I can't seem to find any of the original threads, but when we had 'ork wish lists' a few months ago I seem to recall quite a few things coming up repeatedly which the new codex has given us:

Better internal balance (flash gits, tankbustas and kommandos were all mentioned frequently as needing a significant buff... all of them got it).

Less reliance on cover, since 'everyone ignores cover now'... they changed the KFF to an invulnerable save and let us add painboys wherever we wanted as an alternative.

Ranged anti-tank (and anti-MC)... now we can spam masses of cheap S 8 shots, many of them with AP 2 or the ability to re-roll failed armour penetrations.

A meaningful Waaagh! rule and better chances of getting into close combat... now we are the only faction which can run and then charge.

I also seem to remember quite a few people saying they weren't bothered about their army becoming significantly more powerful.

Now we've got good information on the new ork codex and it seems that ork players are mostly rather upset even though from what I can see GW gave them exactly what they said they wanted.

There's a few issues though.

Less reliance on cover, since 'everyone ignores cover now'... they changed the KFF to an invulnerable save and let us add painboys wherever we wanted as an alternative.

Except the KFF is now on a per model basis, and the painboy is in a very, very contested slot.

Better internal balance (flash gits, tankbustas and kommandos were all mentioned frequently as needing a significant buff... all of them got it).

Kommando's are still pretty bad without the charge, tankbusters are much better, but flash gitz likely will still see no use.

A meaningful Waaagh! rule and better chances of getting into close combat... now we are the only faction which can run and then charge.

Requires a specific HQ now though, further herding the HQ slot.

I thnk there is a strong initial reaction.

Here are a couple of the worst offenders...

Mob rules
KFF per Model
Lack of FOC Modification via HQ
Congested HQ
Ghaz as LOW and slight Nerfs...
Shootas Boyz 7pts


Now, I agree the Mob rules are Meh
And lac of FOC Modification is for a codex designed for 7th edition FOC/Unbound world.
HQ Congestion is alleviated by OrK Detachment, which works even in Single CAD/2 Detachment Tournamnts
Ghaz as LOW helps HQ congestion, but he took a hit.
At least Boyz got free Stikbombs...and with how much faster Orks can be in assault Choppy Boyz may make a comeback.

I'm waiting to get my hands on a real codex before making judgement, but I wouldn't be surprised if people are able to pull some good lists out of it. Lacking Objective secured on the Ork detachment hurts, but hey, they can still run CADs.

I think people wanted to not lose Wazdakka and Zogwort, FOC-shifting Nobz/Meganobz/Bikes/Dreadz, Looted Wagons and Ghaz.

Personally, I wanted Klan Roolz back.

Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition. Burnawagons are a bit better now, Boomwagons suck.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!

 Yonan wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!

That's the general "bad taste in my mouth" that I'm getting from this release. I was actually thinking about starting an Ork army, but... now I'm not too sure. Whether the codex is competitive or not is besides the point - it looks like it has bad internal balance and weird FOC choices, which will restrict what sort of army you can build while still having it be effective (the Tyranids codex is a big offender of this, as you basically have to play with one of the formations if you want to be competitive).

 DanielBeaver wrote:
That's the general "bad taste in my mouth" that I'm getting from this release. I was actually thinking about starting an Ork army, but... now I'm not too sure. Whether the codex is competitive or not is besides the point - it looks like it has bad internal balance and weird FOC choices, which will restrict what sort of army you can build while still having it be effective (the Tyranids codex is a big offender of this, as you basically have to play with one of the formations if you want to be competitive).

Act now! Your chance to not waste the $50 you spent on your codex with several small payments of $18 each (so I hear) for several lines of additional rules that will let you compete!

Yeah, bad taste is right.

I was also thinking about starting orks... then realised they are the most expensive army point for point (in £ terms) that it would cost an even heftier megaton of cash than normal to get upto 2000pts!

 DanielBeaver wrote:
...it looks like it has bad internal balance and weird FOC choices, which will restrict what sort of army you can build while still having it be effective...

That's totally the opposite of the impression that I'm getting. I think this might be the codex with the best internal balance for years. There are literally two units (nobs and kans) which stand out as sub-par and everything else seems like a valid choice compared to the alternatives.

Do I take the more effective shoota boys as troops, or the cheaper slugga boys? Or the completely ineffective but dirt cheap gretchin?

Do I want kannons, rokkit buggies, deffkoptas, tankbustas or a blitza bomma for taking out vehicles? They all have their merits.

For harassing the flanks of the enemy, do I want kommandos, bikes or stormboys? Or maybe a dakkajet or burna bomma?

Is it better to have a big mek with a force field, or a painboy to protect high value troops? Or both?

Do I want to transport my units in cheap, fast, fragile trukks or expensive battlewagons?

With the last codex, there were really major internal balance issues. Big Meks were pretty much the default HQ, everyone took shoota boys as troops and lootas as elites, transported in battlewagons and supported by dakkajets and deffkoptas. Flash Gits, stormboys, kommandos, weirdboys and many other units were all rather terrible.

I happen to like Flash Gitz and would have built the new Orks had I not started BA who are getting a new codex later this year if the rumors can be believed.

Can't wait to play against the new and improved Orks.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
...it looks like it has bad internal balance and weird FOC choices, which will restrict what sort of army you can build while still having it be effective...

That's totally the opposite of the impression that I'm getting. I think this might be the codex with the best internal balance for years. There are literally two units (nobs and kans) which stand out as sub-par and everything else seems like a valid choice compared to the alternatives.

Do I take the more effective shoota boys as troops, or the cheaper slugga boys? Or the completely ineffective but dirt cheap gretchin?

Do I want kannons, rokkit buggies, deffkoptas, tankbustas or a blitza bomma for taking out vehicles? They all have their merits.

For harassing the flanks of the enemy, do I want kommandos, bikes or stormboys? Or maybe a dakkajet or burna bomma?

Is it better to have a big mek with a force field, or a painboy to protect high value troops? Or both?

Do I want to transport my units in cheap, fast, fragile trukks or expensive battlewagons?

With the last codex, there were really major internal balance issues. Big Meks were pretty much the default HQ, everyone took shoota boys as troops and lootas as elites, transported in battlewagons and supported by dakkajets and deffkoptas. Flash Gits, stormboys, kommandos, weirdboys and many other units were all rather terrible.

I'm going to have to agree with this. Although, I think I read base Nobs are cheaper, its Nobs on Bikes which are the same cost and you can KFF on a Bike if need be too. Cheap foot Nobs rolling out of a Truck or Battlewagon may be viable. That is the exciting part, so many options.

And adding a Painboy to a 180 point unit of boyz is 90pts more boyz for 50pts. That is a steal and cheap available FNP is going to really prove to be amazing in this new dex, especially when those Boyz are moving 6" Running D6" and Charging 2d6" or in Trucks and Battlewagons moving 6" disembarking 6" running D6" and charging 2d6+2" with boarding Planks. That an average of 17.5" average assault threat on foot and 24.5" out of a Boarding Plank Transport. That alone is pretty phenomenal and it will be our first taste of a possible CC army.

I mean 30 Boyz with an average assault threat of 17.5" and FNP, give them cover and they are extremely tough for anyone to remove. That base 230pts and equivalent of 45 T4 wounds vs anything that isn't S8.

Rockits, Rockits everywhere!

From what I've seen so far the book at good internal balance. As far as External balance it is not on par with Eldar, nor should it be as Eldar was an Oops on the power curve, its likely on par with most middle of the road Codices.

Personally I wanted options included in my dex, not things like looted wagons that should be in the main book, or dataslates I will be expected to pay for later to run the nobs and kans again as troops. I would have liked cheaper flyers, more diversity in our supports, not everything good in heavy.

And definatley better ways to get stuck in combat in the overly shooty era of 40k. Mob rule was a huge nerf. trukks killing probably half your guys now is a huge nerf.

Not even going to bother with psychic powers anymore. You either come to the table with 15ish power dice, or you get shut down by your opponent who does have them. Grey knight with inquisitor, elder, and demons are the only ones allowed to play. Space marines with a librarian wont even get to cast a spell, the demon player will just throw 10 dice to dispel. We are no better off.

I wanted to see nob bikers cheaper, and remain as troops with restrictions. Mabye one klaw for every 3 or 4 guys, take away the painboy option like meganobz.

Basically the likes in this for me (mek guns, worthwhile koptas) have been largely drowned out by the garbage.

I wanted looted lemun russ tanks with BS8.

 kronk wrote:
I wanted looted lemun russ tanks with BS8.

Firing mind bullets and packing serpent shields?

But seriously what I wanted out of the ork codex was to have a number of viable, fun builds. Whilst there is currently a strong reaction to the codex (largely negative) a read through for me just seems fun, alot of cool relics and warlord traits, points dropped largely across the board.

I actually wanted the ork codex like 3 weeks ago...

 Yonan wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!

Get off it.

The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.

There is no "Day 1 DLC" to it, just that the unit in question could not be re-added to already printed books.

This is a case where GW actually listened to their fanbase and you want to complain about it because you seem to think they should have just burned all the Ork Codices they already printed and Re-printed new ones, while raising the Prices of everything to make up for that loss right?

The movements of business often look like attempts to screw the average joe out of his money, and will usually be regarded as such even if the truth stands to the contrary.

The cynicism fits the hobby pretty well, though.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!

Get off it.

The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.

There is no "Day 1 DLC" to it, just that the unit in question could not be re-added to already printed books.

This is a case where GW actually listened to their fanbase and you want to complain about it because you seem to think they should have just burned all the Ork Codices they already printed and Re-printed new ones, while raising the Prices of everything to make up for that loss right?

Im pretty sure the rumors for the white dwarf looted wagon release came out about the same time that the no looted wagon in the codex rumors came out....In fact I think the 2 rumors were part of each other.

i wanted my nob bikers cheaper.
i wanted to run and charge

except i got:
nob bikers can't be troops
i don't like Nobs in my 30 man shoota blobs. i don't like stikk bombs and it seems i get free stick bombs but my shoota's are 7 points now. you can keep your free stikky bombs.
my lootas are now HS
my deffdred can't be a troop
my big guns took a big hit, because i fielded 3 units of 3. now i have to dump the deff, or run an unbound list which i don't like.
also, i hate that my dakkajet took such a huge nerf. from 18 shots on a waagh to 10. wow. now its a completely PoS model. sorry. its not going to be effective anymore. at str 6 shots i needed those high shot numbers to effectively kill some flyers and also kill certain armor.

overall. the codex is a disappointment to me. yeah, theres good stuff but a lot of the changes seem unnecessary and ultimately decimated my 1850 list. and I think all our lists were ruined to accommodate the new models they want us to buy. sorry, i don't like flash hits. they don't impress me. they're too pricy. I don't like the stompa-naught things. i don't like the new mek guns.

I wanted to lose all invulnerable saves on my characters! Too bad GW frelled things up by giving me a ++ save with the KFF, but at least they made it models only instead of units and only vs shooting!



Said no frelling Ork player ever.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Im pretty sure the rumors for the white dwarf looted wagon release came out about the same time that the no looted wagon in the codex rumors came out....In fact I think the 2 rumors were part of each other.

Not to mention, if GW were doing it "for the fans" it would have been released free online, not in a limited run magazine that no one buys. It was purely a way to prop up magazine sales and in general, get more money out of players for something that was cut - for whatever reason - from the previous edition.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
you want to complain about it because you seem to think they should have just burned all the Ork Codices they already printed and Re-printed new ones, while raising the Prices of everything to make up for that loss right?

I want to complain because GW thought it would be a good idea to remove a unit from the codex that people had gone through a lot of effort to make models for. I'll include some examples, there's plenty more:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.

As others have pointed out, the news that the wagon was being released in white dwarf came at the same time as the news that it wasn't int he codex. How exactly was this driven by demand?

...because you seem to think they should have just burned all the Ork Codices they already printed and Re-printed new ones, while raising the Prices of everything to make up for that loss right?

I can't speak for everyone else, but what I think is that they should never have been taking options out of the codex just because they haven't bothered to release a model at any point in the last 15 years.

Particularly this one, when they could very easily have just offered a bundle deal with an Imperial tank and a sprue of Ork Gubbinz and called it a day.



Wazdakka has been in the game since 2nd edition. And again, removed rather than release a model. All because since the Chapterhouse verdict GW are worried about other companies 'stealing' sales of things that GW don't make themselves.

You know how else to fix that, without annoying existing players? Just release the damn models yourself!

So, on topic - What I wanted from the Ork codex was to not have existing models invalidated due to GW's short-sighted business practices.

I also wanted an army that is playable in a reasonable amount of time rather than having more random tables added in.

Along the way, I would have liked to not have my warbikes nerfed and my stormboyz made even worse than they already were.


Tankbustas having a transport is nice, though. Yay.

 Perfect Organism wrote:
I can't seem to find any of the original threads, but when we had 'ork wish lists' a few months ago I seem to recall quite a few things coming up repeatedly which the new codex has given us:

The way I see it, the most important things that make a good codex is a diversity of builds that all have a reasonable chance of dealing with the basic threats in 40K (Hoards, Deathstars, Mech, Fliers).

