Alright so I have recently fought High elves and got destroyed all because of that banner. I now see that the best thing to do against it is to just stay away from it.

But that does not sit right with me since I play daemons and would like to destroy everything.

So I wanted to post this idea of how to deal with this on here to get some feedback on to what others think about the strategy to deal with those annoying High elves and the banner. Please feel free to add other ideas and or pick apart mine (since i am not 100% sure it will even work).

I play a mix between the gods. I mostly play Nurgle and a few other things thrown in when i need them.

I do not play any slaanesh so again i am not sure how this will work.

My idea- so i was thinking of adding a Herald of Slaanesh alone running next to my block of PB so that anything shooting at her i could use the "look out sir rule" (since she can’t join the unit). Doing this gives her the ability to move around and flank a unit if needed. (Getting her where the BSB is)

I was going to give her the loci that gives her the ability to force a model to a challenge. The idea here is to challenge the banner of the world dragon and with the loci I get to choose who accepts.

now to the fighting, Herald of Slaanesh is a lot stronger than the typical HE so even with the 2+ save i think i would have the advantage of eventually getting 1 wound. Now i do know that sometimes the BSB will be on something like white lions or something where this will not work, but so far i have only fought the banner in a typical HE group. With the challenge underway this protects her from others attacking and so forth, and hopefully once he is dead, since BSB's cannot be taken up by other guys the banner will be lost.

So what do you all think? Yes, I do understand that it is a lot of points just for an assassin, but if you have played daemons and had to fight banner of the world dragon then you know how hard it is to do anything to the group with this BSB. Also she could be useful again for other challenges and character killing so not just a one shot kill.
Again this is just an idea and I wanted to see what will work and what will not work with this.
Also i want to mention that i do not know much about the HE army so if they have some rule or thing that will make this not work let me know.

I look forward to the criticism on this topic.
Thanks.

A good idea is a lvl 4 mage with lore of metal, and cast Final Transmutation on that unit. You have 1/6 to kill the bsb, otherwise, you kill 1/3 of the unit, then destroy them by combat res.

@Taylor:

The big problem with your idea is the fact that the BotWD is cheap enough to be taken as a magical unit standard and does not have to go on a BSB. Consequently, you'll rarely have a chance to challenge out the banner bearer because it's not on a character.

For DoC, the best answer is in the form of the big "test of die" spells from the BRB rules. Metal's Final Transmutation is good if you're playing a Lvl 4 Tzeentch. If you feel like taking Kairos, you could also use something like Dwellers Below.

I ran the numbers on a block of 30 White Lions with my Mono-Khorne list, and I'd have to hit that unit in the front, one flank, and rear with about half my 2500 point army to have a chance of winning combat.

Yeah learn double flee and take seekers never engage it.

I think there's been some misunderstanding here: The Banner is carried by a unit's Standard Bearer, not the BSB. Because it is the unit standard it cannot be Challenged, killed or prevented from working short of killing every rank'n'file member of the unit. There is no shortcut to removing it; there are going to be 25-40 dudes rocking that ward save and you need to kill every single one to get any points from it.

The most fundamental thing you need to accept is that it *cannot* be fought in close combat. You can throw all 4 Greater Daemons against it at the same time and would still lose that fight. Similarly you are extremely unlikely to shoot it off. Even a perfectly-aimed Blue Fire is going to be lucky getting 3 models removed. The only reliable way to strip models away is through Transmutation, Sun or Dwellers (Kairos!) but not only are you rolling against the legendary HE dispel power, but you would need to succeed multiple times to actually turn the unit into something killable.

Quite frankly, you cannot kill it. You can, however, survive it. The game will likely devolve into feeding it multiple units of 60pt chaff, accepting that he has been given ~300pts for zero effort, and hope that the rest of your army can fight the rest of his without exposing a charge lane to his deathblock. If you happen to have some Slaaneshii or Shadow magic to hand, you can fish for lucky Hexes to tank his movement and remove it from the game for a turn.

Mozzamanx wrote:
I think there's been some misunderstanding here: The Banner is carried by a unit's Standard Bearer, not the BSB. Because it is the unit standard it cannot be Challenged, killed or prevented from working short of killing every rank'n'file member of the unit. There is no shortcut to removing it; there are going to be 25-40 dudes rocking that ward save and you need to kill every single one to get any points from it.

The most fundamental thing you need to accept is that it *cannot* be fought in close combat. You can throw all 4 Greater Daemons against it at the same time and would still lose that fight. Similarly you are extremely unlikely to shoot it off. Even a perfectly-aimed Blue Fire is going to be lucky getting 3 models removed. The only reliable way to strip models away is through Transmutation, Sun or Dwellers (Kairos!) but not only are you rolling against the legendary HE dispel power, but you would need to succeed multiple times to actually turn the unit into something killable.

Quite frankly, you cannot kill it. You can, however, survive it. The game will likely devolve into feeding it multiple units of 60pt chaff, accepting that he has been given ~300pts for zero effort, and hope that the rest of your army can fight the rest of his without exposing a charge lane to his deathblock. If you happen to have some Slaaneshii or Shadow magic to hand, you can fish for lucky Hexes to tank his movement and remove it from the game for a turn.

Pretty much this. Final Tranny+ Treason is my go to combo for this.

Thanks for all the input.
I was not aware that the banner of the world dragon was not a BSB my mistake.
In that case my idea will not really work.
Thanks for the other advice though to deal with it. we are only at about 1500 pts in the escalation game we are playing so I can’t afford a high lvl mage yet so the magic will have to wait till we get higher points.

Regarding the banner and it’s 2+ save that it gets,
From my understanding from what the banner does, the unit gets a save against all magic towards it. Does this save count as a ward save? My question is for the final transmutation spell, I know it says that no saves allowed. I am guessing this includes the banners save as well? Am I correct in thinking this?
Also, even if the SB model is destroyed in that spell. The banner would not be destroyed and someone else in the unit can just pick it up. So you would have to destroy all of them to get rid of it. Is that correct?

Exactly right. The reason these spells work is because they don't inflict Wounds, they simply remove models from play. If you don't suffer a Wound you cannot attempt the save. So they still have the 2+ ward, but the spell ignores it. It is why these spells are the only reliable way to actually get some kills; because they ignore the absurd defensive bonus given by the Banner.

If a rank-and-file model drops the Banner, another member of the unit can pick it up. The only models that can be properly killed are the Champion and any attached characters. You can allocate attacks against the Banner all day but as long as there is another Elf in the unit to pick it up, you don't actually remove any protection.

The BotWD does, in fact, provide a "save."

However, Dwellers, Purple Sun, and Final Transmutation do not cause wounds. Consequently, BotWD does not allow a save against those spells.

 captain collius wrote:
Yeah learn double flee and take seekers never engage it.

Daemons can't flee, so doing so would be cheating...

The ONLY ways Daemons can deal with a SuperSkillful Crutchbanner are:
1. Take a Keeper of Secrets w/Lv4 Slaany magic. Turn 1, march 20" strait at the center of the HE battleline, 6-dice the boosted version of Cacophonic Choir.
Nukes all their chaff, screws over the movements anything that survives, maybe sneaks a wound through the 2++ on the banner unit. Add Fiends for lore attribute profit!

2. Miasma + Acquiesence.
Bring a bunch of Lv1 Slaany Heralds who can default to Miasma from lore of Shadow, and along with the Kipper who (hopefully!) rolled up Acquiesence, pound the banner unit with those Movement-nuking spells until one gets through.
Run the f*** away from it and beat the crap out of the rest of the Elf army.

3. C***block it with conga-lined Beasts of Nurgle. It'll take even White Lions a few rounds to chew through 2-3 Beasts when they can't bring their full frontage to bear.
And as with option #2, GTFO the rest of your army away from the banner unit and punk the rest of the Elves not sporting a 2++

4. Feed it 3x 5-strong Fury units all game.
Then proceed to repeat the 'running away and killing as much as you can from what's left'

5. Bring Kairos.
Take his 'Light' Head w/Final Trans + Dwellers.
Add in 4-6 units of 10 Horrors for added Channeling rolls to fuel your magic. Cast both unit deleting spells at the offending unit and likely explode your chicken mage in the process...

6. Bring 4 levels of Death wizards and 4 levels of Tzeentch wizards.
Cast Doom & Darkness on the banner unit + Treason of Tzeentch. (Treason always second, because it's the more important spell so D&D is more for scaring the crap out of the HE and pulling out dispel dice/scroll)
Destroy a nearby unit and force a panic check on the banner unit who now get only 1 shot at passing a Ld8. (no General's Ld and no BSB re-roll either!)

7. Bring 4+ levels of Tzeentch wizards, (NOT! Horrors though - they only get Tzeentch magic!), and aim for Final Trans. 6-dice it every turn until your caster explodes horribly.



If all else fails, fight fire with fire and do the following:
1. Give your Greater Daemons the Portalglyph Hellforged Artifact, and have him put himself into it! (yes, this is perfectly "legal", despite being really stupid and entirely against the rules as intended!)

2. Deploy as much line of sight blocking terrain as possible across your back corner, then stick your most expensive stuff behind it so only line of sight ignoring attacks can hit it. Meanwhile, things like the Phoenix have no place to legally land without breaking the 1" rule.
Only deploy things like a Baleful Torrent Soul Grinder, 4-6+ Beast brick and some token Fury chaff in actual line of sight. These should be able to both chaff-up the banner and kill a bunch of Elves.
Overall though, this pretty much leads to a game of "Nothing's-happening-ever-hammer" and effectively just play for a very boring draw.

3. When your opponent whines that you're being a complete tool, point at his banner unit and remind him s/he started it by using that stupid piece of crap!

What else is a HE supposed to bring? It sucks for daemons, but for the majority of HE TAC lists the banner needs to be there to be competitive. HE elites get rolled to easily with T3 and no armor. The HE book is tier 2 at best.

 Goldphish wrote:
What else is a HE supposed to bring? It sucks for daemons, but for the majority of HE TAC lists the banner needs to be there to be competitive. HE elites get rolled to easily with T3 and no armor. The HE book is tier 2 at best.

LOL.
Please, nobody feed this troll.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Goldphish wrote:
What else is a HE supposed to bring? It sucks for daemons, but for the majority of HE TAC lists the banner needs to be there to be competitive. HE elites get rolled to easily with T3 and no armor. The HE book is tier 2 at best.

LOL.
Please, nobody feed this troll.

-Matt

Actually, I find attitudes like this to be the norm for a goodly number of HE players... It'll be fun times in a few years when they lose their shiny super crutch and can no longer keep their army on auto-pilot!

 Goldphish wrote:
What else is a HE supposed to bring? It sucks for daemons, but for the majority of HE TAC lists the banner needs to be there to be competitive. HE elites get rolled to easily with T3 and no armor. The HE book is tier 2 at best.

.....

>> saying that the BotWD is necessary for competitiveness
>> implying that HE are "easily rolled over"
>> talking about army tiers

Come on.

HE are a pretty good army with lots of diversity and strong magic. It's WHFB where most of the time, general skill is really important unlike 40k where it's mostly about having the better list.

You know, I don't understand why HE players think they "have" to take the BotWD to be competitive.

The fact of the matter is that the banner really only has a significant effect on a couple of armies. It affects everything in the DoC book and most of the artillery for Dwarves and Skaven. It has affect against some of the units in WOC. It protects against Magic Missiles and such, but who actually uses those spells on the big blocks that the BotWD goes on? Probably the best thing it does is protect the unit against some of the worst affects of miscasts.

It provides no protection from the things that cause the greatest amount of damage: the "6" spells and strong combat blocks.

Really, the only thing that makes the banner so obnoxious is that it isn't BSB only.

I disagree also that you need to take the banner to be competitive. There are plenty of HE players that I have seen do very well without the banner (check out some of the army blogs on Ulthuan.net) and a lot of comp packs that limit choices if you take it.

