I think I may have found something that allows Powerfists to strike first.

According to the CSM codex, the Slaneeshi weapon Doom Siren allows the model to strike first regardless of cover or weapons (paraphrased a little bit, but the important things are down).

According to the BBB, Powerfists always strike at ini 1, regardless of special abilities and etc.

The workaround is that the Doom Siren doesn't change initiative, it just allows the model with the powerfist to strike before everyone else. The ini is stil 1, the model just doesn't use it.

Technically, however, the Power Fist does not say that your Initiative is 1. It tells you to strike at Initiative 1. That phrase directs you to strike at a certain time in the assault phase, and the Siren directs you to strike at a different time in the assault phase. Both say that they disregard the other (Fists disregard wargear/rules/etc, Siren disregards weapons), and both give you contradictory directions as to when to strike, so the rules impasse still exists.

Just checked the errata, and it has three points on the Doom Siren and none of them talk about this. Does anyone know whether the BBB takes precedence or the CSM codex?

Maybe I am reading my Codex completly wrong, but under Doom Sirens it says that models strike in Initiative Sequence. Power Fists are at I 1 so they would go last.

Posted By killerdbz on 04/13/2006 7:52 PM
Maybe I am reading my Codex completly wrong, but under Doom Sirens it says that models strike in Initiative Sequence. Power Fists are at I 1 so they would go last.

Thats how it works alright.

-Legacy40k

Pg. 56 of the Chaos Codex

" In close combat, a model with a doom siren will strike first regardless of cover or weapons as waves of sonic energy buffet and confuse their enemies. If fighting models who also always strike first, then roll a D6 to determine priority."

I don't see anything about initiative sequence in there. I don't know what the priority is with the BBB and the codexes, but right now they just contradict each other and the errata has nothing on it. This argument is purely academic as I play Tau, but I think that you can actually get PF that strike first with it.

Powerfists strike at I 1 regardless of special rules, cover, grenades, wargear, ect.

Doom Siren: Models with it always strike in initiative sequence even if the enemy is in cover.  (Just like plasma grenades)

Since the model is at I1, they strike at I1.  They will attack simultanious to an enemy who is normally I2 however as the warp scream drops them down to 1.

-Legacy40k

Doom Siren: Models with it always strike in initiative sequence even if the enemy is in cover. (Just like plasma grenades)

Not what my codex says. I have the quote just above you which says models with dooms siren always strike first .

You should double check that.  Mine says initiative order, I have the first printing.

Also, even when a unit that should strike first (such as one in cover) has a powerfist, they strike last.  Or with frag grenades.. which make both sides strike at I10,  however, the powerfist will still strike at I1.

"Always strikes first" no longer exists in the most recent version of 40k.  Anything that strikes first, or strikes at the same time strikes at I10.  Powerfists always strike at I1.

-Legacy40k

Just got mine yesterday (as I said, I play tau). Shouldn't have been on the shelf too long either, since the store was sold out on Chaos codexes a month ago.

Pge 46, rule book.
Right column, Power fists:
"A power fist is slow and cumbersome to use, so strikes with a power fist are alwasy delivered at Initiative 1 (Ignore any bonuses for special rules, cover, grenades, or warger, etc.)

I think that's pretty clear. Power fists strike at I1.

Posted By PapaNurgle on 04/13/2006 9:36 PM
Pge 46, rule book.
Right column, Power fists:
"A power fist is slow and cumbersome to use, so strikes with a power fist are alwasy delivered at Initiative 1 (Ignore any bonuses for special rules, cover, grenades, or warger, etc.)

I think that's pretty clear. Power fists strike at I1.


Thats what I thought when I paraphrased it above.

-Legacy40k

Posted By PapaNurgle on 04/13/2006 9:36 PM
Pge 46, rule book.
Right column, Power fists:
"A power fist is slow and cumbersome to use, so strikes with a power fist are alwasy delivered at Initiative 1 (Ignore any bonuses for special rules, cover, grenades, or warger, etc.)

I think that's pretty clear. Power fists strike at I1.


Thats what I thought when I paraphrased it above.

-Legacy40k

Unfortunately, the 3rd Edition of the CSM Codex also makes it pretty clear that models w/ Doom Sirens always strike first. Like Relic said, they are in complete opposition to each other.

P-fists ignore bonuses for special rules or wargear. Doom Sirens strike first regardless of weapon (which really only makes sense for p-fists). Which one takes precedent?

The power fist would still strike at I 1.  The reason why can be found HERE.

