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 Shadow Walker wrote:
Which means the only reason they are there is just because the showrunners wanted it because their particular world view.

Ah yes, the idea that everyone being white is the default and any deviation from it must be justified. Totally not racism...

I never said it would be unrealistic to have racial diversity as ours but wanted the reasons why it would be the same. Are there any in world reasons telling that their biology is the same or not? If their biology differs than what is a reason they look like us. No problem with whatever color elves etc. are, but be it more than that ''our world is made of various shades of skin so all fantasy races need to reflect this or the show will be attacked for being racistic''.

Why do dwarves all have beards? Is there a biological reason for it?

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
That aside, what is the deal with Amazon delaying viewers reviews of TROP? Do they really think it will help the show? Do they really think that every review judging the show as bad is written by some troll/nazi/insert the usual nonsense explanation?

Yes, they accurately think the majority of one-star reviews are by racists and/or trolls and are not a valid assessment of the show's quality. Do you dispute that the show is being review bombed like that?

(And please keep in mind that a one-star review means you believe this show is among the worst ever created, not merely flawed or not to your specific taste.)

Yeah. Now that review-bombing is a thing, aggregating fan reviews mostly just lets you know what the Nazi party thinks. At least with anything that has major pop culture implications.

Lord Damocles wrote:All this talk about minorities, but nobody is appreciating the quality writing that tells us that rocks sink because they look downwards, while boats float because they look upwards; but then how do you know which way is up if the light from the sun/tree reflects off the water. That's the less we should all learn, because the immortal elf who doesn't have a word for death won't be here forever.
...wha..?

I didn't mind the talk itself, in fact all the dialogue is really prosey which I like more than how the Jackson movies would alternate between prose and modern dialogue. As for him not always being there - yeah that's a strange thing to say, that's why it surprises her and he changes the subject, we're getting some cheeky foreshadowing, I think.

Grumpy Gnome wrote:I seem to recall reading various folks online talking about the Elves having armor like “the scales of fish” and Dwarves inventing maille. No mention of plate beyond perhaps vambraces? But I may be misremembering. It was a hot topic a few times over on the Lead Adventure Forum and forms part of the foundation of the Dark Ages aesthetics that several Tolkien fans have created.

Doing a bit of quick research on the plate armor, her “ceremonial armor” does not look as bad in the still as I remember… perhaps it was something with how it looked as it was being removed. It looked too much like a prop. Now, if the showrunners are going to sell me on Elven plate, the second photo does a better job. And that was the thing with Jackson. His vision of Gondor armor and Uruk-Hai armor was very different from mine…. but he sold it to me by looking cool enough for me to give him a pass on them.

I would not be keen to wear maille in Arctic cold.. but if I did, having cool looking stars in the armor is a nice touch. ⭐️

Edit: I did not mind the Green Man leather leaf amor. I was not particularly keen on it but nor did it bother me.

In addition to looking cool, by making it so different from the other armour we see it helps sell that these elves are operating in a far removed place, perhaps not even directly associated with the ones in Lindon.

Something about the boat armour looks flimsy, I saw someone compare it to paper plates. The armour we see Galadriel wearing in promo shots is also different than any we've seen before (this costume budget is crazy) and my first guess is Numenorean, but it looks like they are going to have a scale mail focus.

Unrelated to any of that...

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Which means the only reason they are there is just because the showrunners wanted it because their particular world view.

Ah yes, the idea that everyone being white is the default and any deviation from it must be justified. Totally not racism...

I never said it would be unrealistic to have racial diversity as ours but wanted the reasons why it would be the same. Are there any in world reasons telling that their biology is the same or not? If their biology differs than what is a reason they look like us. No problem with whatever color elves etc. are, but be it more than that ''our world is made of various shades of skin so all fantasy races need to reflect this or the show will be attacked for being racistic''.

Why do dwarves all have beards? Is there a biological reason for it?