Having said this however, the banner is pretty amazing and in a tournament environment, why wouldn't you take it? People who play competitively are trying to win games after all.

BotWD is one of the biggest cheats in the game. I hope that they at least raise it at a proper cost, about 225 points.

626- I forgot about your damned itp. Sorry still speed bump it pin it with two fury units. Just be a donkey back at em

Yeah I play high elves when I use the banner its on a small (20-21 white lions possibly with a noble running off to the side as a flanking unit. Also the only elite without protection to get to combat is swordmasters. Also we are not chaos warriors don't exxpect a 3+ on foot soldiers it ain't gonna happen


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KeyserSoze wrote:
BotWD is one of the biggest cheats in the game. I hope that they at least raise it at a proper cost, about 225 points.

It is not a cheat for chrissakes. You really have no understanding of balance. If it was 75 pts no one would have a problem with it except you. The problem is in a unit it is The 39 model of 40 you kill meaning it takes 234 wounds give or take to get to it. If its on a bsb that number decreases to 12.


(All numbers after armor save cause I'm busy and don't have time to do the math if I'm off post a correction the post stands.)

yeah, even a 5 point increase would make it, well, if not balanced at least a lot more "fine"

Saldiven wrote:
You know, I don't understand why HE players think they "have" to take the BotWD to be competitive.

The fact of the matter is that the banner really only has a significant effect on a couple of armies. It affects everything in the DoC book and most of the artillery for Dwarves and Skaven. It has affect against some of the units in WOC. It protects against Magic Missiles and such, but who actually uses those spells on the big blocks that the BotWD goes on? Probably the best thing it does is protect the unit against some of the worst affects of miscasts.

It provides no protection from the things that cause the greatest amount of damage: the "6" spells and strong combat blocks.

Really, the only thing that makes the banner so obnoxious is that it isn't BSB only.

The Skillbanner's biggest gaff is the actually the Miscast protection in all honesty. It's simply a catch-all cop-out that allows HE's to 6-dice with wild abandon, as the only results they truly "fear" are losing the spell in question. Even getting sucked into the Realm of Chaos is a 'meh' risk overall as it requires a double bad result with the dice.
On the other hand, they get to trade losing a few power dice for likely nuking the most dangerous threat in their opponent's army... hardly a "risk" to miscasting anymore.

Or else you see "tactics" such as;
- Lv4 Shadow wizard tosses Mindrazor at the unit in front of his bunker. Miscasts. Lore attribute kicks in before the Miscast result is rolled, so Lv4 swaps places with a character in the Banner unit, gains the 2++ safety net + maybe nukes some enemy models too. Cast 1 more Shadow spell, replace Lv4 back into his bunker.

- Slam Crutchbanner unit into enemy unit. Miscast on purpose in order to try and drop an extra template onto your opponent before combat.

The two units you typically see the banner on, ie: Caucasian Lions or a Silverhelm bus, also share 1 common weakness: Magic!
The oh-so-skillful banner stomps all over that supposed "weakness", allowing the HE player to build a near foolproof hammer that most armies will thus have considerable trouble dealing with beyond playing a boring 'chaff-it and runaway!' game. Meanwhile, Daemons just get plain skullf***ed by it. (Imagine the poor Khorne player's so-called 'options!')

Add to this that HE's laugh at the 2 main Deathstar counters, namely Purplefun and Pit thanks to army wide I5 or higher. Only other Elves, Lizzies, Empire & Brets get access to Dwellers, while Daemons require Kairos. (and he's actually a rather mediocre choice in the 8th ed book)
Vamps, WoC, DoC, all Elves, Empire, Lizzies get access to Final Trans, so you can claim on average a 1/3rd of the unit per successful casting.
Orcs & Gobbos and Beasts get to eat that poop sandwich however, while Skaven must rely on Dreaded 13th. (so again, they get a poop sandwich vs. a Helm or DP bannerstar'ed unit)
Overall, even the unit erasing spells are not much of an option, as outside of Dwellers, (which is limited access and WL's don't fear as much), simply because Elves are near-immune to the nastiest ones.

At it's worst, you get the smug little HE's tooling up their gunline list with a Banner of Averlorn + BotWD Lion unit centering it... Bubble casting all the buffs at +8 and getting the option for a once per game double Banishment, supported by maxed Bolters, Sisters & Archers, with Reavers running the chaff rolls.


The MattWard Banner(tm) is easily tied with the DoC Portalglyph (also by St. Ward) as the two most stupidly broken magic items of 8th edition.

I've been wondering for a long time why Ward gets to write army books or codices anymore.

He just really isn't good at writing rules.

Saldiven wrote:
I've been wondering for a long time why Ward gets to write army books or codices anymore.

He just really isn't good at writing rules.

Did you buy the army book?

Eh.

Whining from Demon players aside, especially 626's little rant that was more about insulting HE players for taking an item as opposed to talking about the item itself, you already received the best advice in the thread.

Test or die. Whether it's Dwellers, Toughness Tests, or being turned to Gold, using those spells to thin out the Elves is the way to go.

Lastly, as long as the Demon meta involves Beasts of Nurgle spam, 2x Skullcannons, Choir Bombs, and stuffing Greater Demons in pants pockets, I'll grin and point out my WDB every time.

Without WDB, High Elves stand no chance against the "Demon List" that plays itself and pops up at every damn tournament and con.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Goldphish wrote:
What else is a HE supposed to bring? It sucks for daemons, but for the majority of HE TAC lists the banner needs to be there to be competitive. HE elites get rolled to easily with T3 and no armor. The HE book is tier 2 at best.

LOL.
Please, nobody feed this troll.

-Matt

Actually, I find attitudes like this to be the norm for a goodly number of HE players... It'll be fun times in a few years when they lose their shiny super crutch and can no longer keep their army on auto-pilot!

I completely missed this one.

"Golly, it sure will be fun in a few years when Beasts of Nurgle get nerfed to hell, Skull Cannons cost 245 points, and Demons can't just push a wall of flesh in a straight line to a win via auto-pilot!"

 Thunderfrog wrote:


Test or die. Whether it's Dwellers, Toughness Tests, or being turned to Gold, using those spells to thin out the Elves is the way to go.

Dwellers is the only real threat from the 'test or die' spells, all the Toughness test spells still allow for ward(banner) saves & Elves laugh at Initiative tests.

This is not how you control a BotWD unit if you're a Daemon player.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
Lastly, as long as the Demon meta involves Beasts of Nurgle spam, 2x Skullcannons, Choir Bombs, and stuffing Greater Demons in pants pockets, I'll grin and point out my WDB every time.

The difference being, only TFG's argue that Beasts aren't grossly OTT. Cacobombing was adopted mainly in response to the filthy banner.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
Without WDB, High Elves stand no chance against the "Demon List" that plays itself and pops up at every damn tournament and con.

This is a hilarious hyperbole and you know it... High Elves still have Phoenix Guard, Lv4's w/Book of Hoeth, High magic & stackable ward saves, Frosties, the best chaff & anti-chaff in the game, Loremaster, Alarielle + Banner of Averlorn, Light Covens!, Sisters, super cheap Bolters...

The Skillbanner is just a giant punch in the throat.

Khurgle Wall falls flat vs. Purplefun (which HE's take) or Lore of Shadow heavy armies (which HE's can take).
Cacobombing relies on going first.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Goldphish wrote:
What else is a HE supposed to bring? It sucks for daemons, but for the majority of HE TAC lists the banner needs to be there to be competitive. HE elites get rolled to easily with T3 and no armor. The HE book is tier 2 at best.

LOL.
Please, nobody feed this troll.

-Matt

Actually, I find attitudes like this to be the norm for a goodly number of HE players... It'll be fun times in a few years when they lose their shiny super crutch and can no longer keep their army on auto-pilot!

I completely missed this one.

"Golly, it sure will be fun in a few years when Beasts of Nurgle get nerfed to hell, Skull Cannons cost 245 points, and Demons can't just push a wall of flesh in a straight line to a win via auto-pilot!"

Okay, please show us again on the doll where the bad Daemon player touched you.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
I've been wondering for a long time why Ward gets to write army books or codices anymore.

He just really isn't good at writing rules.

Did you buy the army book?

I got the current DoC book as a birthday present. The last one of his books I purchased was the previous DoC book, which was a window into his balance issues in rules writing.

And, I do have to agree with Experiment on part of the last post. DoC players from the get go have said that BoN and Khannons were underpriced; however HE players just can't seem to understand why anyone has anything negative to say about the BotWD.

Seriously, the thing should have been pointed such that it was BSB only. 25 points is entirely too cheap for it.

Oh, and Thunderfrog, the current DoC book is, a whole, a nerfing over the last book. An army made under the previous book would, in my opinion, be far more competitive than any army you can make with the current book.

(Edited for grammar.)

Saldiven wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
I've been wondering for a long time why Ward gets to write army books or codices anymore.

He just really isn't good at writing rules.

Did you buy the army book?

I got the current DoC book as a birthday present. The last one of his books I purchased was the previous DoC book, which was a window into his balance issues in rules writing.

And, I do have to agree with Experiment on part of the last post. DoC players from the get go have said that BoN and Khannons were underpriced; however HE players just can't seem to understand why anyone has anything negative to say about the BotWD.

Seriously, the thing should have been pointed such that it was BSB only. 25 points is entirely too cheap for it.

Oh, and Thunderfrog, the current DoC book is, a whole, a nerfing over the last book. An army made under the previous book would, in my opinion, be far more competitive than any army you can make with the current book.

(Edited for grammar.)

The Banner is actually 50pts, but absolutely agree, anyone with a shred of decency and self respect will readily admit that it's far too good at that price... 55pts would have been bearable, but 75pts is probably more 'fair' across the board.
The Miscast shenanigans alone are enough to warrant such a cost, let alone how easy it would still be to combine it with multiple characters in the same unit to force the BSB into the second rank and thus keep him out of reach until at least 1 front rank character cops it.


I think on the whole our old book "Tournament" list(s) would still be just as obnoxious as our current book though... Siren Standard, cheap Loremasters, super cheap B.Letters, old Flamers, Ld-bombing, Slaany magic... still right up there with our current 2-3 obnoxious "Tournament" lists.

The more important point however is true - we'd have far more list variation and viable options overall than our current poop-fest of a book which tends to be either 'stupidly good' or else bottom rung.

Saldiven wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
I've been wondering for a long time why Ward gets to write army books or codices anymore.

He just really isn't good at writing rules.

Did you buy the army book?

I got the current DoC book as a birthday present. The last one of his books I purchased was the previous DoC book, which was a window into his balance issues in rules writing.

And, I do have to agree with Experiment on part of the last post. DoC players from the get go have said that BoN and Khannons were underpriced; however HE players just can't seem to understand why anyone has anything negative to say about the BotWD.

Seriously, the thing should have been pointed such that it was BSB only. 25 points is entirely too cheap for it.

Oh, and Thunderfrog, the current DoC book is, a whole, a nerfing over the last book. An army made under the previous book would, in my opinion, be far more competitive than any army you can make with the current book.

(Edited for grammar.)

I've said, on numerous occasions in this forum, that BotWD should have been BSB only. Making it untouchable via unit standard was a terrible design. I make absolutely no argument there, though I do question whether or not it's half as good against any other book as it is against Demons and now Wood Elves. (Enchanted Arrows). My problem is when Demon players accuse high elf players of having either no skill, no conscience, or crutchlisting when they bring it and then turn around and complain about how bad / one dimeonsional their book is and how they have no choice but to Caco-bomb or Nurgle-spam.

If BotWD is 25pts undercost, and BoN are 15 points undercost, isn't it an even swap in cheapness for you to field 6 beasts in a unit and 2 as flankers as it is for me to bring the banner? Or two Skull Cannons? Should I make posts about your Crutchcannons? Should I proclaim that every demon win is luck based because of good rolls on the RoC? The Demon players in this thread are just as guilty of hyperbole as I am.

