?
While I prefer Elves to generally have long hair I am not that fussed about it, especially over the course of thousands of years. I do not see short hair as explicitly modern. Roman fashion had short hair 2,000 years ago.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the showrunners wanted the Orcs to be pale to help express their recent return to the surface as well as being more sensitive to light than how they are portrayed in Jackson's LOTR and Hobbit.
The writing in episode 4 was disappointing, again. Mrs. GG and I seem to be enjoying the show more than many other folks but the writing is still problematic at times. As is some of the camera work.
Spoiler:
The scene of Galadriel with the guards in the cells was… very disappointing. Painfully disappointing. And on top of that I do not mind Galadriel being arrogant or rash, but she is still supposed to be a General. A General. Not even a new Lieutenant or Captain by nepotism… a combat experienced General that has lead thousand year warriors in combat. Who has danced the complicated tapestry of an Elven Royal Court well enough to be made a General, a very political rank. She is not Achilles. I like the actor, she looks the part and can act but the writing is letting her down. The lecture on leadership and politics from a reluctant Royal…now that was awkward to me in a way that Elrond advising Durin on paternal relationships was not.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the showrunners wanted the Orcs to be pale to help express their recent return to the surface as well as being more sensitive to light than how they are portrayed in Jackson's LOTR and Hobbit.
Indeed, much as the Weta designs for the LOTR Uruk-hai are meant to evoke charred black/red burns (the idea being that moving under daylight burns their skin, but they are so strong they can ignore the effects), the gross semi-translucency of the Weta RoP orcs (in this region) evoke the corruption of maggots and tunneling grubs (combining with their frankly brilliant costume designs of using things like snake-skins to shield themselves from sunlight and the long animal skulls basically being a "baseball cap" to provide shade against sun)
Actually, no. He didn't survive the fall of Gondolin. That was his infant father, Earendil.
He survived the 3rd Kinslaying at the havens of Sirion when the twins were captured, and their mother Elwing fled with the Silmaril. They were spared by Maglor who raised them as his own out of guilt for the murder of the twin sons of Dior, Elwing's brothers, during the 2nd Kinslaying the sack of Dorioth.
Essentially, the twins were raised by one of the last sons of Faenor and barely knew their father or mother, being only 6 when it happened.
That is not the first time I have conflated those two events when discussing the family history, so I appreciate the correction.
Would have been nice to learn a bit more about Adar in E4 after the blurry face cliffhanger in E3. Or what the Orcs are doing, more specifically than eventually somehow establishing Mordor as their realm. Or something more about the Morgul hilt Theo stole from Waldreg’s barn. Or the identity of the Stranger. My interest in any show really starts to strain under the weight of too many open-ended mysteries and E4 unfortunately just skirted along all of this stuff. The Numenorean sets continue to look great. I cannot get enough of Galadriel. Theo creeping through his village while the orcs searched for him was fun and the camera work there was extremely well done. The Durin/Elrond scenes are the clear stand-outs in E4.
Given some of the discussion on this thread so far, thought I would share the following. Great channel name BTW.
As for my opinion of the show itself, overall, I am struggling to stay engaged as the characters are not appealing or endearing as portrayed to date. Using the books or the LOTR film franchise as a basis, there is simply no character so far comparable to Bilbo, Gandalf, the fellowship, etc. So far I cannot stand Galadriel, and when your titular main protagonist is unlikeable as I think she is, that really spells trouble for the story and show as a whole. Also, the incongruities with Tolkien’s legendarium are really interfering with enjoying the story for what it is. On the positive side, the settings and cinematography for a “TV” show is great, though with a billion dollars combined with the development time spent on the show, it really is more of a serialized direct to streaming movie than a TV show IMHO.
Likely putting this on the back burner and maybe will try to return to it once the first season is done.
Manchu wrote: Would have been nice to learn a bit more about Adar in E4 after the blurry face cliffhanger in E3. Or what the Orcs are doing, more specifically than eventually somehow establishing Mordor as their realm. Or something more about the Morgul hilt Theo stole from Waldreg’s barn. Or the identity of the Stranger.
These orcs specifically were digging their way from town to town searching for the sword (definitely not Stormbringer), hence the big moment where Theo lifts it up and the cloaked one is in awe, then goes chasing after him because he has it, right? Otherwise it looks like the villagers are...
Spoiler:
Preparing for some big confrontation with the orcs in the ruins of that tower, which may or may not be betrayed by Waldreg or some other members of the community...
I sure hope this isn't the arc they drop next episode.
Likewise, Meteor Man is still as mysterious this episode as he was last episode by virtue of his plot line never coming up.
stonehorse wrote: Tolkein Elves with short hair... nope. Sorry that is just far too modern.
Also, what the hell was with that slow motion 'epic' horse ride on the beach... everything about it was set up to be this big epic piece. It just felt so forced, and far too early within the show to justify epic character moments like that.
Is there a reason the Orcs are all white? Thought Tolkien described Orcs as being sallow or black/dark skined? Is there something I am missing?
While I prefer Elves to generally have long hair I am not that fussed about it, especially over the course of thousands of years. I do not see short hair as explicitly modern. Roman fashion had short hair 2,000 years ago.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the showrunners wanted the Orcs to be pale to help express their recent return to the surface as well as being more sensitive to light than how they are portrayed in Jackson's LOTR and Hobbit.
The writing in episode 4 was disappointing, again. Mrs. GG and I seem to be enjoying the show more than many other folks but the writing is still problematic at times. As is some of the camera work.
Spoiler:
The scene of Galadriel with the guards in the cells was… very disappointing. Painfully disappointing. And on top of that I do not mind Galadriel being arrogant or rash, but she is still supposed to be a General. A General. Not even a new Lieutenant or Captain by nepotism… a combat experienced General that has lead thousand year warriors in combat. Who has danced the complicated tapestry of an Elven Royal Court well enough to be made a General, a very political rank. She is not Achilles. I like the actor, she looks the part and can act but the writing is letting her down. The lecture on leadership and politics from a reluctant Royal…now that was awkward to me in a way that Elrond advising Durin on paternal relationships was not.
While Human culture does change over the course of time. Iwas under the impression that Elves due, to being near enough immortal have a stagnant culture,or one that moves with the agency of a glacier.
I can see how that would make sense for the Orcs, just not sure how that is grounded in the lore. They have ended up looking like a primative version of Locusts from Gears of War. It is a great design, and makes sense that a subterranean race would all be pale.
Regarding the story, so far it has been rather bad. The scene where Galadriel decided to swim across a vast open ocean is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have seen.
Galadriel's swimming would make more sense without her looking so beat when she gets on the raft… given in a later episode a Numenorean blacksmith complains about the fear of Elven workers who “ never tire, never sleep…” coming to take their jobs. And surely Galadriel could swim as well as Beowulf….
However it is this kind of inconsistent writing that for me undermines the show most. It is confusing in its world building. We are told Galadriel is a General but does not act like one. She is shown to handily best a troll when other veteran Elven warriors could not. And yet she shows no real martial grace or skill (physical or tactical) in Numenor. The cell escape scene is cringeworthy.
And yes, the scenes with the Harfoots where “no one gets left behind….” until someone does… are again jarring. The inconsistency is what makes my head hurt.
Spoiler:
Arondil's “action scene” in episode 4makes no sense to me. Why release him to deliver a message to then have him killed before he can deliver the message? How did he get his weapons? Did the Orcs give them back? Why? Did he recover them from some hidden cache? That is my head canon on it I guess. The excellent Orc archers that shot the Elven Captain previously clearly had a day off during Arondil's flight….
When folks call this show a “wokefest” it irritates me because the problem is not a female lead or the various skin tones of the actors, it is some dodgy writing that undermines suspension of disbelief.
Edit: One thing about Elven culture changing… from what I remember Elves used scale armor and Dwarves invented maille. Then Elves took to using maille. So not quite unchanging in my opinion. But I can see where you are coming from. I think that in part I prefer long hair and no beards for Elves as costuming shorthand. Gondor with short hair and no beards, Rohan with long hair and beards. Perhaps not as Tolkien specifically wrote but small cultural clues via character appearance. Something I seem to recall Bernard Cornwell using in the Uhtred Saga.
Blacksmith complaining about elves that never tire and never sleep coming to steal our jerbs is a perfectly good propoganda phrase. Fear of the other blown out of proportion.
Give the elf his stuff, tell him to go deliver a message, even with your stuff we’re still gonna kill you all. Good hope crushing thing and pretty cliche evil guy stuff. Oh wait, by chance he bumped into the kid in possession of the one thing we really really want. Should probably go ahead and just kill him we can deliver the message another way.
I'm enjoying it. The swim.... I choose to see at as a) an example of the superhuman nature of the elves and b) as someone who wasn't ready to (re)enter the Undying Lands, she had no choice. She had to return to Middle-Earth and if swimming was the only way, then so be it.
"No-one gets left behind" obviously isn't a promise: it's an instruction. The Migration is all and if you can't keep up, you're lost. Your absence mourned, but you're gone.
I do feel we need a bit more on The Man Who Fell To Middle-Earth. There's teasing, and there is not saying anything at all - and I do get bored of that quite quickly. And the fight scene in the cells could have been choreographed better. Otherwise, I'm enjoying it so far.
Except - every time I see the leader of the Harfoots (Harfeet?) I'm hearing in my head "Faster, Ziggy. Faster!" The curse of well-known faces in a role, I guess. I found Stephen Fry in the Hobbit movies immersion breaking too.
MarkNorfolk wrote: I'm enjoying it. The swim.... I choose to see at as a) an example of the superhuman nature of the elves and b) as someone who wasn't ready to (re)enter the Undying Lands, she had no choice. She had to return to Middle-Earth and if swimming was the only way, then so be it.
"No-one gets left behind" obviously isn't a promise: it's an instruction. The Migration is all and if you can't keep up, you're lost. Your absence mourned, but you're gone.
I do feel we need a bit more on The Man Who Fell To Middle-Earth. There's teasing, and there is not saying anything at all - and I do get bored of that quite quickly. And the fight scene in the cells could have been choreographed better. Otherwise, I'm enjoying it so far.
Except - every time I see the leader of the Harfoots (Harfeet?) I'm hearing in my head "Faster, Ziggy. Faster!" The curse of well-known faces in a role, I guess. I found Stephen Fry in the Hobbit movies immersion breaking too.
Fair points MarkNorfolk. I felt the same about Stephen Fry but fortunately for me I do not recognize the actor for the Harfoots leader. And thanks for helping me better frame the leaving behind bit in my mind.
AduroT… you make a fair point reminding me of the Morgul blade. That scene still jars for me though. The slow motion camerawork that keeps popping up in the show is something I am not a fan and that does not help.
Yhea, it's not "nobody will be left behind", a statement of solidarity and team help, its "nobody walks alone, and nobody falls behind". Its a statement of conormity, and community over individuals. Stay with the pack, don't make your own path, and if you can't keep up then that's on you.
It's the same "tall poppy syndrome " (which the mother name drops in episode 3) we see in later hobbits, of valuing comfortable conformity over individual achievement.
I've seen people complaining about the Harfoots saying 'No one gets left behind' and then immediately going back on it. I assumed this was a line from episode 1 or 2 that I missed? Surely it's not the little marching song Sadoc was singing with the children in episode 3?
Because that one absolutely went "Nobody goes off trail, and nobody walks alone." and was accompanied by effigies of wolves and spooky birds that will surely eat naughty harfoots that go off trail or walk alone. No mention of commitments to not leave harfoots behind or even marginally complicated things like how to form search parties because again, it's a little marching song to teach children road safety.
People are clinging to Galadriel trying to swim across the ocean but I don't think it's the silver bullet people make it out to be. Tolkien elves are OP as all hell - swimming across the entire bredth of the ocean is a stretch even then, but Galadriel is hedging her bets here. She grew up in Valinor, she knows Ulmo has your back even when the other Valar don't, and if she is right and she is needed in Middle Earth, she can count on divine intervention to get her there.
And if she isn't, she'll just die, and be reunited with her brother.
Spoiler:
(Literally, she'd go to the Halls of Mandos - the sad irony being Finrod is one of the few elves permitted to leave the halls and return to Valinor proper, so he may well have been waiting for her at the docks on the other side, but she doesn't know that.)
So no, I don't think she's diving in and swimming to Middle Earth based on some expectation that she'll be able to make it on her own (as funny as it would be for all these episodes to just cut back to her for five or ten second snippets of her doing the breast-stroke). I suspect she, in line with all her dialogue expressing doubt about going to Valinor leading up to this scene, concluded that returning now was wrong, and that she had to, by any means, try to get back to Middle Earth, no matter the odds - because elves are chained to their destinies and the fate of the world in a way that men uniquely are not. And sure enough it seems to have paid off for her: a wrecked ship (explicitly not Numenorean, so they got swept out very, very far from home, wherever they're from) a horrible sea worm, Numenoreans, who live on and love the sea, etc.
AduroT wrote: Blacksmith complaining about elves that never tire and never sleep coming to steal our jerbs is a perfectly good propoganda phrase. Fear of the other blown out of proportion.
Not really. Its lazy insertion of "bad rightwing anti-immigrant stereotype". Its not even done in a clever allegorical way, its just literally "Thy're gonna take our jerbs!!" which makes zero sense in-universe. Elves definitely do tire and sleep, and yes the Numenoreans would know that.
The ruling elite also made absolutely no friendly overtures to Galadrial, so why the masses are on the verge of protesting makes no sense. Especially when Galadrial's only request was "get me out of here" and made quite clear she has no intention of staying.
If you want the restless masses rabblerousing over the Elf, you'd need her to have had a warmer reception from Mirial. Then you could actually have had some real sensible drama. Maybe have Mirial be actually courteous and at least hospitable, with Pharazon and others objecting to anything more than tossing her on the next boat heading east. Then when Mirial forces her way and is more friendly, then you have Pharazon doing some grandiose speech and shizz after leaving in a huff.
They're terrible at writing what they want to write.
I do not see this as some sort of insertion of contemporary politics. Xenophobia is hardly a rightwing (or conservative) only issue. In this case it is the conservative pro-Elf faction against the progressive pro-Men faction.
Is this another example of some folks wanting to make Rings of Power more political than it is meant to be?
The people railing about Elves stealing our jobs knocked me out of the story, it was same sort of present day stuff as the dwarf tossing joke in LotR.
Just clumsy.
Now the scene in episode 1 where the humans gripe about elves controlling their land, that seemed for a second to be a modern comment about Iraq (or Palestine or where ever) but then it occurred to me it was just a appropriate for Ireland or India at the time Tolkien was writing, or about Israel during the Roman Empire.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: The people railing about Elves stealing our jobs knocked me out of the story, it was same sort of present day stuff as the dwarf tossing joke in LotR.
Just clumsy.
Now the scene in episode 1 where the humans gripe about elves controlling their land, that seemed for a second to be a modern comment about Iraq (or Palestine or where ever) but then it occurred to me it was just a appropriate for Ireland or India at the time Tolkien was writing, or about Israel during the Roman Empire.
Xenophobic concerns about job loss did not strike me as a modern concern only. And it certainly did not jar me as much as “nobody tosses a Dwarf” but to each their own.
My quite possibly incorrect interpretation is the elves haven’t been on the island in a long time, and the current generation of humans might not have seen one before. I would easily see the superior nature of elves being exaggerated to even greater extremes. Then you get the whole this is man’s time now, and fear of the other, and that blacksmith scene doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
And the common people aren’t going to know Glad isn’t being well received in the palace. There’s no CSpan broadcasting that meeting to the people. They just know an elf showed up and was promptly escorted to their leader and she’s been allowed to remain even despite her buddy beating up four citizens in the street.
Humans are human and behave like humans and throughout history we generally behave in similar patterns.
So yes you can read modern social elements within stories, however its important to remember that many of those "modern" elements are simply the same kinds that have been kicking around for hundreds of years.
Racism isn't something modern nor new. The players might have changed around and the focus, but its been there for utterly ages.
Fear of losing your job to someone able to under cut you; surpass your skill etc... has always been there. The idea that a human would project this fear onto an elf is very logical. An elf able to work their craft for the equivalent of many human generations can achieve a level of skill that surpasses most humans. They don't have to train someone new; they don't have to worry about getting old; they might not seem to have issues with developing and changing impressions and technologies etc...
So yeah a blacksmith being fearfull that an elf would take their trade and then never retire - yeah that's a big fear. Esp because that blacksmith is now thinking that their son will never train in the family skill because, yep that same elf is going to outlive the son too.
I mean, is it really any more modern than the Luddites of the late 18th/early 19th century, railing against the automation that was replacing them, or the anti-chinese sentiment in 19h century America? about the only difference is those were reactions to trends already happening, not potential future events. Xenophobia and racisim is not some uniquely "modern" problem that didn't exist in the early 1900s. Hell, it was a problem as far back we can look.
What i found slightly odder was the dis-connect of the people of numernor, who on one hand were clearly insular and happy in splendid isolation, away form the happenings of the wider world and against any intrusion form that wider world...yet at the same time happy to volunteer to nobly go out, fight and possibly die for that same world. it just seemed their mood whiplashed between the two, when i would have though it would need to pass through a imperialist "show them the glory of Numernor" stage inbetween.