I feel that there's more need to justify why your fantasy world has so little diversity. You'd need some sort of explanation to justify why elves, dwarves and hobbits are so homogeneous than humans. Or why your humans are all the same, etc. You would not need any justification for why the mix is different from US/Europe because the mix is different from ours throughout most of the planet.

I've seen this addressed quite well in fantasy novels where humans and other peoples have lots of diverse races associated with various regional ancestries or mixes of ancestry and interestingly they do not correspond to any races of humans on earth. Admittedly, that would make casting quite difficult.

 Gert wrote:

trexmeyer wrote:
The Rings of Power is an adaptation that draws far more heavily from modern culture.

What does that mean?
I'm not wanting to put words in mouths here so I'd appreciate you explaining what exactly you mean by "modern culture".

It's now expected that media has some degree of minority and female representation. Most of the earlier Science Fiction and Fantasy was written by white males for white males and featured only white males. Women were present to some degree but as plot devices or secondary/tertiary characters. You can't get away with that anymore in mainstream media.

trexmeyer wrote:
It's now expected that media has some degree of minority and female representation. Most of the earlier Science Fiction and Fantasy was written by white males for white males and featured only white males. Women were present to some degree but as plot devices or secondary/tertiary characters. You can't get away with that anymore in mainstream media.

And why is any of this a problem? Why is there a need to "get away with" having women only as plot devices or background characters? And why do you think that fiction written "for white males" has to work this way? Are white males only capable of reading stories where other white males are the only relevant characters?

And, in the case of RoP, why does any of this matter? How is it "drawing heavily on modern culture" or "no longer true to Tolkien's vision" that some characters are not played by white actors? So far none of that has made any plot difference and the only racial issues that have appeared have been the ones that are clearly presented in Tolkien's work: Men vs. Elves disagreeing over who is to blame and for how long, Elves and Dwarves having different perceptions of how long 20 years is and how insulting it is to stay away for that long, etc. The fact that one of the dwarves is played by a white actor and one by a black actor is completely irrelevant.

I have never said that increased representation is a problem. I have said that not all criticism of The Rings of Power is rooted in racism. Obsess more.

trexmeyer wrote:
I have never said that increased representation is a problem. I have said that not all criticism of The Rings of Power is rooted in racism. Obsess more.

you wrote:This is not necessarily a bad thing but claiming that The Rings of Power is somehow true to Tolkien's vision or intent is frankly absurd.

Please do tell me how RoP is not true to Tolkien's vision without resorting to racism.

trexmeyer wrote:
It's now expected that media has some degree of minority and female representation. Most of the earlier Science Fiction and Fantasy was written by white males for white males and featured only white males. Women were present to some degree but as plot devices or secondary/tertiary characters. You can't get away with that anymore in mainstream media.

Which doesn't apply to Tolkiens works as he very specifically left real world racial indicators out of his writing for the majority of characters and people's. So the idea that his works were written for white men and that using non-white actors is a violation of his works is a load of bull.

Again we’re back to this being an adaptation.

I also happened to read Tolkien’s LOTR as a story about white good men and even whiter elves, with a Semitic dwarf sidekick, fighting against the “unlovely Mongol type” orcs and brown had people. I found that old-timey racism really uncomfortable and think it should be unwelcome in this day. I would no more expect a modern LOTR adaptation to stick to that than I would a Lovecraft adaptation to have only white, wealthy protagonists and all brown people as shrieking cultists. To me, keeping the old-timey racism in LOTR is just like keeping the vagina dialogues in The Godfather: gross and unnecessary.

When a poster claims that discarding the unpleasant old-timey racism is cutting out the core of Tolkien’s writing, I see only the one obvious reason they might feel that way. The other explanations all seem to be word games dancing around the same spot so people can say “nuh-uh” to the obvious.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I also happened to read Tolkien’s LOTR as a story about white good men and even whiter elves, with a Semitic dwarf sidekick, fighting against the “unlovely Mongol type” orcs and brown had people.

You quite literally lost the plot

 odinsgrandson wrote:

 Gitzbitah wrote:
...I definitely regret the loss of detail of the magical barrow blades the hobbits carried and their role in slaying the Witch King, but an extra 30 minutes of Tom Bombadil singing about his yellow boots would not be worth it.

