So, here's the main thing I noticed about the new Ork codex. (Other than it seemed to be designed by a non-ork gamer and it was stuffed with filler, but that's another story)

Most of the army options from the old book were gone. Warbosses no longer make a single mob of Nobs Troops, Big Meks no longer make a Single Deff Dread a Troop, Wazdakka is gone, so no Bikes as Troops. You get Boyz and Gretchin. That's it. All the fun options were gone, all the characterful stuff was out.

So, here's my hypothesis; Day one DLC - ala Ubisoft and EA. They had all those options in there and then someone down the line realized something;

'Why should we do that? This is a corporation. We have to make money! Why release one Codex with all the options? Then we'll only get 50 dollars from the player. Why not pull out those options and then print out new Supplements that allow them to do that?'

So, here's what I'm betting, Ghaz's supplement allows Nobs as Troops. There will be a Kult of Speed Supplement that allows bikes as Troops. There will be a Mek Supplement that allows you to make Kans and Deff Dreads Troops.

That way the ork codex will end up costing roughly 200 dollars. (If we assume 50 dollars for all four books) and only then will you get all the options you had before. Sure, you'll get new warlord traits and a few new Relics spread out over all the books, but ultimately, you're paying for the honour of getting back the options you had in the last book. The cool options, the ones that allowed the bike horde that I loved so much. (Not an ork player BTW's, I just really liked the look of it.)

Let me know what you think.

Slante

Everyone predicted the same thing with AM, but as of yet no supplement or datasheet for any of the removed characters or units. One supplement per army, (outside of space marines) seems the norm.

I don't think Waaagh! Ghazkull has anything that moves Nobz back into the troops slot and it's difficult to imagine a better book for it; I think Nobz are going to be in the Elite section for good. Similarly the Red Waaagh! coming next month has Bad Moon emblems on it, so I don't think we will be seeing much of the Kult of Speed.

That said there is absolutely no reason that Ghazkull, Red and the Looted Wagons could not have been included with the core book and I find it despicable that they were released almost in-line with each other.

Dunno about ghaz or red but looteds never really had a model, just a conversion kit and no actual instructions. so it was probably cut on request by there legal division because of that whole thing right now.

at least you guys can still play them again.

 rryannn wrote:
Everyone predicted the same thing with AM, but as of yet no supplement or datasheet for any of the removed characters or units. One supplement per army, (outside of space marines) seems the norm.

We haven't had any supplements at all yet have we? Unless I missed one

Unlike Orks though AM is still an army with a lot of options. They didn't get much taken away from them other than Rambo and a fair few special characters. Admittedly.

As an army though, they play like they did before with a lot of bells and whistles to do different things with.

Orks lost all their cool stuff. As I stated above, a lot of the options are gone and the book just doesn't play the same.

Also, are we not counting 'Codex: Storm Troopers' as a Supplement? Despite saying 'Codex' it's very clearly Supplemental in nature.

Waagh! Ghazghkull does not turn Nobz into troops.

I can say this because I have access to a copy of the book, thanks to the big box for the book.

All it has is dataslates, a unique force organization chart(which requires you to take an Elite in addition to HQ and 2 Troops), an armory, and unique missions relating to Ghazghkull or his forces. Some are "Echoes of War"(read: specific scenarios intended to have you play out a specific battle) and some are "Altars of War".

The closest thing it has to "Nobz as Troops" is the Ghazghkull's Bullyboyz dataslate which is for Mega Nobz. It's 3 units of a minimum of 5 Mega Nobz taken as a formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Celtic Strike wrote:

Also, are we not counting 'Codex: Storm Troopers' as a Supplement? Despite saying 'Codex' it's very clearly Supplemental in nature.

Then by that nature Codex: Imperial Knights is a supplement.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:

Also, are we not counting 'Codex: Storm Troopers' as a Supplement? Despite saying 'Codex' it's very clearly Supplemental in nature.

Then by that nature Codex: Imperial Knights is a supplement.

Well, are you planning on running an army using no other codex than the Knight one? I'm not sure but I'm guessing a pure knight army isn't that viable.

I've been patiently waiting the "Tyranid Mycetic Spores supplement" but it hasn't arrived yet I'd actually pay for that one

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:

Also, are we not counting 'Codex: Storm Troopers' as a Supplement? Despite saying 'Codex' it's very clearly Supplemental in nature.

Then by that nature Codex: Imperial Knights is a supplement.

Well, are you planning on running an army using no other codex than the Knight one? I'm not sure but I'm guessing a pure knight army isn't that viable.

The litmus test isn't "is it viable for tournament play?" but rather "Can I play using just this book?".

The answer is yes, you can play using just that book. You don't need to consult any other books for rules in either case.

I second Kanluwen, you cannot take Nobz as troops.
I also have access to a copy of the book, thanks to my big box called 'modem'

But you can take 5 elite-choices, so I don't think it matters seeing as they are also scoring.

The Ghazkull-supplement is more fluff than anything else.
Someone managed to put all the rules in a seven page pdf with lots of free space and big letters; I could probably get it in 4. So minimal rules, no "extra units" and mostly fluff.
What it does have are missions, tactical objectives, lots of formations and a special Detachment.
In my opinion it's worth the cash and I see it as completely optional.

I actually kinda would count Imperial knights as a supplement to the entire Imperial organization. The only difference being that it added a new model.

Codex: Storm Troopers is exactly what other supplements are. A FOC swap, new Relics, new Warlord charts, some altar of war missions and some fluff. Just like all the others.

Anyway, so Ghaz's doesn't make Nobs Troops? Then what's the point of the supplement? That would be the perfect place to do it.

Thanks for the info, so right now we actually have a new codex with a lot less options than the last one.

Any info on the Red Waaagh Supplement?

 Celtic Strike wrote:
I actually kinda would count Imperial knights as a supplement to the entire Imperial organization. The only difference being that it added a new model.

Which just goes to show that your idea of what a "supplement" is lacks real definition.

Codex: Storm Troopers is exactly what other supplements are. A FOC swap, new Relics, new Warlord charts, some altar of war missions and some fluff. Just like all the others.

It has no Altar of War missions. It has no Relics(at all) and the FOC swap isn't just that. It adds Orders just for the Tempestus book that can only be issued by Tempestor Primes from the Command Squad you get as an HQ choice.
It gets rid of the "Platoon" requirement for Scions and instead turns them into independent squads.

Anyway, so Ghaz's doesn't make Nobs Troops? Then what's the point of the supplement? That would be the perfect place to do it.

The "point of the supplement", I assume, is to give you a bunch of formations that were associated with Waaagh! Ghazghkull during the Third War for Armageddon. Things like "Snikrot's Red Skull Kommandos" or "Zagstruk's Vulcha Boyz"--basically dataslates that allow you to field a more specialized formation that would normally have been an Apocalypse formation in normal games instead.

Thanks for the info, so right now we actually have a new codex with a lot less options than the last one.