The way I see the Ork codex it should have at least 4 viable lists.
1) Green Tide. <- Shoota boyz cost more, Nobz less. Waargh is better Mob Rule is worse. I think it is a wash, aka this is still not a very workable list.
2) Speed Freaks <- Orks in transports. Ramshackle made trukks way worse. KFF changes made trukks and BWs worse. BW points went up. Nerf to this.
3) Biker Deathstar <- Bikes lost their cover save. so far looks like a nerf.
4) Kan Wall <- This is where I'm thinking the Gorkanaught fits in. Gork > Deff Dred > Kan. Deff Dreds are no longer troops, and Kans are still made of paper with short range shooting. It was a bad list before. Maybe it is less bad now. Not sure.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!

Get off it.

The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.

There is no "Day 1 DLC" to it, just that the unit in question could not be re-added to already printed books.

This is a case where GW actually listened to their fanbase and you want to complain about it because you seem to think they should have just burned all the Ork Codices they already printed and Re-printed new ones, while raising the Prices of everything to make up for that loss right?

In all honesty, considering that GW has never listened to their fanbase before, why do you think this is actually something they thought the fanbase cared about and did? It's not even close to likely they did it to placate fans and more they just decided to make it outside the codex for money,

The inital reaction in the rumors thread was pretty harsh, but I think that even now tempers have cooled and people are seeing the positives.

Anyways: What I was hoping to get was:

Cheaper Boyz or that rumored 6+ FNP

Dedicated transport BWs

IC Painboyz

Better Waaagh

Better Ghazgkull

Some way to mitigate casualties from the front/challenges

Better ranged support besides lootas

Cool Psychic power

In the end I got a mixed bag of what I wanted. Im really ticked about the new mob rule though and Ghazzy being a LoW without any stat changes (he actually got weaker)

From the codex, I was hoping for:

Making commandos worth taking. I would also have liked them to be able to take tankbusta bombs, since they could in the 3rd edition codex and I modeled all of mine with them!

Make tankbustas actually useful for busting tanks. This one seems like they managed it, and added a dedicated transport option to boot.

Make Flash Gitz fun and worthwhile vs. Lootas. I think they accomplished this, but I would have liked, given the options on the sprues, for gitz to be able to take (on a per model basis), a more dakka (shoota bits), shootier (rocket bits) or burny (plasma bits) upgrade to their gun.

Ork Morale rules that mitigated low ork leadership. The chart does, kind of, in some circumstances, but it is clunky and inconsistent. We needed a simple rule that reflected that large mobs of orks (and orks in large mobs) tend to be insanely confident. The old "Mob Up" rule wasn't perfect, but I feel like it captured the essence of orky fighting much better than this rule.

Some sort of rule to reflect the orkish drive to get into a fight. I liked the old Furious Charge, because it boosted standard ork initiative to be equal to human initiative on a charge. This made sense to me.

Orkish durability amped up to be competitive with other melee armies. I don't mind bionics conveying Feel No Pain. I think that's more appropriate than invulnerable saves anyway, but the reduction in the availability of bioniks, and the lost opportunity to return Medi-squigs to Mega-armor (which would make them tough like terminators, but in a different way) was disappointing.

Some sort of changes to the rules to allow hordes of orks to be competitive in a scene dominated by large models and shooting. I didn't really care what, but the lack of ANY attempt to do so really grates.

Special charts for special models. They did this with the blitza-bomma, so I am happy with it.
They failed to do so with most of the Mek Guns (bubble chukkas have random STR and AP?), so

I also expected to RETAIN:

Orky approach to psychic powers, rather than generating some and using them largely like other psykers. Though the weirdboy/warphead rules weren't perfect last edition, I feel the unpredictable nature of the powers was more in tune with orks.

Ramshackle as a facet of orky vehicles (in the actual rule, where the vehicle might go out of control and kareen all over the place). I honestly expected to see it expanded to other ork vehicles.

Ork guns being used as artillery and as mounted guns. I'm very disappointed that the battlewagon can't take any of the new Mek Guns.

Some method of boosting ork leadership. We lost the Iron Gob (+1 Ld) in the last edition, but at least, you had Fearless with enough orks. Now, almost all the characters have the same leadership as the boys, and no boosts available.

Looted Wagons with at least as many options as before, if not more. GW KNOWS that people made these models. There's no way they were 'surprised' that people who converted their own models might object to losing them in the codex. There may have been some struggle between creatives and beancounters, but this was totally forseeable.

Preservation, or even expansion, of the options to alter the FOC. Allowing things like Biker Troops and Dread troops was a great way to allow people to customize and personalize their army. Given the rampant customization available through Chapter Tactics (and there are TONS of Chapter Tactics), dropping this was a punch in the janglies. You could have had Clan Taktics (if your Warboss is from the Evil Suns clan, bikes and buggies become troops choices, but Grots become Heavy Support. If your Warboss is from the Goff Clan...)

Preservation of orkish lore. Stikkbombs should not be standard, since most orks don't know which end to throw. Ardboys should be uncommon, since not many orks get to nail all those plates together (or to themselves).

Stormboys as a mobile unit. Now, it appears that moving fast kills them just as fast.


I don't hate the new codex, but I'm really disappointed that this appears to be their best effort. I could have written a better codex myself, in a week (and I honestly am not exaggerating on that, assuming I can use cut and paste from old codices). This codex could have been amazing, and instead, it's kind of meh.

Plus, looking at the new models and the detail that they are capable of, GW had the opportunity to blow the roof off with a codex/model release combo, and didn't really run with it. You have these amazing, huge mek guns, but they are functionally just 'guns', and taken in batteries of 1-5. Personally, I like the Gorkanaut, but treads on the model would have made it more plausible (and easier to pose) and the Assault rule (especially given that huge set of bay doors) would have made it a plausible Nob delivery vehicle. But you asked about the codex only, so I should stop harping on that stuff.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!

Get off it.

The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.

Any evidence of this?

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!

Get off it.

The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.

Any evidence of this?

Evidence for it being GW listening to players:
- *crickets*
Evidence for it being GW increasing cost whilst reducing product:
- 10 man DAs > 5 man DAs, basically same price.
- Data slates costing $18 for 5 lines of new rules.
- Codex supplements costing $30 for a new warlord table, some artifacts and a couple new special rules.
- 7th ltd ed rules costing double the previous ltd ed rules - and not selling near as well.
- New Ork walker thing half the size for the same price as the previous Ork walker thing.
- New Ork character for $37 for a single small plastic sprue.
- White Dwarf Weekly far less content for not much less price, I forget the specifics.

I could go on but you get the idea. There's a clear trend of GW offering less product for more money and no trend of GW listening to their players, if anything they're just getting more out of touch.

All I know is I am not paying $63.00 for 3 Plastic figures. My limit is reached.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
I think people wanted to not lose Wazdakka and Zogwort, FOC-shifting Nobz/Meganobz/Bikes/Dreadz, Looted Wagons and Ghaz.

Is Ghaz not in the 'dex anymore? Cutting more out for extra releases ; /

fixxxer76 wrote:
All I know is I am not paying $63.00 for 3 Plastic figures. My limit is reached.

In Canada it's $76, oh and 3 killa kans is only $55... which is the exact same price as a single mek gun.... seriously... gw... rob ford needs crack too!

 Yonan wrote:

 Chumbalaya wrote:
I think people wanted to not lose Wazdakka and Zogwort, FOC-shifting Nobz/Meganobz/Bikes/Dreadz, Looted Wagons and Ghaz.

Is Ghaz not in the 'dex anymore? Cutting more out for extra releases ; /

It's actually a supplement, it's his WAAAGH! apparently.

He's in the dex as a LoW

I wanted:

Make slugga boyz competitive vs shoota boyz and vs other armies' troops
More anti-armour options than Nobz with power klaws
Flash Gitz rules improved; Flash gitz to elites and lootas to HS
Weirdboyz to Elites
Painboyz as a cheaper upgrade for more units, with a boy's statline
Transport options for units that didn't have them
Bikes cheaper
The ability to take grots in boyz mobs to soak up casualties

Honestly, what we're getting is way better than anything I could have come up with.

Perfect Organism wrote:... the new ork codex and it seems that ork players are mostly rather upset

The rules changed and people got upset on DAKKA!? What?

With a few exceptions (like continuing the curious recent trend of removing special characters), the biggest problem is that it didn't meet people's wildly exuberant expectations, which is totally GW's fault, I'm sure. That and things changed at all. I guess it's somewhat excusable given that orks have had two or fewer codices for a vast majority of ork players up until just now. Most of them likely haven't gone through a codex change before, and so are shocked to see that their army could be different over time.

Plus, of course, the same tired, endless griping about GW in general...

 Ailaros wrote:
...the biggest problem is that it didn't meet people's wildly exuberant expectations, ...

Yeah, totally unreasonable for people to expect their models to remain legal, and for bad units to not get worse...

 insaniak wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.

As others have pointed out, the news that the wagon was being released in white dwarf came at the same time as the news that it wasn't int he codex. How exactly was this driven by demand?

Not true. The pod-cast who mentioned looted wagons being gone for the first time was two weeks before the White Dwarf.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
I think people wanted to not lose Wazdakka and Zogwort, FOC-shifting Nobz/Meganobz/Bikes/Dreadz, Looted Wagons and Ghaz.

Personally, I wanted Klan Roolz back.

I doubt many people actually miss Wazdakka as a character, especially since you can just rebuild him by giving a Big Mek the relic bike. What people do miss is the option of taking bikes as troops.

 Jidmah wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.

As others have pointed out, the news that the wagon was being released in white dwarf came at the same time as the news that it wasn't int he codex. How exactly was this driven by demand?

Not true. The pod-cast who mentioned looted wagons being gone for the first time was two weeks before the White Dwarf.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
I think people wanted to not lose Wazdakka and Zogwort, FOC-shifting Nobz/Meganobz/Bikes/Dreadz, Looted Wagons and Ghaz.

Personally, I wanted Klan Roolz back.

I doubt many people actually miss Wazdakka as a character, especially since you can just rebuild him by giving a Big Mek the relic bike. What people do miss is the option of taking bikes as troops.

As above

I also know what my friend in the studio told me, which was that this was why WD didnt have the weird boy bit in it- rush job due to demand. Yonan is aware of this, buit likes to pretend otherwise with "crickets" remarks.

You having "a friend" somewhere doesn't override GWs track record.

"I have a friend in GW design who told me this was purely due to wanting an extra $4." See - easy.

 Ailaros wrote:
the biggest problem is that it didn't meet people's wildly exuberant expectations, which is totally GW's fault, I'm sure.

I have 3 versions of my Space Wolves codex, at least 3 versions of Space Marines, 3 versions of Tyranids, 4 versions of SoB including the pre-witchhunters, witchhunters, WD and now digital, and 2 versions of Orks. This has nothing to do with "just change" and everything to do with GW's seemingly sudden inability to make a Xenos codex with crapping all over it.

No invulnerable saves for characters?
Mob Rule that is needlessly more random, complicated and worse than the old rule?
Removal of Looted Wagons for seemingly no reason?
STILL not giving Weirdboyz any options? And his discipline access is hilariously bad. Hm... I can either take "Perils on any double", or a bunch of Witchfire powers on my BS2 model! *fingertwirl*

So yes, it is in fact GW's fault that this codex didn't meet expectations. I hoped for something fantastic, I mean, Orks have been waiting for awhile, but I knew better than to think I'd get what I hoped for. I expected "decent, maybe on Space Marines level". I somehow didn't even get that.

Most of the witchfires are blast though, with mitigates some of the problems hitting?

Actually, all but one don't need to hit, since they are blasts, templates and beams.

BS still figures into hitting with Blasts.

Overall, it's still a crappy power set for orks, especially as Blessings are still king and our one blessing doesn't really do anything all that special. Attacks arent exactly lacking for Orks... That's before figuring everything that actually goes into Witchfires. Weirdboyz were underwhelming at it was, they're still underwhelming considering what they compete with, what options they have (read: none), and really their complete lack of any buff. The off chance that you'll hurt yourself is just crap icing on the turd cake, really.

 Perfect Organism wrote:
Now we've got good information on the new ork codex and it seems that ork players are mostly rather upset even though from what I can see GW gave them exactly what they said they wanted.

Slugga Boyz will still bounce off of Space Marines in assault, especially if the Marines are using Ministorum Priests and/or Biomancy powers to buff themselves. Lack of choppa rule and lack of power weapons aside from klaw on the Nob make it so that Ork Mobs are still just ablative wounds for a Nob with a PK, and with the new Ork morale rules, those wounds will die even faster.

I was just hoping for assault to be better, but they seem to have doubled down on making Orks shooty (while still leaving them woefully lacking in S9+ AP2 shooting weapons... in fact, the only ones I can thing of are SAG, Zzap gun, and Smasha Gun, all three of which are random Strength and so might not be that good).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:

fixxxer76 wrote:
All I know is I am not paying $63.00 for 3 Plastic figures. My limit is reached.

In Canada it's $76, oh and 3 killa kans is only $55... which is the exact same price as a single mek gun.... seriously... gw... rob ford needs crack too!

I think I better get some Killer Kanz before they jump up in price. I already have a few, but some new ones would be easier to model as I'm considering.