(Admittedly, an Elf player can tailor a specific list for fighting Khurgle, which is an amazing all comers list.)

I never said that the banner wasn't stupid. The banner is under cost and promotes deathstar units which I don't enjoy playing in the slightest. The HE book just isn't that great against top tier armies without taking Book/Banner or both. Every HE list looks the same for a reason, the book is pretty inflexible at the highest competitive level.

High elf book rocks

I fight my friend all the time, he used to run mono khorne, then switched to all gods after the first battle.

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, HE just murder demons.

Phoenix Guard with flaming banner takes care of nurgle, sea guard can destroy horrors and khorne demons ultimate weakness T3 models for ultra expensive being mowed down by arrows.

Skull cannons are great for move and fire, but eventually get destroyed by rogue frostheart phoenix.

This is my opinion.

Using portalglyph on himself, which, I would like to point out, I came up with as a strategy in YMDC, isn't very good. So you can remove from play 500pts and have a 2000pt army vs. a 2500pt army. Most times, you aren't going to want to do that...

Banner should never have been magic attacks. They didn't think it through. It would still be a solid item without that. MOST items in the individual army books aren't godlike. They are flavor. Very rarely auto-include like the 7th ed books. You'd have to be stupid not to take BoTWD, however.

Saying 3 spells are THE counter is essentially saying there's no counter. No one should be forced into taking such a narrow range of options just to have a chance. It's not fun. It's not strategic. It's the most extreme version of rock scissors paper. Nearly everything in this game has multiple counters to allow flexibility and personal play style.

If you want a laugh, dig up the old Teclis threads from 7th. Do a word replace on Teclis and BoTWD and you'll hear pretty much exactly the same arguments.

Some people want unbalanced. I don't get it, personally. I was playing a historical war game not long ago and some units got nerfed and one guy was screaming bloody murder. And he was like, those things were better in real life. And we were all like, yeah, but this is a game. And a game is supposed to be fun and competitive. If I want to kick a puppy I can go buy a puppy and kick it.

While we are on the topic of identifying trolls...

KeyserSoze wrote:
BotWD is one of the biggest cheats in the game. I hope that they at least raise it at a proper cost, about 225 points.

Refrain from feeding this one also.

Basically saying it shouldn't exit. And it shouldn't. I have no idea what it should be costed. It's other abilities are nice. It's ability to shut down an entire army book has no price. And the lol-face ability to put it on a rank and file member who can't be challenged.

Oh don't get me wrong, it's a ridiculous item. I play High Elves and can honestly say I've not used it once, but then again I don't play tournaments. Of course I'd use it if I played tournaments.

Making it so magic attacks in close combat can effect the unit would probably be enough of a fix.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Basically saying it shouldn't exit. And it shouldn't. I have no idea what it should be costed. It's other abilities are nice. It's ability to shut down an entire army book has no price. And the lol-face ability to put it on a rank and file member who can't be challenged.

I fully agree. I am sad that the BotWD did not get ANY changes or restrictions in current WHFB rules but finding a majority just wasn't possible. It's an extremely unfair and overpowered item and should not be a part of the game.

Swedish comp at least harshly limits its use, but ETC downright failed on this one.

In all honesty against armies that aren't DoC it isn't unfair and unbalanced to anywhere near the same degree. Probably still slightly under-costed, but not game-wreckingly unfair.

Consider also that it is still ridiculously easy for Phoenix Guard to achieve what the Banner provides against spell damage even if the BoTWD was nerved or cease to exist. Granted PG aren't White Lions, but you get what I'm saying.

Agreed that the banner is not the best in terms of in-game balance but I love how all the Daemon players can suddenly get on their high horse an edition after they had some of the most broken stuff in the game (ala Banner of Sundering, Epidemus - still broken??? etc). Just funny is all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the actual post and what to do about it....

Avoid would be my bet if playing Daemons. As well as feeding it chaff units.

 John Rainbow wrote:
Agreed that the banner is not the best in terms of in-game balance but I love how all the Daemon players can suddenly get on their high horse an edition after they had some of the most broken stuff in the game (ala Banner of Sundering, Epidemus - still broken??? etc). Just funny is all.

If you went to the DoC forums and looked back, the DoC players admitted the book was poorly written, overpowered and unbalanced. They had their own fan-dex ideas that they actually sent to GW as suggestions for things to do to change the book to make it more balanced internally and externally.

Unfortunately, GW made the genius decision to have Ward re-write the book.

I think it's all settled, then: Daemons should use chaff and Test-Or-Die spells to deal with the Banner of the World Dragon. Dwellers will be best on Silver Helms, Dwellers and Final Transmutation work the same on White Lions.

Everyone seems to agree, more or less, on the rest.

- the Banner should cost more.

- Daemons have their own super-good stuff. The Banner is far, far more broken against Daemons, while Beasts, Khannons, and 'Bombing are more all-around awesomesauce.

I think we can put this thread to rest then, no? Unless people want to vent s'more, I guess.

 John Rainbow wrote:
Agreed that the banner is not the best in terms of in-game balance but I love how all the Daemon players can suddenly get on their high horse an edition after they had some of the most broken stuff in the game (ala Banner of Sundering, Epidemus - still broken??? etc). Just funny is all.

I hate when people even remotely make this kind of comment because it's a ridiculous logical fallacy. You're not balancing to past editions. You're balancing to the current edition. Last ed HE had an OP magic phase because of items and Teclis and fortress and stuff. So you don't go, okay, since your 7th ed magic phase was OP, in 8th, you get -2PD and an auto miscast every turn. No. You throw away the old book and make it balanced to the current game. You don't punish people who may never have played HE or are just joining the game. I don't get a speeding ticket for being in a blue car just because someone in a blue car sped 2 hours ago.

I think we can put this thread to rest then, no? Unless people want to vent s'more, I guess.

It's a discussion forum. You don't have to discuss if you don't want to.

We are highly likely to change the banner to grant Magic Resistance (3) or even (4). Had our usual test runs and are satisfied with the results.

 Sigvatr wrote:
We are highly likely to change the banner to grant Magic Resistance (3) or even (4). Had our usual test runs and are satisfied with the results.

I know I don't play over there, but might I suggest that it be a little better than that? MR is kind of, well, crappy in the current edition (speaking as a Khorne DoC player). While 50 points for MR(3) seems to be an appropriate pricing, MR is of such situational use that the BotWD would likely go from always present to never present. Not really sure what to suggest without putting it back into the "too powerful" side, though.

We discussed it a lot and it's the best we came up with. Banning it would not solve the problem it poses, but working against all magical attacks of any sort is far too strong. That's why ultimatively we decided on in giving Magic Resistance - test or die still works yet it provides a solid resistance vs. magic that causes wounds. And 50 pts is fairly priced ioo.

What If it was just a 3+ ward, I have used the banner against my buddies who play demons and it can be brutal. I also think tho that it's only 1 unit and a general can, as stated before, use chaff, terrain and other tactics to defeat the rest of the army.

The problem there is assuming that the HE player is incompetent. You can't just expect one player to pull off a chaff-spamming, unit-dodging movement masterclass when his opponent is also playing an active part in the battle. For every unit of 5 Furies that the Daemon player sacrifices to delay the 'Star, the High Elf player can pull 5 Reavers (And from Core, no less). For every Beast of Nurgle, the other player can almost afford a complete Bolt Thrower.
You are taking an army with no armour, no Core chaff and very limited BS-shooting, and asking it to dance about an army with almost free access to M9 Fast Cavalry, massed anti-infantry firepower and a deathstar that might have the ability to teleport anyway. Asking the Daemon player to pull off these stunts just reinforces the fact that the 'finesse, elite and hard-to-wield' Elf army can waltz upfield and smash his brick into your face repeatedly.

Mozzamanx wrote:
The problem there is assuming that the HE player is incompetent. You can't just expect one player to pull off a chaff-spamming, unit-dodging movement masterclass when his opponent is also playing an active part in the battle. For every unit of 5 Furies that the Daemon player sacrifices to delay the 'Star, the High Elf player can pull 5 Reavers (And from Core, no less). For every Beast of Nurgle, the other player can almost afford a complete Bolt Thrower.
You are taking an army with no armour, no Core chaff and very limited BS-shooting, and asking it to dance about an army with almost free access to M9 Fast Cavalry, massed anti-infantry firepower and a deathstar that might have the ability to teleport anyway. Asking the Daemon player to pull off these stunts just reinforces the fact that the 'finesse, elite and hard-to-wield' Elf army can waltz upfield and smash his brick into your face repeatedly.

Not even. There is *1* unit the demon player must avoid. Not the whole army. Furies will wipe a unit of reavers on the charge.

RBT's are crap against demons. Yea, you could get lucky and smack a GD with a few wounds, but if he's standing behind his other units you need a 6 to hit, 4 to wound, him to fail his ward save, and then roll d6 wounds.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
The problem there is assuming that the HE player is incompetent. You can't just expect one player to pull off a chaff-spamming, unit-dodging movement masterclass when his opponent is also playing an active part in the battle. For every unit of 5 Furies that the Daemon player sacrifices to delay the 'Star, the High Elf player can pull 5 Reavers (And from Core, no less). For every Beast of Nurgle, the other player can almost afford a complete Bolt Thrower.
You are taking an army with no armour, no Core chaff and very limited BS-shooting, and asking it to dance about an army with almost free access to M9 Fast Cavalry, massed anti-infantry firepower and a deathstar that might have the ability to teleport anyway. Asking the Daemon player to pull off these stunts just reinforces the fact that the 'finesse, elite and hard-to-wield' Elf army can waltz upfield and smash his brick into your face repeatedly.

Not even. There is *1* unit the demon player must avoid. Not the whole army. Furies will wipe a unit of reavers on the charge.

RBT's are crap against demons. Yea, you could get lucky and smack a GD with a few wounds, but if he's standing behind his other units you need a 6 to hit, 4 to wound, him to fail his ward save, and then roll d6 wounds.

High Elves have the best anti-chaff abilities in the game alongside their Dark kin...

If you can't clear the limited amount of Daemonic chaff when you have options including Bolters, Reavers, Sisters, Archers, min/maxed Silverhelm darts, Eagles and your entire magic phase, then you're doing it wrong.
Mono or heavy Slaanesh armies are more problematic due to all that M10 and the likelihood of Caco, but Khurgle Wall is brutally predictable in how it moves.

Note too that most High Elves arguments claiming the banner isn't that much of a problem for DoC, also tend to happily assume the banner unit is being played in a vacuum with nothing else around supporting...
In practice, the unit is typically well anchored with nearby supports such as chaff cleaners, (Reavers/Sisters/Frostie), and another decent fighty unit such as Phoenix Guard or Helms/DP's or Frostie. And if needs be, there's always the backfield of Bolters & typically some Archers to help out.



Most Daemon players I think agree that:
1. Beasts need to be either 75-100pts each, or have their current abilities scaled back to better reflect their far too cheap cost. (personally I'd argue for 80-85pts/model as about right)
2. Khannons should be around 160 or so pts a piece. 180 is pushing it, while 200 is a bit too costly considering how often it gets eaten alive by the Reign of Comedy table.
3. Caco Choir needs to lose the AoE and stick to just a range increase. Give the AoE bubble to Acquiescence.
4. Eppi's table is pants-on-head stupid. Like BotWD levels of stupid! A 6" range like its 40k version would help bring some much needed sanity to it.
5. The Portalglyph is a farce and needs to be re-written to prevent the d.bag abuses it grants.

Most High Elf players however it seems argue their banner is just fine and that all DoC players just need to "learn tactics" and accept games of pure 'runawayhammer'.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
It's a discussion forum. You don't have to discuss if you don't want to.

dis·cus·sion
disˈkəSHən
noun
the action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas.

I just assumed that, given the last page or so consisting of a few basic ideas, repeated and reworded over and over again, that the purpose behind this thread, specifically, had been achieved.
But the stuff that followed, about possible revisions to the Banner and specific lists/units that Daemons can expect to face is all both new and relevant.