I didn't see anything conclusive in that thread. It just ended up with them agreeing that the rules didn't make sense.

Madscientist: 3rd ed chaos codex says it strikes first.

4th ed rulebook makes it pretty plain that no bonuses for special rules, wargear, cover, or etc. I think the Doom Siren would fit under wargear, or etc.

I don't really see much room for arguement here. The Rulebook is clear (for once) and nothing since the rulebook has overridden it.

Posted by Madscientist on 04/14/2006 12:56 AM
I didn't see anything conclusive in that thread.

Except for the little fact that GW says the third printing of the codex has a MISPRINT and it should say that they strike in 'initiative order' and not 'first'.

@Ghaz, Where did you read that GW says it has a misprint? Where was this little nugget published?

Darrian

It was published in the (unofficial?) FAQ which existed for a brief time on the EOT message boards. It has since dissappeared, which is pretty sucky, especially for chaos noobs like me who only very recently purchased the Codex after the FAQ was gone.

I'm sure somebody here can hook you up with it.

Since it no longer exists, it has no place in a RAW argument. HOWEVER, since you now know it existed at one point and contained definitive answers on the subject, it calls sportsmanship into question if you decided to not play by it IMO.

I personally have decided to delay playing (or purchasing) any Chaos stuff until the FAQ is updated, or the 4th edition Codex is completed. Which is too bad, 'cause I had some sweet conversions planned.


The whole thing is screwy, but then again, this is Chaos we are talking about...

? Posts from the Eye of Terror (or any other forum on the Internet, for that matter) are not official. They?re interesting and there?s nothing wrong with following them in common practice, but they are not rules, regardless of the alleged source.

*cough*

Anyway, it isn't even on there anymore, which could mean either it just got lost in the board change, or they decided that the statement they made wasn't true and they retracted it.

As I said, it isn't clear cut.

I'm still of the feeling that powerfists strike at I1 ALWAYS, because thats what the rulebook says clearly, and 2 out fo 3 versions of the chaos codex dont say that you strike first.

That being said.. best way to make everybody happy:  Always Strikes First+Always Strike Last=Strikes in initiative order.  They cancel one another out leaving you with the default of initiative order.

Posted By Legacy40k on 04/14/2006 10:23 AM
I'm still of the feeling that powerfists strike at I1 ALWAYS, because thats what the rulebook says clearly, and 2 out fo 3 versions of the chaos codex dont say that you strike first.

While that's true, it's the newest version, the "3rd Printing", that is causing the problems. Its sucky for people with the older books, but nothing in the first two printings matters anymore.

 

Check your title page. It might be time to upgrade.

All printings are valid, you do not have to upgrade assuming there are no ammendments made that refer back to the first printing.  There is nowhere that it is stated that a doom siren model always goes first in a place people with the first 2 printings (the majority in theory) have access too.

Or in other words.  Unlike many misprints in the first 2 codexs that have had ammendments made outside of a different edition to let those people know.  This "updated" rules of the doom siren have not been announced to people with the first 2 printings, so without an FAQ stating otherwise, the first printings text is valid.

-Legacy40k

How do you figure?

The 3rd Printing is clearly labeled as "3rd Printing". How is that printing not more relevant than the older ones?

Simple reason...  There is nothing that says that when a new printing is released that past printings are now invalid and must be replaced.  They are simply updated with FAQs and external ammendments.

-Legacy40k

heh, looks like it's time to throw my 5 cents of OT-stuff into the discussion :-) You should all note that you are pretty lucky to be american/english 40k players, as it happens to be, the first (!) print of the german codex: CSM, published shortly after the 1st english print, had an exact translation of your 3rd print (!) doom siren rules in it, stating that it'd always strike first. No idea to where they took that translation from. I have no clue wether they changed it in any reprints of the german 'dex, or even if there are such reprints, BUT (watch it children, herew comes the interesting part...)

GW decided to correct the missprint of the first german 'dex, thus published a pdf with rules- and codexerrata. It is still available on the german gw page, in the 'In nomine Imperatoris'-section, called 'Regel-Errata Dec 2005'. and it specifically states in the last section of changes for page 56 german dex Chaos Space marines, that doom siren (Schockbooster in german) allows to strike at initiative order. Period.

Sooo, since the us and uk pages seem to lack a compareable revision stating anything about the doom siren,the german pdf actually wouldn't contradict them. One could thus take the german revision as the actual rules. Of course, this only holds as long as the 3rd english reprint doesn't date back to 2006.
Have a party, grasp yourself a dictionary plus a lawyer and of course, be sure to be prepared for the incoming 'but the english version always overrides changes from files not written in the developers mother-tongue'-arguments.