What i found slightly odder was the dis-connect of the people of numernor, who on one hand were clearly insular and happy in splendid isolation, away form the happenings of the wider world and against any intrusion form that wider world...yet at the same time happy to volunteer to nobly go out, fight and possibly die for that same world. it just seemed their mood whiplashed between the two, when i would have though it would need to pass through a imperialist "show them the glory of Numernor" stage inbetween.
Well, they did get (more or less) a direct message from the gods, with the falling of the leaves of Nimloth, the White Tree of Numenor, the second they physically exiled Galadriel. A change of heart (at the upper management level) might, just might restore their fortunes and prevent the Great Wave.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: The people railing about Elves stealing our jobs knocked me out of the story, it was same sort of present day stuff as the dwarf tossing joke in LotR.
Just clumsy.
Now the scene in episode 1 where the humans gripe about elves controlling their land, that seemed for a second to be a modern comment about Iraq (or Palestine or where ever) but then it occurred to me it was just a appropriate for Ireland or India at the time Tolkien was writing, or about Israel during the Roman Empire.
Xenophobic concerns about job loss did not strike me as a modern concern only. And it certainly did not jar me as much as “nobody tosses a Dwarf” but to each their own.
I mean it's definitely not accurate to the relations the Numenoreans were shown to have with the Elves, especially up until that point, even in the show version and not the original lore, where there's like, what, one annoying elf in the city? It's not like there's a huge elf diaspora in Numenor taking up the city's resources or driving down their job market from cheap labour. Plus from what I remember there were several instances of Elves gifting Numenor several things for free with nothing in return, like the Palantir, so that would go against the idea of the elves being there to steal from them in some way.
It was the jealousy of the elve's immortality that was played upon by Sauron later on to Pharazon, who was tricked into thinking it was withheld from them. Not some bizarre modern fear of stolen labour that doesn't even match the events of the lore that the story is based upon.
xerxeskingofking wrote:What i found slightly odder was the dis-connect of the people of numernor, who on one hand were clearly insular and happy in splendid isolation, away form the happenings of the wider world and against any intrusion form that wider world...yet at the same time happy to volunteer to nobly go out, fight and possibly die for that same world. it just seemed their mood whiplashed between the two, when i would have though it would need to pass through a imperialist "show them the glory of Numernor" stage inbetween.
Divine intervention aside it looks like we have a baked in population of true believers throughout the island's population (especially in the west with Elendil's folk) but there's a good chance a number of them are like Isildur and friends, who for whatever reason don't feel like they can succeed at home and are seeking opportunity and glory.
Grimskul wrote:I mean it's definitely not accurate to the relations the Numenoreans were shown to have with the Elves, especially up until that point, even in the show version and not the original lore, where there's like, what, one annoying elf in the city? It's not like there's a huge elf diaspora in Numenor taking up the city's resources or driving down their job market from cheap labour. Plus from what I remember there were several instances of Elves gifting Numenor several things for free with nothing in return, like the Palantir, so that would go against the idea of the elves being there to steal from them in some way.
The show's presenting it as a macro-scale echo of Elrond and Durin's problem. Galadriel returns expecting men to be faithful to their past alliance as though she'd been gone for a month only to find generations have passed and opinions have changed drastically as they are wont to do. To her, men seem capricious and fickle, to them she is haughty and entitled. It's an interpretation of the difficulty elves have in accepting the mortality of men specifically that Tolkien alludes to in the Silmarillion, but doesn't delve too deeply in save for the general idea that an elves found the speed at which men wither and die to be terrifying.
Grimskul wrote:It was the jealousy of the elve's immortality that was played upon by Sauron later on to Pharazon, who was tricked into thinking it was withheld from them. Not some bizarre modern fear of stolen labour that doesn't even match the events of the lore that the story is based upon.
Some people are speculating that Sauron is already there, but I think those events have yet to happen. The show's just showing that there is a lot of fertile soil for Sauron to sow dissent when he does arrive.
You could potentially justify "they're taking our jobs" if the show actually worked up to that plot point, but just dropping it in fully formed is not justified. The writers don't understand you have to build up some justification first. Especially if you don't want it to be easily seen as an out of context modern issue lazy drop in, which it absolutely 100% is.
Lazy writing is lazy. You need to actually work for something like that before you can just drop it in. Especially since there is no background justification for Elves coming to replace humans at their jobs. Given that there is zero Elven immigration and nobody pushing for it, it makes no sense that that would be a talking point for the masses. It only exists because the writers stuck it in there without any in-universe justification.
Grey Templar wrote: You could potentially justify "they're taking our jobs" if the show actually worked up to that plot point, but just dropping it in fully formed is not justified. The writers don't understand you have to build up some justification first. Especially if you don't want it to be easily seen as an out of context modern issue lazy drop in, which it absolutely 100% is.
Lazy writing is lazy. You need to actually work for something like that before you can just drop it in. Especially since there is no background justification for Elves coming to replace humans at their jobs. Given that there is zero Elven immigration and nobody pushing for it, it makes no sense that that would be a talking point for the masses. It only exists because the writers stuck it in there without any in-universe justification.
Exactly. It would be just as out of place to have an newly orange-tinged Pharazon start fear-mongering with the Numenoreans over their land being taken by elves and that he should become the rightful ruler so he could "Make Numenor Great Again". I wonder if people would still try using their mental gymnastics to justify that if it was put into the show that way, because what we've seen is already pretty heavy-handed.
The show's presenting it as a macro-scale echo of Elrond and Durin's problem. Galadriel returns expecting men to be faithful to their past alliance as though she'd been gone for a month only to find generations have passed and opinions have changed drastically as they are wont to do. To her, men seem capricious and fickle, to them she is haughty and entitled. It's an interpretation of the difficulty elves have in accepting the mortality of men specifically that Tolkien alludes to in the Silmarillion, but doesn't delve too deeply in save for the general idea that an elves found the speed at which men wither and die to be terrifying.
See, I didn't get that at all.
Galadrial seemed fully aware that the Numenoreans had turned away when they arrived, so she just doubled down on being a butthole to them and demanding help??!#? There was no moment of naive "Good, we've been saved by the Numenoreans, surely they will help me" followed by confusion when they are openly hostile to her. That would actually have salvaged it somewhat.
Elrond did have that moment of confusion breaking him out of his naive sense of the passage of time. Galadrial shows no surprise over the actions of the Numenoreas, yet she acts totally the opposite of how anybody would act in that situation.
Galadrial would make more sense if she was a new made-up character for the show. A young impetuous elf who is fixated on destroying Sauron for made-up backstory reasons, an Elf who has never been to Valinor and was only a child during the War of Wrath. Lost her parents/siblings(also made up for the show). That is what they should have done. Made up their own character for the show if they want her to act like this.
Effing heck, replace Galadriel with her daughter! Have this be Celebrian instead. Then the pseudo romance vibes I'm getting between Elrond and her would be ok and while it doesn't make sense for Celebrian to be doing these things, it breaks the setting less than Galadrial being dumb as a rock.
Back to major butchering of the lore again. Nonsense about a Silmaril being the source of Mithril and the Elves are going to die if they don't get it...
And minor gripe, why'd they make the 3 ships going so darn small? They're supposed to have 100 dudes on each ship. They need to be 3 times as big, and there is no reason they couldn't make them bigger. Just uggg, you've got a billion $ budget, at least make the ships a believable scale or have a dozen more.
I mean this whole jobs thing illustrates peferctly why this is not tolkien..
Like its a magical effin land with trees and stuff things like "job security" is as alien to this world as are actual alien space craft.. Its beyond stupid. The point is to have a world that is nothing like our and is not some weird allegory or a "reflection"
Back to major butchering of the lore again. Nonsense about a Silmaril being the source of Mithril and the Elves are going to die if they don't get it...
And minor gripe, why'd they make the 3 ships going so darn small? They're supposed to have 100 dudes on each ship. They need to be 3 times as big, and there is no reason they couldn't make them bigger. Just uggg, you've got a billion $ budget, at least make the ships a believable scale or have a dozen more.
I'm sorry, they've done what concerning a Silmaril?? I really need to stop reading this, this is causing me pain to see what they're doing to the story
Back to major butchering of the lore again. Nonsense about a Silmaril being the source of Mithril and the Elves are going to die if they don't get it...
And minor gripe, why'd they make the 3 ships going so darn small? They're supposed to have 100 dudes on each ship. They need to be 3 times as big, and there is no reason they couldn't make them bigger. Just uggg, you've got a billion $ budget, at least make the ships a believable scale or have a dozen more.
I'm sorry, they've done what concerning a Silmaril?? I really need to stop reading this, this is causing me pain to see what they're doing to the story
Spoiler:
They've created a mythic orgin for Mithril. a story seen as legend, even to the most knowledgeable of the elfs, etc, etc.
A tree, high in the misty mountains, "within which, some claim was hidden the last of the lost Simarils". A unamed elf hero fought a Balrog over control of the tree, and at the climax of the fight, lighting struck the tree, and this mix of the powers of light, darkness and the gods and turned its roots into Mithril.
The elven king desires the mirthil as they have just discovered (immediately before the events of the series) their "light" is fading, and believe Mithril can be used to reinvigorate them somehow, or else they must flee to valinor or deminish and perish.
now, considering that thier WAS No lost simaril, just the three, whose fates we know (one went to the Valar to get them to stop morgoth, and became a star in the sky, one was cast deep into the sea, and one thrown into the depths of a "firey pit" that sounds like a volcano), i will let you make your own mind up about this new myth
I'm just..yeah i'm done. Mithril is just an incredibly rare, incredibly valuable metal. And as for the elf connection..that's enough butchering of the work now.
Still too much going on. Branching stories spread so thin that they all suffer. Writing/dialogue continues to be wildly mediocre. “You scratched me swinging wildly in a duel! Congratulations, you’re promoted to Lieutenant!’
Still intrigued by Adar as well as the meteor man, and Eminem finally shows up! The Harfoots continue to send mixed messages “Take their wheels” one of the old ladies says of the family who adopted the meteor man. But nobody gets left behind!
I honestly want to be done with this show, but its such a spectacle at times. There could have been something excellent here, but its been wildly mishandled, imo. I’ve watched every House of the Dragon episode 2-3 times and still want more. For this, I’m constantly looking at the clock, like a boxer just trying to survive a round.
It continues to look brilliant. The Stranger is still interesting. Elendil, Durin and Elrond are still cool.
And those ships look big enough to us to hold 100 troops each although we are unsure about fitting horses as well. It is surprising just how many troops a ship can hold. Horses… no that is another matter.
But…
Spoiler:
.. there were more ships in the harbor so why only send three and hold back 200 volunteers when so many are keen to go?
The retcon on Mithril is to me the worst part of the show. It risks completely changing the nature of Bilbo's/Frodo's armor. Was it the “Light of the Valar” in the Mithril that allowed them to bear the ring so long? No, no it was just the good nature of Hobbits. Wouldn't the “Light of the Valar” have discouraged Shelob? No, no it was hidden under Frodo's shirt. And the Elves of Rivendell were ok with the Hobbits holding on to such a thing? Ugh.
And despite the chemistry of the actors for Durin and Elrond, that scene about the fate of Elves being in Durin's hands was terribly written. Way to abrupt admission of oathbreaking and forgiveness. And why did Elrond discuss it with Celebrimbor as if he still had a choice, he had broken oath already by talking to Celebrimbor.
Why does Galadriel's military history focus on her “company” when she was General of the Northern Armies? Wasn't her “company” her hand picked chosen few who would risk disobeying Gil-Galad out of personal loyalty to her and believing in her? The way all of that comes across just grates against my own views on how armies, including medieval fantasy armies, work.
Her sword fighting lesson was interesting to watch but again she comes across as more of a champion than a general.
Thinking about some of the writing feels like grading high school literature papers.
It does look like we are watching two timelines rather than having events happen simultaneously. The question now is, just who is Halbarad out of the young Southlands characters we have been shown so far… if he is indeed one of them.
So far the show has been better than I expected it to be and it still looks good but it is increasingly difficult to enjoy the poor writing and plot holes.
These issues bother me a lot more than concerns about Amazon trying to be woke. I think many people are seeing problems with that where they do not really exist. And I do not need to do mental gymnastics to justify that to myself or others. Now if they were trying to “Make Numenorean again” that would indeed be a problem.
The Numenor plot was a complete waste this episode. We left them last episode ready to leave with Galadriel and for all the concern and politics and empty threats of them backing off we end this episode in the exact same place with the exact same people.
I could be generous and say we've gotten a more nuanced picture of the different Numenorean characters, I wasn't under the impression that Isildur's sister was going to be much of a factor once they left (or would leave with them for some reason) but instead she's put her foot down on not wanting them to go and has been left to stew in that, along with Pharazon and a few others.
But really, the showrunners don't need to have Galadriel's arc be a focus every single episode, the Harfoot arc had a migration montage, we'd be able to accept the Numenoreans not appearing this episode and understand that time had passed.
I at least appreciate that we're seeing more interaction between her and Halbrand though. I hadn't realized that element had been left hanging until they took it up again.
I'm also reminded that as much as I don't feel like this character is Galadriel, I do like her as a character.
Arondir's arc is definitely in the C-plot position this time around, but we do get some important events. Waldreg and company leave the group so we won't get any shifty undercutting from within - though he may return with critical information on the tower's defenses - or deliver an ultimatum or something. Theo's come foreward with Stormbringer, so more characters can puzzle about its nature rather than just having Theo wander off and hurt himself with it.
Adar isn't keen to be compared to Sauron, looks like. He gets confirmation that the tunnel is complete, so there is some greater purpose for it that will hopefully be revealed before the end of the season.
The preview for next episode seems to be promising a big battle scene at the tower, which is something I'm really looking forward to comparing against the movies and certain other expensive fantasy TV shows we all know.
The Harfoot stuff this time around feels like two separate pieces that should have been further apart. The rude, selfish, advisor one going around, telling Sadoc to leave the Brandyfoots behind with no show of remorse at all for Largo's condition only to immediately turn around and be rescued by Meteor Man, then go around, offscreen, telling the other Harfoots how great and noble he was for saving her.
Speaking of Meteor Man - he's learning to talk - and he has some ominous stuff to say, warning Nori in particular that he is 'peril' and that apparently even he is upset and scared about the incident with the fireflies. He also ends up hurting Nori while in some kind of trance, speaking in tongues.
On the one hand, we're seeing more ominous magic imagery with him, this episode we see him throw back wolves by striking the earth with his arm, hurting himself, and healing himself later by sticking it in water and having it freeze over him. Combined with the way he makes the wind kick up, trees bow, fire kick up, and fireflies to die - we seem to be establishing a baseline power set across the traditional elements, but to what end I have no idea. I'm still leaning away from him being Sauron, as he expresses severe regret over killing the fireflies, and shows he is worried about hurting Nori and the others, and seemingly regretful when he accidentally does so - there's some essential concern for other people that doesn't line up with the desire to dominate thing.
Also, we saw the white-robed cultists, including the woman many have mistaken for Sauron in the previews - They're seemingly after Meteor Man, but they've got a ways to go if they're only just now discovering his crater.
And we got music! Road songs, drinking songs, good honest pages of little poems in service to a theme. I knew it was coming in some way because Poppy's is on the soundtrack, but I'm glad it was used in the show and not just as a credits thing.
Now for Durin and Elrond.
Ok. Big silvery elephant in the room: Mythical origin story for mithril? I suspect it isn't true at all - Elrond says its 'apocryphal' and everybody is being way too aggressive in talking about the Elves and their 'Light' as if it were a literal resource they require to live, and not a quality of their souls intrinsic to them as bestowed by Iluvatar.
As for the legend itself: I don't think they're saying there's a secret fourth Silmaril - but that this tree grew around, or at least temporarily stored one of the extant three. Of those three, one is most thoroughly accounted for, flying through the sky as a star. The other two were claimed by different sons of Feanor who, according to the Simlarillion, threw themselves into the sea and a fiery chasm respectively - its neatly symetrical, with one gem each in the earth, the sea, and sky, but does not rule out conflicting accounts for what happened to them, as those two brothers did whatever they did with the Silmarils on their own without witnesses.
Which is why it bears repeating that Tolkien wrote these stories to be myths as written by people who existed in our really real world, and not factual accounts of real events in a fantastical place, as you might see in fantasy works these days.
But yeah, I think its complete bunk - the signs and portents are pointing to doom rising again from the east, maybe even literally just Adar's apparent plot to blot out the sun. Gil Galad is convinced it can't be that so is grasping at straws to explain it with (actually) magic metal and vital essence- you'd think someone would have noticed Southlands' watch company never came home and that might have given him second thoughts?
Mithril itself is not so wild and fantastic as all that, and it was never treated as such. Numenor has some (or will have some by trade after establishing contact with Middle Earth again, maybe?) the elves use it in all sorts of crafts that they gift and trade to humans and dwarves for - they even alloy it to make magic letters that appear only by starlight and moonlight, etc. We're right on the precipice of a golden age of love and trade between Elves and Dwarves and the idea that you need to motivate it with some existential threat to the Elves (real or imagined) is insulting to the audience. It can just be a cool metal, people!
I suspect there's going to be a reveal at some point that the Silmaril part never happened, and that the myth arose the way it did exclusively because of the Balrog. Then again, it'd be just as easy to say the elf in question was Maedhros, and that he fell into that pit while fighting a Balrog who'd come to claim his hard won Silmaril from him or something.
Also, Durin's antics with the table are fun Dwarf stuff, but I'd rather he hadn't done that. The actor's charismatic enough that he could have played the perfectly polite statesman and still demanded the table to show how desperate the elves were to make the deal work.