You don't have to type. If this thread angers you or bores you, don't click on it. There's plenty of threads that I think are dead horses. It's not my job/right/responsibility/goal in life to tell everyone they need to stop posting. You stated it was done. People disagreed with you, clearly, as they are still posting. If they want to retype the same posts over and over and it makes them happy, you know, no one is getting hurt. Probably at least 25% of this forum has duplicate answers somewhere. It's a ticker tape.

What If it was just a 3+ ward

There's no such thing as JUST a 3+ ward. That would be way more powerful. Right now the banner obliterates one army. Unquestionably. A blanket 3+ ward would obliterate all armies. Only a handful of units in the game start with 3+ wards, and it's usually lords or units who can't join other units. With a 3+ you could forgo your Lore of High Magic and have something more useful, not needing Shield of Saphery and you could have your white lions with 3+ wards in a super spell bunker. That would be like the bestest death star ever.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

What If it was just a 3+ ward

There's no such thing as JUST a 3+ ward. That would be way more powerful. Right now the banner obliterates one army. Unquestionably. A blanket 3+ ward would obliterate all armies. Only a handful of units in the game start with 3+ wards, and it's usually lords or units who can't join other units. With a 3+ you could forgo your Lore of High Magic and have something more useful, not needing Shield of Saphery and you could have your white lions with 3+ wards in a super spell bunker. That would be like the bestest death star ever.

I think the idea was, "what if BotWD was only a 3++ vs. all Magical Attacks."

It would be somewhat less obnoxious at only a 3++, and also fall in line with the High Elves own rules around High Magic and buffing their existing ward saves. A 3++ means you're instantly doubling the damage that unit receives, so while still rather ruthless vs. DoC, it wouldn't be quite the complete clusterfeth that it actually is.

White Lions would still be utterly evil, but you could use flank/rear charges more effectively to simply force relevant wounds through pure weight of attacks.
The 2++ however makes that pretty moot... hell, you can throw 1200+pts worth of Daemons at the banner currently and still bounce off of it having dealt nothing beyond some cosmetic damage!

Sry lol I meant nerfing it to 3+ ward vs magic and magical attacks, maybe a 5 point increase in points, I always take mine on a BSB anyways but yea I see the advantage of putting it with a unit that makes it overpowered...

 DukeRustfield wrote:
You don't have to type. If this thread angers you or bores you, don't click on it. There's plenty of threads that I think are dead horses. It's not my job/right/responsibility/goal in life to tell everyone they need to stop posting. You stated it was done. People disagreed with you, clearly, as they are still posting. If they want to retype the same posts over and over and it makes them happy, you know, no one is getting hurt. Probably at least 25% of this forum has duplicate answers somewhere. It's a ticker tape.

Easy there, big shooter. All I did was point out that there was no new information being presented. Plenty of threads get shut down when they end up going around in circles. Figured it couldn't hurt to point out that, hey, these points have been made. Seems like a lot of people jump in with their two cents before looking over all of the previous comments.
And then some new stuff was posted, so that works, too!

As for balancing the Banner...it's tough. Putting it at 55+pts would go a huge way toward making it fair. Making it not apply to Magic Attacks would basically make it MR5, right? And at 15pts/point of MR still equals = 75pts. But would people take it?

If it were MR5 and also kept the 2+ ward against Miscast then yes, it would be a fine purchase for the army. Honestly I'd be happy if it kept the same cost with those rules. High Elves retain their magical superiority without axing an entire army in the face.
Alternatively, I don't have much to complain about with its old rules. Total immunity to magic spells, beneficial or otherwise.

Mozzamanx wrote:
If it were MR5 and also kept the 2+ ward against Miscast then yes, it would be a fine purchase for the army. Honestly I'd be happy if it kept the same cost with those rules. High Elves retain their magical superiority without axing an entire army in the face.
Alternatively, I don't have much to complain about with its old rules. Total immunity to magic spells, beneficial or otherwise.

I think this has a lot to do with it.

Seems to me Matt Wards decisions was something like..



Ward: People say the Banner is a broke item. I'll remove the complete immunity but give a ward save instead. It's not nearly as good now, so I'll only charge 50 points.

Of course, he would have been wrong.

I think in order for "as is" to be acceptable, they should have made the unit carrying it immune to friendly spells and change the 2++ to a 3++. I'd not have a problem with that for 50 pts. .

Mozzamanx wrote:
If it were MR5 and also kept the 2+ ward against Miscast.

Almost uncounterable borderline miscast immunity is a giant no-go. Especially at that cost.

Yeah. As I stated above:

MR1 is 15pts, MR2 is 30pts, MR3 is 45pts...so MR4 would be 60pts, and MR5 would be 75pts.

We could say, hey, High Elves are supposed to be good at magic. And, hey, MR isn't very good as-is. Fine drop it 10pts/ Even 15pts. That's still a 60pt banner.

You want Miscast protection? Look at the Earthing Rod. Tons of people take it, it's one use only, and it's 35pts.

Warpsolution wrote:
Yeah. As I stated above:

MR1 is 15pts, MR2 is 30pts, MR3 is 45pts...so MR4 would be 60pts, and MR5 would be 75pts.

We could say, hey, High Elves are supposed to be good at magic. And, hey, MR isn't very good as-is. Fine drop it 10pts/ Even 15pts. That's still a 60pt banner.

You want Miscast protection? Look at the Earthing Rod. Tons of people take it, it's one use only, and it's 35pts.

I guess you're not part of lots of people. It's 25 points.

-Matt

Whoops! Ha. Yeah, I'm not. I just don't have a lot of issues with Miscasts, usually. Probably because I don't 6-dice spells very often.
Either way, wanting MR5 and some kind of Miscast protection for 50pts isn't fair. If the Banner let you, say, add or subtract 1 from the miscast table, I'd say 80pts would be more than reasonable.

Well, just to throw out some spice:

-An MR banner that is 50pts or less is going to cost X.
-An MR banner that costs 51pts or more is going to cost X-Y.

Because the second banner can only be carried by a BSB. Whereas MR can be given to any hero/lord and the 51+ is only one model in the army and it precludes him from taking any other items. So that is a pretty big penalty.

Warpsolution wrote:
Whoops! Ha. Yeah, I'm not. I just don't have a lot of issues with Miscasts, usually. Probably because I don't 6-dice spells very often.
Either way, wanting MR5 and some kind of Miscast protection for 50pts isn't fair. If the Banner let you, say, add or subtract 1 from the miscast table, I'd say 80pts would be more than reasonable.

If I were to re-write it, I'd take a page out of the O&G book.
All magic items in BSB count as mundane items of the same type. Then either MR, or maybe just a nullzone type effect, "all spells targeting the unit (friend or foe), are at -5 to cast. If this brings the modified casting value to less than three, then the casting wizards counts as having broken his concentration.
It's still nice against daemons, as it takes away killing blow (blood letters) and poison attacks (plague bearers), and makes the Cacophonic Choir much harder to pull off (effectively needing a 29 to cast the boosted). It's unlikely to go off at all without 6 dicing and getting unstoppable.
The banner of the world dragon has always been (prior to this book) a defensive item that wizards don't want to be near.

Of course, daemons need some fixes too.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Because the second banner can only be carried by a BSB. So that is a pretty big penalty.

True! That's a hard penalty to price for. I mean, you so rarely see those banners taken, because, no matter what the benefits, they're usually not worth losing your BSB over. The Dwarf's Master Rune of Grungi is the only acception, and that's because it offers as good of defense to your BSB as normal equipment would.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The banner of the world dragon has always been (prior to this book) a defensive item that wizards don't want to be near.

This. Right here. The old Banner was cool. Hard to use, but pretty damn cool.

So I've read through this thread a while back. And it's still on the front page so I figured I'd add my two cents.

Has anyone considered the idea that GW thinks it's balanced? The High Elf book's been out for awhile. There isn't an errata or FAQ out that addresses the issues being brought up (that I know of). On top of that they (presumably) know what people think of the stuff Matt Ward is putting out, and approve it anyways.

Assuming the above is true, than in theory the BotWD is EXACTLY what GW intended. It sucks for daemon players, though you do have some things that might work, such as chaff or test/die spells. Everyone else just has to kill ONE unit the old fashioned way. How easy or hard that is of course may vary, but elf infantry is at best T3 5+ armor (unbuffed, and buffs can be dispelled).

Arguably daemons are the army high elves need the protection most against. For everyone else it's protection from damage spells, and characters are functionally immune to most challenges. Daemons hit like a ton of bricks, and elves have a bad combination of squishy and low numbers. Does the banner go to far? Possibly. Are there ways around it? Yup, several were posted in this thread. I admit that none of them are fool proof, and think that better solutions may present themselves if people keep working at it. But in the light that GW hasn't changed it, or said anything about it, it's doing what they want it to do.

So Daemon players you've got a few options about it.
1. Listen to the intelligent people who are trying to find ways around it/mitigate it.
2. Join the group of foul mouthed trolls who can't bear to think that *GASP* other armies get great options too!!!!!
3. Quit Daemons, or the game in general.

I'd prefer to see people in the first one honestly. As for everyone who's chosen the 2nd, well sucks for you. It's legal and it'll get used until it gets changed. Expect to keep seeing it.

No new FAQs have been released in quite a while for any army. And there are clearly typos and just plain nonsensical and contradictory things in various books.

One that comes to mind is Lizardmen, which has no FAQ whatsoever. The Terradon guy has a special rule that talks about his unit of Terradon riders. But he can't join Terradons per the BRB. That hasn't been corrected and unless they just felt like being stupid, it's obviously wrong.

So Daemon players you've got a few options about it.
1. Listen to the intelligent people.
2. Join the group of foul mouthed trolls
3. Quit Daemons

You were making a point until this. Basically you're saying you have to be a foul-mouthed troll to think it's broken or quit the game. And those brilliant people who think it's not broken are shining examples of humanity everyone should follow.

I.e., you're being a foul-mouthed troll.

 Mmmpi wrote:

So Daemon players you've got a few options about it.
1. Listen to the intelligent people who are trying to find ways around it/mitigate it.
2. Join the group of foul mouthed trolls who can't bear to think that *GASP* other armies get great options too!!!!!
3. Quit Daemons, or the game in general.

I'd prefer to see people in the first one honestly. As for everyone who's chosen the 2nd, well sucks for you. It's legal and it'll get used until it gets changed. Expect to keep seeing it.

Congrats on proving you have little to no understanding of how stupidly borked this one item makes a game between HE's & DoC...

1. Test or die spells are pointless vs. High Elves. 2 of them target initiative, which elf players laugh at, the other can only be gotten by a rather mediocre on the whole Special Character who's rather prone to getting shot to bits by Elf armies. (especially High & Wood Elves)
Chaffing sounds super easy, until you realise that HE's have a much better chaff & chaff removal game... and all the daemonic chaff comes from the Special section to boot!

2. I'll remember this the next time High Elf players b**** endlessly that Beasts of Nurgle & "Skill" Cannons are apparently the most heinously broken things in the game.
There's great options and undercosted options like Beasts & Khannons. Then there's outright broken gak like BotWD which simply removes all fun & skill from the game.

3. I have quit my DoC as a Fantasy army for now actually, because of too many donkey-cave HE players continuously shoving that giant poop sandwich down my throat every damn game... and also typically combo'ing it alongside the likes of an Alarielle Light Coven, or gunline or double Frostchicken build.
There's no point in playing that farce of a game. There's no tactics or "skill" of any kind, and definitely no fun to be had.


And seriously, if you think that High Elves need their Wardbanner to stand a chance against DoC, then the problem isn't with Daemons being too 'uber or HE's being too squishy. High Elves have plenty of tools to put the screws to Daemons without relying on their moronic crutch.
Sisters, Frosthearts, Bolters, an amazing Core section, ASF + Elf stats, Lions, stackable ward saves on units, all 8 BRB Lores, etc...