I could've thought up 6 super orky powers to release with the weirdboy...you mean to tell me GW took away all his coolness? He's just a substandard psyker now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ork powers:

1. Machine weirding. WC:2 Malediction. 24" range. Do 1 hull point of damage to an enemy vehicle. Additionally, if there are any troops inside the vehicle, they must pass a toughness test or be removed from play. No saves of any kind are allowed.

2. Body weirding. WC:2 Malediction. 24" range. Target must pass a toughness test or be removed from play. No saves of any kind are allowed. If a model in a unit is lost from this, the unit is blind until the beginning of the caster's next psychic phase.

3. 'Ard Candy Shells. WC:2 Witchfire. Template. AP2 Wounds on the armor value of target. If a model takes a wound from this power, and is still not destroyed, the model must take another wound from 'Ard Candy Shells.

4. Let da worp do my biddin'. WC:3 Witchfire. Large Blast. 24" range. S: 6 AP: 6. Rending. Armorbane. Scatters on 4d6. BS is replaced with caster level + warp charge successes rolled.

5. Harharharharhar! WC:3. Malediction. Range 24". Target psyker/unit will not generate warp charges or use psychic powers during their next psychic phase. If there are any other psyker/units within 12" of the initial target, this power then may target those psykers/units.

6. Waaaaagh! WC:3. Augment. Range 18". During a turn which a Waaaaagh! has been issued, all models in this spell's range gain Armorbane.

Your number 2 is an overly hyped version of the new number 1. Their 2 WC charge large blast is nice, they have a beam and some highly potent vomit which are both quite orky and dont take BS into account.

All in all the new powers are potent, destructive and actually quite orky.

Primaris) Small blast frazzle
1) Focused witchfire, causes a wound
2) Extra attacks!
3) Teleporting!!!!
4) Beam of Green Energy
5) Super Vomit
6) A large blast that if you roll 11 or 12 for strength smashes into them again

Frazzle was already small blast. It wasn't great before, it isn't great now. Still has to hit, and considering BS2 scatters an average of 5" when it does scatter.

Focused witchfires are still terrible, since you have to exceed the WC of the power to actually pick the target. That's assuming your BS2 hits, and the power is a T test for a wound. Low T things come in mobs that numbers aren't usually an issue. High T things aren't going to fail that T test all that often.

Extra Attacks. *finger twirl* Sure, in a MANZ unit that might be good. 31 extra attacks at I2/S4 (assuming your Orks charged) is only a couple extra wounds against MEQ (assuming you didn't lose boyz before you swing). It's even less if you DIDN'T get the charge and are S3. If Boyz had access to power weapons or something, that might be better. Maybe in a Burna unit or something, either way, attacks aren't something Orks have ever lacked for. An I boost, some sort of save... just about anything would be better for Boyz.

Teleporting: Meh. I've never been a big fan of deep strike outside of things like Drop Pods or Mawlocs that don't die if they mishap. Boyz can't attack out of a deepstrike, and you're forced to bunch your unit up making it a tasty treat for blasts.

Beam. IIRC, this is S10/AP2? That will actually be nice. Some sort of AP2 and it gets around BS2. Still, witchfires are considered weak for a reason. The easier DtW that blessings don't deal with is why Blessings are still king.

Template range on a 6+ no armor model, so he'll be at the front. Hope you're going after small units like Terminators or something, because you Weirdboy is almost guaranteed to die the next turn. Even then, you're generally safer drowning them in Shoota fire. Not like it can be used for Overwatch or anything.

More random strength stuff. If I wanted something I'd roll 11/12 for, I'd for the Shokk attack gun. At least that becomes a vortex instead of just hitting again.

 Yonan wrote:
You having "a friend" somewhere doesn't override GWs track record.

"I have a friend in GW design who told me this was purely due to wanting an extra $4." See - easy.

Irrelevant to me. I know I'm telling the truth, you see, but I'm not making an appeal to authority. All I see is your consistent, one sided view on this, which is amusing when talking about failings in others.

I actually have two good friends (as in, one lived with me for a few months) in the studio, so I know my sources are valid. Yours is e same hyperbole in this and every other "day one DLC" bollocks thread, and you ignore anything mitigating - provably so - every time. Try being more balanced and less hyperbolic, and it might result in people listening to you more.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
which was that this was why WD didnt have the weird boy bit in it- rush job due to demand. Yonan is aware of this, buit likes to pretend otherwise with "crickets" remarks.

I don't understand. The Weirdboy is definitely in the codex (which should have already been at the printers, no?) so why would he be in the WD? As a featurette or something?

 streamdragon wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
which was that this was why WD didnt have the weird boy bit in it- rush job due to demand. Yonan is aware of this, buit likes to pretend otherwise with "crickets" remarks.

I don't understand. The Weirdboy is definitely in the codex (which should have already been at the printers, no?) so why would he be in the WD? As a featurette or something?

Yeah, as a promised feature, and also other layout clues - cf the morka/gorka naught issue with the looted wagon entry, eg the composition. Rush copy and post based on the outcry.

I'm no white knight, just dislike such obvious bias go unchallenged.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
which was that this was why WD didnt have the weird boy bit in it- rush job due to demand. Yonan is aware of this, buit likes to pretend otherwise with "crickets" remarks.

I don't understand. The Weirdboy is definitely in the codex (which should have already been at the printers, no?) so why would he be in the WD? As a featurette or something?

Yeah, as a promised feature, and also other layout clues - cf the morka/gorka naught issue with the looted wagon entry, eg the composition. Rush copy and post based on the outcry.

I'm no white knight, just dislike such obvious bias go unchallenged.

That makes a bit more sense. Still, GW certainly did seize the opportunity to monetize it, instead of making it a free download or something. So while Hanlon's razor may apply, it still sucks for Orks.

Maybe I just have a bitter taste after my Nids though.

I think what I was hoping for was not having to feel like I have to throw units out the window as I build my list. It seems so difficult to keep Boyz alive now, more than ever. I know the KFF was kind of cheesy as a whole, if just one Boy touched it, the entire mob got the cover save. But even replacing that to a 5++, but only for the models touching is a large nerf, despite the better save.

I was also hoping we would get easier access to Invul saves like other races. We got virtually NONE. Our Warbosses are almost useless in CC now. The Painboys being allowed to go wherever is awesome, and helpful...but if its a mere 6+ FNP...well...we won't be saving very many Boyz.

Why the Hell do ALL our saves need to be 6+? (excluding KFF). Seriously. Why do they have to slap Orks in the face with this gak? I know we have loads of models on the table, but when they just...DIE with the most MINIMAL effort by your opponents...it's just annoying as gak.

As a whole, I wanted SURVIVABILITY over anything else. They just made Orks easier to kill. Especialyl that gakky ass Mob Rule chart.

Painboys give 5+ FNP
Eavy Armour 4+ Armoursave
Mega Armour 2+ Armour Save.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
the biggest problem is that it didn't meet people's wildly exuberant expectations, which is totally GW's fault, I'm sure.

This has nothing to do with "just change" and everything to do with GW's seemingly sudden inability to make a Xenos codex with crapping all over it.

Eldar, Tau, Daemons

 Billagio wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
the biggest problem is that it didn't meet people's wildly exuberant expectations, which is totally GW's fault, I'm sure.

This has nothing to do with "just change" and everything to do with GW's seemingly sudden inability to make a Xenos codex with crapping all over it.

Eldar, Tau, Daemons

I believe he is refering to the trend that was started by the tyranid codex, thus the word sudden.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
You having "a friend" somewhere doesn't override GWs track record.

"I have a friend in GW design who told me this was purely due to wanting an extra $4." See - easy.

Irrelevant to me. I know I'm telling the truth, you see, but I'm not making an appeal to authority. All I see is your consistent, one sided view on this, which is amusing when talking about failings in others.

I actually have two good friends (as in, one lived with me for a few months) in the studio, so I know my sources are valid. Yours is e same hyperbole in this and every other "day one DLC" bollocks thread, and you ignore anything mitigating - provably so - every time. Try being more balanced and less hyperbolic, and it might result in people listening to you more.

Maybe if GW actually did things to show that this was something they did out of gratuity to the community, rather then something they usually do to gain more money.

Considering that they could:

A: Talk about it with the fans, maybe actually say it was due to the outcry (Which I still don't believe, considering their attitude towards Chaos Space Marines)

B: Instead of stuffing it into White Dwarf, put it up on their actual site rather then in something for payment format.

As a result of their constant practices, it's hard to believe otherwise, even with "Friends" telling you.

From fan outcry? LOL! That's a good one. I'll have to remember that one. GW doesn't listen.

My problems with the new codex are as follow:

1. No clan tactics
2. No way to switch FoC slots
3. Painboy/Mek/Wierdboyz should be slotless 0-3 per detachment as IG
4. Mob Rule should be back to what it was
5. Boyz should be 1 point less (by removing stikbombs)
6. Killkannon should be S8 like they told us in the WD
7. Cybork body should be back to what it was
8. Orkanaut should have assault vehicle

Everything there is minor and I’ll just make due.

NamelessBard wrote:
2. No way to switch FoC slots

Unbound makes this uneccessary. I doubt we'll see much in the way of FOC switching from any 7th ed codex.

 insaniak wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:
2. No way to switch FoC slots

Unbound makes this uneccessary. I doubt we'll see much in the way of FOC switching from any 7th ed codex.

You make me a sad panda :(

In this thread:

They changed stuff so my army list is no longer valid and I will have to change stuff, this means the codex sucks.

DaPino wrote:
In this thread:

They changed stuff so my army list is no longer valid and I will have to change stuff, this means the codex sucks.

In this post:

I have no concept of reading comprehension, hurr durr durr derp.

Seriously, several arguments beyond "muh armies" have been laid out. Try actually responding instead of drive by gak-talking.

And how many players that made said arguments have played more than 2 games with the new codex?

Agreed, sometimes you just don't need a lot of experience to realise it isn't good. But, given that the new edition has only been out for 1 month combined with the fact that the ork codex has yet to celebrate it's one-week-anniversary, I'd say people are complaining about things they have no experience with whatsoever.

DaPino wrote:
And how many players that made said arguments have played more than 2 games with the new codex?

Agreed, sometimes you just don't need a lot of experience to realise it isn't good. But, given that the new edition has only been out for 1 month combined with the fact that the ork codex has yet to celebrate it's one-week-anniversary, I'd say people are complaining about things they have no experience with whatsoever.

You mean besides actually comparing to how it worked before with visual representation and actual statistics?

Such as the KFF 5++ model vs cover save whole unit?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DaPino wrote:
And how many players that made said arguments have played more than 2 games with the new codex?

Agreed, sometimes you just don't need a lot of experience to realise it isn't good. But, given that the new edition has only been out for 1 month combined with the fact that the ork codex has yet to celebrate it's one-week-anniversary, I'd say people are complaining about things they have no experience with whatsoever.

You mean besides actually comparing to how it worked before with visual representation and actual statistics?

Such as the KFF 5++ model vs cover save whole unit?

So as my post sais, sometimes you don't need to play something to tell wether it's become better or worse. Yeah, KFF is such a case.
Then again, does that justify shunting the entire codex, saying it is a complete letdown? Not really because you have a lot of stuff you haven't actually tried out but that doesn't matter because they nerfed something you used before.

I've got people running around my FLGW, crying about how 7th edition was the final nail to the coffin of GK as a viable army. Why? Because the librarian got nerfed. Well feth your librarian got nerf and instead you got scoring purifiers that got a better ability and all your vehicles have a 6++ if you cast their power, you must feel so screwed over. I'll just sit in a corner, playing my totally OP CSM.

I've been playing Orks since Rogue Trader and my friend has been playing them since 5th. For both of us, this new codex lacks anything that grabs us by the 'urtie bits and screams BUY ME!

Our favorite thing about playing orks was that our opponents never knew what to expect. Some days we'd roll eight battlewagons, others dozens of boys. Some days it'd be nothing but Dreads and Kans as far as da eye could see. We liked that most of our most awesome unit's powers ended with "... or it explodes." We gloried in the battles where our own weapons killed more of our troops than the enemy did.

We made it a point to try and use every unit in our codex at least a few times just to see if they could be made useful, so we had a pretty good idea of where we needed some beefing up.

So we were hoping for a lot of awesome variability and randomness, but would have settled for a competently executed set of rule fixes.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

We still lack any serious threat to AV14.
We still have vehicles that crumple if so much as glared at.
Flash gits still seem useless.
Zagstruk still seems useless.
Kommandos still lack the ability to leap out of the table edge and start stabbing.
Zogwort is gone.
Wazzdakka is gone.
Using (fill in unit) as troops is gone.
In their places are flyers which we technically already had and a $100 mecha and the option of maybe getting some of our missing characters back by spending more money on more books later.

Now, it does sound like tankbustas may actually be useful now, but that alone doesn't really make us want to run out and throw down a fistfull of cash. Especially since our group basically played 6th ed two times and sort of collectively went "Eh, f@#$ that" and hasn't played 40K in almost a year. My closest GW shop closed and my FLGs seems to mostly do WarmaHordes and MtG. I wanted a book that made me want to kick the doors down and go "DA ORKZ IS BACK!"

I agree 100% with Unistrut. No reason to spend more money.

DaPino wrote:
Not really because you have a lot of stuff you haven't actually tried out but that doesn't matter because they nerfed something you used before.