If only they had given Boyz the option to take 'Eavy Armor across the board...

Oh wait. They did.

Any info on the Red Waaagh Supplement?

There isn't one?

Celtic Strike wrote:(Other than it seemed to be designed by a non-ork gamer and it was stuffed with filler, but that's another story)

Most of the army options from the old book were gone. Warbosses no longer make a single mob of Nobs Troops, Big Meks no longer make a Single Deff Dread a Troop, Wazdakka is gone, so no Bikes as Troops. You get Boyz and Gretchin. That's it. All the fun options were gone, all the characterful stuff was out.

So, here's my hypothesis; Day one DLC - ala Ubisoft and EA. They had all those options in there and then someone down the line realized something;

'Why should we do that? This is a corporation. We have to make money! Why release one Codex with all the options? Then we'll only get 50 dollars from the player. Why not pull out those options and then print out new Supplements that allow them to do that?'

So, here's what I'm betting, Ghaz's supplement allows Nobs as Troops. There will be a Kult of Speed Supplement that allows bikes as Troops. There will be a Mek Supplement that allows you to make Kans and Deff Dreads Troops.

That way the ork codex will end up costing roughly 200 dollars. (If we assume 50 dollars for all four books) and only then will you get all the options you had before. Sure, you'll get new warlord traits and a few new Relics spread out over all the books, but ultimately, you're paying for the honour of getting back the options you had in the last book. The cool options, the ones that allowed the bike horde that I loved so much. (Not an ork player BTW's, I just really liked the look of it.)

Let me know what you think.

Slante

On subject of FOC. It looks like GW are pushing for unbound armies to be the norm. As such having FOC doesn't matter. The Formations that Orks can take right now can create Dreadmob, Kommando, Meganob, Nob, Stormboys, and Greentide detachments. Not like before but its there.

Day One DLC keeps coming up on several forums. Did Imperial Guard players cry foul when the Tempestus book came? If I remember correctly. Eldar had Craftworld Iyanda(sp) within a couple of weeks of release. Same with Farsight. This is nothing new.

As far as the Codex goes it is 104 pages full color. 4th Edition Codex was 104 pages and Black and White for the most part. Waaagh! Ghaz's book is about 80 pages. If all of that was in one book it would be the equivalent of the BRB, which some people I know are trying to trade for the smaller book because it takes up too much space.

Mozzamanx wrote:I don't think Waaagh! Ghazkull has anything that moves Nobz back into the troops slot and it's difficult to imagine a better book for it; I think Nobz are going to be in the Elite section for good. Similarly the Red Waaagh! coming next month has Bad Moon emblems on it, so I don't think we will be seeing much of the Kult of Speed.

That said there is absolutely no reason that Ghazkull, Red and the Looted Wagons could not have been included with the core book and I find it despicable that they were released almost in-line with each other.

Red Waaagh! is Grukk's Waaagh. It has combinations of different clans, probably will have speed freaks represented.

 rryannn wrote:
Everyone predicted the same thing with AM, but as of yet no supplement or datasheet for any of the removed characters or units. One supplement per army, (outside of space marines) seems the norm.

chaos has 2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
snip

except 7th edition allows you to create unbound lists so you can say feth all to what restrictions the new codex puts on you

And I'd like to see any player refuse a game with you once you show him your themed armylist.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Most of the army options from the old book were gone. Warbosses no longer make a single mob of Nobs Troops, Big Meks no longer make a Single Deff Dread a Troop, Wazdakka is gone, so no Bikes as Troops. You get Boyz and Gretchin. That's it. All the fun options were gone, all the characterful stuff was out.

I believe that this is not so much down to the potential for later DLC as simply a side-effect of the addition of Unbound lists to the game. There is no particular need to include character options to shift things from one slot to another when you can just build an army from whatever you want anyway.

As of right now, it's looking like the release this weekend is not "Da Red Waagh!" but rather it is an Apocalypse Warzone book in the same vein as Valedor, Pandorax, or Damnos.

Plus the model everyone keeps hailing as Gruuk is not Gruuk. It's a named Bad Moons Warboss(specifically Warboss Snazzdakka) from the Waagh! Ghazghkull supplement and the mission "Uniting The Clans". It's on page 70 of the book.

[quote=Kanluwen 602970 6982585 6fe3a096667b23b42dc263de6a30cd1b.jpg
If only they had given Boyz the option to take 'Eavy Armor across the board...

I don't mind having extra books with additional rules; its the prices for the amount of...anything you get.

The Knights codex, having all of 2 units, which are effectively 1 unit with a weapon swap, is ridiculously overpriced. If it was free, I'd be happy. If it was $15 for a softcover book with a real army of Knights filled with several types, I'd be happy. If there was a $40 hardcover book with several different types of knights and lots of excellent, new, original fluff and artwork, I'd be happy.

But paying $60 for a hardcover book with little to no crunch, recycled fluff, recycled art, and otherwise poor layout, is a little much. This goes for all the current codices. Supplements are worse.

I'm a firm believer that rules can easily be made free as a download. These would be just the rules; no fluff, no art, just barebones stats. Then you offer a book, a single book for each faction, with all the rules you need, plus the art and fluff neatly laid out. This is the paid content; somewhere between $30 and $60 dependent on the content.

That way everyone wins.

None of this microtransaction nonsense, or offering a series of $60 books for very little crunch (that can often fit on a page or two in the main book) and some fluff and artwork that may or not be recycled in whole or in part.

If I'm going to pay $60 for a hardcover book, I want a few things. I want options; a codex with balance and plenty of choices, including rules for different sub factions. I want fluff; every edition I want more original fluff, flesh out the old stuff better, and expand upon the smaller sub factions. I want artwork; I like seeing the old stuff, but I want new art of nearly everything.

If I'm going to pay $60 for a hardcover book, I want to feel like I'm getting what I paid for. After buying the new IG book, I don't feel like I'm getting that.

I don't mind the idea of supplements, I just want the core book to feel like it doesn't need a supplement to make it interesting, or complete, or exciting, or...fun.

That's the issue, the new ork codex totally feels like it was purposefully lacking something just so they could justify the later supplements.

But there is a huge flaw in puting units outside of troops or puting a lot of them in to the same army slot , if unbound is suppose to balance it. First of all , that is like writing a codex to be balance by FW rules. And secondly , if an army can not be played as a normal single detachment army , like all the other good armies , why bother with a new codex ?

 Sir Arun wrote:

 rryannn wrote:
Everyone predicted the same thing with AM, but as of yet no supplement or datasheet for any of the removed characters or units. One supplement per army, (outside of space marines) seems the norm.

chaos has 2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
snip

except 7th edition allows you to create unbound lists so you can say feth all to what restrictions the new codex puts on you

And I'd like to see any player refuse a game with you once you show him your themed armylist.

That would be cool if most of the internet chatter I've seen and ALL major tourneys hadn't banned unbound outright. Tourney's are not going to allow LOW so Ghaz is out, no matter how NOT OP he is.