High Elves have an amazing core section? I wasn't aware that two choices of infantry, and a choice of two cav options was good. Because, in my book, that's just flat out mediocre. And, to be honest, in the real threats to demon players, you won't see anything bar reavers in core. Because demons are ridiculously durable against S3 shots. Simply because wards are a thing.

As for ASF, you can neuter that with some of the book. I.E. Slaanesh. Or high Toughness. I.E. Nurgle. Khorne does pretty well against White Lions and Swordsmasters, and Beasts just love Phoenix Guard.

As for the lores, Empire get all eight lores. And their entire book is undercosted. You don't see anyone moaning about them. To be frank, Empire is the best book against Demons. And they don't have the banner.

The Demon Book is pretty good. You just have to think when you're going up against High Elves. Or, and this is just a suggestion, don't throw your entire army at the unit with the Banner.

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

Seems to be some misunderstanding about the three points I listed. My fault for not being clearer in my explanation. I never meant them to be equally valid ideas. It was a run down of what I've seen in every thread that has someone mention BotWD, even the space marine ones. No I don't think you have to be a foul mouthed troll to think it's a bad match up or overpowered, I'M not an idiot. My point was, what does swearing at random people on the internet accomplish? Option one at least has you working on it. Option two just make more problems. Since when does GW actually listen to us on what we think needs to be fixed? Cursing out people for what they put in their armies does jack. What, you going to do? Shame them into it by swearing at them in an easily ignored post? So yeah, don't be an idiot and try to think your way through it. It probably won't be around forever, because daemons aside it's a good banner, which means GW will change it. As for 3, it's ALWAYS an option. Isn't a good one, but it's there. Really though, I think GW does put this stuff out on purpose. Maybe in their play-testing they did find ways around it that we just haven't seen yet (not that I think that THAT's likely), or they didn't test it using a death star, or maybe it did everything people are having issues with, and they said, "Good for the game" and released it.

And yeah, it's a crutch. A hard to remove crutch at that, though it's effects outside of a HE/DoC match up are far less magnified. As was said earlier, most spell casters aren't blasting blocks of infantry with magic missiles and it doesn't stop them from buffing the unit fighting against the banner. So most of it's interaction is units with magic attacks, Chaos knights, some wood elves, and some undead, and a good portion of combat characters, and some artillery, like dwarves. Against most of them, it's just irritating.

As for the spells. Yeah I tests are easy for HE to make. But you're forcing them from across the board, not in close combat where they can swing back. As another alternative, (and as I say this I'm acknowledging that I'm not as familiar with the DoC book), to use a fairly decent sized block of infantry, something relatively tough, or with a good save? Basically, instead of throwing hard to get Chaff at the unit with the banner, use a tar pit. Something that can suck up attacks without dying too fast, either through numbers, resilience, or both. Granted, this is DoC, and such a block won't be the cheapest in points, but it's got to be cheaper than a 40+ death star made of 15 point models. So if it's possible to tie up, than like in the chaff plan, go after objectives, or the rest of the army.

And to 626, if you talk to your regular opponents the way to talk to everyone here, I can see why they try to make broken lists against you. Maybe if you tone down the invective a bit, you might find people are willing to play friendlier style games against you.

 Mmmpi wrote:

As for the spells. Yeah I tests are easy for HE to make. But you're forcing them from across the board, not in close combat where they can swing back. As another alternative, (and as I say this I'm acknowledging that I'm not as familiar with the DoC book), to use a fairly decent sized block of infantry, something relatively tough, or with a good save?

Daemons of chaos do not have that unit.
They lack anything with a decent save, or that is cheap. Tough exists in only 2 unit, beast of nurgle and plague drones. Both of which lack static combat res that is needed to keep from vaporizing when they run into a unit with a 2++ save. Worse, both are init 2, making them very vulnerable to test or die.
Cheapest would be daemonettes, which at 9 points fight like slightly worse than high elf spearmen; who are also 9 points.
Daemonettes can get ASF from a T3 5++ save hero, for 140 points. Doesn't really stack up to 50 points for a 2++.

If daemon of chaos had something like, blue horrors (zombie like stats, without special rules), for like 5 points, then the banner wouldn't be such a problem, you would have a core choice to tank the banner block.
Sadly, just about any high elf unit stacks up against any daemon core unit and come out alright. It's just that high elves get much better synergy with characters and banners than daemons do; so what starts out as a slight advantage to high elves, ends with a massive advantage to high elves.
I've seen games of nothing but high elf core (and required general) absolutely trounce daemons. (like when 40 archers kill 10 bloodletters in melee).

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Because demons are ridiculously durable against S3 shots. Simply because wards are a thing.

You don't use wards vs. S3. You use armor and toughness, which are vastly more effective. Wards are only cost-effective vs. high S attacks. Look at Core Dwarfs with HA and T4 at 50% cheaper than Daemons with their T3 and Ward 5+. Dwarfs come out so far ahead it isn't even funny. Now, if you compared them to some GW-wielding unit then DoC would win. But vs. HE, the ward is far too expensive. Infinite HE Spearmen can go toe-to-toe with infinite DoC core just because they are so much cheaper, have a shield and LA, ASF, fight in extra rank(s). I'm not saying they will slaughter them by any means, but they sure as hell don't need a 2++ save, they don't need a save at all other than what they have.

Bloodletters are not the 7th ed versions which trounced nearly everything and which comprised 90% of all DoC armies. If you think DoC core is all that, just run it against some cheapy RNF from nearly any army. Just pile them against each other and start rolling dice and see what happens. In theory it's neato they have magic weapons and wards on core. But compare them to like, lizardmen who have high armor and great LD and 2 attacks on core. DoC has no choice but to take elite core that are only good at fighting other elites. Cheap core beats them for cost.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

They don't need it against any army.

It's just good against every army.

Saldiven wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

They don't need it against any army.

It's just good against every army.

Oh, they absolutely need it. At least in competitive play. The book forces you into a bannerblock and two frosties in that regard. White Lions, Swordsmasters and Dragon princes have a glaring weakness to direct damage and magic missile spells. The banner just takes that away.


Furthermore, against armies like Dark Elves, the banner is just useless. As the threats aren't magical.

Wasn't there a thread here a while ago about KB vs the banner? That Bloodletters with KB killed the elves before they got a save because they were slain instantly, because they weren't wounded it didn't activate the banner, thus killing them dead? It might be wrong but I thought I saw it somewhere

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

If daemon of chaos had something like, blue horrors (zombie like stats, without special rules), for like 5 points, then the banner wouldn't be such a problem, you would have a core choice to tank the banner block.
Sadly, just about any high elf unit stacks up against any daemon core unit and come out alright. It's just that high elves get much better synergy with characters and banners than daemons do; so what starts out as a slight advantage to high elves, ends with a massive advantage to high elves.
I've seen games of nothing but high elf core (and required general) absolutely trounce daemons. (like when 40 archers kill 10 bloodletters in melee).

Sadly I don't think even a Blue Horror type unit would work all that well... The problem with big cheap infantry tarpits is that they're a giant PitA to move about as the get too unwieldy. (such a hypothetical unit is likely going to be 'Goblin sized' with 40-50+ bodies since they'll die in droves and explode another 5-7'ish easily on DI tests) They'd also almost certainly keep the standard M4, thus giving the movement advantage firmly to the HE's.
Vs. a giant brick of 30-40 Lions w/Banner you'd probably be able to catch them and pin them down for a while, but the units I've continuously had problems avoiding are the 20-25 strong Lions or the Cav bus builds. Both of which tend to chuckle at large M4 infantry bricks.

Taking a unit of 2-3 Beasts and conga lining them works wonders, if they don't get Boltered/magic'ed to death first. (stupid Banishment!)
Hell, I've even seen a local Daemon player do that with a unit of Plaguebearers! It looks absolutely stupid seeing 25 guys in a strait line, but it did the trick in the end, though the HE player whined the entire time about borderline cheating...

Furries work, provided they can avoid the likes of Shem's or Ring of Fury or any real direct damage spell.
Screamers can make-do, but typically like to be trying to remove those annoying Reavers, Sisters, Bolters and/or Eagles with their fly-by strikes or charges.
Cacobombing is the outright best solution, but ends up drawing cries of OP cheddar from pretty much every HE player.

Going strait-up mono-Slaanesh or Slaanesh heavy in an MSU set-up is the ideal way to 'deal' with the HE's and their Crutchbanner gimmicks. Sprinkle in a few Beasts and maybe a Khannon if you expect/see Frosties regularly and go too it.
The game is still pretty boring as the DoC player just feeds the banner unit and runs away while picking off that they can, while the HE player doesn't have any big pts-heavy targets to go after beyond a possible Keeper and 1-2 Slaanesh Grinders.



@Mmmpi: I have tried multiple times to politely ask the local HE players to not bring their 'A-lists' vs. my poor Tzeentch Daemons, at the very least to please leave the BotWD at home because it makes for a mind numbingly boring game. They just laugh and play the "it's codex legal - deal with it and l2p noob!"
They do this to every DoC player on the grounds that we deserve whatever we get because we apparently broke 7th edition.

My army was never designed as a "Tournament" army, not to mention it got hosed badly by the new DoC book itself. And I'm not about to go out and buy a bunch of models I don't like one bit just to play a still rather one-sided match-up.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

They don't need it against any army.

It's just good against every army.

Oh, they absolutely need it. At least in competitive play. The book forces you into a bannerblock and two frosties in that regard. White Lions, Swordsmasters and Dragon princes have a glaring weakness to direct damage and magic missile spells. The banner just takes that away.


Furthermore, against armies like Dark Elves, the banner is just useless. As the threats aren't magical.

BS.

The book doesn't force you into anything.

The BotWD is a crutch.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Oh, they absolutely need it. At least in competitive play. The book forces you into a bannerblock and two frosties in that regard. White Lions, Swordsmasters and Dragon princes have a glaring weakness to direct damage and magic missile spells. The banner just takes that away.
Furthermore, against armies like Dark Elves, the banner is just useless. As the threats aren't magical.

MR also solves that direct damage problem, as does the high magic lore attribute.
You don't need the banner to shrug off 2D6 S4 hits.

-Matt

therealsuperman wrote:
Wasn't there a thread here a while ago about KB vs the banner? That Bloodletters with KB killed the elves before they got a save because they were slain instantly, because they weren't wounded it didn't activate the banner, thus killing them dead? It might be wrong but I thought I saw it somewhere

I had brought it up a while ago, but KB allows a ward. The banner gives a ward.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


The Demon Book is pretty good. You just have to think when you're going up against High Elves. Or, and this is just a suggestion, don't throw your entire army at the unit with the Banner.

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

I don't understand the bits underlined, in one part you are saying that Daemons should stop moaning and learn how to handle the banner block using their army, E.G think about their army build, then the next line down you are saying that High Elves don't have to think about there army build because they *NEED* this one item and they *NEED* Frost Phoenix's. This is a very hypocritical way to think about it isn't it? That Daemons need to L2P and avoid this massive block (Which usually contains a good 500pts at least of an army, limiting the amount of VP's scored) and have to think about there list when coming up against High Elves, then to say that High Elves need to do this certain list or they are ''unplayable'' competitively (I call BS on that, as a competitive Wood Elf player since before the New Book, being competitive isn't always about having the best save...) is a very large leap. Are you saying High Elves are a terrible book and only have these options as good, or are you trying to say other cut throat lists would beat them unless they play this specific build? Because they are not the same thing, some units are inherently bad (E.G Gutter Runners) and i cannot think of a single High Elf unit that is that bad, although, of course, as i have never participated in any large scale tournaments, my opinions are invalid here of course...

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


The Demon Book is pretty good. You just have to think when you're going up against High Elves. Or, and this is just a suggestion, don't throw your entire army at the unit with the Banner.