In fairness, they could still make this whole Mithril nonsense be some elaborate lie or ruse of Sauron's that he planted long ago with the purpose of sowing discord between Elves and Dwarves. And if Anatar is indeed with Celebrimbor already maybe he's poking the bear by saying they need Mithril to do the thing with the forge and stuff.
I do believe that the fates of the last 2 Silmarils may not be in-universe knowledge. While it is known that Maglor and Maedhros stole the last two from the host of Valinor, it may not be known what they did afterwards. That is something we the readers know, but I doubt there was anyone to witness Maedhros throwing himself into a volcano or Maglor tossing his into the sea as they were all alone at this point. Maybe someone could have met Maglor afterwards while he wanders the shores of Middle Earth for the rest of time and maybe he told the tale, but it's not certain.
Maybe, maybe this is some in-universe long deception.
The Numenor plot was a complete waste this episode. We left them last episode ready to leave with Galadriel and for all the concern and politics and empty threats of them backing off we end this episode in the exact same place with the exact same people.
I could be generous and say we've gotten a more nuanced picture of the different Numenorean characters, I wasn't under the impression that Isildur's sister was going to be much of a factor once they left (or would leave with them for some reason) but instead she's put her foot down on not wanting them to go and has been left to stew in that, along with Pharazon and a few others.
But really, the showrunners don't need to have Galadriel's arc be a focus every single episode, the Harfoot arc had a migration montage, we'd be able to accept the Numenoreans not appearing this episode and understand that time had passed.
I at least appreciate that we're seeing more interaction between her and Halbrand though. I hadn't realized that element had been left hanging until they took it up again.
I'm also reminded that as much as I don't feel like this character is Galadriel, I do like her as a character.
Arondir's arc is definitely in the C-plot position this time around, but we do get some important events. Waldreg and company leave the group so we won't get any shifty undercutting from within - though he may return with critical information on the tower's defenses - or deliver an ultimatum or something. Theo's come foreward with Stormbringer, so more characters can puzzle about its nature rather than just having Theo wander off and hurt himself with it.
Adar isn't keen to be compared to Sauron, looks like. He gets confirmation that the tunnel is complete, so there is some greater purpose for it that will hopefully be revealed before the end of the season.
The preview for next episode seems to be promising a big battle scene at the tower, which is something I'm really looking forward to comparing against the movies and certain other expensive fantasy TV shows we all know.
The Harfoot stuff this time around feels like two separate pieces that should have been further apart. The rude, selfish, advisor one going around, telling Sadoc to leave the Brandyfoots behind with no show of remorse at all for Largo's condition only to immediately turn around and be rescued by Meteor Man, then go around, offscreen, telling the other Harfoots how great and noble he was for saving her.
Speaking of Meteor Man - he's learning to talk - and he has some ominous stuff to say, warning Nori in particular that he is 'peril' and that apparently even he is upset and scared about the incident with the fireflies. He also ends up hurting Nori while in some kind of trance, speaking in tongues.
On the one hand, we're seeing more ominous magic imagery with him, this episode we see him throw back wolves by striking the earth with his arm, hurting himself, and healing himself later by sticking it in water and having it freeze over him. Combined with the way he makes the wind kick up, trees bow, fire kick up, and fireflies to die - we seem to be establishing a baseline power set across the traditional elements, but to what end I have no idea. I'm still leaning away from him being Sauron, as he expresses severe regret over killing the fireflies, and shows he is worried about hurting Nori and the others, and seemingly regretful when he accidentally does so - there's some essential concern for other people that doesn't line up with the desire to dominate thing.
Also, we saw the white-robed cultists, including the woman many have mistaken for Sauron in the previews - They're seemingly after Meteor Man, but they've got a ways to go if they're only just now discovering his crater.
And we got music! Road songs, drinking songs, good honest pages of little poems in service to a theme. I knew it was coming in some way because Poppy's is on the soundtrack, but I'm glad it was used in the show and not just as a credits thing.
Now for Durin and Elrond.
Ok. Big silvery elephant in the room: Mythical origin story for mithril? I suspect it isn't true at all - Elrond says its 'apocryphal' and everybody is being way too aggressive in talking about the Elves and their 'Light' as if it were a literal resource they require to live, and not a quality of their souls intrinsic to them as bestowed by Iluvatar.
As for the legend itself: I don't think they're saying there's a secret fourth Silmaril - but that this tree grew around, or at least temporarily stored one of the extant three. Of those three, one is most thoroughly accounted for, flying through the sky as a star. The other two were claimed by different sons of Feanor who, according to the Simlarillion, threw themselves into the sea and a fiery chasm respectively - its neatly symetrical, with one gem each in the earth, the sea, and sky, but does not rule out conflicting accounts for what happened to them, as those two brothers did whatever they did with the Silmarils on their own without witnesses.
Which is why it bears repeating that Tolkien wrote these stories to be myths as written by people who existed in our really real world, and not factual accounts of real events in a fantastical place, as you might see in fantasy works these days.
But yeah, I think its complete bunk - the signs and portents are pointing to doom rising again from the east, maybe even literally just Adar's apparent plot to blot out the sun. Gil Galad is convinced it can't be that so is grasping at straws to explain it with (actually) magic metal and vital essence- you'd think someone would have noticed Southlands' watch company never came home and that might have given him second thoughts?
Mithril itself is not so wild and fantastic as all that, and it was never treated as such. Numenor has some (or will have some by trade after establishing contact with Middle Earth again, maybe?) the elves use it in all sorts of crafts that they gift and trade to humans and dwarves for - they even alloy it to make magic letters that appear only by starlight and moonlight, etc. We're right on the precipice of a golden age of love and trade between Elves and Dwarves and the idea that you need to motivate it with some existential threat to the Elves (real or imagined) is insulting to the audience. It can just be a cool metal, people!
I suspect there's going to be a reveal at some point that the Silmaril part never happened, and that the myth arose the way it did exclusively because of the Balrog. Then again, it'd be just as easy to say the elf in question was Maedhros, and that he fell into that pit while fighting a Balrog who'd come to claim his hard won Silmaril from him or something.
Also, Durin's antics with the table are fun Dwarf stuff, but I'd rather he hadn't done that. The actor's charismatic enough that he could have played the perfectly polite statesman and still demanded the table to show how desperate the elves were to make the deal work.
Interesting food for thought, thanks for that Captain Joystick. What you have said makes sense and I would tend to agree with you.
And yes, the scenes with the Harfoots where “no one gets left behind….” until someone does… are again jarring. The inconsistency is what makes my head hurt.
Spoiler:
Arondil's “action scene” in episode 4makes no sense to me. Why release him to deliver a message to then have him killed before he can deliver the message? How did he get his weapons? Did the Orcs give them back? Why? Did he recover them from some hidden cache? That is my head canon on it I guess. The excellent Orc archers that shot the Elven Captain previously clearly had a day off during Arondil's flight….
Something I seem to recall Bernard Cornwell using in the Uhtred Saga.
because the Orcs weren't chasing Arondir,
Spoiler:
they where chasing THEO
. Whom Arondir was protecting. seriously, it's not hard to grasp.
Let me spell it out for you.
Spoiler:
the sword is clearly the important artifact Adar is chasing. he released Arondir to ask the townsfolk to surrender, because he figured if they did we could get the location of the sword hilt easiest.
after they saw Theo with it though obviously the objective became GET THEO
Kid_Kyoto wrote: The people railing about Elves stealing our jobs knocked me out of the story, it was same sort of present day stuff as the dwarf tossing joke in LotR.
Just clumsy.
Now the scene in episode 1 where the humans gripe about elves controlling their land, that seemed for a second to be a modern comment about Iraq (or Palestine or where ever) but then it occurred to me it was just a appropriate for Ireland or India at the time Tolkien was writing, or about Israel during the Roman Empire.
Xenophobic concerns about job loss did not strike me as a modern concern only. And it certainly did not jar me as much as “nobody tosses a Dwarf” but to each their own.
that's because it's not modern, xenophobic worries about job loss is as old as immigration. Anyone who thinks it's a "modern thing" is at best historicly ignorant.
Racism (as we are used to thinking about it) is a modern phenomenon and not depicted in this show.
As others have said, fear of the outsider/foreigner is as old as human society. Just off the top of my head, the myth about Medea and Jason comes to mind. Framing the question economically is no doubt meant to create real-life relatability but more importantly to highlight that Elves and Men are not different races in the IRL sense but significantly more different.
The Numenoreans are afraid that elves are going to take their jerbs, despite the only elf in the city not doing anything to indicate that she wants a job, and constantly demanding to leave.
In fact the only person who has LITERALLY tried to take one of their jobs is a man.
Lord Damocles wrote: The Numenoreans are afraid that elves are going to take their jerbs, despite the only elf in the city not doing anything to indicate that she wants a job, and constantly demanding to leave.
In fact the only person who has LITERALLY tried to take one of their jobs is a man.
It’s almost as if such concerns are rarely all that rational?
Speaking of racial tensions and political messaging; has anyone pointed out that we have a northern Mediterranean country complaining about shipwrecked refugees?
Lord Damocles wrote: The Numenoreans are afraid that elves are going to take their jerbs, despite the only elf in the city not doing anything to indicate that she wants a job, and constantly demanding to leave.
In fact the only person who has LITERALLY tried to take one of their jobs is a man.
It’s almost as if such concerns are rarely all that rational?
There still needs to be a triggering incident for someone to make the leap. 1 Elf and 1 human tag-along are not going to realistically cause this kind of reaction in even the most Xenophobic society. It is a comical stretch that only exists because the writers were trying to tie in IRL drama. It has no logical justification for being there, it just is because the writers willed it to be.
Again, it shows the absurd lack of ability, talent, and experience on the part of the writers for a billion $ show.
And despite this apparently massive xenophobia which has developed to the point we are shown, they still have tons of volunteers for the mission to Middle Earth. The malcontent with the Galadrial's presence is completely forgotten by the general public almost immediately.
Lord Damocles wrote: The Numenoreans are afraid that elves are going to take their jerbs, despite the only elf in the city not doing anything to indicate that she wants a job, and constantly demanding to leave.
In fact the only person who has LITERALLY tried to take one of their jobs is a man.
It’s almost as if such concerns are rarely all that rational?
There still needs to be a triggering incident for someone to make the leap. 1 Elf and 1 human tag-along are not going to realistically cause this kind of reaction in even the most Xenophobic society. It is a comical stretch that only exists because the writers were trying to tie in IRL drama. It has no logical justification for being there, it just is because the writers willed it to be.
Again, it shows the absurd lack of ability, talent, and experience on the part of the writers for a billion $ show.
And despite this apparently massive xenophobia which has developed to the point we are shown, they still have tons of volunteers for the mission to Middle Earth. The malcontent with the Galadrial's presence is completely forgotten by the general public almost immediately.
Well populations of large cities tend to be large. So totally understandable that even with a cohort of malcontents, there will be a larger segment of the population that aren't so ready to bring out the burning pitchforks.
The scene with the malcontents didn't show the entire population up in arms, but rather a small section of it.
And yes, the scenes with the Harfoots where “no one gets left behind….” until someone does… are again jarring. The inconsistency is what makes my head hurt.
Spoiler:
Arondil's “action scene” in episode 4makes no sense to me. Why release him to deliver a message to then have him killed before he can deliver the message? How did he get his weapons? Did the Orcs give them back? Why? Did he recover them from some hidden cache? That is my head canon on it I guess. The excellent Orc archers that shot the Elven Captain previously clearly had a day off during Arondil's flight….
Something I seem to recall Bernard Cornwell using in the Uhtred Saga.
because the Orcs weren't chasing Arondir,
Spoiler:
they where chasing THEO
. Whom Arondir was protecting. seriously, it's not hard to grasp.
Let me spell it out for you.
Spoiler:
the sword is clearly the important artifact Adar is chasing. he released Arondir to ask the townsfolk to surrender, because he figured if they did we could get the location of the sword hilt easiest.
after they saw Theo with it though obviously the objective became GET THEO
Kid_Kyoto wrote: The people railing about Elves stealing our jobs knocked me out of the story, it was same sort of present day stuff as the dwarf tossing joke in LotR.
Just clumsy.
Now the scene in episode 1 where the humans gripe about elves controlling their land, that seemed for a second to be a modern comment about Iraq (or Palestine or where ever) but then it occurred to me it was just a appropriate for Ireland or India at the time Tolkien was writing, or about Israel during the Roman Empire.
Xenophobic concerns about job loss did not strike me as a modern concern only. And it certainly did not jar me as much as “nobody tosses a Dwarf” but to each their own.
that's because it's not modern, xenophobic worries about job loss is as old as immigration. Anyone who thinks it's a "modern thing" is at best historicly ignorant.
No need to be rude about it BrianDavion. Yes, you are quite correct the Orcs were chasing Theo and the Sword. That still does not explain Arondil's weapons. I may be wrong but I do not remember him wearing armor in that scene but he has armor, damaged armor at that, in the tower. I am curious where it is from. I can create my own head canon but I prefer a show to at least give me some hints at least. I understand getting the right balance of just enough without “hand holding” is difficult.
To be clear, I find the writing in Rings of Power to be the weakest link. It is not abysmal but I would have hoped a flagship project like this would have done better.
* I quite enjoyed the song and the Halflings are less annoyig than I anticipated
* I also liked that the humans did not all unite against the Orcs and many tried to join them
* The relief force of the great and powerful Numenor is a grand total of .....500 soldiers and three transport ships.....its wierd with such a budget it all seems so small scale.
* Elrond/Dwarf is still a stand out but I still like Galadriel
but then we had...
Spoiler:
The Elves need a recharge from the Simiril - ok WT actual F??
I was a little disappointed when Orc Boss did cliche evil guy stuff when the humans showed up to serve him. I wish he had thwarted expectations and actually just accepted them.
I don't think he killed them all, maybe just the one dude to sacrifice/prove the loyalty of old guy. You'd think we would have seen a little more explicit carnage if they had just killed them all.
Plus, another minor detail that they have glossed over. Sauron explicitly forbids the use of his name by his servants. You're not allowed to call him Sauron. That is a name given by the Elves/Valar which means "The Abhorred". In Sindarin he is called Gorthaur, which means Abominable or Abhorrent.
These are all names that darkly mirror his first name, Mairon. Which means Admirable or Excellent. And he was said to have been obsessed with order and perfection in his time as a servant of Aule. The names he has been given by the Free Peoples are not just names to describe his evil. They are deliberate and explicit slander and rebuke of his "real" name. A bit like a clean freak named Squeeky McClean being called Dirty McDirtface Stinkbutt.
Calling his Sauron is pretty much a personal attack on his character, so he should be taking grave insult to anyone who calls him by it. This is why his servants in the LOTR books only ever call him the Dark Lord or some variation.
My personal belief so far is that Adar is a failed orc conversion - whilst his mind was twisted, the physical transformation was left incomplete and my guess is there's some crazy disfigurement under the bits of armor that he doesn't remove (on his left arm) and perhaps feels kinship to the orcs under his command because of this (hence his rather emotional response to the dying orcs)
This makes sense to me considering the show only has the rights to the Appendices and things referenced in LOTR proper, and this would be a direct reference to Saruman's line about the origins of orcs (despite Tolkien walking that back later)
A cast member that plays one of the 3 creepy folks(Eminems's crew) inspecting the meteor man's crater noted that their character comes from Rhun. Not sure if that reveals any clues on their identity.
nels1031 wrote: A cast member that plays one of the 3 creepy folks(Eminems's crew) inspecting the meteor man's crater noted that their character comes from Rhun. Not sure if that reveals any clues on their identity.
other than being from the East and having traveled fary to get to the comet's destination, not much
This whole show just chugs its wheels towards foregone conclusions or endless mystery boxes (are we sure this isn't a JJ Abrams production?).
Will Mystery Guy #1 go back with Galadriel? Of course he will. Will Isildur end up as part of the fleet? Of course he will. Will Mystery Guy 2 do something to scare Norri away? Of course he will.
Spoiler:
Galadriel: You should come back with me and reclaim your throne! Mystery Guy #1: I don't want to! Galadriel: But you should come back with me and reclaim your throne! Mystery Guy #1: Ok.
Isildur: I want to be part of the fleet! Elendil: No! Isildur: But I want to be part of the fleet! Elendil: Ok.
Girl: We need stand up and fight. Elf Dude: Yes! Girl: We should give up! Elf Dude: No!
Mystery Guy #2: Am I a peril? Norri: No you're a friend! Mystery Guy #2: *Freezes arm* Norri: Eek! A peril!
Old Man: I pledge allegiance to you, Sauron! Mystery Guy #3: *says nothing* Old Man: You are Sauron, right? Mystery Guy #3: *says nothing*
Gil-Galad: You have to break your oath to Durin! Elrond: I won't break my oath to Durin! Gil-Galad: But you have to break your oath to Durin! Elrond: Ok.
It reminds me of the concept of "distracted viewing", something soap operas are built upon, where you'll have 4-5 different scenes per episode that are played out in a few different ways between each act break, the idea being that the person watching the show is often doing something else (the premise was based on a house-wife doing chores whilst half-watching the show), so you didn't need to see every bit as each time we go back to the characters, they're really just repeating what they did the first time around in a different way, with some changes here and there.