You don't see how people whose army has been nerfed might not be overjoyed at the suggestion that they have nothing to complain about because they can just buy different stuff?

 insaniak wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Not really because you have a lot of stuff you haven't actually tried out but that doesn't matter because they nerfed something you used before.

You don't see how people whose army has been nerfed might not be overjoyed at the suggestion that they have nothing to complain about because they can just buy different stuff?

I don't see that either, considering that the number of active posters on dakkadakka being able to play the codex right now is one. And I doubt anyone with a decent ork collection doesn't have at least one pain boy somewhere or the bits to build one within a couple of minutes. I just built a trio of meks with killsaws yesterday by taking a good look at my bits box.

Almost all my orks were purchased second hand, because after buying 6 other armies and starting with AoBR orks I wanted to be able to play. So my ork bits are extremely limited, despite having several thousand points of orks easy. Granted, about 600 points of that is WDW exclusive now... So lets try to avoid the "no true orksman" fallacy shall we?

Even without playing the book, we can look at things and understand that they are objectively worse.

The math has been run on Mob Rule, and aside from a few extremely specific situatoins (usually involving being in close combat), it is inarguably worse.

No invulnerable saves in Close Combat is completely, 100% indefensable.

KFF change is a wash to me. As a cover save it only applied to shooting, so the ++ save being only shooting isnt anything new. Being a ++ save is better than being a Cover save, IMO, thanks to the prevalance of Ignores Cover weapons and options. Being models instead of units was probably a necessary change given the switch to ++ instead of +c, but still feels like a huge nerf especially for Green Tide style lists.

Adding a chance to for Killa Kanz to be shaken? Why? Fluffy or not (I would argue not), was it really necessary? Were they that broken before? (Hint: the answer is no.) Its a nerf, plain as day. Oh but if I include an all but useless Deff Dread they're harder to shake! Whoopity do! Now I can waste another HS slot on a unit specifically to babysit my first unit so it can do its job! Its ludicrous.

Attack Squigs got nerfed. I mean, just think about that. Attack Squigs.

No FOC manipulation, for all those that ran Nobz or Deff Dreads as troops, is a nerf. "But you can use more FOCs or Unbound!" I honestly want to cross check the people suggesting using unbound against those that cried about it before 7th landed. I suspect there are a fair number of people who bitched about it before suddenly white knighting its use for Ork players.

Ramshackle nerfed. An AV10, open topped vehicle. How often do you think the new Ramshackle will matter? I can only speak from my experience, where no trukk Ive ever fielded has died to a single shot. Have they been exploded? Certainly, but theres usually so much overkill (since most basic weapons can glance the thing) that downgrading to a glance is basically meaningless. The trukk is still gone, my dudes are still boned.

Waagh plane nerfed. First off, let me say that Waagh Plane (or at least its concept) is the biggest missed opportunity in Ork history. GW had a golden opportunity and precedent for allowing different units to handle WAAAGH differently. Instead, they nerfed the one standout they had, making the Dakkajet hardly worth its points. Completely dropped the squig at the 1 yard line.

Shootas are a paid upgrade. Ork boyz were a good deal at 6ppm. One of the best troops values in the game, no doubt about that. As GW pushes a shooty game (because I think we can all agree that 7th still favors shooty armies), did they make our choppy boyz cheaper? Nope, instead they made it more expensive to go with the flow of the edition. Is it a MASSIVE nerf? No, it's 1 ppm. Is it another in a string of "WTF?" moments throughout the codex? You bet your squig it is.

Looted Wagons removed from the codex because even though GW might sell other model kits to Orks to loot, even a single dollar going to Chapterhouse (or any other company!) was just UNACCEPTABLE! Granted, I could just be bitter after Tyranids, but come on.

Exhaust Cloud nerfed. First we have some of the only bikes that DON'T grant a 3+ armor save, that's okay though because at least we get cover!

About that cover save...

Well we get Cybork bodies to save our nobz at least!

About that cybork body...

6+ FnP isnt quite 5++, but at least its a lot cheaper!

About the cost...

Honestly, the list of places where GW just stepped on their squig goes on and on. It's pathetic.

Did we get some buffs? Sure.

There are plenty of points drops, some great (rockets are almost entirely cheaper or free now) others not-so-great (lootas down 1ppm! *fingertwirl*).

Buggies can outflank and be in units of 5, which is neat, except they're still going to die to a stiff breeze. Or a light breeze. Look, no one pass gas near the AV10, open topped 2 HP models okay?

Orks certainly got the raw end of the deal. I'm at least fairly happy with the IG 'dex - despite the removal of some units which irritates me and missing a lot of blatantly obvious fixes. I feel for you with some of these changes. Even if you argued shaken kans was more realistic, at least buff them in other ways to counteract it.

Attack Squig: The difference between a single reroll to hit and +1 attack is negligible and only comes into play when you manage to hit with every attack, which is quite rare. Otherwise, so ling as you miss one attack you will end up with the same result. It's also in line with the other Squigs. This really is not an actual nerf, especially if the points dropped. If they did, it's actually a buff.

Exhaust Trail: Bikes can Jink, it's not like Snap Shots are that huge of a loss for Orks. And Flatput still grants a 3+. And Warbikers got cheaper at least.

Cyborg Bodies: Actually, cheap 6+ FNP is actually a buff anytime you'd be allowed an Armor or Cover Save. Otherwise, if they ignore your Cover and armor, it is a nerf. If you are allowed an Armor or Cover Save or even Invulnerable(KFF) it's a 20% increase in Survivability.


Not everything is as bad as it first looks. I'm not saying there are legitimate gripes, just some aren't as bad.

 Zagman wrote:
Attack Squig: The difference between a single reroll to hit and +1 attack is negligible and only comes into play when you manage to hit with every attack, which is quite rare. Otherwise, so ling as you miss one attack you will end up with the same result. It's also in line with the other Squigs. This really is not an actual nerf, especially if the points dropped. If they did, it's actually a buff.

Exhaust Trail: Bikes can Jink, it's not like Snap Shots are that huge of a loss for Orks. And Flatput still grants a 3+. And Warbikers got cheaper at least.

Cyborg Bodies: Actually, cheap 6+ FNP is actually a buff anytime you'd be allowed an Armor or Cover Save. Otherwise, if they ignore your Cover and armor, it is a nerf. If you are allowed an Armor or Cover Save or even Invulnerable(KFF) it's a 20% increase in Survivability.


Not everything is as bad as it first looks. I'm not saying there are legitimate gripes, just some aren't as bad.

1. Hitting stationary vehicles with all attacks isnt all that rare. Given that melee is how orks are practically forced to destroy heavy vehicles (and some light vehicles), it is still a nerf. Noticable on a warboss as wel.

2. Losing half our hits isnt a big deal? I mean, we hit rarely enough as it is. Flatout at 3+c is nice an all, but if over a 6 turn game how often am I flat-outing vs not? Far more turns are spent NOT moving flat out.

3. With the KFF no longer granting cover saves, the frequency of getting a save + FNP has dropped sharply. You also have to consider the models that could take Cybork in the first place: Nobz (not MANZ) and characters. Few of those models were getting to take their 4+ armor save in the first place. Characters might have a 2+ from MegaArmor, but if they did they're looking to get Powerfisted in the face. Basically the instance of getting a save is rare enough that the drop from 5++ to 6+ FNP is a nerf big enough to drive a Megasquiggoth through. In CC, you are almost entirely worse off with 6+ FnP than a 5++. Weapons easily wounding T5 orks tend to be big things: power fists, t.hammers, etc. Those go through our 2+ MA just as easily, and where we'd have a 5++ before, we're now hoping for 6+f. Not to mention force weapons (which we'll probably see more of, given psykers increased presence) will go through that FnP completely. ID weapons like D weapons? GG FnP!

Surprisingly, the "They made my list illegal and I have to buy stuff, so this codex sucks" approach does not apply to me. By some weird happenstance my army is 100% valid now (including my superheavy), and the nerf bat has been quite soft on it. I'm starting to wonder if GW has planted a hidden camera on my games room or something.

But still, I'm dissatisfied with the new codex.

Forget DLC or missing characters. The biggest offender here is the ork morale table. Along with some other small but important changes, that rule alone kills the spirit of the army as we knew it.

Let me explain: The way I see it, orks were fun to play with not because of random tables, but because they allowed a crazy, reckless approach to the game. If Eldar could be compared to a rapier and IG to a broadsword, orks were a set of brass knuckles. Orks were an army that actively rewarded you for being brash, direct and brutal. You could pull some demented counter-intuitiive and tactically unsound maneouver with them and still achieve victory or, at least, have fun pretending to be a bellowing megalomaniac.

Now, with Ork Morale, that cheerful recklesness is gone. Ork morale chastises you for bold head-on charges and makes being careful an imperative. The only units immune to its punishing effects are vehicles and a fair few tough infantry units. Boyz, once the backbone of our army, are relegated to last-minute objective grabbers.

but its so random just like orks! It allows to be cinematic and forge your own narrative!

Optimists playing 40k? Are you gaking me? I thought we agreed to lynch all these people long ago.

 Billagio wrote:
but its so random just like orks! It allows to be cinematic and forge your own narrative!

One thing I will give GW, I expected a LOT more random tables. Instead we stayed the same. (Losing Ramshackle but gaining Mob Rule). Guess they wouldnt let Kelly stick around all that long.

 streamdragon wrote:
1. Hitting stationary vehicles with all attacks isnt all that rare. Given that melee is how orks are practically forced to destroy heavy vehicles (and some light vehicles), it is still a nerf. Noticable on a warboss as wel.

Stationary vehicles are hit on 3+, the chance of all your warbosses attacks hitting is 13.2% So about one out of six times when hitting a vehicle or a unit with less WS, it was nerfed, yes.

2. Losing half our hits isnt a big deal? I mean, we hit rarely enough as it is. Flatout at 3+c is nice an all, but if over a 6 turn game how often am I flat-outing vs not? Far more turns are spent NOT moving flat out.

Math says that three twin-linked BS2 shots hit 1.67 times, three twin-linked BS1 shots hit 0.92 times. So the old warbikers killed 0.0666 MEQ per point, the new ones kill 0.0657 per point (1.43% less), with the option for three more bikers per mob, the ability to kill 45% more unless something actually shoots them with AP4 or better and a better cover save when turbo-boosting. Tell us how that's a nerf.

3. With the KFF no longer granting cover saves, the frequency of getting a save + FNP has dropped sharply.

How so? At least according to the BRB 5++ and 6+ FNP is strictly better than 5+ cover and 5++. Or are you implying that you'd get to use the KFF less often than when it was cover?

You also have to consider the models that could take Cybork in the first place: Nobz (not MANZ) and characters. Few of those models were getting to take their 4+ armor save in the first place.

Mostly because they were on a bike and had 4+ cover anyway. In close combat the most common occurrence of armor-ignoring close combat weapons were characters and Grey Knights. Nobz were always a bad choice to fight close combat specialists, since your 5++/FNP would hardly protect your 50+ point investment from being killed.

Characters might have a 2+ from MegaArmor, but if they did they're looking to get Powerfisted in the face.

Why would you put your warboss in CC with something wielding a powerfist? Why would someone put somebody in CC with a Warboss wielding a powerklaw?

Basically the instance of getting a save is rare enough that the drop from 5++ to 6+ FNP is a nerf big enough to drive a Megasquiggoth through. In CC, you are almost entirely worse off with 6+ FnP than a 5++. Weapons easily wounding T5 orks tend to be big things: power fists, t.hammers, etc. Those go through our 2+ MA just as easily, and where we'd have a 5++ before, we're now hoping for 6+f.

You do take a couple of additional wounds against regular characters, simply because 6+ is less than 5+, but it's not like you could expect to fight any of those things you named and live before because of cybork.

Not to mention force weapons (which we'll probably see more of, given psykers increased presence) will go through that FnP completely.

Unless you just accidentally roll a six or two of your DTW roll and then proceed to laugh manically while your warboss kicks your opponent's psyker's head in. Or you don't and roll your 2+ LoS!, just like before, rather than hoping for your 5++ save to succeed.

ID weapons like D weapons? GG FnP!

Yeah, because a unit of nobz was totally going to survive that knight charging them/the turbo-laser shooting them if they had a 5++ save.

The cybork save was a weak save that simply was bought because it was better than no save and cheap enough. It was no storm shield, not even an iron halo. For almost all intents and purposes it dropped by 1 point, and in case you're fighting rank and file soldiers it might have even increased your chances of survival. Yes, I would have liked to keep the 5++ save as well, but it's by no means worth the fuss you're making about it. More often than not, it's not going to make a difference.

The basic issue that I would present to you is this:

The Ork codex was weak. It needed buffing, badly, to bring the army back up to competitive levels. I don't know of any Ork player who has had all that much fun in 6th edition. The new codex thus had to be a strong improvement over the last one, especially in terms of making our units better able to reach combat and then win combat, which is (broadly speaking) what Ork players tend to prefer to do.

This book appears not to be a buff; it seems to be about the same, and includes a mixed bag of new units (the 'naut isn't so good, the guns are amazing but totally overpriced money wise) along with some stinging nerfs to things that Ork players regarded as the core of the army (Ramshackle, Mob Rule, etc). So when you hear complaining over the book, remember that it needed to bring improvements, and seems not to have. Perhaps the book does make the army better, but I suspect that many army styles will become substantially worse, sadly including my own Trukkrush tactics. Only time will tell, of course, but I am far from hopeful.