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

I don't understand the bits underlined, in one part you are saying that Daemons should stop moaning and learn how to handle the banner block using their army, E.G think about their army build, then the next line down you are saying that High Elves don't have to think about there army build because they *NEED* this one item and they *NEED* Frost Phoenix's. This is a very hypocritical way to think about it isn't it? That Daemons need to L2P and avoid this massive block (Which usually contains a good 500pts at least of an army, limiting the amount of VP's scored) and have to think about there list when coming up against High Elves, then to say that High Elves need to do this certain list or they are ''unplayable'' competitively (I call BS on that, as a competitive Wood Elf player since before the New Book, being competitive isn't always about having the best save...) is a very large leap. Are you saying High Elves are a terrible book and only have these options as good, or are you trying to say other cut throat lists would beat them unless they play this specific build? Because they are not the same thing, some units are inherently bad (E.G Gutter Runners) and i cannot think of a single High Elf unit that is that bad, although, of course, as i have never participated in any large scale tournaments, my opinions are invalid here of course...

I'm saying that High Elves are a bad book, with amazing elements. Which are items like the Banner and Frosties. However, compare them to other books, and you'll notice how narrow the competitive options are. They can't even run the full fast cav list.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


The Demon Book is pretty good. You just have to think when you're going up against High Elves. Or, and this is just a suggestion, don't throw your entire army at the unit with the Banner.

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

I don't understand the bits underlined, in one part you are saying that Daemons should stop moaning and learn how to handle the banner block using their army, E.G think about their army build, then the next line down you are saying that High Elves don't have to think about there army build because they *NEED* this one item and they *NEED* Frost Phoenix's. This is a very hypocritical way to think about it isn't it? That Daemons need to L2P and avoid this massive block (Which usually contains a good 500pts at least of an army, limiting the amount of VP's scored) and have to think about there list when coming up against High Elves, then to say that High Elves need to do this certain list or they are ''unplayable'' competitively (I call BS on that, as a competitive Wood Elf player since before the New Book, being competitive isn't always about having the best save...) is a very large leap. Are you saying High Elves are a terrible book and only have these options as good, or are you trying to say other cut throat lists would beat them unless they play this specific build? Because they are not the same thing, some units are inherently bad (E.G Gutter Runners) and i cannot think of a single High Elf unit that is that bad, although, of course, as i have never participated in any large scale tournaments, my opinions are invalid here of course...

I'm saying that High Elves are a bad book, with amazing elements. Which are items like the Banner and Frosties. However, compare them to other books, and you'll notice how narrow the competitive options are. They can't even run the full fast cav list.

Not sure if serious, or just trolling...

But then, I'd hazard a guess that you think the new DoC book is well balanced near-perfection.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


The Demon Book is pretty good. You just have to think when you're going up against High Elves. Or, and this is just a suggestion, don't throw your entire army at the unit with the Banner.

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

I don't understand the bits underlined, in one part you are saying that Daemons should stop moaning and learn how to handle the banner block using their army, E.G think about their army build, then the next line down you are saying that High Elves don't have to think about there army build because they *NEED* this one item and they *NEED* Frost Phoenix's. This is a very hypocritical way to think about it isn't it? That Daemons need to L2P and avoid this massive block (Which usually contains a good 500pts at least of an army, limiting the amount of VP's scored) and have to think about there list when coming up against High Elves, then to say that High Elves need to do this certain list or they are ''unplayable'' competitively (I call BS on that, as a competitive Wood Elf player since before the New Book, being competitive isn't always about having the best save...) is a very large leap. Are you saying High Elves are a terrible book and only have these options as good, or are you trying to say other cut throat lists would beat them unless they play this specific build? Because they are not the same thing, some units are inherently bad (E.G Gutter Runners) and i cannot think of a single High Elf unit that is that bad, although, of course, as i have never participated in any large scale tournaments, my opinions are invalid here of course...

I'm saying that High Elves are a bad book, with amazing elements. Which are items like the Banner and Frosties. However, compare them to other books, and you'll notice how narrow the competitive options are. They can't even run the full fast cav list.

Not sure if serious, or just trolling...

But then, I'd hazard a guess that you think the new DoC book is well balanced near-perfection.

I never said that.

But, answer me this. How often do you see lists outside of the double phoenix White Lion Banner unit, the Alarielle Light Coven, or the Princebus. Because, I've never seen ANY list in the new book that doesn't use them. The last one can get by without phoenixes, but that's it. If a book shoots itself in the foot without certain elements, it's a bad book. Especially if you compare it to Dark and Wood Elves. Which are actually very good books.

The fact is, that the High elf book isn't that well written. Elven steeds in the book aren't actually fast cav. Core is bland. Special is Meh, apart from three choices. Rare has two options worth taking. The book basically means that 600 points of your army will, more often than not, not contribute to the game, unless your entire core is made of reavers. When the book first came out, it was meh. And when Dark Elves came out, they just made it utterly redundant. There is nothing the High Elf book does, that the other two won't do better.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
But, answer me this. How often do you see lists outside of the double phoenix White Lion Banner unit, the Alarielle Light Coven, or the Princebus.

Players are really smart. I'm continually amazed at the power of group thought. Especially thanks to the internet.

People play the BEST combinations. That doesn't mean the non-best is bad. It means the best is best. If you have the choice of an overpowered item with no side-effects that makes you essentially immune to one army and incredibly strong against all the rest, you're going to take it. Unless you simply want to play fluff or want to give the enemy a chance.

Ogres don't have to take Ironblasters. Empire don't have to take Stanks. Dwarfs don't have to take Gyrocopters. Skaven don't have to take warp lightning cannons. etc

But you will see them in most competitive armies above a certain point level. It's clear when stuff is...good. But an ironblaster doesn't shut down an entire WHFB army no matter what you take.

People used to take Teclis and book of hoeth and whatever else and be like +3PD with no miscasts and they would say you just need to use strategy. And HE suck without him. But that was clearly not true. They just recognized OP combinations and took them. It's what people do in competitive games. Whether you consider WHFB a super competitive game is another story and whether you should go TFG on every rule and item and strategy. You certainly can. But the game makes it clear in its very earliest pages it wasn't designed for that.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
But, answer me this. How often do you see lists outside of the double phoenix White Lion Banner unit, the Alarielle Light Coven, or the Princebus.

Players are really smart. I'm continually amazed at the power of group thought. Especially thanks to the internet.

People play the BEST combinations. That doesn't mean the non-best is bad. It means the best is best. If you have the choice of an overpowered item with no side-effects that makes you essentially immune to one army and incredibly strong against all the rest, you're going to take it. Unless you simply want to play fluff or want to give the enemy a chance.

Ogres don't have to take Ironblasters. Empire don't have to take Stanks. Dwarfs don't have to take Gyrocopters. Skaven don't have to take warp lightning cannons. etc

But you will see them in most competitive armies above a certain point level. It's clear when stuff is...good. But an ironblaster doesn't shut down an entire WHFB army no matter what you take.

People used to take Teclis and book of hoeth and whatever else and be like +3PD with no miscasts and they would say you just need to use strategy. And HE suck without him. But that was clearly not true. They just recognized OP combinations and took them. It's what people do in competitive games. Whether you consider WHFB a super competitive game is another story and whether you should go TFG on every rule and item and strategy. You certainly can. But the game makes it clear in its very earliest pages it wasn't designed for that.

You miss my point entirely. The reason people take those choices is that, for them to do well, against other armies designed to work at the same level, they get shoehorned into a set list style. You don't see people taking hordes of 30+ Swordsmasters to the same type of event people take any Dark Elf list to. Because doing so is effectively shooting yourself in the feet. The book itself is underwhelming, bar a few characters, items and units. If you look at a book like Empire, Warriors, or Dark Elves, you'll immediately notice a difference. Those three latter books are well written, with each choice being useful and well rounded. Which is something that the high elf book doesn't have. That is why the book is subpar. Not because of the items, the monsters, the characters or even the fact that they're the only elf book without fast cav characters. The fact that they are less than effective as a whole.

I understood your point. I dismissed it because it's not true. People said the exact same thing about old Teclis. They said the exact same thing about old Bloodletters and loremaster Heralds. TK are underwhelming. O&G are underwhelming. But they still do okay without having an item that is absurdly OP.

If you want to do the pepsi challenge, get a decent HE player using BOTWD and play them with a DoC army and post the battle report. It's very clear that you state there shouldn't be a problem. Just proxy it all or use a GW set. You'd be doing the community a service, because after 3 pages or so, there seem to be very few people who know definitive ways to thump HE banner. But you seem to have it under control.

Oh do tell how my Forsaken and Helstriders have suddenly become useful and well rounded, because personally I'd LOVE to use these lovely models but they are completely useless. Especially against High Elves! A unit of Helstriders charges into *any* unit of Elves, they will be butchered to the man, or shot to pincushions before they get there.

What is wrong with Archers as Core? I main Wood Elves and you will find a good 300pts of my core is dedicated to Glade Guard, and while Glade Guard get all these fancy arrows, we also cost 6 points more then a High Elf Archer. Glade Riders are comparable to Reavers, and Eternal Guard may beat Spearment but stick them against Phoenix Guard and they don't stand a chance at equal points. I refuse to believe High Elves are ''unplayable'' without those choices, have you even read the Beast Man codex? Tomb Kings? Even in the strictest of minds High Elves rank roughly in the middle of the power tier, but if that isn't good enough for you so that you *have* to cling to OP Items to make your game then i doubt your playing the right army.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Oh do tell how my Forsaken and Helstriders have suddenly become useful and well rounded, because personally I'd LOVE to use these lovely models but they are completely useless. Especially against High Elves! A unit of Helstriders charges into *any* unit of Elves, they will be butchered to the man, or shot to pincushions before they get there.

What is wrong with Archers as Core? I main Wood Elves and you will find a good 300pts of my core is dedicated to Glade Guard, and while Glade Guard get all these fancy arrows, we also cost 6 points more then a High Elf Archer. Glade Riders are comparable to Reavers, and Eternal Guard may beat Spearment but stick them against Phoenix Guard and they don't stand a chance at equal points. I refuse to believe High Elves are ''unplayable'' without those choices, have you even read the Beast Man codex? Tomb Kings? Even in the strictest of minds High Elves rank roughly in the middle of the power tier, but if that isn't good enough for you so that you *have* to cling to OP Items to make your game then i doubt your playing the right army.

High Elves don't routinely roflstomp "Tournaments" because they're not an army that has the ability to earn reliable 20-0 victories like WoC, Ogres or 'The List' from DoC do, therefore they must be the absolute suck and require shoehorning into a specific set of units/items to even compete.

Who cares that HE's are up there alongside VC's & Empire as the overall well rounded/balanced across the board books of 8th ed, where almost every choice is readily playable. (Tiranoc Chariots come to mind as pretty awful, while Seaguard are slightly overcosted & Spears are just plain bad across every book this edition)

Apparently for some that's not nearly good enough though, so poor Daemon players get to keep on eating the High Elves giant poop buffet because we apparently 'deserve it.'

Look The HE book is well balanced outside of BoTWD. Have you ever seen a phoenix solo an army? But to say we are worse than Most anyone is absurd. Also I run a Ellyrion list to great effect so yes we can run all-cav.

Currently the power ranking looks something like this IMHO

1st Teir
WOC, Skaven
2nd Tier
High Elves, Dark Elves, Dwarfs, Ogres, Wood Elves, DOC
3rd Tier
Empire, Vampires, Brettonians
4th Tier
Orcs and Goblins, Lizards
5th Tier
Beastmen Tomb Kings

The fact is High Elves are mobile and tank better than the other elven races. Add to this highly specialized Elite Infantry, Good Fast Cav, Core 2+ heavy cav, Frost birds, bolters, and Book of Hoeth. You have a very well rounded army.

BoTWD Tilts the scales MASSIVELY against WoC, Skaven, VC, TK. It neuters demons. Also it effects Empire, Dwarves wood elves.