Also, don't get me started on Farsight Enclave. That supplement did not need to exist and I play Tau. You know how you could've made that entire thing not exist? This unit entry:

"Farsight Enclave: In any detachment where Commander Farsight is your Warlord, Crisis suits may be taken as both Elites and Troop choices. Note that this detachment may not contain Ethereals or Commander Shadowsun."

Done.

The actually interesting Supplement would've been the fabled 'Codex: Kroot.' That would actually be cool and fun and not at all a naked cash grab.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
That would be cool if most of the internet chatter I've seen and ALL major tourneys hadn't banned unbound outright. Tourney's are not going to allow LOW so Ghaz is out, no matter how NOT OP he is.

And the tournament we've seen allowing unbound was horribly fethed.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The litmus test isn't "is it viable for tournament play?" but rather "Can I play using just this book?".

And yet we have "Codex: Legion of the Damned" that auto loses turn 1 when played by itself.

 Yonan wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
That would be cool if most of the internet chatter I've seen and ALL major tourneys hadn't banned unbound outright. Tourney's are not going to allow LOW so Ghaz is out, no matter how NOT OP he is.

And the tournament we've seen allowing unbound was horribly fethed.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The litmus test isn't "is it viable for tournament play?" but rather "Can I play using just this book?".

And yet we have "Codex: Legion of the Damned" that auto loses turn 1 when played by itself.

So, is this reinforcing my point? Or no?

The reason we've lost the focus on shifting troops choices is that those were a byproduct of fifth edition's ONLY TROOPS SCORE change. With the shift back towards everything scoring there isn't the need for FOC juggling anymore. Any new FOC shenanigans will come from formations. GW doesn't love unbound as much as certain elements think they do - otherwise they wouldn't be throwing formations and FOCs at us like they are.

And the reason they keep giving us supplements is because it is exactly what we asked for. The community demanded them, GW tried them out, and they sell like hotcakes. They can't print them fast enough for some of us.

And since no one has correctly answered it yet, The Red Waaaaagh! is the subtitle of SANCTUS REACH - which is rumored to be the new Planet Strike update we've been hearing about for a while - not a Warzone. Next Warzone is supposed to be Armageddon, which comes later this year.

I'll pay the FOC shenanigans not being present due to unbound. It doesn't reduce how bad it is for players though, since unbound is ridiculous and therefore justifiably banned in many (most?) areas and tournaments. WTB coke classic, pst!

Massawyrm wrote:
The reason we've lost the focus on shifting troops choices is that those were a byproduct of fifth edition's ONLY TROOPS SCORE change. With the shift back towards everything scoring there isn't the need for FOC juggling anymore. Any new FOC shenanigans will come from formations. GW doesn't love unbound as much as certain elements think they do - otherwise they wouldn't be throwing formations and FOCs at us like they are.

I partially agree.
The love for unbound is not like some people make it to be, not when Orks can now pick between 5 different kinds of detachments and when they have half a dozen formations.
I am glad we are moving away from the "1 HQ, 2 troops or GTFO"-FOC because this makes different factions even more distinct.

The shift on troop-choices might be a byproduct of the fact that everything scores.
What GW forgets is that many players liked to play Ork-armies without any Boyz, they cannot do that anymore.
Those players could always use 2 or 3 x Gretchin or Boyz, but they are now forced to buy and field them.

Simple solution: don't buy them anymore.

Slightly more elaborate solution: Don't buy them anymore, and complain online so other people know not to buy them too.

 insaniak wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Most of the army options from the old book were gone. Warbosses no longer make a single mob of Nobs Troops, Big Meks no longer make a Single Deff Dread a Troop, Wazdakka is gone, so no Bikes as Troops. You get Boyz and Gretchin. That's it. All the fun options were gone, all the characterful stuff was out.

I believe that this is not so much down to the potential for later DLC as simply a side-effect of the addition of Unbound lists to the game. There is no particular need to include character options to shift things from one slot to another when you can just build an army from whatever you want anyway.

I agree.

There is no definition for "codex" but what I have always understood it to be is a book that lists the units and rules for an army and allows you to create a "legal" army in the sense of providing an HQ and Troops units at minimum, plus some options for Elites and so on.

As GW simply gave Knight Titans spaces in the HQ and Troops slots, they can make a legal army and also fill more units into the other slots if they want to.

Of course an "army" that has only one type of unit with two variants is not what we would normally understand by the term, and previous codexes have always contained a wide variety of units. From that angle, Codex: Imperial Knights is clearly intended to be a supplement to allow any Imperial army to add mini-Titans to its list by Allying.

The Unbound rule of course makes the whole concept of a codex irrelevant. GW could easily release every unit as a single sheet of A4 listing its rules, allowing players to collect just the ones they want and assemble an army by putting all their unit sheets into a ring-binder.

 Yonan wrote:
Slightly more elaborate solution: Don't buy them anymore, and complain online so other people know not to buy them too.

Doesn't change the fact that you may have spend money on a bad or unplayable army . Complaining does give back money.

It's actually funny, on my FLGS' Facebook group one of the longtime Ork players posted a rant about all the stuff GW messed up with the Codex, and someone had the gall to just say "Think of it as a book that was $100 instead of $50" referring to the supplement.

I really can't believe how some people will defend this kind of nonsense. They deliberately print out a crap Codex to get you to buy the supplement/dataslates/etc. down the road. People constantly wonder why almost every thread turns into an anti-GW discussion. Things like this is why, because ultimately it boils down to the fact everything bad goes back to GW is a pathetic company.

WayneTheGame wrote:
It's actually funny, on my FLGS' Facebook group one of the longtime Ork players posted a rant about all the stuff GW messed up with the Codex, and someone had the gall to just say "Think of it as a book that was $100 instead of $50" referring to the supplement.

I really can't believe how some people will defend this kind of nonsense. They deliberately print out a crap Codex to get you to buy the supplement/dataslates/etc. down the road. People constantly wonder why almost every thread turns into an anti-GW discussion. Things like this is why, because ultimately it boils down to the fact everything bad goes back to GW is a pathetic company.

What was left out of the ork codex that will be included in the supplement? I'm an outsider I have no idea how the ork codex worked/works.

KommissarKarl wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
It's actually funny, on my FLGS' Facebook group one of the longtime Ork players posted a rant about all the stuff GW messed up with the Codex, and someone had the gall to just say "Think of it as a book that was $100 instead of $50" referring to the supplement.

I really can't believe how some people will defend this kind of nonsense. They deliberately print out a crap Codex to get you to buy the supplement/dataslates/etc. down the road. People constantly wonder why almost every thread turns into an anti-GW discussion. Things like this is why, because ultimately it boils down to the fact everything bad goes back to GW is a pathetic company.

What was left out of the ork codex that will be included in the supplement? I'm an outsider I have no idea how the ork codex worked/works.