Hope I've messed up things some more ;-)

Posted By Legacy40k on 04/14/2006 1:17 PM
They are simply updated with FAQs and external ammendments.

If that were true, I would agree with you. However, as shown by the lack of ammendments or FAQs to update older printings after the release of a newer one, this obvoiusly does not happen.

So, according to you, as long as you own multiple printngs of any given codex, you can play with whichever version of the rules you feel like at any particular time, as taken independently any one version is just as valid as any other?

Meaning, when two Chaos players face off (Bob is knowingly playing 1st printing while Frank is knowingly playing 3rd printing), Bob's doom siren equipped models will always strike after Frank's doom siren equipped models? Bob's Defilers will not be able to take any vehicle upgrades, yet Frank's will? Bob's flying glaive prince o' death will be legal, while Frank will not be able to field one?

Interesting...

Well, I have a FAQ and Ammendment that brings the first version up to the 2nd version.. Unfortunatly GW is very slow about updating such things.

Anyways, I know that for the 2 years I played a Slannesh army, Doom Sirens were Initiative order,  I have not come across them since then since then, but since nothing automatically strikes first any more... (They strike at I10 instead, which is not the same) You play it how you like, it doesnt have any effect on me.
 

-Legacy40k

Posted By Legacy40k on 04/14/2006 2:15 PM
but since nothing automatically strikes first any more...

-Legacy40k

Except Doom Sirens in the 3rd printing Chaos Codex, which state that they 'always strike first'.

Seriously, its printed there in black and white.

when you guys get done with this weeks repeat argument
please remeber :doomsiren is not wargear, it is a demonic gift.

@Jeremy, Are you implying that because the Doomsiren is a demonic gift instead of wargear that the powerfists special rules do not apply? What is your reasoning.

Darrian
(Wants the doomfist to work, but just is not sold, yet)

uh... uuuuuuhh.... well, you all know I am kinda slow and all, additionaly suffering from having a german 'dex... if someone doesn't mind, where exactly is the fact that gifts of the gods = daemonic gifts outlined? A page ref really would help, think the german wording may differ a bit. Was this FAQed, or maybe clarified in the reprints?
Thx a bunch + sorry for the off-topic...

Powerfists always strike last. It is right there in black and white.

Ahh, welcome to another episode of the Dakka-go-round...

Anyway, I should point out that I'm arguing only the rules as written, not how I play it, not how I expect any real honest-to-Nurgle human to play it, or whatnot.

Legacy40k: As I've said to others before, vehement argumentation as to why you play a certain way when it has nothing to do with the RAW is irrelevant to the dicussion. You seem to have house rules with regards to versioning and/or Doom Sirens, and that's perfectly fine. It doesn't have any impact on how sirens and fists work together in a RAW perspective.

Fundamanetally, with the current rules universe covering the Chaos codex (the 3rd printing, the 4.0.1 FAQ, and the main rulebook), a model with a Doom Siren and a Power Fist strikes first.

There are two primary reasons for this:

1) The wording in the main book on Power Fists excludes bonuses to initiative, not special rules in general. The Doom Siren provides no bonus to initiative (i.e., it doesn't grant +2I or whatnot), it gives a new rule for swinging that is separate to initiative. To reiterate, the Power Fist fixes initiative, the Doom Siren ignores initiative.

2) The Doom Siren rule is more specific than the Power Fist rule, both by virtue of being an army list rule as opposed to a general rule, and because it specifies "regardless of weapon" when Power Fist is the only weapon rule that modifies initiative available to characters in the Chaos codex -- thus, the Doom Siren specifically references Power Fist, but not vice versa, and as the more specific rule Doom Siren trumps Power Fist.

Now, again, I should point out that this isn't how I play Doom Sirens, but this is -- in the current rules universe -- how they work based on the rules as written.

Thank you Lowinor.

I find your reasoning to be crystal clear and utterly convincing. I also appreciate that while the rules DO support the doomfist, you choose to not use this combination due to sportsmanship concerns. I will follow your example.

I wish we could just lock this thread and save it for the next time some chaos player stumbles onto this combo.

Darrian

What you said about Doom Siren trumping powerfist is an opinion supported by more opinions. That is not RAW.