Another thing I've begun to consider is that Orks are purely designed to play Maelstrom missions. Or any mission with objectives, period. The army doesn't seem designed to be capable of flat out tabling other races. Which isn't always a bad thing in the end. My only gripe isn't so much with Orks as it is with my local store. A lot of asshats there won't play mission objectives when I go down to play because they know they can't play as much cheese and table me. They would much rather play an uninteresting game of 'oh! lets kill that next!' instead of 'Ok, I really need to get that objective or it could cost me the game...but how to go about it?'

With 7th bringing the tactical objectives segment to the game, I KNOW I'll be forcing more of it in the local area. Kill Points is fine and all, but most times, Ork players will lose those unless we play strictly counter cheese...which we don't have a whole lot of. (I'm looking at you Imperial Knights...biggest bs if I ever did see it...) I don't mind losing games. Though I do mind losing games that weren't fun from the time I put my models on the table, until the end. You KNOW just by looking at your opponent's force if your going to even remotely have a good time.

When GW want to balance a codex internally. Can they learn to buff the weak units up, not the good units down.

Melevolence wrote:
Another thing I've begun to consider is that Orks are purely designed to play Maelstrom missions. Or any mission with objectives, period. The army doesn't seem designed to be capable of flat out tabling other races. Which isn't always a bad thing in the end. My only gripe isn't so much with Orks as it is with my local store. A lot of asshats there won't play mission objectives when I go down to play because they know they can't play as much cheese and table me. They would much rather play an uninteresting game of 'oh! lets kill that next!' instead of 'Ok, I really need to get that objective or it could cost me the game...but how to go about it?'

With 7th bringing the tactical objectives segment to the game, I KNOW I'll be forcing more of it in the local area. Kill Points is fine and all, but most times, Ork players will lose those unless we play strictly counter cheese...which we don't have a whole lot of. (I'm looking at you Imperial Knights...biggest bs if I ever did see it...) I don't mind losing games. Though I do mind losing games that weren't fun from the time I put my models on the table, until the end. You KNOW just by looking at your opponent's force if your going to even remotely have a good time.

While I agree with your sentiment, even Maelstrom of War missions result in a loss if you get tabled.

 streamdragon wrote:

Melevolence wrote:
Another thing I've begun to consider is that Orks are purely designed to play Maelstrom missions. Or any mission with objectives, period. The army doesn't seem designed to be capable of flat out tabling other races. Which isn't always a bad thing in the end. My only gripe isn't so much with Orks as it is with my local store. A lot of asshats there won't play mission objectives when I go down to play because they know they can't play as much cheese and table me. They would much rather play an uninteresting game of 'oh! lets kill that next!' instead of 'Ok, I really need to get that objective or it could cost me the game...but how to go about it?'

With 7th bringing the tactical objectives segment to the game, I KNOW I'll be forcing more of it in the local area. Kill Points is fine and all, but most times, Ork players will lose those unless we play strictly counter cheese...which we don't have a whole lot of. (I'm looking at you Imperial Knights...biggest bs if I ever did see it...) I don't mind losing games. Though I do mind losing games that weren't fun from the time I put my models on the table, until the end. You KNOW just by looking at your opponent's force if your going to even remotely have a good time.

While I agree with your sentiment, even Maelstrom of War missions result in a loss if you get tabled.

That's true. But it forces both sides to be even more strategic. Instead of throwing my Boyz out into the open to make a mad dash for cover as they inch across the board in an attempt to get within firing range or charge range. With these missions, it will often force your opponent out of their comfort zone. Force them to come to you if they want to capture that objective and win points. They will be harder pressed to table me when I'm hunkering down on objectives.

Edit: It also forces people to play different lists. Instead of a 'shooting fish in a barrel' list, they need to actually bring things to allow them to contest. They won't be outnumbering my troop numbers thats for sure.

But... it doesn't. If my force is built around tabling you, I don't care what the mission is or what objectives I draw. I'm ignoring them all in favor of trying to table you.

Edit: don't get me wrong, I'm really looking forward to trying out Maelstrom of War missions, even have the Objective deck ready to go. I'm just not sure how mission type changes your aforementioned issue with your club's members just playing to table people.

 streamdragon wrote:
But... it doesn't. If my force is built around tabling you, I don't care what the mission is or what objectives I draw. I'm ignoring them all in favor of trying to table you.

Edit: don't get me wrong, I'm really looking forward to trying out Maelstrom of War missions, even have the Objective deck ready to go. I'm just not sure how mission type changes your aforementioned issue with your club's members just playing to table people.

This is what i feel kills the mood of any game. Playing merely to eliminate everything. It's boring as gak. Step out of your comfort zone and play something interesting instead of 'kill everything' lists.

Edit: In the end, I can still win. I'll probably win actually, because I'm playing differently than I would be before. While they play their same'copy & paste' list, I'll be playing far more defensivly than before. My odds of not getting tabled increase much more than me just throwing Boyz into fans because that is literally all that the game is. Kill Point games I refuse to play at my venue.

Melevolence wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
But... it doesn't. If my force is built around tabling you, I don't care what the mission is or what objectives I draw. I'm ignoring them all in favor of trying to table you.

Edit: don't get me wrong, I'm really looking forward to trying out Maelstrom of War missions, even have the Objective deck ready to go. I'm just not sure how mission type changes your aforementioned issue with your club's members just playing to table people.

This is what i feel kills the mood of any game. Playing merely to eliminate everything. It's boring as gak. Step out of your comfort zone and play something interesting instead of 'kill everything' lists.

Agree 100%. I honestly wish 7th hadn't included the "Wipe the board and win" condition, especially for Maelstrom of War.

Then again, I'm a sucker for "heroic sacrifice" narratives, so the idea of an army seizing those objectives no matter the cost to themselves is appealing to me. That's a narrative I can't really forge when "LOL turn 6 I wiped you from the table even though you're up 10VP I win!" is still a thing.

DANGIT GW! HOW WILL I FORGE MY NARRATIVES?!

 streamdragon wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
But... it doesn't. If my force is built around tabling you, I don't care what the mission is or what objectives I draw. I'm ignoring them all in favor of trying to table you.

Edit: don't get me wrong, I'm really looking forward to trying out Maelstrom of War missions, even have the Objective deck ready to go. I'm just not sure how mission type changes your aforementioned issue with your club's members just playing to table people.

This is what i feel kills the mood of any game. Playing merely to eliminate everything. It's boring as gak. Step out of your comfort zone and play something interesting instead of 'kill everything' lists.

Agree 100%. I honestly wish 7th hadn't included the "Wipe the board and win" condition, especially for Maelstrom of War.

Then again, I'm a sucker for "heroic sacrifice" narratives, so the idea of an army seizing those objectives no matter the cost to themselves is appealing to me. That's a narrative I can't really forge when "LOL turn 6 I wiped you from the table even though you're up 10VP I win!" is still a thing.

DANGIT GW! HOW WILL I FORGE MY NARRATIVES?!

*shrug* It's pretty stupid that's for damn sure. Aw well. Depending on how 7th changes up the game play of the locals, I may end up giving up on Warhammer for a long time. I only have the one venue, and the guys themselves aren't overall bad guys. They just play a game in the most obnoxious manner ever.

I find it ironic that many of the people who constantly post negative threads attacking GW for lack of balance, are the same who then attack GW for not giving them an auto-win codex. You need to realise you can't have it both ways.

I've read through a lot of the posts about the codex and it appears to me that the majority of those who are all about fluff are happy with the codex, but the "I'm not having fun unless I'm winning" crowd seem negative.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I find it ironic that many of the people who constantly post negative threads attacking GW for lack of balance, are the same who then attack GW for not giving them an auto-win codex. You need to realise you can't have it both ways.

I've read through a lot of the posts about the codex and it appears to me that the majority of those who are all about fluff are happy with the codex, but the "I'm not having fun unless I'm winning" crowd seem negative.

Please find me one post that demands winning, instead of being balanced. Please, I'll wait.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I find it ironic that many of the people who constantly post negative threads attacking GW for lack of balance, are the same who then attack GW for not giving them an auto-win codex. You need to realise you can't have it both ways.

I've read through a lot of the posts about the codex and it appears to me that the majority of those who are all about fluff are happy with the codex, but the "I'm not having fun unless I'm winning" crowd seem negative.

Were not asking for an auto win, but with some of these changes it can turn out to an auto lose vs eldar/tau and the like very fast. This codex from what we can tell so far is not balanced at all.

Whaddaya mean Wazdakka is dropped?!?? I see him right here

Good God. Some of you have mentioned Ramshackle. I had forgotten about it. Really, the re-write of that rule is really illustrative of the processes behind the creation of a Codex. Here's how I imagine it.

Nottingham, United Kingdom. Rain drums on the roofs of the Games Workshop's fortress-monastery. There, in the candle-lit darkness of his cell, a lowly acolyte works on the final details of what will become the company's latest Codex. Suddenly, the scribe rises from his workstation and reaches for his senior...

- Sire! I've found that this rule is worded according to an obsolete edition of the game and contradicts existing rules! Perhaps it should be reworked or removed. What is your say, my honored master?

Codex: Orks.
- Um... Rewrite it as follows: Roll a D6. On a result of 6, treat that penetrating hit as a glancing hit instead.
- But Sire! It's an ork vehicle! It only has 10AV and 2HP!
- So what?
- With all due respect, Sire, won't Ork players think it's... useless?
- Ork Players? Ha! Ork players you say! You've got a lot to learn, my young protegee... Of all 40k players, ork collectors are the ones only one step short of bobbing incessantly while chanting na-na-na to themselves as they play with their own fecal matters. Don't you read their BBSs and mailing lists on that thing called "internet"? Whatever we sell them, they'll buy it! And they'll thank us for it! It's easier than selling cocaine-coated candy to hyperactive children!
- But Sir... I play Orks...
- Precisely...

Codex: Imperial Guard
- Um... Erase the rule...
- Understood, sire.
- Wait. What vehicle did you say it was for?
- The Leman Russ, sire.
- Oh. Then rewrite it as follows: Roll a D3. On a result of 4-6, resolve the penetrating hit as normal. On a result of 1-3, in addition to any damage caused by the penetrating hit, the Leman Russ is unable to move and shoot for the duration of the game. Oh, and change the rule's name to "expensive paperweight".
- Uh... Ok, sire.
- That will teach them.

Codex: Space Marines.
- Um... Rewrite it as follows: Roll a D6. On a result of 1-2, the penetrating hit is treated as a glancing hit. On a result of 3-6, the blessed nanochromatic psychoreactors from the Dark Age of Technology coating the vehicle's hull absorb the incoming projectile and transform it into additional armor. Restore 1 lost Hull point.
- Sounds fair...
- Brofist for the Emperor?
- Brofist.

Codex: Tyranids.
- Ugh... I have a massive headache today, did you know?
- But sire...
- Oh, take this book, read pages 30 to 36 and pick whatever you want. And please, don't bother...
- But sire, this book...
- What.
- It's a WHFB army book.
- So?
- Chaos Dwarves. Written in 1997. We don't do that army anymore...
- Even better.
- And it's in German!
- We don't pay you for this, remember?

Codex: Eldar.
- Ok, rewrite it as follows: Roll a D6. On a 1, treat the penetrating hit as a glancing hit instead. The enemy unit that fired the shot receives an instant S: D hit. On a result of 2-6, divide your age by the strenght of the impacting weapon and place the resulting number (rounding up) of Apocalyptic mega-blast templates on the board. Enemy units suffer an instant 2D6 S: D hits. Friendly units caught in the blast get eternal warrior, fearless, armorbane and fleshbane for the duration of the game.
- Sire, your rules-writing genius never ceases to amaze me.
- I know, lad, I know...

Codex: Chaos Daemons.
- Um... Wait... *looks at sales figures for Chaos Daemons*
- Sir?
- Oh. Ok. Rewrite as follows: Roll a... nah, nevermind. The impacted vehicle gets sucked by the warp and transforms into THE MEGA-KAIJU-DAEMON HIS INFERNAL HIGHNESS LORD BEEZLEBUB SATAN, REPRESENTED BY A PILE OF CHAOS DAEMON MINIATURES GLUED TOGETHER IN THE SHAPE OF A SIX-FEET-TALL MALE GOAT STANDING UPRIGHT ON HIS REAR QUARTERS! HE SHALL OVERTHROW THE MIGHTY AND LAY WASTE TO THEIR TEMPLES! HAIL SATAN!!!!
- But... S...Sire...
- Yes. Yes. I know. We can't say "Satan". That Pope guy has it trademark'd. Fething Pope...

Oh god, that eldar one!

Outside of the game rules and balance aspect, there have been several things that have bugged me.

'ere We Go: Why rename the old weirdboy power, and then give the name to a new unrelated rule?
Same with changing Zzap to a new bland generic name (Although it got a buff overall, it's weaker vs high AV. Did they really have to remove the one tihng in the codex that had melta? ).
No new rules for Badrukk or Zagstrukk to reflect their fluff or make them unique named HQs. They are basically just copy/pasted from their old rules as unit leaders.
Why on earth do Killa Kanz have to take morale checks, and why on earth does a Deff Dread now act like a pseudo runtherder?