I do not regret that loss. Mostly because it was kind of bad storytelling to have extreme coincidences that solve the heroes' problems, and that's all that really is.

They just randomly find those daggers for no reason and take them with them for equally no reason and only after killing the Witch King of Angmar is it revealed that this hobbit has been carrying around a dagger created with the magic power to wound the Witch King of Angmar specifically- AND it undermines the more interesting gaes story (the Macbeth style prophesy) of how the Witch King is defeated.

That everything sort of hinged on that innocuous moment reminds me of the story of how the little red droid that malfunctioned in A New Hope was force sensitive and was able to see into the future and know that if he malfunctioned at this exact moment it would lead to the downfall of the Empire. And it FEELS like a retcon (because Tolkien didn't revise as much as he should have).

I can see your point there. I took it as reinforcing the idea that everyone doing their part to fight evil would eventually lead to victories of a scale they could not imagine, which is something of a theme through the stories, rather than extreme coincidence. There's a fair bit in fellowship about their history, but that may well have been added after Tolkein decided to slay the Witch King with it.

To counter- a prophecy that 'no mortal man can kill the witch king' in a world full of elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, trolls, and even hobbits, is about as useful as having a prophecy that no knife will kill me today. Of just the core fellowship- Gandalf, Merry, Pippin, Sam, Frodo, Legolas or Gimli could have slain the Witch King- only Boromir, and possibly Aragorn would have been prevented from killing him.

 Manchu wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I also happened to read Tolkien’s LOTR as a story about white good men and even whiter elves, with a Semitic dwarf sidekick, fighting against the “unlovely Mongol type” orcs and brown had people.

You quite literally lost the plot

I’m not saying that’s the best or only interpretation. I’m saying that’s the reading I took from it. (I hope we don’t have to quote the text and his letters for you to get why.). Clearly, from comments in this thread, I am hardly the only one to read the implications that the main characters were all white Europeans.

(And just in case you meant plot literally, I am only addressing the racial makeup of the characters, not the plot or themes of the story or their arcs.)

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
When a poster claims that discarding the unpleasant old-timey racism is cutting out the core of Tolkien’s writing, I see only the one obvious reason they might feel that way. The other explanations all seem to be word games dancing around the same spot so people can say “nuh-uh” to the obvious.

Or they are objecting to your claim that there is any in the first place.

Many of the humans who followed Sauron and Morgoth were described as colored, but it was only purely descriptive. Their color is not taken as a giveaway of them being evil, nor are they disparaged for being lesser in anyway. Their valor and willingness to fight to the death when the Pellanor Fields are won is even praised despite them being on the wrong side. The fact they have been deceived by the darkness does not elicit scorn, but pity and empathy from Faramir and others.

The only beings that are truly hated are the Orcs, but again it has nothing to do with their skin colors, which are fully varied in every way. There are orcs with dark skin, pale skin, mottled, and every shade in between. And even then, while they are inherently evil, and thus should be spurned, they are not irredeemably so. The Last Alliance is described as having every living thing being divided that day with the exception of the Elves, which implies that at least some Orcs fought against Sauron. For even in their blackest hearts, they hate Sauron and Morgoth most of all because it is they who evil has most wronged.

It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".

Grey Templar, by the point where the “bad guys” are considered honorable, we’ve already had lots of “swarthy”, “slanted eyes”, “wiry hair”, and other terms I’d expect in a cartoon selling me war bonds. The descriptors may have been common at the time, but they are loaded today. Again, I’m not the one arguing this is how Tolkien’s work should be presented or that it is an important part of his work—I am arguing against that.

 Grimskul wrote:
It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".

I’m saying when I first read Tolkien, I read it with the same understanding as His Master’s Voice and Shadow, and found that unpleasant, not ideal. I also have not been the same poster arguing Tolkien’s work is inclusive, so you’re conflating me with someone else. I’m arguing that, even if you believe the racial makeup of the main characters was specified by to the original text, it should be discarded.