2) The Doom Siren rule is more specific than the Power Fist rule, both by virtue of being an army list rule as opposed to a general rule, and because it specifies "regardless of weapon" when Power Fist is the only weapon rule that modifies initiative available to characters in the Chaos codex -- thus, the Doom Siren specifically references Power Fist, but not vice versa, and as the more specific rule Doom Siren trumps Power Fist.

Why do you assume that the Doom Siren rule is only referencing any weapon the Champion itself is carrying? When it says 'strikes first, regardless of weapons', that doesn't necessarily mean it is only referring to the weapons the champion is carrying. It could also mean regardless of a weapon the opponent may be carrying that allows a bonus to Initiative or first strike. It could also mean regardless of any weapon that might be introduced in following supplements that has a bonus. Assuming that it references Power Fists specifically grants the wording a false specificity.

A Power Fist tells you when to strike. A Doom Siren also tells you when to strike. Both say that they disregard the other. Assuming that one takes precedence over the other requires an assumption that is not supported by the rules.

@BloodyT, The RAW is very clear unforunately it is also completely contradictary.

Powerfists RAW states "A power fist is slow and cumbersome to use, so strikes with a power fist are always delivered at initiative 1 (ignore any bonuses for special rules, cover, grenades or wargear, etc). BGB pg 46

Doom Siren RAW states "a model with a Doom siren will always strike in initiative sequence even if attacking in cover as the waves of sonic energy confuse and repel them." Chaos codex pg 56 3rd printing

If all you are going to do is look at the RAW, you CANNOT come to a simple logical conclusion since the RAW is contradictary. Lowinor applied logic to the conflict and came up with a reasonable conclusion. You are free to disagree with him but if you do. PLEASE do more than simply restate the RAW. I think we can all agree that there is no conclusive answer if you are only going by the RAW. Maybe you can use GW's simple solution and dice fo rit. I'm going with Lowinors conclusion.

Please feel free to restate the RAW ad infinitum, but it does not solve anything.

Darrian

I think we can all agree that there is no conclusive answer if you are only going by the RAW. Maybe you can use GW's simple solution and dice fo rit. I'm going with Lowinors conclusion.

Does this mean that even though the rules are contradictory, you are taking the interpretation that is more advantageous for you?

@Relic. Since you do not support Lowinors conclusion. What is your conclusion? If I show up to your game with my doomfisting chaos lord at what initiative do I attack in our game?

Please advise.

Darrian

@Relic. Since we have all agreed now that there is no simple answer to be found in the RAW since the 2 rules are completely contradictary, we have to find some other way to answer this question if some player shows up with a doomfist combo. I believe Lowinor came up with a very reasonable solution. I also will not use a doomfist combo, and I do play Chaos primarily, so I am not using the interpretation that is most beneficial to me. Please read my prior posts before accusing me of such.

Darrian

@Relic. Since we have all agreed now that there is no simple answer to be found in the RAW since the 2 rules are completely contradictary, we have to find some other way to answer this question if some player shows up with a doomfist combo. I believe Lowinor came up with a very reasonable solution. I also will not use a doomfist combo, and I do play Chaos primarily, so I am not using the interpretation that is most beneficial to me. Please read my prior posts before accusing me of such.

When this shows up at a game, I do what I believe most reasonable people do. I let my opponent know that the rules are contradictory on the issue, and back it up with the thankfully simple and short case outlined in this thread. I then let him choose whether his doomfist strikes at I1 or first.

If he insists that the rules are not contradictory, and that they are 100% clearcut in allowing the fist to go first, then he is sufficiently unreasonable that trying to change his mind over the course of one game is not worth it, and I continue the game without any further argument on the matter. If he agrees that the rules are contradictory, and that this is a grey area, yet still insists that he gets to go first, then he is unethically taking the most advantageous interpretation of the rule, and someone like that is not worth arguing with either, so the game continues without any further argument. But in almost every instance, the opponent agrees that the rules are contradictory, and takes the least advantageous interpretation. It never turns out to be a very big deal.

And I apologise if I slighted you personally - you had made comments along the line of ' - wants the doomfist to work, but isn't sold yet', so it seemed that you were a player in question who wanted to use the combo.

Why do you assume that the Doom Siren rule is only referencing any weapon the Champion itself is carrying? When it says 'strikes first, regardless of weapons', that doesn't necessarily mean it is only referring to the weapons the champion is carrying. It could also mean regardless of a weapon the opponent may be carrying that allows a bonus to Initiative or first strike. It could also mean regardless of any weapon that might be introduced in following supplements that has a bonus. Assuming that it references Power Fists specifically grants the wording a false specificity.