The ability to ignore damage from wards and magical attacks with a 2++ ward is too big especially when we can make a 3++ ward without it.

Also if you play against demons just change the banner out for something less contentious( usually i go for ranger standard).

Let's not even get started on tiers, yeah? No one agrees on them (Skaven better than Dark Elves and High Elves? Not in my experience, and not by a mile), and they're all so close anyway. It's not like 7th edition, where Daemons, Vampires, and Dark Elves were so far above everyone else.

I think we can agree my poor Beastmen aren't on the same tier as Skaven, High Elves or Lizards. :(

 streamdragon wrote:
I think we can agree my poor Beastmen aren't on the same tier as Skaven, High Elves or Lizards. :(

Beastmen are on their own special tier, located somewhere close to Brettonia's tier.

Beastmen are a pretty significant outlier, yeah. And Tomb Kings. Brettonia is an old book, but I see them do really well at tournaments. And only one real build. But whatever.

Orcs & Goblins are a perfect example, though. They're not an amazing army by any means, but they don't perform that much worse than, say, High Elves or Warriors of Chaos overall.
8th edition was a fantastic equalizer.
...except for Beastmen. And Tomb Kings.

Anyway. Yeah. High Elves certainly have units/characters/items that are better than the rest of the book. But that does not mean that the rest of the book is terrible.
Let's say a unit with a good balance of cost and performance is a 5 out of 10. White Lions and Frost Phoenii are 6's. Aaand the Banner is a 10. No-brainer. Worst case scenario, it's "only" MR5 against magic missiles and direct damage spells for 50pts.

Warpsolution wrote:
Let's not even get started on tiers, yeah? No one agrees on them (Skaven better than Dark Elves and High Elves? Not in my experience, and not by a mile), and they're all so close anyway. It's not like 7th edition, where Daemons, Vampires, and Dark Elves were so far above everyone else.

Fair enough.

the point even if you look at my personal opinion there are a bunch of pretty good books and The high elf book is one of em. Heck the only bad units are tiranoc chariot and flamespyre phoenix and they can be used even at that.

Warpsolution wrote:
Anyway. Yeah. High Elves certainly have units/characters/items that are better than the rest of the book. But that does not mean that the rest of the book is terrible.
Let's say a unit with a good balance of cost and performance is a 5 out of 10. White Lions and Frost Phoenii are 6's. Aaand the Banner is a 10. No-brainer. Worst case scenario, it's "only" MR5 against magic missiles and direct damage spells for 50pts.

I will happily concede that it's the best written elf book. But that in no way means that it's any good. It's meh. Average, middle of the road. On par with books like OnG and TK.

If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered. As much as I hate the ETC environment, I'm going to use it as an example. There were 25 high elf players. All of which took the banner. 20 of which took frosthearts. If the book was as good as, say, the other elf books, you'd get more variety. Because out of those 25 lists, you have a choice of white lion banner unit, or cav bannerbus. Which was my entire point. The book shoehorns you into those kind of lists, unless you're a certain person who runs 4 Frosthearts.

I'm not arguing that the banner is bent, just that it brings the high elf book to a level where the infantry can get to the centre of the board and do what they need to, whilst keeping the level 4 at a point where they can do they need to.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
Anyway. Yeah. High Elves certainly have units/characters/items that are better than the rest of the book. But that does not mean that the rest of the book is terrible.
Let's say a unit with a good balance of cost and performance is a 5 out of 10. White Lions and Frost Phoenii are 6's. Aaand the Banner is a 10. No-brainer. Worst case scenario, it's "only" MR5 against magic missiles and direct damage spells for 50pts.

I will happily concede that it's the best written elf book. But that in no way means that it's any good. It's meh. Average, middle of the road. On par with books like OnG and TK.

If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered. As much as I hate the ETC environment, I'm going to use it as an example. There were 25 high elf players. All of which took the banner. 20 of which took frosthearts. If the book was as good as, say, the other elf books, you'd get more variety. Because out of those 25 lists, you have a choice of white lion banner unit, or cav bannerbus. Which was my entire point. The book shoehorns you into those kind of lists, unless you're a certain person who runs 4 Frosthearts.

I'm not arguing that the banner is bent, just that it brings the high elf book to a level where the infantry can get to the centre of the board and do what they need to, whilst keeping the level 4 at a point where they can do they need to.

And there are a number of High Elf players, especially over on the HE forums who don't use the Banner at all, despite the cries of "it's mandatory for us to even stand a semblance of a chance!"
MSU armies, or Phoenix Guard/DP armies don't rely on that crutch and those armies work fine. (PG armies especially so, as it's so easy to give them a 3++) Back them up with the staples of Reavers, Bolters, a smattering of Archers, Sisters, Frostie, etc... and those forces do the job.

The Banner has simply made a goodly number of HE players both lazy and obnoxious, in the same way that Grey Knights made so many players lazy in 5th, or how the previous DoC book make players lazy through Master of Sorcery Tzheralds + 'Letter brick = profit?!

Saldiven wrote:Beastmen are on their own special tier, located somewhere close to Brettonia's tier.

Who?

Warpsolution wrote:Beastmen are a pretty significant outlier, yeah. And Tomb Kings. Brettonia is an old book, but I see them do really well at tournaments. And only one real build. But whatever.

Orcs & Goblins are a perfect example, though. They're not an amazing army by any means, but they don't perform that much worse than, say, High Elves or Warriors of Chaos overall.
8th edition was a fantastic equalizer.
...except for Beastmen. And Tomb Kings.

I still <3 my beastmen though. Blenderbulls are always hilarious. I'm afraid I'm not familar enough with O&G to say, but are they really on par with High Elves (who just seem so superbly effective in every phase) or Warriors (who are just tough as nails)? I have a friend I haven't seen in ages who plays them, so I'm curious what units he should/would be looking to field if we ever played again.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered.

This whole line of thinking is a logical fallacy. The Banner and the Phoenii don't make the book playable. They're just so easily auto-included awesomesauce that, without them, the book feels a lot lighter. And it is. Without them, the book is where it should be.
If you want even the tiniest chance to prove your point, put up a battle report or two, in which you don't take the Banner, and get mercilessly crushed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:
I'm not familar enough with O&G to say, but are they really on par with High Elves (who just seem so superbly effective in every phase) or Warriors (who are just tough as nails)? I have a friend I haven't seen in ages who plays them, so I'm curious what units he should/would be looking to field if we ever played again.

O&G are not on par with High Elves or Warriors of Chaos. They are distinctly below them. But the difference between a crap 8th edition book and an incredible one is a lot smaller than it used to be. That's my point.

Most O&G players bring the Big 'Un Savagestar with a Shaman to carry the Shrunken Head. Then it's killer chaff (Manglers and Wolf Chariots) and war machines. Sprinkle in Night Goblins, Wolf Riders, Squig Herds, and Trolls to taste.

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered.

This whole line of thinking is a logical fallacy. The Banner and the Phoenii don't make the book playable. They're just so easily auto-included awesomesauce that, without them, the book feels a lot lighter. And it is. Without them, the book is where it should be.
If you want even the tiniest chance to prove your point, put up a battle report or two, in which you don't take the Banner, and get mercilessly crushed.

Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Excuse us if we do not instantly believe such an anecdote. So i will employ the same tactic i would on the many web chat rooms and say ''Pics or GTFO''.

then again, any army can beat any army with some good dice. Last edition Wood Elves were considered amongst the worst army and Daemons the best, but i can claim a few wins against Daemons. So maybe you are telling it true, but if you are honestly comparing the High Elf book without Banner to the Beastman book in normal circumstances then i am forced to seriously doubt your judgement.

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered.

This whole line of thinking is a logical fallacy. The Banner and the Phoenii don't make the book playable. They're just so easily auto-included awesomesauce that, without them, the book feels a lot lighter.

^This. And it's what I said earlier. When people see something is OP, they include it. Especially in a tournament that is specifically a...tournament. It's a competitive environment.

Again, in 7th DoC Every Single Army had Bloodletters. Because they were that good. It wasn't that the book fell to pieces without them (they got a huge nerf in 8th and are still playable). It's just that when GW hands you a bazooka for a squirt gun fight, you use the bazooka.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered.

This whole line of thinking is a logical fallacy. The Banner and the Phoenii don't make the book playable. They're just so easily auto-included awesomesauce that, without them, the book feels a lot lighter. And it is. Without them, the book is where it should be.
If you want even the tiniest chance to prove your point, put up a battle report or two, in which you don't take the Banner, and get mercilessly crushed.

Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Ok, here it is.

Comments like this, and the "reasoning" behind them, is why I've just put you on ignore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DukeRustfield wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered.

This whole line of thinking is a logical fallacy. The Banner and the Phoenii don't make the book playable. They're just so easily auto-included awesomesauce that, without them, the book feels a lot lighter.

^This. And it's what I said earlier. When people see something is OP, they include it. Especially in a tournament that is specifically a...tournament. It's a competitive environment.

Again, in 7th DoC Every Single Army had Bloodletters. Because they were that good. It wasn't that the book fell to pieces without them (they got a huge nerf in 8th and are still playable). It's just that when GW hands you a bazooka for a squirt gun fight, you use the bazooka.

And it's the same reason that every army in the current DoC book uses Beasts of Nurgle and Skull Cannons. This doesn't change the fact that some people have won or placed highly in some pretty big tournaments with mono-slaneesh and mono-tzeentch.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Really, now. That's something I'd like to hear about. But it doesn't even begin to prove your point, since that army doesn't rely on magic attacks. If you tabled them without it, you could have tabled them with it.

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Really, now. That's something I'd like to hear about. But it doesn't even begin to prove your point, since that army doesn't rely on magic attacks. If you tabled them without it, you could have tabled them with it.

It's not so much the magical attacks, but I tabled high elves with ungor.

But if you want something with magical attacks; I broke a Banner of the World Dragon Bus in combat with Daemons. Drones in the side, Beasts and Chicken in the front, and Plaguebearers in the other side.

Warpsolution wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
I'm not familar enough with O&G to say, but are they really on par with High Elves (who just seem so superbly effective in every phase) or Warriors (who are just tough as nails)? I have a friend I haven't seen in ages who plays them, so I'm curious what units he should/would be looking to field if we ever played again.

O&G are not on par with High Elves or Warriors of Chaos. They are distinctly below them. But the difference between a crap 8th edition book and an incredible one is a lot smaller than it used to be. That's my point.

Most O&G players bring the Big 'Un Savagestar with a Shaman to carry the Shrunken Head. Then it's killer chaff (Manglers and Wolf Chariots) and war machines. Sprinkle in Night Goblins, Wolf Riders, Squig Herds, and Trolls to taste.

Ah, fair enough, I think I misunderstood your original post. I definitely do agree that the books are decently close, and honestly even Beastmen aren't as bad as I joke about them being. I gave our Lizardman player a run for his money with a Doomblender and double mino block list. Doombulls are pretty nasty...

I mean, I still lost, but not as badly as I expected to.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Really, now. That's something I'd like to hear about. But it doesn't even begin to prove your point, since that army doesn't rely on magic attacks. If you tabled them without it, you could have tabled them with it.

It's not so much the magical attacks, but I tabled high elves with ungor.

But if you want something with magical attacks; I broke a Banner of the World Dragon Bus in combat with Daemons. Drones in the side, Beasts and Chicken in the front, and Plaguebearers in the other side.

So against really bad players, the BotWD can be dealt with? That isn't saying much.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Really, now. That's something I'd like to hear about. But it doesn't even begin to prove your point, since that army doesn't rely on magic attacks. If you tabled them without it, you could have tabled them with it.

It's not so much the magical attacks, but I tabled high elves with ungor.

But if you want something with magical attacks; I broke a Banner of the World Dragon Bus in combat with Daemons. Drones in the side, Beasts and Chicken in the front, and Plaguebearers in the other side.

So against really bad players, the BotWD can be dealt with? That isn't saying much.