The new dataslate/unit per page thing they have going on in the codex. It simply looks cheap and massively changes the feel of the codex compared to every single codex previously released. It basically looks like a catalog.

All the new codexes will be getting dataslates. I dont mind having everything on one page but I wish they would have kept using art instead of pics of the models. I know what the models look like, I want to see what they "really" look like!

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I find it ironic that many of the people who constantly post negative threads attacking GW for lack of balance, are the same who then attack GW for not giving them an auto-win codex. You need to realise you can't have it both ways.

I've read through a lot of the posts about the codex and it appears to me that the majority of those who are all about fluff are happy with the codex, but the "I'm not having fun unless I'm winning" crowd seem negative.

There's two big issues here:

1. While the codex has better internal balance, the point used was towards the lower end of the 4th Ed codex. This means the terrible stuff was raised to being merely bad, and the stuff that was sub-par compared to the other new books was nerfed. Internal balance is closer to being achieved, directly at the expense of external balance. It's like if CSM was rebalanced around the Khorne berserker.

2. The stuff that was nerfed was nerfed in bizarre ways. New mob rule, battle wagons and trukks of death, shoota boyz now cost 75% more than termagants, Cybork was both changed to something the painboy negates and removed from units, the attack squig was nerfed and then made obviously inferior to the lucky stikk, Kanz now have to take morale checks, etc. You even see this in the newly "buffed" units, like Flashgitz losing 'eavy armour and upgrades, or Stormboyz taking the nerf to their rokkit packs that forces them all to take dangerous terrain tests.

I, for one, am excited with most changes. The few that bother me;

-Codex supplement being in the special edition bothers me. Especially since I've already preordered book.

-I'm uneasy about the loss of cybork. If I tried to see the change in a good light I might go with "since they changed the kff to ++ maybe they changed cybork to FnP to prevent overlap nd maybe thought it was too strong at 5+. I mean, its edition dakka we want more defensive rolls." Its a stretch, especially if FnP didnt get cheaper.

-FoC manipulation is gone. GW wants to force us to love multiple CAD.. time to find people that are with the new edition.

I'd like to think of it as moving the goalposts OP.

I mean, for the Chaos Codex we got:

-our marks back (How could people forget how bad icons were?)
-Veterans of the Long War to represent legionairies
-Cultists
-Non-generic daemon weapons
-Daemon engines which represent the Iron Warriors pretty well
-Noise Marines are now usable
-A really cool and fluffy Champions of Chaos rule. It doesn't fit every warband down to a tee, but the chance of a champion being rewarded with becoming a Daemon Prince (Or cursed with Spawnhood) was a brilliant idea.
-Daemon Princes are now more powerful. They should never have been as cheap and weak as the previous codex displayed them.
-Bikers are horribly over-costed anymore. Seriously, they were insanely over-priced.
- No more generic Daemon, as we can now ally with the full Daemon army.

And I'm sure that there are plenty of other points I could think up of if I had the book with me right now.

My point is that we were given a lot in the Chaos codex, but people only ever focus on the negatives. And the internet is an echo chamber for negativity.

They could have perfected the new Ork codex in every aspect, but the internet would find SOMETHING to complain about. Whether it be that the Ork codex is too strong, or too weak, they'd find something.

I wanted to have an opportunity to ignore challenge system. Or at least some HQ that wouldn't melt to any random beatstick before striking.

The opportunity is called "Mek" and can be bought for a hand full of points in addition to any HQ you have bought. Push him in front of the beat-stick bellowing the challenge, kill his unit with your warboss, run him down.

Also note the changes in the challenge mechanic in 7th. When Abbadon decides to charge your warbosses mob on his own, nothing prevents the boyz, the warboss and whoever else is present from just clobbering him to death while he is forced to allocate his wounds to your nob first.

That's probably gona work. If they don't cost too much and ain't sniped out. They're still having 6+ armor and 25+ pts price iirc.

a fat guy wrote:
I'd like to think of it as moving the goalposts OP.

I mean, for the Chaos Codex we got:

-our marks back (How could people forget how bad icons were?)
-Veterans of the Long War to represent legionairies
-Cultists
-Non-generic daemon weapons
-Daemon engines which represent the Iron Warriors pretty well
-Noise Marines are now usable
-A really cool and fluffy Champions of Chaos rule. It doesn't fit every warband down to a tee, but the chance of a champion being rewarded with becoming a Daemon Prince (Or cursed with Spawnhood) was a brilliant idea.
-Daemon Princes are now more powerful. They should never have been as cheap and weak as the previous codex displayed them.
-Bikers are horribly over-costed anymore. Seriously, they were insanely over-priced.
- No more generic Daemon, as we can now ally with the full Daemon army.

And I'm sure that there are plenty of other points I could think up of if I had the book with me right now.

My point is that we were given a lot in the Chaos codex, but people only ever focus on the negatives. And the internet is an echo chamber for negativity.

They could have perfected the new Ork codex in every aspect, but the internet would find SOMETHING to complain about. Whether it be that the Ork codex is too strong, or too weak, they'd find something.

Marks are better then Icon's, but as a whole are overcosted
VOTLW is practically useless in both cost and use
Cultists
And yet I'd still rather have blissgiver then only one for Undivded and Khorne.
Nobody asked for these types of Daemon Engines, Forgeworld does good ones and showed which ones people would buy, and they also nerfed the heck out of the existing one.
Noise marines are indeed usable.
Champions of Chaos is Absolutely Horrible, even the one presented in Warriors of Chaos is far better, and the forced challenges is bad.
Daemon Princes used to be stronger in the old dex, and far cheaper. Everyone took at least one all the time with wings and kitted them out with warptime and they beat face in combat, and with Eternal Warrior.
Bikes got fixed yeah.
Yay for alliance with a better codex.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

a fat guy wrote:
I'd like to think of it as moving the goalposts OP.

I mean, for the Chaos Codex we got:

-our marks back (How could people forget how bad icons were?)
-Veterans of the Long War to represent legionairies
-Cultists
-Non-generic daemon weapons
-Daemon engines which represent the Iron Warriors pretty well
-Noise Marines are now usable
-A really cool and fluffy Champions of Chaos rule. It doesn't fit every warband down to a tee, but the chance of a champion being rewarded with becoming a Daemon Prince (Or cursed with Spawnhood) was a brilliant idea.
-Daemon Princes are now more powerful. They should never have been as cheap and weak as the previous codex displayed them.
-Bikers are horribly over-costed anymore. Seriously, they were insanely over-priced.
- No more generic Daemon, as we can now ally with the full Daemon army.

And I'm sure that there are plenty of other points I could think up of if I had the book with me right now.

My point is that we were given a lot in the Chaos codex, but people only ever focus on the negatives. And the internet is an echo chamber for negativity.

They could have perfected the new Ork codex in every aspect, but the internet would find SOMETHING to complain about. Whether it be that the Ork codex is too strong, or too weak, they'd find something.

Marks are better then Icon's, but as a whole are overcosted
VOTLW is practically useless in both cost and use
Cultists
And yet I'd still rather have blissgiver then only one for Undivded and Khorne.
Nobody asked for these types of Daemon Engines, Forgeworld does good ones and showed which ones people would buy, and they also nerfed the heck out of the existing one.
Noise marines are indeed usable.
Champions of Chaos is Absolutely Horrible, even the one presented in Warriors of Chaos is far better, and the forced challenges is bad.
Daemon Princes used to be stronger in the old dex, and far cheaper. Everyone took at least one all the time with wings and kitted them out with warptime and they beat face in combat, and with Eternal Warrior.
Bikes got fixed yeah.
Yay for alliance with a better codex.

Instead of being snarky towards me, you could have have actually tried to contribute to the discussion.

Nevertheless, if you want to drag me down to your level:

-Points cost has nothing to do with this. Over time, most units will become overcosted as the metagame evolves. My point is that once upon a time, we didn't have marks, we only had icons, which were absolutely terrible at representing devotion to a god.
-It doesn't matter how effective it is or how much it costs, what matters is that you can use them to represent legionaries. Again, you missed the point.
-Cultists haven't been a part of the chaos army for several codexes, yet they've always been in the fluff. I'm not sure if you're trying to say that's a bad thing, since your attempt at being a smartass is making it difficult to understand exactly what you're trying to say.
-That's entirely personal preference. I'm sure that there's a Khorne fan out there that doesn't give a whit about Slaanesh Daemon Weapons too. If each of the gods had their own weapons, the artefacts section would be nothing but close combat weapons (i.e. boring).
-Nobody had to. GW just wanted to give us more toys to play with, like they do with every release.
-Good stuff.
-Yes, everything is terrible and you hate it. I get the idea. Even if transforming into a Daemon Prince in the middle of battle has never been represented on the tabletop until now, despite it being in the fluff too. Admittedly, a more reasonable approach would have been characters with a Mark of Chaos only get it (Since undivided isn't a thing anymore).
-They had eternal warrior. They now have different upgrade for the gods and stat increases. The only downside is the lack of eternal warrior, which they can get from the Black Legion supplement. They should never have been that cheap either, since they're meant to be very rare. They should also be stronger, in my opinion, and cost more points.
-Glad we agree.
-Would you have preferred no Daemon Codex and to only have generic Greater Daemons? Or to have both codexes, but not be able to ally them? The current situation isn't perfect, but your attitude is trying my patience so I'm reluctant to agree with you on just about anything.

 Jidmah wrote:
The opportunity is called "Mek" and can be bought for a hand full of points in addition to any HQ you have bought. Push him in front of the beat-stick bellowing the challenge, kill his unit with your warboss, run him down.

Also note the changes in the challenge mechanic in 7th. When Abbadon decides to charge your warbosses mob on his own, nothing prevents the boyz, the warboss and whoever else is present from just clobbering him to death while he is forced to allocate his wounds to your nob first.

Don't challenge wounds overflow into the squad also now? So the MekBoy is only soaking up 1 wound. Better off throwing the unit nob under the bus, assuming your unit has/can take one.

Yeah they do. It still allows your warboss/nob to simply kill a bunch of space marine bikers without taking damage, rather than getting a burning blade shoved town their throats and being to forced to punch the chaptermaster's relic shield.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The opportunity is called "Mek" and can be bought for a hand full of points in addition to any HQ you have bought. Push him in front of the beat-stick bellowing the challenge, kill his unit with your warboss, run him down.

Also note the changes in the challenge mechanic in 7th. When Abbadon decides to charge your warbosses mob on his own, nothing prevents the boyz, the warboss and whoever else is present from just clobbering him to death while he is forced to allocate his wounds to your nob first.

Don't challenge wounds overflow into the squad also now? So the MekBoy is only soaking up 1 wound. Better off throwing the unit nob under the bus, assuming your unit has/can take one.

Yes, but the point is that the warboss ISNT taking them first, after the mek - unless he is the only other model in b2b - so can avoid challenges and wreck face.

Noone has yet gotten a challenge avoiding item, I'm not sure why Orks would get one. Given their hierarchy essentially involves a series of challenges to find the biggest, strongest ork to lead Im not sure avoiding challenges would be that..orky. To me, at least.

Jidmah wrote:Yeah they do. It still allows your warboss/nob to simply kill a bunch of space marine bikers without taking damage, rather than getting a burning blade shoved town their throats and being to forced to punch the chaptermaster's relic shield.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, but the point is that the warboss ISNT taking them first, after the mek - unless he is the only other model in b2b - so can avoid challenges and wreck face.

Noone has yet gotten a challenge avoiding item, I'm not sure why Orks would get one. Given their hierarchy essentially involves a series of challenges to find the biggest, strongest ork to lead Im not sure avoiding challenges would be that..orky. To me, at least.

Yeah, I get that. I was just suggesting throwing the Nob under the bus since he'll have 2W instead of just 1W for the Mek. Just in case your Warboss is next in line to get faced.

Still pile in in order of I right? So unless the CM is alone, good chance your warboss is moving closer? And I'll leave avoiding challenges to my skaven, I agree Orks avoiding challenges just doesn't fit.

Yeah, but if your warbosss has a Klaw, then hes moving after everyone else, given you now have stikkbombs for free and therefore makes the I2 on Orks relevant again

a fat guy wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

a fat guy wrote:
I'd like to think of it as moving the goalposts OP.

I mean, for the Chaos Codex we got:

-our marks back (How could people forget how bad icons were?)
-Veterans of the Long War to represent legionairies
-Cultists
-Non-generic daemon weapons
-Daemon engines which represent the Iron Warriors pretty well
-Noise Marines are now usable
-A really cool and fluffy Champions of Chaos rule. It doesn't fit every warband down to a tee, but the chance of a champion being rewarded with becoming a Daemon Prince (Or cursed with Spawnhood) was a brilliant idea.
-Daemon Princes are now more powerful. They should never have been as cheap and weak as the previous codex displayed them.
-Bikers are horribly over-costed anymore. Seriously, they were insanely over-priced.
- No more generic Daemon, as we can now ally with the full Daemon army.

And I'm sure that there are plenty of other points I could think up of if I had the book with me right now.

My point is that we were given a lot in the Chaos codex, but people only ever focus on the negatives. And the internet is an echo chamber for negativity.