This is an excellent point, but what other weapons would actually modify this? It does specifically state that models that also have "always strikes first" will get diced off on, so what other than a Power Fist on the champion is actually going to make this any different? I still think that this rule is very specific to Power Fists. Of course, I think my other argument is stronger anyway. This is a shade of the Daemon Icon question; in both cases, the contraversial rule ignores a game mechanic but is proposed to be limited by another rule that simply modifies that game mechanic.

Even though I feel (and have argued) that the doomfist always strikes first under the RAW, one of the main reasons I don't actively play it that way is that the primary reason why the contradiction is resolved is an artifact of the Doom Siren working off of third edition initiative rules while the Power Fist works on fourth edition rules. The 4.2 FAQ plays into it as well. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who wishes to take a doomfist and have it swing first should have to recite the following:

"The Doom Siren was errataed in the 4.2 Chaos FAQ and explained as a misprint, but that FAQ is no longer available on GW's web site, so that ruling is not canonical, but due to the technicalities of how the Chaos codex interacts with the fourth edition main rulebook, it does work."

"The RAW is very clear unforunately it is also completely contradictary..."

To me and my way of thinking that is an oxymoron. If two rules contradict each other then it is not a clear issue. I have to ask myself what is the intent. Did the games designers intend for a model with Doom Siren and a powerfist to strike first? The answer is no in my mind.

You know BloodyT, I was just getting ready to post again in response to your last post when I read over in the cheaters thread that you are a self admitted troll. Oh the good fortune for me, I was going to waste my time trying to illuminate you. Now I can simply ignore your trolling. Carry on.

Darrian

Posted By Darrian13 on 04/15/2006 12:11 PM
If I show up to your game with my doomfisting chaos lord at what initiative do I attack in our game?

Please advise.

Darrian

Although directed at Relic I'll give my 2 cents. I believe the powefist rule overrides the doom siren. However, I would usually allow my opponent to decide and, on occasion, we simply roll off to see how it's played. Not many people take the combo in my area ao it is rarely seen.

As for myself, being mainly a chaos player, my general practice in regards to ambiguous rules such as this is to follow the interpretation that hurts me the most. The reason for this is so that my opponent doesn't think that I am abusing the wording of the rule and it makes the pain of their loss seem a little less.

@Bahkara, I like your reasoning. I hope you did read the prior posts so you know why I posed the question to Relic. If all you are going to use to solve the problem is the RAW, you cannot solve it because the RAW is contradictary. You must either use reason (as Lowinor did) or make some in-game compromise (as Relic did in his response).

Darrian

Posted By BloodyT on 04/15/2006 10:35 PM
"The RAW is very clear unforunately it is also completely contradictary..."

To me and my way of thinking that is an oxymoron. If two rules contradict each other then it is not a clear issue. I have to ask myself what is the intent. Did the games designers intend for a model with Doom Siren and a powerfist to strike first? The answer is no in my mind.

Exactly!  And when a rules interpretation is questionable and in debate, taking the more adventagious interpretation is a form of powergaming.

-Legacy40k

Exactly!

i believe that the powerfist does strike at inititve 1. However, it really doesn't matter, as it strikes before inititve 10 models anyway.

I know this isn't legal, but if you would happen to put the doomsiren on a squigoth (it has initive 1 base) that would strike before everything else.

I feel illuminated now! But how can a squiggoth take the doom siren? Is that really legal?

hPosted By cuda1179 on 04/16/2006 5:40 PM

i believe that the powerfist does strike at inititve 1. However, it really doesn't matter, as it strikes before inititve 10 models anyway.

I know this isn't legal, but if you would happen to put the doomsiren on a squigoth (it has initive 1 base) that would strike before everything else.

Huh?  A powerfist strikes at Initiative 1.. but goes before Initiative 10 models.. that makes no sense at all.

-Legacy40k

Posted By Legacy40k on 04/17/2006 8:42 AM

Huh?  A powerfist strikes at Initiative 1.. but goes before Initiative 10 models.. that makes no sense at all.

-Legacy40k

Think of it like this:

A power sword strikes at Initiative 4, but goes before Initiative 10 models.

Thats what "Strikes First" does. It does not change your initiative, it simply makes you strike before the Initiative sequence occurs. Your initiative is still the same value as it was before.

When a powerfist 'goes' and when it 'strikes' are the same thing. So how can a powerfist strike at both Initiative 1 and first?

In other words, it has I 1, but strikes first regardless. This "strikes at I1, but strikes first" is not a true statement as written.