Nobody knows, that's the thing; I don't know if the supplement is going to include extras, or be just like "Nobz are Troops", or what. But it's a good way to con people into buying the supplement. Maybe it fixes your Codex, maybe it doesn't. Spend $50 to find out what's behind Door #1...

WayneTheGame wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
It's actually funny, on my FLGS' Facebook group one of the longtime Ork players posted a rant about all the stuff GW messed up with the Codex, and someone had the gall to just say "Think of it as a book that was $100 instead of $50" referring to the supplement.

I really can't believe how some people will defend this kind of nonsense. They deliberately print out a crap Codex to get you to buy the supplement/dataslates/etc. down the road. People constantly wonder why almost every thread turns into an anti-GW discussion. Things like this is why, because ultimately it boils down to the fact everything bad goes back to GW is a pathetic company.

What was left out of the ork codex that will be included in the supplement? I'm an outsider I have no idea how the ork codex worked/works.

Nobody knows, that's the thing. But it's a good way to con people into buying the supplement. Maybe it fixes your Codex, maybe it doesn't. Spend $50 to find out what's behind Door #1...

So you're complaining about something being cut from your codex...you just don't know what that is?

KommissarKarl wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
It's actually funny, on my FLGS' Facebook group one of the longtime Ork players posted a rant about all the stuff GW messed up with the Codex, and someone had the gall to just say "Think of it as a book that was $100 instead of $50" referring to the supplement.

I really can't believe how some people will defend this kind of nonsense. They deliberately print out a crap Codex to get you to buy the supplement/dataslates/etc. down the road. People constantly wonder why almost every thread turns into an anti-GW discussion. Things like this is why, because ultimately it boils down to the fact everything bad goes back to GW is a pathetic company.

What was left out of the ork codex that will be included in the supplement? I'm an outsider I have no idea how the ork codex worked/works.

Nobody knows, that's the thing. But it's a good way to con people into buying the supplement. Maybe it fixes your Codex, maybe it doesn't. Spend $50 to find out what's behind Door #1...

So you're complaining about something being cut from your codex...you just don't know what that is?

I'm not, an Ork player at my FLGS was but he didn't go into detail on what, and some GWombie said just buy the supplement like a good sheep as the answer.

The only thing we know that was cut from the codex for separate release was the looted wagon, and there's no disputing it. It was in the previous 'dex, it's not in the current 'dex. To get it, you pay extra to buy a white dwarf, released at same time as 'dex.

 Yonan wrote:
The only thing we know that was cut from the codex for separate release was the looted wagon, and there's no disputing it. It was in the previous 'dex, it's not in the current 'dex. To get it, you pay extra to buy a white dwarf, released at same time as 'dex.

...And the reason it's in white dwarf was because the fanbase wanted it back. You can complain about GW listening to the fanbase if you want but at least acknowledge that's what you're doing.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I'm not, an Ork player at my FLGS was but he didn't go into detail on what, and some GWombie said just buy the supplement like a good sheep as the answer.

Hehe, GWombie. I need to use that some time. Those kind of people who just tell you to suck it up and buy more seriously hamper my enjoyment of the Hobby.


(Just to clarify I'm not saying people defending GW are bad, just that there is this one guy like that who runs the only local gaming club so now I have to play at a friends home or go for a 40 minute drive.)

WayneTheGame wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
It's actually funny, on my FLGS' Facebook group one of the longtime Ork players posted a rant about all the stuff GW messed up with the Codex, and someone had the gall to just say "Think of it as a book that was $100 instead of $50" referring to the supplement.

I really can't believe how some people will defend this kind of nonsense. They deliberately print out a crap Codex to get you to buy the supplement/dataslates/etc. down the road. People constantly wonder why almost every thread turns into an anti-GW discussion. Things like this is why, because ultimately it boils down to the fact everything bad goes back to GW is a pathetic company.

What was left out of the ork codex that will be included in the supplement? I'm an outsider I have no idea how the ork codex worked/works.

Nobody knows, that's the thing; I don't know if the supplement is going to include extras, or be just like "Nobz are Troops", or what. But it's a good way to con people into buying the supplement. Maybe it fixes your Codex, maybe it doesn't. Spend $50 to find out what's behind Door #1...

Actually people who bought the big box know, since it included the supplement.

 jonolikespie wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I'm not, an Ork player at my FLGS was but he didn't go into detail on what, and some GWombie said just buy the supplement like a good sheep as the answer.

Hehe, GWombie. I need to use that some time. Those kind of people who just tell you to suck it up and buy more seriously hamper my enjoyment of the Hobby.


(Just to clarify I'm not saying people defending GW are bad, just that there is this one guy like that who runs the only local gaming club so now I have to play at a friends home or go for a 40 minute drive.)

I cannot take credit for it, I think someone on Warseer used it in reply to my asking why people still gush over 40k releases, and it stuck But yeah, his answer to the FB post ranting about how the guy is almost ready to quit because GW has fethed up the Ork codex was "Just think of it as a book that costs $100 instead of $50".

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
The only thing we know that was cut from the codex for separate release was the looted wagon, and there's no disputing it. It was in the previous 'dex, it's not in the current 'dex. To get it, you pay extra to buy a white dwarf, released at same time as 'dex.

...And the reason it's in white dwarf was because the fanbase wanted it back. You can complain about GW listening to the fanbase if you want but at least acknowledge that's what you're doing.

I keep hearing this, where exactly does it come from? The White Dwarf it was in was printed months before we actually heard that it wouldn't be in the dex wasn't it?

 jonolikespie wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
The only thing we know that was cut from the codex for separate release was the looted wagon, and there's no disputing it. It was in the previous 'dex, it's not in the current 'dex. To get it, you pay extra to buy a white dwarf, released at same time as 'dex.

...And the reason it's in white dwarf was because the fanbase wanted it back. You can complain about GW listening to the fanbase if you want but at least acknowledge that's what you're doing.

I keep hearing this, where exactly does it come from? The White Dwarf it was in was printed months before we actually heard that it wouldn't be in the dex wasn't it?

I love arguments like that, though. GW took it away and gave it back, they're awesome! Uhh... how about they not take it away in the first place because they're babies?

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
The only thing we know that was cut from the codex for separate release was the looted wagon, and there's no disputing it. It was in the previous 'dex, it's not in the current 'dex. To get it, you pay extra to buy a white dwarf, released at same time as 'dex.

...And the reason it's in white dwarf was because the fanbase wanted it back. You can complain about GW listening to the fanbase if you want but at least acknowledge that's what you're doing.

If that was the reason, then they could have just made the rules available as a free downloadable PDF. Especially because if it was just thrown into WD as a last minute thing to please the Ork players, then that means it is just a copy paste from the previous codex entry with absolutely no more work put into it...

The way that it was made was as an incentive to get more people to buy WD, so no, they aren't listening to the fanbase.

Another thread full of entitled Ork players crying? Stop being so damn whiny.

That sort of comment is counter-productive. Please refrain from making them in future.