This was at a competitive event. High end tables.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Really, now. That's something I'd like to hear about. But it doesn't even begin to prove your point, since that army doesn't rely on magic attacks. If you tabled them without it, you could have tabled them with it.

It's not so much the magical attacks, but I tabled high elves with ungor.

But if you want something with magical attacks; I broke a Banner of the World Dragon Bus in combat with Daemons. Drones in the side, Beasts and Chicken in the front, and Plaguebearers in the other side.

So against really bad players, the BotWD can be dealt with? That isn't saying much.

This was at a competitive event. High end tables.

Then what were you doing their?

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Really, now. That's something I'd like to hear about. But it doesn't even begin to prove your point, since that army doesn't rely on magic attacks. If you tabled them without it, you could have tabled them with it.

It's not so much the magical attacks, but I tabled high elves with ungor.

But if you want something with magical attacks; I broke a Banner of the World Dragon Bus in combat with Daemons. Drones in the side, Beasts and Chicken in the front, and Plaguebearers in the other side.

So against really bad players, the BotWD can be dealt with? That isn't saying much.

Even with the scenario that TDA postulates, the likelihood of breaking the unit is microscopic. The HE player would have had to both fluff his attacks and fluff his ward saves. Even if the DoC player charges, with rear and flank units, the static combat resolution from the target unit should equal that of the charging units. Then it comes down to who does more wounds. If the BotWD unit in this case were in the unit of common choice, White Lions, the HE player should still have won combat.

And despite that, the DoC player had to dedicate some 40-50% of his entire army's points to attack at most 25% of his opponent's army's points, and the opponent had to be such an incredibly bad player that he allowed said unit to be attacked from three sides at once.

Sometimes I wonder if TDA even plays this game at all.

The banner? What banner? The banner can be just avoided until you consume everything else. Pardon me for my wording, I play Tyranids (warhammer 40k) and I like to eat stuff.

@ Experiment 626: You must have some really thoughtless people at your store, if during fun games HE's break out the banner on your Tzeentch army. Sorry you have that experience. (Unless every time you bring Kairos and take as many Elf-murder spells as you can.)

@ Thread: I'm not quite sure I buy the thought that the HE army is doomed without a Banner. It's probably 50 points under cost, solely because of the save vs. Magic Weapons.

However.

Food for thought.

- Ogre Banner allows you to move the spell away on a 2+ and power dice are wasted. It's about as good vs spells but no one complains.

- If BotWD is 50pts under cost, how undercost are Beasts of Nurgle and Skill Cannons? I think a guy bringing 8-12 Beasts in a list + 2 Cannons is every bit as much or more of a TFG than the BotWD star in a friendly game that asked for non-hard lists.

- I've been to 3 cons this year and not once seen Allarielle played at a tournament. I think that experience is local to your meta, 626

- A HE player who brings BotWD to a tournament or con is not exploiting a crutch, bad, skill-less, etc. He is bringing his best banner to help win. It's part of his book. People bring their best stuff to those things, don't be a jerk and belittle them or tanks their sports score if they are only trying for best chance to win.

-

"Glade Riders are comparable to Reavers, "

<- That isn't quite true. Glade riders come with spears, can ambush, and take arrows that make Ambush worthwhile because they can poison down/*fire enemies from behind. Reavers are nothing compared to Glade Riders. Mandatory ambush isnt that bad for what they get access to.

To be fair Runemaw (the ogre banner) is BSB only.


Reavers can have bows, spears and a 5++ save.

True.

If BotWD was 60 points and BSB only I'd call it balanced. That HE BSB would be one squishy dude.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
It's not so much the magical attacks

It is too about the magical attacks! How is it not? We're saying the Banner is too good. You're saying it isn't. And you offer proof as to why it's not...by telling us about a time when it's presence didn't matter at all?

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I broke a Banner of the World Dragon Bus in combat with Daemons. Drones in the side, Beasts and Chicken in the front, and Plaguebearers in the other side.

So that's like, what...38 wounds before Wards, on average? I don't know the Daemon book very well, honestly, so I'm assuming you had 5 Drones in contact, with 3 attacks+stomp+rider each, that you had 2 ranks of 3 Beasts, with 4 attacks+stomp each, that the LoC had 5 attacks+stomp, and that you had a horde of 30 'bearers, all in contact.
So that's...we'll say 7 wounds, to be generous.
And I'm pretty sure it's impossible to have that many Daemons in contact with them all at once anyway, but whatever.

Then the 'lions swing back for...11.5, after saves? And that's assuming that you're at a -1 to hit the Drones and the Beasts, and that you don't get re-rolls against the LoC.
Pretty sure I've been overly generous to the Daemon player, here, and they still come out solidly behind.
And then they'd have to roll bad again to fail their Stubborn break test.

I'm not saying it didn't happen. Just that it is absolutely worthless as proof that the Banner isn't awesome-sauce.

lliu wrote:
The banner? What banner? The banner can be just avoided until you consume everything else.

That's been a popular comment. But the counter is, Daemons are bad at the chaff-game, where High Elves are among the best.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
A HE player who brings BotWD to a tournament or con is not exploiting a crutch, bad, skill-less, etc. He is bringing his best banner to help win. It's part of his book. People bring their best stuff to those things, don't be a jerk and belittle them or tanks their sports score if they are only trying for best chance to win.

Agreed. Stop hating on the community who was given some seriously stupid tools. Hate on the guy who made the tool. And the individuals in that community who take all of this with poor grace and gloat over their opponents, claim it's totes fair, etc.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

- If BotWD is 50pts under cost, how undercost are Beasts of Nurgle and Skill Cannons? I think a guy bringing 8-12 Beasts in a list + 2 Cannons is every bit as much or more of a TFG than the BotWD star in a friendly game that asked for non-hard lists.

Skull Cannons should probably be in the 150-175 points range. (A 20-40% cost increase.)

Beasts should be in the 80 points range, I would think; that's a 33% increase in their current cost, if memory serves.

But, honestly, points values are totally messed up in the DoC book across the board. The current iteration of the Bloodletter shouldn't be more than 12 points. Bloodcrushers are probably 5-10 points over-priced. There are other examples (like just about all the Slanesh chariots), but those are the ones that jump out at me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thunderfrog wrote:
True.

If BotWD was 60 points and BSB only I'd call it balanced. That HE BSB would be one squishy dude.

I've been saying this exact same thing since the HE book came out. The only reason the BotWD is overpowered is because it can be taken as a unit upgrade. If it were BSB only, it would still be powerful and effective, but an army like DoC would actually have a chance to kill the unit by directing attacks at the BSB and hoping to get through the 2++ a couple of times (still hard to do, but not the same thing as having to get through the 2++ thirty-plus times).

 Thunderfrog wrote:
If BotWD was 60 points and BSB only I'd call it balanced. That HE BSB would be one squishy dude.

You could call it balanced, but it wouldn't be balanced. The Runemaw works vs. Magic Missiles and DD that specifically target the unit, i.e., not template DD. IF it works, the caster shrugs and targets someone else. Big deal. Those are gigantic differences. They aren't even worth mentioning together. Near total immunity vs. magic weapons (heroes/lords likely), an entire race, parts of other races, DD, Magic Missiles, all on a non-BSB. And it even gives dragons stubborn just to lol in your face.

- A HE player who brings BotWD to a tournament or con is not exploiting a crutch, bad, skill-less, etc. He is bringing his best banner to help win. It's part of his book. People bring their best stuff to those things, don't be a jerk and belittle them or tanks their sports score if they are only trying for best chance to win.

TFGs are TFGs. Read page 3. That is, THREE. In the BRB. The BRB is the definitive book for WHFB play. You can't play your TFG game without getting past page 3. You read it at some point. Read the Spirit of the Game section again.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
@ Experiment 626: You must have some really thoughtless people at your store, if during fun games HE's break out the banner on your Tzeentch army. Sorry you have that experience. (Unless every time you bring Kairos and take as many Elf-murder spells as you can.)

Well, yes, most of the local HE players are whiney girls who try to argue that HE's are near impotent without the banner, or else are the type who'll only ever play the most optimal combos.
DoC have become a non-factor at my LGS, as HE's are aplenty, as well as Dark Elves and a couple new Wood Elves. It's a bad time overall to be a Daemon player as Elves of all flavours tend to have a big leg-up on the current DoC book.

For the record, I don't use Kairos as I find mono Tzeentch is the worst possible list to take him in. His supports either offer almost nothing that can't already be gotten, (Final Trans & Gateway are often enough vs. non BotWD opponents), and elf heavy metas especially have fun murdering his physically weak @$$ with all their shooting!
Mono Tzeentch needs beatsticks more than it needs yet another wizard, and the E.Blade LoC amply provides!

 Thunderfrog wrote:
@ Thread: I'm not quite sure I buy the thought that the HE army is doomed without a Banner. It's probably 50 points under cost, solely because of the save vs. Magic Weapons.

I think 75pts would be just about right. A Dragon Prince deathstar would still be possible, but DP's with a 2++ vs. all magical damage is more or less just pure frustrating than the absolute unit blender White Lions are. Even Daemons can hold up a DP bus as it's damage output for the most part is tied entirely to its charge and the likes of an Ogre Blade/great weapon/halberd Character(s). Otherwise you need 1-2+ castings of Wyssan's to keep reliably rolling the enemy.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
However.

Food for thought.

- Ogre Banner allows you to move the spell away on a 2+ and power dice are wasted. It's about as good vs spells but no one complains.

People do complain about Runemaw, but the fact is;
1. You can still pound the crap out of the unit in shooting/combat. Flanking it, or in the case of Daemons, say charging a big unit of 8-10 Hounds up their bums is still doable.
2. The one spell Ogres fear the most ignores the Runemaw's protection.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
- If BotWD is 50pts under cost, how undercost are Beasts of Nurgle and Skill Cannons? I think a guy bringing 8-12 Beasts in a list + 2 Cannons is every bit as much or more of a TFG than the BotWD star in a friendly game that asked for non-hard lists.

Beasts should easily be at least 75-80pts per. Most Daemon players would still take them even if they were still the same 100pts/model they were in the last book. (though 100pts each would be slightly overcosted...)
Khannons should probably be 165-180pts. Still a little cheap at the 165-170 range, but keep in mind these guys almost never get the benefits of the General's IP or BSB, while the harshest of the 4 God storms rips the thing to shreds when it connects.

But keep in mind that the same book that gives us woefully undercosted Beasts & Khannons also gives us woeful crap like Bloodletters, Bloodcrushers, Flamers & the Hellflayer/Exalted Seeker chariots!
BotWD on the other hand is a frankly game breaking item in a book full of already solid choices.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
- I've been to 3 cons this year and not once seen Allarielle played at a tournament. I think that experience is local to your meta, 626

Alarielle is like Horrors - only those who've given them a shot really (ab)use them. Look at how almost no comps hit Horrors yet, but savagely go after pretty much all Nurgle builds. Plus, there's still a number of events which still ban named characters.

Everqueen lists tend to be gunliney Light Covens, or else you run Alith to give your deathstar Swiftstride plus a safer Ld10 General.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
- A HE player who brings BotWD to a tournament or con is not exploiting a crutch, bad, skill-less, etc. He is bringing his best banner to help win. It's part of his book. People bring their best stuff to those things, don't be a jerk and belittle them or tanks their sports score if they are only trying for best chance to win.

No, you're still using your crutch.
In a 'Tournament' setting however, it's all about taking the biggest crutches/no-brainers as those give you the most reliable odds of winning. When everyone is playing a version of 'Crutchhammer', then complaints should be at a minimum, whether it's High Elves and their Bannerstars, or DoC with Caco Choir/Beast spam, or Runemaw Gutstars + double Ironblaster, or whatever the filth of choice is.

BotWD is still a huge throat jab to Daemons, even in Tournament settings, but most Daemon players in such an environment almost certainly expect it, and thus the majority of DoC Tournament lists are in fact built first and foremost as BotWD counter-lists.