But, in situations like this should you not refer to the rule book for the final word? Because a red shirt once told me everything that is in a codex can be stricken if it contradicts something in the rule book. So, codex CSM says they strike first, and rule book says that they strike at I 1.

So, you strike at I 1 not before everyone else.

Also, wasn?t the codex written before the new rule book was released making it part of 3rd edt not 4th?

In other words, it has I 1, but strikes first regardless. This "strikes at I1, but strikes first" is not a true statement as written.

Exactly right. 'Strikes at I1, but strikes first' cannot be the solution to the problem. They are two separate points in the close combat resolution. It's like saying 'the train arrives at 9pm, but arrives at 8pm'. These are two separate times - one train can only arrive at one or the other.

The Powerfist does not simply make your Initiative 1. That's not what it says. It says you 'strike at Initiative 1'. That's when your power fist strikes - at the point in the melee phase that is Initiative 1. 'Strikes first' occurs at a different point in the phase. (Unless you believe 'strikes first at I1' means that you strike at I1, but go before other I1 models.) The two instructions are contradictory.

Methinks GW solved this problem under everyones nose, here we go:

Bought a shiney new codex today and broke it open, and took a look at the Doomsiren entry. "... allows a model to strike in initiative order regardless of cover wargear, ect. "

Since a power fist sets your Iniative to 1, thats when you strike. (Note this is an "initiative set" which coupled with the warp scream ability inhearent to all models with the mark of slaanesh doesn't nessecarily mean you'll be going "last")

The old-er interpretation/ruling of this goes something like this.

The powerfist "sets" your initiative to 1 which puts you at a certain spot on the "initiative line" Then your wargear says "strikes first" which sits outside of an initiative set and is not affected by initiative itself, therefore moving you to the front of the "line" irregardless of your initiative. So with your train analogy it'd be more like, "The 9pm train got in front of the 8pm train, because a tornado miraculously picked it up and set it down in front of it,now the 8pm train is after the 9pm train." The 9pm trains engine might be slower but due to extraordinary circumstances (wargear) it's now going to arrive before it.


Kinda a moot point thou.

The powerfist "sets" your initiative to 1 which puts you at a certain spot on the "initiative line"

But that's not right. If it were, then it would be true to say that a doomfist 'has I1, but strikes first'. It's not true, however, because the Powerfist does not 'set' your Initiative to 1. It says, very clearly, that you 'strike at' Initiative 1. That doesn't tell you what to count your Initiative as, nor does it tell you what your Initiative is set as for the purposes of close combat. It tells you the exact time in the melee phase that the powerfist strikes. To strike with a powerfist at a time other than Initiative 1 is directly against what the powerfist tells you to do, which is to strike at I1.

And the Doom Siren telling people to strike in initiative order is, I think, the rule printed in the 1st Printing of the Chaos Codex. That rule is clear. The 3rd Printing, however, which is the one I have and which is the most recent, says 'strikes first'. Which is why this discussion is happening in the first place.

Relic, you're splitting hairs.

Here is the gist of what I'm saying.

If a piece of wargear says you strike "first" then you strike "first" the key here is that it is not giving you a certain initiative with which to strike at, but rather a specific time in which to strike during the assault phase.

Agamemnon:

In your "shiney" (sic) new codex, on the title page, what printing does it say you've got?

That would help, especially if GW pushed a 4th printing out without anyone knowing!

If your codex says 4th printing, or something like it, then you're right! Problem (sort of) solved!

If it doesn't, then we're still right where we've been, and where we'll be, until GW updates their FAQs AND catches all the little issues... (Big IF there!)

Posted By Alpharius on 04/18/2006 10:13 AM
That would help, especially if GW pushed a 4th printing out without anyone knowing!

Yikes!

Yeah, check the very first page at the center near the bottom, just above the regional addresses. There it should list the print edition.

By the way, what country did you buy the codex in? I hear that some are still a printing or two behind.

Thats what "Strikes First" does. It does not change your initiative, it simply makes you strike before the Initiative sequence occurs.

I was just on the phone with a real estate person and he woz saying much the same thing about some very dry swamp land going for a really heck of a deal!

If a piece of wargear says you strike "first" then you strike "first" the key here is that it is not giving you a certain initiative with which to strike at, but rather a specific time in which to strike during the assault phase.

Yes it is all quite clear now? Yes! No! Well???

Ok bloody, show us where "Strikes First" does indeed change the initiative characteristic.

I assume that you have a valid argument and that you are not simply trolling, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Show us where and the argument will be over.