PapaSoul wrote:
Another thread full of entitled Ork players crying? Stop being so damn whiny.

Oh good, what a constructive, useful thing to post.

Maybe next time you can tell us how to post better and remain on topic?

Anyways, I'm highly doubtful that the reason the Looted Wagon appeared in WD was due to the player base reaction.

We want *new* rules in White Dwarf. Not rules cut from a codex for whatever reason. There is no way in hell this was "for the players".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:
Another thread full of entitled Ork players crying? Stop being so damn whiny.

This. I can see where hes coming from though regardless of intellectual input i feel there are too many ork comlaint threads, hopefully after this week it is water under the bridge and we can complain about sone thing else.

Also why not homebrew? When sisters player feel that they get rhe short end of the stick (i dont play sisters so i dont know if they are really good or not) they home brew the everliving piss out of anything they can get their hands on.
Honestly i wish IG had a supplement and the Orc dex could use its old force org stuff. Sm get it why not orcs?

Papa Soul's comment was already addressed by Kilkrazy above, so if we could move back to discussing the topic (supplements being released separately from a codex) that'd be great.

Thanks!

I'm kind of annoyed by the "play Unbound' advice to Biker/Dread/Nob based army players:

When Unbound allows you to play armies you never were able to play before, that's a tip of the hat to Unbound.

When the rules remove the option for you to field the army that you had been able to field, then 'restore' it somewhere else, that has separate limitations, that's not an improvement.

If I could buy my a beer with my meal, and then was told that I'd have to purchase the beer at a separate counter, but that counter also sold all sorts of other stuff (which I didn't want), I didn't get an improved dining experience.

Some tournaments and organized gaming events don't allow Unbound. Unbound removes the benefits you receive from taking a Battleforged army. Unbound also 'unlocks' (for both players) more powerful units (which means that taking an Unbound army just to expand your options is handicapping you against another Unbound army which uses that choice to take the most powerful units from several Codexes).

However, the biggest irritation about it is that removing a pre-existing option (which was maintained in other armies when they received a new book, seems petty and ungenerous.

Da Butcha wrote:

However, the biggest irritation about it is that removing a pre-existing option (which was maintained in other armies when they received a new book, seems petty and ungenerous.

+1.

I'd say all the 'codex whiners' actually do have a valid point. A player has invested quite a lot of cash in the existing product and building an army of that faction, and now, rather harshly, you suddenly need to pay for a new codex / rule book to be able to use those products. When the required new book is expensive, I can see the reason for an outcry - especially if you feel that the book doesn't offer you much value, or if there's a money grab by splitting the book in two expensive parts.

It's not as simple as to just "not buy it" - if you don't, you invalidate your model collection, and that's a bit of a problem.

Hopefully the numbers show GW hat we want. I've bought 3 each of SM Strike Forces and Strike Force Ultras this year but none of their books since SM which is actually decent and none of the new ridiculously priced models.

KommissarKarl wrote:

So you're complaining about something being cut from your codex...you just don't know what that is?

If you look at my original post you can see a (not complete list) of things that have been cut. FOC swaps for the most part, which lead to the ability to create a fun and themed army.

Taking bikes as Troops, taking Dreadnoughts as Troops, taking Nobs as Troops. Now you get none of that. If you had an army of 40 bikes (Something I know a few people in my area had) you now CANNOT legally play it. If you want to play your Orks AT ALL you have to buy two units of Boyz on foot. Which totally ruins all your hard work, the theme and the look of your army.

Same with the nobs and the Dreads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's getting ridiculous. I haven't bought anything other than the Sisters codex and the Eldar codex (no models, or anything) for the passed 4 YEARS to make a half-assed protest attempt against the company.

Uh you can still play an army of 40 bikes.
Warbiker units can be up to 15 models strong.
Nobs can be a 10 man unit at maximum and the entire mob can take warbikes.

Boyz can buy Trukks so I don't know why you are saying the Boyz need to be on foot...

WayneTheGame wrote:
I love arguments like that, though. GW took it away and gave it back, they're awesome! Uhh... how about they not take it away in the first place because they're babies?

Also, they didn't take it away and then give it back.

They took it away and then *sold* it back.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
So, here's what I'm betting, Ghaz's supplement allows Nobs as Troops. There will be a Kult of Speed Supplement that allows bikes as Troops. There will be a Mek Supplement that allows you to make Kans and Deff Dreads Troops.

No such thing in the Ghaz book. It gives you one more Elites slot if you use the Great Waagh! Detachment, but that's it.

Want a bunch of Dreads? They'll point you to the Dread Mob in the Ghaz book. It's 3 Dreads, 3 units of Kans (3+ per mob), 2 Orkanauts, a Big Mek, and a Painboy, all taking up zero FOC slots.

Kult of Speed might make Bikes Troops, but that's down the line.

What they want you to do, and they said it straight up in White Dwarf, is use Unbound. You don't get detachment or formation bonuses, but you can use whatever units you like. Yeah, that doesn't work for tournaments, or for games with strangers who don't trust you not to cave their face in. But if you're not playing in a tournament, just tell the guy you're playing, "Look, I want to do a Speed Freaks list, but I have to do it Unbound. Are you cool with that?" When I tell people something like that, they're fine with it.

It is kind of sad, though, that people hate Ork Boyz so much that they don't want to take them at all, even a minimum number. Technically, you can do a Battle-Forged Speed Freaks army by just filling your minimum Troops with Boyz in Trukks, and then double up the detachments.

 ErikSetzer wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
So, here's what I'm betting, Ghaz's supplement allows Nobs as Troops. There will be a Kult of Speed Supplement that allows bikes as Troops. There will be a Mek Supplement that allows you to make Kans and Deff Dreads Troops.

No such thing in the Ghaz book. It gives you one more Elites slot if you use the Great Waagh! Detachment, but that's it.

Want a bunch of Dreads? They'll point you to the Dread Mob in the Ghaz book. It's 3 Dreads, 3 units of Kans (3+ per mob), 2 Orkanauts, a Big Mek, and a Painboy, all taking up zero FOC slots.

Kult of Speed might make Bikes Troops, but that's down the line.

What they want you to do, and they said it straight up in White Dwarf, is use Unbound. You don't get detachment or formation bonuses, but you can use whatever units you like. Yeah, that doesn't work for tournaments, or for games with strangers who don't trust you not to cave their face in. But if you're not playing in a tournament, just tell the guy you're playing, "Look, I want to do a Speed Freaks list, but I have to do it Unbound. Are you cool with that?" When I tell people something like that, they're fine with it.

It is kind of sad, though, that people hate Ork Boyz so much that they don't want to take them at all, even a minimum number. Technically, you can do a Battle-Forged Speed Freaks army by just filling your minimum Troops with Boyz in Trukks, and then double up the detachments.

Then the Ghaz supplement is even worse than I feared.