Here I get the same thing. We know what's going to happen from the outset, but they do so much pointless faffing about and melodrama that it just drags everything to a crawl.
judgedoug wrote: My personal belief so far is that Adar is a failed orc conversion - whilst his mind was twisted, the physical transformation was left incomplete and my guess is there's some crazy disfigurement under the bits of armor that he doesn't remove (on his left arm) and perhaps feels kinship to the orcs under his command because of this (hence his rather emotional response to the dying orcs)
This makes sense to me considering the show only has the rights to the Appendices and things referenced in LOTR proper, and this would be a direct reference to Saruman's line about the origins of orcs (despite Tolkien walking that back later)
I don't think so. I think he is one of the original Elves who were taken by Morgoth, or at least early in the lineage, whose descendants became Orcs. Not a failed conversion, just a step on the path.
The elves taken originally wouldn't necessarily have transformed into orcs directly, rather I think it would have been a generational thing. Otherwise, the numerous Elves who were taken prisoner by Morgoth over the years would surely have all become Orcs. So him just looking like a beat-up scarred Elf would make sense. It would also make sense why they call him Father, because he is both literally and figuratively a grandsire.
This is the part I like, and I think the show would have been better off to focus more on something like this. Just do an entire show in the East with stuff like this.
H.B.M.C. wrote: This whole show just chugs its wheels towards foregone conclusions or endless mystery boxes (are we sure this isn't a JJ Abrams production?).
Will Mystery Guy #1 go back with Galadriel? Of course he will. Will Isildur end up as part of the fleet? Of course he will. Will Mystery Guy 2 do something to scare Norri away? Of course he will.
The curse of doing the past of characters we know already. Still, it's the journey, not the destination that matters, but Isildur's standing in the eyes of his father was a bit quick - I'd have preferred it if that had been more of a journey, that he spend some more time earning it over a few episodes. I'm more interested in Earien and Kemen. I'm willing to think there's a growing anti-elf cult that's willing to resort to violence in the city (and that Sauron's there already - stirring things up).
It reminds me of the concept of "distracted viewing", something soap operas are built upon, where you'll have 4-5 different scenes per episode that are played out in a few different ways between each act break, the idea being that the person watching the show is often doing something else (the premise was based on a house-wife doing chores whilst half-watching the show), so you didn't need to see every bit as each time we go back to the characters, they're really just repeating what they did the first time around in a different way, with some changes here and there.
Here I get the same thing. We know what's going to happen from the outset, but they do so much pointless faffing about and melodrama that it just drags everything to a crawl.
Interesting. I'll have to watch out for that the next time I'm unlucky enough to watch a soap.
The Stranger - I'm torn between him being Olorin, as a kind of proto-Gandalf, with his time here being where he picks up his affection for the hobbits, or, yes, he is Sauron. The Silmarillion mentions that Sauron was genuinely remorseful once captured after the destruction of Angband, so his time here with the Harfoots is maybe his 'community service' to prove his good intentions, with the white robed cultists being Morgothites (or even Balrogs in human form) looking for a new leader.
Please note our source of this 'mithril ' myth is Thranduil- the king who has lied about honoring Galadriel, and instead sent her to Valinor very much against her will.
Mostly because she's causing too much fuss trying to fight Sauron, who he is certain is dead.
He then lied to Elrond, to use him as a spy, and encouraged him to betray his friendship with the dwarves. Now this was also to confirm something- so he already knew of the rumors of mithril before sending him.
He then proves unknowledgable about dwarf lore, and rather than verifying it, immediately has his table gifted to Durin.
Has he at any point in the series been right, or even told the truth? Why on middle earth are we willing to trust him now? I believe he wants mithril, yes, but I think he spun a cool story to further manipulate Elrond. Or has been told a story to manipulate him in turn- if we've got Sauron poisoning the trees, and spinning tales about how mithril will solve it to get the ore he needs to forge rings- ingenious. How do people who live long enough to personally witness the distant past have unnamed, unknown heroes that did such signifcant deeds?
judgedoug wrote: My personal belief so far is that Adar is a failed orc conversion - whilst his mind was twisted, the physical transformation was left incomplete and my guess is there's some crazy disfigurement under the bits of armor that he doesn't remove (on his left arm) and perhaps feels kinship to the orcs under his command because of this (hence his rather emotional response to the dying orcs)
This makes sense to me considering the show only has the rights to the Appendices and things referenced in LOTR proper, and this would be a direct reference to Saruman's line about the origins of orcs (despite Tolkien walking that back later)
I don't think so. I think he is one of the original Elves who were taken by Morgoth, or at least early in the lineage, whose descendants became Orcs. Not a failed conversion, just a step on the path.
The elves taken originally wouldn't necessarily have transformed into orcs directly, rather I think it would have been a generational thing. Otherwise, the numerous Elves who were taken prisoner by Morgoth over the years would surely have all become Orcs. So him just looking like a beat-up scarred Elf would make sense. It would also make sense why they call him Father, because he is both literally and figuratively a grandsire.
This is the part I like, and I think the show would have been better off to focus more on something like this. Just do an entire show in the East with stuff like this.
That would be quite interesting, certainly a while season of that story being the main plot driver would be one that I'd like.
And honestly I think it being a generational thing with twisted Elves's offspring becoming orcs over generations is itself about the most twisted thing you can do. You've got these elves who have been twisted and mutilated seeing their children and grandchildren turn into monsters before their eyes. While they can still enjoy the suns warmth, they are tormented by the fact their children cannot. And their immortality becomes a thorn in their side as it forces them to watch the successive generations of their children suffer.
I think it very much fits with Tolkein saying that Morgoth's twisting of Elves into Orcs was his most heinous sin against Eru.
And some of these elves may have been rescued when Angband was overthrown in the War of Wrath, and possibly taken west to heal in Valinor, though how much healing could be done from such evil things is debatable.
MarkNorfolk wrote: Still, it's the journey, not the destination that matters...
Which is what my spoilered section dealt with: The journey is boring and has no surprises. The journey is just a false obstacle that we know will be removed by the end to get us to the obvious conclusion.
MarkNorfolk wrote: Still, it's the journey, not the destination that matters...
Which is what my spoilered section dealt with: The journey is boring and has no surprises. The journey is just a false obstacle that we know will be removed by the end to get us to the obvious conclusion.
Sorry (not sorry) to be that guy... but that is true of Marvel, DC, Star Wars, Star Trek, and most "geek" shows. They are formulaic, and emotionally stunted, due to having no real danger for the characters. With the ever increasing use of CGI, I find that story quality has only got worse.
Good to see Adar coming more into focus and his plan being realized. He is probably the most interesting aspect of the show at this point. Too bad we didn't see him fight yet. Mount Doom erupting was a visual spectacle, but I wonder how all our Characters will have survived that scene.
The Halbrand/Galadriel/Numenor plot remains contrived and lacking. Their arrival is too convenient, their numbers too small for what Numenor should be able to bring to bear, their armor looks bad. Numenor has a problem of scope that needs to be fixed going forward. We need more extras for that massive city of theirs, a much bigger military presence and more competence/confidence in general.
Halbrand teleporting around and in front of Adar was silly, but I did enjoy Galadriel doing fancy horse moves. The fighting in general was enjoyable and visceral. Bronwyn's arrow wound getting treated and the townspeople being threatened / casually slaughtered inside the Inn to give up the sword hilt was a gruesome and tense scene. Well done.
Probably the best episode yet, but still some atrocious dialogue and it was a low bar set by the first 5 episodes. Show continues to be pretty brutal, which I don’t mind, but seems out of place compared to the two movie trilogies.
As expected, the show is better when its focused. Was glad there were no cuts to the hobbits, or the goons back in Numenor as that would’ve cut into the tension.
Cool to get confirmation on what Adar is. Actually looking forward to the next episode for once, though I still think the show is mostly ass.
Oh, yeah, suddenly teleporting so far ahead of the bad guy definitely had my groan. Like I figured he was following behind and would have just done a heroic long range spear throw, but nope, we bamf.
Atrocious episode. It's so frustrating how terribly written the show is considering all of the other things they nailed. It looks and feels like Middle Earth, they threw together an ensemble of pretty solid solid performers, the tone and atmosphere are spot on, but holy hell the writing is bad.
Not a great episode, mostly due to bad writing and just... wtf are they even doing?
The fighting scenes just seem so cheap. They have no sense of scale and did nothing to convince me that the Numenoreans are actually soldiers, presumably trained for years and disciplined. Yet they just charge in like undisciplined rabble. No fighting in orderly ranks or anything to distinguish themselves from the orcs or the civilians.
And like this is one bum-feth nowhere village with like 5 houses. How are there like 100 survivors even after the orc attack and half of them joining Adar?
You've got a billion $ budget and you couldn't spring for an actual town, maybe with a palisade, and just a larger # of people overall? Something the size of Bree perhaps. And you couldn't practice with the extras a little to make the Numenoreans ride in straight-ish lines and fight in some nice, disciplined ranks to make them seem cool and well trained. My warband in Mount and Blade holds a formation better than those guys.
And like, why are the villagers surprised that they had to fight their turncoat people... That doesn't seem like something that should have surprised them.
A billion $ show and they can't even have some cool battles with appropriate scale. The whole LOTR Trilogy was shy of $400 million and that had 3 massive epic sized battles. These guys can't even muster 1 small skirmish that seems believable.
And like this is one bum-feth nowhere village with like 5 houses. How are there like 100 survivors even after the orc attack and half of them joining Adar?
The previous episode showed refugees coming from all over the region to the watchtower, so I don't think they're necessarily all from one village. I always got the impression that the village wasn't where everyone lived, most would be from isolated farmsteads and crofts, and the village was the local hub with the tavern, blacksmith etc.
You are right, I do remember that. Still seems like too many people survived hiding in that tavern than could actually fit. And they still should have had a decent sized town.
Well that episode is most certainly not family friendly.
A massive departure from the tone of the LoTR films, those can be watched and enjoyed by a family. This... not so much, which I think will limit the audience. It just feels like it is aping GoT and being edgy with the gore and limb hacking.
Story is still a bit dull, but my word is it visually stunning.
The gore has definitely been front and center, but without any of the emotional connection. I feel like the Peter Jackson trilogy made less gory moments feel more intense than this has. Its all shallow and flat.
Thoroughly enjoyed that, and mummy and daddy said I can get the Collapsing Elven Watchtower Playset with Alexa™ Integration And Secret Dam Release Feature for Christmas!!
Azreal13 wrote: Thoroughly enjoyed that, and mummy and daddy said I can get the Collapsing Elven Watchtower Playset with Alexa™ Integration And Secret Dam Release Feature for Christmas!!
Anyone else think that the tower was a little too easy to collapse. I know Elves have shoddy workmanship, but that thing had all the integrity of play dough.
So, I appear to have come down with the flu. (Two rapid tests two days apart have consistently come back negative.) So, I am going to take the time I have now to be lucid and mobile to run down to the local drug store and get some fething nyquil.
I'll be back with a more detailed breakdown later, but I will say right now, I really enjoyed this episode and it felt like a pretty good payoff for the buildup we've seen so far. It's also amusingly, if one counts the hours, about where in the theatrical cuts Helps Deep happens and the Jackson Trilogy shifts tone noticeably.
stonehorse wrote:Well that episode is most certainly not family friendly.
A massive departure from the tone of the LoTR films, those can be watched and enjoyed by a family. This... not so much, which I think will limit the audience. It just feels like it is aping GoT and being edgy with the gore and limb hacking.
I will point out, for the record, that the Jackson films have tons of conspicuously bloodless arrow wounds, dismemberments and decapitations. People were very critical about it being too violent back in the day.
stonehorse wrote:
Azreal13 wrote: Thoroughly enjoyed that, and mummy and daddy said I can get the Collapsing Elven Watchtower Playset with Alexa™ Integration And Secret Dam Release Feature for Christmas!!
Anyone else think that the tower was a little too easy to collapse. I know Elves have shoddy workmanship, but that thing had all the integrity of play dough.
Its clearly deliberate to some extent, since the weak spot seems to be a rope that can only be severed by a precise arrow shot from within the keep. But I do question whether it would compromise the structure of the tower in a siege scenario - even that may be a side-benefit, since it seems engineered to collapse down into the mountainside approach.
Azreal13 wrote: Thoroughly enjoyed that, and mummy and daddy said I can get the Collapsing Elven Watchtower Playset with Alexa™ Integration And Secret Dam Release Feature for Christmas!!
Anyone else think that the tower was a little too easy to collapse. I know Elves have shoddy workmanship, but that thing had all the integrity of play dough.
Super easy, barely an inconvenience! But I also loved how it didn’t mess with the keyhole at all or apparently undue hinderende his access to it.
A lot of modern fantasy shows get it wrong by not approaching the genre seriously. Of course Fantasy is unrealistic, but that doesn't mean it has to be unbelievable. Tolkien is totally idiosyncratic, that's part of its brilliance, but you can't replicate Tolkien by using the same idiosyncracies and expecting the same result. It seems no-one can write fantasy these days without it coming across as made-for-teens, and that's because there's no depth to the characters or dialogue. Fight scenes are the same old thing: someone's about to get killed, but oh, they're saved at the last second! Again, and again, and again. This is not exciting stuff, it's predictable, and a bit of an insult to the viewer's intelligence. The characters' fortunes are almost designed on a whim, and it prevents you from caring about what happens to them. Stopped watching.
site note: I found Galadriel's height more of a problem than I perhaps should have. Why is she so short? Elves are tall. Will she grow 6 inches in the next few hundred years or what?
Legloas and Haldir never struck me as particularly tall....
I get what you're saying about the fight scenes, we knew Arondir would get rescued. It would have been better if his own 'badass-ness' had saved him (I thought that the orc might end up down the well) or he was saved by someone unexpected.
I'm still enjoying it. The fleshing out Adar was good is he elf? Is he uruk? Or... is he both?
Spoiler:
The tower resembling the final collapse of Barad-Dur (or should that be the other way around) was a nice touch.
I was expecting Arondir to get saved by one of the guys who called him knife ears in the tavern, and they could then share a brief, meaningful look of respect.
AduroT wrote: I was expecting Arondir to get saved by one of the guys who called him knife ears in the tavern, and they could then share a brief, meaningful look of respect.
pretty sure the knife ears guy was one of the guys
This episode exclusively focused on the Galadriel/Numenor and Arondir/Southlands plots lines, and reasonably so, since this is the episode where those two storylines merge.
More importantly a lot of stuff that we saw get gradually set up over the past five episodes get payed off here:
Spoiler:
We get Adar's backstory at last, and while some people seem to think it's a feint of some kind, I think we can take it at face value: He's an elf, possibly even one of the Quendi, twisted and corrupted by Morgoth and an ancestor of the Orcs.
Likewise his plan to kill the sun is completed and we see it was to use that tunnel he had the Orcs digging to redirect vast amounts of water underneath Mt. Doom to cause it to erupt, choking the Southlands in ash and dust until it may be a place where the shadows perpetually lie.
Galadriel's speculation that this can't be just his plan has some merit: the dam or whatever it was was covered in effigies of Sauron and the like, and was clearly very old. For all Adar's talk about wanting to be free of Sauron it seems that some element of all this was planned out well in advance.
Arondir finally works up the nerve to admit how he feels to Bronwyn and I was sure this was sure the moment that arrow went through her she was going to die. I was actually quite surprised she pulled through.
Halbrand, still clearly doubting himself, none the less takes up the title of King of the Southlands at last. Whatever that means after that ending I have no idea.
Honestly, I'd love it if the last two episodes focussed on resolving the other plotlines and we never find out what happens to Galadriel and company until Season 2 - but we already know better from the next episode preview.
Just some thoughts:
Violence.
Spoiler:
This got brought up earlier but I do think it does merit some discussion. Rings of Power is Rated 14+, the same in Amazon's arbitrary rating system as the PG-13 Lord of the Rings movies. It is, however, easily more violent, and the bulk of that difference is in its use of CGI squibs and blood effects that Netflix and other streaming services have been inserting casually into their original programming for years now.
It doesn't look realistically violent in Lord of the Rings when a guy gets his arm lopped off and there's no blood or anything, its equally unrealistic when someone gets their arm lopped off in Rings of Power and there's a big gooey splat of pudding thrown at the camera from out of the stump. It most certainly does not seem more realistic when an orc is trying to strangle our hero while a cartoonish amount of CGI blood is pouring out of his eye socket, in fact, at this point it just becomes obnoxious.
The only point where we become really, well and truly more violent than LotR is the scene where Bronwyn has her arrow wound treated. It contrasts so sharply with Frodo's stab wound where they had to make a goofy dissapearing CGI blade and jump through all sorts of other hoops to keep their PG-13 rating, only for RoP to have multiple closeups of blood gushing out of wounds, burn scars, etc. There's an old joke that you can basically get away with anything in a PG-13 movie as long as you don't swear or show more than 30% of someone's body, but in 2001 that scene absolutely would have landed you an R rating.
Original Ideas.
Spoiler:
AKA the 'fanfic' problem
Last episode we got the 'Elves needing Mithril to live' thing and it's a great example of how wrong things can go when these show writers try to work in their own ideas to flesh out the (very barebones) Second Age material that they have to work with (or exists, at all)
This episode we have a great example of a positive outcome from the same problem: Adar and Galadriel have a great little discussion about the Orcs and whether they deserve to exist and its pretty great.