I can show where "Strikes Last" changes the initiative characteristic.

ok, then please do so.

Posted By blue loki on 04/19/2006 7:50 AM
Ok bloody, show us where "Strikes First" does indeed change the initiative characteristic.

I assume that you have a valid argument and that you are not simply trolling, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Show us where and the argument will be over.

I remember reading that strikes first was replaced with strikes at I10, strikes last was replaced with strikes at I1, and Frag Grenades make the user strike at I10, because the defender of cover who "strikes first" strikes at I10.

However, I can only find the last 2 in the rulebook.  Not about units that strike first attacking at I10 (except when defending cover), but this does not address the issue at hand well, or that of wyches or howling banshees who can also "strike first"

Now.. as I recall reading it, and being unable to find it in the rulebook, I have a feeling it was in WD when they were explaining the changes from 3rd to 4th edition.  This being said, I cant remember when that was done to try and look up the issue.

-Legacy40k

The rules specifically state you strike simultaneously with Howling Banshees but nothing states that a powerfist no longer strikes last always.

Posted by Legacy40k on 04/19/2006 11:00 AM
... I have a feeling it was in WD when they were explaining the changes from 3rd to 4th edition...

Nope. You're thinking of the Trial Assault Rules. At present time there is nothing to indicate that 'strikes first' is Initiative 10 or that 'strike last' is Initiative 1.

As the rules stand, a unit that 'strikes first' would do so before Initiative 10 and a unit that 'strikes last' would do so after Initiative 1.

This is a stupid argument.

"Doom Siren

A doom Siren is a complex arrangments of pipes and tubest that magnifies the war cry of the Chaos Space Marine to be a short range sonic attack. Instead of shooting with another weapon the wearer can make a shooting attack using the following profile:

  Range: Template Str 4 AP 5 Assault 1, no cover save

In close combat a model with a Doom Siren will always strike in Initiative sequence even if attacking enemy in cover as the waves of sonic energy confuse and repel them. Enemy who strike first regardless of initiative are unaffected."

When it says "Initiative sequence", it means just that. It's not saying "strikes first".

LOL at 4 pages of crap about what version of codex to use. Why not use the 3rd addition of 40k while your at it?

-I'm out

welll, poop! They muse not care about getting the latest codex here in the Midwest. Screw going to that gameshope for updated codexs.

S1ider,

The entire debate is based on the most recent printing of the Chaos Codex, the 3rd printing, which does indeed say "Strikes First" instead of the text that you just quoted.

"Strike in Initiative Sequence" does indeed fix the entire problem. Unfortunately, the most recent printing of the Chaos Codex drastically changed the way in which the Doom Siren works, and the bit about Initiative sequence no longer exists.

Man! S1ider, did you not read the entire thread before blasting away?

Anyway, we're still waiting for Agamemnon to tell us what printing he's got...

Ho! Sorry I was away for a few days on some buisness and kinda spaced out about this forum (if my head wern't attached to my shoulders I'd loose it)

v1 it seems as there isn't a actual print number on it. (Must have lived in the depths of the storeroom for a while in my store for it to still be that)

 

 

edit:  Take a look at the German site faq on the chaos codex, it states that the doomsiren allows models to always strike in initiative order.

Posted By blue loki on 04/20/2006 7:39 AM
S1ider,

The entire debate is based on the most recent printing of the Chaos Codex, the 3rd printing, which does indeed say "Strikes First" instead of the text that you just quoted.

"Strike in Initiative Sequence" does indeed fix the entire problem. Unfortunately, the most recent printing of the Chaos Codex drastically changed the way in which the Doom Siren works, and the bit about Initiative sequence no longer exists.

This is false... The quote S1ider gives is from the most current codex. I just went to the shoppe where I live and looked. They said this is the newest print of the newest edition.

The argument should be over, considering that people were previously quoting invalid editions of this armies codex (and falsly saying that it was current)..

Game over man

Game over

I have the 3rd printing at home. I am going to read it this evening. If wot S1ider sed is true I will let you know wot I think in regards to that.

Let's see - Blue Loki, speaking very eloquently and clearly as he usually does, says one thing, while two yokels, one who insults everyone and doesn't appear to read anything, and the other who relies upon an (unnamed) store owner's (seller's) statement without looking at the version, say another. Now, who do I believe... hmmmm.... ooohh, this is a tricky one...

Sorry, it's not even a statement by the store owner. Just some unnamed "they".

Often politicians are the ones who are the best able to express themselves. That in itself should serve as a warning to those wise enough.