Yeah, you could but boyz in trukks, that might be fine if you're building an army fresh. What about someone who's had the army for a decade who now has to buy two trukks and two mobs of boyz just to stay legal? Or someone who did the same with Deff Dreads. I suppose with the dredds you can use the forge world book (Which is actually still pretty fun)

You shouldn't have to ask permission to use your army that used to be legal 7 days ago.
7th was a fairly big change but it wasn't what the change from 2nd to 3rd was like. A change so big it invalidated everything (For the better ultimately - for a while at least)

Maybe I'm giving GW too much credit in the evil department. Maybe they're just so out of touch with what the player base wants and needs that they think this is a good thing.
Maybe they're actually surprised that people are mad that they lost most of their options. Maybe they're not evil, maybe they're dumb/incompetent.

Losing choices, losing options is never a good thing and should never happen (in a significant way anyway - some things may get changed around or whatever - I get that) when a new dex is released.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Uh you can still play an army of 40 bikes.
Warbiker units can be up to 15 models strong.
Nobs can be a 10 man unit at maximum and the entire mob can take warbikes.

Boyz can buy Trukks so I don't know why you are saying the Boyz need to be on foot...

So.... you still failed to answer my question. Despite it being asked directly.

Bikes as TROOPS. TROOPS with Objective secured (A vital rule for tournys and casual play alike) Are boyz bikes? Nope.
Deff Dreads as TROOPS. Same as above. Nope
Nobs as TROOPS. See above and two above. NOPE.

So I'm assuming if they came out with a new Marine Dex and took away bikes as TROOPS options for White Scars and/or Dark angels you'd just say. "Get marines in Rhinos" and ignore the point people are making? What about for Eldar? Same thing. Bikes as TROOPS. Objective secured is one of the most important rules in 7th. And Orks lost 4 methods of getting it.

Things like this aren't out of the ordinary.

Me: "I'd like to pick up my pre-order of Mass Effect 3, please."
Clerk: "Sure thing, did you wanna go ahead and pick up the DLC for that as well? It's only $9.99."


Because that makes sense.

I'm confused as to how much we 'lost.' Two special characters, right? And Looted Wagons will be fading into obscurity, so three things.
Yeah, certain options can't be troops. So? Everyone scores in 7th edition, we have unlimited FOCs, or we can play FOCless and do whatever we want. Shuffling options to troops no longer means much, other than giving a reroll on Warlord Traits and some other small buff.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'm confused as to how much we 'lost.' Two special characters, right? And Looted Wagons will be fading into obscurity, so three things.
Yeah, certain options can't be troops. So? Everyone scores in 7th edition, we have unlimited FOCs, or we can play FOCless and do whatever we want. Shuffling options to troops no longer means much, other than giving a reroll on Warlord Traits and some other small buff.

Yeah. as I've mentioned, I don't even play Orks, but to see an amazingly Ork-ified Land Raider painted red with boyz on top was amazing to behold. Looted Wagons were a very cool part of Orks. R.I.P.

krodarklorr wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'm confused as to how much we 'lost.' Two special characters, right? And Looted Wagons will be fading into obscurity, so three things.
Yeah, certain options can't be troops. So? Everyone scores in 7th edition, we have unlimited FOCs, or we can play FOCless and do whatever we want. Shuffling options to troops no longer means much, other than giving a reroll on Warlord Traits and some other small buff.

Yeah. as I've mentioned, I don't even play Orks, but to see an amazingly Ork-ified Land Raider painted red with boyz on top was amazing to behold. Looted Wagons were a very cool part of Orks. R.I.P.

The WD article had this to say:

Looted Wagons have been part of Ork collections for many years now, so we asked Jervis to write us some rules to let you use them in your army. (You can, of course, simply use them as Battlewagons if you prefer)

So those "Looted Land Raiders" can still see usage as Battlewagons. Nothing is stopping people from doing so.

krodarklorr wrote:
Things like this aren't out of the ordinary.

Me: "I'd like to pick up my pre-order of Mass Effect 3, please."
Clerk: "Sure thing, did you wanna go ahead and pick up the DLC for that as well? It's only $9.99."


Because that makes sense.

Yeah, it does. It's like going to McDonalds, buying a hamburger, and then adding a side of fries and a drink. To use your example, Mass Effect 3 was a full game. Feature-length, full content, etc. If there hadn't been anyDLC, nobidy would have thought a thing was missing. (Except the ending, but that's an entirely different problem.) The DLC is an extra 6-10 hours of game that you can buy if you want to. If you feel that Mass Effect wasn't long enough and needed 6-10 more hours of Gameplay to be reasonably priced, the DLC still doesn't solve your problems, because its not the same game. It's a new mission, new content, running on the same engine. A different story entirely.
So, to people who complain about Day 1 DLC: Why don't you complain about all DLC? Because of the release time? So, since the company already had it made, they should hand out a separate product for free?

It means they won't have Objective Secured.
And to be honest, I think that would be a bit too strong on Nobz and bikers.

What people miss the most is the option to take a biker-only army.
That could be fixed with a formation/detachment, they just need to release it.

Yeah, this is their new 2 pronged business strategy of the fiscal year to try and maintain their current revenues in order to hide their overall situation from shareholders. On one hand you release tons of codex's one after the other to try and hold up sales and on the other cut up said codex's into supplements, all the while not charging under $50 for any of these products.

Expect a new ripoff trick from GW in about a year.

Waaaghpower wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:
Things like this aren't out of the ordinary.

Me: "I'd like to pick up my pre-order of Mass Effect 3, please."
Clerk: "Sure thing, did you wanna go ahead and pick up the DLC for that as well? It's only $9.99."


Because that makes sense.

Yeah, it does. It's like going to McDonalds, buying a hamburger, and then adding a side of fries and a drink. To use your example, Mass Effect 3 was a full game. Feature-length, full content, etc. If there hadn't been anyDLC, nobidy would have thought a thing was missing. (Except the ending, but that's an entirely different problem.) The DLC is an extra 6-10 hours of game that you can buy if you want to. If you feel that Mass Effect wasn't long enough and needed 6-10 more hours of Gameplay to be reasonably priced, the DLC still doesn't solve your problems, because its not the same game. It's a new mission, new content, running on the same engine. A different story entirely.
So, to people who complain about Day 1 DLC: Why don't you complain about all DLC? Because of the release time? So, since the company already had it made, they should hand out a separate product for free?

The only DLC that was available for Mass Effect 3 at launch was "From Ashes" which unlocked Javik and a single mission that got you Javik.

Waaaghpower wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:
Things like this aren't out of the ordinary.

Me: "I'd like to pick up my pre-order of Mass Effect 3, please."
Clerk: "Sure thing, did you wanna go ahead and pick up the DLC for that as well? It's only $9.99."


Because that makes sense.