Tolkien struggled with the orcs for a long time, he had trouble reconciling the idea of an entirely evil race, even at times wanting to renege on the idea that they were originally elves and perhaps were instead corrupted men, or even something else entirely. Galadriel, in her part of the argument, is drawing entirely from published texts: the orcs are a corrupted, ruined form of life, inherantly foul, creations of Morgoth etc.; and Adar's response is, I think, a well considered original idea that is informed by Tolkien's struggle to reconcile these ideas: None of the Ainur can bestow life, only Iluvatar. The ability to live, the right to live, is bestowed by the One and He has given that to the Orcs just as surely as he gave it to the Dwarves and the others.
As far as answers go its a pretty compelling one, even if it doesn't really help the underlying conflict at all.
Music
Spoiler:
Guys this music is so gorgeous, come on now.
Bear McCreary's use of simple leitmotif for different places and persons is coming together so well here.
I can't stop geeking out about it.
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AduroT wrote: I was expecting Arondir to get saved by one of the guys who called him knife ears in the tavern, and they could then share a brief, meaningful look of respect.
The guy who calls him knife-ears in the tavern is the guy who...
Spoiler:
was killed by Waldreg to prove his loyalty.
I think, anyway.
That said.
Spoiler:
Tredwill, the big burly villager in the sheepskin who said he was brave and shook his hand after the battle (and then got arrow'd) was one of the hostile villagers in the bar during that scene too.
I loved the interrogation scene with Galadriel and Adar. Great performances. They managed to make Galadriel seem like the villain, which was nice. So sure of herself, so contemptuous of the orcs (sorry uruks). Adar is definitely a standout character.
honestly the whole scene between Galadriel and Adar I almost felt was VERY MUCH taken right from tolkiens letters regarding the orks and his conflicted feelings on them
I think my only real complaint with episode 6 was the awkward pacing and setup at the beginning - perhaps that it should have had the last bit of episode 5 at the beginning. Idiots on the internet are like "derp how did Numenor ships teleport overnight?!" when it's obvious the timelines aren't running simultaneously. But there is a point there in that I wish we had a bit of a breather between the "land spotted" and "cavalry on the move" scene - even a short scene showing the unloading of the boats with like Elendil getting word that "scouts have spotted smoke" and a "make ready a company of men" line, as an intermediary scene.
Also, I get the idea of stonework pre-engineered to be collapsible to block the pass, but the scene felt cheapened as the audience discovered the purpose _after_ the trap had been sprung. My response, instead of "what? oh WOW!" was instead "what? oh... wait... okay, I see."
Other than that those nitpicks I enjoyed episode 6.
Well, speaking of who needs to be taller. Elendil. He was called Elendil the Tall. He has a canon height of 7'11" which is only 3 inches shy of the tallest person in all of Tolkeins works(Thingol, who was 8'2" and was the tallest being among Elves or Men)
I loved the interrogation scene with Galadriel and Adar. Great performances. They managed to make Galadriel seem like the villain, which was nice. So sure of herself, so contemptuous of the orcs (sorry uruks). Adar is definitely a standout character.
I think my only real complaint with episode 6 was the awkward pacing and setup at the beginning - perhaps that it should have had the last bit of episode 5 at the beginning. Idiots on the internet are like "derp how did Numenor ships teleport overnight?!" when it's obvious the timelines aren't running simultaneously. But there is a point there in that I wish we had a bit of a breather between the "land spotted" and "cavalry on the move" scene - even a short scene showing the unloading of the boats with like Elendil getting word that "scouts have spotted smoke" and a "make ready a company of men" line, as an intermediary scene.
Also, I get the idea of stonework pre-engineered to be collapsible to block the pass, but the scene felt cheapened as the audience discovered the purpose _after_ the trap had been sprung. My response, instead of "what? oh WOW!" was instead "what? oh... wait... okay, I see."
Other than that those nitpicks I enjoyed episode 6.
I have no issue with time passes stuff but the fact that the army and fleet to liberate a whole continent is.....300 men and 3 ships is frankly pathetic especially given the supposed power of Numenor and the budget of the show - it should have been a vast fleet and legions of soldiers....
I have no issue with time passes stuff but the fact that the army and fleet to liberate a whole continent is.....300 men and 3 ships is frankly pathetic especially given the supposed power of Numenor and the budget of the show - it should have been a vast fleet and legions of soldiers....
I have no issue with time passes stuff but the fact that the army and fleet to liberate a whole continent is.....300 men and 3 ships is frankly pathetic especially given the supposed power of Numenor and the budget of the show - it should have been a vast fleet and legions of soldiers....
it's an expeditionary force.
Yeah, an expeditionary force should be something that could actually handle more than a tiny village's worth of people. Any outbreak of disease or conflict would mean barely enough men left to potentially to man the ships back to warn Numenor. Hell, assuming there's a storm, the expedition could just stop there with this small size.
yeah I don't understand this complaint at all and seems to be borne out of a total misunderstanding or outright ignoring dialog and scenes from episodes. It was discussed several times that Numenor is _not_ going to war so the idea was to send a small number of people to find out what is going on based on what Galadriel has said and to perhaps use Halbrand's position to unite the Southland peoples. To achieve this goal without any political backlash they used an all-volunteer expeditionary force. (The fact that the volunteers heavily outnumbered the positions available also sets up the idea of the Faithful being the ones who will mainly wind up heading to Middle-earth)
Sending a massive invasion force 5,000 dudes without any proper reconnaissance of the political and military disposition of the region is a recipe for disaster both at home and where they're going.
With a foothold achieved and assuming diplomatic ties gained with the inhabitants then additional ships would arrive to establish trade routes and colonies with a real military presence (also discussed in the show).
judgedoug wrote: yeah I don't understand this complaint at all and seems to be borne out of a total misunderstanding or outright ignoring dialog and scenes from episodes.
Then why is the Queen going if this is a small scouting mission?
Monarchs do not go anywhere without a small army following them. 5,000 soldiers would be the bare minimum for a monarch leaving their countries borders to a known hostile location. This is not ignoring the dialogue or scenes. It is judging those scenes in light of the background and setting.
I could maybe forgive it if the queen had NOT gone, but she did.
Furthermore, the 3 ships that did go are simply too small to carry 100 people each. They can barely have 20 people on their decks, no way do they have 300 people each AND 250-300 horses too.
Monarchs do not go anywhere without a small army following them. 5,000 soldiers would be the bare minimum for a monarch leaving their countries borders to a known hostile location. This is not ignoring the dialogue or scenes. It is judging those scenes in light of the background and setting.
One would assume because the Queen-regent has authorized the expedition and going lends the legitimacy it needs (to gain the volunteers) and, on a personal reason, she had a vision(s) of the destruction of Numenor coupled with witnessing the literal intervention by God of Nimloth shedding it's leaves. Add on the assumption (correct or not) of Halbrand's royal lineage and Galadriel's station and it seems less than politic to not accompany them. Personally, the sign from Eru that if you don't do what Galadriel asks is enough reasoning for me, not counting the other things.
Furthermore, the 3 ships that did go are simply too small to carry 100 people each. They can barely have 20 people on their decks, no way do they have 300 people each AND 250-300 horses too.
This is one of the many recent internet complaints, but considering we know that Ramsey Avery constructed a full size ship (with 30-foot sails) and bothered to hire real-life sailors to make the seafaring scenes as accurate as possible I'm going to toss this one into the "wholly ignorable criticism" by sheer weight of value of an expert designing the ships, until the inevitable behind-the-scenes production books are released and either confirm or deny the volume and mass requirements of stowage.
This show has a lot of problems and I feel I'm in an awkward position by defending it, but criticisms should be justified and not carte blanche complaints
If you feel awkward defending the show, it probably shows that its not worth defending.
Just because the ships are legitimate ships doesn't mean they aren't too small. Yes, they are very nice ships. I have no issue with the design or how they function. They're just. too. dang. small. for 100 people and some number of horses each. This shows there is a disconnect between the writers, prop producers, and everything else. Nobody is crosschecking to see that everything fits. Complaining that the ships and the # of people shown does not match what was said in dialogue is a legitimate complaint. As is complaining that the scale is off.
And this is an issue that has no reason to exist. They have the budget to have more ships, or make the ships bigger, have more extras, etc... They did not do any of those things.
The ship is a very nice set/prop. One they clearly copy-pasted using CGI to make there be 2 more. Why they didn't do that 5-10 more times so we had a more believable scale is a clearly bad decision. It flies in the face of how Numenor is described, large and powerful with a massive navy and disciplined soldiers and sailors. The scale they have delivered is kinda lame when you take it all in together,
One would assume because the Queen-regent has authorized the expedition and going lends the legitimacy it needs (to gain the volunteers) and, on a personal reason, she had a vision(s) of the destruction of Numenor coupled with witnessing the literal intervention by God of Nimloth shedding it's leaves. Add on the assumption (correct or not) of Halbrand's royal lineage and Galadriel's station and it seems less than politic to not accompany them. Personally, the sign from Eru that if you don't do what Galadriel asks is enough reasoning for me, not counting the other things.
One would assume that a ruler that felt so strongly about the divine signs would send more support on the mission than a paltry 300 people on 3 tiny ships...
If they wanted to keep it small scale, make the Queen not involved at all beyond giving token approval. Have Elendil finance it out of his personal pockets and those of the Faithful. This would excuse the smaller scale of the expedition, though I would still say they'd need a dozen ships of the size shown to properly match what is stated as the number of people.
judgedoug wrote: yeah I don't understand this complaint at all and seems to be borne out of a total misunderstanding or outright ignoring dialog and scenes from episodes. It was discussed several times that Numenor is _not_ going to war so the idea was to send a small number of people to find out what is going on based on what Galadriel has said and to perhaps use Halbrand's position to unite the Southland peoples. To achieve this goal without any political backlash they used an all-volunteer expeditionary force. (The fact that the volunteers heavily outnumbered the positions available also sets up the idea of the Faithful being the ones who will mainly wind up heading to Middle-earth)
Sending a massive invasion force 5,000 dudes without any proper reconnaissance of the political and military disposition of the region is a recipe for disaster both at home and where they're going.
With a foothold achieved and assuming diplomatic ties gained with the inhabitants then additional ships would arrive to establish trade routes and colonies with a real military presence (also discussed in the show).
5000 not "massive invasion force", that would be a small expeditionary force considering much of it would be supply and support. They are supposed to be taking back a continent - and they are not sending scouts, not patrols but wandering far inland - I assume they are nowhere near the sea but its not at all clear.
No one is asking Galadriel why they are not linking up with the Elves.
It just looks all very petty and small scale - god knows what they spent the budget on.
Mr Morden wrote: 5000 not "massive invasion force", that would be a small expeditionary force considering much of it would be supply and support. They are supposed to be taking back a continent - and they are not sending scouts, not patrols but wandering far inland - I assume they are nowhere near the sea but its not at all clear.
There were 6000 Rohirrim at Pelennor and that was a pretty big scrap. Likewise, when William of Normandy invaded England, he did so with about 7-12000 soldiers and it's noted that his army was large for the time.
If Middle Earth conflicts are similar in scale to Medieval ones (the exceptions being the armies of Mordor where they can just pop Orcs out of the ground), 5000 mounted troops with ships and the ruler of the nation is an invasion force, not one that is trying to act as a supporting force to avoid political turmoil in the homeland. The goal of this expedition is to establish the strength of the enemy, reinstall the king of the Southlands, restore a bit of stability to the region (thereby allowing trade and cash money to flow) and to not ignore the signs of god telling you to do stuff. The people of Numenor didn't want war so the Queen is trying to do all of this without actually declaring war.
It just looks all very petty and small scale - god knows what they spent the budget on.
The sets, the CG, the actors, the extras, the costumes, the marketing...
It is still a very visually impressive show and that is clearly where the money has gone.
Grey Templar wrote: If you feel awkward defending the show, it probably shows that its not worth defending.
The point being I'd rather discuss actual issues with the show, none of which these happen to be.
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Gert wrote: It is still a very visually impressive show and that is clearly where the money has gone.
Yeah, we know Season 1 cost 700 million, including the rights (somewhere north of 200 million but less than Netflix's 250 million bid for its "Aragorn drama" pitch), but also absorbed much of the production costs for the entire series - with seasons 2+ expected to cost "considerably less" than season 1
Yeah, we know Season 1 cost 700 million, including the rights (somewhere north of 200 million but less than Netflix's 250 million bid for its "Aragorn drama" pitch), but also absorbed much of the production costs for the entire series - with seasons 2+ expected to cost "considerably less" than season 1
Presumably a lot of up-front cost went on things like building sets for Numenor, Khazad Dum etc which will be re-used throughout, as well as building up stocks of costumes and props.
Grey Templar wrote: If you feel awkward defending the show, it probably shows that its not worth defending.
The point being I'd rather discuss actual issues with the show, none of which these happen to be.
Like it or not, those are actual issues with the show. If you don't want to discuss them, that is fine, but you can't say they're not issues. They're just not issues you want to discuss.
judgedoug wrote: Yeah, we know Season 1 cost 700 million, including the rights (somewhere north of 200 million but less than Netflix's 250 million bid for its "Aragorn drama" pitch), but also absorbed much of the production costs for the entire series - with seasons 2+ expected to cost "considerably less" than season 1
I'd say a good bulk of the budget went into the dialogue:
"Give me the meat, and give it to me raw."
-Durin to Elrond
judgedoug wrote: Yeah, we know Season 1 cost 700 million, including the rights (somewhere north of 200 million but less than Netflix's 250 million bid for its "Aragorn drama" pitch), but also absorbed much of the production costs for the entire series - with seasons 2+ expected to cost "considerably less" than season 1
I'd say a good bulk of the budget went into the dialogue:
"Give me the meat, and give it to me raw."
-Durin to Elrond
Absolutely Shakespearean. A Triumph.
What’s wrong with that quote? Meat of the argument is a Britishism. Give it to me raw implies “no mucking around with fancy words”.
Seems Waaaaaaaaaaay to early for the Balrog though? Like as cool as it would be we shouldn’t see it in this. Or why would Gimli be surprised by the ruins a thousand years from now?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’ve honestly no idea. Wild guess, and with no background knowledge?
Dwarfs as they stand are capable of driving it off, deeper into the Mountain. They then extract the Mithril.
Post War with Sauron, with Mithril supplies and the Dwarfs themselves much depleted, they delve again, wake it up, and it all goes horribly wrong.
I seem to remember/I read somewhere/my head canon suggests that The Balrog is in hiding after the War of Wrath. With no Morgoth, and Sauron (temporarily) repentant (and/or playing the long game) its power is diminished and is keeping a low profile. It is, supposedly, the last of the Balrogs. When Sauron becomes The Necromancer and then actually declares "I'm baaa-aaack!" it's power increases and it takes control of the multiplying goblins to take over the city.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: What’s wrong with that quote? Meat of the argument is a Britishism. Give it to me raw implies “no mucking around with fancy words”.
To translate? Just Bloody Tell Me Straight.
We understand what it means. We also recognize it's not something Elrond would ever say.
The Dwarfs are presented as Scots, yes? As someone born and brought up in Scotland, it’s absolutely something my grandparents might’ve said - and presumably, their forebears to.
It’s not an anachronistic term in the least. Cut to the chase would be, as that’s a term derived from modern cinema. The Orc Captain (Gothmog?) ordering his archers to “fire” in Return of the King absolutely was. As I’m sure you know, you loose, perhaps shoot a bow. But you only fire a gun.
If you’re not enjoying it, that sucks as your clearly passionate about LOTR. But I’m sure there’s no need for you to simply invent objections.
This. Also it was quite in character for Durin as he is portrayed in the show.
Spoiler:
That being said, the latest episode was rough. As feared, none of the cast died in the aftermath of the eruption, only Miriel suffered any sort of consequence as a result, and even that was due to an unfortunate happenstance instead of the scorching cloud of smoke and debris.
They pulled another predictable "is Bronwyn dead?" moment and Isildur will of course be saved by his horse. Stakes remain unfortunately low and plausibility continues to suffer. We also learn that inconvenient-to-the-plot-husband Celeborn was sacrificed to bolster Galadriel's mischaracterization. At this point I wish they'd just stuck to original characters, which happen to be the more interesting parts of this series anyway. Looking forward to seeing what Adar and the evil priestesses are up to. Halbrand will likely fill the role of Anatar after being delivered to and healed by the elves. Durins Bane has awakened, so there might be some spectacular Khazad Dum battle scenes right around the corner.
And then there was that last shot of the episode and I actually laughed out loud for how bad it was. If you haven't seen it, please do, it's baffling. I know it was probably done for all those watchers not familiar with the franchise, but they shoud've just had Adar spell it out instead of this.
Grey Templar wrote: If you feel awkward defending the show, it probably shows that its not worth defending.
The point being I'd rather discuss actual issues with the show, none of which these happen to be.
Like it or not, those are actual issues with the show. If you don't want to discuss them, that is fine, but you can't say they're not issues. They're just not issues you want to discuss.
We're just going to go in circles here. The reason for, the nature of, the political limitations of, and the size of the expedition, is already explained in-universe, and at least makes sense, much more so than other opinions I've seen to the contrary, including your desired story change, which makes no sense. As it stands we have zero idea the volume or mass of what is stored above, at, or below, waterline, of these Numenorean transport vessels, nor the number of decks - 2, 3? and dimensions let alone the actual draft of the ship. The only things I know are that they are based on Chinese Junks, which all varied considerably in size and transport capacity, and they kinda look like very large caravels, which again, ranged drastically in size and transport capacity. If we have some numbers then we could look at any number of historical ships and make a guess to see what it would be close to. For me that matter is shelved until the inevitable behind-the-scenes books which either confirm or deny the hauling capacity of a ship designed by a professional paid for their work, versus some random opinion.