Anyway, I really wonder why no one wants to take Agamemnon's (or mine, if anyone ever read my post on this topic some pages ago) argument into the discussion. There is an errata for the current (in fact any...) Chaos Codex / Doom Siren, it is indeed of more recent date than the 3rd reprint of the 'dex, it is from GW...

so what is it you all want? Someone mind to at least admit you are arguing just for the sake of having an argument? Pleaaase...

As it stands we are all very aware the issue cannot be solved directly without having some 'official' clarification on that matter. If you are selective which GW documents you accept then again, please at least post it right here!!

I'm a chaos player on my own so of course I'd like to see some of the chaos wargear having actually an impact on the game, other than giving me the ability to strike at my own initiative, except for the cases where it would be useful (e.g. against models who 'strike first'). Yes, I would very much like to see equipment that benefits me more than giving me some expensive alternative to fraggrenades that allows me to strike right after eldar/DE/Nids when charging into cover, instead of simultaniously *sigh*... still, trying to ignore valid arguments won't help the cause!
As always, sorry for the part that's OT, sometimes can't hold myself...

Wise words, BloodyT!

Errata from Germany? I refuse to be forced to learn every language that GW prints Codices in, just so I know what the rules are! The rules are so poorly written at this point, that there are entire armies that I have stopped working on, because I don't want to fight with everyone over the basic rules for the army! Naturally, if I've stopped working on it, I've stopped buying, so that hurts their sales (but helps my pocketbook!)

man this sux! I was told I had the latest edition. I called games workshop and had them tell me what it says and as it turns out......im given my butt handed to me as I HAVE THE 1ST EDITION. I JUST BAUGHT THIS THING NOT TOO LONG AGO AND NOW I HAVE TO BUY ANOTHER ONE. GOD!
He also said that powerfist will always strike last, too, if that amounts to anything here.
Man, im out of this one.

have fun with the rest of the discussion and I apoligize for holding this back.

ps, they need to update army builder too on this.

Antonin wrote:
Let's see - Blue Loki, speaking very eloquently and clearly as he usually does, says one thing, while two yokels, one who insults everyone and doesn't appear to read anything, and the other who relies upon an (unnamed) store owner's (seller's) statement without looking at the version, say another. Now, who do I believe... hmmmm.... ooohh, this is a tricky one...


Wow, just wow.

First I posted one comment on this topic. I stayed out of it simply because I know that there probably isnt' a RAW answer and like not to get headaches. And you act like I have been holding up the arguement. Bravo, bravo, buenisimo...
Freakin Genius.

'after his original post but before this current one'

I decided to actually look at the print, since the source was kinda shaky. The owner really likes comics and I doubt he actually has current anything (40k) on his shelves. I check and low and behold - outdated. I rush back to the comp to edit my post and apologize on how I could even consider trusting another individual on anything reguarding rules or RAW. but apparently I am the yokel.

Peace out, game over.

Yokel

I guess that will have to do for apologies from a couple of guys talkin' tough without reading (I guess?) the *entire* thread.

But really, the fault is all GW's, ultimately. Of course, those FAQs are due to be updated, any second...

Wise words, BloodyT!

I almost want to sig that.

My 2 cents...

The german website is an official source and the errata on that website states for the Doomsiren "... allows a model to strike in initiative order regardless of cover wargear, ect"

So on that official source a doomfister char would strike at I1.

Fortunantly there are people out there who can read the various languages (I'd bet all of them amoungst the lot of us) so we can bring all the different versions of the rules to the table. I'm willing to accept the German errata as cannon.

You'd think GW could put its most up to date stuff on its english sites, wouldn't you?

Hehe I would, but that would require that the things that GW does to make sense, and I'm not going to assume that on a company that doesn't read the rules it publishes =p

I can't disagree about the german FAQ being canon. However, I have no way to determine when it came out, whether it has been superseded by stealth printings, etc. In other words, since I don't speak German, I have no satisfactory way to apply it to my games. And if someone shows up with a bunch of rules in German, and gives me their interpretation, I must admit that I'll be a bit sceptical if the interpretation only helps his point of view. (since I am not educated enough to read German myself)

Harkainos and Sl1der - perhaps the word Yokel was too much - I'll leave all the thoughts the same, but change the "Yokels" to "guys". Obviously, you are not yokels, no more than you are chawbacons.

Can you be sure they're not "chawbacons"?

I mean, I think I read that they were on the Lithuanian C:CSM FAQ 4.000001...