 Grimskul wrote:
It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".

Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments. And yet we have House of the Dragon and the Sandman with world wide praises despite both having various minorities in their cast. I guess the Nazi are getting sloppy

Things are starting to get rolling with episode 3. Very much into this show.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments.

If you can look at the user scoring and say that it is the result of legitimate opinions and not a racist backlash then you are either really naive or dishonest. You may or may not like RoP and there are certainly reasonable points to criticize but there is no way it is among the worst shows ever created as the number of 1-star reviews would suggest. The fact that RoP is being review bombed is really not open to dispute, and once you admit that review bombing is happening the source of it is pretty obvious.

(And I will note that you haven't commented on anything but the race of the actors. For someone who is skeptical that RoP is being targeted by racists and the 1-star reviews are legitimate you sure don't have much interest in discussing any of its supposed flaws that are unrelated to racism.)

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments.

If you can look at the user scoring and say that it is the result of legitimate opinions and not a racist backlash then you are either really naive or dishonest. You may or may not like RoP and there are certainly reasonable points to criticize but there is no way it is among the worst shows ever created as the number of 1-star reviews would suggest. The fact that RoP is being review bombed is really not open to dispute, and once you admit that review bombing is happening the source of it is pretty obvious.

(And I will note that you haven't commented on anything but the race of the actors. For someone who is skeptical that RoP is being targeted by racists and the 1-star reviews are legitimate you sure don't have much interest in discussing any of its supposed flaws that are unrelated to racism.)

I have commented at the beginning that the show is even worse than both the Witcher and the Wheel of Time, and that after episode 2 I do not intend to continue. I did not descibed it more because others did it better, both here and other forums/sites/YT etc. My first post about accusation of racism was simply a reaction for a post implying that "adjusted for modern audiences" could be just a code for "I don't like those actors being black". Both House of the Dragon and the Sandman faced a racistic backlash, and still there are much much more positive reviews than negative ones. But somehow only TROP is being targeted solely by the hidden racist conspiracy? Have you ever thought that peple are giving a 1 star scores simply because how much dissapointed they are with the show. Some people would react very strongly when their beloved IP is getting the treatment they think is unjust. Call me naive, dishonest, racist, whatever but try to face the sad reality that the majority of the viewers out there simply are either not happy or extremally not happy with TROP.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".

Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments. And yet we have House of the Dragon and the Sandman with world wide praises despite both having various minorities in their cast. I guess the Nazi are getting sloppy

no one's saying it's a conspiracy theory and you fething well know it. However if you think the far right isn't online, and orginized....
well, pay attention to the last few years sunshine

 Shadow Walker wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments.

If you can look at the user scoring and say that it is the result of legitimate opinions and not a racist backlash then you are either really naive or dishonest. You may or may not like RoP and there are certainly reasonable points to criticize but there is no way it is among the worst shows ever created as the number of 1-star reviews would suggest. The fact that RoP is being review bombed is really not open to dispute, and once you admit that review bombing is happening the source of it is pretty obvious.

(And I will note that you haven't commented on anything but the race of the actors. For someone who is skeptical that RoP is being targeted by racists and the 1-star reviews are legitimate you sure don't have much interest in discussing any of its supposed flaws that are unrelated to racism.)

I have commented at the beginning that the show is even worse than both the Witcher and the Wheel of Time, and that after episode 2 I do not intend to continue. I did not descibed it more because others did it better, both here and other forums/sites/YT etc. My first post about accusation of racism was simply a reaction for a post implying that "adjusted for modern audiences" could be just a code for "I don't like those actors being black". Both House of the Dragon and the Sandman faced a racistic backlash, and still there are much much more positive reviews than negative ones. But somehow only TROP is being targeted solely by the hidden racist conspiracy? Have you ever thought that peple are giving a 1 star scores simply because how much dissapointed they are with the show. Some people would react very strongly when their beloved IP is getting the treatment they think is unjust. Call me naive, dishonest, racist, whatever but try to face the sad reality that the majority of the viewers out there simply are either not happy or extremally not happy with TROP.