Which isn't really relevant. There's a specific, consistent manner in which Tolkien's characters express themselves in his writing and I think neither the line, nor its delivery fit that mould.
Which isn't really relevant. There's a specific, consistent manner in which Tolkien's characters express themselves in his writing and I think neither the line, nor its delivery fit that mould.
Manchu had a great point - the dialogue doesn't feel like Tolkien because it isn't. Tolkien dialogue is musical in nature and uses very specific pre-1066 verbiage. Jackson's movies get some of this right (which became memes!), while also changing a lot for dramatic reasons (these dialogue choices were excoriated by Tolkien fans when the films came out). Rings of Power has no dialogue that is based on anything Tolkien wrote so it all just... sounds incorrect.
judgedoug wrote: Manchu had a great point - the dialogue doesn't feel like Tolkien because it isn't. Tolkien dialogue is musical in nature and uses very specific pre-1066 verbiage. Jackson's movies get some of this right (which became memes!), while also changing a lot for dramatic reasons (these dialogue choices were excoriated by Tolkien fans when the films came out). Rings of Power has no dialogue that is based on anything Tolkien wrote so it all just... sounds incorrect.
While I mourn the loss of Tolkien's melodics, I can somewhat understand (if not exactly like) the simplification of his prose for the purpose of TV or film. Not many screenwriters have the background for that kind of writing.
Still, there are things that I find impossible to swallow. I'm not even talking about that specific Durin line, since that one at least seems consistent with showDurin, but the elvish characters tend to turn from overtly modern to overtly Hollywood archaic on a dime in the couple episodes I've seen.
Galadriel tells Theo that Celeborn went off to war, and never came back. She assumes he is dead, and that goes some way to explaining her hardened heart and obsession with Sauron. I fully expect that at some time over the next four years we will find out he was captured, not killed.
judgedoug wrote: Manchu had a great point - the dialogue doesn't feel like Tolkien because it isn't. Tolkien dialogue is musical in nature and uses very specific pre-1066 verbiage. Jackson's movies get some of this right (which became memes!), while also changing a lot for dramatic reasons (these dialogue choices were excoriated by Tolkien fans when the films came out). Rings of Power has no dialogue that is based on anything Tolkien wrote so it all just... sounds incorrect.
While I mourn the loss of Tolkien's melodics, I can somewhat understand (if not exactly like) the simplification of his prose for the purpose of TV or film. Not many screenwriters have the background for that kind of writing.
Still, there are things that I find impossible to swallow. I'm not even talking about that specific Durin line, since that one at least seems consistent with showDurin, but the elvish characters tend to turn from overtly modern to overtly Hollywood archaic on a dime in the couple episodes I've seen.
While I'm enjoying the series, I agree. Galadriel is acting elvish, as if every sentence is a prophecy. "Evil does not sleep.It waits!", whereas the other elves seem to be English tory party members, just strolled in from Midsomer Murders
Grey Templar wrote: If you feel awkward defending the show, it probably shows that its not worth defending.
The point being I'd rather discuss actual issues with the show, none of which these happen to be.
Like it or not, those are actual issues with the show. If you don't want to discuss them, that is fine, but you can't say they're not issues. They're just not issues you want to discuss.
We're just going to go in circles here. The reason for, the nature of, the political limitations of, and the size of the expedition, is already explained in-universe, and at least makes sense, much more so than other opinions I've seen to the contrary, including your desired story change, which makes no sense. As it stands we have zero idea the volume or mass of what is stored above, at, or below, waterline, of these Numenorean transport vessels, nor the number of decks - 2, 3? and dimensions let alone the actual draft of the ship. The only things I know are that they are based on Chinese Junks, which all varied considerably in size and transport capacity, and they kinda look like very large caravels, which again, ranged drastically in size and transport capacity. If we have some numbers then we could look at any number of historical ships and make a guess to see what it would be close to. For me that matter is shelved until the inevitable behind-the-scenes books which either confirm or deny the hauling capacity of a ship designed by a professional paid for their work, versus some random opinion.
Just because in-universe reasons exist doesn't mean they are good reasons. The in-universe reason is trash and goes against all logical extrapolation regarding high medieval norms or norms we would expect given what is known about the setting. Numenor is Rome at the height of its glory and power on absolute Steroids, they would not be piddling around with such tiny numbers.
With the ships, we can see roughly how large the ships are by the people milling on the deck, and they definitely do NOT extend more than 1 full deck below the waterline because we can see the prow popping out of the water.
Even with the most generous of leeway, you can't fit more then 60 people on such a vessel if it barely has 30 people on its top deck. And that would be cramped as heck with all the cargo they'd need to bring, and does not give any room for horses. Best case, you could get maybe 20 horses per ship and you'd be displacing half the people because you need space for the horse plus its fodder and tack.
Again, we can SEE that the ships decks look cramped with 30ish people on it and that they are not extremely deep drafted. No expert is going to be able to debunk these visuals.
100 people plus horses and cargo would almost certainly capsize ships of this size. You can barely see 20 people on the deck of the left ship and its already looking pretty full, and remember that the lower holds of ships like this are going to be smaller than the upper deck in terms of surface area. Especially since we see in the sabotage scene that the lower deck has more than 6 ft of headroom since nobody is stooping and horses can fit down there. That puts the bottom of that lower deck well below the waterline with no room below it for more than a small bilge space.
Again, not an issue with the ships themselves. Its an issue with the number used. If they wanted only 3 ships, they would have needed to have bigger ships.
Honestly, ignoring this plain visual evidence is just willful ignorance.
Grey Templar wrote: If you feel awkward defending the show, it probably shows that its not worth defending.
The point being I'd rather discuss actual issues with the show, none of which these happen to be.
Like it or not, those are actual issues with the show. If you don't want to discuss them, that is fine, but you can't say they're not issues. They're just not issues you want to discuss.
We're just going to go in circles here. The reason for, the nature of, the political limitations of, and the size of the expedition, is already explained in-universe, and at least makes sense, much more so than other opinions I've seen to the contrary, including your desired story change, which makes no sense. As it stands we have zero idea the volume or mass of what is stored above, at, or below, waterline, of these Numenorean transport vessels, nor the number of decks - 2, 3? and dimensions let alone the actual draft of the ship. The only things I know are that they are based on Chinese Junks, which all varied considerably in size and transport capacity, and they kinda look like very large caravels, which again, ranged drastically in size and transport capacity. If we have some numbers then we could look at any number of historical ships and make a guess to see what it would be close to. For me that matter is shelved until the inevitable behind-the-scenes books which either confirm or deny the hauling capacity of a ship designed by a professional paid for their work, versus some random opinion.
Just because in-universe reasons exist doesn't mean they are good reasons. The in-universe reason is trash and goes against all logical extrapolation regarding high medieval norms or norms we would expect given what is known about the setting. Numenor is Rome at the height of its glory and power on absolute Steroids, they would not be piddling around with such tiny numbers.
With the ships, we can see roughly how large the ships are by the people milling on the deck, and they definitely do NOT extend more than 1 full deck below the waterline because we can see the prow popping out of the water.
Even with the most generous of leeway, you can't fit more then 60 people on such a vessel if it barely has 30 people on its top deck. And that would be cramped as heck with all the cargo they'd need to bring, and does not give any room for horses. Best case, you could get maybe 20 horses per ship and you'd be displacing half the people because you need space for the horse plus its fodder and tack.
Again, we can SEE that the ships decks look cramped with 30ish people on it and that they are not extremely deep drafted. No expert is going to be able to debunk these visuals.
100 people plus horses and cargo would almost certainly capsize ships of this size. You can barely see 20 people on the deck of the left ship and its already looking pretty full, and remember that the lower holds of ships like this are going to be smaller than the upper deck in terms of surface area. Especially since we see in the sabotage scene that the lower deck has more than 6 ft of headroom since nobody is stooping and horses can fit down there. That puts the bottom of that lower deck well below the waterline with no room below it for more than a small bilge space.
Again, not an issue with the ships themselves. Its an issue with the number used. If they wanted only 3 ships, they would have needed to have bigger ships.
Honestly, ignoring this plain visual evidence is just willful ignorance.
I think even willful ignorance is a bit generous given that most people who are in favour of the bad set up regarding the ships only response seems to be "Well, I'm not bothered by it, so you shouldn't be either!". Riveting stuff.
Lord Damocles wrote: Isn't Numenor supposed to have colonies in Middle Earth anyway? Why do they even need to send an army rather than raise a force locally?
They addressed that in this episode. Apparently Pelargir is an abandoned settlement in this show.
The Dwarfs are presented as Scots, yes? As someone born and brought up in Scotland, it’s absolutely something my grandparents might’ve said - and presumably, their forebears to.
It’s not an anachronistic term in the least. Cut to the chase would be, as that’s a term derived from modern cinema. The Orc Captain (Gothmog?) ordering his archers to “fire” in Return of the King absolutely was. As I’m sure you know, you loose, perhaps shoot a bow. But you only fire a gun.
If you’re not enjoying it, that sucks as your clearly passionate about LOTR. But I’m sure there’s no need for you to simply invent objections.
I have to agree with Mad Doc Grotsnik on this one.
Lord Damocles wrote: Isn't Numenor supposed to have colonies in Middle Earth anyway? Why do they even need to send an army rather than raise a force locally?
...also, why did they build that absurd bridge across their harbour which limits the size of their ships so much..?
Numenor is supposed to be a vast martime Empire - more like Atlantis than anything else IIRC.
The scale that they are depiciting is...well it would be like the Pelanor fields battle being fought by 100 orcs and 30 humans.....
On the other hand....
I enjoyed the visuals after Mount Doom blew, I still really like Galadriel and Dwarves/Elrond is stand out - apart from the Mithril re-engergising the Elves story - thats....awful
Why did you even make a Middle Earth show if you're going to abandon so much of the written background?
It irks me so much that HBO lost the rights to make LOTR shows to Amazon, its such a farce.
HBO would have just canceled it after they finished filming for the tax write off…
I get the joke/reference, but that was Warner Bros. Discovery’s new leaderhips call. Hisorically HBO puts out premium quality, overwhelmingly.
Thoughts on latest episode, going to put in spoilers for the sake of folks who enjoy this show:
Spoiler:
In no particular order, with heavy sarcasm :
Forgot to skip the opening credits sequence and fell asleep again. I swore I wouldn’t do that after the last episode (and the previous episodes) but here I am. Meanwhile That Other Fantasy Show’s opening sequence feels like a roller coaster, despite having heard the theme for a decade almost.
There was a sound of a baby crying, a woman wailing and a man pleading for help while people wander aimlessly. But Galadriel stood there looking for Halbrand and Ellendil, screw the NPCs!
Oh no, Bronwyns dead! Some emotional growth (good or bad) for Theo to develop into a character we’d care about or hate through the next seasons. Nope! Bronwyn, fresh from her brief but dramatic near death “Tis but a flesh wound” arrow shot survived. Growth denied! Emotional impact negated! I should’ve known when there was no body found. They got me good!
The only notable fatality, amongst a village of dead NPCs is the least liked (by the shows own admission in previous episodes) of Isildurs friends. That was a powerful moment, up there with Wade’s shocking death in Obi-wan Kenobi Part IV. Isildur died too, but I’m so numb from his friends death reveal that it hasn’t registered yet. Almost feels like it isn’t real. Poor Ellendil!
Speaking of the village, the village population seems to have the same regenerative powers as the Dothraki army from the last season of GoT. Its as big/small as it needs to be at whatever part of the story its in.
The trope sound of a sword making noise as its unsheathed has grown so powerful that it can alert a group of Orcs walking through a forest ten feet away at night with torches burning in their faces.
Dwarves are still cool. No complaints there. I’m with the senior Durin, if the Elves time is up, its unnatural to meddle. Its not like the elves don’t have a far away land damn near exclusively to them that they can migrate to and never die.
The villians remain the most compelling parts of this series for me, if only because of their mystique. But I felt the same about Snoke and the Knights of Ren…
I’m glad the Southlands text was explicitly erased and replaced with Mordor. I’d have not known what the new region, covered in darkness, populated with Orcs and evil men with a massive fiery volcano would’ve been called. Had I did know, I might’ve felt my intelligence insulted. Had Adar said it in his creepy voice as he gazes longingly at the volcano spouting dark clouds, I’d have been ok with it probably, but the text reveal was silly.
Memberries Balrog! Seems too early, and the dwarves have a loooong way to go before contact.
Why did you even make a Middle Earth show if you're going to abandon so much of the written background?
It irks me so much that HBO lost the rights to make LOTR shows to Amazon, its such a farce.
HBO would have just canceled it after they finished filming for the tax write off…
I get the joke/reference, but that was Warner Bros. Discovery’s new leaderhips call. Hisorically HBO puts out premium quality, overwhelmingly.
Thoughts on latest episode, going to put in spoilers for the sake of folks who enjoy this show:
Spoiler:
In no particular order, with heavy sarcasm :
Forgot to skip the opening credits sequence and fell asleep again. I swore I wouldn’t do that after the last episode (and the previous episodes) but here I am. Meanwhile That Other Fantasy Show’s opening sequence feels like a roller coaster, despite having heard the theme for a decade almost.
There was a sound of a baby crying, a woman wailing and a man pleading for help while people wander aimlessly. But Galadriel stood there looking for Halbrand and Ellendil, screw the NPCs!
Oh no, Bronwyns dead! Some emotional growth (good or bad) for Theo to develop into a character we’d care about or hate through the next seasons. Nope! Bronwyn, fresh from her brief but dramatic near death “Tis but a flesh wound” arrow shot survived. Growth denied! Emotional impact negated! I should’ve known when there was no body found. They got me good!
The only notable fatality, amongst a village of dead NPCs is the least liked (by the shows own admission in previous episodes) of Isildurs friends. That was a powerful moment, up there with Wade’s shocking death in Obi-wan Kenobi Part IV. Isildur died too, but I’m so numb from his friends death reveal that it hasn’t registered yet. Almost feels like it isn’t real. Poor Ellendil!
Speaking of the village, the village population seems to have the same regenerative powers as the Dothraki army from the last season of GoT. Its as big/small as it needs to be at whatever part of the story its in.
The trope sound of a sword making noise as its unsheathed has grown so powerful that it can alert a group of Orcs walking through a forest ten feet away at night with torches burning in their faces.
Dwarves are still cool. No complaints there. I’m with the senior Durin, if the Elves time is up, its unnatural to meddle. Its not like the elves don’t have a far away land damn near exclusively to them that they can migrate to and never die.
The villians remain the most compelling parts of this series for me, if only because of their mystique. But I felt the same about Snoke and the Knights of Ren…
I’m glad the Southlands text was explicitly erased and replaced with Mordor. I’d have not known what the new region, covered in darkness, populated with Orcs and evil men with a massive fiery volcano would’ve been called. Had I did know, I might’ve felt my intelligence insulted. Had Adar said it in his creepy voice as he gazes longingly at the volcano spouting dark clouds, I’d have been ok with it probably, but the text reveal was silly.
Memberries Balrog! Seems too early, and the dwarves have a loooong way to go before contact.
Why did you even make a Middle Earth show if you're going to abandon so much of the written background?
It irks me so much that HBO lost the rights to make LOTR shows to Amazon, its such a farce.
HBO would have just canceled it after they finished filming for the tax write off…
I get the joke/reference, but that was Warner Bros. Discovery’s new leaderhips call. Hisorically HBO puts out premium quality, overwhelmingly.
Thoughts on latest episode, going to put in spoilers for the sake of folks who enjoy this show:
Spoiler:
In no particular order, with heavy sarcasm :
Forgot to skip the opening credits sequence and fell asleep again. I swore I wouldn’t do that after the last episode (and the previous episodes) but here I am. Meanwhile That Other Fantasy Show’s opening sequence feels like a roller coaster, despite having heard the theme for a decade almost.
There was a sound of a baby crying, a woman wailing and a man pleading for help while people wander aimlessly. But Galadriel stood there looking for Halbrand and Ellendil, screw the NPCs!
Oh no, Bronwyns dead! Some emotional growth (good or bad) for Theo to develop into a character we’d care about or hate through the next seasons. Nope! Bronwyn, fresh from her brief but dramatic near death “Tis but a flesh wound” arrow shot survived. Growth denied! Emotional impact negated! I should’ve known when there was no body found. They got me good!
The only notable fatality, amongst a village of dead NPCs is the least liked (by the shows own admission in previous episodes) of Isildurs friends. That was a powerful moment, up there with Wade’s shocking death in Obi-wan Kenobi Part IV. Isildur died too, but I’m so numb from his friends death reveal that it hasn’t registered yet. Almost feels like it isn’t real. Poor Ellendil!
Speaking of the village, the village population seems to have the same regenerative powers as the Dothraki army from the last season of GoT. Its as big/small as it needs to be at whatever part of the story its in.
The trope sound of a sword making noise as its unsheathed has grown so powerful that it can alert a group of Orcs walking through a forest ten feet away at night with torches burning in their faces.
Dwarves are still cool. No complaints there. I’m with the senior Durin, if the Elves time is up, its unnatural to meddle. Its not like the elves don’t have a far away land damn near exclusively to them that they can migrate to and never die.