Yeah, it does. It's like going to McDonalds, buying a hamburger, and then adding a side of fries and a drink. To use your example, Mass Effect 3 was a full game. Feature-length, full content, etc. If there hadn't been anyDLC, nobidy would have thought a thing was missing. (Except the ending, but that's an entirely different problem.) The DLC is an extra 6-10 hours of game that you can buy if you want to. If you feel that Mass Effect wasn't long enough and needed 6-10 more hours of Gameplay to be reasonably priced, the DLC still doesn't solve your problems, because its not the same game. It's a new mission, new content, running on the same engine. A different story entirely.
So, to people who complain about Day 1 DLC: Why don't you complain about all DLC? Because of the release time? So, since the company already had it made, they should hand out a separate product for free?

Because DLC is supposed to be like mini expansions that come out to give people some extra stuff. And also, the character from the DLC, was a (SPOILER) Prothean. Uh, that's kind of a big effing deal, don't you think? Why would that not be included in the original game? It was obviously just a way for bioware to make more money right off the bat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'm confused as to how much we 'lost.' Two special characters, right? And Looted Wagons will be fading into obscurity, so three things.
Yeah, certain options can't be troops. So? Everyone scores in 7th edition, we have unlimited FOCs, or we can play FOCless and do whatever we want. Shuffling options to troops no longer means much, other than giving a reroll on Warlord Traits and some other small buff.

Yeah. as I've mentioned, I don't even play Orks, but to see an amazingly Ork-ified Land Raider painted red with boyz on top was amazing to behold. Looted Wagons were a very cool part of Orks. R.I.P.

The WD article had this to say:

Looted Wagons have been part of Ork collections for many years now, so we asked Jervis to write us some rules to let you use them in your army. (You can, of course, simply use them as Battlewagons if you prefer)

So those "Looted Land Raiders" can still see usage as Battlewagons. Nothing is stopping people from doing so.

I suppose you have a point, I mean I sure as hell would do that. But nonetheless, the Looted Wagon was awesome. I was even gonna help my friend build one by possibly giving him some Doomsday Ark sprues.

Krodaklorr, so you're saying that DLC on Day One doesn't give people extra stuff to play?

Waaaghpower wrote:
Krodaklorr, so you're saying that DLC on Day One doesn't give people extra stuff to play?

It defeats the purpose. It basically advertises that the game is not all it could be, right when it comes out. It's just for profit. They could have easily incorporated it into the original game.

So you *Do* want more content for the same price then?

Waaaghpower wrote:
So you *Do* want more content for the same price then?

I honestly can't see how you can defend that. I don't want to have to pay for something that should have been included in the original product.

krodarklorr wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
So you *Do* want more content for the same price then?

I honestly can't see how you can defend that. I don't want to have to pay for something that should have been included in the original product.

Here's the two options:
You think the game wasn't big enough and needs more content, or...
You're being hypocritical.

It's fine if you think a specific game isn't worth the price. But when you dismiss all Day 1 DLC because you believe it should be given away for free merely because of timing, well... You're asking for more content for free, in whatever way you phrase it.

Waaaghpower wrote:
So you *Do* want more content for the same price then?

Aren't we talking about a unit that is removed from the codex and then added as DLC?

Kangodo wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
So you *Do* want more content for the same price then?

Aren't we talking about a unit that is removed from the codex and then added as DLC?

I'm talking about video games and supplements. The Looted Wagon thing was stupid.

krodarklorr wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Krodaklorr, so you're saying that DLC on Day One doesn't give people extra stuff to play?

It defeats the purpose. It basically advertises that the game is not all it could be, right when it comes out. It's just for profit. They could have easily incorporated it into the original game.

I'm gonna let you in on a secret of Mass Effect 3 just real quick.

There were two different teams working on content. "From Ashes" was done by the second team--and what's more, the reason it was released as "DLC" is because it wasn't finished when the discs went to print.

What you should ask yourself is: "Do I get more or less entertainment for my money than 5 years ago?"

My games are more expensive and they have often less content in them.
My models are 50% more expensive.
My codex is 50% more expensive.

Do I also get 50% more quality and quantity? I don't think so.

Waaaghpower wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
So you *Do* want more content for the same price then?

I honestly can't see how you can defend that. I don't want to have to pay for something that should have been included in the original product.

Here's the two options:
You think the game wasn't big enough and needs more content, or...
You're being hypocritical.

It's fine if you think a specific game isn't worth the price. But when you dismiss all Day 1 DLC because you believe it should be given away for free merely because of timing, well... You're asking for more content for free, in whatever way you phrase it.

So for the sake of argument, you'd be okay with going out and buying Skyrim right when it comes out, but you'd have to pay another 9.99 to get access to the Thieves Guild? Or, from what you're saying, the fact that it's available day 1 is irrelevant, and the game is 100% complete without it. You're completely okay with that?

The key here is is that GW is now in the mindset to stretch a release over several weeks rather than in one large chunk.

Codices and rules are no exception. They're chopping up the rules and adding things in (and keep in mind, we've been asking for factions and supplements for years now so we're as much to blame for this as they are) at a stretched out rate that this is what we should expect from now on.

 Kanluwen wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Krodaklorr, so you're saying that DLC on Day One doesn't give people extra stuff to play?

It defeats the purpose. It basically advertises that the game is not all it could be, right when it comes out. It's just for profit. They could have easily incorporated it into the original game.

I'm gonna let you in on a secret of Mass Effect 3 just real quick.

There were two different teams working on content. "From Ashes" was done by the second team--and what's more, the reason it was released as "DLC" is because it wasn't finished when the discs went to print.

Well, that makes sense, though I don't agree with printing the discs before it was finished. And then charging for it. I felt it was actually a pretty deep story to have not in the original game. But that does explain it, I suppose.

Clearly this discussion isn't getting anywhere, so I bid my adiueu. (Adiue? I can never remember how to spell that.)
I bid my goodbye.

Waaaghpower wrote:
So you *Do* want more content for the same price then?

Just what is wrong with that?

Kangodo wrote:
It means they won't have Objective Secured.
And to be honest, I think that would be a bit too strong on Nobz and bikers.

What people miss the most is the option to take a biker-only army.
That could be fixed with a formation/detachment, they just need to release it.

But Objective secured on a Holofield Wave Serpent is fine?

Yes, what people miss the most IS the option to take a biker only army.
It shouldn't have to be fixed. It should've been in the codex to begin with. If they do release a Kult of Speed supplement then my suspicions will be confirmed .
(If they don't then we can just chalk this up to GW being grossly incompetent.)
It's like taking out Khan and Bikes as Troops in the Space marine codex then releasing a White Scar supplement to 'patch' it.

And the *More* content for the same amount of money argument? Asinine. Two reasons;

We're not getting our money's worth now. What we want is to be satisfied customers not customers feeling like we've been ripped off.

And look at the Space Marine codex. Full of cool stuff, not just fluff and pictures, but amazing faction options that allowed you to build an army that can play anyway you want and still remain legal and fluffy. (Or Semi fluffy) Chapter tactics (Most good, two bad) for the main Space marine Chapters and even some of the obscure ones. (Poor, poor Raven Guard though...)