They could have perfected the new Ork codex in every aspect, but the internet would find SOMETHING to complain about. Whether it be that the Ork codex is too strong, or too weak, they'd find something.

Marks are better then Icon's, but as a whole are overcosted
VOTLW is practically useless in both cost and use
Cultists
And yet I'd still rather have blissgiver then only one for Undivded and Khorne.
Nobody asked for these types of Daemon Engines, Forgeworld does good ones and showed which ones people would buy, and they also nerfed the heck out of the existing one.
Noise marines are indeed usable.
Champions of Chaos is Absolutely Horrible, even the one presented in Warriors of Chaos is far better, and the forced challenges is bad.
Daemon Princes used to be stronger in the old dex, and far cheaper. Everyone took at least one all the time with wings and kitted them out with warptime and they beat face in combat, and with Eternal Warrior.
Bikes got fixed yeah.
Yay for alliance with a better codex.

Instead of being snarky towards me, you could have have actually tried to contribute to the discussion.

Nevertheless, if you want to drag me down to your level:

Ah yes, so your just going to insult me for pointing out the flaws in the things you brought to light as a good thing? Well whatever makes you feel better.

As for such:

-Points cost has nothing to do with this. Over time, most units will become overcosted as the metagame evolves. My point is that once upon a time, we didn't have marks, we only had icons, which were absolutely terrible at representing devotion to a god.

Yes, and as a result they've made several marks far more worthless, such as Khorne, and Tzeentch, and this was upon their release. I'm not fighting the fact that the flag based devotion was horrible, but it was badly implemented.

-It doesn't matter how effective it is or how much it costs, what matters is that you can use them to represent legionaries. Again, you missed the point.

I'm sorry, how does a reroll in combat represent legionaries, I didn't know Rubrics were so good at close combat, nor those who fought as havocs. It does not represent them in any meaningful way, is both mechanically and a fluff based failure.

-Cultists haven't been a part of the chaos army for several codexes, yet they've always been in the fluff. I'm not sure if you're trying to say that's a bad thing, since your attempt at being a smartass is making it difficult to understand exactly what you're trying to say.

Man you are just one insulting poster aren't you? I didn't comment on them because I'm neutral to them, they are a good addition to the codex and I had nothing really to say on them. Though I'd love for more options.

-That's entirely personal preference. I'm sure that there's a Khorne fan out there that doesn't give a whit about Slaanesh Daemon Weapons too. If each of the gods had their own weapons, the artefacts section would be nothing but close combat weapons (i.e. boring).

Because they and you are a bit unimaginative, there's various based melee and magical daemonic weaponry, Khorne has Autocannons and Heavy bolters enchanted so they cause the enemy to bleed through, Tzeentch weaponry could easily cast bolts of flame or various colors of flame, Slaanesh could have blades that twist and writhe in the air as they seperate into links like a chain, and Nurgle has weapons filled with flies and beasts that could spread the plague from afar, all the while still being effective in combat.

-Nobody had to. GW just wanted to give us more toys to play with, like they do with every release.

The modelers make models and the codex writers are forced to shove them in somehow, so I suppose so.

-Yes, everything is terrible and you hate it. I get the idea. Even if transforming into a Daemon Prince in the middle of battle has never been represented on the tabletop until now, despite it being in the fluff too. Admittedly, a more reasonable approach would have been characters with a Mark of Chaos only get it (Since undivided isn't a thing anymore).

My you are just so insulting, but I pointed out the issues behind it, however one of the things behind it in fantasy is willpower, if you got a spawn or DP, you take a LD test to either avoid a spawned fate (but become slightly more crippled), or a LD test to become a Prince (if you fail you still are quite legendary), however becoming a DP should not be CRIPPLING, losing their entire gear and gaining nothing for it actually makes them on average far worse should your chaos lord or Kharn becomes a Daemon Prince, it's just so poorly mechanically implemented that it harms it as a whole, and not to mention you don't just see the average cultist kill one sarge and become a Prince out at random, chaos isn't that filled with DP's!

-They had eternal warrior. They now have different upgrade for the gods and stat increases. The only downside is the lack of eternal warrior, which they can get from the Black Legion supplement. They should never have been that cheap either, since they're meant to be very rare. They should also be stronger, in my opinion, and cost more points.

So random DP's are fine, but leaders are bad? And if they cost even more they would be useless, as it is the only worthwhile build is the flying Black Mace build as the others are useless.

-Would you have preferred no Daemon Codex and to only have generic Greater Daemons? Or to have both codexes, but not be able to ally them? The current situation isn't perfect, but your attitude is trying my patience so I'm reluctant to agree with you on just about anything.

You're the one being quite insulting , and as I said, it's an alliance with the better codex, which I fear we will lose when GW feels like removing allies again.

I play Kult of Speed, mostly warbikes. I just wanted a few more options for a mobile army. Maybe some fun rules and new models for buggies and deffkoptas. I loved that list more than any other army I have played since 2nd, and GW ruined it with a bland and committee-designed book.

Instead my existing army got nerfed badly and my HQ was removed. The bosspoles that I used to use to reroll LD tests now let me reroll on a table where the "good" result is d6 hits, and most of the time my warbikes will be too small to pass Mob Rule. The only positive change was that some models got cheaper, but only in points. The only real new options in the book have horrible, boring, and unexplainable rules. The second army I played got screwed the changes to deffrollas and red paint. There are very few upgrades in the book that I would consider now.

What they did with this book is to achieve internal balance by nerfing everything that was strong and making a few bad units average. Then they slashed point costs without cutting the real prices. So the army may still be competitive, but if you can't accept what GW is doing from a business perspective then you are a sucker or a shill.

Very disappointed with this release. Enough that I am quitting 40k at least until they do something to fix it.

khanaris wrote:
I play Kult of Speed, mostly warbikes. I just wanted a few more options for a mobile army. Maybe some fun rules and new models for buggies and deffkoptas. I loved that list more than any other army I have played since 2nd, and GW ruined it with a bland and committee-designed book.

Instead my existing army got nerfed badly and my HQ was removed. The bosspoles that I used to use to reroll LD tests now let me reroll on a table where the "good" result is d6 hits, and most of the time my warbikes will be too small to pass Mob Rule. The only positive change was that some models got cheaper, but only in points. The only real new options in the book have horrible, boring, and unexplainable rules. The second army I played got screwed the changes to deffrollas and red paint. There are very few upgrades in the book that I would consider now.

What they did with this book is to achieve internal balance by nerfing everything that was strong and making a few bad units average. Then they slashed point costs without cutting the real prices. So the army may still be competitive, but if you can't accept what GW is doing from a business perspective then you are a sucker or a shill.

Very disappointed with this release. Enough that I am quitting 40k at least until they do something to fix it.

I was a little disappointed in some of the changes, but I've gotten over the sour grapes. Losing Wazzy sucked because he was just a boatload of fun to play and was fun to create, but I feel my mini KoS is still effective. And with everything scoring now, he isn't needed as much for FoC manipulation.I still find bikers to be ridiculously effective. They dropped in cost and increased squad size, so we get MORE bikes than we did before. Though they lost their default 4+ cover, it doesn't matter too much since we can just Jink and get the 4+ anyway (Really good if we happen to go second so we can dodge some gunfire). And when they DO move, we get a +1 to cover when we Turbo Boost, giving us a 3+ when we jink, meaning we actually can (theoretically) survive better than before. Then again, they still have the weakness of any 'ignores cover' weapons/units your foe might have. In which case, the bikes are equally as effective as before...just cheaper.

Nob Biker deathstars are a little less viable of course since we lost Cybork goodness (Which I won't lie, I was upset about). Though they can still get the FNP with a Painbiker, and even a 5+ invul if you really wanna tag along a Mek-Biker. So, the meta changed a little, but that's what happens in ANY game. Change isn't always bad. And now we can use our points on cheaper Bikers, bring more of them, or bring other toys.

My beloved Deffkopters got CHEAPER. I loved these things to begin with, and now I can run them with lesser constraints. Even their much coveted TL Rokkits became a free upgrade, making them again...much cheaper on top of their initial point discount. I can't remember how many times these things saved my hide, and now I can play them more often when I need to be sneaky as opposed to pure fast.

Trukks are still bitter sweet for me. The explosions with the new Mob Rule have me worried. Will it stop me from running Trukks at all? Probably not. But I might be sending the more durable units in the more squishy vehicle, and vice versa. Just a minor change. *shrug*

I wouldn't quit the game until you play some games with the new rules, or if your that adamant in not using it, just stick with your 6th edition Codex. I doubt many peopl will refuse to play you with the same book they just played against the other day. I've played a handful of games with the new dex, and I've no real complaints thus far.

I, for one, am happy with almost all of the changes. Feels like a true horde army and assault seems more capable with the right quantities.

The removal of the rules for models they don't make kits for is dissappointing. And crying about some nerfs is the same as being happy about some buffs.

I really like the new codex. Heck the mob rule has saved me more than hurt me I love it.

I think the only thing I would have liked to see is a new gun option on the meganobz. Like a big shoota or a supa shoota. I play shooty orks, so just having assault weapons on the mega nobz makes the snp useless unless you stick a mega character with a unit.

other than that codex is great.

apparently getting buffs almost unanimously across the board and having every single unit in the codex be viable if not downright competitive with supplements that make this codex upper tier at worst isnt enough,

cause we lost the cheapest 5++ saves and a couple named chars with no models.


nothing will stop the QQ, even a great codex will cause the whiners to whine the internets for all eternaty

 easysauce wrote:
apparently getting buffs almost unanimously across the board and having every single unit in the codex be viable if not downright competitive with supplements that make this codex upper tier at worst isnt enough,

cause we lost the cheapest 5++ saves and a couple named chars with no models.


nothing will stop the QQ, even a great codex will cause the whiners to whine the internets for all eternaty

As an outsider just following along, I think the serious complaints were more about loss of flavor, uniqueness and fun.
Though some were indeed saying that the dex lost power, but I don't know who's right or wrong in that, though it appears to me to have been buffed a little bit.

I got what I wanted, mostly. What didn't happen :

- Better walkers
- Elite Flash Gitz
- Fun psychic powers (the ork ones are lame and demonology kills you)
- Some supergod close combat stuff for Warbosses

So, mostly no complaints.

I get the impression that the hordes type player is enjoying the codex far more than me and speed freaks type players. Losing nobs, and bkiers to keep up with our fast army really hurts. And the boss pole is just no help when you start with so piddly an amount of boys. Ramshackle used to be super useful, now it does nothing. in 8 games, not once has it been rolled. Moving lootas to heavy support means my looted wagons and battlewagons are too crowded. And even worse, deff rollas have been nerfed to utter worthlessness. Nobody is going to death or glory.

If you weren't a fan of 100 boyz on the board, with painboys and 2 hour movement phases with difficult terrain every turn because you take up half the board, its pretty crappy.

Dunno, my speed freeks at least got a lot better with better warbikers, blitza-bommas and the ability to have a lot of 4+ saves.

 easysauce wrote:
apparently getting buffs almost unanimously across the board and having every single unit in the codex be viable if not downright competitive with supplements that make this codex upper tier at worst isnt enough,

cause we lost the cheapest 5++ saves and a couple named chars with no models.


nothing will stop the QQ, even a great codex will cause the whiners to whine the internets for all eternaty

I'm not sure where unanimous cheap buffs are coming from in this codex.

Most things got better. THe codex lost a little flexibility due to the removal of slot swapping, but nothing serious.

I like it.

Here's what I'm seeing: the new codex is pretty well-liked by people who actually PLAY Orks, whereas the people who are angry are theoryhammerers who either don't play Orks or don't play 40K at all. So basically if someone is really coming down on the book, you know their opinion isn't based on any real-world experience and can be safely ignored

 Multimoog wrote:
Here's what I'm seeing: the new codex is pretty well-liked by people who actually PLAY Orks, whereas the people who are angry are theoryhammerers who either don't play Orks or don't play 40K at all. So basically if someone is really coming down on the book, you know their opinion isn't based on any real-world experience and can be safely ignored

[citation needed]

I play Orks. I have the fourth edition codex right next to me. I can take a picture of my Bad Moon army if you want proof. I don't like this new codex for a number of reason. Most of all I don't like that our troop chioces were not only cut in half (and I bet the next codex will still have FOC manipulation, I'd put money on it), but the boys, the heart of the army, have become irrelevant. And now we're just another army with a pointless troop selection that needs to spam HQs and heavy\elite to remain competitive.

But hey, you like it, and I have nothing against that. But you don't get to say who's opinion is or isn't valid

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
Here's what I'm seeing: the new codex is pretty well-liked by people who actually PLAY Orks, whereas the people who are angry are theoryhammerers who either don't play Orks or don't play 40K at all. So basically if someone is really coming down on the book, you know their opinion isn't based on any real-world experience and can be safely ignored

[citation needed]

I play Orks. I have the fourth edition codex right next to me. I can take a picture of my Bad Moon army if you want proof. I don't like this new codex for a number of reason. Most of all I don't like that our troop chioces were not only cut in half (and I bet the next codex will still have FOC manipulation, I'd put money on it), but the boys, the heart of the army, have become irrelevant. And now we're just another army with a pointless troop selection that needs to spam HQs and heavy\elite to remain competitive.