The villians remain the most compelling parts of this series for me, if only because of their mystique. But I felt the same about Snoke and the Knights of Ren…
I’m glad the Southlands text was explicitly erased and replaced with Mordor. I’d have not known what the new region, covered in darkness, populated with Orcs and evil men with a massive fiery volcano would’ve been called. Had I did know, I might’ve felt my intelligence insulted. Had Adar said it in his creepy voice as he gazes longingly at the volcano spouting dark clouds, I’d have been ok with it probably, but the text reveal was silly.
Memberries Balrog! Seems too early, and the dwarves have a loooong way to go before contact.
I agree with your comments in the spoiler section.
nels1031 wrote: I get the joke/reference, but that was Warner Bros. Discovery’s new leaderhips call. Hisorically HBO puts out premium quality, overwhelmingly.
Might be a mix of references, but HBO Max has also been yanking a ton of stuff off their streaming service recently. Just wholesale wiping entire shows from existence.
Please note our source of this 'mithril ' myth is Thranduil- the king who has lied about honoring Galadriel, and instead sent her to Valinor very much against her will.
Mostly because she's causing too much fuss trying to fight Sauron, who he is certain is dead.
He then lied to Elrond, to use him as a spy, and encouraged him to betray his friendship with the dwarves. Now this was also to confirm something- so he already knew of the rumors of mithril before sending him.
He then proves unknowledgable about dwarf lore, and rather than verifying it, immediately has his table gifted to Durin.
Has he at any point in the series been right, or even told the truth? Why on middle earth are we willing to trust him now? I believe he wants mithril, yes, but I think he spun a cool story to further manipulate Elrond. Or has been told a story to manipulate him in turn- if we've got Sauron poisoning the trees, and spinning tales about how mithril will solve it to get the ore he needs to forge rings- ingenious. How do people who live long enough to personally witness the distant past have unnamed, unknown heroes that did such signifcant deeds?
TLDR, Thranduil is full of it, and wants mithril.
Spoiler:
but the scene in the subsequent episode where Durin, in a fit of grief-rage throws the chunk of mithril across the table. It settles mere inches from that fancy elf tree leaf, and the ichor/death rotting the leaf is reversed.
So, IMHO, he does "just" want the mithril, but behind the myths there is some genuine truth to the preservation factor.
I've more or less moved on from the flu, but I've still got a lot of phlem and am coughing a lot. Appropriate then that this episode is called 'The Eye' and I should notice just before watching it that I popped a blood vessel in one of mine and I look like some kind of edgy anime villain.
After the events of last episode has effectively merged two storylines (sort of, see below) we have three major plot arcs this episode and for once it feels fairly comprehensive to the entire story of the show.
Galadriel et all:
Spoiler:
-After taking over last episode and stuffing it with action sequences, confessions of love, chase scenes, revelations, ominous dialogue and a twist ending, we were due for a cool-down episode and that's largely what's delivered here.
-Galadriel awakens to see the devastation wrought on the Southlands by the servants of the Enemy. The sky is choked with ash, the wails of the dying are carried on the wind, everything is burning.
-Then she kind of... wanders off?
-I can't overstress how weird it is for her to do this. At first I thought she might be in shock, but upon re-watching she's calling out for Elendil and the others, so what's the deal here? I feel like they were trying to convey that she way very far away from the Numenoreans when Mt. Doom blew its top, but that's not the impression I got last episode.
-While wandering in this way, she finds Theo, and takes him with her. At this point I thought she might be looking for the orcs (because that's what they end up finding), or maybe Adar, but they don't really give her a reason to think they've escaped (she doesn't look around in surprise at their absense, she doesn't go the barn where Adar was supposed to be and find him missing, etc)
-They do have some decent dialogue with each other though. Getting to the subject of how many orcs she's killed was a little awkward, but after he says it's good that she's killed so many, her line about it being dangerous to call evil deeds good struck me as one of the highlights of the show. I expect to hear it in a trailer at some point.
-She also confirms the existence of Celeborn - he's also gone to war and she hasn't seen him since. Between that and the line mentioned previously I think we're finally seeing the guideposts for Galadriel's arc going forward in the show: with Celeborn returning and trying to help her let go of revenge in lieu of guiding and helping others.
-A barn fell on Isildur! But of course we all remember from the previous episodes that tunnels have been dug all through the town and he is almost assuredly being swept downstream through a maze of underground rapids. And again he will almost assuredly wash up on shore and be rescued by Berek in a direct parallel to the scene in Two Towers where Aragorn falls off a cliff to pad out the runtime.
-Elendil and the Queen meanwhile rally the survivors and drive them back to their basecamp (again confirming there must have been a couple of days time between their arrival in middle earth and their arrival in the battle scene)
-The Queen reveals she was hit in the face with burning embers during the incident with Isildur in the barn, and is now blind - they chose to depict this injury using the subtle makeup technique known as absolutely nothing at all, as she looks awkwardly past the camera and tells the audience that she is now blind.*
-Back at camp, Elendil gradually has to accept that Isildur is dead (so that he can show up later dripping with water in a future episode) and sets Berek free so he can play his part in that sequence too. He then looks directly at the camera and tells the audience he regrets saving Galadriel.*
-Speaking of Galadriel - she and Theo get back to camp after a near miss with some orcs during the night. I find this interesting because some of the previous episodes have felt the need to shoehorn fight scenes into the narrative, and it looks like they might have had one here that they ultimately cut. Galadriel gave Theo her sword to defend himself if he needed to, and he carries it now like it very well saved his life - but we didn't actually see him use it.
-Halbrand is wounded - and leaves with Galadriel to go to Lindon and get Elvish medicine - this all seems really straightforward, but they mention explicitly that they found him on the road. I wonder if there's some special significance here?
-The episode's capstone is a shot where Adar and the orcs revel in their victory. He proclaims it's not the Southlands anymore and we get a long panning shot where the words 'Southlands' appear on screen, are burned out, and replaced by 'Mordor'*
*These scenes all feel like hasty and sloppy edits. Like some executive is listening to the people saying they're bored and keep checking their phones and is contemptuous enough of their viewers that they actually believe them. I hope I'm reading too much into this, because if the suits decide they need to go dumber everything I like about the show is going down the drain fast.
Meteor Man Superstar:
Spoiler:
-The Harfoots and company make it to the Grove without further harassment from CGI wolf monsters
-Nori is still clearly very shaken up after the incident with the ice, but it didn't lead to some silly 'go away I don't want you anymore' shaggy dog story scene and we're better off for it
-We see the eruption of Mt. Doom has caused some damage even as far out as they are. Nori doesn't want to ask the Stranger to fix it, but the other hobbits insist, and when she won't, Sadock asks him - and I like that we're seeing this reversal in their behaviour, as the entire village is coming to accept him, if not as one of them, then at least as a good thing, or even a friend.
-And once again we see him work some magic that seems to inexplicably lead to someone almost getting hurt. Only almost though. And after he leaves the damage is repaired so maybe it isn't that the magic is exacting a blood price, but he's exercising some evil that lashes out at the poor innocent harfoots as it leaves?
-Sadock, once again, proves himself to a decent upstanding fellow, gives the Stranger a scrap of paper with the star pattern he's looking for (did he restore it from the burned scrap from memory? was it a spare?) and directs him to travel west to the farside of Greenwood the Great (what would later be known as Mirkwood) and to seem the bigfolk settlements between it and the Misty Mountains.
-Nori also musters up the courage to give him an apple as he leaves, and though later she insists to her mom she was wrong all along and is 'just a harfoot' she proved there she's got a good, brave heart and will be a worthy protagonist for further seasons.
-The three witches show up a couple of days later. Per what others have said previously in thread, they're Easterlings from Rhun, which would put them as historical allies of Morgoth and later, Sauron. That doesn't really answer what's the deal with Meteor Man, or what they want to do to him, but there it is.
-Nori doesn't know anything about them at all, but sees they've deduced he's traveling west and straight up lies to them and says he was going south - another gut feeling?
-After they burn the harfoot camp and leave, Nori commits to chasing after the Stranger to warn him that he's being followed. I don't know what she intends to do if the witches find him, or her first?
-I am once again taken aback by how invested I am in the hobbit stuff. I really hope we get some kind of answer for Meteor Man, I'm ready for him to be Gandalf at the undocumented start of his journey, I'm ready for him to Sauron somehow ignorant of his destiny, please give me the answer before the end of the first season.
Durin v. Durin
Spoiler:
-The elven trade offer is a pretty sweet deal, it would basically represent a complete and comprehensive tithe of elven resources in exchange for the rare metal. The wood was probably most dearly offered in particular.
-King Durin's reluctance to treat with them at all seems to be at odds to his position when the mithril was first hinted at. I think we're meant to see it as illogical as Prince Durin does - but I think the change in position has to do with all the cave-ins that have been caused trying to mine it over the course of the show.
-Elrond employs both Empathy and Sympathy in dealing with the Dwarves in one speech, at once acknowledging that he can see the same flaws in the elves that the dwarves see (because he is, himself, apart from them) and demonstrating his own humility by kneeling before King Durin and pleading with him for aid. This doesn't really change the positions of either of the Durins, but it definitely seems to catch the attention of the dwarven nobles attending with them. I suspect this may come into play later.
-I like the conflict between King Durin and Prince Durin. The former is arguing, perhaps correctly, that they live in a setting with present gods who cause things to happen for a reason, and the latter is arguing, also perhaps correctly, that such considerations cannot come before one's love for one's fellow man (so to speak).
-This comes again in the scene with him and Disa. Durin seems ready to accept the tragedy of what is happening, but upon witnessing the leaf's blight being driven away by its proximity to the ore (as much as I dislike that plot point as I've outlined elsewhere) he can't bear to stand by and let it all go wrong. Durin IV is aggressively written against the dwarven stereotype and Owain Arther is knocking it out of the park.
-And that leads to a scene where they're digging in secret to find a safe route to a sizeable vein and they're found out (I really don't see why they were surprised by that, given the size of the earthquakes) and Durin III and IV get another one on one scene where the King tells him how he was weak as a child but he had a vision of him having a glorious future and it's both sweet and bitter - even though King Durin is that same dwarven stereotype played straight, it's still compelling to watch.
-Prince Durin is stirpped of his inheritence, Disa starts talking about overthrowing the king! For any of its shortcomings I appreciate that RoP has given us more good, not stupid dwarf content than all the hobbit movies combined.
-And of course, we're given a quick tease shot of a Balrog for the trailer. No, this doesn't mean Moria's about to fall, we're still well too early for that.
And just some quick observations:
Spoiler:
-Same Balrog as from Fellowship of the Ring, but not actually the same design.
--The horns aren't as rounded, consist of segments that turn at sharper angles at irregular points, overall profile is more angular
--Bigger teeth, fangs and tusks
--Bigger eyes
--Much like Sauron in the prologue, John Howe is clearly iterating upon the design from the movie rather than going for a drastic redesign, I wonder if people would have been confused if it had been one of his book balrog designs: a big black minotaur in black plate armour or something?
-So where was 'The Eye' in all this?
--All the other episodes have a title that pertains to something that happens in the episode. In the episode Adar everybody is talking non stop about Adar even if he doesn't appear in focus until the next episode, etc.
--But here, there are the Easterlings? One has a staff that kind of has an eye motif? Is that the Eye?
--Is it Disa? With her spooky glowy orange eyes?
--Is it the Queen's eyes? Which look fine despite her now being blind?
Captain Joystick wrote: I've more or less moved on from the flu, but I've still got a lot of phlem and am coughing a lot. Appropriate then that this episode is called 'The Eye' and I should notice just before watching it that I popped a blood vessel in one of mine and I look like some kind of edgy anime villain.
After the events of last episode has effectively merged two storylines (sort of, see below) we have three major plot arcs this episode and for once it feels fairly comprehensive to the entire story of the show.
Galadriel et all:
Spoiler:
-After taking over last episode and stuffing it with action sequences, confessions of love, chase scenes, revelations, ominous dialogue and a twist ending, we were due for a cool-down episode and that's largely what's delivered here.
-Galadriel awakens to see the devastation wrought on the Southlands by the servants of the Enemy. The sky is choked with ash, the wails of the dying are carried on the wind, everything is burning.
-Then she kind of... wanders off?
-I can't overstress how weird it is for her to do this. At first I thought she might be in shock, but upon re-watching she's calling out for Elendil and the others, so what's the deal here? I feel like they were trying to convey that she way very far away from the Numenoreans when Mt. Doom blew its top, but that's not the impression I got last episode.
-While wandering in this way, she finds Theo, and takes him with her. At this point I thought she might be looking for the orcs (because that's what they end up finding), or maybe Adar, but they don't really give her a reason to think they've escaped (she doesn't look around in surprise at their absense, she doesn't go the barn where Adar was supposed to be and find him missing, etc)
-They do have some decent dialogue with each other though. Getting to the subject of how many orcs she's killed was a little awkward, but after he says it's good that she's killed so many, her line about it being dangerous to call evil deeds good struck me as one of the highlights of the show. I expect to hear it in a trailer at some point.
-She also confirms the existence of Celeborn - he's also gone to war and she hasn't seen him since. Between that and the line mentioned previously I think we're finally seeing the guideposts for Galadriel's arc going forward in the show: with Celeborn returning and trying to help her let go of revenge in lieu of guiding and helping others.
-A barn fell on Isildur! But of course we all remember from the previous episodes that tunnels have been dug all through the town and he is almost assuredly being swept downstream through a maze of underground rapids. And again he will almost assuredly wash up on shore and be rescued by Berek in a direct parallel to the scene in Two Towers where Aragorn falls off a cliff to pad out the runtime.
-Elendil and the Queen meanwhile rally the survivors and drive them back to their basecamp (again confirming there must have been a couple of days time between their arrival in middle earth and their arrival in the battle scene)
-The Queen reveals she was hit in the face with burning embers during the incident with Isildur in the barn, and is now blind - they chose to depict this injury using the subtle makeup technique known as absolutely nothing at all, as she looks awkwardly past the camera and tells the audience that she is now blind.*
-Back at camp, Elendil gradually has to accept that Isildur is dead (so that he can show up later dripping with water in a future episode) and sets Berek free so he can play his part in that sequence too. He then looks directly at the camera and tells the audience he regrets saving Galadriel.*
-Speaking of Galadriel - she and Theo get back to camp after a near miss with some orcs during the night. I find this interesting because some of the previous episodes have felt the need to shoehorn fight scenes into the narrative, and it looks like they might have had one here that they ultimately cut. Galadriel gave Theo her sword to defend himself if he needed to, and he carries it now like it very well saved his life - but we didn't actually see him use it.
-Halbrand is wounded - and leaves with Galadriel to go to Lindon and get Elvish medicine - this all seems really straightforward, but they mention explicitly that they found him on the road. I wonder if there's some special significance here?
-The episode's capstone is a shot where Adar and the orcs revel in their victory. He proclaims it's not the Southlands anymore and we get a long panning shot where the words 'Southlands' appear on screen, are burned out, and replaced by 'Mordor'*
*These scenes all feel like hasty and sloppy edits. Like some executive is listening to the people saying they're bored and keep checking their phones and is contemptuous enough of their viewers that they actually believe them. I hope I'm reading too much into this, because if the suits decide they need to go dumber everything I like about the show is going down the drain fast.
Meteor Man Superstar:
Spoiler:
-The Harfoots and company make it to the Grove without further harassment from CGI wolf monsters
-Nori is still clearly very shaken up after the incident with the ice, but it didn't lead to some silly 'go away I don't want you anymore' shaggy dog story scene and we're better off for it
-We see the eruption of Mt. Doom has caused some damage even as far out as they are. Nori doesn't want to ask the Stranger to fix it, but the other hobbits insist, and when she won't, Sadock asks him - and I like that we're seeing this reversal in their behaviour, as the entire village is coming to accept him, if not as one of them, then at least as a good thing, or even a friend.
-And once again we see him work some magic that seems to inexplicably lead to someone almost getting hurt. Only almost though. And after he leaves the damage is repaired so maybe it isn't that the magic is exacting a blood price, but he's exercising some evil that lashes out at the poor innocent harfoots as it leaves?
-Sadock, once again, proves himself to a decent upstanding fellow, gives the Stranger a scrap of paper with the star pattern he's looking for (did he restore it from the burned scrap from memory? was it a spare?) and directs him to travel west to the farside of Greenwood the Great (what would later be known as Mirkwood) and to seem the bigfolk settlements between it and the Misty Mountains.
-Nori also musters up the courage to give him an apple as he leaves, and though later she insists to her mom she was wrong all along and is 'just a harfoot' she proved there she's got a good, brave heart and will be a worthy protagonist for further seasons.
-The three witches show up a couple of days later. Per what others have said previously in thread, they're Easterlings from Rhun, which would put them as historical allies of Morgoth and later, Sauron. That doesn't really answer what's the deal with Meteor Man, or what they want to do to him, but there it is.
-Nori doesn't know anything about them at all, but sees they've deduced he's traveling west and straight up lies to them and says he was going south - another gut feeling?
-After they burn the harfoot camp and leave, Nori commits to chasing after the Stranger to warn him that he's being followed. I don't know what she intends to do if the witches find him, or her first?