Bigger book, more rules, more options, more stuff for the same price. It shows that they can put out a quality product when they want, something worth the money. You cannot seriously tell me that there isn't enough fluff about different Ork Clans to justify a 'Clan tactics' option in the Ork book. (Or Chaos space Marine book for that matter) They have pages dedicated to the different clans in the new Ork book.

But they couldn't do a Clan thing to give it some variety? Why?

They did it before. They released clan specific rules as a supplement (or chapter approved, I'm a bit fuzzy on that) last time around. But they couldn't put in an extra page in the Ork codex to give it the same depth? To show that they actually cared about the player base and the product they were presenting. Could they not just cut one giant picture of an ork Nob and slip that in there?

The writing on the wall for this was in the December to Remember™ event of 2013; they are going to try and nickle and dime you the most they can.

What was an all inclusive content delivery system, the White Dwarf, now has its parts strewn across multiple publishing methods because print magazines are dying. Now adapting to a digital means of rules production is smart; you see many other companies either giving more content delivery through digital, or their main competitor going nearly entirely digital.

Games Workshop is a bit like Nintendo in a fashion. They create a beloved product that a rerelease of something familiar gives us all that warm glow to bask in and graciously buy it. However, after so many revisions and iterations of the same franchises, we become less welcoming to them. Our tastes get dulled to the same sugary sweet if we have it time and time again. Then, with the inability to really cope with internet of today coupled with doubling down on tired ways, they suddenly start losing a lot of ground. Gimmicks might bring them back or support them (their gimmicks being cut-cut-cut! tactics couple with these stretching content maneuvers), but those only go so far.

That's where the parallel ends because Nintendo has had some smarts and are pulling up from their nose dive. And they actually leverage all their IP fairly well. Their strong media presence that put forward warm business types that you wanna hug (your body is, of course, ready) also makes you still smile at beast. But most of the notable names of GW have bailed leaving one tired identity with most of the others buried under NDAs or behind "The Games Workshop Design Team™."

Where I feel one company will recover and realize their deficiencies, the other either doesn't have the right capability, management, or agility to do so. Time will tell this month on what course GW is destined...

 WarOne wrote:
...(and keep in mind, we've been asking for factions and supplements for years now so we're as much to blame for this as they are)

We're most certainly not to blame for GW choosing to charge extra for material that could have been (and previously has been) included in the codexes.

Adding the option for variant army lists doesn't require a separate publication. The Traits and Doctrines systems in the 4th edition codexes added somewhere near a gajillion variant build options to Marine and Guard armies. Removing these and releasing watered-down versions as DLC was entirely GW's doing, none of mine.

 insaniak wrote:

 WarOne wrote:
...(and keep in mind, we've been asking for factions and supplements for years now so we're as much to blame for this as they are)

We're most certainly not to blame for GW choosing to charge extra for material that could have been (and previously has been) included in the codexes.

Adding the option for variant army lists doesn't require a separate publication. The Traits and Doctrines systems in the 4th edition codexes added somewhere near a gajillion variant build options to Marine and Guard armies. Removing these and releasing watered-down versions as DLC was entirely GW's doing, none of mine.

Let's not forget about the pretty fun Chapter Tactics in the Space Marine codex and the fact that Forge world released a bunch of those FOR FREE.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Let's not forget about the pretty fun Chapter Tactics in the Space Marine codex and the fact that Forge world released a bunch of those FOR FREE.

Psst. Check the last page of the Forgeworld Ork Dread Mob list. That should, at the very least, solve your immediate problem.

 insaniak wrote:

 WarOne wrote:
...(and keep in mind, we've been asking for factions and supplements for years now so we're as much to blame for this as they are)

We're most certainly not to blame for GW choosing to charge extra for material that could have been (and previously has been) included in the codexes.

Adding the option for variant army lists doesn't require a separate publication. The Traits and Doctrines systems in the 4th edition codexes added somewhere near a gajillion variant build options to Marine and Guard armies. Removing these and releasing watered-down versions as DLC was entirely GW's doing, none of mine.

I agree we are in no part in the same room as the GW executives making the decision to make add-ons to codices and charge through the nose for them.

It takes two to tango and so far, GW is content to release the codices chopped up and sold as separate parts. If the idea was bad and not making money, they would not try and peddle this on us. I do believe people are buying these supplements and GW has seen no reason to stop.

But a year and change after they started doing it, it has only gotten worse and the speed of the supplements is now almost exceeding the actual codex release!

This has been going on for over a year, and the previous 6 monthly profits took a huge dive. Are they related? All signs point to yes. The release of 7th was a knee-jerk reaction to squeeze some more revenue into the following 6 month report so it must have looked very grim too.

 Yonan wrote:
This has been going on for over a year, and the previous 6 monthly profits took a huge dive. Are they related? All signs point to yes. The release of 7th was a knee-jerk reaction to squeeze some more revenue into the following 6 month report so it must have looked very grim too.

The 7 million difference between the 2012 and 2013 same period was definitely significant. But for what it is worth, GW is not adapting enough to compete against what is becoming a much more crowded field for people to select miniatures from. GW is not the only company out there and their attempts to stay afloat have not caused the roof for them to cave in.

They do need to address the issue if their revenue continues to fall but their strategy of supplements continues unabated.

Just as GW was ridiculously slow to react to the internet, they are slow to react to this part of their failing business model. Which is a substantial part of why other companies are doing so well. It's not so much that they're not selling - they're probably profitable since they'd cost so little to produce. It's that they're causing a drop in sales across the board as they drive players away, but GW doesn't realise it.

GW is not dumb. They've made a company grow from nerdy independent start up to a $100+ million dollar corporation.

But they have to find a way to not simply put their thumb in the dam to stop the leak, but actually go out there and figure out why they're losing money and stop coming up with stopgap measures that is only delaying the first time they miss making money and therefore enter true panic mode.

Massawyrm wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Let's not forget about the pretty fun Chapter Tactics in the Space Marine codex and the fact that Forge world released a bunch of those FOR FREE.

Psst. Check the last page of the Forgeworld Ork Dread Mob list. That should, at the very least, solve your immediate problem.

Oh, this is Dope. Just gotta wait for the 7th ed update. This is cool, thanks. Still, not a lot of tourneys allow Forge world. Even though this doesn't seem too bad. I wouldn't have a problem with this but I wouldn't advise someone build an army based on this, since it IS Forge World.

This is from someone who comes to play with a Sisters army and uses a Repressor all the damned time too. lol

Massawyrm wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Let's not forget about the pretty fun Chapter Tactics in the Space Marine codex and the fact that Forge world released a bunch of those FOR FREE.

Psst. Check the last page of the Forgeworld Ork Dread Mob list. That should, at the very least, solve your immediate problem.

This is the kind of positive post that I like to see - it does not belittle the problem, but instead points to a solution.

Here, have an Internet!

The Auld Grump

I was pretty happy with it too.