But hey, you like it, and I have nothing against that. But you don't get to say who's opinion is or isn't valid

irrelevant ? Not sure how you are playing your orks, but my boyz are the star players of my army. Have you actually played with your orks ? I find it hard to believe that some one who has played, now find boyz pointless.

 Multimoog wrote:
Here's what I'm seeing: the new codex is pretty well-liked by people who actually PLAY Orks, whereas the people who are angry are theoryhammerers who either don't play Orks or don't play 40K at all. So basically if someone is really coming down on the book, you know their opinion isn't based on any real-world experience and can be safely ignored

I play orks and I have many problems with the new codex based on my experience. If you're going to pretend to be part of some silent majority, evidence is required.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
Here's what I'm seeing: the new codex is pretty well-liked by people who actually PLAY Orks, whereas the people who are angry are theoryhammerers who either don't play Orks or don't play 40K at all. So basically if someone is really coming down on the book, you know their opinion isn't based on any real-world experience and can be safely ignored

I play orks and I have many problems with the new codex based on my experience. If you're going to pretend to be part of some silent majority, evidence is required.

Ok what in game issues have you had ? You say you play orks and have experience with them. Give us evidence from games you have played that the codex has issues.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
irrelevant ? Not sure how you are playing your orks, but my boyz are the star players of my army. Have you actually played with your orks ? I find it hard to believe that some one who has played, now find boyz pointless.

I play my orks as someone who has a LOT of shoota boyz. My games often had (I'm still not sure if I want to continue playing the tabletop game) 60+ shoota boyz, and certainly slugga boyz are still as useful now as they were in 6th (which was not at all. If anything they're worse due to the two main transports getting nerfed and footslogging a slugga mob is suicide). But perhaps irrelevant is not thr right word, so much as they're redundant. Grots is particular did not get any better, and camping back objectives now can be better left to either lootas or mek gun units. And taking objectives in the enemy's deployment is better left to warbikers, one of the few units that got universally better and wasn't hit by the either the KFF nerf or majorly affected by the new Mob Rule. I'd certainly like to ask some other people if they feel like they take ork boyz because they have to rather than they want to.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
irrelevant ? Not sure how you are playing your orks, but my boyz are the star players of my army. Have you actually played with your orks ? I find it hard to believe that some one who has played, now find boyz pointless.

I play my orks as someone who has a LOT of shoota boyz. My games often had (I'm still not sure if I want to continue playing the tabletop game) 60+ shoota boyz, and certainly slugga boyz are still as useful now as they were in 6th (which was not at all. If anything they're worse due to the two main transports getting nerfed and footslogging a slugga mob is suicide). But perhaps irrelevant is not thr right word, so much as they're redundant. Grots is particular did not get any better, and camping back objectives now can be better left to either lootas or mek gun units. And taking objectives in the enemy's deployment is better left to warbikers, one of the few units that got universally better and wasn't hit by the either the KFF nerf or majorly affected by the new Mob Rule. I'd certainly like to ask some other people if they feel like they take ork boyz because they have to rather than they want to.

I still enjoy my Boyz. The thing with Boyz is, we have so many. We have threat saturation. The thing people often forget is Boyz, at a glance, do not seem like much. But if left to their own devices, they will wreck just about ANYTHING on the charge, unless it's a very high armored target. And then, thats what the Nob/Klaw/Warboss is for. It's true, our Transport of choice is not as good as before, but it's still a useful tool. It just forces us to do what we do best. Spam, Spam, Eggs, Bacon and Spam. More Trukks means more time they have to waste trying to pop them off before they get too close to unload their payload of fire suppressing Boyz.

I feel our biggest loss was the 5+ cover for all UNITS it touched with the KFF. It's overall BETTER due to being a 5++, but it is only for Models touched, not units. It forces us to be a bit more tactical with it's use. And now it only covers the transport it happens to be embarked on. If anything, it makes our Battle Wagons more survivable, and a much larger threat with it's 20 capacity transport. No one wants 20 or more Boyz in their face turn 2.

But I will agree with others that our HQ slots are highly congested, and we have to do a lot to get enough of them to fill the holes we need. I still wish Painboyz had been slotless HQs with a quantity restriction (similar to Meks). But, that might have been too powerful to have each squad of Boyz with a 5+ FNP.

I play Orks and my army went up in points and became illegal outside of Unbound.

Needless to say, I am not amused.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
I play Orks and my army went up in points and became illegal outside of Unbound.

Needless to say, I am not amused.

Play with the old Codex?

Melevolence wrote:

 Chumbalaya wrote:
I play Orks and my army went up in points and became illegal outside of Unbound.

Needless to say, I am not amused.

Play with the old Codex?

play a game that doesn't hate its players?

 MWHistorian wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

 Chumbalaya wrote:
I play Orks and my army went up in points and became illegal outside of Unbound.

Needless to say, I am not amused.

Play with the old Codex?

play a game that doesn't hate its players?

*shrug* If thats how one feels, then nothing is stopping them. I guess I'm fortunate my army was diverse enough that the codex change didn't totally nullify me. I have enough of all the units to make a diverse army, and I still have fun regardless of the changes. I know not everyone has the opportunities to get more models like I have, but *shrug* every game changes. I play Heroclix for my fix on smaller, skirmish games, and even then I have to deal with changes being made. If a power works differently, it ruins the effectiveness of an old character. Granted, that might not be a good example in perspective to 40k, but the fact still remains. If my team was built around that one guy, and an update ruins him...well...time to change it up. Do I flip a table and change games because the company changed things on me? No, I keep playing because I love the game, and change my tactics.

Edit: Also, the GAME doesn't hate the player, the Company does :p Though in all seriousness, I don't think GW hates the players. But I do feel they don't appreciate us enough.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
Here's what I'm seeing: the new codex is pretty well-liked by people who actually PLAY Orks, whereas the people who are angry are theoryhammerers who either don't play Orks or don't play 40K at all. So basically if someone is really coming down on the book, you know their opinion isn't based on any real-world experience and can be safely ignored

[citation needed]

I play Orks. I have the fourth edition codex right next to me. I can take a picture of my Bad Moon army if you want proof. I don't like this new codex for a number of reason. Most of all I don't like that our troop chioces were not only cut in half (and I bet the next codex will still have FOC manipulation, I'd put money on it), but the boys, the heart of the army, have become irrelevant. And now we're just another army with a pointless troop selection that needs to spam HQs and heavy\elite to remain competitive.

But hey, you like it, and I have nothing against that. But you don't get to say who's opinion is or isn't valid

I played two games this weekend, my first two games with the new Ork books. In both games, I ised a Green Tide formation with some extra boyz, flash gitz, lootas, and a few other small units, 2000 pts. Same list for both games. First game, I was against CSM. I won after the end of the first turn when my opponent forfieted, I had 2 VPs from objectives, he had 1. Since it was such a short game, I reset my deployment and offered to play against a Guard army. I lost 16 boyz total during that game, killed most of his units and vehicles by turn 3, and the only unit I lost in its entirety was a grot mob acting as a meat shield. I won with 8vps vs his 5.

The combos are green tide with 2 kffs and a painboy with a big bosspole on the warboss. All shoota boyz. A full unit of lootas on a skyshield and flash gitz in ruins for supporting fire. Stay back and fire 100 shots per turn with the green tide and charge vehicles that get close. Let a nob mob with PKs handle AV 14, put them in a trukk to get them around fast, stick to cover.

There are things people can do to counter this obviously but without tons of large blasts, whittling down mobs of boyz with 5+/5++ is really hard. I only took one mob rule check on a unit of boyz not under the kff and they passed, but had the ability to reroll. Play the new codex right and you'll do well. Stick to your old lists and you probably won't. If you don't want to play the new ways, quit 40K. As they say, "you will not be missed"

Next week I want to run a green tide + council of waaagh, that will be a riot no matter what happens.

 Multimoog wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
If you don't want to play the new ways, quit 40K. As they say, "you will not be missed"

Careful what you wish for. You may find yourself without any opponents one day.

Reply by: Multimoog - click to view full reply 

74052

What did people actually want from the ork codex? @ 2014/07/21 04:34:29

Post by: Multimoog

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
If you don't want to play the new ways, quit 40K. As they say, "you will not be missed"

Careful what you wish for. You may find yourself without any opponents one day.

Not worried about that - I have a lot of great sports and people who are game for interesting sessions in my local group. Another Ork player and I spent Saturday talking about new strategies and making plans to play against each other to see how our respective builds perform. Nobody in my local meta who's actually looked at and thought about the possibilities with the new book is saying it's terrible. Some common builds from the last edition are going to be middling but that's just plain tough luck, take the opportunity to expand how you play. After a year and a half of fielding the same all-comers list and losing half the time, Orks almost feel like a completely new army! As the OP asks, what do you want?

Reply by: koooaei - click to view full reply 

81025

What did people actually want from the ork codex? @ 2014/07/21 06:32:03

Post by: koooaei

The problem is that troops just seem to be more of a tax now. To make them worthy you need battlewagonz to keep up with what's good now - bikers, buggies. To make a footslogging army decent, you need painboyz and a warboss. Thus, you HAVE to go unbound if you want to do something cause every darn blob needs a painboss to start functioning.

When you compare boyz and bikers, it's even more disappointing.
'eavy armored sluggaboy costs 10 pts.
warbiker boy costs 18 pts.
For 8 pts he gets: +1 toughness, up to 3+ jink, tl-dakkagun, HOW, immunity to pinning which is huge now. And most importantly he gets awesome speed.

Battlewagon's quite expensive and eats an invaluable HS slot. Truckboyz with s4 explosions and new mob rules...no - they don't work even with 'eavy armor unless the opponent completely ignores the truck. Or if they're footslogging, they need a painboss and preferably a warboss for ld9. But that's 2 damn HQ slots that are better off with bikers.

Thus, i find that boyz are better used as something like 20-25 strong footslogging squads with dedicated objective secured trucks to screen bikes and grab objectives so they can be midfield threats, grab some objectives on the way there and kick face to the enemie's leftovers or go to ground and endure on objectives if your first wave fails before they get there. Which is quite possible either. In this situation you just have a decent semi-tax troops that are quite expensive but not all that disappointing and bring awesome scoring screening rokkittrucks - basically a slotless buggy that has transport capacity just in case.

People say that greentide works but i find that "can't have more than 1 objective with 1 squad" and their awful mobility makes them not that great at actually dealing with stuff. Besides, they can easilly get tarpitted from the flank. Overwatch can be ignored with hiding behind a transport before charging. So, something like a bunch of nurgle spawns will definitely keep your horde locked for a couple of turns. For like 1/7 of it's cost. However, note that i haven't tried greentide (and won't cause i don't have enough boyz and ain't planning on buying more) and my opinion is purely based on my experience with 30-strong footslogging mobz that are allready quite unwieldy and underwhelming vs something fast and shooty or fast, tough and choppy.

On the whole, i think i sounded just too desperate. For me, it's not that bad cause i just have 70 boyz which is actually enough for the tactix i proposed. Probably, max bikers would be better, but i just don't want to throw away 50 boyz and leave 2 min squads. But now i have to get bikers and buggies.

And yep, i wanted boyz to become a bit better. Didn't expect them to get worse, to be honest They'd probably be fine if painboyz were like ig priests/comissars or at least like our own mekboyz. All in all, if they weren't in HQ that'd open vast possibilities for FNP boyz. But as it's now, i'd better avoid having more than 2 squads.

Reply by: Multimoog - click to view full reply 

74052

What did people actually want from the ork codex? @ 2014/07/21 07:11:16

Post by: Multimoog

You definitely don't need a painboy in every mob. You just need one or two that can move to wherever mob needs them most at the moment.

Reply by: koooaei - click to view full reply 

81025

What did people actually want from the ork codex? @ 2014/07/21 07:19:57

Post by: koooaei

 Multimoog wrote:
You definitely don't need a painboy in every mob. You just need one or two that can move to wherever mob needs them most at the moment.

As it goes, from my gaming experience with mobz, every darn squad needs a painboy at every moment I mean just try to go unbound and stick a painboy in every 30-strong mob and feel the difference. They still won't win you games vs tau, eldar and ig but the mobz will at least last longer and you likely won't get tabled! Probably, won't work vs ig with viverns but will definitely help vs tau and eldar.

Reply by: Multimoog - click to view full reply 

74052

What did people actually want from the ork codex? @ 2014/07/21 16:01:37

Post by: Multimoog

Read my earlier post. He didn't have any wyverns but he had (iirc) 5 tanks, most of which had front av 14, like a hellhound. They did nothing to my green tide, as it had both a painboy and kff support. I was able to charge and wreck the hellhound, as he outflanked it next to my tide mob. He was hoping to take out a big chunk of it with the hellhound but he got maybe three boyz at best before I wrecked it.

If you're positioning your mobs correctly you can fit four of them in the bubble of 2 kffs, and put painboyz in the front two mobz. Then have the rest of them behind those front two who are getting covered from the front. If you are attacked from behind you can move the painboyz back to protect those units. If your mobz ARE hit from behind, it will likely be in turn 2 or 3 - at that point you will be in waagh range of whatever the front lines were going to hit so you can safely split off the kffs to help cover what is coming at you from the rear.

TACTICS!