-I am once again taken aback by how invested I am in the hobbit stuff. I really hope we get some kind of answer for Meteor Man, I'm ready for him to be Gandalf at the undocumented start of his journey, I'm ready for him to Sauron somehow ignorant of his destiny, please give me the answer before the end of the first season.
Durin v. Durin
Spoiler:
-The elven trade offer is a pretty sweet deal, it would basically represent a complete and comprehensive tithe of elven resources in exchange for the rare metal. The wood was probably most dearly offered in particular.
-King Durin's reluctance to treat with them at all seems to be at odds to his position when the mithril was first hinted at. I think we're meant to see it as illogical as Prince Durin does - but I think the change in position has to do with all the cave-ins that have been caused trying to mine it over the course of the show.
-Elrond employs both Empathy and Sympathy in dealing with the Dwarves in one speech, at once acknowledging that he can see the same flaws in the elves that the dwarves see (because he is, himself, apart from them) and demonstrating his own humility by kneeling before King Durin and pleading with him for aid. This doesn't really change the positions of either of the Durins, but it definitely seems to catch the attention of the dwarven nobles attending with them. I suspect this may come into play later.
-I like the conflict between King Durin and Prince Durin. The former is arguing, perhaps correctly, that they live in a setting with present gods who cause things to happen for a reason, and the latter is arguing, also perhaps correctly, that such considerations cannot come before one's love for one's fellow man (so to speak).
-This comes again in the scene with him and Disa. Durin seems ready to accept the tragedy of what is happening, but upon witnessing the leaf's blight being driven away by its proximity to the ore (as much as I dislike that plot point as I've outlined elsewhere) he can't bear to stand by and let it all go wrong. Durin IV is aggressively written against the dwarven stereotype and Owain Arther is knocking it out of the park.
-And that leads to a scene where they're digging in secret to find a safe route to a sizeable vein and they're found out (I really don't see why they were surprised by that, given the size of the earthquakes) and Durin III and IV get another one on one scene where the King tells him how he was weak as a child but he had a vision of him having a glorious future and it's both sweet and bitter - even though King Durin is that same dwarven stereotype played straight, it's still compelling to watch.
-Prince Durin is stirpped of his inheritence, Disa starts talking about overthrowing the king! For any of its shortcomings I appreciate that RoP has given us more good, not stupid dwarf content than all the hobbit movies combined.
-And of course, we're given a quick tease shot of a Balrog for the trailer. No, this doesn't mean Moria's about to fall, we're still well too early for that.
And just some quick observations:
Spoiler:
-Same Balrog as from Fellowship of the Ring, but not actually the same design.
--The horns aren't as rounded, consist of segments that turn at sharper angles at irregular points, overall profile is more angular
--Bigger teeth, fangs and tusks
--Bigger eyes
--Much like Sauron in the prologue, John Howe is clearly iterating upon the design from the movie rather than going for a drastic redesign, I wonder if people would have been confused if it had been one of his book balrog designs: a big black minotaur in black plate armour or something?
-So where was 'The Eye' in all this?
--All the other episodes have a title that pertains to something that happens in the episode. In the episode Adar everybody is talking non stop about Adar even if he doesn't appear in focus until the next episode, etc.
--But here, there are the Easterlings? One has a staff that kind of has an eye motif? Is that the Eye?
--Is it Disa? With her spooky glowy orange eyes?
--Is it the Queen's eyes? Which look fine despite her now being blind?
Some great observations thoughtfully spelled out and I agree with you.
I want to love this show but it has been stumbling along more than it should have given the time and resources it has been given.
I was wondering about the mithril’s elf healing properties. Could that be a way for the writers to have the Dwarfs mine it (to help their allies) rather than standard dwarf greed (we must have all the shiny)?
It’s still rather an odd addition - I don’t remember anything about such properties of the metal from my limited reading of Tolkien’s works.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although, given the lack of mining props I saw in the tunnels they were digging, I should have thought they’d be more than happy for some elven lumber!
My main issue with this most recent episode was someone with an apparently grievous abdominal wound cantering off on horseback to see medical aid. Surely that wouldn’t be good for the injury?
Souleater wrote: I was wondering about the mithril’s elf healing properties. Could that be a way for the writers to have the Dwarfs mine it (to help their allies) rather than standard dwarf greed (we must have all the shiny)?
It’s still rather an odd addition - I don’t remember anything about such properties of the metal from my limited reading of Tolkien’s works.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although, given the lack of mining props I saw in the tunnels they were digging, I should have thought they’d be more than happy for some elven lumber!
My main issue with this most recent episode was someone with an apparently grievous abdominal wound cantering off on horseback to see medical aid. Surely that wouldn’t be good for the injury?
Its all a bit silly...and he is the only one to benefit from Elf healing.....not the queen and certainly not his subjects.....
The Mithril is just....yeah....
The Elves are doomed - well unless they sail to the undying lands and live in paradise....cos that is option 2.
With the way that they’ve handled Dwarves and Orcs,I wouldn’t be mad if they shifted gears from the Rings of Power to a Fall of Moria type mini-series.
Baragash wrote: I thought HBO wanted to do the LotR section of Tolkien's work again?
yep, HBO wanted to remake The Lord of the Rings. Netflix (whose offer was higher than Amazon's) wanted to make a Tolkien Cinematic Universe with different series for different Third Age characters. Amazon's was the only offer that included the Tolkien Estate involved in the creation, direction, and production of the show.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot to skip the opening credits sequence and fell asleep again. I swore I wouldn’t do that after the last episode (and the previous episodes) but here I am. Meanwhile That Other Fantasy Show’s opening sequence feels like a roller coaster, despite having heard the theme for a decade almost.
What a strange criticism - for me the opening credits are one of the best parts of the show (and the height of the rollercoaster, as typically the quality usually goes down from here). Howard Shore's wonderful composition of, with matching visuals, the music of the Ainur and the creation of Ea, is just wonderful, along with Melkor's little section. Conversely, after watching House of the Dragon's opening credits a few times, I routinely skip those, as the cleverness of the bloodlines kinda wore off after a bit and the visuals are nowhere near as interesting to watch as the original clockwork Westeros from GoT.
My main issue with this most recent episode was someone with an apparently grievous abdominal wound cantering off on horseback to see medical aid. Surely that wouldn’t be good for the injury?
I get the impression the wound has been caused by a pre-curser to the morgal blades and Halbrand is on his way to Wraithdom unless its treated fast. Galadriel is not letting onto it to not alert him. This type of wound is the only thing to be untreatable by non elvish means we know of. The wound may well be stable, the poison though is creeping in.
My main issue with this most recent episode was someone with an apparently grievous abdominal wound cantering off on horseback to see medical aid. Surely that wouldn’t be good for the injury?
I get the impression the wound has been caused by a pre-curser to the morgal blades and Halbrand is on his way to Wraithdom unless its treated fast. Galadriel is not letting onto it to not alert him. This type of wound is the only thing to be untreatable by non elvish means we know of. The wound may well be stable, the poison though is creeping in.
Lots of things untreatable by quasi-medievil healers - I doubt the Queen is going to see again and most of those wounded in the village are going to die.
I went in to this show with an open mind, with the intent to hopefully enjoy it. It was poorly written, badly paced, and seemed cheap at times despite the extravagant budget. Disappointed, to say the least.
Not much of a student of Tolkien lore, but it seems to have done it a big disservice as well.
This season was built around mystery boxes. With all of them revealed, I have low hopes for season 2 given how clumsy this first season was.
Spoiler:
Why did Galadriel say that Halbrand was wounded by an enemy lance? Wasn’t he wounded during the selectively fatal eruption debris or did I miss something?
Dialogue was gak, per the norm. The “power over flesh” line that raised Galadriels suspicion seemed so forced.
No Dwarves, boo!
No Adar/Orcs, boo!
Having watched so many streamers that were convinced Halbrand was Sauron from day one, I wasn’t surprised. The Stranger/Meteor Man was exactly what he appeared to be, a wizard. Feminem and friends were a red herring. Kind of a waste too, would’ve made more sense if they had been sent by Sauron to kill the wizard, rather then them being wrong about the wizards identity. What even made them think he was Sauron?
Hopefully less Harfoot nonsense in the next season, given that Nori has set off with the wizard
Closing music was terrible. Hope Fiona Apple was paid well for it at least.
Sadly, the finale has confirmed all my worries. There was no red herring to throw the more observant viewers off, no sign that the writers had a clever idea to bring it home. It's all just as plain and predictable as expected and – most disturbingly – it's all wrong.
I'm glad this is over and I can only hope they step up their game for season two, but I'm afraid the damage is done.
I was disappointed that having opted for misdirection at the start, it lasted a whole 30 minutes, would have been better if they had found a way to draw it out over, say, half a season.
I remember reading someone's theory that halbrand was Sauron and would turn bad due to being rejected by Galadriel... sure glad that didn't happen. [/sarcasm]
How/why would those three wraith/followers of Sauron not know that metor man is
Spoiler:
not Sauron, but a sodding Wizard!
That just felt dumb and done purely for the misdirection.
Yet another slow motion scene of Galadriel riding a horse... for some reason this is going to become a thing in this show I guess.
End music was dire, not many music scores makes me want to claw my own ears off... but that one did.
First time a wizards been down to earth, right? I imagine they were honing in on the power level, and hadn’t personally met a Wizard before to realize the difference right away, especially as his power wasn’t turned up initially.
AduroT wrote: First time a wizards been down to earth, right? I imagine they were honing in on the power level, and hadn’t personally met a Wizard before to realize the difference right away, especially as his power wasn’t turned up initially.
True, I could be wrong, but in the setting things that are evil give off a bit of vibe shall we say. Would have thought that seeing they were shown to be creatures of spirit and not Flesh & Blood, they'd have seen him in the spirit place/realm/whatever it is called (gloom?) and said 'nah, mate... this isn't Sauron, it's a sodding powerful thing, but Sauron it ain't!'
Mrs. GG and I are, like several of you, disappointed.
We went in with low expectations at the beginning thanks to Wheel of Time and the show pleasantly surprised us. But as the season went on, despite decent casting, some clever ideas and excellent set design, the poor writing kept dragging the show down.
The season finale seemed to be wrapped around some clever storyboard boxes with little to link those boxes together. The whole show seems focused on images, on specific scenes, without comprehensive storytelling to tie it all together. Several annoying plotholes and ultimately I feel the decision to compress time was a very poor one.
It was not great - I still like alot of the cast, the visuals are good but yeah....
Spoiler:
Why did the three sorcerers call him a wizard - how do they even know what one is? I think Sauron is the ssame type of demi-god though?
Why did the gods chuck Gandalf at Midde Earth in a meteor when ships can come and go from the undying lands or are they going to say he choose to go without permission or something. Very odd
Sauron does not kill Galadriel because...she's cute? Why does he want the Elves to stay?
I was starting to get iritated with a human telling the Elves how to forge magical items before he was reveled as Sauron so that at least was good.
The end song was truly awful - just recite the poem properly!
The gods chucked wizard cos it's funny, duh. "Lmao lets yeet this old dude at the planet instead of using the boats."
As for Sauron not killing Galadriel, he's playing 4d Chess. Why kill your nemesis when you can bring them to your side? It's kind of his deal that he uses people and corrupts to gain pawns or remove obstacles. That's what the Rings were for after all, plus he did it to Numenor and Saruman.
Sone great moments. Loved Notdalf and the Harfoots - now he's talking, the character is great.
Forging the three rings, I enjoyed. The reason for 3 as a bulwark against a despot was good - whoever ends up crafting the 7 and the 9 clearly wants no rivals.
Elendil is great.
Elrond and Durin and Disa and Durin remain the standout.
We're seeing the seeds of Numenor's downfall in its arrogance and fear of death.
The rest, I have to admit, is a bit of a soggy mess. Characterisations: Sauron was... kinda ok as a tempter and a deceiver. Galadriel is still a bit too prissy. The thought that Sauron was attempting to atone, and pushed back to his old ways by Galadriel doesn't really work.
The compressed storyline isn't great. A lot of the dialogue is cringe worthy. The plot and pacing are all over the place
Suffers from the same issue as the Solo movie - trying to squeeze ALL rhe backstory into one series. It isn't needed.
Momotaro wrote: Forging the three rings, I enjoyed. The reason for 3 as a bulwark against a despot was good - whoever ends up crafting the 7 and the 9 clearly wants no rivals.
How is crafting three for the reason given in any way logical? If two of the three disagree with the third, that's not 'balance'. If one can turn evil, why does tripling that chance make more sense? Why not four; or two?
And why did they all come out different colours, when the exact same mixture of mithril, gold, silver, and steel (haha super smith guy didn't have any gold silver he was able to use!) was used to make all of them?
Boats don't sink because they look up *shakes head* Unless they're full of explosive wine!
Momotaro wrote: Forging the three rings, I enjoyed. The reason for 3 as a bulwark against a despot was good - whoever ends up crafting the 7 and the 9 clearly wants no rivals.
How is crafting three for the reason given in any way logical? If two of the three disagree with the third, that's not 'balance'. If one can turn evil, why does tripling that chance make more sense? Why not four; or two?
And why did they all come out different colours, when the exact same mixture of mithril, gold, silver, and steel (haha super smith guy didn't have any gold silver he was able to use!) was used to make all of them?
Boats don't sink because they look up *shakes head* Unless they're full of explosive wine!
Tripods are classically one of the more stable structures.
When they spin the molten metal you can see it separate out into bands. Like a primitive centrifuge. More dense to the outside. Then he dips into the band to get the desired metal. Perfect? Nope. But good enough for the story.
On balance I enjoyed it and am looking forward to season 2. It's not perfect by any means, though.
Spoiler:
I would have liked a bit more of Sauron's genuine attempt at atonement (as hinted in The Silmarillion) lasting most of a season, as he moves from wanting to help, to thinking being a benign dictator is the way to go, before full on evil, rather than getting it over with in a short conversation/mind-meld. Helbrand was always a candidate for Sauron so we can't be too surprised or disappointed that it turned out to be him.
The ring-forging was good, and the mithral-heals-elves line at least has an excuse for its existence - to provide the rings with the essence to help elvenkind. Still seems wrong, though. With this season being about the elven rings (amongst other things) is the Dwarven rings next, then The Nine?)
OK, so it's proto-Gandalf, aka: Olorin - fair enough. I had him down as Sauron, kicked out of Valinor after judgement, and sent by drop-pod to the Harfoots to do penance. Being Gandalf just seemed too.... straightforward.
Also the idea of using a Trimvirate to balance out a political structure is one thats been used plenty of times before, in history, sometimes with better results then others but I think it's pretty clear thats just an excuse Galadrial is in a bit of a position here, she knows the rings are ESSENTIAL, but at the same time, she knows they've been dancing to Sauron's tune, so she has to change the plan agreed on, maybe just eneugh to ensure whatever he's plotting doesn't come to pass. changing the number of rings is really the most obvious answer. Sauron, last he was present knew they where making 2 rings, by adding a third into the mix, she can add an element of uncertinty.
I agree with you both, I also think that the whole “light draining away”, whilst a bit clunky, at least gives a motivation as to why the Elves needed to create the rings and why they did it in such a hurry without taking half a millennia to consider the consequences.
stonehorse wrote: I remember reading someone's theory that halbrand was Sauron and would turn bad due to being rejected by Galadriel... sure glad that didn't happen. [/sarcasm]
How/why would those three wraith/followers of Sauron not know that metor man is
Spoiler:
not Sauron, but a sodding Wizard!
That just felt dumb and done purely for the misdirection.
Yet another slow motion scene of Galadriel riding a horse... for some reason this is going to become a thing in this show I guess.
End music was dire, not many music scores makes me want to claw my own ears off... but that one did.
It must be tempting to throw up misdirecting cues, because every other show does it, and I can only assume a lot of people are entertained by the constant readjusting of their opinions throughout a show. Who's really the bad guy? Is that person who they claim to be? Will those two stay friends? Why did that guy do that? It's easy writing, because it allows you to come up with the answer much later on. The shame of it is they expect us to be astonished at the final reveal when of course, through the endless computations you've had to do in trying to figure it out, inevitably you've reached all the possible answers. By the time of the reveal, whichever way the coin lands, you're over it.
Presenting you with an idea, then disproving it so show you how clever they are, just isn't Tolkien. It might work in other shows, but here it's painfully out of place.
Offering my ha’penny worth as a relative outside observer, given I’ve never read Tolkein. And whilst I’ve enjoyed the films (not you, Hobbit trilogy) I’ve no particular affinity for it. Perhaps my lack of overall…I don’t want to say reverence, but familiarity might do..for the source material might serve as an interesting counter point. Because when you’re a long term fan of a beloved property, perhaps it can be hard to see the forest for the trees, as you’re noticing what isn’t there, and missing what is there.
What follows is not a critique or comment on anyone else’s postings.
This show was….odd.
There are aspects I absolutely loved (Dwarfs, Orcs, Dwarf Cities especially)
Some I’m entirely a bit more positive than ambivalent about (majority of the series)
Some I’m left scratching my head about (surviving a pyroclastic flow to the face)
But overall it’s perfectly enjoyable. As someone familiar with the movie characters, I quite enjoyed the misdirection about which Mystery Mister Was Who. Certainly there were rug pulls, but well enough earned for me, and not “ha ha ha aren’t the audience dum” type rug pulls.
Overall I’ll be tuning in for the second season, whenever that arrives.
Nope, sorry. Zero points. If you are constantly explaining and multiple people don't get it, that's a problem with your explanation.