You could attempt some criticism that doesn't include the fact that a couple of the actors skin colour isn't white, if you wanted to try to convince people you aren't racist.


It's a bit late after two edit: four bloody pages of solely focusing on that. But hey. Keep reaching for the stars!

Watched the third episode and still mostly enjoying.

Finally they mentioned WHO Galadriel is and nice to keep the references to exactly how old she is. Shame no Elrond or Dwarves this week.

Its a bit annoying that only main cast are capable of doing anythng in a fight and anyone else - even Elves are useless.

Still its rattling along and mostly happy

I'm really digging (hehe) the designs of the feral Orcs we're seeing.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".

Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments. And yet we have House of the Dragon and the Sandman with world wide praises despite both having various minorities in their cast. I guess the Nazi are getting sloppy

no one's saying it's a conspiracy theory and you fething well know it. However if you think the far right isn't online, and orginized....
well, pay attention to the last few years sunshine

I know they are online (my country is no different than yours on this matter), and that they are very well organized but telling that they are responsible for some show's failure is just as plausible as any conspiracy theory.

 Gert wrote:
I'm really digging (hehe) the designs of the feral Orcs we're seeing.

Yep they are quite fun and very LOR Orcs.

 Olthannon wrote:

You could attempt some criticism that doesn't include the fact that a couple of the actors skin colour isn't white, if you wanted to try to convince people you aren't racist.

It's a bit late after two edit: four bloody pages of solely focusing on that. But hey. Keep reaching for the stars!

I said that others critised TROP better than I already so there was no point to reapeat it. Also the whole point, as told few times already, was not that they are there but why they are there other than there must be diversity in fantasy or you are a racist (and how one even dare to ask). And the most important thing is that I do not need to convince anyone that I am not a racist. If someone is delusional enough to think that then let him be.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".

Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments. And yet we have House of the Dragon and the Sandman with world wide praises despite both having various minorities in their cast. I guess the Nazi are getting sloppy

no one's saying it's a conspiracy theory and you fething well know it. However if you think the far right isn't online, and orginized....
well, pay attention to the last few years sunshine

I know they are online (my country is no different than yours on this matter), and that they are very well organized but telling that they are responsible for some show's failure is just as plausible as any conspiracy theory.

Yeah... nutjobs review bombing something doesn't equate to failure. Its often the opposite, as the nutjobs tend to leave real failures, mediocre productions or relatively unknown properties alone.
All review bombing indicates in this particular instance is the usual idiots are up to their usual thing.

 Manchu wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I also happened to read Tolkien’s LOTR as a story about white good men and even whiter elves, with a Semitic dwarf sidekick, fighting against the “unlovely Mongol type” orcs and brown had people.

You quite literally lost the plot

Bottom line is... its only bad if western media has white people only in things. All other nations and cultures can have the media casting 100% same race shows and its never a problem..

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
It's baffling to me to see that a lot of supporters of this show seem to hold or at least want us to believe, simultaneously, that “Tolkien’s work applies to everyone and is easily inclusive of this kind of diversity” and “Tolkien was a racist writer and we had to fix his world".

Yeah, also do not forget that many believe in some world wide Nazi/racist conspiracy vs fantasy movies/shows that is either the sole or almost the sole source of negative comments. And yet we have House of the Dragon and the Sandman with world wide praises despite both having various minorities in their cast. I guess the Nazi are getting sloppy

1) There is no world wide conspiracy. There are bigots that exist and the bigots do and say bigot things.

2) Did you not pay attention with Sandman and House of the dragon?

https://torontosun.com/entertainment/television/neil-gaiman-fiercely-defends-casting-kirby-howell-baptiste-in-sandman



https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/some-rings-power-house-dragon-fans-are-letting-their-racism-n1298720

You have to be shoving your head into some pretty deep holes to not at least hear about this crap happening Every Single Time.